Datasets:

gtfintechlab
/

CoCoHD_transcripts

	<html>
	<title> - RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19</title>
	<body><pre>
	[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
	[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


	RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE
	OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19

	=======================================================================

	HEARING

	BEFORE THE

	SUBCOMMITTEE ON
	HIGHER EDUCATION AND
	WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

	OF THE

	COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
	U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

	ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

	FIRST SESSION

	__________

	HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, MARCH 17, 2021

	__________

	Serial No. 117-2

	__________

	Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor

	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	Available via: edlabor.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov

	__________


	U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
	43-870 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022

	-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR

	ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

	RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina,
	JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut Ranking Member
	GREGORIO KILILI CAMACHO SABLAN, JOE WILSON, South Carolina
	Northern Mariana Islands GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania
	FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida TIM WALBERG, Michigan
	SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
	MARK TAKANO, California ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
	ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia
	MARK De SAULNIER, California JIM BANKS, Indiana
	DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey JAMES COMER, Kentucky
	PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
	JOSEPH D. MORELLE, New York FRED KELLER, Pennsylvania
	SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
	LUCY Mc BATH, Georgia MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
	JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut BURGESS OWENS, Utah
	ANDY LEVIN, Michigan BOB GOOD, Virginia
	ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
	HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
	TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico MARY E. MILLER, Illinois
	MONDAIRE JONES, New York VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
	KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
	FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana MADISON CAWTHORN, North Carolina
	JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York, Vice-Chair MICHELLE STEEL, California
	MARK POCAN, Wisconsin Vacancy
	JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas Vacancy
	MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey
	JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
	ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
	KWEISI MFUME, Maryland

	Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
	Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff Director
	------

	SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

	FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida, Chairwoman

	MARK TAKANO, California GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
	PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington Ranking Member
	ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
	TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
	MONDAIRE JONES, New York JIM BANKS, Indiana
	KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina JAMES COMER, Kentucky
	JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
	MARK POCAN, Wisconsin MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
	JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas BOB GOOD, Virginia
	MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
	ARIANO ESPAILLAT, New York DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
	RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
	JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut Vacancy
	SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina (ex
	ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia officio)
	(ex officio)

	C O N T E N T S

	----------
	Page

	Hearing held on March 17, 2021................................... 1

	Statement of Members:
	Wilson, Hon. Frederica S., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
	Education and Workforce Investment......................... 1
	Prepared statement of.................................... 5
	Murphy, Hon. Gregory F., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
	Education and Workforce Investment......................... 6
	Prepared statement of.................................... 8

	Statement of Witnesses:
	Burke, Lindsey M., Ph.D., Director, Center for Education
	Policy, and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education, The
	Heritage Foundation, Washington, DC........................ 19
	Prepared statement of.................................... 22
	Oakley, Eloy Ortiz, Chancellor, California Community
	Colleges,
	Sacramento, CA............................................. 14
	Prepared statement of.................................... 17
	Thornton, Keith, Student, Florida International University,
	Miami, FL.................................................. 11
	Prepared statement of.................................... 13
	Zibel, Daniel A., Vice President and Chief Counsel, National
	Student Legal Defense Network, Washington, DC.............. 29
	Prepared statement of.................................... 31

	Additional Submissions:
	Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from the
	State of Oregon:
	Report dated May 19, 2020 from the Brookings Institution,

	``Commercials for College? Advertising in Higher
	Education''............................................ 86
	Jones, Hon. Mondaire, a Representative in Congress from the
	State of New York:
	Report dated October, 2020 from National Student Legal
	Defense, ``Protection and the Unseen: Holding
	Executives Personally Liable under the Higher Eduction
	Act''.................................................. 109
	Leger Fernandez, Hon. Teresa, a Representative in Congress
	from the State of New Mexico:
	Article dated March 16, 2021 from the Santa Fe Reporter:
	New Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity''..... 106
	Link: GAO Report 19-95 dated December 21, 2018, ``FOOD
	INSECURITY: Better Information Could Help Eligible
	College
	Students Access Federal Food Assistance Benefits''..... 108
	Omar, Hon. Ilhan, a Representative in Congress from the State
	of
	Minnesota:
	Link: GAO Report 19-522 dated August 19, 2020, ``Higher
	Education: More Information Could Help Student Parents
	Access Additional Federal Student Aid''................ 106
	Questions submitted for the record by:
	Banks, Hon. Jim, a Representative in Congress from the
	State of Indiana....................................... 126
	Fulcher, Hon. Russ, a a Representative in Congress from
	the State of Idaho..................................... 126
	Harshbarger, Hon. Diana, a a Representative in Congress
	from the State of Tennessee............................ 126-7
	Sherrill, Hon. Mikie, a Representative in Congress from
	the State of New Jersey



	Responses to questions submitted for the record by:
	Dr. Burke................................................ 128
	Mr. Oakley............................................... 134
	Mr. Zibel................................................ 140


	RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19

	----------


	Wednesday, March 17, 2021

	House of Representatives,
	Subcommittee on Education and
	Workforce Investment,
	Committee on Education and Labor,
	Washington, DC.
	The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:03 p.m., via
	Zoom, Hon. Frederica Wilson (Chairwoman of the subcommittee)
	presiding.
	Present: Representatives Wilson, Takano, Jayapal, Omar,
	Leger Fernandez, Jones, Manning, Bowman, Pocan, Castro,
	Sherrill, Courtney, Bonamici, Scott (ex officio), Murphy,
	Grothman, Banks, Comer, Fulcher, Miller-Meeks, Good, McClain,
	Harshbarger, Spartz, and Foxx (ex officio).
	Staff present: Tylease Alli, Chief Clerk; Katie Berger,
	Profession Staff; Ilana Brunner, General Counsel; Sheila
	Havenner, Director of Information Technology; Eli Hovland,
	Policy Associate; Ariel Jones, Policy Associate; Andre Lindsay,
	Policy Associate; Max Moore, Staff Assistant; Mariah Mowbray,
	Clerk/Special Assistant to the Staff Director; Kayla
	Pennebecker, Staff Assistant; Veronique Pluviose, Staff
	Director; Benjamin Sinoff, Director of Education Oversight;
	Banyon Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology;
	Claire Viall, Professional Staff; Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff
	Director; Kelsey Avino , Minority Professional Staff Member;
	Courtney Butcher, Minority Director of Member Services and
	Coalitions; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education and
	Human Resources Policy; Dean Johnson, Minority Legislative
	Assistant; Hannah Matesic, Minority Director of Operations;
	Carlton Norwood, Minority Press Secretary; Alex Ricci, Minority
	Professional Staff Member; Chance Russell, Minority Legislative
	Assistant; and Mandy Schaumburg, Minority Chief Counsel and
	Deputy Director of Education Policy.
	Chairwoman Wilson. The Subcommittee on Education and
	Workforce Investment will come to order. I believe we have a
	quorum call. We have a Member who is being waived on the
	committee. He's not a Member of the committee, but after each
	of the Members speak he will be able to participate.
	I want to welcome everyone. I note that a quorum is
	present, so that's great. Everybody is on time and ready. The
	subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on the future
	of higher education post COVID-19. And you will notice that
	some of the women are wearing white. This is a special day for
	us, this particular suffrage day.
	This is an entirely remote hearing. All microphones will be
	kept muted as a general rule to avoid unnecessary background
	noise. Members and witnesses they'll be responsible for
	unmuting themselves when they are recognized to speak, or when
	they wish to seek recognition.
	I also ask that Members please identify themselves before
	they speak, so call out your name before you speak. Members
	should keep their cameras on while in the proceeding. Members
	shall be considered present in the proceeding when they are
	visible on camera and they shall be considered not present when
	they are not visible on camera.
	The only exception to this is if they are experiencing
	technical difficulty and inform committee Staff of such
	difficulty. If any Member experiences technical difficulties
	during the hearing you should stay connected on the platform,
	make sure that you are muted, and use your phone to immediately
	call the committee's IT director, whose number was provided to
	you in advance.
	Should the Chair experience technical difficulty I'll need
	to stop. If I have to step away to vote on the floor
	Representative Mark Takano as a Member of this subcommittee, or
	another Majority Member of the subcommittee, if he is not
	available, is hereby authorized to assume the gavel in the
	Chair's absence.
	This is an entirely remote hearing and as such the
	committee's hearing room is officially closed. Members who
	choose to sit with their individual devices in the hearing room
	must wear headphones to avoid feedback, echoes, and distortion
	resulting from sitting in the same room.
	Members are also expected to adhere to social distancing
	and safe healthcare guidelines, including the use of masks,
	hand sanitizers, and wiping down their areas before and after
	their presence in the hearing room.
	In order to ensure that the committee's five-minute rule is
	adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time using the
	committee's field timer. The field timer will appear in its own
	thumbnail picture and will be named 001_timer. There will be no
	one minute remaining warning. The field timer will sound its
	audio alarm when time is up.
	Members and witnesses are asked to wrap up promptly when
	their time has expired. While a roll call is not necessary to
	establish a quorum in official proceedings conducted remotely
	or with remote participation, the committee has made it a
	practice whenever there is an official proceeding with remote
	participation for the Clerk to call the roll and help make
	clear who is present at the start of the proceeding.
	Members should say their name before announcing they are
	present. This helps the Clerk, and also helps those watching
	the platform and the live stream who may experience a few
	seconds delay.
	At this time I ask the Clerk to call the roll.
	The Clerk. Ms. Wilson?
	Chairwoman Wilson. Ms. Wilson is here.
	The Clerk. Mr. Takano?
	Mr. Takano. Present.
	The Clerk. Ms. Jayapal?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Ms. Omar?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Ms. Leger Fernandez?
	Ms. Leger Fernandez. Ms. Leger Fernandez is here.
	The Clerk. Mr. Jones?
	Mr. Jones. Here.
	The Clerk. Ms. Manning?
	Ms. Manning. Ms. Manning is here.
	The Clerk. Mr. Bowman?
	Mr. Bowman. Mr. Bowman is here.
	The Clerk. Mr. Pocan?
	Mr. Pocan. Mark Pocan's here.
	The Clerk. Ms. Sherill?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Mr. Espaillat?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Mr. Grijalva?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Mr. Courtney?
	Mr. Courtney. Courtney's here.
	The Clerk. Ms. Bonamici?
	Ms. Bonamici. Ms. Bonamici's present.
	The Clerk. Mr. Murphy?
	Mr. Murphy. Murphy is present.
	The Clerk. Mr. Grothman?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Ms. Stefanik?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Mr. Banks?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Mr. Comer?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Mr. Fulcher?
	Mr. Fulcher. Fulcher's here.
	The Clerk. Ms. Miller-Meeks?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Mr. Good?
	Mr. Good. Good is here.
	The Clerk. Ms. McClain?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Ms. Harshbarger?
	Ms. Harshbarger. I'm present.
	The Clerk. Ms. Spartz?
	[No response.]
	The Clerk. Chairwoman Wilson that concludes the roll call.
	I just wanted to add in here thank you Cheryl, thanks.
	Ms. Foxx. Madam Chair, this is Virginia Foxx. I am present
	also and I love your hat today.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Pursuant
	to Committee Rules agency opening statements are limited to the
	Chair and the Ranking Member. This allows us to hear from our
	witnesses sooner and provide Members with adequate time to ask
	questions.
	I recognize myself now for the purpose of making an opening
	statement. But before I do that I just have to say that I want
	to welcome especially Keith Thornton. Keith is one of your
	witnesses and you will hear from him shortly, but he is a
	member of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Projects that I
	have been bragging about to all of you for years, especially to
	you Representative Foxx.
	Now I didn't want my time to start until now. Today we meet
	to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on higher
	education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
	education. I want to start by reaffirming a well-established
	fact that the foundation of our work that a college degree is
	the surest pathway to financial security and a rewarding
	career.
	That is why as a Miami Dade County School Board Member, I
	led the creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence
	Project, an in-school mentoring and dropout prevention program
	that has helped prepare thousands of black boys for higher
	education and adulthood.
	Unfortunately, the COVID 19 pandemic has created new
	barriers to postsecondary degrees. Campus closures and the
	abrupt transition to online platforms saved lives. But we know
	that remote instruction has also made it harder for students
	across the country to access and complete college.
	These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every
	other facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic
	with fewer resources were disproportionately impacted by the
	disruption to in person instruction.
	Research indicates that achievement gaps between black and
	white students are wider in online classes than traditional
	settings. And on campus resources that underserved students
	normally rely on, like computer labs and reliable high speed
	internet, are restricted while campuses are closed.
	Now, fewer students--particularly fewer low-income students
	and students of color are pursuing a higher education. Social,
	psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
	students to drop out during the pandemic. And now we know
	students who discontinue their education are more likely to
	default on student loans, and less likely to re-enroll which
	lowers their chances of increased lifetime earnings.
	Institutions are also facing unprecedented state and local
	budget shortfalls which have already caused drastic funding
	cuts and cost more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In
	addition, decreased enrollment and campus closures are eroding
	schools' revenue.
	For example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges
	is down 10 percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider
	that when the pandemic started many institutions were still
	recovering from state budget cuts made during the Great
	Recession.
	To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent
	funding for higher education by passing three major relief
	packages: The Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security
	Act, or CARES Act; the Coronavirus Response and Relief
	Supplemental Appropriations Act, and just last week the
	American Rescue Plan.
	This combined investment of more than 75 billion dollars
	has helped our higher education system avert an existential
	crisis. This relief is helping institutions maintain basic
	operations, keep staff on payroll, and prepare for reopening
	safely, and it is helping students avoid hunger, homelessness,
	and other hardships.
	Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical
	funding for state and local governments, supporting our
	nation's public institutions, the workers they employ, and the
	communities they support.
	While this relief may have saved our higher education
	system from financial calamity, justice demands that the
	Federal Government do more, far more, to address the
	longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated by the
	pandemic.
	For example, as institution access COVID-19 relief funding,
	we must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and
	protect students from predatory for-profit schools. These
	institutions have a well-documented record of using taxpayer
	dollars to target vulnerable students during economic
	downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees and unreasonable
	loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
	Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of
	college. It's too expensive. This includes creating a federal
	and state partnership that incentivizes states to reinvest in
	their public institutions and offer free community college. And
	it includes expanding Pell Grants, the cornerstone of federal
	student aid, and so that fewer students that have to take
	take--fewer will have to take out student loans.
	As the Subcommittee has already established, this pandemic
	is not only testing our students and institutions. It is also
	testing Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students
	have access to safe, affordable, and quality education.
	Today I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise
	to that challenge. I want to thank our witnesses again, for
	being with us and I now yield to the Ranking Member Mr. Murphy
	for his opening statement. Mr. Murphy, Representative Murphy.
	[The statement of Chairwoman Wilson follows:]

	Statement of Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
	Education and Workforce Investment

	Today, we meet to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on
	higher education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
	education.
	I want to start by reaffirming a well-established fact at the
	foundation of our work-that a college degree is the surest pathway to
	financial security and a rewarding career.
	That is why, as a Miami-Dade County School Board Member, I led the
	creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Project, an in-school
	mentoring and drop-out prevention program that has helped prepare
	thousands of black boys for higher education and adulthood.
	Unfortunately, the COVID-19 pandemic has created new barriers to a
	postsecondary degree.
	Campus closures and the abrupt transition to online platforms saved
	lives. But we know that remote instruction has also made it harder for
	students across the country to access and complete college.
	These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every other
	facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic with fewer
	resources were disproportionately impacted by the disruption to in-
	person instruction.
	Research indicates that achievement gaps between Black and white
	students are wider in online classes than traditional settings. And on-
	campus resources that underserved students normally rely on, like
	computer labs and reliable high-speed internet, are restricted while
	campuses are closed.
	Now, fewer students-particularly fewer low-income students and
	students of color-are pursuing a higher education at all.
	Social, psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
	students to drop out during the pandemic. And we know students who
	discontinue their education are more likely to default on student loans
	and less likely to re-enroll, which lowers their chances of increased
	lifetime earnings.
	Institutions are also facing unprecedented State and local budget
	shortfalls, which have already caused drastic funding cuts and cost
	more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In addition, decreased
	enrollment and campus closures are eroding schools' revenue. For
	example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges is down 10
	percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider that, when the
	pandemic started, many institutions were still recovering from State
	budget cuts made during the Great Recession.
	To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent funding for
	higher education by passing three major relief packages:

	<bullet> the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or
	CARES Act,

	<bullet> the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
	Appropriations Act, and, just last week,

	<bullet> the American Rescue Plan Act.

	This combined investment of more than $75 billion has helped our
	higher education system avert an existential crisis. The relief is
	helping institutions maintain basic operations, keep staff on payroll,
	and prepare for reopening safely. And it is helping students avoid
	hunger, homelessness, and other hardships.
	Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical funding
	for State and local governments, supporting our nation's public
	institutions, the workers they employ, and the communities they
	support.
	While this relief may have saved our higher education system from
	financial calamity, justice demands that the Federal Government do far
	more to address the longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated
	by the pandemic.
	For example, as institutions access COVID-19 relief funding, we
	must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and protect
	students from predatory for-profit schools. These institutions have a
	well-documented record of using taxpayer dollars to target vulnerable
	students during economic downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees
	and unreasonable loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
	Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of college.
	This includes creating a Federal and State partnership that
	incentivizes States to reinvest in their public institutions and offer
	free community college. And it includes expanding Pell Grants, the
	cornerstone of Federal student aid, so that fewer students have to take
	out student loans.
	As the subcommittee has already established, this pandemic is not
	only testing our students and institutions. It is also testing
	Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students have access to
	safe, affordable, and quality education.
	Today, I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise to that
	challenge.
	I want to thank our witnesses, again, for being with us and I now
	yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Murphy, for his opening Statement.
	______

	Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Chairwoman Wilson. I appreciate the
	opportunity. I love your hat also and I look forward to the
	opportunity of working with you. I enjoyed our conversation the
	other day. I think we have so much common ground to work on. I
	could not agree with you more that individuals and minorities
	and rural communities have been disproportionately affected by
	this because of school closures, all of the more reason to get
	our kids back in school.
	America's higher education system has been in desperate
	reform for years. The systems weaknesses were further
	exacerbated by this pandemic. There are many pathways to
	success besides the traditional Baccalaureate degree, and
	institutions opposed to secondary education need to realize
	that fact if they hope to have the students thrive in the
	coming decades.
	I could not also Chairwoman, agree with you more about the
	affordability of colleges. They've gone unchecked without
	reducing costs for years and I look forward to working with you
	on that, nothing specific. We're not here today to discuss
	whether higher education needs reform, as I think everybody on
	this committee agrees so.
	According to one analysis, four in ten Baccalaureate degree
	recipients are underemployed in their first jobs after school,
	and roughly 60 percent of students it takes at least six years
	to complete their degree program. Certainly, these numbers are
	not worth celebrating.
	Now is not the time to expand on policies that have failed
	us from government before. And while Congress does play a role
	in improving all forms of postsecondary education, it should
	not take the form of expensive government handouts that push
	unworkable partisan priorities, and priorities that have shown
	that government has led to the increased cost of education.
	When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education
	system Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding
	for educational institutions to combat this once in a century,
	and hopefully, once in a much longer-term pandemic.
	Under President Trump, Congress allocated 35 billion
	dollars, that's 35 with a B towards these efforts. Republicans
	do not take spending taxpayer dollars lightly, which is why my
	Republican colleagues voted against the Democrat led budget
	reconciliation bill.
	We wanted to help people, but unfortunately this was pushed
	before unilateral with a large spending bill. But these
	unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled into
	educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
	return on investment. It is imperative that Congress take a
	close look at how the Department of Education and institutions
	of higher learning spend hard earned taxpayer dollars, and
	consider necessary structural reform to the Higher Education
	Act to serve students better.
	I'm disappointed that we're not going into this further,
	and this hearing is seemingly having a lack of actual and
	necessary oversight because I believe that is our purpose. We
	have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
	taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many
	on this committee find it too easy to spend hard earned
	taxpayer dollars without promising accountability.
	I have no problem with us investing in our students, but we
	have to hold institutions accountable. As a committee our
	loyalty should be to all students, present and future. Any
	conversations surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
	reduce the cost of attendance, and boost graduation rates while
	at the same time supporting students to pursue the type of
	education that works for them. It is not a one size fits all.
	And that means whether it be seeking a Baccalaureate
	degree, or pursuing an equally valuable skill based
	alternative, such as a career in technical education or
	apprenticeships that lead to in demand good paying jobs.
	Before the pandemic, there were over 7 million unfilled
	jobs in the United States, in part due to a skills gap. With
	employers in desperate need for qualified employees, now is the
	time more than ever, to strengthen all learning opportunities
	that provide students with skills and the necessary knowledge
	to succeed in the workforce.
	This type of strategy will not only benefit students, but
	will boost our entire economy. Higher education is in a state
	of emergency, but we cannot allow this to turn into an excuse
	to nationalize the entire postsecondary education system. The
	U.S. Constitution grants no authority over education to the
	Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
	Constitution and for a good reason.
	The founders wanted most aspects of our lives to be managed
	by those closest to them, either by State, or local or by
	family, businesses, and other elements of society. Certainly,
	they saw no role for the Federal Government in education.
	Now if we're going to be involved in education, we ought to
	expect specific financial and productive return on our
	investment and not put students into oblivion of debt.
	Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students and
	completing affordable, postsecondary education that will
	prepare them to enter the workforce with the skills that they
	need for life long learning, and life long success.
	We ought to work together, and I mean collaboration, to
	give students access to educational options that will prepare
	them to enter the workforce with the skills they need for that
	lifelong success. Students need pathways, not partisanship, and
	it is my hope and my expectation that this is a step in a
	productive and a bipartisan direction.
	Again thank you all for being here. I look forward to
	discussing reforms for higher education that increase student
	access without expensive government handouts, partisan
	programs. And I want to thank the Chairwoman for a wonderful
	discussion. As I said next week I look forward to working on
	trying to do great things for our students in education, and
	provide all students with a wonderful means of pathway to
	success. Thank you, and I will yield back.
	[The statement of Ranking Member Murphy follows:]

	Statement of Hon. Gregory F. Murphy, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
	Education and Workforce Investment

	Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you to all our witnesses for
	joining us here today.
	America's higher education system has been in desperate need of
	reform for years. The system's weaknesses were further exacerbated by
	the COVID-19 pandemic. There are many pathways to success besides the
	traditional baccalaureate degree, and institutions of postsecondary
	education need to realize this fact if they hope to help their students
	thrive in the coming decades.
	We are not here today to discuss whether higher education needs
	reform, as both sides can agree that the system needs work. According
	to one analysis, four in ten baccalaureate-degree recipients are
	underemployed in their first jobs after school. Roughly 60 percent of
	students complete their degree program within 6 years. Certainly, these
	are not numbers worth celebrating.
	Now is not the time to expand on failed, big government policies.
	While Congress has a role to play in improving all forms of
	postsecondary education, it should not take the form of expensive
	government handouts that push unworkable, partisan priorities.
	When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education system,
	Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding for educational
	institutions to combat this once-in-a-century pandemic. Under President
	Trump, Congress allocated roughly $35 billion toward these efforts.
	That is 35 billion with a b.
	Republicans do not take spending taxpayers' dollars lightly, which
	is why my Republican colleagues voted against the Democrats' budget
	reconciliation bill. Unfortunately, Democrats unilaterally pushed ahead
	with their large spending bill.
	With these unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled
	into educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
	return on investment, it is imperative that Congress take a close look
	at how the Department of Education and institutions of higher learning
	spent hard-earned taxpayer dollars, and consider necessary structural
	reforms to the Higher Education Act to serve students better. I am
	disappointed that this hearing seems to have a glaring lack of actual
	and necessary oversight.
	We have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
	taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many in this
	Committee find it way too easy to spend hard-earned taxpayer dollars
	without promising accountability. As a Committee, our loyalty should be
	to all students, present and future.
	Any conversation surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
	reduce the cost of attendance and boost graduation rates, while also
	supporting students to pursue the type of education that works for
	them--whether it be seeking a baccalaureate degree or pursuing equally
	valuable, skills-based alternatives, such as career and technical
	education and apprenticeships, that lead to in-demand, good-paying
	jobs.
	Before the pandemic, there were over seven million unfilled jobs in
	the U.S., in part due to a skills gap. With employers in desperate need
	for qualified employees, now is the time to strengthen all learning
	opportunities that provide students with the skills and knowledge
	necessary to succeed in the work force.
	This type of strategy will not only benefit students but will boost
	our entire economy.
	Higher education is in a State of emergency, but we cannot allow
	this to turn into an excuse to nationalize the entire postsecondary
	education sector. The U.S. Constitution grants no authority over
	education to the Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
	Constitution of the United States, and for good reason. The Founders
	wanted most aspects of life managed by those who were closest to them,
	either by State or local government or by families, businesses, and
	other elements of civil society. Certainly, they saw no role for the
	Federal Government in education. Now, if we are going to be involved in
	education, we ought to expect a civic, financial, and productive return
	on our investment.
	Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students in
	completing an affordable postsecondary education that will prepare them
	to enter the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success.
	We ought to work together--and I mean actual collaboration--to give
	students access to education options that will prepare them to enter
	the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success. Students
	need pathways not partisanship.
	It is my hope that this hearing is a step in the productive and
	bipartisan direction. Again, thank you all for being here, and I look
	forward to discussing reforms to higher education that increase student
	success without expensive government handouts
	______

	Chairwoman Wilson. Without objection, all of the Members
	who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so
	by submitting them to the Committee Clerk electronically in
	Microsoft Word format by 5:00 p.m. on March 31, 2021.
	I will now introduce the witnesses. Keith Thornton, Jr., is
	a senior at Florida International University, FIU, where he's
	majoring in recreation and sports management. Keith is a 5000
	Role Models of Excellence Project Wilson Scholar in an
	educational talent search TRIO program alum, and he is a Pell
	Grant recipient.
	During the COVID-19 pandemic Keith received emergency
	financial aid from both the CARES Act and CERTIA, which helped
	him stay afloat. I am pleased to recognize my colleague
	Representative Mark Takano to briefly introduce his constituent
	who is appearing before us as a witness today. Representative
	Mr. Takano, do I see you?
	Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chair Wilson. It's my distinct honor
	to welcome Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley, who is Chancellor of
	the California Community College system. Mr. Oakley was
	appointed Chancellor for the California Community Colleges in
	2016, and is best known throughout California and the Nation
	for implementing innovative programs and policies that help
	students succeed in college.
	One of the most exciting developments in California Madam
	Chair, is the use of alternatives to testing to actually place
	students into college level classes and avoid unnecessary
	remediation. This has huge implications for diversifying----
	[Audio difficulties]
	Mr. Vassar. Chairwoman Wilson, I believe Mr. Takano's
	connection became severed possibly.
	Chairwoman Wilson. All right. So I'd like to welcome
	Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley as a witness. Welcome. It's a
	pleasure to have you here today. The Chancellor was appointed
	for the California Community Colleges in 2016, and is best
	known throughout California and the Nation for implementing
	innovative programs and policies that help students succeed in
	college.
	Prior to becoming Chancellor Mr. Oakley was a
	Superintendent President of the Long Beach Community College
	District. After serving in the U.S. Army, Chancellor Oakley
	began his education at a community college, first enrolling at
	Golden West College and then transferring to the University of
	California Irvine where he received a bachelor of arts in
	environmental analysis and design and master of business
	administration. Welcome.
	Our next witness is Daniel Zibel. He is the Vice President
	and Chief Counsel and co-founder of the National Student Legal
	Defense Network. Mr. Zibel is an expert on consumer protection
	and higher education and leads Student Defense Network to
	ensure that student loan borrowers can access the courts to
	assert their rights against predatory loan servicing practices.
	Prior to joining Student Defense, Dan served as a Deputy
	Assistant General Counsel for post-secondary education at the
	Department of Education where he served as the lead legal
	counsel to the enforcement unit at Federal student aid, and on
	the Obama administration's interagency task force on foreign
	project education.
	Mr. Zibel has a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from
	Haverford College and a law degree from the University of
	Michigan Law School. Welcome.
	Next Ms. Lindsey Burke is a Director of the Center for
	Education Policy and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education.
	Lindsey Burke oversees the Heritage Foundation's research and
	policy on issues pertaining to pre-school, K-12, and higher
	education reform.
	She also serves as a fellow with EdChoice, the Legacy
	Foundation of Milton and Rose Friedman and is on the National
	Advisory Board of Learn4Life, a network of public charter
	schools. Is on the board of the Educational Freedom Institute,
	and serves on the Board of Choice Media.
	Ms. Burke holds a bachelor's degree in politics from
	Hollins University, a master of teaching degree from the
	University of Virginia, and a Ph.D. in education policy from
	George Mason University.
	These are my instructions to you as witnesses. We
	appreciate your participation today, and we look forward to
	your testimony. Let me remind you that we have read your
	written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing
	record. Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(d) and committee practice,
	each of you is asked to limit your oral presentation to a five-
	minute summary of your written statement.
	I also remind you as witnesses that pursuant to Title 18 of
	the U.S. Code, Section 1001, it is illegal--illegal, to
	knowingly and willfully falsify any statement, representation,
	writing, document, or material fact presented to Congress or
	otherwise conceal or cover up a material fact.
	Before you begin your testimony please remember to unmute
	your microphone. During your testimony staff will be keeping
	track of time, and a timer will sound when time is up. Please
	be attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and
	re mute your microphone.
	If any of you experience technical difficulties during your
	testimony, or later in the hearing, you should stay connected
	on the platform, but make sure you are muted, and use your
	phone to immediately call the IT director whose number was
	provided to you in advance.
	We will let all of the witnesses make their presentations
	before we move to Member questions. When answering a question
	please remember to unmute your microphone. I will first
	recognize my friend and son, Keith Thornton from Florida
	International University. Keith.

	STATEMENT OF KEITH THORNTON, STUDENT, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL
	UNIVERSITY

	Mr. Thornton. Good afternoon everyone. Again my name is
	Keith Thornton, Junior. Chairman Member Wilson, Ranking Member
	Murphy, Members of the subcommittee, thank you for allowing me
	to testify today. I value the opportunity to come before you on
	behalf of all students across the Nation whose educations have
	been disrupted by the pandemic and who have relied on emergency
	aid to remain financially afloat and continue pursuing their
	degree.
	The fact that my experience during this challenging period
	is in many ways not unique is a testament to the severity of
	this crisis, and the ongoing need for Federal relief.
	I am a senior at Florida International University studying
	recreation and sports management. And since my freshman year, I
	have benefited from the support of fellow students, teachers,
	and positive campus environment. This support network has been
	critical to helping me remain focused and weather many of the
	challenges that have arisen in the past year.
	I am also a proud graduate of the South Florida TRIO
	Program, which enabled me to form long-lasting relationships
	with instructors and students who have been a consistent source
	of motivation. My program instructor, Ms. Tiffany Tyler,
	regularly checks in with me and checks in with my family to see
	if everything is going well with us. And there was a point in
	time where I was even contemplating whether or not college was
	for me.
	And in the end I was able to go to my peers within the
	program and they were encouraging me to continue pushing
	through and now I'm in a position where I'm getting ready to
	graduate. And Ms. Tiffany Tyler and others provided the
	guidance and mentorship that I needed to not only continue my
	education, but to also enjoy it.
	In the past year, these supportive relationships have been
	more important than ever. When the pandemic hit, my education
	was disrupted. I had to suspend my internship, and I lost my
	job. I had been working for about 2 months before the start of
	the semester, which enabled me to move into an apartment and
	forego taking out an additional loan and having to stay on
	campus.
	And losing that income was a heavy blow, so it was a great
	relief when a few weeks later I received emergency funds from
	FIU that were made available through the CARES Act. And this
	aid helped me purchase school supplies and even keep up with
	bills, whether it was rent, or anything concerning my car
	because I had to travel.
	Without that financial support, I would have been forced to
	jeopardize my future by taking out more loans that I initially
	hadn't planned for. The second round of aid that I received
	through the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
	Appropriations Act has similarly provided a lifeline that gave
	me the opportunity to continue my studies without added
	financial stress.
	This has been critically important because even without
	having to worry about replacing the income I lost when my job
	ended, it has been challenging to remain focused on my studies.
	And although I haven't allowed myself to become discouraged, or
	to give up, COVID-19 has had a huge effect on my ability to
	stay motivated.
	I struggled with the transition of virtual learning and not
	having the same support network around me. Without the presence
	of my peers and teachers, I felt more alone and forced to rely
	on my own strength.
	Still, it has been my relationships with mentors,
	counselors, and other students that have enabled me to remain
	on track. And with their continued support, and thanks to the
	emergency financial aid I received, I look forward to
	graduating as soon as this summer.
	I would like to thank the Members of this committee for
	thinking of students across the United States who, like me,
	suddenly had to take on unexpected costs when the pandemic hit,
	and for delivering meaningful relief.
	I would also urge you to continue to provide support for
	students who are most in need. We represent the future, and I,
	like many of my counterparts, want to use our degrees to make
	an impact. Although Florida tuition rates have remained flat
	for eight years, many students would benefit from an effort
	double the Pell considering the significant financial burden
	that exists on us and our families.
	Receiving financial aid that removes some of this strain
	helps put students in a position to thrive. And as its name
	implies, FIU has an international focus, and I want to also
	speak to the importance of ensuring that international students
	have the same opportunities to succeed.
	They are pursuing the same dreams and have in many cases
	been equally impacted by the pandemic. So I want to thank you
	for the opportunity to speak here today, and I look forward to
	answering any questions you may have. Thank you.
	[The prepared statement of Mr. Thornton follows:]

	Prepared Statement of Keith Thornton
	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much Keith, thank you. We
	will now hear from Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley. Chancellor.

	STATEMENT OF CHANCELLOR ELOY ORTIZ OAKLEY, CHANCELLOR,
	CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY COLLEGES

	Mr. Oakley. Well good afternoon everyone. And Chair Wilson,
	Ranking Member Murphy, and Members of the subcommittee my name
	is Eloy Ortiz Oakley. I'm a proud community college transfer
	student, and I'm pleased to serve as the Chancellor of the
	California Community Colleges.
	I'm honored to speak to you today on the future of higher
	education, as we look to the end finally, of the COVID-19
	pandemic. My remarks will focus on how our community colleges
	are supporting our students to stay enrolled and complete their
	studies, and how an effective partnership with Congress and the
	Federal Government can lead to an equitable recovery by
	investing in higher education and supporting the displaced
	workers ravaged by this pandemic.
	First, let me tell you a little bit about the California
	Community Colleges. We are the largest and most diverse system
	of higher education in the Nation with 116 colleges serving
	more than 2 million students in urban, suburban, and rural
	communities. They are the primary pathway to educational and
	economic mobility for Californians, and we are proud to serve
	the top 100 percent of our students.
	Like much of the Nation 1 year ago today, our State went
	into an immediate lockdown to ensure the health and safety of
	our workers, families, and students. Our colleges are--I want
	first commend Governor Gavin Newsom for his swift and decisive
	action. Our colleges also acted decisively.
	In a matter of weeks our faculty and college leaders
	mobilized to convert tens of thousands of courses and programs
	to an online, or remote modality. The support of Congress has
	been critical to our system, and our students during this
	critical moment.
	The funds provided by the CARES Act were used, among other
	things to help our diverse students purchase things like
	laptops, Wi-Fi hotspots, and as emergency financial aid to
	students who lost their jobs, in many cases were struggling to
	find their next meal, or stave off eviction.
	As we look to the future of higher education, the most
	important task is to ensure that students can attend, and
	afford the total cost of college. As no doubt you have heard,
	community colleges have seen a sudden and alarming decrease in
	enrollments since the start of the pandemic.
	We believe that this is due to many factors, foremost among
	them being that our students, they balance multiple
	responsibilities. They are parents. Primary breadwinners. They
	balance multiple jobs, and they share the same Wi-Fi with a
	full household and are facing--many of them are facing
	homelessness and other challenges.
	The economic devastation brought by the COVID pandemic has
	hit our lowest income students the hardest. We are appreciative
	of the ongoing discussions about tuition free community college
	and would note that California provides nearly three billion
	dollars in student financial aid to waive tuition for low
	income students attending community colleges and four-year
	universities.
	However, the cost of college goes beyond tuition. It
	includes textbooks, supplies such as laptops, housing, food,
	transportation and child care. We have used funds from the
	stimulus legislation passed by Congress to provide direct
	emergency one-time assistance to our most vulnerable students.
	We need stable, permanent system of student financial aid
	that acknowledges the true costs of attending college. This is
	true not just in California, but across the country where the
	movement to double the Federal Pell is gaining momentum, and we
	are pleased to support this effort.
	Our commitment is two-fold--increasing financial aid for
	students to cover non-tuition related expenses, and scaling
	those additional student supports that they need to complete
	their education. Additionally, financial support is needed to
	ensure equitable broad-band access for all.
	High-speed internet is not a luxury. If anything, what we
	have learned from this pandemic is that every American
	household must have access to reliable high-speed broadband. I
	also believe the community college training programs are
	critical to preparing America's workforce, and ensuring an
	equitable recovery. California's workforce programs, including
	those funded by the Federal Perkins Career Technical Education
	Program match, employers and high-skill, high-wage industries
	with educated and qualified workers.
	We strongly encourage these programs that provide new
	pathways to secure employment and that pay a living wage. I
	believe that we should place an emphasis of community college
	programs that focus on the skills and competencies workers need
	to get back into the workforce in a meaningful way.
	We also further support oversight of the for-profit
	industry. We thank Congress for including the America Rescue
	Plan Act language that strengthens the 90/10 rule which helps
	hold for-profits accountable for their reliance on Federal aid
	dollars.
	Finally, congressional action is needed to support our
	undocumented students. This is not a partisan issue for us.
	This is a moral and economic imperative. Undocumented students
	are our future teachers, business owners, doctors and
	entrepreneurs. We urge Congress to codify the deferred action
	for childhood arrivals program.
	I will close by adding that with regard to equity higher
	education now is the time to double down on efforts to insure
	that students have the supports they need to be successful,
	whether they're in California, middle America, or the Atlantic
	Coast. I'm proud to represent a State that leads with equity at
	the center of everything we do. We cannot do this alone.
	Ongoing Federal support, a partnership with the Biden
	administration, leaders of this subcommittee and the entire
	Congress are needed to make this happen.
	I thank you for the time. I'm honored to be here today, and
	I look forward to answering your questions.
	[The prepared statement of Mr. Oakley follows:]

	Prepared statement of Eloy Ortiz Oakley
	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We will now hear from
	Lindsey Burke.

	STATEMENT OF DR. LINDSEY M. BURKE, Ph.D., DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR
	EDUCATION POLICY, AND MARK A. KOLOKOTRONES FELLOW IN EDUCATION,
	THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION

	Ms. Burke. Good afternoon. My name is Lindsey Burke. I am a
	Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education and the Director of
	the Center for Education Policy at the Heritage Foundation.
	Thank you Chairwoman Scott and Chairwoman Foxx and thank
	you subcommittee Chairwoman Wilson and Ranking Member Murphy
	for the opportunity to testify today.
	COVID-19 has posed challenges to every aspect of education
	in America from preschool through college. But it has also
	presented opportunities to rethink whether the current higher
	education system is serving students in the best way possible,
	and whether there are opportunities for reform.
	The congressional response to COVID-19 has now included
	three major aid packages. As part of the CARES Act passed in
	March 2020, higher education received 14 billion dollars in
	additional Federal funding on top of the sector's standard
	annual appropriations.
	That was followed by another 22.7 billion dollars in new
	funding as part of the December 2020 package. And then by the
	most recent American Rescue Plan Act which will provide yet
	another 40 billion to the higher education sector. In all,
	colleges will have received an additional 76 billion dollars in
	Federal spending over the past 12 months alone--a monumental
	sum, nearly equivalent to the Department of Education's entire
	annual discretionary budget.
	Colleges should now take the opportunity to make sure that
	that money is used responsibly. College boards of trustees and
	regents need to direct their universities to tackle program
	prioritization and reinvest funds in programs that advance
	their core mission rather than continuing to engage in a
	facilities and amenities arms race.
	From 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
	administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
	faculty. At the same time the 6-year completion rate for
	students pursuing a bachelor's degree stood at just 60 percent
	in 2020. One-third of college graduates are underemployed,
	working in jobs that do not require a bachelor's degree, and
	business leaders also report that college courses do not
	prepare graduates for the workforce, or provide them with the
	practical or technical skills needed to be successful in their
	careers.
	Schools should focus resources on teaching and learning and
	should evaluate productivity by assessing and prioritizing
	academic programs that really reinforce their core mission and
	prepare students for the workforce or further academic study.
	The colleges and universities should also review facilities and
	amenities expenditures and auxiliary services such as dining
	services and student housing, janitorial services, and consider
	outsourcing delivery and management of these functions which
	are unrelated to their core mission as academic institutions.
	And for its part Congress should not lose sight of the tens
	of billions in new relief funding now that it has been
	appropriated, and should make sure the Department of Education
	is providing timely and useful oversight of how colleges are
	spending that money.
	Congress should also rescind the elastic clause of the HEA
	prohibiting creditors from using their title for keeping
	authority to impose onerous regulations on institutions. And
	Federal policymakers should make space for private lending to
	re-emerge and for innovative education financing options to
	flourish by reducing Federal subsidies, including eliminating
	the Federal PLUS Loan program, both the parent PLUS and grad
	PLUS components.
	And finally, Federal officials should allow colleges to
	limit student borrowing. Currently, colleges are barred from
	assessing a student's likelihood of repaying a loan based on
	that student's course of study or borrowing history. Although
	these factors can predict a student's ability to repay their
	loans, colleges are not allowed to limit the amount students
	can borrow.
	Congress should amend the HEA to allow colleges to limit
	borrowing, helping students to exit school with lower levels of
	debt. Colleges and universities across the country do face
	challenges associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, but so does
	nearly every sector of society. Ever increasing Federal
	spending and subsidies will not correct problems that have
	plagued the higher education sector for decades, and which
	predated the Coronavirus.
	Congress should take this opportunity to pursue reforms
	that will help colleges navigate the pandemic, while also
	increasing their value proposition moving forward thank you.
	[The prepared statement of Ms. Burke follows:]

	Prepared statement of Lindsey M. Burke
	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much for your testimony.
	Finally, we will hear from Daniel Zibel, welcome.

	STATEMENT OF MR. DANIEL A. ZIBEL, VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF
	COUNSEL, NATIONAL STUDENT LEGAL DEFENSE NETWORK

	Mr. Zibel. Good afternoon Madam Chair Wilson, Ranking
	Member Murphy and Members of the committee. I am the Vice
	President and Chief Counsel of Student Defense. We use
	litigation and advocacy to bring change for students on issues
	of consumer protection and higher education.
	I want to thank you for having me here today. As we all
	know beyond the health effects and tragic losses of this past
	year, the Coronavirus has fundamentally altered so many aspects
	of American lives. With respect to higher education there have
	been enormous impacts on students, perspective students,
	families, study loan borrowers and repayment, recent graduates,
	or those who left school without a credential at all.
	COVID has exacerbated economic problems, including growing
	disparities in a system of higher education that has benefited
	so many, but has left so many others particularly in
	communities of color with long-lasting, negative effects.
	We are seeing signs now of an enrollment resurgence at for-
	profit colleges. Although overall, post-secondary enrollment
	decline in the fall of 2020, enrollment at for-profit colleges
	actually increased. This trend is similar to what happened
	around the Great Recession, and is worrisome in light of the
	overwhelming evidence that students who attend for-profit
	colleges have worse outcomes at large than their peers at
	public or non-profit institutions.
	Thankfully, the U.S. Department of Education has ample
	tools to make sure that taxpayer funded student loans and
	grants are not propping up predatory institutions while leaving
	students with mountains of debt and worthless degrees. This
	spring marks the 30th anniversary of a bipartisan report by the
	Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, which offered
	a scathing review of the department's oversight mechanisms and
	led to bipartisan legislation that gave the department many of
	the oversight tools it has today.
	So at a time when the needs of students and borrowers are
	so pressing, the department is not effectively using the tools
	that Congress provided to ensure that colleges are best serving
	students and taxpayers. For example, on the heels of the 1991
	report, Congress sought to ensure that taxpayers were protected
	when colleges failed their students.
	Because taxpayers can be on the hook for hundreds of
	millions of dollars when an institution closes or defrauds its
	students, Congress authorized the department to recover
	financial losses, not only from institutions themselves, but
	also from the individuals who own or run those institutions,
	including board members and top executives.
	Thirty years later the department has never brought an
	action under this authority. The department has largely failed
	to fine schools for consumer facing wrongs, or issue other
	sanctions on predatory institutions. And there are far too many
	examples of the department certifying a school for years of
	access to student aid funds, even when a school is facing a
	known risk of losing State authorization or accreditation, or
	is under investigation by State and Federal law enforcement.
	Enforcement is not just about punishing misconduct. It's
	also about deterring future misconduct. But even in terms of
	routine compliance, the department's program review process and
	compliance audits are riddled with delays and inefficiencies.
	An Inspector General's sample of 739 audits over an 11 year
	period found more than 75 percent to have been conducted in a
	failing or deficient manner.
	I've noted additional failures in my written testimony.
	This is not to say that Federal student aid is always missing
	the mark. But given the enormous investment in student aid, and
	the life-long effects that failures can have on students and
	borrowers, the department must be doing a better job of
	oversight.
	I want to emphasize three additional high level
	recommendations. First, FSA must embed student protections in
	all of its decisions. Decisions should be about what is best
	for students. FSA currently considers regulated entities to be
	its partners. It's long past time for students and borrowers to
	be the true borrowers of the department.
	Second, the department must collaborate to reduce racial
	disparities around student debt. FSA should work closely with
	the department's Office for Civil Rights, and the Civil Rights
	Division of Justice, each of which has unique authorities and
	expertise.
	Third, FSA should create a public service office to oversee
	issues relating specifically to teachers, nurses and so many
	others. There should be personnel dedicated to coordinating
	with the VA on the GI bill, and with the Department of Defense
	on post-secondary programs for military members and their
	families.
	And the department must improve the bipartisan public
	service loan forgiveness program for all public servants. At
	this time, the department can and must do better. Oversight is
	one piece of a larger puzzle to ensure the promise of higher
	education. I look forward to your questions. Thank you.
	[The prepared statement of Mr. Zibel follows:]

	Prepared statement of Daniel A. Zibel
	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you to all of
	the witnesses, and again welcome. Under Committee Rule 9(a) we
	will now question the witnesses under the five-minute rule. I
	will be recognizing our subcommittee Members in seniority
	order, again to ensure that the Members' five-minute rule is
	adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time.
	And the timer will sound when time has expired. Please be
	attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and re-
	mute your microphone.
	As chairwoman I now recognize myself for five minutes.
	This question goes to Mr. Thornton. Have you had unexpected
	emergency expenses due to the pandemic? If so, how has
	receiving emergency funding, including from the CARES Act
	helped you meet your basic needs and ensure you could continue
	in school?
	And how do you think additional investments in student aid,
	like restoring the purchasing power of the Pell Grant would
	impact future generations of students?
	Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you Congresswoman Wilson. So to
	answer this question I would say that you know some unexpected
	emergency expenses that have come up due to the pandemic are
	kind of what I mentioned was me, unfortunately losing my job
	last year, right before school started.
	Initially I had the job for about 2 months, and it put me
	in a position to where I was comfortable enough to be able to
	go out and you know get my own apartment. And with the job not
	needing as many employees, I was let go from that job, so it
	put me in a position to where I had to pour a lot of funds from
	my savings, and it put me in a position to where I wasn't
	really as able to provide for myself in terms of rent, bills,
	and even things concerning school, being able to purchase
	materials.
	So as far as receiving under the CARES Act, it literally
	came just in time, and I was able to use that to not only take
	care of myself as far as where I was staying, but even take
	care of myself as far as school is concerned. And I purchased
	the necessary materials in order to stay afloat and gain the
	wisdom and knowledge that I needed in order to pass my courses.
	So that was about later last year sometime, and to answer
	your question as far as additional investments in student aid.
	I think it would be awesome. I think it definitely would help
	us as students a lot, just given the current situation still
	with this pandemic, a lot of people are still losing their
	jobs.
	It's hard for people to even find jobs, and a lot of
	people, students my age, we work so that we can take care of
	ourselves as far as school is concerned. So when it comes to
	receiving additional funds and additional aid it would help a
	lot. I think it would definitely have a huge impact on us being
	able to stay in school an also be able to provide for ourselves
	concerning our school as well.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. And with programs
	like 5,000 Role Models of Excellence and the TRIO Program
	alone, how has mentoring impacted your success?
	Mr. Thornton. I would say it has greatly impacted my
	success even now. As I mentioned with a shout out to Ms.
	Tiffany Tyler who has played a huge role in me being here, in
	my first year here, she made it memorable, honestly.
	And for her to continue to remain in contact with me,
	checking with me, see how I'm doing with school, checking in on
	my GPA, making sure that I'm able to stay afloat, making sure
	that I'm applying to scholarships. She honestly helped me out
	so much. And for that I'm extremely grateful.
	And even within the 5000 Role Models of Excellence Program
	and TRIO Program, outside of mentors I was able to build
	lasting relationships with young men like myself who were a
	part of this program and who are still pursuing a degree. I
	know that Ms. Congresswoman Wilson is familiar with a fine
	young man named Preston Cooper who not only was my roommate he
	was a 5,000 Role Models Alum.
	And he's honestly been a great addition to my life and has
	helped me grow in many different ways. So the 5,000 Role Model
	in Excellence Program and TRIO Program has been tremendous and
	has helped me to get where I am now, as I mentioned to
	potentially be able to graduate by the end of this summer.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Mr. Zibel how can the
	Department of Education better protect students, especially
	those most vulnerable to abuse from predatory institutions?
	Predatory actors.
	Mr. Zibel. Sure thank you Chair Wilson. Look, under over
	the last 4 years I think what we've seen is an administration
	that eviscerated a lot of important protections for students.
	Repealing the gainful employment rule, raising the bar for
	Trump borrower defense, or you know the student loan discharges
	for defrauded students, you know, to the point where I think
	the last Congress even used the Congressional Review Act to try
	to veto what Secretary DeVos had done, stalling a worse relief
	for borrowers who had been defrauded by for-profit colleges.
	So part of it is restoring a lot of those protections, but
	that's not it. That can't be it. There has to be a cultural
	shift at the department by putting student interest first.
	Enforcement in this space can't just be about punishing actors,
	and providing debt relief after the fact. We've got to be
	deterring conduct in the first place.
	Student lives are at stake, and the ramifications of this
	are long-lasting, so we really need to be thinking about that
	first. Our organization has been writing a lot about this over
	the past six-months at 100daydocket.org about how to
	reinvigorate enforcement and really put those culture
	protections at the front end for all students and student loan
	borrowers.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I now recognize Dr.
	Foxx for her questioning.
	Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman I appreciate that. Dr.
	Burke, well thanks to all of our witnesses today. Dr. Burke
	thank you for your testimony. Congressional Democrats are
	passionate about oversight of one particular sector of
	postsecondary education, the for-profit sector.
	The congressional Republicans care about all students at
	all institutions. What are the current institutional
	accountability metrics in the Higher Ed Act and how effective
	are they? Were these effective during the pandemic, or were
	they exposed as deficient?
	Ms. Burke. Well thank you Chairwoman Foxx for that
	question. The current accountability metrics in the Higher
	Education Act, I would say are rather lacking if we just look
	at outcomes. And that applies to all sectors. I think that it
	is inaccurate to say that problems in higher education are
	solely a function of career and technical education programs.
	If we look at traditional four-year brick and mortar
	colleges, unfortunately, we see low graduation rates across the
	board. I mentioned that the 6-year graduation rate is 60
	percent earlier, that's something that should concern us all.
	I really think that we should compare apples to apples when
	we're thinking about accountability. If you look at certificate
	programs across the country, just 45 percent of students who
	pursue a certificate at a public college had earned it with 3
	years. That figure actually rises to 70 percent for students
	who attend for-profit colleges.
	And then there are other metrics as well. Andrew Gillan who
	researches in this area found that there are 514 colleges, many
	of these are community colleges at which the loan default rates
	of their students actually exceed their graduation rates, and
	he has called these red flag institutions.
	And so you know we need accountability across the board. I
	think one way to do that is to advertise the college scorecards
	a little bit more. There's a lot of data already on that
	college scorecard. There are data about almost everything that
	you could want to know about college outcomes.
	So I think it would help greatly if we had actors in the K-
	12 space like school boards, across the country making public
	schools aware of the information, making guidance counselors
	aware so they can provide that information to students.
	Sunlight really is the best disinfectant and that applies to
	accountability within the higher education system as well.
	And then of course I would argue that one of the
	accountability measures that we really need is accountability
	for taxpayer dollars because at the end of the day our taxpayer
	funds, the Federal Government originates and services 90
	percent of all student loans now.
	And a big step in the right direction, as I mentioned
	earlier, would actually be to reduce some of these Federal
	subsidies to make space for private lending to re-emerge.
	Private lenders are in a better position to judge a student's
	ability to repay those loans moving forward.
	I think that is the single best accountability measure that
	we could put into place.
	Ms. Foxx. Well thank you very much. When I heard Mr. Zibel
	say that it is inappropriate to punish actors, and we needed to
	put students first, I thought that he was talking about the
	Obama administration actually.
	Do you have an idea on how we could align the incentives of
	institutions, employers, taxpayers, and students. I think you
	mentioned about accountability, but how do we align the
	incentives so that it appears to be a win-win, instead of a
	win-lose situation all the time?
	Ms. Burke. Yes that's a great question Representative Foxx.
	I think one of the best things to do is really a State level
	effort, and we're already seeing this in 32 states across the
	country, Virginia, Tennessee, Indiana, many others, where they
	have policies in place that allocate their funds to public
	colleges based on measures that include course completion, so I
	think that's one good step in the right direction.
	And then again at the end of the day, I think we can take a
	cue from the market. We can look at what industry is doing when
	it comes to really realigning incentives. There are many
	industry upscaling programs that are out there at the moment.
	You can look at companies, Amazon, FedEx, others that will
	actually prepay tuition for programs that are aligned with
	different career paths within their organization, and so I
	think that's a way to really responsibly align incentives.
	A lot of that though is going to have to happen at the
	State level and within the private sector.
	Ms. Foxx. Great. Well you gave me a good segue to talk
	about fostering a culture of life-long learning, which we think
	is very important. But the current system is not designed for
	multiple access points and off ramps. What HEA reforms can
	Congress make to create a system where short-term programs,
	stackable credentials, and life-long learning is the new
	normal?
	Ms. Burke. Well that's such a critical question as well.
	You know there are conversations right now around allowing
	existing Title IV funds to go to shorter term programs to allow
	students to direct those dollars to options that currently
	aren't eligible under ETA rules because of those time
	limitations.
	I think that's a really good step in the right direction.
	That would enable a lot of individuals, people who want to
	switch careers, you know, mid-career to engage in earn and
	learn opportunities, to take some of those Title IV funds to
	shorter term program.
	I think that's a step in the right direction. There are
	larger reforms that need to take place like decoupling Federal
	financing from accreditation to allow Title IV dollars to flow
	in a more piecemeal way, but at least in the near-term, those
	short-term options are a good step in the right direction.
	Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman. I yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. Mr. Takano of
	California. Mr. Takano are you still connected? We'll come back
	to Mr. Takano. Is Mr. Murphy on? Mr. Murphy of North Carolina,
	Mr. Murphy.
	Mr. Murphy. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson. First of all I
	want to acknowledge Keith Thornton, Mr. Thornton, just to
	congratulate you on the fine work that you've done, wish you
	the best of success. You know that success comes from within,
	and it doesn't come from being handed down to you, but it comes
	from hard work and opportunity.
	So I congratulate you on what you've done, and encourage
	you to do even greater things and we look forward to hearing
	back from you. So a question I'll direct, at least the first
	one toward Dr. Burke, and thank you for joining us today. Your
	testimony will help us as we seek to work with our Democratic
	colleagues to reform the HEA, and the best interest of students
	and taxpayer.
	I want to stress the importance of bipartisanship. Last
	year Congress came together in a bipartisan manner to pass two
	COVID-19 relief packages that included specific, and very
	significant funding for postsecondary education.
	I have to say I was disappointed that this last funding
	package went across party lines and was not a bipartisan
	effort, and that's disappointing I think, not only for the
	country, but for our Congress as whole. We need to really work
	together. The American people are better served when we tackle
	problems shoulder to shoulder.
	In that vein Dr. Burke, let me ask your assessment of what
	Congress did last year with the Higher Education Emergency
	Relief Funding. Can you put into context the size and the scope
	of the postsecondary educational bailout? You talked about
	numbers before, but I'd like you to flush that out a little bit
	more if you will.
	Ms. Burke. Sure. Thank you Representative Murphy for that
	question. I did talk about numbers before. I think it's
	important to reiterate some of those numbers. The CARES Act was
	14 billion for higher ed, and then we saw the second package in
	December. That was another 21 billion dollars in that
	supplemental proposal.
	And then again colleges and universities will receive 40
	billion as a result of this third package. So in all we're
	talking about over 70 billion dollars. As I said this is more
	than the entire Department of Education's annual discretionary
	budget, so it really is a breathtaking sum.
	I did a back of the envelope calculation this morning, and
	if you consider the fact that there are 20 million roughly,
	college students across the country, and we have now expended
	as a result of these three packages in additional Federal
	spending, 76 billion. That's over $3,800.00 per college
	student, just in these additional funds that have gone out the
	door.
	So it really is like I said, I don't think there's a better
	word to describe it than a breathtaking sum of new Federal
	spending. And of course this is not free money. This is
	taxpayer money. It gets handed down to future generations.
	Right now we have about 28 trillion dollars standing as our
	national debt, that's $84,000.00 per person in the country, and
	this will certainly add to that.
	So it's a large amount of money and it really needs some
	oversight.
	Mr. Murphy. I think we're good. That's OK. All right. Well
	thank you Dr. Burke. Let me just say you know I've been very
	concerned about administrative bloat, and I wrote a couple
	papers on that. I was on a board of trustees at a liberal arts
	college, and I saw our administrative bloat compared to the 42
	other sister colleges skyrocket.
	My fear is that Mr. Zibel would prefer we had more
	committees, more Vice Presidents, more other bureaucracy. And
	as we've seen the level, the amount of educational dollars that
	actually go toward teaching students, does pale in comparison
	to that of adding more administrative bloat.
	I fear that now that we've poured all this massive money to
	colleges, instead of actually learning to contract their
	budgets and be responsible with them, will actually do just the
	opposite. We'll see more lazy rivers. We'll see more quiet
	oasis rooms. We'll veer from the mission of colleges to teach
	students before.
	So to your point they're going to now be flush with money.
	And anybody flush with money is probably in some ways, I fear,
	because of higher education and what they've done historically
	in the last 10-15 years, they're going to spend it. And what
	does that do in all of a sudden 5-10 years when that money runs
	out, all of a sudden that is going to be demanded upon students
	and giving them much, much, much higher access or risk, or
	again being bankrupt when they have all these massive charges.
	I wish you could speak to that just a little bit about
	administrative bloat, and what this money is you think in your
	prediction, is actually going to do to college costs in the
	future.
	Ms. Burke. Sure thank you for that question. Administrative
	bloat is a huge problem. We have seen significant numbers and
	staffing increases over the past decade. I mentioned earlier
	that from 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
	administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
	faculty and colleges across the country.
	If you just look at non-instructional staff at universities
	around the country, that now accounts for more than half of
	university payroll costs, the non-instructional staff. Just 40
	percent of full-time employees at non-doctoral colleges are
	instructional staff.
	And that figure actually drops to 28 percent at doctoral
	granting institutions. So just 28 percent at those institutions
	are teaching faculty. This is something that higher education
	scholar Preston Cooper has looked into at length, and he has a
	new report he just put out that I would commend where he
	recently found that since 2003 only one-third of the increase
	in colleges and universities core expenditures has gone to
	spending on instruction, just one-third of the increase goes to
	instruction.
	As he says almost all of the rest has fed the growth of the
	vast administrative apparatus of these institutions. And so as
	I mentioned in my opening statement, colleges really have
	needed a course correction for decades, and so you know, I
	think too many unfortunately are now looking at these various
	stimulus bills as a way to pay for general fiscal mal-
	administration over the past two decades.
	Mr. Murphy. Dr. Burke thank you. We're passed our time. I
	appreciate it. Thank you Madam Chairman, I'll yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you Mr. Murphy. Ms. Burke you are
	consistently going over time. Please be mindful of the clock.
	It's there for you. You seem not to hear me when I'm telling
	you that you're over time, so you will have to keep up with the
	time, and when you see that your time is up please stop. We
	have a long hearing and a lot of people to ask questions. Thank
	you.
	Mr. Takano of California is our next person, speaker.
	Mr. Takano. Thank you Madam Chair. My question is for
	Chancellor Oakley. Chancellor could you comment briefly on how
	California deals with the balance between the administrative
	costs and instructional costs?
	Mr. Oakley. Absolutely. And it's a pleasure to be here
	again answering these questions. First of all in California you
	know each State is different. But in California in the
	community colleges, we actually have a law. It's called the 50
	Percent Law, which requires every community college to assign
	at least 50 percent of all revenues that come from the State to
	instruction, to the classroom.
	Now because the nature of instruction has changed quite a
	bit over time, we have had to expand that view because there
	are a number of other efforts that go into supporting a
	student, including a lot of the student supports that help a
	student succeed. So that is the way we handle it, and I would
	also say that because our system is comprised of 73 districts,
	all have locally elected boards, as well as a State system
	which has a board of Governors.
	There is a sunlight all over our system. So these questions
	are constantly addressed. They're constantly examined, and
	we're constantly being held accountable for where our dollars
	go.
	Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor. You know this hearing is
	in relationship to the American Rescue Plan and how it relates
	to education. I know that in California your sister
	institutions, the California State University System, and the
	UC system, have suspended the use of standardized tests for the
	purposes of admission.
	Do you expect that--it's not really an experiment, it was
	sort of forced by circumstances. Do you expect these sorts of
	things, these sorts of practices to continue after the pandemic
	is over?
	Mr. Oakley. I do. In the California community colleges
	we've eliminated the use of standardized placement exams. We
	have found through our own research, as well as research that's
	happened across the country, that the use of standardized exams
	for the purpose of placing the students in courses has
	significantly undermined low-income students from all
	backgrounds.
	The same is true for standardized admissions exams. And I
	think the research is overwhelming now. I think places like the
	University of California have seen the impact that it has had
	on low-income students and communities of color. And I don't
	believe that we are going back to those practices in the
	future.
	Mr. Takano. Is it not true that this innovation, this
	experimentation of not using tests like the placement, or to
	place students into college level classes at California
	community colleges. But that was going on pre-pandemic is what
	I understand, and can you tell us about what you've seen? Is
	your faculty happy with this? Have the outcomes been good? Have
	your transfer rates suffered because of the fact that you're
	placing students by using instruments other than standardized
	tests?
	Mr. Oakley. So first of all the use of what we call
	multiple measures placement. That is using multiple sources of
	information to gain information about a student, and place them
	in the course that they deserve to be in, and particularly in
	math and English, has been going on for several years in
	certain pilots across the system.
	A couple of years ago this became law for the entire
	system. Since then students who have been placed using this
	method, without using standardized placement exams, students
	are succeeding in numbers equal to those students that may have
	begun in remedial courses before then.
	We have seen significant, significant increases in the
	number of students of color that have been placed in transfer
	level English and math, and they are succeeding at the same
	rates as other students. So we have seen nothing but success
	thus far. It's given us a lot of good information about how we
	continue to roll this system out.
	And as we continue to rely less and less on remedial
	courses, and rely more and more on providing students a pathway
	to getting into courses that actually count toward their
	educational goal. And that's been the biggest change. So many
	courses were created in remedial education before this change
	that were leading nowhere.
	And so many students, particularly those of low income
	status were getting trapped in these courses and not being able
	to complete their educational goal.
	Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor my time is up. It sounds
	like innovation was already happening in California community
	colleges, and it sounds like diversifying the higher education
	is also being significantly impacted. Madam Chair I yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We'll now here from
	Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin.
	Mr. Grothman. Yes. Thanks for having me. I have a question
	here for Dr. Burke. You know over the weekend I ran into
	another woman, age 51. She got laid off. She had a general
	degree, had a good job, and now she can't find anything. And
	she was just bemoaning the fact that when she was you know,
	rather than go to a four-year college, why she wasn't a welder,
	a medical tech of some nature, something or other.
	And I still hear back home well-paid guidance counselors
	advising everybody to go to college when again and again, I
	find people not going to college lined up higher paid with less
	student debt, and more job security. What can we do to
	straighten out these reasonably well-paid guidance counselors
	to give people a little bit better advice, not to mention, on
	the other end of the thing.
	When I talked to our employers in construction, in medical
	field, and manufacturing. Well right now the only thing holding
	us back from building more housing in Wisconsin, we can't find
	anybody to do the work. What can we do to straighten out these
	guidance counselors there Dr. Burke? It's a lot of people's
	lives.
	Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Grothman. I completely
	agree with you that we need to be communicating to students
	that there are multiple pathways to climbing the ladder of
	upward, economic mobility in America. And too often, the only
	answer that we give them when asked what they should do, is
	attend a traditional four-year college.
	And that has not served many students well who would be
	better situated in the future if they did something other than
	go through that four-year brick and mortar route. And you know
	to your point about construction workers and mechanics,
	electricians, waitresses, you know, all of these individuals
	end up bearing the cost of Federal bailouts, and ever-
	increasing Federal subsidies in the higher education sector.
	I think it's always important to bear in mind that still
	today two-thirds of Americans do not hold bachelors degrees,
	and it is that two-thirds of Americans who also have to pick-up
	the cost for ever-increasing Federal spending.
	Mr. Grothman. OK. I'll give you a general question. You
	know again I hear talking to my trade unions or tech schools
	and people, you know, going back, getting a skill, maybe in
	their early 30's, after they already got a college degree in
	their early 20's.
	Percentage-wise Doctor Burke, I have no idea what
	percentage of people going to a four-year college would be
	better off not going to one today in your opinion.
	Ms. Burke. Well it's hard to say, and it depends on how you
	quantify better off. You know even an individual who might not
	see a massive increase in earnings after having graduated,
	might still say that the experience was worthwhile for them.
	People go to college for a lot of different reasons. But
	one thing we do know is there are an awful lot of students who
	leave without earning that paper credential that they had so
	fought to get. So many students right now are leaving without
	graduating, and I mentioned 60 percent, 6 year college
	graduation rate. And really the worst position you can be in is
	having gone to two or three or three and a half years of
	undergrad work, taken out those loans and not graduated with
	that paper credential.
	And unfortunately, we do see that in many cases. So I think
	that for those individuals you could make the case that another
	path would have been much more worthwhile, but it is hard to
	quantify.
	Mr. Grothman. Well, OK I know there's certain authors who
	take a stab at it, but I'm going to come back to the woman I
	talked to over the weekend. You know I frequently make the
	pitch for young people to get a skill, rather than college, and
	that you're going to graduate with less debt, and frequently
	make more money immediately.
	One thing I don't think is taken into account is if you do
	wind up with some middle low management thing, and you're laid
	off when you're 50 or 55, in our society frequently you're
	almost unemployable. Whereas if you have a skill, you can keep
	working until you're 60 or 70 or 80 if you want to. Could you
	comment on the benefit of having a skill, a specific skill set
	in manufacturing, med, tech, whatever, as opposed to a general
	degree on people who get laid off when they're over 40?
	Ms. Burke. Sure. Well what we do know, and I can't give you
	specific numbers on the skill-based side. But what we do know
	is that there are a large proportion of students who are
	leaving undergraduate work, and entering jobs that do not
	require a college degree. And so this high level of what we
	refer to as underemployment is a real problem.
	And I think does suggest that many of those students would
	have been better served pursuing options that are skills-based
	in nature.
	Mr. Grothman. Well thank you Dr. Burke. I appreciate what
	you're saying, and I hope you continue to educate young people
	around the country to get a second opinion from their guidance
	counselors, who are frequently well-paid and giving bad advice
	for their pay. Thank you.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ms.
	Jayapal from Washington I see you driving, welcome.
	Ms. Jayapal. Thank you Madam Chair. I am not driving I
	promise you, but I am in a car because I didn't want to miss
	this very important hearing. It is clear that the pandemic has
	had a negative impact on college enrollment for all students,
	particularly low-income, first generation, and certainly
	freshman of color, who we've seen a nearly 30 percent decline
	in community college enrollment across the country.
	And since a degree, a higher education degree, whether it's
	skills training, or a four year college, remains a strong
	pathway to the middle class our economic recovery may be
	largely dependent on affordable access to postsecondary
	education. And that's why I'm excited for the Seattle Promise
	Program in my district, and proposals like My College for All
	Act which President Biden has embraced, to make both four-year
	and two year public higher education free for families earning
	up to $125,000.00.
	Mr. Thornton it's very clear from your testimony that
	Federal programs like TRIO have been meaningful to you
	personally, and in your student career, in spite of programs
	that help some students shoulder the cost of textbooks,
	housing, food, and childcare, data still shows that due to
	COVID-19 as many as 56 percent of students will need additional
	aid to stay enrolled.
	Is it your opinion that more comprehensive Federal
	assistance would help students to stay in school?
	Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for asking, and I
	definitely agree that additional funding would help students be
	able to stay in school. I think kind of being a living
	testimony to the current situation with the pandemic, me plus a
	bunch of other students like myself, some people we literally
	worked, some students we worked to actually stay in school to
	pay tuition, to pay to afford books and school materials.
	And I think that additional funding definitely would assist
	in the students being able to stay in school, and pursue their
	dreams, or their dream job, or pursue a career with their
	major.
	Ms. Jayapal. So important. Thank you so much. Considering
	Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of the [audio issues] to
	less than 30 percent at a public four-year college, would you
	speak more on this disparity making college increasingly out of
	reach for too many people?
	Mr. Vassar. I think the beginning of your question was not
	heard Congresswoman Jayapal.
	Ms. Jayapal. Oh OK, thank you. This is a question for
	Chancellor Oakley. Non-tuition costs are an important
	consideration since Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of
	expenses to less than 30 percent at a public four-year college.
	Would you speak more on this disparity making college
	increasingly out of reach for too many people?
	Mr. Oakley. Absolutely and thank you for that question
	Representative Jayapal. This is particularly an acute situation
	in states like California. High cost of living states, high
	cost of living communities. Our students, particularly those
	who attend California community colleges and those who attend
	broad access public institutions come from some of the lowest
	income communities in California and throughout the country.
	So the cost of attending college is the most significant
	cost. States like California for example, the California
	community colleges has the lowest tuition in the country. In
	addition, more than half of our students don't pay tuition
	because of the California College Promise.
	So the cost of attending college, the true cost of
	attending college is the issue that keeps so many students from
	one, attending college, and two, attending full-time because so
	many of them have to juggle multiple issues, have to maintain
	work in order to provide for their families and for their own
	education.
	So Pell is a significant component to helping those
	individuals afford to go to college, to complete their college
	education in a four-year period of time. And it has not been
	keeping up with the cost of attending college.
	And so supporting an increase in Pell is certainly
	something that we support, as well as continuing to reduce the
	cost of attendance is also a key ingredient.
	Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And my College For All bill
	would double Pell, and it would allow states with tuition
	programs to redirect any of their savings toward making college
	more accessible. How would--my College for All bill also uses a
	Federal/State partnership to make public four-year universities
	free for qualifying students.
	Chancellor, how would having a Federal partnership that
	allows states to redirect savings to non-tuition costs help
	colleges nationally as they struggle with low enrollment?
	Mr. Oakley. Well I believe this Federal/State partnership
	is critical. States are in the primary role of providing
	support for our colleges and universities and they're doing--
	states like California are doing a remarkable job of providing
	the additional support, lowering tuition, keeping tuition low,
	keeping the cost of college low.
	So this partnership would be beneficial in that states like
	California could use those additional resources to provide
	additional support for students, either support services or
	support for non-tuition related costs.
	Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And this is a key important
	piece, and I look forward to working with you. Madam Chair I
	yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. According
	to my records Mr. Good of Virginia is the next questioner. Mr.
	Good you're on.
	Mr. Good. Thank you Madam Chairman, and thank you to all of
	our witnesses for being with us today. My questions will be
	directed specifically to Dr. Burke. Dr. Burke I wanted to ask
	you how do you think Federal funding has contributed to the
	exploding costs of higher education?
	Ms. Burke. Well thank you for that question Representative
	Good. It has clearly contributed. If you look at the inflation
	adjusted tuition rates since the 1970's. Those have quintupled
	at both public and private colleges across the country. And
	then when you compare that number to Federal subsidies, and
	those subsidies over the same time period have really increased
	dramatically with spending on student loans rising 328 percent
	over the last 30 years, from about 20 billion in 1990 to about
	87.5 billion in the most recent year of data available.
	So, and I would also say that this question of
	disinvestment and State spending is I think, also a little bit
	off the mark. Because if you look at appropriations for public
	colleges and universities at the State level, those have
	increased $1,700.00 per pupil in real terms since 1980.
	So it is safe to say, I would agree with Economist Richard
	Vetter at the University of Ohio that dumping Federal subsidies
	out of helicopters as he once put it, has only enabled
	universities to increase their costs, their spending
	profligately, and really pass that on to students.
	Mr. Good. I've had students tell me, and parents tell me
	that once they get on the student loan treadmill it just
	continues. In other words they get loans, it's almost you have
	to work deliberately to stop the student loans from coming.
	Once you enroll that first semester that first year, it seems
	automatic.
	In your testimony you talked about requiring university's
	report on the use of Federal funding. What specific questions
	might you ask them to report on?
	Ms. Burke. Sure. And I think specifically with regard to
	the new money that has gone out the door, we really need to
	know whether colleges are using these funds to actually help
	students who are struggling. There's statutory requirements.
	About 50/50 of those dollars going to student-based aid, and
	then the other 50 percent going to institutional priorities,
	but we really do need to take a look and encourage colleges,
	and the Department of Ed to assess if they're sending that
	money to students who are financially struggling.
	And then second I would say, we should assess if they're
	actually using those funds to build out their IT and distance
	learning capacities to navigate any sort of similar existential
	threat in the future that they might face like another
	pandemic.
	Mr. Good. You've done a great job of verbalizing what most
	of us have already seen in the way that college education costs
	are just going through the roof, far outpacing inflation,
	multiple times over.
	Besides addressing funding, what policies do you think
	Congress could do that could help enact the amount of the non-
	classroom, non-education expenses specifically, the more what
	many might think are wasteful or exorbitant, or excessive,
	whether it's staff, or whether it's activities that are being
	funded.
	What role do you think Congress could play. How could
	Congress help address the amount of spending that's going to
	administrative type and other, maybe what some people might
	think, excessive and wasteful spending?
	Ms. Burke. Well I think the single best thing Congress
	could do would be eliminate the Plus Loan program. The Grad
	Plus Loan program in particular, this allowed graduate students
	to borrow up to the cost of attendance, and then the Parent
	Plus program allows parents to borrow for their undergrad
	student's college experience.
	And that really encourages, a family level of debt, and
	family level borrowing for families. So eliminating the Plus
	Loan program would be the No. 1 step to take. And as I
	mentioned earlier, actually allowing colleges themselves to
	limit the amount of money that students borrow.
	Mr. Good. It seems we have systemic issues where there's
	not a partnership between parents, families if you will, of
	students and the institutions, and trying to together work to
	make college affordable without putting people of course into
	excessive debt.
	What might be included? What role might Congress play to
	help improve competition in such that like a career in
	education, a technical education, temporary programs,
	vocational programs, community college, and other workforce
	development pathways might be able to get on equal footing with
	the traditional four-year school.
	Ms. Burke. Yes thanks. Again, I think one of the best
	options there would actually be reforming accreditation,
	decoupling Federal financing from accreditation to allow new
	quality assurance mechanisms to pop up, to allow a State to for
	instance, enable the Mayo Clinic to credential a nursing
	course, or the State of Virginia to allow Mount Vernon to
	credential a history course.
	And then enable Title IV funds to actually follow students
	to those individually credentialled courses and courses of
	study. And again, couple that with those short-term options for
	Title IV funding that would allow individuals to go find the
	skills and competencies they need immediately without going
	through a four-year brick and mortar college, would be a second
	extremely important step in that direction.
	Mr. Good. I think I've about expired my time. I thank you
	very much for answering my questions, and again appreciate you
	and all the other witnesses being with us today. I yield back
	my time Chairman.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Ms. Leger Fernandez
	of New Mexico welcome.
	Ms. Leger Fernandez. Hello. Thank you so much Chair Wilson.
	And thank you to the witnesses for joining us today. Mr. Zibel,
	we've heard misrepresentations about your testimony. Would you
	like to respond quickly?
	Mr. Zibel. Thank you Congresswoman. You know I think there
	were two comments. One from Ranking Member Foxx. I guess to put
	it bluntly, I don't think I said anything about punishment not
	being important. I think it is an important aspect of deterring
	misconduct.
	And when there is an institution of higher education, and
	we've seen this for decades. I really would encourage the
	Members to go back and look at the bipartisan report that
	Senator Sam Nunn and his committee drafted, back in the early
	nineties.
	And it really is deja vu all over again for some of what
	we've been seeing. And you know this is about protecting
	students at the front end. This is about making sure that
	students aren't saddled with debt, that they will never repay
	because of worthless degrees. This is about making sure that
	individuals are getting the economic opportunity through
	education to better their lives, and to ensure that the
	taxpayer investment in this, through grants and loans is being
	well spent.
	So you know it's not about partisan politics. I think if
	you look back at the history of this, Secretary Bennett, the
	Education Secretary under President Reagan was a fierce critic
	of the for-profit education industry, and for good reason at
	that time. And you know, history has a tendency to repeat
	itself, and you know, that's what the Department of Education
	needs to be doing, is really making sure that that does not
	happen again.
	It does not happen to saddle yet another generation of
	students with these mountains of debts that will never be
	repaid.
	Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you for that clarification, and
	also making sure that we all focus. Our focus should be,
	indeed, on the students. And in thinking about the focus on the
	students I am, like the chair and others who have testified
	today, concerned about the non-tuition costs of college, and
	that the pandemic has simply worsened food insecurity, and that
	that's something that the Rescue Act can address with the
	emergency funding.
	Miss Chairwoman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
	record an article from the Santa Fe Reporter entitled, ``New
	Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity.''
	Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
	Ms. Leger Fernandez. I'm also concerned about declines in
	student enrollment. And students of color in particular, right,
	have seen steep enrollment declines during the pandemic. In New
	Mexico, as an example, we've seen about a 10 percent decline
	from fall 2019 to fall 2020.
	We are also in New Mexico, facing the need to diversify our
	energy sector and move to a green economy, and will really need
	those partnerships without our higher education schools to lead
	in training for this just renewable innovative economy, like I
	like to say, in New Mexico.
	In Santa Fe Community College we just partnered with our
	National Labs and the renewable energy sector connecting
	schools and employers. Chancellor Ortiz Oakley, what do you
	believe are the best practices to recover student enrollment,
	and especially addressing those programs which could develop
	the workforce for new economies like the green economy?
	Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman.
	First and foremost, I strongly believe that community colleges
	are the greatest answer to a recovery with equity in America.
	They are closest to the students that we're talking about. They
	open their arms to every student, whether recently displaced
	worker, or a recent graduate from a high school.
	And community college is college, so they are preparing
	students for success in 21st Century economy. So first of all,
	I believe one of the greatest impacts on our students has been
	the economic fallout, the health effects from the pandemic. Our
	communities of color and low-income communities have been hit
	the hardest. So for them it is an economic issue, so providing
	direct, emergency support of any kind possible, is one of the
	best antidotes to helping them be able to make the choice
	between paying rent, and paying for their tuition and books, so
	that they can continue their education.
	Second, it's addressing the needs of displaced workers. So
	many working adults were already struggling post the last
	recession. This pandemic, the economic fallout, has devastated
	their opportunity to be in the economy in a meaningful way. So
	supporting short-term, career-training programs, to help get
	the support, the skills and competencies that workers need
	today, I think is critically important to a recovery with
	equity.
	Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you very much Chancellor, I
	yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Ms. Miller-Meeks of Iowa
	you're next. You're now live.
	Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you so much. I appreciate it Madam
	Chair. Thank you for holding this subcommittee hearing, and for
	providing for the witness testimonies. Thank all of you for
	testifying today. So I'm a little unusual. I'm one of eight
	kids. When I was burned at 15, decided to become a doctor. And
	so I left home at 16.
	I actually enrolled in San Antonio Junior College as it was
	called at that time, then was able to get a degree in nursing,
	a master's in education and ultimately a medical degree. So I
	fully support what you've said about community colleges and a
	pathway for education, especially for minority, for women, for
	under-represented groups of low-income, but actually for any
	student who wishes to go onto college, especially if they're
	concerned and aren't quite sure what they want to major in, or
	what will be a successful career path for them.
	Having said that I was able to work, go to school and have
	a combination of loans. And so my question for Dr. Burke is
	that there appears to be a dramatic rise in the number of loans
	borrowed for graduate level programs, and often these graduate
	level programs lead to high-paying jobs.
	And I'm concerned about the combination of unlimited
	Federal lending, and unlimited loan forgiveness for these
	individuals who may ultimately result in a higher income career
	pathway. So can you briefly explain in you're concerned about
	this, and you know what can Congress do to create a responsible
	lending program, and how can these reforms lead to lowered
	college cost for students?
	Ms. Burke. Great thank you Representative Miller-Meeks. I
	appreciate that. It is, it's a major concern I think for many
	of us. The proposals that are out there right now to forgive
	student loan debt anywhere from $10,000.00 to $50,000.00 and
	student loan debt, depending on what proposal you look at, are
	incredibly regressive in nature.
	They would really shift the burden of paying for college
	away from those individuals who do in fact directly benefit
	from their education onto, as I mentioned, the two-thirds of
	Americans who don't have bachelors degrees, and would
	presumably not earn as much down the road on average, as their
	college-going counterparts.
	And you also bring up a really important point, which is
	the point about professional degrees and borrowing. We know
	that individuals who pursue professional degrees in particular,
	on average, do quite well. Doctors, lawyers, and so the idea
	that we would forgive those student loans among those
	individuals who statistically speaking are likely to earn a
	decent living moving forward, really, as I said earlier, is
	regressive.
	And so I think to get back to my earlier point, if we want
	to drive down costs, we need to tackle the Plus Loan program.
	The private lending market will meet the needs of students who
	are pursuing professional degrees, knowing full well that their
	ability to repay those loans will be very high in the future.
	Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you for that. And in Iowa we have
	concurrent enrollment for high school and for community
	colleges as pathways to success. We also have the Iowa Student
	Loan program, and you had mentioned about private lending and
	Federal lending.
	We're very concerned. They do a great job of mentoring
	students, advising them, looking at if they're a certain
	educational pathway, how that will result in income and ability
	to pay back loans. And I'm concerned about, you know, doing
	away with an institution such as the Iowa Student Loan program
	which does a great job of preparing students and also giving
	financial literacy.
	So if students want to find good jobs after college, and
	that could mean that it leads to a baccalaureate, but it could
	be a different career pathway. And there is a discrepancy
	between what students feel like they know what employers say
	about their job readiness, and I just was going to ask if there
	are some non-traditional education pathways that students
	should be exploring, Dr. Burke.
	Ms. Burke. Thank you. There certainly are a lot of really
	innovative non-traditional pathways that are out there, and I
	think interest is growing in these pathways, because we know
	that employers, as I mentioned earlier, are reporting that
	students who attend the traditional four-year route, aren't
	often prepared.
	There was a survey that came out in 2018 from the National
	Association of Colleges and Employers that found that although
	almost 80 percent of students believe they're proficient in
	oral and written communication, just 42 percent of employers
	agreed.
	And then that survey was followed-up by a subsequent survey
	from the Association of American Colleges and Universities that
	found that similarly, while 62 percent of students felt they
	were competent in these skills, just 28 percent of employers
	agreed. So this gap in skills was eluded to earlier, does have
	negative economic impacts.
	It's left more than six million jobs empty across the
	country, so I think all of that calls into question the value
	add for a lot of institutions.
	Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you Madam Chair. I yield back my
	time.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. And now our good
	friend Mr. Jones of New York. Welcome to the committee,
	welcome.
	Mr. Jones. Thank you so much for your leadership Madam
	Chair. And thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing
	before us today. On behalf of the American people I want to
	thank Chancellor Oakley for your innovative work to address the
	challenges faced by community college students during the
	pandemic.
	Mr. Zibel, for your work to hold the bad actors in our
	higher education system accountable, and of course Mr. Thornton
	for sharing your important first-hand experiences as a student
	during these hard times. While the ongoing pandemic has put a
	strain on colleges and universities, we can all agree that the
	core problems in U.S. higher education predate the COVID-19
	pandemic.
	Wages have been stagnant for literally decades when you
	adjust for inflation, even as the cost of a four-year college
	education has soared. The average debt of someone graduating
	from a four-year college or university today is four times
	higher than it was in the early nineties, and this burden is
	not shared equally.
	Women, people of color, and members of the LGBTQ community
	hold a disproportionate amount of student debt, and find
	themselves less likely to graduate with a four-year degree. In
	my district, in Westchester and Rockland Counties in New York,
	where the cost of living is sky-high, thousands of young people
	must live at home with their parents in part, due to the
	student debt that they shoulder.
	This delays, or outright forecloses their home ownership,
	which we know to be the single greatest generator of wealth in
	America. So I look forward to working with my colleagues to
	address these issues, and want to thank them for their work to
	make college accessible, affordable, and equitable for all.
	Before turning to my questions, I do want to set the record
	straight on the idea that increases in financial aid somehow
	lead to increases in tuition. That is simply not true. First of
	all no study on the so-called Bennett hypothesis has been able
	to find convincing evidence that this hypothesis is real, at
	least at public institutions.
	However, a rigorous study found that for-profit
	institutions eligible for Federal student aid, charged 78
	percent more than comparable programs at ineligible, for-profit
	institutions. This strongly suggests that we need better
	oversight of the for-profit sector, not that we should stop
	providing students with Federal aid to enroll in college.
	Mr. Zibel, I'd like to begin with you. As you stated in an
	interview last year, there are many problems for the government
	to address in this country right now, and the Department of
	Education doesn't have to wait for Congress to act when it
	comes to providing student debt relief.
	I've been a leader on this issue in the Congress. Indeed
	Congress has already given the Department of Education clear
	statutory authority to forgive Federally owned student debt
	under the Higher Education Act. So Mr. Zibel would you agree
	that under existing law, yes or no, the President or his
	education secretary has the ability to forgive federally-owned
	student loan debt with a stroke of a pen.
	Mr. Zibel. So thank you Congressman for your question, and
	I appreciate your earlier commentary leading up to it. This is
	an important topic, and something that I understand that the
	White House and the department are taking a very, very close
	look at. You know quite frankly it is not something I have ever
	taken the kind of legal dive that I think needs to be taken.
	And I really want to defer to the experts who have taken
	the dive on that one before, commenting in front of Congress
	today. But I think what's immediately clear is that there are
	buckets of student loan borrowers for whom that immediate 100
	percent loan relief is doable right now. These are the 400,000
	borrowers who government has already determined are eligible
	for total and permanent disability discharges.
	These are the borrowers that the department has already
	found victimized by predatory for-profit colleges. These are
	borrowers who are attending schools that closed. And government
	needs to be taking those steps right now today, to discharge
	100 percent of those loans.
	Mr. Jones. Yes. Mr. Zibel I appreciate that, reclaiming my
	time, and actually I agree with you, and I would like to enter
	it back into the record a paper you co-authored in October 2020
	on this very issue of for-profit colleges, personally causing
	financial losses to students and taxpayers because of their
	misconduct. Madam Chair I'd like to enter that into the record.
	Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
	Mr. Jones. And I would just to put a finer point on this, I
	understand that you don't consider yourself an expert on this
	subject, but Mr. Zibel you would at least agree that the
	Department of Education has already used its statutory
	authority to pause the collection of student debt, and indeed
	the accrual of interest, which is obviously a form of student
	debt cancellation, yes or no?
	Mr. Zibel. Yes. I mean quite----
	Mr. Jones. Thank you. Reclaiming my time. Thank you so
	much. And finally, as we close, as concerns about the spread of
	COVID-19 increase, so did reported incidents of bullying,
	racism, and xenophobia toward the Asian, Asian American, and
	Asian Pacific Islander, or AAPI communities on college campuses
	across the country.
	Consequently, individuals from these communities reportedly
	afraid to engage on basic day to day tasks, like going to the
	grocery store, or walking alone in their neighborhoods.
	Chancellor Oakley, what can colleges and universities do to
	ensure that AAPI students feel safe and valued in their classes
	and on campuses?
	Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. First
	of all to be very clear, all colleges and universities should
	immediately and clearly repudiate any attacks on the Asian
	American or Pacific Islander community. We need to engage
	directly with our students, our faculty and our staff to
	discuss these issues, to ensure that we remove the stigma that
	has been applied to Asian American communities around the
	COVID-19 pandemic, or anything else.
	So we should treat this issue like we would any other
	racial reckoning issue and take it on head-on. We have a direct
	role in that, and we have our classrooms and our colleges, and
	our microphone to be able to weigh in on this.
	Mr. Jones. Thank you sir. Madam Chair I yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Let me be mindful to
	the witnesses. There's a time limit. And when you see stop I
	will give you the opportunity to finish your thought, but not a
	whole minute. Some of these issues are so important we need to
	address them, but we have to be fair. Thank you so much. And
	now Mrs. McClain of Michigan you're now live Mrs. McClain.
	Mrs. McClain. Thank you so much Madam Chair. I appreciate
	the opportunity to be on this committee, and I appreciate
	everyone on the committee as well as all the witnesses. My
	question is really regarding oversight and directed to Dr.
	Burke.
	You suggest Congress keep a watch on the tens of billions
	of dollars colleagues are spending in emergency relief. What
	exactly are some categories of expenses you are most interested
	in, and what indicators should Congress pay attention to that
	show it used taxpayers money responsibly?
	Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Representative
	McClain. So as I eluded to earlier, there are statutory
	allowances for these additional funds, and then there are the I
	think recommendations for what colleges should be using these
	funds for.
	So for example, the public and non-profit schools can use
	the money in these emergency higher education reform dollars
	for financial aid to students, and then they can use about half
	for institutional revenue, so that can be anything from faculty
	and staff training, it can be payroll costs, it can be
	backfilling lost revenue, it can be backfilling lost revenue
	due to a lack of sporting events, so it really runs the gamut.
	So those are indeed allowable uses of these funds. At the
	university level though, I think what they really should be
	using these funds for is to support struggling students. And as
	I said earlier, build out their IT infrastructures so that they
	can navigate these challenges in the future.
	And so I think that's the role of oversight at the
	Department of Ed, is to really look at what they're doing. They
	do have to submit reports, universities do regularly on how
	they're spending these funds. I hope the department makes those
	reports as public as possible.
	Mrs. McClain. Thank you. I yield back my time. Thank you
	very much.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. We'll now hear from Ms.
	Manning of North Carolina.
	Ms. Manning. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all
	the witnesses for being with us today. My first question is to
	Chancellor Oakley. I have two terrific community colleges in my
	district. I visited them when I was in district last to see the
	incredible things they're doing, and how they're holding up
	during his pandemic.
	They're doing all they can to support their students, but
	they have seen enrollment decline. How have you handled the
	tuition, the reduce tuition revenue from declining enrollment
	if your community colleges had to take cost-cutting measures?
	And if so, what kinds of things are they doing?
	Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Representative
	Manning. And North Carolina has amazing community colleges.
	First of all, the pandemic has had a direct impact on the
	revenue and expenses that community colleges have had to incur.
	One, as you mentioned, there has been a decline in
	enrollment. This means a decline in student fees, tuition,
	other revenue that colleges collect, as well as the increased
	cost to going remote or online almost overnight, providing the
	training to support the faculty, and the direct support to
	students.
	So what we've done is work first and foremost with a State,
	the legislature and the Governor, to make sure that they are
	aware of those costs, and make sure they are aware of those
	revenue declines.
	Fortunately, Governor Newsom and the legislature provided
	direct support for our colleges and universities, and we've
	also been working with Congress. We're very appreciative of the
	aid that you've provided us. I do agree that that aid needs to
	go to support students, and support the classrooms, so that we
	can become more resilient.
	And I think by and large, community colleges across the
	Nation have done exactly that. They have been on the front
	lines. They did an amazing job of on a dime, transitioning to
	remote learning, and that remote learning has had a cost. And
	so we need to continue to support community colleges like yours
	in North Carolina, because they do the yeoman's work in
	supporting those who have been hit hardest by the pandemic.
	Ms. Manning. Thank you. And as hope is on the horizon and
	we look toward the post-pandemic world, what steps do you think
	community colleges can take to reverse those enrollment
	declines?
	Mr. Oakley. Well I think given the resources that have been
	made available, community colleges need to be reaching out
	directly to their communities, directly to their students,
	trying to understand what their needs are, ensuring that
	emergency aid goes directly to them, and working with
	employers, and community members to provide them the jobs that
	they need, the hours that they need in order to make ends meet,
	so that they can continue their education.
	So I think that is the beauty of community colleges, they
	are in communities, they work with community members, mayors,
	employers, that has to be done on steroids in order for us to
	reach those students.
	Ms. Manning. Thank you. Let me ask you about another area.
	I am a former immigration attorney, and the plight of
	undocumented students is one that is of great concern to me.
	And I believe we need to find a pathway to citizenship for our
	DACA students, as well as a pathway to success for all of our
	future workers.
	Is this something that you believe we need to address, and
	do you have any comments on what we can be doing to address
	this?
	Mr. Oakley. We absolutely need to address this. California
	community colleges have over 70,000 DACA students, the largest
	of any State in the country. These are individuals that serve
	their communities. They work in their communities. They do
	everything possible to support their communities, so we need to
	provide them the support that they need to come out of the
	shadows, get the education that they need, and contribute
	meaningfully to the economy, and to support their families.
	So absolutely, we would implore Congress to codify the DACA
	program, and to provide a pathway to citizenship.
	Ms. Manning. Thank you so much sir. I'm going to turn to
	Mr. Zibel. I recently received an e-mail from a constituent who
	was very concerned because her non-profit college is being
	merged with an out of State institution that was formerly a
	for-profit institution, but is becoming non-profit.
	And in tracking colleges that convert from for-profit to
	non-profit status, the Century Foundation found that three non-
	profit schools with the most fraudulent complaints were those
	that had converted to non-profit status, but have not truly
	shifted their governance or power structures away from owners
	who had a financial interest.
	What are for-profits colleges, or why rather, are for-
	profit colleges increasingly converting to non-profit status,
	and what role should the Education Department play in ensuring
	that if they say they're non-profit they actually are?
	Mr. Zibel. So I see that my time is just about up, if it I
	may permitted this briefly, I can try and do that. I think the
	reality is that the department needs to be scrutinizing
	transactions very, very carefully to make sure that what is a
	bona fide non-profit, is actually a non-profit and that a for-
	profit is not acting as a non-profit.
	And I think GAO put out a report about a month and a half
	ago or so, on this issue, actually said the department was
	doing a better job of reviewing these and scrutinizing these,
	but really this isn't a one stop look at a school, it's got to
	be a long-term constant review to make sure that the people who
	are profiting before aren't still profiting after the
	transaction.
	Ms. Manning. Thank you so much and I yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, thank you. I know
	it's hard remotely. Next we'll hear from Mr. Comer of Kentucky.
	Mr. Comer. Thank you Madam Chair, and I'm going to wear
	both my committee hats with these questions, my Education
	Committee as well the Oversight Committee. Over the last few
	years Congress has appropriated record levels of funding to
	universities and many universities are using it well.
	For instance, universities in my district have really
	focused on trying to provide educational opportunities that are
	focused on the workforce, and what the regional employers want
	and need and offer the best paying jobs.
	Kalamazoo University is a great example. They've adapted
	the certification process then I have some communities
	colleges--Henderson Community College, Madisonville Community
	Colleges, working on some really innovative workforce
	development type programs that are in need.
	So the funds that have been invested in those programs
	obviously have been well-spent, however there are valid
	concerns that in many other instances, many of the universities
	didn't serve the students with the best possible outcome and in
	their best interest about the taxpayers and the student.
	Last year the Trump administration issued a ruling
	clarifying that only Title IV eligible students qualify to
	receive emergency student aid funding provided by the CARES Act
	and COVID relief. The rule is currently held up in the court
	process. My question is for Dr. Burke. Do you think the rule
	was consistent with other practices related to Federal student
	aid? I'll stop there.
	Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Comer. I do think it is
	consistent. These funds are open just to students who are Title
	IV eligible, that's consistent not only with Title IV broadly,
	but it's also consistent with other prior practices. If you
	look at the 1996 Welfare Reform Act for example, that limited
	public assistance programs to most legal immigrants for five
	years, or until they attained citizenship.
	So there's precedent there as well, not only in the
	existing Title IV program, but also in the '96 Act.
	Mr. Comer. Dr. Burke what's the most responsible way
	institutions can direct these emergency student aid dollars?
	Ms. Burke. Yes, right. So it's a great question. They
	really should target it toward students who are in the most
	need of that spending. And many of these dollars are flowing to
	universities based on the proportion of students who are Pell
	eligible, and so there is that built in system in place already
	which was a good step in the right direction I think, a good
	safeguard to put into place.
	But making sure that you know at the university level,
	they're not just giving a blanket across the board aid to every
	student in the institution of you know $1,000.00 or whatever it
	might be, but actually assessing those students who are in need
	at the university level.
	Mr. Comer. Great. Let me shift gears and talk about COVID-
	19 that the health and educational institutions adapt to meet
	the challenges of COVID-19, that the Department of Education
	and Congress provided many of these institutions temporary
	relief from a lot of regulatory burdens.
	Dr. Burke are there any related modified regulations or
	guidance that Congress should re-evaluate as institutions are
	planning for future semesters?
	Ms. Burke. Sure thank you. So as I mentioned earlier I
	think there are a few regulations that are in place that do
	deserve a second look. That elastic clause that I mentioned in
	my opening testimony, I know it sounds like a very specific
	reform, but right now that enables accreditors to layer on
	numerous additional requirements on a university. Just a
	hypothetical, if an accreditor wanted to mandate a dress code,
	it's not outside of the scope of that elastic clause.
	And so removing that clause to keep what accreditors can do
	solely focused on the metrics that are contained within the
	statute of the HEA would be a very good step in the right
	direction.
	Mr. Comer. OK. That's good to know. Dr. Foxx, and Fred
	Keller, and myself are all on the Oversight Committee. We're
	really focused on the regulatory process and the change of
	administration has brought a lot of regulatory changes and
	uncertainty in a lot of different industries and education
	would be right in there.
	So we relaxed a lot of regulations during COVID, and in
	many cases that worked out very well. And I would like to make
	a lot of those relaxed regulations permanent. Obviously, we
	always have to look at the regulatory process, and education is
	no different. So I appreciate that. And Madam Chair I
	appreciate the hearing, and look forward to future hearings,
	and appreciate our witnesses for being here today. I yield
	back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you. And now
	we'll hear from Mr. Bowman of New York, who is the new Vice
	Chair of the full Education and Labor Committee, welcome. Proud
	of you.
	Mr. Bowman. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all the
	witnesses for being here today. My question is for Mr.
	Thornton. I'm going to start with Mr. Thornton. During your
	testimony you mentioned that at one point you didn't feel that
	college was for you, or you didn't feel that you were college
	material. I know I'm paraphrasing here.
	Can you speak to why that was? Like why did you have that
	feeling at that time?
	Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Bowman.
	And the reason why I felt that way, so this was my freshman
	year. And coming into school, honestly, things began to get a
	little rough for me personally, primarily with school, being
	able to maintain the focus on being able to uphold to the
	standard of being able to achieve the school curriculum in
	terms of you know the certain classes, excuse me, that I had to
	take.
	So with that constant pressure, me putting pressure on
	myself and even with outside pressure that was not necessarily
	intentional with three of my sisters are going to college, all
	of them obtaining their master's degrees.
	I personally had some pressure that I felt in myself with
	having to reach those goals and attain that degree. And even
	with being able to not fail, and feeling like I didn't want to
	put my family's money at risk of just being wasted because of
	where I was at.
	So that's kind of the reason as to why. Those are some of
	the thoughts I was having internally as far as being able to
	stay in school.
	Mr. Bowman. Yes I know what you mean. I have three sisters
	as well, and raised by a single mom. So I know the pressure
	that the women in our lives put on us.
	Mr. Thornton. Yes.
	Mr. Bowman. To reach their standard. So how did you
	overcome it? You know what did the university provide to you in
	terms of advisers, in terms of academic support, what have you,
	how did you overcome that pressure and that feeling that you
	didn't belong? And how were you able to set yourself right?
	Mr. Thornton. Yes of course. So when it came down to
	referring whether I did, it took me having to speak up, rather
	than waiting for something or for someone to come to me and ask
	me how I was doing. So it took me reaching out to, as I
	mentioned, you know, a TRIO program instructor, Ms. Tiffany
	Tyler, who has played a huge role in my life, reaching out to
	her, speaking to her about some of these things.
	Her guiding me and really encouraging me to continue to
	push forward, and even my counterparts, my peers within the
	university. I've built long-lasting relationship through the
	TRIO program as I've mentioned 5000 Role Models as well.
	And even you know I'm part of a club here on campus as
	well. Having those people in my life, and just speaking and
	sharing my heart, sharing my life with them. There are times
	where I was able to do homework with them, study with them, and
	it really just pushed me to stay in school to think about the
	future, the ways in which I can have an impact in the world
	with a degree.
	So you know having people in my life was a huge component
	of me deciding that this is something that I can do, and
	something that I will do, and that's kind of you know pushed me
	to where I am today getting ready to graduate. So that's been a
	huge motivator for me.
	Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much for sharing that. You're an
	inspiration to me personally, and to all of us, so please keep
	going brother. I appreciate you. Chancellor Oakley, since the
	onset of COVID-19 there has been an increased demand from
	mental health services as students deal with trauma, and
	economic and health crises, in addition to managing their
	school work.
	Chancellor, how have your institutions managed this
	increased need?
	Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. The
	mental health toll that the pandemic and the economic fallout
	has taken on our students has been significant. Many of them
	are in communities where we have had not only the economic
	impact of COVID-19, the health impacts because many of those
	communities lacked access to quality healthcare, but also the
	racial reckoning that has gripped this country, happens in the
	communities that we serve.
	So all those things have come together. We have been
	working with the Newsom administration and our legislature to
	gain access to resources that help fund mental health services.
	Our legislature has provided some of those resources. We are
	working with counties and cities to share resources, to make
	sure that our students have access to those mental health
	resources, but they are only a drop in the bucket.
	And this is an area where Congress also has been helpful
	because some of those relief funds have been used to provide
	that kind of assistance, that kind of support to our students
	who need it critically right now for them to continue their
	education.
	Mr. Bowman. Thank you for that. Mr. Zibel, though
	enrollment is trending down at community colleges, the reverse
	is true for for-profit colleges. While for-profit colleges saw
	substantial and consistent enrollment drops in the years
	leading up to the pandemic, the sections enrollment spiked up
	last fall.
	This appears to be a pattern as for-profit colleges have
	saw a similar enrollment spike after the Great Recession. Do
	you have any concerns with these trends, and what lessons can
	we learn from the years following the Great Recession?
	Chairwoman Wilson. Mr. Vice Chair your time is up.
	Mr. Bowman. Oh sorry, thank you.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Someone else--he'll probably
	answer it in another question from another Member. Thank you so
	much. We'll now go to Ms. Spartz of Indiana.
	Ms. Spartz. Thank you Madam Chair. I just have a question
	to all the panel. You know we all agree we have a lot of
	problems and challenges in higher ed. I was a college faculty
	myself, and I also taught in public accounting college. It was
	a national team, a trainer for several other accounting firms.
	We had a lot of talk, a lot of discussions, a lot of different
	performances, so I understand it.
	We need to have better return on investment, following
	investments in human capital. Colleges need to have skin in the
	game, and we need to have better outcomes, not worthless
	diplomas, none of that, inflated grades and all these things
	and now the kids are not ready to life-long learning.
	So my question is we had lots of talk, lots of discussion,
	proposal but nothing ever gets done. So my question is, and
	I'll start with Dr. Burke, is there any prospects where
	actually something gets done, or we'll be discussing for next
	10 years how we're going to reform higher ed and nothing is
	going to happen.
	So what are your thoughts on the prospect of anything
	happening in the near future.
	Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
	Spartz. So I think the prospect for reforms like moving on
	either short-term Pell, or enabling students to use their Title
	IV funds for shorter term courses. I think the prospects are
	pretty good for that in terms of bipartisan support overall.
	There are, of course, some inherent concerns with some of
	these proposals that you don't increase spending overall on
	these programs when you enable those dollars to flow to shorter
	term courses, but I think that there are ways to structure
	those reforms to make sure that the cap remains tight, but
	still enable students to have more flexibility and to make
	those dollars more nimble.
	Ms. Spartz. But I'm talking about better outcomes in all
	postsecondary education, so having real reform when we
	understand that you know, we should bring some value right? If
	we're going to invest in human capital, and use taxpayers money
	particularly to do that, we need to have a return on
	investment.
	And colleges need to have skin in the game, and they
	shouldn't be piling up all this debt on these kids, a lot of
	them, with no jobs right? Because I only care if you have a
	job, and you have some meaningful employment that it brings
	some value.
	So is there any prospect of having that ever accomplished?
	Ms. Burke. So I do think that there is some agreement that
	in general the current metrics for example, the cohort default
	rate, are just really not cutting it in terms of providing the
	data that we need and the, you know, oversight that we need for
	some of these institutions.
	And so there are conversations that are happening about
	changing that metric to something maybe closer to a
	programmatic default rate that could work better. There is
	still going to be problems inherent in that approach as well,
	and so to my mind it all comes back to the fact that we are
	even having this conversation because Federal taxpayers are
	implicated, and financing so much of the higher education
	system today.
	So winding down the debt in the student loan program, I
	think is a necessary precondition for reigning in costs and
	providing some needed accountability.
	Ms. Spartz. Yes our colleges do have to have skin in the
	game too.
	Ms. Burke. Yes.
	Ms. Spartz. So I'm sure. Dr. And Mr. Zibel and Mr. Oakley,
	and maybe Mr. Thornton quickly. Do you think there is any
	prospect of meaningful reform in the near future? Yes, no,
	because I'm not sure how much time I have left.
	Mr. Zibel. I actually think there is Congresswoman, and
	especially you know if you talk about skin in the game, and
	making sure that there's value.
	I think one of the most important things that
	administration can do is bring back the Gainful Employment
	Rule, which was designed to solve exactly the kind of problems
	that you were just referring to where students are graduating
	from programs without any prospect of employment in
	relationship to the amount of debt that they are taking.
	Secretary DeVos repealed that rule. And you know I'm
	hopeful that the Department of Education can bring it back, and
	actually give it time to work going forward.
	Ms. Spartz. Mr. Oakley?
	Mr. Oakley. Short answer is yes. I see a lot of reform
	happening. The fact that you have a person from a community
	college testifying today means that things are changing, that
	we are recognizing the value that institutions like community
	colleges provide to the country. So I'm very hopeful and I see
	a lot of change in California.
	Ms. Spartz. OK. Well hopefully we'll stay optimistic and
	get some hope. Mr. Thornton what do you think? You're probably
	new to all this.
	Mr. Thornton. Yes I definitely am new to all this. But I
	would say that I do have hope and faith that there will be a
	change moving forward in the future. I'm excited to see how
	things continue to grow and to progress as Mr. Oakley attested
	to. You know, him coming from a community college background I
	think is amazing just to see him here now, and just even having
	that same dream and hope for other people that were in his
	position.
	So I definitely feel good moving forward to see some
	changes in America.
	Ms. Spartz. OK thank you. I will stay hopeful, and I'll
	yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. And a
	veteran Member of the committee now, I yield to Mr. Pocan. How
	are you, Wisconsin.
	Mr. Pocan. Very good thank you Madam Chair, and I
	appreciate. Thanks to the witnesses, and my apologies to
	everyone for coming back and forth. Every vote we have is 45
	minutes. Unfortunately, we have about 100 colleagues who have
	not been vaccinated so we can't shorten the time period, and
	it's chaotic because of it. So my apologies up front.
	A very quick yes/no question Dr. Burke. I'm hoping, I'm not
	sure if I heard something right. Were you just talking about
	winding down the student loan programs? Is that a yes or no in
	the near future?
	Ms. Burke. Yes.
	Mr. Pocan. OK yes. Thank you. I'll move on. So Mr.
	Thornton. I was someone who when I went to school I grew up in
	a lower middle class family, got lots of student loans, Pell
	Grants, things that Ms. Burke apparently doesn't like.
	And that's why I was able to go to college, and get a
	degree and appreciate, you know, what you're talking about
	right now and the support that you got. I think also part of
	the testimony was that all this money went to the
	administrative ether at universities, but I assume you like me,
	don't consider our lives administrative ether.
	You talked a little bit in your opening remarks about how
	some of the support from the programs that we've done with
	COVID helped you very directly to be able to continue to be
	able to go to school. Can you talk a little more, just a little
	more about that, or about any friend's stories also that have
	been helped because of the programs that Congress did around
	COVID?
	Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Pocan.
	And I could speak for myself personally, kind of like what I
	mentioned as far as the last semester, the fall semester that
	just passed. Me initially having a job, me being able to take
	care of myself financially, whether it be with school expenses,
	or expenses outside of school whether it was rent or bills.
	Me losing my job put me in a position to where I just
	really had to take a lot from my personal savings, so with the
	funding that was provided I was able to provide for myself in
	different ways, primarily with school and you know school
	materials.
	And in addition to that things outside of school. So the
	funding that was provided definitely played a huge role in my
	life personally, and you know I could definitely speak about
	that for sure.
	Mr. Pocan. Thank you. What's your major by the way? I don't
	know if I caught that because we're always back and forth. I
	didn't catch that.
	Mr. Thornton. Oh yes of course. My major is recreation and
	sports management.
	Mr. Pocan. Awesome. Well I wish you great fortune with
	that, and thanks so much for being here and sharing your
	stories. A question for Chancellor Oakley. You know we just had
	a staff assistant position open in my office. We got 330
	applications for it, and we noticed a lot of them graduated in
	May 2020 and have not had a job since then, obviously because
	of COVID.
	Is there anything that universities are doing, or should be
	doing to kind of help that student, that this year has been an
	incredibly tough year? Many of them probably are living back
	home because we noticed the addresses are from around the
	country. But what can we do to help those students, because you
	know, I'm glad that they were able to get the education, but I
	know the next connecting step is to a good job.
	Mr. Oakley. So very quickly. I mean working with employers,
	working with industries to provide for some type of paid
	internship I think is critical for all college graduates to
	have the opportunity to get into the workforce as soon as
	things start to open up.
	It's critically important that college students have access
	to have the skills that they need, but also in terms of what
	they need to do the work, but how to exist in a place of
	employment. So I think we need to double our efforts to help
	students get some sort of workforce opportunity, internship or
	other paid workforce training.
	Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you. And then a final followup if I
	can because I have to go to vote on this series now. It has to
	do with Dr. Burke's question that we need to wind down our
	financial aid programs, that there's just too much of a largess
	out there.
	Mr. Oakley. Well I think we agree on the umbrella which is
	there is too much debt. I do think that we need to continue to
	improve the amount of resources that we're providing to the
	lowest income Americans and help them pay for the cost of
	attending college which continues to increase.
	Mr. Pocan. And that includes more Pell I would assume.
	Mr. Oakley. Absolutely.
	Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you very much. I yield back Madam
	Chair.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. According to my
	records Ms. Harshbarger of Tennessee you can go on the record.
	Mr. Fulcher of Idaho? Ms. Stefanik of New York? Mr. Banks of
	Indiana? Ms. Omar of Minnesota.
	Ms. Omar. Thank you very much chairwoman, and thanks to all
	our witnesses for joining us. To Mr. Pocan's point it's been a
	really busy day, so I do apologize if some of the questions I
	ask have already been asked of you. Even before the COVID-19
	pandemic hit, there were many students who were struggling to
	cover the cost of basic needs like housing, food and childcare.
	The COVID-19 pandemic has added to many of the hurdles
	faced by minority and low-income students working to complete
	their college educations. And these challenges are compounded
	for student parents.
	A recent report including the GAO study, has highlighted
	the challenges that a student parents face in terms of college
	persistence and completion. Madam Chair I request unanimous
	consent to enter this into the record.
	Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
	Ms. Omar. Chancellor Oakley, how have child center closures
	affected the ability of student parents to remain in school?
	Mr. Oakley. This has had a devastating effect on our
	students, and thank you for that question Congresswoman. This
	has had a devastating effect. So many of our students in the
	California community colleges, and this is true of community
	colleges across the Nation, are working parents.
	And so lack of access to childcare, and the fact that so
	many of them have had their children in their household having
	to work on educating them remotely, sharing Wi-Fi with them,
	all of these have created challenges that have made it very
	difficult for working parents to continue their education.
	Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. I was a working parent when I
	completed my college education, and so I'm wondering if there
	is any support that colleges are providing currently to this
	vulnerable student group, and if you have any recommendations
	for Congress to provide support.
	Mr. Oakley. Well I think right now the most important thing
	to do is to provide these working parents, these students,
	direct emergency support. They need economic support right now,
	so that when they're making choices about whether to feed their
	family, or to continue to enroll in college, we don't force
	them into those choices.
	So I think we need them to participate in the economy. We
	need them to complete their education, so I think investing
	directly in supporting these working students is critical to
	our future, and to an equitable recovery.
	Ms. Omar. And how do you see the creation of an environment
	that does set these students up for success post-COVID?
	Mr. Oakley. So I think it's critical that we work with
	employers, that we work with labor organizations that support
	these working parents to focus on insuring that we provide what
	they need to get into jobs that pay a livable wage so they can
	support their families.
	Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. Madam Chair I will yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I see Mr. Fulcher
	from Idaho's camera on. I'm not sure if he is available? We'll
	go now to Ms. Sherrill of New Jersey? Mr. Espaillat of New
	York? Mr. Grijalva of Arizona? And a true, true veteran of the
	Education Committee Mr. Courtney of Connecticut, he's here.
	Mr. Courtney. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson, and thank you to
	all the witnesses. Keith, your testimony has been really
	stellar, and you know, congratulations to you and the Chairman
	for the great work that you and her work in terms of you know,
	creating these kinds of pathways for young people.
	Mr. Zibel I have actually been watching a little bit out of
	the corner of my eye during the hearing. Chairman Powell from
	the Federal Reserve is sort of giving his sort of update
	regarding the economy, and announced that again, the sort of
	low interest rate, zero percent policy--monetary policy, of the
	Federal Reserve is actually going to continue through 2023.
	I mean a very I think, you know forceful policy position to
	keep borrowing costs down. And as we know, you know, for the
	last year that's been the policy, and people in the private
	sector have benefited greatly from it. You know residential
	property owners, credit card debt, car loan debt, but you know
	the one form of debt that is still stuck with the higher
	interest rates is student loan debt.
	And you know President Biden's pause, which is a good thing
	in terms of helping people's cash-flow, who are student loan
	borrowers, that expires at the end of September 2021. And so,
	you know, potentially you know those higher interest rates are
	going to snap back into place.
	Again, even if there is student loan forgiveness of
	$10,000.00 or $50,000.00, there's still going to be a lot of
	debt left over there. And so you know I was wondering if you
	could sort of talk about it from a consumer point of view. I
	mean the only decisionmaker that can change that is Congress.
	That's pretty well understood as the President really is
	not a unilateral authority under the Higher Education
	Authorization to cut rates by himself, and we've done that a
	number of times over you know the time that Frederica and I
	have been in Congress.
	You know it just seems like it screams out for action by
	Congress not to let these interest rates snap back, and first
	to do something about taking advantage of the low interest rate
	environment. And I was wondering if you could comment on that.
	Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Congressman. It's an excellent
	question and I should caveat this was you know I'm not an
	economist. I'm a lawyer. But you know, just as a matter of
	principle I think that everything you are saying makes a lot of
	sense. There is no reason why student loan borrowers should be
	saddled with higher interest rates than you know, other
	financial products.
	I think Congress would be well to look at reforms to the
	Bankruptcy Code. Student loans are not dischargeable in
	bankruptcy for the most part, and that is something that I
	think both the administration and Congress could be taking a
	look at to really try and bring relief to borrowers who are
	struggling so immensely right now.
	Mr. Courtney. Well thank you. Again we've tried actually in
	the last few Congresses, myself, Frederica and others have you
	know cosponsored bills to bring down the interest rates. And
	again, given Chairman Powell's announcement today, I mean it
	really is more than high time for us to move out and create
	some parody in terms of lending costs for people with student
	loan debt.
	And you know Mr. Oakley, I don't know if you have any sort
	of comment on that. I realize maybe you know the interest rate
	issue for current students is not as urgent, but certainly you
	know, later in life it could really pose a real hindrance on
	their success.
	Mr. Oakley. Well absolutely. I mean all the things that
	were just mentioned, and I certainly support Mr. Zibel's
	characterization of the challenge. We need Congress to act to
	support students who do have to take out these loans by
	reducing the interest rate, by allowing them to go through
	bankruptcy court.
	So these are issues that saddle our students for decades.
	And in many ways keep them from participating meaningful in the
	American economy, and from creating wealth.
	Mr. Courtney. Great. Well thank you. You know just to share
	with the committee and the witnesses, I had a constituent who
	emailed the other day about a student loan bill that he
	received, which again was paying 7.8 percent interest. Again,
	totally trapped.
	And there was a warning quote in there that only the U.S.
	Congress can lower that rate. Because you know I'm sure that
	the loan servicer is getting bombarded with questions about why
	do I still have to pay 7.8 percent interest when you know,
	everything else is you know close to zero.
	And I think you know they're basically saying call your
	Congressman. So hopefully, you know, more people will talk
	about that, because it really is something that we as a
	committee should take a look at. And with that I yield back
	Madam Chairwoman.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you very much. Mr. Fulcher I see
	from Idaho, I see you back and forth. You are on camera. You're
	next. Mr. Fulcher are you going to join us? If not we'll go to
	Ms. Bonamici.
	Ms. Bonamici. Thank you Madam Chair. And thank you to all
	the witnesses. In particular, I want to thank Mr. Thornton.
	Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It's really
	helpful for us to learn from. I also want to not let it go
	unsaid that there are with regard to Dr. Burke's comments about
	limiting borrowing based on someone's course of study, multiple
	issues and problems with that, particularly from the equity
	perspective.
	And very subjective who makes that decision, and you know,
	just take a look someday at what philosophy majors make.
	They're very successful because they know how to think
	critically, and employers are looking for skills like empathy
	and teamwork, and problem solving. Those are all things that
	come from studying broad fields, including the humanities.
	So I want to turn to Chancellor Oakley. Nice to see you
	again. We know there are serious inequities in higher
	education, and that's true in Oregon and across the country
	even before the COVID-19 pandemic, and students were already
	struggling to cover not just the cost of tuition, but we know
	other expenses, housing, transportation, childcare, food.
	Now there are unexpected costs because of the pandemic
	adding to it. And particularly for community college students
	like I was, these costs are significantly higher than the costs
	of tuition. So Chancellor Oakley, recent reports including a
	GAO study have highlighted food and housing insecurity, and I
	have spoken with college students, particularly community
	college students in Oregon about this.
	I'd like to enter the GAO report into the record Madam
	Chair.
	Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
	Ms. Bonamici. Thank you. So Chancellor, how are the
	California community colleges providing for example, case
	management and services to low-income students, and how are you
	connecting them with resources like those that are available
	through SNAP, WIC and TANF? And how are you making sure the
	students access those resources while they're not physically on
	campus?
	Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
	Bonamici. You are absolutely right. There was a huge crisis in
	our system before the pandemic. We saw record amounts of food
	insecurity. Record amounts of housing insecurity and the
	pandemic has significantly exacerbated the problem.
	So we have been working first and foremost, we are a
	community college, we are working with cities, with non-profit
	institutions, in localities where we exist in providing support
	for our students.
	We've provided support for technology, for food through
	food pantries, and things of that nature. We've also worked
	with our legislature and Governor Newsom to provide emergency
	aid. Just a few weeks ago the legislature passed an emergency
	action package that provides emergency support directly to
	students, which will support their needs for food and housing
	insecurity, as well as mental health services and other things
	that are impacting them right now.
	We've also continued to advocate to you all, to Congress,
	and to this new administration of the need to provide this
	direct emergency support. I understand----
	Ms. Bonamici. Chancellor, I don't want to interrupt but I--
	--
	Mr. Oakley. That's quite all right.
	Ms. Bonamici. ----I have a consumer protection background,
	so I absolutely must get a question in for Mr. Zibel. Thank you
	so much for being here. The Obama administration as you know,
	established the Borrower Defense Rule to streamline the process
	for students to assert their right to loan forgiveness when
	they're defrauded by the institution.
	Unfortunately, the Trump administration failed to implement
	the rule and give students the relief they deserve. So what can
	the Biden administration do immediately to address the problems
	with Borrower Defense that were created by the past
	administration?
	Mr. Zibel. Sure. Thank you for the question. There is a lot
	the department can do, and I think most immediately it's taking
	the issue seriously, providing relief, 100 percent relief to
	the borrowers who it has already determined to have been
	defrauded by a predatory college.
	There is simply no excuse at this point in time for the
	department dragging its heels on that. I want to, you know the
	consequences for these borrowers, it's devastating for them for
	an economic impact, housing impact, mental health impacts.
	But the other point that I want to emphasize on this is
	that these are borrowers who really feel like not only did
	their school fail them, but their government failed them. Their
	government failed them by putting a seal of approval on these
	schools, leading them down a path, and then not giving
	forgiveness, even though they've already made sufficient
	findings to do so.
	Ms. Bonamici. In my remaining few seconds, just to followup
	on that. Some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
	were talking about complaining about what they call
	administrative bloat. But actually some of the worst bloat I'm
	aware of is when colleges use Federal funds to advertise for
	perspective students.
	Recent data indicates that colleges spend 730 million
	dollars on advertising and degree granting for-profit
	institutions, and that's you know 40 percent of all higher
	education advertising spending for just 6 percent of the
	students, so that is something that I would say is
	administrative bloat we should be looking at is what the for-
	profits institutions are doing to try to recruit on often-times
	students.
	So I see my time is over, and I yield back. Thank you Madam
	Chair.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. You have a lot of seniority
	but your time is up. And now Mr. Scott, esteemed Chairman of
	the entire committee on Education and Labor. Do you want to
	close us out?
	Mr. Scott. I'll try. Thank you very much. Let me first ask
	Ms. Burke you mentioned we talked about short-term Pell's, but
	I think there's a consensus that this is a good idea. The only
	caveat we have is people open up little storefronts and
	stealing all the money, dealing out worthless credentials.
	We want to limit those privately to community colleges, and
	referrals from job training, workforce investment, Opportunity
	Act boards. Do you think that would be sufficient to keep these
	in the hands of those that are actually using them well?
	Ms. Burke. I think coupled with some State accreditation
	reform efforts as in enabling states to make some determination
	about which industries within their state could provide those
	short-term courses. I think that would be a good step in the
	right direction to actually push it down to the State level,
	that oversight role, in terms of quality assurance of these
	programs.
	Mr. Scott. Thank you. And let me ask Dr. Oakley. We have a
	lot of suggestions on how to spend a lot of money on colleges,
	and could you give us an idea of your priorities talking about
	either free college, or free community college, double the Pell
	Grant, loan discharge programs like public service loan
	forgiveness, a borrower defense, or income contingent, or
	discharging loans $10,000.00 or $50,000.00, or eliminate
	interest on loans.
	Could you tell us what we ought to be looking at first?
	Mr. Oakley. Thank you Mr. Chair. First of all I mean all of
	those issues are important issues to our students, but for us I
	mean first and foremost allowing students to pay for the total
	cost of attending college is critical, so that they can attend
	full-time, so that they can complete their education and get
	into the workforce.
	So things like doubling Pell is critically important. Free
	community college is certainly important, so that the funds
	that you make available can be spent on the total cost of
	attending college. And then finally I'd say supporting
	colleges, community colleges in particular to reach out to
	displaced workers, and helping get the skills that they need to
	get back into the workforce.
	Mr. Scott. We've heard a couple of comments about the
	interest rates. What about significantly reducing, or even
	eliminating interest. Why is the Federal Government charging
	people interest? We ought to be subsidizing loans, not using it
	as a profit center.
	Mr. Oakley. Well I would certainly agree that a low or no
	interest loans to our students who are struggling and who need
	that support to get into the economy is a very important step
	that Congress could take.
	Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Zibel during the Obama
	administration the Department of Education worked with the
	State law enforcement agencies, especially attorneys general to
	investigate and hold for-profit colleges accountable. Can you
	talk about what happened during the last 4 years, and whether
	or not executives at for-profit colleges should be held
	personally liable for misconduct, or financial losses to
	students and taxpayers?
	Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. Look, the Department of
	Education has to be working alongside State and other Federal
	partners. This should not be an adversarial relationship, as I
	think it has been over the past 4 years. In terms of
	institutional enforcement I see what the Department of
	Education did in the Corinthian colleges matter.
	It's a real example of when the department worked alongside
	the office of then Attorney General Kamala Harris to bring an
	enforcement action, and take an action against one of the most
	predatory actors.
	When schools are closing, the department has to be working
	with states to make sure that student needs are met in terms of
	transfers, and transcript availability and basic needs around
	housing.
	So I think that is a real important step that the
	department has to be taking going forward. In terms of personal
	liability, I think I mentioned a little bit earlier,
	absolutely. This is not a proposal that we have come up with.
	This is not a proposal that must have been developed in the
	past year or two, this is something that Congress put into the
	Higher Education Act about 30 years ago.
	And you know President George H.W. Bush signed it into law.
	It was passed by a bipartisan Congress. And I think that the
	concept is really simple. That when there are institutions that
	cause losses to students and taxpayers, they should be held
	accountable, and the individuals that directed that conduct
	should be held accountable.
	The Securities and Exchange Commission for example does it
	even for for-profit college executives about protecting
	investors. But for some reason the Department of Education has
	not done that to protect students.
	So this is about deterring misconduct. If you know that you
	personally may have to write a check at the end of the day, you
	are probably going to be a lot better of a steward of a
	taxpayer and student funds.
	Mr. Scott. Thank you. And thank you Madam Chair. And I want
	to thank Keith for being with us today. He's certainly an
	example of why we're here. And certainly, a shining example of
	why the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence are so important. So
	thank you Keith for being with us today.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much Mr. Chair.
	I remind my colleagues that pursuant to committee practice,
	materials for submission of the hearing record must be
	submitted to the Committee Clerk within 14 days following the
	last day of the hearing.
	So by close of business on March 31, 2021 preferably in
	Microsoft Word format. The materials submitted must address the
	subject matter of the hearing. Only a Member of the
	subcommittee, or an invited witness may submit materials for
	inclusion in the hearing record.
	Documents are limited to 50 pages each. Documents longer
	than 50 pages will be incorporated into the record by way of an
	internet link that you must provide to the Committee Clerk
	within the required timeframe.
	But please recognize that in the future that link may no
	longer work. Pursuant to House rules and regulations, items for
	the record must be submitted to the Clerk electronically by
	email submissions to <a href="/cdn-cgi/l/email-protection" class="__cf_email__" data-cfemail="2a4f4e4b444e464b48455804424f4b5843444d596a474b43465e424f42455f594f044d455c">[email protected]</a>.
	Members are encouraged to submit materials to the inbox
	before the hearing, or during the hearing at the time the
	Member makes the request. Again, I want to thank the witnesses
	for their participation today. Keith you have made FIU, Miami-
	Dade County Public Schools so proud.
	We love you. 5,000 Role Models love you. We are 5,000. I
	want to thank you, all of the witnesses. You were absolutely
	stupendous. You did a great job at our committee today. Members
	of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for each
	of you and we ask the witnesses to please respond to those
	questions in writing.
	The hearing record will be held open for 14 days in order
	to receive those responses. I remind my colleagues that
	pursuant to committee practice witness questions for the
	hearing record, must be submitted to the Majority Committee
	Staff or Committee Clerk within 7 days. The questions submitted
	must address the subject matter of the hearing.
	We're now into closing statements. I recognize the
	Distinguished Ranking Member for a closing statement, Dr.
	Murphy who is a medical doctor.
	Mr. Murphy. Thank you Ms. Representative Wilson. I want to
	thank you especially, but also thank the committee Members and
	the panelists. I think this was an excellent, excellent
	meeting, and a lot of good issues discussed.
	And I think there was a lot of lessons learned today. Both
	Democrats and Republicans, I think we agree. We agree very
	plainly that our postsecondary education system is in need of
	reform. I mean I think that I can say that without any doubt.
	Everybody knows that things have got a little bit out of hand.
	Where the reform may be, may be in question, and difference
	of opinion about and amongst the panelists and the committee,
	but I think reform my all means is a consensus statement.
	College costs are obviously way too high, and continue to
	rise. We simply cannot continue the rise of college costs as
	they are today. We are bankrupting our students. We are doing a
	disservice to our taxpayers. We simply cannot allow that.
	Graduation rates are low, honestly embarrassingly low.
	I look at some institutions 6 year graduation rates are in
	the teens, and that's not acceptable. We're doing a disservice
	to those students, and again to the taxpayers. Employers are
	finding recent graduates, college graduates, ill-prepared for
	college success. And that burden rests solely on our educators.
	If these kids are paying so much and mortgaging their
	future, our educators have the burden of making sure that
	they're prepared and that their money was well-spent. You don't
	continue the status quo. You don't continue to pour money into
	programs that have been proven failures. They're not failing
	because of lack of money. They're failing because they were bad
	and poorly designed programs.
	Congress acted quickly last year in a bipartisan fashion to
	help the sector deal with the pandemic. I was very, very proud
	to be a Member of Congress at that time because we saw the
	American people, and we saw institutions in America as needing
	our help and we got together in a bipartisan manner.
	Most recently, not so bipartisan, and that's in my opinion,
	a real shame that that occurred. But now Congress has to turn
	to long-term issues. The Higher Education Act is in dire need
	of reform to better serve our students. The disaster, and I
	spoke about this earlier, of the rise of administrative bloat
	must be reversed.
	We cannot continue pouring money into institutions that do
	not use it toward education and preparing our students for
	success and lifelong learning. Some policy solutions have been
	presented at the hearing, eliminate the Grad Plus Program,
	allow institutions to limit borrowing on a programmatic basis,
	an entrance into the marketplace by enabling short-term Pell
	Grants and reforming the accreditation system, and also--and a
	recent topic, I think reforming the interest rates on these
	loans. By all means, I think that needs to be done, especially
	with what we're talking about with zero rates.
	I don't think loan forgiveness. All you're doing is passing
	that on to individuals who actually paid for their education,
	who actually worked for their education, I don't think that is
	appropriate.
	Not all of the ideas are bipartisan, by all means. But I
	want to encourage the subcommittee to work to find workable
	solutions under Madam Wilson's leadership, and I have pledged
	to work together in a bipartisan manner for us to actually do
	what's great for our students and what's good for their
	success. Thank you Madam Chairman I will yield back.
	Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you Doctor. I now
	recognize myself for the purpose of making my closing
	statement. I want to again thank our expert witnesses for
	joining our subcommittee's first hearing of this Congress, and
	for your testimonies.
	Our discussion today made clear that the relief funding we
	provided for higher education over the last year has been
	critical to helping both institutions and students weather the
	Coronavirus pandemic. But we were also reminded that both
	Congress and the Biden administration have much work to do to
	ensure underserved students are not left behind in our recovery
	from this pandemic.
	Securing relief funding alone is a disservice to the
	students. We must take bold steps to strengthen student
	protections and expand access to student aid, so that we build
	back a better higher education system for everyone.
	This committee has a great responsibility to not only help
	our higher education system survive this pandemic, but also
	ensure that all students across this Nation have access, if
	they want it, to a college degree that leads to a rewarding
	career. I look forward to working with my colleagues to achieve
	this ultimate goal.
	If there is no further business before this committee
	without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. And thank
	you so much for joining us.
	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	[Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

	[all]
	</pre><script data-cfasync="false" src="/cdn-cgi/scripts/5c5dd728/cloudflare-static/email-decode.min.js"></script></body></html>