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| <title> - OVERSIGHT HEARING ON PROMOTING CONSERVATION WITH A PURPOSE ON AMERICA'S FEDERAL LANDS AND FORESTS</title> | |
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| [House Hearing, 118 Congress] | |
| [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] | |
| PROMOTING CONSERVATION WITH A | |
| PURPOSE ON AMERICA'S FEDERAL | |
| LANDS AND FORESTS | |
| ======================================================================= | |
| OVERSIGHT HEARING | |
| BEFORE THE | |
| SUBCOMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LANDS | |
| OF THE | |
| COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES | |
| U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES | |
| ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS | |
| FIRST SESSION | |
| __________ | |
| Wednesday, March 8, 2023 | |
| __________ | |
| Serial No. 118-7 | |
| __________ | |
| Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources | |
| [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] | |
| Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov | |
| or | |
| Committee address: http://naturalresources.house.gov | |
| __________ | |
| U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE | |
| 51-479 PDF WASHINGTON : 2023 | |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES | |
| BRUCE WESTERMAN, AR, Chairman | |
| DOUG LAMBORN, CO, Vice Chairman | |
| RAUL M. GRIJALVA, AZ, Ranking Member | |
| Doug Lamborn, CO Grace F. Napolitano, CA | |
| Robert J. Wittman, VA Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, | |
| Tom McClintock, CA CNMI | |
| Paul Gosar, AZ Jared Huffman, CA | |
| Garret Graves, LA Ruben Gallego, AZ | |
| Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS Joe Neguse, CO | |
| Doug LaMalfa, CA Mike Levin, CA | |
| Daniel Webster, FL Katie Porter, CA | |
| Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, PR Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM | |
| Russ Fulcher, ID Melanie A. Stansbury, NM | |
| Pete Stauber, MN Mary Sattler Peltola, AK | |
| John R. Curtis, UT Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, NY | |
| Tom Tiffany, WI Kevin Mullin, CA | |
| Jerry Carl, AL Val T. Hoyle, OR | |
| Matt Rosendale, MT Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA | |
| Lauren Boebert, CO Seth Magaziner, RI | |
| Cliff Bentz, OR Nydia M. Velazquez, NY | |
| Jen Kiggans, VA Ed Case, HI | |
| Jim Moylan, GU Debbie Dingell, MI | |
| Wesley P. Hunt, TX Susie Lee, NV | |
| Mike Collins, GA | |
| Anna Paulina Luna, FL | |
| John Duarte, CA | |
| Harriet M. Hageman, WY | |
| Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director | |
| Tom Connally, Chief Counsel | |
| Lora Snyder, Democratic Staff Director | |
| http://naturalresources.house.gov | |
| ------ | |
| SUBCOMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LANDS | |
| TOM TIFFANY, WI, Chairman | |
| JOHN R. CURTIS, UT, Vice Chair | |
| JOE NEGUSE, CO, Ranking Member | |
| Doug Lamborn, CO Katie Porter, CA | |
| Tom McClintock, CA Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA | |
| Russ Fulcher, ID Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, | |
| Pete Stauber, MN CNMI | |
| John R. Curtis, UT Mike Levin, CA | |
| Cliff Bentz, OR Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM | |
| Jen Kiggans, VA Mary Sattler Peltola, AK | |
| Jim Moylan, GU Raul M. Grijalva, AZ, ex officio | |
| Bruce Westerman, AR, ex officio | |
| ---------- | |
| CONTENTS | |
| ---------- | |
| Page | |
| Hearing held on Wednesday, March 8, 2023......................... 1 | |
| Statement of Members: | |
| Tiffany, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the | |
| State of Wisconsin......................................... 1 | |
| Prepared statement of.................................... 3 | |
| Neguse, Hon. Joe, a Representative in Congress from the State | |
| of Colorado................................................ 4 | |
| Statement of Witnesses: | |
| Ferry, Hon. Joel, Executive Director, Utah Department of | |
| Natural Resources, Salt Lake City, Utah.................... 7 | |
| Prepared statement of.................................... 8 | |
| Espy, Hon. John, Commissioner, Board of Carbon County | |
| Commissioners, Rawlins, Wyoming............................ 12 | |
| Prepared statement of.................................... 13 | |
| Leshy, John D., Distinguished Professor Emeritus, University | |
| of California Law, San Francisco, California............... 16 | |
| Prepared statement of.................................... 17 | |
| Rigdon, Phil, Superintendent, Department of Natural | |
| Resources, Yakama Nation; and Vice President, Inter-Tribal | |
| Timber Council............................................. 24 | |
| Prepared statement of.................................... 26 | |
| Additional Materials Submitted for the Record: | |
| Submission for the Record by Representative Lamborn | |
| Deseret News article, Ute Indian Tribe calls Biden's | |
| Colorado national monument designation `an unlawful act | |
| of genocide', October 13, 2022, by Kyle Dunphey........ 31 | |
| OVERSIGHT HEARING ON PROMOTING CONSERVATION WITH A PURPOSE ON AMERICA'S | |
| FEDERAL LANDS AND FORESTS | |
| ---------- | |
| Wednesday, March 8, 2023 | |
| U.S. House of Representatives | |
| Subcommittee on Federal Lands | |
| Committee on Natural Resources | |
| Washington, DC | |
| ---------- | |
| The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., in | |
| Room 1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Tom Tiffany | |
| [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. | |
| Present: Representatives Tiffany, Lamborn, McClintock, | |
| Fulcher, Stauber, Curtis, Kiggans, Hageman; Neguse, Porter, | |
| Kamlager-Dove, Sablan, and Hoyle. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear | |
| testimony on promoting conservation with a purpose on America's | |
| Federal lands and forests. | |
| I ask unanimous consent that the gentlewoman from Wyoming, | |
| Ms. Hageman, the gentlewoman from Oregon, Ms. Hoyle, and the | |
| gentleman from Utah, Mr. Moore, be allowed to participate in | |
| today's hearing from the dais. | |
| Without objection, so ordered. | |
| Under Committee Rule 4(f), any oral opening statements at | |
| hearings are limited to the Chairman and the Ranking Minority | |
| Member. | |
| I, therefore, ask unanimous consent that all other Members' | |
| opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they | |
| are submitted in accordance with Committee Rule 3(o). | |
| Without objection, so ordered. | |
| I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. | |
| STATEMENT OF THE HON. TOM TIFFANY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS | |
| FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN | |
| Mr. Tiffany. First of all, it is a great privilege to be | |
| able to chair the Subcommittee on Federal Lands. I want to | |
| thank the Chairman of the Committee, Mr. Westerman, for having | |
| the confidence to allow me to do that. | |
| And I look forward to working with the Ranking Member here, | |
| Mr. Neguse, to have a vibrant, good debate in what staff is | |
| telling me is one of the busiest Subcommittees in Natural | |
| Resources, and I really look forward to that. | |
| I want to take this opportunity to welcome all of our | |
| Members returning anew, and I am excited to work with all of | |
| you this Congress as we address the many pressing issues | |
| affecting our Federal lands and forests. | |
| The topic of today's hearing is ``Promoting Conservation | |
| with a Purpose on America's Federal Lands and Forests.'' This | |
| is an important subject, and I hope the discussion that ensues | |
| will help establish some guiding principles of Federal land | |
| management and conservation for this Subcommittee to follow. | |
| It could also not be coming at a more critical moment. Our | |
| Federal land management agencies are facing a suite of | |
| unprecedented crises: bleak forest health conditions and | |
| catastrophic megafires, crumbling infrastructure and | |
| skyrocketing deferred maintenance, environmental degradation at | |
| our Southern border, disappearing access and recreation | |
| opportunities, overcrowding, and diminished economic | |
| opportunities for local communities. | |
| As a nation, we are blessed with abundant natural resources | |
| on our Federal lands. There are roughly 640 million acres of | |
| Federal land across the country, which is 28 percent of the | |
| entire land base. I might be biased, but my district in | |
| Northern Wisconsin, which contains a million and a half of | |
| those acres, are some of the finest Federal lands in the | |
| country including the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest. | |
| When done well, Federal lands are carefully managed to | |
| balance the multiple uses and needs of the American people in a | |
| way that ensures they will be protected and enjoyed by | |
| generations to come. This is what we mean when we say | |
| ``conservation with a purpose.'' | |
| Sadly, true conservation of our Federal lands has been | |
| increasingly hamstrung by a preservationist agenda being pushed | |
| by extreme environmentalists, including those in the Biden | |
| administration. Under the guise of protecting the environment, | |
| these extremists have pushed for locking up vast swaths of land | |
| under restrictive land designations, shutting down active | |
| management and responsible resource development through | |
| burdensome regulations, and when all else fails, filing | |
| frivolous lawsuits. | |
| Extreme environmentalists have also hijacked the word | |
| ``conservation'' to promote policies straight out of the | |
| preservationist playbook. Look no further than the Biden | |
| administration's own 30 x 30 Initiative, an ill-defined, | |
| unscientific policy. Under the guise of conservation, 30 x 30 | |
| has supported nothing but preservationist land designations and | |
| a $1 billion slush fund. Of course, this is hardly a surprise, | |
| given the fact that the nonpartisan Congressional Research | |
| Service has calculated 39 percent of lands are already | |
| considered protected in the United States of America. | |
| Preservation has failed to yield promised environmental | |
| protection. Instead, preservation exacerbates the challenges | |
| facing Federal land managers by hindering their ability to use | |
| science-based, active management techniques. There is a better | |
| way to manage our lands. We owe it to the American people to | |
| support land management practices that lead to more resilient | |
| communities, better environmental outcomes, and greater access | |
| and opportunities for the American people. | |
| That is part of our Commitment to America, which sets forth | |
| principles to achieve these results by pursuing innovative, | |
| pro-growth solutions that responsibly expedite regulatory | |
| processes, reduce frivolous litigation, restore scientifically | |
| sound management, and remove arbitrary barriers blocking access | |
| to our Federal lands and forests. | |
| Achieving these outcomes will require empowering local | |
| communities and stakeholders to collaborate and coordinate on | |
| Federal land management efforts. People that live closest to | |
| these lands are often the best stewards because they understand | |
| the unique challenges they face and have a vested interest in | |
| ensuring that they are left in a better condition for future | |
| generations. That is why today we will hear from state, tribal, | |
| and local witnesses about the importance of collaboration and | |
| what true conservation should look like on our Federal lands | |
| and forests. I look forward to hearing their unique | |
| perspectives. | |
| I want to thank all the witnesses for being with us, and I | |
| look forward to today's discussion. | |
| [The prepared statement of Mr. Tiffany follows:] | |
| Prepared Statement of the Hon. Tom Tiffany, Chairman, Subcommittee on | |
| Federal Lands | |
| Good morning. I want to thank you all for being here today as the | |
| Subcommittee on Federal Lands meets for the first time in the 118th | |
| Congress. I want to take this opportunity to welcome all of our | |
| Members, returning and new. I am honored by the opportunity to serve as | |
| Chairman of this Subcommittee, and I am excited to work with you all | |
| this Congress as we endeavor to address the many pressing issues | |
| impacting our Federal lands and forests. | |
| I'd also like to welcome back our returning Ranking Member, | |
| Representative Joe Neguse of Colorado. Ranking Member Neguse, I look | |
| forward to working with you this Congress on our shared legislative and | |
| oversight priorities. | |
| The topic of today's hearing is ``Promoting Conservation with a | |
| Purpose on America's Federal Lands and Forests.'' This is an important | |
| subject, and I hope the discussion that ensues will help establish some | |
| guiding principles of Federal land management and conservation for this | |
| Subcommittee to follow. | |
| It could also not be coming at a more critical moment. Our Federal | |
| land management agencies are facing a suite of unprecedented crises: | |
| bleak forest health conditions and catastrophic megafires, crumbling | |
| infrastructure and skyrocketing deferred maintenance, environmental | |
| degradation at our Southern border, disappearing access and recreation | |
| opportunities, overcrowding, and diminished economic opportunities for | |
| local communities. | |
| As a nation we are blessed with abundant natural resources on our | |
| Federal lands. There are roughly 640 million acres of Federal land | |
| across the country, which is 28 percent of the entire land base. I | |
| might be biased, but my district in Northern Wisconsin contains just | |
| over 1.5 million acres of the finest Federal lands in the country, | |
| including the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest. | |
| When done well, Federal lands are carefully managed to balance the | |
| multiple uses and needs of the American people in a way that ensures | |
| they will be protected and enjoyed by generations to come. This is what | |
| we mean when we say conservation with a purpose. | |
| Sadly, true conservation of our Federal lands has been increasingly | |
| hamstrung by a preservationist agenda being pushed by extreme | |
| environmentalists, including those in the Biden administration. Under | |
| the guise of protecting the environment, these extremists have pushed | |
| for locking up vast swaths of land under restrictive land designations, | |
| shutting down active management and responsible resource development | |
| through burdensome regulations, and when all else fails, filing | |
| frivolous lawsuits. | |
| Extreme environmentalists have also hijacked the word | |
| ``conservation,'' to promote policies straight out of the | |
| preservationist playbook. Look no further than the Biden | |
| administration's own 30 by 30 Initiative, an ill-defined, unscientific | |
| policy. Under the guise of ``conservation,'' 30 by 30 has supported | |
| nothing but preservationist land designations and a $1 billion slush | |
| fund. Of course, this is hardly a surprise, given the fact that the | |
| non-partisan Congressional Research Service has calculated 39 percent | |
| of lands are already considered `protected.' | |
| Preservation has failed to yield promised environmental protection. | |
| Instead, preservation exacerbates the challenges facing Federal land | |
| managers by hindering their ability to use science-based active | |
| management techniques. There is a better way to manage our lands. We | |
| owe it to the American people to support land management practices that | |
| lead to more resilient communities, better environmental outcomes, and | |
| greater access and opportunities for the American people. | |
| That's part of our Commitment to America, which set forth | |
| principles to achieve these results by pursuing innovative pro-growth | |
| solutions that responsibly expedite regulatory processes, reduce | |
| frivolous litigation, restore scientifically sound management, and | |
| remove arbitrary barriers blocking access to our Federal lands and | |
| forests. | |
| Achieving these outcomes will require empowering local communities | |
| and stakeholders to collaborate and coordinate on Federal land | |
| management efforts. People that live closest to these lands are often | |
| the best stewards because they understand the unique challenges they | |
| face and have a vested interest in ensuring they are left in a better | |
| condition for future generations. That's why today, we will hear from | |
| State, Tribal and local witnesses about the importance of collaboration | |
| and what true conservation should look like on our Federal lands and | |
| forests. I look forward to hearing their unique perspectives. | |
| I want to thank all the witnesses for being with us and I look | |
| forward to today's discussion. | |
| ______ | |
| Mr. Tiffany. With that, I will now recognize the Ranking | |
| Member, Mr. Neguse, for his opening statement. | |
| STATEMENT OF THE HON. JOE NEGUSE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS | |
| FROM THE STATE OF COLORADO | |
| Mr. Neguse. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| First and foremost, I want to say congratulations to you on | |
| your chairmanship and certainly looking forward to working with | |
| you. I have had the privilege of working with you previously on | |
| this Subcommittee and in the broader Committee, and I am | |
| certainly excited about the work ahead. | |
| I am glad to join you today and our colleagues from both | |
| sides of the aisle for the inaugural meeting of the Federal | |
| Lands Subcommittee in the 118th Congress. | |
| I also want to welcome, in particular, our newer Members. I | |
| know we have a number of freshman Members of Congress who are | |
| serving on this Subcommittee both from the Republican side and | |
| the Democratic side, and we are very, very grateful to have | |
| them participating. | |
| I had the privilege, as you all will recall, of serving as | |
| Chairman of this Subcommittee in the last Congress, and my | |
| experience taught me during the course of the last 2 years that | |
| this Subcommittee is really a workhorse. | |
| And I was very grateful to hear the Chairman talk a bit | |
| about that, and I think it is kind of helpful to do a bit of | |
| level-setting as we kick off the year. | |
| In the 117th Congress, just by way of background, we | |
| processed and moved more stand-alone pieces of legislation in | |
| this Subcommittee than any other Natural Resources | |
| Subcommittee, and we did so in a bipartisan manner. | |
| The Full Committee, the Natural Resources Committee under | |
| Chairman Grijalva, marked up 68 bills that were referred to | |
| this Subcommittee last Congress. Thirty-eight of those bills | |
| were sponsored by Democrats. Thirty were sponsored by | |
| Republicans. | |
| And that was really important to me, as the Subcommittee | |
| Chair, to ensure that this Subcommittee operated in a | |
| bipartisan manner, and I believe this is the case--of course, | |
| we have a bevy of folks that can fact check it--that no other | |
| Subcommittee in the U.S. Congress in the last Congress | |
| functioned in that way as this Subcommittee did in terms of the | |
| volume and the percentages between Republican bills and | |
| Democratic bills. | |
| Forty-nine of those bills that I mentioned passed the | |
| House, and an impressive 74 were enacted into law either as | |
| stand-alones or as part of a larger package. | |
| Again, most of that work was done on a very bipartisan | |
| basis, with one-third of those bills being sponsored by my | |
| Republican colleagues. It was a priority for our Subcommittee, | |
| and I think and I certainly hope that the former Ranking | |
| Member, my friend from Idaho, Mr. Fulcher, would concur with | |
| that. | |
| But it was something we took very seriously, and I | |
| certainly hope, as Chairman, that you will take that same | |
| approach, and I have no doubt that that will be the case, and I | |
| appreciate the opportunity to be able to have the spirited and | |
| robust debate that I know we will have on issues over the | |
| course of the next 2 years. | |
| Before I move on to the topic of today's hearing, because | |
| this is the first hearing of this particular Subcommittee, I | |
| would be remiss if I did not take a moment to discuss the | |
| crisis that really is engulfing the West right now, and that is | |
| the Western drought. | |
| Whether you are in an Upper Basin state like myself or Mr. | |
| Curtis, or our new Member from the state of Wyoming, or one of | |
| the Lower Basin states, it is very clear that we have a crisis | |
| on our hands. | |
| The drought conditions along the Colorado River year after | |
| year are something simply that we can't ignore. I represent a | |
| district in Northern Colorado that includes the headwaters of | |
| the Colorado River. So, for us, this is very real, and as we | |
| talk about conservation, I certainly hope, and understand that | |
| there is a separate Subcommittee on Water that many of us serve | |
| on, that nonetheless, we can talk a bit here about our work to | |
| protect watersheds and water sources. | |
| And I certainly look forward to doing that work with | |
| Chairman Tiffany and my colleagues. | |
| With respect to conservation, I think the record is clear | |
| that in the last Congress we made significant progress during | |
| our time in the Majority on that issue. Through President | |
| Biden's Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act, as | |
| you all know, we passed historic levels of funding to promote | |
| resilience, restoration, and conservation across public lands. | |
| A lot of that work was informed by the hearings that we | |
| held right here in this Subcommittee with witnesses like | |
| yourselves, hearings that provided opportunities for Federal | |
| land management agencies, scientists, local officials, | |
| community stakeholders, and a wide range of public land users | |
| to be able to come in and provide us with insight about | |
| conservation potential of our Federal lands and forests. | |
| And now, the good news is that the generational investments | |
| that we enacted last Congress are financing projects literally | |
| across the Rocky Mountain West that were designed to mitigate | |
| the worst effects of the climate crisis, keeping communities | |
| safe, and restoring damaged ecosystems. | |
| We are talking literally about hundreds of millions of | |
| dollars in investments to promote resiliency across public | |
| lands and mitigation. We see these investments having real | |
| world impacts with respect to wildfire, just by one example, a | |
| significant concern, of course, to my district and I know to | |
| many of my colleagues here who represent the West. | |
| The Biden administration has been utilizing these resources | |
| to partner with states, with counties. I hope we will hear | |
| about some of that today, as well as key stakeholders to treat | |
| millions of acres within our national forests, particularly in | |
| the most at risk fire sheds. | |
| That work is crucially important, and again, it is a | |
| generational investment whose time has certainly come. | |
| But there is more to be done, and we will certainly be | |
| introducing legislation in the coming weeks and months with our | |
| colleagues to address some of those concerns. | |
| Now, of course, I would be remiss if I did not talk a bit | |
| about public lands' preservation as we talk about conservation. | |
| I, of course, have a bill that I am particularly supportive | |
| of which is the Colorado Outdoor Recreation and Economy Act, | |
| the CORE Act, community-driven legislation that would protect | |
| thousands of acres of land in Colorado. | |
| But there are many other bills of a similar nature that | |
| have been introduced by colleagues of mine on my side of the | |
| aisle, and I certainly hope that we will have an opportunity to | |
| consider some of those bills as well over the coming 2 years. | |
| So, I will simply close by saying I appreciate the | |
| opportunity to be able to serve as Ranking Member, to serve | |
| with you, Mr. Chairman, and I look forward to the work ahead. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Thank you very much. Thank you, Ranking Member | |
| Neguse. | |
| We will now move on to our witnesses. | |
| Let me remind the witnesses that under Committee Rules, | |
| they must limit their oral statements to 5 minutes, but their | |
| entire statement will appear in the hearing record. | |
| To begin your testimony, please press the on button on the | |
| microphone. We use timing lights. When you begin, the light | |
| will turn green. At the end of 5 minutes, the light will turn | |
| red and I will ask you to please complete your statement at | |
| that time if you are continuing. | |
| I will also allow all witnesses to testify before Member | |
| questioning. | |
| First of all, I will introduce Mr. Joel Ferry, the | |
| Executive Director of the Utah Department of Natural Resources. | |
| Mr. Ferry is a fifth-generation farmer who operates a ranch, | |
| farm, feedlot, and hunting properties in Corinne, Utah. | |
| Corinne? | |
| Mr. Ferry. Corinne. So close. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Prior to his role with the Department of | |
| Natural Resources, Mr. Ferry served in the Utah House of | |
| Representatives. | |
| Mr. Ferry, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. | |
| STATEMENT OF THE HON. JOEL FERRY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, UTAH | |
| DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH | |
| Mr. Ferry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Committee. It is an | |
| honor being here with you today. | |
| This is a subject and a topic that is very near and dear to | |
| my heart. And I want to talk about Federal interaction with the | |
| state of Utah on the lands that are in the state of Utah. | |
| So, Federal landownership is significantly higher in the | |
| western United States than in other regions, and in Utah, in | |
| particular, the Federal Government owns over 60 percent of the | |
| land in our state. Only Nevada has more federally owned land in | |
| the Lower 48 than Utah does. | |
| Utah is home to 13 national parks and millions of acres | |
| managed by Federal agencies including Forest Service, Bureau of | |
| Land Management, and the Fish and Wildlife Service. | |
| The health and viability of our forests, our wildlands, and | |
| our watersheds have a direct impact on downstream natural | |
| resources like the Great Salt Lake, which is in peril. | |
| As directed by the FLPMA and the National Forest Management | |
| Act, smart, collaborative conservation is most effective when | |
| Federal land use plans are consistent with plans and policies | |
| of the states and local governments, and this integration is | |
| critical as state and local plans and policies incorporate | |
| local scientific data and reflect the needs of the nearby | |
| communities. | |
| Utah's natural resources are healthier, more resilient, | |
| more productive when actively managed across ownership | |
| boundaries and management, and management like this must occur | |
| regularly and at a watershed and local community scale, and | |
| this can only be accomplished by working together. | |
| In Utah, we have implemented several different programs | |
| that are collaborative efforts between the Federal Government | |
| and the state. Those programs include the Watershed Restoration | |
| Initiative, which has invested over the past 17 years, and we | |
| have done over 2,500 projects and invested hundreds of millions | |
| of dollars and enhanced and improved over 2.4 million acres | |
| within our watershed and our forests. | |
| Another program that we started 4 years ago is the Shared | |
| Stewardship Program. This is a collaborative effort between the | |
| Forest Service and the state of Utah. We have been able to | |
| invest over $30 million and protected, enhanced, and removed | |
| old growth and regenerated our forests on over 80,000 acres. | |
| These have both been very successful programs that I think | |
| are an example of how Utah is leading the nation in managing | |
| our Federal lands and coordinating with our Federal Government. | |
| In addition, recently, in the last few years, we created | |
| the Office of Outdoor Recreation and Department of Outdoor | |
| Recreation within our state government that promotes outdoor | |
| recreation on our Federal lands, and this is a collaborative | |
| effort between the state and the Federal Government. | |
| Now, despite these successes, we still face serious | |
| obstacles, and the most significant obstacle is the National | |
| Environmental Policy Act, NEPA, and the way it hamstrings the | |
| effective land management by our Federal partners. | |
| The Act was well intentioned but has become the hook for | |
| litigation by those who oppose any type of active management on | |
| Federal lands and forests. | |
| NEPA is the kind of tool to prevent grazing, energy | |
| development, and mining of critical minerals that American | |
| industries, including the renewable industries, need. And | |
| perhaps most relevant for our discussion today is NEPA often | |
| prevents Federal agencies from thinning our forests to prevent | |
| catastrophic wildfires and by transforming dying forests into | |
| healthy forests. | |
| And that was certainly not the intent of the Act, but that | |
| is what it does. | |
| We are encouraged by the reforms of the Trump | |
| administration that they were undertaking, but very | |
| disappointed by the current Council on Environmental Quality | |
| and the rolling back of those reforms, endangering our | |
| conservation efforts and the Administration's own stated goals. | |
| We would also encourage the Federal Government to | |
| reconsider the impact of President Biden's 30 x 30 Initiative, | |
| particularly on states like Utah where the Federal Government | |
| manages significant acres of public lands. Utah is not | |
| comfortable with an attempt by the Administration to place even | |
| more of these lands in Utah under restrictive designations. | |
| Approximately 61 percent of Utah, 33 million acres of land | |
| is Federal land protected under different Federal laws, | |
| regulations like NEPA, and FLPMA. | |
| So, working together in collaboration with our Federal and | |
| local partners is always better than working in isolated silos. | |
| We have proven this in Utah. Our natural resources are more | |
| resilient, more productive when actively managed across | |
| ownership boundaries. | |
| We have healthier watersheds, cleaner water, greater yield | |
| of water, fire resistant landscapes, healthier wildlife | |
| populations and more abundant outdoor recreational | |
| opportunities when we work together. | |
| As stewards of Utah's natural resources, we need your help | |
| in removing barriers that hinder our ability to actively manage | |
| the public lands. We need your continued support and investment | |
| at the individual watershed level and local level. Ongoing | |
| partnership and cooperation are necessary as we continue to | |
| work through these challenges and opportunities. | |
| Thank you. | |
| [The prepared statement of Mr. Ferry follows:] | |
| Prepared Statement of Executive Director, Joel Ferry, | |
| Utah Department of Natural Resources | |
| <bullet> Federal landownership is significantly higher in the | |
| western United States than in other regions. In Utah, the federal | |
| government owns over 60 percent of the land. Only Nevada has more | |
| federally owned land. | |
| <bullet> Utah is home to 13 national park units and millions of | |
| acres managed by federal agencies, including the U.S. Forest Service, | |
| Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. | |
| <bullet> In states like Utah, where the federal government manages | |
| significant swaths of land, proactive, collaborative and smart | |
| conservation efforts are critical to maintaining healthy and thriving | |
| landscapes and watersheds. Success comes through cooperation. | |
| <bullet> The health and viability of our forests, wildlands and | |
| watersheds have a direct impact on downstream natural resources like | |
| the Great Salt Lake and Utah Lake. | |
| <bullet> As directed by the Federal Land Policy and Management Act | |
| and the National Forest Management Act, smart collaborative | |
| conservation is most effective when federal land use plans are | |
| consistent with the plans and policies of states and local governments. | |
| This integration is critical as state and local plans and policies | |
| incorporate local scientific data and reflect the needs of nearby | |
| communities. | |
| <bullet> Natural resources that directly contribute to our quality | |
| of life don't respect ownership boundaries, like water, air, wildlife | |
| and even wildfires. This underscores the importance of cooperative | |
| working relationships. | |
| <bullet> Close collaboration is essential as we continually work | |
| to anticipate challenges and changing conditions, like drought, | |
| wildfire and demand on outdoor recreation, and tackle them with the | |
| latest science, tools, innovation and collaboration. | |
| <bullet> Utah's natural resources are healthier, more resilient | |
| and more productive when actively managed across ownership boundaries. | |
| Management like this must occur regularly and at a watershed and local | |
| community scale. This can only be accomplished by working together. | |
| <bullet> In Utah, through smart and collaborative conservation | |
| practices, we've maximized investments in ways that increase healthy | |
| watersheds and benefit local communities directly. | |
| <bullet> For example, Utah's Watershed Restoration Initiative | |
| (WRI) is a partnership-based program that improves high-priority | |
| watersheds statewide. | |
| -- In its 17th year, this initiative focuses on three | |
| ecosystem values: 1) Watershed health and biological diversity | |
| 2) Water quality and yield 3) Opportunities for sustainable | |
| uses of natural resources. | |
| -- WRI has completed over 2,500 projects in Utah, improving | |
| over 2.4 million acres and nearly 2,300 miles of streams and | |
| riparian corridors. | |
| -- This state-led partnership includes over 700 partners, | |
| including federal and state land management agencies, local | |
| governments, private landowners, Non profits, environmental | |
| organizations and sportsman groups. We have leveraged nearly | |
| $350 million for on-the-ground active management projects | |
| across ownership boundaries to improve Utah's watersheds. | |
| <bullet> For four years, the state of Utah has been working with | |
| federal partners through our combined Shared Stewardship agreement to | |
| protect communities and watersheds from the threat of unwanted fire. | |
| -- The agreement has allowed Utah to work with the U.S. Forest | |
| Service, Natural Resource Conservation Service, and dozens of | |
| additional local and private partners to implement fuel | |
| reduction work from a landscape scale, cross-boundary approach. | |
| In all, there are over 150 coordinating partners. | |
| -- Over $30 million has been invested in active forest | |
| management over the last four years, with $5.5 million invested | |
| in 2022. | |
| -- More than 45 jointly identified high-priority watersheds | |
| have been improved, and 80,000 acres treated. | |
| -- Currently, projects that exemplify the success of this | |
| program include the Beaver River Watershed Improvement and the | |
| Parley's Canyon Watershed Restoration. | |
| -- The Beaver River project in the Fishlake National Forest | |
| exemplifies a large-scale and collaborative project that | |
| included federal and state partnerships and local and county | |
| involvement. The project included strategic landscape-scale | |
| projects on State Institutional Trust Lands and Forest Service | |
| land. Fuels removed from the project were sold and processed by | |
| members of the private forest products industry to encourage | |
| economic growth and wood utilization. | |
| -- Parley's Canyon, in Summit County, has been the site of two | |
| wildfires in the last two years, highlighting the immediate | |
| risk to people and homes in the canyon. Mechanical fuels | |
| treatments have been conducted along Parley's Creek in the | |
| Lambs Canyon area to protect water quality for Salt Lake City | |
| and ensure the safety of residential and commercial properties. | |
| -- Work continues to take place across the state as more areas | |
| are identified and funding is available through state and | |
| federal appropriations. | |
| <bullet> The state, working with county governments and local | |
| stakeholders, recently completed an aspen regeneration project in | |
| partnership with the U.S. Forest Service on Fishlake National Forest. | |
| -- The Monroe Mountain Aspen Regeneration Project included | |
| diverse community stakeholders working with the Forest Service | |
| on a comprehensive plan to restore declining aspen forests. | |
| -- Prescribed fire, logging and other tools are being used to | |
| restore aspen habitat, benefiting wildlife, livestock and the | |
| watershed. | |
| -- The project succeeded, in part, because the Forest Service | |
| supported the grassroots efforts of the community to improve | |
| forest health. | |
| <bullet> Utah's newly created Division of Outdoor Recreation | |
| administers the federal government's Land and Water Conservation Fund | |
| (LWCF), which is designed to implement projects and improve outdoor | |
| recreation at the local level. | |
| -- This federal reimbursement grant is for the acquisition and | |
| development of outdoor recreation areas and requires a 50 | |
| percent match from applicants. | |
| -- Utah has implemented over 500 projects since the inception | |
| of LWCF with an investment of over $50 million from the federal | |
| government. | |
| <bullet> Investment in outdoor recreation goes beyond projects | |
| funded through the LWCF. Utah has expanded its efforts through the | |
| Outdoor Recreational Infrastructure Grant Program. | |
| -- Transient room tax funds are used to build new, and | |
| maintain existing outdoor recreational infrastructure. These | |
| projects are on local, state and federal lands. | |
| -- Nearly $35 million in state funding has been invested since | |
| 2015. Funding has gone toward 399 different projects and | |
| created 735 miles of new trails throughout the state, and has | |
| resulted in a public/private match of over 7 to 1. | |
| <bullet> Significant investment in Utah is also underway through | |
| the Great American Outdoors Act. The Legacy Restoration Fund of the | |
| Great American Outdoors Act is investing over $121 million through 16 | |
| different projects in Utah. | |
| -- One such project is an $11 million rehabilitation project | |
| of the South Campground at Zion National Park, which has seen | |
| significant increases in visitation in the last several years | |
| and is now the third-most visited national park in the United | |
| States. Investments like this are critical as Utah public lands | |
| become more and more popular for visitors from around the | |
| world. | |
| <bullet> The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources has worked | |
| collaboratively with several federal partners, including Fish and | |
| Wildlife Services, the Bureau of Reclamation, the Central Utah Project | |
| Completion Act Office, and the Department of the Interior to downlist | |
| the June sucker from endangered to threatened under the Endangered | |
| Species Act. | |
| -- June suckers are a unique fish species only found in Utah | |
| Lake and its tributaries. It was downlisted in 2021 largely due | |
| to ongoing efforts by various partnering agencies, including | |
| state and federal, to help the species recover. | |
| -- An example of some of these efforts is the Provo River | |
| Delta Restoration project, which broke ground in June 2020. | |
| -- Just last week, the project reached another major | |
| milestone--the Provo River was diverted into the channels and | |
| ponds constructed over the past three years, connecting the | |
| river with a restored delta and with Utah Lake. The restored | |
| delta will provide habitat for adult June suckers to spawn and | |
| for young June suckers to find safety from predators, which | |
| will continue to help this species recover. | |
| <bullet> Smart conservation and collaboration can also | |
| significantly benefit Sage-Grouse in Utah through the Utah Greater | |
| Sage-Grouse Management Plan. | |
| -- Utah is home to a unique population of Greater Sage-Grouse | |
| that lives in a highly fragmented range. Utah's 2019 Greater | |
| Sage Grouse Management Plan utilizes effective tools for the | |
| conservation of these unique birds that use scientific data and | |
| best management practices uniquely tailored to Utah. | |
| -- Federal plans for conserving Greater Sage-Grouse habitat | |
| will be most effective when they are fully consistent with | |
| provisions of Utah's own management plan. | |
| <bullet> Despite our successes, we still face serious obstacles. | |
| Perhaps the most significant is the National Environmental Policy Act, | |
| and the way it hamstrings effective land management by our federal | |
| partners. The Act was well intentioned, but it has become the hook for | |
| litigation by those who oppose any type of active management of federal | |
| lands and forests. | |
| <bullet> NEPA has become a tool to prevent grazing, energy | |
| development, and the mining of the critical minerals that American | |
| industries, including the renewable industry, needs. And perhaps most | |
| relevant for our discussion today, NEPA often prevents federal agencies | |
| from thinning our forests to prevent catastrophic wildfires by | |
| transforming dying forests into healthy forests. That was certainly not | |
| the intent of the Act, but that's what it does. | |
| <bullet> We were encouraged by the reforms the Trump | |
| Administration was undertaking, but we're very disappointed to see the | |
| current Council on Environmental Quality rolling back those reforms and | |
| endangering our conservation efforts and the Administration's own | |
| stated goals. | |
| <bullet> We would also encourage the federal government to | |
| reconsider the impact of President Biden's 30x30 initiative, | |
| particularly on states like Utah where the federal government manages | |
| significant acres of public lands. Utah is not comfortable with an | |
| attempt by the Administration to place even more land in Utah under | |
| restrictive designations. | |
| <bullet> Approximately 61% of Utah (over 33 million acres of | |
| Utah's land area) is federal land protected under many different | |
| federal laws and regulations, such as NEPA and FLPMA. | |
| -- And approximately 23 percent of Utah (over 12.6 million | |
| acres) is protected under especially restrictive land | |
| designations such as national parks, national monuments, | |
| wilderness areas, roadless areas, etc. | |
| <bullet> Working together, in collaboration with our federal and | |
| local partners, is always better than working in isolated silos. We've | |
| proven this in Utah. Our natural resources are more resilient and more | |
| productive when actively managed across ownership boundaries. We have | |
| healthier watersheds, cleaner water and greater yield, fire-resilient | |
| landscapes, healthier wildlife populations and more abundant outdoor | |
| recreational opportunities. | |
| <bullet> As stewards of Utah's natural resources, we need your | |
| help removing barriers that hinder our ability to actively manage | |
| public lands, and we need your continued support and investment at the | |
| individual watershed and local levels. Ongoing partnership and | |
| cooperation are necessary as we continue to work through challenges and | |
| opportunities. | |
| ______ | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Ferry. | |
| I now recognize Representative Hageman for 30 seconds to | |
| introduce our second witness. | |
| Ms. Hageman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| It is my pleasure to introduce the Carbon County | |
| Commissioner, John Espy, to the Committee today. Commissioner | |
| John Espy is a fifth-generation rancher from Rawlins, Wyoming. | |
| He is a member of the Carbon County Board of Commissioners, | |
| holding this position since 2012 and has served as its vice | |
| chair and chair. | |
| He has served on various boards including the Animal Damage | |
| Management Board, the Wyoming County Commissioner Association | |
| Public Lands Committee, and the Sage-Grouse Implementation | |
| Team. | |
| An experienced conservationist and local government | |
| official, we are lucky to have Commissioner Espy's testimony | |
| and knowledge before this Committee today. | |
| John, it is a pleasure to see you again, and I look forward | |
| to hearing your testimony. | |
| Thank you. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. I now recognize Commissioner Espy for 5 | |
| minutes. | |
| STATEMENT OF THE HON. JOHN ESPY, COMMISSIONER, BOARD OF CARBON | |
| COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, RAWLINS, WYOMING | |
| Mr. Espy. Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, thank | |
| you for inviting me to testify today. | |
| My name is John Espy. I am a fifth-generation rancher and a | |
| Carbon County, Wyoming Commissioner. I serve as the First-Vice | |
| President of the National Association of Counties' Western | |
| Interstate Region, and Chairman of the Wyoming County | |
| Commissioners Association Agriculture, Water, State and Public | |
| Lands Committee. Additionally, I serve on State and Local Task | |
| Force on Greater Sage-Grouse Conservation, and as Carbon County | |
| Co-Chair of the Wyoming Public Lands Initiative. | |
| I am here today on behalf of the National Association of | |
| Counties. | |
| Counties offer detailed expertise on resource management | |
| issues that help achieve our mutual goals. | |
| Our environmental and socioeconomic values must be balanced | |
| through multiple use management, which is best achieved when | |
| Federal agencies treat counties as governing partners and co- | |
| regulators by coordinating their resource management plans to | |
| ensure the consistency of those impacted counties. | |
| Counties have legal jurisdiction over certain areas and | |
| must be given the opportunity to participate as cooperating | |
| agencies from the beginning of the NEPA process to lend their | |
| expertise to better inform Federal decisions. | |
| Carbon County has a population of approximately 15,000 and | |
| is home to part of the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forest. | |
| About 54 percent of Carbon County is federally owned. | |
| Our economy is directly tied to public lands. Minerals and | |
| energy production, agriculture, and tourism are our top | |
| industries. | |
| Counties work collaboratively with Federal agencies, | |
| states, tribes, and landowners on a range of natural resource | |
| issues to support our local economies, our cultural heritage. | |
| Our Weed and Pest District, funded by county taxes, has | |
| treated over 50,000 acres of Federal, state, and private lands | |
| for invasive weeds and grasses. | |
| Our conservation district worked with Federal agencies to | |
| remove sediment from the North Platte and Little Snake Rivers. | |
| To incentivize the Forest Service and BLM to increase their | |
| use of the Good Neighbor Authority, the State Forestry Division | |
| spent $400,000 to hire personnel for cooperative forest | |
| management projects on Federal lands. | |
| After working at the local grass roots level with public | |
| land stakeholders, like conservationists, recreational groups, | |
| extractive industries, and agriculturists, we submitted | |
| management recommendations on wilderness study areas that were | |
| addressed by the Wyoming Public Lands Initiative. Under the | |
| Act, certain WSAs stuck in limbo since 1991 would be designated | |
| as wilderness, special management areas, or released back into | |
| multiple use. | |
| Carbon County's recommendations would designate the | |
| Encampment River Canyon and Prospect Mountain WSAs as | |
| wilderness, establish the Black Cat Special Management Area, | |
| and release the Bennett Mountain WSA to multiple use. | |
| In addition to petroleum and mineral production, we lead | |
| the way in renewable energy development with the Chokecherry | |
| Sierra Madre Wind Project that will be housed on 1,400 acres of | |
| Federal, state, and private checkerboard land. This would be | |
| the largest wind farm in the United States, providing enough | |
| electricity for 1 million homes. | |
| We have worked with all levels of government and private | |
| industry to ensure the project meets community needs with | |
| limited environmental impacts. | |
| It has generated millions of dollars in tax revenue, | |
| creates good paying jobs, and helps meet the President's fossil | |
| fuel reduction goals. | |
| We also boost Blue Ribbon Fishery on the North Platte | |
| River, which includes an area known as the Miracle Mile. | |
| Federal, state, and local partners ensure the North Platte | |
| remains some of the best trout habitat in the West. | |
| Every resident and local fisherman in Carbon County | |
| recognizes how conservation of this river benefits our | |
| community. | |
| We continue to update our land use and resource management | |
| plans to adapt to environmental, economic, and community | |
| concerns. | |
| Our latest update identifies sensitive habitats that | |
| include consultation requirements with the state to mitigate | |
| migration corridor impacts. | |
| Counties are heavily engaged in species management, too. We | |
| work with local, state, and Federal agencies, industry, and | |
| non-governmental organizations to protect the Greater sage- | |
| grouse. We give particular attention to locally driven | |
| solutions supported by science that result in sustainable | |
| outcomes. | |
| Commissioners also volunteer their time and expertise | |
| across the state to participate in local working groups with | |
| Federal land agencies long after the Record of Decision is | |
| printed. | |
| Counties remain committed to assisting our Federal partners | |
| on plan implementation. | |
| Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, thank you for the | |
| invitation to testify today, and I look forward to your | |
| questions. | |
| [The prepared statement of Mr. Espy follows:] | |
| Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Espy Commissioner, Carbon | |
| County, Wyoming on behalf of the National Association of Counties | |
| Chairman Tiffany and Ranking Member Neguse, thank you for holding | |
| this hearing on promoting conservation with a purpose on America's | |
| federal lands and forests. | |
| My name is John Espy, and I am a fifth-generation rancher and a | |
| member of the Carbon County, Wyoming Board of County Commissioners. I | |
| also serve as First-Vice President of the National Association of | |
| Counties' Western Interstate Region, Chairman of the Wyoming County | |
| Commissioners Association Agriculture, Water, State and Public Lands | |
| Committee, county representative to the Wyoming Sage-Grouse | |
| Implementation Team, rancher representative to the South-Central | |
| Wyoming Local Sage-Grouse Working Group, and Carbon County Co-Chair for | |
| the Wyoming Public Lands Initiative. I am here today on behalf of the | |
| National Association of Counties. | |
| Gifford Pinchot, the first Chief of the U.S. Forest Service wrote | |
| in 1909, ``Conservation means the wise use of the earth and its | |
| resources for the lasting good of men.'' Counties encourage Congress to | |
| develop policies that reflect this ethic and to pass legislation | |
| focused on conserving our lands and resources, rather than preserving | |
| all of them in perpetuity. Purposeful conservation allows for | |
| sustainable timber harvests for economic benefit and also to improve | |
| forest health, reduce the threat of wildfire across our National Forest | |
| System, and to protect our gateway communities. | |
| Public lands are a defining feature of the United States, | |
| particularly in the West. Counties serve as conveners and offer local, | |
| detailed expertise on resource management issues that is beneficial to | |
| all levels of government and helps to achieve mutual goals. Counties | |
| believe that environmental and socioeconomic values must be balanced | |
| through a philosophy of multiple use management that allows diverse | |
| activities on public lands to support local economies. This is best | |
| achieved when federal agencies treat counties as governing partners and | |
| co-regulators by coordinating their resource management plans to ensure | |
| they are consistent with those of impacted counties. Additionally, | |
| counties have specific legal jurisdiction and expertise in certain | |
| areas. We must be given the opportunity to meaningfully participate as | |
| cooperating agencies from the beginning of the National Environmental | |
| Policy Act (NEPA) process, so that we can lend our experience and | |
| expertise to better inform federal decisions. | |
| About Carbon County, Wyoming | |
| Carbon County is in south-central Wyoming, bordering Colorado. | |
| Carbon County is a rural county with a population of approximately | |
| 15,000. The county covers approximately 7,900 square miles and contains | |
| a large share of the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forest, which is home | |
| to pristine recreation sites including Sugarloaf Mountain, Medicine Bow | |
| Peak and Mirror Lake. | |
| About 54 percent of Carbon County's surface is federally owned, | |
| which is slightly higher than the state's average of around 47 percent. | |
| My county's economy is directly tied to public lands, with mineral and | |
| energy production, agriculture and tourism serving as our top-three | |
| industries. Consequently, the socioeconomics of my county is | |
| significantly impacted by how federal lands are managed. Carbon County | |
| is not alone, every county in Wyoming, and virtually all counties | |
| throughout the West, must work collaboratively with our federal | |
| partners to ensure our land and resources are managed properly and | |
| support our local economies and our cultural heritage. | |
| We regularly partner with federal agencies, the state government, | |
| tribes and private landowners on a range of natural resource issues. | |
| For example, the Carbon County Weed and Pest District, funded by county | |
| taxes, has treated over 50,000 acres of federal, state and private | |
| lands to control invasive weeds and grasses that choke off native | |
| vegetation and elevate wildfire risks. Our conservation district also | |
| worked closely with federal agencies to remove sediment from the North | |
| Platte and Little Snake Rivers in recent years. To incentivize the | |
| United States Forest Service (USFS) and the Bureau of Land Management | |
| (BLM) to increase their use of Good Neighbor Authority, the State of | |
| Wyoming appropriated $400,000 to hire positions within the state | |
| forestry division to conduct cooperative forest management projects on | |
| federal lands. | |
| We pride ourselves on providing opportunities for local voices to | |
| be heard on the federal land management stage. After years of working | |
| with public land stakeholders, including conservation organizations, | |
| outdoor recreation groups, extractive industries, agriculturalists, and | |
| wildlife associations, Wyoming counties submitted management | |
| recommendations on Wilderness Study Areas (WSAs) within their borders, | |
| that are addressed by the Wyoming Public Lands Initiative Act. Under | |
| the Act, certain Wyoming WSAs that have been stuck in limbo--waiting | |
| for Congress to act on the BLM's recommendations from 1991--would be | |
| designated as wilderness, assigned a special management area, or | |
| released back to multiple-use management. Carbon County's | |
| recommendations designated the Encampment River Canyon and Prospect | |
| Mountain WSAs as wilderness, established the Black Cat Special | |
| Management Area, and released Bennett Mountain multiple-use management. | |
| This legislation was developed at the grassroots level with local input | |
| and serves as a strong example of how true conservation objectives can | |
| be met through collaboration. | |
| As energy demands grow and consumer appetites change, my county has | |
| proactively responded to the nation's energy needs. Carbon County is | |
| not only a proud petroleum producer, but we are also leading the way on | |
| renewable energy development with the Chokecherry and Sierra Madre Wind | |
| Energy Project, which is housed on 1,400 acres of federal, state and | |
| private checkerboard land. The project, once completed, will be the | |
| largest wind farm in the United States and one of the largest in the | |
| world providing enough electricity to power one million homes. We | |
| worked with the BLM, state government, private landowners, and the | |
| Power Company of Wyoming through each phase of the project to ensure it | |
| met the needs of our residents with limited impact on the environment. | |
| The project has generated millions of dollars in tax revenues for all | |
| levels of government, created good paying local jobs and serves to meet | |
| the president's goal of reducing our reliance on fossil fuels. | |
| Beyond land and minerals, we also boast a blue-ribbon fishery--the | |
| North Platte River--designated by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, | |
| which includes an area known as the Miracle Mile. Visitors from around | |
| the world come to Carbon County to fly fish and catch our amazing | |
| trout. We work with federal and state officials to ensure this | |
| wonderful stretch river remains some of the best trout habitat in the | |
| West. Every resident and government official in Carbon County | |
| recognizes how conservation of this vital resource benefits our | |
| community and everyone who lives downstream. | |
| Counties are best suited to assist federal land managers navigate | |
| evolving management challenges. For its part, Carbon County continues | |
| to update its land use plans and federal natural resource plans and to | |
| adapt to environmental, economic, and community concerns. For example, | |
| our latest updates identify sensitive habitats and include consultation | |
| requirements with the Wyoming Game and Fish Department when siting new | |
| projects to mitigate impacts to migration corridors for big game | |
| animals. | |
| Counties are heavily engaged in species management. As part of the | |
| Sage-grouse Implementation Team, made up of local, state and federal | |
| agencies, industry, and non-government organizations, we work to | |
| protect the Greater Sage-grouse in Wyoming. Far from a one-size fits | |
| all approach, we give particular attention to locally driven solutions, | |
| supported by science, that result in sustainable outcomes for Wyoming's | |
| wildlife, economy, and way of life. While Greater Sage-grouse efforts | |
| are more visible, commissioners volunteer their time and expertise | |
| across the state to participate in local working groups and advisory | |
| councils with federal lands agencies. Long after the Record of | |
| Decisions are printed, counties remain committed to assisting our | |
| federal partners on plan implementation to strengthen our mutual goals. | |
| Public lands are not just squares on a map, they are a source of | |
| tranquility, the foundation of our cultural identity, and the lifeblood | |
| of our economies. | |
| Conclusion | |
| Chairman Tiffany and Ranking Member Neguse, thank you for the | |
| invitation to testify today. I urge Congress to work across the aisle | |
| and craft viable legislation to empower state, local and tribal | |
| partners to work with federal agencies to better manage our public | |
| lands and natural resources. The best resource management decisions are | |
| made when federal agencies and local government partners look at the | |
| same piece of ground at the same time and work collaboratively. | |
| Thank you again for the opportunity to tell you the county story | |
| and to share some of our ideas for improving the health of our public | |
| lands and watersheds. I look forward to answering your questions. | |
| ______ | |
| Mr. McClintock [presiding]. Thank you, Commissioner Espy. | |
| I would now like to introduce Mr. John D. Leshy, who is the | |
| Emeritus Professor at the University of California, College of | |
| Law in San Francisco. | |
| Mr. Leshy, you are recognized for 5 minutes. | |
| STATEMENT OF JOHN D. LESHY, DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR EMERITUS, | |
| UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LAW, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA | |
| Mr. Leshy. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members, for | |
| the opportunity to testify here today. | |
| I am going to give you a story based on a book I recently | |
| published which is a political history of how the Federal lands | |
| came about. | |
| Slide, please. | |
| And it tells the story of the political decisions. That is | |
| the cover of the book. | |
| Now, the next slide, which is the lands. We have all seen | |
| these. I am going to talk mostly about the BLM and the Forest | |
| Service lands. | |
| I think these public lands are a great American success | |
| story, a political success story, because the story I tell is | |
| how starting in the 1890s, the Congress and the executive | |
| branch have closely collaborated, almost always in a bipartisan | |
| way, to produce the result you see on that map, the acreage | |
| that Congress and the President have agreed should be held in | |
| national ownership and managed primarily for preservation, | |
| outdoor recreation, science, et cetera. | |
| Next slide, please. | |
| The story I tell in the book is really captured in this | |
| chart. The solid line is the decisions that were made by | |
| acreage, on the left-hand axis, to hold lands or acquire more | |
| lands into national ownership. | |
| The dotted line are decisions made mostly by Congress, | |
| sometimes by the Executive, to protect mostly or fully protect | |
| those lands from intensive industrialization. | |
| A couple of things to particularly note about this chart. | |
| One is the arc is always upward, more lands, more protection, | |
| and these are decisions that were made by the political system, | |
| as I said, in a mostly bipartisan fashion. | |
| And if you put this against what political party is in | |
| charge of Congress or the presidency, it makes almost no | |
| difference in terms of the arc and the trajectory of this | |
| slide. | |
| So, not only does the arc move upward not affected by the | |
| political party considerations. One other thing to note about | |
| the chart is that there is kind of a fiction here that this is | |
| mostly driven by executive decisions, and in fact, it is mostly | |
| been driven by congressional decisions, especially in the last | |
| 60 years or so. | |
| Congress has really asserted its leadership role in | |
| deciding how much to protect public lands by zoning or | |
| determining what uses are permissible in particular areas. | |
| A turning point in this congressional recapture of | |
| authority came in the middle 1960s when Congress passed the | |
| Wilderness Act. | |
| Next slide please. | |
| Here is a chart showing the growth in the acreage in the | |
| wilderness system, which is the most protective system because | |
| intensive industrial uses are simply not permitted in | |
| wilderness areas. | |
| Congress did something very key in the Wilderness Act, | |
| which is when it said that not 1 acre gets added to the | |
| wilderness system unless it is done through an Act of Congress. | |
| In other words, the only way you get land into the system | |
| is through a Congressional Act. | |
| Now, a couple of things about this chart. One is there is a | |
| big upward trajectory. That reflects the immensity of Alaska | |
| because that all came about in the 1980 Alaska lands bill which | |
| tripled the size of the wilderness system in one act because | |
| Alaska is so vast. | |
| But notice the arc is always upward, and it goes up | |
| continuously and goes up to this day. I mean Congress adds land | |
| to the wilderness system practically every Congress. And if you | |
| look again at who is in charge politically of the White House | |
| or the Congress when this is done, it makes no difference. | |
| After the Alaska lands bill, the next sharp upward arc, | |
| that is the Reagan presidency when the Republicans were in | |
| charge of the Senate, and so forth. | |
| This has been a bipartisan enterprise practically from the | |
| beginning, and that is really important to keep in mind, | |
| because Congress has vigorously moved, especially in the last | |
| few decades, to put labels like not only park but national | |
| conservation area, national recreation area, and other | |
| restrictive management prescriptions onto how particular acres | |
| of land are managed. And this has been popular, as I said. | |
| Next slide. Only two more. | |
| Congress has greened up the Bureau of Land Management. This | |
| used to be its logo on the left. Now look at the logo on the | |
| right, and this sort of captures what has happened through | |
| congressional decision making in terms of how our land is | |
| managed. | |
| OK. I appreciate the opportunity to testify here today. I | |
| look forward to answering your questions. | |
| Thank you very much. | |
| ***** | |
| The slides provided during Mr. Leshy's testimony are part of | |
| the hearing record and are being retained in the Committee's | |
| official files: | |
| The slides are available for viewing at: | |
| https://docs.house.gov/meetings/II/II10/20230308/115449/HHRG- | |
| 118-II10-Wstate-LeshyJ-20230308.pdf | |
| [The prepared statement of Mr. Leshy follows:] | |
| Prepared Statement of John Leshy, Emeritus Professor at the University | |
| of | |
| California College of the Law, San Francisco, and Author of | |
| Our Common Ground, A History of America's Public Lands | |
| (Yale U. Press, 2022) | |
| Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, and members, thank you for the | |
| opportunity to testify here today. | |
| My name is John Leshy. I have devoted most of my professional | |
| career, stretching over more than a half century as a public servant | |
| and law professor, to promote sound management of America's public | |
| lands. My recently published book, Our Common Ground, is the first | |
| comprehensive political history of these lands in a very long time. | |
| The US government manages more than 600 million acres of public | |
| forests, plains, mountains, wetlands, deserts, and shorelines, holds | |
| them generally open to all, and manages them primarily for | |
| conservation, recreation, and education. | |
| My book makes the case that the public lands \1\ are one of | |
| America's outstanding political success stories. What I mean is that | |
| the Congress and the executive branch have, since the 1890s, | |
| collaborated to produce a result that today is widely supported by the | |
| vast majority of Americans everywhere, regardless of their political | |
| party. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \1\ While the term ``public lands'' is sometimes used to refer only | |
| to lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), I use it here | |
| to refer to lands managed by all of the four major agencies; besides | |
| the BLM, these are the U.S. Forest Service (USFS), the National Park | |
| Service (NPS), and the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS). | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| My testimony focuses on policy issues involved in the management of | |
| BLM and USFS lands (244 and 193 million acres, respectively), which | |
| account for nearly 3/4s of all the public lands.\2\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \2\ Most of the remainder are managed by the USFWS and the NPS (89 | |
| and 80 million acres, respectively). https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/ | |
| R42346.pdf. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| First, I will discuss the terms ``Conservation,'' ``Preservation,'' | |
| and ``Multiple Use'' that are often used in describing public land | |
| policy. None has a fixed, well-defined meaning in the public land | |
| context. Each is sometimes used in ways that impede, rather than | |
| enlighten, discussions of public land policy. | |
| Conservation | |
| This was the label often attached to the movement that began to | |
| flower in the 1890s to hold significant amounts of land in national | |
| ownership and manage them for broad public purposes. The conservation | |
| movement led to the creation of the national forest system. | |
| Because minerals, timber and grasses on national forest lands could | |
| be, and sometimes were, extracted or exploited, the label | |
| ``conservation'' has sometimes been used to describe a policy that not | |
| merely allows, but prioritizes, mining, logging and similar intensive | |
| uses. | |
| The events described in detail in my book make clear that this is | |
| not an accurate description. The overriding purpose of the | |
| ``conservation movement'' was not to promote logging and mining. | |
| Rather, it was to hold onto land the U.S. already owned--and to buy | |
| even more land--primarily to foster healthy watershed conditions, to | |
| safeguard water supplies for downstream uses. (That's why most of the | |
| national forests in the nation are found in the upper reaches of | |
| watersheds.) | |
| The national forest system was established by a combination of | |
| congressional and executive action between 1891 and 1940. The vast | |
| majority of the lands included within this system were put there | |
| because people from the areas most affected sought that result. | |
| My book illustrates this with many examples. Here is one. Congress | |
| gave the president authority to establish what came to be known as | |
| forest reserves in 1891. Around this time, a memorial from the Colorado | |
| State Forestry Association, endorsed by state officials, the chambers | |
| of commerce of Denver \3\ and Colorado Springs, and 500 leading | |
| citizens, recommending reserving ``all public lands'' along six miles | |
| either side of the crests of mountain ranges across the entire state. | |
| Republican President Benjamin Harrison promptly used the authority | |
| Congress had given him to establish what is now called the White River | |
| National Forest on more than a million acres west of Denver. (Today it | |
| attracts more visitors than any other national forest in the nation.) | |
| In 1892, Harrison established three other reserves in Colorado, | |
| including one around Pikes Peak. Following a visit to that reserve the | |
| following year, Katharine Lee Bates was inspired to write of ``purple | |
| mountain majesties'' in her stirring composition ``America the | |
| Beautiful.'' \4\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \3\ Denver's population had grown from 5000 in 1860 to more than | |
| 100,000 in 1890. Even back then, the arid West was the nation's most | |
| urban region. | |
| \4\ Our Common Ground, pp. 177-80. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Because most of the land in the western states were then still | |
| owned by the U.S. government--even though some of it had already been | |
| logged or mined--the lands put in the national forests were | |
| ``reserved''--that is, put off limits from laws like the Homestead Act, | |
| the railroad land grant acts, and other laws that aimed to transfer | |
| ownership out of federal hands. | |
| In 1897, Congress enacted legislation that established the purposes | |
| of this young national forest system. It remained the basic governing | |
| authority for the next 80 years. It provided that national forests were | |
| established to ``improve and protect'' the forest, secure ``favorable | |
| conditions of water flows,'' and ``furnish a continuous supply of | |
| timber for the use and necessities of citizens of the United States.'' | |
| The legislation allowed mineral activity on these lands, but only a | |
| relatively small portion of national forest land has been subject to | |
| oil and gas development and other mineral activity.\5\ The 1897 | |
| legislation was silent on livestock grazing, even though it was then | |
| occurring on many of these lands.\6\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \5\ Our Common Ground, at 241-42, 446-48, 503-08, 598-99. | |
| \6\ Id. at 192-99. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| In 1911, with strong bipartisan support, Congress enacted the so- | |
| called Weeks Act. It launched a major program to buy back into national | |
| ownership, and manage as part of the national forest system, lands | |
| located mostly in the upper reaches of watersheds in the East, South | |
| and Midwest. Many of these lands had been severely logged over, | |
| exacerbating erosion and contributing to damaging floods. Restoring | |
| such lands to health was a primary purpose of the legislation, making | |
| it the first major environmental restoration program in the nation's | |
| history. These lands were acquired from willing-seller private owners, | |
| with the consent of the pertinent state.\7\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \7\ Id. at 306-14; 342-43; 428-29. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| In the early decades, the amount of national forest land | |
| commercially logged remained low. At the beginning of World War II the | |
| logging rate increased substantially and remained high for a few | |
| decades. Starting in the 1980s it began to decline back to its pre-WWII | |
| level, where it has generally remained, as the wood products industry | |
| looked elsewhere for supplies, the technology of wood use changed | |
| substantially, and substitutes for wood grew more popular. | |
| Multiple Use | |
| Although national forests (as well as lands now managed by the | |
| Bureau of Land Management) had long been subject to many different | |
| uses, including recreation, it was not until the 1930s that the term | |
| ``multiple use'' first began to be used informally in describing | |
| national forest lands. Congress did not put the idea into law until | |
| 1960, when it enacted the so-called Multiple-Use Sustained-Yield Act | |
| (MUSY).\8\ It identified five ``multiple uses''--``outdoor recreation, | |
| range, timber, watershed, and wildlife and fish purposes.'' (Minerals | |
| were not identified as one of the uses, but the Congress had previously | |
| specified that the mining and mineral leasing laws could apply on | |
| national forest land.) | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \8\ Id. at 346-47; 429-30, 446-49; 16 U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 528-531. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| In the MUSY Act, Congress directed the Forest Service to use the | |
| ``various renewable surface resources of the national forests . . . in | |
| the combination that will best meet the needs of the American people,'' | |
| recognizing that ``some land will be used for less than all of the | |
| resources.'' It also called for the agency to achieve ``harmonious and | |
| coordinated management of the various resources, each with the other, | |
| without impairment of the productivity of the land, with consideration | |
| being given to the relative values of the various resources, and not | |
| necessarily the combination of uses that will give the greatest dollar | |
| return or the greatest unit output.'' | |
| Preservation | |
| This term is used in public land law primarily in the so-called | |
| Wilderness Act that Congress enacted in 1964.\9\ It established the | |
| National Wilderness Preservation System (NWPS). Congress had | |
| deliberated over that legislation for eight years, and had anticipated | |
| its enactment in 1960 by providing in the MUSY Act that the | |
| ``establishment and maintenance of areas of wilderness are consistent | |
| with'' the multiple use idea.\10\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \9\ 16 U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 1131-1134. | |
| \10\ Our Common Ground, pp. 461-76; 16 U.S.C. Sec. 529. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Congress also, at the insistence of Cong. Wayne Aspinall (D-CO), | |
| made itself the gatekeeper of the NWPS. That is, the only way lands can | |
| be put into the System is through an act of Congress. This enhanced the | |
| influence of the individual Senators and House members because a | |
| powerful, long-standing custom in the Congress gives members a power | |
| approaching a veto over legislation that applies particularly to their | |
| states or districts. It is, in other words, difficult to put public | |
| lands into the NWPS without the approval or at least acquiescence of | |
| the most directly affected members of Congress. | |
| While the Wilderness Act contemplated that lands put in the system | |
| would generally remain free from roads, motorized vehicles, and | |
| extractive activities like logging and mining, the Act did not require | |
| ``preservation'' of wilderness lands in the strict sense of the word. | |
| Congress allowed mineral leasing and location of mining claims to | |
| continue in national forest Wilderness areas until 1984. It also | |
| allowed logging and authorized the president to approve the building of | |
| water projects in national forest Wilderness areas under certain | |
| conditions.\11\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \11\ 16 U.S.C. Sec. 1133(d)(1), (3) and (4). Subsection (d)(1), for | |
| example, allows the Agriculture Secretary to take ``such measures . . . | |
| as may be necessary in the control of fire, insects, and diseases, | |
| subject to such conditions as the Secretary deems desirable.'' | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Aspinall was not enthusiastic about limiting intensive industrial | |
| uses of public lands, and expected that making Congress the gatekeeper | |
| would sharply limit the size of this new NWPS. He was wrong. He | |
| seriously underestimated the support that would develop at the | |
| grassroots for limiting such intensive uses of public lands. In fact, | |
| since 1964, Congress has enacted many dozens of individual pieces of | |
| legislation cumulatively putting more than 100 million acres of public | |
| land in the NWPS. | |
| The wilderness movement has had strong bipartisan support. For | |
| example, in the early 1980s, President Ronald Reagan's first Interior | |
| Secretary, James Watt, proposed to issue oil and gas leases on millions | |
| of acres of national forest land in the NWPS before the window Congress | |
| enacted in 1964 closed. A strong bipartisan coalition in the affected | |
| states and in Congress thwarted him. Reagan, an astute politician, then | |
| moved swiftly to the middle on public lands issues, working with | |
| Congress to follow the well-worn path to protect more public lands. In | |
| 1984, with the Senate in Republican control, Reagan signed legislation | |
| adding more than 8 million acres to the NWPS. It proved to be the | |
| largest addition in any single year since the Wilderness Act was | |
| enacted in 1964 (except for the special case of Alaska). Indeed, before | |
| he left office, Reagan signed legislation putting more acreage in the | |
| lower 48 states in the NWPS than any president before or since.\12\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \12\ Our Common Ground, pp. 470-72; 577-78. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| The Modern Era of Congressional Zoning of Public Lands | |
| The Wilderness Act ushered in a new era of Congress spelling out in | |
| particular laws what uses can and cannot take place on particular areas | |
| of public lands. Since 1964, Congress has enacted many dozens of such | |
| laws giving areas managed by the Forest Service and the BLM labels like | |
| national recreation area, conservation area, scenic area, preserve and | |
| so forth. Each sets out management specifications that make | |
| conservation and recreation the primary objectives of management. Each | |
| limits agency discretion by ruling out or strongly discouraging | |
| roadbuilding, mining, timber harvesting and the like. Each label brings | |
| more visibility to areas' natural and cultural qualities, attracting | |
| more recreational uses and stimulating tourism and recreation-based | |
| economic activity.\13\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \13\ Id., pp. 477-83; 509-12. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Congress established the first national recreation area in 1964. | |
| There are now more than three dozen across the country. Beginning in | |
| the 1960s Congress established nearly a dozen national seashores and | |
| lakeshores. In 1968 Congress enacted the Wild & Scenic Rivers Act, | |
| which operates much like Wilderness Act in establishing a national | |
| system of designated rivers. Congress established the first national | |
| conservation area in 1970; there are now seventeen. Congress | |
| established the first two national preserves in 1974; there are now | |
| nearly two dozen. Congress has established national scenic areas and | |
| sometimes fashioned unique labels.\14\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \14\ Id., pp. 353, 393, 434-35, 478-82, 489, 493, 501, 542, 580. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| In doing all this, Congress has rarely discriminated among the four | |
| principal land management agencies. Thus, today, the BLM and the Forest | |
| Service (as well as the USFWS and the NPS) each looks after millions of | |
| acres in the NWPS, numerous wild and scenic river segments, national | |
| recreation areas and other similar areas. | |
| Congress also asserted its authority in a more generic way, by | |
| enacting new management charters, or ``organic acts,'' as they are | |
| known, for all four agencies--BLM and Forest Service in 1976, FWS in | |
| 1997, and NPS in 1998. In each Congress gave clear marching orders to | |
| pay close attention to science and the environment in all agency | |
| decisions. | |
| The Bureau of Land Management ``Organic Act'' | |
| Enacted by Congress in 1976, BLM's managing charter is called the | |
| Federal Land Policy and Management Act (FLPMA, commonly if inelegantly | |
| pronounced ``flip-ma''). It put into law nearly all of the | |
| recommendations of the Public Land Law Review Commission--a bipartisan | |
| body dominated by westerners--that Congress had established several | |
| years earlier. The congressional conference committee that crafted the | |
| bill was dominated by western members of the House and the Senate. | |
| Republican President Gerald Ford signed it into law in October 1976, a | |
| few weeks before he was defeated by Jimmy Carter.\15\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \15\ Our Common Ground, pp. 449, 473-74, 490-98. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| FLPMA's broad thrust was a call for greener management of BLM- | |
| managed public lands. Congress declared that the BLM lands should be | |
| managed for ``multiple use and sustained yield,'' in a manner that | |
| will, among other things, ``protect the quality of scientific, scenic, | |
| historical, ecological, environmental, air and atmospheric, water | |
| resource, and archeological values; that where appropriate, will | |
| preserve and protect certain public lands in their natural condition; | |
| that will provide food and habitat for fish and wildlife and domestic | |
| animals; and that will provide for outdoor recreation and human | |
| occupancy and use.'' \16\ Congress defined ``multiple use'' in FLPMA | |
| similar to how it did in the 1960 MUSY Act, but even more expansively, | |
| adding ``natural scenic, scientific and historical values'' to the list | |
| of uses. 43 USC Sec. 1702(c). ``One of the most important developments | |
| in public land policy in the last half century,'' as my book puts it, | |
| is how the BLM, which was long derided as the ``bureau of livestock and | |
| mining,'' has--with the strong, bipartisan encouragement of the U.S. | |
| Congress--made conservation, protection of cultural resources and | |
| recreation a major focus of its management. This had been neatly | |
| captured in the change in the BLM's logo--from depicting a miner, | |
| logger, rancher, engineer and surveyor looking out on an industrial | |
| landscape to a sketch of mountains, meadows, a river and a tree. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \16\ 43 U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 1701(a)(7) and (8). | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Congress and the executive took another step in this direction by | |
| establishing a category of what Congress in 2009 labeled ``National | |
| Conservation Lands'' when it gave this system a statutory underpinning. | |
| On these lands, most nonrecreational uses are either excluded or | |
| sharply limited, and the system includes tens of millions of acres | |
| across the eleven western states and Alaska.\17\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \17\ Our Common Ground, pp. 500-01, 580. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Summing Up Congressional Guidance to the Forest Service and the BLM | |
| As the BLM metamorphosis illustrates, over recent decades Congress | |
| has directed it and the Forest Service to emphasize conservation and | |
| recreation on the public lands they manage. Thus today, both agencies | |
| (as well as the USFWS and the NPS) look after many millions of acres | |
| that carry labels that emphasize protection and conservation. All this | |
| has substantially blurred distinctions among the four agencies. The net | |
| effect is that, regardless of which agency is in charge, America's | |
| public lands are generally managed more for open space conservation and | |
| recreation than anything else.\18\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \18\ Id., pp. 585-95. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| This increased congressional activism in ``zoning'' public land | |
| areas has also enhanced the durability of these protections, because it | |
| is almost unheard of for Congress to reverse itself on these matters. | |
| In short, the arc of public lands management has consistently bent | |
| toward protecting more and more land.\19\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \19\ Id., 509-12. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| ``Withdrawals'' of Public Lands from Mining and Mineral Leasing | |
| A substantial amount of BLM and national forest public land has | |
| been formally ``withdrawn,'' that is, put off limits from industrial | |
| uses, especially mineral development under the Mining Law of 1872 and | |
| the mineral leasing acts. Withdrawals can be made in three primary | |
| ways--by Congress by legislation, by the president using the authority | |
| Congress provided in various laws, primarily the Antiquities Act | |
| (discussed in the next section), and by the Interior Secretary. | |
| Although a comprehensive compilation of withdrawals has not, to my | |
| knowledge, been done for many decades, I believe that Congress itself | |
| has been responsible for more withdrawn acreage than either the | |
| president or the Interior Department. Most of these have been done in | |
| laws that add land to the National Wilderness Preservation System, or | |
| that give particular areas labels like national recreation areas and | |
| the others discussed earlier. In almost every case each of these laws | |
| making withdrawals had support from the congressional delegation of the | |
| pertinent state. It seems highly unlikely, then, that there would be a | |
| groundswell of interest in undoing such withdrawals. | |
| Some have suggested that too many of the public lands have been | |
| withdrawn from mineral development. Such complaints have had a long | |
| history. In 1976, Congress addressed the issue in FLPMA.\20\ It | |
| directed that, before the end of 1991, the Interior Secretary review | |
| all existing withdrawals on BLM and national forest land in the eleven | |
| contiguous western states, other than lands in the NWPS or national | |
| recreation areas where Congress had made the withdrawals. The review | |
| was to determine whether each withdrawal was ``consistent with the | |
| statutory objectives'' governing the lands. The Secretary was to make | |
| recommendations to the president, and the president to the Congress, | |
| and the relevant congressional committees, as to whether to terminate | |
| withdrawals. To the best of my knowledge, that review did not result in | |
| many withdrawals being rescinded. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \20\ Our Common Ground, pp. 495-97. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Also in FLPMA, Congress regularized the process for the Interior | |
| Secretary to make new withdrawals of public land from mining and | |
| mineral leasing laws. It also put a twenty-year time limit on such | |
| withdrawals, although they can be renewed.\21\ Relatively few | |
| withdrawals have been made by the Interior Department since FLPMA was | |
| enacted. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \21\ 43 U.S.C. Sec. 1714. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| While the president has withdrawn substantial amounts of public | |
| land using the Antiquities Act (as described in the next section), many | |
| tens of millions of acres of public land remain open to the mining and | |
| mineral leasing laws. Currently, oil and gas leases cover more than 26 | |
| million acres of BLM and national forest land, or about 6% of the total | |
| acres they manage. About half of that leased area is currently | |
| producing oil and gas. The BLM has issued several thousand (currently | |
| unused) permits to drill on leases that are not now in production.\22\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \22\ See generally https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/report- | |
| on-the-federal-oil-and-gas-leasing-program-doi-eo-14008.pdf. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Presidential Use of the Antiquities Act Has Been an Effective and | |
| Popular Tool for Protecting Public Lands \23\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \23\ This section draws heavily on my guest opinion essay published | |
| in the March 5, 2023 New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/ | |
| 05/opinion/national-parks-bears-ears-monuments. html. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Congress enacted the Antiquities Act in 1906. It authorizes the | |
| president to protect ``historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric | |
| structures, and other objects of historic or scientific interest'' on | |
| the public lands. (The law dubbed these areas national ``monuments'' | |
| because Congress reserved for itself the right to label a protected | |
| area of public lands a national ``park.'') | |
| President Theodore Roosevelt, who signed the Act into law, wasted | |
| no time in vigorously using the authority. In early 1908, frustrated by | |
| Congress's failure to protect the Grand Canyon as a national park, | |
| Roosevelt used the act to protect more than 800,000 acres as the Grand | |
| Canyon National Monument. | |
| His example was followed by almost all of his successors, both | |
| Republican and Democrat. Altogether, presidents have collectively | |
| established well over 150 national monuments that have safeguarded more | |
| than 100 million acres of wild and historic places onshore, and many | |
| more offshore. | |
| Almost without exception, Congress has endorsed or refused to | |
| disturb these presidential actions. Eleven years after Roosevelt used | |
| the Act at Grand Canyon, Congress enlarged that protected area and made | |
| it a National Park. In fact, nearly half of the 63 national parks | |
| established by Congress--including such other crown jewels as Arches, | |
| Bryce, Capitol Reef and Zion in Utah, Acadia in Maine, Olympic in | |
| Washington, and Death Valley in California--were first protected by | |
| presidents using the Antiquities Act. | |
| Only twice in 116 years has Congress limited a president's power | |
| under the Antiquities Act. The first time was in 1950, when Congress | |
| added Franklin Roosevelt's Jackson Hole National Monument to the Grand | |
| Teton National Park it had earlier established, but at the same time | |
| forbade future use of the act in Wyoming. Congress did something | |
| similar in 1980. It curbed future presidential use of the Act in Alaska | |
| at the same time it was safeguarding 104 million acres of public land | |
| in that state, including 56 million acres in national monuments Jimmy | |
| Carter had established two years previously. | |
| Both the U.S. Supreme Court and lower federal courts have | |
| consistently rejected claims that presidents abused their Antiquities | |
| Act authority. In 1920, for example, the Supreme Court unanimously | |
| upheld Roosevelt's Grand Canyon National Monument. Similarly, a federal | |
| judge in Utah ruled that President Clinton's decision to protect nearly | |
| two million acres of public land in southern Utah in the Grand | |
| Staircase-Escalante National Monument (GSENM) was within the ``broad | |
| grant of discretion'' Congress made in the Antiquities Act, leaving the | |
| courts ``no authority to determine whether the President abused his | |
| discretion.'' (The principal plaintiff in that case, an association of | |
| Utah counties, did not seek review in higher courts.) \24\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \24\ Cameron v. United States, 252 U.S. 450 (1920); Utah | |
| Association of Counties v. Bush, 316 F. Supp. 2d 1172 (D. Utah 2004). | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| The GSENM, along with the nearby Bears Ears National Monument | |
| (which had been established, after a persuasive campaign by an inter- | |
| Tribal coalition, by President Barack Obama in 2016) protect | |
| magnificent Utah landscapes stretching across more than three million | |
| acres of public lands. Now these two have become legal battlegrounds. | |
| In 2017, President Donald Trump reduced by more than half the size | |
| of the Grand Staircase-Escalante and Bears Ears. Four years later, | |
| President Biden restored them. Last August, the state of Utah filed a | |
| lawsuit in Federal District Court in Utah challenging Mr. Biden's | |
| action. Utah's complaint explicitly seeks to have the federal courts | |
| all but eviscerate the power Congress gave the president in the | |
| Antiquities Act. | |
| There is irony here, because Utah's complaint also explicitly | |
| acknowledges how successful these two protected areas have been in | |
| attracting visitors. Utah argues this is a bad thing because visitors | |
| are damaging the resources and getting lost, taxing local search and | |
| rescue teams. But rather than working with Congress to provide more | |
| funds to manage visitors, Utah is asking unelected judges to intervene | |
| to strip protections from these areas--as if that would make them less | |
| attractive to visit. | |
| In fact, Utah, like many western states, has benefited enormously | |
| from the long history of Congress and the executive branch working | |
| together to protect public lands. For years, its Office of Tourism has | |
| touted what it calls the state's ``Mighty Five'' national parks--four | |
| of which were first protected by presidents using the Antiquities Act. | |
| Congress has also been responsive to some concerns Utah has raised. | |
| It has acceded to the state's request to make modest adjustments in the | |
| boundaries of Grand Staircase-Escalante. It has also enacted three laws | |
| that gave Utah hundreds of thousands of acres of federal lands with | |
| mineral and other development potential in exchange for hundreds of | |
| thousands of state lands scattered inside the Grand Staircase-Escalante | |
| and other protected areas. (A similar plan is being developed for state | |
| lands inside the Bears Ears National Monument.) And in 2019, President | |
| Trump signed into law a bill supported by the Utah congressional | |
| delegation that added protections to about a million acres of public | |
| lands not far from these two contested monuments. | |
| Protecting More of our Public Lands Should Be a Key Element of National | |
| Climate Policy and of Meeting the Target--Embraced by Nearly All | |
| Nations--of Protecting 30% of the Planet's Land by 2030 | |
| The Nation's public lands offer many opportunities for tackling the | |
| challenge of limiting carbon emissions. These lands can be managed to | |
| promote sequestration of carbon and mitigation of greenhouse gas | |
| emissions, at the same time they help protect biodiversity and serve | |
| other goals like stimulating the economy. | |
| The Biden Administration's ``America the Beautiful'' initiative is | |
| a laudable effort in that direction. Recent congressional initiatives, | |
| especially the bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation | |
| Reduction Act, are also promoting powerful steps down that path. | |
| Conclusion | |
| Practically every opinion poll taken for many years in the West, as | |
| well in the rest of the nation, shows large majorities of Americans | |
| from both political parties revere and want more and better protected | |
| public lands.\25\ Because they show the political process working as it | |
| is supposed to work, where Congress and the executive branch respond to | |
| and accurately reflect public opinion, today's public lands should be | |
| celebrated. Bringing more attention to success stories is particularly | |
| important in our polarized era, where many are skeptical that anything | |
| good can come out of the Nation's capital. (It is a major reason I | |
| wrote Our Common Ground.) | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \25\ See, e.g., the poll results recently released by Colorado | |
| College's State of the Rockies Project, which has for several years | |
| surveyed Republicans and Democrats in every state in the intermountain | |
| West on a range of public land issues. https://www.coloradocollege.edu/ | |
| other/stateoftherockies/conservationinthewest/2023.html. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| As President Richard Nixon put it in 1971, the public lands give | |
| the nation ``breathing space,'' a vast public asset that nurtures | |
| national pride, physical and mental health, a spirit of community in an | |
| increasingly diverse nation, and offers countless millions of people | |
| life-changing encounters with nature, at the same time public-lands- | |
| related tourism has become the economic anchor of many communities. | |
| That last point deserves emphasis. The story of America's public | |
| lands is not one of creeping socialism. All who live in areas with | |
| abundant public lands know that they provide many opportunities for | |
| private enterprise. The continuing emphasis on protecting public lands | |
| illustrates how tourism and recreation-dependent businesses have become | |
| a major economic driver in many smaller communities in the West as well | |
| as elsewhere, making the economic contributions of traditional | |
| activities like mining, logging, and livestock grazing pale by | |
| comparison.\26\ | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| \26\ Our Common Ground, pp. 561-62; 598-601. | |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| Public land policy has also begun, admittedly tardily, to better | |
| reflect societal diversity and to acknowledge past injustices. Although | |
| Native Americans, women, and people of color were largely excluded from | |
| participating in many key decisions of public land policy, that is | |
| happily no longer the case. Because these lands remain subject to the | |
| will of the electorate--a group defined more broadly than ever before-- | |
| they can help redress past injustices and again demonstrate our ability | |
| as a people to work together and find common ground. | |
| In his seminal work The Wealth of Nations, published the same year | |
| as the Declaration of Independence, the Scottish philosopher Adam | |
| Smith, the champion of free-market capitalism, made a strong case for | |
| private ownership of land, but for a single exception. A ``great and | |
| civilized'' nation, he wrote, ought to own and hold lands ``for the | |
| purposes of pleasure and magnificence'' for everyone's benefit. All | |
| Americans should be thankful that our national government, responding | |
| to public opinion, has heeded Smith's advice. | |
| Thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. | |
| ______ | |
| Mr. Tiffany [presiding]. Thank you, Mr. Leshy. | |
| Finally, I would like to introduce Mr. Phil Rigdon, the | |
| Vice President of the Inter-Tribal Timber Council. Mr. Rigdon | |
| is also the Natural Resource Superintendent for the Yakama | |
| Nation in Washington State. | |
| Like our Committee Chairman, Mr. Westerman, Mr. Rigdon | |
| holds a Master of Forestry from the Yale School of Forestry. | |
| Until I came to Congress, I did not realize Yale turned out | |
| so many fine foresters. | |
| [Laughter.] | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Rigdon, you are now recognized for 5 | |
| minutes. | |
| STATEMENT OF PHIL RIGDON, SUPERINTENDENT, DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL | |
| RESOURCES, YAKAMA NATION, AND VICE PRESIDENT, INTER-TRIBAL | |
| TIMBER COUNCIL | |
| Mr. Rigdon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the | |
| Subcommittee. | |
| [Speaking native language.] That is ``good morning'' in | |
| Ichishkiin. | |
| I thank you on behalf of the Inter-Tribal and more than 60 | |
| member tribes. I appreciate the opportunity to share some of | |
| the lessons of forest conservation from a tribal perspective. | |
| All of America's forests were once managed and shaped and | |
| were lived upon by our ancestors and the people there. These | |
| lands were shaped by us and through directly today, 18 million | |
| acres of that has continued to be managed working with the | |
| Bureau of Indian Affairs. | |
| I believe the tribal notion of conservation is different | |
| from that seen on other lands in Federal ownership. Pursuant to | |
| both tribal direction and Federal law, tribal forests must be | |
| managed sustainably. | |
| Indian tribes work with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and | |
| others to actively manage our forests and other resources with | |
| a holistic, integrated approach that strives to simultaneously | |
| sustain economic, ecological, and cultural values, or the so- | |
| called triple bottom line to us. | |
| We operate modern, innovative, and comprehensive natural | |
| resource programs premised on connectiveness among the land, | |
| resources, and our people. | |
| For example, when we look at or mention a piece of land, we | |
| are not just looking at one resource. We are thinking about the | |
| timber value, the habitat, resources for our deer, elk, impacts | |
| to water quality, and the impacts to salmon and those things | |
| that we value. | |
| In the time not so long ago, this used to be called | |
| multiple use management and was practiced on Federal lands. | |
| Unfortunately, we have seen too often Federal land managers | |
| crippled by single use designations like wilderness area and | |
| those type of things. | |
| They virtually eliminate the ability to respond to bugs, | |
| insect disease, and to look at the values of what those forests | |
| had previously prepared. | |
| Very rarely will you find designations like wilderness | |
| within Indian Country. For example, our forest, we have an area | |
| called the primitive area, and it is an important part that we | |
| use for traditional purposes. | |
| But just like while there is an emphasis to hold it into | |
| that manner, we function in the purpose. We are willing to go | |
| and address insect disease, fire outbreaks, and it is through | |
| our tribal leadership that takes the step. | |
| No such action or flexibility is possible with some of | |
| these Federal laws, so I believe the forest tribal approach is | |
| better balanced. It looks at the need of the land and looking | |
| at conservation to solve those things. | |
| We protect our resources, yet we understand that | |
| utilization is essential to sustain the health of our forests | |
| and meet the triple bottom line. We rely on our forests to | |
| provide employment and economic opportunities, to generate | |
| income needed to care for our land and provide services for our | |
| communities. | |
| I have been given the honor and responsibility to manage | |
| our tribe's natural resources. I am accountable to my | |
| government as well as to our membership. | |
| If we harvest too much, I get feedback from members that | |
| live in our part of the land. If we do not harvest enough, I | |
| also hear it from the Yakama Forest parks and the community | |
| members. | |
| We deal with both feedbacks, and that feedback is personal, | |
| from the supermarkets to across the dinner table. We get | |
| feedback right away onto what we are doing, and I think that | |
| goes into the direct accountability, at least that balance that | |
| is necessary with competing needs. | |
| I believe this ultimately leads to better conservation of | |
| all resources, whether it is wildlife habitat, traditional | |
| medicines, and foods, or timber itself. | |
| It is important to recognize that the conservation is to | |
| prevent the loss of those values that we want to retain on the | |
| land, and you are seeing those types of events happen across | |
| the landscape, and it matters. | |
| And it is the tribes using co-management and stewardship | |
| opportunities, working with communities and NGOs and taking the | |
| lead in those statuses to implement projects. | |
| It is maintaining the forest infrastructure that is | |
| necessary to do the habitat work that is both for wildland fire | |
| and reducing those types of risks. | |
| But it is also restoring salmon. It is restoring | |
| watersheds. It is making sure that we are doing the balanced | |
| approach that is necessary for us to be successful and to make | |
| sure that we leave something behind. | |
| You are seeing these catastrophic fires throughout the West | |
| that are destroying hundreds of thousands of acres. | |
| We believe there is a role that tribes and the communities | |
| play into making sure that those are protected and managed in | |
| better ways. | |
| And with that I thank you for the opportunity to testify. | |
| [The prepared statement of Mr. Rigdon follows:] | |
| Prepared Statement of Phil Rigdon, Superintendent, Department of | |
| Natural Resources, Yakama Nation & Vice-President, | |
| Inter-Tribal Timber Council | |
| I am Phil Rigdon, Vice-President of the Intertribal Timber Council | |
| (ITC) and Natural Resource Superintendent for the Yakama Nation in | |
| south-central Washington State. On behalf of the ITC and its more than | |
| 60 member Tribes, I appreciate this opportunity to share some of the | |
| lessons of forest conservation from a tribal perspective. | |
| All of America's forests were once inhabited, managed and used by | |
| Indian people. Today, only a small portion of those lands remain under | |
| direct Indian management. On a total of 334 reservations in 36 states, | |
| 18.6 million acres of forests and woodlands are held in trust by the | |
| United States and managed for the benefit of Indians. | |
| I believe that the Indian notion of ``conservation'' is different | |
| from that seen on other lands in the federal estate. Pursuant to both | |
| tribal direction and federal law, tribal forests must be sustainably | |
| managed. Indian tribes work with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and | |
| others to actively manage our forests and other resources within a | |
| holistic, integrated approach that strives to simultaneously sustain | |
| economic, ecological, and cultural values, the so-called ``triple | |
| bottom line.'' | |
| We operate modern, innovative and comprehensive natural resource | |
| programs premised on connectedness among the land, resources, and | |
| people. For example, when we look at managing a piece of land, we're | |
| not just looking at one resource. We're thinking about the timber | |
| value, habitat resources for our deer and elk hunters, impacts to water | |
| quality where salmon live, and so forth. | |
| In a time not so long ago, this used to be called ``multiple use'' | |
| management on federal lands! Unfortunately, we see too often federal | |
| land managers crippled by single-use designations, like wilderness | |
| areas, that by definition preclude management activities. This | |
| virtually eliminates the ability to respond to bugs and disease, over- | |
| stocking, climate-driven mortality . . . and of course wildfire. | |
| Very rarely will you find designations like ``wilderness'' in | |
| Indian Country. For example, the Yakama Forest is managed under the | |
| following emphasis categories: primitive, general, recreation, | |
| traditional use, winter wildlife habitat and riparian areas. While of | |
| these designations is an emphasis, it is not an exclusive use. | |
| Our Primitive areas generally function like wilderness areas on | |
| federal lands. However, in emergency circumstances like bug or disease | |
| outbreak, Tribal Council may approve management actions to address that | |
| crisis. No such action or flexibility is possible in federal wilderness | |
| areas. | |
| I believe the Indian forest management approach is better balanced. | |
| It is more focused on conservation of a resource than prohibition of an | |
| activity. We protect our resources; yet we understand that utilization | |
| is essential to sustain the health of our forests and meet the ``triple | |
| bottom line.'' We rely on our forests to provide employment and | |
| entrepreneurial opportunities and to generate income needed to care for | |
| the land and provide services for our communities. | |
| I have been given the honor and responsibility to manage my tribe's | |
| natural resources. I am accountable to my tribal government as well as | |
| our membership. If we harvest too much timber, I get feedback from | |
| tribal members who are responsible for gathering medicines and foods | |
| from the forest. If we don't harvest enough timber, I get feedback from | |
| our mill workers at Yakama Forest Products. | |
| When I say ``feedback''--I don't mean constituent letters like | |
| Members of Congress get. I mean very personal feedback. We're a small | |
| community and my friends, neighbors and family members all know how to | |
| find me--in the aisles of a supermarket or across the dinner table. | |
| This direct accountability leads to the optimal balance of | |
| competing needs. I believe this ultimately leads to better conservation | |
| of all resources, whether it be wildlife habitat, traditional medicines | |
| and foods, or timber. | |
| One element of ``conservation'' is to prevent wasteful use of a | |
| resource. Catastrophic wildfire is perhaps the greatest waste of our | |
| forest resources. Stand replacement fires, driven by dense forests and | |
| drier climate, kill millions of wildlife, pollute the air, sterilizes | |
| the soil and destroy timber resources. In many cases, these large, | |
| intense fires sacrifice the very values certain ``protected'' areas | |
| were set aside for. | |
| Wildfire is challenging some of the old concepts and tools of | |
| conservation. In Indian Country, we are tackling that head-on. We | |
| respond quickly to forest health challenges. We fight fires | |
| aggressively when they threaten resources, but we also use prescribed | |
| fire aggressively when circumstances allow it. After fires, we prevent | |
| waste by utilizing dead trees and protecting the remaining resources | |
| from the risk of re-burn. | |
| I am encouraged by the growing number of tribally driven forest | |
| health projects on federal lands. We are using tools like the Tribal | |
| Forest Protection Act, Good Neighbor Authority and Reserved Treaty | |
| Rights Lands funding to bring our traditional and modern knowledge to | |
| make federal lands more resilient to disturbance such as wildfire. | |
| Many tribes continue to have treaty and other interests in the | |
| productivity of federal forest lands. My tribe, for example, exercises | |
| its right to harvest huckleberries, deer and elk on several National | |
| Forests. It is in our interest to conserve these resources and the | |
| healthy forests that produce them. In doing so, we are improving the | |
| forests for all Americans. | |
| We invite the members of this Committee to visit Indian Country and | |
| see for yourselves what conservation looks like on our lands. | |
| Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. | |
| ______ | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Rigdon. | |
| When you refer to across the dinner table, are you saying | |
| your wife gives you advice now and then? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. I am not married, for one thing. But my family | |
| members will talk to me quite a bit about what we are doing. A | |
| lot of times it is at Safeway where you get caught by your | |
| auntie. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Thank you very much for your testimony. | |
| The Chair will now recognize Members for 5 minutes for | |
| questions. | |
| First, the gentleman from California, Mr. McClintock. | |
| Mr. McClintock. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| Mr. Ferry, you mentioned the Federal Government owns about | |
| 63 percent of the land area of the entire state of Utah, 80 | |
| percent of Nevada. It owns 47 percent of California, including | |
| 93 percent of Alpine County. | |
| Now, just for fun, look at the state of the Federal | |
| Government here in Washington, DC. All of our Federal | |
| buildings, our memorials, our national parks, all of the | |
| Federal land in the Federal Capital, how much of that do you | |
| believe is federally owned? | |
| Mr. Ferry. I wouldn't have an idea. | |
| Mr. McClintock. The answer is 25 percent. The Federal | |
| Government owns just 3 percent of Texas, less than 1 percent of | |
| the entire state of New York, and yet nearly two-thirds of your | |
| state, four-fifths of Nevada, nearly half of California. | |
| What happens when the Federal Government owns so much of | |
| your local land? | |
| Is that land on the local tax rolls? | |
| Mr. Ferry. No, that land is not on the local tax rolls, and | |
| it has a significant impact on the local economy, on outcomes, | |
| especially when you have heavy-handed policies like NEPA that | |
| have been used as a tool to restrict our ability to manage | |
| those landscapes. | |
| Decisions are made best when the are made by a local | |
| community and local involvement. We know what is going on | |
| within our areas. | |
| Mr. McClintock. It is just human nature that the most | |
| jealous guardians of a community are the members of the | |
| community, not some far off government in Washington. | |
| Obviously, the federally owned land is highly restricted as | |
| far as any kind of productive use, correct? | |
| Mr. Ferry. That is correct. | |
| Mr. McClintock. So, commerce slows, tax revenues disappear. | |
| Now, we are told this is to protect the land. How well would | |
| you say the Federal Government takes care of that land? | |
| Mr. Ferry. It is essentially an absentee landowner. | |
| Mr. McClintock. So, basically abandoned. | |
| Louie Gohmert once compared the Federal Government's land | |
| policies of recent years to the old town miser whose | |
| dilapidated and neglected mansion is overgrown with weeds. Its | |
| paint is flaking as he spends all of his time and money | |
| scheming up ways of buying his neighbor's property. | |
| Should the Federal Government not take care of the land it | |
| already holds before acquiring still more lands? | |
| Mr. Ferry. I believe so. | |
| Mr. McClintock. How would you compare the condition of the | |
| Federal lands in Utah with those of privately held or even | |
| state-managed forests in your region? | |
| Mr. Ferry. We actively manage our forests as a state, and | |
| they are in good--the drought has had a significant impact on | |
| the state of Utah, but comparatively, our forests are well | |
| managed, as a state better managed than the Federal. | |
| Mr. McClintock. And how does that compare to the Federal | |
| Government lands? | |
| Mr. Ferry. They are better managed. Certainly, I am a big | |
| believer in active landscape management. | |
| Mr. McClintock. In my state, you can actually tell the | |
| boundary lines between the Federal lands and the private lands | |
| simply by the condition of the forests on that side of the | |
| property line. | |
| To those who say it is climate change, how clever the | |
| climate change is to know exactly where the boundaries are and | |
| to decimate the Federal lands. | |
| Mr. Espy, what are your observations from Wyoming? | |
| Mr. Espy. Thank you. | |
| Yes, my observations would be that the land that has been | |
| managed within our forest system, and I can personally attest | |
| to that. My family does own 400 acres inside the Medicine Bow- | |
| Routt National Forest in the Sierra Madre Range. In the 1990s, | |
| we went in and did a select cut within that property. | |
| When you drive down the highway in the summer, you cannot | |
| notice that that select cut occurred, but now it stands out | |
| because that is where the healthy trees are. | |
| When the beetle infestation came through our forest, it did | |
| not affect the trees on our private property up there, but it | |
| affected the trees---- | |
| Mr. McClintock. And there is a reason for that, is there | |
| not? | |
| Because you matched the density of the trees with the | |
| ability of the land to support it. So, those trees are healthy | |
| and strong, and when a bark beetle digs in, it immediately | |
| exudes sap, kills the beetle, and that is the end of it. | |
| The highly stressed, morbidly overgrown Federal lands, all | |
| because of NEPA restrictions, have decimated those trees. They | |
| are weak, fighting for their lives, trying to claim the same | |
| soil as other trees, competing for the same. | |
| This has been a story over and over again. They are | |
| stressed. They become diseased. They fall victim to disease, or | |
| pestilence, or drought, and ultimately catastrophic wildfire. | |
| Mr. Rigdon, just in a brief moment, how would you compare | |
| your tribe's management of lands compared to the adjacent | |
| Federal lands? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. I think it is very similar, and you can go | |
| across the country to our reservation in South Central | |
| Washington and see adjacent lands and how we approach | |
| management versus adjacent things better. | |
| There have been tours out in Mescalero and you see the | |
| national forest right next---- | |
| Mr. McClintock. So, excessive Federal landownership is not | |
| protecting our forests. It is destroying them. | |
| Thank you. I yield back. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. | |
| I would like to recognize Ms. Kamlager-Dove for 5 minutes. | |
| Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you, Mr. Chair. | |
| And thank you to all of the witnesses here today. | |
| I, too, believe, to Mr. Rigdon's point, in tribal | |
| definitions of conservation being different from our current | |
| interpretation, but I think it is mostly because the lands that | |
| we are talking about it is the result of American colonization | |
| and a patriarchal view of how Indigenous people should live. | |
| But I know that this hearing is not about that. Before I | |
| ask my question, I would also like to just invite all of us | |
| here to view an exhibition that is called ``A Forest for the | |
| Trees,'' and it really visually reimagines our relationship to | |
| nature done through cultural mythology, not knowledge and | |
| wisdom of tribal lands and those sovereign bodies. | |
| And it really does talk about fire. It talks about water. | |
| It talks about land, and it talks about wildlife, but once | |
| again, I know that this is not the Committee for that. | |
| But I do want to share because I was thinking about that | |
| exhibition while I was listening to all of you and how we | |
| interpret preservation, conservation, multiple use, and | |
| exchange. | |
| My question is for Mr. Leshy. | |
| Today's hearing is focused on conservation of Federal lands | |
| and forests, and with that in mind, can you elaborate on the | |
| importance of protecting national forests and safeguarding | |
| water supplies for downstream users? | |
| Mr. Leshy. Thank you very much, Ms. Kamlager-Dove, and | |
| happy to elaborate. | |
| As you know, in Southern California, California is actually | |
| kind of a premier example of how the Federal lands have been | |
| set aside and used to protect watersheds. That was the reason | |
| why the system was created back mostly in the last decade, the | |
| 19th century and first couple of decades of the 20th century. | |
| The San Gabriel Mountains, the Sierra Nevada Mountains, | |
| mostly national forest land because those were the vital water | |
| supplies for people downstream, and that system came about | |
| because local people petitioned for it all over the West. | |
| And in the East, we have a lot of Federal lands. They were | |
| all acquired from willing sellers into national ownership to | |
| protect the upper reaches of the watershed, for the same | |
| reasons. | |
| So, the story of the national forest, in particular, is the | |
| story of local people organizing and advocating to protect | |
| those watersheds which are so vital to their way of life. And | |
| over the years, it has been a big success story, so we should | |
| celebrate it. | |
| I know it is hard to celebrate things coming out of | |
| Washington as being good these days, but these public lands are | |
| a real political success story in that sense. | |
| Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Absolutely, and I think we should | |
| celebrate that. Lord knows I am looking for things to | |
| celebrate. | |
| In your experience, are bedrock environmental protections | |
| included in laws like NEPA a barrier to achieving the most | |
| desired outcomes? | |
| Mr. Leshy. I have dealt with NEPA actually on public lands | |
| issues for 50 years. I have seen it from all perspectives, | |
| inside government, outside government. It is not really a | |
| barrier. | |
| And none of these other laws are really barriers, and | |
| studies have shown that over and over actually. That is not to | |
| say there can't be tweaks that could improve the process, but | |
| they are a way for ordinary citizens on the ground in these | |
| local areas to have their voices heard. | |
| The NEPA process and processes like that, the Federal land | |
| management planning process, is a way for local people to make | |
| their voices heard, and I think it has been generally very | |
| successful. So, it is vital to protect that. | |
| Again, not to say you can't tweak it and do a little | |
| improving here and there, but I think doing away with it would | |
| be a grave mistake. | |
| Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you. | |
| I have a criminal justice background. I like to think of it | |
| as somewhat similar to due process, making sure that folks have | |
| a say and that there are checks and balances. | |
| With that, thank you for your answers to my questions. | |
| And, Mr. Chair, I yield back. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentlewoman yields. | |
| I would like to recognize the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. | |
| Lamborn, for 5 minutes. | |
| Mr. Lamborn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| Professor Leshy, you said something that I really liked. | |
| You said that a lot of these public lands decisions went | |
| through Congress and they had bipartisan or at least | |
| congressional support. The executive branch signed off on it | |
| and signed it into law. | |
| By contrast, we have the Antiquities Act, and we have | |
| Presidential proclamations, executive orders designated what | |
| started out as antiquities and has morphed into hundreds of | |
| thousands or millions of acres of designations by the Executive | |
| without congressional buy-in or signing off. | |
| And an example of that was in Colorado recently. The Camp | |
| Hale designated area was done by President Biden about a year | |
| ago, and it was done without congressional support. | |
| In fact, the Republicans whose area this encompassed were | |
| opposed to this. A lot of civic groups and citizens were | |
| opposed. | |
| Sure, there were some people in favor of it. No doubt about | |
| that, and tribes were opposed. | |
| And here is an example of a tribe. This is the Ute. The Ute | |
| Indian Tribe said in an article, dated October 13--and I would | |
| like unanimous consent to enter this into the record. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Without objection. | |
| [The information follows:] | |
| Ute Indian Tribe calls Biden's Colorado national monument designation | |
| `an unlawful act of genocide' | |
| Deseret News, October 13, 2022 by Kyle Dunphey | |
| The Ute Indian Tribe issued a scathing rebuke of President Joe Biden's | |
| designation of the Camp Hale-Continental Divide National Monument on | |
| Wednesday, calling it ``an unlawful act of genocide.'' | |
| The tribe issued a statement hours after Biden met with Colorado | |
| leaders to sign a proclamation creating the 53,000-acre monument, which | |
| encompasses a military base in the Rocky Mountains where the U.S. | |
| Army's 10th Mountain Division trained. | |
| In the statement, Ute leaders accuse the administration of not | |
| consulting or listening to the tribe's concerns prior to Wednesday. | |
| ``They moved forward with a monument on our homelands without including | |
| us. They talk about tribal consultation, but their actions do not match | |
| their words,'' the Ute Business Committee said. ``We cannot support a | |
| monument on our homelands that does not include the Tribe.'' | |
| The Utes' government headquarters is stationed in Fort Duchesne, Utah. | |
| Its tribal lands--the second largest reservation in the U.S.--span much | |
| of the Uintah Basin. | |
| However, the tribe's traditional land includes vast expanses of Utah | |
| and Colorado, and areas within the new Camp Hale-Continental Divide | |
| National Monument. In 1880, they were violently displaced from the land | |
| and forced to resettle on what is now the Uintah and Ouray Reservation | |
| in northeastern Utah. | |
| ``We are shocked that 200 years later, nothing has changed,'' the | |
| business committee said. ``This unlawful action by the president today | |
| is a desecration of our ancestors that remain buried on our homelands. | |
| Many of these Ute ancestors passed on seeking to protect these lands | |
| from further encroachment and others left us as part of the forced | |
| death march at the hands of the United States as we were moved out of | |
| Colorado at gunpoint.'' | |
| In the statement, the tribe said it had learned of Biden's plans to | |
| establish the monument just days earlier. Tribe leaders requested a | |
| call with the White House, although ``there was little time for the | |
| Tribe to share its knowledge and history of the area,'' they said. | |
| ``Instead of fully engaging the Ute Indian Tribe and its Uncompahgre | |
| Band in designating the Monument, the White House rushed forward with | |
| its own priorities,'' the tribe said Wednesday. | |
| ``. . . Every day, BLM and the state take more and more of our | |
| resources. Resources that we reserved to provide for future generations | |
| of our Tribe. The president must take action to restore and secure our | |
| Uncompahgre Reservation homelands,'' the statement reads. | |
| Meanwhile, the White House made repeated references to the Ute Tribe on | |
| Wednesday, including a promise in the proclamation to ``meaningfully | |
| engage with Tribal Nations with cultural ties to the area, including | |
| the Ute Tribes, in the development of the management plan and to inform | |
| subsequent management of the monument.'' | |
| The issue at hand for the Ute Tribe is the White House didn't seek | |
| coordination with the tribe before the proclamation. The tribe says | |
| it's tried repeatedly to get the Biden administration to adopt a tribal | |
| consultation standard--the White House has refused, they say. | |
| ``Even on our traditional homelands, they refused to work closely with | |
| us. These new monuments are an abomination and demonstrate manifest | |
| disregard and disrespect of the Ute Indian Tribe's treaty rights and | |
| sovereign status as a federally recognized Indian Tribe,'' said Shaun | |
| Chapoose, chairman of the business committee and a member of the | |
| Uncompahgre Band. ``If it's a fight they want it's a fight they will | |
| get.'' | |
| The Camp Hale region was previously managed by the Forest Service. A | |
| coalition of ranchers, conservation and outdoor recreation advocates, | |
| business owners and descendants of the 10th Mountain Division signed a | |
| letter written by Colorado Democratic Sen. Michael Bennet asking Biden | |
| to use the Antiquities Act and designate the national monument. | |
| Colorado Sen. John Hickenlooper, Gov. Jared Polis and Rep. Joe Neguse | |
| also voiced their support for the monument. | |
| ______ | |
| Mr. Lamborn. And they are quoted as saying, ``They moved | |
| forward at the monument on our homelands without including us. | |
| They talk about tribal consultation, but their actions do not | |
| match their word,'' The Ute Business Committee said. | |
| ``We cannot support a monument on our homelands that does | |
| not include the tribe.'' | |
| They also said, ``This unlawful action by the President | |
| today is a desecration of our ancestors that remain buried on | |
| our homelands. Many of these Ute ancestors passed on seeking to | |
| protect these lands from further encroachment, and others left | |
| us as part of the forced Death March at the hands of the United | |
| States as we were moved out of Colorado at gunpoint.'' | |
| In a statement the tribe said it had learned of Biden's | |
| plans to establish the monument just days earlier. Tribal | |
| leaders requested a call with the White House, although there | |
| was, ``little time for the tribe to share its knowledge and | |
| history of the area,'' they said. | |
| And in contrast the White House, I think, was not telling | |
| the truth when they said, ``They made repeated references to | |
| the Ute Tribe on Wednesday, including a promise in the | |
| proclamation'' to quote, ``meaningfully engage with tribal | |
| nations with cultural ties to the area, including the Ute | |
| Tribes, in the development of the management plan and to inform | |
| subsequent management of the monument.'' | |
| So, what I see is an abuse of the process when the | |
| executive branch will go in and not work with Congress. They | |
| will take areas that Congress would not have passed on its own | |
| and designate to become a national monument, not a National | |
| Park Service national monument, which is a different category, | |
| but an executive branch created national monument under the | |
| Antiquities Act. | |
| And I think that that is an abuse. Doing this for hundreds | |
| or millions of acres at a time I think is wrong, and not | |
| consulting with Congress or all of the people who are affected | |
| in the local decision making that should have been included. I | |
| think that that is an abuse. | |
| What do you say to that, Professor Leshy? | |
| Mr. Leshy. Thank you, Mr. Lamborn. | |
| With all respect, I have a very different perspective. On | |
| Camp Hale, I think it had substantial support among the | |
| Congressional Delegation in Colorado and among the tribes. | |
| Mr. Lamborn. Not here, and it was my district. | |
| Mr. Leshy. I think the Antiquities Act story is not one of | |
| executives seizing power, and it did not morph into something. | |
| The Antiquities Act passed in 1906. In 1908, Theodore Roosevelt | |
| set aside 800,000 acres under the Antiquities Act in the Grand | |
| Canyon. | |
| He did that unilaterally, but 11 years later, Congress made | |
| it a national park. The year after that, the Supreme Court, in | |
| reviewing the lawfulness of what Roosevelt did, unanimously | |
| said it was lawful. | |
| That set the pattern. What has happened since is, yes, the | |
| executives have used that power, but in almost every case | |
| Congress has ratified it, supported it, maybe tweaked the | |
| boundaries by legislation. | |
| Mr. Lamborn. Well, thank you. Let me interrupt for just a | |
| second. | |
| The gentleman from Utah, what about the situation in Utah | |
| with the Bears Ears area? | |
| Mr. Ferry. Thank you, Congressman. | |
| Yes, that certainly is a different situation than Utah and | |
| one that we are grappling with. It has a significant impact and | |
| one that was addressed by the Trump administration and reversed | |
| by the current administration that has decimated portions of | |
| our state. It just has, and it is a real problem. | |
| There was not broad congressional support. We did not have | |
| these types of actions. It is a recurring problem. | |
| Mr. Lamborn. Well, thank you both for your comments. | |
| And I would just say we should have a process that has more | |
| consensus and buy-in from everyone affected. | |
| With that, I yield back. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. | |
| I would like to recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes. | |
| Mr. Neguse. I thank the Chairman. | |
| I was not planning on addressing this, but just at the top | |
| here I have nothing but great respect for my distinguished | |
| colleague from Colorado. I presume he misspoke with respect to | |
| Camp Hale and that perhaps he was referring to Browns Canyon in | |
| his district. | |
| So, just to be clear, Camp Hale, so that we are all | |
| familiar with this, is in my district. I represent Eagle | |
| County. I represent Camp Hale. | |
| Camp Hale was designated a national historic site by | |
| President Biden last year. The project had the support, the | |
| designation had the support of me, as both the Representative | |
| for that district, and as Chairman of the Subcommittee on | |
| Public Lands; the support of both of our United States | |
| Senators; the support of our governor; the support of veterans | |
| both within Colorado and across the country who recognized the | |
| need to honor our nation's veterans, World War II heroes who | |
| trained in my district at Camp Hale before they defeated the | |
| Nazis in the Italian Alps. It was supported by the Ute and Ute | |
| Mountain Ute. | |
| I understand there are criticisms from some about the | |
| designation, recognizing that, but I just want to make sure | |
| factually with respect to Camp Hale, and as you can probably | |
| sense some level of defensiveness on my part because I am very | |
| proud of that designation. I am proud of the steps that we took | |
| to honor our nation's veterans and veterans in my community. | |
| Mr. Lamborn. Would the gentleman yield for 1 second? | |
| Mr. Neguse. Sure. | |
| Mr. Lamborn. You are right. I was confusing Hale and Browns | |
| Canyon. However, Hale used to be in my district, so I apologize | |
| for that overlap. | |
| Mr. Neguse. No problem. | |
| Mr. Lamborn. And I agree with many of the things you have | |
| just said. It is just that this whole process I think needs to | |
| be reformed. | |
| And I yield back. | |
| Mr. Neguse. I thank the gentleman. | |
| A couple of questions for Mr. Ferry and Commissioner Espy. | |
| First, I just want to talk a little bit about the | |
| Wilderness Act because I want to make sure that we are all | |
| operating under the same set of facts. | |
| Executive Director Ferry, welcome to the Committee. I | |
| previously served in a similar capacity as the executive | |
| director of a different cabinet agency under then Governor | |
| Hickenlooper. So, deep appreciation for the job that you have | |
| under Governor Cox in Utah. | |
| I guess I wonder. I presume you support the Wilderness Act. | |
| I understand you have some concerns about NEPA, which we can | |
| talk about, but more broadly Wilderness Act is not something | |
| that the Department opposes under Governor Cox. | |
| Mr. Ferry. Yes, that is correct. | |
| Mr. Neguse. And that makes sense, right? Because Republican | |
| Presidents and Democratic Presidents have signed into law a | |
| wide variety of wilderness designations since the enactment of | |
| the Wilderness Act over 60 years ago. | |
| President Reagan famously had enacted bills or signed bills | |
| into law that designated over 8 million acres within the West | |
| as wilderness. | |
| I am curious if you know, Director Ferry, or if you could | |
| tell us how many acres of wilderness have been designated and | |
| signed into law in your state by President Biden. | |
| Mr. Ferry. Under the current Administration, I know they | |
| were working through a couple of designations now. I am not | |
| sure of the exact acreage, but---- | |
| Mr. Neguse. I can tell you. I can tell you the answer is | |
| zero. There are none in Utah. | |
| Commissioner Espy, I presume you know as well, or you can | |
| answer this question. How many acres of wilderness have been | |
| designated in the state of Wyoming under President Biden in | |
| terms of being signed into law? | |
| Mr. Espy. None. | |
| Mr. Neguse. None. | |
| Mr. Espy. There is a bill in the previous Congress. | |
| Mr. Neguse. I understand there are bills pending, but | |
| President Biden has been in office for over 2\1/2\ years now. | |
| None in Wyoming, none in Utah. | |
| I also am sure you are familiar, Director Ferry, with this. | |
| How many acres of wilderness were designated under President | |
| Trump in your state? | |
| Mr. Ferry. We did pass a Wilderness Act impacting Utah. | |
| That was a collaborative effort between the local that had | |
| broad support. | |
| Mr. Neguse. And let me say I was not in Congress back then, | |
| but I marveled from afar. I was supportive of it because it was | |
| led by my good friend from Utah, my colleague, Mr. Curtis, and | |
| I thought, ``Boy, if I get elected to Congress, I would love to | |
| be able to do something similar,'' the Emery County Public Land | |
| Act, right, which protected 660,000 acres in Utah, 660,000 | |
| acres, also 217,000 acres in San Rafael, which I am sure you | |
| are aware of, land that was pulled back in terms of withdrawing | |
| from mineral and mineral leasing, which I am sure Mr. Curtis | |
| can talk a bit more about, but you are familiar with that, Mr. | |
| Ferry? | |
| Mr. Ferry. Yes. | |
| Mr. Neguse. So, my broader point is, again, these are | |
| actions I support. I support the protection of public lands and | |
| conserving public lands, and I just hope that my colleagues | |
| will strike this balance as we are talking about this because | |
| there is a lot of talk about the Biden administration and 30 x | |
| 30 Initiative, so on and so forth. | |
| And as I hear from the witnesses gathered today from states | |
| that are neighbors to my state, I don't hear much in terms of | |
| juxtaposed against what has happened in the past in the Trump | |
| administration, the kind of hyperbole that I have heard from my | |
| colleagues about public lands being taken off the table for any | |
| kind of use, and so on and so forth. | |
| It is not matching up with the realities that I see on the | |
| ground, and I see my time has expired. I had some questions | |
| about shared stewardship, but I will save that for the future. | |
| I thank the witnesses for being here. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. I take it the gentleman yields. | |
| Mr. Neguse. The gentleman yields. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. OK. Thank you very much. | |
| Next, I would like to recognize the gentleman from the | |
| aforementioned state of Utah, Mr. Curtis. | |
| Mr. Curtis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and my colleague, Mr. | |
| Neguse. | |
| We do have so much to share in our districts that are | |
| similar, and I thank you for bringing up the Emery County | |
| public lands bill. I actually made a big note as you were | |
| speaking about that. | |
| And I think something very, very unique about that bill is | |
| it was supported by the County Commissioners. It was supported | |
| by the Governor. It was supported by myself, the full | |
| Delegation from Utah, and we found agreement on over a million | |
| acres of public land, on how that should be used, for | |
| recreation, for extraction, for preservation. | |
| And we did it by consensus, and we did it by working with | |
| the local people and with their support. And in contrast, I | |
| think too many of our discussions here are this top-down | |
| Washington approach of mandating what will be done in somebody | |
| else's district. | |
| There is a bill that gets introduced every Congress with | |
| dozens of Members from your party legislating public lands in | |
| my district that would overturn the Emery County public lands | |
| bill. | |
| You can imagine how that makes my constituents feel, who | |
| worked so hard to find consensus on this, and one of the | |
| reasons they did it is they wanted to avoid the ambiguity | |
| moving forward that somebody would come into their town and | |
| legislate. | |
| Mr. Ferry, how many Utahans have you ever come across that | |
| felt like it was a good idea to destroy the land and leave it | |
| worse than they found it? | |
| Mr. Ferry. None. | |
| Mr. Curtis. None. I can't find a Utahan that thinks it is a | |
| good idea to destroy our land and not leave it better. | |
| Yet, too often from Washington, DC, by people who have | |
| never been there, we tell them how this land should be managed. | |
| Now, if you will indulge me for just a minute. I took a few | |
| tweets off the Internet from my colleagues across the aisle | |
| about DC and the recent bill dealing with the U.S. Congress | |
| messing in their ability to legislate crime. | |
| ``This isn't it. DC has a right to govern itself like any | |
| state or municipality.'' | |
| Next one. ``Supporting Home Rule by definition means | |
| allowing DC Government to make its own decisions.'' | |
| Next one. ``No one but the DC Government should be in | |
| charge of local policy decisions.'' | |
| If that is true, where we constitutionally have a | |
| responsibility to legislate in DC, where we live here in the | |
| community, where we understand the nuances of crime, how is | |
| that not true thousands of miles away where we have never been | |
| there, many of us, and we are making decisions and legislating | |
| to them? | |
| And I would just appeal to this group to understand this | |
| philosophy that those on the ground understand best and care | |
| the very most about preserving and protecting this land. | |
| In my district, I have a unique characteristic. You have a | |
| little bit of it. I have a lot of it. About 80 percent of my | |
| district has 90 percent of its land public land. | |
| Now think about that. If you are a local government and you | |
| are trying to raise property taxes to pay for schools, for | |
| roads, for police, and for fire, and 10 percent of your | |
| property produces property tax and you have colleagues here in | |
| Washington, DC, telling you they don't think you should be able | |
| to make any money on public lands or that you should have no | |
| ability to influence those decisions, you can see why we have | |
| conflict on these issues. | |
| So, thank you for indulging me. I'll get off my soapbox. | |
| Mr. Ferry, let me get to a little bit more specific and | |
| let's talk about permitting reform. Somehow in the state of | |
| Utah, we are permitting much quicker than they are here in | |
| Washington, DC, when we involve the Federal Government, and yet | |
| nobody is complaining about violations of the environment and | |
| things like that. | |
| Can you share some insight why Utah is so much better at | |
| this? | |
| Mr. Ferry. Well, as a state, we have that ability to plan | |
| and prepare and to make decisions that can be impactful | |
| immediately. | |
| When we look at the risk that exists to do something as | |
| simple as, say, a controlled burn to mitigate old growth | |
| forests and to try to regenerate that forest, it takes 5 years. | |
| We don't know what the weather is going to be like in 5 years. | |
| We know we can do it now. | |
| And without that immediate ability to respond to current | |
| conditions, it is really hard to manage these landscapes. | |
| Mr. Curtis. I am going to interrupt you because I have 23 | |
| seconds left. | |
| And Congressman Neguse and I co-chair the Wildfire Caucus, | |
| and I appreciate his leadership on that. | |
| Can you give us in just a tiny, tiny nutshell what we are | |
| doing that is successful in Utah? | |
| Mr. Ferry. So, the Shared Stewardship Program, fantastic | |
| program, partnership between the state and the Federal | |
| Government. | |
| We are also managing WRIS specifically, private landscape, | |
| watershed management that we are doing that is really, really | |
| impactful. These are fantastic programs. | |
| Mr. Curtis. Thank you to you and to all of our witnesses. | |
| Mr. Chair, I am out of time, unfortunately. I yield back. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. | |
| Next, I would like to recognize the gentlewoman from--are | |
| you from Oregon? | |
| Ms. Hoyle. Yes, sir, I am. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Yes. Well, it is great to have you on this | |
| Subcommittee, and welcome, and you have 5 minutes. | |
| Ms. Hoyle. Thank you. | |
| I am not actually on the Subcommittee, but I am coming here | |
| because this is really important to me. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Terrific. | |
| Ms. Hoyle. But I would like to yield my time to Ranking | |
| Member Neguse. | |
| And thank you. | |
| Mr. Neguse. A couple of things I would say. | |
| First, welcome to the Commissioner of Labor, for those of | |
| you who are not familiar with Ms. Hoyle, who was elected to | |
| Congress to replace the infamous and distinguished Chairman of | |
| the Transportation Committee, Mr. DeFazio, whom many of you | |
| worked with. | |
| She is a former statewide Labor Commissioner and I know is | |
| going to serve well in the U.S. Congress and bring her wealth | |
| of experience in her particular district to public lands and | |
| forest and watershed protection to this esteemed body. | |
| Just quickly, and then perhaps maybe I will yield a moment | |
| to Ms. Kamlager, we have a little time to talk about shared | |
| stewardship, and this builds off of a point that Mr. Curtis | |
| raised. | |
| I know he has stepped out of the room, but he and I have | |
| very similar districts. My district is roughly 60 percent | |
| public land. Many of you are probably familiar with Rocky | |
| Mountain National Park, White River National Forest, Arapaho | |
| Roosevelt National Forest, some of the most iconic places in | |
| the country, all of which I have the honor of representing. | |
| So, I understand well the challenges and the obstacles that | |
| Mr. Curtis mentioned, and I am grateful for our partnership on | |
| some of these issues around wildfire mitigation. | |
| And to that end, what I would like to talk about, and, Mr. | |
| Ferry, I am hoping you might be able to expound on this in | |
| greater detail, is wildfire management, mitigation, and | |
| resiliency. | |
| I was a bit struck, I must say, by your response to Mr. | |
| McClintock's question in which you identified the Federal | |
| Government. I think the word you used, and I will give you a | |
| chance to clarify this if you would like, was ``absentee | |
| landlord'' with respect to the Federal lands that are in your | |
| district or, excuse me, your state. | |
| And I guess I am happy to give you an opportunity to | |
| expound upon that if you would like or perhaps clarify that | |
| remark because as I look at the body of work that is being done | |
| under Governor Cox in partnership with the Federal Government, | |
| in partnership with the Forest Service Chief, implementing the | |
| infrastructure law, I know just 2 months ago the Forest Service | |
| announced a series of landscapes that will receive treatments. | |
| Two of them are in Utah, the Pine Valley Landscape, 43,000 | |
| acres over the next 7 years. The Uinta National Forest, 105,000 | |
| acres. I saw from some of your own written testimony hundreds | |
| of millions of dollars that are being deployed, Federal dollars | |
| in partnership with the state in Utah to get a handle on the | |
| mitigation that needs to be done in our forests. | |
| And I think that is really important work, and it is | |
| consistent with the shared stewardship model that the Utah | |
| Department of Natural Resources advertises on its own Website. | |
| So, I was very struck when you said ``absentee landlord.'' | |
| Maybe that has been your experience in the past, but my sense | |
| is the last couple of years we are seeing generational | |
| investments in terms of addressing some of the needs in the | |
| national forests that are in my district and it sounds like in | |
| Utah as well. | |
| But happy to give you a chance to respond. | |
| Mr. Ferry. No, thank you, and I appreciate that opportunity | |
| to clarify. | |
| So, specifically referring to some of the designations on | |
| national monuments as well as wilderness areas where we can't | |
| go in and do some of these treatments that are necessary. On | |
| the national forest side, we have a fantastic forestry program | |
| and a partnership with the Federal Government, with USDA. | |
| And that shared stewardship is part of that partnership | |
| where we are able to go in and work together. And that shared | |
| stewardship clears some of the boundaries out of the way, | |
| specifically when we talk about some of the permitting and some | |
| of the other things. It helps streamline that process. | |
| And that is part of this collaborative effort, I think, | |
| that we need as we look across the aisle, as we look across | |
| agencies from states to Federal, and local agencies as well, to | |
| really incorporate and come up with positive outcomes that we | |
| really need. | |
| The risk is so great. We look at the catastrophic wildfires | |
| throughout the West. Utah is no different. I mean, the WUI, the | |
| Wildland Urban Interface, it is so dramatic and we see people | |
| moving into these areas. The catastrophic risk is just through | |
| the roof. | |
| We have a great partnership, and thank you for letting me | |
| clarify that. | |
| Mr. Neguse. And that is very helpful, and that is exactly | |
| what I wanted. I just want to make sure we are giving the Biden | |
| administration credit where it is due. I mean, it is working in | |
| Utah. It is working in Colorado. | |
| The shared stewardship model with the Forest Service | |
| implementing the laws that we passed last year, the Bipartisan | |
| Infrastructure Law, it is working, and we just have to do more | |
| of it over the course of the next several years. | |
| I have 10 seconds that I could yield to my colleague from | |
| the great state of California if she has a word. | |
| Ms. Kamlager-Dove. No. I just wanted to add how heartened I | |
| was to hear some of my colleagues' statements around building | |
| more consensus and having more buy-in from everyone and making | |
| sure that people on the ground who understand best what is | |
| needed are involved. | |
| I think we should be thinking about that as we are hoping | |
| to stall any kind of wildfire sale on NEPA and its guardrails. | |
| Mr. Neguse. I yield. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. | |
| I would like to recognize the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. | |
| Stauber. | |
| Mr. Stauber. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. | |
| Mr. Neguse, congratulations as the Ranker. I really | |
| appreciate your comments. | |
| I know you are busy, but before you leave, I want to thank | |
| you for co-sponsoring the Lake Winnie land exchange. It made | |
| all of the sense in the world, and I appreciate your | |
| leadership. | |
| Mr. Neguse. Thank you. | |
| Mr. Stauber. Mr. Tiffany, congratulations on your | |
| chairmanship. Northwest Wisconsin and Northern Minnesota, our | |
| communities touch each other, our districts touch each other, | |
| and we have a huge Federal land footprint. | |
| And we struggle with wildfires, lack of access, and general | |
| management issues just like western states do as well, and I | |
| think for the first time that I can tell, there have never been | |
| two Midwesterners cheering energy and mineral resources and the | |
| Federal lands. So, I am really excited for your leadership. | |
| Commissioner Espy, thank you for joining us today. In my | |
| previous role, I served as a county commissioner in St. Louis | |
| County, Minnesota, where we also have a significant amount of | |
| Federal land. | |
| Your testimony discussed the benefit of Wyoming investing | |
| in the Good Neighbor Authority for wildfire management along | |
| with other examples of agreements between Federal agencies and | |
| states, tribes, and private landowners. | |
| What are the benefits to counties of these sorts of | |
| agreements? | |
| And what else can we do in Congress to let you better | |
| manage your lands in your county? | |
| Mr. Espy. On the Good Neighbor Authority, one of the | |
| biggest advantages to the county is the jobs that kept our mill | |
| running while we were waiting for the NEPA to be done on some | |
| of the forest ground to help provide those timber products back | |
| into our mill, and with that Good Neighbor Authority where we | |
| could pull private, state, and Federal lands all into a large | |
| enough sale that it was worth the time for the mill to come in | |
| and actually go and do that. | |
| Mr. Stauber. You just mentioned the NEPA process on Federal | |
| lands. How long is the process? What is going on? | |
| Mr. Espy. It depends. And simple liaise can be done very | |
| quickly normally within the deal. When we get into the EISes, | |
| and I am going to use Chokecherry Sierra Madre Wind Project, | |
| that was supposed to be fast-tracked through the process, and | |
| it is over 10 years in the NEPA process. | |
| Cumbersome, and like for the timber sales and some of this | |
| are forest rangers aren't there long enough to complete the | |
| NEPA process. So, when the line officers and those that weren't | |
| there when we started the project, they don't know what | |
| precipitated all this, so a lot gets lost. | |
| Mr. Stauber. I don't mean to cut you off here, but my time | |
| is limited. | |
| However, we are going to have a markup on permitting reform | |
| this Thursday, and that is exactly what we are going to | |
| discuss, the length of time. | |
| One mine in Northern Minnesota is on its 20th year of | |
| permitting in the biggest copper-nickel find in the world, | |
| called the Duluth Complex. | |
| Mr. Ferry, thank you for mentioning 30 x 30 in your | |
| testimony. We recently had a 225,000-acre mineral withdrawal | |
| that includes a ban on taconite, copper, nickel, cobalt, and | |
| more other essentials in the Superior National Forest, which is | |
| a working national forest in my district. | |
| The Administration press release proudly included the | |
| withdrawal as part of the 30 x 30 goal. So, in effect, the | |
| Administration was spiking the football and taking lands | |
| offline and into more restrictive management. | |
| I would like to give you the opportunity as a land manager | |
| yourself to discuss how further restriction of lands in the | |
| form of national monuments, mineral withdrawals, or anything | |
| else that is actually detrimental to the lands and our local | |
| communities. | |
| Mr. Espy. Thank you, Congressman. | |
| Ultimately, the ability to develop these lands that have | |
| precious minerals, other resources, is critical. We are not | |
| talking about developing everything everywhere, but there has | |
| to be a smart way of going about utilizing the natural | |
| resources that exist here in our country. | |
| And clarification within the 30 x 30, in setting some | |
| parameters so that we have an understanding because these take | |
| significant investments. It is no different than investing in a | |
| new mill or something else. There is a payback that has to | |
| occur, and without that security on the backend, the investment | |
| does not get made. | |
| Mr. Stauber. You have to develop a certainty of the | |
| permitting process. That is a big part of it, too, as well. | |
| I see my time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chair. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. | |
| I would like to recognize the gentlewoman from California, | |
| Ms. Porter, for 5 minutes. | |
| Ms. Porter. Thank you, Mr. Chair. | |
| Utah is home to exceptional national parks and wilderness | |
| and protected public lands. One of my best family memories was | |
| our recent trip to Dixie National Forest and to Zion National | |
| Park, and it is very clear having not been back in a couple | |
| decades and making a new trip how much those areas have | |
| supported the state's incredible outdoor recreation economy. | |
| And the beauty and the benefit of having those protected | |
| public lands is not lost on the people who live there and are | |
| seeing those economic benefits. | |
| Mr. Ferry, I studied your testimony, and you really | |
| hammered home the importance of collaborating with the Federal | |
| Government to promote conservation. On page 1, you state that | |
| when, ``the Federal Government manages significant swaths of | |
| land, proactive collaborative and smart conservation efforts | |
| are critical to maintaining healthy and thriving landscapes and | |
| watersheds.'' | |
| And you indicate the success of these collaborations again | |
| on pages 2 and 3 of your testimony. | |
| The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines ``conservation.'' It | |
| says, ``conservation--a careful preservation and protection of | |
| something, especially planned management of a natural resource | |
| to prevent exploitation, destruction, or neglect.'' | |
| What do you think of that definition? Does that do a good | |
| job of defining ``conservation''? | |
| Mr. Ferry. Sounds like a straight out of the book | |
| definition. | |
| Ms. Porter. It is straight out of the book. | |
| Republicans on this Committee define conservation | |
| differently. They say conservation is, ``a purpose that ensures | |
| our public lands provide secure domestic sources of energy, | |
| food, fiber, minerals, jobs, and recreation under appropriate | |
| conservation standards.'' | |
| Do you think that definition of ``conservation'' aligns | |
| with what the dictionary tells us? | |
| Mr. Ferry. I think that they are different. | |
| Ms. Porter. They are different. | |
| So, given that, I am curious how securing domestic sources | |
| of energy and minerals, which is the Republican Committee | |
| definition of ``conservation,'' how that fits with | |
| ``maintaining healthy and thriving landscapes and watersheds,'' | |
| that dictionary definition. | |
| How do you reconcile those things? | |
| Mr. Ferry. Well, I think ultimately, we have to look at | |
| that landscape scale and say in an appropriate manner can we | |
| extract minerals. Can we do proper grazing techniques? Can we | |
| manage those landscapes in a way that still protects those | |
| conservation values? | |
| And I think that that can be accomplished because what we | |
| are talking about, in the state of Utah, we are talking about | |
| 33 million acres are owned by the Federal Government, and to | |
| think that none of those acres are available for any sort of | |
| production, I think would be--it is not proper. | |
| Ms. Porter. So, you see an ability to, at the same time | |
| that one is drilling, be conserving? | |
| Mr. Ferry. On areas, on landscapes, yes. | |
| Ms. Porter. OK. You said in your testimony that you were, | |
| ``encouraged by reforms made in the Trump administration to | |
| weaken NEPA.'' | |
| Mr. Ferry, did you know that according to a recent poll | |
| from Colorado College, 64 percent of Utahans prefer that | |
| leaders place more emphasis on protecting water, air, wildlife, | |
| and recreation opportunities over maximizing the amount of land | |
| for drilling and mining? | |
| Seventy-five percent support a national goal of conserving | |
| 30 percent of America's lands and waters, and 78 percent | |
| support the creation of new national parks. | |
| Are you familiar with those statistics? | |
| Mr. Ferry. Yes, they sound accurate. | |
| Ms. Porter. They sound right to you. | |
| Mr. Ferry. Yes. | |
| Ms. Porter. So, those numbers which are the majority of | |
| people supporting more of a dictionary definition of | |
| conservation, which is parkland, recreation, over-drilling and | |
| mining, conserving in the Webster dictionary sense of it; those | |
| numbers probably have something to do with the 80,000 jobs | |
| created from tourism to Utah's national parks and the $7 | |
| billion in annual direct visitor spending. | |
| I am curious, Mr. Ferry. If Congress does what you are | |
| asking us to do in your testimony, which is to weaken NEPA and | |
| other Federal laws that protect and conserve, the dictionary | |
| ``conserve,'' Federal lands, what will happen to the 80,000 | |
| jobs that were created by outdoor recreational tourism? | |
| How is Utah going to make up the $7 billion in annual | |
| direct visitor spending? | |
| Mr. Ferry. So, I think ultimately what we are asking for is | |
| clarity within NEPA, not to weaken it, but to clarify it so | |
| that we have certainty, so that those jobs will exist. | |
| Ms. Porter. Does shortening the time for review clarify or | |
| weaken? | |
| Mr. Ferry. I think that that clarifies it. I think that it | |
| provides certainty to all citizens that rely on these---- | |
| Ms. Porter. Are you finished? I just want to let you | |
| finish. | |
| Mr. Ferry. Well, time is up. | |
| Ms. Porter. I yield back. | |
| Mr. Ferry. I can elaborate, but---- | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentlewoman yields. | |
| Now I would like to recognize the gentlewoman from Wyoming, | |
| Ms. Hageman. | |
| Ms. Hageman. Thank you very much, Chairman Tiffany, for | |
| welcoming me to your Subcommittee for this hearing and for | |
| including Wyoming in this important discussion. | |
| Commission Espy, thank you again for your testimony here | |
| and helping elevate the needs of Wyoming to the Federal level. | |
| One issue I have realized as I have been here in DC is that | |
| few in DC actually truly understand the scope of the Federal | |
| estate in the West and what the implication of that burden is. | |
| Behind me I have a map that just shows Carbon County, your | |
| county, Mr. Espy, and it shows the various landownerships, the | |
| brown being BLM, green being Forest Service, the interspersed | |
| white is private. You have local government, Department of | |
| Energy, et cetera, et cetera. | |
| Commissioner, you touched very briefly in your testimony, | |
| but can you please repeat how much of your county is controlled | |
| by the Federal Government? | |
| Mr. Espy. Forty-three percent, I think, is Federal | |
| Government. | |
| Ms. Hageman. Forty-eight percent of the surface estate in | |
| Wyoming is owned by the Federal Government, and 65 percent of | |
| our mineral estate is owned by the Federal Government. | |
| And you can see in this checkerboard pattern, how | |
| complicated it can be when you come from a state or a county | |
| where you have this variability of ownership, where you go from | |
| Federal to private, to Federal to private, to Federal to | |
| private, and the challenges that it can provide. | |
| Could you please describe some of those challenges when you | |
| have to deal with this kind of a checkerboard pattern within | |
| your county? | |
| Mr. Espy. Even if an action is occurring on private land, | |
| and even if those are fee minerals underneath that private | |
| land, if the access to that private land does cross Federal | |
| land, then that tips NEPA. | |
| Even to just drive across the public land, then the whole | |
| NEPA can come into and even to the point of on my private land, | |
| the whole Antiquities Act and where you go through, and it | |
| brings in tribal consultation on private lands. | |
| It opens a whole door up, even though that is fee, surface | |
| fee minerals, but because you have to cross Federal land, that | |
| does open up the whole door onto the private property. | |
| Ms. Hageman. And it might just be a road that you have to | |
| use across Federal lands. | |
| It has been interesting to me listening to the discussion | |
| today about the various programs that have been put in place to | |
| allegedly streamline and make it so that there can be these | |
| collaborative projects and these efforts to try to address some | |
| of the interface between the state, and the private lands, and | |
| the Federal lands. | |
| But there are 192 million acres in our National Forest | |
| Service, and a portion of those are wilderness, and in 2001, | |
| under President Clinton, one of the very last things that | |
| happened in his administration was the adoption of the Roadless | |
| Rule. | |
| And the Roadless Rule was a designation that denied access, | |
| management, and use to 58.5 million acres of National Forest | |
| Service lands in primarily the western United States. | |
| So, really what it was was wilderness by fiat, by executive | |
| fiat. It was not done through Congress. Congress didn't | |
| designate the roadless areas. It was done by President Clinton | |
| without the kind of oversight that you would typically see in a | |
| NEPA analysis. | |
| In fact, the Notice of Intent was issued in October 2019, | |
| and the final rule and Record of Decision was issued in January | |
| 2021. In other words, they did not follow NEPA. | |
| They did violate the Wilderness Act because, as you have | |
| indicated, it is only through Congress that we can designate | |
| wilderness, but the reality is that these 58.5 million acres of | |
| roadless acres are, in fact, managed as wilderness, meaning | |
| they aren't part of any of these programs. | |
| So, what have we seen over the last 20 years? Catastrophic | |
| forest fires, the incredible outbreak of the pine beetle | |
| throughout the interior West. | |
| In fact, we know from the Forest Service's own documents | |
| that in 1997, there was a blowdown in Northern Colorado in the | |
| Routt National Forest that knocked down 13,000 acres of trees | |
| in one night. Because it was a wilderness area and a roadless | |
| area, they never were able to go in and treat that area. | |
| Guess what that is. That is ground zero for the pine beetle | |
| outbreak. | |
| So, we can talk about these various programs that might | |
| allow for treating in particular limited areas, but the reality | |
| is that it is the mismanagement of the National Forest Service | |
| lands in the western United States that has been absolutely | |
| destructive not only to our Federal lands, but to our private | |
| lands, and our state lands as well. | |
| And I yield back. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady yields. | |
| Now I would like to recognize the gentlewoman from | |
| Virginia. | |
| Mrs. Kiggans. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| And thank you, witnesses, for being here today. | |
| I represent Virginia's 2nd Congressional District in the | |
| Hampton Roads area. Most federally owned land may be out West, | |
| but Virginia is well known for its 2 million acres of beautiful | |
| national parks and wildlife management areas. | |
| Roughly 10 percent of our state is considered Federal land, | |
| most of which is managed by the Forest Service. One-third of | |
| our nation's forests are located in the southeastern United | |
| States. Some are federally managed, but many are privately | |
| owned. | |
| In my district, local private companies are making use of | |
| harvested wood products from working forests to produce | |
| sustainable alternatives to fossil fuels. These forests | |
| contribute greatly to removing carbon from the environment, and | |
| for every ton of wood products harvested, almost double that is | |
| grown in the same period. | |
| That means our carbon sequestration ability is growing year | |
| over year, all thanks to sound forest management and biomass | |
| production. | |
| While working forests in the southeast United States are | |
| largely privately owned, Federal lands across the country have | |
| similar potential to be productive and working forests, | |
| removing carbon from the atmosphere and producing sustainable | |
| and renewable energy in the form of biochar wood pellets. | |
| To the panel, what progress, if any, are we seeing in | |
| federally owned forests being used for these purposes? | |
| And can public-private partnerships be used to further | |
| enhance the productivity of Federal forests? | |
| Mr. Espy. Actually in Carbon County, we have what is called | |
| the Lava Project on the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forest. | |
| There is a pellet mill in Jackson County, Colorado that has | |
| been able to make use of the timber that can't be used for saw | |
| logs, that can't go into the stud mill in Saratoga. So, the by- | |
| product of the stud mill in Saratoga has been pellets. | |
| Mr. Rigdon. Thank you. | |
| I think it is important to recognize that across the | |
| country, tribes are out doing the work, our places in these | |
| communities, and we are actually on our own lands harvesting | |
| and doing things, but we are reaching out to the Tribal Force | |
| Protection Act and looking at shared stewardship in manners | |
| that are consistent with the goals of sound stewardship, | |
| retaining and making sure that the forest is able to be | |
| productive in the manner that you are talking about, but also | |
| having the infrastructure necessary to be able to do those | |
| things with milling and other energy opportunities that I think | |
| are necessary. | |
| So, if it is in the Northwest with the Yakama, Carville, | |
| Warm Springs, to the Southwest with the Apache Mescalero and | |
| those tribes to the Midwest, with many of the tribes throughout | |
| there. We are out there actively working with Federal agencies | |
| and working to make sure the shared stewardship is a part of | |
| our place and that the tribes play a role into the history of | |
| what we believe is the important legacy that we leave. | |
| Mr. Leshy. A couple of different points. One is on the | |
| collaborative working on the forest. I can tell you from | |
| personal knowledge that in Arizona, it is the largest Ponderosa | |
| pine forest in the country. Most of it is national forest land. | |
| There has been an effort ongoing for years that has really | |
| taken off in the last couple of years to do forest-wide | |
| treatments, helped a lot by money from Congress, so that this | |
| project that has been talked about for 15 years, it is widely | |
| collaborative, local governments, timber industry, | |
| environmental groups. They are all behind this. It is called | |
| the Forthright, and well worth watching because it is kind of | |
| on the leading edge of what is happening around the country. | |
| The other point is unconnected but I wanted to mention, | |
| which is paying more attention to tribal traditional knowledge | |
| in the management of forests. It is something that has really | |
| taken off in the last few years around the Federal system in | |
| particular. | |
| Using fire as a management tool, in particular, is | |
| something that Indigenous people did for a long time, and | |
| Federal land managers and state land managers are kind of | |
| waking up to that fact. | |
| In one of the chapters toward the end of my book, I talk a | |
| lot about the emergence in the modern era of tribal, Native | |
| Nation influence over how our Federal lands are managed, and | |
| the traditional knowledge is one aspect of that. | |
| That really is gaining momentum, and it is really a pretty | |
| powerful, and progressive, important force. So, I just wanted | |
| to make that point. | |
| Mrs. Kiggans. Thank you. | |
| I yield back the rest of my time. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. OK. The gentlelady yields from Virginia. Thank | |
| you very much. | |
| Now I am going to yield myself 5 minutes of time here, and | |
| I will start with Mr. Rigdon. | |
| In your testimony, you stated that catastrophic wildfire is | |
| perhaps the greatest waste of forest resources. You can see | |
| this chart behind me here. As we have seen this decrease in | |
| harvest on our national forests since the 1980s, and then you | |
| see the spike lines where we see these catastrophic wildfires | |
| that are out there. | |
| Mr. Rigdon, if the Federal Government started harvesting | |
| timber like your tribe, how do you think the chart behind me | |
| would change in terms of acres lost annually to catastrophic | |
| wildfires? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| I think we would still have fires, but I think the | |
| catastrophic fires would be minimized, and fires actually could | |
| be used as a tool with respect to the land. | |
| But because they are overstocked so much right now, because | |
| of insect disease, and because of those forest health issues, | |
| you are seeing the type of fires that become these megafires | |
| that are destroying everything and losing the values of | |
| protecting water, protecting the resources that we all want | |
| protected. | |
| So, I could see that number coming down, but actually I | |
| think we need more prescribed burn or using fire in a better | |
| manner. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. But it will take some management to make that | |
| happen, right? To reduce this threat of these mega wildfires. | |
| Mr. Rigdon. Yes, Mr. Chairman. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. How many mills have been lost in the West here | |
| since this started in the late 1980s to now? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. On our reservation in the Yakama, we used to | |
| have about 300 mills locally that would go into the Northwest. | |
| Now, our mill is the only one in our area that is left with | |
| respect to that. | |
| You are watching the interior West lose the ability and the | |
| infrastructure necessary to be able to do this type of forest | |
| health and this active management approach. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Is that something we should really be | |
| concerned about, is losing those privately owned mills that | |
| used to consume that timber that is now being burned? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. I think it goes both to the milling | |
| infrastructure, but also you look at there were some studies | |
| done with respect to the age of the log truck drivers, and they | |
| are in their 60s, and as you start doing that, the ability for | |
| someone, a young person, to go get a log truck and start an | |
| enterprise, that is a challenge that we are going to face. | |
| The next generation of public people working in the | |
| infrastructure necessary to do that, we are seeing that on the | |
| reservation. We are seeing that throughout the West. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. You mentioned something, Mr. Rigdon, in regard | |
| to you have a designation known as ``primitive,'' which I took | |
| as to be somewhat similar to the wilderness designation at the | |
| Federal level. Is that right? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. Yes. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. But in wilderness, there is basically nothing | |
| happens there under the Federal designation. Do you do some | |
| management on your primitive lands? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. In our primitive, we have an opportunity to | |
| deal with things. We do try to stay out of there, and we do | |
| value the values that it has with respect to doing that, but we | |
| will respond to insect disease and mainly fire to protect the | |
| spread of gas or fire by wind. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. So, if there was the potential for | |
| catastrophic wildfire, let's say there was a severe disease | |
| outbreak, something like that. Ms. Hageman mentioned 13,000 | |
| acres going down. You would go in and deal with that. Is that | |
| correct? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. That is correct. | |
| And I also want to make sure the Committee understands. Our | |
| land is held in trust by the Federal Government. So, we follow | |
| all NEPA within the reservation and we follow all other Federal | |
| laws that meet those objectives. | |
| So, people need to understand that. Our land is considered | |
| Federal and is in an ownership on behalf of our community, so | |
| we do follow those. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Would you have any objections to the Good | |
| Neighbor Authority being expanded in the upcoming farm bill? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. No. I think it is an important tool for the | |
| ability for the state, tribes, and for the communities to work | |
| at doing the necessary work out there to reduce the risk that | |
| you see with fire and the buildup of accumulated fields. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. Thank you. | |
| Mr. Espy, you mentioned--I don't have a question here--but | |
| we had this discussion just now in regard to tourism versus | |
| industry, and that is how it is always portrayed, as tourism | |
| versus industry. You can have one or you can have the other. | |
| Let me tell you. I sit here as an owner of a business known | |
| as Wilderness Cruises that my wife and I owned for 20 years, | |
| and I can tell you when we saw a downturn in the economy, we | |
| saw a downturn in our business, which was a tourism-oriented | |
| business. | |
| They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they require each | |
| other. It is so important that we have a growing economy, | |
| including growing industry and a robust industry, in order for | |
| the tourism recreational businesses to be able to survive. It | |
| is a very important part of that. | |
| And the other thing is that we saw the slide earlier in | |
| testimony about the amount of land continuing to go up, | |
| Republican and Democrat Presidents, and I have no reason to | |
| doubt that that chart is inaccurate. | |
| But I would give you an analogy to another thing that is | |
| going up like this here in Washington, DC, and it is called the | |
| debt, where it is approaching $32 trillion. So, why would we | |
| continue on this merry course of continuing to put more land | |
| into the Federal Treasury? | |
| Just like the debt, maybe we need to rethink how much more | |
| land that we are going to purchase here in Washington, DC, | |
| especially when it is not being managed properly. | |
| That concludes my questioning. | |
| I would like to recognize the gentleman from Idaho for 5 | |
| minutes. | |
| Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| And to our panelists, thank you for your testimony and your | |
| willingness to be here today. | |
| And please understand that some of us who bounce in and out | |
| are not being rude. There is this thing called dueling | |
| Committees sometimes, but I have been privy to your written | |
| testimony on the front end of it. | |
| A question for Mr. Rigdon. | |
| Mr. Rigdon, I, too, am very interested in the Good Neighbor | |
| Authority and for some period of time attempting to expand that | |
| to tribes, to counties, and the participation there. | |
| But you have a unique perspective on that with your | |
| background, and I heard just the exchange here with the | |
| Chairman on this topic, but I would like to hear your thoughts | |
| a little bit further. | |
| If that is expanded, the Good Neighbor Authority, if that | |
| is expanded to where tribes have the access to that tool, to | |
| what extent do you think that would be embraced? | |
| I know probably some would embrace it, some would not. But | |
| I would like to get your thoughts into the why and the | |
| wherefores there. | |
| Mr. Rigdon. Thank you. | |
| I want to make sure tribes are currently, Yakama Nation is | |
| currently doing a Tribal Force Protection Act 638 contract that | |
| was passed in the 2018 farm bill, and the thing is we have | |
| spent our effort working with the Good Neighbor Authority. | |
| We signed on with Washington State DNR, so we are actively | |
| out there. And do know that---- | |
| Mr. Fulcher. But this would include a fiscal participation, | |
| which does not exist today. | |
| Mr. Rigdon. And that is the part, is we are using the tools | |
| that we currently have. I think it would be really important | |
| for tribes to be included in that language, and also the | |
| ability, going into a stewardship contract within there, to be | |
| able to retain the receipts so that we could put the resources | |
| locally back into there, and that is an important part of what | |
| we are---- | |
| Mr. Fulcher. So, you think generally it would be embraced? | |
| Mr. Rigdon. Embraced. | |
| Mr. Fulcher. All right. Thank you for that. | |
| Shifting gears a little bit, Mr. Ferry, I haven't had a | |
| chance to interact with you yet, but I did read your testimony, | |
| and NEPA, not surprisingly, comes up. | |
| I am in your neighboring state, so we share a lot of common | |
| characteristics, I think, and I agree with what my | |
| understanding is of your position on the need for reform there. | |
| This dates back to 1970-something, and here we are in 2023 | |
| with a whole different landscape and some need for reform. | |
| But I would like to get your perspective. There is the do | |
| nothing route on reforming NEPA, and we get that a lot from | |
| some of our opposition here. What happens if we do nothing on | |
| NEPA? | |
| Mr. Ferry. I think we see a continued pattern. I think that | |
| is a great example, that chart there. We see a continued | |
| pattern of increased catastrophic wildfires. We see a continued | |
| pattern of not being able to manage in an appropriate way these | |
| landscapes, these Federal landscapes. | |
| We see continued increased expenses and costs, and really | |
| what we are looking for is that reform to help us manage in an | |
| appropriate way these large Federal holdings and the | |
| interaction that exists, because they do have an interaction. I | |
| mean, the chart that was demonstrated earlier. You have this | |
| checkerboard pattern of Federal to private lands. It has an | |
| impact across the board. It has an impact on private lands as | |
| well. | |
| So, it is critical that we at least address these concerns | |
| and make it so that we have more surety and consistency in our | |
| process to be able to manage these landscapes. | |
| Mr. Fulcher. We have just a little over a minute left. I | |
| would like to pulse you on one other thing related. Litigation, | |
| when you do get a project that is approved and you move forward | |
| with it, how much of a problem do you have with litigation? | |
| Mr. Ferry. It is a huge problem. That is what the | |
| uncertainty is. That consistent or constant litigation that | |
| occurs that draws these projects out and makes them way more | |
| expensive than they need to be, it basically hamstrings us in | |
| being able to manage these lands. | |
| Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Ferry. | |
| Mr. Chairman, I just want to make a closing comment here | |
| with my last few seconds. | |
| The Full Committee Chair, Chair Westerman, has had for some | |
| period of time that resilient forest legislation that he has on | |
| the table, and one of the provisions in that and one of the | |
| reasons I am a co-sponsor for that is a trial run at using | |
| arbitration as opposed to litigation in those cases, which I | |
| believe you would potentially agree that might be a very | |
| positive change. | |
| So, we are certainly going to support that. | |
| Mr. Ferry and Mr. Rigdon and the rest of the panelists, | |
| thank you again for your time. | |
| I yield back. Thank you. | |
| Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. | |
| Thank you for your questions. | |
| I would like to thank all of the witnesses for your | |
| testimony. It is greatly appreciated that you would take the | |
| time to come here to Washington, DC, and join us from the far | |
| western reaches of our country. | |
| And I want to thank the Members for their questions. | |
| Members of the Subcommittee may have some additional | |
| questions for the witnesses, and we will ask you to respond to | |
| those in writing if anyone provides those to you. | |
| Under Committee Rule 3, members of the Subcommittee must | |
| submit questions to the Committee Clerk by 5 p.m., on Monday, | |
| March 13, 2023. The hearing record will be held open for 10 | |
| business days for these responses. | |
| If there is no further business, without objection, the | |
| Subcommittee stands adjourned. | |
| [Whereupon, at 11:56 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] | |
| [all] | |
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