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| <title> - NO TAXPAYER FUNDING FOR ABORTION ACT</title> | |
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| [House Hearing, 112 Congress] | |
| [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] | |
| NO TAXPAYER FUNDING FOR ABORTION ACT | |
| ======================================================================= | |
| HEARING | |
| BEFORE THE | |
| SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION | |
| OF THE | |
| COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY | |
| HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES | |
| ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS | |
| FIRST SESSION | |
| ON | |
| H.R. 3 | |
| __________ | |
| FEBRUARY 8, 2011 | |
| __________ | |
| Serial No. 112-9 | |
| __________ | |
| Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary | |
| Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov | |
| U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE | |
| 64-404 WASHINGTON : 2011 | |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | |
| For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, | |
| http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center, U.S. Government Printing Office. Phone 202�09512�091800, or 866�09512�091800 (toll-free). E-mail, <a href="/cdn-cgi/l/email-protection" class="__cf_email__" data-cfemail="fb9c8b94bb988e888f939e978bd5989496">[email protected]</a>. | |
| COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY | |
| LAMAR SMITH, Texas, Chairman | |
| F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan | |
| Wisconsin HOWARD L. BERMAN, California | |
| HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina JERROLD NADLER, New York | |
| ELTON GALLEGLY, California ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, | |
| BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia Virginia | |
| DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina | |
| STEVE CHABOT, Ohio ZOE LOFGREN, California | |
| DARRELL E. ISSA, California SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas | |
| MIKE PENCE, Indiana MAXINE WATERS, California | |
| J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia STEVE COHEN, Tennessee | |
| STEVE KING, Iowa HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., | |
| TRENT FRANKS, Arizona Georgia | |
| LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas PEDRO PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico | |
| JIM JORDAN, Ohio MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois | |
| TED POE, Texas JUDY CHU, California | |
| JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah TED DEUTCH, Florida | |
| TOM REED, New York LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California | |
| TIM GRIFFIN, Arkansas DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida | |
| TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania | |
| TREY GOWDY, South Carolina | |
| DENNIS ROSS, Florida | |
| SANDY ADAMS, Florida | |
| BEN QUAYLE, Arizona | |
| Sean McLaughlin, Majority Chief of Staff and General Counsel | |
| Perry Apelbaum, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel | |
| ------ | |
| Subcommittee on the Constitution | |
| TRENT FRANKS, Arizona, Chairman | |
| MIKE PENCE, Indiana, Vice-Chairman | |
| STEVE CHABOT, Ohio JERROLD NADLER, New York | |
| J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois | |
| STEVE KING, Iowa JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan | |
| JIM JORDAN, Ohio ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, | |
| Virginia | |
| Paul B. Taylor, Chief Counsel | |
| David Lachmann, Minority Staff Director | |
| C O N T E N T S | |
| ---------- | |
| FEBRUARY 8, 2011 | |
| Page | |
| THE BILL | |
| H.R. 3, the ``No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act''............. 4 | |
| OPENING STATEMENTS | |
| The Honorable Trent Franks, a Representative in Congress from the | |
| State of Arizona, and Chairman, Subcommittee on the | |
| Constitution................................................... 1 | |
| The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, a Representative in Congress from | |
| the State of New York, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on the | |
| Constitution................................................... 13 | |
| WITNESSES | |
| Richard M. Doerflinger, Associate Director of the Secretariat of | |
| Pro-Life Activities, United States Conference of Catholic | |
| Bishops (USCCB) | |
| Oral Testimony................................................. 21 | |
| Prepared Statement............................................. 24 | |
| Cathy Cleaver Ruse, Senior Fellow for Legal Studies, Family | |
| Research Council | |
| Oral Testimony................................................. 34 | |
| Prepared Statement............................................. 36 | |
| Sara Rosenbaum, Harold and Jane Hirsh Professor, Health Law and | |
| Policy, and Chair, Department of Health Policy, The George | |
| Washington University School of Public Health and Health | |
| Services | |
| Oral Testimony................................................. 45 | |
| Prepared Statement............................................. 47 | |
| LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING | |
| Prepared Statement of the Honorable Jerrold Nadler, a | |
| Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and | |
| Ranking Member, Subcommittee on the Constitution............... 16 | |
| Prepared Statement of the Honorable Eleanor Holmes Norton, a | |
| Representative in Congress from the District of Columbia....... 18 | |
| Material submitted by the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a | |
| Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, Ranking | |
| Member, Committee on the Judiciary, and Member, Subcommittee on | |
| the Constitution............................................... 61 | |
| APPENDIX | |
| Material Submitted for the Hearing Record | |
| Prepared Statement of the Honorable Mike Quigley, a | |
| Representative in Congress from the State of Illinois, and | |
| Member, Subcommittee on the Constitution....................... 71 | |
| Addendum to the Prepared Statement of Cathy Cleaver Ruse, Senior | |
| Fellow for Legal Studies, Family Research Council.............. 74 | |
| Letter from Cardinal Danile N. DiNardo, Archbishop of Galveston/ | |
| Houston, Chairman, Committee on Pro-Life Activities, United | |
| States Conferece of Catholic Bishop............................ 75 | |
| Letter from Sr. Carol Keehan, DC, President and CEO, Catholic | |
| Health Association of the United States........................ 77 | |
| Prepared Statement of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).. 79 | |
| Prepared Statement of the Center for Reproductive Rights......... 88 | |
| Material submitted by Cory L. Richards, Executive Vice President, | |
| and Vice President for Public Policy, the Guttmacher Institute. 101 | |
| Prepared Statement of Douglas Laube, MD, MEd, Board Chair, | |
| Physicians for Reroductive Choice and Health................... 112 | |
| Letter from Cassing Hammond, MD, Director, Section of Family | |
| Planning & Contraception, Associate Professor of Obstetrics and | |
| Gyncology, Northwestern Feinberg School of Medicine, and Chair, | |
| National Abortion Federation Board of Director................. 116 | |
| Prepared Statement of the National Abortion Federation........... 119 | |
| Prepared Statement of Silvia Henriquez, Executive Director, the | |
| National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health.............. 125 | |
| Prepared Statement of Debra Ness, President, and Judith Lichtman, | |
| Senior Advisor, the National Partnership for Women & Families.. 128 | |
| Prepared Statement of Rabbi David Saperstein, Director and | |
| Counsel, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism............. 132 | |
| Prepared Statement of Nancy Keenan, President, NARAL Pro-Choice | |
| American Foundation............................................ 134 | |
| Prepared Statement of Nancy Ratzan, President, National Council | |
| of Jewish Woman................................................ 143 | |
| Material submitted by the Center for Reproductive Rights......... 146 | |
| Material submitted by DC Vote.................................... 151 | |
| Press Release from the National Abortion Federation (NAF)........ 152 | |
| NO TAXPAYER FUNDING FOR ABORTION ACT | |
| ---------- | |
| TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 2011 | |
| House of Representatives, | |
| Subcommittee on the Constitution, | |
| Committee on the Judiciary, | |
| Washington, DC. | |
| The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 4:05 p.m., in | |
| room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Trent | |
| Franks (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. | |
| Present: Representatives Franks, Pence, Chabot, King, | |
| Jordan, Nadler, Quigley, Conyers, and Scott. | |
| Also Present: Representatives Goodlatte and Jackson Lee. | |
| Staff Present: (Majority) Paul Taylor, Subcommittee Chief | |
| Counsel; Sarah Vance, Clerk; (Minority) Heather Sawyer, | |
| Counsel; and Veronica Eligan, Professional Staff Member. | |
| Mr. Franks. The Subcommittee will come to order. | |
| Good afternoon to all of you. Pursuant to notice, the | |
| Subcommittee on the Constitution meets today to consider H.R. | |
| 3, the ``No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act.'' This is the | |
| very first Constitution Subcommittee hearing in this, the new | |
| 112th Congress, and it is such a privilege to be the new | |
| Chairman of the Subcommittee and to offer a heartfelt welcome | |
| to all of the Members, the witnesses, and the observers. | |
| Let me take a little side note here. Rule XI of the House | |
| rules provides that the Chairman of the Committee may punish | |
| breaches of order and decorum by censure and exclusion from the | |
| hearing. Presently we have people standing and it makes the | |
| order not in order in the hearing room. So members of the | |
| audience must behave in an orderly fashion. I say that | |
| respectfully, but otherwise they will be removed from the | |
| hearing room. So I hope you all will sit down. | |
| Daniel Webster once said, Hold on, my friends, to the | |
| Constitution and to the Republic for which in stands, for | |
| miracles do not cluster and what has happened once in 6,000 | |
| years may never happen again. So hold on to the Constitution | |
| for if the American Constitution should fall, there will be | |
| anarchy throughout the world. | |
| Our Founding Fathers wrote the words of our Constitution | |
| down for us because they did not want us to forget their true | |
| meaning, or to otherwise fall prey to those who would | |
| deliberately undermine or destroy it. This has always been the | |
| preeminent reason why we write down documents or agreements or | |
| declarations or constitutions in the first place: To preserve | |
| their original meaning and intent. | |
| Protecting the lives of innocent Americans and their | |
| constitutional rights is why those of us in this room are all | |
| here, and indeed this is why Congress itself exists. The | |
| phrases in the Fifth and 14th Amendments capsulate our entire | |
| Constitution when they proclaim that no person shall be | |
| deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of | |
| law. | |
| Those words are a crystal clear reflection of the | |
| Proclamation and the Declaration of Independence that declares | |
| that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator | |
| with certain unalienable rights, those being life, liberty, and | |
| the pursuit of happiness. Those words are the essence of the | |
| America, and our commitment to them for more than two centuries | |
| has set America apart as the flagship of human freedom in the | |
| entire world. And yet unspeakable suffering and tragedy have | |
| occurred whenever we have strayed from those words. | |
| Our own United States Supreme Court ruled that millions of | |
| men, women, and children were not persons under the | |
| Constitution because their skin was black. It took a horrible | |
| Civil War and the deaths of over 600,000 Americans to reverse | |
| that unspeakable tragedy. And we saw the same arrogance in 1973 | |
| when the Supreme Court said the unborn child was not a person | |
| under the Constitution. And we have since witnessed the silent | |
| deaths of now over 50 million innocent little baby boys and | |
| baby girls who died without the protection the Constitution | |
| gave them and without the protection this Congress should have | |
| given them. | |
| H.R. 3 is a bipartisan bill that takes a step to turn | |
| America away from that tragedy. The bill forms part of the new | |
| majority's pledge to America, codifying the Hyde amendment by | |
| permanently prohibiting taxpayer funding of abortion across all | |
| Federal programs. In addition, the bill protects health care | |
| workers' rights of conscience so that they cannot be coerced to | |
| participate in abortion procedures as a condition their | |
| employment. | |
| The Capitol Police are in the process of restoring order | |
| here and we are going to go ahead and continue and would ask | |
| them to continue. | |
| The Speaker of the House, John Boehner, directed that this | |
| bill receive the designation H.R. 3 as ``one of our highest | |
| legislative priorities.'' H.R. 3 is intended to continue the | |
| same policy as the Hyde amendment. The Hyde amendment prohibits | |
| taxpayer funding of abortion except in cases of rape, incest, | |
| or to save the life of the mother. | |
| Contrary to discussion in the press, this bill with not be | |
| a departure from the decades of implementation of the Hyde | |
| amendment policy. Sponsors of the bill are reviewing clarifying | |
| language for amending H.R. 3 to assure lawmakers that funding | |
| policy as it relates to cases of rape will not be altered by | |
| this bill. | |
| The second part of this bill provides necessary protection | |
| for health care workers who will not perform or refer for | |
| abortions as a matter of conscience. Those who believe that a | |
| pregnancy is a circumstance which presents with two patients, | |
| the mother and the unborn child, cannot in good conscience do | |
| harm to that unborn child and therefore should not be coerced | |
| into performing abortions as would be required under the | |
| current health care system. | |
| Now, it is said that government is what it spends. Planned | |
| Parenthood alone aborts over a quarter of a million unborn | |
| babies every year, all the while it receives hundreds of | |
| millions of dollars in Federal, State or local taxpayer funds. | |
| This legislation is really about whether the role of America's | |
| government is to continue to fund a practice that takes the | |
| lives of over 1 million little Americans every year. | |
| Even some of those who do not consider themselves pro-life | |
| strongly object to their taxpayers going to pay for abortion-- | |
| their dollars. | |
| Now I believe the intensity of this debate has something to | |
| do with our collective conscience. Perhaps it is because | |
| ultrasound technology has begun to demonstrate to all | |
| reasonable observers both the humanity of the victim and the | |
| inhumanity of what is done to them. | |
| We are beginning to realize as Americans that somehow we | |
| are bigger than abortion on demand and that 50 million dead | |
| children is enough. We are beginning to ask the real question, | |
| does abortion take the life of a child? If it does not, then | |
| all of this here today is a non-issue. But if it does, then | |
| those of us sitting here in the chambers of freedom are in the | |
| midst of the greatest human genocide in the history of | |
| humanity. | |
| Thomas Jefferson said that the care of human life and its | |
| happiness and not its destruction is the chief and only object | |
| of good government. And ladies and gentlemen, using taxpayer | |
| dollars to fund the killing of innocent, unborn children does | |
| not liberate their mothers. It is not the cause for which those | |
| lying out under the white stones in Arlington National Cemetery | |
| died, and it is not good government. | |
| Abraham Lincoln called upon all of us to remember America's | |
| Founding Fathers and, ``Their enlightened belief that nothing | |
| stamped with the divine image and likeness was sent into the | |
| world to be trodden on or degraded and imbruted by its fellows. | |
| He reminded those he called posterity that when in the distant | |
| future some man, some factions, some interests should set up a | |
| doctrine that some were not entitled to life, liberty, and the | |
| pursuit of happiness that ``their posterity"--that's us, ladies | |
| and gentlemen--"their posterity might look up again to the | |
| Declaration of Independence and take courage to renew the | |
| battle which their fathers began.'' | |
| May that be the commitment of all of us today. I look so | |
| forward to hearing from the witnesses, and I now recognize the | |
| Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, Mr. Nadler, for his opening | |
| statement. | |
| [The bill, H.R. 3, follows:] | |
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| __________ | |
| Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I first want to note | |
| that this is our first Subcommittee hearing of the 112th | |
| Congress and your first as Chairman. I want to congratulate | |
| you. Although our jurisdiction includes some of the most | |
| difficult issues before the Congress, some of which have | |
| historically been very contentious, I look forward to working | |
| with you in the spirit of comity to give what we both know are | |
| strong and sincerely held views the fair hearing that they | |
| deserve. | |
| Having chaired this Subcommittee for two Congresses and | |
| having served as the Ranking Member for several Congresses | |
| before that, I appreciate what a challenge this Subcommittee | |
| can be and I look forward to working with you. | |
| Today's hearing concerns what may be the most difficult and | |
| divisive issue we will have the opportunity to consider: A | |
| woman's right to make decisions about her own body. Whether to | |
| become pregnant, whether to continue a pregnancy, or whether to | |
| terminate it has long been a right protected by the | |
| Constitution. Whether or not people think that is a good idea | |
| or a fair reading of the Constitution or morally correct, it | |
| remains the law of the land. | |
| Congress has for more than three decades used economic | |
| coercion to try to prevent women from exercising their | |
| constitutionally protected choice by prohibiting use of Federal | |
| funds for abortions, the only legal health care procedure | |
| subject to such a ban. Until now that coercion was directed | |
| against the poor and against women dependent upon the | |
| government for health care, military personnel and their | |
| dependents, prison inmates, and Federal employees. We have thus | |
| developed a two-tiered system in which people with means have | |
| the right to choose but members of vulnerable populations do | |
| not. | |
| Now comes the No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act, H.R. 3, | |
| which is really misnamed, because it has very little to do with | |
| taxpayer funding for abortions, it goes way beyond that | |
| question and places government in the middle of private choices | |
| by families and businesses about how they wish to spend their | |
| own health care dollars. This legislation represents an | |
| entirely new front in the war against women and their families. | |
| After 2 years of hearing my Republican colleagues complain | |
| that government should not meddle in the private insurance | |
| market or in private health care choices, I was stunned to see | |
| legislation so obviously designed to do exactly that. | |
| It seems that many Republicans believe in freedom, provided | |
| no one uses that freedom in a way they find objectionable. That | |
| is a strange understanding of freedom. Even more stunning, this | |
| bill contains a huge tax increase on families, businesses, and | |
| the self-employed if they spend their own money--let me repeat | |
| that, their own money on insurance that covers abortions or | |
| abortion services. | |
| The power to tax is the power to destroy and here the | |
| taxing power is being used quite deliberately to destroy the | |
| right of every American to make private health care decisions | |
| free from government interference. A Republican tax increase, | |
| Republican support for government intrusion into private health | |
| care choices--I am supposed to say you heard it here first, but | |
| if you read the bill you saw it there first. | |
| I am equally surprised to find out that my Republican | |
| colleagues think that a tax exemption or credit is a form of | |
| government funding. What happened to all the about the rhetoric | |
| about its being our money, or does that apply only in certain | |
| circumstances? Will we now have to call every tax exemption or | |
| credit a form of government funding for the recipient? I am | |
| sure there will be many businesses, charities, and religious | |
| denominations that will be alarmed to find out that they are | |
| receiving government subsidies. | |
| I also join many other Americans in being absolutely | |
| horrified--well, before I get to that, let me say that among | |
| others who should be horrified are all the churches, and | |
| synagogues and mosques that will now presumably have to give up | |
| their tax exemptions, because if tax exemptions are government | |
| subsidies then that is a direct establishment of religion and | |
| the logic is inexorable. Either a tax exemption is government | |
| funding, in which case we cannot give tax exemptions to | |
| churches and synagogues and mosques, or it is not, in which | |
| case this bill has no claim on anything. | |
| I also join many other Americans being absolutely horrified | |
| that the sponsors of this bill seem not to know what rape and | |
| incest are. Rape, according to this legislation, is only | |
| ``forcible'' rape. Date rape drugs, sex with minors, with the | |
| mentally impaired are, at least according to the sponsors of | |
| this bill, not really rape anymore. Incest also is no longer | |
| incest. Instead it is now only incest with a minor that we have | |
| to be concerned about, which means I guess that incest with a | |
| high school senior doesn't count. | |
| Have the extremes really taken such a hold on this debate | |
| that we cannot even agree to help children and teenagers who | |
| are the victims of predators? Is there no compassion left in | |
| this Capitol? | |
| I have heard that the rape and incest provisions are going | |
| to be removed from this bill or modified because of the outcry | |
| they have raised. But first, we have not seen such an amendment | |
| yet. And second, what does this provision, even if amended, | |
| what does the provision in the first place say about the | |
| mindset and intent of the sponsors of the legislation? | |
| There is also a provision in this bill that in the name of | |
| conscience of health care providers would allow any health care | |
| provider or institution to refuse to provide an abortion to a | |
| woman who would die if she doesn't get the abortion. They would | |
| be allowed to refuse to provide an abortion in the emergency | |
| room, even if the medical judgment is that without that | |
| abortion she would die. They would let that woman die right | |
| there in the emergency room and the government would be | |
| powerless to do anything to penalize that or to prevent it. In | |
| fact, if the government, under the provisions of this bill, | |
| insisted that the hospital not let the woman die, section 311 | |
| of the bill would allow the hospital to sue the government and | |
| in the case of a State or locality strip that community of all | |
| Federal funding until the jurisdiction relented and allowed | |
| women to die if they needed an abortion to prevent the death. | |
| That is the new definition it seems of pro-life. | |
| So, Mr. Chairman, let's start off on the right foot. The No | |
| Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act is not really about taxpayer | |
| funding; it is about government interfering with private | |
| healthcare decisions. It is not about protecting the innocent; | |
| it is about creating appalling, even life threatening | |
| situations for women. It is a tax increase of historic | |
| proportions. | |
| Finally, if passed, it would eliminate the private market | |
| for abortion insurance coverage. The chief sponsor of this | |
| legislation, the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Smith, has been | |
| very clear about his purpose. When he introduced this bill, he | |
| cited a study by the Guttmacher Institute that showed a decline | |
| in the rate of abortions of approximately 25 percent when | |
| funding is cut off. What that proves, if it proves anything, is | |
| that economic coercion works, and the remarks we have just | |
| heard from the Chairman made crystal clear that the unashamed | |
| purpose of this bill is to use economic coercion to prevent | |
| women and families from exercising their constitutional right | |
| to make a choice of abortion even with their own funds. | |
| It is an unprecedented attack on women, on families, on | |
| their rights under the Constitution and, for that matter, on | |
| the private insurance market. Let's not pretend this bill has | |
| anything to do with government funding. It does not. | |
| I yield back the balance of my time. | |
| Mr. Franks. Thank you, Mr. Nadler. And without objection, | |
| other Members' opening statements will be made part of the | |
| record. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chairman, may I be recognized for a | |
| unanimous consent request? | |
| Mr. Franks. Certainly. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I ask | |
| unanimous consent to place into the record testimony submitted | |
| by our colleague, the gentlewoman from the District of | |
| Columbia, Ms. Norton. The gentlewoman had requested that she be | |
| allowed to present testimony in today's hearing because there | |
| is a provision in the bill that specifically pertains to her | |
| district, the District of Columbia, and to no other, but we | |
| were told that the Chairman of the full Committee has denied | |
| that request. I am sorry. I regret that she was denied | |
| permission to testify, and I hope that this has been a | |
| misunderstanding and that in the future Members of Congress | |
| will be, as was the practice when I was Chairman of the | |
| Subcommittee, permitted on request to testify as witnesses, | |
| especially if it has something to do specifically with their | |
| own district. So I ask unanimous consent to place her statement | |
| and my statement in the record. | |
| Mr. Franks. Without objection, your statement and hers will | |
| be placed in the record. | |
| [The prepared statement of Mr. Nadler follows:] | |
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| __________ | |
| [The prepared statement of Ms. Norton follows:] | |
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| __________ | |
| Mr. Nadler. I thank the gentleman. | |
| Mr. Franks. Just to clarify the issue, Mr. Nadler, Chairman | |
| Smith has decided that as a general policy the Judiciary | |
| Committee and its Subcommittees will only have one panel of | |
| witnesses for each hearing and that the panel will consist of | |
| no more than four witnesses. The minority is able to select a | |
| witness. And if they would like to invite a Member to testify, | |
| that is certainly something they can do. The Chairman did not | |
| refuse Ms. Norton's ability to be here; she just had to be | |
| chosen as one of the minority witnesses. | |
| There may be times when the Committee is not able to | |
| accommodate every individual who wishes to testify. However, | |
| the record always remains open for 5 legislative days for | |
| others to submit testimony if they wish. This is a bright line | |
| rule that is not meant to discriminate against any particular | |
| potential witness. It is meant to ensure that hearings are | |
| succinct enough so that Members are able to hear all of the | |
| witnesses and participate in a meaningful way. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chairman? | |
| Mr. Franks. Mr. Nadler. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I simply would like to comment on | |
| that. I have never objected--I mean, some Committees in this | |
| Congress have three and four panels, I certainly have never | |
| objected and indeed I sometimes welcome that this Committee | |
| generally only has one panel. It makes life easier and more | |
| succinct. I am not objecting to that now. | |
| However, when the minority only has only one witness, which | |
| has been the practice under the Democrats and Republicans and | |
| certainly that is not a change here, but in certain | |
| circumstances it presents a quandary. Here we have a bill | |
| dealing for the most part with a broad issue of taxpayer | |
| funding of everything that I talked about and a specific | |
| provision dealing with the District of Columbia. To say that | |
| the minority could have Ms. Norton as the witness to talk about | |
| D.C. is to say that we couldn't talk about the basic provisions | |
| of the bill. And if we choose to have one witness on the basis | |
| of the provisions of the bill, then Ms. Norton is denied the | |
| opportunity to talk about the specific application to her | |
| district. That is why when I was Chairman we--if a Member | |
| desired to testify, especially if there was something to do | |
| with his or her district, we would always provide a separate | |
| panel for that Member, and for partisan purposes you might say, | |
| all right, if it's a Republican we will have a Democrat testify | |
| about something, too. But you would allow that flexibility | |
| under the general rule. And I would hope in the future that | |
| flexibility would be attended to. | |
| Mr. Franks. Thank you, Mr. Nadler. | |
| If the witnesses would come forward and be seated. We have | |
| a very distinguished panel of witnesses today. | |
| Each of the witnesses' written statements will be entered | |
| into the record in its entirety, and I ask that each witness | |
| summarize his or her testimony in 5 minutes or less. Now to | |
| help you stay within that time there is a timing light on your | |
| table. When the light switches from green to yellow, you will | |
| have 1 minute to conclude your testimony. When the light turns | |
| red, it signals that the witness' 5 minutes have expired. | |
| Our first witness is Mr. Richard M. Doerflinger, associate | |
| director of the Secretariat of Pro-Life Activities, United | |
| States Conference of Catholic Bishops, where he has worked for | |
| over 30 years. His writings on medical ethics and public policy | |
| include contributions to the Journal of Law, Medicine & Ethics, | |
| Duquesne Law Review, the Kennedy Institute of Ethics Journal, | |
| the National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly, and the American | |
| Journal of Bioethics. The May 22nd, 2004 issue of National | |
| Journal featured Mr. Doerflinger as one of the 12 experts whose | |
| ideas are shaping national debate on the use and abuse of | |
| biotechnology. | |
| Our second witness is Cathy Ruse, Senior Fellow for Legal | |
| Studies at the Family Research Council's offices. Mrs. Ruse | |
| worked previously as FRC's Legal Director, as well as the Legal | |
| Counsel and Program Director for the National Center for | |
| Children and Families. We are proud to note that Mrs. Ruse--Ms. | |
| Ruse has served as Chief Counsel of this very Subcommittee. | |
| Wired Magazine has called her one of the most influential | |
| opinion shapers in the country. | |
| Our third witness is Professor Sara Rosenbaum, the Harold | |
| and Jane Hirsh Professor of Health Law and Policy and Chair of | |
| the Department of Health Policy at George Washington University | |
| School of Public Health and Health Services. Professor | |
| Rosenbaum also directs the Hirsch Health Law and Policy Program | |
| and the Center for Health Services Research and Policy and | |
| holds appointments in the Schools of Medicine and Health | |
| Sciences and Law. | |
| Now without objection, all Members will have 5 legislative | |
| days within which to submit materials for the record. | |
| It is the practice of this Subcommittee to swear in the | |
| witnesses, so if you will all please stand and raise your right | |
| hand. | |
| [Witnesses sworn.] | |
| Mr. Franks. Thank you, and please be seated. | |
| I now recognize our first witness, Richard Doerflinger, for | |
| 5 minutes. | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| Mr. Franks. Sir, would you turn on that microphone? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Is this it? | |
| Mr. Franks. Yes, sir. Thank you. | |
| TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. DOERFLINGER, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF THE | |
| SECRETARIAT OF PRO-LIFE ACTIVITIES, UNITED STATES CONFERENCE OF | |
| CATHOLIC BISHOPS (USCCB) | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this | |
| opportunity to present our views in support of the No Taxpayer | |
| Funding for Abortion Act. This bill will write into permanent | |
| law policy on which there has been strong popular and | |
| congressional agreement for over 35 years: The Federal | |
| Government should not use tax dollars to support or promote | |
| elective abortion. That principle has been embodied in the Hyde | |
| amendment and in numerous other provisions governing a wide | |
| range of domestic and foreign programs, and has consistently | |
| had the support of the American people. | |
| Even courts insisting on a constitutional right to abortion | |
| have said that alleged right ``implies no limitation on the | |
| authority of a State to make a value judgment favoring | |
| childbirth over abortion and to implement that judgment by the | |
| allocation of public funds.'' | |
| In 1980, the U.S. Supreme Court said the Hyde amendment is | |
| an exercise of the ``legitimate congressional interest in | |
| protecting potential life,'' adding: ``Abortion is inherently | |
| different from other medical procedures because no other | |
| procedure involves the purposeful termination of a potential | |
| life.'' In our view the Court's only mistake here was the | |
| phrase ``potential life.'' In our view, unborn children are | |
| actually alive, until they are made actually dead by abortion. | |
| While Congress's policy has been consistent for decades, | |
| its implementation in practice has been piecemeal, confusing | |
| and sometimes sadly inadequate. Gaps or loopholes have been | |
| discovered in this patchwork of provisions over the years, | |
| highlighting the need for permanent and consistent policies | |
| across the Federal Government. | |
| Last year, Congress passed major health care reform | |
| legislation with at least four different policies on abortion | |
| funding, ranging from a ban on such funding in one section of | |
| the bill to a potential mandate for such funding in another. | |
| If H.R. 3 had been enacted before that debate began, the | |
| debate would not have been about abortion. A major obstacle to | |
| support by Catholics and other pro-life Americans would have | |
| been removed, and the final legislation would not have been so | |
| badly compromised by provisions that place unborn human lives | |
| at grave risk. | |
| H.R. 3 would prevent problems and confusions on abortion | |
| funding in future legislation. Federal health bills could be | |
| debated in terms of their ability to promote the goal of | |
| universal health care, instead of being mired in debates about | |
| one lethal procedure that most Americans know is not truly | |
| health care at all. | |
| H.R. 3 would also codify the Hyde-Weldon amendment, a part | |
| of the annual Labor-HHS appropriations bills since 2004, and I | |
| would say one of many conscience provisions, beginning with the | |
| Church amendment in 1973, named after Senator Frank Church of | |
| Idaho, which has tried to protect the rights of health care | |
| providers not to be coerced into abortion. | |
| The Hyde-Weldon amendment was recently reaffirmed, | |
| unanimously, as part of the House version of health care reform | |
| legislation in Congressman Waxman's Health Subcommittee. It was | |
| approved by voice vote without dissent, but sadly it did not | |
| survive in the final legislation. | |
| Hyde-Weldon ensures that Federal agencies, and State and | |
| local governments receiving Federal funds, do not discriminate | |
| against health care providers because they do not take part in | |
| abortions. And I emphasize that because this is a modest bill | |
| that has the Federal Government essentially policing itself. It | |
| is government restraining itself from coercing abortion; it | |
| does not reach out into private actions. | |
| It is long overdue for the Hyde-Weldon policy as well to | |
| receive a more secure status. Here also Congress's policy has | |
| been clear for 38 years, but the mechanism for achieving it has | |
| suffered from drawbacks and loopholes, including a failure even | |
| to specify where or how providers may go to have their rights | |
| enforced. | |
| H.R. 3 writes this essential civil rights protection into | |
| permanent law, allows for modest and reasonable remedies to | |
| ensure compliance, provides for a private right of action, and | |
| designates the HHS Office for Civil Rights to hear complaints | |
| as well. | |
| The need for more secure protection in this area is clear. | |
| The American Civil Liberties Union, for example, has been | |
| urging the Federal Government to force Catholic and other | |
| hospitals to violate their moral and religious convictions by | |
| providing what the ACLU calls emergency abortions. By this it | |
| means all abortions to serve women's life or health, which it | |
| surely knows has been interpreted by the Federal courts to mean | |
| social or emotional well-being. | |
| This is an obvious threat to access to life affirming | |
| health care. Catholic hospitals alone care for one in six | |
| patients in the United States each year and provide a full | |
| continuum of health care through more than 2,000 sponsors, | |
| systems, facilities and related organizations. They have been | |
| shown to provide higher quality and more effective care, | |
| including care for women, than anyone else in various studies. | |
| If Congress wants to expand rather than eliminate access to | |
| lifesaving health care, including lifesaving health care for | |
| women and particularly for the poor and the underserved, it | |
| should be concerned about any effort to attack the rights of | |
| these providers and undermine their continued ability to serve | |
| the common good. | |
| Just to give short answers to some questions raised about | |
| H.R. 3, with longer answers in our prepared text, H.R. 3 does | |
| not eliminate private coverage for abortion but specifically | |
| allows such coverage when purchased without Federal subsidy. It | |
| does not create an unprecedented policy of denying tax benefits | |
| to abortion, but follows the recently enacted Affordable Care | |
| Act in this regard, which I believe had some Democratic | |
| support. It is that Act which said use of tax credits for | |
| abortion is, ``Federal funding of abortion.'' This simply | |
| follows the precedent. | |
| This bill does not depart from precedent by saying that | |
| Federal law does not compel States to fund any abortions. In | |
| this regard as well, it follows a policy actively supported by | |
| the Democratic leadership in the last Congress and stated no | |
| less than three times in the Affordable Care Act. | |
| Finally, its conscience clause does not place women's lives | |
| at risk. What places women's lives at risk, as we recently | |
| learned from the story of Dr. Gosnell in Philadelphia--but he | |
| is only the tip of the iceberg--what places women's lives at | |
| risk is the abortion industry itself as well as that same | |
| industry's attacks on the continued viability of the most | |
| effective providers of lifesaving care in the world. | |
| My prepared text provides additional details, and I would | |
| be happy to answer questions. Thank you. | |
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| __________ | |
| Mr. Franks. Thank you, Mr. Doerflinger. We now recognize | |
| Mrs. Ruse for 5 minutes. | |
| TESTIMONY OF CATHY CLEAVER RUSE, SENIOR FELLOW | |
| FOR LEGAL STUDIES, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL | |
| Ms. Ruse. Thank you for inviting me to provide testimony | |
| this morning, this afternoon, on the No Taxpayer Funding for | |
| Abortion Act. And it is nice to be back, a little less work on | |
| this side of the dais but not much. | |
| Thirty-five years ago something of a consensus was reached | |
| between those who support legal abortion and those who oppose | |
| it. Whatever our differences on the underlying question of | |
| legality, a majority of Americans came together and supported a | |
| proposition that the Federal Government should not subsidize | |
| abortions. That consensus took the form of the Hyde amendment | |
| in 1976, which limited abortion funding appropriated under | |
| Labor-HHS to cases where an abortion was necessary to save a | |
| mother's life and later the cases involving rape and incest. | |
| The Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Hyde | |
| amendment in Harris v. McCrae and in so doing made a sharp | |
| distinction between abortions and other medical procedures. In | |
| the words of the Court, no other procedure involves the | |
| purposeful termination of a potential life. | |
| That abortion is scandalous to many is understandable. That | |
| it is exceptionally controversial in the United States is | |
| beyond dispute. For these reasons it is entirely appropriate | |
| that abortions not be subsidized in any way by the Federal | |
| Government. The No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act implements | |
| this legal and political consensus on a government-wide basis. | |
| Over the years the Hyde amendment and others like it have | |
| been included in various appropriations bills renewed annually | |
| by Congress. What has been lacking is a single, simple law | |
| prohibiting government funding of abortion across the board | |
| wherever Federal dollars are expended. | |
| We taxpayers paid for 425 abortions in fiscal year 2008 and | |
| 220 last year. Without the Hyde amendment and the patchwork of | |
| other appropriations writers, that number could skyrocket to as | |
| many as 675,000 government-financed abortions every year, | |
| according to the CBO. | |
| Now two measures passed in the last Congress also | |
| threatened to escalate the number of government-funded | |
| abortions dramatically. The D.C. appropriations bill opened the | |
| door for Federal funding of any and every abortion in the | |
| District of Columbia, and the Patient Protection and Affordable | |
| Care Act, known popularly as ObamaCare, authorized Federal | |
| funding for elective abortions directly and through private | |
| health insurance plans. A detailed accounting of the abortion | |
| subsidies in ObamaCare is included in my written testimony. | |
| Because these programs are directly appropriated and not | |
| subject to further appropriation under Labor-HHS, they are not | |
| subject to the Hyde amendment. As for the Executive order | |
| purporting to nullify abortions in ObamaCare, last month former | |
| White Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel admitted that he ``came up | |
| with an idea for an Executive order so that the abortion | |
| funding restrictions would not exist by law.'' On this he and I | |
| are in agreement with each other and also with Planned | |
| Parenthood, who issued a statement calling the Executive order | |
| a symbolic gesture. | |
| It is axiomatic that when government subsidizes conduct, it | |
| encourages it. Our Tax Code is replete with pertinent examples. | |
| The Supreme Court in Maher v. Roe acknowledged the truth of | |
| this proposition in the context of abortion. | |
| Most abortions in America are purely elective. Ninety-two | |
| percent of abortions every year are performed on healthy women | |
| with healthy babies, according to the Alan Guttmacher | |
| Institute. In light of this fact the abortion funding question | |
| is quite literally a matter of life and death for many | |
| thousands of American children. | |
| Now, President Obama has urged Americans to find common | |
| ground on the controversial issue of abortion. Americans have | |
| come together, 67 percent of us, in what may be the only truly | |
| bipartisan agreement possible that whatever our differences on | |
| the issue of abortion we can agree that the Federal Government | |
| should not subsidize it. This is the common ground issue on | |
| abortion in America today. H.R. 3 would make that common ground | |
| statutory law. | |
| Thank you. | |
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| __________ | |
| Mr. Franks. Thank you, Mrs. Ruse. We now recognize | |
| Professor Rosenbaum for 5 minutes. | |
| TESTIMONY OF SARAH ROSENBAUM, HAROLD AND JANE HIRSH PROFESSOR, | |
| HEALTH LAW AND POLICY, AND CHAIR, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH POLICY, | |
| THE GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH AND | |
| HEALTH SERVICES | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. Thank you very much for inviting me here | |
| today to appear before you. I would like to make three points | |
| in my testimony. I have submitted a longer statement for the | |
| record. The first has to do with the baseline from which we are | |
| working in considering H.R. 3. The second has to do with the | |
| changes in the bill. The third has to do with the impact of | |
| these changes. | |
| Insofar as the baseline is concerned, I think it is very | |
| important to understand what the Affordable Care Act does and | |
| does not do. The Affordable Care Act, where tax credits are | |
| concerned, allows women to obtain tax credits, to use those tax | |
| credits to buy insurance products, and if they choose to do so, | |
| to use their own money to buy additional coverage for abortion. | |
| If they make that choice and use their additional funds, their | |
| own funds, to buy abortion coverage, the tax credits remain | |
| completely available for the abortion product. | |
| I emphasize this because it underscores the unprecedented | |
| nature of the bill. The bill would actually for the first time | |
| move the Hyde amendment far beyond where we have known it for | |
| the past 30 years directly into the Tax Code. Its reach in the | |
| Tax Code is extremely broad under this bill. It reaches | |
| deductions, and credits, it reaches advance tax credits even | |
| when those tax credits have to be repaid at a later date. It | |
| reaches health savings accounts, it reaches flexible spending | |
| accounts, it reaches money that we as individuals put aside for | |
| our medical care needs. It even potentially reaches employers | |
| and employer deductions for insurance because of a critical | |
| ambiguity in the drafting of the bill. It is unclear actually | |
| where the bill stops. | |
| The impact of the bill insofar as its tax policies are | |
| concerned is enormous. The first fallout is on the Internal | |
| Revenue Service (``IRS''), which heretofore has not played a | |
| role in implementation of the Hyde amendment. The IRS is going | |
| to have to implement extremely complex provisions of the Tax | |
| Code that regulate tax favored health benefit plans and medical | |
| care payments. The IRS will have to issue a raft of | |
| implementing policies. The Internal Revenue Service will need | |
| to define rape, potentially forcible rape, incest, potentially | |
| incest involving minors as opposed to incest not involving | |
| minors, physical conditions endangering life and physical | |
| conditions that don't endanger life. The IRS will have to | |
| clarify what evidentiary standards will be required for | |
| individual claimants and employers who choose to buy products | |
| or make expenditures that wander into any of these areas. | |
| There also will have to be a claims reviews process. For | |
| example, is a spontaneous abortion or a miscarriage an | |
| allowable expenditure under a flex fund? Does it for some | |
| reason cross the line? What will be the appeals procedures?How | |
| will plans be audited to make sure that their coverage stops at | |
| the allowable points under the statute? | |
| The fallout on plans is equally serious. My own analysis, | |
| both of this bill and previous bills that attempted to do | |
| similar things in terms of the impact on the insurance | |
| industry, leads me to conclude that what we will see in fact is | |
| a complete exodus of health plans from the abortion coverage | |
| market. I realize that may be the long-term goal here, but of | |
| course because there are not a lot, but a small number of very | |
| serious medically indicated abortions, this would be an | |
| enormous problem. | |
| The third fallout of course is on the women themselves, not | |
| only because they can no longer secure coverage for medically | |
| indicated abortions, but because the typical practice in a | |
| health plan is to exclude not only specific procedures required | |
| under law, but follow-on procedures and treatments that are | |
| related to the original excluded treatment. So to use an easy | |
| example, a woman who needs an abortion because she has | |
| eclampsia, that is, stroke level hypertension, and who then | |
| needs subsequent treatment for the hypertension could find that | |
| she in fact is disqualified for the treatment of that | |
| hypertension because of the hypertension arose as the result of | |
| a condition that led to an excluded abortion. So there is no | |
| stopping point. | |
| I would finally note that were the conscious clause | |
| provisions of this law to be enacted, it would begin the first | |
| great unraveling of EMTALA and the absolute duty on the part of | |
| hospitals to provide lifesaving treatment regardless of the | |
| underlying medical condition. | |
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| __________ | |
| Mr. Franks. Thank you, Professor. I thank all of you for | |
| your testimony. And I will now begin the questioning by | |
| recognizing myself for 5 minutes. I will start with you, Mr. | |
| Doerflinger. | |
| Absent the enactment of H.R. 3, what does a health care | |
| provider risk if the provider obeys his or her conscience and | |
| refuses to perform an abortion? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Well, I don't want to overstate this, Mr. | |
| Chairman, because in my view H.R. 3 basically codifies and | |
| makes more permanent protection that has long been in law. The | |
| problem is that--and this was illustrated in one case in New | |
| York very recently--the existing conscience laws aren't very | |
| clear on what it is you do to actually protect your rights. So | |
| a nurse by the name of DeCarlo at Mount Sinai Medical Center in | |
| New York recently found that although she was forced to | |
| participate in a late term abortion, after having her statement | |
| accepted initially by the hospital staff that she would not be | |
| required to assist in these abortions, she was forced anyway. | |
| She was given the job of reassembling the body parts on a table | |
| in the operating room to make sure they got all of the pieces | |
| of the baby. She has had nightmares ever since and had a | |
| terrible time. And she was told that she would be fired if she | |
| didn't do this. And what she found when she went to court was | |
| that because the Federal conscience laws don't have anything in | |
| them that say you have a private right of action to go to | |
| court, she had no recourse. All she could do is file a | |
| complaint with the Department of Health and Human Services. And | |
| a year and a half after the abortion she still has not heard | |
| from them. | |
| The cases in which there continue to be efforts to get | |
| governmental bodies to discriminate against pro-life health | |
| care providers occur almost every week. There was a recent case | |
| here in my hometown, Montgomery County, in which Holy Cross | |
| Hospital seems to be on course now, approved by the State of | |
| Maryland, to build a new hospital in northern Montgomery | |
| County, because it made the best case for being able to provide | |
| excellent care to the women and men of the county. But there | |
| was a very serious effort by abortion activists to say you must | |
| not give this contract to Holy Cross Hospital, you must give it | |
| to someone else, even if their general health care proposal is | |
| not as good, because if you give it to Holy Cross, you will not | |
| have access to abortions through the hospital up there. | |
| So these efforts to discriminate against health care | |
| providers on this basis occur all the time, and we are just | |
| trying to make sure the protection is actually there and is | |
| working. | |
| Mr. Franks. Mr. Doerflinger, there was a controversy in | |
| 2007 and 2008 concerning the extent of conscience protections | |
| for health care workers, specifically changes in the ethics | |
| guidelines propounded by ACOG, American Congress of | |
| Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and changes in the certifying | |
| criteria for the certifying agency of OB/GYNs, that is ABOGs. | |
| There are all these acronyms. American Board of Obstetrics and | |
| Gynecology. And it caused physicians to question whether | |
| refusal to perform an abortion can result in decertification, | |
| ending their career actually. Would you explain this | |
| controversy and how it led to the conscience regulations put in | |
| place at the end of the Bush administration? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Yes, the Ethics Committee opinion from the | |
| American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists came out in | |
| 2007, but despite all the controversy it was reaffirmed by the | |
| organization in 2010. And what really sent a chill of fear | |
| across many OB/GYNs throughout the country who do not perform | |
| abortions is that very often the ethical principles articulated | |
| by ACOG become standards for certification as an OB/GYN by the | |
| partner organization, the American Board of OB/GYN. | |
| And so this was one of the reasons why the Bush | |
| administration decided to try to clarify regulations to uphold | |
| these providers' rights, regulations which the Obama | |
| administration has proposed to rescind. But the ACOG document | |
| is breathtaking in its disregard for any OB/GYN whot doesn't | |
| want to do abortions. They say that these OB/GYNs must | |
| nonetheless be willing to refer for abortions. If there is no | |
| one to refer them to, they must do them themselves. And they | |
| even said that if you are an OB/GYN who does not do abortions, | |
| you should make sure you locate your practice near an abortion | |
| provider to make sure that it is easy for everybody to get from | |
| you to the abortion. | |
| So one talks about the tail wagging the dog, this is the | |
| tick on the tail of the dog wagging the entire health care | |
| system, saying people have to disrupt their lives and | |
| livelihoods and change even where they practice to make sure | |
| they are as close as possible to an abortionist. | |
| Mr. Franks. Well, I am not going try to get another | |
| question in here, my time is about gone. So I am going to yield | |
| to the distinguished gentleman Mr. Nadler for his questions. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | |
| Ms. Ruse, you take the position that the reduction of | |
| taxation is a form of government subsidy. Now this is flatly at | |
| odds with what your organization, the Family Research Council, | |
| stated about tax credits and deductions in the context of | |
| tuition for religious schools. If it isn't Federal--where you | |
| said there is no government spending on religion here, it's | |
| people's private money that they send to various student | |
| tuition organizations. If it isn't Federal funding when people | |
| use their private money to fund religion tuition at a parochial | |
| school and receive a tax deduction or credit for doing so, how | |
| is it Federal funding when people use their private money to | |
| pay for their medical care or insurance coverage? | |
| Ms. Ruse. As a general proposition, tax reduction is a form | |
| of government subsidy. | |
| Mr. Nadler. And by tax reduction, you mean like a tax | |
| credit or something? | |
| Ms. Ruse. Correct, that's right. And I would just direct | |
| you to, and I will get you the citation if you need it, but | |
| ObamaCare itself makes this distinction. It calls, or makes | |
| this equation I should say, it calls tax credits for buying | |
| insurance on State exchanges, it calls those a creature of | |
| Federal funding. If you have an argument with me---- | |
| Mr. Nadler. Excuse me. I am asking you. | |
| Ms. Ruse. Yeah. | |
| Mr. Nadler. It seems inconsistent, either it is or it | |
| isn't. How can you say that for religious schools it is--it is | |
| not and for health insurance it is? How do you make that | |
| distinction? | |
| Ms. Ruse. Well, I appreciated your opening statement where | |
| you said it is our money. And that is what the Republicans | |
| often say and I think that is accurate. | |
| Mr. Nadler. In which case you shouldn't be arguing what you | |
| are arguing with respect to health care. If it is our money, | |
| then it is not a government subsidy, as you said in the | |
| Arizona--or your organization said in the Arizona case. If it | |
| is not our money and it is a government subsidy, then it is the | |
| contrary. Both things can't be true. | |
| Ms. Ruse. And I would say your argument is with President | |
| Obama and his health---- | |
| Mr. Nadler. That may be, but I am asking you how you | |
| justify saying it is a government subsidy here but not there. | |
| Which is it and why is it different? | |
| Ms. Ruse. As a general proposition tax reduction is a form | |
| of government subsidy, as a general proposition. | |
| Mr. Nadler. But not with respect to religious schools? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger, let me ask you. As a general proposition | |
| government tax exemptions, tax subsidies, or what you call | |
| government spending, you said it was a tax? What did you say? | |
| As a general proposition it is a form of government subsidy. If | |
| tax exemptions are a form of government subsidy, how do we | |
| justify tax exemptions for the Catholic church, the Jewish | |
| synagogue, the Protestant church or anybody else or any other | |
| government---- | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. I think the first reason churches are not | |
| taxable is simply that they don't make a profit or are | |
| nonprofit organizations. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Wait a minute. They are exempt from--all right. | |
| What about the individual who gives money to the church that is | |
| not taxable? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Right. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Under your definition isn't that a government | |
| subsidy to the church? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. I think the Federal Government has made a | |
| policy decision a very long time ago that charities and | |
| churches---- | |
| Mr. Nadler. Excuse me, it is not a question of a policy | |
| decision, because if it is a public subsidy to the church, it | |
| is unconstitutional because of the establishment clause. So | |
| either if government--a tax credit to the individual | |
| contributing to the church is not a government subsidy, then | |
| these things aren't government subsidies. If it is a government | |
| subsidy, then you have got an establishment problem under the | |
| First Amendment, have you not? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. It is not unconstitutional to give public | |
| subsidies to a charitable or church organization, as long as | |
| you are serving a legitimate secular purpose. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Excuse me. But wait a minute. You are--we are | |
| not talking about that. | |
| Our policy, we, if you give a tax--I'm sorry, a | |
| contribution, when I give a contribution to my synagogue it is | |
| not for general purposes, it is for religious purposes. | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Right. | |
| Mr. Nadler. And I take a tax deduction for that. Now under | |
| your definition that is a government subsidy of the synagogue | |
| of the church and it should be therefore a violation of the | |
| First Amendment. | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. That is not my definition, sir. I disagree | |
| with your basic premise, which is that all of these things are | |
| the same and it is all one thing. | |
| Mr. Nadler. You are just trying to have your cake and eat | |
| it too, because either a tax exemption is a government subsidy | |
| or it is not. If it is not a government subsidy the whole point | |
| of this bill. | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. I---- | |
| Mr. Nadler. Excuse me, I am talking. The point of this bill | |
| is wrong. If it is a government subsidy, then this bill may be | |
| right, but then we have to question--not just question but then | |
| tax subsidies, government subsidies for religious institutions | |
| are probably unconstitutional as violations of establishment | |
| clause of the First Amendment. | |
| Professor Rosenbaum, do you agree with Ms. Ruse's position | |
| that H.R. 3 does not affect employer provided plans? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. I do not. For the reasons stated in my | |
| written testimony I find section 303(2) ambiguous. It | |
| specifically refers to any deduction covering not only medical | |
| care but health benefit plans and I think that the ambiguity is | |
| critical on this point. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I am told my time has expired. | |
| Mr. Franks. Thank you, Mr. Nadler. And just to clarify the | |
| point, both tax preferred status and appropriations have been | |
| recognized in the courts as being allowed for a public good, | |
| and I think the consideration here is that abortion is not a | |
| public good. And so it really doesn't need to reach Mr. | |
| Nadler's point, which I think he has some elements to his | |
| point. It doesn't matter if it is a tax preferred status or | |
| not. The government should still have the right to shape the | |
| Tax Code in favor of a public good or against something that | |
| they consider not a public good. | |
| With that, I would recognize the distinguish gentleman from | |
| Indiana, Mr. Pence, for his questions. | |
| Mr. Pence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And let me also join | |
| the Ranking Member in congratulating you on your appointment. | |
| As Chairman of the Subcommittee, I think you know that I can | |
| think of no one in the newly minted majority in Congress that I | |
| think is more appropriate to lead this Subcommittee than you. | |
| And I found your opening remarks powerful and eloquent and I | |
| wish to offer you my congratulations, as I do to all the | |
| Members in the majority and the minority on this Subcommittee. | |
| Thanks for holding this hearing. I appreciate the | |
| opportunity to participate in a discussion of H.R. 3, and I | |
| commend Congressman Chris Smith for his leadership on this | |
| issue. As our witnesses have testified, with the passage of the | |
| Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the need for a | |
| permanent government wide prohibition on taxpayer funding for | |
| abortion has probably never been more important. Sadly, | |
| Congress last year traded in 30 years of statutory protections | |
| for taxpayers for a piece of paper signed by the most pro- | |
| abortion President since Roe v. Wade. The need to pass this | |
| legislation I believe is self-evident when we think about the | |
| extraordinary subsidies, both direct and indirect, in the | |
| ``Patient Protection Affordable Care Act'' for abortion across | |
| government spending. | |
| Let me say I also think now is the time to end taxpayer | |
| funding not only for abortion but also for abortion providers. | |
| That is why I have authored a bill, the Title X Abortion | |
| Provider Prohibition Act, that would end all Title X family | |
| planning funding to abortion providers. | |
| Specifically, Planned Parenthood is sadly back in the news | |
| today. A new undercover video has been released showing | |
| multiple violations by Planned Parenthood employees in New York | |
| to go along with scandalous videos from Planned Parenthood | |
| clinics in New Jersey and Virginia. The videos show Planned | |
| Parenthood employees presumably advising an undercover sex | |
| trafficker on how to secure secret abortions, STD testing and | |
| contraception for child prostitutes. And I just have to tell | |
| you, Mr. Chairman, as the father of two teenage girls I can not | |
| be dispassionate about video evidence of individuals | |
| facilitating the abuse of minor young women in this way. | |
| We have introduced this legislation, and along with H.R. 3, | |
| I hope the Congress will take up the Title X Abortion Provider | |
| Prohibition Act. | |
| Planned Parenthood received over $363 million in taxpayer | |
| dollars, principally through Title X; and in 2008 alone, they | |
| performed 324,008 abortions. With more than a million abortions | |
| performed annually in this country, abortion is a heart- | |
| breaking billion dollar industry that mostly benefits Planned | |
| Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is far and away the largest | |
| abortion provider in America, and they are also the largest | |
| recipient of Federal funding under Title X. And I believe the | |
| time has come for that to end. | |
| With that said, let me direct a question to Mrs. Ruse whose | |
| testimony I found compelling, as I do appreciate her leadership | |
| on this issue across the country. You spoke about the CBO | |
| projection that without the protections of this legislation, | |
| there could be as many as 675,000 government-financed abortions | |
| in this country. With this growing video record of Planned | |
| Parenthood employees, is there any doubt in your mind that | |
| Planned Parenthood would be the largest recipient of abortion | |
| support if H.R. 3 was not enacted into law? | |
| And I guess my specific question, Mrs. Ruse, is if we do | |
| not succeed in passing H.R. 3 and banning public funding of | |
| abortion across government systems broadly, would that not be a | |
| windfall specifically for Planned Parenthood? | |
| Ms. Ruse. I think the word ``windfall'' is accurate. Last | |
| year, Planned Parenthood committed 324,008 abortions in the | |
| United States of America. If you open the doors to Federal | |
| funding, Federal subsidies of abortion in the way that | |
| ObamaCare will do it, there is no question that the chief | |
| recipient of those funds will be Planned Parenthood who is | |
| showing itself to be internally corrupt and unable to handle | |
| their finances, at a minimum, given what we know about what is | |
| happening in California. And more than that, aiding and | |
| abetting in the abuse of minors as these videos come out one | |
| after another. | |
| And incidentally, those who try to minimize Planned | |
| Parenthood--the expose' on Planned Parenthood as a single | |
| situation or one bad egg, I just want to remind this Committee | |
| that these videos, these undercover videos have been coming out | |
| for the last 4 years. They have not gotten as much play as | |
| those recently, and come from over 10 States: Alabama, Indiana, | |
| New Jersey, New York, Virginia. It suggests there is a system- | |
| wide problem with Planned Parenthood and they do not deserve | |
| one million dollars a day of taxpayer dollars. | |
| Mr. Pence. I thank you. This hearing is obviously on H.R. 3 | |
| and on the issue of direct public subsidy for abortion, and so | |
| we will not in this hearing discuss how the hundreds of | |
| millions of dollars that flow into Planned Parenthood, | |
| organizations that operate as title 10 indirectly support the | |
| abortion efforts of Planned Parenthood, but I look forward to | |
| that hearing, Mr. Chairman, perhaps in another Committee. | |
| I commend the members of this panel for your thoughtful | |
| comments. | |
| I yield back the balance of my time. | |
| Mr. Franks. I thank the gentleman, as always. | |
| I now call on Mr. Quigley for 5 minutes. | |
| Mr. Quigley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Congratulations on | |
| your new post. | |
| I hate to begin by respectfully disagreeing with you, but I | |
| would only suggest that the public good that private health | |
| insurance is providing health insurance, and the incentive is | |
| to encourage employers to provide health insurance to everyone | |
| possible. But let me, if I can, Mr. Doerflinger, I guess the | |
| fair question to your points is how far does this go? And since | |
| you are the one testifying, I think it is fair, with your | |
| personal beliefs or any particular church. I would suppose | |
| that--I know the church, I'm not sure about you, believes that | |
| the use of modern birth control, the pill, is morally wrong. So | |
| would you then say that we don't want to use tax subsidies, or | |
| you call funding, to health insurance companies that provide | |
| birth control pills for women? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. I think it is a very different moral | |
| issue, Congressman. | |
| Mr. Quigley. It is still the same directive from the | |
| Catholic Church, isn't it? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Yes, but we are not against Federal | |
| funding of abortion because Catholic moral teaching is against | |
| it. We are against abortion because it is a violation of the | |
| most fundamental right. It is something rejected not only by | |
| Catholics, and many other religions, but by the Hippocratic | |
| Oath that gave rise to medicine as a profession. | |
| It is against the considered moral judgment of millions of | |
| Americans who have no particular religious affiliation at all. | |
| And it has been seen in the past as a crime. Of course today, | |
| there is at least one abortion procedure that is a Federal | |
| crime. And it is the killing of children who in any, other | |
| context, are seen even in Federal law as persons who have a | |
| right to be protected from lethal harm, the Unborn Victim of | |
| Violence Act. There is an arbitrary exception for abortion. | |
| Mr. Quigley. Let's go to another example, embryonic stem | |
| cell research. Do you believe Congress should impose tax | |
| penalties on people who purchase insurance policies that cover | |
| medical cures derived from such research? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. I think that is a--well, let's say it is a | |
| very farfetched thing to have happen. | |
| Mr. Quigley. Respectfully, you don't think people's lives | |
| are saved with embryonic stem cell research? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. I'm sorry? | |
| Mr. Quigley. You don't think people's lives are saved with | |
| embryonic stem cell research? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. I don't think that the evidence exists to | |
| say that embryonic stem cells will ever be used in actual | |
| clinical treatment. They are far too uncontrollable. They cause | |
| far too many tumors when used in animals. You can't tell what | |
| they are going to do once they are in a human body. So I think | |
| it is an imaginary question. But let me answer that I think | |
| what we are concerned about here is the use of tax dollars, tax | |
| subsidies, tax support for something that actually takes life. | |
| We are against Federal funding of embryonic stem cell | |
| research itself when it involves the taking of life of an | |
| embryonic human being. In some States, Pennsylvania is one, the | |
| killing of an embryo for experimental purposes is a felony, and | |
| yet the Federal Government is funding it. | |
| Mr. Quigley. Let me turn to the Professor. It appears that | |
| our issue here is primarily whether or not this is Federal | |
| funding. Can you elaborate, to a certain extent, on the policy | |
| implication once it is decided that, I guess it was the Supreme | |
| Court in Walz versus the Tax Commission, that the court upheld | |
| property tax exemptions for such property. Once that is | |
| crossed, what are the other implications legally for not for | |
| profits, not just religious? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. Well, I think they are, as has already been | |
| said, most eloquently by Mr. Nadler, the conversion of what has | |
| been tax advantaged private spending, which is understood in | |
| society as private spending, it is simply not subjected to | |
| certain otherwise applicable taxes, into an overt public | |
| financing of certain activities. It has profound implications. | |
| It has profound implications to the extent to which, as has | |
| been noted, certain recipients of those exemptions are suddenly | |
| receiving public funding for certain purposes not permitted | |
| under the Constitution. But also, it has implications for the | |
| kinds of conditions that can be attached to entities that do | |
| receive exemptions. It becomes a much more government-intrusive | |
| process in which government is setting the terms and | |
| conditions, as in the case of H.R. 3, for the receipt of a tax | |
| exemption. In this case, an entity can only receive favorable | |
| tax treatment if it does not seek or provide medically | |
| necessary care, certain types of medical care. | |
| Mr. Quigley. I thank you. | |
| Mr. Franks. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize the | |
| former Chairman of this Committee, Mr. Chabot. | |
| Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to commend you | |
| as Mr. Pence did. I know you are going to be a great Chair of | |
| this Committee. I did have the honor to serve for 6 years. And | |
| I wanted to go to a Committee where we knew the problems would | |
| be a little bit easier to solve. I know this is a controversial | |
| Committee; it always has been. We are assured of success on the | |
| Committee that I'm going to be chairing. I am going to be | |
| chairing the Foreign Affairs Committee's Subcommittee on the | |
| Middle East, so that is going to be interesting. | |
| Mr. Franks. After this, it will be easy; won't it? | |
| Mr. Chabot. I think so. That's right. This hearing itself | |
| is showing evidence of that. | |
| You know, I couldn't help, it was mentioned that--Ms. Ruse | |
| I think mentioned there were 329,000 abortions a year committed | |
| by Planned Parenthood. I happen to represent the first district | |
| of Ohio and the largest entity, governmental entity in that | |
| district is the city of Cincinnati, and abortions in this | |
| country almost wipe out the population of Cincinnati every | |
| year. It is just amazing when you think how many little boys | |
| and little girls don't ever experience the life that we have | |
| all had the opportunity to experience because of this procedure | |
| which is still allowed in this country. | |
| I was struck, again, going back to my district, Cincinnati, | |
| I was reading the story in the Cincinnati Enquirer some weeks | |
| ago about this doctor, Dr. Kermit Gosnell in west Philadelphia, | |
| and the headline in there was ``House of Horrors,'' and it | |
| certainly was. But I would argue that what goes on in these | |
| abortion clinics all over the country is certainly houses of | |
| horror and we shouldn't be funding it at all as far as I am | |
| concerned, but certainly not with tax dollars of people who | |
| don't want their tax dollars going to carry out that type of | |
| behavior. | |
| Talking about that doctor, Dr. Gosnell, according to the | |
| grand jury report on the activities that were conducted by him | |
| at his clinic, and it was called the Women's Medical Society in | |
| west Philadelphia, on page 4 of the report, it says, and I'm | |
| quoting this, When you perform late term abortions by inducing | |
| labor, you get babies--live, breathing, squirming babies. By 24 | |
| weeks, most babies born prematurely will survive if they | |
| receive appropriate medical care, but that was not what the | |
| Women's Medical Society was about. Dr. Gosnell had a simple | |
| solution for unwanted babies: he killed them. He didn't call it | |
| that. He called it ensuring fetal demise. The way he ensured | |
| fetal demise was by sticking scissors into the back of the | |
| baby's neck and cutting the spinal cord. He called that | |
| snipping. Over the years, there were hundreds of snippings. | |
| I would ask you, Professor Rosenbaum, do you think American | |
| taxpayers should have to pay for this kind of activity? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. Mr. Chabot, I don't really see the | |
| connection between what is absolutely a terrible, terrible | |
| story and the tax finance issue here. | |
| Mr. Chabot. Let me draw the connection then for you. If he | |
| was doing this outside the womb, if he had snipped those spinal | |
| cords within the womb, that would be perfectly legal in this | |
| country; wouldn't it? And should we use tax dollars to pay for | |
| that type of activity? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. I think your question suggests that this | |
| bill involves tax dollars. | |
| The Hyde amendment is a very clear statement about the use | |
| of---- | |
| Mr. Chabot. Reclaiming my time. | |
| Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield? | |
| Mr. Chabot. I only have a very short time here, and I have | |
| a couple of other points I would like to make. | |
| Let me ask the other two witnesses, is that legal? Would | |
| that be legal in the first trimester, second trimester, that | |
| type of activity in abortion clinics, or are there restrictions | |
| relative to what they can do to destroy that child in the womb? | |
| Ms. Ruse. Very likely, yes. The only procedure that | |
| currently is not legal is the partial birth abortion procedure. | |
| So unless he followed the steps outlined in the partial birth | |
| abortion procedure, and my reading of the grand jury report is | |
| that he was not taking those steps, then what he was doing | |
| would be perfectly legal if it was done just before delivering | |
| the baby. | |
| Mr. Chabot. I see my time has expired. I thank you, Mr. | |
| Chairman. I yield back. | |
| Mr. Franks. I thank the gentleman. It should be noted the | |
| gentleman was a prime sponsor of the partial birth abortion, | |
| and will forever be a hero to me because of that. | |
| I now yield to Mr. Conyers, the distinguished former | |
| Chairman of the Committee, and we're going to call him Ranking | |
| Member for now. | |
| Mr. Conyers. I thank you very much. My congratulations. I | |
| could observe that the view isn't quite as good from this end | |
| as it used to be when we were on the other side, but I'll get | |
| use to it again. | |
| I also wanted to welcome Mike Pence to the Committee and | |
| appreciate his coming aboard. What he has got against the | |
| Planned Parenthood people I have yet to discover. They have | |
| done, I thought, a pretty good job, but he is bound and | |
| determined to defund them, and I think do a great disservice to | |
| a very effective organization that has brought help and | |
| assistance to women over the years. | |
| Now, Mr. Chairman, we talked about the fact that Eleanor | |
| Holmes Norton was not permitted to testify. Was the author of | |
| this bill prevented from being a witness here today, too? | |
| Mr. Franks. Mr. Conyers, that was discussed earlier. The | |
| author of the bill could have been the witness here if they had | |
| been chosen as the Democrat witness. It is the Committee | |
| structure of the panel for witnesses. | |
| Mr. Conyers. You didn't want the author of the bill to | |
| testify? | |
| Mr. Franks. I would have had no problem with that | |
| whatsoever, sir. | |
| Mr. Conyers. Did he ask to testify? | |
| Mr. Franks. I'm not sure he asked to testify. I think Ms. | |
| Norton asked to testify, and if she wanted to be the Democrat | |
| witness, that would have been all right. | |
| Mr. Conyers. But the author of the bill, who I presume is | |
| here today, we are in the first few weeks of the 112th Session, | |
| and this is a major piece of legislation, and he is not here. | |
| Mr. Franks. Mr. Conyers, I have just been told that the | |
| author made the decision not to testify. We don't know the | |
| reasons. | |
| Mr. Conyers. Okay. | |
| Well, let me ask Ms. Ruse this question: The title of this | |
| bill is No Taxpayer Funding For Abortion Act. Do you know of | |
| any Federal funding for abortion that goes on in this country | |
| presently? | |
| Ms. Ruse. The potential funding of abortion and the | |
| potential subsidies of abortion are numerous. The debate last | |
| fall over the Burris amendment in the Senate, opening up our | |
| military facilities to allow elective abortions to be done | |
| then, that would be impacted by H.R. 3. That is still an open | |
| question. We may see reversal of that policy. And as you know, | |
| under the Clinton administration, that policy was reversed and | |
| opened up to elective abortions on military hospitals. That is | |
| one example. | |
| So these policies, that being just one example---- | |
| Mr. Conyers. And you would object to that? | |
| Ms. Ruse. Yes. | |
| Mr. Conyers. And if you knew of any others, you would | |
| object to them as well? | |
| Ms. Ruse. Yes. I would object to the funding of or | |
| subsidizing of elective abortions with Federal funding, | |
| absolutely. That's right. | |
| Mr. Conyers. So you think this is an appropriate title of a | |
| bill then, No Taxpayer Funding For Abortion Act, because women | |
| in service may be able or might be able to get an abortion? | |
| Ms. Ruse. Yes, that is one example. | |
| Mr. Conyers. Well, that is the only example that I know of. | |
| If you know of others, let me know. | |
| Ms. Ruse. Well, the District of Columbia appropriations | |
| bill last Congress also opened up Federal funding for abortions | |
| in the District of Columbia. So that is currently an area that | |
| needs to be corrected by H.R. 3 by employing the long-standing | |
| principal of the Hyde amendment. And the District of Columbia | |
| often does have that appropriations rider applied. It was just | |
| taken off just a few months ago. So that would be corrected by | |
| H.R. 3. | |
| Mr. Conyers. All right. It is my impression that this is a | |
| misleading title of the bill, not Federal funds, D.C. taxpayers | |
| funds, not funds from Fed Treasury. That is just a staffer. | |
| You're the expert witness. | |
| Let me turn to another consideration. Has my time expired? | |
| One final question, Mr. Chairman, and thank you. Section | |
| 311 of this bill protects individuals who refuse to provide | |
| abortion services. As I read it, Ms. Ruse, this would mean that | |
| someone who refused to provide life-saving treatment and | |
| allowed a woman to die as a result might escape any | |
| consequences if that were to happen; is that your | |
| understanding? | |
| Ms. Ruse. No, not at all. What this section of H.R. 3 does | |
| is simply codify the long-standing principle of the Church | |
| amendment which allows health care providers to decline to | |
| participate in abortions. That has been around for 38 years. In | |
| that history of the Church amendment, we have never seen a | |
| situation where women were dying at the hands of outside an | |
| abortion clinic because they weren't able to have an abortion. | |
| Now, I would also like to mention that EMTALA has never | |
| been used to require an emergency provision of an abortion, | |
| with is the Emergency Medical Treatment Act. That has come up | |
| earlier in the meeting. So we have a long history of this | |
| conscience protection section. The only additional new part of | |
| it is allowing remedies, allowing someone who has been | |
| discriminated against, like this nurse, DeCarla, to have a | |
| cause of action. So that is the new part. But the conscience | |
| language itself is just codifying this long-standing policy. | |
| Mr. Conyers. I would like to have unanimous consent to put | |
| in some articles from The Nation Magazine, and the New York | |
| Review of Books as well. | |
| Mr. Franks. Without objection. | |
| I thank you, Mr. Conyers. | |
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| __________ | |
| Mr. Franks. I now recognize for 5 minutes the distinguished | |
| gentleman from Iowa. | |
| Mr. King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I welcome you also as | |
| Chairman of this Committee. I have had the privilege to serve | |
| on this Committee now starting my 9th year, and I am really | |
| glad to see you here with the gavel. And I am also delighted to | |
| see my former colleague and now current colleague, again, Mr. | |
| Chabot, back on this Committee and back on the subject matter | |
| that he led so well on. I look back at those debates here in | |
| this Committee when we were dealing with the terminology called | |
| ``dilation and extraction'' which was a nice term for partial | |
| birth abortion. | |
| And Steve Chabot laid that out in a very good and clear | |
| way, and it was one significant piece of progress that this | |
| Congress has made, and there haven't been many over the last | |
| decade or so. That was dilation and extraction. Now we have | |
| Federal funding for dilation and evacuation, which I have asked | |
| them to put this poster up here so we know what we are talking | |
| about. And I recognize we have experts on the law here, but we | |
| are dealing with human lives. I would ask if each of you have | |
| reviewed this process that I will call dismemberment abortion. | |
| If each of you, and I would ask on the record, starting with | |
| Mr. Doerflinger, are you familiar with this dismemberment | |
| abortion? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. From the point of view of a nonmedical | |
| professional, yes, sir. | |
| Mr. King. Ms. Ruse? | |
| Ms. Ruse. My answer is the same. | |
| Mr. King. And Professor Rosenbaum? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. It would be the same. | |
| Mr. King. You all are familiar with this procedure where | |
| the tool is used to dismember the baby and pull the parts of | |
| the baby apart, in utero dismemberment, and as they count the | |
| pieces up piece by piece, if it looks like you get down to the | |
| point where often the head is so well formed and the bone is so | |
| well structured that it has to be crushed and then pulled out, | |
| collapsed and then suctioned to make sure that the bone | |
| fragments don't bring about a high degree of hemorrhaging. For | |
| me I can't see much difference between partial birth abortion | |
| and dismemberment abortion, but we are here talking about | |
| legalities, talking about a complicated, convoluted tax policy | |
| that might be prohibitive for us to prohibit Federal funding | |
| for a procedure like this, this dismemberment abortion. | |
| I know the positions of Mr. Doerflinger and Mrs. Ruse, but | |
| Professor Rosenbaum, you have not addressed this from a | |
| standpoint other the complications of the taxes. I would just | |
| ask: Should government fund a procedure like this? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. Again, I would have to respond that I am not | |
| prepared today to answer this question. I was focused on a bill | |
| that is dealing with what I don't consider to be government | |
| funding. | |
| Mr. King. But Professor, you understand that---- | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. If I could just finish. As far as I can | |
| tell, there is no public funding for this procedure right now, | |
| except in those situations in which one of the three very | |
| limited categories has been satisfied under Federal law. So my | |
| answer would be we are not publicly funding these procedures | |
| now, and the bill before us is not a public funding bill. | |
| Mr. King. I have before me data that shows about 142,800 of | |
| these dismemberment abortions taking place in America just last | |
| year by the Guttmacher Institute. We could go into the | |
| disagreement we might have, but I would ask you, you are aware | |
| that if your testimony has impact here, then it might bring | |
| about this procedure that we are looking at now, and more of it | |
| funded by Federal tax dollars. So I am going to ask you then: | |
| Do you have a moral position on this or is it just a legal one | |
| on taxes? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. I prefer actually to keep my moral positions | |
| out of this hearing. I have very strongly held religious and | |
| moral views on many things. | |
| In terms of today's hearing, as I said, I don't think I see | |
| any example of public financing for this procedure except in | |
| the excepted circumstances. | |
| Mr. King. Since you don't, if we could resolve that there | |
| is Federal funding for abortions in this country, and there has | |
| been testimony to that effect by Mr. Doerflinger in particular, | |
| and I think also by Ms. Ruse, if we establish that point, are | |
| you in a position to change your position? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. I truly am having trouble following the | |
| question. | |
| Mr. King. Let me go another route. You have reviewed this | |
| procedure. Could you step into an operating room and witness | |
| it? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. I am a law professor, so I presume I would | |
| never be in an operating room to see it. | |
| Mr. King. You can't answer that question then whether you | |
| could observe it or not. I'm going to also understand that if I | |
| asked you if you could actually conduct that procedure, you | |
| would answer the same way. But I won't ask you that question, | |
| Professor. I just make this point, that this is a ghastly, | |
| gruesome and ghoulish procedure, and it is dismemberment | |
| abortion. And I have known people who could not vote for a | |
| death penalty because they couldn't conduct it themselves, and | |
| they take that moral position. I understand that psychology. | |
| But when we look at something we are asking taxpayers to | |
| fund against their will that is so ghastly, so gruesome and so | |
| ghoulish that we can't abide even looking at it or watching it, | |
| or watching a full video of it or listening to the sounds that | |
| go on there, and we are funding it and compelling taxpayers to | |
| fund this kind of a dismemberment abortion, I think that | |
| illustrates what we are up to here, and we should go to all | |
| steps to stop Federal dollars from going to abortion. | |
| I thank you, and I yield back. | |
| Mr. Franks. I thank the gentleman. | |
| I would now yield to Mr. Scott of Virginia. | |
| Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I join the others | |
| in congratulating you on your new position and look forward to | |
| working with you. | |
| Mr. Doerflinger, Professor Rosenbaum talked about the tax | |
| deduction and the wording seems a little unclear. Is it your | |
| belief that the tax deduction should still go to the health | |
| policy but just not that portion that pertains to abortion? Or | |
| should the entire policy lose its deductibility if it includes | |
| abortion coverage? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Congressman, this is one of the problems I | |
| had with trying to be helpful to Mr. Nadler. I think there are | |
| a lot of different ways in which the Tax Code gets implicated | |
| in this, and there are some cases that are much more | |
| straightforward than others. I think with regard to the premium | |
| tax credits in the Affordable Care Act, the policy that was put | |
| in place was that premium tax credits will not go directly to | |
| an abortion procedure itself, but they will go to an overall | |
| health plan that includes such abortions without limit. And | |
| then there will be a little accounting procedure within the | |
| plan to try to keep the Federal and private funds separate. My | |
| problem with that is that---- | |
| Mr. Scott. Just in terms of the bill, is it your intent | |
| that the entire, if someone has a policy that includes abortion | |
| coverage, should the employer lose the entire deductibility of | |
| the whole policy or just that portion that pertains to the | |
| abortion coverage? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Congressman, my understanding from the | |
| analysis of this bill by the Congressional Research Service is | |
| that it does not cover the employer deduction. | |
| Mr. Scott. Well, whatever deduction we are talking about, | |
| tax benefits, credits, are we just talking about the abortion | |
| portion or the entire policy? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. There are two questions: One is whether | |
| this is Federal funding, and somebody has to draw a | |
| nonarbitrary line. | |
| Mr. Scott. The answer is it is not clear. | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. The second question is whether, if we | |
| consider that it does cross the line into being a subsidy, | |
| whether you ban the subsidy just for abortion itself or for a | |
| plan that includes it. That policy decision was made many years | |
| ago in the Hyde amendment. The Federal employees health | |
| benefit---- | |
| Mr. Scott. We are here talking about the legislation. | |
| Professor Rosenbaum, you mention that there is a lack of | |
| clarity as to whether the whole policy would lose its | |
| deductibility, or whether just the portion attributable to | |
| abortion coverage would not be deductible; is that right? You | |
| said it is unclear? | |
| Ms. Rosenbaum. No, actually I think it is very clear that | |
| the entire policy, whatever is affected under this bill, the | |
| entirety would lose its deductibility, its tax advantage. What | |
| is not completely clear to me because of the term ``any | |
| deduction'' is whether the deductibility applies only to | |
| individual taxpayer deductions, or in fact, could at some point | |
| be interpreted to reach employer deductions. But I do believe | |
| that the deduction would be struck in its entirety if the | |
| product sold is a product that includes one of the prohibited | |
| abortion procedures, hence the extraordinarily difficult | |
| problems for the IRS in determining when the deductibility | |
| standard would be met. | |
| Mr. Scott. The question I had was whether that was the | |
| intent and we couldn't get an answer, so it must be unclear. | |
| Mr. Doerflinger, should government funds be used for | |
| capital punishment? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. My organization is against capital | |
| punishment. I think if you are going to have capital | |
| punishment, it pretty much has to be tax funded. But we are | |
| against that. We believe in the abolition of the death penalty. | |
| Mr. Scott. Good. Should we work together, you and me, to | |
| prohibit government funds to be used for capital punishment? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Unless the intent is to put it out into | |
| the private sector, yes. | |
| Mr. Scott. Could you explain the exception for rape, why | |
| that is there? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. This recent debate about rape and forcible | |
| rape? | |
| Mr. Scott. No. Why there is an exception? | |
| Mr. Doerflinger. Why there is an exception? I think you | |
| would have to get that answer from someone who supports it. I | |
| can understand why some people want that exception. They want | |
| to be able to say that if the woman had no part in the decision | |
| to have sex, to get pregnant, then she should not have to bear | |
| this child that was part of no decision by her. My problem with | |
| that is, although that is a horrible thing, and there are a lot | |
| of things that the health care system and the government should | |
| do for women who have been victims of rape. I can't help | |
| thinking that there is another person involved now who has also | |
| has a right to live. I have met some kids who were conceived in | |
| rape. They and their mothers are great people and they are glad | |
| it was not an abortion. | |
| But I think the recent debate about forcible rape was | |
| simply an effort on the part of the sponsors to prevent the | |
| opening of a very broad loophole for federally funded abortions | |
| for any teenager. The objection to that, which I thought was | |
| very interesting and helpful and clarifying, the objection to | |
| that was by people saying it doesn't mean that. Rape already | |
| means forcible. So if you say forcible rape, that is redundant | |
| and courts are going to read that as requiring some level of | |
| violence or brutality that goes beyond rape itself. | |
| When Congresswoman Wasserman Schultz objected to the phrase | |
| ``forcible rape,'' she said: ``Rape is when a woman is forced | |
| to have sex against her will. That is whether she is conscious, | |
| unconscious, mentally stable, not mentally stable.'' | |
| I think that is a pretty good definition, and I think that | |
| the Subcommittee could sort of stipulate in legislative history | |
| that is what we all mean. We are talking about cases where | |
| force is used or women have been subjected to this against | |
| their will, and move on. | |
| Mr. Chabot. I would like to thank Mr. Scott and thank all | |
| of our witnesses for their testimony today on this very crucial | |
| issue to humanity itself. | |
| Mr. Quigley. Mr. Chairman, a procedural question, if I | |
| could? | |
| Mr. Franks. Yes. | |
| Mr. Quigley. In your opening statement, I believe you | |
| talked about perspective changes that you intended for the | |
| legislation. I believe you talked about what was just | |
| mentioned, that was rape. If I missed it, I'm apologizing, as | |
| it relates to incest as well? | |
| Mr. Franks. I know that there are ongoing deliberations and | |
| they are trying to deal with at least the rape question. I | |
| can't speak to the incest question, but I am sure that will be | |
| part of their thought process. And I would invite you to be | |
| involved in that process. | |
| Mr. Quigley. Absolutely. | |
| Mr. Franks. Without objection, all Members will have 5 | |
| legislative days to submit to the Chair additional written | |
| questions for the witnesses, and we will forward and ask the | |
| witnesses to respond as promptly as they can so that their | |
| answers may be made part of the record. | |
| Without objection, all Members will have 5 legislative days | |
| within which to submit any additional materials for inclusion | |
| in the record. | |
| With that, again, I thank the witnesses and I thank the | |
| Members and observers. This hearing is adjourned. | |
| [Whereupon, at 5:36 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] | |
| A P P E N D I X | |
| ---------- | |
| Material Submitted for the Hearing Record | |
| Prepared Statement of the Honorable Mike Quigley, a Representative in | |
| Congress from the State of Illinois, and Member, Subcommittee on the | |
| Constitution | |
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| <F-dash> | |
| Addendum to the Prepared Statement of Cathy Cleaver Ruse, | |
| Senior Fellow for Legal Studies, Family Research Council | |
| <GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT> | |
| <F-dash> | |
| Letter from Cardinal Danile N. DiNardo, Archbishop of Galveston/ | |
| Houston, Chairman, Committee on Pro-Life Activities, United States | |
| Conferece of Catholic Bishop | |
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| Letter from Sr. Carol Keehan, DC, President and CEO, | |
| Catholic Health Association of the United States | |
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| Prepared Statement of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) | |
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| Prepared Statement of the Center for Reproductive Rights | |
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| Material submitted by Cory L. Richards, Executive Vice President, | |
| and ice President for Public Policy, the Guttmacher Institute | |
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| Prepared Statement of Douglas Laube, MD, MEd, Board Chair, | |
| Physicians for Reroductive Choice and Health | |
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| <F-dash> | |
| Letter from Cassing Hammond, MD, Director, Section of Family Planning & | |
| Contraception, Associate Professor of Obstetrics and Gyncology, | |
| Northwestern Feinberg School of Medicine, and Chair, National Abortion | |
| Federation Board of Director | |
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| Prepared Statement of the National Abortion Federation | |
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| Prepared Statement of Silvia Henriquez, Executive Director, | |
| the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health | |
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| Prepared Statement of Debra Ness, President, and Judith Lichtman, | |
| Senior Advisor, the National Partnership for Women & Families | |
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| Prepared Statement of Rabbi David Saperstein, Director and Counsel, | |
| Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism | |
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| Prepared Statement of Nancy Keenan, President, | |
| NARAL Pro-Choice American Foundation | |
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| Prepared Statement of Nancy Ratzan, President, National Council of | |
| Jewish Woman | |
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| Material submitted by the Center for Reproductive Rights | |
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| __________ | |
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| Material submitted by DC Vote | |
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| Press Release from the National Abortion Federation (NAF) | |
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| <all> | |
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