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	<title> - UNITED STATES STANDING IN INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS</title>
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	[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
	[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


	UNITED STATES STANDING IN INTERNATIONAL
	ORGANIZATIONS

	=======================================================================

	HEARING

	BEFORE THE

	SUBCOMMITTEE ON
	INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS AND GLOBAL
	CORPORATE SOCIAL IMPACT

	OF THE

	COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
	HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

	ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

	FIRST SESSION

	__________

	MARCH 23, 2021

	__________

	Serial No. 117-18

	__________

	Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

	[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


	Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://docs.house.gov,

	or http://www.govinfo.gov

	__________


	U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
	43-786 PDF WASHINGTON : 2021

	--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

	GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman

	BRAD SHERMAN, California MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
	ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey Member
	GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
	THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
	KAREN BASS, California SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
	WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts DARRELL ISSA, California
	DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
	AMI BERA, California LEE ZELDIN, New York
	JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas ANN WAGNER, Missouri
	DINA TITUS, Nevada BRIAN MAST, Florida
	TED LIEU, California BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
	SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania KEN BUCK, Colorado
	DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
	ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota MARK GREEN, Tennessee
	COLIN ALLRED, Texas ANDY BARR, Kentucky
	ANDY LEVIN, Michigan GREG STEUBE, Florida
	ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
	CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
	TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey PETER MEIJER, Michigan
	ANDY KIM, New Jersey NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
	SARA JACOBS, California RONNY JACKSON, Texas
	KATHY MANNING, North Carolina YOUNG KIM, California
	JIM COSTA, California MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida
	JUAN VARGAS, California JOE WILSON, South Carolina
	VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas RON WRIGHT, Texas
	BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois


	Jason Steinbaum, Staff Director
	Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director
	------

	Subcommittee on International Development, International Organizations
	and Global Corporate Social Impact

	JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas, Chairman

	SARA JACOBS, California NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York,
	BRAD SHERMAN, California Ranking Member
	ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota CHRISTOPHER SMITH, New Jersey
	CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania DARRELL ISSA, California
	ANDY KIM, New Jersey



	C O N T E N T S

	----------
	Page

	WITNESSES

	Otero, The Honorable Maria, Former Under Secretary of State for
	Civilian Security, Democracy, and Human Rights, Department of
	State.......................................................... 7
	Hannum, Jordie, Executive Director, Better World Campaign........ 15
	McDougall, Gay J., Senior Fellow and Distinguished Scholar-in-
	Residence, Leitner Center for International Law and Justice/
	Center for Race, Law, and Justice, Fordham University School of
	Law............................................................ 25
	Dugan, Hugh, Former Senior Director for International
	Organization Affairs at the National Security Council.......... 31

	APPENDIX

	Hearing Notice................................................... 57
	Hearing Minutes.................................................. 59
	Hearing Attendance............................................... 60


	UNITED STATES STANDING IN INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

	Tuesday, March 23, 2021

	House of Representatives,
	Subcommittee on International Development,
	International Organizations and Global
	Corporate Social Impact,
	Committee on Foreign Affairs,
	Washington, DC.

	The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m.,
	via Webex, Hon. Joaquin Castro (chairman of the subcommittee)
	presiding.
	Mr. Castro. The Subcommittee on International Development,
	International Organizations and Global Corporate Social Impact
	will come to order.
	Good morning, everyone. It is great to see all of our
	witnesses and our members here. Thank you to our witnesses for
	being here today for this hearing entitled, quote, ``United
	States Standing in International Organizations.''
	Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
	recess of the committee at any point, and all members will have
	5 days to submit statements, extraneous material, and questions
	for the record that are subject to the length limitation in the
	rules. To insert something into the record, please have your
	staff email the previously mentioned address or contact our
	full committee staff.
	Please keep your video function on at all times, even when
	you are not recognized by the chair. Members are responsible
	for muting and unmuting themselves, and please remember to mute
	yourself after you finish speaking. Consistent with remote
	committee proceedings of H.Res.8, staff will only mute members
	and witnesses, as appropriate, when they are not under
	recognition to eliminate background noise.
	I see that we have a quorum and will now recognize myself
	for opening remarks.
	Today we will examine America's standing in international
	organizations. This includes, first and foremost, the United
	Nations. It also includes others, like the Organization for
	Economic Cooperation and Development, and regional
	organizations, like the Organization for American States and
	the Inter-American Development Bank, and other key multilateral
	institutions.
	These institutions' very existence are an American
	accomplishment, an enduring legacy of the international order
	that American policymakers built out of the ashes of World War
	II and hope might prevent another destructive conflict.
	While the world has changed immensely since 1945, let us
	recognize that the U.N. and other international organizations
	have succeeded in their primary goal of avoiding a direct
	conflict between major powers. For 40 years, instead of
	fighting the Soviet Union in the North Atlantic for the Fulda
	Gap, we battled them in international organizations and the
	eyes of the world opinion. Crucially, the United States
	ultimately prevailed.
	Today it seems too many of us take for granted that the
	cold war did not turn hot, and policymakers have too often
	failed to communicate the importance of international
	organizations to maintaining peace around the world.
	Ironically, it has been the very success of international
	organizations that has allowed some to doubt their value.
	This attitude culminated with the Trump Administration.
	Former President Trump's hostility toward multilateralism,
	international organizations, and even many of our allies, is
	well-known and has had dire consequences for United States
	leadership.
	At the heart of our hearing today will be this question.
	How can our Nation recover its standing in international
	organizations after 4 years of unprecedented damage? The task
	of doing so is more essential than ever. From the COVID-19
	pandemic and climate change to migration and the refugee
	crisis, the challenges our Nation faces are global and will
	require global solutions.
	Former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said about NATO, quote,
	``If we did not have NATO today, we would need to create it.''
	The same can be said about the United Nations and other
	international organizations. If we did not have the U.N. today,
	we would need to create it.
	In this chaotic and challenging global moment,
	international organizations must be part of our approach. This
	is not to downplay the real flaws that many international
	organizations have. It is no secret that the very institutions
	which help define human rights have members who abuse them and
	are working to redefine the term ``human rights'' to meet their
	own ends.
	The actions of China and Russia have too often prevented
	the U.N. Security Council from being an effective body in
	addressing atrocities around the world, as we have seen again
	and again in Syria. These are real concerns with the United
	Nations and other international organizations, with Democrats
	and Republicans both making these arguments. Yet the solution
	cannot be for American to abandon them and cede control of them
	to our adversaries.
	As with the cold war, the new era where the United States
	finds itself competing with China and Russia for influence
	makes international organizations a first order issue.
	We must redouble our engagement and commitment to
	leadership. Wherever important global issues are being decided,
	America must have a seat at the table. Similarly, the United
	States must take up the battle of ideas in a court of global
	opinion.
	I commend President Biden for beginning that work,
	rejoining the World Health Organization and restoring funding
	to key U.N. agencies are crucial, commonsense moves that will
	increase American influence around the world.
	We here in Congress must continue that work and build a
	stronger foundation for American participation in international
	organizations. The stakes are simply too high for us to fail.
	With that, Ranking Member Malliotakis, please go ahead with
	your opening remarks.
	Ms. Malliotakis. Thank you, Chairman Castro, for calling
	this important hearing. I look forward to working with you and
	the rest of the committee members to conduct important
	oversight of our engagement with the United Nations and other
	international organizations.
	The creation of the subcommittee comes at a pivotal time.
	In recent years, we have seen the post-World War II
	international order challenged, as countries like China and
	Russia seek to rewrite the rules in ways that advance their
	nationalistic agendas and undermine State sovereignty in places
	like Ukraine and South China Sea.
	At times, there have been voices advocating for withdrawal
	of the United States from the international stage. I can
	certainly understand their frustration with the abuse of the
	United Nations system by malign actors.
	As we saw in the early stages of COVID-19, international
	organizations are not perfect. The World Health Organization
	routinely parroted Chinese Communist Party talking points that
	conflict with statements made by our own experts. The WHO's
	medical advice during the pandemic has routinely lagged behind
	scientific consensus.
	As an example, the WHO did not recommend the use of masks
	for the general public until June 5, 2020, 137 days after
	finally confirming that COVID-19 was spreading via human-to-
	human transmission. In comparison, the Centers for Disease
	Control and Prevention here in the United States recommended
	masks in early April of last year.
	Despite widespread evidence of the CCP suppressing the
	genomic sequence of the virus that causes COVID-19, arresting
	doctors and journalists and censoring social media discussions
	of the outbreak within China, Director General Tedros praised
	the CCP for its transparency and setting a new standard for
	outbreak response.
	The WHO's embrace of CCP propaganda directly impacted how
	Americans view the virus. Lawrence Gostin, a professor of
	global health law at Georgetown University, who also provides
	technical assistance to the WHO said, ``We were deceived.
	Myself and other public health experts, based on what the World
	Health Organization and China were saying, reassured the public
	that this was not serious, that we could bring this under
	control. We were given a false sense of assurance.''
	However, I do not believe the correct response to these
	missteps by the WHO is the United States to withdraw. The
	United Nations, and international organizations more broadly,
	are not perfect. They are consensus bodies that reflect the
	countries who engage with them. As such, I believe the only way
	the United States can push back against the behavior and fight
	for true reform is by having a seat at the table.
	At the same time, the U.S. engagement should be tempered
	and clear-eyed. Recently, President Biden announced that the
	United States will be rejoining the U.N. Human Rights Council
	and running for a seat on the Council this fall.
	The U.N. Human Rights Council is a deeply flawed body, with
	a terrible track record of protecting dictatorship and despots
	and covering up the crimes of the world's worst human rights
	abusers.
	Current members of the Council include China, who is
	actively engaged in carrying out genocide against religious and
	ethnic majorities in Xinjiang; Russia, who has carried out
	nerve agent attacks on political opposition leaders, like
	Alexei Navalny; and Venezuela, when Maduro-backed forces have
	killed more than 20,000 people for resistance to authority; and
	even countries like Cuba that have a horrible record, decades
	of oppression of its own people.
	Despite this, the Council has focused its efforts on
	persecuting Israel, the only country permanently featured on
	the Council's agenda as its own item. I appreciated that
	Secretary Blinken raised some of these issues publicly when he
	addressed the Council last month. However, I believe reforms to
	address these issues should be a prerequisite for the U.S.
	seeking election to the Council, not a hopeful goal left to be
	achieved some time in the future.
	When the United States engages with the United Nations, its
	agencies, or other international organizations, we bring not
	only our values but also our financial contributions. The U.S.
	accounts for roughly one-quarter of both the regular and
	peacekeeping budgets of the U.N.
	Chairman Castro, I look forward to working with you to
	conduct rigorous oversight on U.S. engagement with the United
	Nations and other international organizations. We must be at
	the table, but we have a duty to the American taxpayer to
	ensure that our engagement with IOs is targeted, strategic, and
	maximizes the positive impact of the United States abroad.
	Again, I look forward to working with you and thank the
	witnesses for being here.
	Mr. Castro. [Speaking off microphone] First, the Honorable
	Maria Otero, former Under Secretary of State for Civilian
	Security, Democracy, and Human Rights, and I will also note a
	Latina trailblazer in American foreign policy, who was the
	first Latina under secretary at the State Department.
	Mr. Jordie Hannum, Executive Director of the Better World
	Campaign and a strong advocate for America's key role in the
	United Nations.
	Next we have Ms. Gay J. McDougall, a Senior Fellow and
	Distinguished Scholar-in-Residence at the Leitner Center for
	International Law and Justice, as well as the Center for Race,
	Law, and Justice at Fordham University School of Law, as well
	as the former vice chairperson of the U.N. Committee of the
	Elimination of Racial Discrimination.
	And, finally, Mr. Hugh Dugan, the former Senior Director
	for International Organization Affairs at the National Security
	Council, who was deeply involved in setting U.S. policy on
	issues during the last Administration, the Trump
	Administration.
	I want to thank each of you for being with us today to
	share your expertise and wisdom, and I will now recognize each
	of the witnesses for 5 minutes. And without objection, your
	prepared written statements will be made part of the record.
	And I will first call on Ms. Otero for her testimony. Ms.
	Otero, you have 5 minutes.

	STATEMENT OF MARIA OTERO, FORMER UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR
	CIVILIAN SECURITY, DEMOCRACY, AND HUMAN RIGHTS, DEPARTMENT OF
	STATE

	Ms. Otero. Thank you, Chairman Castro, and members of the
	committee. I want to thank you for this opportunity to speak
	with you today in this very important subcommittee on the issue
	of international organizations.
	I believe that to protect American prosperity, security,
	and health, to promote our values around the world, and guard
	our national security, we must pursue mutually beneficial
	partnerships with nations. And one way is through the
	multilateral organizations.
	Let me suggest three categories of multilaterals. Those
	focused on development in which member countries make
	contributions and are part of their governance. The World Bank
	and regional banks are an example. Those focused on the most
	vulnerable and exposed--refugees, populations in conflict
	areas, people that are trafficked, human rights defenders,
	women, and children. Many United Nations organizations fall
	into this category. And those whose member countries vote on
	specific issues, such as the Human Rights Council and the
	Organization of American States.
	My testimony focuses on the first category. Development of
	multilaterals support economic growth, a foundational goal. In
	other countries, as at home, prosperity is the bedrock on which
	all other strengths depend. Multilaterals help countries grow
	their economies and invest in the well-being of their people.
	More prosperous, stable, better-run societies are less likely
	to fray and either export their problems outward or create
	persistent challenges for our country.
	Development of multilaterals offers several comparative
	advantages. First, they invest in the private sectors, and they
	fortify free market economies. Their structure facilitates
	their deep engagement with the private sector. Your financial
	arms--the IFC and the World Bank, IDBInvest, and the Inter-
	American Development Bank--channel billions of dollars in
	investment loans and guarantees to the private sector.
	Second, they leverage resources. In addition to members'
	contributions, multilaterals access billions of dollars on the
	global capital markets, which allow them to punch above their
	weight. Even the World Bank's IDA, which provides interest-free
	loans and grants to the poorest countries, issued its first IDA
	bond in 2017 and is raising billions of dollars from the
	capital markets to increase the funds going to the poorest
	countries.
	Growing these private sectors is firmly in line with our
	own interests. Our absence or lukewarm participation in
	multilateral organizations attracts other countries to fill
	that space. China has moved aggressively to provide long-term
	capital and uses its Belt and Road Initiative to increase its
	influence and to grow trade. When the U.S. pulls back, China
	cheers.
	Third, social inequity is a priority for multilaterals.
	Creating opportunities for skills and jobs for the least
	advantaged, including women, improves their well-being and
	keeps them from seeking a better life outside their countries.
	I note that migration to our border comes from the poorest, the
	most fragile countries in Central America, which offer very few
	opportunities, a situation which is aggravated by the region's
	violence and corruption.
	And, finally, multilaterals focus on urgent global issues
	and seek global solutions. Today's acute and pressing
	challenges are the COVID pandemic and climate change. The U.S.
	can be part of a global response, as we have been in the past.
	In closing, let me just draw briefly from my professional
	experience with multilaterals to illustrate their role. Tiny
	businesses known as microenterprises predominate in developing
	countries--women selling vegetables and street food,
	carpenters, shoemakers, metalworkers, fashioning their products
	with rudimentary tools and on their dirt floor workshops.
	These entrepreneurs need working capital for their
	business, but lacking collateral, they do not have access to
	bank loans. Loan sharks lend them 5 in the morning and collect
	6 in the evening. In the 1980's and 1990's, my organization,
	ACCION, and others experimented with making microenterprise
	loans and getting them repaid.
	We faced two challenges: meeting the high demand for
	capital among the poor and covering our costs of lending. We
	needed a sustainable model. We tested these innovations in
	several countries, and our efforts required financial support.
	Developing the right model took time.
	For more than 10 years, the Inter-American Development Bank
	provided ACCION with grants and soft loans, which allowed these
	transformative experiments in Latin America to reach fruition.
	Today, with IDB support--and let me say with USAID support as
	well--we have built commercial microfinance banks around the
	world that make millions of loans to businesses, including
	women, and provide a safe place for people to keep their small
	savings.
	These banks finance their activities, as banks normally do,
	without one penny of donor money. I sit on the board of
	BancoSol, a microfinance bank in Bolivia, which today has over
	one million clients--borrowers and savers--in a country of 11
	million people. Women in bowler hats and traditional indigenous
	dress enter through the bank's front door with confidence and
	dignity and with a Smartphone in hand.
	Their increased income improves their lives, livelihood,
	and educates their children. The multilaterals have the tools,
	the patience, and the vision to contribute to this type of
	success.
	Our active participation in multilaterals not only aligns
	with our highest values but also with our national interest.
	Standing by our funding commitments gives us a strong voice in
	allocating their considerable resources and in improving the
	quality of their performance.
	Thank you.
	[The prepared statement of Ms. Otero follows:]

	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	Mr. Castro. Thank you, Ms. Otero, for your testimony.
	I will now call on Mr. Hannum for his testimony, please. It
	looks like you are still muted there, Mr. Hannum. Yes. I get
	confused by switching--there you go.

	STATEMENT OF JORDIE HANNUM, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BETTER WORLD
	CAMPAIGN

	Mr. Hannum. There we go. You would think a year in I would
	have it down. Sorry.
	But anyway, thank you, Chairman Castro, Ranking Member
	Malliotakis, and members of the subcommittee, for allowing me
	the opportunity to testify today.
	I work with the Better World Campaign, the advocacy arm of
	the United Nations Foundation, and I will use my time this
	morning to explain how U.S. standing in international
	organizations has suffered over the last 4 years, and why
	engagement and funding for the U.N. is in our country's best
	interest.
	Let me frame this conversation around the four Cs--
	credibility, competition, cooperation, COVID-19. For the first
	C, in President Biden's maiden foreign policy speech, he spoke
	of renewing our role in global institutions and reclaiming our
	credibility and moral authority. Over the last 4 years, the
	U.S. downgraded its engagement with the U.N. system in several
	ways. This included underfunding, defending, or outright
	withdrawing from U.N. agencies and activities.
	Of particular concern, we currently owe more than $1
	billion for U.N. peacekeeping, which means we are underfunding
	troop-contributing countries like Bangladesh, Ghana, and
	Indonesia. These arrears have accrued over just the last 4
	years.
	During her Senate confirmation hearing, Ambassador Linda
	Thomas-Greenfield stated, and I quote, ``We need to pay our
	bills to have a seat at the table, and we need to make sure
	that we are there to push back on those who would have malign
	intentions at the U.N.'' And certainly for many ``malign
	intentions'' refer to China and Russia's actions.
	The reality is that both countries have used our massive
	arrears, our planned withdrawal from the WHO and Paris
	agreement, to say that we are not interested in helping
	countries solve the complex transnational challenges that
	confront us all. These actions have contributed to the
	reputation of the United States plummeting to its lowest point
	in 20 years.
	With respect to China, even though its own record is
	checkered to say the least, because they are investing more
	resources at the United Nations, engaging in U.N. bodies,
	active and bilateral developments for initiatives like Belt and
	Road, their influence is rising in multilateral organizations.
	There has not been a takeover by any stretch, but our prior
	absence meant there was no effective counterweight.
	In fact, the Trump Administration itself realized that its
	approach of withdrawal and withholding was not working when it
	appointed a special envoy to counter China's growing influence
	within international bodies. But it will take more than one
	person to fix the problem.
	In short, the opposite of withdrawal and withhold is engage
	and invest. This means no longer playing chess--no longer
	playing checkers while they play chess, i.e., we should
	increase support for the State Department and USAID, continue
	to rejoin key U.N. bodies that we walked away from, and it
	means paying our dues on time and paying back our arrears,
	because if China and Russia are really the greatest threat to
	America today, as many members of this committee have stated,
	then our approach should follow suit and we should counter them
	on every playing field that exists and marshal available
	resources.
	Of course, countering Russia and China at the U.N. would be
	most effective if the organization is fit for purpose. As
	former Secretary of State and U.S. Ambassador to the U.N.
	Madeleine Albright noted, and I quote, ``The failure to pay our
	old U.N. bills undermines our ability to recruit allies with
	the kind of structural reform that Congress demands.''
	For example, in 2013, when we were in good standing, the
	U.S. worked with the U.N. and allies to create the Human Rights
	up Front Initiative to ensure that all U.N. entities were
	prioritizing human rights in their field operations. It is one
	reason why the U.N. mobilized so quickly to protect civilians
	in South Sudan after the civil war broke out.
	But, in 2018, China and Russia successfully lobbied a range
	of other countries to disband the initiative, using our absence
	and U.S. budget cuts as a pretext. How is that in our interest
	to have it eliminated?
	Alternatively, we have seen the positive results when we
	work in collaboration with the United Nations, both in terms of
	management reform and in terms of realizing results on the
	ground. For example, in October, the U.N. World Food Programme,
	headed by former South Carolina Governor David Beasley, was
	awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, which I might add was the
	twelfth time a U.N. entity has received the prestigious prize.
	Of course, the U.S. is the most generous donor to WFP, but
	our contributions are also leveraged by other nations to
	tremendous effect. Cooperation will also be key in combating
	COVID-19. This can only be done in partnership with the
	international community and entities like the World Food
	Programme and World Health organization.
	As it stands, the WHO is at the center of a global
	cooperative effort to distribute COVID-19 vaccines equitably
	worldwide, which research has shown would, besides the global
	health and humanitarian rationale, benefit the U.S.
	economically more than any other nation. As more vaccines
	become available, most of humanity will get it through efforts
	backed by the WHO and international partners. This is what will
	ultimately end the pandemic, and this is why investing in the
	U.N. is so essential.
	Thank you for your time.
	[The prepared statement of Mr. Hannum follows:]

	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	Mr. Castro. Thank you, Mr. Hannum.
	I will now call on Ms. Gay McDougall for her testimony. Ms.
	McDougall.

	STATEMENT OF GAY McDOUGALL, SENIOR FELLOW AND DISTINGUISHED
	SCHOLAR-IN-RESIDENCE, LEITNER CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW AND
	JUSTICE/CENTER FOR RACE, LAW, AND JUSTICE, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY
	SCHOOL OF LAW

	Ms. McDougall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we all
	agree that this is a moment of great urgency, both in our
	country and worldwide, and that these are challenges that
	cannot be solved without active U.S. engagement in
	international institutions.
	I commend the Biden Administration for reengaging with the
	U.N. Human Rights Council and taking steps to repair our very
	badly frayed reputation in those bodies. After all, the work of
	promoting and protecting human rights is a uniquely American
	contribution to the United Nations initiated by Eleanor
	Roosevelt. And while we have often failed to make it our
	overarching priority, the cause has rarely advanced without
	principled U.S. leadership.
	For more than 2 years, the United States has been absent
	from the Human Rights Council, and for an unprecedented period
	there have been no American experts on the human rights treaty
	bodies, and we cannot afford to not be in those rooms or to not
	be at those tables.
	When the United States is present, important work can get
	done. One excellent example is the Cross-Regional Joint
	statement on Racism led by the U.S. and joined by 155 nations
	which was submitted last week as part of the general debate
	during the 46th session of the Human Rights Council. Only U.S.
	diplomacy could have achieved that broad consensus document on
	fighting racism.
	The U.S. leverages its credibility most powerfully when it
	leads with honesty, humility, and commitment to principle. So
	as we reengage with the U.N.'s human rights systems, the U.S.
	must be honest and transparent about the failures of our human
	rights enforcement here at home. To deny the obvious would be
	self-defeating.
	And with honesty we must also be willing to submit to
	international scrutiny of our shortcomings in the same way that
	we seek to hold other countries accountable for their own
	failures. Without that mutual transparency and accountability,
	the U.N.'s system to protect the rights of people around the
	world is made into a charade.
	Our U.N. Ambassador displayed the impact of honesty so
	effectively last week in a speech to the United Nations General
	Assembly when she offered a moving personal reflection on her
	own life growing up in the segregated south and the deep
	structural racism that continues to undermine our democracy.
	When we lead with that kind of honesty and humility, as our
	Ambassador did last week, we set a tone and example for other
	countries to follow. Further, the project of promotion and
	protection of human rights globally fails if it becomes merely
	another tool in the struggles of geopolitics. Human rights
	protection must be conducted in a safe space in which
	principles of objectivity, fairness, impartiality,
	truthfulness, and good faith dominate. These are principles
	that should be upheld by all of the stakeholders.
	Let me conclude by saying that the United Nations today is
	under attack on many fronts. Too many governments, including
	the U.S., withhold or delay dues, leaving crucial U.N. offices
	crippled and unable to fulfill their missions. Too many
	governments attack the U.N.'s independent human rights experts
	for exposing difficult truths and block the U.N.'s institutions
	from addressing effectively the most desperate human rights
	issues in the world today.
	But with the support of Congress and the Biden
	Administration, I think there is an opportunity to safeguard
	these institutions for the survival of the United Nations. We
	cannot afford to let the U.N. fail.
	Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
	[The prepared statement of Ms. McDougall follows:]

	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	Mr. Castro. Thank you, Ms. McDougall, for your testimony.
	And our final witness, I will now call on Mr. Hugh Dugan
	for his testimony.
	Mr. Dugan.

	STATEMENT OF HUGH DUGAN, FORMER SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR
	INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION AFFAIRS AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY
	COUNCIL

	Mr. Dugan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your
	invitation to appear before the subcommittee, which is a
	privilege. It is a distinct pleasure to see Gay McDougall. I
	had the pleasure of serving as her campaign manager while a
	U.S. delegate to the United Nations, when she was successfully
	elected to the U.N. mission for the elimination of racial
	discrimination.
	I held one of the longest tenures on the U.S. delegation to
	the U.N.--26 years--followed by a professorship at Seton Hall
	University. I then resumed as Acting Special Presidential Envoy
	for Hostage Affairs, and most recently at the National Security
	Council as its Senior Director for International Organization
	Affairs.
	My career in this realm spanned six presidencies, 11 U.S.
	Ambassadors to the United Nations, and most importantly for
	today, 16 sessions of the House of Representatives. A highlight
	in my career was leading the U.N. reform program that brought
	together Senators Helms and Biden to fund our $1 billion U.S.
	arrears to the U.N. in the year 2000.
	It bears repeating for students of world affairs today what
	this subcommittee understands: that politics must end at the
	water's edge.
	Congress has much in common with an international
	organization. Both are membership-based, both seek to leverage
	their values into policies, and they appreciate the force
	multiplier effect of working together.
	The title of today's hearing is ``U.S. Standing in
	International Organizations.'' There our goal is to stand with
	others to promote shared ideals and to stand out as an example
	in pursuit of shared interests through cooperation. Otherwise,
	the U.S. risks merely sitting uncritically, expecting to be
	appreciated as some sort of diplomatic goodwill.
	If the U.S. is seen as indulging international bureaucrats,
	we will discover yet again that our pieces on the U.N.
	chessboard will not move themselves. In that game, each member
	State quietly calculates, does this international organization
	work? And, second, does it work for us and our shared
	interests?
	Our adversaries have supersized their efforts, not only to
	best us on issues, but to hijack the whole platform. Exhibit A,
	the World Health Organization, which is misnamed, frankly,
	instead of ``World'' read ``Chinese,'' instead of ``Health''
	read ``Political,'' and as for ``Organization,'' it took over 1
	year to arrange a fact-finding trip to the Wuhan Laboratory
	while America produced three vaccines in warp speed time.
	Today our look at U.S. standing should not merely give
	itself over to foreign judgments on the United States. Rather,
	it needs to flag that our standing is only as good as the
	knowledge, skills, and abilities of Team USA in current times.
	The fact is, our best game against eroding U.S. standing in
	international organizations is a strong U.S. team on the field,
	U.S. delegates, U.S. citizens in the secretariats, and in
	leadership positions, such as the World Food Programme. This
	team has to be guided by dedicated D.C. policy leadership all
	having each other's backs.
	Alternatively, any game plan merely to take down our
	opponents is woeful. Alarmingly, I come to report to you that
	America's talent bench for mastering international organization
	politics has never been thinner. It needs emergency
	recruitment, training, and 24/7 policy guidance, not for 1945
	but for 2021. A major study on this issue will be released by
	the Center for Strategic and International Studies later this
	year.
	Regrettably, where I sit, the U.S. is abandoning leverage
	developed by the previous Administration. That it pressured for
	more accountability from U.N. programs in need of reform. An
	elaborate reform proposal shared widely by the U.S. with allies
	was ignored by WHO managers and apparently deep-sixed by the
	current Administration.
	Also, a major review of the Human Rights Commission is on
	the U.N. agenda this year. Whether reform is only possible if
	the U.S. is a member was disproven over many previous years of
	our membership in most world organizations. We shall see what
	the Administration plans, none of which has been put forward
	yet.
	Other policy reversals undertaken, such as resuming as a
	priority to the Joint Comprehensive Program of Action, likewise
	appear planless. The U.S. is serving this month as president of
	the Security Council, which would have provided every
	opportunity to set the agenda and work from the high ground.
	However, Vice President Harris last week opted to make her
	premier at the U.N. for a little than a victory lap and a pep
	talk at the Commission on the Status of Women. March was a
	missed opportunity for a Nikki Haley moment at the United
	Nations, one of focusing on U.N. accountability, instead of
	deleveraging hard-earned U.S. momentum there.
	In recent years, the Chinese Communist Party has surmised
	the U.N. as a supersized world trade organization opportunity,
	ripe for China's plundering, hijacking, and reprogramming to
	its authoritarian----
	Mr. Castro. Hello? Mr. Dugan, it looks like we may have
	lost you. I hope it is--I am assuming it is not just my
	internet. Let me see, we will take about 10 seconds to see if
	we can get him back. There you go.
	Mr. Dugan. All right. Am I back?
	Mr. Castro. You are, yes.
	Mr. Dugan. Thank you. I will resume, and I am almost
	finished.
	In recent years, the Chinese Communist Party has surmised
	the U.N. as a supersized world trade organization opportunity,
	ripe for China's plundering, hijacking, and reprogramming to
	its authoritarian, hegemonic ambitions. Throughout, Beijing is
	remaining Beijing. The rest of us are learning to suffer.
	China is now opting for open hostility in its dialog with
	us and others, as we saw this last weekend in Alaska. It is a
	wolf warrior diplomacy versus our U.N. Ambassador's self-styled
	gumbo diplomacy. Unless we strengthen our pots, is there any
	question who will be eating whose lunch in the U.N. cafeteria?
	In good form, the Biden Administration has said it would
	continue a tough-on-China stance. So job one for the U.S.
	mission to the U.N. is to organize like-minded States to face
	down the CCP's grab at the world order's dashboards and
	passwords.
	Another chore is the selection of the next U.N. Secretary
	General this year. A key test for Canada is managing the new
	moments of advancing authoritarianism upon the organization.
	The U.N. will need resilience to stem Russia's tactic to
	degrade and erode U.N. principles and even stronger resolve to
	counter China's game plan to superimpose its interests over
	those of the U.N. charter and eventually replace the spirit of
	openness with one of jealous authority.
	And, in closing, the U.S. has promoted U.S. values in
	force-multiplying ways at the U.N. and other international
	organizations. By standing and not sitting in international
	organizations, the U.S. must continue contributing to the
	liberal world order and further rise and champion others to
	defend it.
	Thank you very much.
	[The prepared statement of Mr. Dugan follows:]

	[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

	Mr. Castro. Thank you, Mr. Dugan, for your testimony.
	I will now recognize members for 5 minutes each. And
	pursuant to House Rules, all time yielded is for the purposes
	of questioning our witnesses.
	Because of the virtual format of this hearing, I will
	recognize members by committee seniority, alternating between
	majority and minority. And because it is a little harder to
	tell who is where on video, I may ask the staff to help me out.
	I can only call on you if you are present with your video
	on. So I know that there are a few members who have had their
	video off. If you all would please turn your video on now. If
	you miss your turn, please let our staff know, and we will
	circle back to you. If you seek recognition, you must unmute
	your microphone and address the chair verbally.
	And so I will now start our round of questioning by
	recognizing myself. So, you know, these issues that we have
	been talking about--and thank you, everybody, for your
	testimony. It was fascinating testimony from everyone. But the
	issues can seem sometimes arcane or esoteric, especially when
	we are discussing organizations that most people, including the
	American people, haven't heard of.
	And I would like to ask you to give us an example, and I
	will open it up to anyone, give us an example of how
	international organizations have had a concrete effect on our
	foreign policy, if we can give Americans a concrete example of
	that. And so, for example, has the election of a Chinese
	national to lead the International Telecommunication Union
	affected global policy toward 5G, cybersecurity, or emerging
	technologies? I welcome other examples as well.
	I point that one out because we have been talking about how
	engaged the United States should be in these international
	organizations, whether we should vie for leadership positions,
	for example. And so does not being at the leadership table, not
	being the leader, does that make a concrete difference? I open
	it up to the panel.
	Mr. Dugan. May I speak, please?
	Mr. Castro. Please.
	Mr. Dugan. Chairman, thank you very much for a very
	insightful question. Yes, it does matter who is in leadership
	positions throughout the organization, both among the
	delegations and certainly the leadership of the specialized
	agencies. As you have rightly described, the ITU is critically
	involved with monitoring and establishing norms and standards
	of telecommunications. 5G is central to that.
	There is an entire professional community that looks at
	this, too. The stakeholders throughout civil society are
	multiplying on this very issue. So while the ITU has a critical
	role to play, it must also learn how to involve all of these
	other non-State actors who have real skin in the game.
	So, yes, leadership in these organizations is going to have
	to be more accommodating of not just member States'
	participation but reaching out to the significant stakeholders
	and actors who in fact have a great deal of authority in these
	various functional areas, such as the ITU.
	I would like to point out, as Jordie mentioned earlier, the
	World Food Programme took the Nobel Prize this year, which was
	a remarkable accomplishment, for its work on stemming hunger,
	especially the use of hunger in war situations.
	The United States has always been the leading contributor;
	over 40 percent of the budget of the World Food Programme since
	its inception in 1960. And it has always had an American in its
	leadership position.
	The prior Administration placed the current leader, David
	Beasley there, and his efforts are what for the most part
	brought the attention of the Nobel Committee to recognize the
	World Food Programme.
	So to a great extent, the Nobel Prize Committee was
	recognizing America's ongoing contribution to a systemic
	problem of food shortage and the use of food as a weapon in the
	world over generations, and U.S. leadership that comes to the
	organization. The U.S. has always been--has always looked at
	these organizations that work well. And when they work well, we
	work well with them. When they do not work well, as major
	steward, we have to take the lead among our member State
	colleagues, to make them better.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you, Mr. Dugan. Let me see if the other--
	I know some of the other panelists I think may want to chime in
	as well.
	Mr. Hannum. Yes. Mr. Chairman, if I could just say, I mean,
	you raise a great point on kind of specialized agencies. And
	this is a key area where we have seen China gaining influence.
	They now head four U.N. specialized agencies, and we head one.
	And one can say quite confidently--like you brought up food,
	but one can say quite confidently that the head of the FAO is
	there because we were disengaged and not aligned with our
	allies.
	In addition, we know that a couple of years ago that
	because of cuts to State Department, IO Bureau, that the number
	of people working on getting Americans at the U.N. was cut to
	zero. We had five, and we went to zero.
	China makes a concerted effort to get their diplomats
	positions, so we need to be engaged.
	We certainly talk about the importance of paying arrears.
	And this year is incredibly important. There are nine positions
	for the head of specialized agencies coming up this year, and
	five on the agency programs and funds. You talked about the
	World Food Programme. It is a great example. But this is a key
	year for us to be engaged and demonstrated in a variety of
	different ways, as they talked about. But, you know, staffing
	up State Department, staffing up IO, and certainly supporting
	payment of our dues.
	Mr. Castro. Well, thank you. I have only got 20 seconds
	left. I do not know if Ms. McDougall or Ms. Otero wanted to
	chime in real quick.
	Ms. Otero. I would just say quickly that, from the
	perspective of multilateral organizations, they really are a
	continuum to our bilateral assistance and allow us to access
	the billions of dollars the multilateral agencies have in order
	to be able to influence the way that those resources are spent.
	China, as others have mentioned, is in there trying to
	influence these multilaterals as well and ensuring that those
	resources go for areas and for factors that increase their
	global power.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you.
	Okay. I am going to start the round of questions, moving on
	from myself. We will go to Ranking Member Malliotakis, please.
	Please.
	Ms. Malliotakis. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman, for--you
	know, there are so many questions I actually have, and I would
	love to speak at some point offline with those who are
	testifying today. But I want to focus my--I guess my question
	on the U.N. Human Rights Council, since that is something that
	is imminent and going to be approaching us rather shortly.
	Is there somebody else speaking there?
	Mr. Castro. Yes.
	Ms. Malliotakis. Oh.
	Mr. Castro. Darrell, your microphone is on. Can the staff
	mute Darrell's microphone? All right. I think you are clear.
	Ms. Malliotakis. Tell Darrell I am taking a minute of his
	time.
	So, you know, I just want to focus, since the United
	Nations is obviously--this is something that is imminent, and
	the President has already declared that he wants to reenter the
	United Nations Human Rights Council, you know, my concern is
	obviously this is an organization that has given some of the
	worst offenders of human rights a platform, including Nicolas
	Maduro, who spoke at the very first meeting of the UNSC--I
	mean, U.N. Human Rights Council.
	My question I guess is, what could we be doing to try to
	push the narrative and push our agenda to try to ensure that we
	are spreading, you know, freedom, democracy around the world.
	We want to protect human rights of these individuals, some of
	whom are members, member countries represented on the Council.
	How can we use reentry as leverage? And what advice would you
	have to try to address some of these human right violators?
	Mr. Dugan. If I may answer? Thank you very much for the
	good question. As I mentioned in my statement, there is a
	scheduled review of the Human Rights Council this year. It is
	done every 5 years, and it is part of the establishment of the
	Council.
	So the U.S. has an opportunity in the General Assembly,
	which is the world's parliament, to raise these issues in a
	very serious way with a look at holding HRC more accountable
	and perhaps passing resolutions to amend its means of doing
	business and going forward.
	Thank you.
	Ms. Otero. One issue that I would raise related to the
	Human Rights Council would be when I was Under Secretary of
	State, I participated as a representative of the U.S. in the
	Human Rights Council. And I noted that in--even though we have
	members in the Human Rights Council that are authoritarian and
	human rights violators, there are many other countries that are
	not.
	And we can form alliances, we can work closely with them,
	we can help channel the agenda that gets sent, and we can
	diminish some of those issues that are counter to our beliefs.
	And that allows us to also have a way in which we can develop
	relationships with organizations and seek a mutual path with
	our leadership.
	And when I was there, I remember doing this very clearly on
	certain issues that kept coming up at the Council for a vote.
	Ms. McDougall. Yes. If I can just get in a word here. I was
	on mute. I did not realize that. You know, I think that the
	first thing we do is be there, and be there with a sense of
	openness to hear all arguments and honesty, as I said in my
	testimony, but where else to form the kind of coalitions that
	can can push back on authoritarian regimes?
	As I mentioned, this coalition that has just been formed by
	the Biden Administration at the HRC of 155 governments. That is
	quite, you know, record-setting. So we have got to be there, we
	have got to listen, we have got to form those coalitions, and
	we--we have more interference on the line. And good work can be
	done that way.
	Ms. Malliotakis. Thank you. If I had time--at some point,
	Mr. Dugan, I would love to speak to you more about the WHO. And
	I am also a Seton Hall grad, by the way, so I look forward to
	speaking to you again in the future.
	Mr. Castro. Actually, Ranking Member, do you want to take
	an extra minute? Because I know you got interrupted at the
	beginning.
	Ms. Malliotakis. Okay. Thank you. Yes, we can take
	Darrell's time. That is right.
	Just, Mr. Dugan, you know, you mentioned the World Health
	Organization. I agree with your comments regarding that China
	has basically taken over this organization. Any other insight
	you could share with us on what--how we should be handling WHO
	going forward?
	Mr. Dugan. Unfortunately, we agreed to rejoin and are
	paying $200 million right now without establishing any
	consequences for bad behavior in the past. We have squandered,
	this just last couple of weeks, the opportunity and the
	leverage that was created by the previous administration, which
	in fact had put forward a very detailed reform proposal on what
	WHO needed to do, and publicized it widely among many of our
	allies, many of whom adopted it for their own, only to find the
	WHO ignoring it and giving us the cold shoulder throughout.
	So the Administration gave the WHO plenty of notice and
	warning and incentive to come to the table. They did not--they,
	in fact, stalled by not even having a trip to Wuhan. I think
	what we need to do right now, not just as an organization, but
	with the pandemic, is to take our mind off of the focus on why
	this thing evolved where it did and realize that the pandemic,
	the spread of the pandemic, is what we really need to address.
	There is no doubt that it spread from Wuhan. Whether it
	originated in the lab or nearby is academic. It spread from
	Wuhan, and that is undeniable, and we need to trace that and
	get more accountability for that. Whether the WHO is the actor
	to do that, I think it has not shown itself capable and we need
	to rally other resources in the world to do that for us.
	Thank you.
	Mr. Hannum. If I could just weigh in quickly here, I know
	there is not much time, but just because our organization does
	a lot with WHO. I would just like to say briefly that WHO had
	made mistakes, which they acknowledged. They welcome reform.
	There is an independent panel right now.
	But I do think it is clear to say there was not support for
	withdrawal. In fact, there was almost unanimous opposition to
	it. When it was announced, all of the major public health
	associations were against the move. So was the Chamber of
	Commerce. Even the Heritage Foundation announced its
	opposition.
	Last July, Senate Foreign Relations Committee held a
	hearing on WHO and pandemic preparedness. All four witnesses--
	the Republican choices and the Democratic choices--were
	unanimous in saying that the WHO's work was needed, of critical
	value, and there was no appetite for some alternative.
	Thank you.
	Mr. Castro. All right. Okay. Thank you.
	I will go next to the vice chair of our committee, Ms. Sara
	Jacobs.
	Ms. Jacobs. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to
	our witnesses for being here. I used to work in peacekeeping at
	the U.N. and at UNICEF, so I know the important work that the
	U.N. is doing, and I appreciate you talking about that with us
	today.
	Almost all of you mentioned in your testimony the need for
	reform, and while the U.N. is incredibly important, how
	important it is to make sure that we are reforming, so that it
	can actually address the challenges that we are facing. And I
	wanted to ask you about that.
	I think we have seen recent gridlock at the United Nations,
	for instance, just recently in the situation in Tigray, and it
	has become pretty difficult to envision the U.N. Security
	Council really being able to play the kind of constructive role
	in responding and mediating conflict that I think we all
	envisioned it to be.
	And so I think as we are in this new moment of U.S. global
	engagement, how can we seize on it for reform and maybe even
	move away from the traditional U.N. Security Council framework,
	which, as presently constructed, obviously has not done what we
	need it to in Tigray or in Sudan or even in helping mediate
	dialog in Syria and Afghanistan? And I would open it to any of
	the panelists for thoughts on that.
	Mr. Hannum. Congresswoman, one, thank you. Thank you for
	the question. And I would say a couple of things just in terms
	of reform. One, I do think it is important to say that the
	Secretary General, one of the reasons he kind of was chosen is
	that he has a track record on reform at UNHCR and made some
	real significant changes in terms of moving more operations
	into the field, reducing costs.
	Under his leadership, they have achieved gender parity,
	issued new whistleblower protections, pushed for annual
	budgets. And so they--he has made a couple of key reforms. I
	think it is also important to show that the record shows that
	when the U.S. is engaged, and that means kind of being a member
	in good standing, paying our dues, that we are much more able
	to achieve significant reforms. And I kind of talked about what
	former U.S.--U.N. Ambassador Madeleine Albright noted.
	But peacekeeping is a great example. A few years ago when
	the U.S. was engaged--this was during the Obama
	Administration--but they made real important changes in terms
	of field capabilities in turn that the missions would move more
	quickly, and also reducing costs, bringing the costs for a
	peacekeeper down by 18 percent, for example. But that was a
	time when we were fully engaged and paying up, and in general I
	think we are more likely to see significant changes.
	Human rights is another perfect example. This is a clear
	case where the U.S. absence, China and Russia are pushing a
	very different--very different narrative. And so we need to be
	engaged, and we need to be at the table, and then much more
	likely to advance our interests.
	Thanks.
	Mr. Dugan. May I also venture an answer? On reform, I
	think, as I mentioned in my statement, we need to reform our
	own capacity to manage, and we need to reform our bench of
	talent. We need to build expertise within the U.S. Government
	on U.N. matters.
	Over my 26 years or so at the Mission, I noticed a decline
	every year in our expertise. And it is not owned by any
	political party or personality. It is just a fact of life that
	we have not invested in how to manage effectively in
	multilateral organizations.
	It may be a function of our American reluctance to
	participate all together in foreign matters of these sorts, as
	George Washington warned us when he spoke. But the fact is that
	we need to invest in manpower that is not up there for 6 months
	or 2 years at a time and treats it as a trip abroad.
	The Russian ambassador--I am sorry, the Russian Foreign
	Minister Lavrov served three separate postings at New York in
	various stages of his career, up to Ambassador and now he is
	the foreign minister. That is true in many cases around the
	world where diplomats go on to become ministers, or they cycle
	out into other more important posts. And they have a keen
	understanding of a working ability about the U.N.'s properties
	and processes and politics, and our country has never invested
	in it that way.
	The State Department culture has never rewarded a
	multilateral officer's career development. It is seen as a
	place that was secondary, and we need to change our culture and
	invest in our manpower.
	Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. And my time has almost expired.
	Ms. McDougall. And if I can--sorry.
	Ms. Jacobs. Please. Quickly. Sorry, Mr. Chair.
	Ms. McDougall. If I can. I think it is really critical that
	the State Department and all of our faces abroad represent who
	we are as a Nation in terms of all of our diversity. And I
	think that that also highly improves our ability to function in
	very diverse circumstances and with what is a very diverse
	world, and to learn to set policies that are credible in those
	interactions.
	I know that there is a report--the Truman Report is about
	to come out on diversifying the personnel in State Department
	and upgrading the training, et cetera. But I think that is a
	critical point.
	And, again, I bring us back to our new Ambassador to the
	U.N. in New York and what is going to be her incredible ability
	to negotiate the many--not just cultures but the political
	values of different people around the world in a way that makes
	her even more effective than she would have been elsewhere.
	Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. And I will note our chair was a big
	part of that report and diversifying the State Department.
	Ms. McDougall. Yes.
	Ms. Jacobs. I have to give him credit for that, since I
	took extra time.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you all. All right.
	Let's go to Ms. Tenney----
	Ms. Tenney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
	Mr. Castro [continuing]. For her questions.
	Ms. Tenney. Thank you. It is a honor to serve with you, and
	thank you again for your work with me in helping the Rohingya
	people in Myanmar and Burma a couple of congresses ago. We did
	a special orders, and I am grateful to you for continuing to
	recognize that terrible situation.
	I have a district that is home to 4,000 Burmese refugees
	who are very active in the terrible situation going on in Burma
	with the military coup. So I thank you, and I appreciate the
	opportunity.
	Thank the ranking member for her questions. I think they
	are vitally important, to talk about the Human Rights Council
	and why the Biden Administration did not leverage its ability
	to get back in the Council by helping us on the American side.
	And also, thank you to the witnesses for your service and
	for being here in this important meeting.
	I guess a couple of questions have been addressed. I would
	like to talk a little bit--maybe, Mr. Dugan, since you have so
	much broad experience, and I do appreciate your comments--I was
	a former employee with the Yugoslav Consulate which existed
	many years ago, worked a lot with the mission to the U.N.
	through Yugoslavia. And so I got to see firsthand just how it
	works from another perspective, since I worked for a foreign
	consulate.
	But I just have a question about the value of the U.N. and
	how you view it. I mean, is, in your opinion, the United
	Nations a values-neutral institution? Or does it or should it
	stand for things like freedom and human rights? And do you
	believe China's growth poses a direct threat to the rules-based
	liberal order that underpins the U.N. system? And if you could
	comment on that, I would really appreciate it.
	Mr. Dugan. Thank you very much for your very thoughtful
	question. When we talk about U.N. reform, thankfully, nobody
	talks about reforming the U.N. charter. It stands as a model of
	principle, of purpose, of respect for freedom around the world,
	and for the promotion of prosperity, peace and security, and
	human rights.
	So, thankfully, the core principles of the U.N. are not in
	question. It is the manipulation of those principles which we
	have to worry about. And, once again, China has invested
	enormously since about--for about 15 or 20 years now in the
	U.N. It always ignored the U.N. It was afraid of the U.N.
	buying in too much and then having to let the U.N. into China
	to look at some other things that China does that it does not
	want the world to see.
	So it is always a very--I am against any type of
	intervention, and even though the intervention would reveal
	things such as you found with the Burmese situation, abuse of
	human rights, et cetera.
	So it is the manipulation of the charter, of the
	organization, and I refer you to almost the hijacking of the
	moral authority of this organization branded by China going
	forward that is of most concern to me.
	So, again, we need to develop our skillset. We need to be
	as bright and as hardworking and take the advantages that are
	due us up there. Congress has a special role in managing
	oversight in U.N. budget matters, since we are still the major
	contributor.
	Thank you.
	Ms. Tenney. Would you say that that--well, and then toward
	that, you know, the U.N. specialized agencies, you know, the
	United States, Britain, and France combined only lead four, yet
	China--the Chinese Communist Party actually leads four itself.
	And would you say that is the result of manipulation in the
	United Nations, or is that something that they achieved, you
	know, by some kind of Democratic principle to get there in that
	position?
	Mr. Dugan. Well, to be brief, they play by the rules and
	they play very well and very hard. As I said, they really did
	not give the U.N. much notion until about 15 or 20 years ago.
	So they have grown into their skin. They have an appropriate
	role. They are a large country. They make a big contribution.
	They represent millions and millions of people.
	So, yes, they are playing the game better and harder than
	we are; fairly, yes, by the letter, but not by the spirit.
	Ms. Tenney. Well, what you would you suggest we do as a
	nation to--sorry about that. I lost you. What would you say we
	do as a nation to combat that and to get in the game and to be
	the leader? Since we are supposed to be the beacon of freedom
	around the world to hold that order. What would your
	suggestion--I only have 40 seconds left, but I know Ms.
	McDougall wants to comment. But it is up to the chairman, so
	please comment if you will.
	Thank you.
	Ms. McDougall. Well, I take a bit--I am sorry.
	Mr. Dugan. Go ahead.
	Ms. McDougall. I am sorry.
	Ms. Tenney. I would love to hear from you both. It is up to
	the chairman.
	Mr. Castro. Please go ahead, both of you.
	Ms. McDougall. Go ahead, Mr. Dugan.
	Mr. Dugan. I just wanted to say that the previous
	administration established an office in the State Department
	called U.N. Integrity, which is--which has the writ of trying
	to address exactly what you are describing. It is an office
	that needs to be a bureau, and perhaps soon, as departments in
	the U.S. Government. We need to develop more resources and
	expertise, as I have mentioned a few times now, to quell the
	onslaught of authoritarian overtake of our liberal
	international order.
	Ms. Tenney. Thank you.
	Ms. McDougall, I think you----
	Ms. McDougall. Yes. I would just say that in terms--in
	terms of the human rights area, yes, you know, there are
	governments that have consistently put forward their views
	about human rights being culturally based and relative to
	various--to the voices of our colleagues. But they have always
	consistently been pushed back on those views by, you know,
	human rights bodies and individuals.
	And, you know, to the extent that there is concern about
	China and what violations in human rights have been done in
	Wuhan--I am sorry, in Xinjiang to the Uighur community, is the
	CERD--the committee that I sit on--that called that out, if you
	will, on the international stage and started the global
	publicity about it and condemnation about it.
	So there is as much pushback as there is, you know,
	positions being continuously put forward from their point of
	view. What we have got to maintain is that we have got a
	principle to push back that is, you know, in those rooms,
	sitting in those seats.
	Ms. Tenney. So you agree that--with Mr. Dugan that we could
	have an experienced, dedicated institutional voice in there to
	make sure that China is held accountable on human rights and
	other issues?
	Ms. McDougall. Absolutely. In this particular case, Mr.
	Dugan helped to run the campaign. They need that voice in that
	room in that seat to call China out about what was happening to
	the Uighurs.
	Ms. Tenney. Thank you so much. I know my time has expired.
	I really appreciate all of you.
	Mr. Castro. And Ms. Otero had something she wanted to add.
	And, you know, we have got a little bit of time here because,
	you know, we have time.
	Ms. Otero. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a very brief addition
	to this. I think it is really important to recognize that China
	is making the case that their system works better than a
	democratic system that is based on a market economy.
	This is enormously important. They are being vocal about
	that, and it is basically an argument that they are putting
	before the world and that they are using through agencies like
	the U.N. Our role is to be at that table and to argue that our
	system, our democratic values, the values of the United Nations
	charter are the ones that we must uphold.
	And this is an issue that spans many countries and the
	world. And so our effort to be able to form those alliances and
	create those coalitions and create what you would call
	situations of strength within the U.N. is one way in which we
	can really push back in not only a crucial way, but I would
	even say in an urgent way.
	Ms. Tenney. Thank you. Great. I appreciate that.
	Mr. Castro. All right. Representative Tenney asked the most
	popular question.
	Ms. Tenney. Thank you.
	[Laughter.]
	Mr. Castro. All right. We are going to go now to
	Representative Houlahan.
	Ms. Houlahan. Thank you, Chairman. And my question is
	actually for Ms. Otero and Mr. Hannum.
	I want to bring us back to 2017 when the United States
	cutoff funding for the UNFPA, the United Nations Population
	Fund, which of course supports reproductive health for women
	and girls around the world, along with implementing programs to
	help prevent child marriage, gender-based violence programs,
	female genital mutilation.
	I was hoping if we could start with Ms. Otero, if you could
	describe the impact that this has had on the UNFPA and its
	ability to protect the health of women and girls around the
	world, as well as against fighting practices like female
	genital mutilation and child marriage.
	Ms. Otero. Thank you for that question, a very important
	one, and one that I have worked in personally in my career.
	There is no question that the UNFPA works on the ground helping
	create the capacity of even the traditional birth attendants in
	Africa to be able to deliver maternal health, to deliver the
	kind of support that children need, in countries where
	malnutrition and lack of access to health is so prevalent.
	If our commitment is really to help this vulnerable
	population, especially women, and especially address women's
	not only health but also their ability because they are in good
	health, to be able to be educated and to be able to participate
	in their societies, then we really are not living up to the
	values that we propose.
	There is no question that some of the practices that are
	imposed on young girls and on women, like genital mutilation,
	in fact, more and more countries are seen as very problematic
	and very unacceptable, and it is through these institutions
	that we are able to move those arguments forward to instruct
	people to help educate.
	So cutting those resources directly affects the way which
	women around the world live, especially those that are among
	the poorest on the plant.
	Ms. Houlahan. Thank you, Ms. Otero.
	Mr. Hannum, would you be able to add any more color to
	this?
	Mr. Hannum. Yes. Let me just make three quick points. One,
	I think it is important just to again stress, you know, as you
	noted, that UNFPA as an organization, you know, seeks to help
	women safely deliver children each day.
	So as an example, in the large Za'atri Refugee Camp in
	Jordan, which I have been to, but UNFPA ran the maternity ward
	over a period of a few years. Ten thousand children were born,
	you know, without one maternal death. It is remarkable, and
	that is a program they used--the U.S. used to support but
	stopped.
	And actually, to put a finer point on that, it used to be
	when a new child was born, there would be a little sticker on
	the bassinet with the U.S. flag. You know, and think about what
	a lasting image that was for a new mother. And then the Trump
	Administration revoked our funding and, you know, they removed
	those stickers, so that is just one example of their work.
	You asked about impact of cuts. Let's look quickly at Yemen
	and Venezuela, obviously areas Congress has been focused on.
	But before 2017, the U.S. had been the second largest donor for
	UNFPA's emergency response there. The funding was used to help
	mothers access health care, supports violence, gender-based
	violence.
	In 2019, after another year of Trump Administration
	withholdings, this fund ran out of money in the middle of the
	year. And it is in places like these that, you know, UNFPA is
	leading the effort. It is not viable to switch to some other
	U.N. entity or other partners.
	And then, finally, just in terms of child marriage, female
	genital mutilation, you know, one can look at Central Sahel.
	Right now violence between armed groups has forced over 100
	health centers to close, and this disruption has been
	compounded by COVID-19.
	And as it stands, UNFPA's humanitarian operations there
	have only received 28 percent of 27 million that is needed for
	humanitarian assistance. And this is a region where 90 percent
	of women or girls have undergone female genital mutilation in
	Niger, which I have been to, about 75 percent of girls were
	married before age 18.
	So it is--you know, our resources could have made a
	difference, and so we would certainly welcome the decision to
	restore funding because it is desperately needed.
	Ms. Houlahan. Yes. And I look forward to reintroduction of
	legislation to allow and support that as well.
	And I know I only have 20 seconds, Mr. Chair. Am I able to
	ask one more question? Okay. Thank you.
	Mr. Castro. Of course.
	Ms. Houlahan. Thank you. And this is for Mr. Hannum as well
	regarding U.N. peacekeeping operations and the role that, of
	course, they play in stabilizing conflict zones.
	My specific interest is in women and what role and what
	else can be done with the U.N. to better integrate women into
	peacekeeping forces, and how can we, as a Nation, be helpful in
	supporting those initiatives and efforts and reforms.
	Mr. Hannum. Thank you. Yes. So, one, I would just say in
	peacekeeping in general, I do think it is important to know
	because there is a lot of talk, understandably, on Capitol Hill
	about challenges with peacekeeping. But it is important to
	remember that we now have two decades of data that shows that
	peacekeeping works. It saves lives and shortens conflicts.
	Across the board, you know, within peacekeeping operations
	in countries, the United Nations, there needs to be more, you
	know, women engaged. And this is something the U.S. called for
	in the Women, Peace, and Security Act, and I will say the U.N.
	is actually ahead of some other nations, chiefly the United
	States, in terms of having women engage. And there is data to
	show what that means. Women troops often are able to talk more
	with kind of local community, get information.
	So you have seen examples, and Liberia is a good example.
	We have been there, and a number of kind of women contingents,
	battalions, which make an important difference. But this needs
	to be increased because, again, the data shows the important
	benefits that come from it. And I think the Women, Peace, and
	the Security Act, which Congress passed, there needs to be an
	effort using that to increase the numbers, both here and within
	U.N. missions.
	Ms. Otero. If you permit me to add----
	Ms. Houlahan. Yes, ma'am.
	Ms. Otero [continuing]. Mr. Chair, I would only just focus
	on the fact that in areas of conflict, women, through gender-
	based violence, suffer the most. Raping women is a way of
	acquiring that territory, and this happens in all of the areas
	of conflict. I have visited and met with women in the Republic
	Congo, in areas where they can attest to not only this
	happening outside of the refugee camps where there would be a
	conflict, but also all around in the areas of conflict.
	So women are not only important as security and
	peacekeeping force part of that effort, but they are also the
	ones that are suffering the most. And gender-based violence is
	something that we absolutely have got to address in the
	strongest of ways through these institutions.
	Thank you.
	Mr. Castro. All right. I see----
	Ms. Houlahan. Thank you. I yield back.
	Mr. Castro. Oh, yes. Thank you, Ms. Houlahan.
	I see that Representative Issa is on, but his video is not
	on. And so I will wait for his video to come on before I call
	on him.
	In the meantime, let's start another quick second round.
	And, you know, every time we do a second round--if you have a
	question, please feel free to ask it. If you do not have a
	question, do not worry. Sometimes I have been on the dais and
	they say, ``Oh, we are going to do a second round,'' and then
	you feel like ``I have got to ask something.'' You know, if you
	have a question, you know, please, a question or two, feel
	free. If not, it is Okay. All right?
	But let me start with mine. And, again, when Darrell comes
	on, I will jump to him. All right?
	So I want to start with Ms. McDougall because I know that
	you work squarely on these issues. I want to ask a question
	about how we can use the United Nations and other international
	organizations to combat a lot of the challenges that we see
	here domestically. And chief among those, for example, is
	structural systemic racism in nations.
	And, obviously, while the dynamics in each country bury,
	the issue of structural racism is not something that is only
	particular to the United States. You know, we have also spoken
	about how we make issues like the rights of women, the rights
	of indigenous, the rights of workers; foreign affairs issues,
	how the United States can leverage its position in the
	international organizations to press these issues even more.
	So, you know, we can start with the structural racism
	issue, but then also consider the other issues. And then, Ms.
	McDougall, if you want to go first, and then we will open it
	up.
	Ms. McDougall. Okay. Well, I think that it is very
	important--and it is very important to people of color in this
	country--to understand that structural racism has a
	transnational component, and it is everywhere. And that the
	U.N. represents an ability to join the forces and the issues on
	structural racism and come out with solutions that can be
	offered, suggested, what have you, to all, primarily through
	the committee that I have sat on and will again hopefully, the
	U.N. Committee on Racial Discrimination.
	And there are also certain very useful occasions that have
	been hosted--organized and hosted by the United Nations like
	the Third World Conference Against Racism and the--this year--
	next year, sorry--this year, I believe, is the 20th
	anniversary. And there will be a number of gatherings and
	events around that.
	The U.N. really needs--I mean, the U.S. really needs to
	engage fully and vigorously with all of these efforts, because
	it States to other nations where there are now a tremendous
	number of, for example, African descendant populations, that
	the U.S. is actually on their side, and the U.S. needs to
	engage bilaterally with those countries about what we know
	about racism and solutions and what we know about the mistakes
	of trying to create solutions, and, you know, foster more
	exchanges of activist groups, of warriors, of advocates, from
	both countries.
	We have got--and we recognize it--a tremendous amount of
	knowledge, certainly a history of centuries of trying to, you
	know, approach this issue, one of the weightiest in America's
	history. And we are recognized in that regard.
	So, for instance, the statement that was just read by the
	U.S. and submitted to the 46th session of the Human Rights
	Council on countering racism. That was signed onto by 155
	countries. No other country could have achieved that.
	And so I think that what we need to do is to make it as
	much a part of our foreign policy as our domestic policy. But
	we have to be honest, and we have to be vigorous in both
	respects. So I think there are a lot of opportunities that have
	so far been missed by all administrations.
	And with leadership such as yourself in Congress, we might
	be able to do more in that regard.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you. Uh-huh?
	Mr. Hannum. Mr. Chairman, I would only add, since Professor
	McDougall is well more versed on these issues than I, but just
	one example I think of, you know, kind of the importance of
	some of these global bodies that we talked about and also our
	absence being a challenge.
	But, you know, in the last year, about a year ago, in the
	wake of George Floyd's death, you know, the U.N. Human Rights
	Council held a session on systemic racism and police violence,
	which was particularly important. Again, it is--you know, it
	[inaudible] of the Council's work. And it adopted a
	resolution calling for the High Commissioner for Human Rights
	to prepare a global report on the issue. And Human Rights
	Watch, other organizations, noted that this resolution was a
	step in the right direction, but also that it could have gone
	further.
	And I think this is an example of, you know, where if the
	U.S. had been there, just in general, when the U.S. is engaged,
	we can push the narrative. And so I think this is, again, an
	example why being part of the Council--and I would just say
	there have been a number of comments on the Council.
	I would just think it is important to say that we have now
	10 years of data to show that when the U.S. is engaged at the
	Council that it is much more likely to hold, you know,
	repressive regimes accountable and to push important reforms,
	whether it be--or important concepts that we believe in,
	whether it be LGBT issues, freedom of assembly, freedom of
	association. So the data is clear. We should be engaged.
	Thanks.
	Mr. Castro. All right, you all. Thank you all. I am going
	to go now to--it looks like Representative Issa got his camera
	on and everything, and we drove with him in the car for a
	minute, and now he is in his office. So, Darrell, please.
	Mr. Issa. Thank you. And I apologize. We all are
	multitasking, and on the West Coast I am afraid we are doing a
	lot of it.
	Two categories of questions. And the first one I think--
	during the last Administration, there was an attempt to
	partially consolidate our competition to the Belt and Road
	with, you know, recognizing that, you know, you have EXIM Bank,
	TDA, and USAID. You have a series of, both in and out of the
	State Department, agencies that are part of foreign
	development.
	I would love to hear your thoughts on whether or not that
	should go further if we are going to have a U.S. united ability
	to bring dollars and U.S. companies and the like into
	successfully competing--to help develop the world against what,
	you know, I think can only be said China's self-serving
	development program.
	Mr. Dugan. If I may answer that. Thank you very much for
	that very thoughtful question, Congressman. And, indeed, China
	has tried to masquerade its ambitions on Belt and Road by
	saying that they are fully in support and that they are
	tantamount to advancing the U.N.'s strategic development goals,
	which is very much the Bible of U.N. development these days.
	So they are undercover of advancing those goals. They are,
	in fact, enriching their own infrastructure project around the
	world.
	Since we speak of international organizations today, we
	should note the international financial institutions among
	them, and China still is represented within those and
	considered a developing country for the sake of receiving
	benefits and resources and benefits of the doubt all around. So
	they play back very well, as I described earlier. They play
	within the rules, and they play them very hard, maybe not
	within the spirit but within the letter of the law. And we need
	to call them out when we think that they are taking advantage
	of the largesse and goodwill of an international liberal order
	that is rules-based and that assumes the best in others.
	I think we discovered that WTO needs a great deal of reform
	as well. That is another organization that--and thanks to China
	driving a truck through the WTO, once they were allowed in,
	they decided to take that big truck and back it up to the U.N.
	and load it up for Beijing.
	So I quote understand your question, and, yes, we need to
	reevaluate their qualification as a developing country status
	within the international financial institutions. We should not
	be subsidizing this grand scheme of theirs.
	Thank you.
	Mr. Hannum. And, Congressman, I might just add one other
	point there, and I would just say I think there is already a
	model that we know which works, which is, you know, countering
	Russia during the cold war. And, you know, President--former
	President Reagan, you know, talked about kind of peace through
	strength.
	And so one of the things we need to do--you know, what
	China has done--is invested significantly in economic
	development, in diplomacy. And the U.S., you know, only spends
	about 1 percent of the Federal affairs budget on diplomacy and
	development. Of course, we need to use our dollars wise.
	But during the 1980's, we spent far more as a percentage of
	GDP on diplomacy and development than we do now. So that is
	what China is doing. We know it worked, and so we absolutely
	need to support additional resources for State and USAID to--
	you know, to compete.
	Mr. Issa. And I agree with that, and we will continue to
	push for that. But the question is more narrow. You know, the
	Chinese intervention around the world, and particularly in Sub-
	Saharan Africa, is not a gift. Their programs--their
	development programs are much closer to something akin to EXIM
	Bank, leveraged with maybe Trade and Development Agency,
	because they are bringing in their companies. As you know, they
	are bringing in their own workers even.
	And they end up, in many, many cases owning these assets.
	But in all cases, it is not really foreign aid in the sense of
	any kind of a gift. And that is where they are competing
	successfully against us.
	You know, I will just take one that most people do not
	think about. If they put in a telephone system in a developing
	nation, there is no question in anyone's mind that that is a
	conduit of espionage back to Beijing. They have full
	transparency as to the government and private sector operations
	as a result, and that is separate from the large bridges,
	roads, and port projects that most people see. But they work
	hand in hand, and those programs dwarf all of our programs
	combined.
	And I do not think the American people are ever going to
	give a trillion dollars in foreign aid, but the question is,
	can we and should we look at a program--and I will just call it
	a trillion dollars--in potential loans and projects that are
	self-funding in the long run. Should that be a goal? Because
	right now, during the last Administration, as you know, EXIM
	Bank was effectively shut down and we were out of even the
	small amount of competition we had historically done.
	Ms. Otero. If I could--thank you for that question, if I
	may proceed with it. There is no question that China is
	repeating all the benefits of the last few years of our
	withdrawal from working in these organizations and in these
	manners, and has moved forward with its own set of priorities,
	with its own efforts in trade, and with its own way of getting
	countries--giving countries support, the response of countries
	supporting them in their own priorities, such as, for example,
	when they wanted to head up the intellectual property rights
	organization, they wanted total support.
	I think we need to remember that working through
	multilateral organizations, such as the World Bank and the
	regional banks, allows us also to be able to work with
	organizations that are leveraging billions of dollars from the
	global capital markets. And they are channeling these resources
	directly to the private sectors of existing developing
	countries.
	Part of our role in this work, of course, is to be able to
	help increase the--if you will, the punching of these
	multilateral organizations in spite of the problems that they
	may have, and not really just rely on member contributions. The
	global capital markets are the big players in here, because we
	can access enormous resources if we bring them forward.
	They are part of the world financial system, one that we
	dominate, and this is one way which we can avoid thinking about
	having to put forth a trillion investment ourselves.
	We can work with other countries, and we have the
	structures. And it is interesting that the IFC at the World
	Bank or the IDB invest in the international--Inter-American
	Development Bank. If you look at the resources that they are
	making available, they are one way to counter what China is
	doing.
	Second, our trade in the introduction of U.S. companies
	into the developing world relies on us being present, being at
	the table, paying our dues, and being able to open the space
	for them to counter the threat that China is proposing and
	gaining ground on.
	Mr. Castro. All right, you all. Thank you.
	Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you. I am going to go to Ms. Omar, and
	then we will go to the ranking member, Ms. Malliotakis. Ms.
	Omar.
	Ms. Omar. Thank you, Chairman.
	Ms. McDougall?
	Ms. McDougall. Yes.
	Ms. Omar. Sorry if I pronounced your name wrong. I think
	that a lot of Americans are actually sometimes really shocked
	when they learn about the number of human rights conventions
	that the United States is not a party to. In the last Congress,
	I introduced a resolution calling on the Senate to ratify the
	U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child.
	We are the only country in the world to not have ratified
	that Convention, and there are many, many others that we
	haven't done so. What does this do to our credibility on human
	rights and asking other countries to abide by international
	obligations when we refuse to ratify these treaties and
	conventions ourselves?
	Ms. McDougall. Well, thank you for that question. You know,
	I think that it is a gaping hole in our credibility. We
	cannot--this is a system that actually the U.S., you know,
	initiated, as I said, through Eleanor Roosevelt.
	We very quickly decided that for reasons that I do not
	think most Americans know, nor would agree with if they did,
	that it did not serve all the purposes of structural racism
	actually in the country at the time that the decision was to
	not ratify most of these conventions.
	And as a result, it set up a system that hasn't allowed
	others through, such as the Convention on the Rights of the
	Child. I mean, who could be against that? We are the only ones
	that seem to be in the world.
	So, you know, I think that it is a--you know, it is a
	byproduct of a system in our country that has allowed--that has
	been created in many ways over a long period of time to protect
	those States that want to maintain structural rights for
	slavery and end structural racism. And so it has created power
	in the hands of a few.
	So the outcome is that, you know, in situations like the
	treaty system, which by and large operates in our favor across
	the board, why are we not part of the convention on the
	elimination of discrimination against women? What about the
	convention on the rights of disabled people that was very much
	modeled after our own widely popular national law?
	We need a total rethink in a different framework, a
	different maybe congressional framework----
	Ms. Omar. Right.
	Ms. McDougall [continuing]. For a decision as to how we
	enter these other treaties, human rights treaty systems.
	Ms. Omar. Yes. For the rights of the child, it was very
	fascinating to me because I was in Somalia, which was one of
	the last two countries besides us, and they ratified it in
	2016, and I was sent to celebrate that happening.
	And I remember sitting with our U.S. Ambassador, who was
	there and cheering this on, and who helped fund, you know, that
	campaign to make it happen, without us actually realizing that
	we ourselves have not participated in that.
	And then I wanted to maybe get your take on something that
	I think is a really good idea. I have been pleased to see that
	the Biden Administration is intending on reengaging with the
	U.N. Human Rights Council. I think that is the right thing to
	do.
	But the Council's detractors have a point, right? A lot of
	the countries that are a party to have appalling human rights
	records. And I am wondering what you think of our engagement
	and membership on the Human Rights Council to promote human
	rights.
	Ms. McDougall. Well, I am very much in favor of the Biden
	Administration reentering the Human Rights Council. It gives us
	an opportunity first of all to listen, to make sure we fully
	understand all of the arguments around the room, and then to
	make more informed choices, to form coalitions that we can work
	with, coalitions of other governments, that can maybe create
	better outcomes.
	But, I will tell you, you know, it is truly a dilemma, this
	question that the U.N. has had to tussle with for a long time.
	Is the worst outside or inside? Do you want them in a--you
	know, another dimension where they cannot hear what you have to
	say, or to be subject to whatever power you may coalesce
	against, you know, their practices, et cetera.
	I think it is a difficult decision. I think so far the U.N.
	has come down correct on the best possible side of that
	decision. But it does lend itself to--it is, you know,
	sometimes uncomfortable for, say, short-term outcomes.
	Ms. Omar. Thank you, Chairman. I would like to ask--when we
	do our second round, maybe I will get an opportunity to ask the
	other members the same questions.
	Mr. Hannum. And can I just--10 seconds, just one point
	there, Congresswoman, just to say in terms of the--in terms of
	engagement, what we have found is that countries--our
	adversaries are delighted when we are not part of the
	organization. They welcome--and there are examples, most
	notably Russia in 2016, where we helped mobilize countries to
	block them from joining. So we are much more likely to block
	countries with terrible track records by being engaged than
	not.
	Ms. Omar. Chairman, you are muted.
	Mr. Castro. Sorry. I saw Ms. Otero had her hand up, so I am
	going to go to her for a second. But after that, we are on our
	second round, so I am going to go to Representative Jacobs and
	then back to Representative Omar, unless somebody else has
	questions, other representatives.
	And then we are trying to close by noon Central--or, I am
	sorry, noon I guess Eastern. And so, you know, I am going to--
	do not think me rude, but I may keep people on time as we are
	answering these questions. OK?
	Ms. Otero, your final comment on this question.
	Ms. Otero. Thank you. Actually, my comment was on the
	previous question, if you would permit me----
	Mr. Castro. Yes.
	Ms. Otero [continuing]. About children. I would say that,
	if the American people had any idea of the conditions in which
	children live around the world, as they are laborers with
	incredible levels of exploitation, as they are trafficked for
	sexual and other things, as they are working in the mines in
	the Congo and in other places, as they are put in refugee
	camps.
	And I have been several times to Dadaab on the Somalian
	border and to the Rohingya Bank camps where it is full of
	children. If we had, there would be enormous outrage, as there
	was when families were separated from their children in our
	southern border.
	And the American people I think need to have more
	information about these factors, and we need to make sure that
	we are able to communicate because the goodness of the American
	people, the kindness of their spirit, the values that they give
	to family and to their own children, are factors that we need
	to be able to demonstrate and the way in which we interact with
	other countries and in the conventions that we sign and we do
	not sign.
	And so I think these are really important concerns that we
	also need to build into the way in which we project our
	country's efforts in the rest of the world.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Otero.
	All right, you all. So I think our final two questions will
	be Representative Jacobs and then Representative Omar, and then
	I will close. I would just ask everybody to be on the grid view
	and look at the 5-minute timer for these last two questions,
	all right, so that we can close on time.
	Representative Jacobs.
	Ms. Jacobs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
	So my question is for Ms. Otero and Mr. Hannum. I was
	wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you think
	the most important reforms would be to the United Nations,
	whether that is the Security Council reforms that I kind of
	mentioned in my previous questioning or otherwise. But in terms
	of really being able to address the kinds of challenges we are
	facing now, what you think the most impactful reforms might be.
	Ms. Otero. Please, Mr. Hannum, go ahead, since you live----
	Mr. Hannum. Sure.
	Ms. Otero [continuing]. And breathe it every day.
	Mr. Hannum. Yes. Happy to. Congresswoman, let me start I
	guess with an issue I think near and dear to your heart, which
	is around peace-building. I mean, this is something that the
	Secretary General feels very strongly about because there is
	just, of course, quite a bit of data about how much--you know,
	if you can invest in peace-building efforts, how much it saves
	you down the road.
	The problem is, as we all know, you know, people
	generally--it is hard to do kind of upstream efforts. It is
	kind of only--only when a crisis is coming that there is an
	impetus to do more. And so I think there--I mean, this is where
	I think U.S. engagement could be particularly important and,
	quite honestly, funding. And, I mean, again, the data shows how
	much an investment in peace-building would save down the line.
	So just looking at 2020, I mean, there is a peace-building
	fund which mobilized about $180 million. But those resources
	are now depleted and must be finished. So, one, of course, that
	is significant. But in the--you know, when we are talking about
	the 20 trillion that has been lost because of COVID, and how
	that has exacerbated extreme poverty, and you have seen the
	first increases in 20-plus years, there needs to be more
	investments along these lines. It is critically important.
	And then I would also say, just in terms of COVID--cannot
	talk in 2021 without talking about COVID--there has got to be
	U.S. and others mobilizing support around equitable vaccine
	distribution. I mean, everyone is talking about vaccines, but
	also many--a number of countries--I mean, we still need to make
	sure countries have personal protective equipment and
	therapeutics.
	And so there needs to be right now, you know, a coalition
	that comes together. Seventy-five countries haven't even gotten
	a single dose. We need to come together. The U.S. has begun
	this, which is welcome, but need to come together and support
	this. We know the economic returns, but the health and
	humanitarian reasons are there. So I would say kind of peace-
	building and then an all-hands-on-deck around COVID.
	Ms. Otero. I would only add to this that, you know, when we
	think about the U.N. writ large and we say, oh my gosh, you
	know, why should we put any resources in that; you know, it
	just goes into a black hole and we cannot really see them. In
	fact, these institutions that we have created and that have
	operated for 40 years or more do need reform, and reform does
	need resources.
	And I think it is very important to be able to take each
	piece of the organizations--for example, if you just use the
	U.N. High Commission on Refugees, and you look at what has
	happened to humanitarian aid, to displaced people, to refugees,
	just in the last few years, they have grown to be more than 80
	million people that are displaced around the world.
	How can we create reforms in the structure that we use to
	address humanitarian aid? It begins with the U.N.
	And so my suggestion is that we look at each arm of the
	United Nations, and we put resources into figuring out the best
	ways in which we can reform them. And it is easier to do this
	with those that are delivering services to the vulnerable and
	to all the populations around the world that need them. It is
	harder to do this with the U.N. Security Council, but also
	necessary.
	So I think we really need to think about reform as an
	activity that requires our leadership and resources from
	everywhere to be able to carry out.
	Mr. Dugan. If I may add, just briefly, on that. This year
	is the selection of the Secretary General. It is a wonderful
	opportunity for us to come forward with our vision of the
	organization, with our need for accountability as a management
	tool, and with our plans to beef up our team as----
	Mr. Castro. Mr. Dugan, I have to interrupt you. We are out
	of time in this question, and I have got to keep us on time, so
	that we finish by noon Eastern. But you want to make 5 seconds
	of closing remarks there on that question?
	Mr. Dugan. Yes, just to say that we have a unique
	opportunity this year with the selection of the Secretary
	General to broadcast what we expect and what we need from the
	organization and to commit our resources to creating a team
	that understands and works the organization well on the ground.
	Mr. Castro. Sure. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for those
	remarks.
	It looks like Congressman Issa is back on, and he has got--
	you have a question, Darrell, I assume? I think you are on
	mute. But, Darrell, I am going to keep everybody to the 5
	minutes.
	So, please, panelists and members, watch that 5-minute
	clock. Let's stick to the 5 minutes. So we will go with
	Representative Issa, then Representative Omar, our last
	questioning, and then I will close real quick and we will be
	done.
	All right. Representative Issa.
	Mr. Issa. Yes. I am trying to unmute.
	Mr. Castro. There you go. There you go.
	Mr. Issa. Excellent. Thank you. I want to followup on the
	80 million figure of refugees and asylum allocation. I do not
	think--I would be kidding you if I said that there was an
	interesting ambiguity going on right now at our southern
	border.
	We receive hundreds of thousands of applications for asylum
	every month from what is disproportionately found after the
	fact to be economic refugees, people seeking a better life at
	our southern border. Less than 5 percent of them will be
	granted asylum, but that will still dwarf the amount of asylums
	that--and/or refugee, you know, visas that will be granted to
	people in those tens of millions of refugee camps around the
	world.
	How would you propose that we right size or rectify the
	fact that these camps have become places that do not--people do
	not leave them as a percentage, they are becoming more and more
	permanent camps, and the world in general is taking--and
	including the U.S.--is taking a relatively small portion of
	these refugees, and their host--their former countries are in
	many cases, even after conflict, are not taking them back.
	How would you suggest that we make a major overhaul in what
	has become a very large and ever-growing problem of permanent
	refugees and the lack of asylum and refugee allocations by
	member countries of the United Nations, us included?
	Ms. Otero. Thank you, Congressman, for that incredibly
	complex and important question that I do not know if we can
	answer fully here. However, let me just add one thing. One is
	that, for example, if we look at our southern border, the
	countries that people are coming from are those countries that
	are the poorest, the ones that offer the least opportunities
	for people, but are also the ones that are mired in violence
	and in corruption.
	So you might think you have an economic refugee. But if
	that economic refugee is one who is in his or her little place,
	has a tiny little business, that then has to pay a weekly
	amount to someone that is threatening them to do that, or a
	child is----
	Mr. Issa. I apologize. I wasn't implying that. I was simply
	using the ratio that our courts have found of those who come
	versus those who are granted. And the bigger question, which is
	these countries do not have, for the most part, those 80
	million people that are in refugee camps that are becoming
	permanent.
	I am not disagreeing that we have a problem south of our
	border and that we need to engage. I am simply saying that that
	is getting the focus of the media, both here and around the
	world, this permanent problem. I visited the camps in Jordan,
	in Lebanon, and, you know, some of them dating back to 1948,
	others more recent. And as I have seen these grow, I have
	become concerned that we have gotten good at allocating
	resources to refugees but not very good at finding solutions to
	their status.
	Ms. Otero. Just to add to that, there is no question that
	one of the reasons that these camps have a protracted presence
	in them is because conflict continues. Somalia is a perfectly
	good example. Dadaab Camp between Kenya and Somalia is the
	second largest city in Kenya. However, the Somalians, their
	country is still in upheaval and have nowhere to be able to go.
	And so you are right, Congressman, there are these
	situations, and I have meant people in refugees camps that were
	born in refugee camps and that have lived and learned what they
	could there. So I do think that those camps reflect the
	enormous displacement caused by conflict around the world. And,
	again, this is one of the areas that is so connected to the
	role that we play in developing countries and in the overall
	global scene.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you. All right. Thank you.
	Mr. Issa. I want to--I will just quickly in closing say,
	you know, some of the camps I visited--the camps that have been
	there since the 1940's--reflect the fact that it is not about
	one Administration. I do think that this committee needs to
	take a look at the permanent refugee status around the world
	and to help develop a plan to change that.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you. Thank you, Congressman Issa.
	And then our final question from Congresswoman Omar.
	Ms. Omar. Well, first of all, I would like to thank
	Congressman Issa for that question. I and my family sat in a
	refugee camp in Kenya called Utango that is closed now for 4
	years waiting for asylum. I was one of the very fortunate ones
	to have gotten that.
	I did go back in 2016, 2011, to the Somali-Kenyan border
	and was in the Dadaab and remember seeing young people who were
	in that Utango camp with me who did not get to relocate and
	start--get an opportunity to get asylum elsewhere but went back
	into another refugee camp. And they--as I have had children,
	had an opportunity here in the United States, got an education,
	they have lived in that camp and have had their children in
	those refugee camps.
	And so, yes, we do have a responsibility and should have a
	conversation. It was devastating to watch the last 4 years our
	numbers of admitting refugees dwindle to like 18,000, so I am
	delighted to hear that we might go up to 125,000. So that is
	part of our responsibility, and I do hope the Congressmen will
	join us in advocating for those increased numbers.
	But I wanted to go back to Ms. McDougall. Earlier you
	mentioned something in regards to racial justice, and I know
	that a lot of activists in the United States, from Malcolm X to
	Puerto Rican independent activists, have drawn on the U.N.
	system and human rights in their own struggles here at home.
	What do you see as the relationship between the international
	community and our struggle for racial justice here?
	Ms. McDougall. Well, I think it is, first and foremost, a
	continuing inspiration. And it leads people, as it lead me to
	believe when I was young and growing up in Jim Crow south, that
	out in the international community there are different rules,
	rules about equality.
	And as W.E.B. Du Bois saw the U.N and said, ``This is going
	to create new forums for African Americans to plead their case
	for equality.'' I think our challenge is to make sure it is
	that, in fact, and that is why I do the work that I have done
	with the Racism Committee, Anti-Racism Committee, and as a
	special rapporteur on minorities around the world.
	Are we living up to these hopes of being the--of speaking
	to and supporting the claims for equality of people, not only
	black people in the United States but minorities around the
	world? That is our responsibility, and we have got to
	constantly question if the U.N. is fit for that purpose.
	Ms. Omar. Appreciate that. Thank you, Chairman. I yield
	back.
	Mr. Castro. Thank you, Congresswoman Omar. And thank you to
	our witnesses for your testimony, and to our Members of
	Congress for all of your questions.
	I have just some closing remarks real quick, and then we
	will conclude. You know, after today's testimony, it should be
	clearer than ever to this Congress that international
	organizations and our participation in them play an
	indispensable role in advancing American values and defending
	American interests.
	We were instrumental in the creation of these institutions
	of the international order. We must be just as instrumental in
	leading them through the 21st century. And it is also clear
	that if we do not, other nations will, to our detriment and I
	believe to the detriment of the world.
	Working through international organizations, even when
	acting alone might be quicker or more advantageous in the short
	term, will make our global leadership stronger and more
	impactful in the long run.
	And with that, I want to say again thank you to all of our
	very distinguished panelists, our witnesses, to the Members of
	Congress who participated.
	We are adjourned. Thank you all. Take care, everybody.
	[Whereupon, at 12:02 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

	APPENDIX

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