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+
+ - SUDAN AT THE CROSSROADS
+
+[House Hearing, 112 Congress]
+[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
+
+
+
+ SUDAN AT THE CROSSROADS
+
+=======================================================================
+
+ BRIEFING
+
+ BEFORE THE
+
+ COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
+ HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
+
+ ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS
+
+ FIRST SESSION
+
+ __________
+
+ JANUARY 18, 2011
+
+ __________
+
+ Serial No. 112-1
+
+ __________
+
+ Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
+
+
+ Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/
+
+ ______
+
+
+
+ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
+64-007 WASHINGTON : 2011
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
+For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office,
+http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center, U.S. Government Printing Office. Phone 202�09512�091800, or 866�09512�091800 (toll-free). E-mail, [email protected].
+
+ COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
+
+ ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida, Chairman
+CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
+DAN BURTON, Indiana GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York
+ELTON GALLEGLY, California ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American
+DANA ROHRABACHER, California Samoa
+DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey
+EDWARD R. ROYCE, California BRAD SHERMAN, California
+STEVE CHABOT, Ohio ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
+RON PAUL, Texas GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
+MIKE PENCE, Indiana RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri
+JOE WILSON, South Carolina ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
+CONNIE MACK, Florida GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
+JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
+MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas DENNIS CARDOZA, California
+TED POE, Texas BEN CHANDLER, Kentucky
+GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
+JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut
+BILL JOHNSON, Ohio FREDERICA WILSON, Florida
+DAVID RIVERA, Florida KAREN BASS, California
+MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
+TIM GRIFFIN, Arkansas DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
+TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania VACANT
+JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina
+ANN MARIE BUERKLE, New York
+RENEE ELLMERS, North Carolina
+VACANT
+ Yleem D.S. Poblete, Staff Director
+ Richard J. Kessler, Democratic Staff Director
+
+
+ C O N T E N T S
+
+ ----------
+ Page
+
+ BRIEFERS
+
+The Honorable Princeton Lyman, special advisor for Sudan, U.S.
+ Department of State............................................ 10
+The Honorable Richard S. Williamson, partner, Salisbury
+ Strategies, LLC (former Special Envoy to Sudan and Ambassador
+ to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights)........................ 33
+Mr. Omer Ismail, advisor, The Enough Project..................... 42
+
+ LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE BRIEFING
+
+The Honorable Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Representative in Congress
+ from the State of Florida, and chairman, Committee on Foreign
+ Affairs: Prepared statement.................................... 4
+The Honorable Princeton Lyman: Prepared statement................ 15
+The Honorable Richard S. Williamson: Prepared statement.......... 35
+Mr. Omer Ismail: Prepared statement.............................. 44
+
+ APPENDIX
+
+Briefing notice.................................................. 58
+Briefing minutes................................................. 59
+The Honorable Donald M. Payne, a Representative in Congress from
+ the State of New Jersey: Prepared statement.................... 61
+
+
+ SUDAN AT THE CROSSROADS
+
+ ----------
+
+
+ TUESDAY, JANUARY 18, 2011
+
+ House of Representatives,
+ Committee on Foreign Affairs,
+ Washington, DC.
+ The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:30 p.m., in
+room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ileana Ros-
+Lehtinen (chairman of the committee) presiding.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. The briefing will come to order.
+ Good afternoon. After my opening remarks and those of my
+good friend, Mr. Berman, the ranking member of the committee, I
+will recognize the chairman-designate and the ranking member-
+designate of the Africa, Global Health, and Human Rights
+Subcommittee, Mr. Smith, on our side, and Mr. Payne, for 3
+minutes each.
+ We will then move to our panelists' presentations, followed
+by questioning by the members-designate on the Committee on
+Foreign Affairs--and I use that phrase because we are not
+formally organized yet--for 5 minutes each, followed by 5
+minutes each for any other member who would like to ask
+questions of our panelists.
+ I appreciate the understanding and cooperation of our
+colleagues and look forward to today's discussion.
+ Before we begin, I would like to express what an honor is
+it to assume the responsibilities of chairman of the House
+Committee on Foreign Affairs.
+ For the Members who will be joining the committee upon
+organization, please know that I do not take those
+responsibilities lightly. During the 112th Congress, this
+committee will be confronted with some of the most pressing
+national security and foreign policy challenges of our time,
+from ensuring rigorous enforcement of sanctions against Iran,
+to providing effective stewardship of American taxpayer dollars
+in foreign aid and State Department programs, to instituting
+systems for accountability at the United Nations. I fully
+intend to work with all members of the committee and the
+American people to confront these challenges directly,
+responsibly and effectively.
+ It is therefore fitting that the first Members' briefing
+hosted by this committee would be focused on Sudan. Today,
+Sudan is truly at the crossroads. Beginning on January 9th,
+millions of South Sudanese participated in a historic
+referendum to determine whether Africa's largest country would
+remain united or split in two. Given the countless delays,
+manipulations and violent eruptions that have imperiled
+implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement for Sudan
+over these past 6 years, many doubted that this day would come.
+Yet the vote proceeded peacefully and credibly.
+ After decades of repression by a genocidal regime in
+Khartoum and a war that left over 2 million people dead and 4
+million people displaced, the people of South Sudan may at last
+have realized their right to self-determination.
+ Unfortunately, the hardest work is yet to come. First, the
+results must be certified and accepted. Though Khartoum has
+pledged to accept the outcome, it has a long history of
+reneging on its commitments. The stakes are high, and both
+sides have spent the past 6 years preparing for war.
+ Second, outstanding issues relating to the implementation
+of the CPA must be resolved prior to conclusion of the
+transition period in July 2011, including the demarcation of
+the border; citizenship and nationality; wealth sharing and
+resource management, including for oil and water; division of
+assets and debt; currency; and security arrangements.
+ Third, the future status of the oil-rich Abyei region must
+be resolved fairly and in a transparent manner. Abyei is a lit
+match in a pool of gasoline, and continued failure to resolve
+its status all but guarantees war.
+ Likewise, the popular consultations in Southern Kordofan
+and Blue Nile must proceed in a manner that legitimately
+addresses longstanding grievances. These areas are awash with
+weapons, and tensions are high. A single security incident
+could set the entire region ablaze.
+ Finally, we must not trade peace in Darfur for independence
+in the South. Regrettably, it appears the administration may
+have forgotten key lessons from the past. Prior U.S. efforts to
+reward the Sudanese regime for signing peace agreements and
+acceding to the deployment of peacekeepers while the regime
+simultaneously supported genocide in Darfur, blocked
+humanitarian access, and stalled implementation of the CPA were
+broadly condemned.
+ In the words of then-Senator Barack Obama in April 2008,
+and I quote,
+
+ ``I am deeply concerned by reports that the Bush
+ administration is negotiating a normalization of
+ relations with the Government of Sudan. This reckless
+ and cynical initiative would reward a regime in
+ Khartoum that has a record of failing to live up to its
+ commitments.''
+
+ Yet the Obama administration is following the same
+misguided concessions-driven path. I do not intend to minimize
+what has been accomplished inside Sudan. Delivering a timely
+credible referendum was an incredibly hard task. But, again,
+the referendum is just the start.
+ The true test of the regime's commitment will extend far
+beyond the July 2011 date, and far beyond South Sudan. Thus, I
+am deeply troubled by the premature efforts to advance
+normalization, sanctions relief, and debt relief. The bulk of
+sanctions mandated by Congress are linked to peace in South
+Sudan and in Darfur. Given recent developments in Darfur, the
+certification requirements for easing sanctions cannot be met.
+ I am particularly concerned by suggestions that the
+administration may remove Sudan from the State Sponsors of
+Terrorism List by July 2011. Removal from this list is not a
+``gold star'' that can be offered to advance an unrelated
+political objective. This is a serious matter with
+repercussions that directly impact our most vital national
+security interests.
+ Recall that the previous administration delisted North
+Korea in exchange for nominal concessions relating to one
+nuclear facility. Almost immediately upon winning this prize,
+North Korea reneged on its promise to implement a transparent
+verification regime, withdrew from the Six-Party Talks, and
+brazenly resumed its proliferation activities. Today, North
+Korea reportedly possesses one or more highly sophisticated
+uranium enrichment facilities and, according to the United
+Nations, is supplying Iran, Syria, and Burma with nuclear and
+ballistic missile related equipment. The U.S. must proceed with
+extreme caution in our dealings with the Sudanese regime.
+ The potential birth of a new nation in South Sudan is truly
+momentous and will have significant ramifications beyond the
+region. The United States has played a major role in bringing
+the parties to this point, and it is in our national interest
+to see that the process advances peacefully.
+ The risks are high. The challenges are daunting. But the
+achievement of peace in a region ravaged by war is an honorable
+endeavor. I welcome the opportunity to work with the
+administration and responsible partners for peace in Sudan
+toward this end.
+ I now turn to our ranking member, Mr. Berman, for his
+opening remarks.
+ [The prepared statement of Chairman Ros-Lehtinen follows:]
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+ Mr. Berman. Well, thank you, Madam Chairman. And thank you
+very much for calling this timely briefing.
+ I want to begin by congratulating you on your new position
+as chairman.
+ I would also like to congratulate the new subcommittee
+chairs.
+ And I really do look forward to working with all of you in
+the 112th Congress.
+ And at the outset, I would also like to commend the Africa
+Subcommittee Ranking Member Donald Payne and other members on
+both sides of the aisle for their leadership on Sudan,
+especially their efforts to focus the world's attention on the
+unspeakable atrocities committed by the Khartoum regime against
+the people of South Sudan and Darfur.
+ Their work on these critical issues inspired two major
+pieces of legislation, the Comprehensive Peace in Sudan Act of
+2004 and the Darfur Peace and Accountability Act of 2006, along
+with a number of resolutions condemning the regime for crimes
+against humanity.
+ Madam Chairman, this past week marked a historic moment for
+the people of South Sudan who fought a 22-year civil war to
+arrive at this moment of self-determination. While we do not
+know the official results of the referendum, it is clear that
+the vote will almost certainly result in independence for the
+South.
+ And as we consider this milestone, it is important that we
+remember the late President John Garang Mabior, who led the
+Sudan People's Liberation Movement and Army through the long
+civil war, a terrible conflict that resulted in the deaths of
+over 2 million South Sudanese and the displacement of millions
+more. Before his tragic death in a helicopter crash in July
+2005, Garang negotiated the Comprehensive Peace Agreement with
+Khartoum. That agreement provided for the referendum and other
+events we will examine today.
+ After his election in 2008, President Obama undertook a
+bolder view of U.S. policy toward Sudan and set out a new
+vision focused on intensive diplomacy. This new strategy
+required significant changes in behavior by the Khartoum
+government. It demanded verifiable progress toward a settlement
+between the North and South, as well as progress in Darfur.
+ The President's new approach was met with great skepticism
+by many of us in Congress and the advocacy community in part
+because it required direct engagement with a Sudanese
+Government that had committed genocide and other gross
+violations of human rights.
+ To carry out the new policy, President Obama appointed
+retired Air Force General Gration as special envoy to Sudan.
+Gration, the son of missionaries who was raised in Congo,
+assembled a team and developed a diplomatic strategy to realize
+the President's vision.
+ Our first witness today, Ambassador Princeton Lyman, also
+deserves great credit for his diplomatic efforts to complete
+the roadmap that helped deliver Khartoum's final cooperation on
+the CPA and the referendum.
+ Today we can see the results of the Obama administration's
+hard work. The voting for the referendum has taken place
+peacefully, and a major goal of the Comprehensive Peace
+Agreement has been achieved.
+ There are, of course, many, as the chairman said earlier,
+many outstanding issues to resolve before independence is
+finalized in July. A referendum on the status of the oil
+producing Abyei region has yet to take place. An agreement
+needs to be reached on the sharing of oil revenue, the division
+of national debt, the delineation of borders.
+ There is also the thorny issue of citizenship. Should the
+South vote to form a new independent state, there are fears
+that southerners in the North and northerners in the South
+could be left stateless and vulnerable to political violence.
+ Finally, there is the crucial issue of peace in Darfur
+which still eludes us today. We must not forget the enumerable
+atrocities that have taken place in that region of Sudan. In
+2004, Congress and the Bush administration declared that the
+events in Darfur constituted genocide. And in 2008, the
+International Criminal Court indicted Sudanese President Omar
+Hassan al-Bashir on three counts of genocide, five counts of
+crimes against humanity, and two counts of murder.
+ I am encouraged that President Obama has remained focused
+on Darfur and intends to revive the stalled negotiations
+between Khartoum and the rebel groups in Darfur.
+ The people of South Sudan have taken a major step toward
+self-determination, but there are many difficulties ahead. The
+new nation will face a large number of challenges, from
+building the basic institutions of statehood to economic
+development to the reintegration of the returnees. And by all
+accounts, there is very little capacity in South Sudan to meet
+these daunting challenges. If South Sudan is to flourish, then
+the United States, the United Nations and other members of the
+international community must continue to assist the people of
+that nation in their transition to independence and democratic
+rule.
+ In this context, it is important to recognize the Herculean
+efforts of the United Nations Development Programme to help
+make the referendum a reality. The UNDP supported voter
+education, delivered ballots for more than 4 million voters on
+schedule and helped to establish and equip nearly 3,000
+registration centers and trained over 8,000 staff to manage
+those centers. These efforts and the efforts of U.N.
+peacekeepers in South Sudan underscore the extent to which the
+U.N.'s work can support U.S. foreign policy interests and
+contribute to international peace and security.
+ Madam Chairman, we would not be where we are today in South
+Sudan without hard-nosed American diplomacy, the active
+involvement of the United Nations, and targeted U.S. foreign
+assistance programs. I look forward to the testimony of our
+witnesses.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you, Mr. Berman.
+ I would like to recognize for 3 minutes the chairman-
+designate of the Africa, Global Health, and Human Rights
+Subcommittee, Mr. Smith of New Jersey.
+ Mr. Smith of New Jersey. Madam Chair, thank you very much.
+ And I want to begin by joining the ranking member, Mr.
+Berman, in congratulating you on assuming the chairmanship of
+this very important committee, particularly at this very
+difficult time around the world.
+ There are crises everywhere, and we look forward to, all of
+us on this side of the aisle and I am sure on the other side of
+the aisle as well, in working with you and finding tangible
+solutions to the many vexing problems we face.
+ So congratulations, Madam Chair.
+ I also want to thank you for calling this extremely timely
+and important briefing to examine the historic events occurring
+in Sudan. I congratulate the Southern Sudanese people and join
+in in celebrating the completion of the referendum on the
+future status of their country. The U.N. monitoring panel of
+the referendum's assessment that the process was well organized
+and credible is particularly commendable given the serious time
+and resource constraints that preceded it.
+ However, the voting last week marked over the beginning of
+what promises to be a long process fraught with peril. It will
+take several weeks for the votes to be transmitted from the
+nearly 3,000 referendum centers to county and state levels and
+on to Juba and Khartoum before the official results are
+announced.
+ If the South has voted for secession, as is widely
+believed, then numerous complicated and potentially volatile
+issues remain to be resolved. Among the most prominent of these
+issues is the demarcation of the border, including the division
+of the Abyei region with its oil reserves and fertile land. The
+sharing of oil reserves as well as debt and the question of
+citizenship are some of the other major challenges still to be
+addressed. And the establishment of a permanent peace in Darfur
+remains a critical but elusive goal as violence intensifies
+despite the current talks in Doha.
+ I personally am concerned about the return of reportedly
+large numbers of southerners residing in the North to the
+South. I was informed during a hearing in September that
+humanitarian agencies at that time were not prepared to handle
+mass movements in Sudan. Unless this assessment has changed,
+such movements could lead to a severe humanitarian crisis and
+have a destabilizing security impact on the South.
+ Those southerners who remain in the North against their
+will is another deeply troubling concern. Beginning in the
+1980s, Arab militias armed by the Khartoum regime conducted
+slave raids in the South, taking mostly women and children to
+the North to serve as labor and sex slaves. The 2005
+Comprehensive Peace Agreement failed to address this issue, and
+an estimated 35,000 southerners remain in the North in a state
+of forced servitude. This grave human rights issue must be
+acknowledged as a priority and the freedom of all slaves
+immediately secured.
+ Finally, I look forward to hearing the briefers' views as
+to what the impact the referendum will have on the North, again
+assuming a vote for independence. The Government of Sudan, to
+its credit, allowed the referendum to proceed and has publicly
+stated that it will respect the outcome. But given its abysmal
+track record, it is not a basis for optimism.
+ I thank you, Madam Chair.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you, Mr. Smith.
+ I would like to recognize for 3 minutes the ranking member-
+designate of the Africa, Global Health, and Human Rights
+Subcommittee, Mr. Payne.
+ Mr. Payne. Thank you very much.
+ And let me commend you for your ascension to the chair of
+this committee.
+ Mr. Berman.
+ And let me thank you for holding this very critical meeting
+on Sudan being the first hearing, and I think it is
+appropriate.
+ Let me also express my deep appreciation to the witnesses,
+who are certainly among the most knowledgeable people on Sudan:
+Ambassador Lyman, who did a great job in Nigeria and South
+Africa during critical times; Special Envoy Williamson with the
+State Department and U.N. posts, who was a great envoy to
+Sudan; and Mr. Ismail, who fled from Darfur and has been a
+great advocate for justice.
+ Let me thank all of you for your commitment and self-
+determination to make this day a reality. Today Sudan is indeed
+at the crossroads. A week-long referendum has just concluded.
+And by all accounts, the outcome is clear that the people of
+South Sudan have chosen independence.
+ My friends on the ground during the voting process have
+relayed stories of remarkable moments that illustrate the hope
+and excitement that lies in the heart of the South Sudanese. A
+policeman, after voting, looked around and told people in line,
+``I crossed the river, come join me.'' A pregnant woman while
+in line to vote gave birth and was later able to cast her vote
+for the sake of her new baby.
+ As I reflect on the 20 years that I have been working with
+Sudan, I remember many pivotal moments, moments of my own and
+the Congress' struggle to see the people of South Sudan
+exercise their right of self-determination. I recall my first
+visit in 1993 to Nimule, a town near the Ugandan border, which
+was the frontline of the struggle back then, helped mediate
+negotiations between two factions of the SPLM. It was then that
+I first met Dr. John Garang in the bush, father of South
+Sudan's quest for autonomy, as well as a young military
+commander, Salva Kiir, who was there at his side, who is now
+the President of the Government of South Sudan. Upon returning
+from that trip, I, along with other members, introduced a
+resolution in the House calling for the right of self-
+determination for the people of South Sudan, and it passed this
+body.
+ I recall over a dozen visits to South Sudan and the Darfur
+refugee camps in Chad and with Representatives Lee and Wolf and
+Tancredo, along with Senator Feingold, Senator Frist, Senator
+Brownback, all dedicated members of this institution at the
+time. After one such visit in 2004, I sponsored a resolution to
+call the world's attention to the atrocities in Darfur which
+passed the House overwhelmingly, the first time that the
+Congress recognized ongoing genocide while it was going on.
+ I recall visits to Nairobi and Naivasha in 2004 and 2005
+with IGAD and a negotiation that culminated in the signing of
+the CPA on January 9, 2005, in Nairobi where I witnessed that.
+ I will ask that the rest of my statement be added to the
+record since the gavel has been hit.
+ But I do agree that the Abyei, I believe, should be solved
+before sanctions are released. We see what has happened in
+India with Kashmir still a question. We don't want Abyei to be
+a question 20 years from now with fighting going on. Thank you,
+and I yield.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much.
+ As the new members will know, it is embarrassing to gavel
+down the gentlemen from New Jersey--and both gentlemen from New
+Jersey, because they are the leading experts when it comes to
+Africa.
+ So we are well-served by having Chairman and Ranking Member
+Smith and Payne with us.
+ I am sorry, gentlemen, for the time restraints.
+ As Mr. Payne said, we are very privileged to have two
+distinguished panels before us today. I know everyone is
+anxious to hear what they have to say. They are the experts. So
+I will only offer brief introductions and encourage members to
+read their biographies in full in your packet.
+ We will begin with Ambassador Princeton Lyman, who has just
+returned from observing the referendum process in Sudan. The
+Ambassador was appointed by Secretary Clinton in August 2010 to
+lead the U.S. Negotiation Support Unit in Sudan. Prior to his
+appointment, he was serving as an adjunct senior fellow for
+Africa Policy Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations and
+as an adjunct professor at Georgetown. He has a long,
+distinguished career in government service, including postings
+as deputy assistant secretary of state for Africa, U.S.
+Ambassador to Nigeria and South Africa, and assistant secretary
+of state for international organization affairs.
+ The Ambassador has a Ph.D. in political science from
+Harvard University and has published numerous books and
+articles on foreign policy, African affairs, economic
+development, HIV/AIDS, U.N. reform and peacekeeping.
+ Ambassador Lyman, the floor is yours. Thank you, sir.
+
+STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE PRINCETON LYMAN, SPECIAL ADVISOR FOR
+ SUDAN, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
+
+ Ambassador Lyman. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.
+ Thank you and the members, ranking member, Congressman
+Berman, and all the members here for holding this hearing and
+making this one of the very first issues of your chairmanship
+and of the committee this year.
+ As you said, this is a terribly important issue. I recall
+Prime Minister Meles at the U.N. meeting on Sudan in September
+saying--and here is a man who faces a lot of crises in his
+neighborhood--saying that the peace process in the Sudan was
+the most important in all of Africa. And it is an indication of
+how widespread the implications are of having peace in that
+area.
+ Thank you also for the work that Congress has done on this
+issue, all the members, the legislation, et cetera. It has made
+an extraordinary difference to send a message to the people of
+Sudan how much the United States cares, not just about the
+politics and the strategic aspects of it, but the welfare of
+the people who have suffered from war during this long period
+of time.
+ We had a good week, Madam Chairman. We had, as you
+described and Congressman Berman and others have, a referendum
+that even a month or 2 ago we doubted could come off this well.
+And it came off peacefully, and all the observer missions,
+whether the Arab League, the Africa Union, the U.N., the NDI or
+others, all saying this was a credible, fair, effective
+referendum.
+ It took a lot of work, a lot of diplomatic work, a lot of
+wonderful work by the United Nations. And USAID assembled an
+extraordinary team of IFES, NDI, IRI, the Carter Center, all
+working together to give the Southern Sudan Referendum
+Commission the technical support it needed against all the odds
+to be ready on January 9th to pull this off.
+ So there was a lot involved here, and a lot of people
+deserve credit. But as you said in your opening statement, this
+is just one step there is a lot of hard work left to go.
+ One of the issues, and Congressman Payne emphasized this
+and others have as well, is Abyei. Abyei is a deeply difficult
+emotional issue in Sudanese politics and in its history. Even
+during the referendum, we had instances of violence in that
+area that was finally brought under control with the help of
+the U.N. and the meeting of the parties, and there was an
+agreement signed this past weekend that should permit the
+beginning of the migration security for it and other
+arrangements should contain the situation. But the underlying
+issue of the future of Abyei remains a very critical one.
+ It is an issue that probably can only be solved at the
+level of the Presidents, of President Bashir and President
+Kiir, and we hope that action will resume on those negotiations
+very shortly after the referendum. There are other processes.
+There are the popular consultations that are very important in
+Blue Nile and South Kordofan. I am happy to say that the
+consultations have started in Blue Nile. I will be visiting
+that area next week to witness some of those consultations. And
+we hope South Kordofan will be able to start soon after the
+elections in that state.
+ And as you have all said, there are a whole range of issues
+that the two parties now have to get down to work and solve by
+July. The relationships between what looks like now two
+independent countries, but who share so much interdependence.
+As you know, much of the oil is in the South; much of the
+infrastructure for exporting it and refining it is in the
+North. People live along that border, some 30 percent of the
+population, and they go back and forth all the time.
+ There needs to be a solution to the oil sector, to
+citizenship issues, to what those parties have called soft
+borders and how they will operate, security arrangements,
+currency, et cetera. A lot of work has been done. A lot of
+technical work has been done. But now the political work has to
+start on bringing these issues to a head.
+ Now, you have mentioned the question of our relationship to
+Sudan and particularly to the Government of Northern Sudan, and
+it is a very important issue. Part of the discussions that have
+been going on for the last month is how the U.S. relationship
+with Northern Sudan played into the negotiations. There was a
+very strong feeling that until there was some sense of our own
+relationships with the Sudan and the future of Sudan, there
+would be an obstacle there to the negotiations themselves.
+ But something equally important that I have discovered in
+my time there--I have met with leaders of the opposition in the
+North. I have met with women's groups and youth groups, and
+what I find is that the people of Northern Sudan are terribly
+worried about the outcome of the CPA. They feel that they are
+going to be abandoned. They feel that it will lead to war. They
+feel that it will lead to economic deprivation, and they want
+to know what the future is for them once the South is gone. And
+that is an important concern, because instability in the North
+or chaos in the North is not going to be any more in our
+interest than chaos in the South.
+ There also has to be political transformation of the North.
+That is part of the dream, if you will, the objective of the
+CPA, and it hasn't really happened. So we want to be engaged in
+the North. We want it to be successful and strategically
+stable, and we want to see prosperity for the people there.
+ We have put down a roadmap for normalization with Northern
+Sudan after the CPA. And I can assure you that it is based on
+actions; it is not based on promises. The first step only comes
+after the government accepts the results of the referendum. And
+the step there, as the President said in his letter to Senator
+Kerry, which Kerry--Senator Kerry presented to the Sudanese,
+was that the President would begin the process of withdrawing
+Sudan from the list of States Sponsoring Terrorism. But they
+would have to meet all of the conditions under that law, and
+they would also have to complete the negotiations which you
+have all well described for the remaining balance of the CPA.
+And there has to be progress toward peace in Darfur.
+ So before we can even complete that process and certainly
+before we would come to Congress and discuss the possible
+lifting of sanctions, steps would have to be taken, concrete
+steps by the North. In the meanwhile, a great deal has to be
+done on helping Southern Sudan. It is an area, as all of you
+know, devastated by war, extraordinarily poor with almost no
+infrastructure to speak of. You fly over Southern Sudan, you
+see very little agricultural activity. You see almost no roads.
+You have a very low educational base and a thin administrative
+structure.
+ A lot of donors are working on that problem. We are the
+major donor. Our technical assistance this past year to the
+Government of Southern Sudan is about $430 million. Other
+donors are contributing just under $700 million to developing
+the capacity of the South. A lot of countries are involved.
+Kenya is the biggest trainer of technical personnel. The U.K.,
+the European Union, Norway and others and China has begun a
+development program in the South. It is going to be a long,
+hard struggle for the South to meet the expectations of its
+people.
+ We have done a lot and we will continue to do a lot to
+build up their capacity, their ability for conflict resolution
+within the South, their ability to deliver in education, health
+and the other areas of which their people expect.
+ Now, Darfur is not my brief. General Gration, and he
+apologizes for not being able to within you today. He was just
+in Darfur this past week and he is joined now by another
+colleague of mine, Dane Smith, who will be working on Darfur in
+the same way that I have been working on the North-South. But I
+don't want anybody to get the impression that the
+administration is either forgetting Darfur or sacrificing
+Darfur to the CPA. In fact, there is a good deal of interaction
+in Sudan between the two. There has to be peace in both places
+for Sudan, North and South, to succeed.
+ I am not the expert on Darfur, but I know that work is
+underway to try and bring peace to strengthen UNAMID, to
+increase access for the humanitarian organizations and, above
+all, to get a credible peace process. And I am sure General
+Gration would be happy to brief you on all of that.
+ Let me just conclude on one issue raised by Congressman
+Smith, a very important one about which we were very concerned,
+and that is the condition and the future for the southerners
+living in Northern Sudan. There are quite a few, as you know,
+estimates of as many as 1.5 million. Since the beginning of the
+CPA in 2005, 330,000 people have returned to South Sudan. Just
+since last August, 150,000 have returned and more are returning
+all of the time.
+ What we found was that the process was erratic, not very
+well planned and the states in the southern part of Sudan not
+prepared to receive them or get them to places where they could
+earn a livelihood. So we have worked now, we and the U.N., to
+try and regularize that process. We went to Government of
+Sudan, and we said, we need access to all the places where the
+southerners live in the North. We didn't have that access
+before. We have it now. We and the U.N. and international
+agencies can now go visit the southern population in the North,
+find out what they are planning. UNHCR is going to begin a
+registration process and try to make more orderly the process
+of departure.
+ Second, we are working with the government in the South to
+come up with more realistic timetables and plans for absorbing
+that many people in what is a very poor area. So I just wanted
+to assure you that this is an issue high on our list. And we
+have been given assurances, but we will monitor it very
+closely, that there will be no reprisals against those people.
+ But it does raise one final issue that you all have
+mentioned, and that is the citizenship issue. Because the
+question is what happens when the South becomes independent to
+southerners living in the North or northerners living in the
+South. The Government of Sudan, the Northern government, the
+NCP, has said they will not support dual citizenship for
+everyone, and that is a right of a government to say that. But
+what we and others have argued is--and both sides have agreed
+in principle--that you cannot create a situation of
+statelessness for anyone.
+ Therefore, there has to be a period of transition during
+which Southern Sudan develops its own rules, regulations and
+procedures for citizenship and then southerners who so wish can
+access that citizenship if they choose. This is a very
+important issue both for the stability of the country and in
+terms of basic human rights. And it is one of the critical
+issues still to be negotiated.
+ I will stop there, Madam Chairman. I am happy to answer
+questions.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Lyman follows:]
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so very much.
+ Excellent testimony. We will begin our question and answers
+now.
+ But I just want to remind our members, pursuant to
+longstanding committee practice, I will be recognizing you by
+seniority for those who are here when I make the sound of the
+gavel, and then by order of arrival for those who arrive after
+the gavel. So there is an incentive to get here on time, boys
+and girls.
+ And I am pleased as punch to have so many members of our
+freshman class on our committee. To make a public declaration
+of how pleased I am, I randomly chose among the wonderful
+freshmen members of our committee Mr. Duncan's name. So I will
+yield my time, my question-and-answer time, to Mr. Duncan from
+South Carolina.
+ Mr. Duncan is recognized.
+ Mr. Duncan. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
+ Ambassador Lyman, thank you for coming to address the
+committee today about Sudan, and I just have a few questions
+because we are concerned about terrorism in the world. We are
+concerned about national security. And can the administration
+credibly certify to Congress that Sudan has permanently ceased
+support for fellow State Sponsors of Terrorism, including Iran
+and Syria, and designated foreign terrorist organizations,
+including Hamas?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Excuse me. First, Madam Chairman, I
+forgot. I submitted a fuller statement for the record if that
+is okay.
+ Congressman, that will be part----
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Without objection. Thank you.
+ Ambassador Lyman. Thank you very much.
+ That will be a part of this process that would begin, and
+it is a process whereby the relevant agencies and the United
+States Government would be examining that.
+ I think the requirement is to look at it over a 6-month
+period to make sure that Sudan would meet all of the criteria
+under the law regarding counterterrorism.
+ That process hasn't yet begun because the President hasn't
+announced it, because it is conditional to even begin that
+process based on the acceptance of the results of the
+referendum.
+ But I assure you that that will be done and that the
+administration will then consult with Congress on the results
+of that review.
+ Mr. Duncan. Just a follow-up. What do you make of the
+independent or open-sourced reports that Iranian arms transited
+Sudan en route to Hamas and the Gaza strip? Can you help with
+that?
+ Ambassador Lyman. I cannot comment on that, Congressman.
+But I can assure you that those are the kinds of issues that
+will be looked at in this review process.
+ Mr. Duncan. Are open-source reports of Bashir's strong
+relationship with Hamas leadership inaccurate?
+ Ambassador Lyman. I am afraid I am not in a position to
+comment on that. I, again, say that the agencies in the U.S.
+Government are going to examine all of that as a part of this
+process. I apologize that I am not in a position to comment on
+that information which our agencies will have to determine and
+verify.
+ Mr. Duncan. We look forward to the time that you can
+comment on that. Thank you.
+ I yield back my time, Madam Chair.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much. Thank you for
+that maiden voyage.
+ Welcome to all of our wonderful freshmen.
+ I would like to yield 5 minutes to our wonderful ranking
+member, Mr. Berman.
+ Mr. Berman. Thank you, Madam Chairman, and I will follow
+your lead, and I am going to yield my 5 minutes to the
+tentative and I think soon-to-be ranking member of the Africa
+Subcommittee, the long-time chair of that subcommittee and, to
+a great extent, one of my key mentors on the issue of Sudan,
+Mr. Payne.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Mr. Payne is recognized.
+ Mr. Payne. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for yielding.
+ Ambassador Lyman, the AU was very involved in this IGAD,
+which is, as most of us know, the East African
+Intergovernmental Authority on Development, which has several
+East African countries, about six or seven, Kenya, Uganda, et
+cetera. And they were very involved, as you know, actually in
+the negotiations in Naivasha. How strong do you believe that
+the AU and IGAD will remain in Sudan as they move forward to
+the more difficult times?
+ Ambassador Lyman. I think the roles are going to be
+different. The Africa Union is now charged with overseeing the
+post-referendum negotiations over the issues we talked about.
+And the high-level panel that the AU has created to do this is
+headed by former South African President Thabo Mbeki and then
+with former Burundian President Buyoya and former Nigerian
+President Abubakar. And they have a staff and have overseen the
+structure of the negotiations. I am happy to say that we in the
+U.N. worked very, very closely with them. We are official
+observers in those discussions and worked very closely with
+them on the negotiations.
+ IGAD now plays I think a different and more political role.
+The IGAD summit some weeks ago was a very important step in
+confirming assurances from the Government of Sudan about the
+referendum and proceeding with the CPA. They are not as active
+as they used to be in Naivasha and elsewhere in the actual
+negotiations.
+ Mr. Payne. How do you see the--as we know, Abyei is
+certainly a very difficult issue to confront. But also, as you
+know, the Blue Nile and the Southern Kordofan states have also
+some question about where they really belong. What is your take
+on those two states?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Well, the CPA did not see the popular
+consultations as the same as for Abyei. Abyei was accorded the
+right of self-determination to see whether they wanted to be
+part of the North or the South. That is not included in the
+terms of reference for the popular consultations. What the
+popular consultations are supposed to do for those two states
+is to determine how the CPA has affected them and how their
+relationships, both internally in the state and with Khartoum,
+should take place. They are more like if--if I can describe it,
+good governance consultations, rather than self-determination
+consultations.
+ And what we are pleased about with Blue Nile is the
+tremendous amount of interest taking place as those
+consultations get underway. People are coming forward. Civil
+society is coming forward, and they will look very carefully at
+both the governance of the state and the way the central
+government impacts on their lives.
+ As you know, elements in those states fought on the side of
+the SPLM, but they live in the North. And they are part of the
+North. So the question really that is being posed is, what kind
+of political structure will we be seeing in the North that
+accommodates their interests and the interests of everyone else
+in the North?
+ Mr. Payne. And the final question about Egypt and the Nile,
+Egypt can be very, very constructive, or they can be very
+destructive. And they have changed roles during this whole
+conflict. The Nile is something that Egypt feels concerned
+about. How do you think the negotiations regarding Egypt and
+the North and other countries will go on the Nile?
+ Ambassador Lyman. I think it is not a secret that Egypt was
+very concerned about the whole self-determination vote and the
+implications of it. But toward the latter part of the year,
+Egypt became very supportive. And just prior to the referendum,
+President Mubarak, along with President Gaddafi, came and urged
+the government to go ahead and go through with the referendum
+and follow the dictates of the CPA. And I think the attitude of
+Egypt is that they are going to work with the new Government of
+Southern Sudan.
+ Now, water, as the chairwoman said, is one of the issues to
+be negotiated, how the water is managed, the Nile, which cuts
+through both Southern and Northern Sudan, are going to be
+managed, access to water, amounts of water. Those negotiations
+have not gotten very far, and they will be important, and
+clearly Egypt will be watching them very closely.
+ Mr. Payne. Thank you very much.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. The chairman-designate of the
+Africa, Global Health, and Human Rights Subcommittee, Mr. Smith
+from New Jersey, is recognized.
+ Mr. Smith of New Jersey. Thank you.
+ And, Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your extraordinary
+service and your leadership. Let me ask a couple of questions.
+ First, you mentioned the first step beginning the process
+of removing Sudan from the State Sponsors of Terrorism List.
+Ambassador Williamson and I--we were serving with him at the
+U.N. Human Rights Commission when it was a commission in
+Geneva. And he led the effort on getting the focus on genocide
+being committed in Darfur, did an outstanding job doing it. He
+makes a point in his testimony that the--you must make that
+determination purely on the merits, not tilted to some other
+political considerations. And based on what you said, it sounds
+like that is the process you are going to pursue, but I would
+just like to hear you say it in your own words or further
+elaboration.
+ Secondly, churches play a key role, perhaps even a central
+role in the provision of humanitarian and development aid and
+in promoting dialogue and mediating crises. Will the faith-
+based sector in the new Republic of Southern Sudan, if that is
+what emerges here, receive a significant amount of money to
+immediately have a high impact on health care delivery and the
+like?
+ Thirdly, the ICC chief prosecutor said that Bashir may have
+skimmed upwards of $9 billion. Is that true? What do we know
+about that?
+ And finally, I mentioned in my opening about the 35,000
+southerners who remain in the North in forced servitude. In the
+mid-1990s, I held a hearing on slavery in Sudan, was roundly
+criticized when I had it. And I can tell you by whom if you
+ask. Roundly criticized. But we brought out the point--and I
+even had a woman, a mother who told the harrowing story of how
+they broke into her home, stole her son, kidnapped her son,
+gave him an Islamic name, and then he became part of a slavery
+regime. What are we doing about that?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Thank you very much, Congressman. On the
+first question, with regard to the State Sponsors of Terrorism,
+first and foremost, they have to meet all of the conditions
+under that law. So it has to be on the merits of that.
+ But secondarily, we have also said that the final step has
+to be in the context of they are also meeting the conditions of
+the CPA.
+ So it is, first and foremost, they have to meet those
+criteria. And then, second, when we would take the step would
+be when they have also--if they meet all those criteria, that
+they would also have to meet the criteria under the CPA.
+ On churches, I don't know of the exact plans on USAID, but
+I will say this, they play an extraordinarily important role in
+Southern Sudan, as you know. And they have been very important
+in conflict resolution, and I think they will play a major role
+in the development side. There is no question it is one of the
+elements of society.
+ I will just take a second to say something that has
+bothered me about the peace process; it has not been terribly
+transparent. That is, it has been carried on--and we are part
+of this, too--between two parties, but civil society hasn't
+been brought in very much. I think now, as we move forward,
+there must be much broader transparency and involvement of
+civil society in what comes next, and that very much includes
+the churches.
+ On the $9 billion, I have seen the accusation. I haven't
+seen the proof, so I cannot say.
+ On slavery, it is a very, very bitter memory for people who
+suffered that. That includes some people in the Abyei area.
+ Clearly, the independence of the Southern Sudan, if that is
+what the vote will show, may alleviate that problem and other
+security steps, but clearly, that has to go if it exists
+anymore. But the memory is there, and I know people who have
+spoken to me about the bitterness that they feel about it.
+ Mr. Smith of New Jersey. Finally, let me ask one final
+question with my time. Are there sufficient resources available
+at the UNHCR, as well as within our own Government as well as
+other contributors, to assist the southerners in the North to
+register them, as you said, to mitigate the incidents of
+retaliation? And what kind of numbers are we talking about in
+terms of funds?
+ Ambassador Lyman. The Southern Sudan Government talks about
+another--or up to 500,000 people coming. So that would be
+another 350,000. We have made it a very, very strong part of
+our diplomacy with the North that no retaliation or violence
+takes place against the southerners in the North. We have been
+back to them on this over and over and over again. And so far,
+that has been--they have respected that. And they claim they
+will respect it.
+ But the future of those people in terms of citizenship and
+economics, et cetera, is still an important consideration. Now,
+UNHCR is just beginning, really, now that it has access to
+start to register people, et cetera. There is sufficient
+international stocks of emergency supplies to handle people
+when they come south, let's say to get 3-month supply of food,
+et cetera.
+ The problem is how well these people can be integrated for
+long-term development because some of them aren't farmers; they
+haven't been farmers, et cetera. And this is something we have
+under discussion now with the Government of Southern Sudan and
+how our development programs can help in that regard. That, to
+me, is becoming the most serious challenge. So far, we have
+been able to work in the North without any retaliation against
+those people.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much.
+ I am pleased to yield to the gentleman from New Jersey, my
+good friend, Congressman Sires.
+ Mr. Sires. Thank you, Madam Chair, and congratulations.
+ Ambassador Lyman, as I listen to you, I sense hope in your
+voice that this is going to succeed.
+ But as I listen carefully to what you say to me--excuse me,
+to the committee, I am not as optimistic. I mean, there is no
+infrastructure, no help, no way of feeding. There is a
+referendum governing one end of the country. What can we--what
+steps can we take to continue to encourage the peace?
+ And I worry, when you split these countries--we don't have
+a good experience in Korea still. The tensions are still there.
+And I worry when all this money comes in to try to help, I look
+at Haiti and the lack of infrastructure. Sorry, but you sound
+optimistic, but I am not as optimistic as you are, and I do
+hope that we can continue--we have so many years of war, that I
+do hope that this leads to a peaceful future. Can you just tell
+us what we can do?
+ Ambassador Lyman. You caught me on a good week. A couple of
+months ago, I was much less optimistic, and I am very
+encouraged that this referendum has come off and what I think
+it signifies for the future.
+ But I wouldn't underestimate the problems ahead. Look,
+there are several different peace problems. One is peace in the
+South itself, where there have been clashes in the past,
+proxies supported by the North, et cetera. Now, we are working
+hard to build up their security capability. By that I mean
+their ability to manage conflict, to manage local issues,
+communicate better, coordinate better, et cetera.
+ Lots of people--lots of countries along with us are
+training people, et cetera. President Kiir has promised a very
+inclusive political process in the future for a new
+constitution in the South. He must follow that path. Otherwise,
+there will be dissension, and there will be trouble.
+ I am reasonably optimistic that they will rise to the
+challenge. But I think it is going to be a good long struggle.
+ The other danger is in the continuing tensions that will
+exist from time to time between the North and the South. One of
+the points we have emphasized so much to both sides in the last
+few months is, don't support proxies; that is, that the North
+doesn't support proxies in the South and vice versa, that the
+South doesn't support proxies in Darfur or someplace else. It
+is a very important part of keeping peace, and they have got to
+resolve their tensions in other ways.
+ I think that the hope for peace in the area comes from
+their inevitable interdependence, whether it is in the oil
+sector, it is the trade sector, et cetera. Both sides need each
+other right now, and both sides now are not interested in going
+back to war. And we can build on that, and they can build on
+that. It is not going to be perfect, and there are going to be
+crises, and there are going to be threats. But I guess I am
+more optimistic now than I was a few months ago.
+ Mr. Sires. And the other issue that I have a concern of is,
+you talked about the oil. Obviously, the oil is in the South,
+and the North is going to feel that they have been excluded of
+its wealth. I just don't see them sitting back and saying,
+well, you had this referendum; you keep the oil, and I will
+stop the water from going South.
+ Ambassador Lyman. Actually, their leverage is greater
+because all the pipelines to export the oil are in the North.
+So what they have had to do--and the Norwegians have been
+extremely helpful in this regard, in laying out all of the
+complexities of how two countries with shared resources can
+work out a fair compensation. During the CPA, they split the
+oil revenues 50/50. But that was temporary. Now there is a
+question of whether the South will keep that ratio, whether
+they will pay a fee for the use of the pipelines, et cetera.
+Those are the details they have got to work out now. But they
+kind of need each other on the oil.
+ And the other thing which is very important--and, again, we
+are grateful to the Norwegians for this analysis--that oil
+isn't that great. Over the next 5 years, it will decline
+substantially in output. Both sides have to develop an economy
+that is less dependent on oil. And that is an important reason
+for them to turn their attention away from war.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. The chairman-designate of the
+Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, Mr. Rohrabacher of
+California.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.
+ And, Mr. Ambassador, what is the population of Sudan, both
+North and South?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Oh, I was afraid you were going to ask me
+that. It is about 8 million in the South.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. And what is it in the North?
+ Mr. Lyman. 38 million overall, thanks to Rich.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. I see.
+ Ambassador Lyman. 38 million overall, about less than a
+third in the South.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. And I will tell you, when I worked in the
+White House, he had all the answers, as well. I just want you
+to know that.
+ Ambassador Lyman. Yeah.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. So 38 million all together. And how much
+have we spent in Sudan?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Since the CPA, overall, for all
+expenditures, peacekeeping and everything else, we have spent
+$10 billion.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. How much?
+ Ambassador Lyman. $10 billion.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. We have spent $10 billion.
+ Ambassador Lyman. Much of that for peacekeeping and relief
+because of the wars and the displacement, et cetera.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Right.
+ Ambassador Lyman. But that is the figure over----
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Now, is that just us or is that the
+overall spending? We have spent $10 billion or----
+ Ambassador Lyman. No, we, the U.S.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. We. And how much has been spent then? We
+have spent $10 billion. How much have the other philanthropists
+of the world spent?
+ Ambassador Lyman. They have contributed--of course, the
+peacekeeping, they contribute toward a formula in the U.N.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Right.
+ Ambassador Lyman. There is a formula that they always
+contribute to.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay.
+ Ambassador Lyman. On the economic side, I know, for
+example, that other donors have been doing about $700 million a
+year in the South.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Uh-huh.
+ Ambassador Lyman. I don't have the figures for what they
+are doing in Darfur. I can try and get those for you.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. But your guesstimate would be that
+we are the biggest contributor and almost 50 percent, maybe, of
+what has been spent has been from us?
+ Ambassador Lyman. We are clearly the largest donor, and I
+will try to get you more accurate percentages.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. Now, what a fortuitous day for you
+to be testifying because President Hu from China has just
+arrived. And I was wondering how much the Chinese have actually
+contributed to this effort.
+ Ambassador Lyman. Well, the Chinese, of course, as members
+of the Security Council, pay whatever their share is of
+peacekeeping costs as permanent members of the Security
+Council. They also have begun a development program in the
+South. They also contribute a fair number of peacekeepers to
+the U.N. peacekeeping force. We don't contribute soldiers; they
+do.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Right.
+ Ambassador Lyman. They have some engineering companies, et
+cetera, in the peacekeeping operation.
+ They are, of course, as you know, big investors in the oil
+industry in Sudan.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Right. But you don't know what they have
+spent. And I think that is significant because it is my
+understanding that the Chinese perhaps are benefiting greatly
+by their association with the government in the North and et
+cetera.
+ Ambassador Lyman. There is no question that oil has been a
+successful investment for them. But now that the oil lies
+largely in the South, they understand that they have to develop
+relationships in the South, as well. And they are beginning
+development programs, road programs, health programs, et
+cetera, in the South.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Let me just note that--now, first of all,
+do you believe that the Chinese have played a positive role in
+Sudan? Is that what you would tell us today, that, by and
+large, the Chinese have played a positive role there over the
+years?
+ Ambassador Lyman. I think they are playing a more positive
+role now than they played before, to be perfectly candid. I
+think they were very resistant, as you well know, in the U.N.
+to sanctions on Sudan. And so there is a history there.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. And they were opposed to the sanctions----
+ Ambassador Lyman. They don't participate----
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Excuse me one moment, but they were
+opposed to those sanctions because they had a direct
+relationship with the tough guys who were running the country.
+Isn't that right?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Yeah.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. And the guys who signed contracts for who
+gets to benefit from the oil.
+ Ambassador Lyman. Right. There is no question about that.
+Now, more recently--and they do most of their diplomacy behind
+the scenes. They don't work in concert with the rest of us
+envoys who meet all the time.
+ They have done some facilitation on the peacekeeping side.
+They contributed peacekeepers. And they have been supportive
+now of the referendum process. They have been openly supportive
+of that and, as I said, starting to do more in the South.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. I only have about 30 seconds left,
+and let me just note that we are entering a new era in
+government. We can no longer afford to have a trillion-and-a-
+half-dollar deficit. We figured that will destroy our country.
+And especially if we are going to be investing $10 billion in a
+country with 38 million people--$10 billion for 38 million
+people--and then see that another country, perhaps our economic
+adversary, like China, is benefiting greatly from our
+investment. Those are the things we need to pay attention to,
+and we will be.
+ Thank you, Madam Chairman.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much.
+ And because the ranking member had given his time to Mr.
+Payne, now Mr. Payne is recognized, as the ranking member-
+designate of the Africa, Global Health, and Human Rights
+Subcommittee, for his questions.
+ Mr. Payne. Thank you very much. I am doing better under
+this new setup than I did under my own.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Well, let's discuss that later.
+ Mr. Payne. Let me continue, I think, on the China
+discussion. As you indicated, China was very, very noninvolved,
+as you know. And there were several meetings that were held
+with the Chinese. The Congressional Black Caucus actually met
+with the Ambassador and, kind of, had a pretty tough meeting
+with them, and they asked for a second meeting. They had never
+been to Darfur. They were still selling weapons. They just had
+no interest in the problems of Sudan.
+ I had the opportunity to go to Beijing, and the second-in-
+command of the Government of China asked the question in the
+Great Hall, once again, about what were they going to do. Since
+then, as you have mentioned, they have sent people to Darfur,
+they have started participating in U.N. peacekeeping.
+ How do you think China will react and do you think they
+will be a true neutral party as this process moves forward?
+ Ambassador Lyman. I think the Chinese will have--you know,
+I don't want to speak for them really, but they have a stake in
+the oil sector. They have a stake that those are Chinese
+companies that own a good deal of the infrastructure, as well
+as their share in the oil industry. They are very concerned
+about that. They want to make sure that whatever is worked out
+between the two entities on oil protects those interests. And,
+of course, they import oil from Sudan, so they want the
+stability of supply.
+ I am pleased that they have begun development programs in
+the South. I think that is very important. I think we need
+every donor we can to help in the South.
+ How they will progress in their relationship between the
+two it is a little hard for me to predict. Obviously, they will
+want to have relations in both countries to pursue their
+interests.
+ Mr. Payne. Now, in the South, the South has the potential
+of a great agricultural program if they get going. At one time,
+Sudan was the breadbasket of all of Africa--and with the oil.
+Are we looking at developing, helping them develop that
+agricultural sector as we move forward?
+ And, secondly, what does Khartoum have left? What will
+their major resources be? Are they industrializing and
+manufacturing?
+ Ambassador Lyman. There was a conference in Nairobi some
+months ago in which the U.S. was a major participant--General
+Gration was there and others--just on agricultural development
+in the South.
+ It will have to be a major focus of their development
+efforts. They have this potential, but it is just not being
+realized at all. So that has to be a major part of their
+economic development, no question about it. You go to Juba now,
+and all the fruits and vegetables are coming from Uganda. You
+know that the potential isn't being realized.
+ In the North, they, too, have to develop the agriculture
+sector. They import a lot of food, which they shouldn't. And
+they are now turning more attention and investment to the food
+sector, knowing their oil revenues are going to go down, that
+they have extraordinary economic potential. They are getting
+investment from Arab countries in the agriculture sector. And I
+think that is going to be one of the major areas they look to,
+as well.
+ Mr. Payne. Yeah. There is a lot of new technology on
+getting water out of the desert now.
+ I have agreed to yield the balance of my time back to the
+ranking member, who I think has a question he would like to
+ask, Mr. Berman.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. The ranking member is recognized.
+ Mr. Berman. I thank you, Mr. Payne, and you, Madam
+Chairman.
+ And I just wanted to thank you, Ambassador. I was sitting
+here, thinking. I came to Congress 28 years ago. You were a key
+figure in the Africa Bureau at that time, during some
+incredible times--the fight against apartheid, the other
+conflicts in Africa going on--the role you played there; and,
+later on, Ambassador to South Africa and the new South Africa;
+the leader of our refugee programs during some of the most--I
+am sure Mr. Smith remembers those years in Southeast Asia and
+in Africa, former Soviet Union, the places--you worked there;
+your role before that at USAID, assistant secretary for IO,
+serving both Republican and Democratic Presidents.
+ You really do give the term ``diplomat'' a great name with
+your stellar service. That you would come out of the academic
+world--I don't know if that is retirement--but to take this on
+is a great tribute to you. Thank you.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much, Mr. Berman.
+ Ambassador Lyman. You are very kind, Congressman. Thank you
+so much.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you.
+ Now I am pleased to yield to the chairman-designate of the
+Terrorism, Nonproliferation, and Trade Subcommittee, Mr. Royce
+of California.
+ Mr. Royce. Ambassador Lyman, you have a long association
+with these problems on the continent of Africa. And we have
+many NGOs who are here today, as well.
+ One of the things that comes with that experience of long
+being engaged with these types of regimes is that it gives you
+an important historical check on your assumptions going forward
+and, in particular, in dealing with Khartoum, which has broken
+promise after promise.
+ When dealing with somebody like Bashir, who is in power not
+because he is a peacemaker, but because he is the most
+ruthless; when looking at that situation--and I have seen
+firsthand the result of that ruthlessness in Sudan, in Darfur,
+Sudan. I remember we had a ``Nightline'' camera crew we took in
+to interview some of the survivors of an attack. And I remember
+a town, Tina, that had been bombed from the air. That was not
+an attack by the Janjaweed. Those were Antonovs that bombed
+that town. I remember interviewing a young man who had lost his
+hand. He had lost his hand to the Janjaweed, but with his other
+hand he was able to draw pictures, as other kids did, of these
+Antonovs that had bombed their village, and of mechanized armor
+that was from the Khartoum government there to support the
+Janjaweed in the attack.
+ So, in looking at this, the NGO community, I think, is very
+hesitant to reach assumptions that all is going to end well.
+And, in one particular regard, there is an issue that all of us
+are concerned about, and it has to do with that issue of the
+state sponsor of terrorism list. Joseph Kony of the Lord's
+Resistance Army could not have abducted 10,000 children and
+abused so many over the last 20 years and made child soldiers
+out of them without the armaments he got from Khartoum, and
+without being able to send his fighters up to Khartoum to be
+patched up without the support that he had. And they didn't
+allow people to go into South Sudan to take him out when we had
+the opportunity to do it.
+ So the question I have is, have you made it very clear to
+Khartoum that any support for the LRA would prevent them from
+being taken off the terrorism list and, basically, that for
+you, this is a red line? That is my question.
+ Ambassador Lyman. I would say categorically we have said
+that. Any support of them by proxies or other such entities
+would preclude our following through on that.
+ Mr. Royce. Very good.
+ Ambassador Lyman. And, in general, I would say, in dealing
+with the regime, the way forward is for them to understand that
+this is the way for them to go forward because it is worse for
+them if they don't, in terms of peace, in terms of any thoughts
+of prosperity.
+ Mr. Royce. And that is logical. But then we have the
+historical record, and we have the fact that, for 10 years,
+between 1994 and 2005, Sudan is the only documented supporter
+for the LRA. And we have a U.N. report last November that LRA
+commanders reached out to Sudan's military in Darfur for
+support. Now, we don't know much more than that, other than
+that that happened.
+ Would the State Department certify to Congress that there
+are no links between the government in Khartoum and the LRA
+before taking them off the terrorism list? I guess that is a
+little harder question.
+ Ambassador Lyman. It is a harder question, and I will get
+you a definitive answer because I have to talk to the people
+who do that kind of analysis.
+ But I can tell you this. I have discussed personally--and I
+know General Gration has--the LRA with the government and made
+it very clear that any support to the LRA would be an obstacle
+to normalization of relations with us. That is a terrible
+group. That is a horrific group.
+ Mr. Royce. Yeah, it is the most horrific group, probably,
+on the planet.
+ Ambassador Lyman. Right.
+ Mr. Royce. And the fact that the Khartoum government would
+support--Ambassador Lyman, thank you for your service.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much.
+ The gentleman from Florida, my good friend, Mr. Rivera.
+ Mr. Rivera. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.
+ Ambassador, in our administration's enthusiasm to engage
+local authorities and roll out basic materials and services as
+a conflict-mitigation strategy, have appropriate safeguards to
+prevent waste, fraud, and abuse been implemented?
+ Ambassador Lyman. One of the things we are working on most
+intensely with the government in the South, which is where most
+of our development assistance is going, is exactly that--that
+is, to get good financial controls, good budget controls, et
+cetera. And we don't put money through the government without
+those kinds of assurances. So we are watching that very
+closely. This is a young government in the South, and getting
+better controls, better financial controls is one of the top
+priorities.
+ We are also doing that at the state level, because
+resources have to be sent down to the state level. So we are
+working with the state governments in the South to make sure
+they have those controls in place. And we will continue to do
+that.
+ Mr. Rivera. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
+ A couple of other questions. What is the status of the S/
+CRS flyaway teams that have been deployed to South Sudan? And
+what are they doing exactly?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Those teams are out visiting and staying
+in areas throughout the South to be able to get an
+understanding of whether there are conflicts developing in the
+South, whether the state governments are capable of dealing
+with them, so that proper assistance and responses can be made.
+ It is kind of an extended outreach for the United States to
+know what is happening out there, to make sure that the
+potentials for conflict in the South, which are serious, are
+being addressed, that we know what is happening, that we have
+good information. And they have been effective over these last
+couple months.
+ Mr. Rivera. If you could drill down on that just a little
+bit further, what types of program funds are they
+administering? To what end? Are they implementing directly? Are
+they employing contractors or providing budget support to local
+institutions?
+ Ambassador Lyman. They are only providing information. It
+is up to USAID and other programs to then help with those
+states and help in their security. The flyaway teams are
+information-gathering teams.
+ Mr. Rivera. A few governance questions. Is the
+administration planning to certify that an elected government
+has taken office to justify removing restrictions on U.S.
+assistance to Sudan under section 7008 of the State Foreign
+Operations and Related Programs Appropriations Act of 2010 as
+carried forward?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Assuming that they voted for secession,
+they will not become fully independent under the CPA until
+July. And then, of course, we would have to have legislation
+with the Congress that would authorize assistance to that
+entity. We don't have to do it right away because independence
+becomes official at the end of the CPA.
+ Mr. Rivera. Will the Secretary of the Treasury also be
+moving to make such a certification to provide debt relief to
+the regime?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Debt relief is--there are sanctions
+against our supporting debt relief. And it depends on how the
+debt is divided, also, between the North and the South. If some
+of the debt is assumed by the South and they become an
+independent entity--and I would want to consult with the
+Congress closely on this--we could support the South in doing
+that.
+ But any general debt relief, assuming that the North
+carries much of that debt--there are sanctions. And they would
+have to be removed for us to support action on debt relief for
+the North.
+ Mr. Rivera. Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back the
+balance of my time.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much. The gentleman's
+time has expired.
+ And now I would like to yield for our last--no, we still
+have one more--the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Chabot, who is the
+chairman-designate of the Subcommittee on the Middle East and
+South Asia.
+ And thanks for subbing for me this weekend, Mr. Chabot.
+ Mr. Chabot. Happy to do it, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate
+the opportunity to do that. And you are loved down there, there
+is no question about that. So we appreciated filling in for
+you.
+ Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time here this
+afternoon. And I know you have answered a lot of questions, so
+just a couple that I have.
+ Relative to the referendum, and assuming that it goes the
+way that virtually everyone believes that it will and that the
+vote in the South is to essentially secede, could you--and I
+know you have already talked about this to some degree, but
+could you discuss again what mechanisms are expected to take
+place relative to the oil revenues and wealth sharing and that
+sort of thing in the disputed areas?
+ Ambassador Lyman. The two entities face some choices on how
+to handle the management of the oil sector. One is to create a
+joint management of the sector. I don't think that is going to
+happen, but that is one option out there.
+ Another is to have the South take an equity position in the
+infrastructure in the North so they are part owner, as well,
+and the economics works out that way.
+ A third option is simply for the South to pay a fee for
+transporting the oil through the pipelines. And there are a
+number of variations on this, all of which--I owe what limited
+knowledge I have of this to the Norwegians, who have laid this
+out in great detail for the two parties.
+ So they will choose among these potential ways of
+cooperating, and then the political decision is, how much does
+the South pay to the North? Is there a premium for peace, to
+put it bluntly, in what they pay? And that is going to be the
+political side of the negotiation.
+ On the other issues, there are working groups on all the
+other issues looking at them technically. For example, on
+currency, if both countries move to a new currency, how do they
+do it very carefully, not to destabilize the other? Because you
+could do that. And they have agreed in principle that they
+won't destabilize each other, but then the question is, what is
+the timing? How do they do it in the proper way? So there is a
+working group on that.
+ And similarly on borders, there is a working group,
+although, again, the decisions there are very political,
+because there are five disputed border areas. Most of the
+border is agreed, but five areas are disputed, and they haven't
+agreed on how to solve the dispute. And that is now a major
+issue to be resolved.
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you.
+ And then on another area, Mr. Ambassador, I was here for 14
+years and then gone the last 2, and so I have gotten a little
+behind in some of these things over the last 2 years. But I
+have been to the Darfur region on two different trips, one to
+the refugee camps in Sudan and then to the refugee camps in
+Chad. And, at the time, things seemed to be simmering down
+somewhat, to the extent that the Janjaweed attacks had been,
+shall we say, limited compared to the way they had been
+previously, although many people were still in the camps.
+ Has there been any progress in the people moving out of the
+camps and back to their villages, or is it too dangerous in
+most places for that to occur?
+ Ambassador Lyman. Again, I have to apologize because Darfur
+isn't in my brief. I don't have the up-to-date details.
+ I don't think there has been a lot of movement in that
+regard. There was some violence very recently between the South
+African--Sudan Armed Forces and one of the rebel groups that
+displaced a lot of people additionally.
+ But I would defer to General Gration when he is here and my
+colleague Dane Smith to give you a more accurate up-to-date. I
+apologize that Darfur I am not as sharp on.
+ Mr. Chabot. That is quite all right, Mr. Ambassador. Thank
+you very much for your time.
+ I yield back the balance of my time, Madam Chair.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much, Mr. Chabot.
+ And the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Marino, which is a
+much revered name in Miami, yields his time. And we thank you
+so much because we are so short of time.
+ So we are going to say, thank you very much, Mr.
+Ambassador, for your time. Get back to work. We are going to
+shoo you out of there.
+ I am going to welcome Ambassador Richard Williamson and
+Omer Ismail to our panelist table. And I am going to give you
+the briefest of introduction. Gentlemen, I am going to be
+ruthless with my gavel because we want to get to the question-
+and-answer period. So, as you settle in, let me introduce you.
+ Ambassador Williamson has served as the President's special
+envoy for Sudan and as the U.S. Representative to the United
+Nations Human Rights Commission, where he pressed for the
+adoption of a resolution condemning the atrocities in Darfur,
+in conjunction with the United Nations commemorations of the
+10th anniversary of genocide in Rwanda.
+ Welcome, Mr. Ambassador. And I know that your book is here
+floating about.
+ And Omer Ismail--thank you so much, Omer. You are so loved.
+A humanitarian, human rights activist, working with numerous
+organizations to stop genocide and mass atrocities. Mr. Ismail
+was born in Darfur but was forced to flee Sudan in 1989.
+ Thank you gentlemen both for being here. I will gavel you
+down in 5 minutes so we can get to our question-and-answers
+because we have votes on the floor in a little bit. Thank you.
+ Ambassador Williamson, if you could start.
+
+ STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE RICHARD S. WILLIAMSON, PARTNER,
+ SALISBURY STRATEGIES, LLC (FORMER SPECIAL ENVOY TO SUDAN AND
+ AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N. COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS)
+
+ Ambassador Williamson. Thank you very much, Madam
+Chairperson, and congratulations on that. Good to see Ranking
+Member Berman again. And I have to note, Don Payne has spent
+more time working on Sudan than any other American leader, and
+we are all in his debt. And, as Congressman Smith said, we have
+worked together in the past. It is good to be good with you
+again.
+ I think in Sudan you have to first start with the fact that
+there has been marginalization for 200 years that has resulted
+in discrimination--discrimination economically, educationally,
+health, politically, injustice. And that permeates the country,
+and that creates instability. And the South is only a small
+part of the story.
+ Second, we have to recognize that, unfortunately, in Sudan,
+it is too common that the political leaders feel comfortable
+resorting to violence as a legitimate way to pursue their
+political objectives and engage in their atrocities.
+ And, thirdly, we have to recognize the nature of the
+regime. The vote is a shining moment. The Sudan people deserve
+most of the credit. The international community--U.S. brokered
+the CPA, President Bush. And while I have criticized President
+Obama and his administration, they deserve credit for their
+initiative over the last 4 months, the diplomatic surge, which
+was extremely helpful.
+ But the vote is not the end of the story. It may not even
+be the beginning of the end of the story. The contested border
+areas, Abyei, oil revenue sharing, and citizenship are not just
+the headlines of issues. It is the fundamental dispute which,
+over 6 years, have been known. For 6 years, Khartoum has
+blocked progress on those issues. And for the last 6 months, 4
+months notwithstanding, the initiative, little substantive,
+particularized progress has been made.
+ Fourth, my experiences of the CPA, the regime in Khartoum
+breaches commitments. Look at just the CPA. They agreed to
+abide by the Abyei Border Commission. It made its
+determination. The South accepted it; the North refused. They
+agreed to abide by the permanent arbitration court in The Hague
+in its determination of the border. That process went forward.
+The South accepted it; the North refused. In the CPA, the North
+agreed to disarm and demobilize their militias; they did not.
+They committed to transparency in oil revenue sharing and
+accounting; they did not.
+ It is important to recognize that incentives alone are
+inadequate, promises are illusory, and incentives without
+steel, without some threat of coercion, have proven a failure
+in the past, and they will let down the Sudanese people again.
+ Underlying all this, what is the U.S. goal? In 2005, it was
+in part the separation, and we paid for that. It would be
+overpaying now to say that because haltingly, imperfectly, in a
+delayed manner and having cost many lives, that we should now
+be overly generous for the performance of commitments made. The
+marginalization continues, the injustices continue, atrocities
+continue.
+ The week before the vote began in the referendum, 18 bombs
+dropped in the South. The U.N. certified that they were from
+the Sudan Armed Forces. And the South is not the only area
+subjected to this. Darfur and the Nuba Mountains cannot be
+separated. We should not rush to give benefits.
+ The nine neighbors and China have not been helpful, but we
+have reached a tipping point where they see that separation is
+going to happen, so they have been, on the margins, helpful.
+They can do more. The administration has tried to encourage it.
+They should. There is an enormous development challenge, but it
+has to have burden sharing, and the European Union and others
+have to increase their participation.
+ I am concerned about a process that begins in a litany of
+incentives before performance, before specific agreements,
+before verification mechanisms are put in place, before there
+is monitored results. As Ronald Reagan used to say, ``Trust but
+verify.'' I am concerned about it, and I fear, once again, the
+Sudanese people will be denied what they need.
+ Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Williamson follows:]
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much. Thank you.
+ Mr. Ismail?
+
+ STATEMENT OF MR. OMER ISMAIL, ADVISOR, THE ENOUGH PROJECT
+
+ Mr. Ismail. Congratulations and thank you, Madam Chair. And
+thanks to the esteemed members of your committee. I will get
+down to it.
+ The United States has a crucial role to play in laying the
+groundwork for peace and stability in Sudan from this moment
+forward. The Southerners have come out. They cast their vote.
+They are going to decide their destiny, which is going to be
+the separation from the mother country of Sudan. But, as
+everybody agrees, including President Obama in his op-ed in the
+New York Times, that the work is just beginning.
+ So the United States should capitalize on this current
+momentum in Sudan to address three crucial issues that will
+establish peace and stability in all of Sudan and the
+neighboring countries in the region.
+ First, the relationship between North and South Sudan must
+be clarified before secession formally takes place in July.
+This involves detailing the economic arrangements between North
+and South after separation, the legal status of populations in
+both the North and the South, as well as resolving the status
+of contentious border areas. Without agreement on these issues,
+anxieties on the ground and among the leadership of both
+governments have the potential to spark violence.
+ Second, the conflict in Darfur must be reprioritized. An
+inadequate peace process has trickled along for years while
+violence has intensified in recent weeks. Now is the time to
+revitalize the Darfur peace process, one that has inched along
+for years with very limited effect on the ground in Darfur.
+ Number three, at a time when political changes will be
+underfoot in both the North and the South, the U.S. should
+press both governments toward inclusive governance and
+pluralism to ensure that peace endures in Sudan, both in the
+North and the South.
+ Sharing oil revenues, the currency, citizenship, border,
+and the issue of Abyei are very crucial, but until now, the
+international community has been content to let the Sudanese
+parties delay making the difficult and necessary decisions to
+ensure a peaceful transition. In place of this unassertive
+mediation, the U.S. should jump-start a far more proactive
+international mediation, modeled upon the Naivasha peace
+process that produced the CPA.
+ The Sudanese Government in August unveiled its own Darfur
+strategy that would nationalize or domesticate the political
+forces, and focus on the return of IDPs, development and
+implementation of justice locally. We believe that this plan is
+not only problematic but that it hides the government's true
+intention of seeking a military solution in Darfur.
+ We believe the way forward is for the U.S. to have a
+decisive roadmap to secure peace in Darfur based on a sound
+diagnosis on why efforts to date have fallen short of the mark.
+This will require robust engagement with the mediation team,
+significant diplomatic and technical support, and securing
+constructive participation by the Europeans, China, and the
+regional actors.
+ Finally, the U.S. should capitalize on the opportunity for
+political reform that South Sudan's secession presents for both
+the North and South.
+ In the North, several of the processes that the United
+States should strongly support are specifically mandated under
+the CPA, including a constitutional review that involves public
+participation as well as popular consultation in the border
+states of Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile. Investing in civil
+society groups, independent voices, political party
+development, and other building blocks to a more democratic
+future are fundamentally steps that the U.S. can take toward
+preventing future conflict in Sudan.
+ In the South, we see a fragile new state that is filled
+with potential. It is in the interest of the United States to
+help lay the foundation for good governance and invest in real
+institution and capacity building. The development of a strong
+Parliament and judiciary, as well as executive institutions
+that deliver services, share power, and transparently
+administer tax on oil revenue will be key to the peace in
+Southern Sudan.
+ As the United States moves forward to urgently ensure that
+the two Sudans separate amicably but find the common ground
+necessary to sustain peace in a tumultuous corner of the world,
+we must do what we can to help deliver on the promises to all
+Sudanese.
+ Thank you, Madam Chair.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Ismail follows:]
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you, gentlemen. You have
+proven that you can be brilliant and succinct. Thank you.
+ I will yield my time to the gentleman from Florida, Mr.
+Rivera.
+ Mr. Rivera. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
+ Ambassador Williamson, thank you very much for being here.
+By the way, what years were you at the United Nations Human
+Rights Commission?
+ Ambassador Williamson. Oh, it was 2004, I think it was.
+ Mr. Rivera. I was there in the late 1980s and early 1990s,
+working for one of your predecessors, U.S. Ambassador Armando
+Valladares.
+ Ambassador Williamson. I was assistant secretary for IO at
+the time, and Armando was working for me. He did a great job,
+pushed an important issue, and we should continue to put
+pressure on the island prison.
+ Mr. Rivera. Thank you. And thank you not only for those
+words, thank you for your service.
+ With respect to the roadmap, Ambassador, pursuant to the
+roadmap presented, the administration is poised to remove Sudan
+from the state sponsors of terrorism list, facilitate high-
+level visits, exchange ambassadors, ease sanctions, and advance
+negotiations for debt relief in exchange for Khartoum meeting
+its own obligations under the Comprehensive Peace Agreement.
+ United States leverage with regard to Darfur would be
+reserved to lifting sanctions that cannot be removed without
+legislative relief. In your opinion, does Khartoum care about
+the remaining sanctions? And, realistically, what leverage
+would the United States have, with regard to Darfur, if the
+United States pursues this course?
+ Ambassador Williamson. First, a generic observation,
+Congressman: The less a regime deserves the mantle of
+legitimacy, the more they desire it. And those actions all
+raise into question the legitimacy of the government of
+Khartoum. So it is beyond whatever economic benefit or other
+benefits; it goes to their legitimacy within Sudan and outside.
+ Second, as I noted earlier, I am concerned about being too
+anxious to provide incentives. Remember, the Comprehensive
+Peace Agreement was agreed to 6 years ago. When I was special
+envoy, it was my view, after meeting with the leaders often in
+Khartoum, meetings that drew the criticism from Senators Obama,
+Biden, and Clinton, that they had already made a decision at
+the time they signed CPA that they may be having to give up the
+South.
+ I have noted that all the difficult issues that matter have
+not been resolved. We have a long way to go beyond the 6-month
+period when separation will become official before we know if
+those commitments will be made. And I also know, from my
+various positions in government, there is a bureaucratic
+momentum once you start the process. Again, to cite President
+Reagan, ``Trust but verify.'' We have to see more.
+ Mr. Rivera. Thank you, Ambassador.
+ In November 2008, Ambassador Lyman participated in a
+conference hosted by the Embassy of Sweden and the United
+Nations Association on the ``responsibility to protect.'' And
+according to a meeting summary, he suggested that Darfur would
+be excluded from obligations inferred from the responsibility
+to protect because the crimes were committed prior to adoption
+of the world summit outcome document in 2005.
+ What is your position on this? And does the United Nations
+have a responsibility to protect marginalized populations in
+Sudan in the event that the regime in Khartoum decides to crush
+all remaining opposition following a vote for independence in
+Southern Sudan?
+ Ambassador Williamson. I think the general responsibility
+to protect preceded the millennium summit outcomes document
+adopted in September 2005. Furthermore, I think when you look
+at the genocide in slow motion that continued after the
+adoption of that document, it is important for the United
+States and the international community to step up to its
+responsibility.
+ Let me note, I am loathe to ever disagree with Ambassador
+Princeton Lyman, who I have the greatest respect for. But, in
+this case, I do think we have a responsibility. I have noted
+that as recently as 2 weeks ago Khartoum was involved in
+bombings in the South. They have been involved in bombings in
+Darfur. They continue to engage in coordinated attacks. It is
+less intense only because there are fewer targets of
+opportunity. This should be a concern. It is not delinked from
+the North/South nor the difficulties in the Nuba Mountains. We
+have to be more robust.
+ And one of the disappointments has been that those
+violations of past agreements have occurred, innocent lives
+have died, and there has been a reluctance from the
+administration to hold to account and publicly criticize the
+perpetrators of these atrocities.
+ Mr. Rivera. Thank you very much. Appreciate your service,
+again. Nice seeing you after 20 years.
+ And I yield back the balance of my time.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much.
+ I am pleased to yield to the ranking member-designate of
+Africa, Global Health, and Human Rights, Mr. Payne of New
+Jersey.
+ Mr. Payne. Thank you very much.
+ Let me ask you, Mr. Ismail, what do you think of the
+prospects of a right to return for the people of Darfur? Has
+the government thought of any plan? Is it safe for some areas
+to have a right to return?
+ For people to live in refugee camps for now until the next
+generation is wrong. So I would even like to see sanctions held
+until the government comes up with a plan of the right of
+people to return to their properties.
+ Mr. Ismail. I am in agreement, Mr. Payne, because the
+Government of Sudan has put every obstacle in the way of peace
+in Darfur, and the refugees and the IDPs cannot return today to
+their regions, to their place of origin because, A, there is
+nothing there, after they have been burned and all the
+infrastructure that were there support to life was destroyed
+during the attacks. And, again, there is another reason,
+because most of these areas were occupied by people who, in
+some reports, we have seen that they don't even belong to
+Sudan, let alone belonging to Darfur and being citizens of
+Darfur.
+ Number three, the violence still continues. And until
+today, contrary to the SOFA agreement, the agreement of the
+deployment of the U.N. troops, the Government of Sudan is still
+putting the obstacles in front of UNAMID and the U.N. troops
+that are supposed to protect those people and supposed to
+provide safe havens for those people who are willing to
+voluntarily return to the areas.
+ Yes, the sanctions should remain until that issue is
+addressed in Darfur.
+ Mr. Payne. Thank you very much.
+ Ambassador Williamson, I remember meeting you in Abyei. The
+flames were still smoldering.
+ What is your take on the East? We heard very little about
+the East, and, as we know, there are problems there. How do you
+see the government in Khartoum moving forward with the problem
+in the East, with the separation from the South? Will there be
+panicking? Will the East decide that they should have some
+protest against the government and do something perhaps that
+happened in Darfur when that began? What do you think about
+that part?
+ Ambassador Williamson. Thank you, Congressman Payne.
+ I think relevant to that is what has been the U.S. policy
+goal, a bipartisan policy goal in Sudan. And it is to bring
+sustainable peace, stability, and justice--justice that has
+been denied due to marginalization.
+ And you are correct, in the East, in the Nuba Mountains, as
+well as Darfur, as well as in the South, they have been victims
+of those injustices. And if there is dismemberment of Sudan and
+the South is independent next July, you still have the root
+cause of injustices that will not be addressed. And I am loathe
+to be too generous until those issues are dealt with for those
+who have been subjected to violence as well as the injustice.
+And I think the instability and traumas will continue both in
+the East as well as in the West.
+ Secondly, Congressman, there is a lot of talk about the
+stress that is going to be on the North after separation if it
+comes. And I acknowledge that that is true. There will be
+people that say the government has lost its legitimacy. The
+opposition will try to unite. The rebel movements may move more
+aggressively in Darfur or overreach. But there also will be
+stress in the South.
+ Political competition has been suppressed because of a
+unity to try to move to CPA implementation. And I would suggest
+to you that the competition that will be unleashed in the next
+6 months, in the next 12 months, also will be severe in Juba,
+that it will be difficult for the Government of Southern Sudan
+to be excessive in its concessions, especially those that are
+aren't meritorious, and that the negotiators have to be mindful
+of that, as well.
+ Thank you.
+ Mr. Payne. In the seconds I have, Luis Ocampo said that
+Bashir should still be indicted. Where do you think that is
+going?
+ Ambassador Williamson. I am very concerned. It is ironic
+that President George Bush, who opposed the ICC, was a stronger
+supporter for international accountability of the regime in
+Khartoum than this administration has been.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much.
+ Chairman-Designate Smith of the Africa, Global Health, and
+Human Rights Subcommittee.
+ Mr. Smith of New Jersey. Gentlemen, thank you very much for
+your testimony and for your leadership.
+ New York Times reporter Jeffrey Gettleman wrote a piece,
+``Roots of Bitterness in a Region Threaten Sudan's Future.'' It
+was in the New York Times on January 15th. And he talks about
+how most people in Abyei are armed to the teeth.
+ My question, first, is, where have all those AK-47s gone
+that we believe the Chinese Government helped to facilitate,
+well in excess of 100,000? Are they there? Are we perhaps being
+a little too optimistic about the prospects of a peaceful
+transition here or what?
+ Ambassador Williamson. I think, Congressman, if you are
+dealing with Sudan, you have to have a fault of optimism to be
+able to deal with such a difficult issue. So I have no fault
+there.
+ But, as you know, if it is Human Rights First, if it is the
+small-arms commission of the U.N., the documentation of Chinese
+small arms has been irrefutable. And we can assume--there have
+been credible reports of the flow of those arms down into
+regions near the border, directed by Khartoum. It is a matter
+of great concern.
+ I think, as Congressman Payne said, we were together in
+Abyei when the smoke was still coming up where the charred bed
+remains, where there were no homes as far as you can see. And
+then in the Gok, where 50,000 people were living under torn
+sheets during the rainy season when you couldn't walk without
+mud up to your ankles.
+ The tragedy of Abyei goes on. It goes on because of the
+oil. The vote was good, but the tough issues lie ahead.
+ Mr. Ismail. May I add, there is information that is coming
+from Abyei that the weapons are there and the violence can
+spark at any moment. You might have heard of this project that
+The Enough Project, with Harvard University and others, have
+launched. And these are the eyes in the sky that are going to
+show us what is happening in Abyei, so stay tuned.
+ And, also, the small arms are there, and other open sources
+that are saying 55,000 of the 105,000 standing army of Sudan
+are in or around the area of Abyei. If that is not a spark that
+is going to start something, I don't know what it is. So we
+have to be vigilant, we have to work hard to avoid that clash
+from happening.
+ Mr. Smith of New Jersey. Let me ask about the Sudanese
+slaves. I mentioned earlier about the 35,000. Do you have any
+recommendations on how to liberate them from the bondage that
+they live in in the North?
+ Also, on debt, $35 billion to $40 billion of indebtedness,
+mostly to other countries like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, but
+also, if my understanding is correct, about $2 billion to the
+U.S.
+ When the administration talks about the roadmap, could you
+again say whether or not you believe--because debt is certainly
+a part of that--lifting the designation as a state sponsor of
+terror--and other issues, obviously, are in there, as well--
+could you speak to that roadmap, if you would, how comfortable
+you are with it, either of you.
+ And finally--I will run out of time. Why don't you go on
+those issues?
+ Mr. Ismail. I will start with the roadmap in Darfur, as
+well in the South, because, as you know, all these issues that
+we are talking about are real issues, the border and the Abyei
+issue, as far as the South is concerned, the debt and currency
+and the citizenship.
+ If you listen to the rhetoric coming out of Khartoum, that
+the Southern Sudanese are going to be stripped of their
+citizenship the day after announcing the secession--and I don't
+know how they are going to define a Southern Sudanese from
+another Sudanese that are living in the North today. And how
+about dual citizenship, something that the government gives to
+itself. Some ministers in the Government of Sudan today, they
+hold other passports from different countries, including this
+country. And they are not going to allow the Southerners who
+were born and raised in Sudan as such to have dual citizenship.
+I don't understand that. We have to work hard on these issues.
+ And the roadmap for Darfur, we have to revitalize the peace
+process. We have to support the mediation. And we have to have
+to some high-level people who are involved in this, because the
+alternative of that is going to be violence in Darfur.
+ Mr. Smith of New Jersey. Thank you.
+ Ambassador Williamson. Quickly, Congressman, the most
+important thing with the slave tragedy is being very vigorous
+to push the rule of law, which doesn't exist. It is still the
+rule of position and power. And, second, shining light on it.
+That is the best disinfectant to human rights abuses. The
+United States and others should both engage in speaking out
+more aggressively.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much.
+ The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Carnahan.
+ Mr. Carnahan. Thank you, Madam Chairman. And let me first
+just say congratulations again. We are looking forward to
+working with you in this new Congress and with your leadership.
+And thank you for holding this timely and important hearing.
+ I really wanted to focus my time and again acknowledge this
+referendum. I think it is cause for hope. The international
+community, especially the African Union, the U.N., have played
+important roles in implementing the Comprehensive Peace
+Agreement and were key facilitators of the referendum.
+ I guess, with multilateral engagement, these efforts have
+been met with some criticism. But I would like to ask our two
+panelists here why it is important for the U.S. to continue to
+engage in these international organizations to leverage the
+work in Sudan. What have been some of the tangible benefits so
+far? And how might we, going forward, maximize these
+collaborative efforts?
+ And if we could start with Ambassador Williamson, please.
+ Ambassador Williamson. Thank you, Congressman.
+ I think if we look at Sudan, we see a long history of
+various multilateral mechanisms making a contribution. The IGAD
+process itself, where it has seven Eastern African countries,
+the troika of the United States, Britain, and Norway, were
+instrumental in being the midwife of the Comprehensive Peace
+Agreement.
+ Since then, there has been significant multilateral efforts
+with respect to peacekeeping, first, the African Union forces,
+then the U.N. forces, both in the South and in the West. They
+have not stopped violence. They can't. They don't have the
+capacity. The areas are too big. But they have crowded out the
+space for violence, and they have given some window for peace
+negotiations and discussions.
+ I think you can also look at the assistance where it has
+been an international effort through the Sudan Consortium. I
+think that Congressman Rohrabacher--and he will probably raise
+it, about the burden sharing. The U.S. clearly has made a
+disproportionate contribution. Nonetheless, the Sudan
+Consortium has involved other countries, many other countries.
+Norway has taken the lead in coordination of the consortium,
+and there has been that assistance.
+ But, finally, sir, if I could, let me note that, to the
+degree there has been humanitarian success in Sudan, whether it
+is in Darfur or in the South, the unsung heroes are the
+humanitarian NGO organizations, their workers, who are Sudanese
+as well as from countries all over the world, and the Sudanese
+nationals who also participated in that, some risking their own
+lives.
+ So it has been a collective effort. I do think the U.S.
+deserves note not only for its lead on the humanitarian
+assistance and its pivotal role in the political process, but
+this is a victory for the Sudanese people. But there have many
+who have helped it along through international organizations
+and other mechanisms.
+ Mr. Carnahan. Thank you, Ambassador.
+ Mr. Ismail?
+ Mr. Ismail. Thank you, Mr. Congressman.
+ And I think the United States is standing to benefit a lot
+from the subject in Sudan. It is a huge country, as it stands
+today, 1 million square miles, bordering nine countries. If you
+just consider the western country of Chad there and its natural
+extension of Sudan in the Sahel and you put Nigeria into the
+equation, you will find about 520 million people living in and
+around Sudan. If Sudan unravels, then this whole population is
+going to be thrown in a tailspin.
+ We have seen the spillover of the LRA into Sudan and the
+spillover of Darfur into Chad and the destabilization that has
+created. This is very important. Besides the $10 billion that
+we just talked about here that the United States is spending in
+the South, there are today over $1 billion that the United
+States is spending in Darfur to keep about 3\1/2\ million
+displaced alive. That is a huge burden.
+ If the Sudan was left to its own devices--and we have seen
+violence of the scale that we have seen before in Darfur and
+the South--only God knows how much we are going to spend to
+keep some of these people alive in refugee camps, not in their
+homes.
+ Mr. Carnahan. Thank you. I yield back.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you so much, Mr. Carnahan.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher?
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.
+ And Ambassador Williamson was right. I would like to focus
+a little bit on the disproportionate contribution that the
+United States is making, not only in Sudan, but this, I think,
+exemplifies many of the crises, humanitarian crises, that we
+find around the world.
+ If there is anything the last election should have told the
+rest of the world, it is that the United States can no longer
+afford to do this. We are going broke. And once our economy is
+broken by this irresponsibility that we have had, then we will
+be able to help no one--not our own people, not other people in
+crisis. The world needs to take that into consideration, notice
+it, and plan their futures proportionally.
+ I would suggest that we--that is not to say that in Sudan
+and other places that we have seen these horrible tragedies
+take place, the heartrending murder of innocent people--we care
+about that. But we can no longer afford to carry as big a
+burden as we have.
+ And what makes it worse, perhaps--and, Ambassador
+Williamson, you seem a bit pessimistic that, after this $10
+billion of investment that we have made, that we will actually
+succeed. It is a rough road to go.
+ Let me ask you, is the roadmap that has been set down--do
+you consider that to be adequate? And if it is adequate, has it
+been enforced and followed? Or the roadmap will not succeed
+because it does not address the issues that need to be
+addressed?
+ Ambassador Williamson. Congressman Rohrabacher, if I could
+make a few points that I think are relevant.
+ First, it is noteworthy that when the regime came to power
+in 1989, total exports were $500 million. They grew to $9.5
+billion by 2008, almost all from oil, which is why the oil
+revenue sharing is crucial.
+ Second, with that sort of money coming in, the Government
+of Sudan, who designed the genocide in Darfur, as of the end of
+2008 their total contribution to the humanitarian needs of the
+people in Darfur was $30 million. I think that is not
+irrelevant to the considerations of how much faith we should
+have.
+ Secondly, China gets 6 percent of its imported oil from
+Sudan. They have now tipped, where they understand it is in
+their interest to have stability. They should step up more for
+humanitarian assistance.
+ The larger question you raised on humanitarian assistance
+is beyond my purview. It is up to the 435 of you and the
+hundred across the way to make those decisions, ultimately.
+ But I do think there is an impulse in America that is
+worthy, that is part of our mission, that recognizes whether it
+is human rights, humanitarian assistance, we have an obligation
+to step up. But we should be tough-minded about it, get others
+to step up too, especially in these times of economic peril.
+ And, finally, let me just say on the roadmap, on good days
+I am optimistic, but my experience teaches me to maybe be a
+little skeptical and cynical. And I think the talk of
+incentives without the talk of coercion, without the talk of
+steel, without the talk of being tough, is a matter of great
+concern. As Bismarck said, diplomacy without coercion is like
+sheets of music without instruments.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. And no amount of humanitarian, you know,
+assistance is going to increase the standard of living of
+anybody for any length of time unless it is accompanied by a
+democratization and a change in character of a regime that is
+capable of the type of violence that you have just described.
+Isn't that correct?
+ Ambassador Williamson. Yes, Congressman. I think it is
+important to note, in the South, not only do they have 80
+percent of this oil revenue, but they have other mineral
+resources, and they have among the richest agricultural land
+anywhere, outside of Illinois, which of course has the best.
+ Mr. Rohrabacher. Let me note before my time runs out, which
+is one moment, and that is, Madam Chairman, if we are going to
+help people in the future and they have this potential wealth
+that exists, it is not wrong for us to suggest we are going to
+help you in this crisis but we expect to be paid back one way
+or the other.
+ Chairman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you.
+ The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Chabot.
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Madam Chair.
+ Just a couple of questions briefly.
+ Could you discuss the roles of both the African Union and
+the Arab League in all of the things that we are talking about
+here this afternoon, and what do you anticipate it will be in
+the near future?
+ Ambassador Williamson. Quickly, my experience is it has
+been uneven. The African Union, understandably, is worried
+about countries being split. There are only two African
+countries that have just two ethnic groups. Most of them have
+multiple ethnic groups. They are concerned about a contagion,
+as are the nine neighbors. But I think, now that they have
+understood the inevitability of this, they have played a more
+constructive role. The Arab League was unhelpful, as was the
+African Union, on questions of accountability, but they have
+been helpful on some of the development issues.
+ And Qatar, in particular, should be singled out and the
+minister of state for foreign affairs, Al Mahmoud, for their
+extraordinary leadership in trying to get constructive
+discussions going on Darfur.
+ So, could they have done more? Yes. Should they have done
+more? In my opinion, yes. Do we wish they had done more?
+Absolutely. But they have made contributions and more lately
+than they did a few years ago.
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you.
+ And then, finally, what can we do to ensure that the
+corruption, which is endemic in much of Africa, doesn't take
+root--although, certainly, there is already corruption in
+Southern Sudan--but doesn't thrive in what may soon be Africa's
+newest country.
+ Ambassador Williamson. Transparency, transparency,
+transparency are your first three priorities. Second, good
+governance will require helping train a larger coterie of
+people to run the agencies and departments of a newly
+independent Southern Sudan. And, third, some good green
+eyeshades from outside donors and others to try to monitor it.
+ And, ultimately, as Congressman Rohrabacher indicated, if
+there is, in fact, a democratic process of accountability, that
+is a useful and often determinative aspect in corruption
+fighting.
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you.
+ Thank you. Madam Chair, I yield back the balance of my
+time.
+ Chairwoman Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you very much.
+ Thank you to the presenters. Thank you to our panelists,
+and great members.
+ Tomorrow, at 10:30, in this room, we will be having a
+briefing on China.
+ And, with that, this briefing is adjourned.
+ Thank you, gentlemen.
+ [Whereupon, at 6:32 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
+
+
+
+
+ A P P E N D I X
+
+ ----------
+
+
+ Material Submitted for the Hearing RecordNotice deg.
+
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+ Minutes deg.
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+ Payne statement deg.
+ __________
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