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+
+ - VENEZUELA AT A CROSSROADS
+
+[House Hearing, 116 Congress]
+[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
+
+
+ VENEZUELA AT A CROSSROADS
+
+=======================================================================
+
+ HEARING
+
+ BEFORE THE
+
+ COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
+ HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
+
+ ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
+
+ FIRST SESSION
+
+ __________
+
+ FEBRUARY 13, 2019
+
+ __________
+
+ Serial No. 116-4
+
+ __________
+
+ Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
+
+
+[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+
+ Available:Ahttp://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
+ docs.house.gov,
+ or http://www.govinfo.gov
+
+
+ __________
+
+
+ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
+35-362PDF WASHINGTON : 2019
+
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office,
+http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center,
+U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free).E-mail,
+[email protected].
+
+
+
+
+
+ COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
+
+ ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York, Chairman
+
+BRAD SHERMAN, California MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
+GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York Member
+ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
+GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
+THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida JOE WILSON, South Carolina
+KAREN BASS, California SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
+WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts TED S. YOHO, Florida
+DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
+AMI BERA, California LEE ZELDIN, New York
+JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas JIM SENSENBRENNER, Wisconsin
+DINA TITUS, Nevada ANN WAGNER, Missouri
+ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York BRIAN MAST, Florida
+TED LIEU, California FRANCIS ROONEY, Florida
+SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
+DEAN PHILLPS, Minnesota JOHN CURTIS, Utah
+ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota KEN BUCK, Colorado
+COLIN ALLRED, Texas RON WRIGHT, Texas
+ANDY LEVIN, Michigan GUY RESCHENTHALER, Pennsylvania
+ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
+CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania GREG PENCE, Indiana
+TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey STEVE WATKINS, Kansas
+DAVID TRONE, Maryland MIKE GUEST, Mississippi
+JIM COSTA, California
+JUAN VARGAS, California
+VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
+
+
+ Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director
+
+ Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director
+
+
+
+ C O N T E N T S
+
+ ----------
+ Page
+
+ WITNESSES
+
+Abrams, Hon. Elliott, U.S. Special Representative for Venezuela,
+ U.S. Department of State....................................... 13
+Oudkirk, Sandra, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Energy
+ Resources, U.S. Department of State............................ 20
+Olive, Steve, Acting Assistant Administrator, Bureau of Latin
+ America and the Caribbean, U.S. Agency for International
+ Development.................................................... 25
+
+ APPENDIX
+
+Hearing Notice................................................... 68
+Hearing Minutes.................................................. 69
+Hearing Attendance............................................... 70
+
+ ADDITIONAL MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
+
+Amensty International letter submitted by Chairman Engel......... 71
+Article from The Wall Street Journal submitted by Representative
+ Smith.......................................................... 78
+
+ QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD WITH RESPONSES
+
+Chairman Eliot L. Engel.......................................... 83
+Representative Chris Smith....................................... 85
+Representative David Cicilline................................... 86
+Representative James Sensenbrenner............................... 89
+Representative Michael Guest..................................... 90
+
+
+ VENEZUELA AT A CROSSROADS
+
+ Wednesday, February 13, 2019
+
+ House of Representatives,
+ Committee on Foreign Affairs,
+ Washington, DC
+
+ The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:09 a.m., in
+Room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Eliot Engel
+(chairman of the committee) presiding.
+ Chairman Engel [presiding]. The committee will come to
+order.
+ As the situation in Venezuela continues to unfold, it is
+important that the Foreign Affairs Committee hear from
+policymakers in the Trump administration on the latest
+developments and how the United States will continue to engage
+on this issue. So, I am glad to welcome our panel, whom I will
+introduce prior to their statements.
+ And let me also welcome all our members, the public, and
+the press, and we are glad to have our friends from C-SPAN here
+this morning to cover our hearing.
+ Before we start, without objection, all members may have 5
+days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials
+for the record, subject to the length limitation in the rules.
+ Chairman Engel. Let me start by saying that the
+humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is simply heartbreaking.
+Ninety percent of Venezuelans are living in poverty, more than
+1 in 10 children suffer from malnutrition, and nearly 10
+percent of the country's population of 31 million has fled
+overseas. What makes it even more heartbreaking is that this
+crisis is entirely manmade. Venezuela should be one of the
+wealthiest and most prosperous countries in the hemisphere; it
+once was. But the corruption, incompetence, and mismanagement
+of Nicolas Maduro, and Hugo Chavez before him, have driven that
+country off of the edge of a cliff. The blame lies squarely
+with the crooked officials who have repressed the Venezuelan
+people for years, doing everything from throwing political
+opponents in jail to rigging elections, to gunning down
+protesters in the street.
+ Now some consider it a good sound bite to say that
+Venezuela represents the failure of socialism, but we should be
+honest that Venezuela is not a socialist country. It is a
+kleptocracy. It is a cruel and oppressive regime, pocketing
+every dollar it can, even if it means that the country's people
+are literally starving to death.
+ Nowhere is Nicolas Maduro's disregard for his fellow
+Venezuelans clearer than his decision to block humanitarian aid
+from entering the country last week at the Colombia-Venezuela
+border. This was a disgrace, and we need to keep looking for
+ways to get this assistance to those who need it without
+provoking a confrontation that could lead to the loss of life.
+The Venezuelan people deserve better. They deserve the future
+they choose for themselves and their country.
+ So, our question is, how do we help them attain that
+future? How do we stand with the people of Venezuela as they
+seek a peaceful democratic transition?
+ First, governments around the world, and especially here in
+our neighborhood, need to support the Venezuelan National
+Assembly and Juan Guaido they work toward free and
+fair elections, elections that must be monitored by credible
+international observers, including the OAS, the Organization of
+American States. The EU-Latin America contact group can play a
+potentially crucial role in laying the groundwork for these
+elections in an area where our own administration can provide
+financial and political support.
+ What about U.S. policy more broadly? I will credit the
+administration. In the last few weeks, we have seen good
+multilateral engagement to grapple with this crisis. I am glad
+the White House rejects Nicolas Maduro. I think we should
+reject authoritarians, regardless of the ideology, and that
+would include despots like Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un.
+ But I do worry about the President's saber rattling, his
+hints that the U.S. military intervention remains an option. I
+want to make clear to our witnesses, and to everyone else
+watching, U.S. military intervention is not an option. Congress
+decides when, where, and how the U.S. military is used around
+the world, and Congress would not support military intervention
+in Venezuela.
+ Venezuela's neighbors feel the same way. Just last week,
+Colombia's Deputy Foreign Minister said that, and I quote him,
+``In no way would the Colombian government permit or agree with
+any type of military intervention,'' unquote, in Venezuela.
+ With respect to new sanctions on the PDVSA, I appreciate
+the need to squeeze Maduro, but the White House must think
+through the potential repercussions that these sanctions could
+have on the Venezuelan people if Maduro does not leave office
+in the coming weeks. We need to continually evaluate their
+effectiveness.
+ My biggest concern about the administration's policy is
+what appears to be missing. What are we going to do about the
+more than 3 million Venezuelans who have already left the
+country? This has become Latin America's biggest migration
+crisis in recent history, and I fear the United States may make
+things worse.
+ For starters, we should be taking in more Venezuelan
+refugees, but our admission numbers are at their lowest in
+recent history. Worse, the immigration policies of the White
+House have resulted in more Venezuelans being deported back to
+Venezuela, and that is like sending people back into a burning
+building.
+ The President could fix that with the stroke of a pen. He
+could grant temporary protected status, or TPS, to Venezuelans
+living in the United States. I hope he does so. And I have also
+cosponsored a bill written by Representative Soto that would
+take this step.
+ There is more we can do legislatively. Mr. McCaul and I
+have spent the last 2 weeks trying to draft a bipartisan
+resolution on this matter. We were about 95 percent of the way
+there, but hit a roadblock, similar to the Senate, on how to
+deal with questions about the use of force in Venezuela. This
+is a policy difference, and it is a debate worth having,
+including during this hearing.
+ We also have pending a few substantive bills introduced by
+Representatives Mucarsel-Powell, Shalala, and Wasserman
+Schultz, that would help alleviate the humanitarian crisis and
+dial up pressure on Maduro. I hope we are able to move them
+forward during our next markup.
+ For now, I am eager to hear from our witnesses to get a
+fuller picture of the administration's approach to this
+volatile situation. But, first, let me yield to my friend, our
+ranking minority member, Mr. Michael McCaul of Texas, for an
+opening comments he may have.
+ Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ When Nicolas Maduro was handpicked by Hugo Chavez in 2013,
+it was clear that he would follow in his socialist dictatorship
+footsteps. Since that time, Maduro's policies, rampant
+corruption, and violent crackdowns on peaceful political
+dissent have turned Venezuela into a failed State.
+Hyperinflation has skyrocketed, food and medicine are scarce,
+and, according to the United Nations, up to 3 million have fled
+the country since 2014.
+ Last week, a fuel tanker and two shipping containers were
+placed on a bridge to block the delivery of desperately needed
+humanitarian aid, as seen on the screen. This act highlights
+how evil the Maduro regime really is.
+[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ The current crisis highlights the horrifying impact of
+socialism. Those who continue to preach or show sympathy do not
+understand its history and the abject suffering it has caused.
+Let us be clear, the suffering of the Venezuelan people at the
+hands of the Maduro regime is not caused only by its ideology.
+The Maduro regime is full of criminals that oversee a mafia
+State backed by U.S. adversaries like, Russia, China, and Iran,
+and is linked to drug trafficking and other illicit activities.
+ Today, the people of Venezuela have had enough, and over
+the last month they have started to take back their country
+that they love. Inspired by Juan Guaido, leader of the National
+Assembly and Interim President, millions of protesters have
+rallied in the streets across the country and stood up to the
+Maduro dictatorship. Bolstered by the leadership of the United
+States, many nations around the world, including most Latin
+American and European countries, are standing with them, as the
+TV monitor shows.
+[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ I commend the President for recognizing Juan Guaido as the
+legitimate Interim President, for supporting his efforts to
+call for free and fair elections, and for imposing sanctions
+that hold the regime responsible for their criminal actions.
+ This week, I will be introducing a resolution. I continue
+to work with the chairman in a bipartisan manner to condemn the
+criminal actions of Nicolas Maduro and countries like Cuba,
+Russia, China, Iran, and Syria for supporting his regime. It
+also clearly recognizes Juan Guaido Interim President
+and urges the international community to support the
+humanitarian and economic assistance for Venezuela.
+ The Venezuelan people need to know that America is on their
+side, but it should also be known that we do not aim to choose
+their next leader. We simply want the conditions that would
+allow the people to choose for themselves. Our role must be a
+supportive one, but one that stands for universal principles of
+freedom and democracy. And today's hearing will allow us to
+discuss how we can play that role to the best of our ability.
+ In January, I was pleased that the President and Secretary
+Pompeo called on Eliot Abrams to serve as Special Envoy for
+Venezuela. As a seasoned diplomat who has served in numerous
+foreign policy and national security positions, I believe that
+Mr. Abrams is the right man for the job. And I look forward to
+hearing his testimony, as well as the testimony of the other
+experts here today.
+ I believe this is an issue that both parties can come
+together on and do what is best for the people of Venezuela to
+support this noble cause.
+ With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you very much.
+ It is now my pleasure to introduce our witnesses.
+ Mr. Elliott Abrams is the U.S. Special Representative for
+Venezuela at the U.S. Department of State. He is currently on
+leave at the Council on Foreign Relations, where he serves as a
+senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies in Washington, DC. Mr.
+Abrams served as Assistant Secretary of State in the Reagan
+Administration and as the Senior Director of the National
+Security Council for Near East and North Africa Affairs under
+the George W. Bush Administration. I love his first name, even
+though he spells it incorrectly.
+ [Laughter.]
+ And I look forward to hearing what he has to say today.
+ Ms. Sandra Oudkirk is the Deputy Assistant Secretary for
+Energy Diplomacy. Ms. Oudkirk is a career member of the Senior
+Foreign Service. From 2017 to 2018, she served as the Acting
+Deputy Assistant Secretary for Threat Finance and Sanctions in
+the Bureau of Economics and Business Affairs. Her previous
+overseas assignments include consular assignments in Taipei, at
+the U.S. Embassy in Dublin, Deputy Principal Officer in
+Istanbul, and Narcotics Affairs Section Chief in Jamaica.
+ Mr. Steve Olive is Acting Assistant Administrator for
+USAID's Latin America and Caribbean Bureau. Mr. Olive served as
+the Acting Director of the Foreign Service Center in the Office
+of Human Capital and Talent Management from 2017 to 2018.
+Previously, he served as Deputy Mission Director for Somalia,
+Deputy Mission Director for Haiti, as well as numerous other
+roles across nearly two decades at USAID.
+ We are grateful for your service and your time this
+morning.
+ All witnesses' testimony will be included in the record of
+this hearing.
+ And now, I would like to recognize our witnesses for 5
+minutes each. We will start with Mr. Abrams.
+
+ STATEMENT OF ELLIOTT ABRAMS, U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR
+ VENEZUELA, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
+
+ Mr. Abrams. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Engel, Ranking
+Member McCaul, members of the committee, thank you for the
+opportunity to testify on our efforts to restore democracy in
+Venezuela.
+ [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
+ Chairman Engel. OK. The Chair will remind all persons in
+the audience that any manifestation of approval or disapproval
+of proceedings is in violation of the rules of the House and
+its committees.
+ Mr. Abrams----
+ Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
+ Chairman Engel [continuing]. I apologize. Please continue.
+ Mr. Abrams. Venezuela is at a crossroads. Over the past
+month, we have witnessed a massive outpouring of hope and
+courage and tenacity by the Venezuelan people. We saw it again
+yesterday, as they have taken to the streets to protest that
+has brought them nothing but poverty and misery and repression.
+ They have placed their hopes in a young, dynamic, and
+legitimate leader, Juan Guaido, to lead them through a
+transition to democracy. And we join the Venezuelan people in
+this effort.
+ Under the Maduro regime, the situation inside Venezuela
+will only get worse. Venezuela has become the most violent
+country in the world. Hyperinflation is spiraling out of
+control and will reach a million percent or more. There is
+widespread hunger. Communicable diseases that are easily
+preventable are resurging once again.
+ [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
+ Chairman Engel. The Chair will remind all persons in the
+audience, if we have to clear the hearing of spectators, we
+will do it.
+ [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
+ OK. I want to again say the Chair will remind everyone that
+any manifestation of approval or disapproval of proceedings is
+in violation of the rules of the House and its committees. If
+this continues, we will have to just clear out the hearing room
+of people who are here. It is unfortunate, but, apparently,
+there are some people who only believe they are the only ones
+who should be heard. The last time I looked, we were a
+democracy and everyone has the right to be heard.
+ So, please continue, Mr. Abrams.
+ Mr. Abrams. And oil production has fallen from 3 million
+barrels a day to about a million. It will probably go down to
+about 500,000 by the end of the year.
+ More than 3.5 million Venezuelans, as you have said, Mr.
+Chairman and Mr. McCaul, have been forced to flee their country
+and spread throughout the region in search of food and medicine
+and work and protection.
+ The light in all this darkness is Venezuela's National
+Assembly, the last democratic institution in Venezuela. Interim
+President Juan Guaido has provided new hope to those who want
+to return to a free and democratic Venezuela. Through his
+efforts, we look forward to a democratic and multiparty
+transition, an economic recovery that benefits all, and
+competitive, free, and fair Presidential elections, truly
+representative of the will of the people.
+ We have always recognized that the solution to Venezuela's
+political and economic crisis must be led and achieved by the
+Venezuelan people. The U.S. Government role is to support that
+effort.
+ And as we meet today, Mr. Chairman, the State Department
+and its interagency partners are hard at work responding to
+Interim President Guaido's call for international humanitarian
+assistance. We invite international partners to join us in
+helping to fill warehouses and assistance centers with basic
+supplies the Venezuelan people so desperately need. We also
+continue our implementation of over $140 million in existing
+programming to address the regional humanitarian crisis.
+ As you have said, Maduro and his cronies are conspiring to
+prevent this lifesaving assistance from reaching the Venezuelan
+people. But, of course, those at the top of the regime are
+well-fed. They impose misery on the Venezuelan people, but they
+do not share it.
+ The United States has effectively levied individual and
+sectoral sanctions on the Maduro regime. We have exponentially
+increased the cost of doing business for the regime in the gold
+sector, the financial sector, now in the oil sector, the
+combination of which has created enormous pressure on Maduro
+and his band of thieves. We have frozen bank accounts. We have
+revoked visas of those who benefit from their corruption and
+complicity.
+ And this is not a U.S. effort alone. It is now more than 50
+democracies in this hemisphere and around the world. The
+Venezuelan desire for freedom has galvanized the global effort
+on behalf of Interim President Guaido.
+ As a result of this growing pressure, there is a storm
+brewing inside the Maduro regime that will eventually bring it
+to an end. While it is impossible to predict the moment this
+will happen, we believe the current political and economic
+environment is unsustainable and that he will not be able to
+weather it much longer.
+ For those remaining supporters of the regime, we have one
+simple message: your time is up. A new, free, and prosperous
+Venezuela will rise, and your fellow citizens will remember who
+stood by them in their struggle.
+ This includes especially the armed forces who will be
+needed in the future to build a secure Venezuela where law and
+order defeat criminality and violence. Now is the time for the
+armed forces to support the Venezuelan people and reclaim their
+own legitimacy.
+ Over the next weeks and months, we will continue our
+pressure against Maduro and his inner circle. Last week, I
+announced visa restrictions and revocations on members of the
+illegitimate Constituent Assembly. Today, we can add we have
+imposed visa restrictions and revoked visas on members of the
+TSJ, the illegitimate supreme court.
+ But we will also provide off-ramps to those who will do
+what is right for the Venezuelan people. We will support
+Venezuela's Interim President, the National Assembly, the new
+government, and its aspirations to create a new Venezuela. We
+will continue pressing for humanitarian assistance delivery
+with the help of regional partners and the international
+community.
+ And we are hopeful and confident that the Venezuelan people
+will succeed in their quest for liberty. And when they do
+achieve this monumental goal, it will show despots and
+dictators not only in our hemisphere, but in the rest of the
+world that the will of the people for freedom will prevail over
+those who try to suppress it.
+ Mr. Chairman, thank you for inviting me here today, and
+thank you for the continuing interest and support that this
+committee has shown, bipartisan interest, in supporting the
+struggle for freedom in Venezuela.
+ Thank you.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Abrams follows:]
+
+ [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ [Audience members interrupt hearing.]
+ Chairman Engel. The Chair will remind all persons in the
+audience that any manifestations of approval or disapproval of
+proceedings is in violation of the rules of the House and
+committees.
+ OK. Ms. Oudkirk.
+
+STATEMENT OF SANDRA OUDKIRK, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU
+ OF ENERGY RESOURCES, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
+
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Chairman Engel, Ranking Member McCaul----
+ Chairman Engel. Can you push the microphone a little
+closer? Good.
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Chairman Engel, Ranking Member McCaul, and
+members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to
+testify today.
+ On January 28th, the United States designated Petroleos de
+Venezuela, S.A., PDVSA, under Executive Order 13850. This
+action extends to entities that are majority-owned by PDVSA.
+These new sanctions are intended to place pressure on the
+illegitimate former Maduro regime, minimize its receipt of
+revenue from the United States, and safeguard the U.S.
+financial system. The designation of PDVSA will also preserve
+Venezuela's national assets for the Venezuelan people.
+ The United States is holding accountable those responsible
+for Venezuela's tragic decline. As Special Representative
+Abrams noted, under the former Maduro regime, Venezuelan oil
+production steadily declined due to mismanagement, corruption,
+and a lack of investment.
+ PDVSA has long been associated with allegations of
+corruption and a variety of schemes designed to embezzle
+billions of dollars for the personal gain of corrupt Venezuelan
+officials and businessmen. These sanctions aim to prevent the
+illegitimate Maduro regime and other corrupt actors from
+further enriching themselves at the expense of the Venezuelan
+people.
+ Concurrent with this action, Treasury's Office of Foreign
+Assets Control issued general licenses that authorized certain
+transactions and activities with PDVSA to help mitigate
+unintended consequences on U.S. companies, interests, and
+allies. These licenses provide equal treatment to U.S.
+refineries that import Venezuelan crude oil. Any payments made
+to PDVSA must, however, be made into a blocked interest-bearing
+account located in the United States. These funds will be
+preserved for the people of Venezuela.
+ CITGO, a wholly owned U.S. subsidiary of PDVSA, is
+authorized to continue business operations for the next 6
+months. However, this license does not extend to dealings with
+PDVSA. The license for U.S. companies operating in Venezuela
+will allow them to continue operations with minimal exceptions.
+The oil sector is an integral part of the Venezuelan economy
+and its revival will be essential to the country's economic
+recovery.
+ We have engaged allies, including those in other regions,
+such as Europe and Asia, who have joint ventures with PDVSA in
+Venezuela, on the goals and objectives of these sanctions. We
+are working to avoid disruptions in vulnerable energy sectors
+in the Caribbean and Central America in light of PDVSA's
+integrated role in those local and regional energy markets.
+ The United States continues to work with oil producers and
+consumers all over the world to ensure access to reliable and
+affordable energy supplies. We believe disruptions are unlikely
+since oil markets are adequately supplied. And U.S. oil
+producers are a key reason why markets are well supplied. Over
+the past year, U.S. crude oil production increased by nearly 2
+million barrels a day and exports increased by a million
+barrels a day. This added to market liquidity. U.S. production
+and exports are poised to continue to grow over the coming
+months.
+ And so, in closing, I would like to note that we are
+carefully considering ongoing U.S. involvement in, and links
+with, the Venezuelan energy sector, as we balance our effort to
+support the restoration of democracy and the eventual
+rebuilding of Venezuela. U.S. sanctions need not be permanent.
+They are intended to change behavior. The path to sanctions
+relief for PDVSA is through the expeditious transfer of control
+of the company so that it is no longer a tool for the former
+Maduro regime's illegitimate uses.
+ Thank you for your attention, and I am happy to take any
+questions you may have.
+ [The prepared statement of Ms. Oudkirk follows:]
+
+ [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you, Ms. Oudkirk.
+ Mr. Olive.
+
+ STATEMENT OF STEVE OLIVE, ACTING ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR,
+ BUREAU FOR LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, U.S. AGENCY FOR
+ INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
+
+ Mr. Olive. Chairman Engel, Ranking Member McCaul, and
+members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to
+testify today on this critical and timely subject. I am
+grateful for the committee's longstanding bipartisan support
+for Latin America and the Caribbean, especially Venezuela.
+ I am proud of the work that we have done to help
+Venezuelans and the neighboring communities that are hosting
+them. Administrator Green and I met some of these Venezuelans
+who had fled their homeland when we visited Cucuta, Colombia
+last July.
+ However, we know that humanitarian assistance alone will
+not address the root causes driving people away from Venezuela.
+Lasting political and economic reforms are the only sustainable
+solutions to this crisis. This is a pivotal moment in the
+history of Venezuela. The people are standing up against the
+dictator; they are not alone. As USAID Administrator Mark Green
+said, and I quote, ``We proudly stand with the people of
+Venezuela who are yearning for freedom and a true democracy.''
+End quote.
+ Venezuelans have endured steady erosion of human rights and
+fundamental freedoms under the corrupt and repressive Maduro
+regime. We have seen widespread shortages of essential food and
+medicine. There have been major outbreaks of diseases like
+diphtheria, measles, and malaria, which had previously been
+under control or eliminated.
+ On January 23d, the people peacefully took to the streets
+to protest against Maduro's regime. The National Assembly, the
+only legitimate body, has asserted its constitutional authority
+and put power back in where it belongs-in the hands of the
+Venezuelan people.
+ The struggle for democracy in Venezuela is led by the
+Venezuelan people themselves. I am proud that USAID has a long
+tradition of standing by Venezuelans who have continued to
+assert their democratic rights. USAID supports local human
+rights defenders, civil society, independent media, electoral
+oversight, and the democratically elected National Assembly.
+ Over the past 5 years, we have provided close to $40
+million in democracy assistance to these groups, including the
+planned $15 million in Fiscal Year 2018 funding, which cleared
+Congress yesterday. Thank you.
+ I salute the bravery of the Venezuelans who have kept up
+the fight for democracy even when their cause seemed nearly
+impossible. USAID Administrator Mark Green and I have spoken by
+phone with Interim President Guaidod have met with
+Venezuelan ambassadors Vecchio and Borges to coordinate USAID's
+humanitarian response and support to the National Assembly, as
+they restore democracy and prosperity in Venezuela.
+ Our most immediate priority will be to get food and
+medicine to those who need it. USAID will always be ready and
+willing to help vulnerable Venezuelans. When Interim President
+Guaidoquested urgent humanitarian assistance from the United
+States, Secretary of State Pompeo announced that we are ready
+to provide initial humanitarian assistance to the people of
+Venezuela. USAID has prepositioned food, nutritional
+supplements, hygiene kits, and medical supplies in Cucuta. The
+U.S. is coordinating with Interim President Guaidod
+his team of experts, governments in the region, and
+humanitarian partners on the logistics of deploying aid, to
+mobilize a response that is efficient and safe.
+ Since Fiscal Year 2017, the United States has provided
+approximately $140 million, including nearly $97 million in
+humanitarian assistance and approximately $43 million in
+development assistance, to support affected countries'
+emergency efforts and build their long-term capacity to host
+the more than 3 million people who have fled Venezuela.
+ Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member McCaul, members of the
+committee, thank you again for this opportunity to testify
+today. I thank you for your continued bipartisan support and
+look forward to engaging with you further as the United States
+helps the people of Venezuela to return to peace, prosperity,
+and democratic and citizen-responsive governance. Thank you.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Olive follows:]
+ [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you very much, Mr. Olive.
+ Let me start the questioning, and let me ask Mr. Abrams: as
+I said in my opening statement, I am certainly willing to give
+credit where it is due in terms of elements of the
+administration's approach to Venezuela. But my biggest concern
+about the policy is what seems to me is clearly missing, and
+that is an effort to deal with the 3 million Venezuelans who
+have fled the country. The administration has pushed countries
+in the region to open their homes and hearts to Venezuelans,
+and I certainly support this effort. But how can we call on
+other countries to admit Venezuelans while continuing to close
+the doors of our own country to these same individuals?
+ So, my question is, will the Trump administration reassess
+its historically low refugee admission numbers, and will
+President Trump grant temporary protected status, or TPS, to
+the many Venezuelans here in the United States who should not
+be forced to return to Maduro's Venezuela? I would urge you to
+do so. I would like to hear what you have to say about it.
+ Mr. Abrams. I cannot speak about the broader refugee
+question. It is just not within my own remit. The question of
+Venezuelans, in particular, the doors are not closed,
+certainly, for those who have a reasonable fear of persecution
+and can apply for political asylum.
+ But, on the broader question, I think you are raising an
+important question, and it is one that I intend to discuss with
+the Secretary when he completes the current trip to Europe, the
+question of Venezuelans who are in the United States.
+ Chairman Engel. I hope we can continue to have dialog on it
+because I think it is really, really important. The situation,
+as you have said, with the refugees should really be paramount
+or at least upfront in terms of things that we are doing and
+things that we could do to help diffuse this crisis. So, I am
+going to pursue that, and I hope that we can get some more
+answers.
+ Let me ask you again, Mr. Abrams, and maybe Ms. Oudkirk can
+also comment: when it comes to the new sanctions on the
+Venezuelan oil sector, I certainly understand the need to
+squeeze Maduro, but I hope that the White House has thought
+through the potential impact that these sanctions could have on
+the Venezuelan people if Maduro, by some reason, manages to
+remain in power. So, has the administration assessed the
+humanitarian impact of these sanctions on the Venezuelan people
+if there is not a quick transition? Have you considered the
+impact on U.S. refineries and their employees which process
+Venezuelan oil? And can you please share those assessments with
+us?
+ Mr. Abrams. On the humanitarian impact, the money that the
+United States was paying to PDVSA was not going to the
+Venezuelan people. I mean, if it were, the kind of starvation,
+the kind of reappearance of communicable diseases would not be
+taking place. So, I do not think the sanctions alone are going
+to have that impact. But, in any event, we want to do a very
+big humanitarian surge with the many allies we have in this
+effort to help the Venezuelan people to make sure that their
+own situation is not worsened.
+ Chairman Engel. OK. I hope that we can continue to have
+further dialog on it.
+ Ms. Oudkirk, do you have a comment on that?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Yes, Mr. Chairman. On your question related to
+the impact on the United States, on refineries, we have been
+looking at that very closely and we are in very close contact
+with the 12 Gulf Coast refineries that imported the majority of
+Venezuelan crude oil that came into the United States. There
+are a number of license applications pending with OFAC that
+will provide some specific relief, and we at State are working,
+in concert with our Treasury colleagues, to process those as
+quickly as possible. And we are committed to remaining in
+contact with U.S. industry as the situation progresses.
+ Chairman Engel. All right. Thank you very much.
+ I would now like to call on Mr. McCaul, our ranking member.
+ Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ Mr. Abrams, I think we really have an historic opportunity
+to transform what has been a socialist dictatorship that has
+been a humanitarian crisis into a democracy supported by
+freedom and the people, and at the same time, I think for the
+first time in decades, have an influence on Cuba and the
+Western Hemisphere. As I look at the Russians in Venezuela and
+Iran, the Chinese, that worries me about our backyard.
+ But I want to ask you this question: how important is it
+for the U.S. Congress to recognize the legitimacy of the
+Interim President Guaido?
+ Mr. Abrams. Mr. McCaul, I think it would be very important.
+I mean, we have 51 countries, including the United States now,
+that recognize him as the interim legitimate President of
+Venezuela. I think it would be really valuable for the Congress
+to join that crowd.
+ Mr. McCaul. I will continue to work in that effort with the
+chairman.
+ Let me ask you about the military. I think the majority of
+the military supports the people and President Guaido. I think,
+unfortunately, the ones at the top, there is corruption; there
+is narco-terrorism, cartels. How do we get the military to move
+away from Maduro to support the people and President Guaido?
+ Mr. Abrams. This is the toughest question. And our answer
+thus far has been, first, to pressure them, sanctioning many
+members of the upper ranks. Second, to tell them continually
+that there are off-ramps if they decide to side with the people
+of Venezuela. Thus far, obviously, that has not happened except
+in a few isolated cases.
+ But we are hearing a lot of discontent in the military. I
+mean, for one thing, if you are a general and look down at the
+ranks, you know that your own people in the army are starving.
+And what about their brothers and sisters and mothers and
+fathers? So, we think that this opinion is spreading within the
+military that the current situation is untenable. We hope that
+there will be a decision on the part of many in the military,
+first, not to support the Maduro regime, but, second, not to
+block desperately needed humanitarian aid.
+ Mr. McCaul. I was impressed by your optimism about the
+situation, that eventually that will happen.
+ Mr. Olive, on the humanitarian aid issue, we saw the
+pictures of the roads being blocked off by Maduro, not allowing
+the humanitarian assistance from the Lima Group that agreed to
+send this down there. We just met with the President of
+Colombia, and he was talking about this very issue. How can we
+get that assistance into Venezuela to help these desperate
+people? And have you thought about possibly using not just the
+land borders, but the sea as well?
+ Mr. Olive. Thank you, Ranking Member McCaul.
+ We are, indeed, looking for ways of distributing the
+assistance safely and effectively within the country. We are in
+daily communication with Interim President Guaido and his team
+on finding out those avenues to do so. We are also committed to
+prepositioning goods and supplies in other parts, if that is
+necessary. We also are looking at scenarios of flying things
+in, as the situation permits.
+ But, right now today, the Maduro regime is not allowing
+access. And we do hope that, through the diplomatic efforts we
+are making and the internal efforts by the Interim President
+Guaidod his team, we will change that scenario
+shortly.
+ Mr. McCaul. Well, and I think as the people of Venezuela
+see what their, I would say, illegitimate President is doing
+and what the military is doing to block this humanitarian aid,
+that they will rise up even more so, and hopefully, return this
+country to a democracy. It could be such a great country with
+such great natural resources.
+ And so, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you, Mr. McCaul. Mr. Sherman?
+ Mr. Sherman. Wherever Russia goes, people flee. We have 3
+million Syrians who have left their country and nearly the same
+number of Venezuelans.
+ There is talk here of Venezuela being a socialist country.
+I would say that various governments in Scandinavia have
+adopted policies of democratic socialism, and I do not think
+there is anyone in this room that would call the Maduro regime
+democratic socialist.
+ We have got a situation where Russia expects to be repaid.
+Mr. Abrams, what steps are we considering to support an action
+by the Venezuelan people to say, ``OK, we owe you so much minus
+the $2, $3, $10 trillion of harm you did to our country by
+supporting this criminal Maduro; therefore, you only owe us $1
+trillion instead of $2 trillion.''? Mr. Abrams, are we
+discussing with the Russians how we can make it plain that in
+the permanent future of the Venezuelan government that they do
+not have to pay Russia and that they will not suffer any
+demerits in their credit rating for Western agencies and
+Western banks?
+ Mr. Abrams. We have begun to have those discussions.
+Primarily, of course, it would be led by Treasury. But the
+interim government, the National Assembly, has said that they
+would repay debts. Some of those debts I think were never
+approved by the National Assembly. Ultimately, it is a decision
+with most of these that they are going to have to make.
+ Mr. Sherman. But have we put the Russians on notice that we
+would support, and require our banks to support, a decision by
+the Venezuelan government to offset that by trillions of
+dollars of claims against Russia, and that we would prohibit,
+we might choose to prohibit our banks from looking at any
+credit rating that was impaired by failure to repay Russia?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not believe that exact message----
+ Mr. Sherman. I hope you will.
+ In this room we were told that Turkey is a great friend of
+the United States, and therefore, we should turn a blind eye to
+history and not recognize the Armenian genocide. Mr. Abrams,
+can you work inside the administration so that they have an
+understanding that Turkey is not a friend of ours here in our
+own hemisphere, and that, accordingly, the administration would
+announce that it would not object to this committee, once
+again, as it has in the past at the committee level, passing
+the Armenian genocide resolution?
+ Mr. Abrams. You are going to get me in trouble here with
+these questions.
+ Mr. Sherman. That is the job.
+ Mr. Abrams. That is the idea.
+ The role that Turkey is playing in Venezuela is to give
+all-out support to the Maduro regime. There are very few
+countries that are doing that. Turkey has decided to align
+itself with Russia/Cuba in taking that position. And I will
+certainly take your message back to the Department.
+ Mr. Sherman. Are you directly in contact with the Turkish
+government regarding their policies in Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. I am not personally.
+ Mr. Sherman. I hope you would talk to those who are----
+ Mr. Abrams. Yes.
+ Mr. Sherman [continuing]. And make it plain that the
+administration, if you just go neutral on this, Congress will
+be the conscience of this country.
+ And we also have Venezuela reportedly owe China $20
+billion. I know that China's policy toward Maduro is different
+than that of Russia, but what is China doing now to help the
+legitimate government of Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. They are not doing anything to help Mr.----
+ Mr. Sherman. Are they providing any additional funds to
+Maduro?
+ Mr. Abrams. No. My information is that they will not lend
+any more money because they are worried about getting back what
+they have already lent. And the message that we have passed to
+them is, if you continue to back Maduro and the economy of
+Venezuela descends further, you will never get paid back.
+ Mr. Sherman. And I would point out that countries repay
+loans because they fear they will not be able to borrow more
+because of the credit ratings that come from basically New
+York, and that there may be times when we need to instruct
+credit-rating agencies and banks not to regard as a demerit a
+failure to repay a criminal loan.
+ I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Smith.
+ Mr. Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ Welcome to our very distinguished witnesses, and it is
+great to see Elliott Abrams who has done a tremendous job for
+decades.
+ Let me just ask, first, on sex tourism, there are about 3
+million people who have become refugees and an undetermined
+number are IDPs. Many are along the border of Colombia. We know
+that the gangs very often turn these women into sex slaves. So,
+my question is, what are we doing to try to combat that?
+Venezuela has been a Tier 3 country for many, many years,
+including currently, an egregious violator, and that is even
+before the latest crisis.
+ Second, as was pointed out, Mr. Olive, 300,000 children are
+at risk of death from malnutrition. You underscore the
+resurgence of once eradicated diseases like diphtheria. I am
+wondering, have vaccinations ceased in Venezuela? I remember in
+the 1980's President Duarte in El Salvador had days of
+tranquility. And I have actually traveled down when--and
+Elliott will remember this very well--when Duarte and the FMLN
+had days of tranquility to vaccinate the kids because so many
+were dying from preventable diseases. Would days of tranquility
+be perhaps a way forward to get these kids vaccinated?
+ Let me also point out that the Foro Penal, the Venezuelan
+human rights group, said, between January 21st and 31st, the
+number of Venezuelan political prisoners jumped from 273 to
+966. How many of those are being tortured? And why has not the
+U.N. been even more outspoken against this horrific
+mistreatment of these people, including young people,
+adolescents?
+ And finally, The Wall Street Journal reported that the
+government of Juan Guaido has held debt negotiations here in
+Washington with China. Are we a part of that? Are we
+encouraging it?
+ Not much time, but if you could answer those questions?
+ Mr. Abrams. Let me just begin on the trafficking of
+persons. We get no cooperation from the Maduro regime, of
+course. There are efforts--and Mr. Olive can talk about that--
+on the Colombian side of the border to offer not only food and
+medicine, but some protection as well.
+ Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman.
+ And that is absolutely correct. On the border areas,
+especially in Colombia that is, our funding does help with that
+issue. It is a very large issue that we cannot control
+completely, but our programs do address that.
+ Mr. Smith. Can you provide for the record some elaboration
+on that, and how well the TIP office is engaging on this as
+well?
+ Mr. Olive. I will defer to State for the TIP offices. But,
+for our programs that we are providing in Colombia, they
+include identifying vulnerable people who might be vulnerable
+for trafficking, working with youth on the issue, et cetera, as
+part of the programming.
+ Sir, in terms of vaccines, yes, it is true that inside
+Venezuela there are less and less medicines and vaccines
+available, and therefore, less children and other people being
+vaccinated. We have seen an increase, then, in these diseases,
+as a result. We are monitoring that carefully in Colombia,
+again, as part of our assistance. The Colombian medical system
+is very concerned about being overwhelmed and having these
+diseases to be on the increase in their country as well. And
+so, that is part of our assistance package, and eventually, the
+assistance package that goes into Venezuela will also include
+vaccines.
+ Mr. Smith. Did you want to comment on the debt issue and
+whether or not the Chinese negotiations with the----
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not believe there are any negotiations,
+using that terms narrowly.
+ Mr. Smith. OK. Talks?
+ Mr. Abrams. Discussions, sending of messages, have taken
+place. There have been some reports in the press, also, about
+additional talks that the Chinese have denied. And I have not
+had a chance to find out whether they have actually taken
+place.
+ Mr. Smith. If you could speak to the use of torture? And is
+the Convention on Torture and the experts at the U.N. treaty
+body looking into this? Anybody know?
+ Mr. Abrams. There are many reports of use of torture in
+Venezuela, but they have not permitted the various U.N. Special
+Rapporteurs to come in for quite a while. So, that is one of
+the things we would like to see, for the regime to admit the
+Special Rapporteur on Torture.
+ Mr. Olive. Congressman, your committee and Congress has
+provided us with increasing assistance to Venezuela, and it
+includes defending victims of human rights and helping them on
+these issues.
+ Mr. Smith. Again, on the trafficking issue, are there any
+estimates as to how many women and/or children have been
+trafficked?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not have those. I do not know of the TIP
+office has them. We will find out and come back to you.
+ Mr. Smith. OK. I appreciate that. Thank you.
+ [The information referred to follows:]
+ Chairman Engel. We are going to have to end the
+questioning. Thank you, Mr. Smith. Mr. Meeks.
+ Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ Democracy is the key for me. And I have got a deep and long
+history with Venezuela. I do not like the fact that there is no
+democracy in Saudi Arabia. I do not like the fact that there is
+no democracy in North Korea. And I speak out about it and,
+then, some of these places, they do not have any elections. I
+do have confidence in the Venezuelan people.
+ I was back and have been involved in Venezuela when many
+were not here. I was part of a bipartisan delegation. It was
+Cass Ballenger from North Carolina, Bill Delahunt from
+Massachusetts, and myself who engaged with then-President Hugo
+Chavez. And I saw back then that individuals who were poor, who
+had never had anything from any other government, never any
+consideration, where I was on the ground to see that they, for
+the first time, were getting schools and hospitals, and getting
+their fair share under--and this President, Hugo Chavez, was
+elected in a free and fair election.
+ I have seen, because I was there; I witnessed several of
+these elections, when the United States--and this is why the
+United States cannot lead in this matter--I was there several
+times for elections and I watched people line up in a peaceful
+way and waited for hours to vote, and elected Hugo Chavez. I
+saw recall elections, and Hugo Chavez allowed the democratic
+process to continue, and he faced those recall elections and
+won, fair and square.
+ So, I, then, saw that there was an attempted coup in
+Venezuela in 2002. And as certain CIA evidence has now been
+revealed, we, the day after the coup, acknowledged the coup
+government. The people of Venezuela went back in the streets
+and demanded that their democratically elected President was
+restored.
+ So, the context and the reason why I say that is it is
+complicated and difficult for us in the United States to take
+the lead when, in fact, the Venezuelan people also know that we
+acknowledge not a democratically elected President, but we try
+to undermine them.
+ So, for me, democracy is important, and that is why I do,
+and I am worried about democracy when it has failed. And I have
+known Nicolas Maduro. We had this group called Grupo de Boston.
+And I have tried my best to try to bring both sides, opposition
+and at that time Chavistas together, and we had people working
+collectively.
+ I must admit, under the Nicolas Maduro, I have seen the
+situation continue to deteriorate, and people of Venezuela are
+suffering. And I have seen him avoid some democratic elections.
+I have seen the National Assembly get democratically elected.
+So, there is democracy in Venezuela. That is why I recognize
+the National Assembly, and the National Assembly speaks, for
+me, for the people of Venezuela, which is why our focus should
+be on having free and fair elections in Venezuela.
+ I am concerned about the conversations that the President
+is having with the threat of sending military into Venezuela.
+What our focus should be is to make sure that we are doing all
+that we can, supporting the Lima countries, the OAS, and the
+others, to have a free and fair election conducted, because the
+Venezuelan people believe in democracy. And that is why you see
+the National Assembly now where the opposition is.
+ And I am continuing to talk with members of the opposition,
+members of the National Assembly, and members of the military,
+et cetera, about working together, so that we can have a free
+and fair election, so that the voices, not of the United
+States, but of the people of Venezuela is clearly heard.
+ I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you, Mr. Meeks. Mr. Wilson.
+ Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ And thank all of our witnesses for being here today.
+ It is really sad to see one of the greatest countries of
+our hemisphere, Venezuela, which was one of the wealthiest
+countries of Latin America. I know that over the years our
+families had wonderful associations with Venezuelans that is
+just so reassuring. And I believe, too, in the people of
+Venezuela.
+ And that is why I am very grateful that the National
+Assembly has elected President Juan Guaido, and the recognition
+by 51 countries of his presidency, and this is on behalf of the
+people of Venezuela.
+ Additionally, I am very grateful for the United States
+Agency for International Development, Mr. Olive. People need to
+know how effective USAID has been around the world, helping
+persons in relief efforts, and, in particular, at this time,
+$97 million has already been provided; another $20 million from
+the State Department. But, of course, it is very clear that the
+aid has been blocked by the Maduro regime.
+ And so, what efforts are being made to get around this
+blockage, Mr. Olive? And what can be done to help get more aid
+to the people of Venezuela?
+ Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
+ We are on a daily basis with calls with members of the
+interim government of Guaido's regime, of his presidency
+talking about ways we can get aid into the country. There are
+many scenarios being put forth. We are overturning every stone
+to see what is possible. There are diplomatic efforts that I am
+sure the Special Representative can also speak to. But, rest
+assured, daily we are trying to find a way to get this
+assistance to the people who need it most.
+ Mr. Wilson. And we are very fortunate, again, to have 51
+countries recognize the Guaido presidency. What efforts are
+being made internationally, not just USAID, to help the people
+of Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. There is a very broad effort. You will have
+heard, at the Ottawa meeting about a week ago, Canada announced
+$53 million in additional aid. Each day, you find one or
+another country, mostly in Europe now, announcing another
+contribution to this effort. So, it is an increasingly
+international effort.
+ Mr. Wilson. And to reassure the people of Venezuela, what
+efforts are being made that it, indeed, gets to the people of
+Venezuela, as opposed to what has occurred in the past of where
+there has been looting?
+ Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman.
+ We share that same concern, that the delivery of assistance
+must be done safely. It must be done efficiently. And those
+provisions need to be in place for us to be effective in
+delivering assistance to the Venezuelan people.
+ Mr. Abrams. I would just add that I think that is true of
+all aid, including U.N. aid, and we have looked at that, too.
+That is, the regime has used aid--first of all, they have
+stolen a good deal of it, but they have also directed it to
+their political supporters. And we are trying to make sure that
+any path of aid that goes in is not diverted either for
+corruption or for political purposes.
+ Mr. Wilson. Well, it just makes a difference for the
+people, and it is just encouraging to see bipartisan support
+for this aid.
+ Ms. Oudkirk, it has been reported that the Maduro regime is
+either transferring or selling the assets of the people of
+Venezuela, which is their gold reserves. What is the latest on
+protecting the gold reserves for the people of Venezuela?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. I am sorry, Mr. Congressman, I, unfortunately,
+do not work with gold reserves. I can take that question back,
+though.
+ Mr. Wilson. And additionally, with that, we have sanctions.
+I hope that, as you get back with me, that we identify who the
+possible purchasers are and who is facilitating this, so that
+sanctions can be in place.
+ And then, Mr. Abrams, again, thank you for your service for
+our country.
+ We know that there is drug trafficking, significant, out of
+the regime, the Maduro regime; human trafficking. What is being
+done? And also, terrorists, harboring of Hezbollah, FARC. And
+what is being done to identify this and block efforts that
+would threaten American families?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, it is very difficult when you have a
+regime that is, in fact, very much in favor of doing that. ELN,
+a guerilla group from Colombia, is protected on their side of
+the border. There is a lot of drug trafficking that benefits
+the top officials of the regime.
+ What can we do? Well, one thing we can do is sanction those
+who are involved in this. In some cases, we can prosecute
+people involved in this, and try to assemble the information.
+Because the day will come when Venezuelans will take back
+control of their own government and their own country and they
+will be able to pursue this.
+ Mr. Wilson. Thank you. We look forward to a bright future
+for Venezuela. Thank you very much.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Sires.
+ Mr. Sires. Thank you, Chairman, for holding this meeting.
+ And thank you to the witnesses that are here today.
+ Ms. Oudkirk, can you talk to me a little bit about the oil
+sanctions? I know that, in light of reports that Juan Guaido
+plans to name a new board of directors for CITGO, the process
+will require the U.S. to legally recognize the new board
+members. Would a new board have access to U.S. bank accounts
+with proceeds from Venezuela's oil sales that are being blocked
+by the sanctions?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Thank you, Mr. Congressman.
+ So, as I noted in my remarks, the key to sanctions relief
+for PDVSA is the transfer of control of that company away from
+Maduro and his cronies and to a democratically elected
+representative of the Venezuelan people.
+ With regards to CITGO, CITGO operations in the United
+States are covered by a general license that Treasury issued on
+the day the sanctions were announced. So, CITGO's operations
+here in the U.S. are continuing under that license, and that
+license covers them for 6 months from the date of announcement.
+The ban is on remitting payments back to PDVSA as long as it is
+under the illegitimate control.
+ Mr. Sires. What would a board do named by Guaido? What
+would that do if he names a new board?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. For CITGO?
+ Mr. Sires. Yes.
+ Ms. Oudkirk. I will have to get back to you on the details
+of that. I do not have the answer for you right now. I am
+sorry.
+ Mr. Sires. Mr. Abrams, do you?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, we do not want any funds to go to the
+regime. So, that would not be permitted. But I think there are
+a lot of lawyers in Washington who are making a lot of money
+trying to figure out the answer to your question.
+ Mr. Sires. Well, my daughter is lawyer. Let's not kill the
+lawyers.
+ [Laughter.]
+ Go ahead.
+ Well, you know, my thing is, if we are able to get this
+money in U.S. banks, and obviously, under the sanctions, could
+that money be used for humanitarian purposes in Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. It can. All these funds, all Venezuelan
+government funds are, in our view, rightly available to the
+legitimate Interim President, Mr. Guaido, and the National
+Assembly. So, they can use those funds to purchase additional
+humanitarian assistance.
+ There are a lot of procedures to go through to get them
+actual control of it. And they have made it clear that they
+want to be extremely careful. They are going to be accused of
+misusing the funds. So, everything has to be totally
+transparent. But, in principle, yes.
+ Mr. Sires. OK. And I know that Maduro is propped up by the
+Cubans in Venezuela. How many Cubans are really actually in
+Venezuela propping him up?
+ Mr. Abrams. To give you a round number, it is in the
+multiple thousands. It is not a few hundred. It is several
+thousand Cuban officials, including intelligence people.
+ Mr. Sires. And getting back to the money, I know that he
+made an effort to move a billion dollars into Uruguay in gold.
+And Uruguay rejected it. Did you read that article?
+ Mr. Abrams. There are continuing efforts, and some of them,
+I am sorry to say, look as if they have been successful, in
+which a private jet comes in and gold is put on it, and off it
+goes. And then, the gold is sold, and the money goes to people
+in the regime.
+ Mr. Sires. Now they are opening an account in Russia? That
+was the latest that I read. They moved the money into Russia?
+ Mr. Abrams. I have seen that information, too. Most Western
+banks, not just American banks, European banks, will not touch
+any of this. So, they need to go look for things like a Russian
+bank that will deal with it.
+ Mr. Sires. But if we prevent the money from going into
+Venezuela, where are they getting this money to move to Russia?
+Can you speak to that?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. So, I think the point of the sanctions is to
+do exactly what you just described, to keep the money in these
+blocked interest-bearing accounts in the United States, so that
+they do not flow back to Venezuela and are not, then, you
+know----
+ Mr. Sires. Disappear?
+ Ms. Oudkirk [continuing]. Disappeared. However, the
+sanctions were only announced a couple of weeks ago. So, money
+that had gone back before then is available to the illegitimate
+regime to be used for these purposes. So, the point is, from
+now going forward, keeping that money in the blocked accounts,
+so that it cannot be misused.
+ Mr. Sires. OK. Thank you very much. My time is up.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you very much. Mr. Yoho.
+ Mr. Yoho. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the panel
+being here.
+ As we know, the Maduro disastrous economy has created a
+food insecurity. Only about 30 percent of the protein
+requirements are being met. There are cases of malaria and TB
+increasing. In a failed State, you see measles, diphtheria;
+sanitation goes down. So, it is a bad situation and it is going
+to get worse.
+ Yet, over the last 10 years, Maduro--and I am going to, in
+a spirit of bipartisanship, I am going to agree with my
+colleague, Gregory Meeks about Chavez in the beginning. Because
+there were some rapid changes that did benefit the people in
+the lower tiers of the economy. However, that got absconded in
+his third and fourth term, and then, Maduro just lost it.
+ Maduro has taken over $11 billion from the Venezuelan
+people, and it is the most violent country on the planet today.
+And you think of all the things going around as far as murders
+per capita. And then, you look at who is supporting Maduro. It
+is Cuba, Russia, China, Iran, Bolivia, Turkey, certainly not
+cheerleaders of democracy or certainly America.
+ And then, I look at Cuba, and we have heard numbers over
+the course of the last few years that Maduro has Cuban security
+guards around him because he does not trust the Venezuelans. We
+have heard numbers up to 40,000 Cuban soldiers in Venezuela.
+Are they playing a role of surveillance and intimidation, in
+your experience, in the information you have, toward the
+Venezuelan people?
+ Mr. Abrams. Yes, and toward the Venezuela security forces,
+Mr. Yoho. I think you are exactly right, that they are the
+security guards directly around Maduro. And one of their really
+important roles is to spy on and surveil the security forces,
+the army, to make sure that everybody shows loyalty to Maduro.
+He does not trust his own people.
+ Mr. Yoho. You know, I am glad you brought that up, the
+surveillance. We just heard last week from a very reliable
+source that China, via ZTE, is offering their facial
+recognition to the Maduro government, so that they can control
+their people like China is doing. Russia wants that technology.
+They are going to do it. Iran wants that. And I think we are
+seeing things played out.
+ History is repeating itself with a failed State that
+creates a vacuum, that vacuum will be filled. And so, we have
+got a choice. We can allow Russia, China, Iran, Cuba, people
+that are anti-democracies, anti-American, fill that void. The
+people of Latin America, Venezuela in particular, will really
+suffer. Or we can get behind the legitimate Interim President,
+President Guaido. And with us and the 51 nations, as Mr. Wilson
+talked about, stand behind them because that is the right thing
+to do, and it is the right thing to do for the Venezuelan
+people.
+ Something came up in a question. Do the people of Venezuela
+have gun ownership rights or was that taken away by Chavez or
+Maduro?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not know the answer to that.
+ Mr. Yoho. OK.
+ Mr. Abrams. I will have to find out.
+ Mr. Yoho. But it is interesting that a socialist country
+that turns to a dictatorship does not have the means to protect
+themselves. Yet, the criminal gangs do and the narco-terrorists
+have those, and the military has those.
+ Mr. Abrams. We do know that the Maduro regime has
+distributed arms to its gangs.
+ Mr. Yoho. They have, and I think that, again, goes to just
+the breakdown of Maduro, because he knows he is not legitimate.
+And if we are going to honor legitimate elections, we know that
+President Guaido is the one that we need to follow.
+ Ms. Oudkirk, you were talking, the question came up about
+CITGO. If the legitimate President gets recognized around the
+world, President Guaido, that money that CITGO is producing, if
+we were to remove the sanctions, or keep the sanctions on, that
+money can go into escrow, cannot it, so that we know it does
+not go to Maduro? And when things get sorted out, it will go
+back to the rightful owners, the Venezuelan people, right? We
+can do that, cannot we?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Yes, Mr. Congressman. The point of the
+license, the general license that was provided for CITGO
+operations, was to allow CITGO to continue to operate here in
+the United States, and for any funds that would have been
+remitted back to the PDVSA parent in Venezuela, to be held in a
+blocked interest-bearing account here for the future use of the
+democratically elected representatives of the----
+ Mr. Yoho. Thank you. I am out of time. And I appreciate
+your expertise. Thank you.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Keating.
+ Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ Mr. Abrams, you said that there is a coalition of 51
+countries joining with us or that we are part of. How many of
+those countries have said that the use of military force is an
+option and should be on the table? How many of those other
+countries have stated that?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not know of any that have Stated it.
+ Mr. Keating. I do not, either, and that is why I asked the
+question. So, we are the only ones that have Stated that, have
+their leaders say that?
+ Mr. Abrams. We are the only one probably in a position----
+ Mr. Keating. Oh, no, that is not what I asked. I mean, the
+other thing is, Ambassador Bolton, just a couple of weeks ago,
+was seen holding a notepad and it captured ``5,000 troops to
+Colombia''. And the President, last weekend, is again stating
+that the use of U.S. military force is an option. And my
+concern is, if it were part of a coalition, we should be
+working in concert with that, not standing alone having an
+option like that on the table.
+ And I think that, as you look at our actions in that
+respect, I think, indeed, it can backfire on us. I think it
+plays right into Maduro's rhetoric about the U.S. involvement.
+And I think it is something that will not help the cause of
+that.
+ Has President Guaido, has he ever said anything or uttered
+anything about the use of U.S. military force as an option? Has
+he said that?
+ Mr. Abrams. He actually made a comment a few days ago
+relating to humanitarian----
+ Mr. Keating. No, I mean military force, I am talking about.
+ Mr. Abrams [continuing]. Related to getting humanitarian
+assistance in. But this is not the path, I think you can see,
+that the U.S. Government is pursuing.
+ Mr. Keating. Then, why are we saying it, though? That is my
+question.
+ Mr. Abrams. Because we always say it in all----
+ Mr. Keating. You know, Section 3 of the War Powers
+Resolution says the President should be consulting with us. I
+think we are doing so many things that could be helpful. We are
+working in concert with other countries. All those things are
+good. But the statement--I mean, I do not think it was a
+mistake perhaps that that notebook phrase from Ambassador
+Bolton was captured. And why would he have that on his
+notebook? Why would that come out? And why would the President
+be saying this without working in concert with the other
+countries in the coalition or without having, first, a sincere
+dialog with Congress on this matter? Doesn't that make your job
+more difficult?
+ Mr. Abrams. It has not because we always take the position
+that all options are on the table.
+ Mr. Keating. Well, perhaps that is not a good option right
+here. I believe strongly that we are hurting our cause and the
+cause of the Venezuelan people.
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, in the work that we are doing--and we are
+doing it--on the diplomatic front and on the economic front, on
+the humanitarian front, with lots of other countries, this
+issue does not get in the way.
+ Mr. Keating. Well, I think it plays right into the hands of
+the dictator that is our adversary right now. And I think it
+really undercuts the ability and our involvement with the
+Venezuelan people themselves. Because, ultimately, I think we
+all agree the resolution, if there is going to be any kind of
+significant, tangible resolution, will come at the hands of the
+Venezuelan people themselves to make that.
+ Mr. Abrams. I agree.
+ Mr. Keating. Just a quick question then. Before we
+recognized President Guaido, were there actions taken to make
+sure our embassy personnel were secure before that was uttered?
+Was there actual policy discussion before that was uttered?
+ Mr. Abrams. Yes. This is a matter of the utmost
+significance to all of us, to the Secretary. We speak to the
+charge' in Caracas literally every day. I talked to him this
+morning again about the question of security. It is on the
+minds of everybody in the Department and it was then.
+ Mr. Keating. I would suggest, too, as a final comment, that
+it is too late now, but, as we go forward, before the
+administration is talking about the use of military force in
+this situation, keeping that as an option, that they should
+have sincere discussions with this committee and with Congress,
+and then, make declarations like that.
+ I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you. Ms. Wagner.
+ Mrs. Wagner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for organizing this
+hearing.
+ And thank you to our witnesses for their time and certainly
+for their service.
+ Mr. Abrams, in keeping with the prior questioning, I can
+say that, in the wake of Maduro's abortive attempt to expel
+U.S. diplomats, the United States is negotiating with the
+Venezuelan foreign ministry to establish a U.S. interest
+office, I have been told. Mr. Abrams, can you provide an update
+on these negotiations? And again, what security measures have
+been taken to keep our diplomats safe?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, on the security measures, I wouldn't want
+to go into that at an open hearing. But the security question
+is one, again, that is on our minds every day. We are not
+negotiating an intersection. An intersection is used in a case
+where there is a government and we do not recognize that
+government. But in Venezuela there is a government we do
+recognize, which is----
+ Mrs. Wagner. So, is there a U.S. interest office being
+stood up, or no?
+ Mr. Abrams. No, there is not.
+ Mrs. Wagner. There is not? All right.
+ Mr. Abrams. There is not.
+ Mrs. Wagner. I am amazed at the breadth of the
+international coalition now calling for change in Venezuela.
+Principles of sovereignty and non-interference have in the past
+limited some Latin American countries from speaking out against
+regional abuses, but Latin America is truly stepping up to the
+plate and taking a strong stance against our neighbor.
+ Mr. Abrams, what was the tipping point for Latin American
+States that have called for Maduro to step down and how is the
+U.S. working to unify this coalition of hemispheric States to
+stand against human rights abuses in Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. I think the tipping point has really been
+Maduro conduct, the conduct of the government. And when
+Venezuelans in the National Assembly came together behind
+Interim President Guaido, that I think was the moment when--and
+I agree with you, it is really quite----
+ Mrs. Wagner. Remarkable.
+ Mr. Abrams [continuing]. Remarkable to see so many
+countries of Latin America, and also in Europe, which is
+against their usual practice, you know----
+ Mrs. Wagner. Correct.
+ Mr. Abrams [continuing]. To come forward and recognize him.
+ We are in touch with really all of them constantly as we
+talk about now, for example, we had the Lima Group meeting; we
+had the meeting in Ottawa. We have tomorrow a humanitarian
+assistance meeting hosted by the OAS. So, there is a constant--
+--
+ Mrs. Wagner. To that point, Mr. Abrams--and I do not mean
+to interrupt--but, as a followup, I know that the Organization
+of American States has also been uncharacteristically critical
+of Maduro and refused to recognize Maduro's legitimacy last
+month. I understand that Venezuela is seeking to leave the OAS.
+But how can the Organization continue to support free and fair
+democracy in Venezuela? Can the OAS aid the United States and
+these other coalitions in enforcing sanctions on the Maduro
+regime?
+ Mr. Abrams. At some point, there may be a credentials fight
+in the OAS because, until there is, the Maduro regime is the
+recognized government, according to the OAS. And we have the
+same problem in New York at the U.N. as well. But, to the
+extent that the Organization can help, particularly on the
+humanitarian side, they are trying to do so.
+ Mrs. Wagner. I know OAS last month refused to recognize
+Maduro's legitimacy. So, that is a good development.
+ Venezuela has longstanding ties with Hezbollah, an Iranian
+proxy and terrorist organization. Mr. Abrams, to what extent
+does the Maduro regime rely on proceeds from illicit activities
+supported by groups like Hezbollah and drug trafficking
+networks for its survival? What are we doing to address this?
+Thank you.
+ Mr. Abrams. The regime has made a great deal of money, and
+higher-ups in the regime have made a great deal of money, over
+the last decade, in particular, out of things like drug
+trafficking. It is very hard for us to address when the
+government in place, of course, is behind all of this and is
+profiting from it, and the people who ought to be engaged in
+law enforcement are, in fact, themselves making money from
+this.
+ So, what do we do? We sanction them. We cancel visas in
+some cases. We can try to go after them through criminal
+prosecutions in some cases, and we have. There are some people
+in jail in the United States, Venezuelans, for engagement in
+drug trafficking, people who are connected to the regime. But
+the real solution to this is to get a democratic government in
+place that will fight drug trafficking with us.
+ Mrs. Wagner. I thank you.
+ My time has expired. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you very much. Mr. Cicilline.
+ Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ Thank you to our witnesses.
+ We have all watched in horror as the Maduro regime has
+destroyed Venezuela's economy, starved its people, and engaged
+in widespread corruption and repression. We all want a better
+future for the people of Venezuela and want to end this manmade
+humanitarian crisis. And we all believe that the Venezuelan
+people have the right to pick their own leaders, a right Maduro
+has denied his people by refusing to hold free and fair
+elections.
+ However, we must be very careful, in my opinion. It is not
+the job of the United States to choose leaders in other
+countries. The United States has a long and not-all-together
+positive history of involvement in Latin America, which I
+believe you are all familiar with.
+ And each transition in Venezuela must be truly democratic
+and led by the people of Venezuela. The United States must work
+with the National Assembly and other governments in the region
+in a supporting role.
+ And I want to turn to my first series of questions because
+I am concerned by continuing comments from the Trump
+administration, noting that the use of military force is, as
+the President said, ``an option''. And so, for you, Mr. Abrams,
+my first question is, we have not, of course, the Congress of
+the United States has not declared war on Venezuela. Correct?
+ Mr. Abrams. Correct.
+ Mr. Cicilline. Is there an existing statutory authorization
+that would allow for a military intervention in Venezuela? Yes
+or no?
+ Mr. Abrams. Not to my knowledge.
+ Mr. Cicilline. Has Venezuela attacked the United States,
+its territories or possessions, or its Armed Forces?
+ Mr. Abrams. No.
+ Mr. Cicilline. Has the administration increased troop
+deployments to countries, including Colombia, neighboring
+Venezuela at any point in the last month?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not believe so.
+ Mr. Cicilline. Are there currently any plans to, or
+discussions about, moving additional combat troops to Colombia
+or any other country that neighbors Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. Not to my knowledge.
+ Mr. Cicilline. Is anyone at the White House, the National
+Security Council, the Department of Defense, or any other
+agency, making plans for U.S. military engagement in Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. That is a question I cannot answer. I know of
+no such planning, but----
+ Mr. Cicilline. Well, consistent with the War Powers Act, I
+have introduced legislation that expressly prohibits the
+administration from taking military action in Venezuela without
+consulting Congress. Will you pledge that the Trump
+administration will not take any military action regarding
+Venezuela without consulting with Congress, in accordance with
+the War Powers Act?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not know that I can answer that question,
+Mr. Cicilline. A series of Presidents, you know, have taken a
+jaundice view, I might say, of the War Powers Act. So, I am
+really not in a position to speak----
+ Mr. Cicilline. OK. Well, under our Constitution, as you
+know, only Congress can declare war, and we have neither
+declared war nor granted the administration the authority to
+send the Armed Forces into hostilities in Venezuela. In my
+view, it would be illegal under U.S. law, inappropriate, and
+reckless to attempt a military intervention. The United States
+must show leadership in our hemisphere and we must continue to
+provide aid to suffering Venezuelans.
+ But I want to just build on Mr. Keating's question, because
+you said, of the 51 countries in this coalition, we are the
+only one that has threatened the use of military force. And in
+response to a question from Mr. Keating, you said, because we
+are the only one capable of doing it. Surely, you are not
+suggesting the other 50 countries do not have the military
+capability to engage in a military action, if they so elected,
+do you?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, some do and some do not.
+ Mr. Cicilline. So, some do? We are not the only ones that
+have that ability.
+ Mr. Abrams. We have not threatened military action in
+Venezuela.
+ Mr. Cicilline. You said we are not the----
+ Mr. Abrams. I mean, all options are on the table.
+ Mr. Cicilline. My question is, we are not the only one that
+has that capability? So, when you said that to Mr. Keating,
+that was not accurate?
+ Mr. Abrams. We are the only one with the kind of
+capability, obviously, that----
+ Mr. Cicilline. OK, but others have military capability and
+have not made the same assertion of that being an option? Isn't
+that correct?
+ Mr. Abrams. I am actually not sure of the answer to that,
+of what other governments have said.
+ Mr. Cicilline. OK. So, Mr. Abrams, what is particularly
+concerning to me is that, in light of the fact there is no
+legal authority to express the use of military force as an
+option, it is unclear to me how the President or anyone in the
+administration can claim it is an option on the table, because
+it is not. And to the extent that we are suggesting that it is,
+we are misleading the international community or misleading the
+people in Venezuela. So, I urge you to take back the message to
+the administration that it is not authorized and not helpful.
+ And I would now like to turn to Mr. Olive to talk a little
+bit about the politicization of aid. Is it true that,
+historically, American humanitarian assistance has been offered
+on the basis of need alone?
+ Mr. Olive. Yes, correct.
+ Mr. Cicilline. And would you say that, in order to provide
+lifesaving assistance in war zones and dangerous areas,
+humanitarians need to be able to operate in a neutral and
+apolitical way?
+ Mr. Olive. Correct.
+ Mr. Cicilline. And is it true that the United States,
+through USAID, is prepositioning humanitarian aid in the border
+of Venezuela?
+ Mr. Olive. Yes, we are.
+ Mr. Cicilline. Do you have any concerns that tying
+humanitarian assistance to a particular political outcome could
+have unintended consequences or harm our ability to deliver
+assistance in Venezuela or to other countries? And what steps
+is the administration taking to ensure that aid does not become
+a flash-point?
+ Mr. Olive. Administrator Green has said we will always, as
+the U.S. Government, be ready to help those in need. There are
+people in need in our hemisphere right now as a result of this
+crisis, and we are preparing--we already are supporting them in
+these border areas. We are doing what we can to build the
+capacity in-country to receive and distribute aid securely and
+efficiently, and be able to monitor those distributions, and
+that is our focus.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you.
+ Mr. Cicilline. I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Mr. Wright.
+ Mr. Wright. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ I want to thank all three of you for being here today. And,
+Mr. Abrams, I am very glad you are here. I agree with our
+ranking member that you are exactly the right person for the
+job.
+ Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
+ Mr. Wright. I have always believed that it is ill-advised,
+if not self-defeating, to broadcast to ruthless dictators what
+the United States is willing or unwilling to do; that it is a
+mistake to tell someone like Maduro that we are willing to use
+a manual screwdriver, but never a power drill; and that, in
+fact, we should not remove any tools from the toolbox.
+ My question, Mr. Abrams, is, does the War Powers Act
+require that the President of the United States get permission
+from Congress to even speak about using military force?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not believe so.
+ Mr. Wright. I did not think so. And is it not true that
+military action is always an option, unless Presidential action
+triggers the War Powers Act and the Congress says no?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, I think that is correct.
+ Mr. Wright. That is what I thought. Thank you very much.
+ I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. All right. Thank you. Mr. Bera.
+ Mr. Bera. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ I am going to continue asking questions in the same line as
+my colleagues, Mr. Keating and Cicilline. And I do not want any
+of this to be construed as--you know, I think what the Chavez
+regime and the Maduro regime have done to Venezuela is an
+absolute disaster and the humanitarian crisis that they have
+created is a disaster, and we have to do everything to support
+the people of Venezuela. But our Framers, by their genius and
+design, created separation of powers, keeping the Nation's
+purse and sword separate.
+ Congress is empowered to declare war, provide for and
+regulate the Armed Forces. The President, as Commander-in-
+Chief, has the responsibility to direct the Armed Forces as
+they conduct the hostilities.
+ We have been talking a little bit about the War Powers
+Resolution. It is absolutely very clear it provides the
+President to introduce U.S. Armed Forces into situations of
+hostilities or imminent hostilities as exercised only pursuant
+to, one, a declaration of war; two, specific statutory
+authorization, or, three, a national emergency created by an
+attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions,
+or its Armed Forces.
+ Mr. Abrams, my colleagues have already pressed you a little
+bit on the use of military force in Venezuela. I would like to
+ask you a yes-or-no question. Do you agree with the War Powers
+Resolution which States, quote, ``The President in every
+possible instance shall consult with Congress before
+introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into
+situation where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly
+indicated by the circumstances, and after every such
+introduction shall consult regularly with the Congress until
+United States Armed Forces,'' until they ``are no longer
+engaged in hostilities or have been removed from such
+situations.''? Yes/no?
+ Mr. Abrams. I cannot give you a yes-or-no answer to that. I
+mean, this is a long debate, as you know better than I.
+Presidents, including the most recent President, President
+Obama, have used force in cases where there was a big debate
+about the War Powers Act. And Presidents sometimes have said,
+``I'm submitting a report, but I'm not sure that I'm obliged to
+do so.'' I just cannot get into that debate today. I am not
+prepared to do so.
+ Mr. Bera. Again, I think the War Powers Act is very clear
+in when the President is authorized to introduce U.S. forces.
+ Mr. Olive, I am going to shift to you. As I mentioned prior
+to the hearing, I also do publicly want to acknowledge the men
+and women that serve this country every day from our State
+Department, our diplomats, our aid and development folks. We
+are proud of them, and I think we cannot acknowledge their work
+and contribution and patriotism to our country enough.
+ Can you give me a quick assessment of how bad the
+humanitarian crisis in-country is at this juncture and how much
+worse it has gotten over the past few weeks?
+ Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, and thank you for your
+kind words to my colleagues. I will definitely take that
+message back to them.
+ Mr. Bera. Thank you.
+ Mr. Olive. The situation is deteriorating on a daily basis.
+The reports that we have gotten from inside the country are
+hospitals are drastically reducing their supplies and not able
+to have surgical equipment, vaccines, et cetera, available to
+even do routine types of surgeries, let alone more complicated
+ones.
+ We are very concerned about the power grid. There are
+numerous power outages throughout the country that, of course,
+affect then, hospitals and clinics, et cetera.
+ Food is available, but it is controlled by the regime and
+used as a tool. And that is something that is deteriorating the
+country as well. So, people are having trouble getting food. We
+are hearing of increasing amounts of malnutrition amongst
+infants in being able to get the nutrients that they need at
+those early stages of life.
+ So, yes, our reports are pretty steady that this is
+declining on a daily basis.
+ Mr. Bera. Well, thank you.
+ In my limited time, Mr. Abrams, given this deterioration
+and the circumstances on the ground, and given the unique
+situation where the Venezuelan military really does have a lot
+of power in terms of which direction things go, have you seen a
+shift in open sources that suggests the military is now moving
+away from Maduro or support for Maduro is changing?
+ Mr. Abrams. I think we have seen some indications of that.
+It is probably a subject better discussed in closed hearing.
+ Mr. Bera. Great. Thank you.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you.
+ Mr. Bera. And I will yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Mr. Reschenthaler.
+ Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ And thanks to everybody who came in today to testify.
+ Mr. Abrams, as a veteran of the Iraq War, I just want to
+thank you for everything that you did in service of the
+country.
+ Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
+ Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you.
+ Over the past several months, we have witnessed the brave
+people of Venezuela rise up against the despot and dictator
+Nicolas Maduro. Since Maduro's rise to power in 2013, Venezuela
+has been plagued with poverty, death, and misery. The regime's
+authoritarian role and socialist policies have led to over 3
+million Venezuelans fleeing the country, 90 percent of the
+population living below the poverty line, and 300,000 children
+at risk of starvation. It is one of the most violent countries
+in the world, rampant with murder. And hyperinflation is
+expected to reach 10 million percent by the end of 2019.
+Venezuela is in the midst of an extreme humanitarian crisis
+that must be addressed immediately.
+ Mr. Abrams, how have the socialist economic policies of the
+Maduro regime led to Venezuela's collapse?
+ Mr. Abrams. I would say it was a combination of
+mismanagement, corruption, and policy. For example, what has
+happened with PDVSA? Instead of treating it as a private
+company, what they have done is basically looted it and put all
+sorts of regime supporters in there. There is no State of law
+in Venezuela, So that private property, in a sense, really does
+not exist. If the regime does not want you to have private
+property, they will just take it away from you. So, it has been
+a disastrous downward spiral.
+ Mr. Reschenthaler. What are the core functions of the
+Maduro relationship with Cuba, Russia, and China?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, I think in the case of China and Russia,
+they have gotten a lot of money. That is enormous loans, tens
+of billions of dollars. Cuba is different. Obviously, they do
+not have any money to give. What they give is people, largely
+intelligence and military people, to surround this regime and
+act as a kind of loyalist corps. As Venezuelans become more and
+more disillusioned with this regime, Maduro surrounds himself
+with Cubans who he trusts more than his own people.
+ Mr. Reschenthaler. Do you see a situation arising where the
+United States would become involved militarily in Venezuela?
+And if you do see that, how do you foresee that scenario
+playing out?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not see it. I do not see it. And one of
+the things that is sort of notable about the discussion about
+the use of force is that that is not the policy of the United
+States. The policy is to pursue humanitarian, economic,
+diplomatic paths forward to try to support the Venezuelan
+people's desire for democracy. When we say all options are on
+the table, that is because all options are always on the table.
+That is not the preferred route and that is not the route we
+are going down.
+ Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you, Mr. Abrams.
+ Mr. Olive, what is the best way for the U.S. to support
+Venezuela's democratic opposition? Is the United States ready
+to assist the organization with free and fair elections?
+ Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
+ And absolutely. Your body has provided now $15 million in
+Fiscal Year 2018, and a portion of that can go to ensure that
+an electoral process is fair and transparent. And we will work
+alongside our State colleagues on whatever assistance may be
+needed, but it will have to be requested, and, as the Special
+Representative said, Venezuelan-led.
+ Mr. Reschenthaler. If we do have a future democratic
+government in Venezuela, are we ready to engage in assisting
+the new free nation, such as nation-building?
+ Mr. Olive. We are looking at different scenarios. Again, it
+has got to be Venezuelan-led. They will determine their
+priorities. They are part of our hemisphere. We stand ready to
+assist. But the most important thing is to get the government
+and the power back in the hands of the Venezuelan people.
+ Mr. Reschenthaler. Thank you, Mr. Olive.
+ And I yield back the remainder of my time.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you. Mr. Castro.
+ Mr. Castro. Thank you, Chairman.
+ I have in the past supported sanctions against the Maduro
+regime because, as Mr. Meeks mentioned, I do believe in many
+ways that Mr. Maduro has oppressed his people. At the same
+time, I believe that the role of the United States is to
+promote democracy, freedom, and human rights around the world.
+The role of the United States is not to handpick the next
+leader of Venezuela.
+ Mr. Abrams, I have a question for you. My question is
+whether you are aware of any transfers of weapons or defense
+equipment by the U.S. Government to groups in Venezuela opposed
+to Nicolas Maduro since you were appointed Special
+Representative for Venezuela.
+ Mr. Abrams. No.
+ Mr. Castro. And I want to be respectful of you, but also
+honest. The reason that I ask that question, there has been a
+McClatchy news report of such an incident. Are you aware of
+that news report?
+ Mr. Abrams. Saw the report, yes.
+ Mr. Castro. I ask this question because you have a record
+of such actions. In Nicaragua, you were involved in the effort
+to overtly provide lethal aid to the Contras against the will
+of Congress. You ultimately pled guilty to two counts of
+withholding information from Congress in regard to your
+testimony during the Iran-Contra scandal. So, I ask you the
+question, can we trust your testimony today?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, you can make that decision for yourself,
+Mr. Castro. I can tell you that the answer to your question is
+no. It is a simple and unequivocal no. There has been no such
+transfer of arms.
+ Mr. Castro. I also want to ask you--I mentioned the
+promotion of democracy and the fact that the Venezuelan people
+have to pick their own leader--what is the administration's
+strategy for encouraging elections as soon as possible in
+Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, that is the heart really of
+administration policy. That is, after the Maduro regime, a
+short transition to an election, and that is the view of all of
+the 51 nations that are supporting Mr. Guaido.
+ I completely agree with the way you started. It is not for
+us to choose the next President of Venezuela. It is for
+Venezuelans. We can help, as a lot of other countries can help,
+in facilitating a free election, because, as you know, there is
+a lot of experience, the National Democratic Institute, the
+International Republican Institute, Freedom House. And
+equivalents in other countries are really quite good at giving
+assistance.
+ Mr. Castro. Also, I know that you have spoken about the
+fact or you mentioned that all options are on the table. And in
+a private setting, we had a conversation about that, which I
+will not get into. But I want to reiterate one point and one of
+the reasons that I disagree with that approach. The reason that
+I disagree with the statement and the approach is because I
+believe that it gives license to countries like China and
+Russia to, then, further engage with Venezuela and do it in the
+name of protecting Venezuela sovereignty by drumming up the
+idea that the United States is going to invade the Nation of
+Venezuela. I strategically think that it was a bad statement.
+ With that, I yield back.
+ [Applause.]
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you.
+ The Chair will remind all persons in the audience that any
+manifestation of approval or disapproval of proceedings is in
+violation of the rules of the House and its committees.
+ Mr. Burchett.
+ Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ I guess the good thing, or the bad thing about being a
+freshman is all the good questions already get asked, but I
+still have a couple that have not been asked.
+ I think it has been established that Cupara.ta, the
+Cupara.tan regime is in line with Maduro. How would you
+recommend that we could separate that?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not think that lectures to the Cupara.tans
+are going to have much impact. I think, in fact, that is going
+to happen when there is a freely elected democratic government,
+and Venezuela will just send them home.
+ Mr. Burchett. I agree with you. Thank you.
+ Could you all followup just a little bit more detail on the
+Russian influence in Venezuela and what you would recommend
+that the United States would do to limit that influence? We
+talk a lot about sanctions and all that, but, I mean, honestly,
+that is sort of like my momma saying, ``I'm going to tell your
+dad,'' and then, dad would say, ``I'm going to tell your
+momma.'' And then, you know, kids, they shriek in horror, but,
+in reality, they just go off and giggle a little bit.
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, there have been some conversations with
+the Russians, and I am sure there will be more, but I cannot
+say they have done any good thus far. Again, it is partly a
+matter of just seeing Venezuela move to a freely elected
+democratic government, which can then make independent
+decisions about the relationships it wants to have.
+ For example, when sanctions come off, they will not need to
+turn to Russia to say, ``How do we deal with these
+sanctions?'', through Rosneft or through Russian banks or
+anything like that. The Russians I think, at this point are not
+putting any more money into Venezuela because they are worried
+about getting paid back the money they have already put in. And
+once there is a freely elected government that can deal, again,
+with the World Bank and the IMF, and a broad international
+program and support, I think the Russian role will diminish
+very quickly.
+ Ms. Oudkirk. And, Mr. Congressman, if I can add onto that,
+if we look at Russian involvement in the hydrocarbon sector,
+one of the reasons why this administration made a decision to
+license the continuing involvement of U.S. companies----
+ Mr. Burchett. Right. Can I ask you a question? I already
+know what hydrocarbons means, but Mr. Pence does not. Could you
+explain that to him?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Oil and gas.
+ Mr. Burchett. OK. Thank you.
+ Ms. Oudkirk. And so, one of the reasons why we licensed the
+continued involvement of U.S. companies in upstream oil
+production in Venezuela was because the oil and gas sector is
+the key pillar of the Venezuelan economy, and it will be going
+forward. And keeping the U.S. corporate presence there, with
+their best practices, with their adherence to all the sorts of
+practices that we expect here in the United States, is, we
+believe, one of the best ways to ensure that in the future
+Venezuela is able to return to prosperity and sort of an
+economy that functions normally.
+ Mr. Burchett. Where we have seen that they have
+nationalized these industries, we have seen the prices, in
+fact, spiral upwards, is that correct? Not artificially, but
+legitimately?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. It depends really, but I think what we are
+focused on here, we are looking at an oil sector that is in
+profound crisis, and the general economic crisis in Venezuela
+exacerbates that. The trained staff are voting with their feet.
+They are going to other countries. Key equipment is being
+stripped of copper wire, so electricity cannot be transmitted.
+So, it is all knitted together, but we do believe that Western
+involvement in the upstream oil sector will leave us positioned
+to have both the U.S. private sector and the U.S. Government
+assist with eventual economic recovery. And we are a
+counterweight to the Russian and the Chinese investment, which
+is otherwise very prevalent in that industry.
+ Mr. Burchett. Thank you.
+ Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield the remainder of my time.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you.
+ Ms. Titus.
+ Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ President Trump seems averse to international cooperation
+and multilateral agreements. He seems to prefer go-it-alone,
+shoot-from-the-hip, mano-a-mano type of diplomacy, such as it
+exists. But some of us believe that, if we are going to be
+successful in helping Venezuela survive and recover through
+political means, not military means, and through humanitarian
+assistance, we are going to need to work with the Lima Group
+and with OAS. So, I would ask you, Mr. Abrams, do not you think
+that your role on the National Security Council in the George
+W. Bush Administration during the 2002 Carmona coup in
+Venezuela hurts your credibility with Latin American countries
+and makes it difficult, if not impossible, for you to serve now
+as a Special Representative of Venezuela, to foster these kind
+of agreements?
+ [Applause.]
+ Chairman Engel. Excuse me. The gentlewoman will suspend.
+ Mr. Abrams. No.
+ Chairman Engel. The Chair will remind all persons in the
+audience that any manifestation of approval or disapproval of
+the proceedings is in violation of the rules of the House and
+its committees. So, I please ask the audience to cooperate or
+else we will have to have people removed, which I would not
+like to do.
+ Go ahead and respond.
+ Mr. Abrams. My answer is no.
+ Ms. Titus. And you do not think that your appointment sends
+the wrong message to our allies in Latin America?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, I have been in contact with an awful lot
+of them. I have talked to a lot of people on the phone in the
+last couple of weeks. I have met with a bunch of foreign
+ministers in the last couple of weeks. These have been very
+good meetings and we are all cooperating because we all want
+the same thing in Venezuela, which is democracy.
+ Ms. Titus. Well, I hope so, too, but I think your ``no''
+puts you in the minority.
+ I will go from there to a broader question. What happens if
+Maduro is ousted? Will he, then, go to Russia or to Cuba, or
+will we have a truth commission? Will he be imprisoned? What
+about these corrupt oligarchs we have heard about? What about
+the heads of the military? And what is going to be the U.S.'s
+position at that point? Would some of you comment on that?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, I would say, first, these are, for the
+most part, Venezuelan decisions. They are decisions that a new
+democratic government is going to have to make. The decision on
+where Maduro goes is for Maduro. Does he want to go to Cuba or
+Russia or someplace else?
+ But, you know, there have been a lot of democratic
+transitions in the world, happily, in the last few decades.
+Each one is a different case. They have to make these decisions
+internally about how much do they want to do in prosecuting
+people. Do they want to have amnesties? And, you know, the
+National Assembly has already passed an amnesty bill. These are
+not our decisions. We are not Venezuelans.
+ Ms. Titus. I appreciate that, but we often hear about some
+subversive activity that encourages one kind of approach or
+another. And I suspect that would be the case again, too.
+ Comment about what we do after the fact, once Maduro goes?
+ Mr. Olive. Yes. From the development standpoint, we are
+prepared to help the new government in its priorities of
+rebuilding the country. USAID's assistance is very public. We
+will use our normal mechanisms that we have done in other
+countries, and we will be transparent and happy to share any
+information that we have, when we reach that day where we are
+having plans and we have responded to a request from the
+government.
+ Ms. Titus. We have heard a lot about the security folks
+from Cuba. What about the teachers and the doctors that came
+from Cuba to Venezuela? Will we be able to work with them after
+the fact?
+ Mr. Abrams. My guess would be that many of them will be
+withdrawn. They are sent there, in large part, as a political
+message of solidarity with Maduro. So, after Maduro--again,
+that is a decision for the Venezuelans to make, not for us.
+ Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you, Ms. Titus. Mr. Pence.
+ Mr. Pence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ To all the witnesses today, thank you for your time.
+ As a Marine, I am proud when America plays a leadership
+role with our allies and partners in support of democratic
+principles and the rights of free people in Venezuela and
+around the world. As Americans, there is no higher calling in
+our diplomatic endeavors than to stand with free people against
+tyranny.
+ I want to focus on how United States leadership has help
+build a coalition of support for the Venezuelan people. Over 40
+countries have now recognized Juan Guaido as the Interim
+President of Venezuela, a number that has effectively doubled
+in recent weeks. I am proud that the United States was among
+the first to stand alongside Interim President Guaidod
+the Venezuelan people.
+ I also believe that it is important to provide support to
+Venezuela's neighbors like Colombia, who are generously hosting
+millions of Venezuelans fleeing the country and the crisis.
+ Mr. Olive and Mr. Abrams, Mr. Abrams, you Stated more than
+3 million Venezuelans, more than 10 percent of Venezuela's
+population has been forced to flee their country to survive.
+You also mentioned today in your testimony, and I quote,
+``Maduro cannot weather much longer.'' My question is, how
+concerned are you about the effects of this on neighboring
+countries and what are the implications of this on the larger
+region?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, I can begin the answer. There is a steady
+outflow. That 3 million, or it may even be 3.6 million, grows
+every day. And if the regime stays in power throughout this
+year, it can reach 5 million. So, we will be hearing a lot more
+from Brazil and Peru, and especially Colombia, about the need
+for help in dealing with continuing massive outflows of
+Venezuelans. This will stop only if there is a democratic turn
+in Venezuela and a beginning of economic recovery.
+ Mr. Olive. Congressman Pence, thank you for your question.
+ We have been in constant contact, especially with the
+Colombian government, on these issues and it is supportive of
+them. Administrator Green is meeting with President Duque
+tomorrow to have this very conversation. One part of it will be
+how can we continue to assist Colombians todeal with the amount
+of Venezuelans migrating into Colombia at this time. We are
+concerned about it and are prepared to go shoulder to shoulder
+with Colombians.
+ Mr. Pence. Is there any concern that the blockade is going
+to attract even more people faster with the humanitarian
+supplies sitting across the border?
+ Mr. Abrams. I think it is a concern, and it is one of the
+reasons why we all want to get the aid in. Venezuelans need it
+very, very badly.
+ Mr. Olive. When Administrator Green and I were there in
+July, it was clear that they were saying, and we saw it
+firsthand, that 90 percent of the Venezuelans that were coming
+into Colombia to get support were going back into Venezuela.
+So, they were just coming in to be able to get the vaccines or
+health care or food or generate some income to be able to go
+back into the country. And we expect that to continue until
+when we are allowed to bring in our humanitarian assistance
+into the country in a safe and efficient manner, in a manner
+that we can monitor where it goes and make sure that it gets to
+the people who are in need of it most.
+ Mr. Pence. Thank you. I just want to say I am proud that
+President Trump and Secretary Pompeo continue to speak with
+clarity and provide the leadership our values require on the
+situation in Venezuela.
+ Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you.
+ Mr. Espaillat.
+ Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ I think that we can say today that probably all, if not
+most, of the members of this committee are really concerned
+with the violence in Venezuela, the humanitarian crisis in
+Venezuela affecting thousands of families that has led to an
+unprecedented migration of Venezuelans throughout the region.
+And, of course, the presence of Hezbollah there as well. I,
+myself, have cosponsored legislation to address that particular
+problem.
+ But, Mr. Abrams, many of our allies have expressed concern
+of your appointment to deal with this problem. Some have
+characterized it as being perhaps like appointing Exxon to lead
+a discussion on the Green New Deal or maybe even appointing MBS
+to lead a discussion on fairness in journalism and
+accessibility to journalism.
+ Do you feel that your past actions in Iran-Contra have
+permanently impaired your ability to fairly and transparently
+deal in the region, since we all know the outcome of what
+happened then? Do you feel that that is a major problem,
+baggage that you bring to the table?
+ Mr. Abrams. I do not, and now I have been doing this job
+for two whole weeks. And I can tell you that Members of
+Congress have raised it. No Latin American of any nationality
+with whom I have dealt has raised it. And we have had lots and
+lots of discussions about how we are going to promote democracy
+in Venezuela.
+ I guess I should say, since I have been attacked now three
+times, in my own defense, if you look at the Reagan record of 8
+years, when we came in, there were military dictatorships all
+over Latin America.
+ Mr. Espaillat. Mr. Abrams, that is not an attack. That is a
+fact of history.
+ Mr. Abrams. And when we left in country after country after
+country there had been transitions that we supported. Chile is
+a very good example. So, I think it is actually a record of
+promoting democracy, and I think a lot of Latin Americans know
+the----
+ Mr. Espaillat. Respectfully, I differ with you. I think it
+is a fact of history. We should not dig our heads in the sand
+and make believe that this never happened because it did. And
+you were at the helm of that and you----
+ Mr. Abrams. I was at the helm of promoting democracy in
+Latin America.
+ Mr. Espaillat. Well, you may want to characterize it that
+way, but I do not. I think you were involved in the Iran-Contra
+deal, and I think that permanently damages you to be a fair and
+impartial arbiter in a conflict that is leading to a
+humanitarian crisis of unprecedented levels in Venezuela.
+ So, I want to get to my next question, which is, do you
+believe that there could be a peaceful, diplomatic solution to
+this crisis? And if so, has our Nation engaged the Vatican, the
+United Nation, Mexico, and Uruguay in their efforts to resolve
+this peacefully without any bloodshed?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, we have had discussions with the Vatican,
+with the U.N. I spoke to the Secretary General actually
+yesterday morning. Mexico and Uruguay are somewhat different
+because they have a different approach, which is the kind of
+dialog with Maduro that has been tried and failed in past
+years, tried by the Venezuelans who are pushing for democracy
+in their own country.
+ Mr. Espaillat. And the opposition has in some instances
+asked to be armed. Do you feel that that is a viable for
+protecting themselves or do you feel that arming the opposition
+will lead to a civil war?
+ Mr. Abrams. I think it is a terrible idea. I think that the
+question of security for the opposition--well, it is not really
+the opposition. It is now, in our view, the legitimate
+government of Venezuela and the National Assembly. Security for
+them, security for individuals like Interim President Guaido is
+a real issue, but the solution to it is replacing this
+government with the interim government, and then, allowing the
+people of Venezuela to choose their government.
+ Mr. Espaillat. Finally, do you feel that there are
+currently any individuals in the armed forces or in government
+that are applicable to receive Magnitsky Act levels of
+sanctions and options?
+ Mr. Abrams. Yes, I think there are.
+ Mr. Espaillat. And are you willing to share those----
+ Mr. Abrams. Not in a public hearing. I think we need to go
+over the names again. But, certainly, some of the people rise
+to that level of human rights violations.
+ Mr. Espaillat. Mr. Chairman, let me just, again, reiterate
+my concern for a potential human crisis emerging in the region,
+potential civil war, famine, if we do not go the diplomatic way
+and abandon our old, bad ways of Iran-Contra.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you.
+ Mr. Guest.
+ Mr. Guest. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ Mr. Abrams, in your written testimony you talk about that
+Cuba has provided direct support for Maduro repressive tactics,
+including the recent deployment of its most feared units, the
+Black Wasp. Can you kind of expand upon this military unit and
+what they are doing in the country of Venezuela?
+ Mr. Abrams. We have seen Maduro reinforcing his Cuban guard
+corps. Again, it is a lack of confidence in his own people or
+it is a knowledge that his own people want him gone. So, there
+were Cubans. There are Cubans surrounding him. That is the
+palace guard. This special forces unit has now come in. This is
+in the last few weeks. And I think it is really quite striking
+that he does not trust the Venezuelan people or the Venezuelan
+armed forces.
+ Mr. Guest. And so, the Cubans have sent special forces
+units into Venezuela to prop up this regime?
+ Mr. Abrams. That is correct.
+ Mr. Guest. And then, since January the 23d, we have seen a
+host of nations join us in our ability to affect change in the
+Nation of Venezuela. Actually, one of the nations that has yet
+to take a position one way or the other--and you touched on it
+very briefly a moment ago--was Mexico. And again, can you kind
+of talk about why they have failed to take a position one way
+or another on this particular important matter?
+ Mr. Abrams. They are quite isolated in Latin America, you
+are right, when you look at the other larger democracies. I
+think I would say it is just the ideology. It is an old view on
+the part of their President that this is all about American
+interventionism. And when we say, well, it isn't; you have got
+51 countries, including most of the major democracies in Latin
+America, plus Canada, saying this, this isn't about the United
+States and Venezuela. We have not been able to persuade them,
+at least to this point.
+ Mr. Guest. And you also talk about in your written
+testimony that Maduro and his cronies are conspiring to prevent
+lifesaving assistance from reaching the people of Venezuela.
+Can you expand on that just briefly as well?
+ Mr. Abrams. Yes. Well, perhaps Mr. Olive could do so as
+well. But what we are seeing visibly in the blocking of that
+bridge is a policy on the part of the Maduro regime. And Maduro
+himself has said, ``We do not need humanitarian assistance.''
+He is completely blind to the suffering of the Venezuelan
+people.
+ Mr. Guest. And you also talked about in your written
+testimony that they have also canceled gasoline shipments, so
+that you would be unable to transport humanitarian aid. Is that
+correct?
+ Mr. Abrams. Do you want to comment on that? I have not seen
+that exact report.
+ Mr. Olive. We have not seen it as a major concern now. If
+we have full access to being able to get things into the
+country, we will overcome that, whatever fuel shortages there
+may be.
+ Mr. Guest. And so, we currently have, for lack of a better
+term, a dictator who is refusing humanitarian aid and a country
+of great crisis, and has also aligned himself with the Cuban
+government, to the point that there are Cuban special forces
+currently in Venezuela at this time. Is that correct?
+ Mr. Abrams. That is correct.
+ Mr. Guest. I would yield back, Mr. Chairman.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you.
+ Ms. Omar.
+ Ms. Omar. Thank you, Chairman.
+ Thank you all for being here and thank you for your
+testimoneys.
+ Mr. Abrams, in 1991, you pleaded guilty to two counts of
+withholding information from Congress regarding your
+involvement in the Iran-Contra affair, for which you were later
+pardoned by President George H.W. Bush. I fail to understand
+why members of this committee or the American people should
+find any testimony that you give today to be truthful.
+ Mr. Abrams. If I could respond to that----
+ Ms. Omar. It was not a question.
+ Mr. Abrams. I----
+ Ms. Omar. That was not, that was not a question.
+ Mr. Abrams. I would----
+ Ms. Omar. I reserve the right to my time.
+ Mr. Abrams. It is not right----
+ Ms. Omar. That was not a question.
+ Mr. Abrams [continuing]. That members of this committee can
+attack a witness who is not permitted----
+ Ms. Omar. On February 8th----
+ Mr. Abrams [continuing]. To reply.
+ Ms. Omar. That was not a question. Thank you for your
+participation.
+ On February 8th, 1982, you testified before the Senate
+Foreign Relations Committee about U.S. policy in El Salvador.
+In that hearing, you dismissed as communist propaganda report
+about the massacre of El Mozote in which more than 800
+civilians, including children as young as 2 years old, were
+brutally murdered by U.S.-trained troops. During that massacre,
+some of those troops bragged about raping a 12-year-old girl
+before they killed them, girls before they killed them. You
+later said that the U.S. policy in El Salvador was a ``fabulous
+achievement''. Yes or no, do you still think so?
+ Mr. Abrams. From the day that President Duarte was elected
+in a free election to this day, El Salvador has been a
+democracy. That is a fabulous achievement.
+ Ms. Omar. Yes or no, do you think that massacre was a
+``fabulous achievement'' that happened under our watch?
+ Mr. Abrams. That is a ridiculous question, and I----
+ Ms. Omar. Yes or no?
+ Mr. Abrams. No.
+ Ms. Omar. I will----
+ Mr. Abrams. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.
+ Ms. Omar [continuing]. Take that as a yes.
+ Mr. Abrams. I am not going to respond to that kind of
+personal attack, which is not a question.
+ Ms. Omar. Yes or no, would you support an armed faction
+within Venezuela that engages in war crimes, crimes against
+humanity, or genocide, if you believed they were serving U.S.
+interest, as you did in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua?
+ Mr. Abrams. I am not going to respond to that question. I
+am sorry. I do not think this entire line of questioning is
+meant to be real questions. And so, I will not reply.
+ Ms. Omar. Whether under your watch a genocide will take
+place and you will look the other way because American
+interests were being upheld is a fair question, because the
+American people want to know that anytime we engage a country
+that we think about what our actions could be and how we
+believe our values are being furthered. That is my question.
+Will you make sure that human rights are not violated and that
+we uphold international and human rights?
+ Mr. Abrams. I suppose there is a question in there, and the
+answer is that the entire thrust of American policy in
+Venezuela is to support the Venezuelan people's effort to
+restore democracy to their country. That is our policy.
+ Ms. Omar. I do not think anybody disputes that. The
+question I had for you is that, does the interest of the United
+States include protecting human rights and include protecting
+people against genocide?
+ Mr. Abrams. That is always the position of the United
+States.
+ Ms. Omar. Thank you. I yield back my time.
+ Chairman Engel. Mr. Watkins.
+ Mr. Watkins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ My questions are for Mr. Abrams. Sir, it is well known that
+members of Maduro regime have ties to drug trafficking. Now we
+are hearing allegations of ties with terrorist organizations,
+including Hezbollah and FARC. Can you walk me through the
+nature of those ties and what kind of concern that poses to the
+U.S. security?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, some of this I guess we should do in a
+closed hearing. But the group that stands out most is the ELN,
+the Colombian terrorist group that is harbored in Venezuela.
+They have not just escaped into Venezuela. I mean, that is
+government policy on the part of the Maduro regime. They also
+have, obviously, extremely close ties to Cuba. There is a
+Hezbollah presence all over Latin America, and I believe they
+are engaged in fundraising in Venezuela, and the regime does
+nothing to prevent that. So, these are security concerns that
+are going to exist as along as this group is in power.
+ Mr. Watkins. Thank you.
+ Is there concerns about the safety and security of U.S.
+diplomats and contractors, and do you know of any steps being
+taken to assure that they are safe?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, there are a lot of Americans in
+Venezuela. The number of official Americans is small, but there
+are a lot of American citizens who live there. Unfortunately,
+we have very limited ability to protect them. We do supply some
+consular services. Every couple of days, we may give out an
+emergency passport to an American. But the staff size is
+limited and our ability to protect people is limited. And so,
+we rely on the regime, actually, which controls the guns to
+make sure that no harm comes to Americans. And we have made it
+clear that that is their responsibility under international
+law.
+ Mr. Watkins. Thank you, Mr. Abrams.
+ Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
+ Chairman Engel. Thank you very much.
+ Mr. Levin.
+ Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ And thanks to the witnesses for coming today.
+ First, I would like to followup on the chairman's questions
+about temporary protected status, where we began. Mr. Abrams,
+do you think it is fair to call the humanitarian situation in
+Venezuela dire, given the Venezuelan people's need for basics
+like nutritious food and medical supplies?
+ Mr. Abrams. Yes.
+ Mr. Levin. I understand, as you mentioned to him, that you
+are discussing designating Venezuela for TPS with others in the
+administration, given that dire situation. While you were
+Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights and Humanitarian
+Affairs a generation ago, we might say----
+ Mr. Abrams. A generation or two.
+ Mr. Levin [continuing]. You testified at a hearing before
+the House Judiciary Committee that concerned TPS for
+Salvadorans. At that hearing, you testified, and I quote,
+``Some groups argue that illegal aliens who are sent back to El
+Salvador there meet persecution and often death. Obviously, we
+do not believe these claims, or we would not deport these
+people.'' End quote. Is that correct?
+ Mr. Abrams. I take your word for it. You know, it has been
+a while.
+ Mr. Levin. Yes, I understand. That was at a hearing before
+the Subcommittee on Immigration, Refugees, and International
+Law of the committee, on a bill numbered H.R. 4477, Temporary
+Suspension of Deportation of Certain Aliens., on April 12th,
+1984.
+ And is it correct that, when you testified at that hearing
+in 1984, death squads controlled by the Salvadoran government,
+which had the backing of the United States, were committing
+horrific acts of violence against the Salvadoran people? I do
+not have a lot of time. Were they or were they not, sir?
+ Mr. Abrams. The death squads were certainly active,
+although I cannot remember the exact years, but the amount of
+death squad activity came down under President Duarte and under
+American pressure.
+ Mr. Levin. Well, just to remind you, as The Atlantic
+pointed out, more than 75,000 Salvadorans were killed in the
+fighting, most of them--most of them--victims of the military
+and its death squads, more than 75,000. ``Peasants were shot en
+masse, often while trying to flee. Students and union leaders
+had their thumbs tied behind their backs before being shot in
+the head, their bodies left on roadsides as a warning to
+others.''
+ I would just ask, sir, you, of all people, to use your
+offices to try to help promote TPS for Venezuelans in need.
+ Mr. Olive, let me ask you a question. I am the son of an
+official of USAID. So, I also appreciate the work of you and
+your colleagues there.
+ It is my understanding that sanctions on the Venezuelan
+State-owned oil company that the Trump administration imposed
+last month are meant to cutoff Maduro's cashflow and force his
+exit. What I want to know is, what is the administration's plan
+if this approach does not work? The Wall Street Journal
+reported last month, quote, ``If the standoff endures, the U.S.
+move could prove devastating for Venezuela's economy which
+relies on oil exports for 95 percent of its hard currency
+income.'' End quote. Which obviously isn't a great thing.
+ But my question to you is, what does the Trump
+administration plan to do if these new sanctions squeeze the
+Venezuelan economy, but Maduro remains? Have you examined what
+will happen to the Venezuelan people?
+ Mr. Olive. First, Congressman, thank you for your kind
+words to my colleagues. I will take that back to them. Thank
+you.
+ Mr. Levin. Thank you.
+ Mr. Olive. Most of this, I would defer to the State
+Department. But, from a humanitarian assistance point of view,
+we do see many of these resources that were coming into the
+Maduro regime were not getting to the people, and the ones that
+were were used as a tool, such as their CLAP program, et
+cetera. We do expect the situation to get worse, and that is
+why we are prepositioning goods right now on the border, ready
+to go into Venezuela. And we are prepared to do much more when
+we have access where we can securely and efficiently monitor
+its distribution, and that is what we are prepared to do.
+ For the remainder of your question, I will defer to the
+State Department.
+ Mr. Abrams. No, I agree with that.
+ Mr. Levin. All right. Well, we are very concerned about
+deepening the crisis that we are trying to prevent.
+ Let me, finally, Mr. Chairman, just end by I noted, and I
+really appreciate the bipartisanship here, a number of our
+friends on the other side of the aisle have called Venezuela
+``the most violent country in the world'' and ``the most
+dangerous country in the world,'' things like this. I do not
+understand that, if you look at Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,
+Mali, Somalia, Yemen, and South Sudan. I just hope that we
+stick to the facts here. The situation is bad enough as it is.
+ Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
+ Mr. Sires [presiding]. Thank you.
+ We now recognize Steve Chabot from Ohio.
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ Mr. Olive, what is the State of press freedoms in
+Venezuela, and how are we countering the regime's propaganda
+and ensuring that Venezuelans are aware of the support that the
+U.S. and the international community are providing?
+ Mr. Olive. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
+ We are providing supporting for independent media. We are
+now up to, with the approval of the congressional notification
+that has now expired, and we can now use our 2018 funding. We
+have spent about approximately $40 million, or that are
+available for--one of the areas is independent media.
+ The groups that we are working with, Freedom House, the
+International Republican Institute, the National Democratic
+Institute, NDI, and others, are working to preserve an
+independent media within the country.
+ They are very challenged. They have been threatened, and
+some have been arrested, et cetera. Some of their operations
+have been disruptive.
+ Administrator Green, on two occasions, one in Washington in
+December, one in July in Miami, met with Venezuelan diasporas
+who raised this issue. And he said, we are a lifeline to many
+of those independent journalists and media, and we will do
+everything we can to remain so.
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much.
+ And my final question would be for Mr. Abrams as well as
+Ms. Oudkirk. What role do energy and oil continue to play in
+the Maduro regime's ability to maintain the loyalty of
+countries in the region? And, Mr. Abrams, I will begin with
+you.
+ Mr. Abrams. I think it is very important. I mean, the only
+real asset that they have got is money that comes from oil
+sales and the oil itself. We have seen that most in the
+Caribbean, where they have been involved in an awful lot of
+activities that have produced a political result. And you can
+see that, actually, in some of the OAS votes, where,
+unfortunately, some democracies in the Caribbean have not
+joined this group of 51 countries around the world in
+supporting Interim President .
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much.
+ Ms. Oudkirk, would you like to add anything to that?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Yes, Congressman Chabot. The Petrocaribe
+program, which is, I think, what you are referring to, has
+largely wound down, with the exception of sort of concessional
+oil sales or oil deliveries to Cuba.
+ However, as Special Representative Abrams noted, there are
+a variety of countries in the Caribbean and Central America who
+have a large sort of debt overhang with PDVSA. And this is
+really a problem. The coercive use of energy sales, whether we
+see it here in the Western Hemisphere or farther afield, is a
+real challenge. And I think the key here is that, as the
+sanctions bite on PDVSA, their ability to use, to take the oil
+proceeds themselves and use them directly as money is going to
+be largely cutoff.
+ The United States used to, prior to the sanctions, import
+about 40 percent of Venezuela's oil exports, but we paid about
+75 percent of oil receipts because so much of the other oil
+went for debt-for-oil swaps with China and Russia. So, cutting
+off that financial flow is really a key focus of the sanctions.
+And then, separately, really working with these vulnerable
+economies and jurisdictions close to Venezuela to figure out a
+way for them to extricate themselves from a dependence3 on
+PDVSA is a crucial piece of work that we have in front of us
+going forward.
+ Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much. In the interest of members
+making votes, I will yield back, Mr. Chairman.
+ Mr. Sires. Thank you, Mr. Chabot.
+ We will now recess. Votes have been called. I will urge all
+the members to please come back after the three votes that we
+have. Thank you very much. Just be a little patient.
+ [Recess.]
+ Mr. Sires. The hearing will come to order.
+ Mr. Malinowski.
+ Mr. Malinowski. There we go. My voice carries, but that is
+better.
+ Let me just start out by saying that, in my view, what we
+are dealing with here is an anti-democratic coup, a slow-motion
+anti-democratic coup that was carried out by the Maduro regime,
+a regime that packed its supreme court with loyalists, that
+tried to render null and void a Congress that was elected by
+the vast majority of the Venezuelan people, that imprisoned and
+tortured Venezuelan citizens who exercised their human right to
+protest against these outrages, that prevented the opposition
+from fielding a candidate against the leader of this regime.
+ This is not a left or right issue. This is not an issue
+that should divide us on ideological grounds. If any of us in
+the United States, whether we are liberal or conservative,
+progressive, whatever, experienced that in our country, we
+would be on the streets screaming about it, just as the vast
+majority of Venezuelans are doing.
+ And because of that, I am a critic of much of the
+administration's foreign policy, as you guys will not be
+surprised to hear, but I feel like in the case of Venezuela
+this is a policy that, broadly speaking, I can support, and I
+certainly pray for its success, given what has been happening
+to the Venezuelan people.
+ I know a number of the issues have been raised already.
+But, with that foundation, I do want to ask Mr. Abrams a
+handful of questions that relate Venezuela to our overall
+approach to the world.
+ I think you know, Mr. Abrams, based on your work over many,
+many years, that the one argument that dictators like Maduro
+and Putin and others throw at us all of the time, when we try
+to do the right thing, as I think we are trying to do here, is
+that we are inconsistent, that we aim our democracy and human
+rights policies at our adversaries, or at our ideological
+adversaries, not our friends. Sometimes that is an unfair
+charge; sometimes it is more fair. But I wonder if, as a
+general matter, you would agree that we need to strive, where
+possible, for moral consistency.
+ Mr. Abrams. I do agree. I think it is impossible to achieve
+in the end for any administration because----
+ Mr. Malinowski. Try for.
+ Mr. Abrams [continuing]. We are balancing so many American
+interests. But it is something we are striving for.
+ Mr. Malinowski. Would you, then, agree, as a general
+matter--and I know, I am sensitive to the fact you are here
+representing the administration's Venezuela policies; you
+cannot necessarily speak for everything else--but, as a general
+matter, would you agree that, if we are going to be condemning
+a president who is trying to attain absolute power for life,
+contrary to constitutions and the democratic process in
+Venezuela, that we should do so in other countries, such as
+Egypt, when similar situations arise, as a general matter?
+ Mr. Abrams. I really should not respond beyond the question
+of Venezuela. It is really not my remit at the Department and
+not while I am up here. You and I go back a ways, and you know
+that my view is, generally, that the United States should be
+supporting the expansion of democracy all over the world.
+ Mr. Malinowski. Thank you.
+ Would you agree that, if we are going to be condemning
+socialism and effects on the people of Venezuela, that we
+should be condemning even more strongly communism in North
+Korea, rather than talking about how the economy of that
+country might be about to explode in a positive direction?
+ Mr. Abrams. I think the human rights record in North Korea
+is pretty well known, but I really in this hearing cannot go
+very far down that path.
+ Mr. Malinowski. OK.
+ Mr. Abrams. It is just not my responsibility.
+ Mr. Malinowski. And would you agree that, if we are going
+to be asking countries to help the millions of Venezuelans who
+are fleeing their country, to take in refugees for the time
+period necessary to give them protection, that we, as a
+country, should also maintain our tradition of keeping our
+doors open to refugees fleeing persecution around the world, as
+a general matter?
+ Mr. Abrams. As a general matter, yes. And Venezuelans who
+feel that they would be in danger by going home should apply
+for, and are eligible for, asylum here.
+ Mr. Malinowski. Thank you. Again, I would note that the
+refugee numbers have made it difficult to meet the demand from
+Venezuelans and from people fleeing repression and war all over
+the world.
+ Thank you so much, Mr. Abrams.
+ Mr. Sires. Thank you.
+ Congressman Rooney.
+ Mr. Rooney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
+ I would like to, first, thank Secretary Abrams for coming
+here and speaking so candidly and clearly, and bringing the
+great depth and length of his experience in Central America and
+South America to bear on our problems that we face together.
+ Mr. Abrams. Thank you.
+ Mr. Rooney. The question I have is one that apparently was
+not asked earlier. It is about the political transition and
+Maduro's threatening to hold these early elections, and how big
+a threat would they be to the legitimate National Assembly's
+continuing efforts to institutionalize itself?
+ Mr. Abrams. They would be a threat. I think as we saw last
+year in the May 2018 elections, any elections that Maduro funds
+are not going to be credible elections. There needs to be a
+free and fair Presidential election in Venezuela, but it is not
+going to happen if it is under Maduro's control.
+ Mr. Rooney. Thank you.
+ Mr. Sires. I have a question. The continued outflow of
+Venezuelans outside of Venezuela, how much of a destabilizing
+factor would that have in the region if it continues at the
+rate that it is going now, which is 5,000 a day going into----
+ Mr. Abrams. About 5,000 a day net leaving. It will place an
+even larger burden on the countries that are already feeling
+this, and Colombia, of course, most of all. Peru has about
+700,000 Venezuelans, I believe. So, the impact on their health
+system, for example, is very great now, and you are increasing
+this, potentially, by about 60 percent.
+ Perhaps Mr. Olive would add a comment?
+ Mr. Olive. Yes, we are very concerned about that.
+Administrator Green is meeting with President Duque of Colombia
+tomorrow, and that is going to be one of the topics discussed.
+The Colombians have expressed a great interest that their
+medical systems, schools, and social services are being
+overwhelmed not just in the border area, but throughout the
+country, and are concerned that, if they cannot continue to
+provide those services to their citizens, that it will disable
+or destabilize the country potentially. And that goes for
+Caribbean countries like Trinidad and Tobago as well.
+ Mr. Sires. In a meeting earlier that we had with the
+President Duque, he said that they already have 400 cases of
+measles that they have been able to track.
+ At this time, I would like to recognize Congresswoman
+Mucarsel-Powell from Florida.
+ Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so
+much for allowing me to participate in this hearing today.
+ And, Mr. Elliott Abrams, Sandra Oudkirk, thank you for
+being here today, and thank you, sir, for coming.
+ This is an extremely important issue for me personally. I
+am the first South American Representative ever to be elected
+to Congress. So, I bring that perspective to these discussions.
+I have visited that country many times. I have very close
+friends that have had to flee this oppressive narco-regime,
+which is what we all call it. And I have some family members
+that are still in Venezuela.
+ So, it is something that I have been very outspoken about
+for many years, and this has been escalating for the past 15
+years. And I am glad that we are now finally having these
+conversations. I just hope that this is the beginning of
+several others that we will have, so that we can do everything
+in our power from the United States to help the people of
+Venezuela.
+ So, my first question, one of the things that I have been
+focusing on is humanitarian aid. So, that is why I have been
+working on this humanitarian aid bill.
+ And I wanted to ask Mr. Abrams, how much has actually been
+delivered in the humanitarian aid that we have seen, that you
+started with with the first 20 million? Do you have details on
+how much has actually already been delivered?
+ Mr. Abrams. I am going, if you will permit, turn to Mr.
+Olive.
+ Mr. Olive. Of that new 20 million that Secretary Pompeo
+announced, we have used that money to preposition goods
+currently in Colombia, and we are also looking at other
+neighboring countries and other parts of the Colombia. That is
+how we have spent it so far.
+ In terms of getting goods in the country, we have not been
+able to do much. With the money that comes to our Latin
+American and Caribbean bureau, which was $9 million in 2017 and
+will be $15 million with 2018 funds, we have built the capacity
+of civil society organizations and tested their ability to
+distribute humanitarian assistance. But it is very small. The
+security of those partners is very much of a concern of ours.
+So, we have had to keep it more low profile at this point.
+ And then, the only other assistance that is getting into
+the country is what Administrator Green and I saw when we were
+there in Cucuta in July, and that is the Venezuelans crossing
+over the border, getting the medical services or vaccines or
+food, or things that they need in Colombia, and then, going
+back in.
+ But that is all we have been able to do so far. We really
+need Maduro to allow this assistance that we are building up on
+the border into the country and distributed correctly.
+ Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. And are we working very closely with
+the United Nations and some of their members in providing this
+aid?
+ Mr. Olive. Yes, we are in constant conversation with them.
+At the moment, they have some restrictions as well, which I
+think Special Representative Abrams can go into. But we are
+having those discussions and being transparent on what our
+plans are.
+ Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. OK. Great.
+ I also wanted to ask you, Mr. Abrams, Cuba, as we have
+discussed before, has clearly been a major contributor to
+Maduro's illegitimate regime. And they have been providing
+support on a number of fronts, including military personnel. I
+would like to get a little bit more detail on what you can tell
+us about the Cuban officers that are on the ground in Venezuela
+at this time. And also, why have not we sanctioned these people
+who are helping prop up Maduro and his illegitimate regime?
+ Mr. Abrams. There are thousands of Cuban, let's call them,
+security and intelligence people on the ground. They form a
+kind of palace guard around Maduro. As I noted before, what it
+suggest is he does not trust Venezuelans. He does not trust the
+Venezuelan military. So, he brings in Cubans to surround him
+and provide security. They also spy on members of the
+Venezuelan military. They also police the Venezuelan military.
+So, that is what he uses them for, because he sees, I think,
+his own support among all Venezuelans, including in the
+military, crumbling.
+ Now sanctioning them, you know, many of them are, if you
+will, just security officers in the ranks whose identities we
+do not even know. We have sanctioned high-level people in the
+Maduro regime. We continue to do that, civilian and military.
+And we will continue to do that. We have announced some
+expansions this week for the constituent assembly and the
+supreme court, the TSJ.
+ Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. OK. I am running out of time, but I
+have one very important question. One of the discussions that I
+have heard from some colleagues here on the floor is that they
+are concerned that the sanctions that we are imposing to PDVSA
+are going to hurt the Venezuelan people. And I want to make it
+very clear that I am in full support of these sanctions to
+PDVSA.
+ But I wanted to ask, what is the administration's plan,
+should these sanctions begin to affect and, indeed, exacerbate
+the humanitarian crisis for the people that are living right
+now in the country?
+ Mr. Abrams. Let me just say, this horrendous humanitarian
+situation in Venezuela that we have all been talking about
+existed 2 weeks ago, before there were sanctions on PDVSA. So,
+they have not used those billions of dollars in income to help
+the Venezuelan people to buy food, to buy medicine for them. In
+that sense, we know that this funding stream that we have tried
+to cutoff does not go to the Venezuelan people.
+ Mr. Olive. And, Congresswoman, that is exactly why, when
+Interim President Guaido called Administrator Green, even
+though he realized that he may need future assistance on
+electoral processes, civil society, and independent journalism,
+et cetera, he said the No. 1 need is humanitarian assistance,
+and he asked that it be prepositioned and ready to get in the
+country. We do not have that access yet, but we work daily on
+trying to get that.
+ Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. Thank you so much.
+ Mr. Sires. Congresswoman Shalala.
+ Ms. Mucarsel-Powell. That is why my focus has been the
+humanitarian aid.
+ Thank you, Chairman, for allowing me to participate.
+ Ms. Shalala. Thank you, Chairman, for allowing me to
+participate as well.
+ And I want to add that I absolutely support the other
+members of the south Florida delegation. It is a huge issue for
+us in south Florida. And I hope you hear in our voices
+bipartisan support for most of what you are doing.
+ I have a quick question to followup on the humanitarian
+aid. And that is, aid to Colombia, because so many of the
+Venezuelans have gone over the border, and possibly to Brazil,
+but I think Colombia, in particular, is feeling the need for
+humanitarian aid.
+ Mr. Olive. Yes, the U.S. Government has provided $140
+million for neighboring countries and, in particular, Colombia,
+which $97 million of that USAID has administered. Administrator
+Green is meeting tomorrow with President Duque of Colombia to
+talk precisely of recalibrating where we are, what support have
+we been able to provide, what more is needed, and have those
+kinds of discussions, because those impacts have been severe on
+neighboring countries, Brazil, Colombia, Peru, Equador, and
+Trinidad, Tobago.
+ Ms. Shalala. Thank you very much.
+ And, Mr. Abrams, I am going to keep asking you the same
+question about TPS. And I want to reinforce what my
+colleagues--for those of us, in your testimony you talked about
+how more than 10 percent of Venezuela's population has been
+forced to flee their country. As you know, many of them have
+come to south Florida, to Debbie's district, to my district, to
+Mario Diaz-Balart's district, to Debbie Wasserman Schultz's
+district. And we are very concerned.
+ And I want to reiterate to the administration, we have
+introduced bipartisan legislation to extend TPS to Venezuelans.
+I am well aware that the administration is trying to take away
+TPS designations for so many people in my community, and I want
+to be supportive of them, but also to emphasize adding TPS for
+Venezuelans.
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, thank you. This is, obviously, a very
+important question. It is one I have discussed with Secretary
+Pompeo, and I will take it back and let him know of your views.
+ Ms. Shalala. Thank you.
+ I yield back.
+ Mr. Sires. Congresswoman Spanberger.
+ Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much.
+ Thank you to our witnesses who are here today.
+ And, Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity today for
+asking questions.
+ My colleagues have highlighted our collective and serious
+concerns about the use of military force, potential use of U.S.
+military force in Venezuela. And even in hearing caution, we
+have heard Admiral Stavridis talk about limited and well-
+intentioned intervention for humanitarian purposes, saying that
+a military response would ``foment rage in the region and
+internationally''. I am in complete agreement that a military
+solution, particularly on the part of the U.S., is not answer.
+ But I do have a couple of questions about what we might
+anticipate from other countries. To your knowledge, are there
+any other countries who are contemplating direct involvement,
+such as Russia or China? We have seen Russia come to the aid of
+autocratic leaders elsewhere in the world. Do you see any
+indication that Moscow may consider something similar,
+deployment of advisors or military forces to Venezuela? And I
+will open that up to all of the witnesses.
+ Mr. Abrams. We did see some Russian bombers, if I recall
+correctly, fly to Venezuela, which was a Russian display of--I
+do not know--support for the regime, I guess you would say. But
+they have not put armed personnel on the ground the way they
+have in some other countries.
+ Ms. Spanberger. OK. And Russia has been known to at times
+use hybrid warfare and transnational criminal organizations to
+further some of their objectives and obscure their direct role
+in doing so. Do we have any indication that this may be
+happening in Venezuela or any concerns that it may happen on
+the horizon?
+ Mr. Abrams. Well, it is always a concern, and they have an
+investment in this regime literally in financial terms, but,
+obviously, in political terms as well. And they have been
+defending it. They made a very strident appearance in the
+Security Council, for example, on January 25th, when Secretary
+Pompeo was there, a lot of cold war rhetoric really. But it is
+a very interesting question as to how far they would actually
+go. And we ask ourselves that question all the time.
+ Ms. Spanberger. Any additional? OK. And then, another
+question on this same line of questioning. To your knowledge,
+what is the role of the colectivos or the armed civilian
+militias? Are they receiving, to your knowledge, any external
+support, training, or weapons? And if so, do you know where
+that is coming from or how the U.S. and our partners in the
+region might be able to prevent such support and use of such
+support?
+ Mr. Abrams. I am not aware of foreign support for the
+colectivos. It is clear that they work for the regime, and the
+regime in some cases has armed them. And they are kind of an
+auxiliary to the normal, legitimate, if you will, security
+forces. But the regime has the means, unfortunately, to
+organize and arm them. I have not seen evidence of a
+relationship between the colectivos and foreign powers.
+ Ms. Spanberger. And for Ms. Oudkirk I have a question about
+the sanctions and potential impact of the sanctions. We are
+well aware of the fact that for many years Venezuela has been
+able to invest heavily and in some cases buy the loyalty of
+Caribbean States through the sale of its crude oil. And some of
+these Petrocaribe States have supported actions of the
+Organization of American States to put diplomatic pressure on
+Maduro, which has now led to him threatening economic
+retaliation.
+ With concerns of the potential for destabilization or
+humanitarian crises in other parts of Latin America, my
+question is, do you expect any economic reverberations from
+Venezuela? And what is the administration doing to reduce the
+risk of economic damage potentially to these countries, many of
+whom, like Jamaica, for example, have also borrowed heavily
+from Venezuela in the past?
+ Ms. Oudkirk. Thank you very much for your question,
+Congresswoman Spanberger.
+ So, one of the things that we did to mitigate ancillary
+consequences on neighboring jurisdictions was OFAC issued
+General License 11, which gave a 60-day period to wind down
+U.S. person involvement in third-country interactions with
+PDVSA. So, this was designed to sort of smooth out the removal
+from the transaction chain of U.S. persons, so both individuals
+and companies. And we are looking on a sort of country-by-
+country, jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction basis at the involvement
+of PDVSA in these various basically small countries and
+islands, and figuring out what it is that needs to be done
+during that 60-day period to ensure that the focus of this
+sanction's impact remains on PDVSA, not on these small markets.
+ Ms. Spanberger. OK. Thank you. I yield back.
+ Mr. Sires. Thank you.
+ I want to thank the witnesses for being here and for your
+patience, and the members who attended today's hearing.
+ With that, the hearing is adjourned.
+ [Whereupon, at 2:35 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
+
+ APPENDIX
+[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ [all]
+