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+
+ - RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19
+
+[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
+[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
+
+
+ RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE
+ OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19
+
+=======================================================================
+
+ HEARING
+
+ BEFORE THE
+
+ SUBCOMMITTEE ON
+ HIGHER EDUCATION AND
+ WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
+
+ OF THE
+
+ COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
+ U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
+
+ ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
+
+ FIRST SESSION
+
+ __________
+
+ HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, MARCH 17, 2021
+
+ __________
+
+ Serial No. 117-2
+
+ __________
+
+ Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor
+
+[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ Available via: edlabor.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
+
+ __________
+
+
+ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
+43-870 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
+
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+
+ COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
+
+ ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman
+
+RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina,
+JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut Ranking Member
+GREGORIO KILILI CAMACHO SABLAN, JOE WILSON, South Carolina
+ Northern Mariana Islands GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania
+FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida TIM WALBERG, Michigan
+SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
+MARK TAKANO, California ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
+ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia
+MARK De SAULNIER, California JIM BANKS, Indiana
+DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey JAMES COMER, Kentucky
+PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
+JOSEPH D. MORELLE, New York FRED KELLER, Pennsylvania
+SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
+LUCY Mc BATH, Georgia MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
+JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut BURGESS OWENS, Utah
+ANDY LEVIN, Michigan BOB GOOD, Virginia
+ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
+HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
+TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico MARY E. MILLER, Illinois
+MONDAIRE JONES, New York VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
+KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
+FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana MADISON CAWTHORN, North Carolina
+JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York, Vice-Chair MICHELLE STEEL, California
+MARK POCAN, Wisconsin Vacancy
+JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas Vacancy
+MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey
+JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
+ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
+KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
+
+ Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
+ Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff Director
+ ------
+
+ SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
+
+ FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida, Chairwoman
+
+MARK TAKANO, California GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
+PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington Ranking Member
+ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
+TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
+MONDAIRE JONES, New York JIM BANKS, Indiana
+KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina JAMES COMER, Kentucky
+JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
+MARK POCAN, Wisconsin MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
+JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas BOB GOOD, Virginia
+MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
+ARIANO ESPAILLAT, New York DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
+RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
+JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut Vacancy
+SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina (ex
+ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia officio)
+ (ex officio)
+
+ C O N T E N T S
+
+ ----------
+ Page
+
+Hearing held on March 17, 2021................................... 1
+
+Statement of Members:
+ Wilson, Hon. Frederica S., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
+ Education and Workforce Investment......................... 1
+ Prepared statement of.................................... 5
+ Murphy, Hon. Gregory F., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
+ Education and Workforce Investment......................... 6
+ Prepared statement of.................................... 8
+
+Statement of Witnesses:
+ Burke, Lindsey M., Ph.D., Director, Center for Education
+ Policy, and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education, The
+ Heritage Foundation, Washington, DC........................ 19
+ Prepared statement of.................................... 22
+ Oakley, Eloy Ortiz, Chancellor, California Community
+ Colleges,
+ Sacramento, CA............................................. 14
+ Prepared statement of.................................... 17
+ Thornton, Keith, Student, Florida International University,
+ Miami, FL.................................................. 11
+ Prepared statement of.................................... 13
+ Zibel, Daniel A., Vice President and Chief Counsel, National
+ Student Legal Defense Network, Washington, DC.............. 29
+ Prepared statement of.................................... 31
+
+Additional Submissions:
+ Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from the
+ State of Oregon:
+ Report dated May 19, 2020 from the Brookings Institution,
+
+ ``Commercials for College? Advertising in Higher
+ Education''............................................ 86
+ Jones, Hon. Mondaire, a Representative in Congress from the
+ State of New York:
+ Report dated October, 2020 from National Student Legal
+ Defense, ``Protection and the Unseen: Holding
+ Executives Personally Liable under the Higher Eduction
+ Act''.................................................. 109
+ Leger Fernandez, Hon. Teresa, a Representative in Congress
+ from the State of New Mexico:
+ Article dated March 16, 2021 from the Santa Fe Reporter:
+ New Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity''..... 106
+ Link: GAO Report 19-95 dated December 21, 2018, ``FOOD
+ INSECURITY: Better Information Could Help Eligible
+ College
+ Students Access Federal Food Assistance Benefits''..... 108
+ Omar, Hon. Ilhan, a Representative in Congress from the State
+ of
+ Minnesota:
+ Link: GAO Report 19-522 dated August 19, 2020, ``Higher
+ Education: More Information Could Help Student Parents
+ Access Additional Federal Student Aid''................ 106
+ Questions submitted for the record by:
+ Banks, Hon. Jim, a Representative in Congress from the
+ State of Indiana....................................... 126
+ Fulcher, Hon. Russ, a a Representative in Congress from
+ the State of Idaho..................................... 126
+ Harshbarger, Hon. Diana, a a Representative in Congress
+ from the State of Tennessee............................ 126-7
+ Sherrill, Hon. Mikie, a Representative in Congress from
+ the State of New Jersey
+
+
+
+ Responses to questions submitted for the record by:
+ Dr. Burke................................................ 128
+ Mr. Oakley............................................... 134
+ Mr. Zibel................................................ 140
+
+
+ RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19
+
+ ----------
+
+
+ Wednesday, March 17, 2021
+
+ House of Representatives,
+ Subcommittee on Education and
+ Workforce Investment,
+ Committee on Education and Labor,
+ Washington, DC.
+ The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:03 p.m., via
+Zoom, Hon. Frederica Wilson (Chairwoman of the subcommittee)
+presiding.
+ Present: Representatives Wilson, Takano, Jayapal, Omar,
+Leger Fernandez, Jones, Manning, Bowman, Pocan, Castro,
+Sherrill, Courtney, Bonamici, Scott (ex officio), Murphy,
+Grothman, Banks, Comer, Fulcher, Miller-Meeks, Good, McClain,
+Harshbarger, Spartz, and Foxx (ex officio).
+ Staff present: Tylease Alli, Chief Clerk; Katie Berger,
+Profession Staff; Ilana Brunner, General Counsel; Sheila
+Havenner, Director of Information Technology; Eli Hovland,
+Policy Associate; Ariel Jones, Policy Associate; Andre Lindsay,
+Policy Associate; Max Moore, Staff Assistant; Mariah Mowbray,
+Clerk/Special Assistant to the Staff Director; Kayla
+Pennebecker, Staff Assistant; Veronique Pluviose, Staff
+Director; Benjamin Sinoff, Director of Education Oversight;
+Banyon Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology;
+Claire Viall, Professional Staff; Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff
+Director; Kelsey Avino , Minority Professional Staff Member;
+Courtney Butcher, Minority Director of Member Services and
+Coalitions; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education and
+Human Resources Policy; Dean Johnson, Minority Legislative
+Assistant; Hannah Matesic, Minority Director of Operations;
+Carlton Norwood, Minority Press Secretary; Alex Ricci, Minority
+Professional Staff Member; Chance Russell, Minority Legislative
+Assistant; and Mandy Schaumburg, Minority Chief Counsel and
+Deputy Director of Education Policy.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. The Subcommittee on Education and
+Workforce Investment will come to order. I believe we have a
+quorum call. We have a Member who is being waived on the
+committee. He's not a Member of the committee, but after each
+of the Members speak he will be able to participate.
+ I want to welcome everyone. I note that a quorum is
+present, so that's great. Everybody is on time and ready. The
+subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on the future
+of higher education post COVID-19. And you will notice that
+some of the women are wearing white. This is a special day for
+us, this particular suffrage day.
+ This is an entirely remote hearing. All microphones will be
+kept muted as a general rule to avoid unnecessary background
+noise. Members and witnesses they'll be responsible for
+unmuting themselves when they are recognized to speak, or when
+they wish to seek recognition.
+ I also ask that Members please identify themselves before
+they speak, so call out your name before you speak. Members
+should keep their cameras on while in the proceeding. Members
+shall be considered present in the proceeding when they are
+visible on camera and they shall be considered not present when
+they are not visible on camera.
+ The only exception to this is if they are experiencing
+technical difficulty and inform committee Staff of such
+difficulty. If any Member experiences technical difficulties
+during the hearing you should stay connected on the platform,
+make sure that you are muted, and use your phone to immediately
+call the committee's IT director, whose number was provided to
+you in advance.
+ Should the Chair experience technical difficulty I'll need
+to stop. If I have to step away to vote on the floor
+Representative Mark Takano as a Member of this subcommittee, or
+another Majority Member of the subcommittee, if he is not
+available, is hereby authorized to assume the gavel in the
+Chair's absence.
+ This is an entirely remote hearing and as such the
+committee's hearing room is officially closed. Members who
+choose to sit with their individual devices in the hearing room
+must wear headphones to avoid feedback, echoes, and distortion
+resulting from sitting in the same room.
+ Members are also expected to adhere to social distancing
+and safe healthcare guidelines, including the use of masks,
+hand sanitizers, and wiping down their areas before and after
+their presence in the hearing room.
+ In order to ensure that the committee's five-minute rule is
+adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time using the
+committee's field timer. The field timer will appear in its own
+thumbnail picture and will be named 001_timer. There will be no
+one minute remaining warning. The field timer will sound its
+audio alarm when time is up.
+ Members and witnesses are asked to wrap up promptly when
+their time has expired. While a roll call is not necessary to
+establish a quorum in official proceedings conducted remotely
+or with remote participation, the committee has made it a
+practice whenever there is an official proceeding with remote
+participation for the Clerk to call the roll and help make
+clear who is present at the start of the proceeding.
+ Members should say their name before announcing they are
+present. This helps the Clerk, and also helps those watching
+the platform and the live stream who may experience a few
+seconds delay.
+ At this time I ask the Clerk to call the roll.
+ The Clerk. Ms. Wilson?
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Ms. Wilson is here.
+ The Clerk. Mr. Takano?
+ Mr. Takano. Present.
+ The Clerk. Ms. Jayapal?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Ms. Omar?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Ms. Leger Fernandez?
+ Ms. Leger Fernandez. Ms. Leger Fernandez is here.
+ The Clerk. Mr. Jones?
+ Mr. Jones. Here.
+ The Clerk. Ms. Manning?
+ Ms. Manning. Ms. Manning is here.
+ The Clerk. Mr. Bowman?
+ Mr. Bowman. Mr. Bowman is here.
+ The Clerk. Mr. Pocan?
+ Mr. Pocan. Mark Pocan's here.
+ The Clerk. Ms. Sherill?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Mr. Espaillat?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Mr. Grijalva?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Mr. Courtney?
+ Mr. Courtney. Courtney's here.
+ The Clerk. Ms. Bonamici?
+ Ms. Bonamici. Ms. Bonamici's present.
+ The Clerk. Mr. Murphy?
+ Mr. Murphy. Murphy is present.
+ The Clerk. Mr. Grothman?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Ms. Stefanik?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Mr. Banks?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Mr. Comer?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Mr. Fulcher?
+ Mr. Fulcher. Fulcher's here.
+ The Clerk. Ms. Miller-Meeks?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Mr. Good?
+ Mr. Good. Good is here.
+ The Clerk. Ms. McClain?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Ms. Harshbarger?
+ Ms. Harshbarger. I'm present.
+ The Clerk. Ms. Spartz?
+ [No response.]
+ The Clerk. Chairwoman Wilson that concludes the roll call.
+I just wanted to add in here thank you Cheryl, thanks.
+ Ms. Foxx. Madam Chair, this is Virginia Foxx. I am present
+also and I love your hat today.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Pursuant
+to Committee Rules agency opening statements are limited to the
+Chair and the Ranking Member. This allows us to hear from our
+witnesses sooner and provide Members with adequate time to ask
+questions.
+ I recognize myself now for the purpose of making an opening
+statement. But before I do that I just have to say that I want
+to welcome especially Keith Thornton. Keith is one of your
+witnesses and you will hear from him shortly, but he is a
+member of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Projects that I
+have been bragging about to all of you for years, especially to
+you Representative Foxx.
+ Now I didn't want my time to start until now. Today we meet
+to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on higher
+education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
+education. I want to start by reaffirming a well-established
+fact that the foundation of our work that a college degree is
+the surest pathway to financial security and a rewarding
+career.
+ That is why as a Miami Dade County School Board Member, I
+led the creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence
+Project, an in-school mentoring and dropout prevention program
+that has helped prepare thousands of black boys for higher
+education and adulthood.
+ Unfortunately, the COVID 19 pandemic has created new
+barriers to postsecondary degrees. Campus closures and the
+abrupt transition to online platforms saved lives. But we know
+that remote instruction has also made it harder for students
+across the country to access and complete college.
+ These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every
+other facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic
+with fewer resources were disproportionately impacted by the
+disruption to in person instruction.
+ Research indicates that achievement gaps between black and
+white students are wider in online classes than traditional
+settings. And on campus resources that underserved students
+normally rely on, like computer labs and reliable high speed
+internet, are restricted while campuses are closed.
+ Now, fewer students--particularly fewer low-income students
+and students of color are pursuing a higher education. Social,
+psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
+students to drop out during the pandemic. And now we know
+students who discontinue their education are more likely to
+default on student loans, and less likely to re-enroll which
+lowers their chances of increased lifetime earnings.
+ Institutions are also facing unprecedented state and local
+budget shortfalls which have already caused drastic funding
+cuts and cost more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In
+addition, decreased enrollment and campus closures are eroding
+schools' revenue.
+ For example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges
+is down 10 percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider
+that when the pandemic started many institutions were still
+recovering from state budget cuts made during the Great
+Recession.
+ To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent
+funding for higher education by passing three major relief
+packages: The Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security
+Act, or CARES Act; the Coronavirus Response and Relief
+Supplemental Appropriations Act, and just last week the
+American Rescue Plan.
+ This combined investment of more than 75 billion dollars
+has helped our higher education system avert an existential
+crisis. This relief is helping institutions maintain basic
+operations, keep staff on payroll, and prepare for reopening
+safely, and it is helping students avoid hunger, homelessness,
+and other hardships.
+ Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical
+funding for state and local governments, supporting our
+nation's public institutions, the workers they employ, and the
+communities they support.
+ While this relief may have saved our higher education
+system from financial calamity, justice demands that the
+Federal Government do more, far more, to address the
+longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated by the
+pandemic.
+ For example, as institution access COVID-19 relief funding,
+we must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and
+protect students from predatory for-profit schools. These
+institutions have a well-documented record of using taxpayer
+dollars to target vulnerable students during economic
+downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees and unreasonable
+loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
+ Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of
+college. It's too expensive. This includes creating a federal
+and state partnership that incentivizes states to reinvest in
+their public institutions and offer free community college. And
+it includes expanding Pell Grants, the cornerstone of federal
+student aid, and so that fewer students that have to take
+take--fewer will have to take out student loans.
+ As the Subcommittee has already established, this pandemic
+is not only testing our students and institutions. It is also
+testing Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students
+have access to safe, affordable, and quality education.
+ Today I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise
+to that challenge. I want to thank our witnesses again, for
+being with us and I now yield to the Ranking Member Mr. Murphy
+for his opening statement. Mr. Murphy, Representative Murphy.
+ [The statement of Chairwoman Wilson follows:]
+
+ Statement of Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
+ Education and Workforce Investment
+
+ Today, we meet to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on
+higher education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
+education.
+ I want to start by reaffirming a well-established fact at the
+foundation of our work-that a college degree is the surest pathway to
+financial security and a rewarding career.
+ That is why, as a Miami-Dade County School Board Member, I led the
+creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Project, an in-school
+mentoring and drop-out prevention program that has helped prepare
+thousands of black boys for higher education and adulthood.
+ Unfortunately, the COVID-19 pandemic has created new barriers to a
+postsecondary degree.
+ Campus closures and the abrupt transition to online platforms saved
+lives. But we know that remote instruction has also made it harder for
+students across the country to access and complete college.
+ These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every other
+facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic with fewer
+resources were disproportionately impacted by the disruption to in-
+person instruction.
+ Research indicates that achievement gaps between Black and white
+students are wider in online classes than traditional settings. And on-
+campus resources that underserved students normally rely on, like
+computer labs and reliable high-speed internet, are restricted while
+campuses are closed.
+ Now, fewer students-particularly fewer low-income students and
+students of color-are pursuing a higher education at all.
+ Social, psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
+students to drop out during the pandemic. And we know students who
+discontinue their education are more likely to default on student loans
+and less likely to re-enroll, which lowers their chances of increased
+lifetime earnings.
+ Institutions are also facing unprecedented State and local budget
+shortfalls, which have already caused drastic funding cuts and cost
+more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In addition, decreased
+enrollment and campus closures are eroding schools' revenue. For
+example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges is down 10
+percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider that, when the
+pandemic started, many institutions were still recovering from State
+budget cuts made during the Great Recession.
+ To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent funding for
+higher education by passing three major relief packages:
+
+ the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or
+ CARES Act,
+
+ the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
+ Appropriations Act, and, just last week,
+
+ the American Rescue Plan Act.
+
+ This combined investment of more than $75 billion has helped our
+higher education system avert an existential crisis. The relief is
+helping institutions maintain basic operations, keep staff on payroll,
+and prepare for reopening safely. And it is helping students avoid
+hunger, homelessness, and other hardships.
+ Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical funding
+for State and local governments, supporting our nation's public
+institutions, the workers they employ, and the communities they
+support.
+ While this relief may have saved our higher education system from
+financial calamity, justice demands that the Federal Government do far
+more to address the longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated
+by the pandemic.
+ For example, as institutions access COVID-19 relief funding, we
+must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and protect
+students from predatory for-profit schools. These institutions have a
+well-documented record of using taxpayer dollars to target vulnerable
+students during economic downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees
+and unreasonable loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
+ Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of college.
+This includes creating a Federal and State partnership that
+incentivizes States to reinvest in their public institutions and offer
+free community college. And it includes expanding Pell Grants, the
+cornerstone of Federal student aid, so that fewer students have to take
+out student loans.
+ As the subcommittee has already established, this pandemic is not
+only testing our students and institutions. It is also testing
+Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students have access to
+safe, affordable, and quality education.
+ Today, I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise to that
+challenge.
+ I want to thank our witnesses, again, for being with us and I now
+yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Murphy, for his opening Statement.
+ ______
+
+ Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Chairwoman Wilson. I appreciate the
+opportunity. I love your hat also and I look forward to the
+opportunity of working with you. I enjoyed our conversation the
+other day. I think we have so much common ground to work on. I
+could not agree with you more that individuals and minorities
+and rural communities have been disproportionately affected by
+this because of school closures, all of the more reason to get
+our kids back in school.
+ America's higher education system has been in desperate
+reform for years. The systems weaknesses were further
+exacerbated by this pandemic. There are many pathways to
+success besides the traditional Baccalaureate degree, and
+institutions opposed to secondary education need to realize
+that fact if they hope to have the students thrive in the
+coming decades.
+ I could not also Chairwoman, agree with you more about the
+affordability of colleges. They've gone unchecked without
+reducing costs for years and I look forward to working with you
+on that, nothing specific. We're not here today to discuss
+whether higher education needs reform, as I think everybody on
+this committee agrees so.
+ According to one analysis, four in ten Baccalaureate degree
+recipients are underemployed in their first jobs after school,
+and roughly 60 percent of students it takes at least six years
+to complete their degree program. Certainly, these numbers are
+not worth celebrating.
+ Now is not the time to expand on policies that have failed
+us from government before. And while Congress does play a role
+in improving all forms of postsecondary education, it should
+not take the form of expensive government handouts that push
+unworkable partisan priorities, and priorities that have shown
+that government has led to the increased cost of education.
+ When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education
+system Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding
+for educational institutions to combat this once in a century,
+and hopefully, once in a much longer-term pandemic.
+ Under President Trump, Congress allocated 35 billion
+dollars, that's 35 with a B towards these efforts. Republicans
+do not take spending taxpayer dollars lightly, which is why my
+Republican colleagues voted against the Democrat led budget
+reconciliation bill.
+ We wanted to help people, but unfortunately this was pushed
+before unilateral with a large spending bill. But these
+unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled into
+educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
+return on investment. It is imperative that Congress take a
+close look at how the Department of Education and institutions
+of higher learning spend hard earned taxpayer dollars, and
+consider necessary structural reform to the Higher Education
+Act to serve students better.
+ I'm disappointed that we're not going into this further,
+and this hearing is seemingly having a lack of actual and
+necessary oversight because I believe that is our purpose. We
+have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
+taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many
+on this committee find it too easy to spend hard earned
+taxpayer dollars without promising accountability.
+ I have no problem with us investing in our students, but we
+have to hold institutions accountable. As a committee our
+loyalty should be to all students, present and future. Any
+conversations surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
+reduce the cost of attendance, and boost graduation rates while
+at the same time supporting students to pursue the type of
+education that works for them. It is not a one size fits all.
+ And that means whether it be seeking a Baccalaureate
+degree, or pursuing an equally valuable skill based
+alternative, such as a career in technical education or
+apprenticeships that lead to in demand good paying jobs.
+ Before the pandemic, there were over 7 million unfilled
+jobs in the United States, in part due to a skills gap. With
+employers in desperate need for qualified employees, now is the
+time more than ever, to strengthen all learning opportunities
+that provide students with skills and the necessary knowledge
+to succeed in the workforce.
+ This type of strategy will not only benefit students, but
+will boost our entire economy. Higher education is in a state
+of emergency, but we cannot allow this to turn into an excuse
+to nationalize the entire postsecondary education system. The
+U.S. Constitution grants no authority over education to the
+Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
+Constitution and for a good reason.
+ The founders wanted most aspects of our lives to be managed
+by those closest to them, either by State, or local or by
+family, businesses, and other elements of society. Certainly,
+they saw no role for the Federal Government in education.
+ Now if we're going to be involved in education, we ought to
+expect specific financial and productive return on our
+investment and not put students into oblivion of debt.
+Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students and
+completing affordable, postsecondary education that will
+prepare them to enter the workforce with the skills that they
+need for life long learning, and life long success.
+ We ought to work together, and I mean collaboration, to
+give students access to educational options that will prepare
+them to enter the workforce with the skills they need for that
+lifelong success. Students need pathways, not partisanship, and
+it is my hope and my expectation that this is a step in a
+productive and a bipartisan direction.
+ Again thank you all for being here. I look forward to
+discussing reforms for higher education that increase student
+access without expensive government handouts, partisan
+programs. And I want to thank the Chairwoman for a wonderful
+discussion. As I said next week I look forward to working on
+trying to do great things for our students in education, and
+provide all students with a wonderful means of pathway to
+success. Thank you, and I will yield back.
+ [The statement of Ranking Member Murphy follows:]
+
+ Statement of Hon. Gregory F. Murphy, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
+ Education and Workforce Investment
+
+ Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you to all our witnesses for
+joining us here today.
+ America's higher education system has been in desperate need of
+reform for years. The system's weaknesses were further exacerbated by
+the COVID-19 pandemic. There are many pathways to success besides the
+traditional baccalaureate degree, and institutions of postsecondary
+education need to realize this fact if they hope to help their students
+thrive in the coming decades.
+ We are not here today to discuss whether higher education needs
+reform, as both sides can agree that the system needs work. According
+to one analysis, four in ten baccalaureate-degree recipients are
+underemployed in their first jobs after school. Roughly 60 percent of
+students complete their degree program within 6 years. Certainly, these
+are not numbers worth celebrating.
+ Now is not the time to expand on failed, big government policies.
+While Congress has a role to play in improving all forms of
+postsecondary education, it should not take the form of expensive
+government handouts that push unworkable, partisan priorities.
+ When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education system,
+Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding for educational
+institutions to combat this once-in-a-century pandemic. Under President
+Trump, Congress allocated roughly $35 billion toward these efforts.
+That is 35 billion with a b.
+ Republicans do not take spending taxpayers' dollars lightly, which
+is why my Republican colleagues voted against the Democrats' budget
+reconciliation bill. Unfortunately, Democrats unilaterally pushed ahead
+with their large spending bill.
+ With these unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled
+into educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
+return on investment, it is imperative that Congress take a close look
+at how the Department of Education and institutions of higher learning
+spent hard-earned taxpayer dollars, and consider necessary structural
+reforms to the Higher Education Act to serve students better. I am
+disappointed that this hearing seems to have a glaring lack of actual
+and necessary oversight.
+ We have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
+taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many in this
+Committee find it way too easy to spend hard-earned taxpayer dollars
+without promising accountability. As a Committee, our loyalty should be
+to all students, present and future.
+ Any conversation surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
+reduce the cost of attendance and boost graduation rates, while also
+supporting students to pursue the type of education that works for
+them--whether it be seeking a baccalaureate degree or pursuing equally
+valuable, skills-based alternatives, such as career and technical
+education and apprenticeships, that lead to in-demand, good-paying
+jobs.
+ Before the pandemic, there were over seven million unfilled jobs in
+the U.S., in part due to a skills gap. With employers in desperate need
+for qualified employees, now is the time to strengthen all learning
+opportunities that provide students with the skills and knowledge
+necessary to succeed in the work force.
+ This type of strategy will not only benefit students but will boost
+our entire economy.
+ Higher education is in a State of emergency, but we cannot allow
+this to turn into an excuse to nationalize the entire postsecondary
+education sector. The U.S. Constitution grants no authority over
+education to the Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
+Constitution of the United States, and for good reason. The Founders
+wanted most aspects of life managed by those who were closest to them,
+either by State or local government or by families, businesses, and
+other elements of civil society. Certainly, they saw no role for the
+Federal Government in education. Now, if we are going to be involved in
+education, we ought to expect a civic, financial, and productive return
+on our investment.
+ Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students in
+completing an affordable postsecondary education that will prepare them
+to enter the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success.
+ We ought to work together--and I mean actual collaboration--to give
+students access to education options that will prepare them to enter
+the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success. Students
+need pathways not partisanship.
+ It is my hope that this hearing is a step in the productive and
+bipartisan direction. Again, thank you all for being here, and I look
+forward to discussing reforms to higher education that increase student
+success without expensive government handouts
+ ______
+
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Without objection, all of the Members
+who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so
+by submitting them to the Committee Clerk electronically in
+Microsoft Word format by 5:00 p.m. on March 31, 2021.
+ I will now introduce the witnesses. Keith Thornton, Jr., is
+a senior at Florida International University, FIU, where he's
+majoring in recreation and sports management. Keith is a 5000
+Role Models of Excellence Project Wilson Scholar in an
+educational talent search TRIO program alum, and he is a Pell
+Grant recipient.
+ During the COVID-19 pandemic Keith received emergency
+financial aid from both the CARES Act and CERTIA, which helped
+him stay afloat. I am pleased to recognize my colleague
+Representative Mark Takano to briefly introduce his constituent
+who is appearing before us as a witness today. Representative
+Mr. Takano, do I see you?
+ Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chair Wilson. It's my distinct honor
+to welcome Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley, who is Chancellor of
+the California Community College system. Mr. Oakley was
+appointed Chancellor for the California Community Colleges in
+2016, and is best known throughout California and the Nation
+for implementing innovative programs and policies that help
+students succeed in college.
+ One of the most exciting developments in California Madam
+Chair, is the use of alternatives to testing to actually place
+students into college level classes and avoid unnecessary
+remediation. This has huge implications for diversifying----
+ [Audio difficulties]
+ Mr. Vassar. Chairwoman Wilson, I believe Mr. Takano's
+connection became severed possibly.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. All right. So I'd like to welcome
+Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley as a witness. Welcome. It's a
+pleasure to have you here today. The Chancellor was appointed
+for the California Community Colleges in 2016, and is best
+known throughout California and the Nation for implementing
+innovative programs and policies that help students succeed in
+college.
+ Prior to becoming Chancellor Mr. Oakley was a
+Superintendent President of the Long Beach Community College
+District. After serving in the U.S. Army, Chancellor Oakley
+began his education at a community college, first enrolling at
+Golden West College and then transferring to the University of
+California Irvine where he received a bachelor of arts in
+environmental analysis and design and master of business
+administration. Welcome.
+ Our next witness is Daniel Zibel. He is the Vice President
+and Chief Counsel and co-founder of the National Student Legal
+Defense Network. Mr. Zibel is an expert on consumer protection
+and higher education and leads Student Defense Network to
+ensure that student loan borrowers can access the courts to
+assert their rights against predatory loan servicing practices.
+ Prior to joining Student Defense, Dan served as a Deputy
+Assistant General Counsel for post-secondary education at the
+Department of Education where he served as the lead legal
+counsel to the enforcement unit at Federal student aid, and on
+the Obama administration's interagency task force on foreign
+project education.
+ Mr. Zibel has a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from
+Haverford College and a law degree from the University of
+Michigan Law School. Welcome.
+ Next Ms. Lindsey Burke is a Director of the Center for
+Education Policy and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education.
+Lindsey Burke oversees the Heritage Foundation's research and
+policy on issues pertaining to pre-school, K-12, and higher
+education reform.
+ She also serves as a fellow with EdChoice, the Legacy
+Foundation of Milton and Rose Friedman and is on the National
+Advisory Board of Learn4Life, a network of public charter
+schools. Is on the board of the Educational Freedom Institute,
+and serves on the Board of Choice Media.
+ Ms. Burke holds a bachelor's degree in politics from
+Hollins University, a master of teaching degree from the
+University of Virginia, and a Ph.D. in education policy from
+George Mason University.
+ These are my instructions to you as witnesses. We
+appreciate your participation today, and we look forward to
+your testimony. Let me remind you that we have read your
+written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing
+record. Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(d) and committee practice,
+each of you is asked to limit your oral presentation to a five-
+minute summary of your written statement.
+ I also remind you as witnesses that pursuant to Title 18 of
+the U.S. Code, Section 1001, it is illegal--illegal, to
+knowingly and willfully falsify any statement, representation,
+writing, document, or material fact presented to Congress or
+otherwise conceal or cover up a material fact.
+ Before you begin your testimony please remember to unmute
+your microphone. During your testimony staff will be keeping
+track of time, and a timer will sound when time is up. Please
+be attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and
+re mute your microphone.
+ If any of you experience technical difficulties during your
+testimony, or later in the hearing, you should stay connected
+on the platform, but make sure you are muted, and use your
+phone to immediately call the IT director whose number was
+provided to you in advance.
+ We will let all of the witnesses make their presentations
+before we move to Member questions. When answering a question
+please remember to unmute your microphone. I will first
+recognize my friend and son, Keith Thornton from Florida
+International University. Keith.
+
+ STATEMENT OF KEITH THORNTON, STUDENT, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL
+ UNIVERSITY
+
+ Mr. Thornton. Good afternoon everyone. Again my name is
+Keith Thornton, Junior. Chairman Member Wilson, Ranking Member
+Murphy, Members of the subcommittee, thank you for allowing me
+to testify today. I value the opportunity to come before you on
+behalf of all students across the Nation whose educations have
+been disrupted by the pandemic and who have relied on emergency
+aid to remain financially afloat and continue pursuing their
+degree.
+ The fact that my experience during this challenging period
+is in many ways not unique is a testament to the severity of
+this crisis, and the ongoing need for Federal relief.
+ I am a senior at Florida International University studying
+recreation and sports management. And since my freshman year, I
+have benefited from the support of fellow students, teachers,
+and positive campus environment. This support network has been
+critical to helping me remain focused and weather many of the
+challenges that have arisen in the past year.
+ I am also a proud graduate of the South Florida TRIO
+Program, which enabled me to form long-lasting relationships
+with instructors and students who have been a consistent source
+of motivation. My program instructor, Ms. Tiffany Tyler,
+regularly checks in with me and checks in with my family to see
+if everything is going well with us. And there was a point in
+time where I was even contemplating whether or not college was
+for me.
+ And in the end I was able to go to my peers within the
+program and they were encouraging me to continue pushing
+through and now I'm in a position where I'm getting ready to
+graduate. And Ms. Tiffany Tyler and others provided the
+guidance and mentorship that I needed to not only continue my
+education, but to also enjoy it.
+ In the past year, these supportive relationships have been
+more important than ever. When the pandemic hit, my education
+was disrupted. I had to suspend my internship, and I lost my
+job. I had been working for about 2 months before the start of
+the semester, which enabled me to move into an apartment and
+forego taking out an additional loan and having to stay on
+campus.
+ And losing that income was a heavy blow, so it was a great
+relief when a few weeks later I received emergency funds from
+FIU that were made available through the CARES Act. And this
+aid helped me purchase school supplies and even keep up with
+bills, whether it was rent, or anything concerning my car
+because I had to travel.
+ Without that financial support, I would have been forced to
+jeopardize my future by taking out more loans that I initially
+hadn't planned for. The second round of aid that I received
+through the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
+Appropriations Act has similarly provided a lifeline that gave
+me the opportunity to continue my studies without added
+financial stress.
+ This has been critically important because even without
+having to worry about replacing the income I lost when my job
+ended, it has been challenging to remain focused on my studies.
+And although I haven't allowed myself to become discouraged, or
+to give up, COVID-19 has had a huge effect on my ability to
+stay motivated.
+ I struggled with the transition of virtual learning and not
+having the same support network around me. Without the presence
+of my peers and teachers, I felt more alone and forced to rely
+on my own strength.
+ Still, it has been my relationships with mentors,
+counselors, and other students that have enabled me to remain
+on track. And with their continued support, and thanks to the
+emergency financial aid I received, I look forward to
+graduating as soon as this summer.
+ I would like to thank the Members of this committee for
+thinking of students across the United States who, like me,
+suddenly had to take on unexpected costs when the pandemic hit,
+and for delivering meaningful relief.
+ I would also urge you to continue to provide support for
+students who are most in need. We represent the future, and I,
+like many of my counterparts, want to use our degrees to make
+an impact. Although Florida tuition rates have remained flat
+for eight years, many students would benefit from an effort
+double the Pell considering the significant financial burden
+that exists on us and our families.
+ Receiving financial aid that removes some of this strain
+helps put students in a position to thrive. And as its name
+implies, FIU has an international focus, and I want to also
+speak to the importance of ensuring that international students
+have the same opportunities to succeed.
+ They are pursuing the same dreams and have in many cases
+been equally impacted by the pandemic. So I want to thank you
+for the opportunity to speak here today, and I look forward to
+answering any questions you may have. Thank you.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Thornton follows:]
+
+ Prepared Statement of Keith Thornton
+[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much Keith, thank you. We
+will now hear from Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley. Chancellor.
+
+ STATEMENT OF CHANCELLOR ELOY ORTIZ OAKLEY, CHANCELLOR,
+ CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY COLLEGES
+
+ Mr. Oakley. Well good afternoon everyone. And Chair Wilson,
+Ranking Member Murphy, and Members of the subcommittee my name
+is Eloy Ortiz Oakley. I'm a proud community college transfer
+student, and I'm pleased to serve as the Chancellor of the
+California Community Colleges.
+ I'm honored to speak to you today on the future of higher
+education, as we look to the end finally, of the COVID-19
+pandemic. My remarks will focus on how our community colleges
+are supporting our students to stay enrolled and complete their
+studies, and how an effective partnership with Congress and the
+Federal Government can lead to an equitable recovery by
+investing in higher education and supporting the displaced
+workers ravaged by this pandemic.
+ First, let me tell you a little bit about the California
+Community Colleges. We are the largest and most diverse system
+of higher education in the Nation with 116 colleges serving
+more than 2 million students in urban, suburban, and rural
+communities. They are the primary pathway to educational and
+economic mobility for Californians, and we are proud to serve
+the top 100 percent of our students.
+ Like much of the Nation 1 year ago today, our State went
+into an immediate lockdown to ensure the health and safety of
+our workers, families, and students. Our colleges are--I want
+first commend Governor Gavin Newsom for his swift and decisive
+action. Our colleges also acted decisively.
+ In a matter of weeks our faculty and college leaders
+mobilized to convert tens of thousands of courses and programs
+to an online, or remote modality. The support of Congress has
+been critical to our system, and our students during this
+critical moment.
+ The funds provided by the CARES Act were used, among other
+things to help our diverse students purchase things like
+laptops, Wi-Fi hotspots, and as emergency financial aid to
+students who lost their jobs, in many cases were struggling to
+find their next meal, or stave off eviction.
+ As we look to the future of higher education, the most
+important task is to ensure that students can attend, and
+afford the total cost of college. As no doubt you have heard,
+community colleges have seen a sudden and alarming decrease in
+enrollments since the start of the pandemic.
+ We believe that this is due to many factors, foremost among
+them being that our students, they balance multiple
+responsibilities. They are parents. Primary breadwinners. They
+balance multiple jobs, and they share the same Wi-Fi with a
+full household and are facing--many of them are facing
+homelessness and other challenges.
+ The economic devastation brought by the COVID pandemic has
+hit our lowest income students the hardest. We are appreciative
+of the ongoing discussions about tuition free community college
+and would note that California provides nearly three billion
+dollars in student financial aid to waive tuition for low
+income students attending community colleges and four-year
+universities.
+ However, the cost of college goes beyond tuition. It
+includes textbooks, supplies such as laptops, housing, food,
+transportation and child care. We have used funds from the
+stimulus legislation passed by Congress to provide direct
+emergency one-time assistance to our most vulnerable students.
+ We need stable, permanent system of student financial aid
+that acknowledges the true costs of attending college. This is
+true not just in California, but across the country where the
+movement to double the Federal Pell is gaining momentum, and we
+are pleased to support this effort.
+ Our commitment is two-fold--increasing financial aid for
+students to cover non-tuition related expenses, and scaling
+those additional student supports that they need to complete
+their education. Additionally, financial support is needed to
+ensure equitable broad-band access for all.
+ High-speed internet is not a luxury. If anything, what we
+have learned from this pandemic is that every American
+household must have access to reliable high-speed broadband. I
+also believe the community college training programs are
+critical to preparing America's workforce, and ensuring an
+equitable recovery. California's workforce programs, including
+those funded by the Federal Perkins Career Technical Education
+Program match, employers and high-skill, high-wage industries
+with educated and qualified workers.
+ We strongly encourage these programs that provide new
+pathways to secure employment and that pay a living wage. I
+believe that we should place an emphasis of community college
+programs that focus on the skills and competencies workers need
+to get back into the workforce in a meaningful way.
+ We also further support oversight of the for-profit
+industry. We thank Congress for including the America Rescue
+Plan Act language that strengthens the 90/10 rule which helps
+hold for-profits accountable for their reliance on Federal aid
+dollars.
+ Finally, congressional action is needed to support our
+undocumented students. This is not a partisan issue for us.
+This is a moral and economic imperative. Undocumented students
+are our future teachers, business owners, doctors and
+entrepreneurs. We urge Congress to codify the deferred action
+for childhood arrivals program.
+ I will close by adding that with regard to equity higher
+education now is the time to double down on efforts to insure
+that students have the supports they need to be successful,
+whether they're in California, middle America, or the Atlantic
+Coast. I'm proud to represent a State that leads with equity at
+the center of everything we do. We cannot do this alone.
+Ongoing Federal support, a partnership with the Biden
+administration, leaders of this subcommittee and the entire
+Congress are needed to make this happen.
+ I thank you for the time. I'm honored to be here today, and
+I look forward to answering your questions.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Oakley follows:]
+
+ Prepared statement of Eloy Ortiz Oakley
+[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We will now hear from
+Lindsey Burke.
+
+STATEMENT OF DR. LINDSEY M. BURKE, Ph.D., DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR
+EDUCATION POLICY, AND MARK A. KOLOKOTRONES FELLOW IN EDUCATION,
+ THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION
+
+ Ms. Burke. Good afternoon. My name is Lindsey Burke. I am a
+Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education and the Director of
+the Center for Education Policy at the Heritage Foundation.
+ Thank you Chairwoman Scott and Chairwoman Foxx and thank
+you subcommittee Chairwoman Wilson and Ranking Member Murphy
+for the opportunity to testify today.
+ COVID-19 has posed challenges to every aspect of education
+in America from preschool through college. But it has also
+presented opportunities to rethink whether the current higher
+education system is serving students in the best way possible,
+and whether there are opportunities for reform.
+ The congressional response to COVID-19 has now included
+three major aid packages. As part of the CARES Act passed in
+March 2020, higher education received 14 billion dollars in
+additional Federal funding on top of the sector's standard
+annual appropriations.
+ That was followed by another 22.7 billion dollars in new
+funding as part of the December 2020 package. And then by the
+most recent American Rescue Plan Act which will provide yet
+another 40 billion to the higher education sector. In all,
+colleges will have received an additional 76 billion dollars in
+Federal spending over the past 12 months alone--a monumental
+sum, nearly equivalent to the Department of Education's entire
+annual discretionary budget.
+ Colleges should now take the opportunity to make sure that
+that money is used responsibly. College boards of trustees and
+regents need to direct their universities to tackle program
+prioritization and reinvest funds in programs that advance
+their core mission rather than continuing to engage in a
+facilities and amenities arms race.
+ From 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
+administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
+faculty. At the same time the 6-year completion rate for
+students pursuing a bachelor's degree stood at just 60 percent
+in 2020. One-third of college graduates are underemployed,
+working in jobs that do not require a bachelor's degree, and
+business leaders also report that college courses do not
+prepare graduates for the workforce, or provide them with the
+practical or technical skills needed to be successful in their
+careers.
+ Schools should focus resources on teaching and learning and
+should evaluate productivity by assessing and prioritizing
+academic programs that really reinforce their core mission and
+prepare students for the workforce or further academic study.
+The colleges and universities should also review facilities and
+amenities expenditures and auxiliary services such as dining
+services and student housing, janitorial services, and consider
+outsourcing delivery and management of these functions which
+are unrelated to their core mission as academic institutions.
+ And for its part Congress should not lose sight of the tens
+of billions in new relief funding now that it has been
+appropriated, and should make sure the Department of Education
+is providing timely and useful oversight of how colleges are
+spending that money.
+ Congress should also rescind the elastic clause of the HEA
+prohibiting creditors from using their title for keeping
+authority to impose onerous regulations on institutions. And
+Federal policymakers should make space for private lending to
+re-emerge and for innovative education financing options to
+flourish by reducing Federal subsidies, including eliminating
+the Federal PLUS Loan program, both the parent PLUS and grad
+PLUS components.
+ And finally, Federal officials should allow colleges to
+limit student borrowing. Currently, colleges are barred from
+assessing a student's likelihood of repaying a loan based on
+that student's course of study or borrowing history. Although
+these factors can predict a student's ability to repay their
+loans, colleges are not allowed to limit the amount students
+can borrow.
+ Congress should amend the HEA to allow colleges to limit
+borrowing, helping students to exit school with lower levels of
+debt. Colleges and universities across the country do face
+challenges associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, but so does
+nearly every sector of society. Ever increasing Federal
+spending and subsidies will not correct problems that have
+plagued the higher education sector for decades, and which
+predated the Coronavirus.
+ Congress should take this opportunity to pursue reforms
+that will help colleges navigate the pandemic, while also
+increasing their value proposition moving forward thank you.
+ [The prepared statement of Ms. Burke follows:]
+
+ Prepared statement of Lindsey M. Burke
+[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much for your testimony.
+Finally, we will hear from Daniel Zibel, welcome.
+
+ STATEMENT OF MR. DANIEL A. ZIBEL, VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF
+ COUNSEL, NATIONAL STUDENT LEGAL DEFENSE NETWORK
+
+ Mr. Zibel. Good afternoon Madam Chair Wilson, Ranking
+Member Murphy and Members of the committee. I am the Vice
+President and Chief Counsel of Student Defense. We use
+litigation and advocacy to bring change for students on issues
+of consumer protection and higher education.
+ I want to thank you for having me here today. As we all
+know beyond the health effects and tragic losses of this past
+year, the Coronavirus has fundamentally altered so many aspects
+of American lives. With respect to higher education there have
+been enormous impacts on students, perspective students,
+families, study loan borrowers and repayment, recent graduates,
+or those who left school without a credential at all.
+ COVID has exacerbated economic problems, including growing
+disparities in a system of higher education that has benefited
+so many, but has left so many others particularly in
+communities of color with long-lasting, negative effects.
+ We are seeing signs now of an enrollment resurgence at for-
+profit colleges. Although overall, post-secondary enrollment
+decline in the fall of 2020, enrollment at for-profit colleges
+actually increased. This trend is similar to what happened
+around the Great Recession, and is worrisome in light of the
+overwhelming evidence that students who attend for-profit
+colleges have worse outcomes at large than their peers at
+public or non-profit institutions.
+ Thankfully, the U.S. Department of Education has ample
+tools to make sure that taxpayer funded student loans and
+grants are not propping up predatory institutions while leaving
+students with mountains of debt and worthless degrees. This
+spring marks the 30th anniversary of a bipartisan report by the
+Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, which offered
+a scathing review of the department's oversight mechanisms and
+led to bipartisan legislation that gave the department many of
+the oversight tools it has today.
+ So at a time when the needs of students and borrowers are
+so pressing, the department is not effectively using the tools
+that Congress provided to ensure that colleges are best serving
+students and taxpayers. For example, on the heels of the 1991
+report, Congress sought to ensure that taxpayers were protected
+when colleges failed their students.
+ Because taxpayers can be on the hook for hundreds of
+millions of dollars when an institution closes or defrauds its
+students, Congress authorized the department to recover
+financial losses, not only from institutions themselves, but
+also from the individuals who own or run those institutions,
+including board members and top executives.
+ Thirty years later the department has never brought an
+action under this authority. The department has largely failed
+to fine schools for consumer facing wrongs, or issue other
+sanctions on predatory institutions. And there are far too many
+examples of the department certifying a school for years of
+access to student aid funds, even when a school is facing a
+known risk of losing State authorization or accreditation, or
+is under investigation by State and Federal law enforcement.
+ Enforcement is not just about punishing misconduct. It's
+also about deterring future misconduct. But even in terms of
+routine compliance, the department's program review process and
+compliance audits are riddled with delays and inefficiencies.
+An Inspector General's sample of 739 audits over an 11 year
+period found more than 75 percent to have been conducted in a
+failing or deficient manner.
+ I've noted additional failures in my written testimony.
+This is not to say that Federal student aid is always missing
+the mark. But given the enormous investment in student aid, and
+the life-long effects that failures can have on students and
+borrowers, the department must be doing a better job of
+oversight.
+ I want to emphasize three additional high level
+recommendations. First, FSA must embed student protections in
+all of its decisions. Decisions should be about what is best
+for students. FSA currently considers regulated entities to be
+its partners. It's long past time for students and borrowers to
+be the true borrowers of the department.
+ Second, the department must collaborate to reduce racial
+disparities around student debt. FSA should work closely with
+the department's Office for Civil Rights, and the Civil Rights
+Division of Justice, each of which has unique authorities and
+expertise.
+ Third, FSA should create a public service office to oversee
+issues relating specifically to teachers, nurses and so many
+others. There should be personnel dedicated to coordinating
+with the VA on the GI bill, and with the Department of Defense
+on post-secondary programs for military members and their
+families.
+ And the department must improve the bipartisan public
+service loan forgiveness program for all public servants. At
+this time, the department can and must do better. Oversight is
+one piece of a larger puzzle to ensure the promise of higher
+education. I look forward to your questions. Thank you.
+ [The prepared statement of Mr. Zibel follows:]
+
+ Prepared statement of Daniel A. Zibel
+[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you to all of
+the witnesses, and again welcome. Under Committee Rule 9(a) we
+will now question the witnesses under the five-minute rule. I
+will be recognizing our subcommittee Members in seniority
+order, again to ensure that the Members' five-minute rule is
+adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time.
+ And the timer will sound when time has expired. Please be
+attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and re-
+mute your microphone.
+ As chairwoman I now recognize myself for five minutes.
+ This question goes to Mr. Thornton. Have you had unexpected
+emergency expenses due to the pandemic? If so, how has
+receiving emergency funding, including from the CARES Act
+helped you meet your basic needs and ensure you could continue
+in school?
+ And how do you think additional investments in student aid,
+like restoring the purchasing power of the Pell Grant would
+impact future generations of students?
+ Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you Congresswoman Wilson. So to
+answer this question I would say that you know some unexpected
+emergency expenses that have come up due to the pandemic are
+kind of what I mentioned was me, unfortunately losing my job
+last year, right before school started.
+ Initially I had the job for about 2 months, and it put me
+in a position to where I was comfortable enough to be able to
+go out and you know get my own apartment. And with the job not
+needing as many employees, I was let go from that job, so it
+put me in a position to where I had to pour a lot of funds from
+my savings, and it put me in a position to where I wasn't
+really as able to provide for myself in terms of rent, bills,
+and even things concerning school, being able to purchase
+materials.
+ So as far as receiving under the CARES Act, it literally
+came just in time, and I was able to use that to not only take
+care of myself as far as where I was staying, but even take
+care of myself as far as school is concerned. And I purchased
+the necessary materials in order to stay afloat and gain the
+wisdom and knowledge that I needed in order to pass my courses.
+ So that was about later last year sometime, and to answer
+your question as far as additional investments in student aid.
+I think it would be awesome. I think it definitely would help
+us as students a lot, just given the current situation still
+with this pandemic, a lot of people are still losing their
+jobs.
+ It's hard for people to even find jobs, and a lot of
+people, students my age, we work so that we can take care of
+ourselves as far as school is concerned. So when it comes to
+receiving additional funds and additional aid it would help a
+lot. I think it would definitely have a huge impact on us being
+able to stay in school an also be able to provide for ourselves
+concerning our school as well.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. And with programs
+like 5,000 Role Models of Excellence and the TRIO Program
+alone, how has mentoring impacted your success?
+ Mr. Thornton. I would say it has greatly impacted my
+success even now. As I mentioned with a shout out to Ms.
+Tiffany Tyler who has played a huge role in me being here, in
+my first year here, she made it memorable, honestly.
+ And for her to continue to remain in contact with me,
+checking with me, see how I'm doing with school, checking in on
+my GPA, making sure that I'm able to stay afloat, making sure
+that I'm applying to scholarships. She honestly helped me out
+so much. And for that I'm extremely grateful.
+ And even within the 5000 Role Models of Excellence Program
+and TRIO Program, outside of mentors I was able to build
+lasting relationships with young men like myself who were a
+part of this program and who are still pursuing a degree. I
+know that Ms. Congresswoman Wilson is familiar with a fine
+young man named Preston Cooper who not only was my roommate he
+was a 5,000 Role Models Alum.
+ And he's honestly been a great addition to my life and has
+helped me grow in many different ways. So the 5,000 Role Model
+in Excellence Program and TRIO Program has been tremendous and
+has helped me to get where I am now, as I mentioned to
+potentially be able to graduate by the end of this summer.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Mr. Zibel how can the
+Department of Education better protect students, especially
+those most vulnerable to abuse from predatory institutions?
+Predatory actors.
+ Mr. Zibel. Sure thank you Chair Wilson. Look, under over
+the last 4 years I think what we've seen is an administration
+that eviscerated a lot of important protections for students.
+Repealing the gainful employment rule, raising the bar for
+Trump borrower defense, or you know the student loan discharges
+for defrauded students, you know, to the point where I think
+the last Congress even used the Congressional Review Act to try
+to veto what Secretary DeVos had done, stalling a worse relief
+for borrowers who had been defrauded by for-profit colleges.
+ So part of it is restoring a lot of those protections, but
+that's not it. That can't be it. There has to be a cultural
+shift at the department by putting student interest first.
+Enforcement in this space can't just be about punishing actors,
+and providing debt relief after the fact. We've got to be
+deterring conduct in the first place.
+ Student lives are at stake, and the ramifications of this
+are long-lasting, so we really need to be thinking about that
+first. Our organization has been writing a lot about this over
+the past six-months at 100daydocket.org about how to
+reinvigorate enforcement and really put those culture
+protections at the front end for all students and student loan
+borrowers.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I now recognize Dr.
+Foxx for her questioning.
+ Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman I appreciate that. Dr.
+Burke, well thanks to all of our witnesses today. Dr. Burke
+thank you for your testimony. Congressional Democrats are
+passionate about oversight of one particular sector of
+postsecondary education, the for-profit sector.
+ The congressional Republicans care about all students at
+all institutions. What are the current institutional
+accountability metrics in the Higher Ed Act and how effective
+are they? Were these effective during the pandemic, or were
+they exposed as deficient?
+ Ms. Burke. Well thank you Chairwoman Foxx for that
+question. The current accountability metrics in the Higher
+Education Act, I would say are rather lacking if we just look
+at outcomes. And that applies to all sectors. I think that it
+is inaccurate to say that problems in higher education are
+solely a function of career and technical education programs.
+ If we look at traditional four-year brick and mortar
+colleges, unfortunately, we see low graduation rates across the
+board. I mentioned that the 6-year graduation rate is 60
+percent earlier, that's something that should concern us all.
+ I really think that we should compare apples to apples when
+we're thinking about accountability. If you look at certificate
+programs across the country, just 45 percent of students who
+pursue a certificate at a public college had earned it with 3
+years. That figure actually rises to 70 percent for students
+who attend for-profit colleges.
+ And then there are other metrics as well. Andrew Gillan who
+researches in this area found that there are 514 colleges, many
+of these are community colleges at which the loan default rates
+of their students actually exceed their graduation rates, and
+he has called these red flag institutions.
+ And so you know we need accountability across the board. I
+think one way to do that is to advertise the college scorecards
+a little bit more. There's a lot of data already on that
+college scorecard. There are data about almost everything that
+you could want to know about college outcomes.
+ So I think it would help greatly if we had actors in the K-
+12 space like school boards, across the country making public
+schools aware of the information, making guidance counselors
+aware so they can provide that information to students.
+Sunlight really is the best disinfectant and that applies to
+accountability within the higher education system as well.
+ And then of course I would argue that one of the
+accountability measures that we really need is accountability
+for taxpayer dollars because at the end of the day our taxpayer
+funds, the Federal Government originates and services 90
+percent of all student loans now.
+ And a big step in the right direction, as I mentioned
+earlier, would actually be to reduce some of these Federal
+subsidies to make space for private lending to re-emerge.
+Private lenders are in a better position to judge a student's
+ability to repay those loans moving forward.
+ I think that is the single best accountability measure that
+we could put into place.
+ Ms. Foxx. Well thank you very much. When I heard Mr. Zibel
+say that it is inappropriate to punish actors, and we needed to
+put students first, I thought that he was talking about the
+Obama administration actually.
+ Do you have an idea on how we could align the incentives of
+institutions, employers, taxpayers, and students. I think you
+mentioned about accountability, but how do we align the
+incentives so that it appears to be a win-win, instead of a
+win-lose situation all the time?
+ Ms. Burke. Yes that's a great question Representative Foxx.
+I think one of the best things to do is really a State level
+effort, and we're already seeing this in 32 states across the
+country, Virginia, Tennessee, Indiana, many others, where they
+have policies in place that allocate their funds to public
+colleges based on measures that include course completion, so I
+think that's one good step in the right direction.
+ And then again at the end of the day, I think we can take a
+cue from the market. We can look at what industry is doing when
+it comes to really realigning incentives. There are many
+industry upscaling programs that are out there at the moment.
+You can look at companies, Amazon, FedEx, others that will
+actually prepay tuition for programs that are aligned with
+different career paths within their organization, and so I
+think that's a way to really responsibly align incentives.
+ A lot of that though is going to have to happen at the
+State level and within the private sector.
+ Ms. Foxx. Great. Well you gave me a good segue to talk
+about fostering a culture of life-long learning, which we think
+is very important. But the current system is not designed for
+multiple access points and off ramps. What HEA reforms can
+Congress make to create a system where short-term programs,
+stackable credentials, and life-long learning is the new
+normal?
+ Ms. Burke. Well that's such a critical question as well.
+You know there are conversations right now around allowing
+existing Title IV funds to go to shorter term programs to allow
+students to direct those dollars to options that currently
+aren't eligible under ETA rules because of those time
+limitations.
+ I think that's a really good step in the right direction.
+That would enable a lot of individuals, people who want to
+switch careers, you know, mid-career to engage in earn and
+learn opportunities, to take some of those Title IV funds to
+shorter term program.
+ I think that's a step in the right direction. There are
+larger reforms that need to take place like decoupling Federal
+financing from accreditation to allow Title IV dollars to flow
+in a more piecemeal way, but at least in the near-term, those
+short-term options are a good step in the right direction.
+ Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman. I yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. Mr. Takano of
+California. Mr. Takano are you still connected? We'll come back
+to Mr. Takano. Is Mr. Murphy on? Mr. Murphy of North Carolina,
+Mr. Murphy.
+ Mr. Murphy. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson. First of all I
+want to acknowledge Keith Thornton, Mr. Thornton, just to
+congratulate you on the fine work that you've done, wish you
+the best of success. You know that success comes from within,
+and it doesn't come from being handed down to you, but it comes
+from hard work and opportunity.
+ So I congratulate you on what you've done, and encourage
+you to do even greater things and we look forward to hearing
+back from you. So a question I'll direct, at least the first
+one toward Dr. Burke, and thank you for joining us today. Your
+testimony will help us as we seek to work with our Democratic
+colleagues to reform the HEA, and the best interest of students
+and taxpayer.
+ I want to stress the importance of bipartisanship. Last
+year Congress came together in a bipartisan manner to pass two
+COVID-19 relief packages that included specific, and very
+significant funding for postsecondary education.
+ I have to say I was disappointed that this last funding
+package went across party lines and was not a bipartisan
+effort, and that's disappointing I think, not only for the
+country, but for our Congress as whole. We need to really work
+together. The American people are better served when we tackle
+problems shoulder to shoulder.
+ In that vein Dr. Burke, let me ask your assessment of what
+Congress did last year with the Higher Education Emergency
+Relief Funding. Can you put into context the size and the scope
+of the postsecondary educational bailout? You talked about
+numbers before, but I'd like you to flush that out a little bit
+more if you will.
+ Ms. Burke. Sure. Thank you Representative Murphy for that
+question. I did talk about numbers before. I think it's
+important to reiterate some of those numbers. The CARES Act was
+14 billion for higher ed, and then we saw the second package in
+December. That was another 21 billion dollars in that
+supplemental proposal.
+ And then again colleges and universities will receive 40
+billion as a result of this third package. So in all we're
+talking about over 70 billion dollars. As I said this is more
+than the entire Department of Education's annual discretionary
+budget, so it really is a breathtaking sum.
+ I did a back of the envelope calculation this morning, and
+if you consider the fact that there are 20 million roughly,
+college students across the country, and we have now expended
+as a result of these three packages in additional Federal
+spending, 76 billion. That's over $3,800.00 per college
+student, just in these additional funds that have gone out the
+door.
+ So it really is like I said, I don't think there's a better
+word to describe it than a breathtaking sum of new Federal
+spending. And of course this is not free money. This is
+taxpayer money. It gets handed down to future generations.
+Right now we have about 28 trillion dollars standing as our
+national debt, that's $84,000.00 per person in the country, and
+this will certainly add to that.
+ So it's a large amount of money and it really needs some
+oversight.
+ Mr. Murphy. I think we're good. That's OK. All right. Well
+thank you Dr. Burke. Let me just say you know I've been very
+concerned about administrative bloat, and I wrote a couple
+papers on that. I was on a board of trustees at a liberal arts
+college, and I saw our administrative bloat compared to the 42
+other sister colleges skyrocket.
+ My fear is that Mr. Zibel would prefer we had more
+committees, more Vice Presidents, more other bureaucracy. And
+as we've seen the level, the amount of educational dollars that
+actually go toward teaching students, does pale in comparison
+to that of adding more administrative bloat.
+ I fear that now that we've poured all this massive money to
+colleges, instead of actually learning to contract their
+budgets and be responsible with them, will actually do just the
+opposite. We'll see more lazy rivers. We'll see more quiet
+oasis rooms. We'll veer from the mission of colleges to teach
+students before.
+ So to your point they're going to now be flush with money.
+And anybody flush with money is probably in some ways, I fear,
+because of higher education and what they've done historically
+in the last 10-15 years, they're going to spend it. And what
+does that do in all of a sudden 5-10 years when that money runs
+out, all of a sudden that is going to be demanded upon students
+and giving them much, much, much higher access or risk, or
+again being bankrupt when they have all these massive charges.
+ I wish you could speak to that just a little bit about
+administrative bloat, and what this money is you think in your
+prediction, is actually going to do to college costs in the
+future.
+ Ms. Burke. Sure thank you for that question. Administrative
+bloat is a huge problem. We have seen significant numbers and
+staffing increases over the past decade. I mentioned earlier
+that from 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
+administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
+faculty and colleges across the country.
+ If you just look at non-instructional staff at universities
+around the country, that now accounts for more than half of
+university payroll costs, the non-instructional staff. Just 40
+percent of full-time employees at non-doctoral colleges are
+instructional staff.
+ And that figure actually drops to 28 percent at doctoral
+granting institutions. So just 28 percent at those institutions
+are teaching faculty. This is something that higher education
+scholar Preston Cooper has looked into at length, and he has a
+new report he just put out that I would commend where he
+recently found that since 2003 only one-third of the increase
+in colleges and universities core expenditures has gone to
+spending on instruction, just one-third of the increase goes to
+instruction.
+ As he says almost all of the rest has fed the growth of the
+vast administrative apparatus of these institutions. And so as
+I mentioned in my opening statement, colleges really have
+needed a course correction for decades, and so you know, I
+think too many unfortunately are now looking at these various
+stimulus bills as a way to pay for general fiscal mal-
+administration over the past two decades.
+ Mr. Murphy. Dr. Burke thank you. We're passed our time. I
+appreciate it. Thank you Madam Chairman, I'll yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you Mr. Murphy. Ms. Burke you are
+consistently going over time. Please be mindful of the clock.
+It's there for you. You seem not to hear me when I'm telling
+you that you're over time, so you will have to keep up with the
+time, and when you see that your time is up please stop. We
+have a long hearing and a lot of people to ask questions. Thank
+you.
+ Mr. Takano of California is our next person, speaker.
+ Mr. Takano. Thank you Madam Chair. My question is for
+Chancellor Oakley. Chancellor could you comment briefly on how
+California deals with the balance between the administrative
+costs and instructional costs?
+ Mr. Oakley. Absolutely. And it's a pleasure to be here
+again answering these questions. First of all in California you
+know each State is different. But in California in the
+community colleges, we actually have a law. It's called the 50
+Percent Law, which requires every community college to assign
+at least 50 percent of all revenues that come from the State to
+instruction, to the classroom.
+ Now because the nature of instruction has changed quite a
+bit over time, we have had to expand that view because there
+are a number of other efforts that go into supporting a
+student, including a lot of the student supports that help a
+student succeed. So that is the way we handle it, and I would
+also say that because our system is comprised of 73 districts,
+all have locally elected boards, as well as a State system
+which has a board of Governors.
+ There is a sunlight all over our system. So these questions
+are constantly addressed. They're constantly examined, and
+we're constantly being held accountable for where our dollars
+go.
+ Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor. You know this hearing is
+in relationship to the American Rescue Plan and how it relates
+to education. I know that in California your sister
+institutions, the California State University System, and the
+UC system, have suspended the use of standardized tests for the
+purposes of admission.
+ Do you expect that--it's not really an experiment, it was
+sort of forced by circumstances. Do you expect these sorts of
+things, these sorts of practices to continue after the pandemic
+is over?
+ Mr. Oakley. I do. In the California community colleges
+we've eliminated the use of standardized placement exams. We
+have found through our own research, as well as research that's
+happened across the country, that the use of standardized exams
+for the purpose of placing the students in courses has
+significantly undermined low-income students from all
+backgrounds.
+ The same is true for standardized admissions exams. And I
+think the research is overwhelming now. I think places like the
+University of California have seen the impact that it has had
+on low-income students and communities of color. And I don't
+believe that we are going back to those practices in the
+future.
+ Mr. Takano. Is it not true that this innovation, this
+experimentation of not using tests like the placement, or to
+place students into college level classes at California
+community colleges. But that was going on pre-pandemic is what
+I understand, and can you tell us about what you've seen? Is
+your faculty happy with this? Have the outcomes been good? Have
+your transfer rates suffered because of the fact that you're
+placing students by using instruments other than standardized
+tests?
+ Mr. Oakley. So first of all the use of what we call
+multiple measures placement. That is using multiple sources of
+information to gain information about a student, and place them
+in the course that they deserve to be in, and particularly in
+math and English, has been going on for several years in
+certain pilots across the system.
+ A couple of years ago this became law for the entire
+system. Since then students who have been placed using this
+method, without using standardized placement exams, students
+are succeeding in numbers equal to those students that may have
+begun in remedial courses before then.
+ We have seen significant, significant increases in the
+number of students of color that have been placed in transfer
+level English and math, and they are succeeding at the same
+rates as other students. So we have seen nothing but success
+thus far. It's given us a lot of good information about how we
+continue to roll this system out.
+ And as we continue to rely less and less on remedial
+courses, and rely more and more on providing students a pathway
+to getting into courses that actually count toward their
+educational goal. And that's been the biggest change. So many
+courses were created in remedial education before this change
+that were leading nowhere.
+ And so many students, particularly those of low income
+status were getting trapped in these courses and not being able
+to complete their educational goal.
+ Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor my time is up. It sounds
+like innovation was already happening in California community
+colleges, and it sounds like diversifying the higher education
+is also being significantly impacted. Madam Chair I yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We'll now here from
+Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin.
+ Mr. Grothman. Yes. Thanks for having me. I have a question
+here for Dr. Burke. You know over the weekend I ran into
+another woman, age 51. She got laid off. She had a general
+degree, had a good job, and now she can't find anything. And
+she was just bemoaning the fact that when she was you know,
+rather than go to a four-year college, why she wasn't a welder,
+a medical tech of some nature, something or other.
+ And I still hear back home well-paid guidance counselors
+advising everybody to go to college when again and again, I
+find people not going to college lined up higher paid with less
+student debt, and more job security. What can we do to
+straighten out these reasonably well-paid guidance counselors
+to give people a little bit better advice, not to mention, on
+the other end of the thing.
+ When I talked to our employers in construction, in medical
+field, and manufacturing. Well right now the only thing holding
+us back from building more housing in Wisconsin, we can't find
+anybody to do the work. What can we do to straighten out these
+guidance counselors there Dr. Burke? It's a lot of people's
+lives.
+ Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Grothman. I completely
+agree with you that we need to be communicating to students
+that there are multiple pathways to climbing the ladder of
+upward, economic mobility in America. And too often, the only
+answer that we give them when asked what they should do, is
+attend a traditional four-year college.
+ And that has not served many students well who would be
+better situated in the future if they did something other than
+go through that four-year brick and mortar route. And you know
+to your point about construction workers and mechanics,
+electricians, waitresses, you know, all of these individuals
+end up bearing the cost of Federal bailouts, and ever-
+increasing Federal subsidies in the higher education sector.
+ I think it's always important to bear in mind that still
+today two-thirds of Americans do not hold bachelors degrees,
+and it is that two-thirds of Americans who also have to pick-up
+the cost for ever-increasing Federal spending.
+ Mr. Grothman. OK. I'll give you a general question. You
+know again I hear talking to my trade unions or tech schools
+and people, you know, going back, getting a skill, maybe in
+their early 30's, after they already got a college degree in
+their early 20's.
+ Percentage-wise Doctor Burke, I have no idea what
+percentage of people going to a four-year college would be
+better off not going to one today in your opinion.
+ Ms. Burke. Well it's hard to say, and it depends on how you
+quantify better off. You know even an individual who might not
+see a massive increase in earnings after having graduated,
+might still say that the experience was worthwhile for them.
+ People go to college for a lot of different reasons. But
+one thing we do know is there are an awful lot of students who
+leave without earning that paper credential that they had so
+fought to get. So many students right now are leaving without
+graduating, and I mentioned 60 percent, 6 year college
+graduation rate. And really the worst position you can be in is
+having gone to two or three or three and a half years of
+undergrad work, taken out those loans and not graduated with
+that paper credential.
+ And unfortunately, we do see that in many cases. So I think
+that for those individuals you could make the case that another
+path would have been much more worthwhile, but it is hard to
+quantify.
+ Mr. Grothman. Well, OK I know there's certain authors who
+take a stab at it, but I'm going to come back to the woman I
+talked to over the weekend. You know I frequently make the
+pitch for young people to get a skill, rather than college, and
+that you're going to graduate with less debt, and frequently
+make more money immediately.
+ One thing I don't think is taken into account is if you do
+wind up with some middle low management thing, and you're laid
+off when you're 50 or 55, in our society frequently you're
+almost unemployable. Whereas if you have a skill, you can keep
+working until you're 60 or 70 or 80 if you want to. Could you
+comment on the benefit of having a skill, a specific skill set
+in manufacturing, med, tech, whatever, as opposed to a general
+degree on people who get laid off when they're over 40?
+ Ms. Burke. Sure. Well what we do know, and I can't give you
+specific numbers on the skill-based side. But what we do know
+is that there are a large proportion of students who are
+leaving undergraduate work, and entering jobs that do not
+require a college degree. And so this high level of what we
+refer to as underemployment is a real problem.
+ And I think does suggest that many of those students would
+have been better served pursuing options that are skills-based
+in nature.
+ Mr. Grothman. Well thank you Dr. Burke. I appreciate what
+you're saying, and I hope you continue to educate young people
+around the country to get a second opinion from their guidance
+counselors, who are frequently well-paid and giving bad advice
+for their pay. Thank you.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ms.
+Jayapal from Washington I see you driving, welcome.
+ Ms. Jayapal. Thank you Madam Chair. I am not driving I
+promise you, but I am in a car because I didn't want to miss
+this very important hearing. It is clear that the pandemic has
+had a negative impact on college enrollment for all students,
+particularly low-income, first generation, and certainly
+freshman of color, who we've seen a nearly 30 percent decline
+in community college enrollment across the country.
+ And since a degree, a higher education degree, whether it's
+skills training, or a four year college, remains a strong
+pathway to the middle class our economic recovery may be
+largely dependent on affordable access to postsecondary
+education. And that's why I'm excited for the Seattle Promise
+Program in my district, and proposals like My College for All
+Act which President Biden has embraced, to make both four-year
+and two year public higher education free for families earning
+up to $125,000.00.
+ Mr. Thornton it's very clear from your testimony that
+Federal programs like TRIO have been meaningful to you
+personally, and in your student career, in spite of programs
+that help some students shoulder the cost of textbooks,
+housing, food, and childcare, data still shows that due to
+COVID-19 as many as 56 percent of students will need additional
+aid to stay enrolled.
+ Is it your opinion that more comprehensive Federal
+assistance would help students to stay in school?
+ Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for asking, and I
+definitely agree that additional funding would help students be
+able to stay in school. I think kind of being a living
+testimony to the current situation with the pandemic, me plus a
+bunch of other students like myself, some people we literally
+worked, some students we worked to actually stay in school to
+pay tuition, to pay to afford books and school materials.
+ And I think that additional funding definitely would assist
+in the students being able to stay in school, and pursue their
+dreams, or their dream job, or pursue a career with their
+major.
+ Ms. Jayapal. So important. Thank you so much. Considering
+Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of the [audio issues] to
+less than 30 percent at a public four-year college, would you
+speak more on this disparity making college increasingly out of
+reach for too many people?
+ Mr. Vassar. I think the beginning of your question was not
+heard Congresswoman Jayapal.
+ Ms. Jayapal. Oh OK, thank you. This is a question for
+Chancellor Oakley. Non-tuition costs are an important
+consideration since Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of
+expenses to less than 30 percent at a public four-year college.
+Would you speak more on this disparity making college
+increasingly out of reach for too many people?
+ Mr. Oakley. Absolutely and thank you for that question
+Representative Jayapal. This is particularly an acute situation
+in states like California. High cost of living states, high
+cost of living communities. Our students, particularly those
+who attend California community colleges and those who attend
+broad access public institutions come from some of the lowest
+income communities in California and throughout the country.
+ So the cost of attending college is the most significant
+cost. States like California for example, the California
+community colleges has the lowest tuition in the country. In
+addition, more than half of our students don't pay tuition
+because of the California College Promise.
+ So the cost of attending college, the true cost of
+attending college is the issue that keeps so many students from
+one, attending college, and two, attending full-time because so
+many of them have to juggle multiple issues, have to maintain
+work in order to provide for their families and for their own
+education.
+ So Pell is a significant component to helping those
+individuals afford to go to college, to complete their college
+education in a four-year period of time. And it has not been
+keeping up with the cost of attending college.
+ And so supporting an increase in Pell is certainly
+something that we support, as well as continuing to reduce the
+cost of attendance is also a key ingredient.
+ Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And my College For All bill
+would double Pell, and it would allow states with tuition
+programs to redirect any of their savings toward making college
+more accessible. How would--my College for All bill also uses a
+Federal/State partnership to make public four-year universities
+free for qualifying students.
+ Chancellor, how would having a Federal partnership that
+allows states to redirect savings to non-tuition costs help
+colleges nationally as they struggle with low enrollment?
+ Mr. Oakley. Well I believe this Federal/State partnership
+is critical. States are in the primary role of providing
+support for our colleges and universities and they're doing--
+states like California are doing a remarkable job of providing
+the additional support, lowering tuition, keeping tuition low,
+keeping the cost of college low.
+ So this partnership would be beneficial in that states like
+California could use those additional resources to provide
+additional support for students, either support services or
+support for non-tuition related costs.
+ Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And this is a key important
+piece, and I look forward to working with you. Madam Chair I
+yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. According
+to my records Mr. Good of Virginia is the next questioner. Mr.
+Good you're on.
+ Mr. Good. Thank you Madam Chairman, and thank you to all of
+our witnesses for being with us today. My questions will be
+directed specifically to Dr. Burke. Dr. Burke I wanted to ask
+you how do you think Federal funding has contributed to the
+exploding costs of higher education?
+ Ms. Burke. Well thank you for that question Representative
+Good. It has clearly contributed. If you look at the inflation
+adjusted tuition rates since the 1970's. Those have quintupled
+at both public and private colleges across the country. And
+then when you compare that number to Federal subsidies, and
+those subsidies over the same time period have really increased
+dramatically with spending on student loans rising 328 percent
+over the last 30 years, from about 20 billion in 1990 to about
+87.5 billion in the most recent year of data available.
+ So, and I would also say that this question of
+disinvestment and State spending is I think, also a little bit
+off the mark. Because if you look at appropriations for public
+colleges and universities at the State level, those have
+increased $1,700.00 per pupil in real terms since 1980.
+ So it is safe to say, I would agree with Economist Richard
+Vetter at the University of Ohio that dumping Federal subsidies
+out of helicopters as he once put it, has only enabled
+universities to increase their costs, their spending
+profligately, and really pass that on to students.
+ Mr. Good. I've had students tell me, and parents tell me
+that once they get on the student loan treadmill it just
+continues. In other words they get loans, it's almost you have
+to work deliberately to stop the student loans from coming.
+Once you enroll that first semester that first year, it seems
+automatic.
+ In your testimony you talked about requiring university's
+report on the use of Federal funding. What specific questions
+might you ask them to report on?
+ Ms. Burke. Sure. And I think specifically with regard to
+the new money that has gone out the door, we really need to
+know whether colleges are using these funds to actually help
+students who are struggling. There's statutory requirements.
+About 50/50 of those dollars going to student-based aid, and
+then the other 50 percent going to institutional priorities,
+but we really do need to take a look and encourage colleges,
+and the Department of Ed to assess if they're sending that
+money to students who are financially struggling.
+ And then second I would say, we should assess if they're
+actually using those funds to build out their IT and distance
+learning capacities to navigate any sort of similar existential
+threat in the future that they might face like another
+pandemic.
+ Mr. Good. You've done a great job of verbalizing what most
+of us have already seen in the way that college education costs
+are just going through the roof, far outpacing inflation,
+multiple times over.
+ Besides addressing funding, what policies do you think
+Congress could do that could help enact the amount of the non-
+classroom, non-education expenses specifically, the more what
+many might think are wasteful or exorbitant, or excessive,
+whether it's staff, or whether it's activities that are being
+funded.
+ What role do you think Congress could play. How could
+Congress help address the amount of spending that's going to
+administrative type and other, maybe what some people might
+think, excessive and wasteful spending?
+ Ms. Burke. Well I think the single best thing Congress
+could do would be eliminate the Plus Loan program. The Grad
+Plus Loan program in particular, this allowed graduate students
+to borrow up to the cost of attendance, and then the Parent
+Plus program allows parents to borrow for their undergrad
+student's college experience.
+ And that really encourages, a family level of debt, and
+family level borrowing for families. So eliminating the Plus
+Loan program would be the No. 1 step to take. And as I
+mentioned earlier, actually allowing colleges themselves to
+limit the amount of money that students borrow.
+ Mr. Good. It seems we have systemic issues where there's
+not a partnership between parents, families if you will, of
+students and the institutions, and trying to together work to
+make college affordable without putting people of course into
+excessive debt.
+ What might be included? What role might Congress play to
+help improve competition in such that like a career in
+education, a technical education, temporary programs,
+vocational programs, community college, and other workforce
+development pathways might be able to get on equal footing with
+the traditional four-year school.
+ Ms. Burke. Yes thanks. Again, I think one of the best
+options there would actually be reforming accreditation,
+decoupling Federal financing from accreditation to allow new
+quality assurance mechanisms to pop up, to allow a State to for
+instance, enable the Mayo Clinic to credential a nursing
+course, or the State of Virginia to allow Mount Vernon to
+credential a history course.
+ And then enable Title IV funds to actually follow students
+to those individually credentialled courses and courses of
+study. And again, couple that with those short-term options for
+Title IV funding that would allow individuals to go find the
+skills and competencies they need immediately without going
+through a four-year brick and mortar college, would be a second
+extremely important step in that direction.
+ Mr. Good. I think I've about expired my time. I thank you
+very much for answering my questions, and again appreciate you
+and all the other witnesses being with us today. I yield back
+my time Chairman.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Ms. Leger Fernandez
+of New Mexico welcome.
+ Ms. Leger Fernandez. Hello. Thank you so much Chair Wilson.
+And thank you to the witnesses for joining us today. Mr. Zibel,
+we've heard misrepresentations about your testimony. Would you
+like to respond quickly?
+ Mr. Zibel. Thank you Congresswoman. You know I think there
+were two comments. One from Ranking Member Foxx. I guess to put
+it bluntly, I don't think I said anything about punishment not
+being important. I think it is an important aspect of deterring
+misconduct.
+ And when there is an institution of higher education, and
+we've seen this for decades. I really would encourage the
+Members to go back and look at the bipartisan report that
+Senator Sam Nunn and his committee drafted, back in the early
+nineties.
+ And it really is deja vu all over again for some of what
+we've been seeing. And you know this is about protecting
+students at the front end. This is about making sure that
+students aren't saddled with debt, that they will never repay
+because of worthless degrees. This is about making sure that
+individuals are getting the economic opportunity through
+education to better their lives, and to ensure that the
+taxpayer investment in this, through grants and loans is being
+well spent.
+ So you know it's not about partisan politics. I think if
+you look back at the history of this, Secretary Bennett, the
+Education Secretary under President Reagan was a fierce critic
+of the for-profit education industry, and for good reason at
+that time. And you know, history has a tendency to repeat
+itself, and you know, that's what the Department of Education
+needs to be doing, is really making sure that that does not
+happen again.
+ It does not happen to saddle yet another generation of
+students with these mountains of debts that will never be
+repaid.
+ Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you for that clarification, and
+also making sure that we all focus. Our focus should be,
+indeed, on the students. And in thinking about the focus on the
+students I am, like the chair and others who have testified
+today, concerned about the non-tuition costs of college, and
+that the pandemic has simply worsened food insecurity, and that
+that's something that the Rescue Act can address with the
+emergency funding.
+ Miss Chairwoman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
+record an article from the Santa Fe Reporter entitled, ``New
+Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity.''
+ Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
+ Ms. Leger Fernandez. I'm also concerned about declines in
+student enrollment. And students of color in particular, right,
+have seen steep enrollment declines during the pandemic. In New
+Mexico, as an example, we've seen about a 10 percent decline
+from fall 2019 to fall 2020.
+ We are also in New Mexico, facing the need to diversify our
+energy sector and move to a green economy, and will really need
+those partnerships without our higher education schools to lead
+in training for this just renewable innovative economy, like I
+like to say, in New Mexico.
+ In Santa Fe Community College we just partnered with our
+National Labs and the renewable energy sector connecting
+schools and employers. Chancellor Ortiz Oakley, what do you
+believe are the best practices to recover student enrollment,
+and especially addressing those programs which could develop
+the workforce for new economies like the green economy?
+ Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman.
+First and foremost, I strongly believe that community colleges
+are the greatest answer to a recovery with equity in America.
+They are closest to the students that we're talking about. They
+open their arms to every student, whether recently displaced
+worker, or a recent graduate from a high school.
+ And community college is college, so they are preparing
+students for success in 21st Century economy. So first of all,
+I believe one of the greatest impacts on our students has been
+the economic fallout, the health effects from the pandemic. Our
+communities of color and low-income communities have been hit
+the hardest. So for them it is an economic issue, so providing
+direct, emergency support of any kind possible, is one of the
+best antidotes to helping them be able to make the choice
+between paying rent, and paying for their tuition and books, so
+that they can continue their education.
+ Second, it's addressing the needs of displaced workers. So
+many working adults were already struggling post the last
+recession. This pandemic, the economic fallout, has devastated
+their opportunity to be in the economy in a meaningful way. So
+supporting short-term, career-training programs, to help get
+the support, the skills and competencies that workers need
+today, I think is critically important to a recovery with
+equity.
+ Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you very much Chancellor, I
+yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Ms. Miller-Meeks of Iowa
+you're next. You're now live.
+ Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you so much. I appreciate it Madam
+Chair. Thank you for holding this subcommittee hearing, and for
+providing for the witness testimonies. Thank all of you for
+testifying today. So I'm a little unusual. I'm one of eight
+kids. When I was burned at 15, decided to become a doctor. And
+so I left home at 16.
+ I actually enrolled in San Antonio Junior College as it was
+called at that time, then was able to get a degree in nursing,
+a master's in education and ultimately a medical degree. So I
+fully support what you've said about community colleges and a
+pathway for education, especially for minority, for women, for
+under-represented groups of low-income, but actually for any
+student who wishes to go onto college, especially if they're
+concerned and aren't quite sure what they want to major in, or
+what will be a successful career path for them.
+ Having said that I was able to work, go to school and have
+a combination of loans. And so my question for Dr. Burke is
+that there appears to be a dramatic rise in the number of loans
+borrowed for graduate level programs, and often these graduate
+level programs lead to high-paying jobs.
+ And I'm concerned about the combination of unlimited
+Federal lending, and unlimited loan forgiveness for these
+individuals who may ultimately result in a higher income career
+pathway. So can you briefly explain in you're concerned about
+this, and you know what can Congress do to create a responsible
+lending program, and how can these reforms lead to lowered
+college cost for students?
+ Ms. Burke. Great thank you Representative Miller-Meeks. I
+appreciate that. It is, it's a major concern I think for many
+of us. The proposals that are out there right now to forgive
+student loan debt anywhere from $10,000.00 to $50,000.00 and
+student loan debt, depending on what proposal you look at, are
+incredibly regressive in nature.
+ They would really shift the burden of paying for college
+away from those individuals who do in fact directly benefit
+from their education onto, as I mentioned, the two-thirds of
+Americans who don't have bachelors degrees, and would
+presumably not earn as much down the road on average, as their
+college-going counterparts.
+ And you also bring up a really important point, which is
+the point about professional degrees and borrowing. We know
+that individuals who pursue professional degrees in particular,
+on average, do quite well. Doctors, lawyers, and so the idea
+that we would forgive those student loans among those
+individuals who statistically speaking are likely to earn a
+decent living moving forward, really, as I said earlier, is
+regressive.
+ And so I think to get back to my earlier point, if we want
+to drive down costs, we need to tackle the Plus Loan program.
+The private lending market will meet the needs of students who
+are pursuing professional degrees, knowing full well that their
+ability to repay those loans will be very high in the future.
+ Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you for that. And in Iowa we have
+concurrent enrollment for high school and for community
+colleges as pathways to success. We also have the Iowa Student
+Loan program, and you had mentioned about private lending and
+Federal lending.
+ We're very concerned. They do a great job of mentoring
+students, advising them, looking at if they're a certain
+educational pathway, how that will result in income and ability
+to pay back loans. And I'm concerned about, you know, doing
+away with an institution such as the Iowa Student Loan program
+which does a great job of preparing students and also giving
+financial literacy.
+ So if students want to find good jobs after college, and
+that could mean that it leads to a baccalaureate, but it could
+be a different career pathway. And there is a discrepancy
+between what students feel like they know what employers say
+about their job readiness, and I just was going to ask if there
+are some non-traditional education pathways that students
+should be exploring, Dr. Burke.
+ Ms. Burke. Thank you. There certainly are a lot of really
+innovative non-traditional pathways that are out there, and I
+think interest is growing in these pathways, because we know
+that employers, as I mentioned earlier, are reporting that
+students who attend the traditional four-year route, aren't
+often prepared.
+ There was a survey that came out in 2018 from the National
+Association of Colleges and Employers that found that although
+almost 80 percent of students believe they're proficient in
+oral and written communication, just 42 percent of employers
+agreed.
+ And then that survey was followed-up by a subsequent survey
+from the Association of American Colleges and Universities that
+found that similarly, while 62 percent of students felt they
+were competent in these skills, just 28 percent of employers
+agreed. So this gap in skills was eluded to earlier, does have
+negative economic impacts.
+ It's left more than six million jobs empty across the
+country, so I think all of that calls into question the value
+add for a lot of institutions.
+ Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you Madam Chair. I yield back my
+time.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. And now our good
+friend Mr. Jones of New York. Welcome to the committee,
+welcome.
+ Mr. Jones. Thank you so much for your leadership Madam
+Chair. And thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing
+before us today. On behalf of the American people I want to
+thank Chancellor Oakley for your innovative work to address the
+challenges faced by community college students during the
+pandemic.
+ Mr. Zibel, for your work to hold the bad actors in our
+higher education system accountable, and of course Mr. Thornton
+for sharing your important first-hand experiences as a student
+during these hard times. While the ongoing pandemic has put a
+strain on colleges and universities, we can all agree that the
+core problems in U.S. higher education predate the COVID-19
+pandemic.
+ Wages have been stagnant for literally decades when you
+adjust for inflation, even as the cost of a four-year college
+education has soared. The average debt of someone graduating
+from a four-year college or university today is four times
+higher than it was in the early nineties, and this burden is
+not shared equally.
+ Women, people of color, and members of the LGBTQ community
+hold a disproportionate amount of student debt, and find
+themselves less likely to graduate with a four-year degree. In
+my district, in Westchester and Rockland Counties in New York,
+where the cost of living is sky-high, thousands of young people
+must live at home with their parents in part, due to the
+student debt that they shoulder.
+ This delays, or outright forecloses their home ownership,
+which we know to be the single greatest generator of wealth in
+America. So I look forward to working with my colleagues to
+address these issues, and want to thank them for their work to
+make college accessible, affordable, and equitable for all.
+ Before turning to my questions, I do want to set the record
+straight on the idea that increases in financial aid somehow
+lead to increases in tuition. That is simply not true. First of
+all no study on the so-called Bennett hypothesis has been able
+to find convincing evidence that this hypothesis is real, at
+least at public institutions.
+ However, a rigorous study found that for-profit
+institutions eligible for Federal student aid, charged 78
+percent more than comparable programs at ineligible, for-profit
+institutions. This strongly suggests that we need better
+oversight of the for-profit sector, not that we should stop
+providing students with Federal aid to enroll in college.
+ Mr. Zibel, I'd like to begin with you. As you stated in an
+interview last year, there are many problems for the government
+to address in this country right now, and the Department of
+Education doesn't have to wait for Congress to act when it
+comes to providing student debt relief.
+ I've been a leader on this issue in the Congress. Indeed
+Congress has already given the Department of Education clear
+statutory authority to forgive Federally owned student debt
+under the Higher Education Act. So Mr. Zibel would you agree
+that under existing law, yes or no, the President or his
+education secretary has the ability to forgive federally-owned
+student loan debt with a stroke of a pen.
+ Mr. Zibel. So thank you Congressman for your question, and
+I appreciate your earlier commentary leading up to it. This is
+an important topic, and something that I understand that the
+White House and the department are taking a very, very close
+look at. You know quite frankly it is not something I have ever
+taken the kind of legal dive that I think needs to be taken.
+ And I really want to defer to the experts who have taken
+the dive on that one before, commenting in front of Congress
+today. But I think what's immediately clear is that there are
+buckets of student loan borrowers for whom that immediate 100
+percent loan relief is doable right now. These are the 400,000
+borrowers who government has already determined are eligible
+for total and permanent disability discharges.
+ These are the borrowers that the department has already
+found victimized by predatory for-profit colleges. These are
+borrowers who are attending schools that closed. And government
+needs to be taking those steps right now today, to discharge
+100 percent of those loans.
+ Mr. Jones. Yes. Mr. Zibel I appreciate that, reclaiming my
+time, and actually I agree with you, and I would like to enter
+it back into the record a paper you co-authored in October 2020
+on this very issue of for-profit colleges, personally causing
+financial losses to students and taxpayers because of their
+misconduct. Madam Chair I'd like to enter that into the record.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
+ Mr. Jones. And I would just to put a finer point on this, I
+understand that you don't consider yourself an expert on this
+subject, but Mr. Zibel you would at least agree that the
+Department of Education has already used its statutory
+authority to pause the collection of student debt, and indeed
+the accrual of interest, which is obviously a form of student
+debt cancellation, yes or no?
+ Mr. Zibel. Yes. I mean quite----
+ Mr. Jones. Thank you. Reclaiming my time. Thank you so
+much. And finally, as we close, as concerns about the spread of
+COVID-19 increase, so did reported incidents of bullying,
+racism, and xenophobia toward the Asian, Asian American, and
+Asian Pacific Islander, or AAPI communities on college campuses
+across the country.
+ Consequently, individuals from these communities reportedly
+afraid to engage on basic day to day tasks, like going to the
+grocery store, or walking alone in their neighborhoods.
+Chancellor Oakley, what can colleges and universities do to
+ensure that AAPI students feel safe and valued in their classes
+and on campuses?
+ Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. First
+of all to be very clear, all colleges and universities should
+immediately and clearly repudiate any attacks on the Asian
+American or Pacific Islander community. We need to engage
+directly with our students, our faculty and our staff to
+discuss these issues, to ensure that we remove the stigma that
+has been applied to Asian American communities around the
+COVID-19 pandemic, or anything else.
+ So we should treat this issue like we would any other
+racial reckoning issue and take it on head-on. We have a direct
+role in that, and we have our classrooms and our colleges, and
+our microphone to be able to weigh in on this.
+ Mr. Jones. Thank you sir. Madam Chair I yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Let me be mindful to
+the witnesses. There's a time limit. And when you see stop I
+will give you the opportunity to finish your thought, but not a
+whole minute. Some of these issues are so important we need to
+address them, but we have to be fair. Thank you so much. And
+now Mrs. McClain of Michigan you're now live Mrs. McClain.
+ Mrs. McClain. Thank you so much Madam Chair. I appreciate
+the opportunity to be on this committee, and I appreciate
+everyone on the committee as well as all the witnesses. My
+question is really regarding oversight and directed to Dr.
+Burke.
+ You suggest Congress keep a watch on the tens of billions
+of dollars colleagues are spending in emergency relief. What
+exactly are some categories of expenses you are most interested
+in, and what indicators should Congress pay attention to that
+show it used taxpayers money responsibly?
+ Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Representative
+McClain. So as I eluded to earlier, there are statutory
+allowances for these additional funds, and then there are the I
+think recommendations for what colleges should be using these
+funds for.
+ So for example, the public and non-profit schools can use
+the money in these emergency higher education reform dollars
+for financial aid to students, and then they can use about half
+for institutional revenue, so that can be anything from faculty
+and staff training, it can be payroll costs, it can be
+backfilling lost revenue, it can be backfilling lost revenue
+due to a lack of sporting events, so it really runs the gamut.
+ So those are indeed allowable uses of these funds. At the
+university level though, I think what they really should be
+using these funds for is to support struggling students. And as
+I said earlier, build out their IT infrastructures so that they
+can navigate these challenges in the future.
+ And so I think that's the role of oversight at the
+Department of Ed, is to really look at what they're doing. They
+do have to submit reports, universities do regularly on how
+they're spending these funds. I hope the department makes those
+reports as public as possible.
+ Mrs. McClain. Thank you. I yield back my time. Thank you
+very much.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. We'll now hear from Ms.
+Manning of North Carolina.
+ Ms. Manning. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all
+the witnesses for being with us today. My first question is to
+Chancellor Oakley. I have two terrific community colleges in my
+district. I visited them when I was in district last to see the
+incredible things they're doing, and how they're holding up
+during his pandemic.
+ They're doing all they can to support their students, but
+they have seen enrollment decline. How have you handled the
+tuition, the reduce tuition revenue from declining enrollment
+if your community colleges had to take cost-cutting measures?
+And if so, what kinds of things are they doing?
+ Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Representative
+Manning. And North Carolina has amazing community colleges.
+First of all, the pandemic has had a direct impact on the
+revenue and expenses that community colleges have had to incur.
+ One, as you mentioned, there has been a decline in
+enrollment. This means a decline in student fees, tuition,
+other revenue that colleges collect, as well as the increased
+cost to going remote or online almost overnight, providing the
+training to support the faculty, and the direct support to
+students.
+ So what we've done is work first and foremost with a State,
+the legislature and the Governor, to make sure that they are
+aware of those costs, and make sure they are aware of those
+revenue declines.
+ Fortunately, Governor Newsom and the legislature provided
+direct support for our colleges and universities, and we've
+also been working with Congress. We're very appreciative of the
+aid that you've provided us. I do agree that that aid needs to
+go to support students, and support the classrooms, so that we
+can become more resilient.
+ And I think by and large, community colleges across the
+Nation have done exactly that. They have been on the front
+lines. They did an amazing job of on a dime, transitioning to
+remote learning, and that remote learning has had a cost. And
+so we need to continue to support community colleges like yours
+in North Carolina, because they do the yeoman's work in
+supporting those who have been hit hardest by the pandemic.
+ Ms. Manning. Thank you. And as hope is on the horizon and
+we look toward the post-pandemic world, what steps do you think
+community colleges can take to reverse those enrollment
+declines?
+ Mr. Oakley. Well I think given the resources that have been
+made available, community colleges need to be reaching out
+directly to their communities, directly to their students,
+trying to understand what their needs are, ensuring that
+emergency aid goes directly to them, and working with
+employers, and community members to provide them the jobs that
+they need, the hours that they need in order to make ends meet,
+so that they can continue their education.
+ So I think that is the beauty of community colleges, they
+are in communities, they work with community members, mayors,
+employers, that has to be done on steroids in order for us to
+reach those students.
+ Ms. Manning. Thank you. Let me ask you about another area.
+I am a former immigration attorney, and the plight of
+undocumented students is one that is of great concern to me.
+And I believe we need to find a pathway to citizenship for our
+DACA students, as well as a pathway to success for all of our
+future workers.
+ Is this something that you believe we need to address, and
+do you have any comments on what we can be doing to address
+this?
+ Mr. Oakley. We absolutely need to address this. California
+community colleges have over 70,000 DACA students, the largest
+of any State in the country. These are individuals that serve
+their communities. They work in their communities. They do
+everything possible to support their communities, so we need to
+provide them the support that they need to come out of the
+shadows, get the education that they need, and contribute
+meaningfully to the economy, and to support their families.
+ So absolutely, we would implore Congress to codify the DACA
+program, and to provide a pathway to citizenship.
+ Ms. Manning. Thank you so much sir. I'm going to turn to
+Mr. Zibel. I recently received an e-mail from a constituent who
+was very concerned because her non-profit college is being
+merged with an out of State institution that was formerly a
+for-profit institution, but is becoming non-profit.
+ And in tracking colleges that convert from for-profit to
+non-profit status, the Century Foundation found that three non-
+profit schools with the most fraudulent complaints were those
+that had converted to non-profit status, but have not truly
+shifted their governance or power structures away from owners
+who had a financial interest.
+ What are for-profits colleges, or why rather, are for-
+profit colleges increasingly converting to non-profit status,
+and what role should the Education Department play in ensuring
+that if they say they're non-profit they actually are?
+ Mr. Zibel. So I see that my time is just about up, if it I
+may permitted this briefly, I can try and do that. I think the
+reality is that the department needs to be scrutinizing
+transactions very, very carefully to make sure that what is a
+bona fide non-profit, is actually a non-profit and that a for-
+profit is not acting as a non-profit.
+ And I think GAO put out a report about a month and a half
+ago or so, on this issue, actually said the department was
+doing a better job of reviewing these and scrutinizing these,
+but really this isn't a one stop look at a school, it's got to
+be a long-term constant review to make sure that the people who
+are profiting before aren't still profiting after the
+transaction.
+ Ms. Manning. Thank you so much and I yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, thank you. I know
+it's hard remotely. Next we'll hear from Mr. Comer of Kentucky.
+ Mr. Comer. Thank you Madam Chair, and I'm going to wear
+both my committee hats with these questions, my Education
+Committee as well the Oversight Committee. Over the last few
+years Congress has appropriated record levels of funding to
+universities and many universities are using it well.
+ For instance, universities in my district have really
+focused on trying to provide educational opportunities that are
+focused on the workforce, and what the regional employers want
+and need and offer the best paying jobs.
+ Kalamazoo University is a great example. They've adapted
+the certification process then I have some communities
+colleges--Henderson Community College, Madisonville Community
+Colleges, working on some really innovative workforce
+development type programs that are in need.
+ So the funds that have been invested in those programs
+obviously have been well-spent, however there are valid
+concerns that in many other instances, many of the universities
+didn't serve the students with the best possible outcome and in
+their best interest about the taxpayers and the student.
+ Last year the Trump administration issued a ruling
+clarifying that only Title IV eligible students qualify to
+receive emergency student aid funding provided by the CARES Act
+and COVID relief. The rule is currently held up in the court
+process. My question is for Dr. Burke. Do you think the rule
+was consistent with other practices related to Federal student
+aid? I'll stop there.
+ Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Comer. I do think it is
+consistent. These funds are open just to students who are Title
+IV eligible, that's consistent not only with Title IV broadly,
+but it's also consistent with other prior practices. If you
+look at the 1996 Welfare Reform Act for example, that limited
+public assistance programs to most legal immigrants for five
+years, or until they attained citizenship.
+ So there's precedent there as well, not only in the
+existing Title IV program, but also in the '96 Act.
+ Mr. Comer. Dr. Burke what's the most responsible way
+institutions can direct these emergency student aid dollars?
+ Ms. Burke. Yes, right. So it's a great question. They
+really should target it toward students who are in the most
+need of that spending. And many of these dollars are flowing to
+universities based on the proportion of students who are Pell
+eligible, and so there is that built in system in place already
+which was a good step in the right direction I think, a good
+safeguard to put into place.
+ But making sure that you know at the university level,
+they're not just giving a blanket across the board aid to every
+student in the institution of you know $1,000.00 or whatever it
+might be, but actually assessing those students who are in need
+at the university level.
+ Mr. Comer. Great. Let me shift gears and talk about COVID-
+19 that the health and educational institutions adapt to meet
+the challenges of COVID-19, that the Department of Education
+and Congress provided many of these institutions temporary
+relief from a lot of regulatory burdens.
+ Dr. Burke are there any related modified regulations or
+guidance that Congress should re-evaluate as institutions are
+planning for future semesters?
+ Ms. Burke. Sure thank you. So as I mentioned earlier I
+think there are a few regulations that are in place that do
+deserve a second look. That elastic clause that I mentioned in
+my opening testimony, I know it sounds like a very specific
+reform, but right now that enables accreditors to layer on
+numerous additional requirements on a university. Just a
+hypothetical, if an accreditor wanted to mandate a dress code,
+it's not outside of the scope of that elastic clause.
+ And so removing that clause to keep what accreditors can do
+solely focused on the metrics that are contained within the
+statute of the HEA would be a very good step in the right
+direction.
+ Mr. Comer. OK. That's good to know. Dr. Foxx, and Fred
+Keller, and myself are all on the Oversight Committee. We're
+really focused on the regulatory process and the change of
+administration has brought a lot of regulatory changes and
+uncertainty in a lot of different industries and education
+would be right in there.
+ So we relaxed a lot of regulations during COVID, and in
+many cases that worked out very well. And I would like to make
+a lot of those relaxed regulations permanent. Obviously, we
+always have to look at the regulatory process, and education is
+no different. So I appreciate that. And Madam Chair I
+appreciate the hearing, and look forward to future hearings,
+and appreciate our witnesses for being here today. I yield
+back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you. And now
+we'll hear from Mr. Bowman of New York, who is the new Vice
+Chair of the full Education and Labor Committee, welcome. Proud
+of you.
+ Mr. Bowman. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all the
+witnesses for being here today. My question is for Mr.
+Thornton. I'm going to start with Mr. Thornton. During your
+testimony you mentioned that at one point you didn't feel that
+college was for you, or you didn't feel that you were college
+material. I know I'm paraphrasing here.
+ Can you speak to why that was? Like why did you have that
+feeling at that time?
+ Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Bowman.
+And the reason why I felt that way, so this was my freshman
+year. And coming into school, honestly, things began to get a
+little rough for me personally, primarily with school, being
+able to maintain the focus on being able to uphold to the
+standard of being able to achieve the school curriculum in
+terms of you know the certain classes, excuse me, that I had to
+take.
+ So with that constant pressure, me putting pressure on
+myself and even with outside pressure that was not necessarily
+intentional with three of my sisters are going to college, all
+of them obtaining their master's degrees.
+ I personally had some pressure that I felt in myself with
+having to reach those goals and attain that degree. And even
+with being able to not fail, and feeling like I didn't want to
+put my family's money at risk of just being wasted because of
+where I was at.
+ So that's kind of the reason as to why. Those are some of
+the thoughts I was having internally as far as being able to
+stay in school.
+ Mr. Bowman. Yes I know what you mean. I have three sisters
+as well, and raised by a single mom. So I know the pressure
+that the women in our lives put on us.
+ Mr. Thornton. Yes.
+ Mr. Bowman. To reach their standard. So how did you
+overcome it? You know what did the university provide to you in
+terms of advisers, in terms of academic support, what have you,
+how did you overcome that pressure and that feeling that you
+didn't belong? And how were you able to set yourself right?
+ Mr. Thornton. Yes of course. So when it came down to
+referring whether I did, it took me having to speak up, rather
+than waiting for something or for someone to come to me and ask
+me how I was doing. So it took me reaching out to, as I
+mentioned, you know, a TRIO program instructor, Ms. Tiffany
+Tyler, who has played a huge role in my life, reaching out to
+her, speaking to her about some of these things.
+ Her guiding me and really encouraging me to continue to
+push forward, and even my counterparts, my peers within the
+university. I've built long-lasting relationship through the
+TRIO program as I've mentioned 5000 Role Models as well.
+ And even you know I'm part of a club here on campus as
+well. Having those people in my life, and just speaking and
+sharing my heart, sharing my life with them. There are times
+where I was able to do homework with them, study with them, and
+it really just pushed me to stay in school to think about the
+future, the ways in which I can have an impact in the world
+with a degree.
+ So you know having people in my life was a huge component
+of me deciding that this is something that I can do, and
+something that I will do, and that's kind of you know pushed me
+to where I am today getting ready to graduate. So that's been a
+huge motivator for me.
+ Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much for sharing that. You're an
+inspiration to me personally, and to all of us, so please keep
+going brother. I appreciate you. Chancellor Oakley, since the
+onset of COVID-19 there has been an increased demand from
+mental health services as students deal with trauma, and
+economic and health crises, in addition to managing their
+school work.
+ Chancellor, how have your institutions managed this
+increased need?
+ Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. The
+mental health toll that the pandemic and the economic fallout
+has taken on our students has been significant. Many of them
+are in communities where we have had not only the economic
+impact of COVID-19, the health impacts because many of those
+communities lacked access to quality healthcare, but also the
+racial reckoning that has gripped this country, happens in the
+communities that we serve.
+ So all those things have come together. We have been
+working with the Newsom administration and our legislature to
+gain access to resources that help fund mental health services.
+Our legislature has provided some of those resources. We are
+working with counties and cities to share resources, to make
+sure that our students have access to those mental health
+resources, but they are only a drop in the bucket.
+ And this is an area where Congress also has been helpful
+because some of those relief funds have been used to provide
+that kind of assistance, that kind of support to our students
+who need it critically right now for them to continue their
+education.
+ Mr. Bowman. Thank you for that. Mr. Zibel, though
+enrollment is trending down at community colleges, the reverse
+is true for for-profit colleges. While for-profit colleges saw
+substantial and consistent enrollment drops in the years
+leading up to the pandemic, the sections enrollment spiked up
+last fall.
+ This appears to be a pattern as for-profit colleges have
+saw a similar enrollment spike after the Great Recession. Do
+you have any concerns with these trends, and what lessons can
+we learn from the years following the Great Recession?
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Mr. Vice Chair your time is up.
+ Mr. Bowman. Oh sorry, thank you.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Someone else--he'll probably
+answer it in another question from another Member. Thank you so
+much. We'll now go to Ms. Spartz of Indiana.
+ Ms. Spartz. Thank you Madam Chair. I just have a question
+to all the panel. You know we all agree we have a lot of
+problems and challenges in higher ed. I was a college faculty
+myself, and I also taught in public accounting college. It was
+a national team, a trainer for several other accounting firms.
+We had a lot of talk, a lot of discussions, a lot of different
+performances, so I understand it.
+ We need to have better return on investment, following
+investments in human capital. Colleges need to have skin in the
+game, and we need to have better outcomes, not worthless
+diplomas, none of that, inflated grades and all these things
+and now the kids are not ready to life-long learning.
+ So my question is we had lots of talk, lots of discussion,
+proposal but nothing ever gets done. So my question is, and
+I'll start with Dr. Burke, is there any prospects where
+actually something gets done, or we'll be discussing for next
+10 years how we're going to reform higher ed and nothing is
+going to happen.
+ So what are your thoughts on the prospect of anything
+happening in the near future.
+ Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
+Spartz. So I think the prospect for reforms like moving on
+either short-term Pell, or enabling students to use their Title
+IV funds for shorter term courses. I think the prospects are
+pretty good for that in terms of bipartisan support overall.
+ There are, of course, some inherent concerns with some of
+these proposals that you don't increase spending overall on
+these programs when you enable those dollars to flow to shorter
+term courses, but I think that there are ways to structure
+those reforms to make sure that the cap remains tight, but
+still enable students to have more flexibility and to make
+those dollars more nimble.
+ Ms. Spartz. But I'm talking about better outcomes in all
+postsecondary education, so having real reform when we
+understand that you know, we should bring some value right? If
+we're going to invest in human capital, and use taxpayers money
+particularly to do that, we need to have a return on
+investment.
+ And colleges need to have skin in the game, and they
+shouldn't be piling up all this debt on these kids, a lot of
+them, with no jobs right? Because I only care if you have a
+job, and you have some meaningful employment that it brings
+some value.
+ So is there any prospect of having that ever accomplished?
+ Ms. Burke. So I do think that there is some agreement that
+in general the current metrics for example, the cohort default
+rate, are just really not cutting it in terms of providing the
+data that we need and the, you know, oversight that we need for
+some of these institutions.
+ And so there are conversations that are happening about
+changing that metric to something maybe closer to a
+programmatic default rate that could work better. There is
+still going to be problems inherent in that approach as well,
+and so to my mind it all comes back to the fact that we are
+even having this conversation because Federal taxpayers are
+implicated, and financing so much of the higher education
+system today.
+ So winding down the debt in the student loan program, I
+think is a necessary precondition for reigning in costs and
+providing some needed accountability.
+ Ms. Spartz. Yes our colleges do have to have skin in the
+game too.
+ Ms. Burke. Yes.
+ Ms. Spartz. So I'm sure. Dr. And Mr. Zibel and Mr. Oakley,
+and maybe Mr. Thornton quickly. Do you think there is any
+prospect of meaningful reform in the near future? Yes, no,
+because I'm not sure how much time I have left.
+ Mr. Zibel. I actually think there is Congresswoman, and
+especially you know if you talk about skin in the game, and
+making sure that there's value.
+ I think one of the most important things that
+administration can do is bring back the Gainful Employment
+Rule, which was designed to solve exactly the kind of problems
+that you were just referring to where students are graduating
+from programs without any prospect of employment in
+relationship to the amount of debt that they are taking.
+ Secretary DeVos repealed that rule. And you know I'm
+hopeful that the Department of Education can bring it back, and
+actually give it time to work going forward.
+ Ms. Spartz. Mr. Oakley?
+ Mr. Oakley. Short answer is yes. I see a lot of reform
+happening. The fact that you have a person from a community
+college testifying today means that things are changing, that
+we are recognizing the value that institutions like community
+colleges provide to the country. So I'm very hopeful and I see
+a lot of change in California.
+ Ms. Spartz. OK. Well hopefully we'll stay optimistic and
+get some hope. Mr. Thornton what do you think? You're probably
+new to all this.
+ Mr. Thornton. Yes I definitely am new to all this. But I
+would say that I do have hope and faith that there will be a
+change moving forward in the future. I'm excited to see how
+things continue to grow and to progress as Mr. Oakley attested
+to. You know, him coming from a community college background I
+think is amazing just to see him here now, and just even having
+that same dream and hope for other people that were in his
+position.
+ So I definitely feel good moving forward to see some
+changes in America.
+ Ms. Spartz. OK thank you. I will stay hopeful, and I'll
+yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. And a
+veteran Member of the committee now, I yield to Mr. Pocan. How
+are you, Wisconsin.
+ Mr. Pocan. Very good thank you Madam Chair, and I
+appreciate. Thanks to the witnesses, and my apologies to
+everyone for coming back and forth. Every vote we have is 45
+minutes. Unfortunately, we have about 100 colleagues who have
+not been vaccinated so we can't shorten the time period, and
+it's chaotic because of it. So my apologies up front.
+ A very quick yes/no question Dr. Burke. I'm hoping, I'm not
+sure if I heard something right. Were you just talking about
+winding down the student loan programs? Is that a yes or no in
+the near future?
+ Ms. Burke. Yes.
+ Mr. Pocan. OK yes. Thank you. I'll move on. So Mr.
+Thornton. I was someone who when I went to school I grew up in
+a lower middle class family, got lots of student loans, Pell
+Grants, things that Ms. Burke apparently doesn't like.
+ And that's why I was able to go to college, and get a
+degree and appreciate, you know, what you're talking about
+right now and the support that you got. I think also part of
+the testimony was that all this money went to the
+administrative ether at universities, but I assume you like me,
+don't consider our lives administrative ether.
+ You talked a little bit in your opening remarks about how
+some of the support from the programs that we've done with
+COVID helped you very directly to be able to continue to be
+able to go to school. Can you talk a little more, just a little
+more about that, or about any friend's stories also that have
+been helped because of the programs that Congress did around
+COVID?
+ Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Pocan.
+And I could speak for myself personally, kind of like what I
+mentioned as far as the last semester, the fall semester that
+just passed. Me initially having a job, me being able to take
+care of myself financially, whether it be with school expenses,
+or expenses outside of school whether it was rent or bills.
+ Me losing my job put me in a position to where I just
+really had to take a lot from my personal savings, so with the
+funding that was provided I was able to provide for myself in
+different ways, primarily with school and you know school
+materials.
+ And in addition to that things outside of school. So the
+funding that was provided definitely played a huge role in my
+life personally, and you know I could definitely speak about
+that for sure.
+ Mr. Pocan. Thank you. What's your major by the way? I don't
+know if I caught that because we're always back and forth. I
+didn't catch that.
+ Mr. Thornton. Oh yes of course. My major is recreation and
+sports management.
+ Mr. Pocan. Awesome. Well I wish you great fortune with
+that, and thanks so much for being here and sharing your
+stories. A question for Chancellor Oakley. You know we just had
+a staff assistant position open in my office. We got 330
+applications for it, and we noticed a lot of them graduated in
+May 2020 and have not had a job since then, obviously because
+of COVID.
+ Is there anything that universities are doing, or should be
+doing to kind of help that student, that this year has been an
+incredibly tough year? Many of them probably are living back
+home because we noticed the addresses are from around the
+country. But what can we do to help those students, because you
+know, I'm glad that they were able to get the education, but I
+know the next connecting step is to a good job.
+ Mr. Oakley. So very quickly. I mean working with employers,
+working with industries to provide for some type of paid
+internship I think is critical for all college graduates to
+have the opportunity to get into the workforce as soon as
+things start to open up.
+ It's critically important that college students have access
+to have the skills that they need, but also in terms of what
+they need to do the work, but how to exist in a place of
+employment. So I think we need to double our efforts to help
+students get some sort of workforce opportunity, internship or
+other paid workforce training.
+ Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you. And then a final followup if I
+can because I have to go to vote on this series now. It has to
+do with Dr. Burke's question that we need to wind down our
+financial aid programs, that there's just too much of a largess
+out there.
+ Mr. Oakley. Well I think we agree on the umbrella which is
+there is too much debt. I do think that we need to continue to
+improve the amount of resources that we're providing to the
+lowest income Americans and help them pay for the cost of
+attending college which continues to increase.
+ Mr. Pocan. And that includes more Pell I would assume.
+ Mr. Oakley. Absolutely.
+ Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you very much. I yield back Madam
+Chair.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. According to my
+records Ms. Harshbarger of Tennessee you can go on the record.
+Mr. Fulcher of Idaho? Ms. Stefanik of New York? Mr. Banks of
+Indiana? Ms. Omar of Minnesota.
+ Ms. Omar. Thank you very much chairwoman, and thanks to all
+our witnesses for joining us. To Mr. Pocan's point it's been a
+really busy day, so I do apologize if some of the questions I
+ask have already been asked of you. Even before the COVID-19
+pandemic hit, there were many students who were struggling to
+cover the cost of basic needs like housing, food and childcare.
+ The COVID-19 pandemic has added to many of the hurdles
+faced by minority and low-income students working to complete
+their college educations. And these challenges are compounded
+for student parents.
+ A recent report including the GAO study, has highlighted
+the challenges that a student parents face in terms of college
+persistence and completion. Madam Chair I request unanimous
+consent to enter this into the record.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
+ Ms. Omar. Chancellor Oakley, how have child center closures
+affected the ability of student parents to remain in school?
+ Mr. Oakley. This has had a devastating effect on our
+students, and thank you for that question Congresswoman. This
+has had a devastating effect. So many of our students in the
+California community colleges, and this is true of community
+colleges across the Nation, are working parents.
+ And so lack of access to childcare, and the fact that so
+many of them have had their children in their household having
+to work on educating them remotely, sharing Wi-Fi with them,
+all of these have created challenges that have made it very
+difficult for working parents to continue their education.
+ Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. I was a working parent when I
+completed my college education, and so I'm wondering if there
+is any support that colleges are providing currently to this
+vulnerable student group, and if you have any recommendations
+for Congress to provide support.
+ Mr. Oakley. Well I think right now the most important thing
+to do is to provide these working parents, these students,
+direct emergency support. They need economic support right now,
+so that when they're making choices about whether to feed their
+family, or to continue to enroll in college, we don't force
+them into those choices.
+ So I think we need them to participate in the economy. We
+need them to complete their education, so I think investing
+directly in supporting these working students is critical to
+our future, and to an equitable recovery.
+ Ms. Omar. And how do you see the creation of an environment
+that does set these students up for success post-COVID?
+ Mr. Oakley. So I think it's critical that we work with
+employers, that we work with labor organizations that support
+these working parents to focus on insuring that we provide what
+they need to get into jobs that pay a livable wage so they can
+support their families.
+ Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. Madam Chair I will yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I see Mr. Fulcher
+from Idaho's camera on. I'm not sure if he is available? We'll
+go now to Ms. Sherrill of New Jersey? Mr. Espaillat of New
+York? Mr. Grijalva of Arizona? And a true, true veteran of the
+Education Committee Mr. Courtney of Connecticut, he's here.
+ Mr. Courtney. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson, and thank you to
+all the witnesses. Keith, your testimony has been really
+stellar, and you know, congratulations to you and the Chairman
+for the great work that you and her work in terms of you know,
+creating these kinds of pathways for young people.
+ Mr. Zibel I have actually been watching a little bit out of
+the corner of my eye during the hearing. Chairman Powell from
+the Federal Reserve is sort of giving his sort of update
+regarding the economy, and announced that again, the sort of
+low interest rate, zero percent policy--monetary policy, of the
+Federal Reserve is actually going to continue through 2023.
+ I mean a very I think, you know forceful policy position to
+keep borrowing costs down. And as we know, you know, for the
+last year that's been the policy, and people in the private
+sector have benefited greatly from it. You know residential
+property owners, credit card debt, car loan debt, but you know
+the one form of debt that is still stuck with the higher
+interest rates is student loan debt.
+ And you know President Biden's pause, which is a good thing
+in terms of helping people's cash-flow, who are student loan
+borrowers, that expires at the end of September 2021. And so,
+you know, potentially you know those higher interest rates are
+going to snap back into place.
+ Again, even if there is student loan forgiveness of
+$10,000.00 or $50,000.00, there's still going to be a lot of
+debt left over there. And so you know I was wondering if you
+could sort of talk about it from a consumer point of view. I
+mean the only decisionmaker that can change that is Congress.
+ That's pretty well understood as the President really is
+not a unilateral authority under the Higher Education
+Authorization to cut rates by himself, and we've done that a
+number of times over you know the time that Frederica and I
+have been in Congress.
+ You know it just seems like it screams out for action by
+Congress not to let these interest rates snap back, and first
+to do something about taking advantage of the low interest rate
+environment. And I was wondering if you could comment on that.
+ Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Congressman. It's an excellent
+question and I should caveat this was you know I'm not an
+economist. I'm a lawyer. But you know, just as a matter of
+principle I think that everything you are saying makes a lot of
+sense. There is no reason why student loan borrowers should be
+saddled with higher interest rates than you know, other
+financial products.
+ I think Congress would be well to look at reforms to the
+Bankruptcy Code. Student loans are not dischargeable in
+bankruptcy for the most part, and that is something that I
+think both the administration and Congress could be taking a
+look at to really try and bring relief to borrowers who are
+struggling so immensely right now.
+ Mr. Courtney. Well thank you. Again we've tried actually in
+the last few Congresses, myself, Frederica and others have you
+know cosponsored bills to bring down the interest rates. And
+again, given Chairman Powell's announcement today, I mean it
+really is more than high time for us to move out and create
+some parody in terms of lending costs for people with student
+loan debt.
+ And you know Mr. Oakley, I don't know if you have any sort
+of comment on that. I realize maybe you know the interest rate
+issue for current students is not as urgent, but certainly you
+know, later in life it could really pose a real hindrance on
+their success.
+ Mr. Oakley. Well absolutely. I mean all the things that
+were just mentioned, and I certainly support Mr. Zibel's
+characterization of the challenge. We need Congress to act to
+support students who do have to take out these loans by
+reducing the interest rate, by allowing them to go through
+bankruptcy court.
+ So these are issues that saddle our students for decades.
+And in many ways keep them from participating meaningful in the
+American economy, and from creating wealth.
+ Mr. Courtney. Great. Well thank you. You know just to share
+with the committee and the witnesses, I had a constituent who
+emailed the other day about a student loan bill that he
+received, which again was paying 7.8 percent interest. Again,
+totally trapped.
+ And there was a warning quote in there that only the U.S.
+Congress can lower that rate. Because you know I'm sure that
+the loan servicer is getting bombarded with questions about why
+do I still have to pay 7.8 percent interest when you know,
+everything else is you know close to zero.
+ And I think you know they're basically saying call your
+Congressman. So hopefully, you know, more people will talk
+about that, because it really is something that we as a
+committee should take a look at. And with that I yield back
+Madam Chairwoman.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you very much. Mr. Fulcher I see
+from Idaho, I see you back and forth. You are on camera. You're
+next. Mr. Fulcher are you going to join us? If not we'll go to
+Ms. Bonamici.
+ Ms. Bonamici. Thank you Madam Chair. And thank you to all
+the witnesses. In particular, I want to thank Mr. Thornton.
+Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It's really
+helpful for us to learn from. I also want to not let it go
+unsaid that there are with regard to Dr. Burke's comments about
+limiting borrowing based on someone's course of study, multiple
+issues and problems with that, particularly from the equity
+perspective.
+ And very subjective who makes that decision, and you know,
+just take a look someday at what philosophy majors make.
+They're very successful because they know how to think
+critically, and employers are looking for skills like empathy
+and teamwork, and problem solving. Those are all things that
+come from studying broad fields, including the humanities.
+ So I want to turn to Chancellor Oakley. Nice to see you
+again. We know there are serious inequities in higher
+education, and that's true in Oregon and across the country
+even before the COVID-19 pandemic, and students were already
+struggling to cover not just the cost of tuition, but we know
+other expenses, housing, transportation, childcare, food.
+ Now there are unexpected costs because of the pandemic
+adding to it. And particularly for community college students
+like I was, these costs are significantly higher than the costs
+of tuition. So Chancellor Oakley, recent reports including a
+GAO study have highlighted food and housing insecurity, and I
+have spoken with college students, particularly community
+college students in Oregon about this.
+ I'd like to enter the GAO report into the record Madam
+Chair.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
+ Ms. Bonamici. Thank you. So Chancellor, how are the
+California community colleges providing for example, case
+management and services to low-income students, and how are you
+connecting them with resources like those that are available
+through SNAP, WIC and TANF? And how are you making sure the
+students access those resources while they're not physically on
+campus?
+ Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
+Bonamici. You are absolutely right. There was a huge crisis in
+our system before the pandemic. We saw record amounts of food
+insecurity. Record amounts of housing insecurity and the
+pandemic has significantly exacerbated the problem.
+ So we have been working first and foremost, we are a
+community college, we are working with cities, with non-profit
+institutions, in localities where we exist in providing support
+for our students.
+ We've provided support for technology, for food through
+food pantries, and things of that nature. We've also worked
+with our legislature and Governor Newsom to provide emergency
+aid. Just a few weeks ago the legislature passed an emergency
+action package that provides emergency support directly to
+students, which will support their needs for food and housing
+insecurity, as well as mental health services and other things
+that are impacting them right now.
+ We've also continued to advocate to you all, to Congress,
+and to this new administration of the need to provide this
+direct emergency support. I understand----
+ Ms. Bonamici. Chancellor, I don't want to interrupt but I--
+--
+ Mr. Oakley. That's quite all right.
+ Ms. Bonamici. ----I have a consumer protection background,
+so I absolutely must get a question in for Mr. Zibel. Thank you
+so much for being here. The Obama administration as you know,
+established the Borrower Defense Rule to streamline the process
+for students to assert their right to loan forgiveness when
+they're defrauded by the institution.
+ Unfortunately, the Trump administration failed to implement
+the rule and give students the relief they deserve. So what can
+the Biden administration do immediately to address the problems
+with Borrower Defense that were created by the past
+administration?
+ Mr. Zibel. Sure. Thank you for the question. There is a lot
+the department can do, and I think most immediately it's taking
+the issue seriously, providing relief, 100 percent relief to
+the borrowers who it has already determined to have been
+defrauded by a predatory college.
+ There is simply no excuse at this point in time for the
+department dragging its heels on that. I want to, you know the
+consequences for these borrowers, it's devastating for them for
+an economic impact, housing impact, mental health impacts.
+ But the other point that I want to emphasize on this is
+that these are borrowers who really feel like not only did
+their school fail them, but their government failed them. Their
+government failed them by putting a seal of approval on these
+schools, leading them down a path, and then not giving
+forgiveness, even though they've already made sufficient
+findings to do so.
+ Ms. Bonamici. In my remaining few seconds, just to followup
+on that. Some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
+were talking about complaining about what they call
+administrative bloat. But actually some of the worst bloat I'm
+aware of is when colleges use Federal funds to advertise for
+perspective students.
+ Recent data indicates that colleges spend 730 million
+dollars on advertising and degree granting for-profit
+institutions, and that's you know 40 percent of all higher
+education advertising spending for just 6 percent of the
+students, so that is something that I would say is
+administrative bloat we should be looking at is what the for-
+profits institutions are doing to try to recruit on often-times
+students.
+ So I see my time is over, and I yield back. Thank you Madam
+Chair.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. You have a lot of seniority
+but your time is up. And now Mr. Scott, esteemed Chairman of
+the entire committee on Education and Labor. Do you want to
+close us out?
+ Mr. Scott. I'll try. Thank you very much. Let me first ask
+Ms. Burke you mentioned we talked about short-term Pell's, but
+I think there's a consensus that this is a good idea. The only
+caveat we have is people open up little storefronts and
+stealing all the money, dealing out worthless credentials.
+ We want to limit those privately to community colleges, and
+referrals from job training, workforce investment, Opportunity
+Act boards. Do you think that would be sufficient to keep these
+in the hands of those that are actually using them well?
+ Ms. Burke. I think coupled with some State accreditation
+reform efforts as in enabling states to make some determination
+about which industries within their state could provide those
+short-term courses. I think that would be a good step in the
+right direction to actually push it down to the State level,
+that oversight role, in terms of quality assurance of these
+programs.
+ Mr. Scott. Thank you. And let me ask Dr. Oakley. We have a
+lot of suggestions on how to spend a lot of money on colleges,
+and could you give us an idea of your priorities talking about
+either free college, or free community college, double the Pell
+Grant, loan discharge programs like public service loan
+forgiveness, a borrower defense, or income contingent, or
+discharging loans $10,000.00 or $50,000.00, or eliminate
+interest on loans.
+ Could you tell us what we ought to be looking at first?
+ Mr. Oakley. Thank you Mr. Chair. First of all I mean all of
+those issues are important issues to our students, but for us I
+mean first and foremost allowing students to pay for the total
+cost of attending college is critical, so that they can attend
+full-time, so that they can complete their education and get
+into the workforce.
+ So things like doubling Pell is critically important. Free
+community college is certainly important, so that the funds
+that you make available can be spent on the total cost of
+attending college. And then finally I'd say supporting
+colleges, community colleges in particular to reach out to
+displaced workers, and helping get the skills that they need to
+get back into the workforce.
+ Mr. Scott. We've heard a couple of comments about the
+interest rates. What about significantly reducing, or even
+eliminating interest. Why is the Federal Government charging
+people interest? We ought to be subsidizing loans, not using it
+as a profit center.
+ Mr. Oakley. Well I would certainly agree that a low or no
+interest loans to our students who are struggling and who need
+that support to get into the economy is a very important step
+that Congress could take.
+ Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Zibel during the Obama
+administration the Department of Education worked with the
+State law enforcement agencies, especially attorneys general to
+investigate and hold for-profit colleges accountable. Can you
+talk about what happened during the last 4 years, and whether
+or not executives at for-profit colleges should be held
+personally liable for misconduct, or financial losses to
+students and taxpayers?
+ Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. Look, the Department of
+Education has to be working alongside State and other Federal
+partners. This should not be an adversarial relationship, as I
+think it has been over the past 4 years. In terms of
+institutional enforcement I see what the Department of
+Education did in the Corinthian colleges matter.
+ It's a real example of when the department worked alongside
+the office of then Attorney General Kamala Harris to bring an
+enforcement action, and take an action against one of the most
+predatory actors.
+ When schools are closing, the department has to be working
+with states to make sure that student needs are met in terms of
+transfers, and transcript availability and basic needs around
+housing.
+ So I think that is a real important step that the
+department has to be taking going forward. In terms of personal
+liability, I think I mentioned a little bit earlier,
+absolutely. This is not a proposal that we have come up with.
+This is not a proposal that must have been developed in the
+past year or two, this is something that Congress put into the
+Higher Education Act about 30 years ago.
+ And you know President George H.W. Bush signed it into law.
+It was passed by a bipartisan Congress. And I think that the
+concept is really simple. That when there are institutions that
+cause losses to students and taxpayers, they should be held
+accountable, and the individuals that directed that conduct
+should be held accountable.
+ The Securities and Exchange Commission for example does it
+even for for-profit college executives about protecting
+investors. But for some reason the Department of Education has
+not done that to protect students.
+ So this is about deterring misconduct. If you know that you
+personally may have to write a check at the end of the day, you
+are probably going to be a lot better of a steward of a
+taxpayer and student funds.
+ Mr. Scott. Thank you. And thank you Madam Chair. And I want
+to thank Keith for being with us today. He's certainly an
+example of why we're here. And certainly, a shining example of
+why the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence are so important. So
+thank you Keith for being with us today.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much Mr. Chair.
+I remind my colleagues that pursuant to committee practice,
+materials for submission of the hearing record must be
+submitted to the Committee Clerk within 14 days following the
+last day of the hearing.
+ So by close of business on March 31, 2021 preferably in
+Microsoft Word format. The materials submitted must address the
+subject matter of the hearing. Only a Member of the
+subcommittee, or an invited witness may submit materials for
+inclusion in the hearing record.
+ Documents are limited to 50 pages each. Documents longer
+than 50 pages will be incorporated into the record by way of an
+internet link that you must provide to the Committee Clerk
+within the required timeframe.
+ But please recognize that in the future that link may no
+longer work. Pursuant to House rules and regulations, items for
+the record must be submitted to the Clerk electronically by
+email submissions to [email protected].
+ Members are encouraged to submit materials to the inbox
+before the hearing, or during the hearing at the time the
+Member makes the request. Again, I want to thank the witnesses
+for their participation today. Keith you have made FIU, Miami-
+Dade County Public Schools so proud.
+ We love you. 5,000 Role Models love you. We are 5,000. I
+want to thank you, all of the witnesses. You were absolutely
+stupendous. You did a great job at our committee today. Members
+of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for each
+of you and we ask the witnesses to please respond to those
+questions in writing.
+ The hearing record will be held open for 14 days in order
+to receive those responses. I remind my colleagues that
+pursuant to committee practice witness questions for the
+hearing record, must be submitted to the Majority Committee
+Staff or Committee Clerk within 7 days. The questions submitted
+must address the subject matter of the hearing.
+ We're now into closing statements. I recognize the
+Distinguished Ranking Member for a closing statement, Dr.
+Murphy who is a medical doctor.
+ Mr. Murphy. Thank you Ms. Representative Wilson. I want to
+thank you especially, but also thank the committee Members and
+the panelists. I think this was an excellent, excellent
+meeting, and a lot of good issues discussed.
+ And I think there was a lot of lessons learned today. Both
+Democrats and Republicans, I think we agree. We agree very
+plainly that our postsecondary education system is in need of
+reform. I mean I think that I can say that without any doubt.
+Everybody knows that things have got a little bit out of hand.
+ Where the reform may be, may be in question, and difference
+of opinion about and amongst the panelists and the committee,
+but I think reform my all means is a consensus statement.
+ College costs are obviously way too high, and continue to
+rise. We simply cannot continue the rise of college costs as
+they are today. We are bankrupting our students. We are doing a
+disservice to our taxpayers. We simply cannot allow that.
+Graduation rates are low, honestly embarrassingly low.
+ I look at some institutions 6 year graduation rates are in
+the teens, and that's not acceptable. We're doing a disservice
+to those students, and again to the taxpayers. Employers are
+finding recent graduates, college graduates, ill-prepared for
+college success. And that burden rests solely on our educators.
+ If these kids are paying so much and mortgaging their
+future, our educators have the burden of making sure that
+they're prepared and that their money was well-spent. You don't
+continue the status quo. You don't continue to pour money into
+programs that have been proven failures. They're not failing
+because of lack of money. They're failing because they were bad
+and poorly designed programs.
+ Congress acted quickly last year in a bipartisan fashion to
+help the sector deal with the pandemic. I was very, very proud
+to be a Member of Congress at that time because we saw the
+American people, and we saw institutions in America as needing
+our help and we got together in a bipartisan manner.
+ Most recently, not so bipartisan, and that's in my opinion,
+a real shame that that occurred. But now Congress has to turn
+to long-term issues. The Higher Education Act is in dire need
+of reform to better serve our students. The disaster, and I
+spoke about this earlier, of the rise of administrative bloat
+must be reversed.
+ We cannot continue pouring money into institutions that do
+not use it toward education and preparing our students for
+success and lifelong learning. Some policy solutions have been
+presented at the hearing, eliminate the Grad Plus Program,
+allow institutions to limit borrowing on a programmatic basis,
+an entrance into the marketplace by enabling short-term Pell
+Grants and reforming the accreditation system, and also--and a
+recent topic, I think reforming the interest rates on these
+loans. By all means, I think that needs to be done, especially
+with what we're talking about with zero rates.
+ I don't think loan forgiveness. All you're doing is passing
+that on to individuals who actually paid for their education,
+who actually worked for their education, I don't think that is
+appropriate.
+ Not all of the ideas are bipartisan, by all means. But I
+want to encourage the subcommittee to work to find workable
+solutions under Madam Wilson's leadership, and I have pledged
+to work together in a bipartisan manner for us to actually do
+what's great for our students and what's good for their
+success. Thank you Madam Chairman I will yield back.
+ Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you Doctor. I now
+recognize myself for the purpose of making my closing
+statement. I want to again thank our expert witnesses for
+joining our subcommittee's first hearing of this Congress, and
+for your testimonies.
+ Our discussion today made clear that the relief funding we
+provided for higher education over the last year has been
+critical to helping both institutions and students weather the
+Coronavirus pandemic. But we were also reminded that both
+Congress and the Biden administration have much work to do to
+ensure underserved students are not left behind in our recovery
+from this pandemic.
+ Securing relief funding alone is a disservice to the
+students. We must take bold steps to strengthen student
+protections and expand access to student aid, so that we build
+back a better higher education system for everyone.
+ This committee has a great responsibility to not only help
+our higher education system survive this pandemic, but also
+ensure that all students across this Nation have access, if
+they want it, to a college degree that leads to a rewarding
+career. I look forward to working with my colleagues to achieve
+this ultimate goal.
+ If there is no further business before this committee
+without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. And thank
+you so much for joining us.
+[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
+
+ [Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
+
+ [all]
+