[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE
OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
HIGHER EDUCATION AND
WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, MARCH 17, 2021
__________
Serial No. 117-2
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via: edlabor.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
43-870 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman
RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina,
JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut Ranking Member
GREGORIO KILILI CAMACHO SABLAN, JOE WILSON, South Carolina
Northern Mariana Islands GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania
FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida TIM WALBERG, Michigan
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
MARK TAKANO, California ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia
MARK De SAULNIER, California JIM BANKS, Indiana
DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey JAMES COMER, Kentucky
PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
JOSEPH D. MORELLE, New York FRED KELLER, Pennsylvania
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
LUCY Mc BATH, Georgia MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut BURGESS OWENS, Utah
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan BOB GOOD, Virginia
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico MARY E. MILLER, Illinois
MONDAIRE JONES, New York VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana MADISON CAWTHORN, North Carolina
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York, Vice-Chair MICHELLE STEEL, California
MARK POCAN, Wisconsin Vacancy
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas Vacancy
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey
JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff Director
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida, Chairwoman
MARK TAKANO, California GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington Ranking Member
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
MONDAIRE JONES, New York JIM BANKS, Indiana
KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina JAMES COMER, Kentucky
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
MARK POCAN, Wisconsin MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas BOB GOOD, Virginia
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
ARIANO ESPAILLAT, New York DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut Vacancy
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina (ex
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia officio)
(ex officio)
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on March 17, 2021................................... 1
Statement of Members:
Wilson, Hon. Frederica S., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
Education and Workforce Investment......................... 1
Prepared statement of.................................... 5
Murphy, Hon. Gregory F., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Education and Workforce Investment......................... 6
Prepared statement of.................................... 8
Statement of Witnesses:
Burke, Lindsey M., Ph.D., Director, Center for Education
Policy, and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education, The
Heritage Foundation, Washington, DC........................ 19
Prepared statement of.................................... 22
Oakley, Eloy Ortiz, Chancellor, California Community
Colleges,
Sacramento, CA............................................. 14
Prepared statement of.................................... 17
Thornton, Keith, Student, Florida International University,
Miami, FL.................................................. 11
Prepared statement of.................................... 13
Zibel, Daniel A., Vice President and Chief Counsel, National
Student Legal Defense Network, Washington, DC.............. 29
Prepared statement of.................................... 31
Additional Submissions:
Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Oregon:
Report dated May 19, 2020 from the Brookings Institution,
``Commercials for College? Advertising in Higher
Education''............................................ 86
Jones, Hon. Mondaire, a Representative in Congress from the
State of New York:
Report dated October, 2020 from National Student Legal
Defense, ``Protection and the Unseen: Holding
Executives Personally Liable under the Higher Eduction
Act''.................................................. 109
Leger Fernandez, Hon. Teresa, a Representative in Congress
from the State of New Mexico:
Article dated March 16, 2021 from the Santa Fe Reporter:
New Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity''..... 106
Link: GAO Report 19-95 dated December 21, 2018, ``FOOD
INSECURITY: Better Information Could Help Eligible
College
Students Access Federal Food Assistance Benefits''..... 108
Omar, Hon. Ilhan, a Representative in Congress from the State
of
Minnesota:
Link: GAO Report 19-522 dated August 19, 2020, ``Higher
Education: More Information Could Help Student Parents
Access Additional Federal Student Aid''................ 106
Questions submitted for the record by:
Banks, Hon. Jim, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Indiana....................................... 126
Fulcher, Hon. Russ, a a Representative in Congress from
the State of Idaho..................................... 126
Harshbarger, Hon. Diana, a a Representative in Congress
from the State of Tennessee............................ 126-7
Sherrill, Hon. Mikie, a Representative in Congress from
the State of New Jersey
Responses to questions submitted for the record by:
Dr. Burke................................................ 128
Mr. Oakley............................................... 134
Mr. Zibel................................................ 140
RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19
----------
Wednesday, March 17, 2021
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Education and
Workforce Investment,
Committee on Education and Labor,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:03 p.m., via
Zoom, Hon. Frederica Wilson (Chairwoman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
Present: Representatives Wilson, Takano, Jayapal, Omar,
Leger Fernandez, Jones, Manning, Bowman, Pocan, Castro,
Sherrill, Courtney, Bonamici, Scott (ex officio), Murphy,
Grothman, Banks, Comer, Fulcher, Miller-Meeks, Good, McClain,
Harshbarger, Spartz, and Foxx (ex officio).
Staff present: Tylease Alli, Chief Clerk; Katie Berger,
Profession Staff; Ilana Brunner, General Counsel; Sheila
Havenner, Director of Information Technology; Eli Hovland,
Policy Associate; Ariel Jones, Policy Associate; Andre Lindsay,
Policy Associate; Max Moore, Staff Assistant; Mariah Mowbray,
Clerk/Special Assistant to the Staff Director; Kayla
Pennebecker, Staff Assistant; Veronique Pluviose, Staff
Director; Benjamin Sinoff, Director of Education Oversight;
Banyon Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology;
Claire Viall, Professional Staff; Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff
Director; Kelsey Avino , Minority Professional Staff Member;
Courtney Butcher, Minority Director of Member Services and
Coalitions; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education and
Human Resources Policy; Dean Johnson, Minority Legislative
Assistant; Hannah Matesic, Minority Director of Operations;
Carlton Norwood, Minority Press Secretary; Alex Ricci, Minority
Professional Staff Member; Chance Russell, Minority Legislative
Assistant; and Mandy Schaumburg, Minority Chief Counsel and
Deputy Director of Education Policy.
Chairwoman Wilson. The Subcommittee on Education and
Workforce Investment will come to order. I believe we have a
quorum call. We have a Member who is being waived on the
committee. He's not a Member of the committee, but after each
of the Members speak he will be able to participate.
I want to welcome everyone. I note that a quorum is
present, so that's great. Everybody is on time and ready. The
subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on the future
of higher education post COVID-19. And you will notice that
some of the women are wearing white. This is a special day for
us, this particular suffrage day.
This is an entirely remote hearing. All microphones will be
kept muted as a general rule to avoid unnecessary background
noise. Members and witnesses they'll be responsible for
unmuting themselves when they are recognized to speak, or when
they wish to seek recognition.
I also ask that Members please identify themselves before
they speak, so call out your name before you speak. Members
should keep their cameras on while in the proceeding. Members
shall be considered present in the proceeding when they are
visible on camera and they shall be considered not present when
they are not visible on camera.
The only exception to this is if they are experiencing
technical difficulty and inform committee Staff of such
difficulty. If any Member experiences technical difficulties
during the hearing you should stay connected on the platform,
make sure that you are muted, and use your phone to immediately
call the committee's IT director, whose number was provided to
you in advance.
Should the Chair experience technical difficulty I'll need
to stop. If I have to step away to vote on the floor
Representative Mark Takano as a Member of this subcommittee, or
another Majority Member of the subcommittee, if he is not
available, is hereby authorized to assume the gavel in the
Chair's absence.
This is an entirely remote hearing and as such the
committee's hearing room is officially closed. Members who
choose to sit with their individual devices in the hearing room
must wear headphones to avoid feedback, echoes, and distortion
resulting from sitting in the same room.
Members are also expected to adhere to social distancing
and safe healthcare guidelines, including the use of masks,
hand sanitizers, and wiping down their areas before and after
their presence in the hearing room.
In order to ensure that the committee's five-minute rule is
adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time using the
committee's field timer. The field timer will appear in its own
thumbnail picture and will be named 001_timer. There will be no
one minute remaining warning. The field timer will sound its
audio alarm when time is up.
Members and witnesses are asked to wrap up promptly when
their time has expired. While a roll call is not necessary to
establish a quorum in official proceedings conducted remotely
or with remote participation, the committee has made it a
practice whenever there is an official proceeding with remote
participation for the Clerk to call the roll and help make
clear who is present at the start of the proceeding.
Members should say their name before announcing they are
present. This helps the Clerk, and also helps those watching
the platform and the live stream who may experience a few
seconds delay.
At this time I ask the Clerk to call the roll.
The Clerk. Ms. Wilson?
Chairwoman Wilson. Ms. Wilson is here.
The Clerk. Mr. Takano?
Mr. Takano. Present.
The Clerk. Ms. Jayapal?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ms. Omar?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ms. Leger Fernandez?
Ms. Leger Fernandez. Ms. Leger Fernandez is here.
The Clerk. Mr. Jones?
Mr. Jones. Here.
The Clerk. Ms. Manning?
Ms. Manning. Ms. Manning is here.
The Clerk. Mr. Bowman?
Mr. Bowman. Mr. Bowman is here.
The Clerk. Mr. Pocan?
Mr. Pocan. Mark Pocan's here.
The Clerk. Ms. Sherill?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Espaillat?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Grijalva?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Courtney?
Mr. Courtney. Courtney's here.
The Clerk. Ms. Bonamici?
Ms. Bonamici. Ms. Bonamici's present.
The Clerk. Mr. Murphy?
Mr. Murphy. Murphy is present.
The Clerk. Mr. Grothman?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ms. Stefanik?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Banks?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Comer?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Fulcher?
Mr. Fulcher. Fulcher's here.
The Clerk. Ms. Miller-Meeks?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Good?
Mr. Good. Good is here.
The Clerk. Ms. McClain?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ms. Harshbarger?
Ms. Harshbarger. I'm present.
The Clerk. Ms. Spartz?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Chairwoman Wilson that concludes the roll call.
I just wanted to add in here thank you Cheryl, thanks.
Ms. Foxx. Madam Chair, this is Virginia Foxx. I am present
also and I love your hat today.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Pursuant
to Committee Rules agency opening statements are limited to the
Chair and the Ranking Member. This allows us to hear from our
witnesses sooner and provide Members with adequate time to ask
questions.
I recognize myself now for the purpose of making an opening
statement. But before I do that I just have to say that I want
to welcome especially Keith Thornton. Keith is one of your
witnesses and you will hear from him shortly, but he is a
member of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Projects that I
have been bragging about to all of you for years, especially to
you Representative Foxx.
Now I didn't want my time to start until now. Today we meet
to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on higher
education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
education. I want to start by reaffirming a well-established
fact that the foundation of our work that a college degree is
the surest pathway to financial security and a rewarding
career.
That is why as a Miami Dade County School Board Member, I
led the creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence
Project, an in-school mentoring and dropout prevention program
that has helped prepare thousands of black boys for higher
education and adulthood.
Unfortunately, the COVID 19 pandemic has created new
barriers to postsecondary degrees. Campus closures and the
abrupt transition to online platforms saved lives. But we know
that remote instruction has also made it harder for students
across the country to access and complete college.
These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every
other facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic
with fewer resources were disproportionately impacted by the
disruption to in person instruction.
Research indicates that achievement gaps between black and
white students are wider in online classes than traditional
settings. And on campus resources that underserved students
normally rely on, like computer labs and reliable high speed
internet, are restricted while campuses are closed.
Now, fewer students--particularly fewer low-income students
and students of color are pursuing a higher education. Social,
psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
students to drop out during the pandemic. And now we know
students who discontinue their education are more likely to
default on student loans, and less likely to re-enroll which
lowers their chances of increased lifetime earnings.
Institutions are also facing unprecedented state and local
budget shortfalls which have already caused drastic funding
cuts and cost more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In
addition, decreased enrollment and campus closures are eroding
schools' revenue.
For example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges
is down 10 percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider
that when the pandemic started many institutions were still
recovering from state budget cuts made during the Great
Recession.
To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent
funding for higher education by passing three major relief
packages: The Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security
Act, or CARES Act; the Coronavirus Response and Relief
Supplemental Appropriations Act, and just last week the
American Rescue Plan.
This combined investment of more than 75 billion dollars
has helped our higher education system avert an existential
crisis. This relief is helping institutions maintain basic
operations, keep staff on payroll, and prepare for reopening
safely, and it is helping students avoid hunger, homelessness,
and other hardships.
Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical
funding for state and local governments, supporting our
nation's public institutions, the workers they employ, and the
communities they support.
While this relief may have saved our higher education
system from financial calamity, justice demands that the
Federal Government do more, far more, to address the
longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated by the
pandemic.
For example, as institution access COVID-19 relief funding,
we must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and
protect students from predatory for-profit schools. These
institutions have a well-documented record of using taxpayer
dollars to target vulnerable students during economic
downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees and unreasonable
loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of
college. It's too expensive. This includes creating a federal
and state partnership that incentivizes states to reinvest in
their public institutions and offer free community college. And
it includes expanding Pell Grants, the cornerstone of federal
student aid, and so that fewer students that have to take
take--fewer will have to take out student loans.
As the Subcommittee has already established, this pandemic
is not only testing our students and institutions. It is also
testing Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students
have access to safe, affordable, and quality education.
Today I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise
to that challenge. I want to thank our witnesses again, for
being with us and I now yield to the Ranking Member Mr. Murphy
for his opening statement. Mr. Murphy, Representative Murphy.
[The statement of Chairwoman Wilson follows:]
Statement of Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
Education and Workforce Investment
Today, we meet to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on
higher education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
education.
I want to start by reaffirming a well-established fact at the
foundation of our work-that a college degree is the surest pathway to
financial security and a rewarding career.
That is why, as a Miami-Dade County School Board Member, I led the
creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Project, an in-school
mentoring and drop-out prevention program that has helped prepare
thousands of black boys for higher education and adulthood.
Unfortunately, the COVID-19 pandemic has created new barriers to a
postsecondary degree.
Campus closures and the abrupt transition to online platforms saved
lives. But we know that remote instruction has also made it harder for
students across the country to access and complete college.
These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every other
facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic with fewer
resources were disproportionately impacted by the disruption to in-
person instruction.
Research indicates that achievement gaps between Black and white
students are wider in online classes than traditional settings. And on-
campus resources that underserved students normally rely on, like
computer labs and reliable high-speed internet, are restricted while
campuses are closed.
Now, fewer students-particularly fewer low-income students and
students of color-are pursuing a higher education at all.
Social, psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
students to drop out during the pandemic. And we know students who
discontinue their education are more likely to default on student loans
and less likely to re-enroll, which lowers their chances of increased
lifetime earnings.
Institutions are also facing unprecedented State and local budget
shortfalls, which have already caused drastic funding cuts and cost
more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In addition, decreased
enrollment and campus closures are eroding schools' revenue. For
example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges is down 10
percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider that, when the
pandemic started, many institutions were still recovering from State
budget cuts made during the Great Recession.
To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent funding for
higher education by passing three major relief packages:
the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or
CARES Act,
the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
Appropriations Act, and, just last week,
the American Rescue Plan Act.
This combined investment of more than $75 billion has helped our
higher education system avert an existential crisis. The relief is
helping institutions maintain basic operations, keep staff on payroll,
and prepare for reopening safely. And it is helping students avoid
hunger, homelessness, and other hardships.
Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical funding
for State and local governments, supporting our nation's public
institutions, the workers they employ, and the communities they
support.
While this relief may have saved our higher education system from
financial calamity, justice demands that the Federal Government do far
more to address the longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated
by the pandemic.
For example, as institutions access COVID-19 relief funding, we
must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and protect
students from predatory for-profit schools. These institutions have a
well-documented record of using taxpayer dollars to target vulnerable
students during economic downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees
and unreasonable loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of college.
This includes creating a Federal and State partnership that
incentivizes States to reinvest in their public institutions and offer
free community college. And it includes expanding Pell Grants, the
cornerstone of Federal student aid, so that fewer students have to take
out student loans.
As the subcommittee has already established, this pandemic is not
only testing our students and institutions. It is also testing
Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students have access to
safe, affordable, and quality education.
Today, I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise to that
challenge.
I want to thank our witnesses, again, for being with us and I now
yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Murphy, for his opening Statement.
______
Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Chairwoman Wilson. I appreciate the
opportunity. I love your hat also and I look forward to the
opportunity of working with you. I enjoyed our conversation the
other day. I think we have so much common ground to work on. I
could not agree with you more that individuals and minorities
and rural communities have been disproportionately affected by
this because of school closures, all of the more reason to get
our kids back in school.
America's higher education system has been in desperate
reform for years. The systems weaknesses were further
exacerbated by this pandemic. There are many pathways to
success besides the traditional Baccalaureate degree, and
institutions opposed to secondary education need to realize
that fact if they hope to have the students thrive in the
coming decades.
I could not also Chairwoman, agree with you more about the
affordability of colleges. They've gone unchecked without
reducing costs for years and I look forward to working with you
on that, nothing specific. We're not here today to discuss
whether higher education needs reform, as I think everybody on
this committee agrees so.
According to one analysis, four in ten Baccalaureate degree
recipients are underemployed in their first jobs after school,
and roughly 60 percent of students it takes at least six years
to complete their degree program. Certainly, these numbers are
not worth celebrating.
Now is not the time to expand on policies that have failed
us from government before. And while Congress does play a role
in improving all forms of postsecondary education, it should
not take the form of expensive government handouts that push
unworkable partisan priorities, and priorities that have shown
that government has led to the increased cost of education.
When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education
system Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding
for educational institutions to combat this once in a century,
and hopefully, once in a much longer-term pandemic.
Under President Trump, Congress allocated 35 billion
dollars, that's 35 with a B towards these efforts. Republicans
do not take spending taxpayer dollars lightly, which is why my
Republican colleagues voted against the Democrat led budget
reconciliation bill.
We wanted to help people, but unfortunately this was pushed
before unilateral with a large spending bill. But these
unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled into
educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
return on investment. It is imperative that Congress take a
close look at how the Department of Education and institutions
of higher learning spend hard earned taxpayer dollars, and
consider necessary structural reform to the Higher Education
Act to serve students better.
I'm disappointed that we're not going into this further,
and this hearing is seemingly having a lack of actual and
necessary oversight because I believe that is our purpose. We
have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many
on this committee find it too easy to spend hard earned
taxpayer dollars without promising accountability.
I have no problem with us investing in our students, but we
have to hold institutions accountable. As a committee our
loyalty should be to all students, present and future. Any
conversations surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
reduce the cost of attendance, and boost graduation rates while
at the same time supporting students to pursue the type of
education that works for them. It is not a one size fits all.
And that means whether it be seeking a Baccalaureate
degree, or pursuing an equally valuable skill based
alternative, such as a career in technical education or
apprenticeships that lead to in demand good paying jobs.
Before the pandemic, there were over 7 million unfilled
jobs in the United States, in part due to a skills gap. With
employers in desperate need for qualified employees, now is the
time more than ever, to strengthen all learning opportunities
that provide students with skills and the necessary knowledge
to succeed in the workforce.
This type of strategy will not only benefit students, but
will boost our entire economy. Higher education is in a state
of emergency, but we cannot allow this to turn into an excuse
to nationalize the entire postsecondary education system. The
U.S. Constitution grants no authority over education to the
Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
Constitution and for a good reason.
The founders wanted most aspects of our lives to be managed
by those closest to them, either by State, or local or by
family, businesses, and other elements of society. Certainly,
they saw no role for the Federal Government in education.
Now if we're going to be involved in education, we ought to
expect specific financial and productive return on our
investment and not put students into oblivion of debt.
Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students and
completing affordable, postsecondary education that will
prepare them to enter the workforce with the skills that they
need for life long learning, and life long success.
We ought to work together, and I mean collaboration, to
give students access to educational options that will prepare
them to enter the workforce with the skills they need for that
lifelong success. Students need pathways, not partisanship, and
it is my hope and my expectation that this is a step in a
productive and a bipartisan direction.
Again thank you all for being here. I look forward to
discussing reforms for higher education that increase student
access without expensive government handouts, partisan
programs. And I want to thank the Chairwoman for a wonderful
discussion. As I said next week I look forward to working on
trying to do great things for our students in education, and
provide all students with a wonderful means of pathway to
success. Thank you, and I will yield back.
[The statement of Ranking Member Murphy follows:]
Statement of Hon. Gregory F. Murphy, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Education and Workforce Investment
Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you to all our witnesses for
joining us here today.
America's higher education system has been in desperate need of
reform for years. The system's weaknesses were further exacerbated by
the COVID-19 pandemic. There are many pathways to success besides the
traditional baccalaureate degree, and institutions of postsecondary
education need to realize this fact if they hope to help their students
thrive in the coming decades.
We are not here today to discuss whether higher education needs
reform, as both sides can agree that the system needs work. According
to one analysis, four in ten baccalaureate-degree recipients are
underemployed in their first jobs after school. Roughly 60 percent of
students complete their degree program within 6 years. Certainly, these
are not numbers worth celebrating.
Now is not the time to expand on failed, big government policies.
While Congress has a role to play in improving all forms of
postsecondary education, it should not take the form of expensive
government handouts that push unworkable, partisan priorities.
When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education system,
Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding for educational
institutions to combat this once-in-a-century pandemic. Under President
Trump, Congress allocated roughly $35 billion toward these efforts.
That is 35 billion with a b.
Republicans do not take spending taxpayers' dollars lightly, which
is why my Republican colleagues voted against the Democrats' budget
reconciliation bill. Unfortunately, Democrats unilaterally pushed ahead
with their large spending bill.
With these unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled
into educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
return on investment, it is imperative that Congress take a close look
at how the Department of Education and institutions of higher learning
spent hard-earned taxpayer dollars, and consider necessary structural
reforms to the Higher Education Act to serve students better. I am
disappointed that this hearing seems to have a glaring lack of actual
and necessary oversight.
We have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many in this
Committee find it way too easy to spend hard-earned taxpayer dollars
without promising accountability. As a Committee, our loyalty should be
to all students, present and future.
Any conversation surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
reduce the cost of attendance and boost graduation rates, while also
supporting students to pursue the type of education that works for
them--whether it be seeking a baccalaureate degree or pursuing equally
valuable, skills-based alternatives, such as career and technical
education and apprenticeships, that lead to in-demand, good-paying
jobs.
Before the pandemic, there were over seven million unfilled jobs in
the U.S., in part due to a skills gap. With employers in desperate need
for qualified employees, now is the time to strengthen all learning
opportunities that provide students with the skills and knowledge
necessary to succeed in the work force.
This type of strategy will not only benefit students but will boost
our entire economy.
Higher education is in a State of emergency, but we cannot allow
this to turn into an excuse to nationalize the entire postsecondary
education sector. The U.S. Constitution grants no authority over
education to the Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
Constitution of the United States, and for good reason. The Founders
wanted most aspects of life managed by those who were closest to them,
either by State or local government or by families, businesses, and
other elements of civil society. Certainly, they saw no role for the
Federal Government in education. Now, if we are going to be involved in
education, we ought to expect a civic, financial, and productive return
on our investment.
Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students in
completing an affordable postsecondary education that will prepare them
to enter the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success.
We ought to work together--and I mean actual collaboration--to give
students access to education options that will prepare them to enter
the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success. Students
need pathways not partisanship.
It is my hope that this hearing is a step in the productive and
bipartisan direction. Again, thank you all for being here, and I look
forward to discussing reforms to higher education that increase student
success without expensive government handouts
______
Chairwoman Wilson. Without objection, all of the Members
who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so
by submitting them to the Committee Clerk electronically in
Microsoft Word format by 5:00 p.m. on March 31, 2021.
I will now introduce the witnesses. Keith Thornton, Jr., is
a senior at Florida International University, FIU, where he's
majoring in recreation and sports management. Keith is a 5000
Role Models of Excellence Project Wilson Scholar in an
educational talent search TRIO program alum, and he is a Pell
Grant recipient.
During the COVID-19 pandemic Keith received emergency
financial aid from both the CARES Act and CERTIA, which helped
him stay afloat. I am pleased to recognize my colleague
Representative Mark Takano to briefly introduce his constituent
who is appearing before us as a witness today. Representative
Mr. Takano, do I see you?
Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chair Wilson. It's my distinct honor
to welcome Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley, who is Chancellor of
the California Community College system. Mr. Oakley was
appointed Chancellor for the California Community Colleges in
2016, and is best known throughout California and the Nation
for implementing innovative programs and policies that help
students succeed in college.
One of the most exciting developments in California Madam
Chair, is the use of alternatives to testing to actually place
students into college level classes and avoid unnecessary
remediation. This has huge implications for diversifying----
[Audio difficulties]
Mr. Vassar. Chairwoman Wilson, I believe Mr. Takano's
connection became severed possibly.
Chairwoman Wilson. All right. So I'd like to welcome
Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley as a witness. Welcome. It's a
pleasure to have you here today. The Chancellor was appointed
for the California Community Colleges in 2016, and is best
known throughout California and the Nation for implementing
innovative programs and policies that help students succeed in
college.
Prior to becoming Chancellor Mr. Oakley was a
Superintendent President of the Long Beach Community College
District. After serving in the U.S. Army, Chancellor Oakley
began his education at a community college, first enrolling at
Golden West College and then transferring to the University of
California Irvine where he received a bachelor of arts in
environmental analysis and design and master of business
administration. Welcome.
Our next witness is Daniel Zibel. He is the Vice President
and Chief Counsel and co-founder of the National Student Legal
Defense Network. Mr. Zibel is an expert on consumer protection
and higher education and leads Student Defense Network to
ensure that student loan borrowers can access the courts to
assert their rights against predatory loan servicing practices.
Prior to joining Student Defense, Dan served as a Deputy
Assistant General Counsel for post-secondary education at the
Department of Education where he served as the lead legal
counsel to the enforcement unit at Federal student aid, and on
the Obama administration's interagency task force on foreign
project education.
Mr. Zibel has a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from
Haverford College and a law degree from the University of
Michigan Law School. Welcome.
Next Ms. Lindsey Burke is a Director of the Center for
Education Policy and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education.
Lindsey Burke oversees the Heritage Foundation's research and
policy on issues pertaining to pre-school, K-12, and higher
education reform.
She also serves as a fellow with EdChoice, the Legacy
Foundation of Milton and Rose Friedman and is on the National
Advisory Board of Learn4Life, a network of public charter
schools. Is on the board of the Educational Freedom Institute,
and serves on the Board of Choice Media.
Ms. Burke holds a bachelor's degree in politics from
Hollins University, a master of teaching degree from the
University of Virginia, and a Ph.D. in education policy from
George Mason University.
These are my instructions to you as witnesses. We
appreciate your participation today, and we look forward to
your testimony. Let me remind you that we have read your
written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing
record. Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(d) and committee practice,
each of you is asked to limit your oral presentation to a five-
minute summary of your written statement.
I also remind you as witnesses that pursuant to Title 18 of
the U.S. Code, Section 1001, it is illegal--illegal, to
knowingly and willfully falsify any statement, representation,
writing, document, or material fact presented to Congress or
otherwise conceal or cover up a material fact.
Before you begin your testimony please remember to unmute
your microphone. During your testimony staff will be keeping
track of time, and a timer will sound when time is up. Please
be attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and
re mute your microphone.
If any of you experience technical difficulties during your
testimony, or later in the hearing, you should stay connected
on the platform, but make sure you are muted, and use your
phone to immediately call the IT director whose number was
provided to you in advance.
We will let all of the witnesses make their presentations
before we move to Member questions. When answering a question
please remember to unmute your microphone. I will first
recognize my friend and son, Keith Thornton from Florida
International University. Keith.
STATEMENT OF KEITH THORNTON, STUDENT, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL
UNIVERSITY
Mr. Thornton. Good afternoon everyone. Again my name is
Keith Thornton, Junior. Chairman Member Wilson, Ranking Member
Murphy, Members of the subcommittee, thank you for allowing me
to testify today. I value the opportunity to come before you on
behalf of all students across the Nation whose educations have
been disrupted by the pandemic and who have relied on emergency
aid to remain financially afloat and continue pursuing their
degree.
The fact that my experience during this challenging period
is in many ways not unique is a testament to the severity of
this crisis, and the ongoing need for Federal relief.
I am a senior at Florida International University studying
recreation and sports management. And since my freshman year, I
have benefited from the support of fellow students, teachers,
and positive campus environment. This support network has been
critical to helping me remain focused and weather many of the
challenges that have arisen in the past year.
I am also a proud graduate of the South Florida TRIO
Program, which enabled me to form long-lasting relationships
with instructors and students who have been a consistent source
of motivation. My program instructor, Ms. Tiffany Tyler,
regularly checks in with me and checks in with my family to see
if everything is going well with us. And there was a point in
time where I was even contemplating whether or not college was
for me.
And in the end I was able to go to my peers within the
program and they were encouraging me to continue pushing
through and now I'm in a position where I'm getting ready to
graduate. And Ms. Tiffany Tyler and others provided the
guidance and mentorship that I needed to not only continue my
education, but to also enjoy it.
In the past year, these supportive relationships have been
more important than ever. When the pandemic hit, my education
was disrupted. I had to suspend my internship, and I lost my
job. I had been working for about 2 months before the start of
the semester, which enabled me to move into an apartment and
forego taking out an additional loan and having to stay on
campus.
And losing that income was a heavy blow, so it was a great
relief when a few weeks later I received emergency funds from
FIU that were made available through the CARES Act. And this
aid helped me purchase school supplies and even keep up with
bills, whether it was rent, or anything concerning my car
because I had to travel.
Without that financial support, I would have been forced to
jeopardize my future by taking out more loans that I initially
hadn't planned for. The second round of aid that I received
through the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
Appropriations Act has similarly provided a lifeline that gave
me the opportunity to continue my studies without added
financial stress.
This has been critically important because even without
having to worry about replacing the income I lost when my job
ended, it has been challenging to remain focused on my studies.
And although I haven't allowed myself to become discouraged, or
to give up, COVID-19 has had a huge effect on my ability to
stay motivated.
I struggled with the transition of virtual learning and not
having the same support network around me. Without the presence
of my peers and teachers, I felt more alone and forced to rely
on my own strength.
Still, it has been my relationships with mentors,
counselors, and other students that have enabled me to remain
on track. And with their continued support, and thanks to the
emergency financial aid I received, I look forward to
graduating as soon as this summer.
I would like to thank the Members of this committee for
thinking of students across the United States who, like me,
suddenly had to take on unexpected costs when the pandemic hit,
and for delivering meaningful relief.
I would also urge you to continue to provide support for
students who are most in need. We represent the future, and I,
like many of my counterparts, want to use our degrees to make
an impact. Although Florida tuition rates have remained flat
for eight years, many students would benefit from an effort
double the Pell considering the significant financial burden
that exists on us and our families.
Receiving financial aid that removes some of this strain
helps put students in a position to thrive. And as its name
implies, FIU has an international focus, and I want to also
speak to the importance of ensuring that international students
have the same opportunities to succeed.
They are pursuing the same dreams and have in many cases
been equally impacted by the pandemic. So I want to thank you
for the opportunity to speak here today, and I look forward to
answering any questions you may have. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Thornton follows:]
Prepared Statement of Keith Thornton
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much Keith, thank you. We
will now hear from Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley. Chancellor.
STATEMENT OF CHANCELLOR ELOY ORTIZ OAKLEY, CHANCELLOR,
CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY COLLEGES
Mr. Oakley. Well good afternoon everyone. And Chair Wilson,
Ranking Member Murphy, and Members of the subcommittee my name
is Eloy Ortiz Oakley. I'm a proud community college transfer
student, and I'm pleased to serve as the Chancellor of the
California Community Colleges.
I'm honored to speak to you today on the future of higher
education, as we look to the end finally, of the COVID-19
pandemic. My remarks will focus on how our community colleges
are supporting our students to stay enrolled and complete their
studies, and how an effective partnership with Congress and the
Federal Government can lead to an equitable recovery by
investing in higher education and supporting the displaced
workers ravaged by this pandemic.
First, let me tell you a little bit about the California
Community Colleges. We are the largest and most diverse system
of higher education in the Nation with 116 colleges serving
more than 2 million students in urban, suburban, and rural
communities. They are the primary pathway to educational and
economic mobility for Californians, and we are proud to serve
the top 100 percent of our students.
Like much of the Nation 1 year ago today, our State went
into an immediate lockdown to ensure the health and safety of
our workers, families, and students. Our colleges are--I want
first commend Governor Gavin Newsom for his swift and decisive
action. Our colleges also acted decisively.
In a matter of weeks our faculty and college leaders
mobilized to convert tens of thousands of courses and programs
to an online, or remote modality. The support of Congress has
been critical to our system, and our students during this
critical moment.
The funds provided by the CARES Act were used, among other
things to help our diverse students purchase things like
laptops, Wi-Fi hotspots, and as emergency financial aid to
students who lost their jobs, in many cases were struggling to
find their next meal, or stave off eviction.
As we look to the future of higher education, the most
important task is to ensure that students can attend, and
afford the total cost of college. As no doubt you have heard,
community colleges have seen a sudden and alarming decrease in
enrollments since the start of the pandemic.
We believe that this is due to many factors, foremost among
them being that our students, they balance multiple
responsibilities. They are parents. Primary breadwinners. They
balance multiple jobs, and they share the same Wi-Fi with a
full household and are facing--many of them are facing
homelessness and other challenges.
The economic devastation brought by the COVID pandemic has
hit our lowest income students the hardest. We are appreciative
of the ongoing discussions about tuition free community college
and would note that California provides nearly three billion
dollars in student financial aid to waive tuition for low
income students attending community colleges and four-year
universities.
However, the cost of college goes beyond tuition. It
includes textbooks, supplies such as laptops, housing, food,
transportation and child care. We have used funds from the
stimulus legislation passed by Congress to provide direct
emergency one-time assistance to our most vulnerable students.
We need stable, permanent system of student financial aid
that acknowledges the true costs of attending college. This is
true not just in California, but across the country where the
movement to double the Federal Pell is gaining momentum, and we
are pleased to support this effort.
Our commitment is two-fold--increasing financial aid for
students to cover non-tuition related expenses, and scaling
those additional student supports that they need to complete
their education. Additionally, financial support is needed to
ensure equitable broad-band access for all.
High-speed internet is not a luxury. If anything, what we
have learned from this pandemic is that every American
household must have access to reliable high-speed broadband. I
also believe the community college training programs are
critical to preparing America's workforce, and ensuring an
equitable recovery. California's workforce programs, including
those funded by the Federal Perkins Career Technical Education
Program match, employers and high-skill, high-wage industries
with educated and qualified workers.
We strongly encourage these programs that provide new
pathways to secure employment and that pay a living wage. I
believe that we should place an emphasis of community college
programs that focus on the skills and competencies workers need
to get back into the workforce in a meaningful way.
We also further support oversight of the for-profit
industry. We thank Congress for including the America Rescue
Plan Act language that strengthens the 90/10 rule which helps
hold for-profits accountable for their reliance on Federal aid
dollars.
Finally, congressional action is needed to support our
undocumented students. This is not a partisan issue for us.
This is a moral and economic imperative. Undocumented students
are our future teachers, business owners, doctors and
entrepreneurs. We urge Congress to codify the deferred action
for childhood arrivals program.
I will close by adding that with regard to equity higher
education now is the time to double down on efforts to insure
that students have the supports they need to be successful,
whether they're in California, middle America, or the Atlantic
Coast. I'm proud to represent a State that leads with equity at
the center of everything we do. We cannot do this alone.
Ongoing Federal support, a partnership with the Biden
administration, leaders of this subcommittee and the entire
Congress are needed to make this happen.
I thank you for the time. I'm honored to be here today, and
I look forward to answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Oakley follows:]
Prepared statement of Eloy Ortiz Oakley
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We will now hear from
Lindsey Burke.
STATEMENT OF DR. LINDSEY M. BURKE, Ph.D., DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR
EDUCATION POLICY, AND MARK A. KOLOKOTRONES FELLOW IN EDUCATION,
THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION
Ms. Burke. Good afternoon. My name is Lindsey Burke. I am a
Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education and the Director of
the Center for Education Policy at the Heritage Foundation.
Thank you Chairwoman Scott and Chairwoman Foxx and thank
you subcommittee Chairwoman Wilson and Ranking Member Murphy
for the opportunity to testify today.
COVID-19 has posed challenges to every aspect of education
in America from preschool through college. But it has also
presented opportunities to rethink whether the current higher
education system is serving students in the best way possible,
and whether there are opportunities for reform.
The congressional response to COVID-19 has now included
three major aid packages. As part of the CARES Act passed in
March 2020, higher education received 14 billion dollars in
additional Federal funding on top of the sector's standard
annual appropriations.
That was followed by another 22.7 billion dollars in new
funding as part of the December 2020 package. And then by the
most recent American Rescue Plan Act which will provide yet
another 40 billion to the higher education sector. In all,
colleges will have received an additional 76 billion dollars in
Federal spending over the past 12 months alone--a monumental
sum, nearly equivalent to the Department of Education's entire
annual discretionary budget.
Colleges should now take the opportunity to make sure that
that money is used responsibly. College boards of trustees and
regents need to direct their universities to tackle program
prioritization and reinvest funds in programs that advance
their core mission rather than continuing to engage in a
facilities and amenities arms race.
From 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
faculty. At the same time the 6-year completion rate for
students pursuing a bachelor's degree stood at just 60 percent
in 2020. One-third of college graduates are underemployed,
working in jobs that do not require a bachelor's degree, and
business leaders also report that college courses do not
prepare graduates for the workforce, or provide them with the
practical or technical skills needed to be successful in their
careers.
Schools should focus resources on teaching and learning and
should evaluate productivity by assessing and prioritizing
academic programs that really reinforce their core mission and
prepare students for the workforce or further academic study.
The colleges and universities should also review facilities and
amenities expenditures and auxiliary services such as dining
services and student housing, janitorial services, and consider
outsourcing delivery and management of these functions which
are unrelated to their core mission as academic institutions.
And for its part Congress should not lose sight of the tens
of billions in new relief funding now that it has been
appropriated, and should make sure the Department of Education
is providing timely and useful oversight of how colleges are
spending that money.
Congress should also rescind the elastic clause of the HEA
prohibiting creditors from using their title for keeping
authority to impose onerous regulations on institutions. And
Federal policymakers should make space for private lending to
re-emerge and for innovative education financing options to
flourish by reducing Federal subsidies, including eliminating
the Federal PLUS Loan program, both the parent PLUS and grad
PLUS components.
And finally, Federal officials should allow colleges to
limit student borrowing. Currently, colleges are barred from
assessing a student's likelihood of repaying a loan based on
that student's course of study or borrowing history. Although
these factors can predict a student's ability to repay their
loans, colleges are not allowed to limit the amount students
can borrow.
Congress should amend the HEA to allow colleges to limit
borrowing, helping students to exit school with lower levels of
debt. Colleges and universities across the country do face
challenges associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, but so does
nearly every sector of society. Ever increasing Federal
spending and subsidies will not correct problems that have
plagued the higher education sector for decades, and which
predated the Coronavirus.
Congress should take this opportunity to pursue reforms
that will help colleges navigate the pandemic, while also
increasing their value proposition moving forward thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Burke follows:]
Prepared statement of Lindsey M. Burke
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much for your testimony.
Finally, we will hear from Daniel Zibel, welcome.
STATEMENT OF MR. DANIEL A. ZIBEL, VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF
COUNSEL, NATIONAL STUDENT LEGAL DEFENSE NETWORK
Mr. Zibel. Good afternoon Madam Chair Wilson, Ranking
Member Murphy and Members of the committee. I am the Vice
President and Chief Counsel of Student Defense. We use
litigation and advocacy to bring change for students on issues
of consumer protection and higher education.
I want to thank you for having me here today. As we all
know beyond the health effects and tragic losses of this past
year, the Coronavirus has fundamentally altered so many aspects
of American lives. With respect to higher education there have
been enormous impacts on students, perspective students,
families, study loan borrowers and repayment, recent graduates,
or those who left school without a credential at all.
COVID has exacerbated economic problems, including growing
disparities in a system of higher education that has benefited
so many, but has left so many others particularly in
communities of color with long-lasting, negative effects.
We are seeing signs now of an enrollment resurgence at for-
profit colleges. Although overall, post-secondary enrollment
decline in the fall of 2020, enrollment at for-profit colleges
actually increased. This trend is similar to what happened
around the Great Recession, and is worrisome in light of the
overwhelming evidence that students who attend for-profit
colleges have worse outcomes at large than their peers at
public or non-profit institutions.
Thankfully, the U.S. Department of Education has ample
tools to make sure that taxpayer funded student loans and
grants are not propping up predatory institutions while leaving
students with mountains of debt and worthless degrees. This
spring marks the 30th anniversary of a bipartisan report by the
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, which offered
a scathing review of the department's oversight mechanisms and
led to bipartisan legislation that gave the department many of
the oversight tools it has today.
So at a time when the needs of students and borrowers are
so pressing, the department is not effectively using the tools
that Congress provided to ensure that colleges are best serving
students and taxpayers. For example, on the heels of the 1991
report, Congress sought to ensure that taxpayers were protected
when colleges failed their students.
Because taxpayers can be on the hook for hundreds of
millions of dollars when an institution closes or defrauds its
students, Congress authorized the department to recover
financial losses, not only from institutions themselves, but
also from the individuals who own or run those institutions,
including board members and top executives.
Thirty years later the department has never brought an
action under this authority. The department has largely failed
to fine schools for consumer facing wrongs, or issue other
sanctions on predatory institutions. And there are far too many
examples of the department certifying a school for years of
access to student aid funds, even when a school is facing a
known risk of losing State authorization or accreditation, or
is under investigation by State and Federal law enforcement.
Enforcement is not just about punishing misconduct. It's
also about deterring future misconduct. But even in terms of
routine compliance, the department's program review process and
compliance audits are riddled with delays and inefficiencies.
An Inspector General's sample of 739 audits over an 11 year
period found more than 75 percent to have been conducted in a
failing or deficient manner.
I've noted additional failures in my written testimony.
This is not to say that Federal student aid is always missing
the mark. But given the enormous investment in student aid, and
the life-long effects that failures can have on students and
borrowers, the department must be doing a better job of
oversight.
I want to emphasize three additional high level
recommendations. First, FSA must embed student protections in
all of its decisions. Decisions should be about what is best
for students. FSA currently considers regulated entities to be
its partners. It's long past time for students and borrowers to
be the true borrowers of the department.
Second, the department must collaborate to reduce racial
disparities around student debt. FSA should work closely with
the department's Office for Civil Rights, and the Civil Rights
Division of Justice, each of which has unique authorities and
expertise.
Third, FSA should create a public service office to oversee
issues relating specifically to teachers, nurses and so many
others. There should be personnel dedicated to coordinating
with the VA on the GI bill, and with the Department of Defense
on post-secondary programs for military members and their
families.
And the department must improve the bipartisan public
service loan forgiveness program for all public servants. At
this time, the department can and must do better. Oversight is
one piece of a larger puzzle to ensure the promise of higher
education. I look forward to your questions. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Zibel follows:]
Prepared statement of Daniel A. Zibel
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you to all of
the witnesses, and again welcome. Under Committee Rule 9(a) we
will now question the witnesses under the five-minute rule. I
will be recognizing our subcommittee Members in seniority
order, again to ensure that the Members' five-minute rule is
adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time.
And the timer will sound when time has expired. Please be
attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and re-
mute your microphone.
As chairwoman I now recognize myself for five minutes.
This question goes to Mr. Thornton. Have you had unexpected
emergency expenses due to the pandemic? If so, how has
receiving emergency funding, including from the CARES Act
helped you meet your basic needs and ensure you could continue
in school?
And how do you think additional investments in student aid,
like restoring the purchasing power of the Pell Grant would
impact future generations of students?
Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you Congresswoman Wilson. So to
answer this question I would say that you know some unexpected
emergency expenses that have come up due to the pandemic are
kind of what I mentioned was me, unfortunately losing my job
last year, right before school started.
Initially I had the job for about 2 months, and it put me
in a position to where I was comfortable enough to be able to
go out and you know get my own apartment. And with the job not
needing as many employees, I was let go from that job, so it
put me in a position to where I had to pour a lot of funds from
my savings, and it put me in a position to where I wasn't
really as able to provide for myself in terms of rent, bills,
and even things concerning school, being able to purchase
materials.
So as far as receiving under the CARES Act, it literally
came just in time, and I was able to use that to not only take
care of myself as far as where I was staying, but even take
care of myself as far as school is concerned. And I purchased
the necessary materials in order to stay afloat and gain the
wisdom and knowledge that I needed in order to pass my courses.
So that was about later last year sometime, and to answer
your question as far as additional investments in student aid.
I think it would be awesome. I think it definitely would help
us as students a lot, just given the current situation still
with this pandemic, a lot of people are still losing their
jobs.
It's hard for people to even find jobs, and a lot of
people, students my age, we work so that we can take care of
ourselves as far as school is concerned. So when it comes to
receiving additional funds and additional aid it would help a
lot. I think it would definitely have a huge impact on us being
able to stay in school an also be able to provide for ourselves
concerning our school as well.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. And with programs
like 5,000 Role Models of Excellence and the TRIO Program
alone, how has mentoring impacted your success?
Mr. Thornton. I would say it has greatly impacted my
success even now. As I mentioned with a shout out to Ms.
Tiffany Tyler who has played a huge role in me being here, in
my first year here, she made it memorable, honestly.
And for her to continue to remain in contact with me,
checking with me, see how I'm doing with school, checking in on
my GPA, making sure that I'm able to stay afloat, making sure
that I'm applying to scholarships. She honestly helped me out
so much. And for that I'm extremely grateful.
And even within the 5000 Role Models of Excellence Program
and TRIO Program, outside of mentors I was able to build
lasting relationships with young men like myself who were a
part of this program and who are still pursuing a degree. I
know that Ms. Congresswoman Wilson is familiar with a fine
young man named Preston Cooper who not only was my roommate he
was a 5,000 Role Models Alum.
And he's honestly been a great addition to my life and has
helped me grow in many different ways. So the 5,000 Role Model
in Excellence Program and TRIO Program has been tremendous and
has helped me to get where I am now, as I mentioned to
potentially be able to graduate by the end of this summer.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Mr. Zibel how can the
Department of Education better protect students, especially
those most vulnerable to abuse from predatory institutions?
Predatory actors.
Mr. Zibel. Sure thank you Chair Wilson. Look, under over
the last 4 years I think what we've seen is an administration
that eviscerated a lot of important protections for students.
Repealing the gainful employment rule, raising the bar for
Trump borrower defense, or you know the student loan discharges
for defrauded students, you know, to the point where I think
the last Congress even used the Congressional Review Act to try
to veto what Secretary DeVos had done, stalling a worse relief
for borrowers who had been defrauded by for-profit colleges.
So part of it is restoring a lot of those protections, but
that's not it. That can't be it. There has to be a cultural
shift at the department by putting student interest first.
Enforcement in this space can't just be about punishing actors,
and providing debt relief after the fact. We've got to be
deterring conduct in the first place.
Student lives are at stake, and the ramifications of this
are long-lasting, so we really need to be thinking about that
first. Our organization has been writing a lot about this over
the past six-months at 100daydocket.org about how to
reinvigorate enforcement and really put those culture
protections at the front end for all students and student loan
borrowers.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I now recognize Dr.
Foxx for her questioning.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman I appreciate that. Dr.
Burke, well thanks to all of our witnesses today. Dr. Burke
thank you for your testimony. Congressional Democrats are
passionate about oversight of one particular sector of
postsecondary education, the for-profit sector.
The congressional Republicans care about all students at
all institutions. What are the current institutional
accountability metrics in the Higher Ed Act and how effective
are they? Were these effective during the pandemic, or were
they exposed as deficient?
Ms. Burke. Well thank you Chairwoman Foxx for that
question. The current accountability metrics in the Higher
Education Act, I would say are rather lacking if we just look
at outcomes. And that applies to all sectors. I think that it
is inaccurate to say that problems in higher education are
solely a function of career and technical education programs.
If we look at traditional four-year brick and mortar
colleges, unfortunately, we see low graduation rates across the
board. I mentioned that the 6-year graduation rate is 60
percent earlier, that's something that should concern us all.
I really think that we should compare apples to apples when
we're thinking about accountability. If you look at certificate
programs across the country, just 45 percent of students who
pursue a certificate at a public college had earned it with 3
years. That figure actually rises to 70 percent for students
who attend for-profit colleges.
And then there are other metrics as well. Andrew Gillan who
researches in this area found that there are 514 colleges, many
of these are community colleges at which the loan default rates
of their students actually exceed their graduation rates, and
he has called these red flag institutions.
And so you know we need accountability across the board. I
think one way to do that is to advertise the college scorecards
a little bit more. There's a lot of data already on that
college scorecard. There are data about almost everything that
you could want to know about college outcomes.
So I think it would help greatly if we had actors in the K-
12 space like school boards, across the country making public
schools aware of the information, making guidance counselors
aware so they can provide that information to students.
Sunlight really is the best disinfectant and that applies to
accountability within the higher education system as well.
And then of course I would argue that one of the
accountability measures that we really need is accountability
for taxpayer dollars because at the end of the day our taxpayer
funds, the Federal Government originates and services 90
percent of all student loans now.
And a big step in the right direction, as I mentioned
earlier, would actually be to reduce some of these Federal
subsidies to make space for private lending to re-emerge.
Private lenders are in a better position to judge a student's
ability to repay those loans moving forward.
I think that is the single best accountability measure that
we could put into place.
Ms. Foxx. Well thank you very much. When I heard Mr. Zibel
say that it is inappropriate to punish actors, and we needed to
put students first, I thought that he was talking about the
Obama administration actually.
Do you have an idea on how we could align the incentives of
institutions, employers, taxpayers, and students. I think you
mentioned about accountability, but how do we align the
incentives so that it appears to be a win-win, instead of a
win-lose situation all the time?
Ms. Burke. Yes that's a great question Representative Foxx.
I think one of the best things to do is really a State level
effort, and we're already seeing this in 32 states across the
country, Virginia, Tennessee, Indiana, many others, where they
have policies in place that allocate their funds to public
colleges based on measures that include course completion, so I
think that's one good step in the right direction.
And then again at the end of the day, I think we can take a
cue from the market. We can look at what industry is doing when
it comes to really realigning incentives. There are many
industry upscaling programs that are out there at the moment.
You can look at companies, Amazon, FedEx, others that will
actually prepay tuition for programs that are aligned with
different career paths within their organization, and so I
think that's a way to really responsibly align incentives.
A lot of that though is going to have to happen at the
State level and within the private sector.
Ms. Foxx. Great. Well you gave me a good segue to talk
about fostering a culture of life-long learning, which we think
is very important. But the current system is not designed for
multiple access points and off ramps. What HEA reforms can
Congress make to create a system where short-term programs,
stackable credentials, and life-long learning is the new
normal?
Ms. Burke. Well that's such a critical question as well.
You know there are conversations right now around allowing
existing Title IV funds to go to shorter term programs to allow
students to direct those dollars to options that currently
aren't eligible under ETA rules because of those time
limitations.
I think that's a really good step in the right direction.
That would enable a lot of individuals, people who want to
switch careers, you know, mid-career to engage in earn and
learn opportunities, to take some of those Title IV funds to
shorter term program.
I think that's a step in the right direction. There are
larger reforms that need to take place like decoupling Federal
financing from accreditation to allow Title IV dollars to flow
in a more piecemeal way, but at least in the near-term, those
short-term options are a good step in the right direction.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman. I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. Mr. Takano of
California. Mr. Takano are you still connected? We'll come back
to Mr. Takano. Is Mr. Murphy on? Mr. Murphy of North Carolina,
Mr. Murphy.
Mr. Murphy. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson. First of all I
want to acknowledge Keith Thornton, Mr. Thornton, just to
congratulate you on the fine work that you've done, wish you
the best of success. You know that success comes from within,
and it doesn't come from being handed down to you, but it comes
from hard work and opportunity.
So I congratulate you on what you've done, and encourage
you to do even greater things and we look forward to hearing
back from you. So a question I'll direct, at least the first
one toward Dr. Burke, and thank you for joining us today. Your
testimony will help us as we seek to work with our Democratic
colleagues to reform the HEA, and the best interest of students
and taxpayer.
I want to stress the importance of bipartisanship. Last
year Congress came together in a bipartisan manner to pass two
COVID-19 relief packages that included specific, and very
significant funding for postsecondary education.
I have to say I was disappointed that this last funding
package went across party lines and was not a bipartisan
effort, and that's disappointing I think, not only for the
country, but for our Congress as whole. We need to really work
together. The American people are better served when we tackle
problems shoulder to shoulder.
In that vein Dr. Burke, let me ask your assessment of what
Congress did last year with the Higher Education Emergency
Relief Funding. Can you put into context the size and the scope
of the postsecondary educational bailout? You talked about
numbers before, but I'd like you to flush that out a little bit
more if you will.
Ms. Burke. Sure. Thank you Representative Murphy for that
question. I did talk about numbers before. I think it's
important to reiterate some of those numbers. The CARES Act was
14 billion for higher ed, and then we saw the second package in
December. That was another 21 billion dollars in that
supplemental proposal.
And then again colleges and universities will receive 40
billion as a result of this third package. So in all we're
talking about over 70 billion dollars. As I said this is more
than the entire Department of Education's annual discretionary
budget, so it really is a breathtaking sum.
I did a back of the envelope calculation this morning, and
if you consider the fact that there are 20 million roughly,
college students across the country, and we have now expended
as a result of these three packages in additional Federal
spending, 76 billion. That's over $3,800.00 per college
student, just in these additional funds that have gone out the
door.
So it really is like I said, I don't think there's a better
word to describe it than a breathtaking sum of new Federal
spending. And of course this is not free money. This is
taxpayer money. It gets handed down to future generations.
Right now we have about 28 trillion dollars standing as our
national debt, that's $84,000.00 per person in the country, and
this will certainly add to that.
So it's a large amount of money and it really needs some
oversight.
Mr. Murphy. I think we're good. That's OK. All right. Well
thank you Dr. Burke. Let me just say you know I've been very
concerned about administrative bloat, and I wrote a couple
papers on that. I was on a board of trustees at a liberal arts
college, and I saw our administrative bloat compared to the 42
other sister colleges skyrocket.
My fear is that Mr. Zibel would prefer we had more
committees, more Vice Presidents, more other bureaucracy. And
as we've seen the level, the amount of educational dollars that
actually go toward teaching students, does pale in comparison
to that of adding more administrative bloat.
I fear that now that we've poured all this massive money to
colleges, instead of actually learning to contract their
budgets and be responsible with them, will actually do just the
opposite. We'll see more lazy rivers. We'll see more quiet
oasis rooms. We'll veer from the mission of colleges to teach
students before.
So to your point they're going to now be flush with money.
And anybody flush with money is probably in some ways, I fear,
because of higher education and what they've done historically
in the last 10-15 years, they're going to spend it. And what
does that do in all of a sudden 5-10 years when that money runs
out, all of a sudden that is going to be demanded upon students
and giving them much, much, much higher access or risk, or
again being bankrupt when they have all these massive charges.
I wish you could speak to that just a little bit about
administrative bloat, and what this money is you think in your
prediction, is actually going to do to college costs in the
future.
Ms. Burke. Sure thank you for that question. Administrative
bloat is a huge problem. We have seen significant numbers and
staffing increases over the past decade. I mentioned earlier
that from 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
faculty and colleges across the country.
If you just look at non-instructional staff at universities
around the country, that now accounts for more than half of
university payroll costs, the non-instructional staff. Just 40
percent of full-time employees at non-doctoral colleges are
instructional staff.
And that figure actually drops to 28 percent at doctoral
granting institutions. So just 28 percent at those institutions
are teaching faculty. This is something that higher education
scholar Preston Cooper has looked into at length, and he has a
new report he just put out that I would commend where he
recently found that since 2003 only one-third of the increase
in colleges and universities core expenditures has gone to
spending on instruction, just one-third of the increase goes to
instruction.
As he says almost all of the rest has fed the growth of the
vast administrative apparatus of these institutions. And so as
I mentioned in my opening statement, colleges really have
needed a course correction for decades, and so you know, I
think too many unfortunately are now looking at these various
stimulus bills as a way to pay for general fiscal mal-
administration over the past two decades.
Mr. Murphy. Dr. Burke thank you. We're passed our time. I
appreciate it. Thank you Madam Chairman, I'll yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you Mr. Murphy. Ms. Burke you are
consistently going over time. Please be mindful of the clock.
It's there for you. You seem not to hear me when I'm telling
you that you're over time, so you will have to keep up with the
time, and when you see that your time is up please stop. We
have a long hearing and a lot of people to ask questions. Thank
you.
Mr. Takano of California is our next person, speaker.
Mr. Takano. Thank you Madam Chair. My question is for
Chancellor Oakley. Chancellor could you comment briefly on how
California deals with the balance between the administrative
costs and instructional costs?
Mr. Oakley. Absolutely. And it's a pleasure to be here
again answering these questions. First of all in California you
know each State is different. But in California in the
community colleges, we actually have a law. It's called the 50
Percent Law, which requires every community college to assign
at least 50 percent of all revenues that come from the State to
instruction, to the classroom.
Now because the nature of instruction has changed quite a
bit over time, we have had to expand that view because there
are a number of other efforts that go into supporting a
student, including a lot of the student supports that help a
student succeed. So that is the way we handle it, and I would
also say that because our system is comprised of 73 districts,
all have locally elected boards, as well as a State system
which has a board of Governors.
There is a sunlight all over our system. So these questions
are constantly addressed. They're constantly examined, and
we're constantly being held accountable for where our dollars
go.
Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor. You know this hearing is
in relationship to the American Rescue Plan and how it relates
to education. I know that in California your sister
institutions, the California State University System, and the
UC system, have suspended the use of standardized tests for the
purposes of admission.
Do you expect that--it's not really an experiment, it was
sort of forced by circumstances. Do you expect these sorts of
things, these sorts of practices to continue after the pandemic
is over?
Mr. Oakley. I do. In the California community colleges
we've eliminated the use of standardized placement exams. We
have found through our own research, as well as research that's
happened across the country, that the use of standardized exams
for the purpose of placing the students in courses has
significantly undermined low-income students from all
backgrounds.
The same is true for standardized admissions exams. And I
think the research is overwhelming now. I think places like the
University of California have seen the impact that it has had
on low-income students and communities of color. And I don't
believe that we are going back to those practices in the
future.
Mr. Takano. Is it not true that this innovation, this
experimentation of not using tests like the placement, or to
place students into college level classes at California
community colleges. But that was going on pre-pandemic is what
I understand, and can you tell us about what you've seen? Is
your faculty happy with this? Have the outcomes been good? Have
your transfer rates suffered because of the fact that you're
placing students by using instruments other than standardized
tests?
Mr. Oakley. So first of all the use of what we call
multiple measures placement. That is using multiple sources of
information to gain information about a student, and place them
in the course that they deserve to be in, and particularly in
math and English, has been going on for several years in
certain pilots across the system.
A couple of years ago this became law for the entire
system. Since then students who have been placed using this
method, without using standardized placement exams, students
are succeeding in numbers equal to those students that may have
begun in remedial courses before then.
We have seen significant, significant increases in the
number of students of color that have been placed in transfer
level English and math, and they are succeeding at the same
rates as other students. So we have seen nothing but success
thus far. It's given us a lot of good information about how we
continue to roll this system out.
And as we continue to rely less and less on remedial
courses, and rely more and more on providing students a pathway
to getting into courses that actually count toward their
educational goal. And that's been the biggest change. So many
courses were created in remedial education before this change
that were leading nowhere.
And so many students, particularly those of low income
status were getting trapped in these courses and not being able
to complete their educational goal.
Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor my time is up. It sounds
like innovation was already happening in California community
colleges, and it sounds like diversifying the higher education
is also being significantly impacted. Madam Chair I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We'll now here from
Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin.
Mr. Grothman. Yes. Thanks for having me. I have a question
here for Dr. Burke. You know over the weekend I ran into
another woman, age 51. She got laid off. She had a general
degree, had a good job, and now she can't find anything. And
she was just bemoaning the fact that when she was you know,
rather than go to a four-year college, why she wasn't a welder,
a medical tech of some nature, something or other.
And I still hear back home well-paid guidance counselors
advising everybody to go to college when again and again, I
find people not going to college lined up higher paid with less
student debt, and more job security. What can we do to
straighten out these reasonably well-paid guidance counselors
to give people a little bit better advice, not to mention, on
the other end of the thing.
When I talked to our employers in construction, in medical
field, and manufacturing. Well right now the only thing holding
us back from building more housing in Wisconsin, we can't find
anybody to do the work. What can we do to straighten out these
guidance counselors there Dr. Burke? It's a lot of people's
lives.
Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Grothman. I completely
agree with you that we need to be communicating to students
that there are multiple pathways to climbing the ladder of
upward, economic mobility in America. And too often, the only
answer that we give them when asked what they should do, is
attend a traditional four-year college.
And that has not served many students well who would be
better situated in the future if they did something other than
go through that four-year brick and mortar route. And you know
to your point about construction workers and mechanics,
electricians, waitresses, you know, all of these individuals
end up bearing the cost of Federal bailouts, and ever-
increasing Federal subsidies in the higher education sector.
I think it's always important to bear in mind that still
today two-thirds of Americans do not hold bachelors degrees,
and it is that two-thirds of Americans who also have to pick-up
the cost for ever-increasing Federal spending.
Mr. Grothman. OK. I'll give you a general question. You
know again I hear talking to my trade unions or tech schools
and people, you know, going back, getting a skill, maybe in
their early 30's, after they already got a college degree in
their early 20's.
Percentage-wise Doctor Burke, I have no idea what
percentage of people going to a four-year college would be
better off not going to one today in your opinion.
Ms. Burke. Well it's hard to say, and it depends on how you
quantify better off. You know even an individual who might not
see a massive increase in earnings after having graduated,
might still say that the experience was worthwhile for them.
People go to college for a lot of different reasons. But
one thing we do know is there are an awful lot of students who
leave without earning that paper credential that they had so
fought to get. So many students right now are leaving without
graduating, and I mentioned 60 percent, 6 year college
graduation rate. And really the worst position you can be in is
having gone to two or three or three and a half years of
undergrad work, taken out those loans and not graduated with
that paper credential.
And unfortunately, we do see that in many cases. So I think
that for those individuals you could make the case that another
path would have been much more worthwhile, but it is hard to
quantify.
Mr. Grothman. Well, OK I know there's certain authors who
take a stab at it, but I'm going to come back to the woman I
talked to over the weekend. You know I frequently make the
pitch for young people to get a skill, rather than college, and
that you're going to graduate with less debt, and frequently
make more money immediately.
One thing I don't think is taken into account is if you do
wind up with some middle low management thing, and you're laid
off when you're 50 or 55, in our society frequently you're
almost unemployable. Whereas if you have a skill, you can keep
working until you're 60 or 70 or 80 if you want to. Could you
comment on the benefit of having a skill, a specific skill set
in manufacturing, med, tech, whatever, as opposed to a general
degree on people who get laid off when they're over 40?
Ms. Burke. Sure. Well what we do know, and I can't give you
specific numbers on the skill-based side. But what we do know
is that there are a large proportion of students who are
leaving undergraduate work, and entering jobs that do not
require a college degree. And so this high level of what we
refer to as underemployment is a real problem.
And I think does suggest that many of those students would
have been better served pursuing options that are skills-based
in nature.
Mr. Grothman. Well thank you Dr. Burke. I appreciate what
you're saying, and I hope you continue to educate young people
around the country to get a second opinion from their guidance
counselors, who are frequently well-paid and giving bad advice
for their pay. Thank you.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ms.
Jayapal from Washington I see you driving, welcome.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you Madam Chair. I am not driving I
promise you, but I am in a car because I didn't want to miss
this very important hearing. It is clear that the pandemic has
had a negative impact on college enrollment for all students,
particularly low-income, first generation, and certainly
freshman of color, who we've seen a nearly 30 percent decline
in community college enrollment across the country.
And since a degree, a higher education degree, whether it's
skills training, or a four year college, remains a strong
pathway to the middle class our economic recovery may be
largely dependent on affordable access to postsecondary
education. And that's why I'm excited for the Seattle Promise
Program in my district, and proposals like My College for All
Act which President Biden has embraced, to make both four-year
and two year public higher education free for families earning
up to $125,000.00.
Mr. Thornton it's very clear from your testimony that
Federal programs like TRIO have been meaningful to you
personally, and in your student career, in spite of programs
that help some students shoulder the cost of textbooks,
housing, food, and childcare, data still shows that due to
COVID-19 as many as 56 percent of students will need additional
aid to stay enrolled.
Is it your opinion that more comprehensive Federal
assistance would help students to stay in school?
Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for asking, and I
definitely agree that additional funding would help students be
able to stay in school. I think kind of being a living
testimony to the current situation with the pandemic, me plus a
bunch of other students like myself, some people we literally
worked, some students we worked to actually stay in school to
pay tuition, to pay to afford books and school materials.
And I think that additional funding definitely would assist
in the students being able to stay in school, and pursue their
dreams, or their dream job, or pursue a career with their
major.
Ms. Jayapal. So important. Thank you so much. Considering
Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of the [audio issues] to
less than 30 percent at a public four-year college, would you
speak more on this disparity making college increasingly out of
reach for too many people?
Mr. Vassar. I think the beginning of your question was not
heard Congresswoman Jayapal.
Ms. Jayapal. Oh OK, thank you. This is a question for
Chancellor Oakley. Non-tuition costs are an important
consideration since Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of
expenses to less than 30 percent at a public four-year college.
Would you speak more on this disparity making college
increasingly out of reach for too many people?
Mr. Oakley. Absolutely and thank you for that question
Representative Jayapal. This is particularly an acute situation
in states like California. High cost of living states, high
cost of living communities. Our students, particularly those
who attend California community colleges and those who attend
broad access public institutions come from some of the lowest
income communities in California and throughout the country.
So the cost of attending college is the most significant
cost. States like California for example, the California
community colleges has the lowest tuition in the country. In
addition, more than half of our students don't pay tuition
because of the California College Promise.
So the cost of attending college, the true cost of
attending college is the issue that keeps so many students from
one, attending college, and two, attending full-time because so
many of them have to juggle multiple issues, have to maintain
work in order to provide for their families and for their own
education.
So Pell is a significant component to helping those
individuals afford to go to college, to complete their college
education in a four-year period of time. And it has not been
keeping up with the cost of attending college.
And so supporting an increase in Pell is certainly
something that we support, as well as continuing to reduce the
cost of attendance is also a key ingredient.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And my College For All bill
would double Pell, and it would allow states with tuition
programs to redirect any of their savings toward making college
more accessible. How would--my College for All bill also uses a
Federal/State partnership to make public four-year universities
free for qualifying students.
Chancellor, how would having a Federal partnership that
allows states to redirect savings to non-tuition costs help
colleges nationally as they struggle with low enrollment?
Mr. Oakley. Well I believe this Federal/State partnership
is critical. States are in the primary role of providing
support for our colleges and universities and they're doing--
states like California are doing a remarkable job of providing
the additional support, lowering tuition, keeping tuition low,
keeping the cost of college low.
So this partnership would be beneficial in that states like
California could use those additional resources to provide
additional support for students, either support services or
support for non-tuition related costs.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And this is a key important
piece, and I look forward to working with you. Madam Chair I
yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. According
to my records Mr. Good of Virginia is the next questioner. Mr.
Good you're on.
Mr. Good. Thank you Madam Chairman, and thank you to all of
our witnesses for being with us today. My questions will be
directed specifically to Dr. Burke. Dr. Burke I wanted to ask
you how do you think Federal funding has contributed to the
exploding costs of higher education?
Ms. Burke. Well thank you for that question Representative
Good. It has clearly contributed. If you look at the inflation
adjusted tuition rates since the 1970's. Those have quintupled
at both public and private colleges across the country. And
then when you compare that number to Federal subsidies, and
those subsidies over the same time period have really increased
dramatically with spending on student loans rising 328 percent
over the last 30 years, from about 20 billion in 1990 to about
87.5 billion in the most recent year of data available.
So, and I would also say that this question of
disinvestment and State spending is I think, also a little bit
off the mark. Because if you look at appropriations for public
colleges and universities at the State level, those have
increased $1,700.00 per pupil in real terms since 1980.
So it is safe to say, I would agree with Economist Richard
Vetter at the University of Ohio that dumping Federal subsidies
out of helicopters as he once put it, has only enabled
universities to increase their costs, their spending
profligately, and really pass that on to students.
Mr. Good. I've had students tell me, and parents tell me
that once they get on the student loan treadmill it just
continues. In other words they get loans, it's almost you have
to work deliberately to stop the student loans from coming.
Once you enroll that first semester that first year, it seems
automatic.
In your testimony you talked about requiring university's
report on the use of Federal funding. What specific questions
might you ask them to report on?
Ms. Burke. Sure. And I think specifically with regard to
the new money that has gone out the door, we really need to
know whether colleges are using these funds to actually help
students who are struggling. There's statutory requirements.
About 50/50 of those dollars going to student-based aid, and
then the other 50 percent going to institutional priorities,
but we really do need to take a look and encourage colleges,
and the Department of Ed to assess if they're sending that
money to students who are financially struggling.
And then second I would say, we should assess if they're
actually using those funds to build out their IT and distance
learning capacities to navigate any sort of similar existential
threat in the future that they might face like another
pandemic.
Mr. Good. You've done a great job of verbalizing what most
of us have already seen in the way that college education costs
are just going through the roof, far outpacing inflation,
multiple times over.
Besides addressing funding, what policies do you think
Congress could do that could help enact the amount of the non-
classroom, non-education expenses specifically, the more what
many might think are wasteful or exorbitant, or excessive,
whether it's staff, or whether it's activities that are being
funded.
What role do you think Congress could play. How could
Congress help address the amount of spending that's going to
administrative type and other, maybe what some people might
think, excessive and wasteful spending?
Ms. Burke. Well I think the single best thing Congress
could do would be eliminate the Plus Loan program. The Grad
Plus Loan program in particular, this allowed graduate students
to borrow up to the cost of attendance, and then the Parent
Plus program allows parents to borrow for their undergrad
student's college experience.
And that really encourages, a family level of debt, and
family level borrowing for families. So eliminating the Plus
Loan program would be the No. 1 step to take. And as I
mentioned earlier, actually allowing colleges themselves to
limit the amount of money that students borrow.
Mr. Good. It seems we have systemic issues where there's
not a partnership between parents, families if you will, of
students and the institutions, and trying to together work to
make college affordable without putting people of course into
excessive debt.
What might be included? What role might Congress play to
help improve competition in such that like a career in
education, a technical education, temporary programs,
vocational programs, community college, and other workforce
development pathways might be able to get on equal footing with
the traditional four-year school.
Ms. Burke. Yes thanks. Again, I think one of the best
options there would actually be reforming accreditation,
decoupling Federal financing from accreditation to allow new
quality assurance mechanisms to pop up, to allow a State to for
instance, enable the Mayo Clinic to credential a nursing
course, or the State of Virginia to allow Mount Vernon to
credential a history course.
And then enable Title IV funds to actually follow students
to those individually credentialled courses and courses of
study. And again, couple that with those short-term options for
Title IV funding that would allow individuals to go find the
skills and competencies they need immediately without going
through a four-year brick and mortar college, would be a second
extremely important step in that direction.
Mr. Good. I think I've about expired my time. I thank you
very much for answering my questions, and again appreciate you
and all the other witnesses being with us today. I yield back
my time Chairman.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Ms. Leger Fernandez
of New Mexico welcome.
Ms. Leger Fernandez. Hello. Thank you so much Chair Wilson.
And thank you to the witnesses for joining us today. Mr. Zibel,
we've heard misrepresentations about your testimony. Would you
like to respond quickly?
Mr. Zibel. Thank you Congresswoman. You know I think there
were two comments. One from Ranking Member Foxx. I guess to put
it bluntly, I don't think I said anything about punishment not
being important. I think it is an important aspect of deterring
misconduct.
And when there is an institution of higher education, and
we've seen this for decades. I really would encourage the
Members to go back and look at the bipartisan report that
Senator Sam Nunn and his committee drafted, back in the early
nineties.
And it really is deja vu all over again for some of what
we've been seeing. And you know this is about protecting
students at the front end. This is about making sure that
students aren't saddled with debt, that they will never repay
because of worthless degrees. This is about making sure that
individuals are getting the economic opportunity through
education to better their lives, and to ensure that the
taxpayer investment in this, through grants and loans is being
well spent.
So you know it's not about partisan politics. I think if
you look back at the history of this, Secretary Bennett, the
Education Secretary under President Reagan was a fierce critic
of the for-profit education industry, and for good reason at
that time. And you know, history has a tendency to repeat
itself, and you know, that's what the Department of Education
needs to be doing, is really making sure that that does not
happen again.
It does not happen to saddle yet another generation of
students with these mountains of debts that will never be
repaid.
Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you for that clarification, and
also making sure that we all focus. Our focus should be,
indeed, on the students. And in thinking about the focus on the
students I am, like the chair and others who have testified
today, concerned about the non-tuition costs of college, and
that the pandemic has simply worsened food insecurity, and that
that's something that the Rescue Act can address with the
emergency funding.
Miss Chairwoman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
record an article from the Santa Fe Reporter entitled, ``New
Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity.''
Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
Ms. Leger Fernandez. I'm also concerned about declines in
student enrollment. And students of color in particular, right,
have seen steep enrollment declines during the pandemic. In New
Mexico, as an example, we've seen about a 10 percent decline
from fall 2019 to fall 2020.
We are also in New Mexico, facing the need to diversify our
energy sector and move to a green economy, and will really need
those partnerships without our higher education schools to lead
in training for this just renewable innovative economy, like I
like to say, in New Mexico.
In Santa Fe Community College we just partnered with our
National Labs and the renewable energy sector connecting
schools and employers. Chancellor Ortiz Oakley, what do you
believe are the best practices to recover student enrollment,
and especially addressing those programs which could develop
the workforce for new economies like the green economy?
Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman.
First and foremost, I strongly believe that community colleges
are the greatest answer to a recovery with equity in America.
They are closest to the students that we're talking about. They
open their arms to every student, whether recently displaced
worker, or a recent graduate from a high school.
And community college is college, so they are preparing
students for success in 21st Century economy. So first of all,
I believe one of the greatest impacts on our students has been
the economic fallout, the health effects from the pandemic. Our
communities of color and low-income communities have been hit
the hardest. So for them it is an economic issue, so providing
direct, emergency support of any kind possible, is one of the
best antidotes to helping them be able to make the choice
between paying rent, and paying for their tuition and books, so
that they can continue their education.
Second, it's addressing the needs of displaced workers. So
many working adults were already struggling post the last
recession. This pandemic, the economic fallout, has devastated
their opportunity to be in the economy in a meaningful way. So
supporting short-term, career-training programs, to help get
the support, the skills and competencies that workers need
today, I think is critically important to a recovery with
equity.
Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you very much Chancellor, I
yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Ms. Miller-Meeks of Iowa
you're next. You're now live.
Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you so much. I appreciate it Madam
Chair. Thank you for holding this subcommittee hearing, and for
providing for the witness testimonies. Thank all of you for
testifying today. So I'm a little unusual. I'm one of eight
kids. When I was burned at 15, decided to become a doctor. And
so I left home at 16.
I actually enrolled in San Antonio Junior College as it was
called at that time, then was able to get a degree in nursing,
a master's in education and ultimately a medical degree. So I
fully support what you've said about community colleges and a
pathway for education, especially for minority, for women, for
under-represented groups of low-income, but actually for any
student who wishes to go onto college, especially if they're
concerned and aren't quite sure what they want to major in, or
what will be a successful career path for them.
Having said that I was able to work, go to school and have
a combination of loans. And so my question for Dr. Burke is
that there appears to be a dramatic rise in the number of loans
borrowed for graduate level programs, and often these graduate
level programs lead to high-paying jobs.
And I'm concerned about the combination of unlimited
Federal lending, and unlimited loan forgiveness for these
individuals who may ultimately result in a higher income career
pathway. So can you briefly explain in you're concerned about
this, and you know what can Congress do to create a responsible
lending program, and how can these reforms lead to lowered
college cost for students?
Ms. Burke. Great thank you Representative Miller-Meeks. I
appreciate that. It is, it's a major concern I think for many
of us. The proposals that are out there right now to forgive
student loan debt anywhere from $10,000.00 to $50,000.00 and
student loan debt, depending on what proposal you look at, are
incredibly regressive in nature.
They would really shift the burden of paying for college
away from those individuals who do in fact directly benefit
from their education onto, as I mentioned, the two-thirds of
Americans who don't have bachelors degrees, and would
presumably not earn as much down the road on average, as their
college-going counterparts.
And you also bring up a really important point, which is
the point about professional degrees and borrowing. We know
that individuals who pursue professional degrees in particular,
on average, do quite well. Doctors, lawyers, and so the idea
that we would forgive those student loans among those
individuals who statistically speaking are likely to earn a
decent living moving forward, really, as I said earlier, is
regressive.
And so I think to get back to my earlier point, if we want
to drive down costs, we need to tackle the Plus Loan program.
The private lending market will meet the needs of students who
are pursuing professional degrees, knowing full well that their
ability to repay those loans will be very high in the future.
Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you for that. And in Iowa we have
concurrent enrollment for high school and for community
colleges as pathways to success. We also have the Iowa Student
Loan program, and you had mentioned about private lending and
Federal lending.
We're very concerned. They do a great job of mentoring
students, advising them, looking at if they're a certain
educational pathway, how that will result in income and ability
to pay back loans. And I'm concerned about, you know, doing
away with an institution such as the Iowa Student Loan program
which does a great job of preparing students and also giving
financial literacy.
So if students want to find good jobs after college, and
that could mean that it leads to a baccalaureate, but it could
be a different career pathway. And there is a discrepancy
between what students feel like they know what employers say
about their job readiness, and I just was going to ask if there
are some non-traditional education pathways that students
should be exploring, Dr. Burke.
Ms. Burke. Thank you. There certainly are a lot of really
innovative non-traditional pathways that are out there, and I
think interest is growing in these pathways, because we know
that employers, as I mentioned earlier, are reporting that
students who attend the traditional four-year route, aren't
often prepared.
There was a survey that came out in 2018 from the National
Association of Colleges and Employers that found that although
almost 80 percent of students believe they're proficient in
oral and written communication, just 42 percent of employers
agreed.
And then that survey was followed-up by a subsequent survey
from the Association of American Colleges and Universities that
found that similarly, while 62 percent of students felt they
were competent in these skills, just 28 percent of employers
agreed. So this gap in skills was eluded to earlier, does have
negative economic impacts.
It's left more than six million jobs empty across the
country, so I think all of that calls into question the value
add for a lot of institutions.
Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you Madam Chair. I yield back my
time.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. And now our good
friend Mr. Jones of New York. Welcome to the committee,
welcome.
Mr. Jones. Thank you so much for your leadership Madam
Chair. And thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing
before us today. On behalf of the American people I want to
thank Chancellor Oakley for your innovative work to address the
challenges faced by community college students during the
pandemic.
Mr. Zibel, for your work to hold the bad actors in our
higher education system accountable, and of course Mr. Thornton
for sharing your important first-hand experiences as a student
during these hard times. While the ongoing pandemic has put a
strain on colleges and universities, we can all agree that the
core problems in U.S. higher education predate the COVID-19
pandemic.
Wages have been stagnant for literally decades when you
adjust for inflation, even as the cost of a four-year college
education has soared. The average debt of someone graduating
from a four-year college or university today is four times
higher than it was in the early nineties, and this burden is
not shared equally.
Women, people of color, and members of the LGBTQ community
hold a disproportionate amount of student debt, and find
themselves less likely to graduate with a four-year degree. In
my district, in Westchester and Rockland Counties in New York,
where the cost of living is sky-high, thousands of young people
must live at home with their parents in part, due to the
student debt that they shoulder.
This delays, or outright forecloses their home ownership,
which we know to be the single greatest generator of wealth in
America. So I look forward to working with my colleagues to
address these issues, and want to thank them for their work to
make college accessible, affordable, and equitable for all.
Before turning to my questions, I do want to set the record
straight on the idea that increases in financial aid somehow
lead to increases in tuition. That is simply not true. First of
all no study on the so-called Bennett hypothesis has been able
to find convincing evidence that this hypothesis is real, at
least at public institutions.
However, a rigorous study found that for-profit
institutions eligible for Federal student aid, charged 78
percent more than comparable programs at ineligible, for-profit
institutions. This strongly suggests that we need better
oversight of the for-profit sector, not that we should stop
providing students with Federal aid to enroll in college.
Mr. Zibel, I'd like to begin with you. As you stated in an
interview last year, there are many problems for the government
to address in this country right now, and the Department of
Education doesn't have to wait for Congress to act when it
comes to providing student debt relief.
I've been a leader on this issue in the Congress. Indeed
Congress has already given the Department of Education clear
statutory authority to forgive Federally owned student debt
under the Higher Education Act. So Mr. Zibel would you agree
that under existing law, yes or no, the President or his
education secretary has the ability to forgive federally-owned
student loan debt with a stroke of a pen.
Mr. Zibel. So thank you Congressman for your question, and
I appreciate your earlier commentary leading up to it. This is
an important topic, and something that I understand that the
White House and the department are taking a very, very close
look at. You know quite frankly it is not something I have ever
taken the kind of legal dive that I think needs to be taken.
And I really want to defer to the experts who have taken
the dive on that one before, commenting in front of Congress
today. But I think what's immediately clear is that there are
buckets of student loan borrowers for whom that immediate 100
percent loan relief is doable right now. These are the 400,000
borrowers who government has already determined are eligible
for total and permanent disability discharges.
These are the borrowers that the department has already
found victimized by predatory for-profit colleges. These are
borrowers who are attending schools that closed. And government
needs to be taking those steps right now today, to discharge
100 percent of those loans.
Mr. Jones. Yes. Mr. Zibel I appreciate that, reclaiming my
time, and actually I agree with you, and I would like to enter
it back into the record a paper you co-authored in October 2020
on this very issue of for-profit colleges, personally causing
financial losses to students and taxpayers because of their
misconduct. Madam Chair I'd like to enter that into the record.
Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
Mr. Jones. And I would just to put a finer point on this, I
understand that you don't consider yourself an expert on this
subject, but Mr. Zibel you would at least agree that the
Department of Education has already used its statutory
authority to pause the collection of student debt, and indeed
the accrual of interest, which is obviously a form of student
debt cancellation, yes or no?
Mr. Zibel. Yes. I mean quite----
Mr. Jones. Thank you. Reclaiming my time. Thank you so
much. And finally, as we close, as concerns about the spread of
COVID-19 increase, so did reported incidents of bullying,
racism, and xenophobia toward the Asian, Asian American, and
Asian Pacific Islander, or AAPI communities on college campuses
across the country.
Consequently, individuals from these communities reportedly
afraid to engage on basic day to day tasks, like going to the
grocery store, or walking alone in their neighborhoods.
Chancellor Oakley, what can colleges and universities do to
ensure that AAPI students feel safe and valued in their classes
and on campuses?
Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. First
of all to be very clear, all colleges and universities should
immediately and clearly repudiate any attacks on the Asian
American or Pacific Islander community. We need to engage
directly with our students, our faculty and our staff to
discuss these issues, to ensure that we remove the stigma that
has been applied to Asian American communities around the
COVID-19 pandemic, or anything else.
So we should treat this issue like we would any other
racial reckoning issue and take it on head-on. We have a direct
role in that, and we have our classrooms and our colleges, and
our microphone to be able to weigh in on this.
Mr. Jones. Thank you sir. Madam Chair I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Let me be mindful to
the witnesses. There's a time limit. And when you see stop I
will give you the opportunity to finish your thought, but not a
whole minute. Some of these issues are so important we need to
address them, but we have to be fair. Thank you so much. And
now Mrs. McClain of Michigan you're now live Mrs. McClain.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you so much Madam Chair. I appreciate
the opportunity to be on this committee, and I appreciate
everyone on the committee as well as all the witnesses. My
question is really regarding oversight and directed to Dr.
Burke.
You suggest Congress keep a watch on the tens of billions
of dollars colleagues are spending in emergency relief. What
exactly are some categories of expenses you are most interested
in, and what indicators should Congress pay attention to that
show it used taxpayers money responsibly?
Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Representative
McClain. So as I eluded to earlier, there are statutory
allowances for these additional funds, and then there are the I
think recommendations for what colleges should be using these
funds for.
So for example, the public and non-profit schools can use
the money in these emergency higher education reform dollars
for financial aid to students, and then they can use about half
for institutional revenue, so that can be anything from faculty
and staff training, it can be payroll costs, it can be
backfilling lost revenue, it can be backfilling lost revenue
due to a lack of sporting events, so it really runs the gamut.
So those are indeed allowable uses of these funds. At the
university level though, I think what they really should be
using these funds for is to support struggling students. And as
I said earlier, build out their IT infrastructures so that they
can navigate these challenges in the future.
And so I think that's the role of oversight at the
Department of Ed, is to really look at what they're doing. They
do have to submit reports, universities do regularly on how
they're spending these funds. I hope the department makes those
reports as public as possible.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you. I yield back my time. Thank you
very much.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. We'll now hear from Ms.
Manning of North Carolina.
Ms. Manning. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all
the witnesses for being with us today. My first question is to
Chancellor Oakley. I have two terrific community colleges in my
district. I visited them when I was in district last to see the
incredible things they're doing, and how they're holding up
during his pandemic.
They're doing all they can to support their students, but
they have seen enrollment decline. How have you handled the
tuition, the reduce tuition revenue from declining enrollment
if your community colleges had to take cost-cutting measures?
And if so, what kinds of things are they doing?
Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Representative
Manning. And North Carolina has amazing community colleges.
First of all, the pandemic has had a direct impact on the
revenue and expenses that community colleges have had to incur.
One, as you mentioned, there has been a decline in
enrollment. This means a decline in student fees, tuition,
other revenue that colleges collect, as well as the increased
cost to going remote or online almost overnight, providing the
training to support the faculty, and the direct support to
students.
So what we've done is work first and foremost with a State,
the legislature and the Governor, to make sure that they are
aware of those costs, and make sure they are aware of those
revenue declines.
Fortunately, Governor Newsom and the legislature provided
direct support for our colleges and universities, and we've
also been working with Congress. We're very appreciative of the
aid that you've provided us. I do agree that that aid needs to
go to support students, and support the classrooms, so that we
can become more resilient.
And I think by and large, community colleges across the
Nation have done exactly that. They have been on the front
lines. They did an amazing job of on a dime, transitioning to
remote learning, and that remote learning has had a cost. And
so we need to continue to support community colleges like yours
in North Carolina, because they do the yeoman's work in
supporting those who have been hit hardest by the pandemic.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. And as hope is on the horizon and
we look toward the post-pandemic world, what steps do you think
community colleges can take to reverse those enrollment
declines?
Mr. Oakley. Well I think given the resources that have been
made available, community colleges need to be reaching out
directly to their communities, directly to their students,
trying to understand what their needs are, ensuring that
emergency aid goes directly to them, and working with
employers, and community members to provide them the jobs that
they need, the hours that they need in order to make ends meet,
so that they can continue their education.
So I think that is the beauty of community colleges, they
are in communities, they work with community members, mayors,
employers, that has to be done on steroids in order for us to
reach those students.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. Let me ask you about another area.
I am a former immigration attorney, and the plight of
undocumented students is one that is of great concern to me.
And I believe we need to find a pathway to citizenship for our
DACA students, as well as a pathway to success for all of our
future workers.
Is this something that you believe we need to address, and
do you have any comments on what we can be doing to address
this?
Mr. Oakley. We absolutely need to address this. California
community colleges have over 70,000 DACA students, the largest
of any State in the country. These are individuals that serve
their communities. They work in their communities. They do
everything possible to support their communities, so we need to
provide them the support that they need to come out of the
shadows, get the education that they need, and contribute
meaningfully to the economy, and to support their families.
So absolutely, we would implore Congress to codify the DACA
program, and to provide a pathway to citizenship.
Ms. Manning. Thank you so much sir. I'm going to turn to
Mr. Zibel. I recently received an e-mail from a constituent who
was very concerned because her non-profit college is being
merged with an out of State institution that was formerly a
for-profit institution, but is becoming non-profit.
And in tracking colleges that convert from for-profit to
non-profit status, the Century Foundation found that three non-
profit schools with the most fraudulent complaints were those
that had converted to non-profit status, but have not truly
shifted their governance or power structures away from owners
who had a financial interest.
What are for-profits colleges, or why rather, are for-
profit colleges increasingly converting to non-profit status,
and what role should the Education Department play in ensuring
that if they say they're non-profit they actually are?
Mr. Zibel. So I see that my time is just about up, if it I
may permitted this briefly, I can try and do that. I think the
reality is that the department needs to be scrutinizing
transactions very, very carefully to make sure that what is a
bona fide non-profit, is actually a non-profit and that a for-
profit is not acting as a non-profit.
And I think GAO put out a report about a month and a half
ago or so, on this issue, actually said the department was
doing a better job of reviewing these and scrutinizing these,
but really this isn't a one stop look at a school, it's got to
be a long-term constant review to make sure that the people who
are profiting before aren't still profiting after the
transaction.
Ms. Manning. Thank you so much and I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, thank you. I know
it's hard remotely. Next we'll hear from Mr. Comer of Kentucky.
Mr. Comer. Thank you Madam Chair, and I'm going to wear
both my committee hats with these questions, my Education
Committee as well the Oversight Committee. Over the last few
years Congress has appropriated record levels of funding to
universities and many universities are using it well.
For instance, universities in my district have really
focused on trying to provide educational opportunities that are
focused on the workforce, and what the regional employers want
and need and offer the best paying jobs.
Kalamazoo University is a great example. They've adapted
the certification process then I have some communities
colleges--Henderson Community College, Madisonville Community
Colleges, working on some really innovative workforce
development type programs that are in need.
So the funds that have been invested in those programs
obviously have been well-spent, however there are valid
concerns that in many other instances, many of the universities
didn't serve the students with the best possible outcome and in
their best interest about the taxpayers and the student.
Last year the Trump administration issued a ruling
clarifying that only Title IV eligible students qualify to
receive emergency student aid funding provided by the CARES Act
and COVID relief. The rule is currently held up in the court
process. My question is for Dr. Burke. Do you think the rule
was consistent with other practices related to Federal student
aid? I'll stop there.
Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Comer. I do think it is
consistent. These funds are open just to students who are Title
IV eligible, that's consistent not only with Title IV broadly,
but it's also consistent with other prior practices. If you
look at the 1996 Welfare Reform Act for example, that limited
public assistance programs to most legal immigrants for five
years, or until they attained citizenship.
So there's precedent there as well, not only in the
existing Title IV program, but also in the '96 Act.
Mr. Comer. Dr. Burke what's the most responsible way
institutions can direct these emergency student aid dollars?
Ms. Burke. Yes, right. So it's a great question. They
really should target it toward students who are in the most
need of that spending. And many of these dollars are flowing to
universities based on the proportion of students who are Pell
eligible, and so there is that built in system in place already
which was a good step in the right direction I think, a good
safeguard to put into place.
But making sure that you know at the university level,
they're not just giving a blanket across the board aid to every
student in the institution of you know $1,000.00 or whatever it
might be, but actually assessing those students who are in need
at the university level.
Mr. Comer. Great. Let me shift gears and talk about COVID-
19 that the health and educational institutions adapt to meet
the challenges of COVID-19, that the Department of Education
and Congress provided many of these institutions temporary
relief from a lot of regulatory burdens.
Dr. Burke are there any related modified regulations or
guidance that Congress should re-evaluate as institutions are
planning for future semesters?
Ms. Burke. Sure thank you. So as I mentioned earlier I
think there are a few regulations that are in place that do
deserve a second look. That elastic clause that I mentioned in
my opening testimony, I know it sounds like a very specific
reform, but right now that enables accreditors to layer on
numerous additional requirements on a university. Just a
hypothetical, if an accreditor wanted to mandate a dress code,
it's not outside of the scope of that elastic clause.
And so removing that clause to keep what accreditors can do
solely focused on the metrics that are contained within the
statute of the HEA would be a very good step in the right
direction.
Mr. Comer. OK. That's good to know. Dr. Foxx, and Fred
Keller, and myself are all on the Oversight Committee. We're
really focused on the regulatory process and the change of
administration has brought a lot of regulatory changes and
uncertainty in a lot of different industries and education
would be right in there.
So we relaxed a lot of regulations during COVID, and in
many cases that worked out very well. And I would like to make
a lot of those relaxed regulations permanent. Obviously, we
always have to look at the regulatory process, and education is
no different. So I appreciate that. And Madam Chair I
appreciate the hearing, and look forward to future hearings,
and appreciate our witnesses for being here today. I yield
back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you. And now
we'll hear from Mr. Bowman of New York, who is the new Vice
Chair of the full Education and Labor Committee, welcome. Proud
of you.
Mr. Bowman. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all the
witnesses for being here today. My question is for Mr.
Thornton. I'm going to start with Mr. Thornton. During your
testimony you mentioned that at one point you didn't feel that
college was for you, or you didn't feel that you were college
material. I know I'm paraphrasing here.
Can you speak to why that was? Like why did you have that
feeling at that time?
Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Bowman.
And the reason why I felt that way, so this was my freshman
year. And coming into school, honestly, things began to get a
little rough for me personally, primarily with school, being
able to maintain the focus on being able to uphold to the
standard of being able to achieve the school curriculum in
terms of you know the certain classes, excuse me, that I had to
take.
So with that constant pressure, me putting pressure on
myself and even with outside pressure that was not necessarily
intentional with three of my sisters are going to college, all
of them obtaining their master's degrees.
I personally had some pressure that I felt in myself with
having to reach those goals and attain that degree. And even
with being able to not fail, and feeling like I didn't want to
put my family's money at risk of just being wasted because of
where I was at.
So that's kind of the reason as to why. Those are some of
the thoughts I was having internally as far as being able to
stay in school.
Mr. Bowman. Yes I know what you mean. I have three sisters
as well, and raised by a single mom. So I know the pressure
that the women in our lives put on us.
Mr. Thornton. Yes.
Mr. Bowman. To reach their standard. So how did you
overcome it? You know what did the university provide to you in
terms of advisers, in terms of academic support, what have you,
how did you overcome that pressure and that feeling that you
didn't belong? And how were you able to set yourself right?
Mr. Thornton. Yes of course. So when it came down to
referring whether I did, it took me having to speak up, rather
than waiting for something or for someone to come to me and ask
me how I was doing. So it took me reaching out to, as I
mentioned, you know, a TRIO program instructor, Ms. Tiffany
Tyler, who has played a huge role in my life, reaching out to
her, speaking to her about some of these things.
Her guiding me and really encouraging me to continue to
push forward, and even my counterparts, my peers within the
university. I've built long-lasting relationship through the
TRIO program as I've mentioned 5000 Role Models as well.
And even you know I'm part of a club here on campus as
well. Having those people in my life, and just speaking and
sharing my heart, sharing my life with them. There are times
where I was able to do homework with them, study with them, and
it really just pushed me to stay in school to think about the
future, the ways in which I can have an impact in the world
with a degree.
So you know having people in my life was a huge component
of me deciding that this is something that I can do, and
something that I will do, and that's kind of you know pushed me
to where I am today getting ready to graduate. So that's been a
huge motivator for me.
Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much for sharing that. You're an
inspiration to me personally, and to all of us, so please keep
going brother. I appreciate you. Chancellor Oakley, since the
onset of COVID-19 there has been an increased demand from
mental health services as students deal with trauma, and
economic and health crises, in addition to managing their
school work.
Chancellor, how have your institutions managed this
increased need?
Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. The
mental health toll that the pandemic and the economic fallout
has taken on our students has been significant. Many of them
are in communities where we have had not only the economic
impact of COVID-19, the health impacts because many of those
communities lacked access to quality healthcare, but also the
racial reckoning that has gripped this country, happens in the
communities that we serve.
So all those things have come together. We have been
working with the Newsom administration and our legislature to
gain access to resources that help fund mental health services.
Our legislature has provided some of those resources. We are
working with counties and cities to share resources, to make
sure that our students have access to those mental health
resources, but they are only a drop in the bucket.
And this is an area where Congress also has been helpful
because some of those relief funds have been used to provide
that kind of assistance, that kind of support to our students
who need it critically right now for them to continue their
education.
Mr. Bowman. Thank you for that. Mr. Zibel, though
enrollment is trending down at community colleges, the reverse
is true for for-profit colleges. While for-profit colleges saw
substantial and consistent enrollment drops in the years
leading up to the pandemic, the sections enrollment spiked up
last fall.
This appears to be a pattern as for-profit colleges have
saw a similar enrollment spike after the Great Recession. Do
you have any concerns with these trends, and what lessons can
we learn from the years following the Great Recession?
Chairwoman Wilson. Mr. Vice Chair your time is up.
Mr. Bowman. Oh sorry, thank you.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Someone else--he'll probably
answer it in another question from another Member. Thank you so
much. We'll now go to Ms. Spartz of Indiana.
Ms. Spartz. Thank you Madam Chair. I just have a question
to all the panel. You know we all agree we have a lot of
problems and challenges in higher ed. I was a college faculty
myself, and I also taught in public accounting college. It was
a national team, a trainer for several other accounting firms.
We had a lot of talk, a lot of discussions, a lot of different
performances, so I understand it.
We need to have better return on investment, following
investments in human capital. Colleges need to have skin in the
game, and we need to have better outcomes, not worthless
diplomas, none of that, inflated grades and all these things
and now the kids are not ready to life-long learning.
So my question is we had lots of talk, lots of discussion,
proposal but nothing ever gets done. So my question is, and
I'll start with Dr. Burke, is there any prospects where
actually something gets done, or we'll be discussing for next
10 years how we're going to reform higher ed and nothing is
going to happen.
So what are your thoughts on the prospect of anything
happening in the near future.
Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
Spartz. So I think the prospect for reforms like moving on
either short-term Pell, or enabling students to use their Title
IV funds for shorter term courses. I think the prospects are
pretty good for that in terms of bipartisan support overall.
There are, of course, some inherent concerns with some of
these proposals that you don't increase spending overall on
these programs when you enable those dollars to flow to shorter
term courses, but I think that there are ways to structure
those reforms to make sure that the cap remains tight, but
still enable students to have more flexibility and to make
those dollars more nimble.
Ms. Spartz. But I'm talking about better outcomes in all
postsecondary education, so having real reform when we
understand that you know, we should bring some value right? If
we're going to invest in human capital, and use taxpayers money
particularly to do that, we need to have a return on
investment.
And colleges need to have skin in the game, and they
shouldn't be piling up all this debt on these kids, a lot of
them, with no jobs right? Because I only care if you have a
job, and you have some meaningful employment that it brings
some value.
So is there any prospect of having that ever accomplished?
Ms. Burke. So I do think that there is some agreement that
in general the current metrics for example, the cohort default
rate, are just really not cutting it in terms of providing the
data that we need and the, you know, oversight that we need for
some of these institutions.
And so there are conversations that are happening about
changing that metric to something maybe closer to a
programmatic default rate that could work better. There is
still going to be problems inherent in that approach as well,
and so to my mind it all comes back to the fact that we are
even having this conversation because Federal taxpayers are
implicated, and financing so much of the higher education
system today.
So winding down the debt in the student loan program, I
think is a necessary precondition for reigning in costs and
providing some needed accountability.
Ms. Spartz. Yes our colleges do have to have skin in the
game too.
Ms. Burke. Yes.
Ms. Spartz. So I'm sure. Dr. And Mr. Zibel and Mr. Oakley,
and maybe Mr. Thornton quickly. Do you think there is any
prospect of meaningful reform in the near future? Yes, no,
because I'm not sure how much time I have left.
Mr. Zibel. I actually think there is Congresswoman, and
especially you know if you talk about skin in the game, and
making sure that there's value.
I think one of the most important things that
administration can do is bring back the Gainful Employment
Rule, which was designed to solve exactly the kind of problems
that you were just referring to where students are graduating
from programs without any prospect of employment in
relationship to the amount of debt that they are taking.
Secretary DeVos repealed that rule. And you know I'm
hopeful that the Department of Education can bring it back, and
actually give it time to work going forward.
Ms. Spartz. Mr. Oakley?
Mr. Oakley. Short answer is yes. I see a lot of reform
happening. The fact that you have a person from a community
college testifying today means that things are changing, that
we are recognizing the value that institutions like community
colleges provide to the country. So I'm very hopeful and I see
a lot of change in California.
Ms. Spartz. OK. Well hopefully we'll stay optimistic and
get some hope. Mr. Thornton what do you think? You're probably
new to all this.
Mr. Thornton. Yes I definitely am new to all this. But I
would say that I do have hope and faith that there will be a
change moving forward in the future. I'm excited to see how
things continue to grow and to progress as Mr. Oakley attested
to. You know, him coming from a community college background I
think is amazing just to see him here now, and just even having
that same dream and hope for other people that were in his
position.
So I definitely feel good moving forward to see some
changes in America.
Ms. Spartz. OK thank you. I will stay hopeful, and I'll
yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. And a
veteran Member of the committee now, I yield to Mr. Pocan. How
are you, Wisconsin.
Mr. Pocan. Very good thank you Madam Chair, and I
appreciate. Thanks to the witnesses, and my apologies to
everyone for coming back and forth. Every vote we have is 45
minutes. Unfortunately, we have about 100 colleagues who have
not been vaccinated so we can't shorten the time period, and
it's chaotic because of it. So my apologies up front.
A very quick yes/no question Dr. Burke. I'm hoping, I'm not
sure if I heard something right. Were you just talking about
winding down the student loan programs? Is that a yes or no in
the near future?
Ms. Burke. Yes.
Mr. Pocan. OK yes. Thank you. I'll move on. So Mr.
Thornton. I was someone who when I went to school I grew up in
a lower middle class family, got lots of student loans, Pell
Grants, things that Ms. Burke apparently doesn't like.
And that's why I was able to go to college, and get a
degree and appreciate, you know, what you're talking about
right now and the support that you got. I think also part of
the testimony was that all this money went to the
administrative ether at universities, but I assume you like me,
don't consider our lives administrative ether.
You talked a little bit in your opening remarks about how
some of the support from the programs that we've done with
COVID helped you very directly to be able to continue to be
able to go to school. Can you talk a little more, just a little
more about that, or about any friend's stories also that have
been helped because of the programs that Congress did around
COVID?
Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Pocan.
And I could speak for myself personally, kind of like what I
mentioned as far as the last semester, the fall semester that
just passed. Me initially having a job, me being able to take
care of myself financially, whether it be with school expenses,
or expenses outside of school whether it was rent or bills.
Me losing my job put me in a position to where I just
really had to take a lot from my personal savings, so with the
funding that was provided I was able to provide for myself in
different ways, primarily with school and you know school
materials.
And in addition to that things outside of school. So the
funding that was provided definitely played a huge role in my
life personally, and you know I could definitely speak about
that for sure.
Mr. Pocan. Thank you. What's your major by the way? I don't
know if I caught that because we're always back and forth. I
didn't catch that.
Mr. Thornton. Oh yes of course. My major is recreation and
sports management.
Mr. Pocan. Awesome. Well I wish you great fortune with
that, and thanks so much for being here and sharing your
stories. A question for Chancellor Oakley. You know we just had
a staff assistant position open in my office. We got 330
applications for it, and we noticed a lot of them graduated in
May 2020 and have not had a job since then, obviously because
of COVID.
Is there anything that universities are doing, or should be
doing to kind of help that student, that this year has been an
incredibly tough year? Many of them probably are living back
home because we noticed the addresses are from around the
country. But what can we do to help those students, because you
know, I'm glad that they were able to get the education, but I
know the next connecting step is to a good job.
Mr. Oakley. So very quickly. I mean working with employers,
working with industries to provide for some type of paid
internship I think is critical for all college graduates to
have the opportunity to get into the workforce as soon as
things start to open up.
It's critically important that college students have access
to have the skills that they need, but also in terms of what
they need to do the work, but how to exist in a place of
employment. So I think we need to double our efforts to help
students get some sort of workforce opportunity, internship or
other paid workforce training.
Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you. And then a final followup if I
can because I have to go to vote on this series now. It has to
do with Dr. Burke's question that we need to wind down our
financial aid programs, that there's just too much of a largess
out there.
Mr. Oakley. Well I think we agree on the umbrella which is
there is too much debt. I do think that we need to continue to
improve the amount of resources that we're providing to the
lowest income Americans and help them pay for the cost of
attending college which continues to increase.
Mr. Pocan. And that includes more Pell I would assume.
Mr. Oakley. Absolutely.
Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you very much. I yield back Madam
Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. According to my
records Ms. Harshbarger of Tennessee you can go on the record.
Mr. Fulcher of Idaho? Ms. Stefanik of New York? Mr. Banks of
Indiana? Ms. Omar of Minnesota.
Ms. Omar. Thank you very much chairwoman, and thanks to all
our witnesses for joining us. To Mr. Pocan's point it's been a
really busy day, so I do apologize if some of the questions I
ask have already been asked of you. Even before the COVID-19
pandemic hit, there were many students who were struggling to
cover the cost of basic needs like housing, food and childcare.
The COVID-19 pandemic has added to many of the hurdles
faced by minority and low-income students working to complete
their college educations. And these challenges are compounded
for student parents.
A recent report including the GAO study, has highlighted
the challenges that a student parents face in terms of college
persistence and completion. Madam Chair I request unanimous
consent to enter this into the record.
Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
Ms. Omar. Chancellor Oakley, how have child center closures
affected the ability of student parents to remain in school?
Mr. Oakley. This has had a devastating effect on our
students, and thank you for that question Congresswoman. This
has had a devastating effect. So many of our students in the
California community colleges, and this is true of community
colleges across the Nation, are working parents.
And so lack of access to childcare, and the fact that so
many of them have had their children in their household having
to work on educating them remotely, sharing Wi-Fi with them,
all of these have created challenges that have made it very
difficult for working parents to continue their education.
Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. I was a working parent when I
completed my college education, and so I'm wondering if there
is any support that colleges are providing currently to this
vulnerable student group, and if you have any recommendations
for Congress to provide support.
Mr. Oakley. Well I think right now the most important thing
to do is to provide these working parents, these students,
direct emergency support. They need economic support right now,
so that when they're making choices about whether to feed their
family, or to continue to enroll in college, we don't force
them into those choices.
So I think we need them to participate in the economy. We
need them to complete their education, so I think investing
directly in supporting these working students is critical to
our future, and to an equitable recovery.
Ms. Omar. And how do you see the creation of an environment
that does set these students up for success post-COVID?
Mr. Oakley. So I think it's critical that we work with
employers, that we work with labor organizations that support
these working parents to focus on insuring that we provide what
they need to get into jobs that pay a livable wage so they can
support their families.
Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. Madam Chair I will yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I see Mr. Fulcher
from Idaho's camera on. I'm not sure if he is available? We'll
go now to Ms. Sherrill of New Jersey? Mr. Espaillat of New
York? Mr. Grijalva of Arizona? And a true, true veteran of the
Education Committee Mr. Courtney of Connecticut, he's here.
Mr. Courtney. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson, and thank you to
all the witnesses. Keith, your testimony has been really
stellar, and you know, congratulations to you and the Chairman
for the great work that you and her work in terms of you know,
creating these kinds of pathways for young people.
Mr. Zibel I have actually been watching a little bit out of
the corner of my eye during the hearing. Chairman Powell from
the Federal Reserve is sort of giving his sort of update
regarding the economy, and announced that again, the sort of
low interest rate, zero percent policy--monetary policy, of the
Federal Reserve is actually going to continue through 2023.
I mean a very I think, you know forceful policy position to
keep borrowing costs down. And as we know, you know, for the
last year that's been the policy, and people in the private
sector have benefited greatly from it. You know residential
property owners, credit card debt, car loan debt, but you know
the one form of debt that is still stuck with the higher
interest rates is student loan debt.
And you know President Biden's pause, which is a good thing
in terms of helping people's cash-flow, who are student loan
borrowers, that expires at the end of September 2021. And so,
you know, potentially you know those higher interest rates are
going to snap back into place.
Again, even if there is student loan forgiveness of
$10,000.00 or $50,000.00, there's still going to be a lot of
debt left over there. And so you know I was wondering if you
could sort of talk about it from a consumer point of view. I
mean the only decisionmaker that can change that is Congress.
That's pretty well understood as the President really is
not a unilateral authority under the Higher Education
Authorization to cut rates by himself, and we've done that a
number of times over you know the time that Frederica and I
have been in Congress.
You know it just seems like it screams out for action by
Congress not to let these interest rates snap back, and first
to do something about taking advantage of the low interest rate
environment. And I was wondering if you could comment on that.
Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Congressman. It's an excellent
question and I should caveat this was you know I'm not an
economist. I'm a lawyer. But you know, just as a matter of
principle I think that everything you are saying makes a lot of
sense. There is no reason why student loan borrowers should be
saddled with higher interest rates than you know, other
financial products.
I think Congress would be well to look at reforms to the
Bankruptcy Code. Student loans are not dischargeable in
bankruptcy for the most part, and that is something that I
think both the administration and Congress could be taking a
look at to really try and bring relief to borrowers who are
struggling so immensely right now.
Mr. Courtney. Well thank you. Again we've tried actually in
the last few Congresses, myself, Frederica and others have you
know cosponsored bills to bring down the interest rates. And
again, given Chairman Powell's announcement today, I mean it
really is more than high time for us to move out and create
some parody in terms of lending costs for people with student
loan debt.
And you know Mr. Oakley, I don't know if you have any sort
of comment on that. I realize maybe you know the interest rate
issue for current students is not as urgent, but certainly you
know, later in life it could really pose a real hindrance on
their success.
Mr. Oakley. Well absolutely. I mean all the things that
were just mentioned, and I certainly support Mr. Zibel's
characterization of the challenge. We need Congress to act to
support students who do have to take out these loans by
reducing the interest rate, by allowing them to go through
bankruptcy court.
So these are issues that saddle our students for decades.
And in many ways keep them from participating meaningful in the
American economy, and from creating wealth.
Mr. Courtney. Great. Well thank you. You know just to share
with the committee and the witnesses, I had a constituent who
emailed the other day about a student loan bill that he
received, which again was paying 7.8 percent interest. Again,
totally trapped.
And there was a warning quote in there that only the U.S.
Congress can lower that rate. Because you know I'm sure that
the loan servicer is getting bombarded with questions about why
do I still have to pay 7.8 percent interest when you know,
everything else is you know close to zero.
And I think you know they're basically saying call your
Congressman. So hopefully, you know, more people will talk
about that, because it really is something that we as a
committee should take a look at. And with that I yield back
Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you very much. Mr. Fulcher I see
from Idaho, I see you back and forth. You are on camera. You're
next. Mr. Fulcher are you going to join us? If not we'll go to
Ms. Bonamici.
Ms. Bonamici. Thank you Madam Chair. And thank you to all
the witnesses. In particular, I want to thank Mr. Thornton.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It's really
helpful for us to learn from. I also want to not let it go
unsaid that there are with regard to Dr. Burke's comments about
limiting borrowing based on someone's course of study, multiple
issues and problems with that, particularly from the equity
perspective.
And very subjective who makes that decision, and you know,
just take a look someday at what philosophy majors make.
They're very successful because they know how to think
critically, and employers are looking for skills like empathy
and teamwork, and problem solving. Those are all things that
come from studying broad fields, including the humanities.
So I want to turn to Chancellor Oakley. Nice to see you
again. We know there are serious inequities in higher
education, and that's true in Oregon and across the country
even before the COVID-19 pandemic, and students were already
struggling to cover not just the cost of tuition, but we know
other expenses, housing, transportation, childcare, food.
Now there are unexpected costs because of the pandemic
adding to it. And particularly for community college students
like I was, these costs are significantly higher than the costs
of tuition. So Chancellor Oakley, recent reports including a
GAO study have highlighted food and housing insecurity, and I
have spoken with college students, particularly community
college students in Oregon about this.
I'd like to enter the GAO report into the record Madam
Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
Ms. Bonamici. Thank you. So Chancellor, how are the
California community colleges providing for example, case
management and services to low-income students, and how are you
connecting them with resources like those that are available
through SNAP, WIC and TANF? And how are you making sure the
students access those resources while they're not physically on
campus?
Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
Bonamici. You are absolutely right. There was a huge crisis in
our system before the pandemic. We saw record amounts of food
insecurity. Record amounts of housing insecurity and the
pandemic has significantly exacerbated the problem.
So we have been working first and foremost, we are a
community college, we are working with cities, with non-profit
institutions, in localities where we exist in providing support
for our students.
We've provided support for technology, for food through
food pantries, and things of that nature. We've also worked
with our legislature and Governor Newsom to provide emergency
aid. Just a few weeks ago the legislature passed an emergency
action package that provides emergency support directly to
students, which will support their needs for food and housing
insecurity, as well as mental health services and other things
that are impacting them right now.
We've also continued to advocate to you all, to Congress,
and to this new administration of the need to provide this
direct emergency support. I understand----
Ms. Bonamici. Chancellor, I don't want to interrupt but I--
--
Mr. Oakley. That's quite all right.
Ms. Bonamici. ----I have a consumer protection background,
so I absolutely must get a question in for Mr. Zibel. Thank you
so much for being here. The Obama administration as you know,
established the Borrower Defense Rule to streamline the process
for students to assert their right to loan forgiveness when
they're defrauded by the institution.
Unfortunately, the Trump administration failed to implement
the rule and give students the relief they deserve. So what can
the Biden administration do immediately to address the problems
with Borrower Defense that were created by the past
administration?
Mr. Zibel. Sure. Thank you for the question. There is a lot
the department can do, and I think most immediately it's taking
the issue seriously, providing relief, 100 percent relief to
the borrowers who it has already determined to have been
defrauded by a predatory college.
There is simply no excuse at this point in time for the
department dragging its heels on that. I want to, you know the
consequences for these borrowers, it's devastating for them for
an economic impact, housing impact, mental health impacts.
But the other point that I want to emphasize on this is
that these are borrowers who really feel like not only did
their school fail them, but their government failed them. Their
government failed them by putting a seal of approval on these
schools, leading them down a path, and then not giving
forgiveness, even though they've already made sufficient
findings to do so.
Ms. Bonamici. In my remaining few seconds, just to followup
on that. Some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
were talking about complaining about what they call
administrative bloat. But actually some of the worst bloat I'm
aware of is when colleges use Federal funds to advertise for
perspective students.
Recent data indicates that colleges spend 730 million
dollars on advertising and degree granting for-profit
institutions, and that's you know 40 percent of all higher
education advertising spending for just 6 percent of the
students, so that is something that I would say is
administrative bloat we should be looking at is what the for-
profits institutions are doing to try to recruit on often-times
students.
So I see my time is over, and I yield back. Thank you Madam
Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. You have a lot of seniority
but your time is up. And now Mr. Scott, esteemed Chairman of
the entire committee on Education and Labor. Do you want to
close us out?
Mr. Scott. I'll try. Thank you very much. Let me first ask
Ms. Burke you mentioned we talked about short-term Pell's, but
I think there's a consensus that this is a good idea. The only
caveat we have is people open up little storefronts and
stealing all the money, dealing out worthless credentials.
We want to limit those privately to community colleges, and
referrals from job training, workforce investment, Opportunity
Act boards. Do you think that would be sufficient to keep these
in the hands of those that are actually using them well?
Ms. Burke. I think coupled with some State accreditation
reform efforts as in enabling states to make some determination
about which industries within their state could provide those
short-term courses. I think that would be a good step in the
right direction to actually push it down to the State level,
that oversight role, in terms of quality assurance of these
programs.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. And let me ask Dr. Oakley. We have a
lot of suggestions on how to spend a lot of money on colleges,
and could you give us an idea of your priorities talking about
either free college, or free community college, double the Pell
Grant, loan discharge programs like public service loan
forgiveness, a borrower defense, or income contingent, or
discharging loans $10,000.00 or $50,000.00, or eliminate
interest on loans.
Could you tell us what we ought to be looking at first?
Mr. Oakley. Thank you Mr. Chair. First of all I mean all of
those issues are important issues to our students, but for us I
mean first and foremost allowing students to pay for the total
cost of attending college is critical, so that they can attend
full-time, so that they can complete their education and get
into the workforce.
So things like doubling Pell is critically important. Free
community college is certainly important, so that the funds
that you make available can be spent on the total cost of
attending college. And then finally I'd say supporting
colleges, community colleges in particular to reach out to
displaced workers, and helping get the skills that they need to
get back into the workforce.
Mr. Scott. We've heard a couple of comments about the
interest rates. What about significantly reducing, or even
eliminating interest. Why is the Federal Government charging
people interest? We ought to be subsidizing loans, not using it
as a profit center.
Mr. Oakley. Well I would certainly agree that a low or no
interest loans to our students who are struggling and who need
that support to get into the economy is a very important step
that Congress could take.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Zibel during the Obama
administration the Department of Education worked with the
State law enforcement agencies, especially attorneys general to
investigate and hold for-profit colleges accountable. Can you
talk about what happened during the last 4 years, and whether
or not executives at for-profit colleges should be held
personally liable for misconduct, or financial losses to
students and taxpayers?
Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. Look, the Department of
Education has to be working alongside State and other Federal
partners. This should not be an adversarial relationship, as I
think it has been over the past 4 years. In terms of
institutional enforcement I see what the Department of
Education did in the Corinthian colleges matter.
It's a real example of when the department worked alongside
the office of then Attorney General Kamala Harris to bring an
enforcement action, and take an action against one of the most
predatory actors.
When schools are closing, the department has to be working
with states to make sure that student needs are met in terms of
transfers, and transcript availability and basic needs around
housing.
So I think that is a real important step that the
department has to be taking going forward. In terms of personal
liability, I think I mentioned a little bit earlier,
absolutely. This is not a proposal that we have come up with.
This is not a proposal that must have been developed in the
past year or two, this is something that Congress put into the
Higher Education Act about 30 years ago.
And you know President George H.W. Bush signed it into law.
It was passed by a bipartisan Congress. And I think that the
concept is really simple. That when there are institutions that
cause losses to students and taxpayers, they should be held
accountable, and the individuals that directed that conduct
should be held accountable.
The Securities and Exchange Commission for example does it
even for for-profit college executives about protecting
investors. But for some reason the Department of Education has
not done that to protect students.
So this is about deterring misconduct. If you know that you
personally may have to write a check at the end of the day, you
are probably going to be a lot better of a steward of a
taxpayer and student funds.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. And thank you Madam Chair. And I want
to thank Keith for being with us today. He's certainly an
example of why we're here. And certainly, a shining example of
why the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence are so important. So
thank you Keith for being with us today.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much Mr. Chair.
I remind my colleagues that pursuant to committee practice,
materials for submission of the hearing record must be
submitted to the Committee Clerk within 14 days following the
last day of the hearing.
So by close of business on March 31, 2021 preferably in
Microsoft Word format. The materials submitted must address the
subject matter of the hearing. Only a Member of the
subcommittee, or an invited witness may submit materials for
inclusion in the hearing record.
Documents are limited to 50 pages each. Documents longer
than 50 pages will be incorporated into the record by way of an
internet link that you must provide to the Committee Clerk
within the required timeframe.
But please recognize that in the future that link may no
longer work. Pursuant to House rules and regulations, items for
the record must be submitted to the Clerk electronically by
email submissions to [email protected].
Members are encouraged to submit materials to the inbox
before the hearing, or during the hearing at the time the
Member makes the request. Again, I want to thank the witnesses
for their participation today. Keith you have made FIU, Miami-
Dade County Public Schools so proud.
We love you. 5,000 Role Models love you. We are 5,000. I
want to thank you, all of the witnesses. You were absolutely
stupendous. You did a great job at our committee today. Members
of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for each
of you and we ask the witnesses to please respond to those
questions in writing.
The hearing record will be held open for 14 days in order
to receive those responses. I remind my colleagues that
pursuant to committee practice witness questions for the
hearing record, must be submitted to the Majority Committee
Staff or Committee Clerk within 7 days. The questions submitted
must address the subject matter of the hearing.
We're now into closing statements. I recognize the
Distinguished Ranking Member for a closing statement, Dr.
Murphy who is a medical doctor.
Mr. Murphy. Thank you Ms. Representative Wilson. I want to
thank you especially, but also thank the committee Members and
the panelists. I think this was an excellent, excellent
meeting, and a lot of good issues discussed.
And I think there was a lot of lessons learned today. Both
Democrats and Republicans, I think we agree. We agree very
plainly that our postsecondary education system is in need of
reform. I mean I think that I can say that without any doubt.
Everybody knows that things have got a little bit out of hand.
Where the reform may be, may be in question, and difference
of opinion about and amongst the panelists and the committee,
but I think reform my all means is a consensus statement.
College costs are obviously way too high, and continue to
rise. We simply cannot continue the rise of college costs as
they are today. We are bankrupting our students. We are doing a
disservice to our taxpayers. We simply cannot allow that.
Graduation rates are low, honestly embarrassingly low.
I look at some institutions 6 year graduation rates are in
the teens, and that's not acceptable. We're doing a disservice
to those students, and again to the taxpayers. Employers are
finding recent graduates, college graduates, ill-prepared for
college success. And that burden rests solely on our educators.
If these kids are paying so much and mortgaging their
future, our educators have the burden of making sure that
they're prepared and that their money was well-spent. You don't
continue the status quo. You don't continue to pour money into
programs that have been proven failures. They're not failing
because of lack of money. They're failing because they were bad
and poorly designed programs.
Congress acted quickly last year in a bipartisan fashion to
help the sector deal with the pandemic. I was very, very proud
to be a Member of Congress at that time because we saw the
American people, and we saw institutions in America as needing
our help and we got together in a bipartisan manner.
Most recently, not so bipartisan, and that's in my opinion,
a real shame that that occurred. But now Congress has to turn
to long-term issues. The Higher Education Act is in dire need
of reform to better serve our students. The disaster, and I
spoke about this earlier, of the rise of administrative bloat
must be reversed.
We cannot continue pouring money into institutions that do
not use it toward education and preparing our students for
success and lifelong learning. Some policy solutions have been
presented at the hearing, eliminate the Grad Plus Program,
allow institutions to limit borrowing on a programmatic basis,
an entrance into the marketplace by enabling short-term Pell
Grants and reforming the accreditation system, and also--and a
recent topic, I think reforming the interest rates on these
loans. By all means, I think that needs to be done, especially
with what we're talking about with zero rates.
I don't think loan forgiveness. All you're doing is passing
that on to individuals who actually paid for their education,
who actually worked for their education, I don't think that is
appropriate.
Not all of the ideas are bipartisan, by all means. But I
want to encourage the subcommittee to work to find workable
solutions under Madam Wilson's leadership, and I have pledged
to work together in a bipartisan manner for us to actually do
what's great for our students and what's good for their
success. Thank you Madam Chairman I will yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you Doctor. I now
recognize myself for the purpose of making my closing
statement. I want to again thank our expert witnesses for
joining our subcommittee's first hearing of this Congress, and
for your testimonies.
Our discussion today made clear that the relief funding we
provided for higher education over the last year has been
critical to helping both institutions and students weather the
Coronavirus pandemic. But we were also reminded that both
Congress and the Biden administration have much work to do to
ensure underserved students are not left behind in our recovery
from this pandemic.
Securing relief funding alone is a disservice to the
students. We must take bold steps to strengthen student
protections and expand access to student aid, so that we build
back a better higher education system for everyone.
This committee has a great responsibility to not only help
our higher education system survive this pandemic, but also
ensure that all students across this Nation have access, if
they want it, to a college degree that leads to a rewarding
career. I look forward to working with my colleagues to achieve
this ultimate goal.
If there is no further business before this committee
without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. And thank
you so much for joining us.
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[Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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