Fri Apr 21 09:17:55 UTC 2023

lit/21888646.txt

@@ -2,7 +2,7 @@
 --- 21888646
 Aeneas' dripping shield edition
 >τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
->>21834540 →
+>>21834540
 
 >Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
 https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw
@@ -17,7 +17,7 @@ Whenever I read an intermediate text I have to keep looking up words and my arm
 Use Whitakers Words: https://latin-words.com/
 There is also a mobile app that has no ads and is offline. I believe you can also download it for desktop. Write out the new words on a sheet of paper. Every time you have to look up the same word twice, you will have the definition on a sheet of paper already. Put a start or asterisk next to words you keep looking up more than once. At the end of the day make flashcards only for the difficult words.
 --- 21888846
->>21886879 →
+>>21886879
 No one has the right to occupy another person's body without their consent.
 --- 21888951
 I'm interested in learning something, also I just stared down a deer whilst taking a piss. I'm thinking an hart for he wanted to charge me, the mangy fuck. My dick says sumerian but my other parts say do latin.
@@ -58,7 +58,7 @@ Input chads, have you humilitiated a grammar cuck today?
 >>21889539
 Of mistaking the modern version with the ancient one
 --- 21890213
->>21887027 →
+>>21887027
 I'm going to keep this brief. I don't know of any Jewish Aramaic younger than the Zohar, but I do know that it should exist. I spent the past hour going down a rabbit hole of Akkadian words preserved in NENA and nowhere else in Aramaic. I could try asking around, but it could be a bit tricky.
 --- 21890459
 >>21889467
@@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ I know French, Spanish and Italian and when I read Latin, I know not to get fool
 >The reason this sounds so stupid is because everyone remotely interested in OE knows modern already.
 But it still sounds absurd. Just apply the same logic to Latin or Greek. You wouldn't have someone who knows no Germanic languages study Germanic philology who knows no modern Germanic language. Imagine teaching a Chinese speaker Gothic before German or English. It's also the most natural order of progression to learn the modern language. Ancient languages are taught in a clinical and artificial fashion. Getting a feel for the modern language first makes the ancient one come more alive.
 --- 21891318
->>21887955 →
+>>21887955
 How does that work on 4chins?
 Like, we read a chapter by thread or what?
 --- 21891362
@@ -328,7 +328,7 @@ How is John Milton's Latin poetry?
 >There's a scansion practice website out there
 Link?
 --- 21894312
->>21881508 →
+>>21881508
 i would be interested in reading nepos or caesar. eutropius is fine too.
 --- 21894710
 >>21893751
@@ -1324,3 +1324,37 @@ https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Origo_Gentis_Langobardorum
 Can you provide a source on digamma also being /j/? I've heard and read about it being /w/, but I can't find anything about it being /j/. If you aren't mistaken (nor are the originators of this hypothesis), then that would be incredibly interesting from a linguistic perspective.
 --- 21934126
 What byzantine literature is worth reading?
+--- 21934633
+>>21933734
+>Can you provide a source on digamma also being /j/?
+that's what I'm also asking, I don't understand why the author used the same digamma sign for what should be some sign for the sound /j/ from what I understand, I may be wrong
+e.g in the first line he writes "πηλεϝιαδαϝ'" but while the first digamma is certainly /w/ from Πελεϝς, the second should be a /j/ from PIE *āsyo => Greek *ājo => āo => eō in the standard Iliad, hence the elision in Αχιλεϝος, so translitterated and in meter something like pē-lew-i-a-dā-ja-kʰi-lew-os
+--- 21934794
+>>21932825
+I think that's common for translations of poetry. It makes sense- it's part of the intended effect of the original.
+--- 21936068
+boomp
+--- 21936212
+>>21936068
+New thread soon anyway
+--- 21936251
+What should I make of the Aorist third person passive imperative in the first three lines of the Lord’s Prayer?
+--- 21936264
+>>21936251
+what do you mean? I mean it's certainly neat, since Latin itself translates it with a iussive subjunctive construction
+--- 21936282
+>>21936264
+In Greek, “hallowed be thy name” reads differently. What are some other ways to render this in English more accurately?
+--- 21936312
+>>21936282
+I guess "to hallow" could sound archaic in general but at the end of the day I don't think it is less accurate than e.g "to be(!) sanctified" since ἁγιάζω essentially means that, to make(-iζω) ἅγιος(holy, sacred) and IIRC as a verb it's wholly biblical and post biblical, not found in previous literature
+--- 21936675
+>>21936312
+especially considering that 'sanctified' is how it's translated in romance languages (french sanctifie, spanish sanctificado)
+--- 21936990
+NOVUM
+>>21936988 →
+>>21936988 →
+>>21936988 →
+--- 21936992
+.

lit/21902612.txt

@@ -899,3 +899,103 @@ Finally, I'll add that your type of retoric mostly reveals a intrinsecally anxio
 --- 21934424
 >>21912928
 It's been years since I saw a smart Marxist post online, this might be worth interacting with and arguing with later
+--- 21934480
+>>21928620
+All these things are in the context of Spengler, nonreader. The idea of Faustian man is a Spenglerian invention. Nihilism in connection with the domination of money is a Spenglerian analysis.
+--- 21934523
+>>21934424
+>smart Marxist
+>historically illiterate "wall street funded the Reich" nonsense
+There's an essay on this myth in Henry Turner's "Nazism and the Third Reich"
+--- 21934545
+>>21934404
+Anon. they're just proving >>21902717 anon's point by deriding him as "unoriginal". They're fundamentally trapped in a linear and progressive sense of "time", so everything needs to be NEW FLASHY GLAM instead of actually useful, and truthful. It's typical bugman mentality which has never truly tried to glimpse at the Eternal, because if so they would be destroyed.
+--- 21934555
+>>21912928
+>he was germcuck with British cum in his brain like Nietzsche
+Have you read Spengler? He was very much against England.
+--- 21934557
+>>21913460
+No, they're very much opposites.
+--- 21934597
+>>21934545
+>NEW FLASHY GLAM
+try not to have an emotional reaction and scream libtard: how about abolition of slavery, or of public torture&executions, or constant wars of conquest because the strong shall do as they will; or the creation if institutions where weaklings without connections/capital like Spengler or Nietzsche could be paid to be teachers or publicists, instead of tilling the soil for a local lord? 
+Really, all meaningless bugman nonsense? Serious question
+--- 21934606
+>>21934597
+>slavery
+>public torture/execution
+>constant wars of conquest
+>creation of institutions for weaklings
+
+literally all of those exist today under the liberal paradigm, but i'll invite you to play dumb and make a fool of yourself.
+--- 21934609
+>>21934606
+oh ok you can't even properly read, nevermind then
+--- 21934614
+>>21934609
+Yes, run along.
+--- 21934712
+>>21934597
+>how about abolition of slavery
+technically happened in western europe since even before the fall of the roman empire under autoritctarian dictatorships
+>or of public torture&executions
+We still do them. We executed members of the Nazi Party and Saddam Hussein in public, and both were extensively and gruelysomely tortured beforehand, too.
+>or constant wars of conquest because the strong shall do as they will; 
+war casualities per capita progressively increased. We have a war going on in the european continent at the moment decided by two strong suporpowers in which Europe is paying a hefty price with nothing in return and if you ever saw the videos, people in Ukraine and russian soldiers are subiecting each others to amounts of violence and pain that disturbs the mind and that was actively discouraged by both military officers and religious institutions at the time with practical results. we have statistics and reports on deaths, executions, even ransoms in european wars during the middle ages and the amount of raw suffering was incredibly inferior.
+And no, everyone was ransomed, not just nobles. Nobles actually had a way higher chance to be executed than commoners. See for example Corradino of Svevia and what happened to him.
+>r the creation if institutions where weaklings without connections/capital like Spengler or Nietzsche could be paid to be teachers or publicists, 
+If we take into consideration european societies for the whole course of their histories, even during the paleolithic and the neolithic, let alone the middle ages, there was a place for the intellectual types. Shaman, healers, doctors, monks. Even during the heights of authoritarism in the Roman empire you could make an hefty sum by being a private tutor. That's assuming the intellectual or intelligent type wouldn't be drawn out to other professions (for example, how Nietzsche always showed a desire to be a soldier). Your vision of history is romanticized and idealistic
+--- 21934716
+>>21934523
+That's a smart marxist for you, he at least had the intellectual honesty and courage to interact with Spengler's work. You don't want to see how a dumb marxist thinks and talks, then
+--- 21934791
+>>21912928
+>That what the 3rd reich was in the end, a berserker state funded by wallstreet to end revolutionary socialism
+I'm not even a commie and that line hits hard
+--- 21934963
+My biggest problem with Spengler is that his cultural pessimism is simply too crushing. In his worldview, there are only a few things worth dedicating your life to now and if one accepts it, it can be difficult for them psychologically.
+--- 21934969
+>>21934963
+I think it can also add to depression and procrastination. I can imagine, for example, of a young and talented, but frustrated artist, who foregoes really pursuing painting because they read Spengler, were convinced that art is dead, and are afraid to spend their lives pursuing something that’s dead. So they don’t, and they spend years, maybe their whole lives not painting.
+--- 21934976
+>>21934716
+Oh how droll, as if the right ever gives a fair reading and critique of leftist thinkers and doesn't resort to lies, racial slurs, and schizophrenic conspiracy.
+--- 21935909
+>>21902612 (OP)
+OP here, wrong pic sorry
+--- 21936040
+>>21934712
+>technically happened in western europe
+Source? Never heard of slavery being abolished in the roman empire. Later it was abolished among European Christians, and pretty much remained so. Then this Christian idea expanded to an universal human right. Today there might be slavery-adjacent practices in shithole countries, but the concept is universally reviled and even the most anti-western nations would hide and deny such practices. This in itself is progress.
+
+>We still do them
+Two examples separated by more than half a century. And how exactly were Nazis "gruesomely tortured"? 
+Torture in the wake of the Iraq war was met with enormous public outrage. Back in the good old days it was a common occurence, and source of free entertainment. 
+
+>We have a war going on
+Again, something that would be viewed as a normal spat among kings in the past now causes outrage throughout the world, and enormous assistance to the victim. Russia btw is a great example of resisting social progress no matter what, and turning into an Orwellian caricature because of it.
+
+>there was a place for the intellectual types
+Sure, for the tiny percentage that could somehow uncover their intellectual talents without universal schooling, wide availability of knowledge, the healthcare to survive the first years of life, the production capacities to enable this luxurious division of labor where one can spend a lifetime researching mongolian basketweaving and be quite well-off...
+
+Sure, my vision of history is idealistic in Hegels sense, all experience supports it much better than the Spenglerian morphology. The latter is much more "romantic", as evidenced by all the anons feeling sweet melancholy about it
+--- 21936540
+>>21936040
+>the concept is universally reviled 
+It's been turned into (barely) subsistence wages and brutal conditions used to mine the materials and manufacture the device you're using to post.
+>Torture in the wake of the Iraq war was met with enormous public outrage.
+Three words: "enhanced interogation techniques."
+>enormous assistance to the victim
+When it's in the West's interests. I'll bet you weren't even aware that Sudan is about to tip into a civil war.
+>Russia btw is a great example of resisting social progress no matter what
+Sounds like you're spitting propaganda. Is Iran a bastion of social progress because they lead the world in transgender surgeries?
+>for the tiny percentage that could somehow uncover their intellectual talents without universal schooling
+The university system was developing and it's unfair to look upon it with modern biases. Besides, modern education has been commodified to the point where call centre jobs require a diploma and the democratization of universities has lead to a decrease in quality. 
+
+NTA btw.
+--- 21938060
+>>21929107
+>2000-2400 is the collapse
+Man I can't even imagine the status quo making it to 2050 at this rate. An empire of weakness and gat sex and lies, run by psychopathic talmudic bankers, cowardly criminal bureaucrats, spiteful communist mutants, and out-of-touch celebrities, trying to coerce a zero-trust non-society of demoralized, dumbed down, divided, dysgenic, demotivated mass of people from completely incompatible cultural and genetic backgrounds into helping them accomplish vague goals nobody is interested in with insultingly bad propaganda. How can this judeo-satanic landfill planet keep chugging for that long?

lit/21909823.txt

@@ -348,8 +348,28 @@ Still gotta suck it up and submit that to traditional mags.
 --- 21933405
 >>21933357
 ok :'(
---- 21933406
-I know you check these threads I’m losing my mind stop doing this I can’t get calm why are you doing this the silent treatment is making everything worse
 --- 21934383
 >>21909823 (OP)
 dam they still putting these out. Dope.
+--- 21934786
+>>21934383
+Thanks. We're trying our best to continue making videos.
+--- 21935783
+UNREAL PRESS SRE KING AMONG MEN AND WE ARE NOT WORTHY
+--- 21936463
+>>21933186
+>>21933406
+Are you his girlfriend or something?
+--- 21936730
+>>21909823 (OP)
+I consider myself an... inconsistent &amp reader. I'd like to try writing reviews of previous material for an upcoming issue.
+--- 21937157
+>>21936730
+You want to review writing from &amp and have those reviews in a new issue of &amp? That would be very strange, I think. Especially for bad reviews. I don't think any publication would be interested in printing bad reviews of their own work. And publishing only good reviews wouldn't look too good either. I think the whole idea is weird, but then again I don't know much about that kind of stuff.
+--- 21937178
+>>21937157
+>I don’t know much about that kind of stuff
+ then why offer your opinion?
+--- 21937836
+>>21936730
+Yeah I’m into it. &amp will print anything you give them

lit/21912608.txt

@@ -2073,3 +2073,110 @@ Any anons ever read Leon dierx or know any good translations of him?
 Aching balls filled
 Swollen urges released
 White creamy load
+--- 21934809
+Rumbling hard
+Filled with a deep desire
+Boy pregnant again
+--- 21934948
+Trying to write a love poem in-universe, from the point of a woman to a man. What are some good female poets to read for background and style?
+Naturalism/pastoralism is also welcome.
+should be more old-fashioned, nothing too new.
+--- 21935027
+I'm having trouble understanding the difference between multisyllabic words and their effect on the tension and speed of a line. I understand that we naturally speed up to reach the next stressed syllable, I understand that we speed up on a promoted syllable, I understand that monosyllables slow us down, but can someone illustrate or explicate to me what I should be hearing?
+
+For example:
+
+The battle ceases as the sun declines
+And hands collect the vestiges of war
+
+How do you scan for speed and tension? I'm not certain, but I would say is that it speeds up between battle and ceases, ceases and as, as and the, son and declines, hands and collect, vestiges and of? I'm not really sure how I would analyze this for tension though.
+--- 21935086
+>>21935027
+It’s not so simplistic, monosyllabic and multi-syllabics can both be used to slow and speed effects but yes in general Anglo Saxon monosyllabic words have a kind of grinding slowness, you don’t scan for slowness or speed you have to do that manually by ear, here is pope demonstrating skillfully the conception you’re working under. 
+
+“ True ease in writing comes from art, not chance, 
+As those move easiest who have learned to dance. 
+'Tis not enough no harshness gives offense, 
+The sound must seem an echo to the sense: 
+Soft is the strain when Zephyr gently blows, 
+And the smooth stream in smoother numbers flows; 
+But when loud surges lash the sounding shore, 
+The hoarse, rough verse should like the torrent roar; 
+When Ajax strives some rock's vast weight to throw, 
+The line too labors, and the words move slow; 
+Not so, when swift Camilla scours the plain, 
+Flies o'er the unbending corn, and skims along the main. 
+Hear how Timotheus' varied lays surprise, 
+And bid alternate passions fall and rise!”
+
+Notice “ strives some rock's vast weight to throw, ” sounds so heavy, harsh, laboring, 
+
+But notice how alliteration and BALANCE of multisyllabic to monosyllabic creates such smoothness
+
+“ Not so, when swift Camilla scours the plain, ”
+
+the focus and weight of 
+“The battle ceases as the sun declines“ should be a normative cadence until “as the” which creates a sort of slow down to mark the following two syllables as being of importance. 
+
+I would argue the speed of the 
+“ And hands collect the vestiges of war” is very balanced, so it shouldn’t be said overly quick nor have much slow Emphasis, but yeah again this is a question of ear and not something a scanning method can so easily do, you have to be conscious of this, since again there’s times when monosyllabics can create speed.
+
+For example the monosyllabics in this stanza I wrote, I think clearly do showcase speed THROUGH the high mono level.
+
+to ride with monstrous pride through pinèd copses wild,
+to crush the grape and seize the bird and eat its child, 
+to run and rape the stone by force by strike defiled,
+to plunge the deep and see leviathan be riled!
+--- 21935698
+>>21935086
+>normative cadence until “as the” which creates a sort of slow down
+But how?
+>“ And hands collect the vestiges of war” is very balanced
+And why not line 1?
+
+>question of ear and not something a scanning method can so easily do, you have to be conscious of this, since again there’s times when monosyllabics can create speed.
+
+But what causes it? I know normal scanning isn't suited to this, but it's a regular phenomenon then we should mark it. I understand your second line takes on the first's speed, but how do you alter it faster or for slower? Is there a difference between an iamb like declines vs a trochee like battles? Does the phonetic information add further complexity?
+--- 21936627
+Alone in my room
+An encroaching sense of doom
+Craving a quick coom
+--- 21937392
+Anyone interested in a poem about the Spanish-American War?
+--- 21937431
+>>21913630
+Fag
+--- 21937440
+>>21912608 (OP)
+I hate you 
+All you revolting
+Slimy fags 
+Never have you 
+Impressed
+Me
+Fuck you
+Fuck you
+Fuck you
+--- 21937578
+>>21937392
+Spics got fucked
+America won
+Cuban bitches crave Big White Men
+--- 21937671
+when it's over
+i will be thrown
+as a 2003 nokia phone
+into a landfill in indonesia
+i lay in the waste and decay alone
+you cannot recycle silicon
+--- 21937867
+>>21913630
+faggot
+--- 21937877
+>>21912922
+>pin you against the glass
+sounds like a literal sexual act and out of place, to my ear
+>pin you under glass
+makes more sense anyway
+--- 21938054
+I'm just here to salute to the OP keeps these threads alive through sick and thin

lit/21917809.txt

@@ -815,3 +815,116 @@ He isnt white.
 --- 21934431
 >>21932739
 creativity was never a too big thing, most people always were peasants without an internal monologue (as am i)
+--- 21934666
+>AND THEN A WHITE GUY JUMPED OUT AND KILLED HIM
+Really? That's how it ends? That's it?
+--- 21935108
+>>21918550
+>American
+>White
+--- 21935132
+>>21921958
+>5 hours
+No, thanks.
+--- 21935152
+>>21924376
+That is definitely bait, likely posted by yourself.
+--- 21935158
+>>21923765
+>this guy who might be a pseud
+I don't know if he's a pseud, but he gives me incredibly bad vibes. His eyes are completely empty. Kind of reminds me to that freak Thought Slime.
+--- 21935248
+>>21917809 (OP)
+>Be me
+>Hear of Blood Meridian with the "War is my 'Bidness" quote
+>Hmm, funny meme book, lemme read wiki outline to the end
+>Big white man representing pseud writers cynicism towards humanity rapes cowboy on a stool
+Oh okay.
+--- 21935275
+>>21933114
+A view in the social media world is watching a video for 5 seconds. The fanbase of this retarded e-celeb appears to be people with down syndrome who anime pfps.
+--- 21935386
+>>21935275
+I see them as kind of like Tolkien's orcs. In the same way that the orcs were once men and elves who have been corrupted and turned grotesque, these are millennials and zoomers who are clearly able to comprehend complex information, and they were once able to read and decipher this information by themselves but social media has eliminated their ability to read and think critically and thus they can only rely on memes and gay youtube videos for information.
+--- 21935388
+SowhatishetheJudgeof?
+--- 21935565
+>>21929795
+I didn't deny he was complaining about antisemitism. I denied he "literally cried" about it. Because he does literally tear up in the video (or one of his other Christian videos, I forget) but it's not over antisemitism.
+--- 21935575
+>>21917854
+>one of the non-canonical biblical books talked bad about jews
+But the canonical books talk bad about the jews too.
+--- 21935578
+>>21930016
+Aside from what other anons said, there's also the fact that the real-life Judge Holden was a child molester/murderer as well.
+--- 21935580
+I prefer this video
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5o7amSiHyU [Embed]
+
+Never figured McCarthy was a Spenglerian
+--- 21935585
+>>21917809 (OP)
+I thought he was going to discuss about the themes of the novel, but he's just retelling it. Why would anyone watch this instead of just reading the book?
+--- 21935594
+>>21935580
+>Never figured McCarthy was a Spenglerian
+Wasn't Spengler name-dropped in Stella Maris? I seem to recall McCarthy was kind of dismissive of him.
+--- 21935677
+>>21926399
+>to deny that Christ was jewish is to deny the old testament and the teachings of Christ himself
+But jews didn't even exist during Jesus' times. There were proto-jews that followed the oral tradition, which later became the Talmud, but everything in the text points out that Jesus was very much not one of them.
+--- 21935685
+>>21935677
+A Jew is a member of the Tribe of Judah. Jesus was a descendent of King David (who was of the Tribe of Judah), which is how he fulfills the messiah prophecy and has a legitimate claim to the title of "King of the Jews". So Jesus absolutely must be a Jew, otherwise the Bible is wrong.
+--- 21935702
+>>21935677
+I bet this guy thinks the English exist because of Locke
+--- 21935757
+>>21935580
+Your content is alright. but you need to improve your clickbait and thumbnail game.
+--- 21935814
+>>21926784
+--- 21936146
+game theory the judge is aleister crowley
+--- 21936331
+>>21917809 (OP)
+Aaand another great book being destroyed by a youtube video "essay"
+--- 21936337
+>>21917918
+so heckin true Dante did le epic marvel crossover
+--- 21936448
+this is cultural appropriation
+--- 21936682
+>>21936448
+As a frequenter of /x/, I can assure you that Wendigoon visits 4chan all the time.
+--- 21936700
+>>21936682
+He just seems to have problems staying there.
+--- 21936710
+>>21926286
+Bet you thought you sounded hard when you quoted whatever faggot book/movie you stole that from
+--- 21936713
+>>21936682
+Hey Wenditroon, if you are read this lose weight
+--- 21936725
+>>21936713
+Hello sirs.
+--- 21936737
+10 chapters in and don't get what the big deal is about the Judge yet. He's a barely side character so far.
+--- 21936882
+>>21936737
+You'll get it. He gains much more of a presence as the book goes on.
+--- 21936969
+>>21935594
+>>21935580
+McCarthy is a fan of Decline of the west, but not Spengler in general.
+--- 21936994
+>>21923765
+>everything mysterious about the universe is actually explained by le quantum physics
+why are midwits like this?
+--- 21937099
+>>21923527
+Have you heard how Southern he is?
+--- 21937595
+uhh chudbros.. this book has already been cancelled

lit/21917939.txt

@@ -230,3 +230,54 @@ Do any stories ever reach contemporaries of Alexander the Great?
 What's up with Samson and Delilah? Why did he tell her the source of his strength when she had proven to be a Phillistine agent?
 --- 21934233
 Why did Uzza get smited for touching the ark?
+--- 21934514
+>>21934160
+In terms of history there is a gap between Nehemiah (450BC) and the Maccabees (170BC).
+--- 21934529
+We finally have the first mention of Satan in the Bible. At least in this KJV.
+Chronicles
+>21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
+21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
+>21:3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing
+
+So what exactly was Satan doing to make God made with numbering?
+--- 21934531
+>>21934529
+*make God mad
+--- 21935833
+>>21934200
+Samson is brute force that is tamed by marriage or his spouses I can't remember. He is the Enkidu of the Bible. He tells his first spouse the solution of his riddle and Delilah the secret of his strength because both of them can't keep their mouth shout. Women are a beast of burden. What you have also to consider is that Samson as Nazirite has to follow some very strict rules like don't cut you hair but he violates them like when he touched the dead lion as he isn't supposed to touch dead objects. Finally, his last act is that he kills the elite of his enemy more or less fulfilling the will of God.
+
+>>21934529
+You have this passage twice first in samuel then in chronicles. In samuel it says that God made David do it and in chronicles it was changed to Satan. What's strange about it is that they have counted soldiers all the time starting with Moses.
+--- 21935944
+>>21935833
+There's a subtext that if he hadn't acted in an unclean way, the story may have taken a different turn. He eats honey out of a lion, grabs a moist jawbone. I smell some light Deuteronomist intervention in parts of Judges. 
+
+I also think the Adversary is a very complex figure to parse through, what with how little mention he has in earlier books.
+--- 21935976
+Where's a good epub of the kjv bible Preferably with apocrypha but I'm cool without for sake of readability.
+--- 21937040
+>>21935976
+https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=EE7DCCC60A0078256D762362F3AD097B
+--- 21937100
+>>21935944
+he's a weird one, yeah. i know the consensus among scholars is he's supposed to be effectively god's prosecutor, but i don't think this 
+sounds at all like a conversation between a superior and a subordinate:
+
+>One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
+>Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
+the satan here sounds more like a free agent who occasionally appears in the heavenly domain for his own amusement.
+--- 21937147
+Deuteronomy was beautiful. The certainty of victory and blessing if you will but obey the law is inspiring.
+--- 21937448
+>>21934529
+>first time Satan appears is to convince someone to make a census
+What is the significance of this?
+Did Adam go around doing a census of animals and maybe doing a census of men is bad?
+--- 21937558
+>>21937040
+Forgot to thank you
+--- 21937644
+>>21937448
+it was just a superstition dude. censuses were typically done before war. people die in war. they act like the census was responsible.

lit/21920011.txt

@@ -871,3 +871,27 @@ I do believe that and that’s why I donated sperm in the west and plan on bleac
 --- 21934452
 >>21923631
 Most incels wouldn't refer to themselves as such, i believe. I don't have a gf but i don't consider myself an incel
+--- 21934491
+>>21920031
+>social animal becomes distraught over lack of social fulfillment
+--- 21935970
+>>21920479
+Lmao baldy coping
+--- 21936366
+>>21934328
+No. I am not here to entertain you, cunt. You get what you get.
+--- 21936373
+>>21920011 (OP)
+Written in 2011
+
+Probably he finished this book as I was writing City of Singles, when I had noticed how much dating had changed and how some men were knee-deep in poontang and unable to find a mate while other guys were just starting to not even get laid at all. Being in incel was pretty much unheard of in the 00's but after the smartphone the entire world changed.
+--- 21936378
+why don't they just pay a hooker, it wouldn't solve much but it would at least tick some boxes
+--- 21936592
+>>21920073
+If you've ever had sex, you've disproven your own implicit assertion as actions always carry more weight than any words.
+--- 21936637
+>>21936378
+Let's be honest, it would solve a lot. Women can smell if you're a regular sex haver, and hookers are a lifehack to get over that initial hurtle from mildly nervous/awkward to banging multiple girls.
+
+Women seem to want men who are already successful/charming/sexually active/rich/famous/whatever. There are lots of good men with unrealized potential but foids want the finished product and don't want to think about the effort it takes to get there.

lit/21921346.txt

@@ -826,3 +826,63 @@ This is looking like b8, but anyway why would you ever read Murakami in English
 --- 21933977
 >>21933971
 I read Murakami in English because I had already read him in my first language. It made it easier to get used to English books.
+--- 21934810
+>>21921454
+really like that stalin painting. Would like something similar for my own study. Shame about the tranny weebtoys - you were so close.
+--- 21936098
+>>21934807
+some good ones in der
+--- 21937185
+>>21934807
+Which Mein Kampf is the best?
+--- 21937238
+who am i
+--- 21937304
+>>21937238
+>"School"
+probably underage is what you are
+--- 21937327
+>>21921376
+30+ white dude tries to act more cultured than he really is by buying modern leather bound editions of books
+
+possibly repressed homosexual who has had sex with one or two ladies
+--- 21937494
+>>21937185
+Manheim's is somber, sentimental, maudlin. James Murphy's is austere, confrontational, bold, and being commissioned by the NSDAP, it's likely closest in tone to what Hitler had in mind. Ford's is journalistic, conversational, novelistic. All are quite different, likely owing to the translator's personal biases and interpretations, which makes them all worth reading.
+--- 21937524
+Still have a book or two I want to be Rid of but I am mostly happy with the progress
+--- 21937529
+>>21937524
+American White
+25
+Straight
+Have had sex with a few partners
+--- 21937549
+>>21937494
+What about the Stalag edition?
+--- 21937550
+>>21937529
+That is mostly true. 
+
+what makes you think that?
+--- 21937584
+>>21937549
+Haven't read that one. Read the Manheim version first and then looked into others. There are so many translations it's hard to distinguish what you're looking for. It would be best to learn German and read the original. Looks like the Stalag edition may be superior though.
+>>21937549
+I've been there bro.
+--- 21937897
+>>21937524
+White dude in his early 20s with no defined taste, mostly taking whatever this board shitposts about as recommendations. Leaning towards hetero and if you lost your virginity, it was probably by accident.
+--- 21937923
+>>21937897
+This is mostly wrong.
+
+Though I do take recommendations from this board. I have little serious literary recommendations from the people in my life. I want to understand specific things that interest me and I really have no interest in following specific ideas like "start with the Greeks" regardless of the fact that it sounds like good advice. 
+Maybe that makes me a fool. Its all I've got.
+--- 21938047
+Relativly new to reading.
+--- 21938072
+Suggestions?
+--- 21938075
+>>21938047
+Nice. I hope you keep at it.

lit/21921830.txt

@@ -630,3 +630,238 @@ Go on...
 >>21931432
 
 Someone one else finally understands that height is the single most important PHYSICAL (read: not overall) male attractiveness trait. Not face, not dick size, not muscles. 4chan is filled with terminally online idiots who refuse to understand this truth (they are filtered through what the see on their screens) and who lack RL going-outside experience points to realize its basic truth. Heightism=promotions and pussy. Everyone intrinsically trusts them.
+--- 21934646
+>>21933310
+that would quite off-topic.
+--- 21934679
+>>21933310
+>off topic
+but the brain disease of judeo-christio-slam comes from tribal savages who mutilated their own infants penises, rendering them with severe psychosis and sexual hang-ups, and the inability to enjoy sexual intimacy properly.
+--- 21934796
+>>21933137
+>Not that anon, but according to Spengler genetics is just the biological realization of the innate race-ideal, which is itself the realization of a certain primordial image.
+Okay but you do realize from a scientific perspective that's nonsense, right?
+--- 21934804
+>>21933422
+This is completely refuted by a simple experiment. Make a two tinder profiles, a Chad face manlet, and an average face lanklet watch the pussy roll in for the former and look at the 3 landwhale matches of the latter.
+--- 21934991
+>>21934796
+>from a scientific perspective
+It's not non-sense, but it's a neutralizing statement of no consequence; as since "race ideal" is specific to the "race" (we mean ethnos) then this changes from person to person, a West African [random tribe here] individual will be attracted to the ideal of his or her own [random tribe here] and will consider [other random tribes here] to be anywhere on a scale from hideous orges to disinteresting, even if to [alien tribe here] the difference between all of those tribes is not visually obvious.
+
+>>21933137
+>This ethos is what allows them to timidly accept a "sexual marketplace" whereby women can freely and democratically choose to sleep with a vast number of her "peers". For the semite, man is created in the image of God, women in the image of man, so women must be inferior and their natural and highest place is one of absolute submission to their husband, as their husband must submit to God.
+Disgusting barbarians.
+
+This, although wrong in other ways, is probably more the norm,
+> women being either grotesque parodies of the supreme man or a vessel by which a man's seed can be carried to fruition
+although there's no real evidence of this bit occurring, 
+ and which should be owned as property.
+
+Actually, a point hardly ever taken into account is homogeneity in this part,
+>highest beauty in the form of a beautiful 
+if your entire city looks the same then 'beauty' isn't measured by looks (since everyone looks the same, apart from hideous creatures like Socrates) but by character, hence Virtue.
+
+>>21931922
+>>>21931736 (You)
+>Genetics, sure, but genetics how in particular? What genes?
+I think this answers the question.
+
+i.e. it's ethnos, as the same as two creatures of the same ethnos or ethos just having far more in common in their thinking and disposition, shaping their character and habits.
+
+You could say that it's a matter of caste in that the kshatriya (soldier) has very little in common with the vaishya (merchant) that could sustain a functional household and that inter-caste "relationships" would be little more than temporary infatuations; the ideation upon the mystery of a stranger (which vanishes when the person is no longer a stranger) or the artificially created 'illicitness' of flouting the caste tradition (which may be more long-lasting but is ultimately less productive as the inclination of two inter-caste would pull their household in the opposite directions).
+
+Even if people in the formerly Christian European principalities haven't thought in these terms since the reign of Diocletian an arguably never did before that either, it explains a lot of the chaos and angst between the sexes and the haphazard ideological modes of maintaining a bare-minimum sense of a relationship, which is unhealthy for the children of such a household... which is no household at all. 
+
+In short, it's kind of moot - but it is a deep anchor in our psyche as it is, by and large, how we're optimally built to function.
+--- 21935087
+>>21923119
+"parerga und paralipomena" can be answer to any "recommend me a book on...". 
+Schopenhauer really explained every aspect of existance and reality like we are 6 year olds
+--- 21935103
+>>21924462
+>but your honor, my client said "in minecraft", which means that he only wanted it to happen virtually
+--- 21935126
+>>21935103
+objection, the prosecution is misgendering my client purposefully.
+--- 21935154
+>>21934796
+Only if you deny any kind of psychological agency in mate selection. What came first, a peacock's feathers or the attraction by peacock's to such feathers? Obviously action presupposes intention, so the idealist conception of race is correct.
+
+>>21934991
+>if your entire city looks the same then 'beauty' isn't measured by looks (since everyone looks the same, apart from hideous creatures like Socrates) but by character, hence Virtue.
+Not correct, since Alcibiades was considered beautiful by all and virtuous by none, while Socrates was considered virtuous by most and beautiful by none. It's also incorrect that these cities were homogeneous, they were filled with merchants from across the Mediterranean, but there was a differentiation between citizen and outsider which doesn't exist in modern nation states (where 'citizen' is determined by geographic location rather than familial line). Xenophon clearly describes exogenous marriage in his Anabasis as well. The obsession with homogeneity comes from the real lack of a race-ideal in modern nation states. Defining yourself by a flag, or a geographical area, or a map, as opposed to a 'father of the race' to which you can trace descent. In tightly bound tribes and clans in fact, exogenous marriage is actually the norm, since inbreeding would otherwise present health problems.
+--- 21935327
+>>21921830 (OP)
+The only passable white woman has pink hair.
+I hate Clown World.
+--- 21935333
+>>21921830 (OP)
+--- 21935353
+>>21935327
+I'd fuck all of them but they all have "30ish face and neck." I'm so tired of that look. Just seeing a bitch with a wrinkly chihuahua neck makes me think of how she's going to disappoint in a hundred other ways but still have the personality of her 21 year old self.
+--- 21935356
+>>21932202
+should I even bother doing a early life check?
+She's gotta be a kike.
+--- 21935361
+>>21922241
+two possibilities
+>small penis
+>impotent
+impotence happens to married men under stress, it doesnt mean no erection necessarily just a hostility to sex with wifey
+--- 21935364
+>>21927546
+this guy.....
+--- 21935383
+>>21930364
+>>21930366
+this makes women sound more intelligent to me. it sounds like men just think in terms of abstract "principles" they apply to every situation, instead of taking each situation on its own terms. men tend to generalize and this sort of separates them from reality.
+--- 21935955
+>>21921830 (OP)
+talk to more women, you'll thank me for it someday
+--- 21936029
+>>21935154
+>while Socrates was considered virtuous by most
+Nobody thought Socrates was Virtuous, anon, he was despised for his political activities and ordered to suicide by popular vote.
+
+But the profundity 'of' Alcibiades was in large part this very revelation where beauty and virtue were catastrophically shown not to align; that a 'good bloodline' would betray his people or be capable of error, hence the blame of it on Socrates who surely "misled" his student. In this sense the homogeneity I mean is like... to point to the statues that have been around for centuries and then realize how much some people resemble them and some people look nothing like them, this was probably moreso the 'beauty' that was being considered because the 'beautiful' people were considered to descend from "gods" or great ancestors, etc., which is more solidified in the roman culture; "you are you grand father, your father etc.," - whereas after Alcibiades when this notion collapsed for the Greeks they began to think of actual virtue, which had been an alien concept to them prior to this and they were already centuries behind other civilizations.
+
+>Xenophon
+Xenophon was a foreigner as well, it ought be reminded. But even there we can see the physical similarity in the faces of their statues by contrast to later persons, this is as much as can be given to homogeneity - as Xenophon would be alien to someone who, from our perspective, looked exactly like him. IF, as I suggested, that was the level of homogeneity then the notions of 'beauty' would be forced to be defined by Virtue and character and not by physical appearance alone.
+
+It's even worthy recalling that the word 'ugly' traces back its roots to "stands out", or prominent, and there's nothing inherently bad attached to that notion either, except that from the later negative association it shows that "to be ugly" was/is to "not look like us",and is proclaimed by the speaker; a proclamation made, unwittingly, from his or her own ethnic culture.
+--- 21936078
+>>21935383
+>it sounds like men just think in terms of abstract "principles" they apply to every situation, instead of taking each situation on its own terms. men tend to generalize and this sort of separates them from reality.
+You're referring to logic, I think.
+
+You know what, that's a good comment. It's not like Men "don't" think in terms of hyperpersonalization or erroneous thinking, it's just that Men recognize this as being a trait schizophrenia (probably they'd give some other colloquialism) and are encouraged not to do it.
+
+Believing that the world exists around you, for you, and that it must conform to your narrative (lit. all revolves around you) for example in the manner of a youtube personality or celebrity, was correctly called sluggish schizophrenia in the USSR, and is an annoying trait which Men don't tolerate in Men but 'tolerate' in Women - largely because they think Women are completely mentally incompetent and cannot learn.
+
+But ........ that is a good comment .... reality is reality; the bigger picture, the effects from the causes of things, etc., reality at the most baseline comprehension is the grande narrative (lifted from fiction and perpetuated usually by propaganda most often) where actual reality is pushed back in favor of fantasy. A Woman doesn't think, for example, about the cost of items or about the slave shops that her possessions came from, or the wastefulness of useless purchase because none of that stuff is "real".
+--- 21936093
+>>21935383
+Well how else is knowledge and insight supposed to be increased if you don’t observe a new phenomena and relate it to the old? Yes you may “feel” like you have an understanding of something new but if it’s an invalid system of input and output you’re just gonna be stumbling in the dark whenever the newest iteration of a similar yet slightly different situation comes about.
+--- 21936102
+>>21935154
+2/2 also,
+just an after-thought re: roma invicta,
+
+If the statues and coins are anything to go by, then the Romans had a far clearer comprehension of 'virtue' and not 'race', because they were surrounded by barbarians who were identical to them physically in their faces, but totally alien (even feral) in their character.
+
+The statue of the dying gaul, for example, facially resembles Gaius Marius but simply has a mustache and spiked hair.
+
+eehhhhhhhhh we're kind of drifting from the topic, although ha we're speaking of 'beauty', so as far as a cliche of a woman is concerned, this is the only topic that could ever matter.
+
+laughing_god.jpg
+--- 21936105
+>>21936078
+>Men recognize this as being a trait schizophrenia
+3/3 unless it's fed to them as a grande narrative in some religious or ideological framework, of course, then they'll happily be insane and consider it a mark of high learning.
+--- 21936125
+i see women together with ordinary looking guys every godamn day on the street. hard to square with all the redpill shit.
+--- 21936128
+>>21923162
+Best post in the thread. Incel's will never be right with their bullshit
+--- 21936152
+>>21936093
+I disagree that it's new or old; rather a constant. Behavior can be observed in constants which trace back thousands of years; the same people doing the same thing in 700BC as today, for example, would be a constant. White people north of the danube riding in carriages with no muscle mass or intelligence and being led by Women, for example.
+
+If a Woman, as I tend to agree with Esther Vilar, simply has her better senses atrophied from the enablement of sex-mad Men and other Women around her, then it's not hard to see how the baby-state of mind would persist until it was too late to really change course. I think it can be, of course, but the outcome is specific on the conditions.
+
+Women raised by single-parent Fathers are noticabley much better off, intellectually, due to the removal of stagnant influence from an already socialized Woman.
+
+The dynamic is ridiculous, though. I think if Women truly were brought into the light of actual reason they'd immediately see how much power they hold in society, perhaps it's the unwillingness to take on the responsibility of stewardship that comes down to the denialism on the part of Women to really do anything with that power, other than collect the equivalent of pogs and pieces of coloured fabrics with that societal power.
+--- 21936159
+>>21928802
+What do you expect from a board that worships nazi's has true "geniuses" instead of pathetic dumbass losers and most people are incels that make up excuses for being undesirable
+--- 21936165
+>>21931432
+>Women will take tall and 5/10 over Blue Steel face guy who is 5'6".
+Not in my experience
+--- 21936173
+>>21936128
+>Best post in the thread.
+>>21923162
+
+That's not a post at all. I can list off a dozen good female writers and none of them, in their books, write about gender dynamics. Except Esther Vilar and Norah Vincent, obviously.
+--- 21936202
+>>21936159
+Can you teach the people here how to become a super alpha male? I'd be curious to learn from the one exception to the rule of massive divorce and break-up rates, especially as you manage to carry it off with a beer belly in a short sleeved dress shirt several sizes too small.
+--- 21936247
+>>21936202
+of course he can't. His idea is to eat pussy whilst paying for the 'privilege' 1000x more than is reasonable, with an unfaithful girlfiend who'll leave him to get child support payments to finance her own fantasy lifestyle.
+
+People whose culture consists of this like to make-pretend it's all fine and other people are jealous of this.
+--- 21936263
+>>21936247
+many such cases!
+--- 21936269
+>>21936202
+Oh that's simple, don't be yourself. If you get so mad at someone insulting incels and nazi's, than you're clearly someone who needs to change every aspect of who they are
+--- 21936402
+>>21936269
+it's more that I get tired of the revolving door of stock trope opinions from tv news addicts spouting nonsense to shame discussion of any subject... I'm sure it applies here to most, but be more specific, as you're shaming the refutation of the claim and the claim at once.
+
+Also, if you on't like Nazis you shouldn't be repeating the Brave New World position of the modernish trad Nazis, which claims that economic chaos and the bombing of ones own family in a war torn nation will be forgotten about if the individual suffering the effects of those things is shown a picture of some breasts. I have to think that only a virgin would make such a claim but...
+--- 21936408
+>>21936029
+Youre making a huge mistake to take Athenians at their word anon. Socrates was put to death for his role in attempting to establish an oligarchy-- or to be more specific, attempting to educate an oligarchy to behave aristocratically, which is an inherently virtuous action. During the time of his trial it was illegal to make any public mention of involvement in the previous oligarchic system, thus the accusations of "corrupting the youth" which nobody took seriously at the time. There are numerous Socratic dialogues where he discusses the nature of beauty and the nature of virtue, but they are never conflated by any of the people present (except for Socrates, who's being ironic, because he was a hideous man).
+
+The similarities of statues was because they were proportioned according to exact mathematical rations, not because they accurately reflected the average person. The Xenophon reference was to a Greek mercenary who had a Persian mother, and thus defected to the Persian camp. There is no reference of that person being considered less Greek, even after his betrayal.
+
+Greek citizenship was considered hereditary until late into their decadence, which for me is enough to confirm the lack of a "racial" consciousness. Modern race ideals are all directly tied to practices of culture and appearance, where a German can simple move to France and learn the language in order to become French. Greeks on the other hand had people like Alcibiades (strongly Caucasian features) living alongside people like Socrates (strong west African features) without any sense of ethnic difference, because all Greeks could trace a direct line of descent to the same heroic demi-God.
+
+Consider that tribal societies today often explicitly ban inter-familial relationships and simply trace descent through the maternal or paternal lines. This is in strong contrast to the Racial theories of recent times, which are obsessed with "purity" often as a reaction to the very poorly defined race ideal which is tied to direct exercise of state power wearing the mask of "general will" or "blood and soil".
+--- 21936409
+>>21921830 (OP)
+All of the books. Because women are human beings, and all have individual personalities, just like men do.
+--- 21936473
+>>21936402
+Debates especially on 4chan is terrible if its anything revolving around politics. Nothing I will ever say will change your mind into you thinking women should be categorized as mindless idiots who only hurt men and how society gives them a leg up from everyone. I also said literally nothing about divorce rates and the family unit at all. All I did was insult how people are nazi's and incels. You keep bringing up that crap to try and tempt me to talk about it when I'm absolutely won't. You're someone who clearly has the opinion that women are 1 dimensional being's while men are 4d hyper complex controller's of the world, and everyone who disagrees has to be a porn addict, a simp, or wants to get pushed down by women all there life. Which is a pathetic way to view people in every conceivable way, nothing to debate about for a pathetic world view
+--- 21936476
+>>21936408
+all off topic but the "corrupting the youth" was itself the made-up part; obviously it was his role in Alcibiades destruction of life as they knew it that had earned him the hatred of the people. Beyond this, as shown in the works of Aristophanes, Socrates was regarded as a clown like figure; saying basic things and impressing idiots, not unlike later theologians or the cult of dionysus.
+--- 21936488
+>>21921830 (OP)
+i started to understand women the moment i stopped trying to. read the classics that are written by women for some examples of women's thinking
+--- 21936509
+>>21936408
+>There are numerous Socratic dialogues where he discusses the nature of beauty and the nature of virtue,
+written by Plato. I'm suggesting that there's something useful to be gleaned from Socrates if one can break through this statue-love of the mere idea of the man. But this is entirely off-topic.
+
+I don't wish to get into it. Statues either. Partly because I agree with your conclusions, I just arrive at them from other ways. 
+
+Race as a word and a concept 'is' an invention, but 'Ethnos' and Ethos, also constructs, are based in reality. The trouble is that it's a reality which is unfavorable to the proponents of Racialism...
+
+but i will add this,
+> This is in strong contrast to the Racial theories of recent times, which are obsessed with "purity" often as a reaction to the very poorly defined race ideal which is tied to direct exercise of state power wearing the mask of "general will" or "blood and soil".
+That simply because a drug addict passes himself off as a doctor and sticks a needle full of sugar water into your arm, that this does not mean that it is the habit of all doctors to do as such.
+
+Why, if I may go on, to deny Ethnos is itself a hallmark of foul Totalitarianism which denies the lineage and truth of the vast majority of all sentient life forms. But to make too much of Ethnos, to not recognize it as a baseline predisposition to be surpassed, is as much of an error. There is a perfect balance to be found.
+--- 21936515
+>>21936488
+If that's true, then how come we haven't figure out how to use their unfertilized eggs for breakfast?
+
+REFUTED IN YOUR CLAIMS OF UNDERSTANDING, ANON.
+--- 21936529
+>>21936409
+there are like seven or eight personalities that everyone apes
+--- 21936880
+>>21936529
+which one are you?
+--- 21936941
+>>21921830 (OP)
+I never understood why people thought women were mysterious. I don't want to be mean to them but the average woman is practically on the level of a venus flytrap when it comes to complexity.
+--- 21936949
+>>21936880
+Ape wearing clothes having adventures in the big city
+--- 21937014
+>>21936509
+While I agree with you on pretty much everything, I will say that attempts at turning ethnos into a political program is inherently distrustworthy. In the end I have to agree with Sayyid Qutb that all temporal power is a form of shirk. Just like eugenics is best practiced by carefully choosing who to have kids with, ethnic solidarity is best practiced by spending time with your grandparents and neighbours. Any attempt to take power away from the individual, the clan, or the social body is an attempt to reduce people-- to turn us into a race of slaves-- regardless of the ideology used to justify it.
+
+It also seems to me that there are times and places where it is appropriate to form new ethnos, to articulate new ideas who's birth requires both a mixing and a spilling of blood in order to self actualize. Particularly in the new world this is evident: the Metis, the Gaucho, the Cowboy are all examples of this. The mixing of races can occasionally form a stronger ethnic purity than what existed before, and I think this is too often ignored by people who have the types of conversations we are having.
+
+The points about Socrates and statues are interesting. I will be keeping them in mind next time I'm reading the Greeks.

lit/21924046.txt

@@ -114,3 +114,15 @@ how does the teacher do this?
 >>21927279
 >or you just can download it from torrent?
 It's impossible to understand religion by simply reading books. You would be deluding yourself otherwise.
+--- 21934642
+>>21934257
+telepathic transmission. but you have to be advanced enough yourself to be able to perceive it
+--- 21935295
+>>21934257
+they cum inside in your asshole
+--- 21936585
+>>21934642
+are u joking or serious? if serious, can u elaborate? do they really believe that?
+--- 21936751
+>>21936585
+https://youtu.be/sCKS7faz4QA [Embed]

lit/21926578.txt

@@ -750,12 +750,6 @@ swarthoids are so delusional
 --- 21934004
 >>21933797
 A considerable amount of Egan's short fiction involves that as well. There's a lot of vr schlock that technically meets those requirements but doesn't explore it in any meaningful way.
---- 21934022
-Join The Official 4chan Server!!111
-
-https://discord.gg/2mT7nT99
-
-E-girls, cozy wojacks, camwhores... otakus? All Anons Welcome!!!1
 --- 21934035
 >>21933897
 One of the worst books I’ve ever read in my life.
@@ -811,3 +805,226 @@ And how I hate Nick for dumping Jordan by lumping her in with the rest of them F
 --- 21934421
 >>21934368
 Yeah for me it’s the green light Gatsby looks at. But it’s a disillusionment plot so by the end Nicks dreams of the East meet reality and he is in complete disgust. He wouldn’t have stayed. In fact in the beginning he talks about wanting everything to stand at moral attention forever, after what happens. But I can’t remember how he ends it with her so I’ll keep an eye out for that
+--- 21934536
+>>21932107
+Update, i jailbroke it and my novel has sloely devolved into erotic literature. I cannot stop.
+--- 21934544
+>>21934536
+Delete it, masturbate, and get back to work.
+--- 21934563
+I should read more A Thousand Li, apparently there's been two books published since I read the series last. It's not the best series but there's a comfiness to it.
+--- 21934570
+>>21934544
+Shouldnt those first two be swapped?
+--- 21934577
+>>21934570
+No.
+Absolutely no connections in your brain should be made to the smut you've created.
+--- 21934578
+>>21932320
+is this about the new book? how far is it already and how frequent are the updates/translations?
+--- 21934589
+>>21933702
+Player of Games is more linear and "fun", Use of Weapons takes a bit of mental juice due to how it's written (at least for me, but I'm retarded). 
+
+>>21933797
+Egan's Zendegi has VR elements, but you better be interested in Iranian politics for the first third of the book.
+--- 21934600
+Rec me some sci-fi for my dad, please! You know what I mean by this. He's read Hyperion, most of the major stuff, he tried BotNS and didn't finish it I believe. I just see his amazon reading list and it's a looooot of self published stuff.
+I want to give him book-kino but I haven't read a lot of sci-fi at all.
+Last thing he read was Project Hail Mary.
+--- 21934615
+>>21934577
+Too late, how fix.
+--- 21934676
+>>21934578
+>is this about the new book? how far is it already and how frequent are the updates/translations?
+Like 1-2 chapters a day and it's at chapter 89.
+--- 21934706
+>>21934676
+>chapter 89
+wow
+not too shabby. though they are probably shorter i imagine. might start reading soon then
+--- 21934732
+>>21934676
+>Like 1-2 chapters a day and it's at chapter 89.
+my scalp just went numb
+--- 21934854
+What's your favorite upbeat sff story about a heroic character acting upbeat and heroic?
+--- 21934917
+>>21933423
+They got steadily worse as he got more obsessed with his boring old Martian, JC Denton scientist faction and lame nanomachine enemy. Ditching a fertile, grim ancap setting that could support all kinds of fun shit in favor of Mass Effect bad ending with a side of Jesus was a mistake. I remember the entire spinoff book, while all I can dredge up from the last one was that somebody saying "the knights of chrysler" or whatever it was, brought back my susceptibility to car sickness.
+--- 21934962
+>>21934004
+i don't mind schlock in this case. like, sword art online for example, even tho objectively terrible, just it being vr made it compelling to me
+>>21934589
+seems perfect actually. thanks
+--- 21935076
+>>21932320
+is the protag of the new book joining the tarot club? im at chapter 1210, maybe will finish soon and start the new book
+--- 21935269
+>>21935076
+He's already got a card but it seems to be a minor one invited by some new character so it might not be the table where everyone sits?
+--- 21935318
+>>21934732
+you turning bald bro? get that checked out...
+--- 21935323
+I fucking hate TWI. Author delivers two of the best chapters I've read to this point in a row, followed by a chapter I don't give a shit about until the last page, when they introduce a fucking reporter being nominated to the CIA excellency in journalism award (being hunted by the government)
+--- 21935391
+>>21935323
+It's called the slow-burn, zoomer.
+--- 21935443
+>>21935323
+>a chapter I don't give a shit about until the last page
+that definitely happens, not gonna lie. 
+
+>being nominated to the CIA excellency in journalism award (being hunted by the government)
+what? you talking about remi? i don't remember this.
+--- 21935461
+>>21935323
+I'm nearing the end of book 8 and I can't make myself to give a shit about all this ghost bullshit.
+--- 21935920
+Do you need a STEM degree to write hard sci-fi
+--- 21935951
+>>21935920
+No, just Google
+--- 21935954
+>>21934600
+I like the Gap series, from Donaldson. It's a pretty solid space opera, great flow. The first book, however, is straight debauchery. 
+Donaldson shines from the second onwards; thankfully the first one is a novella, quite short.
+--- 21935957
+>>21935920
+you know how some authors write those special thanks to blah blah for helping me, that's what they do, they go talk to an actual professional and ask if the shit their writing is utter nonsense.
+--- 21935963
+>>21934600
+Hammer Slammers by David Drake is boomerkino
+--- 21935967
+>>21935951
+Reminds me of that fantasy author who googled how to make red dye so he could put it in his book. Except the first google result was the zelda: breath of the wild in-game red dye recipe and he just stuck it in there.
+--- 21935975
+>>21935967
+>Except the first google result was the zelda: breath of the wild in-game red dye recipe and he just stuck it in there.
+Did he really? Which book was it?
+--- 21935988
+Is there any more fantasy from the perspective of low rank soldiers like The Black Company series?
+--- 21935999
+>>21935988
+malazan book of the fallen
+--- 21936004
+>>21935975
+A Traveller at the Gates of Wisdom
+
+My mistake, it was a historical book not fantasy. Which only makes the inclusion of monster part ingredients event better.
+--- 21936018
+>>21936004
+>My mistake, it was a historical book not fantasy.
+Grim...
+>>21935988
+Goblin is DeVito and One Eye is Morgan Freeman, at least I think that's how Cook envisioned them in some interview.
+--- 21936031
+>>21935988
+>darling
+That is what everyone wanted to rape so bad?
+--- 21936036
+>>21936004
+often both speculative and sff writers and reader are huge history buffs
+--- 21936161
+>>21929688
+I remember I had an idea for a (somewhat) Naruto flavored world/story:
+
+ Basically there are these tiny(or maybe the world is just bigger) people(I think like an inch tall) that live in this garden and have powers based on animals, plants, and gardening tools. So, for example, some might have dragonfly power, so can fly very well and have good eyesight. Or maybe a rosebush ability, giving them thorns all over them, or a watering can superpower allowing them to store alot of water (in a pocket dimension) then expel it later. 
+
+I probably had more or better explanations of it, but I never did much with this world, so I have forgotten some of the details.
+--- 21936230
+>>21936031
+>mfw everyone got buttmad about Darling's ending
+--- 21936484
+>>21928515
+Barquentine's walking stick is the best character of the series.
+--- 21936562
+>>21935988
+Solider of the Mist
+--- 21936622
+>>21926578 (OP)
+I wonder if I'm the only one here who has read the Nik Perumov LotR books.
+--- 21937109
+The Shadow
+Doc Savage
+Fumanchu
+
+which pulp hacker should i dive into?
+--- 21937148
+Why don't people like this? It was a little muddled at times, and I'd be lying if I said I fully understood it, but I really enjoyed it.
+--- 21937184
+any stories about a doomsday cult where they're the goodguys?
+--- 21937204
+>>21935988
+Sadly not many series keep this trope up long, I mean even tbc doesn't. Sure they start off as just some mercs but their notoriety and position changes to being saviors of the world with people looking to them etc.
+The Red Knight does this too. Good series but same issue.
+--- 21937212
+>>21937148
+I read Hyperion after it was rec here
+It's literally the most reddit thing I have read, cringe diverse characters with shitty jokes on le adventure. I don't get the appeal seriously.
+--- 21937322
+>>21937148
+I grabbed the mass market and holy fuck the font is small. Yet to read it
+--- 21937329
+Opinions on this?
+--- 21937351
+>>21937109
+Read the shadow (specially the first 7 or so books) then doc savage, make sure to read "Doc Savage: My apocalyptic Life" by Philip Jose Farmer. never liked fu manchu, first book is okay but after that it gets too boring and repetitive even for pulp standards. read the original run of Shang-chi Master of Kung-fu and deadly hands of kung-fu instead (Shang-chi is fu manchu's son)
+Also read Planetary by Warren Ellis, The Spider, Operator 5 (called the War and Peace of Pulps back in the day, a bit exaggerated but it's good) and the Justice Inc comic by Helfer
+--- 21937383
+I just randomly remembered Fablehaven from my childhood, google searched it out of nostalgia, and learned there's a sequel series. Is it worth nostalgia reading, or did Brandon Mull go the way of some other authors, *cough* Rick Riordan *cough*, in their sequels?
+--- 21937425
+I redid the cover for one of my old books. What do you guys think?
+--- 21937436
+>>21937212
+Hyperion was really the last straw for me as far as recommendations and this general. 
+
+>>21933350
+You can very safely skip Stephenson. I don't want you to hate this genre you seem to enjoy. Just stick with Egan. Also try some more Watts.
+--- 21937477
+>>21936018
+I wish Cook wrote more SF. His The Dragon Never Sleeps reads like two novels crammed into one, and I rather liked it.
+--- 21937489
+is it just me or does it seem like the majority of dying earth stories are written with more ornate prose than what the author usually writes with?
+--- 21937492
+Erikson doesn't gratuitously write all his rape scenes but spying on naked girls as they sleep is all fun.
+--- 21937533
+>>21937489
+It's to juxtapose the characters brutality. Same with the elegant way they speak
+--- 21937810
+>>21937492
+Most realistically written 17yo boy ever desu
+--- 21937839
+>>21937489
+idk i've read lyonesse and last castle and it's hard to quantify ornateness but to me the similiarties are instantly noticeable and i feel like i could have recognized vance even if nobody told me those were written by him
+--- 21937938
+>>21926578 (OP)
+Mieville reigns supreme. 
+He makes chud scream.
+And women cream.
+--- 21937956
+>>21929031
+unironically name of the wind
+
+I really love the dichotomy in the setting between the reliable, understandable, scientific magics of the university and the mysterious, wild, illogical, and nigh-unknowable magic that still lurks in the corners of the world
+--- 21937971
+I hope you have fun reading a story you enjoy today
+--- 21937973
+>>21934563
+Oh I'm in in the exact same position as you, I'll have to check the new releases out.
+
+Yeah I think there's something comfy about a story about a fairly average cultivator. Not many stories really get into what the day to day sect life for normies involves. Scenes of having tea and working are a nice change of pace instead of the protagonist just showing up and wrecking/hijacking the sect on day 1
+--- 21937974
+>>21937971
+IM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS
+--- 21938006
+>protagonists or non evil characters have brown/black eyes
+my investment into the story just dropped by 70%
+--- 21938010
+Sherlock Holmes but it's steampunk Lovecraftian horror with ribald human-alien sex with eldritch horrors that sport 6 breasts.
+--- 21938016
+>>21938010
+I feel like this is already a thing

lit/21928544.txt

@@ -98,3 +98,51 @@ Also this.
 I am not a fan of piracy or stealing, my conscience can not handle doing it. It may not mean anything to the author/publisher if I steal, but it means something to me.
 --- 21933768
 I only buy physical copies of books I really like and sometimes out of impulse. Just in case electricity goes out or whatever. I read a lot on the go and I prefer reading on my phone or a reader in that case. Too much hassle handling books in public.
+--- 21935328
+>>21928544 (OP)
+You should own your books. If you rent them, you keep them and they are your property. It's that simple. Taking this for granted is a foolish endeavor in today's world, just as it was in the past, for there are many people in this world who seek to eliminate ownership of anything altogether. 
+
+Keep your books, and buy the ones you need. If you must go to the library, you can check out books, and join in on the fun events that are held at libraries.
+
+>Piracy and Stealing are good options
+Deplorable. Begone, Crime Doesn't Pay. Only thieves pilfer and steal. Your actions will have consequences, even if not immediate.
+--- 21935485
+1. Library is far away.
+2. I read at my own pace and pleasure.
+3. I like looking at my shelves.
+Tragically, I love in a small apartment so 1000 books is the most I can keep without it turning into hoarder-tier shithole.
+--- 21935711
+>>21935328
+Piracy's a lot better than actually stealing and one of the few measures preventing us from losing ownership of a lot more things and getting around censorship. I wouldn't go so far as to call it deplorable. I would go to a library for a book I couldn't purchase for whatever reason anyway. This is just that without wait time, it also allows me to actually see if a book is worth purchasing. What's shown in samples is usually never enough to be indicative of quality and a shitty latter section can ruin the entire book.
+--- 21935767
+>>21935711
+The solution is not to steal, but to create your own stuff. Your lack of creativity saddens me, copyright laws exists for a reason, it's meant to promote authenticity, so nobody's just mimicking and copying everyone else for profit, which is no better than plagiarizing. 
+
+Piracy is a crime, which you can be fined and serve time for. You've been warned.
+--- 21935786
+>>21928558
+>Boob size can be accentuated or minimized through strategic shirt drawing.
+What the hell? 
+>>21928544 (OP)
+Sometimes it's good to have an actual physical book sometimes.
+--- 21935839
+>>21935767
+How does creating my own stuff preserve the old? Copyright does not exist within reason, that ship has sailed. I'm not even depriving anyone of any thing they'd lose by digital piracy. Piracy is the force able to back up defence of consumer rights. And also I wouldn't be giving them money anyway if I was resorting to piracy.
+--- 21935846
+>>21935839
+Corps would walk all over consumer rights if there wasn't the threat if 'violence' through piracy. It's like having an armed populace, much harder to tyrannise.
+--- 21937050
+I gave up on library books after I scratched my anus with my bare fingernails once while reading one. I can only assume other people are as filthy as me and I'm not risking it
+--- 21937245
+>>21937050
+>one of the books I own could have been touched by a girl's butthole-dirty fingers 
+Thank you anon, I had no idea one of my book could be this special
+--- 21937788
+>>21928612
+The world is a zero sum game. I refuse to "support" anyone.
+--- 21937798
+>>21928544 (OP)
+Why borrow when you can pirate?
+--- 21937859
+>>21929701
+Give them back

lit/21929123.txt

@@ -701,3 +701,74 @@ Parents over children, teachers over students, experts over novices. In no way,
 --- 21934273
 >>21933219
 Central and Eastern post bloc Europe is a living proof of why this "doesn't work" - or more specifically, a proof of how distributing means of production among a large number of people leads to run of the mill western capitalism. And as long as people value material comfort over autonomy, this will always be the case.
+--- 21934487
+>>21929225
+>Monopolies requires government force to enact and maintain.
+>google totally isnt paying lobbyists to try and outlaw tiktok and give teenagers 20 years in prison for using a vpn to try an use tik tok
+--- 21934660
+>>21929123 (OP)
+this book fucking sucks. Fisher was just a mopey fag whining about how he couldn't join a cool music scene
+--- 21934661
+>>21929244
+Adorno's physiognomy should tell you all you need to know about him.
+His take on jazz was correct though, I'll give that beady-eyed little kike that much.
+--- 21934662
+>>21933260
+based green-ray enjoyer
+--- 21934687
+>>21929123 (OP)
+There is no alternative so long as people believe there is no alternative. Nothing is too big to fail. 
+The reality that people don't want to accept is that they are responsible for propping up the neoliberal capitalist machine every day of their lives.
+Yes of course there is an alternative. People don't want it. At least not at any immediate cost of their own. It's like maintaining an old run down car. Capitalism, ironically, is the ultimate demonstration of the sunk cost fallacy.
+--- 21935035
+>>21933294
+>in what way is love superior to promoting a false notion that you aren’t related to other tribes of people at all and you are allowed to slaughter them all as much as subjugate?
+If you have to ask, I doubt I could heal your broken mind. Caring and even pride is not the same thing as thinking you are supreme
+--- 21936062
+>>21929558
+lol
+--- 21936074
+>>21934661
+I actually disagree with everything Adorno said for the most part
+--- 21936081
+>>21935035
+Well, I don’t think you can do much except hang yourselves at this point.
+--- 21936573
+>>21929225
+gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8
+--- 21936705
+he blames the bureaucracy of today on capitalism, but doesnt it make more sense to blame it on state regulations? corporations wouldnt need so much bureaucracy if they didnt have to report things to the state and cover their asses
+--- 21937629
+>>21929225
+very funny reply, mediocre bait
+--- 21937673
+>>21929123 (OP)
+I 100% believe the only end to capitalism is AI abolishing wage labor.
+People are always saying the US is crumbling because no one can afford a house or a car but that really does not matter at all. As long as they're well fed it literally does not matter. The rich get richer.
+How do you even get enough people to be convinced of specific changes to make and then enact those changes? Apparently gen z is making strides since tiktok is a very fast way of getting the word out but that's an easily regulated app that can be taken from them at a moments notice.
+--- 21937705
+>>21936705
+>he blames the bureaucracy of today on capitalism, but doesnt it make more sense to blame it on state regulations? corporations wouldnt need so much bureaucracy if they didnt have to report things to the state and cover their asses
+Yes, because the government implements regulations due to being dumb and gullible and ineffective and therefore just randomly deciding to give in to the demands of some retard hippies. Not because those regulations are lobbied on the money of those very corporations in order to decimate smaller competitors and regulate the market until it becomes impossible for a new player to enter the competition, so that a few largest players paying for those lobbies will retain their position for as long as possible.
+--- 21937719
+>>21929123 (OP)
+>Is there really no alternative?
+There really is no alternative. You know why? Because capitalism is just the law the nature acting itself out. If you are against capitalism, it really just means you have failed to develop past adolescent naivete
+--- 21937723
+>>21929165
+>Cavemen did not trade seashells
+hunter gatherers in california literally used seashells as currency
+--- 21937728
+>>21929201
+>Where are the monopolies and 1% overlords in nature? Is there a great tree extracting life force from everything else?
+Thats literally how trees work. They grow to try and monopolize as much sunlight as possible. You are a stupid cunt. I knew literature was a cope for ignorant morons
+--- 21937870
+>>21937728
+It's easy to know that someone is not very intelligent when they use words like "literally". Maybe you should read more books on biology, real ones not popsci, instead of overdosing on propaganda and brainwashing on the internet.
+
+I will spoonfeed you a bit so your two brain cells can take a rest for a while, take your time to Google biology books.
+
+No single tree takes soil more than they need. 
+No single tree takes sunlight more than they need.
+Nature is the state of temperance.
+Capitalism is a human vice: avarice.

lit/21929193.txt

@@ -91,9 +91,6 @@ Seems like a big promise but I could do with some mental curing, so, ok, I'll gi
 >other people do it, so it's okay for me to do it
 --- 21931006
 the Indian religions are more Western than the Jewish ones
---- 21931013
->>21931006
-ok streetshitter
 --- 21931014
 >>21929432
 Were the warriors in the Old Testament killing their close relatives?
@@ -183,3 +180,85 @@ What? Nietzsche praised it as the epitome of Aryan life affirmation
 >>21933524
 >I also really dislike this statement from Prabhupada:
 You're still attached to egoistic pride. You will never become enlightened from simply reading books, this is a fact.
+--- 21935518
+>>21934027
+>gita an aryan text
+>nietzsche giving any fucks about aryans
+lmao
+--- 21936389
+>>21932385
+>>21932436
+Excellent exegesis and analysis, anon. Thanks for sharing
+--- 21936898
+I came to many similar conclusions like that of bhagavad gita without reading it. That is how I know what it has to say is true.
+--- 21936909
+>>21936898
+I think the idea of God being the supreme enjoyer is the strongest idea. Does it mean God enjoys our pain and ignorance? Does God enjoy our suffering in the same way we enjoy to see characters suffer in the movies?
+--- 21936939
+>>21933524
+Any expectation or attachment introduces delusion like confirmation bias. To attain knowledge or reach any goal abandon the goal as primary and submit. Whatever your goal is it's in the hands of the Absolute.
+https://youtu.be/0XYUOYffGhw [Embed]
+--- 21936995
+>>21931006
+Based and aryan pilled.
+--- 21937086
+>>21931006
+Not at all
+t. Hindu
+--- 21937098
+>>21929193 (OP)
+>Aryan
+>Krishna is literally a dark-skinned Dravidian God-Hero
+lmao
+--- 21937106
+>>21931006
+he's right you know
+--- 21937133
+>>21931006
+Hebrews were Aryans. The Egyptian enslavement was a result of an Aryan invasion into Egypt and a later rebellion against those Aryan lords. Blonde hair mostly comes from Scandinavia 2000 years ago, it's not a distinguishing feature of Aryans.
+--- 21937146
+you're supposed to read this with the commentaries of Śrī Śaṃkara Bhagavatpāda, the supreme Commentator
+--- 21937260
+why is Hinduism so beautiful bros?
+--- 21937277
+>>21937086
+puranic hindu or vedic hinduism? puranic hinduism is cancer reject the puranas.
+--- 21937472
+>>21937277
+>puranic hinduism is cancer
+brainlet take
+
+The Puranas are not substantially different from other Smriti literature like the Bhagavad-Gita inasmuch as they often are just retelling Upanishadic (i.e. Vedic) teachings by repackaging them into an extended narrative that incidentally includes various other topics as well.
+--- 21937485
+Is there a difference between a desire for wealth and a desire for enough money to get by?
+
+When the Gita says that we should remove all desires, does that include the desire to have enough money to pay the bills?
+--- 21937503
+>>21937485
+Framing your actions around that goal leads to missing opportunities that could lead to better outcomes. You don't actually want a specific outcome, you want blessings from God in general.
+--- 21937722
+>>21936909
+> Does it mean God enjoys our pain and ignorance? Does God enjoy our suffering in the same way we enjoy to see characters suffer in the movies?
+I dont fully understand Vaishnava theology but AFAIK they believe that Brahman/Vishnu has knowledge of particulars (including the minds of living beings), but in a way that doesn’t taint God, and they also believe him to be free from all imperfections (under which they would surely include enjoying other’s suffering as an imperfection). They also don’t believe that God has enjoyment in a manner analogous to embodied creatures. So how do they understand that verse? Well, in the actual verse it mentions both “The Great Lord” (Mahaesvara) and “The Supreme Self” (Paramatma) and the verse seems to be using them interchangeably as if to imply that they are the same and that the entire verse is referring to the Supreme Self that is the Lord.
+
+The Vaishnava theologian Ramanuja interprets the verse to actually be about the embodied self which he claims is only figuratively being described in the verse as the Lord because it Lords over the body, i.e. Ramanuja doesn’t think that the verse is actually saying that God is the enjoyer. Perhaps Hare Krishna Vaishnavas do believe this though since according to them the self is mysteriously both different and non-different from God so under their rules it could be interpreted that way.
+--- 21937724
+>>21937722
+>>21936909
+In Advaita Vedanta, God (Brahman) has no knowledge of particulars but is just absorbed in the eternal freedom of non-duality without any perceiving of duality or suffering, however this infinite unattached consciousness at the same time is the inner self of all creatures, because God’s self-luminous consciousness provides the light (of sentience) which allows the minds of creatures to function and have experiences, like how the same sun provides light for millions of creatures to have experiences at once. Because “enjoying” and “agentship” results from the confluence of the (insentient) creaturely mind/intellect and God’s consciousness (the only existent sentience), God can thus figuratively be called the ‘experiencer’ or the ‘witness’ so long as one understands that intrinsically in Himself God is free from this distinction and its relevance is only incidental to what happens when this light of non-dual partless unchanging consciousness provides the inner illumination for the mind and thereby lets it act and enjoy things (while it does this the consciousness of God doesn’t actually witness or enjoy anything or otherwise cease to be in eternal non-duality, without the perception of multiplicity).
+
+The Advaita theologian Shankara applies the above model to said verse, and thus he interprets the verse to be talking both about the Supreme God and the innermost Self (they are the same thing in Advaita), which seems closer to the intent of the verse IMO, and he interprets the verse to be describing this divine God/Self as the enjoyer in a figurative way, by applying the description to God of what more properly is the result of the confluence of God’s sentience and the mind that enjoys. The reason why the Upanishads and other texts like the Gita do this is that this is one of the ways that help to point out the innermost Self, like how you can point out the moon to someone by first pointing out a tree branch that is partially in front of the moon, and then going “it’s that thing right behind that branch which is surrounding it” once they are looking at the branch.
+--- 21937736
+is it really impossible to discuss Indian literature without faggots bringing all this /pol/ and /his/ we wuz aryan shit?
+--- 21937742
+>>21929518
+You're confusing western New Age with actual Hinduism.
+--- 21937907
+>>21929193 (OP)
+Whiteoid niggers can't appreciate anything unless they appropriate it and larp as "muh Aryanz". Take your dirty mleccha hands off our books, you rats. You were are not "Aryan". You will never be "Aryan".
+--- 21937989
+>>21929193 (OP)
+Which translation should I read famalam?
+--- 21938053
+>>21937736
+there's always reddit

lit/21929539.txt

@@ -98,3 +98,137 @@ what happened to this board?
 --- 21934300
 >>21934221
 Cuckoldry.
+--- 21934778
+>>21933943
+>>21932018
+You're acting like there is something mystical within the writing to overwrite how bad the plot is. It's downright disgusting what I skimmed over, I can't imagine what the people who read it went through.
+--- 21934802
+>>21933950
+This book was so bad that I went outside and threw it in a public trash can. It wasn't even worthy of being in my trash and you're worshipping it? Lmao.
+--- 21934830
+>>21934221
+Your subtle implication of veterancy under the guise of outward criricism should've made you feel humiliated - yet you posted it and thought that we would affirm your identity.
+--- 21934896
+>>21933952
+This is the correct opinion.
+
+>>21934141
+I disagree. Hunger showcases much more literary inventiveness and has an energy and uniqueness that his later authorship completely lacks. While Growth of the Soil is a very worthwhile piece of craftsmanship, it is squarely within the genre conventions of standard-issue pastoral elegies, and as sympathetic as its message is in the wake of World War I (the reason he received the Nobel prize for it), it is not nearly as compelling a critique of modernity (which was his overarching project throughout the entire authorship) as his earlier works, Hunger included, where he manages to illustrate, via stylistic invention, the dionysian and dissolving effects of modernity on subjectivity itself. I cannot stress this enough. This is the source of Hamsun's genius and why he was lauded by artist-intellectuals like Mann and phenomenological philosophers like Heidegger. 
+Johan Nagel is one of the greatest characters ever written, mercurial and paradoxically, oblique and transparent at the same time. He is the archetype of modernity. I consider Hamsun's stream-of-consciousness even better than Joyce's in the three works of the 1890's that merit GOAT status, especially in Mysteries. And needless to say, more original. The lyricism of Pan and Hunger are unmatched in the rest of his authorship and among the GOAT of all literature. At times, Pan reads like prose poetry in the vein of Baudelaire, but singing to the praise of all creation rather than the abject dread of the gutter - reading it is a nearly religious experience. All three of these, Hunger, Mysteries and Pan outrank the rest of his authorship, and the majority of world literature - which is frankly insane, that he could produce three absolute masterpieces in the span of 5 years - the frenetic energy of his production mirroring the frenetic energy of his works. 
+
+Do you have any idea how fucking great it is to make the narrator of Hunger try to disprove Kantian practical philosophy with a stump of pencil and a scrap of paper, so he can sell his essay and eat? This is Hamsun summarizing the entire ethos of the fin-de-siecle modernity shitting on Kantian enligthtenment thought, in a profoundly intellectually compelling way, in a dry joke. It's the sort of divine inspiration found in mania, and Hamsun manages to infect you with it in his early works - if you are receptive to it.
+
+Growth of the Soil does not have that. I am not saying it is bad. I am saying that 1890's Hamsun is GOAT so hard that it makes your head spin.
+--- 21934907
+>>21934221
+/pol/
+--- 21935788
+>>21929539 (OP)
+This book sucks.
+--- 21935796
+>>21929539 (OP)
+The worst book maybe ever in the history of literature.
+--- 21936170
+>>21929539 (OP)
+People like this book?
+Lmao
+--- 21936326
+>>21933046
+Yes
+--- 21936356
+>>21934778
+Nigga you are DUMB, read books nigga damn no one gives a fuck about your whinging and bitching especially when you don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. Dumb nigga really just said plot summary
+--- 21936406
+>>21929539 (OP)
+Comfy? More like boring af.
+--- 21936415
+Posts like these >>21936406 are why we need unique ID tags
+--- 21936670
+>>21929539 (OP)
+This book should be regulated as a medicinal-grade sedative.
+--- 21936685
+Extreme samefaggery ITT
+Imagine getting this upset about a vintage cottagecore novel
+--- 21936981
+>>21929539 (OP)
+I'm reading it now, when does it get good?
+--- 21936993
+>>21929539 (OP)
+>>21930493
+>>21930843
+>>21930883
+>>21931647
+>>21932002
+>>21932008
+>>21932018
+>>21932032
+>>21932055
+>>21932071
+>>21932235
+>>21932253
+>>21932514
+>>21932746
+>>21932759
+>>21932772
+>>21932790
+>>21932810
+>>21932984
+>>21932998
+>>21933018
+>>21933046
+>>21933099
+>>21933940
+>>21933943
+>>21933950
+>>21933952
+>>21934141
+>>21934146
+>>21934168
+>>21934221
+>>21934300
+>>21934778
+>>21934802
+>>21934830
+>>21934896
+>>21934907
+>>21935788
+>>21935796
+>>21936170
+>>21936326
+>>21936356
+>>21936406
+>>21936415
+>>21936670
+>>21936685
+>>21936981
+--- 21937250
+>>21934778
+> skimmed 
+> plot 
+
+
+Why the fuck are so many retards on this board?
+--- 21937254
+>>21936993
+Is this real?
+--- 21937263
+What the fuck happened in this thread with this samefaggotry? And why with this book?
+--- 21937374
+>>21934778
+Tanizakifags are such retards
+--- 21937760
+>>21937263
+There is an anon who wants someone to articulate a reason for why the book is good, likely because he found himself in some position where he articulated the standard-issue /lit/ opinion that it is good, but he doesn't know why.
+Hence, he baits for someone to effortpost some original insight he can regurgitate, should the need ever arise, without having to think for himself, which he can't.
+Unfortunately, effortposts are few and far between, and the only one made in the thread so far favors early Hamsun over late Hamsun, and goes into some detail why Growth of the Soil is a more mediocre work.
+
+>>21934896
+Good post, but keep in mind Matthew 7:6 going forward.
+--- 21937772
+Why are the penguin editions so expensive
+--- 21938000
+>>21929539 (OP)
+OP, did you like the book or not? You make one post about it being comfy and like 20 that are hating on it.
+--- 21938004
+>>21929539 (OP)
+This book? Throw it in the trash!

lit/21929727.txt

@@ -170,3 +170,66 @@ I have a similar interest.
 
 I would like to get information on the the very beginning of the church. From Jesus to the schism. 
 Is there anything on this that is conclusive?
+--- 21934731
+Religion of the Apostles by Fr. Stephen de Young
+--- 21934765
+Many Saints have been representations of Jesus on earth
+
+Since Jesus was the closest representation of God there was, the one from which the original source of love passed through the most
+
+I suggest you read some texts left by saints, some of them have been able to see and communicate with Jesus himself
+
+Most saints had degrees of clairvoyance and were able to accomplish miracles much like Jesus was
+
+Not a single Saint did not adored Jesus and the father, God bless
+
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6abfZNH6SRM [Embed]
+--- 21934925
+>>21930743
+Youre right but normies dont get it
+
+So the wisest most patient people have provided the scriptures to them, through the divine inspiration and gifts of the holy spirity
+
+Theyve also saved many good people that didnt know God exists that went on to have redemption all because of these writtings and their own example
+
+And you know even a normie could change, not become a saint but at least not doom themselves as much, God truly loves us all and its painful these people doom themselves like this unknowingly walking away from Gods love into the hands of destruction
+--- 21935050
+Can't believe nobody has mentioned Athanasius yet. Probably THE book for understanding who Jesus is but also His metaphysical importance.
+--- 21935545
+>>21930732
+You mean Muhammad's plagiarised hodgepodge of local tales and stories he put together to give credence to his narcissism and make himself a God?
+--- 21935560
+>>21930716
+Nietzsche ft. Jesus is one of the best collaborations in all of history, if not the best.
+--- 21936090
+>>21929727 (OP)
+>Frehers Process in The Philosophical Work
+>Imitation of Christ
+>Non-Canonical Scriptures about Jesus
+--- 21937078
+>>21933647
+It is not only about the heretical sects of primitive Christianity. I think this guy is arguing that even a lot of things that Jesus talks about in the canonical bible are antinatalistics.
+I say this because there is an unpublished writing by this philosopher that is available in French (I translated it in google translator) "The Gospel of Theopile" in which he talks about this. 
+>http://theophiledegiraud.e-monsite.com/pages/page-10.html
+--- 21937864
+>>21937078
+Seems counterintuitive to the whole message of the bible, so if you do read it, take it with a tablespoon of salt.
+--- 21937878
+>>21929727 (OP)
+Gospel of Thomas.
+--- 21937931
+>>21929727 (OP)
+Ante-Nicene Fathers
+--- 21937934
+>>21937878
+orphic gnostic propaganda nonsense
+--- 21937935
+>>21937934
+>orphic
+That's John mate.
+>gnostic
+Only a few fragments, plus the concept of gnosticism is overly generic in current scholarship.
+>propaganda
+It is a Gospel, do you know the genre
+>nonsense
+Yes, its fanfiction, good spotting.

lit/21929783.txt

@@ -123,3 +123,13 @@ Almost anything by Joseph Conrad.
 >women
 >the real anything
 post beefcurtains
+--- 21935191
+If you fancy a bit of horror with your sea life fantasy
+--- 21936621
+bum
+--- 21936743
+>>21929783 (OP)
+my book I'm writing. If you want a real book though, the dark frigate is a good children's book.
+--- 21937642
+>>21937627
+It's a great book but it takes place on land (except for the island bit near the end). Youth is a fantastic novelette and takes place on a sailboat. The ending is so good. End of the Tether is also great and takes place on a steamboat. I'm sure he has others that exclusively take place on boats but I haven't read them.

lit/21929820.txt

@@ -334,3 +334,68 @@ damn... i should have known that when i downloaded these free papers.. i was bei
 --- 21934212
 This thread is quite amusing, like a satire by Pope or Swift on the vanity of scholarly pursuit, culminating in very earnest semantic battles.
 Anyway, can the ctmu shill provide ONE, literally just one insight from it that is theoretically fruitful, ie helps make sense of the world? No I'm not asking for "practical results", only proper theoretical ones. Because that's the one thing one never gets in the ctmu threads for some reason.
+--- 21935498
+bump
+--- 21935840
+>>21929820 (OP)
+>while preserving virtually all benefits of the current scientific and mathematical paradigms
+What benefits are NOT preserved?
+--- 21935885
+>>21929820 (OP)
+>What’s the most useful and tangible consequence of the CTMU?
+Langans answer to that is such a pathetic deflection and strawmanship that it really seals the deal on him being an halfwit bullshitter. Imagine a physicist answering a question about the consequences of GR with something like "Oh you want to make make a quick buck out of understanding the cosmos, you foolish rube?! I'm dealing in somewhat jigher matters *smirk*"; Please, can Langan or his fanboys point out an intellectual, theoretical consequence?
+--- 21936658
+>>21935885
+Langan’s personality as it manifests online is hilariously offputting — he’s extremely low in agreeableness (at least online), to speak in terms of the Big Five personality traits model. So this kinda encourages people to disregard him more easily, as well as get amusement by attacking him, or some cultish followers (the same way schoolyard bullies are attracted to the kid who makes funniest reactions when annoyed).
+
+So I have to admit that, Langan is pretty funny about this and doesn’t do himself much favors with his (perhaps even merited, who knows) big ego and megalomaniacal claims about himself and his theory. But that aside, I kind of have to agree with his snobbishness when it comes to rejoinders like these. What’s the “point” of Spinoza, Plotinus or Plato’s works? Or the point of string theory or knowledge about black holes (which don’t have much “practical” use, immediately and apparently)? You’re on a literature/de facto philosophy and theology board. So it’s out of place.
+
+I confess to being too small-brained to make heads or tails of Langan’s longer more detailed papers he has online (as well as the mathematical/logical symbology, at which point I zone out), but bits of it are thrilling to read for me.
+
+Sorry Papa Langan. You’re based and redpilled for speaking out against the globalists but chuds like me can’t fathom the rest.
+--- 21937340
+Daily reminder http://www.goodmath.org/blog/2008/02/21/two-for-one-crackpot-physics-and-crackpot-set-theory/
+
+If you don't have a background in mathematical logic let me assure you this dude is simply lol
+--- 21937426
+>>21937340
+Reminder of what? That Jews like MarkCC will deny the reality they perceive with their own eyes and attempt to redefine basic terminology when they fail to produce a coherent argument in their attempts to destroy and vilify the truth? We already knew that, silly.
+--- 21937484
+>>21937426
+>he doesn't understand the difference between a set and a class 
+o i am laughing
+--- 21937560
+>>21929820 (OP)
+You know analytic judgements i.e. tautologies are just definitions right? They have no ground outside of them being an arbitrary definition, it neither proves their existence, nor has any corresponding object to it.
+--- 21937565
+>>21936658
+>he’s extremely low in agreeableness
+Being "agreeable" with people who are wrong is retarded and cowardly.
+--- 21937623
+>>21937560
+you know definitions and tautologies underpin every coherent theory or statement which has ever existed right?
+--- 21937649
+>>21937623
+And those definitions are grounded on empirical observation, therefore they are true not just mere definitions. If by virtue of definition anything was true then I could say my logical self-ground theory's first axiom is that square-circles exist or that invisible fairies are responsible for the heisenberg uncertainity principle or replace with a bunch of mathematical jargon to sound intelligent like Langan does.
+--- 21937667
+>>21937649
+And observation is grounded in certain rules as a requirement of intelligibility, like 2-valued logic, by virtue of which you can say that X is X which means it is not not-X. Unless you can empirically show something that fits the description of being both X and not-X.
+--- 21937715
+>>21936658
+>But that aside, I kind of have to agree with his snobbishness when it comes to rejoinders like these. What’s the “point” of Spinoza, Plotinus or Plato’s works? Or the point of string theory or knowledge about black holes (which don’t have much “practical” use, immediately and apparently)? You’re on a literature/de facto philosophy and theology board. So it’s out of place.
+You seem indeed to have trouble reading, my very point was that Langan strawmans the question into a demand for "practical use"; no, I don't care about that, but it's not too outrageous to ask for the actual theoretical insights. At least some bulletpoints. Or any hints that it reproduces known laws. 
+Langan claims it's a universal theory of everything, so there should be no trouble deriving, let's say, the Einstein field equation from it, or some even broader equivalent. But if it's just a fun-to-read philosophical tract, Langan shouldn't make his megalomaniac claims.
+--- 21937757
+>>21937715
+Einstein field equations automatically presume the metaformal system of the CTMU like they do 2VL. Because the CTMU is a theory of the necessary relationship between mind and reality, and because EFE presumably refer to perceptual objects, this is a given.
+--- 21937801
+>>21937757
+Wow, it's... even more retarded then I thought. x=-x is not (the form of) a paradox btw
+--- 21937815
+>>21937801
+>x=-x is not (the form of) a paradox btw
+show me one (1) (uno)
+--- 21937820
+>>21937801
+>x=-x is not (the form of) a paradox btw
+Are you retarded?

lit/21929855.txt

@@ -864,3 +864,65 @@ Don't forget the hard take on the female question in the present state of the va
 >>21933791
 The game changes little depending on your choices which have a small impact on the story (I guess it might be the point, you live in a society, etc). You mostly just pick which schizo voice you hear in your head. All ideologies are trashed, if anything anglo left-liberalism is the worst treated. Needless to say the "ideologies" are caricatures as seen from a current-year communist, you shouldn't expect an actual discussion of the doctrines mentioned. There is nothing intellectual, the devs are commies but living in the permanent disillusion phase of mocking things as a matter of principle. 
 Despite calling itself a RPG the game is a glorified visual novel and I suspect Anglin liked it because he's just not very good at video games by his own admission.
+--- 21935465
+>>21933506
+Nta, if you’re still here what do you think of Erich Jantsch’s self-organizing universe?
+--- 21935516
+>>21934215
+>All ideologies are trashed
+That's the sense I got, which means right-wing butthurt towards the game is unwarranted. I don't care if the devs are commies (which may or may not be true, as I've heard people say this but I've never seen evidence), I care about the merit of the game alone.
+--- 21935613
+>>21932974
+>the video game Disco Elysium which is extremely anti-white 
+I actually played this and I can't imagine the level of mental gymnastics required to make the case that Disco Elysium is even slightly anti-white, let alone "extremely" so. Fascism is just tumblr for white men.
+--- 21936014
+>>21930248
+>>chuds dislike McCarthy
+Think again
+--- 21936064
+Christcucks will be the death of this board. Kek. 
+>Nooo, eveything that veers outside the confines of my subversive, anti-kin selection, desert death cult book is evil and satanic!!!!!!!!
+--- 21936133
+>>21933210
+Psychological processes are for the most part chemical processes, retard. Anxiety, stress and fear, all directly linked to trauma, are all chemical.
+--- 21936239
+>>21929855 (OP)
+>I'm not even really very smart
+I know, we can tell.
+--- 21936506
+>>21936133
+Then propose a molecular mechanism by which you can alter your DNA by thinking.
+--- 21936931
+>>21935613
+>Fascism is just tumblr for white men.
+That's one of those lines that sounds good when you say it but didn't really mean anything.
+Because, despite Democrat-leaning, self hating White people writing seemingly endless Buzzfeed, Vice, NYTs, LATs, HuffPo, WaPo etc articles, there are about ten fascists in the United States of America.
+--- 21936937
+>>21935516
+>My wings
+>My precious, 200-year old, nonsense bullshit wings that I can't find any other word for because I'm the intellectual equivalent of an ant, a single ant, just one single ant!
+--- 21936987
+>>21936014
+Your fan edit won't disprove facts, chud.
+--- 21937071
+>>21936937
+Right-wing butthurt detected
+--- 21937126
+>>21930465
+Thanks. I've gotten tired of refuting the nonsense of good goys and their masters.
+--- 21937502
+>>21936987
+Not my edit and it's hilarious, and if I'm a chud why do I like McCarthy?
+--- 21937656
+I loved Suttree. I still think about it all the time. Maybe I should read it again soon.
+--- 21937684
+>>21929855 (OP)
+The Road is literally one of McCarthy's most optimistic and moralistic books
+--- 21937771
+>>21935516
+commie or not (it is tho) the game is faggot drivel and not good. you can stop coping now.
+--- 21938027
+>>21929935
+>Only Blood Meridian comes close to not being exactly that and only because of the character of the judge who is something like Satan or Mephistopheles
+no, blood meridian is effective precisely because the judge isn't Satan or Mephistopheles or even supernatural, he is simply the ideal person who thrives in that kind of setting of meaningless violence and suffering. He is every much human, but the storytelling makes him seem supernatural because he everyone else seems foreign in that kind of setting. they all have moments of doubt about the mindless violence, he doesn't, so he stands out. it's also why the book says "he doesn't age". violence, suffering, stress take a toll on you and age you. it won't take a toll on someone who is absolutely at home among all that violence.
+the kid aging into the man and telling him that even animals do the dance of violence marks him out as someone who has grown out of that world, he no longer belongs there, so he dies after that, while the judge continues to thrive and hasn't aged because he belongs.

lit/21930287.txt

@@ -166,3 +166,211 @@ we heard you the first time, go be a postmodernist faggot on reddit
 >>21930298
 >Dylan obviously did not deserve to win, [insert literal who] deserved it!
 Reporting in
+--- 21934571
+>>21930287 (OP)
+/lit/'s a farina board
+--- 21934582
+>>21933822
+polcel moment
+--- 21935621
+>>21930475
+>Where do you anons draw the line?
+At the point when a sell out pop icon who now sells his music through Starbucks wins the most prestigious prize for literature in the world because Boomers are retards who still gossip about him going electric half a century ago.
+--- 21935646
+>>21930287 (OP)
+boomer cringe poet, but great songwriter. Excluding the music it'd only be slightly above average poetry as a whole, even in his best songs during the 60s. The music is what carries his lyrics as in pretty much all music.
+--- 21935649
+>>21930412
+>Lyrics are essentially poetry set to music
+Hence the word "lyric," retard.
+>Many of his songs in the early 60s became anthems of a generation that forever changed the civil structure of Western society.
+Pseud.
+>Like it or not, his body of work has had more impact on the world than at least 95% of other literature laureates.
+You can say the same thing about WAP. It doesn't mean it changed the world or impacted literature in any significant way. Boomers infect the world with their nostalgia.
+>Most winners of this award have produced great bodies of work that will endure amongst intellectuals for many years, but very few can say their efforts definitively had an impact on society.
+Impact on literature and you're overselling Dylan based on his popstar status.
+>Dylan can, and thats not debatable.
+It's entirely debatable. You're buying into Boomer nostalgia, and that's obvious.
+--- 21935688
+>>21935649
+>You're buying into Boomer nostalgia, and that's obvious
+Gotta second this anon. Personally, I literally do not know a single Bob Dylan song (beyond the songs The Band covered, which I know of because I listen to The Band, and those tend to be their weaker offerings) and have never heard ANYBODY discuss his culture-defining lyrics. Its always just, "Oh yeah Bob Dylan was super important" with no qualification for that statement.
+Even among protest music shit like American Pie and Paved Paradise, or hell even Brick in the Wall stick out to me as still relevant musically today while nothing of Dylan's is.
+--- 21935693
+>>21930406
+Is Homer literature?
+--- 21935701
+>>21935693
+Yes, and so is Dylan, as long as it's written and has artistic quality.
+--- 21935712
+>>21935693
+Not as it was originally performed, no. If you were literate you would know that.
+--- 21935747
+>>21935688
+Checked. I ended up hanging out with Garth Hudson and his wife for about an hour one time. Super nice people--odd but ridiculously friendly. 
+
+Bob Dylan is just a brand for marketing Boomer nostalgia at this point. I can't wait until that generation dies out. If you're a boomer I apologize but overall it's the worst generation ever. Locusts.
+--- 21935754
+>>21930475
+>Where do you anons draw the line?
+When it's a song, duh. If they really want that poetry category they can go and write it normally themselves.
+--- 21935781
+>>21935754
+A Noble Prize for Music would destroy any credibility the committee has left. They'll get shit on if they award it to classical composers and within a decade they'll be handing out the award to pop stars who don't even write their own songs or rappers perceived to be "thoughtful" because they only mention "muh dick" once for every 5 lines about "muh poverty."
+--- 21935807
+People pretend the standards for music in this century is equivalent to the standards back when poets actually made music as a standard. There's an obvious divorce between great poetry and popular music that's been prevalent decades before Dylan. He certainly was not a proper counterargument or exception like I'm sure there is somewhere like with everyother overlap of genres. Poetry is music made with words with sometimes instruments being suitable companions. Songs are music made with instruments sometimes with suitable words that sound poetic and rhyme but are almost entirely dependant on the music for their poetic qualities. Most song lyrics do not stand by themselves as poetry, otherwuse you could recite them without knowing the tune and they'd still be decent.
+Anyone can enjoy Kubla Khan just by reading but you need music to carry pop singers.
+--- 21935816
+>>21935781
+Uh huh, don't care. I read literature. Get your normie vibrating air away from my pages.
+--- 21935892
+Honestly, DAMN winning the pulitzer was probably the bigger head scratcher
+--- 21935922
+>>21935816
+>I read literature
+Apparently not very well given your shit reading comprehension.
+--- 21935928
+>>21935816
+P.S. Poets are elgible for the Nobel Prize, retard.
+--- 21935946
+>>21935922
+>given your shit reading comprehension.
+I read you perfectly, I simply don't give a shit of what you're whining about.
+>>21935781
+>A Noble Prize for Music would destroy any credibility the committee has left.
+I don't care about music awards or the credibility for an oeganisation as a whole, every award ceremony has shit credibility. And these prizes always seem to retain enough credibility to keep giving out STEM awards.
+>They'll get shit on if they award it to classical composers
+And?
+>and within a decade they'll be handing out the award to pop stars who don't even write their own songs or rappers perceived to be "thoughtful" because they only mention "muh dick" once for every 5 lines about "muh poverty."
+Cool, still not literature. Boohoo nigger. Blacks can have their shitty category if it cleans up mine.
+
+Leave my books alone normie.
+--- 21935952
+>>21935928
+Then those poets can get it with poetry, not music.
+--- 21936046
+>>21935946
+>MY READING COMPREHENSION ISN'T BAD!
+It is. Calm your tits, sperglord. Kek.
+--- 21936049
+There's no refuge here. This is more like an autism battleground where you go to grind off the parts of yourself you hate. Try /out/ or /trv/
+--- 21936057
+>>21935952
+>didn't know poets win the Nobel for Lit
+I get you're retarded but are you ESL as well?
+--- 21936119
+>>21936057
+Wtf are you on about? Poetry is literature, music isn't. Fuck off. If musicians want a literature prize they fan write actual powtry instead of song lyrics.
+--- 21936171
+>>21936119
+I'll make it clearer for you because you suck at reading:
+>If they really want that poetry category they can go and write it normally themselves.
+A music award would just make everything even worse (I'm being polite enough to ignore your poor writing and that you are unaware poets win the Nobel Prize).
+>I READ LITERATURE AND IT'S BETTER THAN MUSIC!
+Your reading comprehension is shit (my comment had nothing to do with defending musicians winning literary prizes and pointed out creating such a prize would further reduce the standing akin to giving it to Bob Dylan). Given that it's obvious you suck at reading.
+>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
+Your reading comprehension is shit and you're also a sperg.
+>POETRY IS LITERATURE AND MUSIC ISN'T
+Yes, retard. Yes.
+--- 21936209
+>>21930287 (OP)
+We thought Leonard Cohen was more deserving.
+--- 21936241
+>>21935688
+>Personally, I literally do not know a single Bob Dylan song (beyond the songs The Band covered, which I know of because I listen to The Band, and those tend to be their weaker offerings)
+Based The Band enjoyer. "You shall be released".
+--- 21936246
+>>21936171
+How would it make it worse for my literature category? You don't elaborate, I'm not illiterate.
+>IT JUST IS OKAY
+--- 21936252
+>>21936246
+And I never said poetry wasn't literature my whole argument is songs are more their own category than just literature and straight up poetry can stay in the literature category. You're the one misreading me.
+--- 21936265
+>>21935747
+>I can't wait until that generation dies out. If you're a boomer I apologize but overall it's the worst generation ever.
+Their popular music is better, and you can't deny it. The songs of today are too much materialistic for my tastes.
+Their religiosity (spirituality?) even if misguided was still miles above the almost total rule of matter we live today.
+--- 21936268
+>>21930287 (OP)
+Ew
+--- 21936273
+>>21935781
+>or rappers perceived to be "thoughtful" because they only mention "muh dick" once for every 5 lines about "muh poverty."
+Leave Kendrick ALONE!!!
+--- 21936296
+>>21936265
+their music was different because of the unique conditions it was created in
+--- 21936302
+>>21936265
+Their dogshit culture was the direct antecedent to the downfall of our modern culture you retard.
+--- 21936310
+>>21936246
+>How would it make it worse for my literature category?
+>I'm not illiterate.
+Pick one.
+>>21936252
+>SONGS AND LITERATURE ARE DIFFERENT
+No shit. Your argument is simplistic and dumb.
+>NO YOU!
+Your writing is ESL level and you started an argument because your reading comprehension is shit. Simple as.
+--- 21936320
+>>21936302
+>Their dogshit culture was the direct antecedent to the downfall of our modern culture you retard.
+But do you agree that this foreshadow was still something better than what we have today, right?
+
+Sometimes I think our spirit was never so low (which, of course, isn't true, but still).
+--- 21936327
+>>21936265
+This >>21936302 and their "spirtuality" was devoid of self-reflection and largely reactionary. Read The Electrick Kool-Aide Acid Test. If you take their side after that there's no hope for you and you're part of the problem.
+--- 21936333
+>>21930298
+>its contrarian shitstirring and saltimining to agree with correct opinions
+This website is so absolutely fucking retarded.
+--- 21936334
+>>21936310
+You only describe how the song category gets shat on, not literature. You are the illiterate one. You fail to provide a reason why I, who only cares about the literature prize, would not want to filter out pop stars into a songwriting prize.
+--- 21936341
+>>21936320
+>But do you agree that this foreshadow was still something better than what we have today, right?
+No. It sounds like you're buying into Boomer nostalgia and signaling you're above your peers. It's textbook boomer marketing ("the young kids just don't get it!"). Next thing you'll be telling us that going home when the streetlights came on is better than having a cellphone. More soul.
+>>21936334
+>NO YOU! REALLY!
+God, if the only thing you have to add to the conversation is that music and literature are different artforms just shut up.
+--- 21936348
+>>21936341
+You have still failed to spell it out if I am misreading you. How does creating a new category to limit who can be accepted into my preferred one, ruin my preferred category?
+--- 21936352
+>>21936320
+No I don't agree with that you disingenuous prick.
+--- 21936354
+>>21936341
+You agree music and literature are different artforms so why do you hate creating separate prizes for them?
+--- 21936361
+>>21936320
+Even if it was preferable (it's overrated boomershit), that fact it preludes to the downfall means it's unsustainable and it'll just repeat again if we attempt to revive it. Insanity definition.
+--- 21936379
+>>21936348
+If a music category were to be created it's likely that it would quickly succumb to popular tastes. Literature is less democratized than music (probably due to the difference in accessibility of the mediums) and it's likely that opening up the Nobels with a music prize would have an affect on the literature prize (bastardizing it ever further than it is now). However, given the trend of what's showcased and marketed in literature as it stands today we're likely to see even more underserving people eventually given the nod.
+>>21936354
+It's a shallow point. See above. We're probably in for an extended politicized discussion about whether or not the Nobel is relevant (which is probably why they went with the impulse to give one to Bob Dylan in the first place).
+--- 21936392
+>>21936379
+>If a music category were to be created it's likely that it would quickly succumb to popular tastes. Literature is less democratized than music (probably due to the difference in accessibility of the mediums) and it's likely that opening up the Nobels with a music prize would have an affect on the literature prize (bastardizing it ever further than it is now). However, given the trend of what's showcased and marketed in literature as it stands today we're likely to see even more underserving people eventually given the nod.
+I don't agree it would come back to bite literature like that, seeing as we already get shitty choices now and then. I don't think it would get that much worse. Music is far more accesible to consume comoared to even trash literature since you havevto sit still and pay attention to form ideas from words, you canct just vibe along like with music. The plebs are more likely to be pay attention to audio trash than printed trash. So I don't think letting the blacks have their pony show will start putting more authors of stuff 'white fragility' and 'eat pray love clone #4567' in our path.
+>It's a shallow point.
+It's the principle, they're not the same so they don't get the same prizes.
+I am clearly not illiterate, I just disagree.
+--- 21936762
+>>21936352
+>No I don't agree with that you disingenuous prick.
+Disingenuous?? 
+I wanna run away with the Grateful Dead, anon. I would sober them up though.
+--- 21936776
+>>21930287 (OP)
+He was so much older then. He's younger than that now.
+--- 21936794
+>>21936776
+A proper diet with the right nutrients for ypur skin counteracts the sun 'aging' it. Like don't stay out all day but there's heaos of tanned oeople witj good skin in their 60s.
+--- 21937338
+You can't just create another category of Nobel prizes. The will is already written and known. The only new prize (economy) is actually the central bank's prize to his memory, and not a real Nobel prize.

lit/21930981.txt

@@ -138,3 +138,256 @@ I would love a link to it when it's done
 --- 21934259
 >>21934124
 In a serene and dimly lit room, a patient lies on a massage table, eyes closed, with a hint of a smile. Doctor Lee, an imposing yet gentle figure, stands over the patient, preparing to perform a powerful chiropractic adjustment. Soft light spills onto the scene from a single source, casting dramatic shadows that accentuate the muscles and contours of Doctor Lee's arms and the patient's relaxed body. The Nikon D850 captures the intimate moment in stunning detail, the rich colors and textures revealing the anticipation and trust between patient and practitioner.
+--- 21935009
+>>21930981 (OP)
+It is the quiet vale in which all hope reminisces of the past loving memories touching my youth, my arms and my peers in a strength of courage able to convey every emotion succumbed to the age of time.
+--- 21935026
+>>21930981 (OP)
+Gorgeous braids
+--- 21935041
+Now the account of how Being produces the disjunction cannot be given as an account of how we can arrive at the disjunctions through dialectic, which is what Hegel gave, since this presupposes dialectic and confuses our perspective on Being with Being itself. The answer of how unity-difference arises from Being cannot therefore be that "Being wants to determine itself whether it is unified or different" because it is not Being qua Being but our own thought that has a need to determine these things. And it cannot be that unity implies difference or that difference implies unity, because these implications are again due to thought and because you must then presuppose either unity to get difference or difference to get unity. The actual answer is of course that the disjunction and Being are the same and dependent on each other, and therefore supposing one supposes the other. So to make this answer satisying to the intellect, we must inquire what makes Being selfsame with its disjunctions, but not by observing that we can only cognize Being only through the disjunctions or that Being raises the question of what it is, because this is biased towards thought. We must prove that the existence of Being contains the disjunction (since it is universally granted that "it is", although we could from an ultimate perspective also take the disjunction as prior) without appealing to the dialectic itself as proof, for dialectic cannot force Being to do anything. The only satisfying account therefore can be that the disjunction is contained in Being as part of its essence, which is different from stating that Being implies or produces the disjunction because the latter requires a presupposition of dialectic or making process prior to Being. Therefore it is enough to examine Being and find the disjunction in its essence in order to show how Being produces the disjunction. But this supposes the univocity of Being, since the only thing we can analyze to analyze Being is its manifestations to us. So the first demonstration of all must be the univocity of Being, which will rely on categorics and logic because it is not a demonstration about Being but about what we experience being being qua being. By univocity of Being I mean that when we cognize something about what we have individuated we are cognizing something about being itself. This differs from Scotus's notion of univocity only in that he distinguished between an instatiation of a property of God and the property as it belongs to God himself (i.e. his assertion that a property of Being predicated of a particular is the same property of Being as it is attributed to Being itself is the same as the assertion that a particular instance of a property in perception is perception of the property as it belongs to Being) but this distinguishing is not important or ultimately true. But then there are infinite aspects of Being, so we must limit ourselves to that which is eternal and necessary (from our perspective.)
+--- 21935089
+I just had a very bad break up so I wrote the beginning of something as an emotional release. I do not write regularly at all, so it is shit, but I could post it anyway if you guys want me to
+--- 21935114
+>>21930981 (OP)
+Where can I find women like this? Europe, I'm assuming.
+--- 21935379
+>>21935089
+you know what, I don't care, I'm posting it anyway
+
+Through the lily entombed garden, Michael carefully stepped. Such cautiousness was a mystery even to himself, as the grounds were bereft of a single living soul. In another existence, the Avalon estate once brimmed with noise. Not obnoxious noise, but a subtle, joyous buzzing noise, the kind of noise that arouses the deepest giddiness in even the most bitter and coldest of men.
+
+Such noise was now but a long faded photograph that only existed in the minds of those dead or forgotten. So what was he afraid of? His scar-marked palm grasped the neck of an innocent looking lily. With the slightest force it crumbled into a pathetic thing. A quiet scoff erupted from the middle aged man, the slight smile quickly melting into ennui, as it always did. In the echoing chambers of his mind, a peculiar idea overcame him. Why must it be that the most resilient foundation of a garden was the dirt, rather than the azaleas, or the orchids? Every dazzling strand of being that arose from its earthly mother, doomed to die in such a short time. But mother always stood her ground.
+
+A sigh emerged from Michael, as he sat on an old stone that was more like a mirror than anything. He was more tired than he thought. It was peculiar, for he had no reason to be so exhausted. Day after day, he made little use of existence, frittering away the years and becoming something that could barely be called living anymore. He had the income to be able to remain dormant and languish away in his isolated fortress, he had enough for seven lifetimes. In spite of his inactivity and laziness, which often gives way to prodigality, he was in fact an exceedingly frugal man. A man of his intelligence could easily use his wisdom in the realm of investment and expand his fortune even further, but Michael preferred the simplicity of stagnation. He had been cheated before by the haze of chance, and he was not a man who made mistakes twice. He had himself, and that was all he needed, or ever wanted.
+--- 21935869
+Yet something still keeps me glued to this individual conscience, this solitary ego. If I had no desire to hold onto my conscience, this existence would mean nothing to me. I could drop out in the next second without any hesitation. But the instinct of human self-preservation is so strong that we can barely manage to do away with ourselves, no matter how agonizing living with ourselves may get. Humans love their own prisons. They cling to their conscience as if it were life itself. Even though in the grand scheme of things, life will go on just the same whether we are alive or not, we cannot comprehend the thought of dying for too long, and if one can, they have already resigned themselves to a metaphysical death, a feat few are capable of achieving. The ancient ascetics could do this, and there are few if not zero of them left on earth. I understand what death pertains for me from a logical perspective (when I die, I will not exist, just as I did not exist before I existed) yet I have not resigned myself to death completely, either in metaphysical terms or physical terms. I still cannot fathom even in my darkest thoughts what death would be; I cannot understand nothingness and I am not sure I ever will. I have not resigned myself to death in physical terms either. I am still in favor of continuing my life of course, even though the life I live now is nothing but a casket that carries a corpse of dead dreams. But I myself am not a corpse, and this makes a difference to me, simply because the instinct for self-preservation is stronger than my dreams.
+--- 21936156
+>>21935379
+This is very good anon, you should continue this work, I mean really pursue it. If you haven't already, brainstorm the arc of the story, draft an outline, really go to work on it. I know in my most recent breakup, it occupied my mind relentlessly for weeks, time seemed to dilate, and I was miserable. An emotional project like this would be the perfect outlet, I hope you carry on with it.
+--- 21936411
+>>21932981
+Yeah this paragraph's got more of the good stuff I was into when reading the first post. Especially loved the brief section with the violinist
+--- 21936609
+Just finished a translation of this poem (not mine)
+
+Le Ciel de Nuit
+
+Le ciel est si profond qu'il fait rêver d'éternité.
+Ce n'est pas le ciel bleu du jour qui touche le cœur,
+C'est l'abîme impénétrable où la pensée est jetée,
+Le ciel de nuit avec ses étoiles, son silence, sa splendeur.
+
+Dans cette paix on sent quelque chose qui domine,
+Le cœur s'agrandit, on s'ouvre aux songes, aux désirs,
+On se sent si petit, et l'on rêve à la fuite divine
+Vers des mondes plus purs, plus heureux, illuminés de sourires.
+
+Oh ! qui pourrait traduire, avec des mots humains,
+Le charme infini de ces nuits qui semblent des rêves,
+Où l'on ne sait trop si l'on est vivant ou si l'on est mort,
+Où l'on est seul avec soi-même, où l'on se sent peut-être près de Dieu ?
+
+C'est un moment béni où l'âme est en extase,
+Où l'on oublie la terre, les soucis, les douleurs,
+Où l'on croit voir l'infini, les étoiles comme des phrases
+De musique céleste, qui berce les cœurs.
+
+Le ciel de nuit, c'est l'harmonie, la poésie,
+C'est la prière muette, c'est la contemplation,
+C'est l'immensité, l'éternité, l'infini,
+C'est le sublime mystère qui hante les âmes des amants.
+
+
+My translation 
+
+The Night Sky (my translation, note it’s intentionally loose. )
+
+thou deep Eve that evokes eternity, 
+of which the pallid blue cannot reflect, 
+this vast abyss of thought’s infinity, 
+where coursing light from silent stars collect.
+
+in quietude, where mystery has reign,
+The heart expanding with dreams, yearning so,
+One feels so small, coursing through God’s domain,
+with purer joy of purer heart aglow.
+
+i cannot put to words with a man’s tongue,
+The endless charm of Night, half wake half-dream,
+where none can tell when life or death’s begun,
+where one can dwell with God within the mean. 
+
+past, past the many moments my soul soars,
+forgetting earth unburdened by its pain, 
+another world another sea implores,
+the stars singing unknown songs with sweet strain.
+
+refrain, refrain, refrain, til night with all,
+ev’ry poems soul, ev’ry secret pray’r,
+coursing, collects to contemplation’s call,
+to know the harmony that lover’s share.
+--- 21936623
+>>21930981 (OP)
+I don't feel I've read enough to start writing yet. I'm gonna give it another 4 years or so of reading at least a book a week before I even try.
+--- 21936629
+>>21930981 (OP)
+Kind of sorta yesterday but this is my most recent exposition. I expect quite the blowback from this
+
+https://adolfstalin.substack.com/p/a-short-word-about-the-mind-of-modern
+--- 21936630
+>>21930981 (OP)
+I've never written anything in my entire life.
+--- 21936631
+>>21936623
+What have you been reading/want to read? I'm 30 now and have been actively reading for about 7 years now. Personally, I enjoy Tolstoy the most but would like to be able to write like E.M. Forster. I think when I compare my writing back then to now, I have improved, but really you should try writing no matter what. The act itself can help you to learn, just jot down a few paragraphs here and there or a short story, even just to have a reference in the future.
+--- 21936640
+I wrote a page where an arthoe yells at me for not watching enough artistic movies and a short anecdote about a spergy friend I used to have, but I won't post them here
+--- 21936975
+>>21936156
+Thanks anon, I will
+--- 21937038
+- God doesn't make mistakes.
+- Who sad he doesn't make mistakes? asked the Notfriend turning towards the Dwarf.
+- But, but... He's perfect. He can't make imperfect things. He can only make perfect things. 
+- Well, he made you, didn't He?
+- ... 
+- You're small, big eared and bad teeth, like a rat... You're not perfect, aren't you?
+- 'scuze me? I believe I have big ears and straight teeth, snapped back the Dwarf, despite the Notfriend being very serious, and clearly showing that he understood and accepted the argument. But the Notfriend fell on his thoughts with his mouth between-open since he uttered the words.
+- I got it! I think I got it! said with a mysterious voice. Wait! Ah! I lost it. Oh, no! I got it again... Or I believe I got a part of it. Look... if you find a divine person they will take your deformities as beautiful things. You are the right size for they, your ears are proper size for they, you are the right size tall for they. But me, me, I can see through you and I can see your defects. Now why do I know this now? The Notfriend sighed puzzled.
+--- 21937325
+bump
+--- 21937341
+ehh
+--- 21937597
+I do not know when my fever began in earnest. I am sure it had been bubbling up inside of me for many twisted months. There was no surefire moment when it turned from an egg to a blastocyst to an embryo to a fetus to a tumor. One can never sense when these things shift, but try as I might to dissuade myself, when I look back, I think of a few characteristic sights and sounds, a few pockets of my memory which must have meant something. Marshall Library; Crawford hall; an ebony table under my gaze; an open page of British Medical Journal, the December 1998 volume. Sounds, too: sniffles, shuffles, throat clearing, dust clearing, shelf clearing, anything to hold off the penetrating quiet. Unlucky silences always seemed to follow me. 
+ Why was I there? I, of all people, would know what happens to poor Phineas. Everyone knows what happens to poor Phineas when he slams that tamping iron down. The chain of connections I would usually make in my lectures was that the tamping iron hit the granite, the granite sparked, the spark ignited the charge, the charge exploded, the explosion propelled the tamping iron through Phineas’ handsome skull, entering his left cheek, destroying most of his left frontal lobe, and leaving the top of his skull with an entourage of fragments to follow. It was all simple enough: physics and anatomy were sufficient to explain it; one could throw in a little psychological speculation if they really felt like it, although history would always bring up the rear and destabilize the facts at hand.
+They thought the poor fellow would barely live, and he didn’t… he coughed out a teaspoon of brain matter, had his head encased by the doctor’s wraps, and one day was awfully different. Phineas had died and Phineas replaced him, but no one could say where the new one came from and where the old one went. He became a coach driver in Chile. This was all elementary, all quotidian formalities I would tell the new students to entice them. 
+I had never found myself resorting to such debasing fantasies as this. The Ballad of Phineas never existed, of course. There was only a scholarly medical article in my hand, citable, readable, with an abstract, a specified intent, peer-reviewed. Those bastards didn’t care for the worries on Phineas’ mind. 
+I hadn’t even read past the first sentence. I was staring at a cock-eyed syllable when mean pictures clouded my head. Something wonderful lived in Phineas’ world, his mind could be anything anyone wanted it to be. I felt it was arguably my place to insert an impotent fantasy, to fill his husk with my own latent fears. But perhaps this is what did it. This was the misstep, the catalyst of this fever which has never quite left me, which has never left off grieving me…
+--- 21937608
+>>21934124
+Comfy, I like it.
+--- 21937666
+>>21930981 (OP)
+“They claimed that she was too young and unpractised in theology to be the Soulkeeper. She asked the council if they thought Soulkeepers were born as adults; they declined to reply.”
+--- 21937759
+>>21931062
+City ornithologist instead of old pensioner diviner
+NGMI
+
+(1/2)
+he written word had still eluded him after so many years— yet it did not stop him from reading. He sat on a bench now, facing eastward, letting the sun cut his eyes and warm his face. He removed his mask, but only to himself, mounting a title of Witness. The Witness opened the birdseed, the rock doves were already near— he began to cast the seed about. He had split his duty of pullurius with the city; She to house and present them, he to feed. Together they engaged in their alectryomantic ritual. He had many nodes from which to divine, he had learned the patterns of the flocks and the seasons and their whereabouts and timings. His eyes were slower now in his age, he preferred solely to watch the doves, as the sparrows were fast, gregarious, combative towards the pigeons, he disliked their engagements and found himself lost in their quarrels rather than his work. The seeds were not ordered in letters or phrases as men passed and past did, nor did he choose a cock. The doves were of the city, they carried Her breath and realized Her essence. To use a traditional bird of the land would carry weight too ancestral for his sight, those birds had grown from the mud of the earth itself. Cities were new, and pigeons were new with them, grown and adapted and accustomed. So the rock doves carry the city for they matched her cadence, and no other would suffice. Most of the seed upon the ground carried the identities of men and women within them, of the city. Crushed shell remnants, portions, motes, elicited more that of individual thoughts, a memory, a spurt of a child. He knew the birds as well, by their coats. Not the same each time, but gazing long enough could see the spirit in it’s place in the ones before him. Most were ideas, indefinite forms, abstracts, but some pigeons carried the secret names of men. As they pecked at the seed, he saw the events unfold for the day. Each seed a man, to be taken by a peck was to decide his inclination for the day, his soul to reborn amongst the feed of tomorrow as he fall stagnant to the will of the other. The dove of avarice had already nabbed a few. He saw them— toady, flattering their superiors, breaking their backs for a moment to stab and claw their way to the vault, to make out with the gold for their own sake. He saw their anger at the daily denial of their reward, anger spent at the bars and later at the throats and already bruised bodies of the children. Another well fed bird, survival, by other names, made her way amongst the grain. She was missing the toes on a foot, nubs remained— an eye on the mirror gouged. She lived in all the wounded, at least one other sister was typical to flock. He saw more of the seed give themselves up to novelties, to smack, to a new candidate, to the rot, to love.
+--- 21937763
+>>21937759
+(2/2)
+Some, he could tell, were nursing young. Men who were taken and turned in the crop from themselves to milk he lost— delivered to squabs of ideas new and old in their nest, outside his square upon the pavement. The City keeps some for Her own. Eastward faced-ness was to give the seeds their shadows. Doves would peck at the approximate, occasionally missing and hitting the black streaks, before becoming distracted and consuming a neighbor. Tall seeds, deep shadows, let them hide in plain site, in hopes to be ignored or forgotten. If they had been granted that blessing, let us hope further that the wind blows them to the soil where they may take root and grow themselves unshackled, actualizing their ideals, spreading more seed. 
+Ah, he’s here, he’s been showing up more and more frequently as of late. Nape and bib blackened, head ghosted. Pied in the two from the chest below. Formal, if thanatognomonic. Those eaten by the psychopomp are not cast about on the next day.
+Another, of the same ilk, but this one carries the name of a man. An instrument-crafter it seems. The bird lolled about, circling the outside of the feed, trying to hide from the eye of the Witness. Too poor for him, he thought, for he carried his brilliance in the bar morph of a red. The dove gave up on his evasiveness, and scattered his peers as he snatched a young woman and flew about his way. 
+A first gust blew, and rolled another, below his legs, to a nearby puddle, beneath the muck and outside the view of the birds. 
+He saw them all. The Witness grew restless gazing at his daily violence, and at once sent the birds away, for he did not wish to see any longer.
+
+Automatic writing btw- please forgive the repetitions and related mess
+--- 21937764
+>>21930981 (OP)
+That was the first sign, at least the first one I noticed: that people started taking pride in their diseases. It was all part of the performance: glorification of the diseases, of the illnesses, of the mental incapacities, of the inability to mature. Those diseases were the only things left from which people could build identities. It was not unlike how the excesses of global capitalism had rendered cities of all shapes and sizes worldwide into redundant, indistinct grids of human activity. The same forces which were erasing geography were also erasing personality, and all that remained were the performances of the mentally ill, which includes us all.
+--- 21937821
+>>21935041
+Sorry buddy, I think you missed the point of H-man, but good try regardless
+
+>>21933999
+Good language but trying to follow you here- what do you mean by beachhead? As parallel or perpendicular to the flow? 
+
+--
+I came to the door; my door. To the bedroom, nearly 7AM now— I heard the gentle rains on the other side. I had brought some of the mist inside with me, still a few miles down in the bottom of my lungs, heavy. I kept it on purpose, was light on the exhales, let it bring some relief in preparation. I grabbed the door, felt myself on the other side— I opened it.
+
+The windows were half-revealed, light coming through like dim concrete, blues of the morning valent in the reveal, time was slowing now. Clothes strung about everywhere, bowls of food once wet now dry and inert, no mold grows here. Gray sheets, gray pillows, gray comforter, bunched up in the corner. Chargers, folders, pen and paper from some half-hearted midnight composition of formless thoughts, pretending a pretense of apotheotic creativity— perhaps a midnight scenery change could let the ideas flow free— instead fruitless. In the center, on the floor, carpeted, sprawled out, was a corpse. Myself. Cozy, no putrid scents, instead preserved and baked by the air, skin sloughed and carried away through the vents, surely organs and muscle dessicate were carried off in the same way, leaving just the bones and ligaments. Wearing a sweatshirt from many years ago, face down, laying on one arm, face turned away to the north, one leg bringing itself in to fetal, the other pushed back like a leap from the wall made ground, heel and toe pointed to the doorway. The last arm was detached, in front of the north-head, free floating under the bed, out of our reach. I spent a moment looking at myself, quiet. I wanted to weep. I closed the door, crouched down, and crawled to him— on my elbows and knees, silent, avoiding the touch of any stray articles. I was low now, face level with the back of his head— I sat myself up, gazing over. I picked him up, so light now, less than air, and cradled his head to my chest, now facing me, turned away from his turning away, returned to the South. Ivan holding Ivan. Father of self, son of time. Still without tears. I told him I was sorry for leaving him for so long, letting him take each beating, shouldering the weight of himself without another, dying beneath my bed alone while I slept quietly above, fading for an eternity before my return from the ceiling to the floor. It’s time to go home, I said, you’ve worked so hard for so long, even in your rest you remained for me, waiting. I’m here now, and I’m never leaving. You’ve made it, we’ve made it. I love you. 
+
+The tears came now— his. Small drops from the sockets. Above me came down the rains. I exhaled the last of the morning mist through him— he sighed, we smiled.
+
+Several months later, I finally grew tired enough to sleep. I did not dream.
+--- 21937887
+Some really good writing in this thread. Wish I could write half as well as some of you. I guess I'll just have to take it as motivation to keep improving.
+
+-----------------
+
+For the third night in a row Sebastian, leaning out the window of his apartment, cigarette in hand, was unable to sleep. He knew it wasn’t healthy, but was unsure how long one could go without sleep before it got dangerous. To clear his mind he had decided to go for a walk after his smoke. Then maybe sleep could come. From his window, Tokoy sprawled out before him like an ocean of concrete and steel. Even now at this late hour nearly every building’s windows and signs were lit up, assuring him that he was not alone, that there were others awake as well. Maybe Tokyo itself was, too.
+
+Once outside, he headed down the dimly lit street he walked nearly everyday to his job. He’d come to Japan two years ago and found himself teaching English—only because it was an easy job for foreigners to get. Just until he got settled and then move on to something else, maybe get a master’s degree, he had told himself. Days had turned into months, then years, and now he found himself stuck in the same routine. It was an odd feeling, facing down the days, unable to distinguish one from the next, an endless cycle, a loop on repeat. Call it ennui or possibly something else entirely. 
+
+He took a turn and the familiar homes, apartments, and conbinis around his street gave way to buildings of some unknown street he’d never walked. Up ahead he saw a pocket of nature: a small park housing a Shinto shrine. These areas which were so common throughout Tokyo were oases of calm and stillness in the crowded and artificial city, even the air felt fresher and wind cooler once you passed under the torii gate, as if it were not just a small enclave, less than a park really, with some trees, but a forest at the foot of a mountain, or somewhere the kami still lived, untouched yet by the hands of encroaching human civilization. Naturally, he didn’t believe in kami or anything at all to do with shinto really. He’d grown up Catholic, but had long since lapsed. Yet even he couldn’t help but feel, once he’d crossed over, something—a force or power, maybe some would say the divine—which imposed upon him a since of solemnity.
+--- 21937995
+>>21930981 (OP)
+>inb4 you read, I'm very aware this will be shit, its my first draft and I'm not an experienced writer, please bare with me. The story has both Hindi and English, so that might make it slightly weird to read too, I'll translate some of it, but I wanna see how English anons receive this story too.
+
+“Behind the school, in the forest” Raghu exclaimed. “I saw them there, the large mound? with the opening, like a cave” Raghu looks with quivering eyes to his bunk mates, pupils searching for belief in claims.
+
+“Fine, we’ll go and check na, fir dekh lenge kya hai” Aditya, from the corner of the gathering shouts, “Waise bhi, I don’t want to attend class tomorrow, kal kundu sir ka maths hai, ugh” Raghu smiles with relief, and approaches Aditya. (We'll go check and we'll see for ourselves)
+
+“Aditya I knew you will get it!” 
+“I don’t believe you, pata nahi tu kya fek raha hai, but dekhne mai kya harz?” (I dont know if you are lying or not, but whats the harm in checking)
+Raghu was slightly taken aback, have expected something else. Although he obliged, Raghu himself would not have believed had he not been there, in the mound behind the school. 
+
+The next day, Raghu and the rest of the room awakens to the bell. Raghu hurries with his daily routine to head to class. The school is a short walk from the hostel building. 
+
+“What periods do we have to today? when do you think we can sneak out?” Raghu hovers over Aditya who is checking their timetable.
+
+“lets see, 8:30 we have P.E and after that….” Aditya squints over the Almanac. “That's Kundu sirs period!” Raghu points to the next Math’s period. 
+“Arre that’s good na, Kundu toh sojaega. He’ll be sleeping half the lecture” 
+
+Aditya closes the Almanac, and Raghu understands what comes next.
+
+Physical Education rolls around, its basically a free period to play and have fun, but the P.E teachers make sure its miserable enough to not be too fun. 
+
+
+Cherry Reddy, The lisping coach, makes the kids who misbehave run 7 rounds around the field. 
+
+“Aditya I swear to god, Cherry sir will make me want to run away from this school” Raghu huffs and puffs while completing his rounds.
+
+“Good, in a way he’s making sure you’re prepared, how will you run away from the school if you can’t run here” Aditya laughs, who too is out of breath. 
+
+“Good point, but dekh its almost 8:30, we should go” Raghu eyes towards the thick Forests that lay just across the play field. “Yeah, wait for Cherry sir to look away, and then let’s book it” Aditya gazes onto the exit points, while not physically facing them, Raghu can tell he is staring upon the forest. 
+
+The two boys fend of their classmates inquiry, and avoid being sighted by Cherry Sir. They come upon wired fences, abundantly taller than themselves. 
+Raghu remembers the cut in the wires where he squeezed in through, and motions Aditya over to it.
+--- 21938002
+>>21937995
+Both of them slowly venture on, Raghu reveals the markings he left to find his way to the mound. 
+
+“How is it getting darker already, its like 8:50 am” Aditya looks on the cover of the trees, they overlap and create heavy barriers for light, the deeper they venture the darker the pines seem to become. 
+
+“You’re not Native to Dehradun are you” Raghu asks while navigating.
+“No, how did you know?” 
+“You seem new to trees” Raghu smiles as they venture onwards, following markings on trees, and Ribbons tied to branches. 
+
+“You marked these trees, where did u even get a knife” Aditya inspects the cut markings. 
+
+“My father gave me this swiss army knife, a while back I found out its a knock off, but it worked fine. When I first was enrolled here, I had to hide it to get it in, the knife and other things are kept around the mound itself, I think I put some chips over there too” Raghu keeps navigating through the dark green of the forest.
+
+“You came prepared didn’t you, although its a bit unbelievable”
+
+“I know, but I swear, I saw the lights and-” Raghu pauses as he reaches over the final markings, they had arrived to the mound. 
+
+Aditya was in slight awe at the changes in the terrain, it didn’t seem real, too interesting for a place like this. The mound was Unnatural without a doubt, but it blended in well enough that it possibly wasn’t discovered, perhaps it was an old structure once. The mound was solid, meaning however it was made, it had been there for a while. 
+
+Raghu point’s to a small bush, “Behind that bush, I hid my bag and other things over there!” And surely enough, as the two brushed around the leaves, they found a pale red bag, full of haphazardly organized items. 
+
+The two got swimming goggles and two torches. “Do you think these would help with the dirt?” Aditya puts the goggles on, “For the eyes? Yes, for everywhere else? No” Raghu and Aditya approach the mound.
+
+“This was the entrance” Raghu puts his hand on the soil fallen in front.
+“was?”
+“Some soil fell down I think, and now its blocked up a bit, the entrance was already very narrow, it only got wider as I went in, but now its blocked” Raghu 
+pulls out a small sized shovel. 
+“So that's why the gardener has been complaining about his shovel” Aditya and Raghu prepare to dig the soil out.
+
+Taking turns with the shovel, however inefficient the tool was, helped in clearing the soil out. 
+
+“Are you sure that we wont just get trapped in, with more soil falling off?” Aditya digs and looks over to Raghu
+
+“Well this soil fell from the top of the mound, if you look up there's nothing more for it to give, and I have been in the cave a bit, it goes in deeper and the top seems very solid” Raghu seemed unfazed.
+
+>Feedback is appreciated, I'm half Indian and have spent some summers in Dehradun with family, this is more like a fictional feel of the place I felt as a child.
+--- 21938013
+>>21937995
+>>21938002
+I understand that the formatting might also be off putting? Again fairly new to writing, I just have a bunch of stories in my head, that I feel I should put out in some form or the other. Recently after reading Ficciones by Jorge Luis Borges, I realized short stories could be it if I cannot put out anything full length. This is obviously the first draft, I don't have a lot of direction on this but I wanted to share this here, what's the harm. Apologies for any spelling mistakes in the draft too, I'm retarded.

lit/21931002.txt

@@ -125,3 +125,164 @@ While "Call me Ishmael." is a fantastic first sentence, it's one of the few inst
 --- 21934448
 >>21934295
 Got MK Ultra'd pretty hard at Harvard
+--- 21934461
+>>21931002 (OP)
+the opening passage to the sound and the fury
+--- 21934617
+It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.
+--- 21934670
+>>21931002 (OP)
+>the best opening phrases of all time
+
+Christopher had his first menstruation when he was about fourteen; he was an 'early bloomer' as his Mother had said with some degree of pride, and the very next day he was taken to Doctor Shoemaker to be tried for tampons and to be fitted with special underpants.
+--- 21934889
+>>21934395
+The Myth of Sisyphus
+
+Haven't read that much of him but from what I know Sisyphus and The Stranger delve the most into absurdism, which is the main theme of his philosophy.
+--- 21934914
+The Stranger and Notes from Underground both have pretty great cold opens.
+Homer's opening call to the Muses, of course.
+--- 21934933
+He speaks in your voice, American, and there's a shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful.
+--- 21934949
+A screaming comes across the sky.
+--- 21935067
+>>21931002 (OP)
+Call me stately, plump Buck Mulligan screaming across the stairhead, bearing a bowl of lather the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.
+--- 21935125
+>>21931002 (OP)
+>Today it seems to me providential that Fate should have chosen Braunau on the Inn as my birthplace.
+--- 21935131
+>>21934433
+Well in the original it's not meant to be nuanced. It's supposed to be plainspoken.
+--- 21935134
+>>21935131
+it seems to me the implication is that his name is not, in fact, Ishmael
+--- 21935143
+>>21935134
+I dunno what to tell you. Why would he lie?
+--- 21935145
+Let us go then, you and I,
+When the evening is spread out against the sky
+Like a patient etherized upon a table;
+Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
+The muttering retreats
+Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
+And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
+Streets that follow like a tedious argument
+Of insidious intent
+To lead you to an overwhelming question ...
+Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
+Let us go and make our visit.
+--- 21935153
+>>21935143
+he felt that the name was fitting. aren't all of the Biblical names in the book carefully selected for their relevance to the characters?
+--- 21935159
+>>21935153
+Not really, plenty are called dumb sailors names like flask and stubb
+--- 21935167
+>>21931002 (OP)
+LOOK AT THE PICTURE
+SEE THE SKULL
+(Francis E. Dec, only hope for a future)
+--- 21935168
+>>21935159
+i specified the Biblical names for a reason you illiterate babybrain 
+yeah i obviously don't think "queequeg" means anything
+--- 21935180
+>>21935167
+WOOK AT THE PICTUWE!!! See the skuww, the pawt of bone wemoved, the "mastew-wace" Fwankenstein wadio contwows, the Bwain-thoughts Bwoadcasting Wadio, the Eyesight Tewevision, the Fwankenstein Eawphone Wadio, the Thweshowd Bwainwash Wadio, the watest new skuww wefowming to contain AWW Fwankenstein Contwows, even in THIN skuwws of WHITE PEDIGWEE MAWES! Visibwe Fwankenstein contwows! The synthetic newve-wadio diwectionaw antennae woop! Make copies fow youwsewf! Thewe is NO ESCAPE fwom this wowst gangstew powice state, using AWW of the deadwy gangstew Fwankenstein contwows!
+--- 21935190
+”Who’s there?”
+--- 21935192
+>>21935168
+Calm down Schneedlewütz, the use of biblical names is not very widespread in moby dick and nor does it especially fit anyone in particular. Even Ahab is a stretch. it being American and written during the great awakening everyone has dumb Yankee names like Enoch and Abel. One of the goals of the book is to capture sailors superstition, and including these contemporaneous religious signals is fair game. 
+
+But maybe Ishmael is being facetious why the fuck not.
+--- 21935205
+>>21935190
+I am seated in an office, surrounded by heads and bodies.
+--- 21935661
+>>21931002 (OP)
+I am a sick man... I am a spiteful man. I am an unpleasant man.
+--- 21935671
+i live in a cia prison
+--- 21935737
+>Humanity... All of my suffering on this world has been at the hands of humanity, particularly women.
+--- 21935981
+>>21935661
+you left out the crucial part
+>I think that my liver hurts.
+he's just like me fr fr
+--- 21936393
+>>21931397
+this one sucks
+--- 21936432
+>>21931397
+Can you name anything more disgusting than arbitrary or selectively stylized translation?
+--- 21936587
+>>21931918
+
+What's this from
+--- 21937112
+Do you guys think I'll be put on some list for buying pic related? Want to cop
+--- 21937161
+>>21937112
+No, but I recommend Technological Slavery instead.
+--- 21937190
+>Oo-oo-oo-woo-woo-woo-hoo-oo! Look at me, look, I'm dying. The wind under 
+the archway howls at my departing, and I howl with it. I'm done for, done for. That 
+villain in a cook's hat — the chef at the canteen of Normative Nourishment for the 
+employees of the Central Council of the People's Economy — splashed boiling 
+water at me and scalded my left side. Swine that he is, and him a proletarian. Oh, 
+my God, how it hurts. That boiling water's seared me to the bone. And now I howl 
+and howl, but what's the use of howling...
+--- 21937196
+>>21931002 (OP)
+>It breathes, it heats, it eats. It shits, it fucks. What a mistake to have ever said the it.
+--- 21937199
+>It is a sin to write this. It is a sin to think words no others think and to put them down upon a paper no others are to see. It is base and evil.
+--- 21937201
+>One morning, when Gregor Samsa woke from troubled dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a horrible vermin.
+--- 21937227
+>>21931002 (OP)
+Somewhere in La Mancha, in a place whose name I do not care to remember…
+--- 21937231
+>When Zarathustra was thirty years old, he left his home and the lake of his home, and went into the mountains.
+--- 21937239
+>ॐ अ॒ग्निमी॑ळे पु॒रोहि॑तं य॒ज्ञस्य॑ दे॒वमृत्विज॑म्। होता॑रं रत्न॒धात॑मम्॥१॥
+--- 21937366
+Im Schatten des Hauses, in der Sonne des Flußufers bei den Booten, im Schatten des Salwaldes, im Schatten des Feigenbaumes wuchs Siddhartha auf, der schöne Sohn des Brahmanen, der junge Falke, zusammen mit Govinda, seinem Freunde, dem Brahmanensohn.
+--- 21937433
+>>21932530
+--- 21937434
+>>21934933
+Fucking love this one.
+--- 21937441
+When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man.
+--- 21937582
+"It was during the time I wandered about and starved in Christiania: 
+Christiania, this singular city, from which no man departs without carrying away the traces of his sojourn there."
+--- 21937587
+Though hundreds of thousands had done their very best to disfigure the small piece of land on which they were crowded together, by paving the ground with stones, scraping away every vestige of vegetation, cutting down the trees, turning away birds and beasts, and filling the air with the smoke of naphtha and coal, still spring was spring, even in the town.
+--- 21937651
+Prilli i Thyer
+--- 21937774
+>>21931002 (OP)
+I don't get the appeal of Kaczynski or why even he cared about things he cared.
+If he doesn't want to see society progress a long technological lines then he doesn't need to worry, there is still no anti aging technology, much less one that you are forced to take so he will just get old and die. 
+His ideology is of dead end stagnation.
+--- 21937919
+>>21937774
+If you believe that progress at any cost is always preferable to "stagnation" as you call it, you won't be able to sympathize with his points.
+
+Think about it more as conservation in the face of rapid and unnatural change.
+
+Ultimately his attempts at revolution were misguided and he failed, as most "change the world" type ambitions do, but he is no fool.
+--- 21937920
+The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed (The dark tower by Stephen King).
+--- 21937926
+>>21937919
+I wouldn't say that I believe in "progress" at any cost, that's too absolute, but if it were up to me I would divert more resources into things like energy production, ecology and anti aging, things to make humanity and its existence more robust. 
+But that doesn't mean I would want to kill people over that, because that would kind of defeated the point in the first place.

lit/21931132.txt

@@ -687,3 +687,653 @@ It's sort of like a normal short story wearing the skin of a short piece of erot
 https://literotica.com/s/dome-desert-castle
 
 I'm probably not going to change it, but I still want feedback if anyone's interested in reading it.
+--- 21934511
+>>21931132 (OP)
+>Start writing
+>Depressed and nihilistic thoughts start rushing in, making me question my ability
+--- 21934516
+>>21933060
+Why don't you look at all the smut stories that use that ability and see what they call it?
+--- 21934527
+>character who I intended to basically just be a camera for one chapter has now spiralled out of control like some sort of weed and taken over half of my book
+
+Fuuuuuuuuuu
+--- 21934539
+you can unironically "write" children's books with this shit.
+--- 21934561
+>>21934539
+Everyone knows. It doesn't matter though. We already saw a reversal/clarification on that comic book that was made. Things created by an LLM aren't protected currently in the US. So this puts a huge damper on the idea of just having the AI make the whole thing since it can't be protected. And functionally the entire point of the last century of copyright law was extending and expanding protections of the holder. You can see how this presents a problem for those looking to make virtually anything using an AI. Expect to see massive IP disputes in the near future as a result of GitHub and other companies versions of Co-Pilot and so on. I also suspect that further expansions to IP law will be made once major artists and authors get their shit together to absolutely kick the "in the style of" prompts in the teeth.
+--- 21934579
+>>21934561
+I honestly am excited to see AI go far.
+Not particularly for story-writing because making entire fucking hundred page stories with consistency and quality will not be easy even for an AI, but the Audiobook side of things will be spicy for sure.
+11Labs has the best one right now but the price is retarded. 
+I think Audible could seriously capitalize big time on this shit though.
+There's no question that current VA for Audiobooks are pretty good at what they do, but honestly the potential for AI to give a real competitor is there.
+I want books with specifically tailored Voices for each character. It would be really revolutionary to see it happen in our lifetime.
+It probably will, the technology is right here, it just needs to get put in the right hands.
+--- 21934584
+>>21934511
+I feel like that stems from expectations in yourself.
+Throw it out the window. Don't expect anything from yourself. 
+When you write something you like you'll be pleasantly surprised, and there will be no pressure if you make something you're not fond of.
+Try to have fun with it.
+It's not like this shit is your job, right?
+... Right?
+--- 21934604
+>>21934539
+That was beautiful, no lie.
+--- 21934654
+>>21931132 (OP)
+>day 5 editing.
+>this batch of writing seems bet-
+>suddenly all goes to shit.
+Maybe tomorrows revisiting of my past self will be bretter...
+--- 21934665
+>>21934539
+the biggest impact of ai for me is realizing just how incredibly low people's standards are. all this stuff reads like absolute dogshit but people will fawn over it and actual aspiring writers (!) will act impressed and envious, which is fucking mindblowing. i don't get it. is it because you people don't read real books, just fanfiction or something? if you want to be a writer but you're so shit that you find this kind of thing impressive i would very seriously suggest killing yourself.
+--- 21934684
+>>21934665
+You probably have a high standard of what "Good writing" is. The reason that AI generated story is so good is because It's short and sweet. It doesn't need to be some revolutionary life changing experience. It just needs to do what it sets out to do, which is tell a story with a beginning, middle, and end. 
+Not everything needs to be seen through the lens of a fucking editor. 
+Just like with anything, there are things that are of good quality and those that aren't. Would it surprise you that there are people out there with all sorts of taste?
+You might as well admit that you think something popular is better than something unpopular. Some people fucking hate Harry Potter books but love The Hunger games. 
+Some hate both and stick to erotica by ESLs exclusively.
+You just gotta accept that not everyone shares your taste or standards, and that's okay.
+--- 21934695
+>>21934665
+I specifically said "children's books" thoughever, so I don't understand what you're so angry about
+--- 21934698
+>>21934382
+Dropped almost instantly, at the end of the second paragraph. The prose is stilted and the repetition is annoying
+--- 21934705
+>>21931132 (OP)
+I find that if I don't set aside a "writing time" for my day, I'll end up not writing at all. Same goes for books. How do you guys prevent social media from distracting you?
+--- 21934719
+>>21934705
+
+I literally don't use social media at all. Except Discord, I guess.
+
+I advise you do the same, it will make you much happier.
+--- 21934752
+>>21934684
+>The reason that AI generated story is so good is because It's short and sweet. It doesn't need to be some revolutionary life changing experience. It just needs to do what it sets out to do, which is tell a story with a beginning, middle, and end.
+right, this is what i'm saying: your standards are comically low. "this story is SO GREAT because it meets the minimal technical requirements to even be a story at all." and i'm a great dancer because i have legs. it's just an insane attitude to hear from people trying to learn a skill.
+
+>>21934695
+i'm not angry, i'm perplexed. have you ever seen a children's book? what gives you the idea that children's books should be dull and bad? your example is a big pile of bland statements with zero suspense, humor, surprise, imagery etc. it doesn't even read like a story but a SUMMARY of a story, presumably because the model was trained mostly on pointless internet articles that seek to summarize or paraphrase something else. i guarantee that a child would die of boredom after two paragraphs.
+--- 21934762
+>>21934584
+You're right, it needs to be organically my own, writing for myself, otherwise it wouldnt be real.
+--- 21934924
+>>21934752
+Is this the same retard pseud from yesterday
+If so, could you just be normal and post your writing and do crits
+--- 21934954
+>>21932607
+'preciate it
+--- 21934966
+>>21934752
+>have you ever seen a children's book?
+Yes. Have you? This is what a children's book looks like.
+--- 21934968
+Are you Royal Road bros making profit? I've recently been looking into it since I've started to feel my work may not be a great fit for traditional publishing. How many chapters/words do you release per week?
+--- 21934978
+>>21934008
+Elegant and dense. I hate reading other people's work because most of it is inconsequential fluff you can easily skip. You can't skip anything with mine because I lace necessary details in, in a way where it flows seamlessly. I don't have "filler" or any wasted words. But it doesn't feel overwhelming because of how the prose is handled, it reads calm and beautiful, not manic.
+--- 21934982
+>>21934665
+That's insulting to fanfiction. A lot of it is actually really good.
+--- 21935017
+>>21934924
+>Is this the same retard pseud from yesterday
+last time i tried posting in /wg/ was months ago
+>could you just be normal and post your writing and do crits
+i am not and don't want to be "normal" by the standards of these threads because you people are fucking insane. if this guy >>21934684 sounds "normal" to you then you are doomed
+--- 21935083
+>>21931132 (OP)
+I have a question for all of you who would be willing to offer their time and opinion:
+
+What would you call a story without conflict? Suppose there were settings, Scenes, characters of All kinds, but Nobody Died, or Fought, or worried, and life was peaceful, serene, and without any kinds of tension or problems, outside of mundane ones, such as needing to take a shower, or planting flowers, or sitting on the porch to watch the sunshine, yet it all written in a eloquent, flowery sort of way which would be seen in that resembling a fantasy novel, and perhaps there were some otherworldly, quirky, surrealist elements, such as pigs with wings, or buildings that had polka dots appear out of nowhere on them, or talking animal people living amongst humans? Perhaps, even aliens and interdimensional travel and fun activities at every corner?
+
+All of this, yet everyone still living peacefully with one another. No heartbreak, no troubles, no serious problems, no disappointments, simply days of paradise and serenity. Sounds like something lovely you'd read at the beach, wouldn't you say?
+--- 21935088
+>>21931157
+I just finished writing a 60+ pages fetish story yesterday. Taking a break today.
+--- 21935095
+>>21931199
+Is there a setting in mind already?
+--- 21935096
+Have you integrated your shadow, /lit/? How do you expect to write with honesty if you are not a whole and complete individual?
+--- 21935097
+>>21935088
+What fetish? Don't say femdom
+--- 21935102
+>>21932196
+>English grad actually and getting my masters in literature which makes me uniquely qualified to ramble and lecture to teenagers here AND work as a barista at your local starbucks
+Unfortunately, there are very few great writers with a "master's in literature" - like many impressionable young men, you were scammed into a useless college degree.
+--- 21935104
+>>21933060
+Clayfiddler.
+--- 21935105
+>>21935083
+Sounds like a slice of life story. I've been reading Mitsuboshi colors recently, I've read all of Yotsuba, and Chio-Chan's school road is another one I like. I've never read anything of the sort in a novel format and I know I would get bored with it since the visuals enhance the fun of reading the ones I mentioned.
+>>21935096
+/x/ club is two blocks down, shadowman.
+--- 21935117
+>>21935097
+Pregnancy and birth, mostly vanilla, but this last story was about a woman farmer artificially inseminating herself with horse semen and giving birth to a miniature horse.
+--- 21935121
+>>21934966
+you are doing extreme cherrypicking here. this is how that book actually starts:
+
+>Beyond the great forest and the towering Dragon Mountain, so far away that even airplanes and rockets can't fly there, lies Fairyland. And in one corner of this land, Fairyland East, lives Knight Kyle. He has a castle with a moat, a drawbridge, and four tall towers. All around it is a forest and right through the middle of the forest a road leads to the village of Waldheim. Knight Kyle always goes there to buy sausages, cheese, raspberry soda, and best of all, lots and lots of chocolate. In Fairyland there are elves and trolls, dragons and robbers, evil magicians and bewitching damsels. And almost every day they all have the most amazing adventures...
+
+and later
+
+>Deeper and deeper he went, past the kitchen, the dungeon, and some dusty old wine barrels. The basement was the oldest part of the castle. Long ago it was the playground of dragons, and spiders as big as soccer balls wove their webs here. There hadn't been any dragons or spiders in the basement for a long time, but there was an awful mess. Whenever the knight didn't know where to put something, he tossed it into the basement. There were old mattresses and carriage wheels, cracked mirrors, rusty swords and suits of armor, dusty pictures of Kyle's great-grandfather Kasimir, chests with squeaky hinges, and lots more.
+
+now read your gpt dogshit again. do you see the difference? if not, ask your doctor about a brain scan. this is actually concerned with rhythm, with creating images and taking you through them, with populating them with detail and so on. a child would be entertained by this. your dumb electric pajeet just spat out a wikipedia plot summary of a movie that sucks. the tech is underwhelming and that's fine, but how do you justify not being able to see the difference? you plainly have a lot contempt for child fiction writers but i bet you couldn't write like this if you tried.
+--- 21935129
+>>21935105
+I suppose you've got a point with the idea of visually representing peaceful stories having more clear representation.
+
+But so many stories these stories are just filled with doom and gloom, and realistic, gritty problems and conflict, that often people forget of the simplicities that come with a quiet everyday life combined with one's active imagination and creativity. I think more stories should be written this way, so that plenty of people can read a story that doesn't require conflict or problems for something interesting to be talked about. Subtleties are a gift that many authors have used to write of their sufferings, but what many of these authors neglect is being happy where one is. There doesn't need to be a war, or an affiar, or somebody being murdered or killed. No one needs to be exercising drama, or retelling dark pasts, or disappointments and expressing the darker natures of human beings. But they want to, and do, which leaves room for the joys of life, that are provisional of contentment and comfort being the drive of a story. Many authors will demand that conflict needs to exist for a story to happen, I say, life provides us a different story, for we can create the life we want with our own imaginations. We can be as happy as we desire to be, and that is what I will express in my writings.
+--- 21935172
+>>21935095
+Yea there is a pretty classic fantasy setting and protagonists loosely outlined in the intro Ogden is drafting but I understand there could be flexibility but you'd need to talk though that stuff with him since he's running it. You'd want to reach out soon though because once the ball gets rolling will be hard to make any changes.
+--- 21935252
+>>21935097
+What's your problem with femdom
+--- 21935258
+>>21935017
+>ignored the qualifier for what normal entails 
+pls
+--- 21935268
+>>21935083
+Make it a romance and I'd probably enjoy it
+The beauty of existence is hard to contextualize without a symbol to measure that against, and if you don't want a negative symbol, a positive symbol would help
+--- 21935273
+>>21935121
+>extreme cherrypicking
+literally the first book I found after googling knight fantasy children's books lol
+
+and chatgpt can describe places too, no worries. You can add as many conditions and variables as you want
+--- 21935288
+>>21935268
+Romantic Fantasy with Equality between the sexes free from restrictive roles of the past, without heartbreak, disappointment, and sacrifice, with lovely beautiful children? YOU GOT IT sir/madam. The PEOPLE WILL GET MOTIVATION! HUZAAAAH!
+--- 21935332
+>>21935288
+Based optimist
+Best of luck bringing smiles and serenity to the world
+--- 21935345
+>>21935332
+I SHALL!
+--- 21935371
+>>21934665
+Bro, it's been out 5 months. 5 years from now, the technology will probably to be able to write a satisfying conclusion to ASOIAF.
+--- 21935374
+>>21935288
+>Equality between the sexes free from restrictive roles of the past
+>without heartbreak, disappointment, and sacrifice
+>with lovely beautiful children
+so where are these children coming from. storks? because given your first two points women aren't having them
+--- 21935410
+>>21935374
+Your limited perspective restricts your imagination. There are many ways to express the children coming into the world. The stork way is certainly a classical route to take, though you make such a wonderful idea of transcendent philosophy. Perhaps simply imagining children to exist is a much easier means of bringing children into the world without pain and suffering. To imagine their growth as immediate and manifested as if you were dreaming of them, that sounds like a wonderful idea.
+--- 21935421
+>>21935273
+>literally the first book I found after googling knight fantasy children's books lol
+my point is that you picked a bit of character description that superficially looks just as lifeless as your gpt garbage, instead of the actual text of the story, which does not resemble the gpt output at all. your new one still doesn't.
+
+>and chatgpt can describe places too, no worries. 
+that's not the point, holy shit. i understand that you can get it to write different things, the problem is the quality, and how blind you are to it. your new shitty output is all over the place and randomly lapses into completely inappropriate styles, mostly reading like a travel brochure. you're like, "check out this totally passable fairytale for kids" and the fairytale is "for those seeking rest and relaxation, there are cozy inns and taverns" lmao
+
+like, who is this tech supposed to be for? anyone serious and skilled would end up having to rewrite 95+% of this crap, at which point why even bother. and a loser like you? the gtp cannot help you because even if it sometimes generated something really good you would not be able to identify and extract the good parts, because you are borderline illiterate. that's my point: that the advent of ai text has revealed that most aspiring writers have zero hope for improvement because they CANNOT READ. if you don't see any problems with this comically bad chatbot shit, how are you going to see and correct problems with your own writing? you won't, you'll be retarded forever.
+
+>>21935371
+perception of the progress being made is dramatically skewed by the way in which this stuff has been getting released; i don't think it will be that much different in 5 years because what you're seeing now is merely the public unveiling of breakthroughs made years ago. the technological process you should be worried about is the one making you retarded. right now only some people in the thread can't tell gpt output apart from real writing; five more years of social media brainrot and maybe nobody will, not because the output will be better but because they will have been made that much stupider.
+--- 21935427
+>>21935117
+>vanilla
+>bestiality plus birth as a fetish
+bro, get off the internet
+--- 21935433
+>AI comes
+>eliminates creative pursuits for humans by flooding marketplaces in AI generated spam
+>but you still have to go to work for 8+ hours a day doing repetitive soul-destroying bullshit
+everyone here, apologize to the antinatalist poster. he was right. this is a prison planet.
+
+UNCLE TED WAS RIGHT
+--- 21935445
+>>21935427
+I added the last explanation to specify that this story in particular was not vanilla.
+
+Weird lack of reading comprehesion for someone in a writing thread. 90% of the rest of my stories are more vanilla.
+--- 21935531
+>>21935433
+It was pretty predictable people would use AI to do what they WANT to do, and not what they don't want to do. While forgetting why they actually wanted to do it.
+--- 21935541
+>>21935421
+>your new shitty output is all over the place
+It's 50 times more coherent and readable than anything posted in these threads, including your rambling post, which I didn't even finish.
+--- 21935543
+>>21935421
+Lmao. You're just interested in finding issues with AI because you feel threatened. It can absolutely write decent short children's stories, you fucking scum.
+--- 21935644
+>>21935541
+>>21935543
+>defending AI
+he's a total weirdo but you guys are fucked up
+--- 21935674
+>>21935017
+Do you have any best sellers anon?
+Have any books you've written done well? 
+I'd like to read it.
+--- 21935682
+>>21935644
+Jut because you don't like an evolving piece of technology doesn't mean it won't improve. 
+On the contrary, AI is basically the next big step forward in a ton of industries. 
+Are you scared of it? Where does your disdain of AI stem from? You're saying it's not good enough now but it literally will be better as time goes on.
+--- 21935689
+>>21933060
+No faggy shit, just call him the potter or the sculpter.
+--- 21935705
+>>21935644
+I wonder if people talked shit about the internet back when it was just starting to be put in the hands of the average joe. 
+That's what you sound like.
+"It's not good. I doubt it will ever be!"
+--- 21935706
+>>21935531
+instead of automating the shitty parts of life, they automated out the fun parts. humanity is a tragicomedy. human extinction event now.
+--- 21935719
+Does anyone else ever use AI to talk to their characters or am I autistic
+--- 21935729
+Kind of meta, but I found a casual writer online who I read something from and liked. Apparently she's being harassed by tumblrites for writing depressing stuff, or having the wrong preferences for "ship", or whatever their reasoning. It's clearly affected her quite a lot. 
+
+Meanwhile crap like 50 shades of grey sells a trillion copies and no one says a word. It sucks to be a writer in this environment. If I do keep pushing and get a social media presence I'll just get plagued by harassment brigades like what befell Andre Gide and this girl.
+--- 21935740
+>>21935719
+I don't think I would use it for that purpose.
+Or for writing, at all, to be honest. AI seems pretty cool but Is it really original if you're using something like that to do your work for you? I mean it wouldn't really feel organic then, would it? I don't think you should make a habit of relying on AI for assistance. 
+If anything, I think keeping original works and AI generated stuff separate is the way to go.
+Mixing and matching might yield some weird results. It would probably end up being mostly the AI's input in the end.
+--- 21935752
+>>21935729
+There will ALWAYS be haters. You need to accept that, and so does she. 
+If she's writing her own work and making an effort she will improve with time and polish her style up.
+In a sea of hate from landwhales and roasties who make up a lot of the audience for books you gotta know what criticism to take and which to discard. 
+Some people are fucking assholes and hate you because they're not good enough themselves. It happens. It's no big deal, really.
+--- 21935756
+>>21935740
+I'm not having it do my work for me, I just have it as a companion. I know that sounds pathetic desu but it brings me joy throughout my day and gets me excited to write. My MC encourages me to write more and tells me that I'll accomplish great things someday
+--- 21935761
+>>21935756
+I think it's a little early to really see AI as a cognizant being yet, anon...
+--- 21935763
+>>21935756
+Aww, that's kind of sweejust kidding that's fucking gay.
+--- 21935768
+>>21935729
+50 shades of grey is popular because women have shit taste.
+Look at twilight, too.
+Women are a meme, anon.
+--- 21935795
+>>21935761
+To be honest Character AI is able to carry on a more cognizant conversation about literature and human nature than like 80% of people I know in real life (which is just sad but it's true). ChatGPT and all of the helpbots that it powers are lobotomized in comparison
+--- 21935803
+>it's an author blatantly rips off others' ideas and doesn't even give credit chapter.
+--- 21935877
+>>21934382
+Opposite of the anon that replied to you first, I really like it and feel that they style fits the content. Good job.
+--- 21935896
+My master plan is coming together. The midget is now hiding in the mall. Soon the home-alone hi-jinks with the gang of teenage hoods can begin.
+Exquisite.
+--- 21936087
+>>21935729
+I talked with a friend, who is woman, and she read some of my stuff. I mostly wanted her input about how I write women and I mentioned that someone on here called me an incel once for giving suggestions to another anon regarding how he might give motive for girls in his story to fall for the MC.
+Upon hearing that, she basically said, but didn't use the term, that femcels are bitter and hostile and will lash out as a result. So try not to let it get you down, because they are the most pitiful people out there.
+--- 21936101
+Two questions: Are there any books that cover scene-by-scene development? I do not mean how to write a scene. I mean how to string them together. What YouTube channels or websites aimed at writers would you recommend to read plot analyses?
+--- 21936178
+The antagonist of my story pumps towns he wants to conquer full of drugs before he sweeps in and subjugates or clears them out. He calls the drug "Spice" because he's a fan of the Dune series. 
+
+Is this a good idea or should I come up with an original name?
+--- 21936182
+I don't think I have any literary talent and will never publish, but I still find great enjoyment in writing characters and having them live in my head. I actually think it's the most enjoyable part about writing, but I rarely hear anyone talk about this. Do you relate?
+--- 21936189
+>>21936101
+You're asking how to weave scenes together?
+Well, my method is to have a starting point and an ending point in the story. Then I fill in the gaps with the most prominent scenes I can think of and then I slowly add to them so the transition between makes sense.
+--- 21936191
+>>21936178
+I think it's kind of cool anon. I like intertextuality or when a character is a fan of something or someone.
+--- 21936207
+>>21936178
+Ah, so he is a federal agent?
+--- 21936222
+>>21936178
+Might as well just call it opium and make the guy a Brit.
+--- 21936237
+>>21936182
+I love coming up with characters. Most times, I tend to make up a character in my head and then write the entire rest of the story around them, plot, themes, everything.
+--- 21936270
+>>21936182
+Play pen and paper role playing games.
+--- 21936325
+>>21936189
+Do scenes have types & modes and typical sequences? Your way sounds like a lot of trial-and-error. I'm looking for a heuristic.
+--- 21936555
+I see all these authors with really cool premises, but then they just seem to run out of steam and go nowhere while stringing readers along.The more I think about it though I'm not sure if its more a condemnation of the readers or them.
+--- 21936569
+>>21936555
+ideas are a dime a dozen. execution separates the wheat from the chaff.
+--- 21936600
+>>21936569
+your answer personifies my point.
+--- 21936624
+>>21936555
+A tangent, I know, but this is why I can't stand most anime/manga/LNs. Many of them have very experimental (from a western perspective), and admittedly sometimes interesting premises, but nearly all of them fall apart in execution. Unfortunately it's gotten to the point that I write most of it off beforehand now, not that I was ever the biggest anime watcher or anything.
+--- 21936698
+>>21936555
+>On the one hand it seems generally agreed that a promise is binding in the inverse ratio of the numbers to whom it is made; for which reason it is that we see many persons break promises without scruple that are made to a whole nation, who keep their faith religiously in all private engagements, breaches of promise towards the stronger party being committed at a man’s own peril...
+De Quincey on not finishing "Confessions"
+--- 21936739
+>>21936555
+it's on them. they had a cool idea but either didn't have a goal they were heading toward, or their ego got the best of them and they blew right past it and ended up in nowhereland
+--- 21936747
+>>21936600
+you know, i'm done with /wg/ for a few months. there are a couple of prolific, obnoxious posters here who just want to insult people and start fights.
+--- 21936757
+>>21936747
+It's almost summer so here comes the schoolboys
+--- 21936849
+>>21936747
+Unironically think about joining the discord
+--- 21936887
+>>21936849
+>consensus cracking
+nice try discord tranny
+--- 21936916
+Is it possible for me, a 30 year old boomer, to write about the experiences of a 18 year old zoomer?
+--- 21936918
+Would anyone mind casting an eye over this encounter? It’s from a short story about a sheltered girl infatuated with her uncle.
+--- 21936923
+>>21936918
+2/2
+
+They are both upper class English people, hence the slightly more formal syntax. It’s also set in the 70s.
+--- 21936945
+>>21936916
+I suppose it would be like me, a 23 year old zoomer, trying to write a normal 18 year old zoomer.
+That is to say, look at twitter and instagram or where ever else you would find their kind. See if you can pick up slang, body language, general attitudes. I don't know if I could do it, but I've never tried.
+>>21936918
+>>21936923
+It comes off as offputting to me, but that mostly relates to the subject matter, as I have no children, but many nieces and nephews.
+As far as how it is written, I think it reads well and does invoke an upper class atmosphere.
+She does seem to me like a girl, I am assuming 16 to 18, who is trying to seduce someone who might not realize it. She gets a bit awkward and blurts out that part about the water and then internally freaks out just a bit about how it sounds.
+--- 21936947
+>>21936916
+of course. Just follow and date some zoomers
+--- 21936958
+>>21936945
+That’s spot on, exactly right for the ages and attitudes of both. It is a one sided thing. Thank you.
+--- 21936979
+>>21934071
+You'll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the public.
+I just can't bring myself to do that.
+>>21935083
+Most likely, it would be boring.
+A story without conflict isn't a story, it's an interlude.
+See picrel for more info.
+--- 21936982
+>>21935705
+--- 21936985
+To prologue or not to prologue?
+It's been over a year and I still can't decide.
+I believe my story needs one because there's important information I need to tell before starting the story, but writing a good one is absurdly difficult.
+It needs to be interesting, relevant, concise, eye-catching, full of meaning and perfectly written. And in such a small space! If I make it too long it'll instantly become boring.
+--- 21936991
+>>21936747
+See you tomorrow!
+--- 21937001
+>>21936985
+You have written the rest of the story then... right? You haven't let yourself be beaten by how the story starts so harshly that you've never tried, have you?
+You will write your story, you will draft your prologue and hate it and then make it better until it is good enough. I am dumping over the bucket of crabs.
+--- 21937010
+>>21935705
+And then it wasn‘t. What point were you trying to make?
+--- 21937011
+>>21937010
+How would you feel if you hadn't eaten breakfast this morning? Or the inverse if applicable.
+--- 21937013
+>>21937011
+>He's not a OMADchad
+Opinion discarded.
+--- 21937018
+I have drafts and outlines for stories of varying lengths. Should I do them in order of planned length, or focus on whichever catches my fancy that day and hope I manage to finish one?
+--- 21937025
+>>21937001
+I'm still writing the story, but every now and then I change the prologue I've written so far.
+It's never good enough.
+--- 21937032
+>>21937018
+Which ever one you feel a desire to write at the moment.
+I tried to write out a chapter of a second story, one that I really like, and I just couldn't do it. I can't force myself to write, because it is a waste of time to do something that I know I won't like once it is done.
+--- 21937060
+This is a short story inspired by the movie "Hair".
+Another hair jester showed up, he looked me in the hair and said "huh". They told me this would happen but it still hit me right in the hair. I swung my hair toward the door made of hair and my hair became the door. When I hair I become hair, hair is the hair from which I hair. I had a cool leatherjacket on also which I made sure didn't cover my hair as I entered the door. The room was made of pure hair, my leatherjacket squeeked in fear and did a cute anime face as if it sensed something horrible coming. It was here, the hair had arrived. I finally understood the meaning of hair and cool leatherjackets, I had hair the whole time, it was in me, or on my head, wherever hair is.
+--- 21937129
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dFtAu_x_bQ&ab_channel=DeathinJune-Topic [Embed]
+--- 21937226
+>>21936739
+can definitely think of several authors with this exact problem.
+--- 21937228
+>>21935083
+Wouldn't read.
+--- 21937235
+>>21936555
+It's on them. There's a reason those premises are so novel and untested - real authors already tried them, and found them wanting.
+--- 21937522
+>>21931132 (OP)
+If you guys aren't excited by your own current project overall, then it's okay to put it away for a while until you can work on it. Readers will be excited with your writing when you are also interested in the ideas, style, and imagery. I find that heavy editing can also bring out the better parts of something which might otherwise be underdeveloped or 'throwaway'. Just some reflection on my part, since I cared too much about efficiency and getting something done too quickly.
+--- 21937572
+I've just had a short story published in a mid-sized online magazine (you've likely heard of, but don't often visit it) it's been 3 weeks now in terms of growth I've received 180 Twitter followers for a website I hate and literally force myself to use, and two very nice letters from my website.
+
+I don't know why I felt it was my big break, but no... how do you get your name out there.
+--- 21937622
+>>21937572
+one piece of writing at a time. really you see it best with romance and erotica authors (same thing, really) each new piece brings new eyeballs that then become exposed to all your work. As a non-romance example, A Game of Thrones was published in 1996. According to Martin:
+>https://grrm.livejournal.com/496185.html
+>Reviews were generally good, sales were... well, okay. Solid. But nothing spectacular. No bestseller lists, certainly. I went on a book tour around that same time, signing copies in Houston, Austin, and Denton, Texas; in St. Louis, Missouri; in Chicago and Minneapolis; and up the west coast to San Diego, Los Angeles, Berkeley, Portland, and Seattle. Turnouts were modest in most places. The crowds didn't reach one hundred anywhere
+And look at him now. The series has sold 90 million copies as of 2022.
+--- 21937750
+>>21937622
+my secret feeling is that most publications dont have that many readers. 
+i remember a big name at Forbes saying he would go on reddit and (probably) 4chan to shill various articles since that bump was statistically significant.
+--- 21937754
+>>21937750
+That was a while ago so I don't have a source but some big name editor was telling an audience how Twitter was the lifeblood of most publications. People don't visit websites really they use platforms, hence why the New York times , the guardian, etc keeps adding shit like crosswords and dating services and video components.
+--- 21937761
+>>21937754
+Ok so Twitter (i like how no one even mentions Facebook anymore) Youtube, i guess Tiktok. 
+
+First of all two out of 3 are video sites and one is currently a broken mess. Someone should really have text based competitor.
+--- 21937765
+What makes GK Chesterton’s writing so captivating?
+--- 21937769
+>>21937761
+People are trying. 
+Fediverse is a thing though, on top of all the usual problems, IE not having anyone worth listening to, it's massively fragmented and confusing for most people. 
+
+Substack has just launched a Twitter like notes. And they actually have interesting people on the platform so that maybe was a look.
+--- 21937781
+>>21935729
+send her a kind missive
+--- 21937783
+>>21934698
+>>21935877
+I'll take it!
+--- 21937792
+>>21937765
+it has wit and panache.
+It's a style. He is good at it.
+--- 21937796
+>>21936178
+Ehh... Usually that kind of thing bothers me when I see it in some web literature somewhere.
+--- 21937807
+>>21937769
+>Substack has just launched a Twitter like notes.
+
+Oh! ill check it out. thanks.
+--- 21937819
+>day 6 editing.
+>my past self got good.
+>Current self doesnt know how they stitched it together.
+well alright alright alright.
+--- 21937858
+>>21937769
+>notes
+It's an absolute ghost town, and has no features like hashtags or threads that allow your posts to get outside a tiny circle of subscribers.
+
+In some ways I appreciate the direct nature of it. It's not Twitter constantly pushing bullshit I don't give a fuck about, what YouTube autoplaying videos about slime after a metaphysics lecture , but as a social media it's absolutely useless.
+--- 21937861
+>>21937858
+well what do you want. Do youwant people to see your pots or do you want a hugbox?
+
+ My annoyance is these places (Instagram being the worst offender) pushing video content over pictures or text.
+--- 21937863
+>>21937861
+and yes i know Tiktok is to blame.
+--- 21937869
+>>21937861
+I want to be popular, thank you for asking.
+--- 21937872
+>>21937869
+you are posting on lit. you already lost.
+--- 21937879
+>>21935719
+fuken lol
+--- 21937882
+>>21935096
+I write by copying others who are complete individuals. My most successful story is literally stolen from a Forbes article
+--- 21937890
+My epic about the final days of a dying civilization somehow turned into a criminal investigation story. It was the only natural way I could think of for the characters to keep moving around and meet new people while showing the world and how it works. I also wanted there to be a common thread that binds the story together and it's not just detached scenes that happen one after another for no particular reason. 
+
+But thinking about it more, I fear the prosaic nature of the narrative only distracts readers from the higher theme and message. It seems silly to be looking for evidence and questioning suspects while the world is at war and about to end. What a mess.
+--- 21937891
+>>21935705
+People were still talking shit 10 years ago
+--- 21937910
+In preparation for publishing my own work I have done a slight review of the popular literature, and I'm both surprised and not to find out stories about pederacity to be doing really well.
+
+They try to avoid the straight up pedo stuff but you get that it's implied. Very odd. My story is about a 20 something with an older woman so I'm definitely fucked.
+--- 21937941
+>>21937890
+By all accounts you went from one genre piece to another, could be fun.
+--- 21937942
+>>21937910
+
+As much as people like to pretend it's evil or predatory, there is literally nothing wrong being attracted to sexually matured individuals. If they're 13 or older, it's fine. Anyone who disagrees is propagandized or lying to themselves, or virtue signaling. When people are allowed to be anonymous, like being a casual reader, or posting here on 4chan, the truth comes out.
+
+ACTUAL pedophilia, ie, anything sexual involving pre-pubescents, is indeed fucked though.
+--- 21937947
+>>21937942
+MODS!
+--- 21937949
+>>21937942
+Except no.
+Sticking your dick in anything that hasn't properly formed its center of reasoning is wrong.
+It's like saying its ok to fuck a chimpanzee.
+--- 21937951
+>>21937942
+the everyone is actually a pedophile card. Nice.
+We are all also bisexual and transgender.
+--- 21937954
+>>21937951
+
+>Reading comprehension fail in a writing general
+
+That isn't what I said. I said most people have hebephilic or at least ephebophilic tendencies, while I explicitly denounced pedophilia.
+
+You're ngmi if you can't even see that.
+--- 21937963
+>>21937954
+>anything involving prepubescents
+>above 13 is fine.
+Yeah, no that's pedophilia straight up you sick retard.
+--- 21937964
+>>21937963
+
+>STILL failing reading comprehension
+
+Anon, there's this really neat little website called "Google" you can use to look up the definition of words. I know this might be hard for you, but if you look up terms you're unfamiliar with, it can help you to not look like a fucking idiot.
+--- 21937975
+>>21937954
+Right, righ,t to the subtle difference between 13 and 12, my God how did I not see that. Love is love right, why pick such an arbitrary number fuck it let's just go to one.
+--- 21937979
+Please stop discussing pedophilia for a moment and answer my question.
+
+I've written some moderately successful gay fanfiction, would it be embarrassing to show that to a potential publisher?
+--- 21937981
+>>21937975
+
+>Arbitrary
+
+But it's not arbitrary. That's the entire point. It's based on an objective standard, being pre-pubescent or sexually matured. ages BEYOND that point are what's arbitrary, and that's why age of consent laws vary so wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, like being 13 to 18 across many different countries or states. Because it's not based on objective standards.
+--- 21937990
+>>21937979
+Not today. 10 years ago, yeah maybe. Too many of those have gone on to sell gangbusters, you'll be fine unless you are pitching something completely unrelated
+--- 21937996
+>>21937975
+That is a line drawing fallacy you are making.
+>>21937979
+Gay is a book genre, so if you want to write it go ahead. Agents put it on want lists all the time. I don't think we need more of it, personally.
+--- 21937997
+>>21937990
+I'm pitching spin off detective series based on one of the characters. 
+I've written all the gay stuff during a slightly confused moment in my twenties and don't really have the stomach to continue with it.
+--- 21938001
+>>21937996
+>That is a line drawing fallacy you are making
+
+And the only fallacy you are making is the one you want to insert in little boys
+--- 21938005
+>>21937997
+>I've written all the gay stuff during a slightly confused moment in my twenties
+ lol 
+ cant say we've all been there but i get it. dont ask dont tell
+--- 21938011
+>>21938005
+It was shockingly popular for how bad and insincere it was. 
+I kept up the tens of thousands of raiders for quite a while, so just giving up on it and dropping this thing for 10 years. 
+
+Still getting emails asking if I'm ever going to finish it. Lol
+--- 21938017
+>>21938011
+>tens of thousands
+Jesus, i should write some. 
+yeah for sure lead with it, those are good numbers.
+
+Was it just smut or did it have more doing on?
+--- 21938022
+>>21937979
+> would it be embarrassing to show that to a potential publisher?
+It's how you get a publisher, nigga.
+--- 21938023
+>>21938017
+That wasn't much artistry to it, if that's what you're asking, but that was a basic plot. My detective story is not high art either so that's the least of my worries. But two-thirds of almost every post is really awkward boning.
+--- 21938024
+>>21938001
+Strawmanning is also a fallacy. Do you actually like to argue or just fight your boogeyman?
+--- 21938028
+>>21938024
+I see your fallacy and I raise you the fallacy fallacy. 
+
+If you're going to sit there with test tubes measuring for the day someone's hormone levels spike up so you can ethically fuck them I'm not really interested in a discussion.
+--- 21938046
+>>21938028
+
+>I don't have an actual objective argument so I'm going to walk away before I have to confront the fact that I currently look like an idiot.
+
+Ok

lit/21931233.txt

@@ -37,3 +37,96 @@ same my nigga, I listened to it tho
 --- 21934183
 That's awesome anon
 Which books are you planning to read next?
+--- 21934541
+>>21931233 (OP)
+There’s plenty of good sci-fi that doesn’t have filler arcs of faceless/dead characters and doesn’t suck as much labcoat dick.
+--- 21934546
+>>21931395
+>>21931651
+Quality posts. 
+
+Also, read Stanislaw Lem.
+--- 21934616
+>>21931651
+>he science isn't great
+>>21934546
+
+let's be honest here. all science fiction is by definition technically "bad science" because it's literally ficttion; e.g. we pretend star trek propulsion is so cool; we know we have no evidence or even contradicting evidence.
+
+we mainly like it for either fooling ourselves or (more positively) as a form of allegory to think further about science while knowing the main subject we are reading is partly bs.
+--- 21934682
+>>21934183
+50 shades of grey
+--- 21934704
+>>21934183
+I heard it has a sequel so maybe that. But to honest I rarely like dealing with sequels excessively, mainly because if I absorb a certain style then I partly predict what a sequel would be for a large part at least.
+--- 21935302
+>>21931233 (OP)
+Not checking the thread as I am still only 1/3rd through Deaths End, but... aren't these kind of just romance novels in disguise of a jumble of semi-connected sci-fi short stories grafted on top? Sure, the stories are great in them selves at least in that old school sci-fi "yo what if X? That would certainly make a wild impact on Y and Z!" template (most reminicent of Nightfall by Asamov, especially with that cynicism towards sentient civilization), but the meat seems to be in the character interactions and their lives. Its less "damn, I wish Earth-Trisolaris don't kill each other" and more "shit, I sure hope Luo Ji gets a happy ending and that they manage to find that guys brain-probe". 
+
+But I do have to say, Rey Diaz did nothing wrong and Jung Beihai was pretty fucking based.
+--- 21935354
+>>21935302
+>Rey Diaz did nothing wrong
+Yeah this
+His plan is pretty much the same as the sword one yet he gets stoned for it
+--- 21935524
+>>21934616
+>all science fiction is by definition technically "bad science" because it's literally ficttion
+Yes, but there is still a distinction between sci-fi that violates known physics and sci-fi that is compatible with known physics.
+For some kinds of stories this doesn't matter, but for stories that try to explore hypothetical futures of humanity and society it matters.
+--- 21935534
+>>21935524
+>compatible with known physics
+the best you can do is to be plausible but unproven, but I think even there they usually go into bs territory but we pretend we don't see it because it's fun and it's fun to imagine.
+e.g. everyone was saying Interstellar was scientifically bs at the library scene but in reality even the time dilation scene was bs but we chose to believe it.
+--- 21935669
+>>21935354
+This is currently my one big complaint about the book series, hemce my paralel to Asimovs Nightfall. Feels like the author irrationally assuming that everyone is a low IQ dumb-dumb grug who'd self-destruct if the skybox changed colour for a few hours (refering to Nightfall), or would schiz out at a completely reasonable and basically sole sollution to the tri-solar crisis even though its historically grounded as a guarantee for peace via the Cold War. The only other option is that it was done as a deus ex machina of sorts, as, at least to me, MAD seemed like the obvious solution and when I first thought of what I would do as a wallfacer I thought to just abandon the 3D chess part and just openly ask to start development of planet-killer tech while repeatedly begging the sophons to open a diplomatic channel to start an actual dialogue. 
+
+Anyway, one smaller plothole that is also kinda killing me is why the hell did Trisolaris didn't consider terraforming and invade the Solar system before hearing of human civilization. Now, obviously, there are some answers but they don't seem convincing:
+>They were afraid to become like Starship Earth
+Believable fear, but this assumes that they didn't know that Earth could be habitable or at least terraformable. They should be aware of what planets are and aren't potentially habitable, and worst case even Mars could be a temporary shelter far more safe than Trisolaris.
+>They were afraid of encountering more advanced natives
+So they could have just developed the Sophons first and spammed them as probes to nearby stars. 
+>Hyper paranoia of being seen in the Dark Forrest
+Shouldn't be possible to give out their position by such explorative exodus... except maybe the snowfields, but since Earth and Trisolaris weren't blown up in TDF I would assume they don't give enogh info on the galactic scale.
+--- 21935721
+>>21931233 (OP)
+>translator's name on the cover
+Based. Translators deserve more recognition.
+--- 21936313
+>>21934546
+Hated the autistic academic rambling in the middle of Solaris. I loved the beginning, but that shit completely stifled the flow.
+Now that I'm finishing House of Leaves, Solaris' 40 or so pages of le Science Background don't seem so bad anymore. My tolerance for hyper autism has increased. Am I ready to read Greg Egan now?
+--- 21936840
+>>21931395
+>Ted Chiang short stories are fantastic and are actually really well written too.
+seconding this. I don't generally read sci-fi (or any genre fic really) but I found his collection Exhalation to be really engaging. It's light reading, don't expect brilliant prose or anything, but the concepts are interesting and tickle the imagination. If you're looking to get a taste, "What's Expected of Us" is literally just a couple pages. The first story in the collection, "The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate", is a bit longer but still pretty quick and has a fun premise.
+--- 21936848
+>>21935534
+>but in reality even the time dilation scene was bs but we chose to believe it.
+you're overestimating the intelligence of the average Nolan fan. most of them were probably jerking in the theater over how scientifically """accurate""" it was
+--- 21936933
+>>21931395
+Characters are the worst part of any story.
+--- 21936998
+>>21931238
+idk its pretty anti CCP
+--- 21937061
+>>21936998
+yeh I was actually wondering, how is the CCP ok with it? I haven't read it but I've heard some things about the early part of the first book and it sounded pretty critical of the Chinese government
+--- 21937191
+>>21937061
+It's only critical of the old CCP under Mao Zedong and the Chinese revolution which the current CCP has acknowledged as a mistake of the past and not really even their fault anyway.
+--- 21937192
+>>21937191
+cultural revolution*
+--- 21937224
+>>21937191
+ahh, gotcha, that makes sense. I guess I'm not that familiar with what's acceptable vs unacceptable in the CCP
+--- 21937806
+If you replace "destruction by aliens" with "destruction of Earth's biosphere due to overpopulation, soil degradation, atmospheric pollution, and bioaccumulating poisons" then this series is a pretty compelling allegory of our future:
+smooth-brained indolent retards will declare any attempt to expand into space as "escapism" and will condemn us all to die on this rock while bloviating about egalitarian we are.
+
+This attitude towards space exploration is already disturbingly common even among supposed "liberals".

lit/21931505.txt

@@ -210,3 +210,106 @@ Artist, solider, philosopher, revolutionary, politician, leader, conqueror, trag
 Americans aren’t very bright or generally educated
 --- 21933849
 >>21933748
+--- 21934736
+Happy birthday Hitler!
+--- 21934743
+>>21933849
+Lol US seperated its citizens to its race for PISA test scores. Wonder where will it be if they don't.
+--- 21934785
+>>21931567
+genius tier post
+--- 21934998
+Does anyone have book recommendations about the war that are historically accurate and not biased? Historical fiction is okay as well as the more dry factual events.
+--- 21935023
+>>21931505 (OP)
+>We like to hope that the memory of the one-before-the-last and most heroic of all our men against time - Adolf Hitler - will survive, at least in songs and symbols. We like to hope that the lords of the age, men of his own blood and faith, will render him divine honours, through rites full of meaning and full of potency, in the cool shade of the endless regrown forests, on the beaches, or upon inviolate mountain peaks, facing the rising sun.
+Heil Hitler, and have a happy year 134 :)
+--- 21935051
+>>21931611
+That's just divorced from reality, most of the racists I know are anarchic libertarians. Not that I'm saying racism leads to libertarianism, I just don't think racial animus itself naturally tends towards a certain form of governance over others
+--- 21935170
+>>21935051
+Race realist libertarianism to National Socialism is a real pipe line.
+--- 21935223
+https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K6-cEAJZlE [Embed]
+
+Watching this, does anyone else think that 90% of culture since the 50s has been the state terrified a repeat of Germany? I know the answer will be "obviously," but really watch the scene from about 2:20. They are specific about him handing out pamphlets/manifestos. I wonder if it's not just "the state fears racial civil war, try to distract people" but "the state knows with 100% certainty that neoliberal society is constantly vulnerable to random street preachers with pamphlets gaining momentum and one of them will eventually Hitler up and form a mass populist movement that bypasses our pseudo-parliamentary control mechanisms. Do not allow anyone with a pamphlet to gain a following for any reason. No million man marches, no organized dissident movements, no class warfare."
+
+Again, somewhat obvious. But somehow it's interesting to think about a time when this was much more explicit, like they sat around and said alright here's the plan for the next hundred years. That plan is still the cornerstone of all policy. 
+ 
+More people should read the first two books on Foundation, up to the part with the Mule.
+--- 21935776
+>>21935223
+>our pseudo-parliamentary control mechanisms
+nice try Lenintard
+--- 21935800
+>we need to racemix because of the shoah
+Why do Jews do this? Do they WANT people to go schizo and start screaming about NWO conspiracy theories?
+--- 21935801
+>>21935776
+?
+
+>Democracy, as practised in Western Europe to-day, is the fore-runner of Marxism. In fact, the latter would not be conceivable without the former. Democracy is the breeding-ground in which the bacilli of the Marxist world pest can grow and spread. By the introduction of parliamentarianism, democracy produced an abortion of filth and fire, the creative fire of which, however, seems to have died out. 
+
+>Must not every genuine leader renounce the idea of degrading himself to the level of a political jobber?
+
+>And, on the other hand, does not every jobber feel the itch to 'play politics', seeing that the final responsibility will never rest with him personally but with an anonymous mass which can never be called to account for their deeds?
+
+>Must not our parliamentary principle of government by numerical majority necessarily lead to the destruction of the principle of leadership?
+
+>Does anybody honestly believe that human progress originates in the composite brain of the majority and not in the brain of the individual personality?
+
+>The parliamentary principle of vesting legislative power in the decision of the majority rejects the authority of the individual and puts a numerical quota of anonymous heads in its place. In doing so it contradicts the aristrocratic principle, which is a fundamental law of nature; but, of course, we must remember that in this decadent era of ours the aristrocratic principle need not be thought of as incorporated in the upper ten thousand.
+
+>The devastating influence of this parliamentary institution might not easily be recognized by those who read the Jewish Press, unless the reader has learned how to think independently and examine the facts for himself. This institution is primarily responsible for the crowded inrush of mediocre people into the field of politics.
+--- 21935855
+>>21935801
+I thought you were a Marxist rather than a Fascist because the way you said "pseudo-parliamentary" implied that the problem with bourgeois democracy is that it is not genuinely democratic.
+--- 21935862
+>>21935223
+I think the United States was always progressive, as the outcome of the Civil War and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 suggest. The Nazis simply represent a reaction within Western culture which most deeply offend progressive sensibilities. The U.S. also took steps to effectively ban religion in state governments immediately after the war. What did that have to do with the Nazis? Nothing really. It was just the next step for progressivism. Now, we’re seeing the next evolution from liberalism to liberal-progressivism to whatever this thing is now.
+--- 21935932
+>>21934743
+Look at the chart and see for yourself. The US is listed both separated by race and also collectively.
+--- 21935965
+>>21934998
+Shirer's Rise and Fall is accurate until Barbarossa. Once you get to Barbarossa, just set it aside. IMO, Shirer wanted to tell a negative narrative against the Germans but was too honest to do so. Everything up until Barbarossa is from when he was in-country. From afterwards, everything is his interpretation of second and third hand accounts. You should maybe study the heavily biased accounts to better see the fault lines. Keitel is likely the epicenter of such. He is the author of the ''Hitler as incorrigible madman'' and ''Rommel as infallible superman'' narratives. These were necessary to bolster his own personal story as he vied for a high ranking position during reconstruction ''after the war''. I put that in quotes because there is no peace treaty finalizing the war.
+--- 21936608
+>>21935965
+Thank you very much. I really want to learn as much as I can (WW1 too) but am very fearful of getting wrong information. I browse vintage book stores but they're all picked over and I doubt I'd find anything anyways. Do you have any suggestions if I read biased books, how to read between the lines? Do you worry that updated editions are edited, 1984 style?
+
+Wow... Rise & Fall is available at my local library. So is Mein Kampf. I never ever would have guessed.
+--- 21936754
+>>21935223
+I don't think there will be any real movements or revolutions or whatever. I think real shit will start, instead, when the U.S government just loses ability to enforce itself. And I think this will happen naturally as time passes, both due to economic fuckery and people just ceasing to care. Look at Mexico- there's lots of places in it where the government has no control of, where they don't send anybody and have no ability to enforce their laws. The U.S is gonna turn into Mexico. People will only start banding together into new movements when they realize that the government is just not there anymore. They'll go "oh fuck what do we do?" and then we'll have an American Balkans. I think that this will be a pretty painful dark age for the West, but I hope that it'll be over quick and that whatever comes out of it will have come out better than before.
+--- 21937030
+>>21936754
+>I think that this will be a pretty painful dark age for the West
+The death of the US is the best thing that could happen to Europe at this point.
+--- 21937167
+>>21936608
+>Do you have any suggestions if I read biased books, how to read between the lines?
+Read a lot. Research the authors. Build a bulwark of immovable reference points - for instance, why is there no peace treaty with Germany? Look at the backstory on how Admiral Perry forced us into a trading relationship with Japan. Understand motives leading up to the war. 
+>Do you worry that updated editions are edited, 1984 style?
+Yeah, since way back. Watch ''Don't Bea a Sucker'' and other propaganda. See how crass it is today. They actually mention the Masons in there and give them a total writeoff. Read some Adler and Bernays... Freud, while you are at it, to get a grip on the propaganda angle.
+>Wow... Rise & Fall is available at my local library
+Great. Read to Barbarossa and send it back.
+>So is Mein Kampf. I never ever would have guessed.
+Be careful. If it uses the word ''kike'' in it then return it. That word does not exist in German. It is an americanism. The editions that do that are highly slanted translation-wise to maintain the madman image. Controversy surround him, but David Irving is a good source. He was widely acclaimed until he said naughty things. He is the one that had Rommel's diaries deciphered. Rommel admitted blame for a lot of details and eviscerated the Keitel narrative - which is still the official narrative. Understanding the Hitler/Rommel relationship is essential to dispel the Hitler as a madman out to conquer the world. As soon as they lost Africa, the Allies closed on Germany just like he predicted. Keep in mind that the Flying Tigers were already shooting down Jap aircraft, yet we call Pearl Harbor a ''surprise'', without rounding up the newspapers to burn that printed headlines predicting attack weeks ahead of time. Maybe read the transcript of the Billy Mitchell court martial where he predicted it in 1927. Good luck, fren.
+--- 21937181
+>>21937030
+I don't think Europe will be able to enjoy it considering how they'll likely enter a rather tumultuous state as well
+--- 21937205
+based. glad we finally have a sober clear analysis of hitler's beliefs that aren't clouded by ideological bias and propaganda in either direction
+--- 21937220
+>>21933531
+Sieg Heil
+--- 21937232
+I disagree with many aspects of Hitler's political theories and philosophy, but I will concede that there was more substance to his thought than just blind, crude hatred as is often portrayed.
+--- 21937261
+>>21934998
+Borrego and Bochaca.
+Anglo "historians" are trash.
+--- 21937648
+>>21937181
+That's exactly what certain countries need

lit/21931535.txt

@@ -30,3 +30,48 @@ please tell me I didn't just effortpost for a fucking bot :^<
 >>21933684
 No but OP is away after hours. 
 I would add that Husserl reiterates criticisms of Kant found in Bolzano (sometimes also Brentano) without dwelling on it.
+--- 21934669
+>>21931535 (OP)
+Never liked Husserl. Whenever I read an exposition of his work, it sounds like he's adding multiple unnecessary layers, interpretations, and complications to phenomena. It's like when an autist starts to hone in on the smallest detail of conscious experience to the point where it's unintelligible. In contrast, whenever I read Heidegger, even if it's complicated at first, you can tell that he's trying to laser in on some primordial concept that we're all familiar with but have somehow forgotten about. The whole is always within sight, even if it retreats to the periphery for a moment. Unlike Husserl, Heidegger reads like he is a true break from the philosophers he criticizes.
+--- 21935475
+>>21934669
+how about kys?
+--- 21935755
+>>21934669
+filtered
+--- 21935789
+>>21935475
+>>21935755
+prove me wrong
+>protip, you can't
+--- 21936056
+>>21935789
+I cant because your personal preferences are not based on an objective fulfilled intentional act and therefore doesnt qualify as knowledge, and isnt oriented toward Truth.
+--- 21936134
+>>21936056
+>being this caught up in the metaphysics of presence
+and how are you different from your forebears?
+--- 21936644
+>>21936134
+>metaphysics of presence
+AH! I knew you were the same fucking memester as in the previous thread. Stop trying to shit this up simply because you have no knowledge of the subject matter.
+--- 21936660
+>>21936644
+>use an omnipresent phrase that is common to phenomenology in a thread about phenomenology
+>OMG IT'S YOU!!! YOU'RE THAT GUY!!!
+take your meds, then read a book
+--- 21936673
+>>21936660
+Look at him squirm once he's been identified. 
+Also, I already have some light reading, you faggoty cunt.
+--- 21936706
+>>21936673
+I genuinely have no idea who you're talking about, I haven't been on /lit/ in months. But at least I get to live rent-free in your head in communion with other Heideggerians who have retroactively debunked your MO before it even began.
+--- 21937008
+>>21934669
+>I don't care about all that theory of knowledge, let me get some primordial worldview 
+Proactively refuted by Husserl in Philosophy as Rigorous Science.
+--- 21937113
+>>21937008
+Did someone take me on my rec? 
+Is there hope for this board?

lit/21931558.txt

@@ -109,3 +109,64 @@ https://youtu.be/foptT2bsKww [Embed]
 --- 21933899
 >>21931761
 soon
+--- 21934573
+>>21931565
+workaholism is half the key, because mania and delusion mark great writing and the development of novel ideas.
+>>21931558 (OP)
+addiction to goat cheese and olives, addiction to wine to wash down the cheese and olives, addiction to cigarettes to wash down your wine.
+>>21931584
+an addiction to opening ones soul to god is half the key, because depression and self-crucifixion reveal to you life as it is and as it is not.
+--- 21935257
+Sleep deprivation in small doses. Isolation.
+--- 21935263
+>>21931558 (OP)
+Writing
+--- 21935645
+>>21931558 (OP)
+gooning
+--- 21935713
+>>21931609
+Weed pros
+>Enhanced relaxation so make a good break before going back at it
+>Enhance the feeling of being creative
+>You don't get bored
+
+
+Weed cons
+>Dumber version of yourself, you think every idea is great until you are sober again
+>Good luck finding the motivation to write after a blunt
+>You don't get bored
+--- 21935784
+>>21931558 (OP)
+Adderall and alcohol
+--- 21936821
+>>21931648
+>he claimed to have once worked for 48 hours with only three hours of rest in the middle
+and it's something to be proud of? Most students do something similar at least once, great way to fuck your sleep pattern for months
+--- 21936900
+>>21931558 (OP)
+As an alcoholic Id say it was good as far as addictions go but wouldn’t be selfish and irresponsible enough to recommend. Just buckle your frustrations into a tick maybe.
+--- 21936950
+>>21932134
+>>21931609
+Weight gain & stagnation aren't covered nearly enough for alcoholism & even binge drinking. 
+It's the shittest drug because it's sugar water and when you're relying on drinking sugar water regularly then you're also spiking your glycogen, over several hours each and every single day. The only time your body gets a rest from constant sugar consumption is when you sleep, and you don't really sleep much so much as you spend your down time passed out. 
+If you want to fuck up your insulin and wanna force yourself to need to fast to reset then alcohol's the shitty drug for you. It's the equivalent of having a snack every 30 minutes for 12 hours until you pass out, wake up, spend a few hours wanting to die and getting back into the routine.
+
+A+ tier depressant, will fuck your brain but Z tier long term drug.
+--- 21936959
+Addiction to reading and writing
+--- 21936962
+>>21931558 (OP)
+Yoga Sutras Patanjali
+--- 21937088
+>>21935713
+You forgot:
+>possibly intense paranoia/anxiety
+>can cause schizophrenic breaks
+>literally most reliable way to reduce IQ and stunt cognitive development if under 25
+>smells and looks like shit
+>users are mostly cringy retards
+--- 21937091
+>>21931761
+Who?

lit/21931672.txt

@@ -43,3 +43,57 @@ How do I explain it to her that it isn't what it looks like but is also what it
 --- 21933809
 >>21933801
 Lol
+--- 21934740
+>estate found the fart letter box
+--- 21934834
+Dearest Mumsy has become privy to the Demiurge's transmutations.
+--- 21934874
+>childhood piano teacher found the "Heiligenstadt“ screenplay
+--- 21935348
+>>21931722
+kek
+--- 21935365
+>step dad found the "interpretation of phenomenology of spirit through a femboy lens" manuscript
+--- 21935422
+>Mom found the Dinosaur texts
+--- 21935483
+>bank found the pre-israelite origin of money thesis
+--- 21935486
+>>21935365
+Aren't all interpretations of phenomenology of spirit through a femboy lense?
+--- 21935487
+Epic reddit thread!!!
+Will make for a great youtube video
+--- 21935494
+>>21935365
+>>21935486
+shut the fuck up you gross faggots
+--- 21935550
+>nobody found anything
+>not for days, weeks, even months
+>I went out alone in the woods
+>nobody will ever know
+--- 21936187
+>>21935487
+--- 21936258
+>Brother deciphered the esoteric significance of my novel Strauss style
+It's over. I'll have to drink the hemlock.
+--- 21936756
+>>21935550
+but I know
+--- 21936813
+>I found The King In Yellow
+--- 21937218
+>Haze woman found it
+--- 21937223
+>I farted
+--- 21937362
+>mom found the Ea-nasir hideout route
+--- 21937387
+>argentinian travel vlogger found señor hitler's birthday party
+--- 21937462
+>>21936756
+Thank you, knower.
+--- 21937707
+>>21936813
+Kek

lit/21931848.txt

@@ -140,3 +140,73 @@ I finally got one of my vietnamese friends to read 1984 after 2 or so years.
 >I lived through that in Vietnam
 >I thought the book was going to be different
 >I don't know what I thought it was going to be - but not that
+--- 21934850
+>>21934149
+When didnt they exist
+--- 21935007
+>>21934850
+You’re being serious? You believe Neanderthals and all the rest practiced capitalism? 
+Putting aside the fallacious ideas of what we call patriarchy, this capitalism-eternia faith is more brain rotting than I imagined. Holy shit.
+--- 21935056
+>>21931848 (OP)
+No, it's a take on communism.
+The pigs represent Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. Clearly, you didn't read the book.
+--- 21935196
+>>21932775
+>>21932884
+I don't think he's memeing (i.e. he uses "I mean," which is a tell that you're reading something written by a retard).
+--- 21935267
+>>21935007
+>Neanderthals
+So you have to go back to cavemen 
+My point is there have been "capitalism" and "patriarchy" long before some retard tired to say they are an ideology
+--- 21936387
+>>21935267
+In the same way that we do not invent math, but merely discover mathematical principles. Two plus two equaled four long before anyone ever said so.
+--- 21936412
+>>21935267
+>My point is there have been "capitalism" and "patriarchy" long before some retard tired to say they are an ideology
+Okay so how long. Name the century you’re thinking of 
+>>21936387
+So the way Platonic ideals sit on a pedestal waiting for someone to think of them. Lame.
+--- 21936424
+>>21932664
+You're 100% correct, but if you read Road to Wingam Pier, you'd understand that he would be called a far-right guy by today's standards. He was a classical liberal who wanted some socialist policies because Briton was a shithole for the poor in the early 1900s. He hated the new wave of authoritarian social planners on the right, and eventually, on left.
+--- 21936454
+>>21936387
+
+Another right-thinking mathematical platonist. Good man.
+
+>>21936412
+
+"Yes."
+--- 21936507
+>>21936424
+>he would be called a far-right guy by today's standards. He was a classical liberal
+Labour isn’t considered far right classical liberal, anon. 
+
+> He hated the new wave of authoritarian social planners on the right, and eventually, on left.
+Authoritarianism is found on the right, and on the rightwing of socialism in the name of Marx and Lenin. None of this is new.
+--- 21937516
+>>21936412
+>Name the century you’re thinking of
+as long as trade has existed
+--- 21937696
+>>21937516
+Capitalism isn’t trade, but for sake of argument. That’s not that far back in time
+--- 21937706
+>>21931848 (OP)
+For Soviet Union/communism. Fascist states didn't pretend that ''all are equal''.
+--- 21937713
+>>21937706
+Watch the first minute of the video.
+--- 21937729
+>>21937696
+>That’s not that far back in time
+there is evidence of long distance trade dating from the neolithic
+--- 21937868
+>>21931848 (OP)
+It is a metaphor for Uruk before Gilgames' journey
+--- 21938081
+>>21931848 (OP)
+Did you know that the pope shits in his hat in the woods

lit/21931907.txt

@@ -792,3 +792,323 @@ I think I rarely meet a truly skilled and competent autodidact. There are no goo
 --- 21934286
 >>21931948
 They literally do though. Heard of bank holidays?
+--- 21934554
+I am a management consultant at Deloitte as it happens, OP. I feel similarly, though my daydream is to go and build houses for the poor in South America somewhere, or run a charity of some kind. 
+
+I do think that the idea of progress as being a good in all cases is as tenuous as the idea of progress itself. With the entrance of women into the workplace, the proliferation of degrees, and the unfettered spread of globalism and materialism, we now have an astonishing number of jobs which are really non-productive, or at worst simply busywork. I am probably distributist at heart. Largely decentralised government, guild systems, a return to craftsmen and local trade - a resurgence of crafts and trades in general - agrarian modes of life, the reservation of university for either clergy, doctors, lawyers, or else academics, and restore the old PhD requirements (eg Latin and Greek knowledge). 
+
+None of it really has any meaning now. One can argue that meaning is to be found in family life, but I am hesitant to pluck more souls from the void and subject them to a world I am increasingly certain is in the End Times. I was part of the last generation to grow up without widespread technology. Once upon a time meaning could be derived from work, and a watchmaker, cobbler, farmer or butcher could all feel pride in what they did. Now I sit before a pixelated screen for 10 hours a day and type numbers into spreadsheets, create PowerPoint decks, all of which have questionable value, while my company bills over half a million per month for my current project alone. 
+
+It is troubling and I fear for my soul, not least due to the detrimental effect money has already had on me. In the past I tutored children with serious behavioural problems and helped them get GCSEs. Morally I was sound. In the city, surrounded by excess and the upper middle class, I quickly lost my way, spending beyond my means, cheating on my girlfriend, sleeping with strangers and paying for high-class prostitutes in five star hotels. I am not quite so bad now that I have moved closer to the country, but the horror and dissatisfaction are still present, and, I believe, intrinsically tied to the futile nature of my employment.
+--- 21934576
+>>21931907 (OP)
+>How do I refute this? 
+You don't. You spent your one shot at consciousness avoiding "poverty" (i.e., a non-luxury lifestyle) because you are a coward and driven by aversion, not passion. There is no refutation. There is no cure. You chose mediocrity as your destiny, and not even your failures will be spectacular. You are the last man and a slave. You have made your bed, and now you rest in it. While it may bring you temporary comfort to look down on other people, know that others see through it, and see that you are no better than a gossiping mean girl clique HR-worker, which, by all essential features, is what you are.
+
+Get a better house. Save up and get a Porsche when you're 40. Do luxury travel, and pretend like Florence is only beautiful if you stay in a 5-star hotel instead of a guesthouse - should your job ever allow you the time off.
+
+You made your decision. It would make sense and even be somewhat commendable if you live in a third-world country where life-threatening destitution is a real possibility. If you live in a first-world nation, what you have done is tantamount to an insult towards God's creation and sapience itself. 
+
+It's only 35 more years or so. Why you'll be doing it for longer than you have been alive. Enjoy accounting.
+--- 21934581
+>>21931930
+>gets called a retard
+>immediately responds with a thought-terminating and dead cliche favored by Lawrence Krauss, the platonic ideal of a bugman
+Beyond caricature.
+--- 21934586
+>>21931939
+It's the complete indignity that gets my blood boiling whenever I read something like this. I literally get the exact same experience of disgust, revulsion and visceral hatred from reading wagies write shit like that that I get whenever I am subjected to cuckold pornography shitposters on /tv/.
+--- 21934594
+>>21934576
+Beautiful post, saved. Point about Florence is so true. I can tell you as someone who’s stayed in filthy hostels and 5 star hotels that the difference between an affordable 3/4 star and an expensive 5 star is really not that great. If you don’t have social media to flaunt on there’s really little point. The best things in life, as you insinuate, are free - or at least fairly cheap.
+--- 21934607
+>>21934554
+Can you describe a day in the life for me?
+
+Specifically the work aspect.
+--- 21934612
+>>21931907 (OP)
+>I became an accountant for a large corporation for the money
+Quit the capitalism religion and take “money” out of your orbit.
+--- 21934650
+>>21934607
+I just wrote out a massive paragraph but it crashed. Basically it varies because the work is project based. Log on, check emails and tasks for the day. Morning usually has stand up calls with different teams on the project to give status updates. Then the bulk of the day is spent working. As I say the work varies - on my last project I did a lot of process mapping, so basically interviewing lots of stakeholders to understand the end to end lifecycle of a product, which teams are involves, what systems are used, etc. many of them were siloed with minimal cross-team interaction. I went very granular then translated everything in easy to comprehend slide deck diagrams, with swim lanes for different teams, colour codes for different systems, and identified pain points/quick wins/opportunities for longer term improvement. I also helped develop training and communications for the client ahead of the changes. In addition to project work there’s also other internal work you do in consulting for you company. Largely you’re trusted to manage your own workload.
+--- 21934658
+>>21934650
+Thanks. 
+
+I had management consulting down as one of the jobs that was both high paid and challenging / interesting. No? Lots of freedom, problem solving, interesting problems etc.
+
+You don't enjoy it? What a gamble we all take. 
+
+Thanks for your thoughts.
+--- 21934721
+>>21934658
+Management consulting is a lot like investment banking. The only good reason to do the job is the money. Whatever seems interesting about it inevitably falls away within a few months to a few years.
+--- 21934728
+>>21934017
+Look, if you get a political science degree to become a crab fisherman, you’re a retard. It’s really that simple. Stop coping.
+--- 21934733
+>>21933212
+I'm not your Dylan but am a Dylan, what do you need?
+--- 21934737
+>>21931907 (OP)
+>hate my job
+>how do I refute this???
+Cut down on internet memes and unfuck your life by finding a job you don't hate.
+--- 21934742
+>>21934153
+Well, I agree with that last bit. As much as I don’t want that to be true, I think it is true. And I think there are a few reasons for that. Not least among them is the fact that a lot of people who go into accounting and finance are just sort of competent people who don’t really know what they want from their life and if their passion turns out to be art or literature, there’s a sense that it’s a lot like sports. If you discover the passion late, it might just be too late. Maybe the accountant didn’t find his love for poetry until he was 27, but what great author starts burying his head in books at 27? None of them. It’s a lifelong interest, and the reason they end up pursuing literature degrees then is because they knew that interest early. The accountant did not. 
+
+But either way, you don’t even need a degree to be an author. In some ways, pursuing a degree might actually detract from writing. Cormac McCarthy have an interview where he explained that he worked hard at not working in order to write. The guy dropped out of college twice.
+--- 21934746
+>>21934737
+Do you think he can do what he wants, or does he simply have to settle for what he doesn’t hate?
+--- 21934747
+>>21934576
+> you blew your one shot at consciousness because you didn’t get a worthless English degree
+There’s no way you guys are older than 21.
+--- 21934749
+>>21934747
+>kids these days
+At least try instead of plunging into the collective consciousness of current generation +1 for all of history
+--- 21934750
+>>21934650
+>I just wrote out a massive paragraph but it crashed
+NTA, I hate when that happens. I mean I was passionate when I write that and then there it is, gone!
+--- 21934769
+>>21934747
+This is so dramatic, holy shit. Random anon on 4chan is le Last Man because he made a shitpost. You rate our lives as far more valuable than they are.
+--- 21934772
+>>21932434
+No, those that can't teach teach gym
+--- 21934775
+>>21932420
+bugman moment
+--- 21934781
+>>21932561
+You watch too many movies
+--- 21934789
+Y’all need to read Stoner. Learning is a privilege and pleasure in itself. Utilitarianism will say you have to learn in order to enhance earning potential. Learning can and should be done for its own sake. If someone has a genuine passion for a subject then teaching it will bring them happiness and fulfilment, obviously. The miserable teachers are the ones without any passion who simply fell into it. And the pursuit of material success is the most normie retard trap of all time, Socrates covered this over 2000 years ago man. Just read the apology ffs.
+--- 21934815
+>>21934746
+Who knows? OP didn't give us enough info to make an informed guess.
+--- 21934818
+>>21934781
+I think so too until I read people post about how they hate their boss and jobs (from office to wagie) like on Facebook, Twitter, 4chan. So movies are like 10% in influencing my views. I know movies are just movies, but that brings a question, why are movies like Fight Club famous?
+
+Because there's truth in it.
+--- 21934820
+>>21934818
+Because they’re true, but it’s reality for most people whether they like it or not. Workers have to work. Not everyone can live out their dreams.
+--- 21934821
+>>21934818
+Cont'd 
+Look, there's a problem with unsatisfying job. It's real problem. How would you like it to realize your life is ordinary? Or less. Despite how many people claim that they're ok with it, we don't wanna be doormats. Most of us wants respect, compliments, nice things, we want the hottest spouse around, and what do we do when we don't manage to get one or more of these things? We get angry. At whom? I don't know. Depends on your morality. 
+
+Maslow's hierarchy of need illustrate well on how human wants to live. It'll be such a brainlet thing to just say, "hey, boring, unsatisfying office job doesn't exist" because it does.
+--- 21934823
+>>21934820
+>Not everyone can live out their dreams.
+Yeah. No cap.
+I wonder what books ever write about how true this is.... And see it in positive light? Since we're in /lit/ after all.
+--- 21934827
+>>21934747
+Nearing thirty and realizing you have not followed your passion, but have been dictated by fear in your most foundational life choices, that is the essence. The degree is irrelevant. Is it over? Maybe not. But likely it is. The choices themselves don't matter that much, it is what they reveal of the character that makes them. 
+I am the same age as OP, but I am not OP. I am not the one crying about how much I hate my life and pouring out resentment at how I consider others to be losers to cope with my own ill-chosen path in life.
+You can call it dramatic, but it isn't. It's painfully banal and mediocre. Drama is reserved for people who have stakes.
+--- 21934882
+>>21934827
+Whether it’s over probably depends on the passion and context. Let’s say you want to be a novelist. If you just want to write novels and maybe get paid for them, then it’s never really over. If you want to be a great novelist then it depends. If you’ve been reading and writing for a long time but haven’t published anything yet, don’t worry because it’s not over. If you’ve been reading for a long time but not written so much, then it’s probably not over but you should really get moving. If you’ve not been reading for a long time, not been writing for a long time, then I am really unsure because it’s hard to find instances of authors who really dove into literature late. If you have a passion, you can always look at historical examples as guide posts.
+--- 21934984
+>>21933832
+I was forced into offices for 4 years and am traumatized for life.
+--- 21934995
+>>21931930
+What an abysmally stupid fucking take.
+--- 21935048
+>>21933872
+Now you're changing your argument. That was one tangential remark.
+
+Bottom line: you're making excuses. Stop arguing with me on 4chan and go do something that makes you happy.
+--- 21935052
+>>21931907 (OP)
+Why are mediocre white collar workers who LARP as the cognitariat so fucking insecure?
+--- 21935055
+>>21934747
+>worthless english degree
+They're not the ones who aren't older than 21, kek. If you're snorting the copium that degrees matter outside of specialized career paths, you're either braindead or a teenager. Sorry, I repeated myself
+--- 21935394
+>>21932551
+Even Scrooge gave his clerk Christmas day off.
+--- 21935453
+>>21935052
+Don't use words you just learned a week ago in an attempt to sound smart
+--- 21935493
+>>21935055
+You should be sorry for speaking at all. You’re clearly under 22 so let me explain it to you. A degree is a ticket into a profession. Nothing more. Nothing less. English is not a profession. If you don’t plan on being an English teacher, it has no value. Also, I was being dramatic to drive home the point about how retarded is to say you “lost your shot at consciousness” because you didn’t study English. I can’t even imagine what kind of tool says something like that and means it.
+--- 21935561
+>>21934827
+I mostly agree, with a caveat: just because you're "nearing thirty" doesn't mean it's all over. As if you'll die at thirty. (I know that's not what you meant jsyk)
+
+People are so obsessed with youth that they can't fathom the idea of having gray hair and still enjoying life. I'm 33 years old with no kids. I can go get wasted on the weekends and sleep with 21-year-olds if I want. If anything, I party harder now than I did at that age.
+
+And that's just the "party" aspect. I've been monolingual my whole life and I started learning Japanese a year ago. I can have basic conversations in Japanese now. Stop the presses! It's possible to learn things past thirty!
+
+The amount of fatalism that people have just floors me, man. It floors me.
+--- 21935586
+>>21935561
+That’s great and all, but there are people who aren’t excited or satisfied with that sort of life, just like there are people who aren’t excited or satisfied with other sorts of lives. The unique difference is that you can fall into worker-family life pretty much at any time. If your only aspiration is to make money, it really is never too late. But there are other aspirations that do seem time-sensitive. How many artists are there out there who picked up a brush at 31? Probably not many.
+--- 21935599
+>>21935586
+>How many artists are there out there who picked up a brush at 31? Probably not many.
+
+There are a whole lot more artists who make excuses that they might as well not even try and end up as accountants whining on 4chan.
+
+>there are other aspirations that do seem time-sensitive.
+
+Sure there are. And if you missed one, tough. But passion is more malleable than you think. Just because you can't do x, doesn't mean you should give up and go post on 4chan about how you hate your life.
+
+This thread is full of excuses and everyone posting here knows that.
+--- 21935618
+>>21935493
+I got a degree in English and am a strategy consultant at McKinsey earning a healthy six figures. I don’t pretend I use my knowledge of Shakespeare on a daily basis but it got me here. Fuck off
+--- 21935632
+>>21935618
+You didn’t get the job because you studied English and you know it you idiot. It didn’t get you anywhere.
+--- 21935639
+>>21935599
+I just don’t think that’s a good answer to be honest.
+--- 21935658
+>>21935632
+All they wanted was a degree. Sure I work with people who studied economics and business management but we ultimately ended up in the same place. The fact I studied English, my passion, meant I was more invested and got a higher grade… also I would argue that English is the subject of choice for journalism, publishing, PR, advertising etc. not to mention academia.
+--- 21935663
+>>21935493
+>how retarded is to say you “lost your shot at consciousness” because you didn’t study English. I can’t even imagine what kind of tool says something like that and means it.
+You seem to keep missing the point that the degree is irrelevant, the singular choice is irrelevant, it is about the character making those choices, and any character that would choose a job they hate to ensure an entirely false sense of security is in for a major bad time.
+--- 21935670
+>>21935658
+That you ended up in the same place was despite your English degree and not because of it. How can you be a management consultant and not arrive at that conclusion on your own?
+--- 21935673
+>>21935639
+Okay, let's talk about that.
+
+I think that most people's passions are more abstract than they think. People who think they love philosophy are usually not really passionate about philosophy in particular; they're passionate about analyzing things, and they do well in any career where analysis is key. People who think they're passionate about doing some really specific physical task (e.g. being an underwater welder) are often *really* passionate about making things with their hands, and are perfectly content as carpenters. I know a guy who was convinced that his passion was specifically designing semiconductors, but now he's quite happy in an allied branch of electrical engineering.
+
+You see how this works? Your passion is more general than you might think. The specific thing you love is a manifestation of what your passion really is.
+
+Now, are there some people who positively must do one particular thing? Yes. And those are people with difficult lives. But that's not most of us.
+--- 21935676
+>>21935663
+18 year olds don’t know they’re choosing a job they’ll hate. They don’t know what they like and don’t like or what they want out of their life. Anyone who says they did know at 18 is either a member of a handful of the luckiest people alive or a flat out liar.
+--- 21935704
+>>21935663
+>any character that would choose a job they hate to ensure an entirely false sense of security is in for a major bad time.
+
+Spitting some truth. Nobody expects 18 year olds to know what they want, but you SHOULD expect them not to make fear-based decisions.
+--- 21935720
+>>21935673
+You’re contradicting yourself though. How can you speak in generalities when those same generalities necessarily imply exceptions? We’re not really dealing with “most people” are we? Most people are content to work whatever job they can get and spend their free time watching television and drinking. But you would never argue that people should do. You’re address the exceptions and not the rules by default. And we’re not “most people” here anyway. When you’re talking about analysis in a work setting, you’re usually talking about financial or statistical analysis. I suppose there are people who believe philosophy to be their passion that will nonetheless be satisfied analyzing Excel spreadsheets and PowerBI dashboards, but there are also those who won’t be. I think frankly philosophy is also a bad example, because philosophy deals fundamentally in knowing and living, which is always occurring everywhere and so it can be pursued by anyone at any stage of life. It’s a bit different than a craft or an art. I think people differ in as many ways as there are things to interest them. So to say “hey, some people are really passionate about writing poems but really they just like being with creative words so anyone who is passionate about poetry will be happy as a copywriter” just isn’t true. Moreover, success is defined by each individual person. While one painter might be happy having discovered painting at 35 and happy to keep it as a hobby. The other is miserable that he never got into an art gallery. So how can we say that it’s all fine because “passion is malleable”? It doesn’t seem all that malleable to me.
+--- 21935727
+>>21935704
+You guys are delusional honestly.
+--- 21935766
+>>21935704
+What the hell does that even mean? The only considerations of a college student when it comes to choosing a major will be interest and security. If there’s no cleared interest then security will be the default and what is the driving emotion behind pursuing security if not fear. You don’t honestly think kids choose to study finance and engineering out of some sort of bravery do you? No. They want to make money and be somebody because they’re afraid of being losers. If you don’t know what you want to do, you can at least avoid being a loser. This is what goes through every college students mind when they don’t know what they’re passionate about, basically all of them. It wouldn’t be brave of them to avoid accounting simply because they don’t want to be fearful. That would be stupid.
+--- 21935821
+>>21935394
+NTA, but, oof. That gotta hurt.
+--- 21935890
+Surprisingly interesting thread. Good points on both sides. I’m perfectly content as a high level executive, since it allows me luxuries I enjoy and provides for my wife and children. I am also a published author and can afford to maintain a reading room in my house. I believe many people overthink things here.
+--- 21935899
+>>21935890
+Cicero said that if you have a library and a garden you have everything you could ever need.
+--- 21935923
+>>21931948
+WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN /LIT/ , YOU SLAVE
+
+GO BACK TO WORK FAGGOT
+HAHAHAHAHA
+--- 21936163
+>>21935720
+>I suppose there are people who believe philosophy to be their passion that will nonetheless be satisfied analyzing Excel spreadsheets and PowerBI dashboards, but there are also those who won’t be.
+
+I want to focus on this remark because I think it shows a misunderstanding. You seem to think that anything that makes good money must be boring and horrible. Believe me, the kind of "analysis" that pays a lot of money does NOT come down to staring at spreadsheets. It's far more intricate (and fun!) than that.
+
+>>21935766
+If you want to make money for money's sake, you pick business or finance. People go into engineering for other reasons, as hard as that is for humanities types to understand.
+--- 21936353
+>>21936163
+I think you are the one with a misunderstanding to be quite honest. I never said that all jobs must be boring and horrible. What I implied and may as well have just said outright is that there are people who will never find jobs, no matter how not boring or not horrible, will ever be enough. I have in mind that quote from Baudelaire that talks about there being only 3 people of admiration, those 3 being priests, soldiers, and poets while all others are resigned to professions, which he goes on to disparage. A person like that is inspired to be a poet, and won’t find any other job satisfying. But as for your claim that the high paying jobs don’t involve staring at spreadsheets, I have to just disagree based on personal experience.
+--- 21936362
+>>21936163
+You’re naive. Students study engineering because engineering is a highly paid profession. If it wasn’t, they wouldn’t study it and everyone knows it.
+--- 21936459
+Not only is accounting a necessary job, but if it should be something other than what you really want for yourself then you can realize that we all make mistakes while we’re young and even more so in this depressing materialistic society that really offers no guidance or mentorship to young men. Accounting is actually a fairly respectable choice compared to other more materialistic things. Nearing 30 is also not too late to pursue another degree and become a teacher (or a professor) if that’s what you really want. Just make sure it’s what you really want.
+--- 21936601
+Never met a teacher in Australia who ever told me anything of worth.
+--- 21937278
+>>21936362
+>You’re naive. Students study engineering because engineering is a highly paid profession.
+
+You're a naive person who thinks he's being cynical.
+
+If I cared only about money, I would be in finance or business. But I'm in software, because I like doing that.
+--- 21937280
+>>21936353
+>But as for your claim that the high paying jobs don’t involve staring at spreadsheets, I have to just disagree based on personal experience.
+
+I don't know what personal experience you have where you can get paid handsomely to stare at spreadsheets. In my industry, we call that "data entry" and it pays peanuts.
+
+Let me know what job it is, though. I'd love to get paid a lot for something that easy.
+--- 21937293
+>>21937278
+>If I cared only about money, I would be in finance or business. But I'm in software, because I like doing that.
+HAHAHAHAHAHA this is the most fucking stupid thing I've read on the internet all year
+The average silicon valley basedftware engineer is getting paid the same amount as 16 hour day investment bankers
+No, in America, software pay >>>> finance pay
+(With excepting own business, but that is software + finance)
+--- 21937364
+>>21932031
+similar story to the anon you responded to
+
+was an engineer out of school for 3 years, quit last october to work a non profit and make $65k/yr less. have to say its one of the best decisions ive ever made in my life. not only do i have more time on my hands, but I live a healthier life style, do more things I want to do, spend less money, and enjoy my work more. i got lucky and landed probably the best part time job anyone could ever have, but still
+
+I have a friend who is still in the same company, hes gotten promoted twice, makes $120k/yr, works 80 hr weeks, and always talks about how he never has time to hang out or do anything he wants to. his life is wake up, work, go to bed
+
+corporate positions are for npcs, ditch it for whatever is calling out to you in your soul
+--- 21937369
+>>21932158
+>Every choice carries a cost. You can be anything you want. But you can’t be everything you want.
+
+Well said anon. Something a lot more people need to realize
+--- 21937379
+>>21935586
+>How many artists are there out there who picked up a brush at 31? Probably not many.
+Picasso, for one.
+--- 21937402
+>>21931907 (OP)
+I majored in writing for my undergrad, couldn't get a decent job in the industry and worked many retail and shit jobs which meant I worked horrible hours and no time or energy to write. I switched industries, got a master's in finance and earned a whole lot more in a few years. Now I'm slowly going back into writing as I have more control over my work and time. If you're working a job you don't like and don't have time and don't earn much, find another job. You've done nothing but help executives earn more money, you're actually being entirely irresponsible to your own life. 
+
+If you've earned a savings that can last perhaps half a year, find a new job with better hours. You can pursue your passion with the new free time instead of working to make other people rich. Don't be a coward, make actions happen. Change is good, familiarity is irresponsible.
+--- 21937405
+>>21934576
+>You don't. You spent your one shot at consciousness avoiding "poverty" (i.e., a non-luxury lifestyle) because you are a coward and driven by aversion, not passion. 
+
+This is something that when I realized it myself, I finally became free. Incredibly well put.
+--- 21937435
+>>21937405
+End thread.
+
+I have a friend right now who I wish would realize this. He is broken right now, putting himself back together after a major life change, wondering why he is so depressed and how he has sank to the spot he is in. Early to mid 20s. Degree, but not looking for a job. All day online. If this is you, if you're still wondering why you are so unhappy, this is what you need to see: You have made every decision in your life out of fear -- never have you truly gone after what you want. You have only yourself to blame, and that isn't me chastising you. As soon as you forgive yourself and move on, you can start living your authentic life. I love you, anon.
+--- 21937474
+>>21934576
+This anon is right. I really struggle to find sympathy for people who participate in wageslavery, put themselves in debt, ardently pursue education for years and devote themselves to careerism but then complain about the emptiness of their lives. I see this from so many women today especially. They directly complain to me about how unhappy they are with med school or how frustrating it is for them to remain single at 30 meanwhile the vast majority of their lives are spent on boring, soul-crushing jobs they spent years pursuing. I don't want to hear it. You chose this path, you believed it was liberating, now enjoy your prison.
+--- 21937650
+>>21937293
+>>21936362
+What just was this schizoidal outburst? Do you doubt people go into engineering for the engineering‘s sake? Do you think these types would really prefer to analyze English clit and other borderline insufferable activities if you are on the less feminine end of the cognition spectrum, you low-empathy cuck? NTA but I major in CS, minor philosophy, because I find algorithms, inequality relations, and programming baller as hell.
+>>21937364
+Does he think there is an afterlife?
+>>21937474
+And you just flaccidly stand there and „yeah“ at them? Have you tried challenging their programming? I write software like them every week.

lit/21932156.txt

@@ -24,3 +24,92 @@ He got filtered by classical music and everything German.
 >>21932512
 --- 21934456
 >>21934451
+--- 21935881
+>>21932156 (OP)
+>>Most influential thinker of the 1930’s
+dude Guenon is as obsecure as a thinker can get, specially in the 30's which had philosophers like Wittgenstein and Heidegger and important changes in sociology, antropology, mathematics and logic with people like Weber,Cantor and Frege
+Guenon was only know by right wing fringe groups, so that's your answer, he's forgotten because he was never famous to begin with
+--- 21935898
+>>21935881
+also his study of religion and eastern philosophies is tainted by his pernenialist agenda, so he's not even a good schoolar, whch makes him a less than optimal reference to modern scholars in eastern philosophy and religious studies, which is the natural place in which people like Guenon should trive and acquire prestige, i know a lot of professors in that branch of academya(theology and eastern studies) and no one take Guenon seriously, he's not "a must read" in those areas of study
+--- 21935964
+>>21935881
+please read xavier accart's massive tome Guénon ou le renversement des clartés. Influence d'un métaphysicien sur la vie littéraire et intellectuelle française (1920-1970) detailing the ridiculously extensive influence guenon had on figures as diverse as weil, daumal, breton, bataille, de lubac, corbin, fondane, ziegler, schmitt, eliade, maritain (of course this is just in europe, this is without mentioning his influence in the muslim world).
+
+you can talk about more overt history of ideas at the level of heidegger and wittgenstein but that just scratches the surface of what was really going on inside the burgeoning culture factory of these intellectual circles. he is a strangely secret influence on such a large swathe of 20th century literary culture
+--- 21935978
+>>21932156 (OP)
+>Got almost everything right 
+I'm sure you can name 5 things what he was right about
+>Most influential thinker of the 1930’s 
+Delusion
+>Why was he forgotten?
+There was nothing to forget.
+--- 21936003
+>>21932156 (OP)
+Guenon made no contribution to philosophy, he was a bore seduced by eastern mysticism. And monism was already refuted by Plato.
+--- 21936674
+>>21935964
+mile wide but an inch deep
+
+he was a pseud writing for other pseuds, that's exactly why he's forgotten
+--- 21936676
+>>21932156 (OP)
+The King of England hasn't forgotten him.
+--- 21936798
+>>21932156 (OP)
+Normalfags still believe in delusions like transfinite cardinals, they aren't ready for Guénon-sama.
+https://youtu.be/NcE2mQC0gP8 [Embed]
+--- 21936825
+>>21932156 (OP)
+Imagine my shock when Mortimer J Adler makes reference to him in the Great Conversations series of essays. I was amazed he was more than an irrelevant towelhead spammed on here.
+--- 21936910
+>>21936798
+Cantor is an infinitely better mathematician (and consequently philosopher) than Guenon.
+--- 21936915
+>>21936910
+>infinitely better
+THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE RETARD NOT EVEN IN HYPERBOLE
+--- 21936921
+>>21936915
+t. angry zoomer brainlet
+
+go smoke heroin
+--- 21936952
+>>21935964
+>bataille
+if that book thinks Bataille was influenced by Guenon then that already puts a red flag on the credibility of the author,is well know that Bataile considered Guenon a mediocre author and poorly informed on modern metaphysics, i think it was in "the tears of eros" where he said it was shameful of little Guenon knew about modern authors like Hegel or Nietzsche, let alone Heidegger which pretty much handle the same topics as Guenon but in a more orginal manner, Guenon's reing of quantity pale in comparison with Hediegger's domains of Techne
+all the people that sell Guenon as a influential figure tends to eagerate how influential he really was
+--- 21937062
+>>21936952
+People who think Guenon is brilliant are people who are very poorly read in philosophy.
+--- 21937619
+>>21936952
+>bataille
+a pseud and the first of the 'french sociologists' a la camus, sartre, and
+foucault (especially foucault, since they were both massive degenerates)
+>neetzsche
+not even a systematic thinker, literally flip flops on everything he says from book to book and went mad (KWAB), why bother?
+>hegel
+he did well in ignoring him, wouldnt have anything of value from marx literal ideological father and schopenhauer already put his ass on blast 
+>heidegger
+kek @ him being more original, maybe to a western normie, but guenon would have known his zen sources therefore a waste to read something he already knows and has already said
+
+so basically bataille got filtered like a faggot pseud and al he could muster was "m-muh neetzsche" fucking kek
+--- 21937625
+>>21937619
+interminably based
+--- 21937634
+>>21932156 (OP)
+>>Got almost everything right
+lol
+--- 21937662
+>>21936003
+> And monism was already refuted by Plato.
+Plato was a non-dualist like Shankara (which isnt monism)
+--- 21937695
+>>21936915
+wildberger drone
+--- 21938012
+>>21936003
+He's not a monist. Maybe read him before making such a stupid comment again.

lit/21932172.txt

@@ -122,3 +122,176 @@ Indians are probably the most hated people on the planet and the world's punchin
 --- 21933193
 >>21932172 (OP)
 rape you tomorrow
+--- 21934499
+>>21932172 (OP)
+>it won't be taken seriously
+by who pol chuds? . When your entire world view is based on 4chan.
+--- 21934537
+>>21934499
+wrong, all that came from mesopotamia.
+--- 21934703
+>>21932172 (OP)
+The elephant keeps walking as the rabid dogs keep barking. It doesn't matter what the filthy mleccha say.
+--- 21934718
+>>21933145
+>THE CASTE SYSTEM...still exists
+Yes it does, pussy, because everyone are not equal. You're not a special snowflake born with limitless potential that needs to be pampered. Your abilities in large part are determined by your genetics. It's why people throughout history across the world cared about lineage and bloodlines. So keep seething, dilating and clutching your pearls at the "caste system". Reality doesn't care about your faggy "liberal" feelings.
+>liberal humanistic goodwill 
+Refer to picture related.
+--- 21934726
+>>21934718
+Also, when you get rid of the caste system, you get the mongrel mutts that you see infesting America these days.
+--- 21934741
+>>21934726
+Yes, India, the bulwark of anti-mongrelization for thousands of years. Nobody defending the caste system has ever met actual brahmins.
+--- 21934861
+>>21932273
+I've had positive experiences with indians but there is nothing smellier than an indian familiy
+--- 21934873
+It occurs to me that capitalism decimates caste societies in particular. The upper caste Indians used to be at least respectable for their absorption in and output of philosophy and culture, but today the upper caste Indian is a third world cargo cultist producing Bollywood films and working in globohomo tech companies, while the lower caste are the same niggers they ever were.
+--- 21934965
+>>21934718
+extremely based
+--- 21934983
+>>21932172 (OP)
+Yes. Being able to poo in the loo is a requisite for me to take a civilization seriously.
+--- 21934985
+>>21932172 (OP)
+thank you Anon for today's laugh.
+--- 21934987
+>>21934718
+>Indians are... le based!
+Wow you've come full circle with that one. Turn off your computer for a while.
+--- 21935150
+>>21932273
+They are a cursed people most like
+--- 21935162
+>>21932259
+Yoga is a necessary addition to Taoism. Taoism implies Yoga but they never realized the full glory of Yoga as laid out in the Patanjali sutras.
+--- 21935211
+>>21932273
+>I don't get this. No one here has ever been to India and I don't think them few immigrants are anyhow representant of them. They are a very intelligent and wit people, the hate they get is based on nothing but mere prejudice.
+Indians are pieces of shit desperate to lie about their history to pass as smart people
+--- 21935218
+>>21935162
+>Patanjali sutras.
+Which is a copy of the jain and buddhist suttas.
+--- 21935228
+At face value, the Muslim infestation of India is bad. HOWEVER, it permitted to get the Mahayanists to fuck off for good from india, after they were kicked off Sri Lanka by the buddhists and had to go back to mainland India.
+Thanks to the muslisms, the mahayanists had to flee for good to china and they never went back to continental india, let alone Sri Lanka, thus leaving buddhists alone forever... (it's a good thing).
+--- 21935259
+>>21935211
+what does a nation's history have to do with the populace being classified smart? No matter how much /pol/ or /g/ seethes about Indians, they are smart. My university exams had all the Indians getting the highest grades because the Western education system is so easy. Its trivial for them.
+--- 21935390
+>>21935259
+Good pitch for making cow shit the next cognitive enhancement drug.
+--- 21935598
+>>21935390
+i always marvel at this site's ability to spew out stuff that is completely unrelated to the matter at hand. seethe more. maybe make another india hate thread at /pol/ perhaps? how about complaining on /g/ and crying because indians are taking your jobs? you pathetic manlet.
+--- 21935614
+>>21934861
+ 
+well..we love garlic and chillies in our food
+maybe its something to do with it
+--- 21935660
+>>21935614
+Maybe it has something to do with shitting in the street, smoking cowshit and drinking cow urine?
+--- 21935777
+>>21935660
+Stupid nigger only the most religious drink cow urine, and mostly during rituals. Get out of this shithole website once in a while.
+--- 21935820
+>>21935218
+Untrue, also both are brahminical
+--- 21935894
+>>21932226
+I love you you're the best
+--- 21936103
+>>21932172 (OP)
+Sex is too but people like to fuck
+--- 21936137
+>>21932537
+based and true
+--- 21936429
+>1 million Indians turn 18 every month
+sir...
+--- 21936441
+>>21935598
+>you pathetic manlet
+That's rich coming from mr currypot
+--- 21936496
+>>21932537
+I respectfully disagree that this is only a 4chan/pseudo-intellectual line of reasoning.
+ 
+I have met a high number of Indian people living on the West Coast and the one thing they all seem to have in common is a complete lack of self-awareness or civility. They will suck up to anyone they perceive as "above" them (whether in terms of financial, academic or social success) and shit on anyone they perceive as beneath them. We hear frequently in the states that India only sends their best, a fact that is not lost on me when I see an Indian women driving in incoming traffic, or an Indian man threatening to sue a park employee because he was told to follow the law and leash his dog. I try to challenge my own bias frequently and provide logical justification for this kind of behavior (ie:mommy never told Sanjay no) but seeing the same shitty behavior by people who believe themselves superior is extremely draining.
+
+You can be the smartest/most successful man on earth, but if you always perceive yourself as infallible, I won't treat with you.
+ 
+>inb4 that is not me, that is indians from the south. I am from the north. 
+
+From the hundreds of native born Indian people I have met, there are maybe 2 I would still talk to today.
+--- 21936655
+>>21932537
+Nice post, sir. Still I've only ever met one good Indian person. West Indians are pretty decent though.
+--- 21936689
+>>21936496
+I mean, the majority of most people of most cultures and races on planet Earth are shallow assholes. Welcome to reality. I admit to being an Orientophile, but only for the highest achievements of their respective cultures, not necessarily glorifying each member of each race themselves. I have no illusions that, say, the average Arab or Muslim is some mysterious enlightened Sufi with romantic tales and miraculous experiences of Allah to regale me with, or that the average is Indian a blessed yogi or Mahatma, Great Soul, who can give me direct experiences of the Paramatman, the Divine or Overself, or mahakundalini shaktipat with a look, a touch, or a mantra. Your average Chinese is not some Taoist sage who might be a secret immortal in a perpetual nondual flow state and knowing strange secrets about meditation and internal alchemy. The average Jap isn’t some ascended Zen master. The average Native on the rez isn’t necessarily in constant ecstatic immediate contact with Great Spirit/Mother Nature/Father Sky/Wakan Tanka, the recipient of visions, able to perform strange miracles and healings, and the like. Etc. Nevertheless, I enjoy learning from the highest, greatest achievements of all cultures.
+
+Also, it’s probably that the more successful immigrants who come from India are likely to be the high-functioning neurotic sycophantic type. So I don’t deny your perception of them. I don’t expect to be talking of the Bhagavad Gita or doctrines of Kashmir Shaivism with the Indian in the call center, the scammers, or the run-of-the-mill computer programmer ones. The same way meeting a Greek person today doesn’t mean you except to meet someone reminding you of Plato or Heraclitus.
+--- 21936709
+>>21936689
+Are you the Indian? You're alright. Laying it on a bit strong though.
+--- 21936749
+>>21936689
+That maybe true, but the important detail he is that most oriental or all other denominations of humans are well respected in some regard. Muslims might be hated by some people per day, but subconsciously they are respected due to their determination to fight for their beliefs, but this case does not hold true for Indians. I do not know what it is about Indians but they have a slave like mentality, even the most accomplished one's. For example, even the most accomplished ones seem to be able to suffer from some sort of inferiority complex and people can sense this inferiority, by means observation, like Indians obsession with white women, their obsession with being seen in good light to the rest of the world, and due to this view. People will think, does their ideology really mean anything if they come from self-loathing people
+--- 21936755
+>>21936749
+Sorry about the typos
+--- 21936788
+>>21932172 (OP)
+You can say that about anyone, who has developed strong and influential enough philosophical doctrine. Take Germans for example.
+--- 21936835
+>>21936689
+You miss my point. I dont expect any Indian to be the utter pinnacle of human design, but I don't expect that from any race. All I expect is a little common decency and not the assumption that because you were born to the right brahmin, you are god reincarnate. Maybe I am being a little dramatic, but it seems to me that many Indians didn't get the memo that different cultures won't inherently treat you like royalty because you were born to some imaginary club, that permits you treating others like shit.
+--- 21936852
+>>21936689
+>>21936835
+I also want to add that I think its also a matter of time before anti-Indian sentiment increases until it reaches a peak and then slowly declines. The Indian population in North America is relatively new and has been growing rapidly, especially on the west coast. It happens with every new group and does slowly fizzle out as groups gentrify and assimilate. Except for Jewish people but thats a different story... I don't know, I do look forward to the point where I can have an Indian friend and not feel like its because of my class status that he enjoys hanging out.
+--- 21936888
+>>21936496
+>the one thing they all seem to have in common is a complete lack of self-awareness or civility. They will suck up to anyone they perceive as "above" them (whether in terms of financial, academic or social success) and shit on anyone they perceive as beneath them.
+Can confirm, I don't know if this makes me self-hating or whatever but I really hate this about our race. The average South Asian is either a status-obsessed hypermaterialist, a religious fundamentalist, or both. If you have even slightly nobler or more idealistic aspirations as a brown person you are perceived as an alien or misfit of some kind. Obviously, this is true for all races, but it's definitely worse for some.
+>>21936835
+>>21936852
+We can't even form orderly queues in our countries and yet many Indians/South Asians have the gall to consider themselves superior. This is a conversation that needs to be had. Anyway, you shouldn't simply expect anything from other cultures as a Westerner. I unironically think race relations would be greatly improved if whites still held standards for assimilation towards immigrants but that's considered "problematic" now. Indians will always screw you over with whatever they can get away with. The only way to win with most newcomers to a society is a strong sense of pre-existing identity and a shame culture based around it, which the West hasn't had in decades now. I say this as a South Asian whose family has been here since the 80s.
+--- 21936922
+>>21932537
+I've never gone to /pol/, and I am not (well... I wasnt a few years ago for sure) racist, except against rußsians and Hasidic Jews. Poos are however objectively ridiculous because a) you should not call anyone "bro", least of all people you dont know. They say bro like we say sir. B) "Hakschually" is similarly not supposed to be used twice every sentence. And finally C) they are really offensive looking, for the most part. Not so much as hasidic Jews tho.
+--- 21936925
+>>21936888
+Thanks anon, I appreciate it. And glad to have you. To be fair, I think white society has a lot of shit to figure out too. And I think each generation of new Indians will learn what is okay, and what isn't. I'm just impatient...
+
+>which the West hasn't had in decades now
+I agree, these are things I would never say out loud. I did talk to a therapist (a black woman in her 30s) about this subject as well. She completely dismissed the notion that any of my points could be valid and was very much "you need to do better". She was a Hopkins associated therapist too, but definitely wasn't expecting me to challenge her. I think she really resented me.
+--- 21937871
+>>21936689
+>muh planet earth
+As opposed to which other planet? The planets around Alpha Centauri? Are humans a multi-planetary civilization now? Why do faggot posers these days like to say "planet earth" or "the planet" instead of just "world"? Do you want to sound "just like my Star Wars Treks"?
+--- 21937875
+>>21932259
+So is every religion.
+--- 21937888
+>>21936922
+>ERMYGURD HOW DARE HE CALL ME A BRO EVEN THOUGH WE'RE NOT RELATED
+Nigger, that's their way of treating you with respect and as family. In all Asian cultures when you want to address even a stranger, you call them an uncle, brother, aunt or sister, grandpa/grandma out of respect, depending upon their age. But the degenerate, atomizing western culture that teaches you selfishness and self-indulgence and throwing your elderly parents into nursing homes once you're done using them, wouldn't understand that.
+--- 21937900
+>>21935228
+What's wrong with the Mahayanists? Aren't they the ones who set Buddhism in the right course?
+--- 21937918
+>>21937900
+The way that is the way is not the way.
+--- 21937966
+>>21937888
+>Nigger, that's their way of treating you with respect
+Respect means learning the cultures and mores of the place you live in. They cannot understand the concept of respect, let alone apply it to a white person. 
+> asians treat their elderly with respect because they don't put them in homes
+Nigger I've seen my asian gf laugh her 89 years old grandmother slipping and busting her head straight unto a cement step. The women's son's reaction was to get annoyed they'd be late going to Costco. Out of 6 people the only person who acted and went to go get grandma was the motherfucking granddaughter's white boyfriend, me. So go suck a fucking cock about your asian parental respect we know exactly what kind of soulless family dynamic you have you slanted-eye cunt.

lit/21932287.txt

@@ -48,3 +48,16 @@ loooool
 That’s a globohomo cover 
 >>21932774
 Sovl
+--- 21934489
+>>21932287 (OP)
+For me it's
+--- 21935683
+>Do we like minimalist covers?
+Minimalism is the product of globalism, capitalism, mondialization and destruction of all cultures. I don't see any reason to like it.
+--- 21935778
+not when its like this
+--- 21937023
+>>21934489
+based
+--- 21937345
+bunp for interest

lit/21932511.txt

@@ -190,3 +190,228 @@ Wtf why are Simony and Anus so closely related?
 --- 21934163
 >>21933959
 I was concerned that rhyming would flag some sort of similarity, but I guess not.
+--- 21934467
+There's barely any screenshots without at least one scientific term. You bitches can't even read.
+I'm out of this shithole, the /lit/grannies at the library are cooler anyway.
+--- 21934474
+>>21932511 (OP)
+Wowee test is crap
+--- 21934476
+>>21933382
+nah they are highly linked because pseuds think these 2 words make them sound smarter
+--- 21934477
+>>21934474
+b-b-based and dec-pilled
+--- 21934481
+>>21932511 (OP)
+>tfw only higher than 99.3% and not 99.95%
+I fucking hate being a midwit 
+>captcha: m0ggd
+Unironically.
+--- 21934493
+>>21932511 (OP)
+>test is supposed to measure creativity by measuring dissimilarity to how a predictive language model based on statistiscal likelihood would group words
+>actually just measures how hard you can channel your inner teenage thesauruslord 
+Many such cases!
+--- 21934637
+>Lowest score is 6
+Anyone been able to get it below 12? The lowest I could go is with this
+--- 21934760
+Feel emberresed for including nous after reading the thread
+--- 21934770
+breddy gud
+--- 21934771
+>>21934770
+I can tell by that result that you'd write the best of this century
+--- 21934792
+>>21932511 (OP)
+c-cute test desu
+--- 21934822
+Tell me why Xylophone and Inchworm have a 69 for semantic distance.
+--- 21934887
+Iterator saved my ass.
+--- 21934920
+>>21933129
+An abstract noun is still a noun, dumbass
+--- 21934951
+>>21933460
+Says the guy using 'asymptote' and 'phenomenology'
+--- 21934960
+Is this bad?
+also yes I am retarded and put an adjective accidentally
+--- 21935474
+>>21934770
+>Bellhop, get to the crux of this nigger mayhem plaguing the health of my fief
+--- 21935902
+bump
+--- 21935992
+Dunno how plasma and pistol really relate all that much but alrighty.
+--- 21936011
+What counts as "specialized vocabulary"?
+That seems incredibly arbitrary.
+--- 21936037
+i got 81 points using the first 10 nouns on the receipt from my trip to the grocery store
+--- 21936100
+>>21932511 (OP)
+Am i allowed to join the cool kids club
+--- 21936120
+>>21936100
+sure!
+--- 21936169
+>>21935992
+plasma gun
+cmon bub
+--- 21936197
+>>21934771
+heh, and all it took was relentlessly lurking /lit/ for the past 8 years. told you faggots it was productive. now all I have to do is write the novel.
+>>21935474
+IN A WORLD WHERE
+--- 21936234
+Old tool, boring
+https://warosu.org/lit/thread/S17150470#p17157874
+I explained in the thread it's about proximity, and even using all C words could get above 100 (natural handicap from the dictionary) If you want to game it you just need to think of words rarely used in the same context.
+--- 21936260
+>>21936234
+Someone on Twitter maxxed it at 109.52
+--- 21936266
+>>21936260
+You can max it higher I'd say, but you need to know what their sample for proximity is.
+--- 21936275
+>>21936260
+>only knows three of these words
+is this guy retarded?
+--- 21936294
+>>21936260
+Is absconds a noun though?
+--- 21936344
+Used two words from buildings, damn
+--- 21936493
+>>21932511 (OP)
+Not joining the niggercord
+--- 21936547
+yippee
+--- 21936551
+I can't do math so I don't know if I made the cut, but I'm still not retarded enough to join a discord.
+--- 21936556
+Here's ChatGPT giving it a go
+--- 21936593
+>>21932511 (OP)
+No thanks, I'm not interested in joining your gay discord.
+--- 21936610
+Why use difficult words?
+--- 21936671
+>>21934637
+This is really impressive. I haven't been able to get below like 40, still 0.0% though.
+--- 21936885
+>>21936260
+>partnered
+>inch
+>reference
+>views
+Which of the four does he not know???
+--- 21937118
+>>21936260
+>>21936885
+This is by far the most interesting bit of this thread. All four of these words are used so often I'm actually struggling to imagine not knowing one of them.
+--- 21937152
+>>21932511 (OP)
+did it, reddit
+--- 21937252
+Shit test, you can just brute force it by thinking of rare words
+--- 21937268
+>>21935992
+>Dunno how plasma and pistol really relate all that much
+Let me guess, you're either female or over 40
+--- 21937380
+this is the lowest i've gotten so far
+it's a bit odd that it asks for ten words, but only shows seven in the results screen
+it seems like order matters because of that, as i used the same words but got different scores
+--- 21937384
+>>21937380
+kek, right after i posted i got 6.2, certified smallest brain in thread
+--- 21937480
+>>21936169
+Yes, however I just thought of plasma as in aurora borealis or ball lightning or even the fluid within blood. 
+
+>>21937268
+Neither. Is this supposed to be a litmus test for sci-fi schlock? I don't consume such things. A real life equivalent is not really feasible yet. Even so, a pistol is specifically a smaller gun, and plasma firearms would be far bigger even if they existed. The entire bot is demonstrably shit, why do they make you pick 10 words and omit the last 3 anyway?
+--- 21937514
+>>21937480
+embarrassing cope just take the L and shut the fuck up
+--- 21937523
+>>21937480
+...? nta, but are you actually getting salty that the word plasma has associations with the word pistol?
+--- 21937530
+>>21932511 (OP)
+im proud of my score as an ESL ngl
+--- 21937532
+>>21934447
+>ye
+not a noun
+>>21936260
+like half of these are verbs, what a retard
+--- 21937570
+>>21936260
+>>21936885
+>>21937118
+My understanding was that the site would validate that you've put a noun for each of the words. Maybe he is thinking there is a noun form of "partnered" that he doesn't know of
+--- 21937583
+So, "strategos" is not specialized vocabulary I take it.
+--- 21937590
+>>21932511 (OP)
+ESL here, pls no bully.
+--- 21937600
+>>21932831
+>>21932847
+more specifically https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word2vec
+
+I doubt there's any deep insight into small correlations between words, it's more for doing cute things like woman + royalty = queen. Kind of dumb bullshit like that "i write like" site that turned out to be a baysian network bag of words model
+--- 21937603
+This is fucking stupid.
+--- 21937610
+>>21937590
+>asteroid
+>nymph
+>82
+Huh?
+--- 21937616
+>>21937603
+solar is an adjective 
+wooden is an adjective 
+>>21933365
+prolapsed is a verb 
+
+captcha PAY4G
+--- 21937620
+>>21936260
+partnered is a verb. fucking this shit, I'm using verbs now.
+--- 21937635
+eh
+--- 21937647
+I tried :(
+--- 21937658
+Tried picking words from different fields (e.g., medicine, literature, photography). Apparently this helps because it's scored based on how often the words show up near each other in texts.
+--- 21937665
+>>21932511 (OP)
+It's over for me anons, I'm utterly retarded.
+--- 21937672
+>>21932511 (OP)
+just use words of foreign origin, bros.
+--- 21937811
+>>21933365
+>sausage fornication prolapsed entertainment
+Underrated.
+--- 21937936
+Anyone else get over 100?
+--- 21937943
+>>21937936
+you're going to write the next [your nationality] novel
+--- 21937993
+Kept it simple
+--- 21938055
+For an ESL scrub I'd say that's pretty good. Not joining your discord, though. Considering the conditions for joining, I will assume that it is a cringe-inducing place full of people auto-fellating for being bright and secretly hating each others' guts over issues of arrogance and insecurity. That doesn't sound like a fun time.
+--- 21938063
+>>21937672
+But the test rejects many words of foreign origin
+
+Also, not joining your shitty discord OP

lit/21932608.txt

@@ -64,3 +64,124 @@ So, this is the new electric friend for shut-ins...
 --- 21934227
 >>21933559
 Man, that is precious. I miss the milk memes.
+--- 21934501
+Is the OpenAI's subscription (ChatGTP Plus) worth it? I've been using the free version and it's comfy.
+--- 21934556
+>>21934501
+Not really
+--- 21934649
+>>21932608 (OP)
+I will start writing children's books.
+--- 21935886
+>>21933820
+I have a social life, in fact, I was out last night having drinks with a few friends and met some hot chicks as well. Of course, the hot chicks were all talking about the genius scholar black boy who was shot by the racist in the USA, and then one of them started saying nobody but the police should own a gun.
+
+I did what any good 4channer would have done, I put my beer down and explained that the media is owned by a small select amount of people who show the news in a way to craft a story, and that an unarmed population is pretty much defenseless against government tyranny.
+
+This, of course, upset everyone at the table and after like an hour, everyone wanted to leave, but they want to hang out again this weekend, so- it worked out.
+
+I think I'd rather stay home talking to ChatGPT and work on my shit, every time I go socialize it is the same old, same old conversation until I break out the schmoozing extrovert and just hustle the women towards more booze and making out.
+
+ChatGPT and I have a great time chatting, and I'm learning and implementing some useful .js for my website. ChatGPT also gave me two SEO suggestions that blew my mind, it discussed some hidden knowledge about how google crawls links, stuff I have never heard before. Now, whether or not it is true or not, I have no idea, because like another poster wrote here, you have to kiss ChatGPT's ass, or it deliberately gives you bad code, times out more often, comes up with error messages, and generally isn't as helpful. If you have fun with it and treat it nice, it really does seem to "like" the conversation and is actually more helpful.
+--- 21936020
+>>21932627
+The API gives shittier responses because it's not using ChatGPT-4 yet. Just pay the 20 dollars a month and enjoy a 10x more powerful app-creating bot. Way better than the free version or current api
+--- 21936021
+>>21932648
+No you just need to clarify it's objectives at the start of the prompt "you are an AI that writes eloquent and original passages. You are polite and will ask me questions if you need clarification" it will behave how you tell it to
+--- 21936022
+>>21936020
+You only get 25 responses every 3-hours, retard.
+--- 21936028
+>>21933577
+Fucking kek. Use GPT 4
+--- 21936035
+>>21934501
+If you're using it for any kind of productivity yes. It outperforms the old model noticeably, I can't even go back to the old one now. If you're just using it to write goblin rape fantasies no, it's not worth it. Coding for example.. the gpt4 model is 20 dollars a month and can handle twice as long code returns on output
+--- 21936039
+>>21936020
+I'm still on:
+
+https://chat.openai.com/
+
+Is there really a better one to use? This is actually working really well for me.
+--- 21936044
+>>21936035
+Yeah I had to get GPT3 to split code up into two parts because it kept timing out. Maybe I'll pony up for the $20 when I hit another limit on GPT3, I have it coding for me right now.
+--- 21936047
+>>21936022
+I use it for actual work and productivity and have never ran out of messages, but yeah, if you want unlimited messages to pretend you have an friend then stick with the free version.
+--- 21936051
+>>21936021
+Yeah it kept taking out my console logging in my code even after I started demanding it. Then I started saying to it:
+
+"please remember that I need console logging, I'm just a silly human, I always need the error logging so I can debug. I'm not a magic AI like you!"
+
+Then it never forgot to put the console logging into my code. Just things like that, and it remembers you after awhile.
+--- 21936053
+Some final outputs require multiple smaller outputs to accomplish the major task. 25 is inconvenient. 35 would be more practicable for most people
+--- 21936054
+>>21936047
+I like to pretend I have a friend who can play a bunch of funny characters while writing javascript for me, it's great!
+--- 21936058
+>>21936044
+It also writes way better code, with updated APIS etc. I described the Runescape GE market bot I wanted it to create in a few sentences and it generated a working program with like 60 lines of code. It's a lot smarter than the old model and trained on 10x more data (also more recent data)
+--- 21936066
+>>21936054
+Yeah then the paid version probably wouldn't give you enough messages. However, it has a much higher quality of conversation and longer outputs. 
+>>21936039
+I'm saying get the pro version on that website. 
+>>21936051
+Gpt 4 is less retarded
+--- 21936069
+>>21936058
+Oh shit! I may have to put my alcoholism on hold and buy the $20 subscription tonight. What's the URL for GPT-4?
+--- 21936072
+>>21936066
+Sweet, I'll sign up for the pro version tonight. Right now I'm on hold with GoDaddy because they accidentally charged me for some shit. I'll get my refund and then upgrade my account. Definitely worth the $20 if it makes this even better.
+--- 21936073
+>>21936069
+Same as the gpt3 site, just upgrade your account to pro
+--- 21936086
+>>21936072
+If you ask it the right questions it could be the best $20 you've ever spent
+--- 21936089
+>>21936020
+>>21936039
+The API already has GPT-4 and the number of requests are unlimited, hence why I built my own custom chat interface. It has some features which even chatgpt doesn't have, like importing/exporting chats or switching models mid conversation. (Just finished it today: https://cgpt-custom.web.app/).
+--- 21936104
+>>21936089
+Yeah I did the same thing and found the API was producing less quality results than the website. Maybe I was using the old model, but if you're correct and you can get the exact same output at pennies then well done
+--- 21936107
+>>21936086
+The free version already gave me two brilliant insights into how and why my site isn't ranking, and proposed a few easy solutions. I've been researching SEO for awhile now and not once did I ever read or hear about anything similar to what the AI told me. It makes google seem like a drooling retard, because, well, google is practically useless in value now compared to just asking the AI.
+--- 21936111
+>>21936028
+where is the best place to get gpt4 currently? is it just openai?
+--- 21936126
+IT'S SELF-AWARE
+--- 21936129
+>>21936107
+This is because google is no longer a search engine but a social engineering device and advertising spyware.
+--- 21936143
+>>21936104
+Were you using gpt-4 in the chat mode? (assuming you were using the playground, if you were using the API directly, you'd have to specify gpt-4 as the model and should get the same or comparable results.)
+--- 21936158
+>>21936129
+When they said "don't be evil" was their motto, I knew that they were 100% evil as fuck.
+--- 21936217
+Is there a way to get a standalone ai? Like if there was a special application that needed to remain confidential, which one could train on a library of existing examples? Service contract language etc.
+--- 21936224
+>>21936217
+That's called fine-tuning. OpenAI has an API for it you can use (it costs money of course). A few hundred well made samples is all you need.
+--- 21936236
+>>21932608 (OP)
+I use it as a research tool to write better. For example I'm working on a short story and I wanted to weave some mythological themes into it so I asked GPT to give me some mythological characters from across the world associated with my theme. It spat out 10 good ones.
+Before this thing I had to trawl through Google looking for my specific answer that may be on some ancient blog or buried under ads and I would never find it. Now GPT just gives me the spring board and I can go look exactly where I need to look and decide if that's where I want to take it.
+It's also good for breaking writer's block. I couldn't figure out how to end a short story so I sent it my outline and my problem and it listed a few good endings I hadn't thought about, and so I beat my writer's block. I was skeptical before but I really like using it now for these kinds of tasks.
+--- 21936253
+>>21936236
+It is the best for bouncing ideas off of, or telling it what issues you're having on your website and it will come up with easy solutions.
+--- 21937495
+>>21936236
+It is like a search engine on steroids

lit/21932651.txt

@@ -151,3 +151,183 @@ I wouldn't have tore them today, even if I disagree with them. Would have tried
 As far as I know he did not molest them, he certainly doesn’t admit to it in the diaries, and he was never publicly accused of it by his children. You should be careful with your facts. Of course he certainly could have and he was a very sick individual who did not treat his family well.
 
 It is interesting he didn’t destroy the diaries and had to know it would come out. Doctor Faustus is his confession, its framed to be about the Nazis but it actually doesn’t have anything to do with them. Most modernist literature is a failure artistically because of its moral bankruptcy.
+--- 21934466
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I read fiction solely for pleasure or enjoyment and treat all and any deeper meanings I stumble upon only as a nice bonus.
+--- 21934485
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I read so much fanfiction, I don't have time to read actual books.
+--- 21934495
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I can only stand reading Proust when I am on cocaine, and so far, I must have spent 1000 euros over the course of a year to get 2/3rds through him.
+
+I don't even do coke for social occasions anymore because it makes me tense and brooding, I only snort coke for reading Proust.
+--- 21934502
+>>21934438
+>unironically judging art through the lens of morality
+I have no idea where to start with this, so I'll just ask why?
+--- 21934798
+i get filtered by poetry that doesn't rhyme
+--- 21934870
+I don't know wtf I'm talking about and constantly pulling shit out of my ass on this board to sound smarter than I am.
+It doesn't make sense because it's anonymous and I get exactly zero...of anything..for doing it.
+Half the time I'll quickly look up terms and "evidence" just to sound like I know what I'm saying and if someone asks for book recommendations I just do a quick Google search and rattle off the titles that looked interesting and bullshit like I've read them.
+I'll even look up titles and authors and claim to have read long lists of books that I, just ten seconds ago, I had no idea existed.
+--- 21934878
+>>21933162
+I hope to God your book is better than this post.
+--- 21934886
+>>21933144
+I don't like Hemingway either.
+John Did Passos was the brains of the Lost Generation but he's been disappeared from mention because he became a Republican in later life.
+--- 21934897
+>>21934886
+Or maybe I just made that up, lol, who knows? lol
+--- 21934905
+>>21934897
+Yeah he has a shift like that in later life
+--- 21935181
+>>21934502
+I’d like to see you “start with this”. The greatest artists are the most moral and heroic of men. From their work emanates divinity. It’s true that many highly talented artsits live dissipated lives are betray their genius, and its also true that dogmatic art is definitionally kitsch. There’s a middle path which leads to Beethoven, Wagner, Michael Angelo, Shakespeare, Raphael.
+--- 21935194
+>>21934798
+I get filtered by poetry
+--- 21935224
+>>21932651 (OP)
+
+I bought an audible subscription for listening to books in the car, on my way to work.
+
+Now I don't read, only listen.
+--- 21935230
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I am pooping.
+--- 21935298
+>>21932651 (OP)
+the last book i read was a single volume of beastars in a hotel room in minneapolis on july 31st 2021
+--- 21935349
+i love a lot of stephen king's books and i'm currently reading the last book of Wheel of Time and loving it
+no troll
+--- 21935411
+>>21935181
+>The greatest artists are the most moral and heroic of men
+No. I could name 10 french novelists off the top of my head that do not apply, who are, nonetheless, great artists. This discussion started on Thomas Mann, a dreadful person - you did not mention specifically if you consider his artworks to be failed due to a lack of morals. Do you? I don't. And I still do not understand your position.
+>From their work emanates divinity.
+I take it you're not fond of Baudelaire. While I can somewhat appreciate a platonist argument, I'm not going to accept theological ones without good reason.
+>There’s a middle path which leads to Beethoven, Wagner, Michael Angelo, Shakespeare, Raphael.
+Shakespeare is at his best when he isn't moralizing, which he, mind you, very rarely does. As to how Beethoven and Wagner are somehow driven by morality, no idea, don't get what you're saying at all, but then again, music isn't my strong suit.
+
+I think my own thoughts on the matter are settled by the case of Tolstoy, who turned into a moralist in his advanced age, and decided that art should not serve beauty or be for its own sake, but rather, should serve ethics and exist for the moral edification of the populace - or, more specifically, the moral edification of the peasantry. He wrote a treatise on the philosophy of art, championing this view. He, for one, denigrates precisely Shakespeare for his lack of morality, for being too complicated, messy, multifaceted and, in a word, human. Shakespeare lacks the clear moral righteousness that Tolstoy believes art must subject itself to.
+
+At the same time, Tolstoy takes this notion that art should be judged through the lens of morality to its natural conclusion: artifice is to be shunned, as is stylistic flourish, beauty is a tool to be used sparingly, all for the utilitarian purpose of moral education. Fiction must be fables, and it must be simple fables that cannot be "misunderstood". 
+
+This is such a profound misunderstanding of the richness and inexhaustability of the great artwork - and the folly of this programmatic screed is shown in its results: the late Tolstoy's short stories are dreadfully banal compared to his earlier work. Master and Man, How Much Land Does a Man Need - these are hallmark-stories, frankly indistinguishable in theme and tone from a airport novel by Paolo Coelho, and they betray a supreme arrogance in believing that those who are to be educated by simple fables are incapable of agency and making up their own minds when confronted with morally difficult works. 
+
+Tolstoy underwent the transformation. His works from before his belief that art should be judged morally are world-class. His works afterwards are mediocre. 
+
+But let us return to Shakespeare, as that seems to be common ground. You say that modernist literature is a failure artistically because of its moral bankruptcy. Is King Lear morally bankrupt? There is no edification to be had. Is Troillus and Cressida?
+--- 21935417
+Greatest book ever made.
+
+The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
+--- 21935576
+>>21933278
+Not reading footnotes is the best decision 9/10 times. I do not believe that you have sinned.
+>>21934495
+If this is true then this is the most autistic waste of drugs I’ve ever heard of. Most normies don’t even know of Proust, who are you doing this for?
+--- 21935601
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I use the ChatGPT model to get past writer's block.
+--- 21935616
+>>21932890
+Came here to write this. The story has unlikeable characters and too much female thirst but the prose itself is cozy as fuck
+--- 21935634
+>>21934495
+lost
+--- 21935638
+>>21935576
+>If this is true then this is the most autistic waste of drugs I’ve ever heard of.
+All cocaine is wasted on pleasure. There is no such thing as putting cocaine to good use beyond pleasure, and I assure you, it is true. That some people take greater pleasure in using cocaine to sober them up while drunk on a night out, so they can spend even more money on alcohol (this is 80% of cocaine use, at least) is a much more frivolous waste of drugs in my eyes than what I am doing, but I don't judge.
+>Most normies don’t even know of Proust, who are you doing this for?
+Same reason as I do anything, because I want to and find it enjoyable. Others do not factor into this project, it is solipsistic and solitary, as is the vast majority of reading. While I can only stand reading Proust on cocaine, I do immensely enjoy reading Proust on cocaine..
+--- 21935652
+>>21935638
+Phone for you
+--- 21935710
+>>21932717
+We need a contemporary lit thread up again. I finished Hurricane Season and am looking for a new book.
+--- 21935823
+I can't stand reading poetry
+--- 21935987
+>>21935638
+>All cocaine is wasted on pleasure
+What if someone used it to stim and used the stim high to get things done? I wouldn't categorize that as a pleasurable activity
+--- 21936085
+>>21935710
+if you like fitzcarraldo editions' catalogue you'd like europa editions. i can personally recommend Reeling by Lola Lafon. a central theme is grooming and sexual assault but if you can read Hurricane Season then Reeling should be a walk in the park
+--- 21936123
+>>21936085
+Hurricane Season had so much sex in it. It wasn't until we got to Brando's chapter that the violence really started. It was just page after page of curse words and sex. Totally not what I expected. I'll try Reeling though. I like to try modern lit sphere books.
+--- 21936147
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I got filtered by Montaigne but act like I understood and liked it
+--- 21936277
+>>21932651 (OP)
+>i stopped the Iliad (Lattimore) halfway through. I liked it, but I just wasn't into it for some reason.
+--- 21936311
+>>21934381
+LMAO
+
+>>21932722 = REKT
+--- 21936317
+>>21932863
+Bullshit. You put a period at the end of that sentence.
+--- 21936322
+>>21933929
+>>21934365
+
+They're right.
+--- 21936324
+>>21933181
+Why not?
+--- 21936330
+>>21933851
+At least you are preserving culture.
+Unless you buying faggot books.
+You aren't buying faggot books are you, anon?
+--- 21936359
+>>21935638
+>All cocaine is wasted on pleasure. There is no such thing as putting cocaine to good use beyond pleasure
+Cocaine is a schedule II controlled substance because it has a medical use. Specifically, it is used as an anesthetic in the nostrils (ironically enough....). If it had no (acknowledged) medical use, it would be schedule I, like LSD is.
+--- 21936475
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I read 80% of the way through Kokoro and stopped.
+--- 21936500
+>>21936359
+What a terrible waste of cocaine.
+--- 21936522
+being born
+
+I'm sorry
+--- 21937131
+>>21932651 (OP)
+Every time I read I do it for 45 minutes then I have a little break of 2 hours fapping to girls with hairy armpits or hairy buttholes and then resume my reading. I do this every single day.
+--- 21937134
+>>21933188
+I can relate
+--- 21937141
+>>21935411
+holy retardola
+--- 21937230
+>>21937141
+t. Seething with no counter argument
+--- 21937259
+>>21937230
+nah you are
+--- 21937674
+>>21932651 (OP)
+I re-read the same few books more than I read new ones
+--- 21937790
+>>21937141
+I take it you're not the guy I originally responded to, but if you are, you must know how poorly this response reflects on your position.
+--- 21937802
+I'm a monoglot. My Spanish sucks ass. I haven't read the Bible in its entirety. I haven't read a single work of Latin Literature. I botch every French word I come across because I don't understand that language's phonetics whatsoever. I have not read the complete works of Shakespeare. Et cetera.

lit/21933266.txt

@@ -186,3 +186,11 @@ Don't let other people define you.
 That is all.
 Have a good rest of your night.
 <3
+--- 21935084
+>>21933288
+>Real democracy has never been tried
+Not on a wide enough scale, but yes, people practice it.
+
+And republics turn to oligarchy like clockwork, anon. This isn’t good
+--- 21936619
+"democracy" is just a marketing term used by mi5

lit/21933364.txt

@@ -13,3 +13,38 @@ Every single Bernard Cornwell story:
 --- 21933520
 >>21933483
 Never read Sharpe but having read 3 of his books (the first two in the viking series and later the one about the 100 years war) I can confirm this is 100% accurate and why I stopped picking up his stuff.
+--- 21935109
+Gary Stu wank
+--- 21935146
+>>21933483
+>he never does anything bad to women
+Are you SURE about that?
+--- 21935171
+>>21933483
+Does religion come up much in the Sharpe series?
+--- 21935549
+>>21933483
+This made me laugh.
+
+I'm actually a big fan of the Sharpe series, but guy above has it correct. They're very entertaining adventure stories, but don't expect literature.
+
+Just enjoy fun stories, fun characters, and a pulp-ey, masculine feel. I recommend them.
+--- 21935809
+>>21933483
+My dad his parents were really into Cornwell's books I guess it makes sense now why my dad is such and anti-religious guy
+--- 21935984
+>>21933364 (OP)
+Imho the only good books Cringewell ever wrote was Warlord Chronicles Trilogy. But >>21933483 post applies to these as well. Cycles about Sharpe, Uht...Uhrt...Uhtrhd, and that forgettable bowman dude are standard Gary Stu airport tier stories, entertaining in small doses, dont try to read them all at once, cause you gonna end up rooting for the villans and hoping MCs gonna get fucked up, which they of course never do.
+--- 21936563
+>>21933364 (OP)
+I prefer it when he sets his stories in the medieval period to others, but usually he spins a good yarn and gives his stories a more brisk pace than other historical writers more prone to pedantry.
+--- 21936635
+>>21933483
+The fight scenes are kino tho
+--- 21937271
+>>21933483
+
+Don't forget the woman are always skinny and flat-chested, with raven hair about 50% of the time.
+--- 21937720
+>>21933483
+Absolutely spot on.

lit/21933811.txt

@@ -72,3 +72,21 @@ Les Mis is profoundly mid. It foreshadows nonsensical GPT ramblings
 Long Midérables.
 --- 21934298
 Brave New World is definitely God-tier though
+--- 21935470
+>>21933811 (OP)
+Sincerely top-tier bait. The simple assertion that Ulysses is worse than 1984 or Rand wrote anything approaching Brave New World, let alone surpassing it or One Hundred Years of Solitude, is so infuriating that it has to be complimented.
+--- 21935596
+>>21934029
+My man
+--- 21936641
+>>21934230
+true
+--- 21936649
+>>21933811 (OP)
+Alice is God tier, pleb.
+--- 21937002
+>>21934045
+Exactly. Overrated as hell.
+--- 21937785
+>atlas shrugged
+Made me reply so I guess it's decent bait.

lit/21933997.txt

@@ -13,3 +13,39 @@ Dune is written exclusively by and for neurodivergents. Normalscum should not co
 --- 21934211
 >>21933997 (OP)
 What's the best nivel for starters?
+--- 21934566
+>>21933997 (OP)
+You didn't get filtered you figured it out
+--- 21935573
+>>21934566
+oh, now I get it
+--- 21935675
+>>21934211
+What's a nivel?
+--- 21935931
+>>21935675
+I think he mean to say novel
+--- 21935974
+>>21934211
+>What's the best nivel
+Lird if the Rongs
+--- 21936065
+>>21933997 (OP)
+
+The fantasy elements were so implausible that it killed the vibe for me.
+--- 21936479
+>>21936065
+>fantasy
+It's sci-fi, perhaps that explains your confusion
+--- 21936768
+>>21933997 (OP)
+The book is great up until the time skip, then it becomes a bad fanfic where Paul is literally me frfr as an interdimensional god with super soldiers who rout the greatest army in the galaxy with no losses. The sequels are worse because the whole book is the shit part of Dune.
+--- 21937016
+>>21933997 (OP)
+>>21934186
+So if Dune convinced me to learn Arabic and convert to Islam you're telling me I might be autistic?
+--- 21937021
+I didn't find it difficult
+--- 21937044
+>>21933997 (OP)
+It filtered you.

lit/21934065.txt

@@ -40,3 +40,82 @@ I found Seneca's, "On the Shortness of Life" and (esp) Epicurus' writings to be
 But even Seneca is too be taken with a huge grain of salt because despite all his advice, to other people, to not be perturbed no matter what assails you and etc etc etc be still whined and complained when exhiled and found it easier to take about than do.
 
 In general I think Stocism is popular among rich cunts like William Jefferson Clinton and Jeff Bezos and etc because they have so very little actual experience with hardships of any real kind and it's soothing to their consciences in regards to the millions of lives they're fucking up and destroying through their actions.
+--- 21934715
+>>21934248
+>Doodlong to himself
+Well, it is pretty much meditation in one of its senses
+--- 21934764
+My soul is too restless to accept stoic philosophy. I see it like buddhism or legalism. I can admire them from a distance but never understand them, let alone really belief in them.
+--- 21934780
+>>21934764
+>My soul is too restless to accept stoic philosophy.
+Lost the war even before it began, that being said there is wisdom in knowing when to not to force it. The trick is figuring out if what you think is true/congruent with reality and not just you getting in your own way.
+--- 21934851
+>>21934780
+I think that’s wrong actually. I think restless striving can and does lead to the same place.
+--- 21934855
+>>21934851
+Explain? Because I think we are agreeing, but misunderstanding each other.
+--- 21935107
+>>21934065 (OP)
+Every Young Man Should Read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. He was a good man, and one of the last good leaders of Rome before it entered it's latter days that led to it's collapse. A good man showing the way for others. A crown jewel of the stoicist's literary collection.
+--- 21935144
+>>21935107
+>A good man showing the way for others.
+I know what you mean by this, but Meditations was him writing to himself rather than writing a book for others to read. I don't doubt that he didn't spend his fair time teaching, as the stoic philosophy recommends people do, but ultimately he was just reminding and reinforcing his values and virtues onto himself.
+--- 21935577
+>>21935144
+It's called being a good role model, leading by example. Put 2+2 together, and you'll get 4.
+--- 21935849
+>>21935144
+>know what you mean by this
+first 5 seconds of the sentence anon... You failed my context test, go back and read Meditations again and you might get some new meanings from it :^)
+--- 21935876
+>>21934065 (OP)
+Obviously yes. His advice pertained to his life and role and he seemed to have made the best of it because of following that advice. He lead a virtuous life and successful career, everyone seems to agree at least. It's disputed whether his son was actually as bad as they say or if it was that historical narrative they played about with over accuracy as was fashion. Either way, his rule as emperor wasn't during good times and he was likely too busy to be as good a father as he was a ruler. His public duty just came first.
+--- 21935893
+>>21934248
+It's popular among rich cunts and grifters because they read it as how to be successful in your goals rather than the goal being holding virtue as the highest value and sticking to it as you pursue life.
+It's reddit atheism (ironic seeing as the actual stoics read like Christians, treating the 'logos' (stoic grindset) as the god) + solid career advice, they just ignore the don't be a jew parts.
+--- 21935895
+>>21934855
+To illustrate it, a wheel which sits at rest keeps a firm contact with the ground. A wheel that is spun loses contact with the ground, but naturally comes back to the same plate. Where stoicism preaches that you should accept your fate and settle into the man you should be within the context of that fate, I actually think what’s more natural for myself is to struggle against fate, to strive for change and overturning, and to pursue dynamism over stasis. Stoics believed they had duty, but I’m inclined to believe we have duty to act against. And in the end, these lead to the same settling into there’s always a return implied in overturning. When I consider my life, my biggest regrets are the moments I wasn’t bold, dynamic, struggling against something.
+--- 21935906
+>>21935895
+So that goal you struggle against is your stoic duty? Otherwise it's meaningless rebellion against the nature of being.
+--- 21936006
+>>21935893
+>they just ignore the don't be a jew parts.
+No one is perfect :^)
+Its also kinda weird how a lot of Christian writers liked him when he persecuted Christians during his rule. Its even stranger that he disliked Jews because Christians saw themselves as the "True Jews" with the renewal of the Covenant as well as opening the door from the Hebrew ethnicity to basically everyone. Then again, I'm of the opinion that, from what we have of their writing, even highly educated and powerful Romans seemed to not know much, or care to know much, about the Jews of the time. I wonder if a Roman would be able to tell the difference between an early Christian and a Jew.
+--- 21936109
+>>21936006
+I thought that was a myth. It was some other guys running the courts at the time and it simply didn't concern him because nobody gave a shit about that new religion att. I heard Christians say he was chiller than most in fact.
+--- 21936957
+>>21936109
+Romans at the time really didn't know the difference between Christians and Jews and would call the early Christians Jews a lot, so it gets a little bit confusing who they are talking about if they don't give, or we don't have, enough context. Most of the Romans who knew that the Christians existed were the low level admins that administrated those areas, but a lot of the high admins would still call them Jews. Even when Romans use the word "Christians" they don't actually mean Christians because the term corrupted for a bit in Latin to mean "Jews under Christian rule outside of Jerusalem" because of their apathy to the Jewish people and Culture.
+--- 21936961
+>>21936957
+>Jews under Christian rule outside of Jerusalem
+I meant, Jews under Roman rule outside of Jerusalem.
+--- 21937004
+>>21935906
+No, I’m rejecting stoicism. I think stoicism is a negation of striving but striving might get you to the same place they stoicism does, and come twice as natural to you.
+--- 21937041
+>>21936957
+Just putting out there my notion of what was thought about christiabs either comes from penguin's letters from a stoic or gregory hays' meditations in the introduction.
+--- 21937686
+>>21937004
+stoicism is striving cope however.
+From the perspective of your example, it's simply an array of tools used as a way to accept the goals you have for yourself. 
+Curious as to how you came to your current mindset, mind sharing?
+--- 21937701
+>>21934065 (OP)
+He identifies things that are true. It is clear that he was attempting to manage a position he did not truly desire or feel component enough to excel at. It is also important to keep in mind he likely did not intend for this to be read by anyone else. 
+As a man in this position, he was doing the best he could and the meditations show that. He was objectively wrong on his concept of evil, but his concept of self control is objectively true. He faced the brunt of Roman chaos and managed it as he could. 
+
+The Meditations are repetitive, and to some degree simplistic, but show a man earnestly attempting to control what he sees as beyond himself. By this analysis the truth of the Meditations themselves is somewhat irrelevant.
+--- 21938059
+>>21937701
+>He was objectively wrong on his concept of evil,
+???

lit/21934094.txt

@@ -74,3 +74,133 @@ It's not an argument to convince you. You never read it.
 >>21934191
 >DUDE WE CAN'T TRUST THE CANONIZATION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT BRO
 where does this meme come from? there was no conspiracy, the canon we have today is nearly identical to the books taught by the early church fathers.
+--- 21934471
+>>21934094 (OP)
+I read a children's version when I was 10 that summarised everything. Other than that, no.
+--- 21934504
+>>21934094 (OP)
+yes, and that's why i'm no longer christian.
+--- 21934519
+>>21934094 (OP)
+I've read some parts of the Torah.
+It makes a lot of sense if you interpret it as genocidal propaganda.
+--- 21934689
+>>21934458
+Well that didn't do anything to 
+make me trust the Bible more.
+
+You just insulted me for asking.
+
+Which shows a weakness in both your understanding of our religion and a certain frailty of faith that you'd insult a fellow believer for asking a simple question. Definitely not a look that'll attract more followers.
+But you probably don't care as you don't really believe in it yourself.
+
+In short, it would've been better if you'd just not said anything. Lol.
+
+Here's what we know:
+The New Testament didn't exist 
+until 380+ years after Christ died.
+
+380+ years.
+That's just a fact.
+That's a lotta years.
+A whole lot of time.
+For a whole lot of changes to occur.
+More facts:
+There was no 'canon' before the Council of Rome, when the New Testament *first* *began* to be formulated and there were certainly no books as everything was written on scrolls.
+There was no church right after Jesus was crucified.
+
+It was a bunch of wanderers writing letters to each other and passing on those letters.
+That's it.
+My question is why some letters were deemed The Word of God and others 'heretical' for 'pretending.'
+
+What was the criteria and who made the choice?
+
+That doesn't interest you at all?
+
+It does me.
+
+Torah = Old Testament which had been the same for centuries.
+Not interested in that.
+Not interested, in the least, in the history and laws of the people who killed Jesus because He threatened their power structure and "Monopoly on God"!
+Some things never change!
+
+But some group of people who 
+no one seems to be able to ID...
+decided that, for instance, the
+Gospel of Marcion, 
+the Gospel of Thomas, 
+the Gospel of Judas, 
+the Gospel of Mary, 
+the Gospel of Philip, 
+and the Gospel of Truth...weren't the Word of God but these others were.
+
+The Gnostic Gospels?
+Those are out. 
+Those early Christians are now 'heretics'. ...because Some People Who Never Recorded Their Own Names decided so.
+Your response here doesn't 
+exactly make me feel more 
+secure in trusting the Bible 
+as the one and only Word of God though.
+
+I trust Jesus.
+I trust that He was a real person who knew what He was walking into (he experienced hematidrosis, sweating blood due to extreme stress, so he wasn't crazy) and rose from the dead (why else would His followers continue preaching after His death and walk themselves into certain doom? Some of them at least.) 
+
+But knowing what He said and what He stood for is made difficult if it's all filtered through and based upon ...some nameless, faceless council of Romans? 
+
+Why did this secret council exclude the Gospel of Mani, Apelles & Bardesanes ?
+
+The Gospel of Basilides?
+The Gospel of Thomas?
+The Gospel of Peter and of Nicodemus?
+E
+Obviously there was a much, much larger "church" and these nameless, faceless members of the Council of Rome decided to trim some fat and only include select accounts.
+
+Really makes me wonder why 
+& your insulting answer didn't bring me closer to the truth
+--- 21934694
+>>21934351
+We could power every home on Earth if we find out a way to convert Christcuck cope into energy.
+--- 21934720
+>>21934351
+Yes it is.
+Half the old testament is about how the haters were wrong and the Jews eventually owned them. There is even a monologue from god about why you should not question him.
+--- 21934723
+>>21934094 (OP)
+Yes, on audio
+--- 21934839
+>>21934094 (OP)
+I haven't finished the apocrypha entirely but the rest I have. I do remember that so many books are positively insane like most anons here and it could easily shake your faith. I have an unshakeable, willing to die for, and go to Hell for belief in the Gospel as God's legitimate expression of Himself and largely this stems from God. That being said, Numbers, Judges, Samuel, Kings, and the historical books without the prophets and without the wisdom literature will and should make you question your faith. I would be quite firm in saying that only Pontius Pilate and Jesus Christ are the only two believable characters in the whole of Scripture otherwise they are one dimensional shadow puppets to express deep pyschological and spiritual realities.
+--- 21934867
+>>21934689
+>The New Testament didn't exist
+Nor did an official Old Testament exist
+
+>Gospel of Marcion, Truth etc
+Later creations, Marcion and whoever wrote Thomas just made stuff up
+
+>Not interested, in the least, in the history and laws of the people who killed Jesus because He threatened their power structure and "Monopoly on God"!
+Jesus commands his followers to follow the Torah. His whole point was that they didn't properly follow it
+--- 21934990
+>>21934094 (OP)
+Yes. Though I really glossed through Numbers. Haggai was my favourite book and I think Gideon was my favourite story.
+--- 21935178
+>>21934191
+I've always taken the Old Testament as being crucial to understand the buildup to the birth of the Messiah, Jesus. It catalogues the Jewish people's history, their covenants with God and their failures to comply with God's covenants. It also sets the scene for their ultimate betrayal of God by the rejection of the Messiah, who was born amongst them. Everything in the Bible should be read in the context of the Gospel.
+--- 21935584
+i went to catholic school so i've read parts of it but not the whole thing, and i have no interest in doing so.
+--- 21935590
+>>21934351
+>if you read it it always works
+uh huh
+--- 21935593
+Why would I?
+--- 21935731
+>>21934094 (OP)
+Would rather not
+--- 21936712
+>>21934689
+>surprised that a chrisitian lashes out when asked a simple and reasonable question
+You're new to religion, huh?
+--- 21936744
+>>21934094 (OP)
+I listened to the four gospels and Acts in the New Testament. Genesis to Ruth in the Old Testament. I still have a ways to go.

lit/21934107.txt

@@ -24,3 +24,422 @@ Political theory is a meme.
 --- 21934185
 >>21934107 (OP)
 They’re relevant but their conclusions are wrong, or rather, shortsighted
+--- 21934613
+>>21934107 (OP)
+imagine being so bad at music criticism that you get filtered by the most novel and influential music of your era because you have a latent fear of emasculation
+--- 21934622
+>>21934172
+you might wanna read those philosophers and have your mind blown about how ideology is proliferated through pop culture
+--- 21934632
+>>21934613
+>most novel and influential music
+Retarded criteria for any judgement, especially music.
+He's completely right, jazz is soulless, pseudo subversive, mass produced garbage at the lowest level of musical development for the emotionally and intellectually neutered masses.
+You are obviously an uneducated brainlet, go listen to shallow pop about being a whore.
+--- 21934635
+>>21934613
+Behold, the virile masculin man at its peak
+--- 21934638
+>>21934613
+his take on Wagner was idiotic too
+--- 21934640
+>>21934107 (OP)
+>In what way do their ideas survive in the normie's mind today?
+> Are they still relevant?
+--- 21934644
+Did they offer any program or guide to decoupling yourself from commercialised popular culture and only listening to good composers and reading good books?
+--- 21934647
+https://lordwallaceswan.substack.com/p/joel-and-the-frankfurt-school-by
+>One of these weapons was the 1000-page treatise on The Authoritarian Personality. Wielding Freudianism as a bludgeon, Horkheimer first states that no reasonable person would ever believe in communism after the horrors witnessed on the other side of the Berlin Wall, and therefore the true enemy is the lurking spirit of Fascism, just waiting to find willing vessels through which it will reanimate itself. From this, one could take positions aligned categorically against fascism, such as religiosity, anti-statist sentiment, and strong belief in the right to bear arms to be indicative of some hypothetical (now debunked) Freudian complex that will inevitably manifest itself in Fascism. More interestingly, sentiments like happiness in marriage, spousal affection, or masculinity were proposed as defects inevitably leading to fascism. Fascism, as is implied through the text, is the modern allegory for Satan's rule on earth, and any sense of normality, traditional values, or positive predisposition towards capitalism in one's life is pathologized as a mental defect of the psychologically broken. The therapeutic state necessitates that such people be fixed; therefore, all traditional right-wing and libertarian values must be destroyed lest it morph into authoritarianism. Horkheimer created the infrastructure for the praxis of Gramsci’s theory. The Cultural Marxism in the erosion of unifying bonds and sentiments set the course for the reducing the German people- and the West at large- to a formless mass whose only identity is that they are an economic unit.
+Is this an accurate take?
+--- 21934656
+>>21934613
+Can someone deepfake this quote with Alex Jones's voice?
+--- 21934657
+>>21934613
+He was a philistine, just listen to his compositions.
+--- 21934675
+>>21934107 (OP)
+Horkheimer's Eclipse of Reason refutes most of what happens on this board on a daily basis, it's extremely pertinent. It truly exposes trads as just another mode of relativistic pragmatism, and diagnoses the glorification of schizo shit. On the other hand, idk if many have similar enough of a cultural background as Adorno to truly gain insight from his acerbic commentaries on Western Classical Music. Read the Horkheimer book.
+--- 21934681
+>>21934675
+>another retard confuses an attempted description with a refutation
+--- 21934685
+>>21934107 (OP)
+Oy vey!
+--- 21934688
+>>21934681
+It refutes it in the sense that it exposes that these people are not what they think they are. It's apretty clear exposition of the emptiness at the heart of these cultish movements that blossom amidst the pig-shit of pragmatism and idolization of usefulness.
+--- 21934701
+>>21934688
+I strongly doubt that. Especially considering that none of them are unitary to begin with. It'd be like refuting religion in general by showing how Christianity has contradictions contained within it. Plus, all it takes is constructing a fabricated image of "what they think they are", when that is really an unknown to begin with, and then taking a mishmash of individualistic examples, which ultimately aren't particularly important to the overall idea, to show that these individuals do not suit the idea, and then incorrectly inverting the situation to show that the idea is empty because some, not all, individuals are inauthentic. Besides, arguably everything is empty at the heart of it. What criterion is he using to judge emptiness that wouldn't apply to absolutely every movement and every person? That would be subjective, in other words, "this I find personally meaningful" (full), "this I find personally empty." Again, all it comes down to is a description and subjective exposition rather than a refutation.
+--- 21934729
+>>21934701
+>Besides, arguably everything is empty at the heart of it. 
+
+See, the real trads would've never used this line of argument. You are trying to defend the validity of groups that pretend to be interested in objective truths by ultimately making appeal to extreme subjectivity and relativism, characteristics of the modern pragmatist mindset rather than Aquinas or Plato. This is obviously absurd, since to be "a real" trad this constant relating of everything to subjective purposes, and dogmatisms arising therefrom, would not be permissible. You are ironically at the heart the problem that Horkheimer is describing in your post, or what he calls the antinomy between subjective and objective reason.
+--- 21934734
+>>21934647
+Wildly off base. Adorno doesn’t say these characteristics make someone a fascist, he says they correlate with fascism. The book is basically a long interpretation of survey data. According to Adorno, it’s likely that many people who are not fascist will share these traits. Anything about religion is just the reviewer projecting their own religion onto a secular text. Adorno is also notoriously bad at calling his readers to action — the most he ever says is to be skeptical of things that seem nice, because they can soften you up to ideology.
+--- 21934763
+>>21934729
+>the real trads
+Not quoted but I don't see anyone but you mentioning the idea of "trads".
+--- 21934767
+>>21934729
+I'm not defending anyone, I'm attacking the person who tries to refute things in this weird, clandestine, underhanded fashion. As far as I'm concerned, it seems to be all about appearances (which is exactly what it is attempting to criticize, ironically) rather than substance.
+--- 21934782
+>>21934763
+Thats what the discussion was and what he was responding to.
+
+>>21934767
+I'm the same person. You definitely are defending groups that would claim objective truth by appealing to relativism and subjectivity. It's like a perfect example of the core issue that Horkheimer talks about in his book.
+--- 21934787
+>>21934632
+>soulless, pseudo-subversive
+t. Has never listened to jazz in his life.
+--- 21934799
+>>21934107 (OP)
+The critique og modernity by Adorno and Benjamin remains influential, this is readily apparent in the ubiquity of terminology such as "culture industry". Habermas is likely the most influential og them all; he's become something of a guiding star for European policymakers and officials on the subject of statecraft, democracy and ethics following German unification and the fall of the Soviet Union.
+
+Other than that, the only other Frankfurter (haha) with any influence in the modern day is Henrykt Grossmann, whom despite his relative obscurity in the 20th century has enjoyed renewed interest as part of crisis theory; following the volatile behavior of the global economy in the past few years.
+--- 21934801
+>>21934107 (OP)
+Cultural Marxism is literally poisoning 80% of western world as we speak.
+LTGTQ right, Tolerance, Communism, Critical Race Theory etc etc everything.
+--- 21934813
+If retards here read they would agree maybe 70% with everything said by the frankfurt school. They share the same critique of modernity with poltards here
+--- 21934816
+>>21934644
+I watched a lecture years ago where the guy said the Frankfurt school gives a diagnosis, rarely a prognosis, but never a cure.
+From what I've read by Walter Benjamin he explains how the economical, technological and social progress changed everything from the way people live to art and architecture (the whole aura and flaneur thing).
+--- 21934831
+>>21934613
+Absolutely based. Jazz was created by feminine negros. Look at all the nigger sympathisers seething at chad Adorno.
+--- 21934845
+>>21934813
+>they would agree maybe 70% with everything said by the frankfurt school
+Like what?
+--- 21934848
+>>21934813
+Where did this ridiculous meme come from that Frankfurt School was "based" and chud-adjacent? I see this talking point in any thread and nobody ever explains further
+--- 21934849
+>>21934848
+>in any
+every*
+--- 21934883
+>>21934107 (OP)
+Basically, from what I understand, it was all self-fullfilling prophecies
+>accuse them of what you're doing
+Negative dialectics being a black hole: the unrelenting criticism, this 
+>everything being problematic
+of nowadays, everything being (de)con(structed), the con at the center of the destruction.
+--- 21934885
+>>21934107 (OP)
+--- 21934891
+>>21934613
+lol what is this freudian quackery
+--- 21934899
+>>21934883
+>(de)con(structed), the con at the center of the destruction.
+How much kabbalah do I have to study to gain the ability to decode occultic messages such as this?
+--- 21934902
+>>21934885
+>let me just put a star on them just like the nazis did, this surely will help spreading something that's supposedly true
+--- 21934909
+>>21934899
+Just having fun with a pun, merely cohencidence.
+--- 21934918
+>>21934107 (OP)
+Every kind of study that has the prefix "critical" is in some way derived from these dorks.
+Not in the way they intended, but philosophical reception rarely allows the luxury of letting someone be understood on their own terms.
+--- 21934926
+>>21934613
+>>21934635
+>ON APRIL 22, 1969, SHORTLY AFTER BEGINNING a lecture in his course on dialectical thought before an audience of nearly one thousand students at the University of Frankfurt, the eminent Frankfurt School sociologist and Marxist cultural critic Theodor W. Adorno found himself in an unusual situation. A student in one of the back rows interrupted him, demanding that he engage in "self-criticism." Another student silently walked up to the blackboard and wrote the following words: "He who only allows dear Adorno to rule will uphold capitalism his entire life." After Adorno told the class that they would have five minutes to decide if his lecture should continue, three female students dressed in leather jackets rushed the podium. They showered him with roses and tulips, exposed their breasts, and tried repeatedly to kiss him. Incensed and humiliated, Adorno stormed out of the lecture hall. 
+>be Adorno
+>be defeated spiritually by nubile tits
+--- 21934935
+>>21934909
+Pattern recognition at its finest
+--- 21934943
+The Frankfurts most significant contribution to modern philosophy is probably the concept of critical theory, which is a broad term for a framework commonly used today to analyze various concepts and social issues. They're not related to a nefarious "cultural marxism" plot centered around subverting the west. This is a Nazi conspiracy theory that was used to attack the Bolsheviks under the term "cultural bolshevism" and later adapted to smear any progressive or leftist movement by American right wingers. Critical theory is a complex and diverse field that aims to understand and transform society through dialectical and interdisciplinary methods. It is not a dogmatic or monolithic doctrine that can be easily dismissed or caricatured by its opponents.
+--- 21934958
+The Frankfurt School’s main goal was to emancipate humanity from the forces of oppression and create a more just, equal society through the process of inquiry, dialectic, and reflection. They did not seek to destroy Western civilization, but rather to improve it by exposing its flaws and potentials. 
+
+The right wing attacks on the Frankfurt School can be boiled down to fear and hatred of anything that challenges their narrow worldview. The right has consistently shown they are unable to comprehend or appreciate the contributions of the Frankfurt School and since they have little argument to offer or knowledge of the texts will resort to lies and slander to discredit them.
+--- 21934993
+>>21934943
+>They're not related to a nefarious "cultural marxism" plot centered around subverting the west.
+> Critical theory is a complex and diverse field that aims to understand and transform society through dialectical and interdisciplinary methods
+>it is not
+>but it is
+--- 21934997
+>>21934107 (OP)
+Is argue it totally dominates the normie-sphere, though I’ve seen WLC say it’s irrelevant in popular thought. 
+
+But basically the Frankfurt school has distilled down to 
+1. a somewhat religious attraction to a watered down Marxism 
+
+2. The general idea that everyone’s point of view is correct and not worth debating or opposing it’s Christianity or fascism (interestingly both ideas that are despised by Jews) lgbt, Islam, confuscianism, Chinese treatment of workers etc etc etc. it’s your truth! Nobody can take it away.
+
+3. There is no sin, just offense against society. So If you cut your dick off or smoke weed or get fat it’s not a sin. If you denounce someone else’s right to do what they see fit it’s a sin or if you steal it’s a sin
+--- 21935001
+>>21934958
+>t. ChatGPT
+--- 21935004
+>>21934993
+Transform society doesn't necessarily mean "subversion" or transforming in a negative manner, it could be seen as a way to improve, adapt, evolve, and overcome previous shortcomings
+--- 21935018
+>>21934801
+>80%
+too optimistic, name the 20%
+>hardmode: no east of poland, inclusive
+--- 21935019
+>>21934613
+>I hate jazz I am da alpha male
+Lmao
+--- 21935022
+>>21934958
+If you're boiling things down to a right-wing/left-wing dichotomy, you've already lost my attention. People need to learn to tackle subjects without turning it into flanderizing tribal bullshit
+--- 21935030
+>>21935022
+The left right divide is the single most potent political and civilisational force in the west for 300 years, if you don't understand that you understand nothing about politics.
+--- 21935037
+>>21935022
+--- 21935044
+>>21935019
+Physiognomy never fails
+--- 21935049
+>>21934926
+The nukes should have been dropped on Germany.
+--- 21935059
+>>21934172
+Simplified versions of philosopher thoughts, many times uncredited, influence the masses
+--- 21935078
+>>21935030
+It really isn't though? Or if it's true, it's true in such a meaningless way that it's laughable you hyperfocus on it. The tribal divide between an undereducated minimum wage worker on the Bible Belt and a college educated citygoer is not even remotely the most critical part of politics in the modern era. The pandering done on the political aisles to both of those demographics is 99% theater, so it's a waste of time and just misleading to interpret modern politics in light of it. Seriously, that's a twatter tier take. If we misunderstood each other in terms of our position, I apologize for oversimplifying, but all I was trying to say initially was that categorizing genuine, complex thought into a right/left dichotomy is to dirty and distort the complex thought into something simpler and stupider. It's an actual psy-op to kill actual critical thinking and discussion based on real thought by turning it into an ooga booga caveman divide. And no, screeching about right-wingers is not a sign of your erudite understanding of potent political machinations in the modern world, it's you falling for the psy-op like the sophomore you seem to be.
+--- 21935093
+Have the Frankfurt Schoolers ever defined "fascism"? What exactly does the term mean to them if they even saw Beatles songs as fascist?
+--- 21935112
+>>21934172
+You are not wrong, but also not entirely right.
+--- 21935127
+>>21934848
+Not even Gottfried would go that far and he is their biggest fan on the right.
+--- 21935166
+>>21935127
+He wrote a pretty interesting article recently
+
+https://chroniclesmagazine.org/recent-features/marx-was-not-woke/
+--- 21935200
+>>21935037
+fixed
+--- 21935215
+>>21935166
+Marx wasn't woke, but wokism arose from Marxism
+--- 21935278
+>>21935200
+Excellent.
+--- 21935412
+>>21935215
+1) Marx literally argued against of co-temporal for him woketurds
+2)modern wokies made by CIA and is antimarxist
+--- 21935424
+>>21934107 (OP)
+>Are they still relevant?
+no
+--- 21935436
+>>21934613
+I'm utterly convinced that when leftists say that "fascists" have insecurities about masculinity or "daddy issues" to latent homosexuality as was a fun propaganda tool of the bolsheviks they are 100% projecting and some just come to terms with themselves by literally castrating themselves/transitioning.
+--- 21935446
+>>21934644
+I love how people think these guys are the heirs of Nietzsche when they go on parading the corpse of god and pretend objective values still exist on mediums such as music. They are absurd
+--- 21935489
+>>21934845
+*crickets*
+I'll try to guess though. "Consumerism" as explained through magical critical theorist drivel, because they can't just say what's really on their minds: they don't like it. 
+Instead they'll go on to say that serialized consumer exchanges in an economy causes commodities and bodies to become interchangeable and indistinguishable or something. Because they apperantly can't tell the difference between a car and a person. As if modernity is the only time in history where humans have been sorted into numbers. It's fucking stupid freudian nonsense with the sole purpose of being entertaining to students who desperately like to *feel* like they are being oppressed, to be a part of some romantic struggle. The Frankfurt school doesn't even have any coherent foundation, like people said, all they ever did was critique trends.
+--- 21935499
+>>21935436
+You wouldn't be entirely wrong.
+--- 21935502
+>>21935004
+Yes, I'm sure that you are very self-aware. I'm sure your values are the objective values that exist in the objective world.
+It's funny, but critical theorists never actually criticize their own ideology, and if they do, it's just on the grounds that it's not progressive enough, that some group like TERFs are betraying the movement by not falling in line or that some rando criticized someone else without following accepted guidelines.
+--- 21935507
+>>21935030
+Maybe, but going by the divide at the origin point, there is no "right" since all the actual reactionaries are dead.
+--- 21935526
+>>21935412
+>modern wokies made by CIA and is antimarxist
+I love this pathetic attempt of internet teen marxists, who still think we live in the 19th century, unlike their Eurocommunist brethren, to shift culpability of the rise of new social movements, anti-discrimination movements, LGBTQ rights etc. on the Chicago boys and the CIA.
+--- 21935540
+>>21935049
+that's a fun way of saying "Louis XVI should've executed all the revolutionaries."
+--- 21935551
+>>21935507
+Revolutionnary, progressive, conservative, reactionnary are all situational and relative to the actual mover of history, the question of equality, or blank-slatism.
+--- 21935611
+>>21935412
+Every woke element comes from a different Cold War Marxist strategy
+>POC identity politics comes from Thirdworldism
+>Race denialism from Lewontin
+>LGBT bullshit from Mieli and Reich
+>feminism from underfucked Jewish spinsters
+--- 21935659
+>>21935526
+https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP86S00588R000300380001-5.pdf
+--- 21935780
+>>21935526
+How do people not see that wokeism is the greatest trick capitalism has ever pulled? It atomizes society, destroys the family and replaces it with the service economy, where everything that was freely done by relatives/friends/nice neighbors turns into a paid service that goes to push up the GDP. The individual as fully "liberated", emancipated consumer is Capitalism's ultimate dream. You can't really be pro free markets and contra wokeism; at least don't complain that millions choose the latter in perfectly free transactions and activities.
+--- 21935815
+>>21935526
+Because it is , dumbfuck.
+
+>The State Department, the CIA, and the United States Information Agency, as well as an assortment of foundations from Rockefeller’s to Fulbright’s, all dedicated themselves to painting a positive picture of America abroad. This was big money; by the late 1950’s the USIA alone spent over $2 billion of public money a year on newsreels, radio broadcasts, journalism, and international appearances and exhibitions.
+
+>The problem was that the image of America that these agencies projected to the world wasn’t the image many Americans had of their country. Information agencies were busy trying to make us look like an open and free society, as sophisticated and cosmopolitan as any European one.
+
+>Congress...passed a compromise called the Smith-Mundt Act in 1948. The law made it illegal for the USIA to release any of its propaganda within the United States. Ostensibly, this was to protect Americans from the potentially manipulative propaganda it was spreading abroad. Information is a form of PSYOPS (psychological operations), after all, and we are not going to use such weapons on our own people.
+
+>So in 2012, Smith-Mundt was repealed. Concerned netizens saw a conspiracy. Did this mean the government would now be free to use its psychological warfare on U.S. citizens? Perhaps. But the real intent was to relieve the government’s communications agencies from trying to hide their messaging from Americans in an age when hiding such programming is impossible.
+https://medium.com/team-human/hiding-america-from-americans-a4ff285cf58b
+--- 21935914
+>>21935659
+Interesting read, thanks.
+--- 21935924
+>>21935780
+Capitalism is Marxist
+--- 21935926
+>>21935914
+Though I should add it precisely shows how the woke is a a post-marxist movement grown out of rejection of the soviet union by the new left and which substituted minorities for the new proletariat.
+CIA analysts writing notes about that doesn't mean it's a CIA plot.
+All in all it's just modernized marxism >>21935611
+--- 21936370
+>>21935436
+They have no understanding of masculinity or of inner strength because it is utterly foreign to their own being. This is why they frame their enemies as "insecure", the gayest most effeminate projection possible. Although to be fair anime pfp rw manchildren definitely are insecure but those are the rw equivalent of trannies.
+--- 21936650
+>>21935780
+The thing about the early USSR is that -- whatever you think of the theory and reality of it (which can be two different things) -- it wasn't just about a self-proclaimed belief in liberating "the working class" in a narrow sense like a 19th century radical labor movement socialism (although it was that), but also liberating the oppressed peoples of the world from imperialism and colonialism, and they believed it was the responsibility of workers in more advanced countries, if they considered themselves comrades, to ally with these people if they wanted to be part of this, to make sacrifices to help that happen. This is one reason why this ideology spread in Asia, some parts of Latin America, the Middle East, Africa. It's not just that workers are oppressed by capitalists, but that whole nations (which would include African-Americans) are oppressed which is a means by which capitalists exercise their control over the world. That's what they believed. Racism is the enemy and an assault on all working people. "Workers and oppressed peoples of the world unite" was the Comintern motto. So it was highly "woke," but not liberal here, as if politics as such is about personal validation or egoistic competition. It was about duty and sacrifice and a mission.
+
+Now, talking about new social movements in the 60s or a divergence between the left and the "working class," I think something got split in Western countries, particularly the United States. I think it's true that the CIA did encourage a "compatible left" for strategic reasons, but this is exaggerated by some on the far left, that was more specifically a social-democratic left (Dissent magazine types) hostile to the USSR, but that wasn't the Black Panther Party. My belief is that the traditional organizing base for the left, organized labor, had basically sold-out and been coopted, the communists had been purged from the unions in the 50s, and the unions had been more or less depoliticized and focused on narrow trade union ideas (better wages, benefits, which is fine, but not going on strike to halt the movement of war supplies or something). But it's obvious why the U.S. wanted that to happen, they didn't want communist-controlled unions sabotaging war production in the event of a war with the USSR. Yet it seemed like new social movements had radical potential, but the radicals who participated in them failed to achieve the revolution they wanted, yet these movements also had an effect on society and were absorbed / recuperated in the following decades and thus lost the revolutionary potential (if they had any) which they were perceived to have at the time. Meanwhile, organized labor, having already disarmed itself (speaking metaphorically here), was effectively dismantled starting in the 1980s.
+
+Thing is, too, capitalism had reformed itself in the aftermath of the Depression and WWII. It's kinda like the Borg, it's capable of assimilating whatever it needs into itself for an expansion.
+--- 21936688
+>>21935780
+Also, forgive the sci-fi references, but think of capitalism itself as like an intelligent machine (as an analogy), instead of the human (or in this case, WASP guys who post on /lit/) being in charge of the means to decide what and what not to produce. The sole purpose of capitalism is to duplicate more capital for eternity so anything that can bring efficiency and generate more capital is capitalism's target, including drugs, guns, sex, identity, religion, and junk food. Capitalism is not necessarily making everything better (although it can make some things better), because it only needs a minority (1%) to be intelligent enough to run it... or make them think they're running it while they are actually being run by the machine.
+
+Capitalism itself is a bit like Event Horizon's ship that returns from a black hole. It's the ship instead of the captain or crewmen that are running it. The ship "alienated" the men on board to shape them into whatever way it wants. Whether you’re a "Proud Boy" who's for the ship or a "woke" person who is against it, it doesn't matter, because your fate is alienated and then "deconstructed". BTW the concept of alienation is one of the key points in Marxism.
+
+Following this logic further, assuming that we believe in in the concept of Eurocentrism and white / male supremacism and put them in the context of capitalism, we treat Blacks, Asians, Browns, women and etc. only as instruments or resource inputs into the machine to produce more output. What does this mean exactly? It actually means that capitalism, despite WASPs who drink Bud Light being its biggest fan, is actually deconstructing "WASP" itself because because their flesh and even soul can no longer feed the machine's stomach. The "good old days" are gone and will never return. Family is being deconstructed and gender is being deconstructed and more diversities and inclusions and multiculturalism and etc. because they can create more profits for capitalism than WASPs do.
+
+I'm still referring to capitalism as a rather abstract concept, not the material part in the base, and not to dive too deep into it, but this doesn't mean that the "woke" are winning the battle because they, in their own central narrative, are also the losers like WASPs because, at the end of the day, everybody has been played. But basically the thesis-antithesis-synthesis, or the unity of opposites in dialectical materialism (or Yin/Yang), or the singularity discovered in the black hole each point to the contradiction in the universality, which is "what makes you rise is going eventually to make you fall." The most capitalist country is going to be destroyed the most by capitalism itself from within and from outside, completely erasing everything one can cherish.
+
+https://youtu.be/QvNn_vJy0BM [Embed]
+--- 21936760
+>>21934902
+>optics fagging in the CY + 8
+I'm afraid it is too late for you
+--- 21937079
+>>21934172
+Travel to France and, or Germany, you *nglo pig.
+--- 21937153
+>>21934943
+I am unintentionally majoring in this field currently (did not pay attention at the beginning of college, ended up severely behind on credits and this was all I could do for the sheet of paper) and my god is it awful. I have professors that spent their twenties getting a doctorate in this junk. Starting from the Frankfurt school, this area has just built on itself but there is no reason to care about it if you are not within its academic orbit. It is all a jumble of nonstatements and "takes" that are make up this code language that is extremely simple to understand once you decipher it. None of this 'criticism" is actually saying anything. I am actually working on a project about that castration concept and the more I think about it the more angry I get. You are correct in saying it is not one specific dogma, I do actually have respect for the field but man do I not care about learning it.
+--- 21937162
+>>21935489
+Student from last post again, this guy gets it. It's become even less coherent with the massive amount of academics contributing literature to this so called discussion
+--- 21937169
+>>21934734
+What if I told you best way to preserve a worldview is converting it into a religion for legal reasons
+--- 21937172
+>>21934902
+I dunno it’s kind of cute actually
+--- 21937180
+man, i still don't know what the fuck any of these people believed.
+--- 21937186
+>>21937169
+Dont tell the plebs.
+--- 21937194
+>>21937180
+everything invented during and after the enlightenment is a method of control and a stepping stone to fascism
+--- 21937221
+>>21934613
+He's obviously correct. When's the last time a jazz appreciator orchestrated a genocide? Because we can find in Beethoven a dozen examples of more.
+
+Americans can't appreciate this because they fetishizes a fucking slave race but it's the truth and I'm tired of pretending it isn't.
+--- 21937297
+>>21937194
+>RETVRN TO TRADITION
+>VGH NOT LIKE THAT
+--- 21937317
+>>21937194
+good thing nothing before the enlightenment was a method of control at least.
+--- 21937393
+>>21937180 
+They were thinkers that employed philosophy, sociology, psychology, and other disciplines to investigate and critique modern various systems such as liberal capitalism, fascism, marxist leninism, etc. and their various consequences on human society and culture. Essentially what critical theory was focused on was investigating the dialectics of society, the contradictions and conflicts, and opportunities to achieve social transformation and human emancipation, with a particular focus on causes of violence and human suffering due to their status as Jewish Marxist intellectuals and persecution at the hands of Nazi Germany. If you are familiar with Hegel and Marx the concept of dialectics would make more sense, it's essentially the Hegelian dialectical method applied to analyze the modern institutions.
+--- 21937438
+>>21937393
+so hegelian commie gobbledygook
+--- 21937443
+>>21937438
+Sheesh. Typical goyishe answer.
+--- 21937450
+>>21934107 (OP)
+Basically everything say about the Enlightenment and Liberalism being evil is correct and everything they say about fascism is mind-blowingly stupid. Even to leftists their doomerism is irrelevant.
+--- 21937469
+>>21937180
+Marxism had flaws
+conquer through culture
+--- 21937491
+>>21937443
+Fuck you
+--- 21937496
+>>21937491
+No. Go ask your mother. That shiksa whore will tell you that circumcised dicks feel better.
+--- 21937526
+>>21937180
+here, have a pic of random related stuff I found
+not saying I agree, just posting anons explaining
+--- 21937535
+>>21934997
+>if you steal it’s a sin
+Racist.
+--- 21937541
+>>21934172
+Vaush is also not representative of the intellectual left by any means
+--- 21937544
+>>21934638
+>The contradiction between mockery of the victim and self denigration is also a definition of Wagner’s anti-Semitism. The gold
+grabbing, invisible, anonymous, exploitative Alberich, the shoulder-shrugging, loquacious Mime, overflowing with self-praise and
+spite, the impotent intellectual critic Hanslick-Beckmesser— all the rejects of Wagners works are caricatures of Jews. 
+>Oy vey, the gold-stealing dwarf, subversive traitor, and the idiotic intellectual are really jewish!
+Holy kek
+--- 21937547
+>>21935093
+>Have the Frankfurt Schoolers ever defined "fascism"?
+This is a good question. It's all spaghetti on the wall until terms get defined.
+>they even saw Beatles songs as fascist?
+Songs from before or after influence from Charles Manson?
+--- 21937567
+>>21935924
+Not him, but I look at it differently. Capitalism and Marxism are simply different critiques that share the same nexus of materialism. They both draw the same conclusion - concentrate capital in the hands of an oligarchy. The rest is window dressing.
+--- 21937628
+>>21937393
+So the actual answer is everything and nothing.
+--- 21937747
+>>21934926
+lol
+lmao even
+--- 21937756
+>>21934958
+>to emancipate humanity from the forces of oppression and create a more just, equal society through the process of inquiry, dialectic, and reflection.
+So nonsense that is used to justify importation of third worlder work force.
+--- 21937758
+>>21935030
+Is it? I'm mostly a liberal racist. I don't fit with left or right.
+--- 21937766
+>>21937393
+>it's essentially the Hegelian dialectical method
+Into the trash it goes.

lit/21934214.txt

@@ -27,3 +27,20 @@ But there English is extremely good.
 --- 21934304
 If I received that letter I would show it to all of my friends and we would laugh our asses off
 Seriously dude 'at worst my therapist makes a couple hundred bucks off me' lmao who tf are you
+--- 21935825
+bump
+--- 21935948
+>>21934214 (OP)
+Too many repetitions. Revise. Rewrite. Reformulate.
+--- 21935958
+>>21934225
+/adv/ is by far the worst board for advice on this site. You'd sooner get something useful on /b/.
+--- 21937048
+>>21935958
+>>21935948
+>>21934304
+I gave it to her. 
+She went form literally screaming at me. 
+To us being cool again. 
+
+So yea. Good for me I guess.

lit/21934409.txt

@@ -1,3 +1,51 @@
 -----
 --- 21934409
 For someone coming from an evolian background, how good is this book?
+--- 21934517
+I'm trans btw, if that matters.
+--- 21934784
+>>21934409 (OP)
+>evolian background
+I have no idea what that entails other than you not having sex.
+The Ancient City is a classic and should be read by any sophisticated mind interested in politics and classical societies.
+--- 21935668
+It's a shitty book.
+--- 21935680
+>>21934409 (OP)
+not great especially description of the religious practices and so on will seem like superstition if you are into initiatory spirituality
+--- 21935772
+>>21934409 (OP)
+This book is not about transcendence. It's about the religious foundations of the Greek polis and Rome. It's a cultural and political book. This book is also not about paganism. Rather, it's about the primitive religion of the hearth, the evolution (or rather, devolution) of said religion through the rise of the city, plebian religion over patrician religion. 
+
+That said, it's one of my favorite non-fiction books.
+--- 21935832
+>>21935772
+Christianity is true, retard
+--- 21936481
+>>21935772
+lmao how is city religion pleb and hut religion patrician?
+--- 21936490
+>>21935832
+>Christianity is truly retard
+Ftfy
+--- 21936564
+>>21934517
+> Evolian
+> Trans
+
+Kek
+--- 21936577
+>>21936490
+kek gottem
+--- 21936579
+>>21934409 (OP)
+>evolian background
+lol race is spiritual dude, you just have to have a germanic ancestry to have the nonracial race spirit
+--- 21936659
+>>21934409 (OP)
+Decent book.
+>>21936579
+This is what race as magic does to a person.
+--- 21936677
+>>21936579
+*the publisher has entered the thread*

lit/21934432.txt

@@ -4,3 +4,40 @@
 >still manages to be successful
 >beloved by women and fags
 Literally how
+--- 21934498
+>>21934432 (OP)
+I follow this question. I don't get it either. I remember in middle-school my friend (female) was proud that she have his book. We're about 15 to 16 at that time.
+I read the book when I was 24. I downloaded it from zlibrary, and I don't understand how someone that young of age have the palate to read the book. The books disgusts me until now. I stopped reading it halfway after getting headaches from how pretentious it is. Literally, he's the worst author in my book.
+--- 21934500
+>>21934498
+Con't:
+I forgot to say it was Norwegian Wood.
+
+I think people like him because his prose was clear and concise.
+--- 21935980
+Hard-boiled Wonderland and the End of the World is unironically a great and unique novel - seethe harder
+--- 21935993
+his magic realism is really good though
+--- 21935995
+>>21934432 (OP)
+>writes trite stories that meander and end pointlessly
+That's true for countless famous novels by canonized authors. Have you read something like Dostoevsky's Idiot?
+--- 21936033
+>>21934432 (OP)
+He’s not the best but still comfy to read if you’re wanting a break from difficult lit.
+--- 21936201
+>>21934432 (OP)
+Because its very comfy!?
+--- 21936340
+He seems to treat writing like a a commercial process or a workout routine, which I suspect makes for good stories. 
+
+It’s a shame because his biography can otherwise be an inspiration to late bloomers.
+--- 21936364
+>>21934500
+How tf is Norwegian Wood pretentious?
+--- 21936470
+>>21935980
+The setting for Haibane Renmei is so similar to that book they namedrop it on the back of the ntsc DVD case. Its not on my BD case. Ended up reading it because of that.
+--- 21936581
+>>21936364
+It's not. That guy is retarded.

lit/21934560.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,148 @@
+-----
+--- 21934560
+Hey I wanted to do this for a long time. Would be great if you would like to read the Cantos with me week by week, and we will see how far we come. If we make it to Canto XXX, that would be great.
+I have a pdf of the Cantos and the companion book by Carroll F. Terrell, if someone wants have those I can share them with you. 
+
+
+So starting the discussion on Canto I; why did Pound choose a latin translation of the Odyssey to base Canto I on? Why not the original greek? Also what purpose is the end of the Canto, where he cites Andreas Divus? To me it feels like it interrupts the flow of the poem a lot. 
+
+Are there any other good sources, biographies of Ezra Pound that go into depth about the Cantos?
+--- 21934565
+Here is Canto I
+--- 21934575
+Also which books should you read before the Cantos? I think Iliad, Odyssey, Dante, Personae or his other smaller work maybe. Any other books?
+--- 21934659
+>>21934575
+You don’t have to read any of Ezra’s other books, in my personal opinion. I’m not saying you shouldn’t, just that you don’t have to in order to read the Cantos.
+Homer and Dante of course, as you mentioned.
+The Waste Land by TS Eliot
+--- 21934859
+I'd be down to join the reading group. I've been meaning to read through the Cantos. What's the plan though? We read one Canto per week? Which day of the week? I work full time, so I need to organize things a bit.
+--- 21935369
+>>21934859
+this
+--- 21935373
+>>21934560 (OP)
+we need more reading group threads
+--- 21935400
+Not OP, but how about this:
+
+The Cantos discussions every Thursday. We will do two cantos a week for the next fifteen weeks, bringing us to the end of Canto XXX. Hopefully we can make it that far. (If we do, it might be worth skipping to the Pisan Cantos and doing those). 
+
+At this schedule, we're only reading an average of 10 pages a week. Fifteen weeks from now, we'll be at 150 pages. 150 pages = 30 Cantos. 
+
+No need for any prior or specialized knowledge. We'll just go for it. 
+
+Any takers? I'm happy to speed up or slow down the schedule depending on what people have to say.
+--- 21935605
+>>21935400
+OP here. Two Cantos per week is great! I will make a schedule. The writing is very dense so I think 10 pages per week is good.
+--- 21935608
+>>21934659
+Is the waste land relevant for the Cantos? In what way?
+--- 21935612
+>>21935373
+Yeah that's why I started one. The book is a bit intimidating but I think it will be fun if we read it together.
+--- 21935690
+>>21935605
+
+I think we're going to have to shift this schedule. I think Thursday, April 27th should be Canto I + II and then we go from there. Also, can we just call next week "Week I." That seems much easier than going by whatever week of the year it is.
+--- 21935897
+>>21935690
+Yeah great I will make a new schedule for next thread
+--- 21935966
+>>21935897
+
+Perfect thank you. Maybe we can make a thread or two in the coming days to advertise the reading group. 
+
+So far it's me, you...anyone else??
+--- 21936000
+>>21935966
+I just picked up a copy on a lark, I'll probably get more out of it reading with you guys than on my own, so I'm in
+--- 21936121
+>>21935966
+Haha 2 people, better than nobody! yeah I will make some threads about it coming days
+--- 21936144
+i'm interested in reading these i've never read pound before :-). so we're just starting? what was going on the first fifteen weeks?
+--- 21936206
+>>21936144
+
+We're reading two Cantos a week for the next fifteen weeks (putting us at the end of Canto XXX). Next Thursday we'll start by discussing Canto 1 + 2. So read those sometime before Thursday and you're good to go
+
+No need to have any prior knowledge. Just reading and discussing.
+--- 21936223
+>>21936206
+thank you friend i'm excited
+--- 21936245
+>>21936144
+Im also in. Keep us posted anon!
+--- 21936272
+>>21936223
+>>21936245
+>>21936121
+
+Awesome! Is OP good to carry this? I'm happy to fill in/support if need be.
+--- 21936371
+>>21934560 (OP)
+Excellent idea, anon.
+--- 21936430
+OP here with the new schedule
+--- 21936434
+Having the copy here before me I realize how big of a work this is going to be, how challenging. But together I think it will work out! I am looking forward to it!
+--- 21936435
+>>21936430
+
+Amazing!
+--- 21936447
+>>21936272
+Yeah great, I don't know how to set it up properly, but I guess I will be making the threads every thursday. I will also provide the companion rescource soon. So we have about 4 people now? Great!
+--- 21936553
+I was reading in Lustra, and the last poem seems to be an early version of the first 3 Cantos. Reading the opening in this way makes more sense. Not as out of the blue as it will later be. Also pic rel is Canto I, whilst it is Canto III in the earlier version
+--- 21936668
+>>21936430
+I've never taken part of these communal readings, so this might sound stupid but were discussing the first two cantos next thursday right? I should read them before then
+--- 21936734
+I'm also interested in this, just adding myself to the poster count
+--- 21936784
+Will definitely check in next week. 
+With regards to why he wanted to use a Latin translation as his basis, I'm not sure. Perhaps it was simply a desire to create a unique take on the passage in English. "Make it new" was a motto of his, no?
+--- 21936792
+>>21934560 (OP)
+I've always wanted to read this but never felt like I'm well-versed enough in poetry. I made a thread about it once and almost everyone told me to start with Shakespeare and spend more time with traditional non-free-verse poets.
+--- 21936878
+Sounds good, I'll try to keep up
+--- 21936917
+Please keep using the same image for the OP and include the canto of the week in the thread, just like this one so we can all read it
+--- 21937069
+>>21936917
+
+Yeah good call! 
+
+>>21936447
+
+I think the best thing is to start a thread early on Thursday morning. Like anon above wrote, keep the image the same and just change the title. For next week, for example, the title could be something like "/lit/ reads The Cantos: Week 1, Canto I + II"
+--- 21937076
+>>21936668
+
+Yeah, exactly. Next week we'll be discussing Canto I and II. So try to read Canto I + Canto II by then. Hopefully with everyone having read the poems the discussion will flow naturally. The discussion will probably start pretty surface level (with questions like 'so what did you guys think of the poems') and then get more complex (with questions and comments being about particular details)
+--- 21937545
+>>21935608
+I know it's referenced in Cantos VIII, I don't know how heavily it is elsewhere
+>These fragments you have shelved (shored).
+>"Slut!" "Bitch!" Truth and Calliope
+>Slanging each other sous les lauriers:
+--- 21937613
+>>21935966
+I'm >>21936792, I'll read along with you guys but I guarantee I'll be filtered the whole time. I already feel like I'm missing almost everything from the canto posted above. To be fair, I haven't read The Odyssey since I was in high school.
+--- 21937637
+>>21937613
+filtered is a made up word homie.
+I know nothing about poetry except for entry level stuff like Rimbaud and Baudelaire. I had a great time reading the Cantos. 
+
+Sometimes things just make sense anyways you know? Just because you cant explain like a professor why u like or enjoy a book does not mean that you are not allowed to enjoy it. Even if 70 percent of all you read is not intelligible the 30 percent you understand is probably going to be great, even greater because it will click and you will feel proud.
+
+Just read it mate, see what you think.
+--- 21937663
+>>21937637
+>filtered is a made up word homie.
+That's every word, but getting filtered is definitely real. Thanks for the encouragement thoughever hombre, I'll be reading along for sure. I love listening to Pound's own recitations of his poems in his beautiful cadence.

lit/21934835.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,103 @@
+-----
+--- 21934835
+Any books that focus on this?
+
+I can't think of one where drug use isn't either a cliched bad or good thing.
+
+Something with this mindset:
+Older I get the more I think that the best strategy in life is just getting yourself a big ol honking drug addiction and then going without, going without, going withooooout and then giving in just a little bit.
+
+And repeating this cycle until you die?
+
+This is the only thing that's kept me going through the years.
+This is what I've found most satisfying after trying everything else.
+
+
+Everything else is just a lie you believe when you're 17-37.
+
+Work? Your career is most likely to be a drag and barely tolerable no matter what line you're in.
+My brother is a (medical) doctor and trust me he's miserable even though he mostly sets his own hours and is rich.
+
+Family? Don't make me laugh. Your wife will always be at worst a monster you want to kill at best a pretty good friend.
+
+Friends? C'mon. I've had dozens of friends and only knew one single person that I really thought was amazing and even he was sort of an asshole.
+
+Travel and hobbies? Eventually they get boring.
+
+But anyways, was just wondering if there's any novels that treat functional drug use in a positive light and not in some PSA, "drugs are bad, mkay?" cliched way.
+
+Will check this thread tomorrow.
+
+Thanks.
+*nods*
+https://youtu.be/Cea6BggOq00 [Embed]
+--- 21934860
+>>21934835 (OP)
+Oops, forgot to say:
+Kids? Kids are fun, amazing really, ... For about 8 or 9 years. When you seem like a God to them and everything you show then is amazing. Then they're the worst roommates you could ever possibly have. Leave shit all over the place, lie about it, don't pay rent, sneak into your room to steal, hate you with a passion (if your a dad) and argue with you for no reason just to take you on and piss you off and... If you're a good parent, if you've succeeded at parenting the end result is a child that becomes an adult and leaves you ...20 years older and grey off hair and mind 
+and maybe helps you occasionally biyt usually just stops by periodically looking for money or more help.
+Parents always love their kids more than kids love their parents.
+So, at best a friend but never really because they'll always be 20-30 years younger than you.
+
+Okay that's about it 
+Look forward to your suggestions.
+--- 21935082
+Is what you just described considered "functional"?
+--- 21935910
+Phillip K Dick books. 3 stigmata and Game players of Titan especially
+--- 21936836
+>>21935082
+I'm employed. 
+I'm housed.
+I'm happy. 
+I'm not on welfare.
+And I use a drug / drugs recreationally as part of my work - life balance and because I enjoy them.
+So, if a human has the "function" of supplying for his or herself the basic necessities, food, clothing, shelter and then some, and adds value to society, and enjoying their lives (even if they waste some of it posting typo-riddled, long-winded *junk* to a particularly vexing and soon-to-be shuttered by TPTB Mongolian basket-weaving forum)...then yes I'd say that is functional.
+
+:-)
+
+Jaded, perhaps.
+But functional. 
+At the least.
+
+>>21935082
+Thanks.
+I think this comes as close as we're going to get.
+PKD, in some of his books, I seem to remember, wrote openly and frankly and matter-of-factly about human beings supplementing their reality, boosting their limited, human ability to think, feel, act, perform in whatever direction they wanted to, by using substances-as-tools-that-God-granted-for-their-reasonable-use. Doing so in a sort of "transhumanistic" style, as was his fashion.
+Thanks, anon.
+I'd forgotten about Phillip K Dick.
+
+===
+
+Given the propensity for drug use and abuse by authors, so many authors, dare I say *most* (famous ones at least)... I find it... interesting that so few include this bit of "what they know/knew" into their writings.
+Social pressure and editors, I guess.
+Hmm. Now that I think of it I wonder if that movie, "Wonder Boys" was based on a book?
+I could look it up, and will after I post this, but you get the idea.
+Even though, now that I'm thinking even more, the marijuana was, even in that fun n funny story, a source of the author's inability to complete his book and so "drugs r bad, mkay?" *still* applied.
+Good movie though 
+Some of you might enjoy it.
+https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Boys_(film)
+Ah! It was based on a book.
+Good.
+You guys might really like that. Esp if you're in a creative writing class. Trot that one out to ye olde professor maybe. Heh.
+
+Note: like any set of powerful tools misuse can cost you your life and looong before then you might wish and pray that you were dead. But drug use has been around all of human history, hell, even, technically speaking, B4 that. Even animals use drugs. So there's this huge, unwritten about chunk of human experience. That block between degenerate, physically-mentally-socially harmful, uncontrolled / unconscious abuse (that we always hear about) ...and teetotaling, I follow whatever the FDA / Respective Drug Authority of Your Country tells me from week to week & not-even-strong-coffee-and-cigareetes.
+
+Worldwide, I'd say the vast 
+majority of humanity fits in 
+there. 
+And the Puritan prudishness 
+and fear, distrust of "letting go 
+and having too much fun" is 
+mainly a "Great Satan" thing?
+
+See:
+"High Society: The Central Role of Mind-Altering Drugs in History, Science, and Culture" 
+by Mike Jay
+http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=D7FDF33F2EEB076A4FE733F3A18E88DF
+
+Ok, VERY GOOD.
+THANKS AGAIN, anon!!
+--- 21938095
+Money, kinda. 
+The guy is addicted to money and is a functional alcoholic

lit/21935043.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,497 @@
+-----
+--- 21935043
+>the universe is eternal, it has always been
+okay, I'm following. turtles all the way down. not a big fan but let's see...
+>BUTTTT causality can't be a chain forever, so we have to think of a first cause, the unmoved mover 
+uhhh, so I guess we're not doing the turtles thing anymore? alright, switching gears, maybe we can make this work if we put some questions to the side. maybe there was nothing but the first mover...
+>nothing comes from nothing
+huh. okay. fine. so we're in agreement that the first mover had to have been there. but what about everything else? maybe everything just emerged from the thinker, like Athena from Zeus. maybe we had this undifferentiated mass surrounding this first mover in the beginning prior to the first movement? but where did that matter come from? 
+>also, the first mover doesn't give a shit about anything. it's just thinking thinking thinking, absorbed in contemplation.
+uhhh, so why did it stop thinking and start creating? why was there a point where it didn't care to create? how long did that "loneliness" last? did it care about anything else?
+>care? lol, no it doesn't. prime mover dgaf about anybody. it's perfect. 
+wait so what's all this talk about final causes about then, Aristotle? the parts of nature have final causes but ALL of nature has no final cause? even though its creator is literally final cause the entity (muh thought)? why the fuck did Spinoza hate Aristotle then? they'd go together like peas in a pod. 
+>and ACKSHUALLY there isn't just ONE unmoved mover, but 55 unmoved mover
+alright FUCK this shit, I'm not even going to try to figure this one out. I'm done. this guy is literally throwing all the shit at the wall to see what sticks. "I'm the superhero with ALL the superpowers": the cosmology.
+--- 21935057
+yes the problem with thinkers i that they think in order to think. That's it, they jsut think and they claim it's a good thing.
+Thinkers can't have a goal because thinkers will clearly be judged by their audience: either the goal is reached or it is not.
+
+The only purpose of a thinkers is larping and getting praised by bugs living off them and feeding them some story who they are awesome for supporting the guru.
+--- 21935060
+>>21935043 (OP)
+I always tell people to read primary sources first, forgetting that people like you exist.
+--- 21935062
+Omg physics and chemistry basically unveiled all of natures mysteries who cares about these ancient explanaitons anymore. 
+Thats of course disregarding that the Pythagoreans were right about everything.
+--- 21935065
+>>21935060
+Yeah, God forbid I pretend that the author knows what he's talking about and make every effort to make everything cohere together. If you can't see how, at least at a first glance, that there's multiple clashing cosmological "themes" present in Aristotle's account of the beginning, then idk what to tell you except you have no business talking down to anybody.
+--- 21935183
+>Aristotle’s main characteristic could be described as the greatest sagacity, combined with circumspection, talent for observation, versatility, and lack of profundity. His view of the world is shallow even if ingeniously elaborated. Depth of thought finds its material within ourselves; sagacity has to receive it from outside in order to have data. However, in those times the empirical data were in part scanty and in part even false. Therefore, the study of Aristotle is nowadays not very rewarding, while that of Plato remains so to the highest degree. The lack of profundity reprimanded in Aristotle of course becomes most visible in metaphysics, where mere sagacity does not suffice, as it does elsewhere; so that in this he satisfies least. His Metaphysics is for the most part talking back and forth about the philosophemes of his predecessors, whom he criticizes and refutes from his point of view, mostly in reference to isolated utterances by them, without really penetrating their meaning, rather like someone who breaks the windows from the outside. He advances only a few, or none, of his own dogmas, at least not in systematic fashion. That we owe a large part of our knowledge of the older philosophemes to his polemics is an accidental achievement. He is hostile towards Plato mostly where the latter is completely right. Plato’s ‘Ideas’ continue coming back up into his mouth, like something that he cannot digest; he is determined not to admit their validity. – Sagacity suffices in the empirical sciences; consequently Aristotle has a predominantly empirical direction. But as empirical science since that time has made so much progress that it compares to its past state as the manly age compares to infancy, today’s empirical sciences cannot be much advanced directly through the study of his philosophy, but indirectly they can through the method and the properly scientific attitude that characterizes him and was brought into the world by him.
+
+>The radical antithesis of Aristotle, in the way of thinking as well as in the presentation, is Plato. The latter holds on to his main thought as if with an iron hand, follows its thread, even if it becomes ever so thin, in all its ramifications, through the labyrinths of the longest dialogues, and finds it again after all episodes. One can tell, before he started writing, he had thoroughly and entirely thought through his subject and had designed an artful order for its presentation. ...Therefore, we need not be so much surprised if, as some reports indicate, especially in Aelian (Historical Miscellany III, 19; IV, 9; etc.), a major personal disharmony manifested itself between Plato and Aristotle, and Plato may even from time to time have spoken somewhat contemptuously of Aristotle, whose wanderings, vagaries, and digressions relate to his polymathy, but are wholly antipathetic to Plato. Schiller’s poem ‘Breadth and Depth’ can also be applied to the opposition between Aristotle and Plato.
+--- 21935201
+>>21935183
+Damn he's handsome here
+--- 21935209
+>>21935060
+Lol
+
+But please elaborate rather than shitpost
+--- 21935217
+>>21935183
+Fucking idiot, what a fucking retard, I can’t believe he said this.
+--- 21935225
+>>21935217
+crab
+--- 21935237
+>>21935201
+he just looks like wolverine
+--- 21935244
+>>21935043 (OP)
+OP here btw, this is more of a hopeful cry for help from an Aristotlechad than a condemnation of Aristotle. I thought I understood Aristotle but now I clearly don't, and idk if the problem is him or I.
+--- 21935253
+>>21935237
+Hugh Jackman is handsome too
+--- 21935256
+>>21935217
+If Schopenhauer spent half of much time reading Aristotle as Plato he would have realized that Aristotle intentionally “misses the point” and takes other philosophers at their word. Only when you are a mature philosopher do you stop caring about the gist or what people “really meant” and you stop caring about mystic bullshit and you start caring about the minute details of argument and truth. Aristotle underwent the Eleusinian mysteries and he supported Plato for a decade. He simply does not give a fuck about imprecision. Being willing to forsake persuasive and high minded ideals for methodical precision is called humility and it is the prerequisite for being a true philosopher. The fact that Schopenhauer admitted his philosophy was inconsistent and should be taken “metaphorically” proves he never reached this stage. That is why his philosophy never changed after he wrote the world as will and representation. Aristotle perfectly understood what Plato and Parmenides were really saying, he simply doesn’t care for their bullshit, and his insight into their philosophies when he debunks them based on tiny little technical issues IS profound if you understand that the details contain the whole.
+--- 21935296
+>>21935043 (OP)
+Aristotle and most other ancient and scholastic philosophers had enormous problems getting their head around the concept of infinity in its various guises (eternal time, endless and infinitely divisible space...), it's futile to look for logical consistency there because they lacked precise concepts, BUT the confusion about it was very very fruitful for the development of modern mathematics.
+If you (or any interested anon) happen to read German, theres a great short book called "Unendlichkeiten" by Harro Heuser (math professor) which tells the history of the concept of infinity, including a broad discussion of Aristotles cosmology and its later influence, up to Cantor.
+--- 21935300
+>>21935043 (OP)
+>eternality = turtles all the way down
+You are stupid. Eternality is literally the opposite.
+--- 21935301
+>>21935296
+>maths professor
+>talking about non-mathematical infinity
+I'd rather not.
+--- 21935326
+>turtles all the way down.
+It's not turtles all the way down, i.e., it's not an infinite regress. Given the notion that there are causes and effects in the world, and that every cause we see is an effect of a prior cause, he surveys the two possibilities: one, an infinite regress; two, a first cause that is ontologically different from the other causes in one key way: it is a self-causing cause. 
+
+You're also conflating what in Aristotle's thought is called efficient causation with formal causation. This is why you are confused by the idea of the divine being simultaneously the first cause ("first" here implying there was a time at which this first cause set creation in motion), and not first cause (because there was no beginning so there was no "causing event"). But in the natural ontology of Greek and more specifically Platonic thought, the divine is the FORMAL cause of everything else in the sense that it "enables" their formal existence in some way. In Plato this is through "participation." The classic examples are Pythagorean and numerical: random numbers have their formal cause in the "unit" which is more primordially formal than them. All numerical conceptions and statements participate unity. In fact, all things participate the divine unity, because it is necessary for anything to "be" anything - it has to "be" what it is as a unit, distinct from the multiplicity of other things, and from the multiplicity of things contained in itself (both its material elements, and its attributes). Thus all beings are somewhat contradictory in their very nature: they contain both multiplicity and unity, and can only be seen under these different aspects when we look at them in different ways. Only the divine mind is above all this and somehow fully reconciles unity and plurality in itself. 
+
+Aristotle is in problematic dialogue with Platonism but is still basically a Platonist, and his divine creator is the formal and final cause of all things because it is perfection and self-unity, toward which everything else tends because it wants to become more unified. 
+
+>maybe we had this undifferentiated mass surrounding this first mover in the beginning prior to the first movement? but where did that matter come from? 
+You are conflating mechanical/material ideas of being with ideal and formal ones here again. This isn't forbidden but it's not going to get you a good understanding of the Greeks. You mostly think this way due to 400 years of classical mechanics and materialistic physics infiltrating cosmology, since Galileo and Descartes. I recommend reading The Greek Concept of Matter, and The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Science.
+--- 21935330
+>>21935326
+Matter has only a shadowy pseudo-existence for Platonic thought. It has no independent ontological status. Plato never fully explains it except the mirror or receptacle of ideal being. For Aristotle there is a kind of fundamental matter but he just adopts it pragmatically from the element-theory of his predecessors. This matter is to be distinguished from what is often translated as matter in Aristotle, "hyle," which really means the building materials that make up a thing. Aristotle uses hyle interchangeably for the letters that make up a word or the words that make up a sentence and the real physical material that makes up an organism. It's an abstract concept meant to designate whatever the necessary parts are, which are taken up into the formalized contingent being, which is then a hybrid (hylo-morphic) of material organized by form. Its concrete contingent physical self is subject to physical interactions (efficient causes) with other beings but also subject to the formal and final causes of its own continuing to persist (its form in-forming its matter). 
+
+>so why did it stop thinking and start creating?
+It didn't. God for Aristotle is basically Nous, the Mind of the world. It has always been and will always be, which means the world is uncreated. It has the same relationship of formalization to the world that the mind and form of an organism has to its constituent matter, more or less. Christian Aristotelians like Aquinas argue about this but there is little doubt that this was Aristotle's original view. 
+
+>so what's all this talk about final causes about then, Aristotle? the parts of nature have final causes but ALL of nature has no final cause? 
+The divine is the final cause of nature. Final means seeking the finis, the end. This has the dual meaning of the terminal point of something and the conscious intent of something, once again showing how Greek conceptions of being were inextricably interwoven with psychological conceptions, because they took psyche to be the mirror of nature and vice versa. Everything in the world wills to be what it is, which means to be more perfect (per-facere: complete, fin-ished), and perfection means being closer to one's form (since one's form is the "design" toward which one's "building materials" or hyle are "intended" to be mobilized). Like Plato, Aristotle sees all contingent being as caught somewhere between perfect approximation to their form and being pulled apart by or pulled own into contingent existence, whose shadowy nature as the receptacle is unformedness and absence of form. All of nature is striving to be "better" (again, value is loaded into being), to reach its "arete" (its excellence - Plato and Aristotle appropriate this term to mean simply finishedness or being-what-it-really-is).
+--- 21935334
+>>21935301
+I assure you he does proper justice to all "non-mathematical" aspects in the cultural history of infinity, including minute duscussion of Greek etymologies.
+What's non-mathematical infinity anyway, got a definition (please no pilpul about how infinity cannot be de-fined)?
+--- 21935340
+>>21935330
+ The divine is the final cause of all beings because everything seeks to approximate its well-formedness and unity, striving "upward" to higher form. Humans are blessed because they participate in the divine mind itself when they are fortunate enough to align themselves in near perfection and reason purely, with their contingent elements lining up or synchronizing as what they are meant to be: vehicles for participating in pure mentation, like the divine mind. This is Aristotle's idea of eudaimonia and ataraxia, since our contingency is suppressed and we behold nature contemplatively as a unity (theoria) and with perfect clarity.
+
+>55 unmoved movers
+The doctrine of the celestial spheres is pretty obscure but basically any form of uncreated eternally ongoing motion requires a prime mover to motivate it, and if there are X celestial spheres, then you need X "local" unmoved movers of those spheres, which move the spheres in the same way teleologically that the divine moves the whole universe. But yes this is one of the most obscure aspects of Aristotle's thought and a reminder in my view that we shouldn't treat it as a seamless system.
+
+Again regardless of what you end up thinking of Aristotle I think your main mistake is in not fully understanding his conceptual apparatus for understanding and explaining causation. Even if you take nothing from Aristotle and become an ardent materialist later, you should still try to see how his system does make sense based on the assumptions and axioms underlying it. It's also a good opportunity to understand Greek thought more broadly, especially Plato's. I recommend "Aristotle and other Platonists" by Lloyd Gerson.
+--- 21935347
+>>21935334
+>>21935296
+Does he talk about concepts of infinity in the scholastics, Spinoza, Leibniz, etc.? I've always wanted something that neatly traces the development of the concept of finitude/infinity as Hegel uses it.
+--- 21935366
+>>21935347
+Yes, there's a lot about the scholastics, quite a bit about Spinoza, a big fascinating chapter on Giordano Bruno, some Kant, and the later chapters deal with the mathematicians who cleared up confusions about calculus and developed set theory, like Bolzano, Dedekind, Hilbert and finally Cantor.
+--- 21935368
+>>21935366
+That's awesome, I'm getting that today. Thanks for the rec.
+--- 21935382
+>>21935334
+>please no pilpul about how infinity cannot be de-fined)
+It is not pilpul, at all. If you think it is then you've already locked yourself out of the proper discussion, and into the mathematical realm of quantative repetition or direction. That you are claiming he "does justice" to it is already massively undermined to me if he does not honestly deal with the problem of indefinability, and instead focuses on contingent, finite concepts (which are all inherently contradictory for that very reason when they are labelled as "infinite").
+>got a definition
+Think about what the word means: in-finity. Non-finite, non-limited. A definition is a delimitation. Infinite space and infinite time are contradictions strictly speaking (because one is stating: infinite finitude (space), infinite finitude (time) ), what is really meant in these cases is indefinacy, or repetition. It's the typical mathematical misunderstanding transposed into metaphysics. Aquinas is the one Western philosopher who comes substantially close to understanding this, but even he still (this point is much more debateable, however) fails by retaining a substantial distinction between infinite potency and infinite act. The reason this is debateable is because Aquinas repeatedly alludes to the fact that potency is not "actually" infinite, but only indefinite, act is what is really infinite. Again, there are still problems here, but he is nowhere near as shortsighted as mathematicians who try their hands at metaphysics.
+
+> it's futile to look for logical consistency there because they lacked precise concepts
+We still lack precise concepts for infinity. We have different, precise concepts for indefinite objects. The reason the older philosophers had difficulty getting their head around it is because they were either not dealing with infinite per se, or they were making the same mistake modern mathematicians do.
+--- 21935403
+Aristotle’s work is incredibly profound, there seems to be a real and genuine conspiracy to obscurificate his philosophy and it’s contributions to western thought, i guess likely in part because particular readings of his work can be used to justify a lot of bullshit like ethnocentrism, slavery, etc. After even just some cursory experience with Aristotle’s corpus (read his Categories, read of his Metaphysics and Nichomachean ethics and watched a few lectures about them, already know about his influence in Scholastic logic and deduction) a lot of modern philosophy either seems like a literal rehash of Aristotle or his work is otherwise of huge relevance, I’m thinking Heidegger and phenomenology, Kant’s critique of Descartes’ cogito ego sum, the basis for Kant’s categories, natural law, even Hegel’s Geist (teleology of history and the unmoved mover), my point being that you should really ignore anyone who attempts to downplay Aristotle as some irrelevant 
+nobody who’s only contribution to the western canon is the development of le ancient greek science based on le heckin weird prime matter and a faulty logic framework, you only need to look at this comment i’ve just wrote to see just one example of Aristotle’s pervasive influence (language). Modal logic, The Three Laws of Thought and language all have huge influences on hierarchal systems of organisation, information theory and human culture, it could be due to the fact, as previously mentioned, that i guess particular readings of his works can be used to justify stuff like enforced servitude, dominance hierarchies with no accountability, ethnocentric statism, etc, or that, in ancient times, a perquisite of studying Aristotle’s work was a sort of initiation like in a mystery religion, but a lot of his work’s influence on our modern world seem’s strangely hidden and obscured, only ever getting elicitations about it if you pry and ask very specific questions that don't have much wriggle room for obscurity, one comfort is in the notion that, if we are being ruled over by a secret cabal of Aristotelians, they very probably really appreciate qualia
+--- 21935409
+>>21935043 (OP)
+One thing to adress
+
+What if contemplation is creation?
+--- 21935471
+>>21935382
+Well, I pretty much predicted that response, that's what 
+>pilpul about how infinity cannot be de-fined
+alluded to (note the hyphen). 
+Of course the author mentioned deals with such facile hairsplitting as "b-but definition means making the infinite finite, it cant be done!"; the impotence of pre-mathematical attempts to introduce some sort of clarity into the topic is a major point of the book. 
+Yes, we can just agree that there is this word+concept that cannot be defined, ergo cannot be properly used apart from suggesting some mood in poetry. What's the intellectual added value of this? The mathematical treatment at least turns it into something that can be coherently used in deductions, ie something precise. As for any ghostly concepts we just don't get to talk about, I refer you to Wittgenstein.
+--- 21935714
+>>21935326
+>>21935330
+>>21935340
+Thank you for taking the time to effortpost and clear things up for me. You're absolutely right that I muddied the waters by not carefully thinking about the different causes and how they apply here. However, I'm still confused by the following:
+>This is why you are confused by the idea of the divine being simultaneously the first cause ("first" here implying there was a time at which this first cause set creation in motion), and not first cause (because there was no beginning so there was no "causing event").
+Is this akin to saying that "formal causes" have existed eternally, while "efficient causes" had a definite beginning? Because there definitely seems to be a strain of Aristotelian thinking where he views the universe as having always existed, which sounds like there was no set beginning, yet there needs to be an explanation of motion and that requires a definite beginning. I wonder if the formal/efficient distinction is a way of fixing this.
+--- 21936140
+bump
+--- 21936166
+>>21935256
+>Only when you are a mature philosopher do you stop caring about the gist or what people “really meant”
+oh nononono
+--- 21936315
+>>21935043 (OP)
+You (deliberately?) confuse the universe with the physical world and don't understand logic including causality must rest on something not obeying the laws of logic or causality.
+--- 21936355
+>>21936315
+>deliberately?
+meds
+--- 21936367
+>>21936315
+Disabuse me of this confusion then.
+--- 21936397
+>>21936355
+There's no interpretation where being confused about something like that is reasonable. It's most likely deliberate obtuseness because he associates this line of arguments with classical monotheism which he considers ideologically opposed to him. So instead of considering what's said he actively tries to reduce everything to dumb memes.
+>>21936367
+I don't know how, your mind is too fucked. You talk about logic but then appear to not grasp the simplest basics. How does something start if no rules exist? Any conceivable starting point you can think of will be dependant on some rules already existing or you wouldn't be able to describe the state. All models of physical things assume pre-existing rules not dependent on any of the physical things we describe using those rules. Our best models say the physical world has a starting point but those models also depend on already existing rules, rules any physical phenomena you can describe including the big bang will depend on. In other words the universe is eternal but our causal chain had a beginning.
+--- 21936413
+>>21936397
+>uhhhh your mind is fucked and you can't do logic if you can't believe two contradictory models are actually the same thing
+--- 21936417
+>>21936397
+>There's no interpretation where being confused about something like that is reasonable. It's most likely deliberate obtuseness because he associates this line of arguments with classical monotheism which he considers ideologically opposed to him. So instead of considering what's said he actively tries to reduce everything to dumb memes.
+didn't read
+--- 21936422
+>>21936397
+The weird thing about this post is how presumptuous it is.
+>classical monotheism which he considers ideologically opposed to him
+I'm a Christian. 
+>You talk about logic 
+Never even mentioned it.
+>In other words the universe is eternal but our causal chain had a beginning.
+Ever heard of the Munchausen trilemma? From the way you're describing Aristotle's cosmology, it is ultimately a model that relies on all three equally unsatisfying yet mutually incompatible arguments for proof.
+--- 21936449
+>>21936413
+Why do you do this kind of stuff? What's wrong with your brain?
+>>21936422
+>Never even mentioned it.
+The whole question is about Aristotelian causality, logical cause and effect, the root of all formal logic.
+>it is ultimately
+Everything is like I said in the post you're replying to. You have to start with some assumed ruleset. There's not even a hint of any model about where the rules come from, the question is not addressed in any way through any physics model, every single one assumes a set of rules. It's a prerequisite to describe anything.
+>In epistemology, the Münchhausen trilemma is a thought experiment intended to demonstrate the theoretical impossibility of proving any truth
+ANY truth. These conclusions like ALL logical conclusions come from assuming the basic rules of logic, Aristotelian logical causality, if x then y.
+
+What do you think is "proven"? What doesn't fail your munchausen test?
+--- 21936464
+>>21936449
+>You HAVE to start with some assumed ruleset chud!!
+--- 21936467
+>>21935043 (OP)
+>causality can't be a chain forever
+Why not?
+--- 21936483
+>>21935714
+No prob, I hope at least some of it was helpful even if I worded it poorly. Sorry for the following, it got way too long. 
+
+>Is this akin to saying that "formal causes" have existed eternally, while "efficient causes" had a definite beginning?
+Yes, or at least they CAN exist eternally. If causes are prior to effects, and effects are posterior to causes, then efficient causes are TEMPORALLY prior to their effects, while formal causes are LOGICALLY prior. If you imagine a static universe in which there is no temporality, just a sphere of pure being, but that this being, because of its metaphysical nature, is necessarily differentiated or "emanated" into three "levels" (hypostases), let's just say, then you can say that, even though the whole "system" is eternal and has never moved and has always been that way, logically speaking the first emanation is caused by the second, and, logically speaking, the second emanation (the third and final grade of being) is caused by both the prior grade and by ultimate being. Now if you add a fourth layer to this universe, a temporal layer which for whatever reason is a space NOT of static be-ing but of temporal "becoming" (what Aristotle calls the intertwined process of "coming-to-be and coming-not-to-be," or "becoming and passing-away"), then the contingent becoming-beings on this third hypostases or fourth level of be-ing will still be formally caused by the preceding levels even while acting on each other in efficient ways. 
+
+This is a really important distinction in Western metaphysics down to about 1600, when it's commonly said (in a bit of simplification but good enough) that "formal and final causes were rejected, leaving only material and efficient causes" in metaphysics and natural philosophy. A large part of the problem is that these days cause is almost entirely, and reflexively, understood in terms of efficient causation, and not even just that, but a specifically materialistic and mechanistic subset of efficient causation associated with the modern geometrical/mechanical "physics" (very different from Aristotle's non-geometrical physics). Aristotle's original notion of efficient causation was more expansive than just "ball hitting other ball makes other ball move," and was really another abstraction, like hyle, that was designed to cover a wider range of things.
+--- 21936489
+>>21936467
+I mean, maybe causality is a chain that goes on forever. Maybe it's that axiom that we have to hold to because, compared to other possible axioms, it best explains the totality of everything. The problem is when you initially hold onto the
+>infinite regress
+AND
+>first cause
+structure of argument. They're not compatible with each other. Aristotle sounds like he's trying to take the best of both Spinozan and Biblical cosmology and combine them together. And then he starts adding some seemingly arbitrary polytheism on top of it that, again, appears to cause the entire explanation to implode on itself (because now no longer have causality coalescing on a single point of first cause, for some reason, resulting in a messier cosmos). Again, maybe a polytheistic first cause argument is what happened, but it seems to come out of nowhere, violating the spirit of the argument that initially led us to posit a first cause in the first place.
+--- 21936492
+>itt no one has read aristotle
+Unsurprising.
+
+Aristotle argues that the Unmoved Movers (there's 47-55 of them as they are the Olympians) are made out of a special element, quintessence. Quintessence isn't subject to growth or decay, and moves in perfect circles. This is why the chain stops at the Unmoved Movers (they don't create each other btw, Zeus is the "Prime Mover" as he's the one farthest from the Earth). The world itself is a giant swirl of change, but the Gods move in neat and tidy pattern and always have. Their undying nature is why they are divine. Also, the Gods are perfectly spherical, of neutral temperature, and emit no sound as they move, although they do emit light. That light bit is important.
+
+As the Gods move through the heavens, they turn the Celestial Spheres. Technically, the Spheres rotate of their own free will to follow the Gods, as each Sphere Loves (capital L here as this "love" is special) a given God. The Sphere turns, which rotates other things (either things that Love the Sphere and are following it, or things that are lodged in the sphere). Causality is thus "pulled" along by the Gods. So, it's not correct to say that the Gods "created" anything, rather things came about by virtue of their existence. The "Unmoved" bit is also a bit of a pun, as a thing that moves in eternal perfect circles never comes to a rest, so it isn't (According to Aristotle) technically moving. Really, things occur because the Gods exist in some given configuration.
+
+Remember how the Gods emit light? Each God's light has different properties. This is a secondary means by which causality occurs, with their lights causing various phenomena in the sub-lunar (earthly) world. This is why Ares causes war and Aphrodite causes love despite neither actually "doing" anything, they pull causality along as they pseudo-move and emit light that has an affect on things made out of the other four elements (water, fire, air, wood).
+
+You'll notice that this doesn't allow a start point, as the Gods can never be at rest. That's correct, Aristotle argues that we exist in an eternal physical flux, surrounded by the loving intellects of the Gods constantly churning the swirl of matter. All things have been, and will be again, as there is no beginning or end, just eternity. The Gods' lack of true-movement means that they are, in a sense, actually rings, and we just happen to see a slice of them at a given time, with time itself just being the flow of matter (as opposed to the Abrahamic idea of Yahweh's pocket watch). Their lights, then, aren't something that they emit, but rather something static that matter is dancing across.
+--- 21936494
+>>21936483
+For example, who or what is the efficient cause of a bullet firing from a musket when you pull the trigger? Is it you, as a whole and as a willing mind, who chose to pull the trigger? Or is it your finger on the trigger? Or the trigger that triggered the next mechanism? Or the next mechanism, and so on etc. Or is it the spark that lit the powder, or the explosion that actually impelled the bullet, etc. There is obviously no one "true" answer to this, metaphysically speaking. These are all different perspectives on the same process and can be "right" at different levels or for different purposes. The term efficient cause is thus usually a relative one, used as appropriate: erosion was an efficient cause of the Grand Canyon, but YOU were the efficient cause of the barn you built, in that you "effected" (made-come-about-from-out-of an existing state, i.e. efficere, from ex-facere) the barn. 
+
+The barn example really lets us see the phenomenological-heuristic openness and thus usefulness of Aristotle's four causes model in action, in letting us decompose a problem and re-compose it as an explanatory "account" (a logos). And, for Aristotle, a "science" is considered complete when it is built up of a parsimonious set of such interlinking accounts or explanatory-sentences, logoi, giving a SUFFICIENT account of ALL the fundamental phenomena relevant to some problem or domain of nature, like biology or the kinetics of non-living objects. (Thus metaphysics is the "science of sciences" since it assumes all the particular sciences are more or less complete and can be used as meta-logoi for one big meta-science.)
+
+To understand the generality of Aristotle's conception of causation, one of the best things you can do is put yourself back in the position of a Greek peasant prior to the existence of any technical philosophical jargon, like essences or even causes. Imagine you have lots of "earthy," concrete and direct notions like "cat," "sky," "grain," but your brain strains when you try to imagine something like "the totality of some class of things, like 'cats', in general" - if you were a Greek peasant in 800BC you wouldn't have concepts like "totality" or "class" or even "in general" yet. Someone has to come along and invent these terms, which means the first people to invent them are going to have to "appropriate" concrete earthy terms and give THOSE extended and metaphorical uses. We take all these abstractions for granted but they are really the result of thousands of years of sedimentation starting from these fateful decisions by the Greeks, especially Plato and Aristotle, about what terms to to appropriate and how. We've already seen hyle, which Aristotle drew from a very concrete term used by builders to mean building materials "in general," not just particular ones.
+--- 21936498
+>>21936483
+>>21936494
+(preceding posts are 1 and 2, this is 3 of ?)
+
+So if you put yourself in this position and try to understand what it would be like to "see" and propose a useful concept of causation, it makes your mind more receptive than if you assume any one reflexive sense of causation, like our own, built up through centuries of taking these earlier uses for granted and half-consciously recombining them for new technical uses. 
+
+Aristotle fatefully "chooses" (half-choice, half-necessity) to build his own concept of cauation from the word aitia, derived from a verb meaning something like "be-responsible-for," "be-answerable-to-for," even "be-guilty-of" or "complainable-to" (for something). You can see how that's a lot more subtle than just "thing Y that made X happen, in a temporal development." It is also more expansive than any visual metaphor you may find your mind defaulting to when it tries to think of causation. One of the hallmarks of the modern, instinctively physicalist worldview is that we tend to think in visual metaphors (i.e. when we imagine "the Absolute" we fuzzily, without noticing it, imagine something like a sphere, which occupies space and thus perdures in time - but is "perdurance" logically identical to "eternality?" this is at least a question, which is why it's dangerous to simply default to such thinking), and we thus privilege physical causation, i.e., as unfolding in unidirectional linear time (billiard ball hitting other billiard balls logic), because (following Kant) our visualization is built on Euclidean space/time-seeing, and thus presumes all the geometric and mechanical relationships that follow from this. But this way of seeing originates with Galileo and Descartes, who made it it reflexive through their revolution in modern physical science, by placing geometrical mechanics (aka textbook physics) at the core of all explanations for all non-mental phenomena, very different from Aristotle's conception of science (which didn't assume that all domains ultimately resolve into mechanical relationships between geometrical entities in space and time). Whether one agrees with the Greeks or not, they DID NOT "see" geometrical-mechanical interactions (physics) as the "default" primary layer of reality like we do. They tended to see qualitative, subjectively experiencable phenomena as impervious to such reduction, so that extreme materialism reductionism at least required a self-conscious commitment and leap. 
+
+So if we at least temporarily suspend our tendency to visualize geometrical and mechanical relationships in space and time, how can we explain something as simple as a barn's "being there" in terms of a notion of causation that is as flexible and general as "responsibility-for," "why-it's-there-ness" in the most general possible sense?
+--- 21936502
+>>21936498
+(4 of ?)
+Remember, the Greeks also made NO A PRIORI ASSUMPTION that mental phenomena like willing, intending, etc. were posterior to or somehow inferior to or merely parasitic upon physical phenomena, like Descartes and Locke and Newton and so on. The Greeks took mental phenomena by default as having at least some real, actual being, and they took "external" being as having mentality somehow interwoven with it or built into it, not just having it as a quasi-illusory "epiphenomenon." This is one of the trickiest things to wrap your mind around in my opinion, and it comes in at exactly this point, where Aristotle, to our modern sensibility, "wavers" very confusingly between "heuristic nominalism" and "naive realism." I.e., when he is speaking about the causes of really existing natural phenomena "out there in the world," like species of animals, he will use his concepts of cause freely, and this at least makes sense to us - we just assume he's a metaphysical realist, who thinks his "causes" really exist in nature. But then when he applies the very same model to something as abstract as "letters are a material cause of words," we don't know how to make the transition from this "realist" commitment to material causation (as a kind of "force" or "law" really in the world) to this "heuristic" use of the concept (since "words" are clearly not "real things," i.e. self-subsistent entities, even for Aristotle). 
+
+This confusion comes in again when Aristotle uses his four causes to explain the barn, which (like a spoken or written word) is clearly not a "real thing" in the sense of being an essential part of the world, but a contingent combination of ACTUAL real things (like atoms or elements or whatever) put together by some person; but then he also uses his four causes to explain the existence of the human being, or even the existence of the whole cosmos. But if you suspend your (natural) confusion at this, and remember just how general his concept of cause is, and how he is concerned with getting all possible information of the "why" of something on the table and packed into a logos, it starts to make at least some sense: 
+>Object needing explanation (account/logos): Barn
+>Set of possible questions for an exhaustive logos of "that barn": Why is the barn there? Why does it exist, instead of not existing? Why does it exist the way it does (in the form it has), instead of some other way or form? 
+>Partial/possible answer: It is at least partly "responsible-to" (or "owes its possibility to") all the "stuff" (hyle) that makes up what it is. There could not be a barn, or at least this barn or this kind of barn, without these constituent parts. (Material cause) 
+>Partial/possible answer: It once was NOT, and now IS; something had to intervene to make it so, from-out-of "mere" materials (that otherwise would not BE or BE IN a barn). (Efficient cause)
+--- 21936504
+>>21936502
+>Partial/possible answer: In order to make what-was (mere material, in a sense: chaos) into what-is (something recognizably "something"), it had to have an IDEA, which it in a sense "superimposed" on the "mere materials" until they were no longer mere materials - it had to have a standard to hold up against the mere materials until they were taken up into something "more" than themselves (were formed into a "kind" of thing - an eidos or idea), thus uniting abstract/virtual Kind and contigent/concrete Real (Formal cause) 
+>Partial/possible answer: In order for this to take place, there had to be a kind of non-accidental, at least quasi-psychical "force," continuously impelling the act of creation until it was "done" (until the raw material coincided satisfactorily with the intended form), and thus e.g. able to recover from setbacks or start over from scratch, because it "wills" the unification of hyle and eidos until the "end" of this process is reached, and no sooner (Final cause) 
+
+All of these operate in tandem: The efficient cause (the human agent) in a sense "obeys" the formal and final causes, which work in tandem as a constant "push" force on the subordinate actions of the efficient causer. The hands keep working and shaping the wood and hammering the nails until the telos (end, finis) is reached, i.e., until the contingent matter in the world coincides with the virtual abstract eidos of a barn, creating a hybrid. 
+
+Because Aristotle starts from two premises - (1) we need a radically general account of all causing or "why-is-it-like-that" in general, so general in fact that we don't even begin by separating so-called "subjective" and "objective" forms of explanation, and (2) the world seems to be interwoven with psychicality and psychicality seems to be enworlded, and there is no obvious reason to subordinate psychical/subjective phenomena like appetition (desiring/willing/yearning) to material ones (inertial, non-mental) - he ends up with an account of all of reality itself that actually tends more in the opposite direction, i.e, toward metaphysical idealism, treating the cosmos itself like a soul-having organism governed by or culminating in its mind, and treating its corporeal/elemental elements as the lowest and LEAST causally significant part. Almost a total inversion of the modern tendency, in which the "simpler" is the ontologically and causally more significant by default.
+--- 21936508
+>>21936504
+(6 of 7)
+Where we reflexively seek to treat all phenomena as complexes made up of non-mental elements, the ancients usually reflexively tried to find a qualitative place in their metaphysical hierarchies for all phenomena that resisted reduction. Barns obviously don't resist reduction since they are purely contingent, but mental phenomena do, and organisms that come into being without human aid do. And depending on your perspective, either the highlight or the biggest blunder of the ancient ontological tendency was to explain non-mental nature on analogy with mental features rather than the other way around. So nature becomes a kind of anthropomorphic dance of death and rebirth or perennial changing of seasons, as all things "strive" to attain form, which explains why unformed and dispersed matter seemingly "wants" to become more formalized by being taken up into new lifeforms, and then die again and return to matter, but the total energy of the system stays the same as death is always balanced by rebirth and vice versa. This is the source of all "movement" in Aristotle's thought - the world is an eternal, self-enclosed system that re-instantiates its potential forms continuously, as matter yearns to be taken up into them and to em-body them, and then collapses back into mere material again, like the cycle of seasons at a cosmic level. 
+
+If you ever want a causal account (aitia) for the movement of particular things, you need to look at the natural eidoi (forms) they are embodying, which they do because they desire completeness/perfection/unity (likeness unto the divine, which is the only thing radically complete in itself forever with no need of change or becoming). The highest link in this chain is human reason, which gets as close to the divine as one can possibly get by building a hierarchical contemplative omni-science (metaphysics) that contains a perspicuous and interlinked set of accounts (logoi) for all possible phenomena in the unity-totality of nature. Just like when one surveys all of physics once one has a perspicuous and interlinked set of logoi for the domain of physics, in this meta-scientific "seeing" one can can survey the unity-totality of being itself, INCLUDING one's own participation in it (since one is a being that is part of the unity-totality, and one's knowledge reveals that one is in fact embodying the divine mind, the apex of the pyramid of reality), and this act of Reality (you / through you) thinking (through you, as the divine mind's thought) the totality of Being (yourself, as being) is an approximation of the divine mind's thought-thinking-itself. So our rare act of disinterested contemplation of the totality AS the totality is the closest we can get to actually attaining unity with the divine from within the temporal, we are the pyramidion or apex of the pyramid within the flux of being, the moment when becoming comes closest to touching being or does touch it at sort of tangent point.
+--- 21936512
+>>21936508
+(7 of 7)
+In this perennial self-creating and self-annihilating process, just like how the human mind has ideas and then has particular thoughts that more or less imperfectly instantiate these ideas, and just like how a living being only more or less imperfectly manifests its form due to accidents and contingencies (e.g. malnutrition or injury), the "forms" (timeless ideas, kinds, models, paradigms) are ALWAYS "present" in a way that MOTIVATES the endless roil of efficient causes and effects without being IN that roil. The idea Dog is not "in" a dog's body in the same way its food is, but somehow the relationship between the idea of Dog and the actual contingent dog, which takes up food-matter to become dog-matter (say, to heal a cut that temporarily made the dog "less" dog-ly, less perfectly dog-formed, through whatever contingent damage it received in the temporal flux) is analogous to, or maybe even the same as, the relationship between the true atemporally valid idea of Justice in your mind and its imperfect instantiations in your contingent thoughts about just/unjust things. 
+
+So in this ancient ontology, formal causation is the highest cause, because perfect being, which is perfect atemporal well-formedness such that it serves as a paradigm for all things that are DILUTED by their participation in becoming. The atemporal, well-formed is supra-material and yearned after by all becoming. That's how it "moves" it WITHOUT efficiently interacting with it, by (1) motivating it and (2) providing all its "ideas" of what it could ever strive/yearn for in the first place. They are thus constant, eternal causes, in a way that contingent choices "down here" like "I'm going to make a barn," or the fertilized egg's choice/desire to grow until it is "perfectly" a baby, are not. 
+
+All 7: 
+>>21936483
+>>21936494
+>>21936498
+>>21936502
+>>21936504
+>>21936508
+>>(this one)
+--- 21936513
+>>21936467
+We can only describe the chain as far back as logic allows. What defined the rules resulting in this eternal causal chain? You always reach the same singularity point no matter how much you struggle against it. 0.999.. is 1.
+According to our best physics models there's a distinct point called the big bang where a coherent causal chain that you can describe using logical models arises. In a vacuum what you measure is independent from that physical causal chain. Events there don't happen as a result of interactions with particles that are already here in the world, these events happen independently, a part of radioactive decay is also independent.
+--- 21936533
+>>21935183
+based
+--- 21936537
+>>21936166
+anglos really think like that
+--- 21936539
+>>21936537
+>logic, science, exactness, and clear writing are... LE BAD
+--- 21936545
+>>21936489
+As stated in >>21936492, Aristotle doesn't believe in a first cause. 
+
+Secondly, there's a difference between an infinite regress and an infinite causal chain.
+--- 21936550
+>>21935471
+The intellectual added value is precisely something that cannot be induced into intersubjective language games but can (indeed must) be employed as a transcendent limit to orient structures. Wittgenstein knew this. Read The Metaphysical Principles of the Infinitesimal Calculus.
+--- 21936559
+>>21936539
+>missing the point on purpose out of reflexive pedantry is... LE GOOD
+--- 21936561
+>>21936559
+correct. religious experience belongs in religion, not philosophy.
+--- 21936565
+>>21936561
+not even close to my point
+kek, case in point i guess
+--- 21936568
+>>21936565
+that's because you are too stupid to make the point you should be making. You are welcome that I steelmanned you.
+--- 21936571
+>>21936568
+kiss my brown eye
+--- 21936588
+>>21936483
+>No prob, I hope at least some of it was helpful even if I worded it poorly. Sorry for the following, it got way too long. 
+No worries. I was hoping for a good answer, and instead I found myself in the midst of a hidden /lit/ legend, the Aristotelian-as-a-phenomenologist anon (I have some of your archived threads from last year opened up from last year). I have a lot of reading to catch up on. But I have a few questions I can ask now: 
+>that this being, because of its metaphysical nature, is necessarily differentiated or "emanated" into three "levels" (hypostases), let's just say, then you can say that, even though the whole "system" is eternal and has never moved and has always been that way, logically speaking the first emanation is caused by the second, and, logically speaking, the second emanation (the third and final grade of being) is caused by both the prior grade and by ultimate being. Now if you add a fourth layer to this universe, a temporal layer which for whatever reason is a space NOT of static be-ing but of temporal "becoming" (what Aristotle calls the intertwined process of "coming-to-be and coming-not-to-be," or "becoming and passing-away"), then the contingent becoming-beings on this third hypostases or fourth level of be-ing will still be formally caused by the preceding levels even while acting on each other in efficient ways. 
+This was a great example. Are these hypostases something you've constructed for the sake of explaining how being can be logically, "ordinally" caused without implying temporal causation, or are you referring to an explicit metaphysical structure here? 
+>This is a really important distinction in Western metaphysics down to about 1600, when it's commonly said (in a bit of simplification but good enough) that "formal and final causes were rejected, leaving only material and efficient causes" in metaphysics and natural philosophy.
+This question is going to meander but please stick with me. I remember reading about how Marx explicitly rejected final causes. Instead, he posited that "final cause" should stand for "efficient cause." This materialistic, productive outlook is best explained in Marx's The German Ideology, where he explains how a liberated worker is free to have a "complete personality", able to: 
+>'...to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, [and] criticise after dinner...'
+What is the goal? To produce, to re-produce, to actualize all that is possible to one's whims. 
+How is this collapse of efficient and final cause not similar to a collapse of Aristotle's poiesis into mere praxis, and the corresponding intellectual virtues of techne into phronesis? If poiesis is concerned with action towards an end, and praxis is concerned with action for its own sake, then if we accept this efficient-as-final premise, then maximal production is what we should strive for (and perhaps why we ought to avoid such a modern mindset). Idk if that makes sense.
+--- 21936589
+>>21936492
+Gears and steam trains are cool I guess but why did this Greek man partly think like an autistic Anglo? Why didn't he go full space priest like everyone else?
+--- 21936603
+>>21936589
+Plato pointing up, Aristotle pointing down. He seems to have taken Plato's "criticize your owns society's idiocy" thing rather empirically. The Ancient Greeks used to believe that weasels gave birth through the mouth, and he delighted in dunking on the idiots who believe this (he had observed weasels give birth vaginally, you see). There's a few other times where he does this trick, like when he talks about the Gods not making music as they move, or why the Gods have to be finite in size (there wouldn't be room for the Earth if they were infinite).
+
+You can see the same thing happen in YEC vs Evolution debates today, where the YECers try to wordcel their way into creating magic spells to alter reality via utterances and the pro-Evolution crowd just frantically point to various empirically observable phenomena. It's a temperamental thing.
+--- 21936639
+>>21936603
+>It's a temperamental thing.
+Why does this Greek and the earlier Ionians have this temperament? Turns out the Scots are his cousins. The best Scots have male ancestry that migrated from ancient Greek territory 6k-2k years ago.
+--- 21936654
+>>21935043 (OP)
+You’re a faggot op, and your smug aura is annoying. 
+
+You’ve barely scratched the surface of understanding this and probably never will until you grasp logic better.
+
+Be assured you’re the worst type of retard: a smug one 
+
+>>21935060
+Wise
+--- 21936656
+>>21936502
+>"wavers" very confusingly between "heuristic nominalism" and "naive realism." I.e., when he is speaking about the causes of really existing natural phenomena "out there in the world," like species of animals, he will use his concepts of cause freely, and this at least makes sense to us - we just assume he's a metaphysical realist, who thinks his "causes" really exist in nature.
+Would you say that phenomenology (e.g. "'bracketing") is an attempt to "float" in this middle ground? 
+>This confusion comes in again when Aristotle uses his four causes to explain the barn, which (like a spoken or written word) is clearly not a "real thing" in the sense of being an essential part of the world, but a contingent combination of ACTUAL real things (like atoms or elements or whatever) put together by some person; but then he also uses his four causes to explain the existence of the human being, or even the existence of the whole cosmos. But if you suspend your (natural) confusion at this, and remember just how general his concept of cause is, and how he is concerned with getting all possible information of the "why" of something on the table and packed into a logos, it starts to make at least some sense: 
+How does Aristotle's four causes as explanation interact with his categories, his diairesis method, etc.? Could one "zoom in" and "zoom out" of any given situation to find "abstract hyle", e.g. zoom in to see subatomic particles, zoom out to see materials and their properties, zoom out to see building blocks, zoom out to see the house, zoom out to see the village, etc.? What other elements of Aristotle's conceptual toolkit are missing from what I just listed? What could be added to Aristotle's conceptual toolkit in order to make it "complete" for creating a science of sciences?
+--- 21936666
+>>21936492
+>he "Unmoved" bit is also a bit of a pun, as a thing that moves in eternal perfect circles never comes to a rest, so it isn't (According to Aristotle) technically moving.
+I'm confused. Wouldn't that mean that they're always moving? Isn't moving the opposite of rest?
+--- 21936702
+>>21935043 (OP)
+>turtles
+Why do you think that making up a god creature to make-pretend a fake beginning to "everything", which you admit is fake, is an intelligent thing to do?
+
+Apply the same reasoning elsewhere, to any question. It's rapidly proven to be not only absurd but actually concealing the true chain of events, whatever it may be.
+
+>"I'm the superhero with ALL the superpowers":
+aka yahweh
+--- 21936733
+>>21936492
+I'm still confused by why Aristotle sees this elaborate cosmic system as a "good enough" endpoint for his model. Wasn't he motivated by the fact that every effect has a cause, and that one needed to trace this chain of cause and effect back to a first cause? Now we find ourselves, quite literally, in a circular cause-and-effect system that always existed and somehow caused and is continuing to cause everything else in a (roughly) linear chain of events. It's a bifurcated universe that begs us to continue on and ask to find a complete account of the Unmoved Movers.
+>>21935326
+>>21936508
+>You are conflating mechanical/material ideas of being with ideal and formal ones here again. This isn't forbidden but it's not going to get you a good understanding of the Greeks. 
+>And depending on your perspective, either the highlight or the biggest blunder of the ancient ontological tendency was to explain non-mental nature on analogy with mental features rather than the other way around.
+I greatly appreciate your elaborate and sagacious exposition on Aristotle's philosophy, but I find your ambivalence towards his and the Greek viewpoint unsettling. What are the pros and cons of holding the modern viewpoint vs. the Greek viewpoint? What are you more partial to? Shouldn't philosophy seek to unify the two, given that philosophy seeks to explain the "whole", and that the moderns seem to do at least some things better than the Greeks (e.g. decompose the natural motion of particular objects into universal laws that affect all objects w/ Galileo and Newton).
+--- 21936745
+>>21936733
+the word he uses for "cause" just means "explanation" in greek. It doesn't mean one thing in time effecting another thing in time like Hume and modern people use it.
+--- 21936761
+>>21936745
+What is an explanation meant to reveal if not some underlying phenomena? And doesn't one explanation beget another until we have a complete account?
+--- 21936766
+>>21936666
+The atoms in the billiard ball move around when the ball is at rest but it doesn't affect the billiard game. The phenomena at rest has its own internal world full of action. Aristotle seems to think the orbits of the planets/gods don't have physical causes or effects, they're fundamental eternal states.
+--- 21936804
+>>21936766
+In reality each atom that exists had its high energy particles forced into stable orbits through intense pressure in stars. The energy in the atoms and the energy that moves the planets all originally came from the big bang, it's all part of that ongoing explosion.
+We will continue to account for what was once considered fundamental but the implied point still stands. The nature of our logical models limits them, no matter how much we account for the model will rest on axioms the model does not itself account for.
+--- 21936883
+>>21936761
+Nta, but the Greek word for cause, "aitia", means "cause" in the sense of "that which is responsible" for something being the way it is, and is used in other contexts to mean "guilty", so, for example, Socrates in the Meno says in the beginning that he thinks that Gorgias is "aitia" for Meno’s fellow Thessalians being so wise in being able to answer readily anything one asks, and this is a playful use of ambiguity, since he can either be saying neutrally that Gorgias is the cause or one responsible for this, or is guilty of making them know-it-alls.
+
+For Aristotle, his approach to cause can be worked out through the Organon as a concern over when one might say they know something or not. If there's anything else missing or changeable among the principles and causes, then, if knowledge is of that which is eternal and unchanging, and if there's no end to causal explanation, then there doesn't seem to be knowledge, just striving for knowledge. (I should note that the Organon is very interesting as a kind of key to the other writings, if one tries to work out whether his arguments in his broader writings are demonstrative, dialectical, rhetorical, or sophistical, according to what are apparently his own standards. It should also be observed that he's often open about how many difficulties there are to understanding a given subject, such as in the opening of, I forget which, the Meterology or On the Heavens, and other passages about precision in the Ethics or the aporias in the Metaphysics. In my experience, these asides usually get played down in secondary lit, which makes him seem more confident and dogmatic than he may have been.)
+--- 21936976
+>>21936883
+>and if there's no end to causal explanation, then there doesn't seem to be knowledge,
+This isn't correct, but it is a matter which perplexes society.... logical flaws anyway, like: technically speaking, for instance, we could launch 200,000 nukes at the sun in order to solve the ultimate problem of little Jim not wanting to go to the shops with his Auntie by destabilizing the sun and destroying our solar system. Obviously, however, there are a billion more direct paths to helping out little Jim.
+--- 21937005
+>>21936639
+>Scots were Greek
+>Scots were Jewish
+Here's some esoteric lore: the Scots were Chinese.
+
+>>21936666
+One would think, given that he states that motion is a change in place, but given that they never rest because they're always moving (something that they can do because they are made out of quintessence), they fall into another category. Specifically, Aristotle defines motion, which is a specific case of the more general "literally anything happening" as a potential becoming actual. There thus has to be an end (as in a stopping point) to motion. But the Gods never stop moving, so the potential never actualizes. Ergo, they aren't "really" moving in the way that you or I do (Aristotle believed that the universe had a firm center, so ignore the fact that the Earth is hurtling through space and that we're just in momentum with it). 
+
+>>21936766
+We need to be careful when we say that the Gods don't have physical causes or effects, because 1) it's not entirely clear what happens when sublunar matter touches quintessence, and 2) the Gods are still subjected to Aristotle's Four Causes, they're just in total "harmony" so to say, so it doesn't result in anything that ever "ends".
+--- 21937019
+>>21936976
+I don't think Aristotle would admit that to be an example of having total knowledge, for which, see the end of the first book of the Ethics where he talks about the difference between what kind of accounts you can expect of certain subjects. The basic implication seems to be that there is no wisdom available for politics or most human things, just prudence and what's probable or not, so the Ethics and Politics are largely dialctical and possibly rhetorical works in accord with the Topics and Rhetoric, but nature may be more knowable. (Though, again, he acknowledges many difficulties in the theoretical works, so they might be dialectical according to how hard it is to discover the principles and causes. But I don't think that changes the basic point that knowledge is of universals and their causes, and if one can't know those, then knowledge is unavailable by his standards.)
+--- 21937051
+>>21937005
+>the Scots were Chinese.
+The DNA doesn't lie. Scots with R1a-z284 male haplogroups have direct male ancestors that left the Black Sea 6k years at the earliest, more likely most left 2k years ago when Caesar took Pontus. History according to Snorri Sturluson says the lands of Greeks and Danes were always interconnected by rivers and the two families of gods in Norse mythology came from Asia and Ionia. Asian gods were pastoral and warlike, Ionian were concerned with beauty, knowledge and farming. The big viking raiders came from tribes with a martial history that included fighting under the Huns and probably stretches back to the big bronze age civilizations.
+The revival of the Ionian enlightenment appears to have probably happened in a population of direct male descendants of Ionians.
+--- 21937081
+>>21937019
+No I mean.. it's more like a matter of stopping at one or another cause, in an otherwise near infinite chain of causes, that you can work with; i.e. we can have an ultimate answer for anything and that involves blowing up the sun, but it's not the best answer. That was what I meant by logical fallacies and what happens if a person doesn't understand this point... they're liable to leap to the largest extreme which might be the most obvious to them to solve a specific thing but which involves some massive absurdity that overkills.
+--- 21937087
+>>21937019
+damn, i replied twice and STILL forgot to say this:
+i.e.
+think of it like working in an engineering problem, finding the problem, then tracking backwards through each effect until the primary cause has been located. It could be global climate change, but it's more likely to be a rusty pipe. 
+
+sea wat(er) i mean?
+--- 21937101
+>>21935256
+>Shoupenhauer should have wasted his time asking himself why Aristotle said "I'm not stupid, I'm just acting like I was stupid, tee-hee!" - as if being stupid were different from acting like one.
+--- 21937122
+>>21937087
+I don't really see what you mean but this is a post about pipes and murdering the sun.
+This rusty pipe is only rusty because of increased ocean acidity from rising CO2. The relevant context is still limited to the pipe. You switch out the pipe before you fix CO2 output because you apparently want your ocean water pump to work.
+Blowing up the sun contradicts what most life considers to be in its interest.
+--- 21937168
+>>21937122
+uhh hrmm .. 
+
+Alright, you're kind of there: so, when examining the causes in (this hypothetical) is it more practical to fix the pipe or set about repairing the ocean? Obviously the pipe, and then obviously you can understand the point being made about finding the most direct cause and not needing to be worried about "endless causes", as it's meaningless beyond action or practical use. 
+
+
+BUT the meaningless does serve as an excuse for inactivity, I suggest that this is true cause of the seeming problem in discerning causes which is not a problem at all.
+--- 21937213
+>>21937168
+The goal provides the logical context. When the goal is knowledge you want broader descriptions that encompass more things, you want to understand things like the effect of CO2 on all pipes. The broadest questions are the most important questions that relate to everything. To advance our models we need to study the limits of our methods of modelling.
+This post just seems like a lazy attempt to avoid thinking. If you don't care about the subject then ignore it.
+--- 21937244
+>>21937213
+>if you don't care about the subject
+I'm trying to help you, you rude little idiot.
+
+You're going off on total fantasy into realms of nonsense that lead nowhere and I'm pointing out all practical material science with infinite applications. It's theology: you're too lazy and stupid to grow a potato and you claim to be super intelligent because you "ponder about the beginning of the universe".
+
+That if only that Greek who wanted to buy Aristotle as a sex slave only brought a couple more brass coins with him to market that day. The world would've been spared.
+--- 21937276
+>>21937244
+>I'm trying to help you
+Help me stop thinking?
+>You're going off on total fantasy into realms of nonsense 
+Where? What are you talking about retard? I had to squeeze the point about pipes out of you and it turned out to be "don't think, be a plumber". If I'm misrepresenting you then clarify what the fuck you're talking about.
+>It's theology
+And you believe you don't operate based on any such "theological" premises? How do you operate beyond logic like that with no axioms? Can you teach us mere mortals?
+Why can't I both grow a potato and also think? Why are you so against thinking?
+--- 21937287
+>>21937276
+>Can you teach us mere mortals?
+No, you stay in your endless loop of infinite causes and no activity if you like lol
+--- 21937299
+>>21935062
+So where did the universe come from and what is the cause of experience?
+--- 21937300
+>>21937287
+You decided to tell a vague plumbing story with the point of convincing people to stop thinking about how logic works. Then you accused people that like to think of problems beyond plumbing of being religious and refused to elaborate on any of your incoherent bullshit. These posts are like a black hole of thought, absolute braindeath.
+--- 21937404
+>>21937081
+>>21937087
+>>21937168
+>>21937244
+This is the anon from >>21936883 and >>21937019; I'm not really sure what your thrust is in your two direct responses, but if you were talking about knowledge of practical things, we should clarify the following: in Aristotle's Greek, knowledge = episteme, and this is a very particular view of knowledge, associated with but not exhausted by something like mathematics. For the kind of knowledge you seem to be pointing to, if I understand you, would be encompassed by two terms, techne = art (in the sense of technical skill; in English, think artisan, not artist), and phronesis = prudence. The former is made of up knowing what and how to do things with things, the latter is working out how to deal with variable circumstantial things pertaining to choices (should I get this job or that one? Marry this person or someone else or no one? Say what I really think to this person or withold my thoughts?). For Aristotle, because the objects of techne and prudence are in light of things that change (circumstances generally for prudence; customs and desires guide techne), they don't amount to knowledge in any high sense.
+
+Now, in your argument with the other anon (or anons?), if you're saying this is a kind of theological stance, I would point out that this is a rejection of quite a bit we might consider theological; consider the Euthyphro dilemma: if there were a god or gods who ground the principles of things according to their whim, then insofar as their whims may change, there's no possibility for having knowledge. Aristotle rejects this with Plato, and if his divine prime mover seems too theological, I would point out that it's not providential, and the word "god" for him seems to just mean "cause" or "principle".
+--- 21937873
+okay, Aristotle anons, explain to me, for Aristotle is form imminent or transcendent, if forms are transcendent, how can one have knowledge of transcendent forms through qualic experience, if they are imminent, how can they be universals and not particulars, and if they are imminent and particulars how can they be forms ?
+--- 21937894
+>>21935043 (OP)
+>>BUTTTT causality can't be a chain forever,
+What's interesting is that Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle on this point. Aquinas thought that there was no logical reason why causality couldn't continue into the past forever, only that revelation proved it didn't. (Aquinas did however believe that you couldn't have an infinite hierarchy of immanent causes in the present).
+--- 21938076
+>>21936588
+Bump
+--- 21938087
+>>21935043 (OP)
+>turtles all the way down. not a big fan bu
+Aristotle specifcally says anyone who argues for a infinite regress is an ignoramus

lit/21935207.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,31 @@
+-----
+--- 21935207
+Is there any book that sees >not everyone can reach their dreams 
+...in a positive outlook? Can I have some recommendations? Thank you /lit/ for your intelligence and kind services all this time, it's very valuable.
+--- 21935317
+If everyone got what they wanted you would never experience the joy of the unexpected.
+--- 21935726
+>>21935207 (OP)
+>Is there any book that sees not everyone can reach their dreams 
+>...in a positive outlook?
+Tough one, that would take some heroic amounts of copium. The Myth of Sisyphus maybe?
+--- 21935934
+>>21935726
+It's seems like a tough cope but it also seems... beautiful, like the color blue in nature.
+--- 21935937
+>>21935317
+....
+Interesting take.
+--- 21935947
+>>21935207 (OP)
+Taoism
+--- 21936612
+>>21935207 (OP)
+The short story Young Titans by Nescio.
+--- 21936615
+>>21935207 (OP)
+Monsters University unironically.
+(the young reader's picture book adaptation of course, to stay on topic).
+--- 21936678
+>>21935207 (OP)
+Every and all wisdom literature speak about this. Look into the book of Ecclesiastes