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ROYAL ASSENT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Before we proceed with the next order of business, I beg to inform the House that, in the name of Her Majesty the Queen, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor has been pleased to assent to a certain bill in his chamber."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The following is the title of the bill to which His Honour has assented:",
"An Act respecting a certain Dispute between the York County Board of Education and certain of its Teachers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Order for committee of the whole House."
]
}
] |
March 15, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-15/hansard
|
MUNICIPAL ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Are there any questions, comments or amendments to section 1?",
"Section 1 agreed to.",
"On section 2:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa Centre.",
"Mr. Cassidy moves that section 2 of the bill be amended by adding the following words at the end of paragraph 74a:",
"Provided that no municipality shall enter into such an agreement without a programme of public consultation, including public meetings, on this proposed agreement, and such consultation shall be to the satisfaction of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"I just want to raise a specific point and pursue it. We raised it briefly during the course of the debate and I think that the hon. Minister (Mr. Irvine) in fact misunderstood some of the points that I was making on that particular thing.",
"The minister lives a few miles away from Cornwall and is better aware than I am of the degree of public consultation that is taking place on the presently proposed $14 million plan in Cornwall, and I am willing to take his word for it that it is to the satisfaction of the minister that there has been adequate consultation in that particular area. It is a fait accompli at any rate; the agreement has been signed and it is just a matter of time now before we go ahead.",
"But this bill doesn’t affect only Cornwall. It is not a Cornwall bill, it is a general amendment to the Municipal Act and there will be other communities -- Blind River or Geraldton or Thunder Bay or North Bay or maybe even Pembroke or Smiths Falls -- which will be involved under this particular new set of powers. The purpose of the amendment is to affect them as well.",
"The minister’s reply is that people who wish to comment on the agreement will have the opportunity if a zoning change is involved. However, my concern, and our concern, is that the strategy of development assistance being adopted for that particular municipality should be a subject of public participation or public consultation, and the present state of the law would permit a municipality in fact to go through all of the stages in negotiations with the federal and provincial governments without even letting the municipality know what is happening. That is what the legal state of the law is right now, up to the point where the agreement is signed and the bylaw is passed. It is simply unacceptable in this day and age.",
"If you want to take an example, Mr. Chairman, from the situation at Cornwall, one of the major parts of the programme is a cultural centre and I believe an arena. Now, that’s part of the strategy in order to improve the livability of Cornwall, and therefore make it more attractive to new industries and to management and workers of new industries coming in.",
"Now, it may well be that people in the community have got pretty strong feelings that there are other things that they would put as their priority in improving the livability of the community. It might be a golf course. It might be a tennis court. It might be a sailing club. I don’t know -- it might be something quite different. But at any rate that’s the kind of thing that you need to discuss publicly beforehand rather than getting locked into it with the federal and provincial governments beforehand.",
"In addition, it seems to me that this particular requirement is necessary because of the very pronounced tendency of the federal government to want to work behind closed doors. They just have that tendency. I know that the minister is aware of it.",
"As a resident of Ottawa and as a former observer of the federal government, I am certainly aware of it. And this is without commenting on the fact that the provincial government is, I am afraid, subject to the same tendency, too. So, if you will, the amendment is proposed to protect against these tendencies at the various levels of government who want to work in privacy.",
"Now, in the copy that the minister has -- I am sorry, I seem to have lost the copy for the Liberal Party, I apologize -- I had originally suggested the amendment refer to the details of the proposed agreement, taking the words “the details” out and simply refer to it that on “the proposed agreement, there should be public consultation on the proposals made to the satisfaction of the minister.”",
"Now, if you will, then that becomes a statement of intent. It is up to the minister and the local council to establish whether one public meeting a few weeks before the signing of the agreement is adequate, or whether in fact there should be a series of public meetings and information provided to the public over the period of a year before the signing of an agreement.",
"It probably depends on the nature of the proposals, how radical or revolutionary they are, the amount of investment involved and that kind of thing. But I do hope that the minister will reconsider the points that I made before and will accept this particular amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, in speaking to this amendment, I would encourage the minister to give it some consideration.",
"On this side of the House, we are concerned as I am certain the minister is, with adequate public involvement and consultation before decisions are made that develop areas into a certain way that they cannot be changed. I think that the matters of public concern are most important here.",
"We have seen in the past agreements entered into on occasion wherein knowledge of the local community was not as broad as it should be. And, of course, these are decisions which are going to affect not only the people who are living in the community now, but their sons and daughters and their grandsons and granddaughters. I would encourage the minister to have as much public consultation as is possible in these matters.",
"It seems to me that the signing of these agreements, which are going to involve substantial amounts of public funds, must always be done in such a way that the public interest is adequately served. A good way to serve that public interest is to encourage various groups within the communities to involve themselves in planning, in the making of choices as to the kinds of facilities that can best suit the community -- and of course, then in not only backing the agreements and making their communities better places in which to live, but also being able to feel that they have been part of this consultative process.",
"I would hope that the minister could consider this kind of an amendment. I think it would be a most worthwhile one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"I would like, Mr. Chairman, to speak in favour of the amendment proposed by my colleague from Ottawa Centre. I hearken back to a series of exchanges that I have had with the provincial Treasurer (Mr. White) over a number of months. It was precipitated by the action of the regional development people within his ministry to withdraw their economic support and assistance from the regional development councils across the province. When that took place, about a year and a half ago, it meant that we effectively cut off any kind of advisory capacity, any kind of consultative capacity or any kind of liaison that went with the activities of the various development councils across the province.",
"At that time, since northwestern Ontario had reached the stage where Phase 3 of Design for Development had been accepted as government policy and was to be implemented, there was no local presence for ongoing consultation and dialogue with the regional development branch of the Ministry of Treasury, Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs.",
"It was just about a week ago that the Treasurer saw fit to set up what he referred to as MAC, the municipal advisory committee, which will comprise the heads of councils of all of the northwestern region and will act wholly and solely in an advisory capacity to the minister in his responsibilities for regional and industrial development.",
"Therefore, it looks as though we are going to have a vehicle for that kind of dialogue. I don’t know how effective it will be. Certainly I know that the kind of response the minister had from the northwestern Ontario regional development council was meaningful and very useful; it was a vehicle that everybody in the region could identify with and feel they were a part of. But since the councils were disbanded, a tremendous void has been left. And the person who is solely responsible for the implementation of Design for Development for northwestern Ontario sits in an office in the Frost Building down here. This is the kind of consultation that has gone on since the government disbanded the regional development councils and withdrew any financial support to them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"All I’m saying is that what my colleague is attempting to do here is to provide assurance to people in those regions that they will be given adequate opportunity for consultation before the fact, not after the fact. I’m not aware of the kind of consultation that went on with the council of the city of Cornwall, but I think it’s absolutely essential that we provide this vehicle.",
"The minister has already said that there has been adequate consultation, and before any decisions of this nature are taken in the future there will be complete and adequate consultation with those whose lives are likely to be affected. I see no reason why it couldn’t be incorporated in this bill. And I would hope that the minister, in view of his remarks earlier, would accept this amendment in good faith. It can do no harm, and it can do a lot of good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for St. George."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am rising at this time to support the proposed amendment. Surely one of the things we have learned, or at least we hope the government will learn, is that there has to be adequate consultation with people, particularly in those areas of planning which so vitally affect their lives.",
"In looking at this particular piece of proposed legislation, I was very sorry that once more there seemed to be a thrust away not only from letting the people be aware, but from letting them be a part of the planning process. This is something for which I have stood personally through my whole political career and, of course, this caucus has been pointing it out in all of the regional discussions that have gone on since I’ve been in the House and I’m sure before that time.",
"It is certainly urgent that people once more believe that they are living in a form of democracy which is meaningful, that they are not just left in the position that their only rights are to vote every so many years, whatever they may be, having in mind the government that is relevant to that situation. It has been demonstrated that this is what the people of this province want, and surely, Mr. Chairman, it would be important that we give this kind of emphasis to legislation of this sort which is so important to the people of this province. Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Are there any other comments from hon. members? The minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I recognize full well the importance of public consultation. That’s been the philosophy of this government all along and we’re not denying that by this Act in one small way or one large way, whichever way you want to put it. It’s not denied at all. What we’re saying is that the minister will determine with the local elected people as to how much consultation has been held with the people in the area. I would hope that we agree that the local people that are elected are the ones that should determine how much public consultation is necessary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"In many areas you don’t even have a vehicle. In this case, you’re getting one that’s a municipal council. In many areas you don’t have a legal entity, unless you’ve got an umbrella type of organization."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I recognize what the hon. member is referring to as unorganized territories. If you look at the Throne Speech carefully enough, you’ll notice that we have some plans to look after the areas, where they don’t have local elected representatives, and I expect these will come about in the very near future also."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"It is a matter of choice, isn’t it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Have you been told not to accept anything from the opposition?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Have you got your orders again?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"As far as I’m concerned this amendment doesn’t do anything but what will happen in any event. It’s the usual attempt by the NDP to bring forth an amendment which is not relevant to the whole Act at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"It is the hard-line approach of the government to avoid consultation with the people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"It can only reinforce what you’ve already said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"It is an attempt to say the legislation is not drawn up properly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"You need a little stiffening of the backbone when it comes to public consultation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"I’m saying the legislation is drawn up properly, taking into consideration that we believe in the local elected people making these decisions for their people. We believe, full well, that the minister will recognize whether or not there is full consultation at the local level. I say to the members who have supported this amendment, that it’s redundant and I reject it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"You are redundant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"You make me sick."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Cassidy moves that section 2 of Bill 8 be amended by --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Hold on, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make a comment or two and I have the right to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt)",
"text": [
"Oh, get off it!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"What’s wrong with you? It’s only 12:50. We’ve got a few more minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa Centre has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I just don’t understand it. The minister says that the government, or the minister, will determine with the council the amount of public consultation. That is precisely what the amendment says. I just don’t understand why he rejects it except for the suggestion --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Because it is not necessary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"He doesn’t believe it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"It’s not necessary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"It happens that the opposition party and the New Democratic Party, from our experience on municipal councils and in the way in which governments work in all three levels, do feel that it’s necessary.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"I know you are an expert in everything, but maybe there is a day when you will recognize there’s something you’re not expert in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Oh! I happen to be critic in this particular area and I have a certain amount of knowledge and some experience as well. I have some knowledge about the ways in which municipal councils work. My own council back in Ottawa, for example, did have a rather bad habit of suppressing information and feeling that because they were elected they knew everything and, therefore, they would not let information out to the public that could affect other councils around the province which were dealing with questions of regional development agreements. We simply want to ensure that that doesn’t happen by putting it in this legislation.",
"I would hope, with the minister, that the provision of the amendment is completely redundant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"You are trying to say that these people who are elected should not have anything to do. They should go to everybody and say --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I am trying to say that the process of elected government in the 1970s should involve going back to the electors, the people, on many occasions, whenever there are important things, in order to see what people feel. It may be that the elected representatives listen to the people and then say, “We reject it. We think you are wrong” and they make another decision. Right now the situation left is that they can make a decision and not go back at all to see what the people feel. They have the right or the power to impose a fait accompli."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Just look at the practicalities for once."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Okay. What are the practicalities?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"If you go back to the days when you were elected, maybe you might remember you did consult with some people before you took a certain stand on an issue. If it’s controversial, I am sure, you are going to contact a lot of people. Any responsible local council would do the same and I expect that will be done in the future."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I can cite examples of this Legislature and this government not doing precisely that and I can cite two examples of local councils which meet in camera."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"They meet in camera and reach a decision on a controversial issue and then go into public session merely for the matter of passing the bylaw. The electorate wakes up the next day and finds itself with a fait accompli."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I will give you one example. In the new township -- I can’t remember the name now -- which has taken in Stittsville, Richmond and Goulbourn townships, early in February, the councillors, who had been working very hard on organization, held a closed meeting at which they decided they would increase their salaries from the maximum of about $1,800 paid to the reeve of one of the constituent municipalities prior to 1974, to the figure of about $10,000 for the mayor and $6,000 for the councillors. There were rumors around the community about that but nobody could get any firm information. When the press went to the local clerk-treasurer and said, “What’s happening?” he said, “We can’t find the material.” A month later the issue surfaced when the council in public session simply passed, without comment, a bylaw that brought in those increased salaries."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Certainly that is a matter for the local people to decide."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Okay. In two years or three years they will eventually get to an election when they can, in fact, bring their people into line. There was no consultation beforehand. I learned the local people felt generally that maybe pay levels of about two-thirds of those chosen would be reasonable; it was a very large increase from what had been paid before. It was recognized the previous level was unreasonable but that was never tested by that particular council.",
"There is instance after instance of that happening around the province and we are simply saying “Put it in the legislation.” Let’s hope, with you, that it is not necessary because every council will be so full of good intentions that it will do it anyway, but let’s make sure they do have the consultation that is required."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Those in favour of Mr. Cassidy’s amendment will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion, the “nays” have it.",
"I declare the amendment lost."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Before we let section 2 go I am intrigued by the suggestion by the minister that the $14 million to be spent by the two senior governments and the $4 million to be spent by Cornwall will be and I quote, “the start of an economic boom” for all of eastern Ontario. If that’s the case, where on earth has this government been for the last eight or 10 years when to start an economic boom in eastern Ontario would have cost so little money?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further comments?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, very briefly, let me say this to you and to other members of the House; as far as the people of eastern Ontario are concerned they appreciate very much what this government has done for them and they will show in the next election exactly what they think about the NDP."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further comments or questions on this bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The NDP vote doubled at the last election in Ontario and it will double again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall the bill be reported?",
"Bill 8 reported.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that the committee of the whole House rise and report.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the committee of the whole House begs to report a certain bill without amendments and asks for leave to sit again.",
"Report agreed to."
]
}
] |
March 15, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-15/hansard
|
THIRD READING
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House I would like to say that because of the absence of some members on March 25, I will suggest that we move the consideration of Bill 7, item 4, to the following day, the 26th, and therefore on the 25th we will resume the debate in accordance with item 1.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 1:00 o’clock p.m."
]
}
] |
March 15, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-15/hansard
|
SUMMER EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMME
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. members that the Ontario government will employ close to 18,000 young people this summer. Summer employment in the Ontario government is divided into two parts, the $9 million Ontario Experience ‘74 programme employing some 7,400 young people in 20 special job projects, and the regular summer replacement hiring which will employ more than 10,000 young people.",
"Hon. members have received copies of the Youth Secretariat summer employment information booklet. This booklet represents the first time that all summer opportunities offered by the government have been catalogued in such a manner. It is our intention in producing and distributing this booklet to high schools, colleges, universities and Manpower Centres across Ontario, that young people in the province have as complete information as possible concerning the opportunities available.",
"As a backup to the booklet, an information centre is in operation which young people can call collect, or write to, if they require further information. The number and address of the centre is in the booklet.",
"As hon. members will note in the booklet, the Ontario Youth Secretariat is responsible for the co-ordination of the Ontario Experience ‘74 programme. Through the secretariat, the programme development, budget, evaluation and information functions of Ontario Experience ‘74 are being coordinated.",
"The application procedure and hiring for the Ontario Experience ‘74 programme and for the regular summer replacement positions will be the responsibility of the various ministries and the agencies involved, and I want to emphasize that point.",
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. members to the guidelines we followed in developing the Ontario Experience ‘74 programme. Briefly, these are:",
"Ontario Experience ‘74 jobs must be jobs that need to be done -- jobs that will bring concrete benefits to communities in Ontario jobs that will provide real value for the taxpayers’ dollars.",
"Ontario Experience ‘74 jobs must be tied to local concerns and be administered by agencies that can identify these concerns. Our reliance on existing agencies -- agencies that are involved in their communities on a year-round basis -- provides local supervision and local accountability in every programme.",
"Ontario Experience ‘74 jobs must provide opportunities for worthwhile learning experiences for those employed -- experiences which in many cases will aid young people with career decisions. Many of our programmes will involve young people in fields of interest which we expect will grow significantly in the future and thus offer good potential for future occupations.",
"Ontario Experience ‘74 jobs must provide opportunities for young people to bring their special talents to the work situations, their vitality, their enthusiasms, their training, and their youthful approach. In many programmes, young people will be able to use their own initiatives and ideas in finding new ways to deliver services or in adding new elements to existing programmes.",
"Mr. Speaker, within Ontario Experience ‘74 there are a number of new programmes. The new youth and the arts programme of the Ministry of Colleges and Universities will provide employment with various cultural organizations such as the McMichael Canadian Collection, the Ontario Arts Council, the Art Gallery of Ontario, and public libraries and local museums across this province. Through these agencies young people will be involved in such tasks as cataloguing museum collections of artifacts, acting as research assistants in museum curatorial departments, and providing educational information to the public concerning various art works.",
"The consumer advice programme of the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations will employ young people in a pilot project consumer storefront office. CAP, as we call it, will enable the young people involved to assist consumers in acquiring specific information about goods and services, and also to assist consumers who have encountered problems with retailers, wholesalers and/or manufacturers.",
"The Ministry of Labour, through its labour experience internship programme, will provide placements with labour unions, labour councils, industrial relations units and the like, exposing young people to the field of industrial relations, its role and operation. The construction safety inspection internship under the same programme will give civil engineering and civil technology students invaluable exposure to the provincial construction safety programme.",
"Mr. Speaker, there are a number of other programmes that I could go through, but I want to make the statement as brief as possible. Consideration has been given to an equitable distribution of Ontario Experience ‘74 jobs throughout the province. However, I want to point out that many of our programmes such as SWORD and Youth in Action will stress provision of jobs in areas where there is not a large industrial base to absorb young people into the employment market. We expect to provide in the neighbourhood of 1,600 Ontario Experience ‘74 positions in northern Ontario alone.",
"Consideration has also been given to provision of jobs for both secondary students and university and community college students in the Ontario Experience ‘74 programme. Just over half of the jobs will be available for college and university students. The rest have been designed specifically for secondary students who, because of their shorter summer break, cannot always compete with students from colleges and universities.",
"I should add that the Youth Secretariat has prepared contingency plans, and will monitor the employment situation during the summer. Some of our larger programmes have been designed so that they can be expanded quickly to meet needs that might arise if student unemployment becomes exceptionally high in any specific geographic area of the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"It’s like OFY."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Timbrell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the hon. members will be interested to learn that the secretariat will be co-operating with the federal government in a review of the OFY projects for this year. The secretariat will receive the OFY applications and forward them to the appropriate ministries of the Ontario government for comment. We will collect the comments and return them to Ottawa. It is hoped that this scrutinizing procedure will help us to avoid instances of duplication of services, conflicts between programmes in communities, and the like."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Wasn’t that sent out two weeks ago?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Timbrell",
"text": [
"We are also consulting with the federal government in regard to the design of their evaluation of all of their summer programmes in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Is OFY good now? Or better or second best?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Timbrell",
"text": [
"We are doing this as we are concerned with some aspects of the federal programmes, their accountability, their supervision, the relevance of the experience offered, and the possible creation of dependencies in communities which the communities are not prepared to assume after the summer.",
"We hope to encourage the federal government to take a look at these kinds of concerns this summer, with a view to ironing out some of the difficulties the federal programmes have tended to create for our communities in our province in the past.",
"Mr. Speaker, although Ontario Experience ‘74 is a large programme, it will not employ every young person in the province, nor is that our intention. Most summer employment will be provided by the private sector, and we think that’s the way it should be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"I am sure the government does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Timbrell",
"text": [
"Before I finish, I would like to inform the hon. members that in Ontario Experience ‘74, wherever possible, we will try to employ handicapped persons who might not otherwise be able to find employment. We are asking all of the ministries and all of the agencies to give special consideration to these people. We ourselves will be contacting the special groups and institutions that work with the handicapped to provide them with special assistance in finding employment in our programme.",
"Mr. Speaker, I am looking forward to my involvement with the Ontario Experience ‘74 Programme. I anticipate that the programme will provide rewarding work experience for the many young people in Ontario who will participate in it. I will visit as many of the projects in Ontario Experience ‘74 as I can this summer, and I would hope that when I do, the hon. members who represent the people of those areas will be able to accompany me.",
"In closing, Mr. Speaker, let me assure hon. members that I will strive to carry out my duties as the minister responsible for the Ontario Youth Secretariat as effectively and as productively as my predecessor, now the Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch).",
"Thank you."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
TASK FORCE ON POLICING
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I will be tabling the report of the task force on policing in Ontario. The Solicitor General established the task force in May, 1972, to review the administration, organization and efficiency of police in this province.",
"Under the chairmanship of Edward B. Hale, the task force has conducted an extensive examination of all aspects of policing as they relate to the people of our province. Its membership includes a diverse range of citizens; for example, active police officers of various ranks, a high school principal, a lawyer, municipal politicians and citizens. They were backed up by a professional research team which included specialists in business and criminology.",
"The task force conducted public hearings in 15 different cities in the province. Also, in order to compare policing in Ontario with that in other jurisdictions, task force representatives went to other provinces in Canada, as well as to the United States and Europe."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"How come we didn’t read this in the Globe and Mail this morning?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"The task force received over 200 written submissions at its 14 public and five in camera hearings and, in addition, obtained extension information from interviews and conversations with police officers and citizens from all walks of life.",
"The report covers the analysis and forecast of the extent and nature of policing in the future; the division of responsibility between various forces; the financing of police services; manpower training and development; administration; the function of the Ontario Police Commission, local police commissions and other governing bodies and the relationship between the police and the public. This relationship also becomes the theme of the entire report.",
"The report makes 170 recommendations, Mr. Speaker, which will now be examined by my ministry."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
COMMUNITY-SPONSORED HOUSING PROGRAMME
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to give the members a broad outline of a programme my ministry is introducing to provide assistance to community groups in developing and managing their own housing projects.",
"The programme, which we are calling the Community-Sponsored Housing Programme, is aimed at assisting such groups as non-profit and certain co-operative organizations, as well as housing companies set up and operated by the municipal governments.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The purpose of this new programme is two-fold -- to promote cooperative and non-profit housing generally as another means of producing accommodation for moderate-income earners, and to establish another method of integrating public housing units in the community.:",
"Community-sponsored housing is part of the diverse range of policies already announced, or being developed, within the Housing ministry. The programme will relate closely to two federal amendments made last year to the National Housing Act. While these amendments are most helpful, we in the provincial government feel they do not go far enough, particularly as they relate to persons and families in the lower- and moderate-income ranges.",
"The community groups to be assisted will include people of many income levels and with a wide variety of special interests and goals -- such organizations as service clubs, charitable bodies and those dedicated to aiding the elderly and the disabled.",
"The programme will complement the federal assistance and add to it in basically three ways:",
"1. It will provide grants of up to 10 per cent of the value of the housing projects, to be paid progressively over a 15-year period in order to reduce the mortgage payments.",
"2. It will financially assist in the rent payments of those in the lower- and moderate-income groups through the rent supplement programme. In return for the grants, the community-sponsored groups will provide generally up to 25 per cent of their units for use under the rent supplement programme.",
"3. It will make available ongoing support, in the form of expertise or other assistance, in the areas of both the development and management of housing projects.",
"As well, as a partial or whole alternative to the grants, my ministry is prepared to lease provincial lands, where available, to community-sponsored groups having difficulty finding sites at reasonable cost.",
"Presently, the NHA amendments I referred to provide such assistance as up to $10,000 in startup funds, mortgage loans of up to 100 per cent plus a 10 per cent capital contribution, and grants of up to $2,500 per unit for the rehabilitation of existing housing for use by non-profit groups.",
"When added to this federal assistance, the new Ontario programme will, I believe, result in rent levels which are within the reach of those persons and families needing assistance the most.",
"That is the broad thrust of the programme. There are still certain mechanics and details yet to be worked out and, so that we may complete these in consultation with those who will be closely involved, my ministry -- in conjunction with the federal government, through Central Mortgage and Housing Corp. -- will be hosting a conference on the subject in Toronto on March 25. To this conference we are inviting representatives of the municipalities and many non-profit, charitable and cooperative organizations which are involved or which have indicated a desire to become involved in developing housing of this type.",
"Once we -- and here I refer to the groups and municipalities, the federal government and the Ontario Ministry of Housing -- have finalized these details, it is my intention to get the programme in operation as soon as possible, hopefully in the early part of May. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"The government was saying this 10 years ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"What does the hon. member for St. David (Mrs. Scrivener) say to all of that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Sorry, the member can’t ask her a question."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
ALGONQUIN PARK YOUTH CAMP
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform you and the hon. members of the Legislature that a provincially-sponsored youth camp is to be established in Algonquin Provincial Park, in line with the government’s policy objectives for the park as announced last July.",
"Campers will be recruited from the metropolitan areas of southern Ontario who might not otherwise have the opportunity to share a wilderness camping experience.",
"While the costs of development and the operation of the camp will be borne by the Ministry of Natural Resources, it will be operated on behalf of the ministry by the camping service of the YMCA of Metropolitan Toronto.",
"The camp will initially be designed to accommodate 56 campers in each of four two-week camping periods for boys and girls in the 12-to-16 age group. Fees will be minimal to assist the government in providing this experience for the less advantaged children from urban areas.",
"The camp programme will include normal youth camp activities such as hiking, boating and water sports, but special emphasis will be placed on interpreting the relationship between man and his natural environment in accordance with the objectives of wilderness camping.",
"Arrangements are currently being completed to ensure that the camp is operational for this coming summer camping period.",
"I am sure that all hon. members will join with me in expressing the appreciation of the government to the YMCA of Metropolitan Toronto for the close co-operation and assistance they have given to my ministry in the design and development of this new public camp in Algonquin Provincial Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Is the minister going to recruit all the campers from Toronto?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"No, no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions. The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
SIMCOE COUNTY STEEL PLANT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of the Environment: Is the minister aware of the proposal by Automotive Hardware Ltd. to build a $25 million steel melt shop and rolling mill on the banks of the Nottawasaga River in Essa township, Simcoe county? Has the minister undertaken any studies of the environmental impact of such a plant?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)",
"text": [
"I am not familiar with that in detail, but certainly we will be looking at it. I do appreciate the member bringing it to my attention and I will get some details back to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"A supplementary of the minister: Since Essa township has no official plan, will the minister deal not only with the Treasurer (Mr. White) to ensure that there is no approval given before environmental and planning considerations are done, but will the minister also deal with his colleague the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) to inquire just as to the agricultural value of these lands, which are in lot 22 of concession 6, before any such plans are proceeded with?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Newman",
"text": [
"I certainly will. I will consult with my colleagues on that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Attaboy!"
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
ENVIRONMENTAL HEARING BOARD
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The minister is so cooperative I will ask him another question, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister considering any legal action with respect to Disposal Services Ltd., the firm that has been dumping garbage on a site in Maple since January, even though the site has not as yet been approved by the Environmental Hearing Board?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"This is a very complicated matter. I just happen to have a few facts about it here today, because I thought it might be coming up.",
"This matter is very complex and a provisional certificate of approval was issued which stated that the company had to stop taking waste to the site by August, 1973, since the 43 acres were full. The company appealed this to the Environmental Appeal Board on the basis that the certificate was for 63 acres even though it was currently using only 43 acres. The appeal board ruled that 20 acres was not covered by the certificate and that a hearing by the Environmental Hearing Board would be required with respect to the 20 acres.",
"The company subsequently appealed the decision of the appeal board on a point of law to the courts, and to the minister on a question of fact. The court case is set for April 29, 1974. In the interim period the municipality passed a bylaw prohibiting the use of the 20 acres as a waste disposal site. The hearing board is also considering whether or not the bylaw should apply to the site. The reason we have not stopped this at the present time is because our legislation prevents us doing so in some terms and conditions under certificate of approval until final disposition of the appeal.",
"However, I’ve asked our legal people to get on this and we are looking at several ways in which we may deal with this matter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Since it would appear that the site may well be filled by the time the court case comes up --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is filled already."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"-- what, in fact, is the minister going to do to go along with what the chairman of the Environmental Hearing Board said, which was that this was an illegal use in the first place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"This is what I’m just saying -- we have three alternatives open to us; we can either file an injunction, we can start prosecution or we can put a stop order on it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"Why not put a stop order on it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Our legal people are looking at it. We just don’t want a stop order that they could take to the courts and change in 24 hours. We want to find the best procedure. We would like to stop --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Use one of the other alternatives then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why not use all three at once?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We would like to stop this until the matter is cleared up in the courts. We are very anxious to do this."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)",
"text": [
"Was that free legal advice?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Since the government by its own delays has been directly responsible for the prolongation of this dumping of garbage by an additional 43 weeks beyond that which the town approved, surely the stop order is now the procedure to save whatever is left from further damage?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We will be taking the necessary action within two or three days. We are not going to wait until it gets settled in the courts. We want the dumping there now stopped until this matter has been resolved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"That will be August, 1974."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"No, it won’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Waterloo North."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Thank you. Since the minister’s answer is exactly the same as the answer given by the previous minister last December, will he undertake to change the legislation so that these people can’t make a mockery of the laws and go on dumping and dumping while they continue to appeal?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"First and foremost, it isn’t the same statement because I’ve got --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"It is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"No, it is not. The member didn’t do his reading. We are very much --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"Not the way the minister read it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We are very much concerned about the whole situation. We really want to get at the thing and clean it up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Has the minister been up to look at it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I have been to see some of the sites. I haven’t seen them all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"It is a disgrace."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, would the minister say what he will do if the decision is that that should not have been used? The site is a pollution threat to the area. Is he going to order Disposal Services to remove all that waste they’ve been dumping on the site illegally for the last year and a half?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Give them double their garbage back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"There are appeals on right now. One appeal is directly to the minister and the other is to the courts. Certainly we are concerned about seeing whether this gets cleared up properly in the courts, but in the meantime we want to stop the dumping."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Then issue a stop order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"It is not that simple."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"How is the minister going to have them remove the garbage they’ve already dumped if it is illegal; if it shouldn’t have been dumped?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I think that should be left up to the courts to decide.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"No, there have been five supplementaries now, that is sufficient. The hon. member for Kitchener. Does the hon. member for Kitchener have further questions?"
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
GUARANTY TRUST CO. OF CANADA
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations with respect to the Guaranty Trust Co. of Canada: Further to the laying of certain charges against the company and several of its former officials, can the minister assure the Legislature as a result of his investigations that the company is in a sound financial position and that there is no danger or threat to the public interest as a result of this unfortunate circumstance?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, as the matter is before the courts I wish to pass no comment as to the nature of the particular charges facing that company. I can give the House the assurance that the company is in a very stable condition and, in fact, I am advised it anticipated these charges and has in fact for some time reserved particular funds in anticipation of these charges, which show on their statements."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I have heard of reserves for various other things but I suppose reserves for prosecution are all right too."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
OPERATION OF TRAVEL AGENCIES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"One further question of the minister with respect to Cardinal Travel Ltd.: Has the minister ordered an investigation into this travel agency operation, which has been well publicized, and into the activities and history of Mr. Stan Monday? Is the minister aware of any earlier matters of this sort in which Mr. Monday has been involved?",
"And finally, will the minister as a result of this event, ensure that travel agents and agencies are bonded so that this defrauding of the public by the few who are breaking the law and are a menace to that whole business circumstance can be avoided? Surely let this be the last one of these kinds of things."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"First, Mr. Speaker, up to the present time we have received no complaints over the past number of years in connection with this particular agency. Second, I am not aware of any law, criminal or otherwise, having been breached by this agency. My ministry, when it first learned of it, has worked very closely and has been in consultation with Metro police, who advise that there has been no defalcation but that the travel arrangements fell through because of the inability of the agency to sell all the tickets on certain particular flights.",
"Insofar as bonding is concerned, this is a much more complex situation than just having the person who runs a travel agency go out and get a bond, because the first question is how much of a bond is required. Many of these agencies, when arranging charter flights, particularly on large aircraft, are incurring liabilities ranging anywhere from $200,000 to $500,000, depending on the number of charters that they are arranging.",
"I met with certain travel agents representing two organizations a year ago January, and they suggested themselves that they be bonded and regulated by this government, and I assured them we’d be willing to accommodate them. They attended with their solicitor and I asked them what they proposed to do about bonding, and they went away and they told me that they would come back as soon as they had a presentation in the form of a brief to discuss the matter with me.",
"We have been in touch with them, I believe on two occasions since that time, requesting that they re-attend, and they pointed out various difficulties that they have run into, namely: How much are you bonded for? Is it a varying bond? What happens to those agents who run good, respectable, responsible agencies, have had no difficulties and yet for one reason or another might not be able to be bonded?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Lawyers all pay into the indemnity fund."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Yes, the lawyers all pay into the indemnity fund which is run by the Law Society of Upper Canada, and not through any agency of this government. Unless you had a compensation fund run by the industry itself, with no limits insofar as losses are concerned, then I suggest that there could be situations where a loss could occur and the public interest not be covered.",
"I am further advised with reference to Cardinal that the moneys paid by way of a deposit will, in fact, be returned. The Metro police have advised us of this, but that is the extent of my knowledge insofar as this agency is concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I think the hon. member for Wentworth should have a supplementary now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is the minister saying that he is not moving against these travel agencies until such time as they tell him what they would like to see done? I mean, when is the government going to take the initiative and establish some regulations which are enforceable?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I’d be glad to do that if on my estimates this year the members gave me enough money to regulate travel agencies, television repairmen, housebuilders, and all the like across the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the minister ask us?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"When are we going to get some legislation in the province, then?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Is there no ability in the government to bring forth its own bonding regulations, and can the minister tell us if any of the principals of Cardinal have been involved in similar difficulties within the last half dozen years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Any of the what? I am sorry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Cardinal Travel!."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Principals of Cardinal Travel have been involved in similar difficulties, within say the last six years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I am not aware of any principals of Cardinal having been so involved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Well, what about the first part of the question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Yes; I suppose we could come up with a programme. Again, we would have to establish, I suggest, a compensation fund, presumably paid for and contributed to by the industry itself.",
"Not all members of the travel agency fraternity in this province are in fact members of the two associations with which I met, I believe a year ago January. We would have to bring in legislation involving all travel agents, not necessarily those in the two associations which are in existence.",
"Again, it’s a matter of degree. I think the industry has been, by and large, responsive. There have been those unfortunate situations where people on charters --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Well, like every two weeks there’s another."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Oh, not every two weeks at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Every spring, every spring."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Every spring?",
"I would think that one of the first things we would have to move on is the regulation of their industry. But again the amount of compensation to be paid to any one individual or individuals would vary depending on the number of charters undertaken by each individual agency."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Well, what is holding the minister up?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Those are the mechanics of it. The minister has enough talent in his department to figure that out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"You can’t write a blanket million-dollar coverage on any individual agency. It’s just impossible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Do something."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"It would be a start."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister saying, finally then, that because of what seems to be fairly simple mechanics, which his people have not yet devised, he is washing his hands of a practice which is obviously illegitimate and corrupt for those who experience it? Does he feel no responsibility at all then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Illegitimate and what?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"And corrupt for those who experience it; for those who are stranded, for those who don’t get their money back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I am not going to indict the travel industry and say they are corrupt."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I didn’t indict the travel industry. We are talking about those companies that are specifically involved in reneging on formal undertakings."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"And it happens every single year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Those people pay their money and don’t get the services they pay for."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York-Forest Hill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"Having said all that he has, is the minister giving us any assurance that these 285 students who have been held up will either get their money returned to the tune of $370 apiece, or in the alternative that they will be able to take trips with alternate airlines? Is he doing anything about either of those questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Use the government aircraft."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"No, I am not arranging alternate trips for them, but I am advised through Metro police that their funds will be returned in their entirety."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"When?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"A certain amount of the funds, I understand, left Canada to book accommodation in Europe. Those funds will not be used and are to be returned. The other funds lie the hands of the travel agents, I am advised again by my officials after consulting with the Metro police, are in the process or have in fact been returned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The minister could perhaps invite them to visit the Legislature next week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Some consumer protection branch!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, is the minister not aware that in certain cases Swissair has advised that the money is to be frozen in Europe and that only a portion will be returned? Is the minister aware of that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"No, I am not aware that Swissair made any statement other than the one reported in the press, wherein they said they had worked in harmony and cooperated with this agency for some period of time and that the arrangement had been amicable both ways. I’m not aware of the statement to which the member refers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Peterborough."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. M. Turner (Peterborough)",
"text": [
"I wonder if the minister is aware that not only children from the Toronto area are involved, but in fact people from a very large area of Ontario are involved?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Even including Niagara."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Including the Hansard staff."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Now he has got to do something."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Turner",
"text": [
"The minister has stated that the Metro police have told him the money is to be returned to the Toronto people. How about the people living outside the Metro area?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister should get his mind shifted to something outside Metro."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I heard the first part of the member’s question, to which the answer is yes. I didn’t hear any of the second part of his question, unless he was just having a discussion with me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Turner",
"text": [
"I’ll speak a little louder."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Turner",
"text": [
"Is the minister aware that the problem is not limited to the Toronto area but in fact children from all over Ontario are affected? He has stated he has had assurance from the Metro police that the money for the Metro children apparently is going to be returned. Has he any such assurance for the children living outside of the Metro area?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"No, I am sorry. I hope I didn’t indicate that the police indicated to our officials that only the Metro children were going to get their money back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Turner",
"text": [
"The minister mentioned 285."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"No, I think the Metro police indicated to my officials that all the people involved in the Cardinal arrangement were going to get their money back, and they didn’t designate those who came from inside or outside of Metro."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Crossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"Can they do that through the member?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I have no further questions, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
ENVIRONMENTAL HEARING BOARD
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Environment first.",
"He has had before him for some considerable time an application from Disposal Services Ltd. to go before the Environmental Hearing Board, on the approval of the ministry, for an additional 900-acre site in Vaughan township, not far from their present continuing violation. What has the minister done with that request?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"A hearing has been set up for that particular area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"All right. Section 35 of the Environmental Protection Act says: “Where a bylaw of a municipality affects the location or operation of a proposed waste disposal site [and the minister will know that the bylaw in this case forbids such a site] the minister, upon the application of the person applying for a certificate of approval for the waste disposal site, may, by a notice in writing, and on such terms and conditions as he may direct, require the hearing board to hold a public hearing to consider [the application].” Given the record of Disposal Services, whose garbage dumping the minister is going to have to stop by court order, why did he recommend that they have a hearing to use yet another 900 acres in Vaughan township? What has the minister got against Vaughan township? Or, more important, what is it between the minister and Disposal Services?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Garbage!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Nonsense!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"It is quite obvious from the hon. member’s question that he knows them a lot better than I do. I don’t know them at all. Certainly they have made an application and there will be a hearing on a site that large, and the hon. member is quite aware of the fact that the 20-acre site we are dealing with now is just a preliminary to what is to come."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But surely, by way of supplementary, since it is on ministerial authority that the hearing is granted at all, given their behaviour in Vaughan township, which the minister is resorting to court action to stop, he should say to them, “No, you may not have a hearing -- no more garbage from Disposal Services in Vaughan township,” Why this special privilege for them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Newman",
"text": [
"There is no special privilege. Anyone can ask for a hearing with the Environmental Hearing Board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But it is within the minister’s prerogative."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"Why is he granting it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why is he granting it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We will grant a hearing to anyone who requests a hearing, so that the people can have a chance to have an input."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But it contradicts the bylaw."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Would it not be within reason for the minister to delay any consideration of a further hearing until the first hearing has been dispensed with completely? I do not understand why the minister says he will consider giving a hearing to anyone at all. Surely he will not grant a hearing to those who the minister himself considers are flagrantly breaking the law?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Well, as far as environmental hearings are concerned, applications are being made and we are hearing them in many areas of the province, and we will continue to hear them on the basis that people will have a chance to participate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"One last supplementary: This isn’t just an application for a hearing in the way in which the minister replied. This is an application for a hearing to break an existing bylaw. That is why they have to come to the minister. Now why does he grant them the right to go to a hearing? That’s why the clause says “may” rather than “shall.” Why does the minister grant them the right to the hearing to break yet another law in Vaughan township?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Why not say no in the first place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Say no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Is the hon. member talking about the bylaw they passed on the present 20-acre site?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, I am talking about the use of the present 900-acre site."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Why consider a hearing when they are using another site for an illegal purpose?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the minister say he doesn’t know?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I am not really sure of that. I will look into it and get back to the hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York North."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)",
"text": [
"What is the position of Vaughan township council on this? Have they approved of the site?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"How could they have? They have a bylaw."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister can violate their bylaw, but they can’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"Has the minister had any direction from Vaughan township council?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They are opposed to it; they have been opposed to it throughout."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"It is my understanding that they approved of the site a year ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, they didn’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"There have been many approvals of many sites and, of course, there have been withdrawals and changes because of the reaction of people; that is one reason we have these hearings, so people have the right to express their views and to be heard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: What steps has the minister taken to provide for other sites or means of disposal of the garbage that is now being handled by Disposal Services? Has any alternative been developed by the ministry so that we don’t have to rely upon that company for the disposal of industrial garbage from the Metro area?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Disposal of their garbage is their responsibility, not ours, as far as Disposal Services are concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"The ministry has to take some leadership."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Is the minister aware that in St. Louis they are handling 8,000 tons a day and they are making money on their garbage recycling?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I am aware there are many plants throughout the world. The technology in our ministry is aware of all these things throughout the world."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"The ministry has done nothing about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We have so. We have two or three --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Meet me in St. Louis."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
ALGONQUIN FOREST AUTHORITY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources, if I could, Mr. Speaker. I take it that the minister will shortly be introducing legislation to enact the Algonquin Forest Authority that was referred to some months ago?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
COMMUNITY-SPONSORED HOUSING PROGRAMME
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you. I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Housing. How much money has he specifically set aside for the additional support to co-op and non-profit housing of which he spoke today; and how many units is that likely to provide of housing as yet unanticipated?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have set aside in our estimates an amount which we consider to be adequate, approximately $4 million worth of cash flow this year, based on the applications and the interest which has been shown in the programme. I can’t specifically tell the hon. member the number of units, since obviously it will depend on the number of projects which fall within our criteria. However, we do feel that the programme that we have established and which will be announced specifically in due course will be adequate to meet the needs."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Does the minister agree that $4 million will purchase about 250 units; and does he consider that 250 units in 1974 is an adequate alternative fostered by the government to the present private enterprise development going ahead in housing?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t think the hon. member listened to our statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He never does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The $4 million is our cash flow payment for this year. What we have said we would do is underwrite 10 per cent of the total cost of these projects. The $4 million is the amount, and that will be spread over 15 years. The $4 million that we are setting aside this year is sufficient to handle the project for 1974 and 1975. If additional funds are required, if the demands are greater, obviously we will have to take a look at that at that time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A further supplementary: Perhaps the minister can be explicit and say how many units he intends to be begun in 1974 as co-op or non-profit housing, and does he consider that that total is an adequate number?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I just answered that question. I think it was quite clear in my statement that this programme would be developed following consultation with the interested parties, including the federal government, on March 25 on the basis of preliminary inquiries."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, when the minister says on the basis of preliminary inquiries he arrived at $4 million, what does his preliminary figure for number of units lead him to? He didn’t just pull -- maybe he did, in his ministry it’s possible -- it out of the air, or maybe that’s what he thought he could write off at the end of the budget next year rather than use money. Where did he get it from?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there is no specific number of projects. I am satisfied that the $4 million will meet the need of those projects which meet the criteria that we have set down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
NOISE REGULATIONS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"One last question of the Minister of the Environment: Where are the legendary noise regulations about which we have heard from time to time for the last four years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"That’s a very good question. The present noise regulations are still under discussion with the new minister. We are looking at them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Is there a new minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Since 1955, isn’t it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We are still looking at it. I can’t give the member a firm date on it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Revenue has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
TAX CREDIT INFORMATION CENTRE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to reply to a question asked of me yesterday by the hon. member for York-Forest Hill on the administrative cost of the Ontario tax credit programme.",
"The estimated cost to my ministry, as I am advised, for this system is $148,000. This consists of $88,000 for equipment, telephones, postage and miscellaneous items, and approximately $60,000 for contract staff hired to handle public inquiries.",
"Regular civil service staff in my ministry are also involved, of course, in administering the tax credit centre in varying degrees, in addition to their normal responsibilities.",
"I might add, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for Ottawa East (Mr. Roy) requested the name of the advertising agency which we’ve retained for the purpose. That agency is F. H. Hayhurst and Co. Ltd."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"We can’t kick there, because it’s cheaper than the drainage committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Housing also has the answer to a question asked previously.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
RESALE OF HOME PROGRAMME HOUSES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The member wouldn’t want me to ignore these questions, would he? I have the answer to a question asked on Tuesday by the hon. member for Wentworth. The question was: Is the minister aware of the practice whereby HOME houses built not six months ago are reselling at twice the price?",
"Under the terms of the HOME plan, houses built on OHC’s leased lots may not be resold during the first five years of the lease without OHC’s approval of the sale price. This requirement is designed to curb speculation of these homes, the very speculation which the hon, member brought to my attention. When calculating the resale price of a HOME plan house, OHC allows the owner an increment in value of approximately $500 per year over the original house price, plus the value of any improvements he may have made, and his real estate fees if he is selling the house through a real estate broker.",
"We would approve a modest increase in the price of a house built six months ago but would not approve the sale at double the price.",
"Mr. Speaker, my ministry is aware and OHC is aware of a certain number of practices which are taking place to evade the provisions of the HOME programme, and we are now studying means to plug every loophole we can possibly ascertain. The hon. member has offered to give me more information later on. We would certainly like to look into individual cases to see how they meet the solutions we’re thinking about at the present time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary question, if I may: Is the minister and the ministry considering making it mandatory that the resale be back to HOME during the first two or three years of the home’s life, in order to ensure that this kind of speculative practice, which we both know is being undertaken, is curbed and stopped?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is one of the possible alternatives we’re looking at."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"It’s already in effect."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Waterloo North with a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Would the minister consider legislation so that when municipalities enter into agreement with private builders this same practice could not continue, whereby builders, in good faith, sell the homes which are built on smaller substandard lots, and before the houses are even lived in, realtors and other speculators are selling them for $5,000, $6,000, $7,000 or $10,000 more than they paid for them just a few days or a week before? This is going on in municipalities and there’s nothing, evidently, the municipalities can do about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would think the municipalities have the power in their agreements --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"They don’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- to curb that type of speculation. Certainly my ministry is interested in curbing it. I’ll certainly take a look at it to see if we have the powers to enter into those kinds of arrangements."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, what powers has a municipality to control selling prices of houses unless it owns the lots and the houses?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"That’s the problem -- it hasn’t any powers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Presumably, the municipalities have entered -- as I understand the hon. member’s supplementary -- into agreements with developers to do certain things within the municipalities. In those agreements, I would assume, they have the power to make certain conditions on the transfer of the agreement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No such powers.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Huron-Bruce is next."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My minister has just disappeared so I’ll defer for a moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wellington South."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)",
"text": [
"No.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
EFFECT OF VETERANS’ SERVICE IX CALCULATING PENSION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Premier. Does the Premier recall my question in the last session, in regard to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I apologize to the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville. I recognized the hon. member on his feet because I saw him first."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Yes, that’s all right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"I’m smaller, too!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Don’t fight, fellows!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"And louder, too!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Does the Premier recall my question to him in regard to allowing those people who served either in World War II or the Korean war to use their years of military service toward their pensions in the Province of Ontario? Is he prepared to bring in legislation in this session to deal with that matter?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I do recall the question and as a result of the question we are undertaking certain studies and there will be some information due fairly shortly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Yes, good idea."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
EFFLUENT FROM BELLEVILLE GENERAL HOSPITAL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: Since he was away yesterday I’ll give him a three part one for today. Have his officials informed him of the coliform reading done six weeks ago of the effluent from the Belleville General Hospital into the Bay of Quinte? Does the minister feel that a coliform count in access of 100,000 is dangerous? And if the minister does agree it is dangerous, what is the minister doing about the health hazard to the people living in that area of eastern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the suspense of waiting whilst the member was trying to be recognized before the end of the question period really has upset me greatly and therefore I will find it difficult to answer his question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Just answer the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"However, I would wonder whether the coliform --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He doesn’t stay very long, you know, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"No, he doesn’t. I was going to suggest that my presence as Minister of Health has done wonders for his attendance in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"His leader isn’t happy though. His leader isn’t happy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The Minister of Health must have worked on that for weeks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Don’t waste the question period."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"He doesn’t know the answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I suppose the question is whether it’s Ecoli or not, whether it’s an Ecoli coliform or what other type. I would think that any high coliform count deserves special attention and while I haven’t seen this particular report, I’m sure the member will get a complete answer from me, as he has on all previous questions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker: If this particular report has not been brought to the minister’s attention, has it been brought to his attention that this same hospital has had previous very high counts and that this is a continuing problem?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville is next. There are five other members of the Liberal Party. I will call them in turn if there is time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You don’t have to apologize to me at any time for not calling me. I would prefer to be called but, if you don’t, I accept your decision."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"The Minister of Energy prefers to be chosen."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"Many are called but few are chosen."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY PENSIONS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. In the recent negotiations between the UAW and the various automotive companies certain pension increases were granted to pensioners -- certain adjustments were made. Why is the ministry holding up the payment of these pension increases?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, under the Pension Benefits Act a deferred annuity paid to an employee terminating employment other than by way of retirement must be equal to that paid to a person who is retiring at the same time with the same amount of service. That is mandatory under two sections of the Act.",
"The proposed automotive industry pension scheme that we’re talking about does not in fact permit that, but would discriminate against those employees who are 45 years of age or over, have 10 years of service and are not retiring, but terminating their employment.",
"The legislation, therefore, says the two must be the same; the plan does not contemplate that. The pension commission has drawn that specifically to the attention of, I think it’s three major motor companies, as well as to the trade union involved and we’re presently waiting to hear back from those respective recipients of that information.",
"The pension commission says, in essence, that the legislation does not distinguish between the two types of people whereas the proposed plan does and, therefore, it’s not consistent with the legislation. They’re waiting to hear back from, I think it’s Ford, GM, Chrysler and the union."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Right. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could not the ministry approve the pension payments to the senior citizens who have retired, rather than hold that portion up, and withhold payment to those who are in the 45-and-over bracket?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can appreciate the member’s concern. The pension commission, under the legislation, either has to approve the plan or not approve it. We cannot approve portions of it and not others. There are the two interests to be served under the legislation and presumably that is why it was drafted that way, to protect the terminating employee as well as the retiring employee. We are hopeful that it can be worked out.",
"The discussions and communications between the pension commission and the automobile industries and the union involved have been, I am advised, quite close and harmonious and I am quite confident that it can be worked out. We are anxious to see it worked out in the light of our present legislation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
CONSERVATION OF ENERGY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Premier regarding the conservation of energy: In view of the fact that automobiles on average consume 30.5 per cent more fuel at 70 mph than at 50 mph --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I am listening."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"-- and in view of the fact that the cabinet does not wish to legislate compulsory speed reductions on our freeways, would the Premier consider recommending that what might be called information signs be placed at intervals along our major highways giving such a reminder, in order to encourage motorists to conserve energy by reducing fuel consumption voluntarily?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It will only happen if the Premier signs them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we had a very comprehensive programme just a few months ago developed by the Minister of Energy related to the conservation of energy, both in terms of reduced speed, turning out electric lights, and many other aspects."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Putting on our sweaters, remember that one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I don’t think that was necessarily part of that particular programme, although it may have been."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Difficult to sort out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"But I can only assume from the hon. member that if we were to continue such a programme of public information, not just related to the use of automobiles and the consumption of gas, but energy generally, the members opposite would have no objection to any expenditure of funds for such an information programme. I am delighted to hear that and we will pursue it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"As long as the Premier’s name is on the signs."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Are they going to put the Premier’s name on the bottom of every sign?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Huron-Bruce."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
JUDGEMENT AGAINST MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food, if I could catch his attention over in the corner there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"A question of urgent public importance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"Because of the judgement plus costs awarded today against the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food in the Hartman raspberry case --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Against the minister personally too?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"-- and because the Ontario taxpayers are going to have to pay for this mistake, could the minister tell me if there have been any changes in personnel at the Vineland research institute by way of resignations or firings, and what does the minister intend to do to see that this doesn’t reoccur?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"And don’t give him the raspberry either!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice. I am obviously getting the raspberry today and I would like to be able to learn about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That is a change."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sudbury East."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
PRICE DIFFERENCES IN SEARS CATALOGUE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Has his ministry finished the investigation into the pricing policies of Sears catalogues, which we presented to him, which indicated they were ripping off the people of northern Ontario in comparison to selling prices between Windsor and Sudbury?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I think the question was raised by the member’s leader in the last session, referring to Sears having different pricing on the same type of article in different geographic areas."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It is one of the studies the ministry is doing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"No. The president of that particular company, when we communicated with him, advised that certain articles sold by that company did in fact bear a price differential, but not all articles sold by that company. I drew to his attention the two matters that had been drawn to my attention by the NDP leader -- I think it was some kind of a drill or something -- that bore a $10 or $9 difference, and he said that that was one of the articles that bore the difference. Then he pointed out that there were other articles that had no other difference. So it is marketing policies of each individual company."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Pretty keen fellow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I am told that most major companies selling throughout the province have certain zones where prices remain the same within that zone, and beyond that there is a price differential on certain articles."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Does the minister think that is right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"What accounts for this price differential of articles, where some of those differentials are as high as $25 or $30? The usual argument is freight rates, but in fact it has nothing to do with freight rates or costs. What is this extra little tidbit we have the privilege of paying for in the north?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I am advised that it does depend on transportation, additional handling, market demand and other factors."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Does the minister believe that? Try listening to the defenders of the north over there. What a fatuous claim that was."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"How can a man of the minister’s intelligence say something like that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Lanark."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
BRUCELLOSIS COMPENSATION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. J. Wiseman (Lanark)",
"text": [
"I understand the Minister of Agriculture and Food met with his counterpart recently in Ottawa and one of the topics discussed was the compensation paid to farmers for the loss of cattle due to the dreaded disease of brucellosis. I wonder if he can tell us, so that we can inform our farmers, if any additional compensation will be forthcoming, and also if they discussed at that time the possibility of putting back the compulsory vaccination of these cattle and maybe cutting out the disease again?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the discussions are going on concerning the improvement in the compensation for animals condemned. I don’t think any decision has been reached yet by the federal government on that matter, but I understand they feel that there should be an increase. It hasn’t been announced.",
"With regard to whether vaccination should be reinstated, there doesn’t seem to be any clear opinion on it yet, the reason being, among other things, that there are several countries which refuse to accept breeding stock from countries where that vaccination is used, simply because the vaccination could infect the animal, be taken over into another country, and because it is a live vaccine there could be problems in spreading the disease. This has interfered with the export market, which is a very important part of the agricultural industry of this province.",
"So they are trying to weigh the matter of whether it is better to do it one way or the other. My guess is that since the disease seems to be confined to relatively few farms and is under control on those premises, it is most likely that the process of blood testing and elimination of reactors will likely be pursued, rather than to do that and then embark on a wholesale campaign of vaccination of female calves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Energy --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wiseman",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. If there is a supplementary I’ll permit it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wiseman",
"text": [
"Yes, I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder, if the minister’s federal counterpart doesn’t come through with an increase in the compensation payment, if a farmer happens to lose a number of animals -- and I am thinking of the dairy people now, where a good milking replacement is probably in the neighbourhood of $1,000, and the compensation plus the cost recovered from the sale for meat only comes up to a little over half, or a little better than that, the cost of a replacement animal -- would we consider helping those farmers in view of the fact we are trying to build up our milk production in eastern Ontario and across Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is an interesting proposal, and I would like to suggest that we explore the possibilities of providing that assistance through the industrial milk production incentive programme, which is a 20 per cent forgivable programme over five years, giving the farmer the right to repay it over the five years with a government guarantee at the bank and 20 per cent forgivable at the end of the five-year period.",
"That would be one way that it could be done. I’m not sure whether the terms of reference of that programme would cover the point the hon. member for Lanark raises, but to me it would. I’d like to explore those possibilities."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
ONTARIO HYDRO EMPLOYMENT POLICY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy: I would like to ask him about the hiring policy of Hydro, as I understand it now discriminates against anyone having a criminal record, such as impaired driving or possession of marijuana. Will the minister find out why an employee who was fired last week was rehired when I threatened to bring it up in the Legislature? He had a charge against him two or three years ago for possession of marijuana. He was rehired at the direction of head office within a few hours after I received the information about his firing. Will the minister find out how widespread this practice is? Of the thousands of employees, is the security check this strict for everyone; or how does it work?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The question period has now expired.",
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Hon. Mr. Kerr presented the final report of the task force on policing in Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"Where did the minister get that title from?",
"Hon. Mr. Auld tabled the report of the Ontario Heritage Foundation for the period ending March 31, 1973."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"This is shocking -- “The Public Are the Police.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Robert Peel said that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Robert Peel was a Tory."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
REGIONAL MUNICIPALITIES AMENDMENT ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this bill will allow regional municipalities to obtain any outstanding approvals needed for bylaws initiated by the local municipalities that they have replaced."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
TERRITORIAL DIVISION ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is necessary to amend the Territorial Division Act to provide for changes which have resulted from the establishment of new regional municipalities and from some recent annexations and amalgamations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, under this particular order, a week Monday we are going to be dealing with a private member’s bill. It being the turn of a government backbencher to introduce one, I understand that a bill is to be introduced by the member for Scarborough Centre (Mr. Drea). However, we don’t have that bill as yet, and unless it is going to be introduced sooner, it may be difficult to debate that bill in the private members’ hour on Monday immediately that we are back.",
"Will the bill be introduced tomorrow, and if so, can a draft of the bill be made available to us in the opposition so that we can be prepared to debate that bill? It would be a great convenience if it could be done then rather than on the day itself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)",
"text": [
"Perhaps I could comment, Mr. Speaker. The bill is expected to be introduced tomorrow morning. It’ll be printed in the usual fashion and available to all members next week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Well, that’s fine. That’s great."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Yes. We’ll get it over to the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The second order, House in committee of the whole."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
YORK COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION TEACHERS DISPUTE ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"There are seven sections in Bill 12. Are there any comments, questions or amendments on section 1?",
"The member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, before section 1, I think there should be some comments made on and some adjustments made to the preamble of the bill.",
"The preamble, Mr. Chairman, makes mention in lines six and seven, “whereas the secondary school students of York county have been severely disadvantaged.” I question the use of the word “severely.” They may have been disadvantaged but not necessarily all “severely disadvantaged.” I think that the minister is a little too strong in the wording in the bill, and that the word “severely” should be struck out.",
"Also, in line 10 of the bill where it starts with “of students, requires that all teachers return to the classroom.” All teachers are not necessarily in the classroom, Mr. Chairman, and as a result I think a better substitution in there would be that “all teachers return to their duties.”",
"Mr. B. Newman moves that in line seven the word “severely” be struck out and that in line 10 the words “the classroom” be struck out and the words “their duties” be substituted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I would be willing to accept the second part of that, “Their duties.” I would not be willing to remove the word “severely”, because it merely echoes the sentiments in hundreds of letters and communications we’ve had from many people over the last couple of weeks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Would that be agreeable to the mover?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I really think that “severely” is too harsh. Not everyone necessarily was severely handicapped as a result of this. Some of the students --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)",
"text": [
"Everyone was handicapped."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"-- attending the schools in York county may have been only taking two or three courses. If the minister insists that they have been severely handicapped as a result of the dispute, then I don’t think he is being fair with them -- handicapped, that’s right, but not necessarily severely handicapped.",
"Likewise, a student may take Mickey Mouse courses. I’m not saying that it does happen, but it can happen. And if a student in the taking of a Mickey Mouse course missed 30 days of school, I don’t think he was severely handicapped. He may have been handicapped, though."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"On the preamble, Mr. Chairman, are you going to put something further in connection with my colleague’s motion?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Well, I am just waiting to get the feeling. It’s a double motion right now. If only one is going to be accepted --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Do you want to put this motion or do you want to discuss the preamble in its entirety? I want to make a short comment in connection with the preamble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"You might discuss it. Will your discussion include the points that were raised?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"No, I am not going to elaborate on my colleague’s points. I want to ask the minister a question in connection with the preamble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Well, let’s clarify the amendments before us, shall we?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Yes, all right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further comments on that particular amendment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"On the motion?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I’d like to speak in favour of the first part of the motion -- that is, to strike the word “severely” from the preamble.",
"I think that one of the things that became apparent to any close observer of the York county situation in the last 10 days, particularly, was that the newspaper interviews with students and television interviews with parents and students were, in fact, extremely touching. I think they showed the confusion of the parents and of the students about the educational system of the province.",
"What became clear in those interviews, and probably in the letters that the minister quite rightly says that he has received, is that these people had a very unfortunate view of what education is in this province. Somehow in this province we have convinced people that education must take place in the classroom and in the classroom alone, and that unless they have the framework of the classroom and the framework of daily attention by their teachers students are somehow severely disadvantaged.",
"While I believe that the critic of the Liberal Party in education has a very valid point here, there may have been some disadvantagement take place. In fact, I am sure that with a number of borderline students this happened. But to say in this provocative way -- and it is provocative -- that the secondary school students of York county have been severely disadvantaged for approximately six weeks, is unnecessary.",
"I put it to the minister that in all reality the rest of the bill, given his conservative Tory framework of thinking, is basically a fairly well drafted bill. To make it provocative in terms of the teachers with this particular phrase, I think is unnecessary and I would ask him to withdraw it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does the minister have any comment on that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister would agree to the changing of the word “severely.” Where it comes in, have it read “some severely,” after the word “disadvantaged.” Certainly there are some who have been severely disadvantaged, but where this clause refers to the secondary school students -- in the case of my grade 9 son, I don’t consider him as having been severely disadvantaged. There is no question he was disadvantaged during this period. I think the case is well made.",
"If the minister does want to talk about those who have been severely disadvantaged, certainly those who are in grade 13, and grade 12, and many others who have decided to drop out because of this experience have perhaps been severely disadvantaged; but I think that we shouldn’t flaunt the situation in such a way as to say that everybody has been put in that spot. It is not necessary. It’s only preamble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I want to go a little further with the minister, I don’t think we need a preamble at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Oh, yes we do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I don’t know of any reason why there should be a preamble to this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I am entitled to speak against having the preamble in the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Well, we are dealing with certain words in the preamble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That’s fine. If we strike those words we can go on and strike them all. There is nothing troublesome about that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"He is moving to strike out the whole thing. That is all right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Sarnia asked to speak generally on the preamble as well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Was the member for Sarnia going to speak against having it at all?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I just want to ask a question; that’s all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Okay. Well he didn’t want to speak on the preamble, he just wanted to ask a question.",
"I was looking at other bills. It is not the practice of the House to have a preamble in the bill. This is unusual. There are a number of other bills already before us, numbering up to 10 and there is not a preamble in any of them. What we have in a bill is an explanatory note. In every bill the explanatory note explains the reason for the bill and the content of the bill.",
"I just don’t happen to think that we need enshrined in the legislation of this province the government’s reasons for implementing this legislation. Those are already on the record of Hansard. Frankly, I don’t believe that there is a place in a bill for the government’s opinion as to why it needs a particular piece of legislation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"An apologia."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"We don’t have to have a long story about the reasons why the minister failed to observe his responsibilities and to carry them out. We don’t need the minister’s opinion as to why he had to bring in the legislation. If he wants to put that in, he puts that on the record of Hansard. If he wants to explain in the explanatory note the background of the bill, he may do so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"He wants to apologize."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"But the practice of a preamble is not a practice that is followed in this Legislature with any consistency. It is, in fact, a departure from the normal procedure and I would simply say to the chairman that this preamble should be struck in its entirety.",
"The bill, as it is drafted, from section 1 on dealing with the definition of the sections and on through to the final section of the bill, will stand on its own merits. It doesn’t need a government story to try and satisfy what will no doubt at some point in the future be the legitimate questions that are asked about the reasons why we found it necessary to pass such legislation. I think the government is on the record in Hansard. It is certainly on the record in public terms about its feelings in regard to this dispute. The opposition is likewise on the record about its feelings with regard to the lack of government integrity and action.",
"I think the whole preamble should be struck."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Well, we will put the question in a few moments as to whether it should stand as part of the bill. Is the mover of the original motion willing to accept the adaptation or modification as proposed by his colleague, the member for York North, so that it would read then --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I would be willing to accept the words, say, “and whereas secondary students of York county” and change it “to return to their duties” instead of “to the classroom.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall this motion then carry as proposed and discussed?",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I want to ask a question of the minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, if I may: The word “all,” is that an appropriate word? You say, “requires that all teachers return to their duties” and yet your statute doesn’t compel all the teachers to return to their duties. I would like you to resolve that problem in my mind. Section 2 doesn’t compel all the teachers to return to their duties."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"It is only those who withdrew their services."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Is the hon. member suggesting that there should be some further explanation in there that rather than have all teachers -- he is quite right, there is an exception in section 2."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am going to be quite frank in saying that I am not making any suggestions to you at all. I am purely asking the question because when I read that all teachers had to return to the classroom and I look at section 2, subsection (2), which says that they don’t all have to return to the classroom, there’s obviously a conflict. There’s a conflict between the preamble and the statute itself and then you go on to the final section which renders to a Supreme Court judge the duty to assess the propriety of return or not.",
"I think you are inviting problems in putting the word “all” in there. I suggest most respectfully that you consider taking the word “all” out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"All right. How about “the teachers who withdrew their services”?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Why don’t you --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That’s not covered either, because subsection (2) says: “Nothing in this Act precludes a teacher from not resuming his employment with the board for reasons of health or by mutual consent in writing of the teacher and the board.” So that one who has withdrawn his services might be well entitled not to return under that subsection."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I don’t have any objection to taking “all” out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Take which out?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Take the whole preamble out?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"No, no, not the whole preamble. It would read “... the interests of students, require that teachers return to their duties. ...”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Would the change be acceptable then?",
"Agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The word “all” is being removed, is that right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Eliminated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Now, shall the preamble then stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Well, I want to say this to you, if I may, supporting somewhat what was said by the hon. member for Wentworth. Although I disagree on the point that this is unusual, I think in special Acts really, you will find many special Acts meeting special sets of circumstances that in the recital to the Act itself refer to the circumstances which led to the statute, but I say to you that you are inviting disaster, frankly, in the preamble itself.",
"You would be much better advised, I presume to tell you -- you say in the last sentence: “and that means be found for the settlement of all matters in dispute between the board and its teachers.” This statute isn’t going to do that. The statute can’t possibly settle all matters in dispute between the board and its teachers. It’s impossible for it so to do. It doesn’t contemplate that it would do such."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Well, Mr. Chairman, it contemplates settling those matters that are in dispute in this particular contract dispute and that they will be settled finally by what it says here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That isn’t what the preamble says."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, would the minister then add the words “all matters in dispute that have caused the dispute between the board and its teachers”?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"But it doesn’t do that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Take your preamble out, Tom. It’s a mess!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Would it assist if we changed “all matters” to “the matters”?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That would help."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I would be willing to do that. It would then read: “... the settlement of the matters in dispute between the board and its teachers.” Is that agreeable?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is it agreeable to insert the word “the” instead of the word “all” in line 11?",
"Agreed.",
"Shall the preamble, as amended, stand as part of the bill?",
"Those in favour of the preamble, as amended, standing as part of the bill, will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it.",
"On section 1:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any comment, question or amendment on section 1 of the bill?",
"Section 1 agreed to.",
"On section 2:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur.",
"Mr. Foulds moves that the words “first normal school” be added in clause 2(1), in line three, after the words “shall on the” and before the word “day,” so that the clause would read: “The teachers who withdrew their services as a result of submitting resignations effective on Jan. 31, 1974, shall, on the first normal school day following the day this Act comes into force, resume their employment with the board -- “"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"One of the things that occurs to me, Mr. Chairman, is that if the Act passes with the wording of that clause as it is, say on Friday, that would require the teachers to go back to school on Saturday. And if the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"That’s not a normal school day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Well, I know. That’s why I included the words “first normal school day,” because the bill says simply, “... on the day following ...” and doesn’t define “day” anywhere in the bill as a school day. I think that would cover any ambiguity that might arise, should the bill pass tomorrow, say, or after midnight tonight or whenever. It’s a technicality."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think the hon. member is quite right, but I think that if he reads the bill, he actually would be perhaps not doing a disservice to the teachers, because the bill says they shall “resume their employment ...”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"Yes. That’s right. Their day doesn’t start -- the day isn’t until a school day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"That means that if the bill receives royal assent tomorrow, say, they’ll resume their employment Saturday. But, of course, they won’t be teaching Saturday; indeed, unless that board arranges something special which I haven’t heard about, they will not be there for the mid-winter break, yet they will become employees of the board on Saturday --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"-- and resume their employment. But, of course, they won’t teach until the normal teaching days begin."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Could I then ask a question of clarification? If they become employees of the board on Saturday, say, are there other provisions in the Schools Administration Act or the Ministry of Education Act, or are there regulations set out, outlining the days in which school shall be taught, so that unless a special agreement between both parties and the ministry were signed, the board could not force them back on the weekend or during the March break?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"That’s quite right. The board is operating under a modified school year plan, which they have filed with our regional office. That plan sets out what are the instructional days and so forth, and the York county board, at the present time, has filed a school year plan that includes next week as the mid-winter break."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I see."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"But it also includes that the schools will not be open on Saturdays and Sundays."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"If the minister can give the House that assurance I will withdraw the amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes, no problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall the amendment be withdrawn then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few comments concerning this. I hesitated a bit to support the member for Thunder Bay --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Port Arthur.",
"Mr. B. Newman -- Port Arthur, I’m sorry -- because I thought that if the board and the teachers possibly agreed to use next week as an instructional week that decision should be left to them. I would hate to prevent the resumption of school next week if it is the wish of both parties to go back to the classrooms and try to catch up in this fashion. I would think it would be admirable on the part of both the teachers and the board if that was their wish."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I withdraw the motion, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"This would allow exactly what the hon. member has indicated. I hope, though, that it would not be just the board and the teachers but it would be the board, the teachers and the students and their parents because they are, to a degree, involved with the mid-winter break, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is there anything further on section 1? I’m sorry, section 2?",
"Shall section 2 stand as part of the bill?",
"Section 2 agreed to.",
"On section 3:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The minister has an amendment to subsection (13). Is there anything before subsection (13)?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I have a question on subsection (3)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is there anything before subsection (3)?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"I have a question on subsection (3)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I want simply to ask whether the wording in subsection (3) might not be changed in the third last line in which it says, “but shall give full opportunity to the board and the negotiators for the teachers.” Shouldn’t it say, “give full opportunity to the negotiators for the board and the teachers to present ...?” In other words, surely you’re not saying that the board, in its entirely, can make representation but the teachers’ negotiators are the only ones who can speak for them? You’re talking about, in fact, the negotiating committees of each party being given the full opportunity for discussion and representation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think there’s probably merit in what the hon. member said. My legal advisers tell me that the board is a corporation and that is what is inferred here by board with a capital B -- the corporation of the York County Board of Education -- and, of course, they will be represented by counsel or whoever they want. In this case, there is no official legal entity representing the teachers, I suppose, unless we put in the OSSTF as representing the teachers of district 11."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"All right, but do you understand what I’m saying?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"That would probably be other wording that could be put in there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I’m sorry, I did want to deal with subsection (1)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"We can come back to that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Okay."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Did the member for Windsor-Walkerville have something on this section?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Yes, I wanted to ask for an explanation from the minister of subsection (3), the fifth and sixth lines. I’ll read the paragraph so he can explain what it means: “The board of arbitration constituted under this section upon receipt of a notice referred to in subsection (1) shall examine into and decide all matters that are in dispute between the board and the teachers as evidenced by the notices referred to in subsection 1 [This is what I would like an explanation of] and other matters that appear to the board of arbitration to be necessary to be decided in order to make an award.”",
"I wonder if, in that clause or portion of a clause, one of the items that is being considered is that a teacher has two times in a year at which he is to submit his resignation; that is at the end of November and at the end of May. If the board of arbitration takes the normal length of time to resolve the differences, this would be some time possibly in late June, maybe in July. In the meantime the teacher who wanted to submit his or her resignation legally on May 30 might be left hanging.",
"I wonder if the minister can clarify the meaning of those fifth and sixth lines?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, that’s a common phrase for anything put in in arbitration procedures. It’s merely to allow for anything that the board may decide on. They are not likely to be major things but some other thing that may not quite be within the list they have been given but they need to decide on it, or they have been asked to decide on it as they carried on their discussions and listened to presentations about the case. I don’t think it has anything to do with what the hon. member is talking about, about resignation dates or things like that. The teachers who would be back in the classroom now and back working for that board would be perfectly free to exercise their option to resign as of May 31, effective Aug. 31. There is nothing that would stop them from doing that, even if an arbitration board had not brought down a settlement, because they are back and their individual contracts are reinstated and the collective bargaining contract under which they had been working will be in effect until the new award is brought down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Could the minister maybe give an example of some item that could be included under “other matters,” so as to clarify this a little more for me?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"May I ask a question on the same line? Does the minister have in mind, where the board in order to make an award might have to vary other clauses in the contract which had not been brought up as contentious items, but have to vary them in order to make them comply with the terms of the item that is being changed? Is that what he is talking about?",
"Let me put it another way. If there was in the contract a provision dealing with a particular method of distributing statutory holidays, but that method was unworkable in conjunction with a method to be arrived at for distributing vacations, the board would have the power to vary the one in order to make the other work. Is that what the minister is saying?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I am not a lawyer and I am perhaps at some disadvantage in being able to give you a legal interpretation of this. But that sounds like a reasonable kind of explanation to me. I can’t give the hon. member any example of this. I just understand that in some of the arbitration agreements that have gone forward in the last few years it has been felt that there should be some clause such as this in order not to bind any arbitration board that found it wanted to do something like that, but immediately found that one side or the other was taken to court. There should be a clause so that they could in fact bring down something in their award to take care of some of these things."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if I might speak to this --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Have we finished subsection (3) then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I would like to speak to this particular point and then revert to subsection (1). Mr. Chairman, I too am not a lawyer, but I have had a bit of experience in teaching. It may be, for example, in the York county situation that headship and responsibility allowances are applied to the arbitration board and the number of total periods that a teacher might teach would be submitted to the arbitration board for an award, but specifically there might not be submitted on either side the number of periods that a department head has to teach, which should in most circumstances be somewhat lower. In considering the whole situation, the arbitration board might find that the allowances were covered or the period for normal or classroom teachers were covered, but if those department headships were not submitted specifically, they would feel free to make an award if that came up during the submissions by either side to the arbitration board. For that reason, I would think that I would very much hope that these words would remain in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection (3) stand as part of the bill then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I would like to return to subsection (1), Mr. Chairman, before we get to that, if I may. We in this party will move, if we can rally enough troops -- and I will talk for as long as we can get the troops -- that subsection (1) be struck from the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"You don’t have to make a motion. Just vote against it then, when I ask if it will stand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Could I request that subsection (1) be dealt with specifically, because it is the heart of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"That is what we are dealing with now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I would like, therefore, Mr. Chairman, to speak against the inclusion of subsection (1) of section 3 of the bill. This clause is the essence of the bill. This is the clause that forces compulsory arbitration in the dispute. Both opposition parties argued for six hours yesterday in the vein that we oppose compulsory arbitration to the settlement of this dispute. We have suggested alternatives that the minister could take. The Liberals have suggested one which we don’t endorse and we have suggested another route. But there were alternatives that could have been taken.",
"We simply find, Mr. Chairman, that compulsory arbitration is an abhorrent principle, as my colleague from Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) said in his brilliant if short speech last night, that we oppose it in every situation --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please; it seems that this subsection embodies the very principle of the bill which was passed last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"And we are prepared to vote against it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"And we are going to vote against it on this reading, on the clause by clause."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"You opposed it last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"You are quite right; you are absolutely bang on, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"It is the whole principle of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Subsection (1) embodies the whole principle of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"You can’t speak on the principle in general again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I’m speaking specifically on this clause and I’m speaking specifically on the words “submit to final and binding arbitration under this Act.” It is the word “submit” that we on this side, or in this small section on this side of the House, find abhorrent. Actually it is fairly large -- two thirds of this side.",
"Arbitration, and submission thereto by the affected parties, is by its very nature -- and I use the word cautiously but advisedly dictatorial. It is ironic, of course, that the most self-righteous paper in Ontario, the Toronto Globe and Mail, has emblazoned on its masthead words of Junius: “The subject who is truly loyal to the chief magistrate will neither advise nor consent to arbitrary measures.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"Such as compulsory arbitration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"And compulsory arbitration, by definition, is an arbitrary measure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"It’s true; it’s a brilliant speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"If short.",
"We as legislators on this side of the House simply cannot advise the chief magistrate of the province, in this case it is the Lieutenant Governor, to proclaim arbitrary measures. We would not feel in conscience that we could continue as legislators in this House if we allowed this section of the bill to pass without a vote."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mark you, that has nothing to do with either Junius or the Globe and Mail."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I wish you hadn’t pointed that out to the chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"No, I meant from our point of view."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"If the clause had contained a possibility for binding arbitration that had voluntarily been agreed to by the parties, we would have had no difficulty with it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"There would be no bill in those circumstances."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"But the fact that it is compulsory and the fact that it makes teachers and the board submit to arbitrary legislation, for those reasons we simply cannot support it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Well said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, we intend to oppose this bill. We made our comments concerning compulsory arbitration on second reading of the bill. In the clause by clause study we will definitely take a stand and carry out our responsibilities by voting against it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further comment on subsection (1)? I will put the question.",
"Those in favour of subsection (1) of section 3 standing as part of the bill will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it.",
"May we stack it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"No, no!",
"The committee divided on the question of having subsection (1) of section 3 stand as a part of the bill, which was approved on the following vote."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the “ayes” are 61, the “nays” are 31."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I declare the subsection stands as part of the bill.",
"Subsection (1) of section 3 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"We have discussed subsections (1) and (3); are there any further subsections before subsection 13?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Which one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Subsection (2)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"No. 2. All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I have an amendment to subsection (2), Mr. Chairman.",
"Mr. Foulds moves that the following words be added to subsection (2) of section 3: “and that the award on the pupil-teacher ratio shall not be above the provincial average.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, one of the contentious issues in the dispute in York county has been, of course, the pupil-teacher ratio. It is admirable that, given the passage of subsection (1), the minister has spelled out clearly in the bill that the ratio is arbitrable.",
"What I am attempting to do here is to ensure that the award is such that the pupil-teacher ratio in York county will not go above the ratio of the provincial average.",
"It may be somewhat confusing, but because it is a pupil-teacher ratio -- i.e. 17.4 to 1, or 17 to 1 -- it looks in the wording as if it is favourable to the board. In fact it is favourable to the teachers. That would be the base award that they would receive. That is, the pupil-teacher ratio could fall below 17.4 or 16.9 to 1 -- whatever the provincial average is -- meaning there would be fewer pupils per teacher in that county.",
"Now, it is in line with the principle the minister has already established in the bill when he appended the salary schedule as an appendix to the bill. That is the floor below which the arbitrator cannot go. The same intention is applied here -- and I think importantly applied here. It’s a floor below which the arbitrator cannot award in favour of the teachers. I think that as the minister took the pains to establish such a floor in salary, which was not the most contentious issue in York county, it is important and significant that this Legislature include a clause that supplies a floor for the most contentious issue in the county. With that, Mr. Chairman, I would ask the minister to accept the amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"I was there wondering if there is such a thing as a provincial pupil-teacher ratio. To me it seems difficult to establish that, really, and I don’t think the ministry has one. I agree with the idea, the concepts, that the member has presented; but the ramifications of it, I think, are insurmountable.",
"If you get into a system in which a lot of academic subjects only are taught, the pupil-teacher ratio increases considerably. In other words, in an English class it’s nothing to have 30, 35 even, in some schools 40 in a class to one teacher. But if you get into a technical school, you may have only four students to a teacher. You are trying to equate the two and I think it’s difficult. I think it would be better if you said that the pupil-teacher ratio at the academic level would be a given ratio and in the technical level it would be another ratio. That would sound a little more reasonable to me.",
"Generally, the technical shops don’t have more than 20 students per teacher. There are only 20 desks available or 20 machines or 20 typewriters or 20 pieces of equipment so you could not have more than 20.",
"I am not saying that some school boards don’t have more than 20 students so that the students have to share a piece of equipment. It’s nothing unusual, when you get into the grade 11 or grade 12 programme, when the students are in their last specializing year in auto mechanics or in machine shop or even in sheet metal, to have as few as four in the class.",
"When you turn around and put down the number of students in that class for the teacher, you can see that makes a substantial difference. You take a machine shop teacher with only four and an English teacher with 35, add the two together and there are 39 students being taken care of by two teachers. You immediately say that each teacher has 20 pupils he has to take care of.",
"That may be true, but you are talking about apples and oranges. The one teacher still has too heavy a load by having 35 in the class, whereas the other teacher, I don’t say he has too light a load, but with only four or five students each student gets individual attention and each student is able to learn to the maximum of his potential.",
"I like the idea of the student-teacher ratio; but I think it would be better if it were broken up into an academic student-teacher ratio, and a second group would be, possibly, a commercial student-teacher ratio; and then a technical student-teacher ratio. To take all three -- commercial, academic and technical -- and find one ratio for all three I think is a little too complicated and really not fair to the academic teacher."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, in fact, the pupil-teacher ratio is computed on two bases, one for academic and one for non-academic students. It is not our job to make the award and the arbitrator would still be free --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"We are not trying to make the award. He is not trying to make the award at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"The arbitrator would still be free, Mr. Chairman, to make an award, as has been submitted and partly negotiated by both parties in the York county dispute already, about the pupil-teacher ratio vis-à-vis non-academic students and vis-à-vis the academic student.",
"The principle is the important thing here. We are not defining the award. What we are simply saying is that the award cannot fall below the provincial average. The arbitrator can and will interpret it as a provincial average for the academic classes and for the non-academic classes, because both sides are going to submit to him those categories. They have been talking about that in negotiations and no doubt they will be making those presentations to the arbitrator.",
"The pupil-teacher ratio is simply a base from which you work. The pupil-teacher ratio basically has nothing to do with class size. The class size can be another item or can be worked into the contract. The number of pupils a teacher must teach can also be worked into the award by the arbitrator, but it is the pupil-teacher ratio that is simply the base figure, the base camp from which you scale Everest so to speak."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, certainly the ministry or this government has never felt there should be a provincially, centrally-dictated pupil-teacher ratio. In conformity with our belief in the local autonomy of the board -- something which I know members opposite hold in jest many times, but which really is there to a much greater degree than they really think, and which is something which we really believe in -- and in keeping with that belief this is a matter that it is up to the local people to decide.",
"I have stated very categorically that I personally believe, and we believe, that it is an item for negotiation. We are asserting here in this particular case, the dispute between the York county teachers and their board, since it is an outstanding matter in the dispute, that it is a matter for arbitration in this arbitration. But I think it would be unwise and not in keeping with our general policy to put in any level, floor or any suggestion of any provincial direction in this regard.",
"So, Mr. Chairman, I would reject that amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if I may speak to what the minister has said; wow, is he dragging a red herring across the issue! The Ministry of Education in fact publishes the statistics in its annual report which indicate an average for the province of the pupil-teacher ratio. It is not a question of dictation across the province; it is not a question of local autonomy; it is a question of finding in York county that they do not get worse learning conditions for their kids in York county than they get for the average board across this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I am very sure that this case will be argued very fully before the arbitrator. I don’t think that we need any levels put in there to guide him. The whole case will be argued before him by both the teachers and the board.",
"Certainly we publish the provincial averages, just as we publish statistics of all sort, averages and provincial figures for all the boards. It is part of the statistical service, but it doesn’t suggest that we say that that provincial average is perfect or that it is too high or too low. This is something that the school board, if you accept as I do that it is a negotiable item, in each local jurisdiction should work out for itself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"I would think that the teachers in their wisdom in negotiating would certainly present very strong arguments on their own behalf. I don’t think we should tie the hands of the arbitrator and say he must come down to this level. I think that is one of the items they will agree among themselves about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"There is a problem, Mr. Chairman. Obviously whatever the arbitrator in this dispute comes down with it is going to have an influence on the future of arbitrations and negotiations. I think the very fact that the Ministry of Education sees fit to include a statistic called pupil-teacher ratio in its annual report is sufficient evidence in itself to show that the ministry considers it to be an item of some importance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"We include salaries but we don’t suggest everyone has the average salary in the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Nor are we suggesting everyone have the average pupil-teacher ratio. You have in fact suggested in the bill what the base salary should be as far as the arbitration is concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Based on the offer made by one of the parties."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That’s absolutely right. You have said in the bill they should not consider an award of a salary less than the schedule set out on page 5 of the bill. This particular arbitration is going to be a milestone in the negotiation process in education. It’s also going to be a reference point for future boards of arbitration. The minister intends that all teacher disputes be settled by arbitration. The minister intends to bring in a bill that will make binding arbitration the last resort in all teacher disputes.",
"Therefore, it’s necessary in this dispute to be sure that whatever conclusions are reached are satisfactory and can be referred to satisfactorily by future arbitrators. I don’t think the minister would expect -- nor would I for that matter -- that an arbitrator would come in with an award in this dispute which would exceed the provincial average or for that matter with an award which might even be higher than the existing pupil-teacher ratio.",
"It’s a possibility -- it’s not likely but it’s a possibility -- that the arbitrator could consider making an award in which the pupil-teacher ratio is higher than that which currently exists within the school jurisdiction. The arguments by the board might lend themselves to that kind of a conclusion at this particular time; and it’s possible, though not probable, that that then could result in a change in pupil-teacher ratios right across the province as they become negotiable and arbitrable in all future negotiations.",
"Frankly, I don’t see why the minister wouldn’t agree that the statistics that his own department have come up with have set out a pupil-teacher ratio which, if not satisfactory to everyone, is at least bordering on being satisfactory with regard to the ratio of pupils to teachers in the province for all of the boards. He should then say that the pupil-teacher ratio as it exists in the technical or commercial end, and as it exists in the academic end of the Province of Ontario, as reported in the statistics of the Ministry of Education, shall be the base above which no award shall be made.",
"I don’t understand why you wouldn’t do that to make sure that we do get off on the right foot in this arbitration and ensure that the arbitration will be satisfactory and acceptable to the teachers in the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for York Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I certainly feel that the arbitrator should not be bound by this. I know the ratio at the time the teachers walked out in York was 17.1, which was well below the provincial average, but at the same time --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"The provincial average is 16.9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Well, I was given to understand by the teacher representatives at a meeting the other night that in fact the provincial average was 17.4. I may have been misled, but in any event I don’t think we should be telling the arbitrators here what to do and I think the fact that it is being arbitrated is the key issue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Ready for the question then?",
"Those in favour of Mr. Foulds’ motion will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion, the “nays” have it.",
"I declare the motion lost and subsection (2) carried.",
"We discussed subsection (3).",
"Anything on subsection (4)? If not, the member for Windsor-Walkerville on subsection (5)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Chairman, subsection (4), not subsection (5), is the one I really wanted to talk on; and it concerns the appointment of the arbitrator where both sides are unable to agree as to who should be the third arbitrator in the dispute.",
"Over the past series of months and so forth, we’ve come upon situations in which teachers have not had any confidence in the boards, the teachers have not had much confidence in the ministry, and as a result a lot of hard feelings have developed. You talk with them and they say: “We will appoint one of the arbitrators; the board will appoint the second. We can’t agree on the third so the ministry is going to appoint the other arbitrator. The ministry is taking sides right away. The ministry is going to come along and appoint one who is favourable to the board.” That is how some of the teachers have interpreted the appointment by the ministry.",
"To allay all their fears, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move an amendment, an addition to subsection 4, so that the ministry will appoint an individual, or may appoint an individual who, in the eyes of both the board and the teachers, is absolutely impartial. My suggestion is that added to the end of the paragraph in subsection (4) be the words “who shall be a Justice of the Supreme Court of Ontario.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Could I ask if it is the intent of the hon. member’s amendment that the person the minister appoints should be a Justice of the Supreme Court of Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"If necessary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes, if --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"No, no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Yes, if necessary. If the parties agree on it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"You mean if the parties don’t agree? Yes. If the parties don’t agree."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. B. Newman, Windsor-Walkerville, moves that section 3, subsection (4), be amended by adding thereto, --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"I think that is the last thing you want."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)",
"text": [
"Don’t you fellows ever get together and discuss these things?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"-- the words “who shall be a Justice of the Supreme Court of Ontario.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"With some considerable reluctance I have got to say I don’t agree."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Why are you reluctant to say it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Because I’d like to agree.",
"But I really don’t agree with appointing people from the judiciary to settle matters of arbitration in labour disputes. I think, first of all, it’s better to seek someone who has some knowledge of the field than it is to seek out a person who may well be a good judge --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"The member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"-- but who quite frankly, may have absolutely no knowledge of the field."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Get your map of learning and start looking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I’m not as worried about the appointment of the chairman --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I’m not even as worried about the outcome of the awards, strangely enough. I would prefer to leave it as it is than to have someone appointed from the judiciary to sit as the chairman of the arbitration.",
"The only question I have is -- I’m not at all clear about the section, if I might just ask -- it does not specifically say there must be a third person. That’s what I’m not sure about in the section. It says: The two persons appointed under subsection 4 shall, within seven days after they have been appointed, appoint a person to act as chairman.”",
"I would have thought it should have said, “appoint a third person to act as chairman,” as opposed to “they may appoint,’’ just to be clear that there has to be another person on the board.",
"I always understood, by the way, that the board would have been defined as “a board of arbitration comprised of a representative of each party and a third person who shall act as chairman.” I thought that would have been a section in the Act by the way; it isn’t in the Act. It doesn’t really spell out what the board of arbitration shall be comprised of in the way of numbers of people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I’m reading this, I think the hon. member really meant this to be an addition to subsection (5), on the appointment of a chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Really, I wanted the appointment of the chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Yes. That is subsection (5). We’re really talking about subsection (5), the appointment of the chairman. Does the minister have any comments?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think, Mr. Chairman, that I would prefer to leave subsection 4 the way it is. I listened with great interest to the comments of my friend from Forest Hill yesterday, who I think made some very good points about arbitrators, although he didn’t agree with the arbitration process.",
"I think he mentioned that we’d have a very difficult job finding people and some of the other members said they should be people with special expertise in the field. While certainly Justices of the Supreme Court of Ontario have great expertise in a lot of things, it may be that they may not be completely the proper persons for this kind of arbitration.",
"Also, it may be that they may not be able to serve. It is my understanding that there is a general feeling that they should not be taken away from their duties on the bench and given these other duties at this particular time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"You don’t see them perform adjudicative services anymore. But they’re called upon to do extra work. I want to speak to this matter. I want to support the motion wholeheartedly.",
"You fail to understand a part of the problem when you talk about expertise residing in the chairman. It isn’t expertise we want. It’s a truly objective representation of the public interest on that board. That’s all we want. That’s all my colleague is attempting to show.",
"We don’t want anybody in this House or any group of teachers or any group of trustees or anyone to be able to say, as is happening in CSAO now, that the government has injected itself into the truly reciprocal equation of this board. This is the type of legislation none of us want. You don’t on that side, and we don’t surely on this side.",
"That’s why my colleague puts that forward because it’s known, recognized and appreciated by the public at large that members of the judiciary by the very oath of their office undertake their function in a truly objective fashion. Aside from that, is the fact that we know that they go in tabula rasa. They don’t know about it, and better so that they do.",
"They are the chairman of that board and they will have the assistance and aid of two colleagues on the board of arbitration, one representing the point of view perhaps of the teachers and one representing the point of view of the trustees. Subject to some comments I want to make about the Statutory Powers Procedure Act, the chairman will have the ability to assess the evidence and come to a conclusion.",
"I think the amendment is an extremely worthwhile amendment. I don’t know why you turn away from it, because it really assists you in the future. It assists you now in being able to say to yourself that never in the future will you be accused as the minister of showing any partiality whatever, because you invite that type of comment if you rely solely on the expertise of the chairman rather than on the public recognition of the true objectivity of the chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for York-Forest Hill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the minister may have heard me remark to my colleague here that probably the last thing you would want is to appoint a judge. Right here you really get at the nub of the point that I was trying to make last night, that after weeks and weeks of negotiating and the hassle that’s been going on and the mess that’s developed, where are you going to get three impartial people? Three impartial people who are so wise, so sagacious, so knowledgeable, so expert, so perceptive, so Solomonic that they’re going to cut this Gordian knot -- let alone the baby, the student, that they’re struggling with between them -- who haven’t had an input into this matter already.",
"You can’t find such people; I defy you to do so. You’re going to have to pick people, but you’re not going to be able to find people with that 100 per cent degree of objectivity that you’re striving for and which my colleague is striving to get.",
"We know in labour relations in the past labour had objected to people with a legalized training taking part. They don’t like lawyers. They don’t like judges, because the tendency for lawyers, and some of my best friends are lawyers, and I’m one of them --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"You’re your own best friend."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"His only best friend."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Don’t walk out on me now. This is the first time I’ve had you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"After that line, I’ll be right back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The tendency for lawyers is to strictly construe language and to strictly construe laws. We were all through this discussion last night where we were agreed that you’re dealing in a field of human relations and that you cannot confine strictly what’s in the parameters of any given language, no matter how well hewn your language is, in any given piece of legislation. This is what makes it so tough. You’re up against the velvet right now with respect to this aspect of compulsory arbitration, which I defy you or anybody else to solve. This is why compulsory arbitration, in my opinion, is basically wrong; because you cannot find these Solomonic people.",
"Maybe you’ll bring one in from Alaska or British Columbia or from somewhere outside the jurisdiction. It isn’t possible today to think of anybody, and I don’t care whether he’s a judge or anybody else, who has that kind of impartiality and objectivity, who hasn’t formed some kind of an opinion, either consciously, or subconsciously or subliminally on this particular question who lives in the community known as the Province of Ontario. Everybody has got an opinion.",
"I suppose that you can argue that a Supreme Court judge, because of his training and background, is likely to be the most objective person that you can find. Maybe you can argue that, but I dismiss the idea that you can even get a Supreme Court judge today whose mind is completely and totally a blank like an empty blackboard on the subject. This is not possible at all. This is why you are having this trouble.",
"In retrospect, having made that remark at the beginning to my colleague, that he would be the last guy I’d pick, I suppose that this is the kind of person to pick, compared with picking a businessman, a bank manager, the Lieutenant Governor of the province, another cabinet minister, or whomever. I suppose a Supreme Court judge is more likely to be the most objective person. But I rule out objectivity and impartiality completely. This is why I consider the principle of compulsory arbitration wrong, particularly in this particular case."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Those in favour of Mr. Newman’s motion will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “nays” have it. I declare the motion lost.",
"That was to subsection 5, was it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Then subsections (4) and (5) are carried.",
"Is there anything before subsection (13)? If so, which subsection."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Subsection (9)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Subsection (8)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Anything before subsection (8)?",
"Mr. B. Newman moves that section 3(8) be amended by adding thereto the words “who shall be a justice of the Supreme Court of Ontario.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"I won’t repeat the entire argument this time, but it is exactly the same argument as that under subsection (5); that is where the chairman is not agreed upon, that he shall be a justice of the Supreme Court of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further discussion?",
"Those in favour of Mr. Newman’s motion will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “nays” have it. I declare the motion lost."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On subsection (9)?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I just want to ask a question of the minister.",
"In providing in subsection (9) for the use of powers under those sections of the Statutory Powers Procedure Act, are you content through your advisers that the provision in section 4 of the Act, to the effect that the dispute may be concluded without a hearing would obviate the necessity of a hearing? Or are you satisfied with the words contained in section 3(3), the negotiators for the teachers and the board will have an ability to present evidence and make submissions? I just want to make sure that we are not going to have an in camera session here.",
"Perhaps I might just say this: Under the Statutory Powers Procedure Act the tribunal, as you know, can conclude without a hearing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes, right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The Act also says, “... subject to the provisions of the particular statute,” which we are talking about in Bill 12. You provide for the presentation of evidence and the ability to submit argument. I take it that your intention is that notwithstanding the provisions of the Statutory Powers Procedure Act that say there can be a conclusion without a hearing, that there is going to be a hearing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Certainly, Mr. Chairman. I intend that there be a hearing, and certainly it is the intent in this bill that there be a hearing. If my friend, who is a lawyer, feels that section 4 of this Statutory Powers Procedure Act causes any problem in this regard -- again, as a layman, reading it over quickly, I am not sure why section 4 has to apply in this particular case -- but if he is worried, I would be willing to delete that unless there is some particular reason. I see why the other sections of the Statutory Powers Procedure Act need to be here for certain protections and so forth, but I am not sure about section 4."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I see the need for the application of section 4, because the parties might by consent come to a conclusion without the necessity of holding extensive hearings and thereby saving public funds and that would constitute an award. I’m content with that. I am now content that you have voiced publicly that it is your intention that there be a public hearing in connection with the submissions to be made to the board of arbitration. I think that satisfies me entirely right now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does subsection (9) then stand as part of the bill? Agreed.",
"Any comments, questions or amendments on a later subsection, before subsection (13)? The member for Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I just wanted to ask a question for clarification on subsection (10). I assume that means that the award made by the arbitrator cannot therefore be appealed to a court. Is that the intention of subsection (10) -- that the award made by the arbitrator in this case will be final and binding and there can be no appeal to the court? That’s the reason? Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection (10) stand? Subsection (11); subsection (12)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Subsection (12)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. minister -- oh, is there something?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Do you have an amendment to 12?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"No, 13."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"If you have comments on 12 you may make them now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I once again want a point of information on this. Could the minister inform the House if any items had been agreed to by the board and the teacher negotiators up to this point? Or did they withdraw all the tentative offers that they talked about when the teachers withdrew their services?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I really can’t answer that for the hon. member, because of course we don’t know until each put in their list, as is provided for in an earlier section of this bill. They will each put in what they feel are the items still in dispute and it may be that some of the items we perhaps assumed had been agreed to may still be in dispute, because some of them were conditional upon others being agreed to.",
"This section, of course, is also there so that if, as the arbitration is proceeding, the parties get together and agree on some of the items that are in the list that are in dispute, they can present to the arbitration board their written agreements, and that then means the arbitration board doesn’t have to make an award in that particular matter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Just one question along the same line: Is it not necessary that the parties should submit a list of all matters which were entered into and upon which negotiation was originally based, a list of the matters which they believe to have been resolved and then a list of the matters which are still in dispute?",
"The reason I ask is that if a party, for example, were to submit a list of the matters that they consider still to be in dispute and leave out matters which they thought had been resolved, and the other party didn’t deal with those matters, it is entirely possible that the there may not be an agreement on some of the matters.",
"In other words, if there isn’t a list of what in fact is being asked for, and what was asked for originally, what was tentatively agreed upon and what is still in dispute, then it is possible that some matters might get lost."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I suppose anything is possible, Mr. Chairman, but I can assure the member that under this section that we have here, I think the parties will know very well what are the matters still in dispute and will be able to put them in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Subsection (12) -- I’m sorry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Okay, all right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. minister has an amendment to subsection (13).",
"Hon. Mr. Wells moves that subsection (13) of section 3 be amended by inserting after “or” in the third line, “with the approval of the minister.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall this motion carry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Could we have the meaning of this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"The meaning of this is that at the present time a three-month time limit is set on the board of arbitration with the provision that they may extend this time themselves. This says they have to get the approval of the minister if they are going to go to any extension beyond the three months. Several of the parties in this arbitration have suggested they would like that provision in so that we can have the arbitration carried out as quickly as possible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Could I ask a question on the minister’s intention? I, too, have had the same kind of information that both parties, I think, are a little uneasy that the arbitration might drag on and on. Could the minister give an assurance to the House that he would not let the further period extend beyond the new school year, say?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I would hate to give any assurance of time to the hon. member, Mr. Chairman, but I can give him the assurance that I will do everything possible to see that the arbitration board completes its work as quickly as possible.",
"Three months seems to be a reasonable time, but of course we all know things can occur which might make it necessary for extensions. That’s why we put in a little bit of a clause in the legislation to allow this to happen and did not just say three months.",
"If we wanted to be very specific we could say it had to complete its work within three months and we’d probably be all right but if something happened we’d find we had a piece of legislation and we’d have to come back and get an amendment. I can assure the hon. member I will not in any way let the board continue for an unreasonable length of time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"There is a technical problem here, of course, in terms of the dates of the teachers’ resignations. That is, that they can in law resign only as from May 21 or Nov. 30. Surely, those individual teachers who do not like the award should not be prolonged beyond Nov, 30, say, in the employ of the board. I say that for two reasons: First so that the individual teachers who are dissatisfied with the awards can seek employment elsewhere; and the other is that if it is only a one-year award -- if the arbitrators decide that the contract shall only be for the term of one year -- one would hope they get the negotiations or awards settled before they get into the next round of negotiations in the coming year.",
"I appreciate the flexibility that the minister wishes to give the arbitration board here, because often a three or four-day period after a three-month period might be the crucial one. But we would caution him that there are those constraints, those very real constraints -- the resignation times of the teachers and the negotiations looming into the coming year -- to be considered when ministerial approval is being considered on the section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I want to ask a question that causes me concern. It is a general question, if you will permit it, Mr. Chairman, arising out of comments made by the member for Port Arthur. Is there a possibility that you conceive that the board would have the power to award in excess of a one-year contract?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"In excess of one year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think that’s possible. That’s one of the matters in dispute."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That causes me concern because I find it somewhat reprehensible -- I am sure the minister finds this, too -- that we are undertaking the responsibility of a locally-elected board. I can see that in the matter of urgency perhaps the government is constrained to bring forward this legislation which we don’t support. But now, if that board of arbitration is to return an award in excess of a one-year contract, you are not only usurping the function of the board for this year, you are imposing upon a future board perhaps; or at least restraining the right of the present board to undertake collective bargaining procedures in the future. I’d like to hear from the member for Port Arthur and my own colleagues in this connection. I don’t think we want to do that really."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"It binds the teachers also to a term. Bill 275 anticipates a two-year term."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That’s a different ball game. That’s general legislation that we will eventually debate here in the House. But giving the right to this board, for the sake of exaggeration, to award a three-year contract, robs both the teachers and the trustees of their rights."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to make a few comments on this. In line with what my colleague is saying, this could happen at a point in time when the arbitration award is not down but there is an election being held, a completely new board may have been elected -- a board with a completely different point of view and new thinking. As a result, if a two-year or a three-year contract were awarded by the arbitrator, you would be tying future boards to expenditures and benefits that I don’t think you should be tying them to at all.",
"The other item I would like to mention to the minister, as I did when we discussed section 3(3) and I asked the minister to explain two or three lines, is the problem of the resignation of teachers.",
"A teacher has only two times in the year which he can retire or hand in his resignation. May 31 and November 30. Now, if the award is not down in time, before the teacher is to hand in his resignation, the teacher may be dissatisfied with the award presented by the arbitrators, but he will not have the opportunity to resign and look for employment with another board. You’ve sort of chained him into his job for an additional year, and you would have to extend the resignation date for teachers beyond May 31 and possibly put it to 30 days after the award had been presented by the arbitrator."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I just want to make one comment. It seems to me, in an arbitration which is agreed upon voluntarily by both parties, that the term of the agreement should be subject to the decision of the arbitrator. But in a dispute where it is involuntary, where neither party wanted the arbitration and where the arbitration is being imposed by us, it should be for as short a period of time as is reasonable. It seems at this stage that a shortest period of time that is reasonable should be August 31, 1974, and the award should and will be retroactive to September 1, 1973.",
"I would like to suggest to the minister that he do include that. Everyone -- I assume so, anyway -- is going to be under general legislation in any event by August 1, 1974, and in fact negotiations will be starting afresh across the province under the new legislation governing teacher-board negotiations.",
"I think this board and these teachers have to move as swiftly as possible into that new structure and get back together again as quickly as they can in an attempt to try to attain what I spoke about last night, the kind of mutual respect that must be there if there is going to be any sensible and rational negotiation in any event.",
"I would seriously like to ask the minister whether he couldn’t find a way to say that the award shall be for a one-year duration, terminating on the anniversary date, August 31, 1974."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, on this point I feel that I should rise too, because I am concerned about the implications of this particular piece of legislation as it relates to Bill 275. I would like to have the assurance of the minister that in forcing two people into arbitration it should not be expected that any award could be made for any longer term than one year. Surely that would be subject to the position of Bill 275. Surely that is a part of negotiations in other circumstances. And since Bill 275 has not yet taken effect, surely it would be most improper that in these highly questionable circumstances they should be awarded any longer period of time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further comments? Those in favour of the minister’s motion --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I must say that while the arguments that have been put forward are very interesting I have heard no comments from either of the parties concerned in this dispute that there was not a limitation in this bill, that is, making it apply to a one year contract.",
"Now we are, of course, reaching the end of the period for which this award will actually apply. By the time the award is brought down the end of the year for which it applies will practically have been reached, because this, of course, is for a contract beginning September, 1973.",
"I would say that, from my involvement with the negotiations that went on, the duration of the contract was one of the matters that was in dispute. Whether it was to be a 12-, 16- or 24-month contract was one of the matters in dispute. I am not sure that in limiting, at this particular time by this bill, the award for one year we would not be intruding upon or limiting some of the matters that were in dispute."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"You are doing that anyway --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"No, but we are going to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"They said they shall arbitrate pupil-teacher ratio, and that is in dispute, and they said that they shall have a base salary of X, and that is in dispute too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think, on balance, that I would rather have the case for a 12, 16 or 24 month contract argued before the board of arbitration and let them make up their mind. It is a very difficult matter. I don’t think we had thought about it in the drafting, because in my thinking this had been one of the matters in dispute and I thought that it would go to the board. Mr. Chairman, I would feel that we should leave it the way it is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, may I ask of the minister what provision he is making to enable a teacher to submit a resignation at a date later than May 31, in case he were dissatisfied with the award and would like to seek employment with another board?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, there is nothing in this bill that provides for that. He, in his contract, can resign on May 31. Now if the award is not down he will have to wait until that award comes down and then, as the hon. member for Thunder Bay mentioned --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Port Arthur; excuse me. Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"You see, you did get it wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes, yes, there you are."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Private joke."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes. He has the Nov. 30 deadline to consider if he wishes to resign. I don’t think that is a matter that should be considered within this bill.",
"Hon. Mr. Wells has moved that subsection (13) of section 3 be amended by inserting after the word “or” in the third line the words “with the approval of the minister.”",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Are there any further comments, questions or amendments in any later section or subsection of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Section 4."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Subsection (15)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Subsection (14) is it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"No, (15). Can the minister tell me something about the reason why he decided that the bill has to be paid within 30 days? What is all this about? Why are you telling the parties, who have entered into a private arrangement with their nominee to the board, that they have to pay the nominee within 30 days? I don’t quite follow that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"As I understand it, the draftsmen for this bill have taken this from other labour legislation and the 30-day provision is there. We like everybody to be paid promptly -- just like the government pays its bills."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Just to comment on that further. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that if the account is not paid, does the minister expect that the person claiming for fees or disbursements under this situation would have any better result in getting paid under this section than under the general law of contract that prevails on a quantum merit basis that exists now?",
"I just don’t see the point of particularly requiring this kind of legislation when the fact that the person has done a job would allow him to maintain an action if the payments were not there just on the fact that he had done the job."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think that actually what we are talking about here is that the 30 days are put in because that’s the time in which the money that’s required is to be paid by the teachers who are a party to this negotiation. Now those teachers are not a legal entity and after that 30 days the bill then provides that the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation shall pay such moneys; and they, of course, are a legal body. It passes the responsibility for those debts from the teachers who had been a party before the negotiations to a legal body, the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation. The board, of course, is a legal body in the beginning -- right way -- and of course it has to pay --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"It only makes the person involved a little more confident that if there is a problem, there is some more practical recourse of going after an association rather than some 550 teachers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Well, there’s no --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Just one question -- they are within a further 15 days -- now that is the last point I want to make with you. If the board doesn’t pay --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"You can take that out. I don’t --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I think you should. If the board doesn’t pay, then the person they hire has to go after the board for the money."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Quite so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"If the teachers don’t pay, then obviously the person they hire has to go after the federation for the money. How they settle is their business and how long it takes is their business -- and I am not interested in getting involved in how long it takes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"All right. I would be agreeable, Mr. Chairman, to removing “within a further 15 days.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is that subsection (15)? Who is moving it then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I will move it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is the motion understood then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"You might read it, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I am moving -- if you need it written out, I --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"No, it will be on record."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"No, it will be on record.",
"Hon. Mr. Wells moves that the words “within a further 15 days” be deleted from the last part of section 3, subsection (15), and it stands as “shall pay such moneys.”",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"All right, the minister wishes to add a couple of words in subsection (5) of section 3 to further clarify it. Do we have that permission?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes, well I just recall that it was mentioned that there was no general definition of the board of arbitration being a three-person board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Yes, I asked you for that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"And I thought that we should add the word a “third” person in the third line of subsection (5)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"So it shall read “appoint a third person.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"“Appoint a third person to act as chairman of the board of arbitration.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Understood?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is that agreed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Is that just before “a person” in the third line?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes, appoint a third person."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"That amendment is carried then?",
"Agreed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Now, anything further on section 3? Do subsections (16) and (17) carry?",
"Section 3 agreed to.",
"On section 4:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Section 4. It has been brought to my attention that there is some concern over the category that would apply in section 4 where a teacher has been assigned to another job by the board.",
"Mr. Deacon moves that section 4 be amended by the addition of the following sentence: “The category applicable under this section shall be that for which a teacher qualifies and the specialty for which the teacher was hired unless the teacher has specifically requested a change to another specialty.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I would appreciate the minister’s comments on this because there is some concern that there could be confusion because of previous cases of shifting between categories that the board carried out with some of the teachers. I wanted to be sure this was covered and clarified. Would the minister agree to this amendment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Well, no. Mr. Chairman, I can’t agree to this amendment because this guarantee that’s put in the bill is a guarantee of this salary offer for those teachers who are in that category as of the time specified here. I don’t think in this bill we should get into a dispute, which again is an item in dispute, as to which category certain teachers in that board should be in. We don’t attempt to get into that in this particular bill. We merely attempt to say that where the teacher is placed in a category, this is the new salary schedule for him.",
"As the hon. member knows, the placement in categories is one of the issues in dispute in this particular instance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Oh, I thought that was an issue that had been agreed to prior to the actual withdrawal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Well, if that had been agreed to, and the board has made the adjustments in the categories, then the board will put them automatically in the categories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"What I wanted to check was that since the actual contract hasn’t been signed, but as I understand the list of points that were agreed to as they worked through the negotiations, that was one where they had agreed to the way in which these categories will be handled. It is because of that agreement, which had been reached ahead of time, that I am making this suggestion. I recognize that that had been a point of dispute before, but I thought it had been agreed to and I thought it should be so reported in this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, my concern really is that a teacher may be transferred from, say, category 4 to category 3, and as a result suffer a decrease in salary on the transfer between categories and have the board just arbitrarily assign him a different series of subjects to teach. This would simply protect the rights of the teacher who had been in any one of the categories -- I’ll use category 4 -- so that he does not drop below the category 4 level if he had been in it prior to that, simply because the board wants to give him another discipline to teach. If the teacher wishes to be removed from category 4, well then, that’s quite agreeable between the teacher and the board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think my friend realizes, though, that we’re not trying to set that policy in this bill. All we’re trying to do is set a salary schedule effective last September. How the teachers get in that schedule depends upon the policies of the board and so forth. As I said, it was a matter in dispute. It may have been settled. If it’s been settled I’m sure that the rearranging will be done by the board, but then this is the salary schedule that will apply."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"All those in favour of Mr. Deacon’s motion will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “nays” have it.",
"I declare the motion lost and the section carried.",
"Section 4 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Anything on section 5 of the bill?",
"On section 5:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest to the minister that section 5 is no longer applicable because a Supreme Court judge will not need to make a judgement in this matter, and that the preamble is not applicable where it says, “requires that all teachers return to the classroom, and that means be found for the settlement of all matters of dispute between the board and its teachers,” as the teachers have just voted to return to work on March 25. I would like to suggest to the minister that if that were the case, we should suspend discussion of this bill and see if both parties will execute a document outside this House tonight so that it is not necessary that the bill be proceeded with."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I think I received this resolution from the teachers about half an hour ago. I think what the resolution says is that “in anticipation of royal assent to Bill 12, we, the resigned teachers of York county, agree to return to our classes on Monday, March 25, under duress.”",
"I think that that hinges on the passing of this bill. I think we should proceed with the bill. It’s our intention, if the House would agree to proceed with the bill, to give it passage tonight but not royal assent until tomorrow. If an agreement can be arrived at before tomorrow it will not receive royal assent.",
"But I suggest that both parties have agreed -- the board has agreed to take all the teachers back pending the passing of this bill, and the teachers, under this resolution, have agreed to go back also under the passing of this bill -- so I would suggest that apparently they have decided this is the best way finally to end this dispute. I would commend them both, particularly the teachers, for taking the position that they’ve taken at this time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I don’t know when we’ll pass the bill, but I assume that we probably won’t pass it before 6 o’clock. You never know about these things. But it’s entirely possible that the legislation will not be required in its present form. This legislation compels them to return to work. Yet you said they’re going anyway. I realize you said they anticipate the legislation passing; I understand that. Is it not possible that they are now recognizing the mood of the government and are prepared to go back to work and have the matter submitted to arbitration voluntarily?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"No, I’m afraid, Mr. Chairman, that isn’t what the parties have said. I took the hon. member’s suggestion last night and made suggestions to both parties to sign a voluntary arbitration arrangement, but apparently, for their own reasons, they decided not to. So I think we must proceed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Excuse me, was that last night or today?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"In view of their vote this afternoon, where they obviously put it to the teachers, if we can continue tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon and it could receive third reading and royal assent tomorrow afternoon, surely this evening would be a time to make the approach, so that we don’t get enshrined in legislation which has passed second reading, committee stage and third reading the principle of compulsory arbitration for teachers. If it fails this evening, then well and good, proceed tomorrow and the bill will apply as of March 25. We have been desperately looking for a possible way out. It may be, if at this stage we did not proceed with the bill, that the teachers would not feel that they have to go back to the classrooms under duress."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, perhaps if I could enter this matter just to make a suggestion to the minister, it would, I think, appear that certainly the bill will complete its stage in committee this afternoon. The remaining sections are just formality. I don’t think it would be in the best interests of any of us in the House to stress those sections untowardly. If the minister might consider it, when the bill is completed in committee, if this happens this afternoon, it would surely be prudent and in the best interests of all of us to stand over the third reading until tomorrow morning. I would think then not only would the teachers feel that this last step of unfortunate coercion could be drawn back from by their formal agreement, but also this may have a cooling effect on the whole situation.",
"I would commend to the minister that approach so that the House may proceed with other business after we complete this committee stage, if that is the wish of the House leader. I think it would be most worthwhile for us, in fact, formally to complete the committee stage on this bill, so that the intentions of the government which have been well advertised are proceeded with in an orderly fashion. But I would commend to the minister the idea that to proceed with third reading at this point is an unnecessary strengthening of the government position. I think that the position is sufficiently strong and well known that a third reading debate, if there is to be one tomorrow morning, would be a prudent way of handling the matter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Nothing will change, I’ll tell you that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I’m sorry, what did you say?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Nothing will change"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The Premier suggests, Mr. Chairman, that nothing will change before tomorrow morning. This could well be. However, it is simply my personal feeling, and I give it to the Minister of Education for what it’s worth, to do it a day apart might be a prudent thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 5 stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"As for the Premier’s comment that nothing will change tomorrow, something already has changed. The teachers have agreed to go back on March 25 albeit under duress."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"In anticipation of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I understand that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Surely the Premier is not so cynical as to say that it’s not worth making this one last test, or does he, in fact, feel comfortable with compulsory legislation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"No, as none of us do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Fine."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"But if royal assent can be given tomorrow, we can finish the bill today. The resolution is very clear. It’s in anticipation of the bill being passed. Have you read the resolution?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Certainly, I have read the resolution."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"It is very clear."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 5 stand as part of the bill?",
"Section 5 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further comments, questions, amendments on the last two sections of the bill?",
"Sections 6 and 7 carried."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall the bill as amended be reported?",
"Those in favour of the bill as amended being reported will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it.",
"Bill 12, as amended, reported.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the committee rise and report.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the committee of the whole House reports one bill with certain amendments and asks for leave to sit again.",
"Report agreed to."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
THIRD READING
|
[
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Bill 12, An Act respecting a certain Dispute between the York County Board of Education and certain of its Teachers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have already expressed our opposition to the principle of compulsory arbitration, one to which we continue to stick."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"Just for teachers. Not for labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"We feel that every other recourse should have been attempted. It wasn’t in this case. The recourse of trusteeship would have solved the problem, in our view, much better.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"We regret that this opportunity was not taken which would have cleared up the basic division that has arisen over the last period of time between the board and the teachers. It could have been resolved by that method."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"Absolutely impossible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)",
"text": [
"It would haunt the member for the rest of his days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Timbrell",
"text": [
"He hadn’t better dare ever talk about local autonomy again. Never."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"That would have really provided the basis for local autonomy to be expressed truly in the ballot box,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Timbrell",
"text": [
"Nonsense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that we should proceed with third reading. I believe, if it is necessary, we could proceed with third reading tomorrow in view of the teachers, and the trustees’ decisions that one last attempt should be made to execute the document outside the Legislature, so that we do not have enshrined in legislation compulsory arbitration for teachers, therefore contaminating whatever clearness of mind we may bring to bear on the general legislation for teacher-board negotiations which will be coming up sometime this session, I suppose.",
"Therefore, this party opposes at this time the third reading of this bill. We see no reason, if an agreement could not be reached overnight, that we could not have third reading and royal assent tomorrow, if that is necessary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I thought I heard the Premier make a comment with respect to royal assent. There will not be royal assent given on this bill until tomorrow? I just wanted to clarify that matter, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"They are willing to hold off until tomorrow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"If something happens tonight then we can rescind it tomorrow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"If I may, since royal assent will not be given until tomorrow, I don’t see why the government won’t accept the suggestion of the hon. member for Kitchener on withholding third reading of the bill until the time we sit tomorrow. We will sit tomorrow; third reading can be given. Royal assent can be given at that time.",
"We in this party have voted against compulsory arbitration as far as teachers’ negotiations were concerned and we will continue that fight."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is the hon. minister --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say that I believe the bill should be given third reading at this time, and, as the Premier has stated, royal assent will not be given until tomorrow. I have drafted here in my hands a document to go to final and binding arbitration, which I have suggested many times to the parties that they sign. This is another redrafted document, similar to the bill. I stand ready to hear from either of them tonight, and if they’d like to sign this then this bill will not receive royal assent. It is as clear and simple as that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"May I ask a question? It is good to stand ready, but it would be nice if the minister might simply initiate some direct communication between his office and the parties in the dispute rather than wait for them, and say this, that it is the mood of the House that we not have compulsory arbitration imposed by this Legislature -- that is the mood of the House -- and ask them whether there is not yet a way before we have to have it receive royal assent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Some of the member’s party told them that last Sunday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Before this hearing goes on, I’d like to tell the hon. member, even though I’m speaking the second time on this bill, that I’ve communicated many times with the various parties to ask them if they would be interested in this, and this time I felt that if perhaps they are interested might like to communicate with me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Now look, don’t stand on formality. Try again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The motion is for third reading of Bill 12. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?",
"Those in favour of Bill 12, please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it. Call in the members.",
"The motion is for third reading of Bill 12.",
"The House divided on the motion for third reading of Bill 12, which was approved on the following vote:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the “ayes” are 53, the “nays” 30."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I declare the motion carried.",
"Motion agreed to; third reading of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before we adjourn, on behalf of the students and the parents of York county, I’d like to thank all those who supported this Bill 12."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The member could have done that in caucus."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is it the intention of the House leader to sit this evening?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, I’ll say that tomorrow morning we will deal with item No. 5, Bill 8, and then we will return to item No. 1.",
"I was going to call another order, as I had announced last night, but regrettably the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) has other official arrangements for tomorrow and we will call his bill first thing on Monday, March 25.",
"Hon Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 6:05 o’clock, p.m."
]
}
] |
March 14, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-14/hansard
|
TAX CREDIT INFORMATION CENTRE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise members of my decision to broaden the public’s access to the counselling facilities of the Ontario tax credit information centre in my ministry.",
"The Ontario tax credit information centre was established in early January. We have a staff of about 20 trained counsellors manning telephones to answer the public’s inquiries and to provide direction on claiming the three tax credits available.",
"To date, we have already received well over 23,000 telephone calls with 60 per cent of the calls originating from within Metropolitan Toronto and some 40 per cent from the remainder of Ontario.",
"I might add, Mr. Speaker, that I am most impressed by these results. In contacting the information centre, many people have thanked us for establishing this public service."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Oh sure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I intend, therefore, to broaden its scope through an evening and a weekend service."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"It’s such a complicated system, no wonder people need assistance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"During March and April, the tax credit information centre will be open from 8 a.m. until 9 p.m., Monday to Friday, and from noon until 5 p.m. on Saturdays and Sundays.",
"Our purpose is to provide people with access to government on these important tax credits at times most convenient to them. As many people claim their credits by completing a federal income tax return during the evenings or on the weekends, it makes sense to have our staff available to them at those times.",
"The information centre has been open during weekends and evenings on a trial basis for the last two weeks. More than 800 residents, mostly from outside Metropolitan Toronto, telephoned between 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. The response during the past two weekends, however -- and I emphasize weekends, Mr. Speaker -- was disappointing to the extent that we received only 370 calls. Clearly we need to advertise the service more extensively and this we will be doing as I have indicated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"How about the $500,000 the minister has already spent on the service?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"He can take out full-page ads."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Half a million."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
SALARY INCREASES FOR GENERAL SERVICES EMPLOYEES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to announce to the House that the tentative agreement on salary increases for bargaining unit employees in the general service category has now been ratified by the employees concerned and, for the employer, has been accepted by the Management Board of Cabinet.",
"The settlement involves some 18,000 public servants, the majority of whom are in typing, stenographic and general clerical functions, as well as a number of investigative personnel in fire services and securities investigations, and inspectors in the motor vehicle branch of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications.",
"Salary increases range from eight per cent to 10 per cent in the first year of the contract, with the large majority of classes receiving increases of nine per cent, while the increases in the second year is seven per cent for all classes. The contract covers the two-year period from Jan. 1, 1974, to Dec. 31, 1975.",
"It is particularly gratifying to note that agreement was reached in direct negotiations between the parties without third-party assistance of any kind. This marks the third settlement on salary matters in the public service which has been arrived at in direct negotiations between the parties since the Crown Employees Collective Bargaining Act came into force in December, 1972. In addition, complete contracts have been renegotiated in direct bargaining between the parties during the past year for employees of the Liquor Control and Liquor Licence Boards, for two groups of employees in the Niagara Parks Commission and for the Ontario Provincial Police bargaining unit.",
"It must be reassuring to the members of this House to know that the great majority of the labour agreements for Crown employees are being resolved by the good-faith-bargaining of the parties. It will continue to be the goal of the government to resolve any contract differences in this way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What about fringe benefits?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions.",
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
TAX CREDIT INFORMATION CENTRE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Revenue, following his statement: How can he justify to the taxpayers of the province the fact that his excessively intrusive advertising programme promoting something called Ontario’s “fair share” programme would have been overlooked by so many citizens that he would have to express disappointment at the small number of people who had called his offices during the week- end, when he says most people are most concerned with receiving that information?",
"While I am up, I might as well ask a supplementary to the first question. How much money has he spent on that advertising programme already?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the programme is ongoing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"It will be going until six weeks before the election.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mil. Meen",
"text": [
"We have a schedule of weekly papers and daily papers and of radio and television, whereby we hope to reach the maximum number of people. We did a survey back in January, in which we discovered that some 69 per cent of Ontario residents -- I think that was the figure -- did not know or, frankly, if they did know, they certainly were unsure, whether there was even a property tax credit available to them this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"The government sure mangled it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"And that’s called effective communications!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That survey was done after most of those people had received from the federal government their income tax forms for this year, in which our material was included.",
"It was obvious, therefore, that for us to be able to reach the elderly people who perhaps don’t read the papers and don’t look at these forms, to reach the disadvantaged generally, and receive these income tax returns becomes they may not have been paying income tax for quite some years, and to let them know that there was in fact money available to them under this programme, we undertook the advertising programme to which the hon. member has referred and to which I referred."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"The minister said they didn’t read the papers -- why advertise?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Now, as to the cost; the cost will be around half a million dollars for the total programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"Shame, shame."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"When we are talking about a rebate of some $300 million to the elderly and the needy, it’s a very small price to pay to be able to let them know that that money is available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Why does the government take it in the first place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"This cost works out, Mr. Speaker, at about 10 cents for every tax filer. Another way of working it out is that it’s approximately one cent for every $5 of money being paid back to these people. We think it’s money very well spent.",
"As to the availability of weekend service, we think that’s an appropriate way to help out those who haven’t comprehended in some way what the programme is all about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Especially when the government is getting the PR value from it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"They are reading the ads. They are seeing them on television. They are hearing them on the radio. They are telephoning us for the necessary advice and assistance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"Aside from the cost of publicizing the minister’s department, what is the cost of the administration of this scheme to get back the money that the government extracted from them in the first place? What’s the cost of administration?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Well, that’s pretty hard to estimate at this time, Mr. Speaker, but it’s a small fraction, possibly 20 per cent, of the balance of the cost."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)",
"text": [
"Money well spent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I didn’t hear what that small fraction was."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I didn’t indicate the amount, Mr. Speaker, but I would think --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister said 20 per cent, I think."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- that it is perhaps 20 per cent or so of our other costs that are directly related to the advertising."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: How can the minister justify spending half a million dollars for this advertising when in fact in the tax returns there are forms to fill out to claim a tax rebate? Secondly, which of the minister’s PR friends got the job of preparing the ads? And, thirdly, is it necessary to have the minister’s name and the Premier’s name (Mr. Davis) so prominent on the ad?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That turns people off.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Incredible though it may seem, people do not read these inserts, and we have had calls from people after --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"If the hon. member for Ottawa East will just sit back and listen for a minute, he might hear the answer.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"The minister might learn something too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Lesson one, how to be a cabinet minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I want to tell the hon. members that we’ve received telephone calls from people who have seen and heard our advertisements, or read them in their weekly press, saying, “I filed my return but I didn’t realize I was entitled to any kind of credit and I threw out that insert.” As a consequence, by providing them with additional material, we’ve been able to help them to make a claim through the mechanism of the income tax for their proper and fair share of the money being paid back.",
"The second question the hon. member asked me was, who has the advertising programme? I will get that information for him. And the third question -- the hon. member had a third question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Why the minister’s name and the Premier’s name is mentioned, but not my name?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Why is the minister so mean?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It’s a rather common practice to include the name of the Premier and the minister involved. As a matter of fact, I might point out that this gives the hon. member the opportunity to ask me these questions in the House, I suppose, be- cause I can take the responsibility for the ad."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He still didn’t explain why he was so mean, but that’s another matter."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
YORK COUNTY SCHOOL GRANTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would like to ask the Premier if the cabinet -- the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) particularly -- is contemplating some kind of programme to assist with special grants for the provision of summer schools in the York county area to provide additional education to make up for what will have been missed by the time the schools are reopened?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education may have some observations on that. I don’t know that any consideration has been given to that, if initiated by the local board. But I would suggest that that might be a proper question to ask the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Would it not be important that students who have worked hard should get credit according to the work they’ve done, and that it not be just a blanket approval for all students, regardless of whether their work in the past has been satisfactory? In effect, the minister had indicated that everyone would be looked after. Surely they should be looked after in accordance with the work they have been doing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would think that’s a very natural conclusion, and one that I’m sure will be drawn by the board that has the responsibility for the administration of the educational programme in the county which the hon. member represents -- which board the hon. member has no confidence in. We happen to have some."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"People in the area have confidence in the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The government doesn’t have all that much confidence in the board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"On what does the Premier base that statement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary of the Premier, if he can disengage himself from this tête-à-tête with the hon. member for York Centre. Does the Premier recall or can he tell the House whether or not the per-pupil grants for the secondary school students were withdrawn when the teachers went out on strike?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have no idea whether the grants were withdrawn. I think it’s a question of, as I recall, the grant formula, and I now have to go back in memory. The grants are payable on the basis of monthly average attendance and no longer of daily attendance. I would think that when the calculations for the York board are made the number of days in attendance on an average basis will be calculated. I don’t think it’s a question of withdrawing the grants, it’s a question of the grants that will be payable as the requests are made or as the documentation comes in. I stand to be corrected because I really haven’t dealt with the grant regulations now for a period of time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"A question of clarification, Mr. Speaker, if I may: Does that mean if there were a relatively low attendance, i.e., about five per cent for a monthly period, the grants would only be at a five per cent rate for that monthly period?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I really don’t recall the specifics of the regulations. I think the member should properly ask the minister. My best recollection is that it now does relate to average attendance rather than daily attendance, and it does relate to those figures when the grants are made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Supplementary: What is the government going to do to correlate its grant system in its settlement, with the obvious decline in enrolment which we’re experiencing in this province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think the answer to that is relatively obvious. Enrolments are determined basically in September of each academic year, and although there is some fall-off, unfortunately -- because of a limited number of students dropping out of the system, and these are calculated as well -- as enrolments decline the grants payable to the boards reflect this. It does relate to numbers of students. Once again, I think it’s on either weekly or monthly average attendance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Op- position."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
PRIVILEGE OF ELECTED MUNICIPAL OFFICIALS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would like to ask another question of the Premier: Did he read the reports this morning about the continuing problems with lead pollution in Toronto and, specifically, the threats of action by way of injunction against the chairman of the Board of Health of Toronto, Mrs. Anne Johnston? What does he think of the suggestion put forward that a certain type of privilege of the type that we enjoy as members of the Legislature should be extended to elected municipal officials so that they can speak frankly and without fear under these circumstances? Surely, that is something to which we should give careful consideration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have only glanced at the headlines because my attention, I must confess, was occupied with one or two other matters so I can’t comment on the content of the news stories. I think there is some degree of privilege, although I would have to check this out. I was going to observe that some day we might even discuss privilege as it relates to what is said in this House from time to time but I won’t suggest that sort of debate on this occasion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Will the Premier, besides seeing what privilege is available, give an opinion to the House as to whether or not we might consider, through legislation, extending the same privilege to people who have this kind of responsibility and who are expected to be able to speak out without fear or favour?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I’m quite prepared to consider anything that’s reasonable and I’m quite prepared to see just what privilege there may be and see whether or not we should consider it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"If it is reasonable for us it should be reasonable for them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"We sometimes abuse it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Op- position?",
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
COST OF LIVING INCREASES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Premier: Given the quite startling jump again in the cost of living announced today, is the government of Ontario prepared to take any initiatives beyond the paragraph contained in the Throne Speech?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the government of this province -- I think it was clear in the Throne Speech and in other speeches that I and the Treasurer (Mr. White) have made -- regards the whole question of inflation -- and I don’t just say the cost of living -- as being the most significant problem that this jurisdiction, Ontario, faces. I think this is true nationally.",
"I can only say to the hon. member that this government, and the Treasury people in particular, have given consideration to what means might be available within provincial jurisdiction to assist in this very basic problem. I’ve made it very clear to the first minister of Canada. It was contained in the Throne Speech and I have communicated to him directly that this province is more than prepared to play its role in any national approach.",
"While I don’t want to get into a lengthy discussion today as to the problems of jurisdiction, I think it is evident to the hon. member -- and I’m sure he’s very familiar with it -- that it is very difficult for a province unilaterally to come to grips with the issue of inflation. I wish we could, because we regard it as serious, perhaps more serious than some others who sometimes speak about it and who do have, I think, some of the financial and fiscal tools to do something about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"One wouldn’t know from the Throne Speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I mean the member’s colleagues in Ottawa, quite frankly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, I do not concede that it is difficult for the Province of Ontario at all. I think it is wholly within the powers of the Province of Ontario constitutionally.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What are the specifics that the Treasury Board, the Premier and his colleagues are considering to play their role in the Province of Ontario? Can he give us a glimpse of any policy that he has which would effectively fight inflation in the field of food prices, for example, within the Province of Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, one area in which this government, I think, has made a really very significant effort, and one which is not totally supported by the members opposite because it does have an impact on inflation, is the level of government expenditure. There is no question whatsoever that the level of government expenditure -- and I have seen the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) on television on this issue; I saw him two or three times on television talking about this very matter himself --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Come on!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"There is no question that municipal, provincial and federal --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Does the Premier watch it that often?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Yes, he did, he did indeed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I turn him off.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He turns us off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I’m sure the leader of the NDP turns him off. There may be some days when the leader of the party turns off the member for High Park. The reverse may also be true from time to time, I don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We have a very friendly relationship."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"However, before I was sidetracked and getting such enthusiastic nodding support from the economic expert in the New Democratic Party, I was saying to the hon. member that the level of expenditure by municipal, provincial and federal governments has, without any question --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They are contributing services to people all across Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- an impact on the rate of inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No it has not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"And the member’s people across the House argue against ceilings, his people particularly --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No we do not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- in a hypocritical way, incidentally, to try to throw us off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Certainly we do in health."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"And this is where this government, with some political flak, and I don’t minimize it, has indeed made a genuine effort to restrain expenditures."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What about the sales tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, where have they done it? Mr. Speaker, I have not had my supplementary answered. I will ask it again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"There is a specific instance --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"In those factors that are monitored in the cost of living index, specifically in terms of food, let the Premier name one initiative that this government is taking to control the rising prices in the food sector.",
"Don’t let him talk to me about the public sector generally; we’ll debate that another time. Let him tell us about food prices."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"It helps curb inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have debated the question of control of food prices in this House on two or three occasions. I think both the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) and the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr.",
"Clement) have dealt with this in a very constructive, very positive way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Not a single specific."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"And I think they have made it abundantly clear that for a provincial jurisdiction to move in to endeavour to control costs where many of the commodities are a part of the international marketplace is just totally inconsistent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A cop-out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"It is true and the member knows it is true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, it is not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"It is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Further to the Premier’s, I think, third answer, is he then saying that since the economy of the province requires the restraint which he is so proud of, we can look for something approaching a balanced budget brought down in April? His record as Premier has certainly been ever-increasing deficits, the biggest in our history. He took a situation where his predecessor had a $150 million surplus and he has added $1.6 billion to the deficit. Is that not inflationary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"You don’t want any ceilings."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Brant has demonstrated his great expertise in mathematics in this House on more than one occasion, and again this afternoon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"He has been right on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"He has not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"He has."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"He has not. The question of a provincial deficit --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)",
"text": [
"Does the Premier mean that his deficit is bigger?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He said my figures were as good as his."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Oh, I would say with great respect they were way out. Now, getting back to the point raised, the question of the extent of the provincial deficit does not relate to the rate of inflation. There is just no relationship between the two."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh come on.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"There is not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"Forty per cent increase in sales tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"If my economic experts, both of them --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"What does the member for High Park say? Ask him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Now I am in trouble, because the member for Scarborough West says yes and the hon. member for High Park says no.",
"I would also say this, that the extent of the deficit is very directly related to the necessity of this province to continue to maintain the level of service which is important, without the recognition by the Liberals’ federal friends in Ottawa that they have not done their part in federal-provincial rationalization of the tax scheme. What is more, he knows it is true. And you know. Mr. Speaker, If I can give the member for Brant some advice, the sooner he disassociates himself economically from the federal government in Ottawa and those who are supporting him, the much better off he will be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The government in Ottawa is supported by the NDP, too, just the way this government is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A balanced budget is an Eisenhower argument. It is not a Turner argument."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Does the Premier, to use his own words, not feel somewhat hypocritical standing in this House and talking about inflation --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Answer yes or no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)",
"text": [
"The member shouldn’t discuss that one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"-- when it was his government that raised the sales tax from five to seven per cent, and even his limited economic experience should tell him that increasing taxes is going to raise the price of goods and services?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, I am not an economist."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"That is obvious.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I am sure that that is very evident. But there are some things I am that the members opposite aren’t, which is also increasingly evident day after day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Yes, but they are not repeatable here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"We won’t get into that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Privileged or not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Privileged or not -- and I would only say this, Mr. Speaker. I’m not going to argue whether tax increases are palatable or otherwise; we don’t like them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Are they inflationary or not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the Premier try the resource sector?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"But the basis and the rationale for the increase in the sales tax was basically to bring about a redistribution --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Because the government wouldn’t tax its friends."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- in benefits to the general public in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, because the government won’t tax the resource sector."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"And without any question the bulk of the increase in revenue from the sales tax has gone back to the tax credit system and the grants to the municipalities to relieve those people who feel the causes of inflation to a greater extent than others in a way that I think is most appropriate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"And how many civil servants did the government have to hire to administer that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The Treasurer may have some other views to express."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Op- position."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"You are right on, Mr. Speaker."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
FOOD PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Believe it or not, Mr. Speaker, I’ll ask that question. May I ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food -- I’m sorry to interrupt him?",
"May I ask the Minister of Agriculture and Food, with the increase in the cost of living which was announced today, it now emerges that the average Ontario food basket monitored by his ministry has risen by some 40 per cent in the last three years. Is the minister making any recommendations to cabinet which can put some control in the area of food prices at the checkout-counter level -- at the supermarket level? Is there something that can be done to control this rate of inflation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, with regard to the food prices that have been referred to by my friend, most of those prices are reflected at producer level. Over the last three years there has been a substantial increase."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Has the minister looked at the profits in supermarkets?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, I don’t see how our friends over there, who are doing everything they can to charm the farmers of Ontario at least to believe enough in them to elect one farmer to their party --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"They are not reflected at the producer level."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is a start."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- can stand in this House and be as hypocritical as they are about food prices, condemning the very people whom they are supposed to be trying to serve."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Not so. Not so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: I don’t mind the Minister of Agriculture and Food defending the farmers -- that’s his job, and he knows and I know that the farmers should get the increased income."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Yes, right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What I want to know is, why is he defending the profits of the supermarket chains? That’s not his job."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)",
"text": [
"Watch your image now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend refers to profits of the supermarket chains. If we follow through on some of the matters that have been raised in that food basket, beef particularly --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, that is not the serious one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Oh, yes it is. That is probably the greatest illustration of any advance over the last three years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"What does the member want them to do, eat pork?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It wouldn’t be the first time that either of them did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That will come back to haunt the member for York South."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think I’ll pass."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I have eaten it all my life; I have never had that problem!"
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
PRICE FIXING IN SUPERMARKETS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"May I ask of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, is he prepared to take a look at the possible price fixing in the supermarket and retail food sector as a way of beginning to take under control the kinds of skyrocketing inflation in the food industry which some government somewhere seriously has to contain?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as my hon. friend probably knows the question of price fixing is, in fact, if it can be proven, an offence under the Combines Investigation Act, and therefore a federal matter. However, in my ministry, through my chief economist, we are currently doing an analysis of food market profits for the past 24 months in an effort to ascertain just where they have been derived.",
"The member will recall I mentioned the other day that one particular chain had what would appear to be a substantial profit last year, but it turns out the bulk of that was derived from the sale of capital assets.",
"Rut we are doing this analysis, and hope to have it completed shortly; then we will proceed from there once we know the facts of that inquiry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Would the minister be prepared to provide for the public a monitoring of food prices in a range of communities across the province, and a monitoring of the disparities in individual commodities in various communities across the province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we are already monitoring in the Metro area, in the Kitchener-Waterloo area and in northern Ontario in, I believe, three different areas --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Why is the minister hiding the results?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He won’t give us the results."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I’ll make the results available without identifying the stores at this particular time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why won’t the minister identify the stores? Why is it not in the public interest to know who were responsible for the high prices?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have taken a look at those figures from time to time; they vary as much as 10 or 15 cents a week between the different chains, and the next week the situation might reverse itself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Then let the pattern be demonstrated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"There is nothing particularly astounding about it at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That was spelled out by William Janssen in study No. 14 for the farm income committee five years ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"This week one supermarket may be up, and the public may interpret it that that supermarket is ripping off the public; next week it may be in the low part of the scale. The difference between the low and the high is very insignificant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Has the minister noticed in the ongoing survey that the rate of increase is much greater in northern Ontario than it is elsewhere in the province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, going by recollection -- and I haven’t seen the figures for possibly three or four weeks -- it seems to me that the last set of figures I saw show that at that time the highest prices for articles in our basket were in the Thunder Bay area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Does the minister propose to do anything about it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Sure, he’s going to buy in Toronto."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Yes, I propose to do this about it: We have had correspondence with the people at the Food Prices Review Board in Ottawa. They have conducted investigations to see if those particular prices are, in fact, not warranted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Unconscionable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"But insofar as my doing something about it, I would welcome any observations that any member of this House might make as to what legislation currently in our books we can act under."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Pass some -- roll them back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Oh, but it is criminal. The price fixing to which my friend alludes, sir, is definitely under federal jurisdiction."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"This isn’t price fixing; this is entirely price gouging. They are just unwarranted increases."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"But in my hon. friend’s initial question he called it price fixing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"It’s price gouging."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister telling the House that the province has the power and the authority to equalize beer prices across the province but cannot equalize fundamental foodstuff prices across the province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Yes, I will tell the House that. That’s nothing profound; that’s absolutely the truth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, by way of supplementary, why is that the truth, when property and civil rights are provincial rights within the constitution? The minister can regulate prices if he wishes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"That is a good government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I cannot do that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Certainly he can!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No further questions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"All right. The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has the answer to a question asked previously. Then I will recognize the hon. member for Sarnia."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
RECONSTRUCTION OF HIGHWAY 401 NEAR WINDSOR
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a question that was asked yesterday by the member for Windsor West (Mr. Bounsall). Perhaps you’ll take note and tell him about it when he gets back.",
"The question is, what is the schedule of reconstruction of Highway 401’s right-hand lane westerly to Windsor from 10 to 15 miles out of Windsor? When will construction start, and will it be commenced and finished this summer?",
"Mr. Speaker, two resurfacing contracts were awarded on this section of Highway 401. Contract 73-171 covered the section from interchange No. 6 westerly to interchange No. 4, a distance of 8.7 miles. It was awarded on Jan. 9, 1974; work is to start May 1, and the anticipated completion date is October, 1974. Contract 73-172 starts at interchange No. 4 and continues westerly to the Highway 3-B interchange, a distance of 10.3 miles. This was awarded on Jan. 16, 1974; work is to start May 6, 1974, and completion is anticipated in October, 1974."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"I told him that yesterday. I knew that. It’s in my riding."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sarnia."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"A question of the Premier: Could the Premier advise as to whether he agrees with the Minister of National Health and Welfare that the intrusion of a World Football League entry into the city of Toronto is a threat to the peace, order and good government of our nation? And could he use his influence with his friends in Ottawa to stop that silly symphony that is going on?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"They’ve got to keep the government busy up there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can only assume from the question that the member for Sarnia disagrees categorically with the Minister of National Health and Welfare and his policies --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am asking the question! I wondered if --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"No, no -- but the member said it was a silly symphony, and I am taking from that, that is what he is saying."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why football?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am asking, does the Premier agree or disagree?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I expressed the point of view, I think, on a certain television programme on Sunday evening, where I made it very clear, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Has the Premier ever made anything clear?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Yes, I know that there are some for whom these words are difficult to completely understand and I won’t go any further. But I will now try to answer this matter of urgent public importance --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Don’t use the word “hypocrite”!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The member for Sarnia has asked me whether I agree that the awarding of a franchise and the operation of a team in Toronto in the World Football League will hurt the question of peace, order and good government. I think to answer that part of the question, I would say I don’t think it would. I don’t think it is going to disturb peace. I don’t think it is going, you know, to affect order; and I don’t think really it’s going to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"What about government responsibility?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I don’t think, really, it’s going to alter the questionable government we are getting in Ottawa. Now I have other solutions to that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"What about the Premier’s friends in Ottawa; what is he going to do about them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Well, I must confess that we have not had a great deal of success with our friends in Ottawa who are much closer to the member’s people across the House; and if the member for Sarnia feels strongly on this issue, I would suggest that he communicate his views to the minister responsible and perhaps bring this matter to a speedy conclusion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"What are the Premier’s views?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What are the Premier’s views?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, and in a more serious vein, does this government intend to make any representation to the federal government with respect to the intervention by the Minister of National Health and Welfare on the supposed grounds of a threat to the peace, order and good government of this country?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Does the Premier agree with vocal John or silent Bob?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, we have not contemplated making any representations to the minister himself, and as I say I expressed a personal point of view the other evening. I think I made it abundantly clear on that particular occasion that the federal government has been responsible for. shall we say, developing this debate; and I think that it is its responsibility to bring it to a conclusion. We are not contemplating, as a government, any action to stop the World Football League."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Is he arguing with the law?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"One final supplementary: Do I understand the position of the government here in Ontario to be that it has no function in connection with the present dispute at all, and that it is solely and totally the responsibility of the government of Canada, notwithstanding the provisions of the constitution of our country?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Well Mr. Speaker, I think that certainly the federal government has been responsible for, shall we say developing this debate, and certainly --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Does this provincial government have any responsibility; yes or no?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I think it’s within this area of responsibility they have to solve it. We have not looked into the question of any constitutional responsibility or jurisdiction we may or may not have."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The Premier has nothing to say as the leader of the government, not a thing?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"No, not at this point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sudbury."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
PAYMENTS TO JURORS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Solicitor General: I’m sure the minister is aware of a five-man coroner’s jury which has been sitting in Sudbury for eight weeks investigating the deaths of 23 people in the Sudbury General Hospital. Is it not expecting a little much from these citizens to give up, say 25 per cent of their incomes, in order to do their civic duty? When can we expect amendments to the legislation which would adjust the per diem rate of jurors; and what special steps is the Solicitor General going to take to relieve the financial hardship which has been caused to these five people presently sitting?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, because of the number of deaths involved in that unfortunate incident in Sudbury --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The minister figures six bucks a day is enough."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- and because of the fact --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"Get to the point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- that most of the families have retained counsel, those are among the reasons the inquest has been going on for so long.",
"Now as far as jurors’ fees are concerned, this is of course something for the Attorney General’s department to decide."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The coroners are under the Solicitor General."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"It is my understanding those fees are being looked at and are expected to be increased this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Retroactively?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I might say that although the fees are apparently low, particularly in a situation where you have a long inquest, in some cases the salaries of some of the jurors apparently will continue on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"What about the rest?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"In any event there are expenses as well as the per diem fee, but I do admit that that fee is low."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"What is the minister going to do about it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"All right. The hon. member for Ottawa East is next."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
SUDBURY HOSPITAL INVESTIGATION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) I’d like to ask the Premier a question in relation to this inquest in the Sudbury General Hospital. Is the Premier aware that according to the evidence, had the Canadian Standards Association code which was drawn up in 1963 been accepted by the provincial government, by this government in this province, it would have probably avoided the gas mixup? What possible justification could he give us here today as to why this code has not been accepted by this government?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with the transcript of the evidence that has been given during the conduct of the coroner’s inquest. I’d be delighted to discuss this with my colleague the Minister of Health at an appropriate time and I’m sure he will be delighted to give the member a reply."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
YORK COUNTY SCHOOL GRANTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Education, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister state clearly, which the Premier was unable to do earlier in the question period, whether or not the per pupil grants for secondary schools in York county have been withdrawn from that board since the teachers’ dispute in which they withdrew their services?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, what actually is happening, and it is the same as happened in Windsor last year, is that the amount of grants that the board receives is being reduced by the amount that would have been paid in salaries to those teachers who have withdrawn their services. The ceiling is also appropriately reduced for the period of time when those people are not in the employ of the board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Was there a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: I wonder in that connection if the minister could make it clear whether there would be special additional grants available to that board to provide summer courses for those students who might choose to make up some of the education time lost?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this would be something we would have to discuss with the board. If the board wishes to talk to us about it we would discuss it with the board. There are many boards operating summer courses at summer schools at the present time, as I am sure my friend knows. Secondary school credits during the summer for students who want to take them are offered by many boards. I assume that they finance those under present arrangements, but I would be glad to discuss this with the board if they wish."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: To what extent would the minister’s statement -- I think made in conjunction with some board members -- apply that no students would suffer from the fact they have been out of school now for six weeks? Does this mean that their promotion won’t suffer or that the actual body of knowledge that they would have been able to impart to the students would remain unchanged through some additional make-up courses?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"What my statement meant, Mr. Speaker, was that we were going to take all measures possible to study ways to help anybody who felt he was at a disadvantage because of the period of time he had missed.",
"We have two people in the ministry specially appointed to meet with the principals of the schools and the teachers when they resume full operations to assist in the study and interpretation of any of the regulations that perhaps may be wrongly interpreted. We are going to assist, so far as applications to universities are concerned, to make sure that the people realize that there was a problem here and that the students are given special attention where their applications are concerned if their marks weren’t available at the appropriate time, and things like this.",
"There are a lot of details that will be taken care of. If there have to be make-up courses or things like this, we will assist them to do that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Lanark."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
CAPITAL GRANTS FOR FARMERS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. J. Wiseman (Lanark)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food. In view of the fact that $10 million has been set aside for capital grants for farmers, and in view of the fact that in my riding there are quite a few who have applied and have been told they have to wait till next year to receive the money, is the minister considering adding to that before the end of the fiscal year, or if not, will it be raised in the coming year? The $10 million figure just doesn’t seem to be enough to cover these grants to help the farmers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am happy to advise the House through you, sir, in answer to my friend’s question -- I know he has been very much concerned in the past about this matter -- that we will honour all of the applications on hand for capital grants prior to the end of this fiscal year for every farmer in Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Because the government is afraid we are wooing the farmers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"No, because there is an election coming, that’s why. Right before the election there is no end of money then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener has been trying to get the floor for some time."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO SAVINGS OFFICE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Revenue. Has the Minister of Revenue instigated a review of the operation of the provincial savings offices, especially with respect to the comments made in the auditor’s report that five of the 21 offices have run at a consistent loss for the last 15 years or more? Would the minister in his review, which I would hope would be tabled in the House, advise us of other financial institutions in the communities where these branches are operating at a loss, particularly in light of the financial ability of nearly every other institution, whether it be bank or trust company or whatever, to make a substantial and healthy profit in this society?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member will also recall, if he read the full text of the auditor’s report concerning the Province of Ontario Savings Office, that to a substantial degree it really depends on how you adjust certain of the interest-earning portions of the portfolios carried by those various banks. If it were adjusted on a different basis, I believe he will recall that the Provincial Auditor indicated the profit and loss picture on some of those branches might be very different.",
"Consequently, it may or may not be the case that there are five that are losing money. In any event, they are providing service. Even if they are losing money, I don’t think one would automatically say they should be closed down. It might be that changes in the operations of those branches and perhaps in many of the others as well could be made which would enhance the facility and service they provide to the banking public in various communities.",
"I can say with confidence that my ministry will be looking at the report and at the operations of the Province of Ontario Savings Office to determine whether its operations may be streamlined, and I suppose, peripherally to that, whether any of them should be adjusted and, indeed, whether some expansion in the activity might be undertaken."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York South."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
SUPPLY AND PRICE OF FERTILIZER
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Now that his ministry has hosted a national fertilizer conference and confirmed what everybody knew -- namely that there is a shortage of fertilizer and the companies are capitalizing on that situation with higher prices -- what does the government propose to do about investigating the validity of those higher prices and perhaps countering them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I missed that question. Did my hon. friend ask if we were going to do something similar to the government of Manitoba in investigating fertilizer prices?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"No, the four western provinces including Alberta; a gentleman known as Lougheed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I have the report of the Manitoba government’s investigation of fertilizer prices. I will be interested to see what it does with that report. The conference we held here on Monday and Tuesday of this week --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The minister turns me off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- which was a national conference."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"He can turn me off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I wouldn’t say that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I would."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"The member could but there we differ. That’s why he is over there and we are over here.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"The real concern, Mr. Speaker, is that there could be a scarcity of fertilizers. There’s no question of it. There certainly will not be enough fertilizers to meet all the demands in Canada and the United States, and certainly on a world-wide basis there is no possibility of meeting those demands. I would suggest that it’s going to be extremely difficult to do anything about lowering the price of fertilizers in view of the fact that there are standing orders from off-shore sources for quantities of fertilizer of almost any analysis or type, without any price attached. “Just simply send us the fertilizer” -- those are open-ended orders.",
"I would think we will probably be lucky if we can get anything like enough fertilizers in Canada and the United States to meet the demand, even at the prices they are being held at now, which are much below world prices. I share the concern my friend from York South has suggested. It is a very real concern but I really don’t know how one puts a lid on it today in view of the enormous demand there is for these commodities."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I will try to get the minister some answers, then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"That’s fine. I will be interested to know what they do in Manitoba because they have that report on their hands now and we will be watching that with some interest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"In other words, the minister is going to do nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Chairman of the Management Board has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
APPOINTMENT OF CSAO ARBITRATION MEDIATOR
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a reply for the member for Scarborough West to a question he asked the other day on the appointment of a mediator in the employee benefit negotiations.",
"Mr. Howard Brown was appointed to mediate the dispute last November and scheduled a meeting with the parties on Nov. 26. This meeting was cancelled by the parties because they wished to have one more try at resolving the matter in direct negotiations. In spite of the efforts of both parties an impasse was reached for the second time on Jan. 16. Mr. Brown was contacted by the spokesman for the CSAO by letter, which Mr. Brown received on Feb. 4, and asked to convene a meeting of the parties.",
"By this time, Mr. Brown’s schedule did not permit him to schedule an early meeting and he so advised the registrar of the Public Service Labour Relations Tribunal on the same day. A copy of his letter was sent to the CSAO and to the staff relations branch of the Civil Service Commission. After several weeks had passed without any further word on this matter, a member of the staff relations branch contacted the registrar of the tribunal during the week of Feb. 18. He was advised that the registrar was waiting for some indication from the parties as to their views on the appointment of a different mediator.",
"A letter was delivered to the CSAO on Feb. 26, urging them to make their views known so that this matter could proceed. The CSAO responded to this urging by a letter dated Feb. 27, asking the tribunal to appoint another mediator immediately, or send the matter on to arbitration. Although the government was not the party to apply for conciliation services in this instance, and therefore is not the party with primary responsibility for follow-up, it will be seen that we have consistently tried to keep this matter moving along.",
"As further evidence of this, Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the members that although the government objects in principle to the bypassing of any stages in the collective bargaining process, there have been so many delays in these particular negotiations that we have advised the tribunal that the government would not object if this matter were referred to arbitration, rather than to appoint another mediator.",
"The hon. member for Scarborough West will want to be reassured that these steps were taken by the government before the matter was raised in the House on Tuesday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time for oral questions has expired.",
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Hon. Mr. Rhodes presented the annual report of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission for the year ended Dec. 31, 1972."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills.",
"Before the orders of the day, I should like to deal with a matter that had been raised earlier this week. I’m referring to the alleged matter of privilege raised by the hon. members for Scarborough West and Ottawa Centre (Mr. Cassidy).",
"I must again point out, as I have on several other occasions, that by standing order No. 27(i) a minister may, in his discretion, decline to answer any question. I know of no recognized privilege of Parliament that would supersede that provision. Nor can members demand, as a matter of privilege, the tabling by a minister of documents which they may consider important. The standing orders provide procedures for members who are not satisfied with answers to questions, and for notices of motion for the production of documents.",
"In the latter case I should point out, however, that the mere tabling of a notice of motion for the production of papers does not compel that production of the documents. The motion must be passed by the House and become an order of the House before it becomes obligatory on a minister to comply therewith.",
"I suggest that this latter fact re-emphasizes what I said at the outset, that is, that the refusal of a minister to comply with an oral demand in the question period for the production of documents is not a matter of privilege."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Prior to the orders of the day, I rise on a point of personal privilege, or perhaps clarification. Some time ago it had been thought that the government would integrate certain services in the hospitals in the city of Sarnia, sir, and at that time I wrote a letter to the then Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mr. Welch), thinking that it was within his purview of responsibility. During a heated exchange in the House last week, I said that the then secretary had not responded to my correspondence, and I wish to advise that I misled the House and that the secretary did reply to my correspondence. I apologize to him. He did nothing about the matter, but that’s to be expected.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Prince Edward-Lennox (Mr. Taylor) has been good enough to yield so that I might make a government statement at this point. It is somewhat longer than a normal government statement and it was thought that it would better fit as a contribution to the debate on the Speech from the Throne -- which I trust, sir, meets with your approval?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I might say that it meets with my approval. I’m not so certain that it might meet with the approval of all of the members of the House. Do all the members of the House agree that this may be proceeded with in the manner suggested?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"Why need we agree? He has a right to enter the debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I think that the hon. minister did not suggest that he was going to present this as a part of the Speech from the Throne."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, he did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Did he say that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I apologize to the hon. members. Proceed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Why is he stealing the Minister of Education’s thunder?"
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
THRONE SPEECH DEBATE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Yes, he does not agree, I might say.",
"Mr. Speaker, I want to make some remarks today about energy and to put certain matters on the record and that’s the reason I have intruded on the time of my colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells). Since this is a contribution to the Throne debate, sir, I of course, join with others in congratulating the hon. members for Timiskaming (Mr. Havrot) and Brantford (Mr. Beckett) for the very excellent contributions which they made to the debate. I, of course, add my respect for you, sir, and echo the sentiments of all of us that we are glad to see you back in the chair and in such obvious good health and good humour.",
"It is now over seven weeks since the first ministers’ conference on energy convened. The overriding concern at that conference was the design of an energy policy that would result in an adequate and secure supply of energy at a reasonable price for all Canadians.",
"It was predictable that in view of the circumstances which had developed since the conference was called, the major emphasis should be on oil and natural gas, and in particular on oil. Oil is a vitally important energy source; it is readily trans- portable. Canada has regions that produce surpluses and regions that are deficient; further, some part of the oil-deficient regions are served with oil from domestic sources and some from offshore. The potential for different oil prices in the different regions of Canada and the major and contrasting economic impact on the various regions obviously resulted in different perspectives and different concerns.",
"We are all well aware of the accomplishments and the failures that marked the progress of that conference. It did result in the discussion of short- and long-term energy issues. It defined some of the clear differences of viewpoint as between the consuming and producing provinces. Some common ground was established. There was some agreement on certain broad goals. But there was no clear agreement as to the proper answer to the urgent question of appropriate arrangements for adequacy and security of oil supply and the more difficult problem of the price level at which oil might move in trade within Canada.",
"The broad goals of agreement were itemized at that time. It might not be inappropriate to remind hon. members as to the general nature of those goals, as enunciated at the time in a summary statement by the Prime Minister of Canada.",
"The long-term energy policy of Canada should aim at self-sufficiency in energy and should comprehend all forms of energy.",
"Two, whatever solutions are worked out should be sensitive to and subject to national development policy.",
"Three, any solution must take into account the legitimate desires of the producing provinces to develop industries based on their own resources and to reduce their dependence on primary industry.",
"Four, solutions should be consistent with the basic fiscal arrangements and the existing constitutional provisions.",
"Five, there should be one domestic price for crude oil, subject to adjustments for transportation costs; this price might have to be higher than the price at which oil for domestic consumption was frozen, but should be lower than the price at which oil was moving in international trade. Consideration would be given to phasing-in any domestic price adjustments over time.",
"Six, export prices for Canadian oil should be the price at which oil was moving in world markets.",
"Seven, the solutions for the various problems should be sought on a federal-provincial basis, with appropriate mechanisms to assist.",
"Now, sir, these goals were contained in Ontario’s opening statement at the conference, and they have been accepted by the government of Ontario for some time. However, the urgent question of pricing was not solved. It was, in fact, deferred for 60 days.",
"The broad goals of the policy had been agreed to on the first day of the conference. The question of pricing was dealt with on the second day. A short-term compromise agreement restrained prices for a stated interval, and procedures were adopted that would prevent any further deterioration of the relative position of that part of Canada to the east of the national oil policy line.",
"I should like to refresh the memory of hon. members as to the actual substance of that 60-day agreement.",
"The voluntary restraint on crude oil prices at about $4 a barrel was to continue until the end of March.",
"Saskatchewan, which produces some 15 per cent of the national production of oil, was to be permitted to increase the price of oil by $1 a barrel effective Feb. 1.",
"The export tax on oil was to continue to be levied; half of the resulting revenues were to be returned to the producing provinces.",
"The federal government was to cushion any further increase in the price of imported crude oil to prevent a further widening of the price differential on the two sides of the Ottawa Valley line.",
"That agreement as to price and price policy will continue in force until the end of this month. As of that date, a policy that is of a more permanent nature will presumably come into effect.",
"The time made available for policy design through this temporary expedient has been used for holding bilateral meetings between the government of Canada and the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan -- the two major producing provinces.",
"In these meetings it is reasonable to assume that the immediate interests of the producing provinces in higher prices for petroleum and gas is being vigorously advanced. It would be surprising if these views correspond in every aspect with those of the consuming areas of Canada and, indeed, in some ways with the aggregate interest of the nation.",
"The Ontario government, representing the major consuming province in Canada, has a responsibility to voice its concern and has been doing so.",
"So I propose today to discuss with hon. members the implications of possible pricing policies and, concurrently, to place firmly and publicly on the record the attitude of the government of Ontario to energy policy in general and oil and natural gas policies in particular.",
"I know that hon. members are well aware of the implications of the pressures that the increase in world oil prices is visiting on the economies of many of the industrialized nations of the world. Japan, which consumed oil at a rate of close to five million barrels a day last year, had to import 99.7 per cent of the oil that it used. France, Britain, West Germany -- most of the industrialized countries of the western world -- were in similar situations. The United States and Canada are in a more fortunate position. The United States has to rely on offshore sources for only about one-third of the 15-million-plus barrels a day that it uses. Canada’s total production just exceeds its consumption, but exports of roughly 50 per cent of production are made up by imports.",
"For the oil-deficient countries, the implications in terms of balance of payments, inflation and the prices of goods produced for domestic consumption and export are immense. And the increase in the oil bill of the so-called third world countries at about $10 billion a year, throws additional strain on economies that are already under severe pressure.",
"And so in this incredibly changed world Canada -- and really only Canada -- finds itself in a remarkably favourable position. The price of commodities is rising. This nation is rich in commodities. The price of energy and supplies of energy have altered to the disadvantage of the industrial nations of the western world -- nations that have grown fat on a diet of cheap resources. And among these industrial nations, Canada alone produces more oil, more gas, more energy than it consumes. And in addition to the energy we produce and use, we have immense re- sources of energy in the oil sands, the heavy oils, in the frontier regions, in the uranium mines and coal deposits.",
"The current situation can enable this nation to broaden in locational and technological terms the fabric of our industry. Ontario, with Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd., has already demonstrated the immense benefit of adding technology to a proven resource base in the design and construction of CANDU reactors -- a nuclear generating system that relies on our reserves of uranium. Similar opportunities exist in terms of the petroleum resources of this nation. Price, and policy that truly reflects the national interest, can result in a solid foundation for continuing growth for the remainder of the decade and beyond.",
"I quite understand the position being taken by Saskatchewan and Alberta. They have seen the world oil price move up to about $10.50 a barrel. Naturally they want to merchandise their product at that price. But what relevance does that price really have to the marketplace -- the workings of supply and demand? It is a phoney price, a manipulated price, a price designed by those producing nations that have joined together into the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries. That price bears no relationship to cost; it bears no relationship to the long-term supply prospects; it bears no relationship to anything other than the calculated judgement of a group of monopolists as to what the market will bear for the foreseeable future.",
"In fact, the suggestion made by the government of Canada at the national energy conference was that the wellhead price of oil would be allowed to move up to $6 a barrel. Certainly this suggestion did not gain the endorsement of the producing provinces. But I think it important that hon. members should be well aware that such a price means an increase of approximately six cents a gallon for our heating oil and gasoline. This implies an increase of some $350 million in the energy bill of the Ontario consumer.",
"If the price in Canada were allowed to move up to the present world price -- about $10.50 a barrel -- the additional cost to Ontario oil users would be in excess of $1 billion a year, very close to 20 cents a gallon for fuel oil or gasoline. This, obviously, would not be in the interests of Ontario or of the national economy. The disruption and distortion would be frightful. The impacts of similar increases on all other provinces have been estimated and are indicated in tables which I am placing on the record and which are attached to this statement.",
"I apologize to the members for developing this argument at length. I do so because I urgently desire the understanding and support of all members of this Legislature in the matter of the price of oil. I wish to underline our absolute conviction that escalating our domestic price of oil up to existing world prices flies in the face of the national interest. I am not simply enunciating a position which favours Ontario. We must also ensure that the benefits of the lower price are truly dispersed across the country.",
"The hard fact is that the challenge to Canada is an industrial and a development challenge. They know very well in France and Britain and Japan and the United States that you cannot insulate the cost of energy from your national industrial planning pro- cesses. We had better learn that fact here. If we escalate the price of petroleum to current world levels, we will have a rich Alberta largely at the expense of the rest of Canada. We would be turning our back on nation building and focusing attention on the building of great economies in the oil producing provinces.",
"But if we hold the price of oil to a reasonable level, if we process our resources, if we strengthen our capital position, if we do this -- and we can do this -- we can provide jobs for our people, good jobs. We can build our capital strength. We can increase domestic control of our corporations and of our resources. We can build an economically powerful nation. We can protect the long-term welfare of all the people in all parts of our nation. The United States has immense resources of energy and a highly sophisticated technology. It is surely imprudent to make the facile assumption that the United States will fail in its stated national purpose of achieving self-sufficiency in energy. If it does achieve domestic self-sufficiency the control of the price of energy in the United States will become a domestic matter. In that case projecting the actual level of cost of energy or price of energy in the United States a decade from now becomes a highly speculative undertaking. If ill-advised pricing policies in Canada today result in our costs of production of energy and industrial goods being distorted upwards, relative to those of the United States, we will have done much more than simply lose a few years of relative advantage. We can easily find that we have built costs into our industry that result in that industry being unable to compete in major markets.",
"As I noted, the price of oil suggested by the government of Canada at the national energy conference was $6 a barrel. That is high. That is a 50 per cent increase from a price base into which there is already embedded a significant increase. It represents a one per cent increase in the consumer price index. But, as we have said before, subject to a very significant proviso, the people of Ontario can live with it and, subject to the same proviso, it will not too brutally prejudice the opportunities that, as a nation, we should be seizing.",
"The proviso is that this is not the first step on the rung of a ladder that will automatically carry us on to $7 a barrel, then $8, and on up to whatever the world monopoly price might be. Our pricing policy must be flexible enough to reflect changing costs of exploration, production and distribution in Canada and legitimate changes in world, particularly US, prices. And this could mean lowering prices as well as raising prices.",
"I now wish to discuss with the House five other aspects of energy policy in Canada, primarily with respect to oil.",
"1. Export policy and export levies: At the present time we are prepared to support the continued export of oil from western Canada to the United States. There are several reasons why we do not oppose this export in spite of the fact that Canada lacks the reserves to assure adequate domestic supplies late in this decade. We have obligations to a customer, not to mention contracts, and these should not be lightly disregarded. Further, perhaps of greater significance, we do not have the pipelines and the transportation facilities in position to move the oil that we now are exporting to the United States into the areas east of the Borden line. Capturing an export levy, which can be used to cushion the higher energy costs in these regions of Canada, higher costs that are inherent in the higher world price for oil, is also of clear benefit to many Canadians.",
"This is a policy position that we would anticipate will change. Certainly, when the transportation facilities are in position and this nation has achieved a real ability to be self-sufficient in energy, the oil export policy must be reviewed in the light of national interest at that time.",
"2. The allocation of resulting revenues: This aspect of policy is the allocation of the revenues that accrue as a consequence of the price increase and the oil export levies.",
"Let me underline at this time as a matter of principle we accept that the producing provinces should receive reasonable rewards associated with the oil and gas within their borders. We also accept that the producing provinces should determine the balance of funds that should be directed toward the expansion of reserves within their borders, whether through the direct involvement of the provincial government in exploration and development of fossil fuel or through flowing certain funds through to the privately-owned producing companies. But we would argue that the development of these resources, irrespective of the vehicle employed, must take into account the long-term energy needs of all of Canada and must be within the framework of an appropriate national energy policy.",
"We would observe that the federal government proposal for allocating revenues resulting from higher prices and the export levy between the producing provinces, private industry and itself appears to be unnecessarily complicated. We would support additional revenue from the price increases remaining with the producing province concerned, but we would suggest that the proceeds from the export tax be dedicated to the benefit of all Canadian consumers. This should take the form of a cushion against the higher priced oil bought on the world market by those east of the Ottawa line.",
"3. Fiscal arrangements: Changing oil prices, reinforced by changing natural gas prices, have an enormous potential for distorting the existing fiscal arrangements of the nation. The sums involved are huge. Price increases will result in greatly increased revenues flowing to the producing provinces and this, in turn, will create new liabilities to certain of the provinces under the equalization agreements. And I would refer members again to the tables which are attached to this statement.",
"We have made some rough estimates of the impacts on each province arising from these added oil revenues. For example, a rise in the domestic price of oil to $6 a barrel increases the charge on Canadian consumers by almost $1.5 billion a year. Assuming that of this sum $500 million was a return to the producing companies to stimulate research and exploration, nearly $1 billion would pass as direct revenue to the producing provinces. Alberta alone would receive approximately $850 million -- a sum that approaches half of that province’s current annual budget.",
"It is perfectly obvious that the massive infusion of new revenue that would accrue to the producing provinces, as a consequence of raising the price of oil to $6, will not be matched in the other provinces. An established principle of Confederation is that, to the extent practicable, fiscal imbalances between provinces should be corrected.",
"If the full amount of the $1 billion going to the producing provinces were made subject to equalization, some $350 million a year would be required from the federal treasury for additional equalization payments, to the Atlantic provinces, Quebec and Manitoba. Because of its oil revenues, Saskatchewan would find its equalization payments lowered by some $40 million.",
"The potential imbalances are of such a size that their correction would imply the raising of federal taxes or the abridgement of existing programmes. Either expedient would impact on the taxpayers and residents of Ontario.",
"These effects are a result of raising the price of oil to $6 a barrel. If the price of oil should be allowed to go to $10.50 a barrel, the additional revenue accruing to the producing provinces would total over $4 billion and Ontario could actually be eligible for equalization payments of over $600 million, since our revenue raising capacity would be below the national average.",
"Now, I would hope nobody can be serious in suggesting a price of $10.50 a barrel. Such a price is unthinkable when it is clearly recognized that even a price of $6 a barrel throws severe strains on the fiscal arrangements in Canada.",
"Alberta has consistently maintained that oil revenues should be treated as a capital return on a depleting resource -- that these revenues should not be included in the calculation of equalization payments. If this were accepted, it would further exacerbate the existing regional disparities within the nation. One must have some sympathy for the attitude of the producing provinces but, certainly, such a procedure would be unacceptable to the people resident in the eastern provinces.",
"Ontario has always supported the principle of equalization. We still do and, certainly, we would favour either the inclusion of a proportion -- perhaps quite a substantial proportion -- of these additional revenues in the equalization base or a ceiling on the total of equalization payments.",
"This is a very difficult area and it is going to require a measure of compromise.",
"The fourth element of a national oil policy relates to the urgent necessity of assuring that we do not balkanize this nation in terms of the price of oil.",
"At the energy conference, Ontario vigorously espoused the cause of a single price for crude oil in all parts of Canada, subject to a differential related to delivery costs, and we hold to this view. The only real question is the equitable distribution of the cost burden that is implicit.",
"The simplest and most effective way of assuring this equitable price relationship is to directly cushion the refiners of higher priced, imported crude oil and to realize the necessary funds from the export tax associated with crude oil that is exported from Canada. In the longer term, pipelines or oil discoveries on the eastern seaboard may modify the necessity of this policy.",
"In the meantime, most assuredly, national policy should not result in the disruption of the economies of the provinces to the east of Ontario that presently rely on high-priced oil from foreign sources. Given that the oil now being exported is Canadian oil, it seems logical that it should contribute to the achievement of this national price equity.",
"The export tax revenues would provide a cushion of approximately $1.5 billion for consumers in the Atlantic provinces, Quebec and that part of Ontario east of the Borden line.",
"The final aspect of oil policy that I wish to discuss today relates to the administrative mechanisms that will be required to deal with such matters as the setting of price, the cushioning of price in some of the more exposed regions of Canada and other policy matters, quite possibly including the export of oil and other basic sources of energy.",
"Clearly this divides into mechanisms to deal with both the short and the long term. The time constraints are now so severe that a vehicle that can deal with the immediate price problems is needed. At the same time, a more sophisticated mechanism will be required for the implementation of energy policy in the longer term in Canada, including the adjustment of domestic prices. Much closer federal-provincial consultation will be necessary.",
"The government of Canada has proposed a national marketing board. To the extent that the powers of such a board might extend beyond pricing considerations, Ontario would have reservations. Indeed, a new organization is not inevitably necessary. The continuation of the existing federal government procedures for compensating the consumers of the imported, higher priced oil might be adequate provided that there is joint federal- provincial decision making.",
"The Ministry of Energy is exploring the feasibility of various methods of equalizing crude oil across Canada, one of which is a system of “tickets.” These tickets would be issued to all refineries of crude oil to enable them to purchase rights to acquire Canadian crude. The tickets would be allocated to the refineries of both domestic and foreign crude in amounts that would result in the equalizing of crude oil prices throughout Canada.",
"Now, sir, this discussion covers the major policy concerns relative to oil. Obviously, however, the national economic impacts will further be re-enforced by changes in the price of natural gas. The Alberta and Southern Gas Co. Ltd. agreed in January of this year to pay a field price for gas of 56 cents per mcf, effective July 1.",
"It should be pointed out that virtually all of the Alberta and Southern gas is gas for export, but export prices surely should not set domestic prices. If the 56-cent price became universal then the producing provinces will receive annually an additional $400 million in royalties, of which Alberta will receive $250 million. Ontario consumers would pay an additional $300 million each year.",
"It would be perhaps useful to digress for a moment about our supply of natural gas, which is also a concern to Ontario. Consider these points:",
"TransCanada Pipe Lines Ltd, and others are expressing concern that the supply of natural gas from the southwest sedimentary basin has plateaued.",
"Additional supplies from Alberta will be much more expensive to produce, if, as and when found and proven.",
"Mackenzie Delta and Polar Gas projects are promising, but like the oil sands are long=term alternatives. They will ultimately be available, but more expensive sources of supply.",
"Ontario supports the oil sands, has announced its interest in Polar Gas and will participate in the Mackenzie pipeline hearings. Again, however, I stress that these are long-term thrusts to ensure future capacity for self-sufficiency.",
"The problem, sir, is now. We detailed the other day the presently frustrated plans of two Ontario companies who want to spend $100 million each to produce anhydrous ammonia for desperately needed fertilizer production -- fertilizer needed now in Ontario and for export of a Canadian value added product. These plans are in danger of not proceeding because of their inability to purchase natural gas.",
"Reverting to price, it must be remembered that an enlarged petrochemical industry, be it in Alberta, Ontario, or Quebec, faces tough competition from, for example, the Gulf Coast where natural gas prices are still regulated and as a result, low-priced.",
"The National Energy Board last summer sat on an application by Dome Petroleum Ltd. and Dow Chemical of Canada Ltd. to export a relatively small amount of natural gas as ethane and ethylene. No decision has been given, presumably because the board is finding difficulty in deciding that the gas is surplus to Canada’s needs. Yet we continue to export, essentially as a raw material, almost as much natural gas as we consume.",
"Pan-Alberta Gas Ltd., Gaz Metropolitain and others continue to talk about new and additional exports of gas. Even if Dow-Dome were approved, we would submit that there is no room for additional exports. Rather, we suggest, as does Mr. Eric Kierans and others, that Canada’s needs are such that we may have to examine whether existing exports can be continued at current levels.",
"The situation, sir, is a little unreal.",
"It is easy to acquiesce in the argument that higher prices will solve all natural gas problems. Higher prices to governments or to producers or to both? We do not subscribe that higher prices, with windfall profits, to either industry or government, are a cure-all palliative.",
"Ontario is prepared to support a price that returns to gas producers their cost of production and a rate of return that will encourage exploration and the development of additional reserves. We are opposed to any proposal to index or key the price of gas to a so-called competitive price of oil. We accept a two- price system that distinguishes between “old” or “flowing” gas, and we will pay a higher price for pew gas. Such a pricing procedure would encourage exploration and lead to the development of new or additional reserves.",
"We support Alberta in its effort to design the best possible procedures for managing its fossil fuel resources. We have done so in the past. Since 1961, we have paid a higher price than would have been necessary had we been unwilling to lend our support to the development of the Alberta petroleum industry.",
"As we have in the past, we support the Alberta aspiration to build a strong base of secondary industry and, in particular, accept that there is justification for the development of a petrochemical industry close to the source of supply of fossil fuels, subject, of course, to the legitimate expectations of the existing petrochemical industry in Ontario and Quebec.",
"We have already begun, through the agency of Ontario Hydro, a $10-million test programme to determine the feasibility of mining, transporting and burning western coal in thermal generating stations in this province. If successful, this could result in the negotiation of contracts for some five million tons of coal from western Canada and would result in Ontario again providing needed stimulation for a western Canadian coal industry, as was provided by Ontario in the 1960s for the oil industry.",
"On uranium, Ontario is in a favourable position compared to fossil fuels, as about 80 per cent of all proven Canadian reserves are located within our boundaries. Our policy as to the development of these uranium resources is entirely consistent with our attitude towards oil and gas. Uranium should be considered as a national commodity to be managed in the national interest.",
"In view of the crucial importance of this resource to the future growth of the nuclear industry both in Ontario and elsewhere, the government will shortly be making a more detailed statement on uranium, and I leave my thoughts on that subject at this point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"What about the supply? Is it secure?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Enough for our needs?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Yes, for the time being.",
"As in the past, Ontario is prepared to support policies that serve the national interest and that do minimum violence to the producing and consuming regions of Canada. Ontario is prepared to co-operate in all reasonable ways in assuring, for the producing regions, the achievement of their legitimate aspirations with respect to the development of their economies. We do not consider that the disruption and distortion of the national economy and the prejudicing of the long-term economic prospects of the nation can be defined as legitimate.",
"Ontario’s objective is a reasonable and stable resolution of the question of oil arid gas pricing within Canada. We submit that the position outlined is reasonable and can result in an environment for growth and development and more or less equalized economic opportunity in all parts of this nation. We do not think that the national interest is served by excessively high prices, interminable negotiations or persistent uncertainty. If this is the prospect, then it is the clear duty of the government of Canada to exert its power and exercise necessary leadership. We believe it has the constitutional power to regulate prices at the wellhead if that should be necessary.",
"The government of Canada should, however, be guided in all its policies by the demonstrable interest of all Canadians, in both the producing and the consuming regions of the nation. It should assure, very simply, security of supply of needed energy resources at a reasonable price.",
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker.",
"Mr. Gaunt moves the adjournment of the debate.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
YORK COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION TEACHERS DISPUTE ACT, 1974
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there are two regrettable things about the circumstances around the introduction of this bill yesterday. In my view, the most regrettable is that it does achieve a solution by compulsory arbitration under circumstances which have become extremely familiar, not only to us in this House, but to the students and the parents in the York area.",
"The second regrettable thing -- and I’m not sure this really isn’t one that is almost unforgivable -- is that the minister delayed so long in expressing in a strong and effective way that pupil-teacher ratios were to be negotiated. In fact, through this bill he has dictated to the local board what they them- selves were unwilling to accept over these many weeks -- in fact, 10 months -- of continuing negotiations.",
"Frankly, I had thought that with the introduction of Bill 275 in 1973 that the statement there on the right to negotiate all matters pertaining to conditions of employment did clearly include the right of the teachers to negotiate the pupil-teacher ratio. We are aware of the sensitivity of this matter, since many teachers feel substantially that they have as much responsibility to deal with the quality of education as anyone, perhaps more than anyone else. But they also see, because of the planning of the Ministry of Education, because of the number of people who’ve gone into education as a profession, that more than half of the graduates from the colleges of education last year were unable to obtain employment.",
"In other words, there is a substantial pressure on those who presently hold teaching positions, unless they conform to the requirements of their board and their administrators, that they can very readily be replaced. In many aspects, this fear is substantially unfounded. The teachers through their professional organizations have a great deal of protection, which we hear of from time to time. Still their contention has been clear and unequivocal, that they have the right to negotiate pupil-teacher ratios -- essentially, how many teachers a specific board will hire to carry out their responsibilities.",
"This has been substantially opposed by almost all the boards of education and the trustees as individuals. In the case of the York board, it has become a matter of basic faith. They have expressed themselves in this regard as individuals from time to time. They have said, as many people would agree, that the school board, democratically elected, has to represent the rights of the community to run the school. One of the basic rights is to decide how many teachers they need in order to achieve their goals for education and achieve the quality that they establish for themselves.",
"This oversimplification of the standoff -- and a standoff it certainly has been -- has been in many respects obscured by the intervention of the minister previously. There is, for example, the intervention of ceilings. Under these circumstances, in this particular negotiation and the arbitration which will come about if this bill follows its intended course, the salary negotiations are not going to require, let’s say a breaking of the ceiling that has been imposed. Yet it has interfered with the full and free negotiations, both in York and elsewhere, since the minister has assumed a specific budgetary control, by Act of this Legislature, and by the imposition of the ceilings across the province. But the bill itself -- and the specific area is in section 2, subsection 2, and I quote it: “Pupil-teacher ratio is arbitrable and shall be deemed to be included as a matter in dispute in the notices referred to in subsection 1.”",
"While the minister may say this is not a departure in his own policy, it is seen to be a departure by the trustees in York, I would submit. In fact, it is the clearest enunciation of his acceptance of the fact that he believes, and therefore the government believes, that conditions of work, pupil-teacher ratio specifically, must be negotiable in the future and are, under these circumstances, arbitrable.",
"The teachers themselves have suffered from a great deal of community criticism based on a misunderstanding of these circumstances. We are aware that the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation, bargaining on behalf of the teachers in the area, has refused to go to voluntary arbitration because of the doubt, at least, about the arbitrable basis for the pupil-teacher ratio.",
"Many people have said, “The teachers’ case must be weak otherwise they would submit it to voluntary arbitration.” But they have held, and I believe that they are correct in this, that they are not prepared to accept an arbitration as to whether or not pupil- teacher ratios will be, in the long run, negotiable between teachers and boards.",
"This is a matter, obviously, of high policy. The minister recognized it as such and included it in section 2, subsection 2, of the bill which, in fact, dictated to the board members in York -- and I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, makes it clear to all other boards of education in the province -- that this matter is, in fact, arbitrable in this bill and must therefore be negotiable in the contacts between the teachers and the schoolboards across this province in the future.",
"This is a substantial breakthrough. The minister may feel that his statement in the clause in Bill 275, in the previous session of the Legislature, was sufficient. But he knows, as we all know, that whether it was wilful misunderstanding or an unwillingness to accept the minister at his word, most trustees were not prepared to agree that pupil-teacher ratios were a matter for negotiation or arbitration. This has changed and it could have been changed six weeks ago or two months ago or even three months ago. Many of the problems that the government experienced in late 1973 with the introduction of Bill 274 and with the protracted negotiations in the York area were therefore unnecessary.",
"The minister is aware of the level of ill-feeling which has developed among the teachers and the board directed at him and other people. He is also aware of the removal of the education services to the students and he, probably more than anyone else, speaks of this and I’m not saying that he does so improperly. I simply say it is unfortunate that a clear statement with regard to this matter was not made in good time so that, in fact, the negotiations in York might have been brought to a successful conclusion without the imposition of a bill of the type that is before us.",
"I have mentioned to you, Mr. Speaker, previously in my remarks to this House that I have been in the York region in my capacity as Leader of the Opposition. I was requested to attend meetings of the teachers and did so in Aurora and Newmarket. They were there in force to hear my remarks and the remarks made by the education critic for the NDP and also to extend their views and their questions to us.",
"It was interesting indeed to talk to individual teachers and representatives of the OSSTF pertaining to the eight points at variance which had not been settled under the normal conditions of negotiation. Obviously, salary establishment and salary levels was one matter of some concern. They felt that they deserved a similar salary schedule compared with Metropolitan Toronto and certain jurisdictions nearby. And no one could condemn them for that. When close questioned, many of the teachers were not directly aware of where their salary schedules fell substantially below the schedule in nearby jurisdictions although, of course, the information was available.",
"The point I am making is this; that while there was a negotiable item pertaining to salaries, in my opinion it was not one upon which the six weeks’ strike and the bitterness associated with this matter could be based.",
"There were other matters that they brought forward very strongly to my attention, one particularly. They felt that the administration was unfair in insisting on a provision that would permit the school board to hire specialists, category 4 teachers, and then assign them to duties where they would not be teaching in their specialty and therefore would be paid at a lower category level.",
"In my opinion this is unfair. But, once again, it is a matter surely which could have been negotiated without going to the lengths which separated the board and the teachers for these many weeks -- and, in fact, 10 months.",
"One matter is of personal nature, which I raised in my reply to the Speech from the Throne last Friday. It is an unfortunate one; and that is the high feeling among the teachers against the director of education himself in that area.",
"I can remember discussing the matter before one of the meetings. When I mentioned that it had been made apparent to me by the individual teachers that they had no confidence in the director of education, the applause -- which, as you know, Mr. Speaker, politicians are very sensitive to -- was prolonged and hearty. This was an indication to anyone who was there that there was a substantial breakdown in the confidence between the teachers who were responding in that meeting -- and there were about 400 of them -- and the director of education himself.",
"Someone came up to me and said: “I wish the school board realized that we would trade 670 resignations for one.” The implication was that they were asking for his dismissal or resignation from his position of high responsibility.",
"It is interesting that this matter pertaining to administration did not surface more formally -- or at least according to the reports that were available -- in the continuing negotiations. I think it is a matter that must be dealt with frankly, as I trust that we can raise it here without personal references of a seriously damaging matter. I simply put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that it was an issue lying below the eight which were specifically referred to in the formal negotiations, but is a very real issue indeed.",
"But the other real issue had to do with the negotiation of the conditions of work. The trustees, as I have said, were adamant in their refusal that pupil-teacher ratios were negotiable. The teachers, reflecting Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation policy, were just as adamant that they as teachers must have, and were prepared to demand, the right to negotiate -- not dictate, surely -- but negotiate the staffing under the jurisdiction of the board.",
"It was on this shoal that the ship of negotiation stuck, in fact floundered, for so long. The board completely failed in their attempts to bring about a successful conclusion to the negotiations. It was in my view that because they were adamant on this single point that the negotiations failed.",
"The minister has, along with his leader, been substantially critical of statements made by me and my colleagues which they construe as being an infringement on the autonomy of that board. But surely, Mr. Speaker, you are aware that the provisions in this bill in section 2, subsection 2, directly dictate that the matter that the local board had consistently refused to accept must now be accepted. And that subsection, of course, casts an entirely new complexion on the whole negotiation.",
"I have had an opportunity to talk to a limited number of teachers concerned since the bill was introduced. Frankly, I have been surprised at the strength of their continuing opposition. Obviously Bill 274, and the tabling of Bill 275, sensitized all teachers to the dangers and created their feelings of repugnance associated with compulsory arbitration. It is a feeling we share and leads us to vote against the principle of this bill.",
"But it seems to me that there is an alternative which might still be achieved by the board and the teachers if the trustees now realize that they cannot continue their adamant opposition to the acceptance of pupil-teacher ratio as a negotiable matter.",
"I would be the last to suggest any significant further delay in this matter. We have already had a six-week strike, there is a week’s vacation coming up, and somehow or other I have the feeling that the idea that school will start there Monday while it doesn’t continue in other parts of the province is not going to be well accepted -- no doubt many parents and students have made vacation plans. I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that while it is an interesting alternative, I have a feeling that the schools in York will remain closed next week as they will be closed elsewhere.",
"But it appears to me that there now are grounds for the teachers and the board to come together, because while the teachers are substantially offended by the compulsion in this bill leading to arbitration, there is no doubt that the trustees are offended by the compulsion associated with the pupil-teacher ratio.",
"The minister said it yesterday when he introduced the bill. He said, “Some people are going to say this favours the teachers, some will say this favours the board.” Well, in my reading of it, there is a substantial dictation to both groups concerned. Our objection is that this particular procedure is unnecessary.",
"If the minister were going to replace his judgement for the board’s judgement, he might very well have done it under legislation already on the books and assumed a role of trusteeship under these circumstances, since he and others were unwilling to accept the adamant position of the board that pupil- teacher ratios were not to be negotiated or arbitrated.",
"In other words, he has replaced his judgement for the board’s under these circumstances. It could have been done under present legislation without using the power, the undoubted power of this Legislature to command a return of the teachers under the circumstances of compulsory arbitration.",
"Mr. Speaker, there are many matters that could be thrashed over in this continuing circumstance, which no one wants to delay for any significant period of time, other than to see that the views are essentially put before the public for their consideration.",
"Mr. Speaker, I know you will permit me to digress from my remarks for a moment to welcome, along with you, sir, our good friend, the member for Nipissing (Mr. R. S. Smith), who is back in his place in the Legislature after an illness. We are delighted to have him back.",
"In closing my remarks, Mr. Speaker, I simply put it to you this way: Essentially, two things have happened. The minister, in expressing the policy of the government in 1973, said that he was not prepared to allow any schools to close. Well, in fact the schools in York did close. The teachers, as we have said -- and we have been criticized for it, but we believe we are right -- have the right to withdraw their services or to strike under these circumstances. Their objections to their negotiations with the board have been made clear on a regular basis in a number of specific and well-prepared statements and in reports in the press.",
"But the whole thing floundered because the trustees were unwilling to accept the pupil-teacher ratio as a significant arbitrable or negotiable item.",
"The minister through this bill has interposed his judgement for the board’s in this regard. We are saying that he could have done so in a different way. He could have done so months ago with a clear and unequivocal statement of government policy in this regard. I would like to hear him eventually express his views as to whether he feels he did that or not, but I simply draw to his attention an interesting report in the Globe and Mail this morning, wherein certain trustees on the York board said they specifically asked the minister whether in his opinion they should accept this as a negotiable item and that he refused to answer.",
"Now this is reported, and I think he should make it clear as to whether or not his position was known by the board. Certainly, if the board members were unaware of his position, it is unforgivable and, in fact, it means that the minister was personally responsible for this six-week delay and the closing of the schools. That is a very serious statement to make indeed but one which I believe to be true. He should have taken all of the measures available to him -- and they are almost unlimited -- in his position of eminence and power in this regard to indicate to the trustees that this matter had to be negotiable. Now, all of a sudden, the decision is made by the government that six weeks is long enough and it comes out with this particular bill coercing the teachers and, in fact, coercing the board. The teachers are required to go back to work; the board is required to negotiate or, in this case, arbitrate these matters.",
"We regret that the strike has been so prolonged. We believe that the length of the strike was unnecessary if the government’s position had been made clear. We are not prepared to support the position taken in the bill with regard to compulsory arbitration and we’ll therefore vote against it in principle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, most of us, I suspect, have neither stomach nor heart for this particular debate and wish that it didn’t have to happen at all. I would wish to see it as one item in isolation. I am assuming that the York county dispute is a separate and distinct phenomenon in the Province of Ontario, never to be repeated again and, hopefully, not ever to be used as a reason to spawn further legislation of a comparable kind. I think that while people will clearly remember this day, the government may also regret this day because I have yet to be persuaded that this kind of legislation need ever have been brought be- fore the House.",
"I want to comment on three areas, not at great length -- some of my colleagues will elaborate on certain of those areas -- and then make a few final observations. The obvious areas are those of the board, the teachers and the government.",
"Let me start with the board, Mr. Speaker. There are too many tender sensibilities about the board in York county. There is too much hesitation, too much inhibition, too much constraint when dealing with the board in York county. When a board is as dramatic a throw-back to archaic and reactionary views of education -- as is the case in York county -- when a board, almost single-handedly, serves to undermine the education system for 14,000 students and, by implication, jeopardizes it for a great many others, I think it is our responsibility to deal with that board directly. The attitudes the board displayed, the behaviour the board displayed, the devices the board used were ultimately destructive and there is no way of disowning that. There is no way of concealing it or forgetting it or scrapping it, simply by saying they are elected representatives and have local autonomy.",
"If any government, if any opposition party, if any group of elected politicians behaved that irresponsibly, then they must be confronted. I don’t know that there is a more shocking display of irresponsibility on the part of any board in the province than has been shown by York county. It has some competitors. The minister will never admit it -- it’s not the minister’s job to admit it -- but I suspect that as the minister tramped around Ontario dealing with the 15 outstanding disputes in the month of January, he ran into one or two boards -- the Windsor separate board comes to my mind, Mr. Speaker -- which might have sent shivers down the spine of any educational reformer and any man of goodwill in the field of education. It is wrong for a board to behave in this fashion. And I think it is also wrong -- most of us in this caucus feel it is wrong -- for it to have been tolerated so long by the Minister of Education. But more of that anon, Mr. Speaker.",
"It made for the teachers in York county an impossible situation, an absolutely impossible situation. You have a group of teachers who feel somewhat oppressed. You have a group of teachers working within rules, regulations and contractual arrangements, which none of us in this room would tolerate for a moment. And then you have the teachers expected to enter into negotiations with a board which behaved in good faith in its majority. Not all of its members, because most of the votes for the last two or three weeks have been 12 to eight -- there have been eight members of that board fighting back -- but the majority of the members of that board frankly, Mr. Speaker, simply evoked fear and anger and resentment and rigidity on the part of the teachers with whom they were to negotiate. And who can blame the teachers for it? Who can blame them for it? It’s as if you took a time machine and hurtled the York county board back some 50 years and expected it to negotiate in the 1970s on that basis.",
"Now, the most serious charge I can make about that board, Mr. Speaker, and make it quite willingly, because I believe one calls them as one sees them in a situation like this, is that they negotiated in bad faith from the day negotiations began. From that in- credible day when the board wasn’t even sure that it wanted to recognize the OSSTF representatives in York county as the team, the representatives who would bargain on behalf of the larger group of teachers.",
"In January a document on voluntary arbitration was drafted. That document refused to include pupil-teacher ratio as a mandatory arbitrable clause. And so the document went to the teachers and the teachers said, “Well, maybe we’ll accept voluntary arbitration but we think PTR should be mandatory. And we want it in. And we want a number of other items added to the schedule.” And at that point, because the minister still held back, the board threw up its hands and said, “To the devil with you. We’ll not include that in the agreement,” and the voluntary arbitration fell through again on the eve of Jan. 31.",
"And then you have, as the tension mounts, as the pressure builds, as the public consternation accelerates, a board that says to its teachers that “on such and such a date we will accept your resignations and will begin to hire anew.”",
"Now, you tell me, Mr. Speaker, how you are supposed to negotiate in good faith with a school board which says, “We are going to turf you out of your jobs and replace you with anyone we can get our hands on.” And a school board that knows the moment it does that that the various teacher affiliates across the province will condemn it; that it will in fact be blacklisted, pinklisted, or whatever the precise word is -- and that it is immediately arousing the antagonism of the teachers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)",
"text": [
"A violation of the Labour Relations Act of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, my friend from Hamilton East points out that if you were under the Ontario Labour Relations Act you could never get away with that kind of behaviour, because labour relations -- except where York county board is concerned -- usually encompass civilized behaviour.",
"And throughout the negotiating process, Mr. Speaker, well known to the minister, the board played cat and mouse with its individual members. Mr. Honsberger and his right arm, the legal man, Mr. Winkler, did most of the negotiating. There were considerable periods of time when the other trustees didn’t know what the hell was going on. During the period of the blackout, Mr. Speaker, there were trustees on the York county board who knew as little about events as did the teachers. And so within the board there was bad faith bargaining. I mean, even within the tiny structure of 20, things were conducted in bad faith.",
"All of this the minister knew, because the minister was having regular reports from Mr. Mancini, the arbitrator. And behind the whole dispute, in the background of it, seldom of -- why I don’t understand, because when a whole school system grinds to a halt and 14,000 kids are out and parents are up in arms, then we level with each other. But behind it all, looming like the spectre in the back- ground, was the director of education, for whom the teachers felt an anathema so profound that it raised yet another barrier to the possibility of settlement.",
"Ironically, the director of education was over at OISE somewhere through this dispute. There is an acting director of education in York, for whom the teachers have much more gracious feelings. But none of that was spoken of openly and frankly. Better to let the controversy disintegrate than to speak the truth. The teachers in York county put up with more than teachers put up with almost anywhere else in the province.",
"A couple of colleagues and I were in York county just the other night when they met outside at Aurora. I am going to tell you something about our voyage to York county the other night in a moment, Mr. Speaker. We were meeting with some of the teacher leadership in Aurora the other night and they showed us -- it is stupid of me not to have it -- the rules and regulations which govern the activities of teachers within the schools in York county; and what they are required to do by the administration in terms of extra-curricular duties, in terms of special duties for the students, in terms of following unquestioningly and obediently the directive of every principal.",
"The demands placed upon the teachers of York county are preposterous; but very little was said about that in the course of the dispute.",
"So here, Mr. Speaker, you have a board which bargains in bad faith throughout -- the greatest testament to that is the content of this bill -- bargains in bad faith throughout. Nobody ever called their bluff; nobody ever sees that as offensive; everything grinds down. And we finally reach this extremity.",
"Well, I don’t think that there is an excuse for the Ministry of Education in such a situation. I don’t think that the government has the right to allow a board to work in such bad faith and to trample on the rights of teachers for so long.",
"All right then, what of the teachers? Well, despite the provocation -- and surely it was greater than in any other single area in Ontario -- despite the provocation, despite the bad faith bargaining, the teachers hung in there. They kept on making their counter offers. They kept on trying to reach a negotiated settlement. They kept on reasonably and thoughtfully and persuasively suggesting the alternatives. They went to lengths that teachers nowhere else have gone to.",
"When the board wouldn’t accept the traditional definition of PTR, the teachers of York county at the OSSTF level, offered three separate alternative definitions. As a matter of fact, the various alternatives are in the memorandum which the Minister of Education has had included in his schedule of issues, March 7, 1974, to be submitted to voluntary arbitration at the time.",
"The teachers even submitted proposals about which they themselves had qualms in order to get PTR and class size negotiated. Now, the duplicity of the board knows no limits. When I picked up the Globe and Mail this morning I noticed a half-page advertisement from the York County Board of Education listing the things which allegedly they had offered and to which the teachers did not respond.",
"I will tell you, Mr. Speaker -- and I think as the minister knows -- there is an awful lot in that half-page, as judged by this legislation, the truth of which one can question.",
"I would like to know who pays for half-page ads in the Globe and Mail put out by the York County Board of Education to argue their case against the teachers on the same day that the government is settling the dispute. I have a very strong suspicion that the public pays for the advertisements which one side chooses to take to misrepresent the situation. There is something about the way in which the York county board has handled this whole affair which is profoundly offensive in every sense.",
"Every day during the dispute the teachers collected in their centres. I think the minister was mentioning this to me just the other day that the teachers, quite amazingly, got together day after day in the legion halls, or wherever it was that they were gathering, in Richmond Hill and Aurora, and sat and had what would amount to professional development days almost every day.",
"Some of them met with students and provided special support. Some of them invested themselves in some special kind of educational opportunities if kids needed it, but they took seriously their roles as educators and they just didn’t run off. They were there and accountable every day of the strike, every day the schools were closed.",
"They showed a much greater loyalty to the students and to ending the dispute than did the board. But they were so locked into the adversary system, they were in such a straitjacket that it was such an impossible business; this intractable board which took an absolute delight in perversity and a group of teachers who in some ways were kind of bewildered about why it was that they couldn’t reach an agreement.",
"The sum total effect of that is an absolutely natural, normal, human consequence. You get bitter. You get frustrated. You have suspicion. You don’t know whom you can trust any more. So when the opportunity comes along for a settlement of a kind that’s something less than compulsory arbitration, you are not sure you can take it.",
"The minister made such an offer. I think the minister knows that some of us in this party acknowledge the role he played in the month of January, tirelessly, vigorously trying to settle the outstanding disputes. I am more than happy to acknowledge the honourable contents of the document which he submitted to board and teachers for the purpose of voluntary arbitration last Friday and again on Sunday.",
"The document had an Achilles heel. The Achilles heel of the document is that in section 11, there is the use of the word “may” rather than “shall,” which means that it could be construed to read that a board of arbitration appointed may negotiate teacher-pupil ratio rather than shall award on teacher-pupil ratio. I think the Minister of Education, as evidenced by his subsequent act, obviously meant it to be mandatory, but the document didn’t say so. It confirmed in the minds of the teachers again a kind of suspicion that they have about the way the whole relationship was being handled. Unfortunately, the document, honourable in itself, was accompanied by an ultimatum, the time limit ultimatum of 9 o’clock on Monday night. That again forces on men and women of goodwill the kind of irritation and frustration which is not conducive to an immediate settlement.",
"Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you, sir, that the NDP does not oppose voluntary arbitration like some Pavlovian reflex. We don’t like it. Voluntary arbitration only comes into play when everything else has broken down; so what it implies is unhappy. But voluntary arbitration is, after all, the free choice by the parties to a binding agreement. If free choice operates, then presumably it should be one of the roots at the end of the collective bargaining process. Mr. Speaker, in that vein, with that in mind and knowing of the minister’s offer, last night -- I guess it was last night -- my colleague from Port Arthur, the education critic for this party, and my colleague from Riverdale (Mr. Renwick) and I went up north, or went up to Aurora. I call it north because I used to live in Newmarket. Was it Monday night?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"Monday night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right. We went up to Aurora and we attended the demonstration, which was kind of touching in its solidarity but a little touching, too, in what it presaged, because 1,100 or 1,200 people gathered in a little knot on a dark night in an empty field beside the Aurora Civic Centre don’t give one the sense of a crusade. It does give one a sense of isolation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"I am sure the member rose to it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, as a matter of fact I was very subdued by the occasion. I didn’t consider it a mob."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"That’s not what I heard; the Ku Klux Klan!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)",
"text": [
"Is the member sure when he said it was the empty field beside the Civic Centre?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Is he sure he was in Aurora?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, I was in Aurora. It was, in fact --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Is the member for York North sure he is here?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By an empty field I mean the plot of ground beside the parking lot. All right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"I know one place the member for York North was not, when some of us were there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I was going to say something nice about him later on, but not now.",
"Mr. Speaker, after that was over, my colleagues and I journeyed back to Richmond Hill with the teachers. I don’t think it’s any particular secret that we stayed with the OSSTF negotiators from 10 o’clock until about 1 in the morning and we argued very strongly that a document to voluntary arbitration be agreed to. In fact, I don’t think the word plead is too strong.",
"We put to them as strongly as we could that in terms of the York county dispute and in terms of the future collective bargaining arrangements for teachers it made very real sense for them to attempt to find a basis in voluntary arbitration which they could sign and with which they could agree and pre- vent the axe from falling yesterday afternoon.",
"We knew, both in advance and after, that the Minister of Education would probably be flexible in that regard -- he had demonstrated that before -- and that if the teachers could come back with a specific number of items added to the schedule, and with pupil-teacher ratio absolutely ironclad, there might be the basis for a voluntary agreement.",
"As it happens, there was a difference of opinion. We were not as persuasive as we would have wished and the teachers that night and the next morning, meeting together, decided on the basis of all they had known, even on the basis of the next morning, I think yesterday morning, of personal representation from the Minister of Education at the 11th hour, even on that basis, that there were simply no grounds for trust. There had been such a disintegration of trust that it was not possible to pull it together.",
"I must admit, Mr. Speaker, that it was probably easy for us, a group of three interlopers looking at it from outside, to come in and make that kind of recommendation or plea to the teachers. If we had been deeply involved ourselves, I suspect we would have had the same kind of perceptions of the whole situation.",
"Their perceptions were based on the man- handling of the board. Their perceptions were based on Bill 274. Their perceptions were based on the amount of public criticism. Their perceptions did not allow them to believe that the document could be honourable and that they would serve the interests of their members by signing it. After all, their members had turned down voluntary arbitration by overwhelming votes on at least three occasions.",
"I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I wish it had been possible to achieve it that way rather than this way. I think that the compulsory arbitration component of this bill will do very great damage in the long term. It may even do damage in the short term. I don’t know how to measure the feelings of the teachers once they have returned to school.",
"At that point in time the onus wasn’t really on anyone other than the minister and the government, whatever interventions came in from any third party. And the minister and the government failed.",
"I don’t know why they failed all the way down the line. I suspect it’s mostly the straitjacket of Progressive Conservative philosophy. I don’t think the government was behaving Machiavellianly. I don’t think it was, at that point in time, trying to manipulate; although I’m not as sure about the bill now. I simply know that its social philosophy did not permit it to do all the things it should have done from day one which would have ended the dispute early.",
"Let me tell members where the Minister of Education and the government might have intervened. No. 1, when he saw the board was bargaining in bad faith, he should have brought his foot down -- and I would say that for either party.",
"One of the most perplexing and frustrating things about labour relations in this province, relationships on a collective bargaining basis between any group or groups, is that when this government has clear evidence of bad faith it refuses to do anything about it. We have laws which require good faith bargaining but evidence of bad faith means not a tinker’s damn to anyone.",
"And so, despite the chronicled evidence of bad faith, one week after another, even before the crisis began on the part of the board, no one said anything. Even though, in his heart, the Minister of Education harboured profound suspicion about what the board was doing -- probably there were times when he was irritated with the teachers -- at no point did he say, when it was clearly beyond the pale:",
"“Look, you beggars, that’s bad faith bargaining. The public can’t be held up for ransom by your display of bad faith. The kids are being manipulated by the board in this process. You get back to that bargaining table and you make a good faith offer. I, the Minister of Education, direct it.”",
"Someone has to use that kind of authority. Somewhere the people of the province have to feel that good faith bargaining makes sense.",
"So, whether it was the question of who constituted the bargaining unit, or whether it was when they were going to accept their resignations, or back in January when they refused to have pupil-teacher ratio included as a mandatory award clause of the voluntary arbitration agreement, any one of those occasions, Mr. Speaker, would have been sufficient for the minister to say to the board: “I can stand this no longer. I’m going to tell the public what is real. You’re simply not taking this in good faith.”",
"But at no time did he do it. He watched the dispute gradually disintegrate before his eyes and he refused to intervene.",
"Let me tell the minister a second time: On Jan. 30, he had a memorandum from Terry Mancini, conciliation officer from the Ontario Labour Relations Board, telling him in no uncertain terms that pupil-teacher ratio was at issue. A document was drawn up. The board refused to include pupil-teacher ratio as an issue for award. The minister’s refusal to intervene publicly at that point meant that the dispute would continue to March 13 rather than end in the middle of February. Because if he had made Mancini’s report public, or if he had said to the board: “Look,” -- but without any declaration on his part; without the kind of command, the kind of directive that indicates to the world -- “this is unacceptable to me as Minister of Education.”",
"We have to realize what happened here. On Jan. 31, or Feb. 1, whenever it was, the schools closed in York county because the Minister of Education refused to come to grips with what he had been told by his own mediator.",
"Now, had he done that, he could have wrapped up those negotiations in two weeks. He has been close enough to it. So have some of us. We know that if the pupil-teacher ratio had been accepted as arbitrable everything else would have fallen into place in one night. Everybody understood that. And here, he has it in writing on Jan. 30 and he let it go to March 13.",
"It may have been laudable then, in some misguided view of the sacrosanct nature of bargaining that allows a strike to go on forever without the responsible minister saying anything; but it’s not admirable now, not at this end of the trail.",
"The other thing, of course, that flows from the Terry Mancini episode, is something that’s terribly important for the future, I suggest to the minister. Terry Mancini is an excellent chap with a lot of knowledge, and a lot of training, and he worked round the clock to settle that dispute. But you see, it’s an educational dispute. It’s not a traditional labour dispute and there’s no way that a labour mediator, schooled in all the rituals of labour-management exchanges, the tribal rights that exist across a bargaining table in classic labour-management confrontation, there’s no way that such a mediator is going to win the confidence of both parties. I don’t care whether it’s Terry Mancini, Vic Scott or Bill Dickie. Compulsory arbitration or arbitration of a traditional kind in an educational model just won’t work because we are dealing with things that are so unusual and so sensitive; pupil-teacher ratio, class size. These aren’t the conditions that we talk about when we talk about Stelco, about Inco or about a small secondary manufacturing plant. These are things beyond the realm of normal labour relations.",
"If the minister is going to bring in a bill several months or a. few weeks hence, advising compulsory arbitration at the end of it, which bill will be passed through the Legislature and used countless times over in the next year or two, he had better find a group of people who can handle mediation in the field of education, because it is completely different. It is like nothing else.",
"That is why compulsory arbitration makes no blessed sense for the educational model. It is not the traditional kind of labour dispute. Compulsory arbitration makes no sense anywhere, but certainly not here. And one of the failures was the minister’s willingness to impose the old model on something for which it was totally unappropriate.",
"I guess the straw that broke the camel’s back in terms of our view of the ministry was when the board said it would accept the resignations of the teachers and hire afresh, and no one over there said anything.",
"For sheer belligerent provocation, nothing could have been worse. But no one said anything from the ministry side.",
"No one said to the board: “Okay, you have overstepped the bounds so unconscionably that I, the Minister of Labour, am moving in and taking over negotiations.” I think the House perhaps would have given the minister almost unanimous consent to do that. I don’t know about trusteeship. That seems to me to be a little far-fetched in terms of taking over the whole board on a permanent basis and running York county.",
"I must say the idea of final offer selection, coming in after the strike was already on, was something that neither party could even conceive of. And the suggestion of voluntary arbitration while negotiations were still going on in a semi-serious way caused them to grind to a halt, because that is the immediate response of the parties. Somebody suggests arbitration and everybody stands still for a day or two. But had the Minister of Education got to his feet and said: “I will take over negotiations. Enough is enough. I believe in the bargaining of PTR. The salary grid is clearly negotiable. There aren’t so many items outstanding. I will show you that the collective bargaining can work.” And then he could have settled it.",
"I suppose the old “intrusion on local autonomy” is the argument that will be made, but I am not sure that is so bad. I am not sure that is as bad as this. Because what has the minister done? He has got an- other confrontation on his hands. He has got deteriorated relationships between board and teachers which will take years to repair. He has got compulsory arbitration which almost no one wants, other than the Conservative Party. He has the worst of all worlds, and for no reasons that anyone can see, for no reasons that are plausible. Surely it would have been possible for the minister to have made his intervention at some earlier time when it might have saved it all.",
"The Province of Saskatchewan also has collective bargaining legislation for the teachers. The minister knows it fairly well. It allows all kind of routes. It allows mediation. It allows conciliation. It allows voluntary arbitration that is binding and voluntary- arbitration that isn’t binding. It allows, although it has not been used, the right to strike. It allows every conceivable avenue to be explored. And that means it is good faith bargaining. But none of that was forthcoming from the Province of Ontario. All that is forthcoming from the Province of Ontario is the guillotine at the end of the road.",
"Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister is hard-working, and he has invested an enormous amount of time, emotion and intelligence in this series of disputes. But so help me, as I stand here, Mr. Speaker, this strike in York county was the government’s responsibility. They could have ended it within two weeks. They chose not to take the initiative. They chose to allow it to be prolonged. They chose bad faith bargaining to be the central reality of that dispute. Therefore, although the minister will be commended on March 13 for his sudden initiative after X weeks, he won’t be commended when people look back -- because when people look back, the delinquency is all too obvious.",
"Sure, the clauses in this bill aren’t as bad as the clauses in Bill 274; we wouldn’t be able to oppose them with the same remorseless feeling. We are not going to oppose the mandatory award on PTR. We are not mad. We understand there are some contents of the bill which, if one has to have this kind of objectional stuff, are at least acceptable in their own perverse way, even to the teachers.",
"But the compulsory part of it; boy, the minister will never get us to accept that. That’s the government’s view of the negotiating process. I hope the parties settle in the next 48 hours. Politically, the minister has won his spurs. Politically I know he feels he can’t lose. The Minister of Education on a stallion, you know, rides through the corridors of Queen’s Park saving the students of York county."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)",
"text": [
"Streaking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"That was Lady Godiva."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"And I suppose that if they do accept a negotiated settlement of some kind in the next 48 hours, it will be the Minister of Education -- hanging the sword of Damocles high over teachers and trustees -- who wrested the settlement from the jaws of defeat; and all the rest of the garbage.",
"The fact of the matter is that it didn’t have to happen. It never had to happen at all. The minister deserves no great commendation or plaudits.",
"I tell you what else I hope, Mr. Speaker. I hope and my colleagues hope -- I’ve discussed it with them -- that if the bill does go through that the teachers accept the terms of the bill and return to the schools. Laws can be profoundly objectionable in this province, and this would be one of the worst. But for everyone concerned, even if the law is an ass, it exists; and teachers should observe it and therefore the schools function again. And I suspect that many people would agree that that should be the case.",
"But I can’t help but regret the way this whole thing has occurred -- accidental at the beginning, orchestrated at the end -- ultimately destructive of the educational system; causing fear and anxiety and resentment amongst the teachers, uncertainty amongst the students, belligerence from the boards and bewilderment from the public.",
"And none of it need have happened. If any of the members over there understood a thing about the way in which the collective bargaining process can work when positively supported, it need not have happened.",
"So we not only oppose the bill in principle, because compulsion is so abhorrent, but we oppose it because it shouldn’t even be here; because the kids could have been back in York county on Feb. 15. The government could have been bringing in Bill 275, with all of the avenues available as in the Province of Saskatchewan -- including the right to strike --removing forever from the field of education the idea of compulsion. Education is more about freedom than it is about authority; and this government is fixated on authority."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, in reading the title of this bill: “An Act respecting a Certain Dispute between York County Board of Education and certain of its Teachers,” I think of the dispute as not one that has just arisen in the last few weeks or even months. It really started back in 1968, Mr. Speaker.",
"I remember well as one of my early responsibilities as a member for York Centre, arranging a meeting between trustees in the York Central District High School district and other trustees in the lower part of the county. They wanted to meet with the Minister of Education -- who is now Premier (Mr. Davis) -- with a view to not having as large a board run the affairs in the southern part of York as was proposed in the legislation at that time.",
"In their view they felt that the setting up of a large board would lead to major problems in communication between teachers and trustees. How their forecast has been borne out, not only in York but in other counties of this province. Due to this large educational bureaucracy that the Premier imposed across the province -- bureaucracy at all costs; big buildings, big boards, big spending -- we have a breakdown between the most important element in our whole education system, the teacher, and those who employ the teachers.",
"I well remember back in 1971 there being an item that showed what was happening in York because of this big bureaucracy that was set up by this provincial government and imposed on York. The item said the director was reminding the trustees they must not visit the schools without an arrangement through the administration, and that policy development was their only responsibility and they developed policy on the basis of information they got from the administration.",
"I then wondered, as I wrote to the director as to what he meant by that, if indeed they did have to depend upon the reports from the administration as to policy decision. That would be, in my mind, a breach of responsibility on the part of anyone expected to direct and bear responsibility for policy, were he not free, and in fact if he did not take advantage of all opportunities to get information from all sources on which he could base decisions that would make sense for the benefit of the students in the educational system he was responsible for administering, or running, or making sure it provided education.",
"During the winter of 1973, I had a meeting for some time with the director of education one night in the home of the subsequent chairman of the negotiating committee. We had a meeting for several hours discussing what I feared was the building-up of a very serious rift, a complete breakdown in the relationship between the teachers and the board. The rumblings that I heard across the county disturbed me greatly. I was told that it was only a few radicals. I didn’t feel it could be, because many of those who were speaking to me were people who had taught my own youngsters and whom I knew to be very good teachers, not to be radicals.",
"But these people had been feeling the heavy hand of direction for some time. There was fear taking over; taking over from a feeling of confidence and mutual responsibility and satisfaction out of working together to provide education. It was a typical example of what happens when big administration is imposed to run something that runs far better when there is a much closer relationship between those who have the job of teaching and those who are going to be learning and receiving the benefit of the teaching.",
"This is what has happened; not because of a specific or a special situation in York, it’s because of a plan that this government thrust upon the people of Ontario years ago.",
"And then ceilings had to be imposed. They were the last straw -- ceilings that imposed restrictions on spending, which we all know are necessary; but not restrictions that were based upon the common sense, the knowledge, the sense of responsibility that locally elected people had. No, they were ceilings imposed by this government, making its own decisions -- arbitrary decisions -- in making these restrictions effective right across the province.",
"I was therefore not surprised, but I was disappointed when in November I learned that York was among the counties where there had not been a settlement of the contracts. I was certainly disappointed that it was among those listed in Bill 274, a bill which was, of course, one of the most atrocious pieces of legislation ever brought before this House.",
"But I stated at the time of the debate of Bill 274 that I did not want my own family attending school where we had broken the terms of contract of a teacher, where we had removed a right that he or she had had at the time he signed the contract, and where we were imposing our authority under conditions that did not give that teacher a feeling that he or she was going to be dealt with fairly.",
"On Jan. 25, near the end of the time of the deadline for those resignations, a public school principal came up to me in a meeting and said: ‘“What’s going to be done in York?”",
"I said: “Aren’t they going to settle like everybody else?”",
"He said: “No way. And the public schools are next.”",
"It was because of that that a little while later, when the schools were out and some of us were struggling to find a way of bringing them back together, I worked out with a few teachers and a couple of trustees I talked to the idea of a form of arbitration using the final offer selection principle. The teachers, however, were unwilling. They had no confidence, they said, in the board to go into any sort of voluntary arbitration. It was one thing that just wasn’t successful.",
"Those of us that have some responsibility in elected office in that area continued to try to find a solution. I was interested a week ago Sunday when it was reported to me that the chairman of the negotiating team for the trustees had suggested to the minister that the minister set up a trusteeship. But the minister apparently stated he had no power under the present legislation, although I understand that section 12 of the Ministry of Education Act has indeed been used for setting up a trusteeship in a northern district board of education which got itself into financial difficulties.",
"There is nothing in section 12(1), which was used I understand in that instance, which refers to financial difficulties. It just refers to the fact that:",
"“Subject to the provisions of any statute in that behalf and to the approval of the Lieutenant Governor in Council, the minister may make regulations with respect to schools or classes established under” [the various Acts listed] “and with respect to all other schools supported in whole or in part by public money:",
"“1. For the establishment, organization, administration and government thereof.”",
"That’s a broad clause, but it has been used before, I understand. Therefore, if it has been used before for financial reasons, surely it could be used where the students have been denied, for many weeks, an opportunity to receive the education that they are obligated to take.",
"This would have been a fine approach for the minister to take, because it would have been asking the trustees to step aside at a time when the future of the students was at stake, enabling the minister to deal directly with the teachers or the provincial Ministry of Education dealing directly with the provincial secondary school teachers. It would have given an opportunity to resolve a province-wide issue on pupil-teacher ratios and on other matters which were in dispute, and indeed an opportunity for the whole merits of the case, in York county in particular, to be settled later on in the ballot box.",
"In two days, over the weekend, 7,309 people indicated this was the course they wanted to take. Subsequent to that, I have received several thousand more signed affidavits supporting this trusteeship approach to get the students back in the school and to allow the public to settle what approach they want the trustees to take in the future in administering the educational system in York county.",
"Unfortunately, as has been stated, the bill that has been placed before us, although it is a way of getting the schools back into operation, will not remove the basic problems of personalities that are still in conflict here.",
"We will not have settled the problem coming up in the next few months when the public school teachers can resign. We do not want to have a continuation in York of this feeling on the part of many trustees that they are the last bastion of protection in the province against an over-powerful teacher federation. If they are right, let the electors say they are right; and if they are wrong, let that be stated also; but at least it would enable those of us in York to have the matter settled in the fairest court, that of the ballot box.",
"Trusteeship would resolve this. The minister’s delay in dealing with these matters unfortunately has caused a serious further deterioration in relations over that which occurred over the last few years, and I am sorry that in this bill the minister has resorted to what I would feel would have to be the very, very last resort, compulsory arbitration, in order to get these schools back into operation.",
"Teaching is not a matter of putting an individual in front of a classroom; it is also a matter of having that individual wanting to provide the service because that individual is convinced he has a duty to do, he has been given fair recognition for the responsibilities he is carrying out and is therefore enthusiastically helping our youngsters prepare themselves for the life they have ahead of them.",
"I certainly am sorry that the minister has chosen this route and, as my leader has indicated, we are not going to be delaying the legislation placed before us but we are going to be opposing it in principle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York South."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have no particular desire this afternoon to get into an argument with my friend from York Centre or the Liberal Party, because quite frankly my main thrust wants to be over on that side of the House, but I just want to say as unprovocatively as I can that the effort to drag into consideration of the York county dispute all of the current philosophy of the Liberal Party with regard to big units of administration and what it does to destroy relationships between that administration and the people that it is seeking to serve, I think in this instance is irrelevant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I realize the member is in support of big units."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Could I make my case as unprovocatively as possible? The member obviously hasn’t heard it yet. He just wants to defend the indefensible.",
"My point is simply this, whether the administration were big or small, if it were an administration as mindless as the trustees in York, and as perverse -- and I take this as second hand -- as perverse as the attitude of the director of education up there, I don’t care whether it were big or small, you are going to have problems. Therefore I think the basic argument, which I leave the member to pursue in his own good time, was irrelevant in this case. I listened to it being presented up in Richmond Hill two or three weeks ago, and indeed out at York Mills Rd. Secondary School and the few other places where the hon. member from York Centre and I found ourselves in the same circuit in the last six weeks; but it didn’t convince me then and it doesn’t convince me now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"No, the member liked those big boards."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"No. Look, the member for York Centre likes them when it serves his purpose, and his purpose now is to deplore them. It is irrelevant. That is the point I am making.",
"While I am dealing with this business of the initiative of the Liberal Party, personified in the hon. member for York Centre with regard to the whole dispute up there, let me repeat to the House what I said to a group of teachers on a platform with the hon. member for York Centre two weeks ago this Thursday at Richmond Hill, with regard to that specific proposal of the final offer selection that the hon. member felt was going to solve the problem up there.",
"I said then and I say it now, I don’t know what my attitude is, quite frankly, toward the final offer selection. Society is looking for some kind of an alternative to strikes, which have seemed up until now to be the only means to settle disputes when an impasse has been created between both sides of the bargaining table, and whether or not final offer selection will ultimately be an effective kind of answer I just don’t know. As the hon. member for York Centre pointed out, it originally was the brainchild of a couple of NDPers, Jim Norton and Val Scott. It certainly hasn’t been accepted with any degree of enthusiasm in the trade union movement or anywhere else."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"The member says final offer selection is the brainchild of Val Scott?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Unbelievable!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, that isn’t true, it was he who devised it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Once again, the Liberal Party has picked up something that was created by the New Democratic Party, but we are having difficulty on whether or not we want to accept it.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, it was not. That’s what the Liberals did with it because it is Val Scott’s creation. That’s why I know it’s wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That’s why we are taking a careful second look at it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The member talks about irrelevancy. He accuses my colleague of irrelevancy.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my train of thought in dealing with this whole issue has been seriously fouled up, but I have got to digress to deal with the hon. member for Sarnia because if the hon. member for Sarnia doesn’t know that the proposal being put forward by his deputy leader for the last month --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Was invented by Val Scott?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It was not only invented by Val Scott but was credited to Val Scott by the member’s hon. colleague when he first presented it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"He didn’t know it either then. The two of them are ignorant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, the member is wrong. He doesn’t know what a nightmare Val Scott is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)",
"text": [
"Val Scott stole it from Eugene, Ore., USA."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"He calls his fellow members ignorant.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Say something about final offer arbitration. Get into the debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"What I wanted to say, so that I can conclude this portion of my remarks with regard to the initiative taken by the hon. member for York Centre in peddling the ideas of Val Scott, to the current shock to the hon. member for Sarnia --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I don’t know where I get good ideas."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Good ideas? What’s wrong with the member? I want to say this; What my ultimate assessment of this proposal will be I honestly don’t know, but what I do know and what I said to the teachers up there is that I object to the proposition of switching the rules in the middle of the game. This is what the hon. member for York Centre was attempting to do -- to come up with this kind of a proposal after the teachers had got locked into a situation with their board and after their confidence in their relationship with that board had been so completely destroyed. Therefore, what in effect he was proposing -- and I almost believe he didn’t realize it himself -- was that having opposed compulsory arbitration here in the House on Bill 274 and having professed to be opposed to compulsory arbitration almost irrevocably, he was trying to smuggle it in the back door -- after having professed to be opposed to it at the front door. That’s what the final offer of selection was going to be under these circumstances."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. Carruthers (Durham)",
"text": [
"That’s right; that’s right.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The members for Wentworth (Mr. Deans) and York North were arguing for free collective bargaining and the Liberals were arguing for arbitration. How do the members like that? The Liberal Party, flying its colours again.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I give you my word of honour, from this point forward I am not going to say another word about the Liberal Party and its role during this debate this afternoon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"He won’t mention Val Scott either."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"We have always spoken well of the member for York South."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)",
"text": [
"The member for Downsview is off on another tangent there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my detailed knowledge and my exposure to this whole confrontation in the county of York was pretty well restricted to one day. Quite frankly, it was one of the most memorable days I have had in some 20 years of Ontario politics. I had to go up and share a plat- form with a representative from each of the other parties, one of whom was absent as he is absent again this afternoon -- namely the hon. member for York North because he didn’t think the cause of the Conservative Party at that point was defensible in that particular atmosphere"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"He’s just gone out for a phone call did the member say?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"How can he be in the phone booth and the washroom at the same time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"With a glass in his hand?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Like “heck-ell” he has! If one can get a combination of heck and hell together, that’s what one gets from what I said.",
"Yes; York South, Mr. Speaker!",
"I attended a meeting with some 300 of the teachers who were engaged in one of their afternoon or full-length day sessions considering the whole problem that had been created by this withdrawal of their services.",
"It was, I repeat, a very memorable kind of afternoon and I will tell members the thing that came through to anybody who became aware of the details in that argument and of the atmosphere that had been created: It was that the system in the county of York had completely broken down. An impasse had been reached. The relationships between teachers and board of education had deteriorated to a point where one almost wonders when they can be restored again. The relationships between the teachers and the director of education could hardly be described in words that would be parliamentary. This was the message that came through.",
"Therefore, one didn’t need to view the situation very long to realize that at some early date there was going to be need for intervention from the outside, because the parties themselves weren’t going to be able to resolve the situation.",
"There was an absolute refusal on the part of the board to consider pupil-teacher ratio, although everywhere else it has generally been accepted as a legitimate item for negotiation and for arbitration. And the thing that puzzles me about the minister’s posture on this particular issue now is that he so long refused to intervene and to insist that this was a legitimate topic; and by his refusal to intervene he prolonged the strike. He personally or his ministry was responsible for prolonging the strike. And he has now conceded frankly to the world that he is wrong, because he has brought in a bill in which he flatly asserts and states that this is a topic that is negotiable and can be subject to arbitration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"He said so some time ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Well, if he said so some time ago, he should have said so in a way that nobody else would have had any doubt about it. Indeed, the one party in the dispute that was road-blocking any possibility of a resolution of it, should have been told that it was a negotiable item. But the minister didn’t say it. Therefore, as has been pointed out in this debate, the minister in a very real sense, despite all his noble and hard-working efforts otherwise, was responsible for the prolongation of this strike situation, if not for its initial breakdown.",
"There is another point that came through, Mr. Speaker, from a very cursory exposure to the facts of the situation up in York. It is that -- and as I attended many other meetings it was often repeated -- it was that about 70 per cent of the budget in most boards of education goes for teachers’ salaries. Now, when people hear that at first they’re a little bit taken aback. That bolsters the public image that some people spend so much time attempting to build these days, that teachers are the real problem in terms of high education costs. But about 70 per cent of the costs in hospitals goes for salaries. It goes to the people who are providing the service. And teachers are a very important element in the schoolroom, providing the education for the children. The teachers and the working conditions -- that is education.",
"The pupil-teacher ratio, as was pointed out by my colleague who is the educational spokesman for this party, the whole pupil-teacher ratio may be construed by the public as the working conditions of the teacher; but the working conditions of the teacher are the learning conditions of the pupil. They are one and the same thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well said!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Therefore, they are a very relevant part; and there’s no surprise that they are 70 per cent of the budget. But what startled me, Mr. Speaker, was that I discovered in the county of York, that teachers’ salaries comprised approximately 57 per cent of the budget."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Oh, get your figures right!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"Yes, the member is a little low."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Everybody’s all over the place in those ratios."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Well, all I’m saying is that I have heard a lot of arguments as to what is the accurate percentage --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Well, the member should state what his sources are or what amount he is talking about, because the ratios range all over the place."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Sounds too low."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Okay."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Has the member for York Centre concluded his speech?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Let me not get into an argument on this, Mr. Speaker. I will agree with my friend that there has been a lot of argument as to what is the appropriate figure. Various people come up with various yardsticks. It has been stated that the teacher proportion of the budget is as low as 57 per cent. There are others who argue it is higher.",
"Let me try to get out of an argument on statistics. The teacher salary proportion of the budget is lower in the York county board than it is in virtually any other board -- certainly it is away below the average for all of the Province of Ontario. Let’s get it under that generalization. Therefore, all I’m saying is that the government has another reason, though as my leader has pointed out salaries weren’t really the thing that brought this to the impasse, they weren’t really the thing. But salaries, in the first instance, were one of the irritants that created that sense of grievance in the teachers vis-a-vis the board.",
"I went down with my hon. friend the member for Beaches-Woodbine (Mr. Wardle) and shared with him a meeting of the teachers on Main St. in the east end of Toronto. I was rather fascinated to hear teachers in Toronto getting up and asking him questions as to why it was, for example, in York county that teachers with essentially the same jobs were getting $1,000-plus less than they were getting in the city of Toronto.",
"This was generally a factor, and this created something of a climate, and while the salary issue tended to fade into the background and to be overshadowed by PTR and by other issues, it was one of the issues that created the whole impasse in the first instance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"The ceilings are substantially less up there too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That may well have been.",
"The third point that became very clear from an assessing of the situation, and this has been referred to by virtually everybody who has spoken so far, is the role of the director of education. As a matter of fact, when I make the comment that the system had broken down, it had broken down in so many ways that it is almost a story in itself. One had the impression that the director of education was not only running the educational system, but he was running the board; that the board, in effect:, had abdicated much of its responsibility. The members may have been claiming in one breath that they were the elected representatives of the people and therefore they should be able to have management rights and everything else, but in fact they had conceded many of their legitimate rights -- much as they may talk of local autonomy -- to a hireling of the board, namely the director of education. That was another serious element in the deteriorating situation.",
"I was most intrigued, and indeed puzzled, to discover that in that day’s discussion up at Richmond Hill with the teachers there was also a very widespread feeling among those present, including some people who weren’t teachers, that in earlier instances in Ontario where difficulties had arisen with regard to a director of education being the evil genius in the picture, particularly down near Windsor, it had been virtually impossible for a board to get rid of a director of education. It was even said that the Ministry of Education tended to line up and support the director of education so that there was sort of a united front against the board when it was trying to regain some of that precious local autonomy.",
"It was a breakdown in the system. Because there was a breakdown in the system, Mr. Speaker, it became very clear that somebody had to intervene to break the impasse. The man who could and should have intervened, I suggest, was the minister himself, or somebody whom he might have appointed on his behalf.",
"I share with the leader of the New Democratic Party some misgivings about the proposition of complete trusteeship, because complete trusteeship means one takes over the board in all of its ramifications and all of its responsibilities, and how one sort of hands it back without having an election and getting a new board is a very difficult kind of process.",
"If the government had an impasse in the negotiations, as it surely had an impasse in York county, it would have been possible for the minister to step in and to take charge of those negotiations, as indeed the Minister of Labour has on occasion when the government reached impasses in labour-management disputes. Because of the prestige of his office and because of his presumably firm belief that some of those items like PTR were negotiable and should, if necessary, be sent to arbitration, he could have begun to break the logjam. But because he didn’t step in in a strike that started about Feb. 1, it went on for some six weeks.",
"Allegedly, the reason for the government’s hesitancy to do this is its respect for local autonomy and its desire not to breach this sacrosanct local autonomy. Mr. Speaker, I for one never buy that argument. There are too many occasions when this government is willing to breach local autonomy when they contend it is for some higher purpose, and for the public interest, and so on. Certainly, in this instance, the kind of situation that had developed and the minister’s concern and the growing concern of everybody else about the fact that the schools weren’t operating and the children weren’t getting the education that they were entitled to made it a paramount factor that justified what he might deem to be a temporary aberration, a temporary breaching of local autonomy, at least to get some resolution of the difficulties.",
"The real message, Mr. Speaker, that comes through on this is that the government has a basic commitment which, despite the minister’s efforts otherwise to avoid it, it always comes back to. That is a basic commitment to the concept of compulsory arbitration as being the method for solving unresolved difficulties in this field.",
"I said in December when we were speaking on second reading of Bill 274 that the government had taken a stance of great unhappiness at having to bring Bill 274 into the House. They were almost paraphrasing the comment of the father who is whipping his unruly son and saying, “Look, son, I don’t like to do this. It hurts me more than it hurts you.” This was the posture of the government that they didn’t like compulsory arbitration.",
"Mr. Speaker, I simply don’t believe that is the case, because compulsory arbitration has become the centrepiece of the government’s philosophy in terms of collective bargaining procedures. It was the government’s philosophy back in 1964 in the whole hospital workers situation in Trenton when one had another duplication of a complete impasse, another duplication of a situation in which there was no bargaining in good faith, in which one had had an impartial conciliation board chairman sharing along with the workers’ representative on the conciliation board the most devastating condemnation of the management attitude and actions throughout all that.",
"Yet in that instance, instead of bringing in a bill which would have at least dealt with that situation alone, the government brought in a bill which imposed compulsory arbitration upon hospital workers all across the Province of Ontario. That was done over the decision and the honourable promise given by a minister not to do it, but to bring in a specific piece of legislation to deal in an ad hoc fashion with that situation. The government repeated it again when we got into the civil service legislation. Now it is repeating it with the teachers’ situation in collective bargaining. At least in this instance the minister has brought in a bill to deal with the last of the 16 or 17 unresolved board-teacher negotiations. He is going to deal with it alone. It involves compulsory arbitration. The broader threat of compulsory arbitration as a strait-jacket to be imposed upon teachers as a whole has already been laid on the table in this House in the form of Bill 274 in the last session.",
"Mr. Speaker, this government’s commitment is to a procedure which simply will not work. It hasn’t worked in terms of the objective which the government itself professed with regard to the hospital workers of getting this group higher up in a wage scale so that they wouldn’t be working at subsistence level. Their differentials have widened. It is not going to work in the instance of teachers either in this specific instance because the government is going to make a bad situation worse even though it may get them back into the schools. And it certainly isn’t going to work when we get into permanent legislation, partly because it is wrong in principle and partly because it is particularly inapplicable when one gets into the very peculiar kind of circumstances in labour-management relations in an educational situation. As everybody who has spoken so far has said, the compulsory principle of this bill is abhorrent, and we are going to oppose it precisely because that principle is abhorrent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I rise to record my objections to Bill 12, the bill introduced by the minister yesterday, An Act respecting a Certain Dispute between York County Board of Education and certain of its Teachers. I do so, Mr. Speaker, regretting the minister did introduce such legislation, legislation that would deal with forcing a group of teachers back to work simply because of a stubborn or an obstinate board that wouldn’t accept what the minister had said at one time that pupil-teacher ratio was a negotiable item.",
"However, at the same time, Mr. Speaker, I should criticize the minister, very, very strongly for not having spoken out loudly and strongly in the early stages of the board-teacher negotiations that pupil-teacher ratio would be an negotiable item and also that ceilings could be broached.",
"Mr. Speaker, at the outset I should commend the hon. member for York Centre for his role in an attempt to resolve the problem in his area. He has met with individual teachers and with teachers’ groups. He has met with federations. He has met with the board members individually and collectively. He has met with students. He has met with parents, individually and collectively, as well as with residents of his riding and the county of York who may not have had a direct involvement in the situation because they had no children attending any of the York schools. I think the member for York Centre is to be commended for his efforts in an attempt to resolve the situation.",
"Mr. Speaker, before any type of negotiations can be effective, there must be a sense of trust, a sense of faith, a sense of concern, a sense of goodwill and a sense of good faith bargaining. In the York situation apparently a lot of these elements were missing. I am not going to mention anything of the role of the director of education and how he may have held back the real eventual solution of the problem at an earlier stage. I will leave that comment for those that are a little more knowledgeable concerning him.",
"However, Mr. Speaker, boards have to realize that the master-servant relationship has gone. It has gone long ago. In the US they claimed that Lincoln freed the slaves back 100 years ago. The slaves in education in the eyes of some boards are the school teachers. We got rid of slavery. There is no need to maintain the attitude that teachers must continue to be slaves. They have a contribution to make and they want to make that contribution. There must be co-operation, there must be trust and there must be willingness to try to resolve the differences.",
"I can look back at the situation in my own area, Mr. Speaker. Imagine how you are going to develop trust and faith in a board, if after attempting to fight for a basic democratic principle, the right to withhold your services, or in the eyes of some, the right to strike, teachers in the area withdrew their services for one day, and rather than possibly be slapped on the wrist or simply have their pay deducted, the board comes through and sends to each teacher involved the following type of letter:",
"“The purpose of this letter is to inform you that due to your absence without the consent of the Board of Education for the City of Windsor on Tuesday, Dec. 18, 1973, you are in breach of contract.”",
"That paragraph is all right. But listen to this, Mr. Speaker.",
"“The board takes a very serious view of breach of contract. Should you be in breach of contract in the future, the board will consider it as cause for immediate termination of your contract.”",
"There we go back to the Abraham Lincoln days, the master-servant concept. We thought that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"Board- teacher relations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"-- was an 18th or a 19th century and not a 20th century concept. We thought that went by the board years and years ago -- more than 100 years ago -- in our British democratic systems.",
"Mr. Speaker, that letter was by the public board. The separate board was a little more mild in its approach. I thought the letter by them was at least acceptable. However, the separate board did not seem to be willing to bargain in good faith.",
"I am bringing this out, Mr. Speaker, to show to you that the situation from my understanding is exactly the same situation as in the York area, the lack of bargaining in good faith. When the Windsor separate board suspended a principal, when the Windsor separate board fired a teacher for taking part in or for withholding services, just as did every teacher in the system in an attempt to fight for their democratic right, the right to withhold their services, a right that is granted practically everyone in our society that is not under an essential service category, when the board wishes to appeal a potential arbitration award, you wonder sometimes if the people of the board are living in the 20th century.",
"Don’t they realize that teachers are humans just as they are? They want to remain in their classrooms, but when they are forced to the wall they have no other alternative but to fight for their rights. If fighting for their rights means that they have to withdraw their services, there is nothing else that they can possibly do. They are by far more interested in the education of students that come under their wing than are the board members. They take a personal involvement. This, to them, is more than simply a livelihood it is a career. It is generally something to which they have dedicated their whole lives. We all entrust our children to their hands for their education. Yet, Mr. Speaker, when the teachers of a board want to negotiate a thing such as pupil-teacher ratio, which is really conditions of work, who knows better than does the teacher the working conditions that would be more conducive to better education for the student who is exposed to that teacher?",
"When the teachers in the province see actions on the part of boards such as the two that I have mentioned here, you can’t wonder why they don’t have the confidence in the boards that all of us would like to see them have. When they see board after board not bargaining in good faith, it leaves them reason to doubt.",
"A lot has been made, Mr. Speaker, concerning the loss of time by the students, the loss of attendance. At the end of this week, I understand some 30 teaching days will have been missed by the student. One day is one day too much. But education isn’t all in a classroom. The committee on the utilization of educational facilities in its very first recommendation, in the preamble to the recommendation, says that “an education is not confined to the facilities traditionally designated as educational. It is our view that educational facilities must include all the places where education is being and can be pursued.”",
"Mind you, Mr. Speaker, the book learning for given topics generally takes place in the classroom, but despite the fact that the students lost the 30 days, the teachers didn’t want them to lose the 30 days -- or it will be 30 days at the end of this week. The students didn’t want to lose the 30 days; the board members didn’t want this to take place. This could have been avoided, had the Minister of Education come out loud and clear immediately upon the introduction of Bill 274 that pupil-teacher ratio would be a negotiable item.",
"What he would have been saying is that “we, as a government, are interested in the quality of education. We want the best education possible for the students in our school system.” But by not coming out and spelling out the fact that the pupil-teacher ratio would be a negotiable item, he, in turn said, “We’re not too interested in quality education. We’re interested in the cheapest type of education that we can possibly get.”",
"I hope that wasn’t the idea and the attitude of the ministry. The 30 days will be lost if the students are not back before the end of this week. Mr. Speaker, there are ways in which the school system could catch up on the 30 days. I’m not the one to tell them that they should do it. I think that is a decision that has to be made by both the teachers and the board involved. There are five days of next week that could be used. I’m not suggesting that the students not have a break. I’m not suggesting that the teachers don’t have a break. But we could make up five days next week. We likewise have a series of 12 professional development days that under the unusual circumstances of this year could be put into teaching days. Next year we could go back into the professional development days if it is the wish of the teachers and the board.",
"There is also generally on the secondary level the month of June that is not used to capacity, to full time, in relation to classroom teaching and/or testing. I can recall at one time in my educational experience that on about the first week of June the formal classroom education was over. There were probably four or five days of actual teaching and then there were roughly two weeks in which the teachers either marked their papers or there were promotion exams.",
"Were we to extend, if the teachers and the board wished to, teaching up into the month of June and/or hold promotions either late in June or early in July, we could catch up the 30 days. We could likewise catch up the 30 days, Mr. Speaker, by the extension of the school day, if necessary. We could likewise catch up the loss by the use of summer programmes that my leader made mention of in the question period, if that is the wish of both the teachers and the board involved.",
"Mr. Speaker, the time could be caught up in a number of ways. The decision should be left up to both the teachers and the board, so that no student would suffer academically as a result of the 30 days in which the schools on the secondary level were not open. There is always the concern of the grade 13 student. If the Ministry of Education and the government had taken their own recommendations -- and that was the assimilation of grade 13 by absorption over the four years in the secondary level, or four years in the secondary level and two years in the elementary level, we wouldn’t have had a grade 13. We wouldn’t have that problem. Now that we have the problem, we have to assist those students that need assistance, so that it doesn’t deprive them of the opportunity to continue their post-secondary education.",
"I think they can be accommodated by mutual agreement among all three parties involved, that is, the teachers, the board and the students. No one wants to see any of the students suffer, but had the ministry eliminated grade 13 you would have had a cheaper secondary education. The boards probably would have been able to operate, or may have been able to operate, within budget.",
"Mr. Speaker, I will have to fault the Minister of Education for not having introduced some type of board-teacher negotiation legislation. He has had sufficient time since the Reville report has been tabled in the House to come up with some answers to the problem. I am not saying that he should have adopted what Reville suggested, but he could have come along in consultation with boards and teachers’ organizations over the past year and arrived at something that would have been more satisfactory, or maybe even completely satisfactory, to all parties concerned.",
"The introduction of Bill 274, Mr. Speaker, did one good thing and that was it unified the teachers to show them that unless they work as a body they are going to find that government will push them around. No longer are teachers going to stand up to being the scapegoats in the inefficiency and the lack of action on the part of the government.",
"Bill 12 that we are discussing at this time does remove some of the problems, but as I made mention, problems that could have been removed months earlier had the minister by his comments made known loud and clear that the pupil-teacher ratio as well as ceilings, these two issues, were going to be resolved or could be resolved.",
"Force is no answer. If we come along and try to force anyone in this House to do certain things, he may do those things, but he does them with rebellion on the inside of him, and the first chance he has to get back at the individual who forced him to take that action, he will come along and rebel.",
"Mr. Speaker, the teachers here don’t want to be forced back to work. They can resolve the problems and they would have resolved the problems, had the minister spoken out in the latter part of last year. Teachers want to negotiate their working conditions. Why shouldn’t they want to negotiate their working conditions? That is not unreasonable, is it?",
"The employees of Ford, Chrysler, General Motors, the auto workers, negotiate their working conditions, not that I am trying to equate the school teacher with the industrial worker and not that I am trying to degrade the industrial worker in any aspect whatsoever. But the industrial worker is a little more advanced when it comes to talking with his employer. He negotiates with the employer as to the number of cars that are going to be turned out in an hour, the number of men that are going to be working on the line to produce the cars and the speed with which the line is going to operate. All of these things are taken into consideration and the employer accepts that.",
"What is the difference with the teachers? They are human in just the same way as is the industrial auto worker. Mr. Speaker, the elected representatives don’t determine how fast an assembly line is to move or how many cars are to be produced. The elected officials are not being involved in the working conditions as far as the auto worker is concerned. The elected officials aren’t involved in the working conditions in a hospital. That is done by others.",
"The teachers, Mr. Speaker, are interested in improving the learning atmosphere in the classroom. Who knows more about this learning atmosphere than those professionally trained to work in a classroom? The pupil teacher-ratio or the conditions of work are extremely important. We need a realistic appraisal of the contribution of the teacher to society. Surely we can’t hold the teacher accountable for the education of future generations if we deny to that teacher a voice in the formulation and direction of that same education.",
"If teachers are given some control over the system in which they must function, then they can be held accountable for the effects of those educational policies. If we are interested in quality education, we have to be interested in the pupil-teacher ratio. I am very pleased to see that the minister has resolved that issue now, but it could have been resolved months ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"It should have been, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"As far as ceilings are concerned, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I said it last year but the member wasn’t listening."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"Why didn’t the minister agree to this formula before?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"If it was really his view, why didn’t he speak up?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"He never said it publicly in here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Everybody knows my views. Yes, I did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if the minister had been loud and clear concerning the ceiling situation, then that obstacle could have been removed and the resolution of the problem would have been accelerated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Or the pupil-teacher ratio."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"I want to ask of the minister at this time, if in the course of the negotiations the ceilings are broached, then where will the money come from to take care of the new demands on the board? Is this going to be a loan against future grants? Are we simply postponing the day of recovery? In the light of declining enrolments, Mr. Speaker, a better system has to be devised, to the agreement of both sides, to resolve the issue of declining enrolments and its effect on grants to the school board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is the minister going to make up the difference out of his own pocket?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, going to compulsory arbitration is not the way to resolve the problem. Force only begets force. Co-operation, respect, trust, good faith and goodwill can do wonders. I am disturbed, Mr. Speaker, that in some cases of compulsory arbitration, or even in this case, the cost of the arbitration to the board, to the teachers, and likewise to the government for the arbitration hearings could be in some instances even greater than the award. It could cost more to resolve the issue than what the award would amount to. Compulsory arbitration is not the best way, especially, Mr. Speaker, when my colleague, the hon. member from York Centre has suggested an alternative. I will support my leader, Mr. Speaker, and vote against second reading of this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I paused to see if there were any members of the government who wished to come in and partake in this debate. There was a lot of thumping of the desks yesterday as if they approved of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Why aren’t the members for Parry Sound (Mr. Maeck) and Peterborough (Mr. Turner) here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Yet I don’t see any of them jumping up today to participate. They surprise me.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I can remember many of these members in the debate on Bill 274 jumping to their feet with great enthusiasm."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the member for London North (Mr. Walker) participate in the debate?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I can remember the hon. member for Durham making a contribution at that time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Yes. Would he get his feet off the desk now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"What the member has done so far is waste time. He knows the answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"-- and I’m waiting eagerly for his contribution in this one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Does the member think he is making any contribution to this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Would the hon. member for Durham take his feet off the desk?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Up until the last speaker got up, the hon. member for York North was, I thought, waiting patiently to get in, and he has now left us. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, looking at this bill before us, I had the distinct feeling when I first saw it that the Minister of Education had indeed learned a lot since black Monday of Dec. 10 last."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. G. W. Walker (London North)",
"text": [
"Does the member mean he is going to support it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Now look who wants to speak."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Yes, now we are getting some involvement here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"You mean there is a Tory that can speak?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I see them scribbling notes over here. I guess they’re about to get in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Let them tell us where they stand on this bill.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We’d be interested in hearing what they have to say. They’re not going to get in on this one. It’s so evidently bad in principle that they are not going to embarrass themselves by getting up and talking about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"That’s not true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Is the member for Durham going to get up and talk about it then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"He should get his feet off the desk."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We won’t know about their thoughts unless they get up and babble about them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Those fellows will never make it to the cabinet if they don’t speak out in the Legislature! I mean, look at the member for Scarborough East (Mrs. Birch). How is it that the member for Don Mills (Mr. Timbrell) made it into the cabinet? By speaking on issues in the Legislature."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"We want the kids back in school."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"They never know when they’re defeated.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur over there is getting some advice from the hon. member for Thunder Bay on what to say in the debate. Well, I hope he has taken it to heart."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Fort William (Mr. Jessiman)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Oh, I’m sorry; Fort William."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Say what you have to say and don’t repeat it to others."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"That’s why many of them don’t talk! They haven’t much new to say, perhaps.",
"Anyway, looking at this bill I had the distinct feeling that the minister had, in fact, learned a lot since that famous black Monday. But by seeing compulsory arbitration as the only way to settle this dispute, it’s clear to me that he hasn’t quite finished his education.",
"I’m not implying that he should let this dispute linger on further, so that the Minister of Education can simply complete his education on this score and dream up some better solutions -- many of which we’re quite willing to supply to him, as a means of settling this dispute. I’m not implying that at all. But if I could read this bill with a pair of glasses that blocked out references to compulsory arbitration, I might even be caught saying that it wasn’t a bad bill. The penalties that are outlined in it are rather inventive. He doesn’t threaten teachers with fines or what have you. He puts them in a position --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Contempt of court."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"-- the teachers or the board, of being in contempt of court."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Which results in fines."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Which implies fines and jail sentences, but not necessarily."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"There could just be a reprimand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Although it’s not a criminal offence, I think teachers or board members would probably be less inclined to have on their record a contempt of court citation than they would be to pay a $100 fine. So I find that provision rather inventive. And it makes clear that the board’s last salary offer was to be a minimum for the salary settlement in this dispute. That’s not a bad feature. And, of course, it makes clear that the pupil-teacher ratio is negotiable. An obvious point, because it’s one of the matters in dispute. It should have been obvious all along. Whether the pupil-teacher ratio is a working condition or whether it’s a financial condition, of course, doesn’t matter. It’s one of the matters in dispute and it’s obvious that it has to be settled by whatever means is chosen to settle it. And because it could be construed to be a financial matter certainly does not in any sense make it a management right and not subject to settlement by whatever means is chosen to settle it.",
"But the tunnel vision of the board, and the board negotiators, around the pupil-teacher ratio is second only to the minister’s own tunnel vision in seeing compulsory arbitration as the only final solution when he feels that collective bargaining has broken down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Tory tunnels."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"It’s the only solution which a Tory can think of. That’s where the minister’s education isn’t complete. And it’s time now for him to get out of that tunnel before he imposes on the province a further bill under which all teachers must negotiate. Look around the world. Look outside Ontario and see what other means have been chosen to govern the teacher-board relationships in other jurisdictions around the world. Don’t be restricted with this narrow tunnel vision that the government has in this particular solution.",
"I heard a remark from the member for York Centre that in this dispute between the York county board and certain of its teachers one of the things hindering negotiations was the fact the board’s ceilings were lower. This should have told the Minister of Education something about that board if that, in fact, is the case. We heard this from the member for York Centre. Perhaps the minister can indicate if the member was wrong in his comment that the ceilings in the York county board are lower than they are elsewhere. Is this correct, Mr. Minister? Can the minister confirm or deny that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"No. What does the member for Windsor West mean by lower? Lower than what?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I’m quoting the member for York Centre’s words: “The ceilings are lower in York county education.” I can tell it to the minister in terms of --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I imagine if he means that the ceilings for the York county board, when they’re finally worked out, that the amount per pupil is lower, say, than Metropolitan Toronto. Probably they are. Yes, they probably are a lower per-pupil figure than",
"Metropolitan Toronto,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"In other words, it’s simply due to the weighting factor not being as high. They are not one of the five or six boards that, when the government imposed the ceilings initially, found that they were so far below it that they weren’t allowed to go up to it only in steps? That was the case, as you know Mr. Speaker, of the Windsor boards. And it said something very much about that board; that over the years they had not been spending money the way they should have. Well, I see that that’s due to the weighting factors and not to the same situation that existed with the Windsor board. I’m glad to have that point cleared up.",
"One other matter which was spoken of rather heatedly here in the debate was the final offer arbitration that was proposed by the member for York Centre. We had some words about three-quarters of an hour ago about who in this world first dreamed up final offer arbitration; and confusion on the part of both parties in the argument as to whether or not it was good.",
"Well, let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that several states of the United States have adopted final offer arbitration. They have embodied it in legislation as one of the routes to reach a settlement under collective bargaining disputes. On the evidence which is now readily available from reports on final offer arbitration, any reasonable person would dismiss immediately final offer arbitration as a satisfactory means of reaching a fair solution to any dispute.",
"Certain members have heard the phrase, but have never investigated it; and it’s just those members who would propose this sort of solution to any dispute.",
"Reports on this subject have appeared in the past year in US News and World Report, the monthly Labour Review of the US Department of Labour, and the Industrial Labour Relations Review -- a publication of the New York State School of Industry and Labour.",
"Articles were written by members of those final arbitration panels, and in each case they have come to virtually the same conclusion. Those conclusions about final offer arbitration have been that if the arbitration board had, in fact, been given flexibility and had not been limited to choosing one of two final offers from each side, the interests of both parties would have been advanced.",
"Had they been permitted to use their discretion after the facts of the case had been presented to it by each side, a judgement would have been made which would have been workable and equitable and would have better met the needs of both parties. These are the conclusions of men who have sat on these panels.",
"The advocates of final offer arbitration argue -- and I think they argue quite hypothetically, having had no practical experience -- that the parties will refrain from making unreasonable offers so that, in the fear that the final offer selected by the panel is not theirs, they will try and make theirs a reasonable one. However, there is no empirical evidence from any of the negotiations prior to these final offers, and the amounts in those final offers, that bears out this hypothesis. It could be just as easily argued that the parties make unreasonable final offers, and simply attempting to be a shade less unreasonable than the unreasonable offer of the other party. There is no evidence to support that either. There is no evidence to support either side, that it affects the collective bargaining leading up to that arbitration based on final offers.",
"“The proponents of final offer arbitration simply and completely fail to take into account properly the cost that will have to be paid in the loss of flexibility and the likelihood that the quality of the decision is likely to be inferior.”",
"That is a quote from an article in the monthly Labour Review of the US Department of Labour by one of the members who sat upon the panel, a Dr. Fred Witney, professor of economics at Indiana University, in a dispute between the city of Indianapolis and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.",
"Mr. Speaker, a great public relations point has tried to he made by the government when it introduced this bill, and by the Premier in replies to questions, that all the government is interested in is the kids in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"The students."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"The students in this province. All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Don’t be so pious."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I am not being pious. They tell me they want to be called students."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"They wanted to be called students? All right. Will the Premier sort of bow to any suggestion?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Does he want to speak in this debate?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Held",
"text": [
"Is he going to speak on this bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I gather he is going to jump in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"We’ll actually hear from the Tories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"In this matter I thought very concisely; in fact, far more concisely than some hon. members opposite -- and I’m far less contradictory and less hypocritical, wouldn’t my friend agree?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Certainly less than the Liberals."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Call him to order, Mr. Speaker, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The Premier is getting pretty conceited."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I haven’t heard anyone else say that about the Premier’s statement; only himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"If I don’t, who else is going to?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"He won’t get it from this side."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I didn’t really expect that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Oh no, I have been giving credit where credit was due all along here this afternoon. I have said the minister’s bill was good in three specific respects. I’m always ready to give credit where credit is due."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Then why not vote for it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"It’s not good enough."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Oh, I see."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"No, the principle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Three out of five isn’t too bad."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"The principle of compulsory arbitration -- we can never vote for that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)",
"text": [
"The member’s leader told us earlier he supports it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I’m glad the hon. member is here to listen."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"The anti-labour member for Timiskaming has entered the debate now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Is he listening with his mouth again?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We listened to it. We didn’t have the complete statement, though.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We didn’t have the complete statement 45 minutes in advance, as we had on Bill 274."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"But they knew it called for compulsory arbitration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We didn’t have the complete outline of the bill --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"They can’t get around it; they knew it called for compulsory arbitration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"-- as we had for 45 minutes before Bill 274 --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"-- or the half-hour caucus. We didn’t need a half-hour caucus either to decide what we were going to do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Thank you. Would you keep this rabble in order, Mr. Speaker? I would very much appreciate it.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"This rabble on the far extreme right, Mr. Speaker --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"The rabble on the extreme right over here. Much further right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The member for Windsor West is inconsistent. He voted against it on first reading last time, and for it this time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We are inconsistent?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Inconsistency is the hobgoblin of the Liberal Party."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"When one thinks of the Liberal Party, one thinks of inconsistency with a capital I and a capital C."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Why didn’t they stand up?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Are the Liberals telling us how to run our affairs? They can’t even run their own affairs.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the situation has deteriorated since the Premier came in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, now I know why the Premier doesn’t sit in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Now we know why he is here today. He is here to enjoy the fun."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"Did the member for Ottawa East hear what the member called him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"No, what did he call me?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Remind me. I have called him so many things, both inside and outside the House, that I am not sure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Was it parliamentary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Does the member for Durham mean “inconsistent with both a capital I and a capital C”? Sure, when one thinks of them, that is what one thinks of. Capital I, capital C, inconsistent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Our thinking is not fossilized into rigidity like the Liberals’."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Back to the bill, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An. hon. member",
"text": [
"The professor is talking now; let’s be quiet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. L. Maeck (Parry Sound)",
"text": [
"Stop this babbling about, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I know I shouldn’t but the Premier is obviously enjoying it; he’s here with the biggest smile I’ve seen on him in days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"Where does the train stop?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"In any event, talking about the students and who has what attitude toward the students in the province and in this situation, I might say with respect to one point which was just slightly touched upon -- that of whether or not the students would go back to school next week -- I can’t recall the actual wording on one of the signs which a small group of pupils here last week was carrying around but I think it read something like “Lack of classes makes us asses” or something of this sort. I can’t think, really, of a more ridiculous sign than that. If a student has to depend upon what is given to him or her in a classroom in order to learn something in this world, with all the fully stocked libraries we have around, then maybe the lower part of that sign does apply to that particular student."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"Is the member suggesting we close the classrooms?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"That is what the report says."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"No, I am saying they can learn something from schools, I’m saying they can learn a lot outside of schools."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"No wonder they had to let him go."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He should have quit a long time ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I’m sure some of the members over there would be the first to agree with me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"No wonder the member had to have the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"One can learn a lot in class but one can also learn a lot outside class. Certainly, in this party we would not object --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"But there are places in the classroom and that is where the students should be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I can’t quite hear the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"His place is in the kitchen. Why doesn’t he get back there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"The member had better go up to the north again.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"In the member’s NDP paper, is he going to put in how he voted on Bill 12 on first reading?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"The member would be afraid to put any collected statements by his members on paper anywhere. They are so contradictory."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is he going to document it? He has even got the blue line of the Tories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"The colour of the Tories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"They work together -- we know that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"They use the same colour of blue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Gracious!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"In blue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Next thing we know, they’ll have a picture."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"That looks like one of the Tory ads."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"That looks like the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"There’s a good picture of the Minister of Education in there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)",
"text": [
"They are reading good material there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"The one point mentioned here was whether or not --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Looking for the soft underbelly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Jeez, the member for Port Arthur is as bad as the member for Sudbury East."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"There is a shortage."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"One of the points mentioned in the debate so far has been whether or not the students would go back to their classrooms. The parents and the pupils who were down here in front of the Legislature building last week in a demonstration on behalf of a return to the classrooms, I am certain, would have no objection at all if the classrooms opened on Monday of next week. We would certainly find nothing wrong, having had a five or six week break, in that the normal spring break would see all of those children back in the classrooms of the York board of education.",
"Let me mention slightly another attitude with respect to students in this province, the minister, the Prime Minister, the Premier, mentioned it --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Which one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Whatever one wants to call him. We call him a lot of other things but I’m sure he’ll take one of those three names --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Delighted -- any time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Right, okay. He mentioned in reply to a question earlier in the week --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What about the World Football League? Is the Premier still supporting Lalonde?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The federal minister probably is in trouble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is the Premier still supporting them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I never did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"It was his statement last week that he did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"That was erroneous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"One thing about the Prime Minister is that he can always change most subjects, no matter how serious, into a discussion on football."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An. hon. member",
"text": [
"He didn’t say anything."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"He is easily sidetracked. He’s got to watch that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Maeck",
"text": [
"Easily sidetracked?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"He admits it. Without even speaking he admits it. He is easily sidetracked. His thinking gets sidetracked right along."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He had better keep his members in line back there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Maeck",
"text": [
"The member will have to go back and pick up the thread."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I have got the thread; I am speaking on the students. In defence of the government being the only party that had an interest in students in this dispute, and the remark made by me in my address on Dec. 18 of last year, with respect to the secondary school students who were out of their classroom in the city of Windsor for 13 school days in January, 1973, that it was ridiculous to suggest, as had two separate speeches made by government members, that their education had been “irreparably damaged,” and I repeat that statement that this has --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Irreparably."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Irreparably -- how’s that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"That was a difficult word."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Yes, I have a little trouble at this time of night.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"And he’s a professor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Professor of what? Dentures?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Not of English, not of English. I started out as an engineer, so I am not supposed to pronounce anything properly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Not only does he need new glasses but new dentures."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He should be running one of the CAAT colleges if he’s an engineer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Well, if I had to depend on low-cost dentures, they wouldn’t be because of any action of the member for -- what is it? -- Ottawa East, on behalf of low-cost dentures in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"He pioneered it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Can we return to the bill please?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I think I can spin it out till 6 now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"The member has covered a lot of subjects,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)",
"text": [
"He’s got five minutes. Let him tell us something in that five minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"No, not yet, I am just starting.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Let’s have his stand on the denturists."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Get going."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Just getting started."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Don’t let us rush the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Oh no, I wouldn’t think of it.",
"Now, with respect to students, Mr. Speaker, for 13 days to have government members suggesting that the educational experience was -- I won’t say irreparably --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Irreparably."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"-- irreparably -- was forever damaged is just ridiculous, and for the Premier to try to twist that, as he did as part of his answer to a question, into a suggestion that the opposition members on this side of the House are not interested in students and in whether or not their classrooms are open so that they can learn is just almost as ridiculous as the members on the government side who made those statements I have quoted in the initial sense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"He’s not going to become provocative at this time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Take that, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We are against compulsory arbitration in any form, but should this bill pass, let me make a suggestion to. the Minister of Education as to whom he might choose, unless agreement is reached between the parties, for his chairman of the arbitration board. Should this bill pass, I would like to make a suggestion to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Is the member seeking to be called?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I am available anytime."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"And the phone number is --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Yes, right,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"He is an engineer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We can write though; we might not be able to spell, but we can write."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Which is more than we can say for the member for Durham. Engineers have been pontificating for years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"My suggestion is that if the minister hasn’t looked at the Saskatchewan legislation in terms of what final legislation he might bring into this province with respect to teachers, he should do so. One of those things is that arbitration can be chosen; they can choose voluntary arbitration, and whether it’s binding or not can also be chosen.",
"They have had some experience in Saskatchewan at the local level with salaries and fringe benefits to settle province-wide; they have had some experience at the local level. The local boards deal only with things like working conditions and pupil-teacher ratios. There have been arbitrations at that level in the Province of Saskatchewan, and therefore chairmen of arbitration boards out there have done arbitrations that have dealt solely with that matter.",
"I would suggest to the minister, for the travel cost that would be involved to the Province of Ontario, that in this arbitration, if it comes to that finally, he might search for one of those experienced arbitrators from the Province of Saskatchewan who have dealt with that touchiest area in this particular dispute. A decision taken by an arbitration board, headed by a chairman who has had that kind of experience, might result in a settlement which would be acceptable in this province, even if the means of arriving at that arbitration board is unacceptable.",
"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Carruthers",
"text": [
"Good speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Make it quick."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"In view of the hour, perhaps the hon. member would like to wait until we resume at 8 o’clock?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"I move the adjournment of the debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The motion to adjourn is not required.",
"It being 6 o’clock, p.m., the House took recess."
]
}
] |
March 13, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-13/hansard-1
|
LAW REFORM COMMISSION REPORT ON FAMILY LAW
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)",
"text": [
"I would like to clarify for the hon. members of this House some comments that were made yesterday during the question period. Following a short briefing with members of my staff, I was under the impression that all representatives of the media who received advance copies of the three reports of the Law Reform Commission tabled yesterday had first approached us to request those reports.",
"In subsequent discussions I have now learned that this was not the case with one media representative. I wish to correct at this time any wrong impression that my comments of yesterday may have left with members of the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"The minister created several."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions. The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
ROOMING HOUSE SAFETY STANDARDS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"In the absence of the Premier (Mr. Davis) and the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells), I will ask a question of the Minister of Housing, to inquire whether he has taken any decision himself, or consulted with his colleagues, about the obvious need for some imposition of province-wide standards for rooming house safety. Does he believe this can be left entirely to the municipalities concerned or is there, in fact, some thought that a provincial intrusion in this matter might be warranted under the circumstances that saw the death of, I believe seven people in Toronto last week?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this matter has not been discussed in the ministry during my tenure. I certainly would be pleased to raise it with the staff, to ascertain first of all what our powers are and how the matter is handled. I would be glad to receive suggestions from the hon. Leader of the Opposition as to how he thinks this matter might be handled. I am prepared to accept reasonable suggestions from any source."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Would the minister not agree that, while this would not form a part of a provincial building code directly, it could very well take the form of something that could be a provincial safety code which could establish the minimum requirements for the municipalities to live up to, and if necessary provide an inspection service, at least on demand, for citizens who might be concerned that it appears the matter is not being adequately looked after at the municipal level?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my limited understanding of the problem is that there are very few competent housing inspectors available to the municipalities, and perhaps the province can assist in that respect. I would like to discuss it with my colleague the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement) in regard to the establishment of a building code, because it is quite possible that a strengthened building code might be part of the solution."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
SEVERANCE PAYMENT TO AGENT GENERAL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would like to ask the Chairman of the Management Board if he recalls approving the decision that resulted in a full year’s pay being granted to the person formerly in charge of Ontario House in London, England; which action has been recently criticized by the Provincial Auditor. Was that payment a severance payment the Provincial Auditor said was made in contravention of provincial regulations, was it in fact made simply to create a vacancy so that Mr. Ward Cornell could be appointed Agent General -- Ward Cornell, who was the chairman of the campaign committee for the Treasurer (Mr. White)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"I doubt very much if that assumption is correct, but I’ll have to investigate the records to determine at what time the decision was made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, could the Chairman of Management Board tell us why Mr. Rowan-Legg, who was packed and on his way back to London, England, was hauled off the plane and told he was being replaced; and whether that sudden decision had anything to do with the inordinate expenditures mentioned by the accountant?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I really don’t think that’s correct at all, but I’m not sure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It is correct,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"The government pays patronage every day of the week; sure it does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I’m not sure of that. If that detail is correct I’ll have to have a look at it; but I refuse to accept it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"He was replaced by Ward Cornell."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Will the minister undertake to report to the House the circumstances which led Management Board to approve this specific payment? Would he also report to the House on the position taken by the auditor, that it was beyond the scope of the regulations to permit severance payments of that size, so that in fact we can have some guidelines to go by, since the government seems to be severing a good many of its high-priced employees and replacing them with some of its closer friends?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I’ll accept the question as notice."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"The minister doesn’t dare sever the member for Lambton (Mr. Henderson)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"What about the patronage appointment of the member for Carleton East (Mr. Lawrence) which just came about?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
APPOINTMENT OF CSAO ARBITRATION MEDIATOR
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Chairman of Management Board: Can the Chairman of the Management Board explain why, when he was informed on Feb. 4 by Mr. Rose, the counsel and registrar of the Ontario Labour Management Arbitration Commission dealing in the present governmental negotiations with the Civil Service Association of Ontario, that Howard Brown would not be able to be a mediator in the current items under dispute, that to this day, March 12, there has been no response, either from government or from the arbitration commission, to the request for the appointment of another mediator?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that subject matter. It probably should be directed to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon), but I’ll take the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"If he were ever here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"The minister of who?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I presume the negotiations with the Civil Service Association have something to do with the Chairman of Management Board and that another five to six weeks have elapsed in a progressively deteriorating relationship around a number of important items; I’d like to know why the minister is allowing that to continue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I have made this statement before in the House, Mr. Speaker. We are prepared to go to the bargaining table at any time. The items which are under dispute are not the fault of the people who are acting on behalf of the Civil Service Commission."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"How is it that five weeks elapse without even a reply to a letter requesting further mediation? Can the minister explain that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"No. I am not aware of that letter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Fine."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I’ll check the records in that regard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"How does he know?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I will repeat that we have made our offers on quite a number of occasions and we are prepared to return to the table on any day that the other side is prepared to do so."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
LEMOINE POINT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Natural Resources: Is the government yet in a position to make a concrete offer for Lemoine Point to be used as a provincial park? Has that point arrived?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, we are not in that position yet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, do I take it that after the appraisal is completed -- I believe the appraisal is, in fact, completed -- it is the minister’s intention to collaborate with the conservation authority in the acquisition of the land?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have not heard from the conservation authorities or even my own ministry with regard to the appraisals; when that information is received, I’ll take the appropriate steps."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
WITHDRAWAL OF TEACHERS’ SERVICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"May I ask the Premier if he wishes to report on any aspect of the state of affairs in York county and the negotiations that may or may not be taking place? I don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing new to report. I anticipate the minister may have something to suggest to the House a little later on this afternoon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is the Premier indicating that the Minister of Education will make a statement or simply introduce legislation, or a combination of the two?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the minister will be here fairly soon, and I’m sure if the member for Brant wishes to ask a question he would be quite prepared to answer it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"It can’t be very good or the Premier would be making it himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Unlike the member we don’t operate that way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"No? Oh no!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Has the hon. member for Scarborough West no further questions?",
"All right, the hon. member for Downsview."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
ADMINISTRATION OF COURTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Attorney General. Could the Attorney General tell me if he is persisting in the view held by his predecessor that the system for administration of the courts should be a part of his department rather than an independent group, bearing in mind the very strong objections to this approach made by the treasurer of the Law Society of Upper Canada and the very strong feelings expressed by several members of the judiciary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will recall that at the time of the tabling of the report dealing with that subject matter, a fairly lengthy statement was made by my predecessor, which represents government policy at this moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, is that government policy under review or does it remain as irrevocable as the laws of the Medes and the Persians?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as part of that statement, the hon. member will recall there was to be a fair emphasis with respect to consultation with all those affected. Indeed, the Speech from the Throne made some reference to that. Following a review with those who are in fact interested in that subject, and we hope that interest would be quite widespread, we would then make some further announcement insofar as implementation is concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, so what the minister’s predecessor said is not necessarily effective."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"No, I don’t think that’s a fair assumption. I think the statement of my predecessor has to be taken in its totality and the question of consultation is part of that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh yes, subject to consultation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"If I might, I would ask the minister when we can expect to see legislation implementing this policy that he talked about with his predecessor. Can we expect it this session?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member will recall, there was reference made to that in the Speech from the Throne, particularly the regionalization insofar as the court system is concerned. Legislation will be coming forward. But I want to underline what the Speech from the Throne said and what I have said in response to the hon. member for Downsview’s question, that there has to be some opportunity for people vitally interested in this subject in fact to make their views known as well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Like the treasurer of the Law Society."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"So the actual timing of this, of course, will depend to some extent on the degree and the scale or scope of that type of discussion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, doesn’t that mean a change in policy?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Has the new Attorney General had an opportunity to read a letter he got from eminent members of the legal profession in Thunder Bay asking him to review the previous stand taken by his predecessor and to assure the public generally that there will be no obvious or less-than-obvious conflict of interest between the various factions within the Attorney General’s ministry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"And all their conflicts of interest in office."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, certainly the correspondence to which the hon. member makes reference is part of the review. I can assure the hon. member that this will be taken into account."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur is next."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
ROUTE OF PETROLEUM PIPELINE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Energy: Did the provincial cabinet take into account, when it decided to accede to the federal government’s decision to go ahead with the Sarnia-Montreal oil pipeline, the fact that the Sault Ste. Marie-Montreal link ultimately would cost less because it would be an integral part of the all-Canadian route?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"With respect, I am not quite sure what the member is driving at. Presumably if one is talking about miles of pipeline, additional pipeline is going to cost more, not less. I think what one has to consider is that the pipelines presently through the United States, either to St. Ignace and down or around the south shore of Lake Michigan, have to be filled to pay for them. I think it’s a real possibility that if you build more pipelines, then someone is going to have to pay for the unfilled pipelines. So I am not sure that the assumption on which the member’s question is made is entirely correct. It may well prove to be, but I am not sure that at this moment that’s clear."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"In view of the minister’s answer, in view of the fact that in Ontario we will ultimately have two pipelines, one coming through southern Ontario and one going through the north, does not the government’s assumption of the unfilled pipeline cost factor, in fact indicate that the doubling that it is now going through would lead to those results?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"The hon. member is making an assumption -- and I hope he’s completely right -- that there will in fact be oil to fill both pipelines. That is not entirely clear at this moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker: Would not the northern route have lent itself to the possibility of the use of oil from the arctic islands and the Hudson Bay lowlands, and thus save costs there if those finds prove to be commercial?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"But not to the use of oil which may be found on the east coast, which at this moment I think is a better probability than the discoveries which the hon. member has mentioned. I hope we’re both right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Yes, but surely --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I don’t think the member is going to get that pipeline up there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"That’s because the member for Sarnia’s federal guys and those provincial guys chickened out!"
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
EXTENSION OF NORONTAIR SERVICE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications in regard to the Throne Speech announcing norOntair in northwestern Ontario. Is the minister in a position to tell us today those four communities that will be served by this system and when the minister expects this system will come into being?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the four communities that were referred to are the communities of Fort Frances, Dryden, Thunder Bay and Red Lake. Those are the four communities. I can’t give the member a definite time when this particular service will start. It is being looked at very seriously in the ministry at the present time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Spring? Summer? Fall?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I can’t give the member a definite time. I would hate to do that because I know he’ll come back at me very quickly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"This year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"If I may steal a phrase from my colleague, the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller), “in the fullness of time.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sudbury East."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"That was not very original."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"It goes back before that time."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
ASSISTANCE TO EMERGING SERVICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Community and Social Services: Based on the six recommendations made by David Cole of the ministry, and apparently concurred in by the Attorney General when he held the social policy ministry, has the government now decided how it intends to fund the emerging services which are in such financial straits, not only here in Toronto but in other parts of the province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, is the member referring to information centres? I missed part of his question. Which services is he --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Boy! Is the minister ever in touch!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"I’m referring to the six recommendations made by David Cole of this ministry to assist the emerging services, primarily the LIP groups, which have developed into emergency services. Mr. Cole of the ministry has made six recommendations. Is the government now in a position to indicate how it intends to financially assist these groups, which include the information services, but also co-ops and so on?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we are funding many organizations which meet our criteria, and as the hon. member probably knows there will be a meeting with the various Metro groups with reference to various requested assets. This meeting will be held soon. We are presently funding several of these organizations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the minister take it as notice and find out?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact that the minister is subsidizing to the tune of only $85,000, and that all of the agencies involved are Metro agencies, and in view of the fact he is meeting on Friday afternoon, doesn’t he think the government should be in a position at this time to indicate to the House how it intends to assist these groups?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, again, as the hon. member mentioned, we are meeting this group soon and we will be indicating to them what assistance will be provided."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Doesn’t the minister think the House should know?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Doesn’t he think we should know?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Waterloo North."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
REPORT ON CONESTOGA COLLEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Could the minister inform the House what action is being taken regarding the recommendations in Dr. Porter’s report on the administrative problems at Conestoga College?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)",
"text": [
"I will attempt to do so in a day or two. I haven’t read the report yet, but I will find out what is going on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Not yet? He has been minister for two weeks now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sudbury."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
COST OF ADVERTISING DENTURE PROGRAMME
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Health: With reference to all this fancy advertising I see in the newspapers regarding the low-cost denture programme, could he tell the House the total cost of this programme? And secondly, how does he justify spending public funds to promote private business?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa East asked that earlier this week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"I asked him that last week, but he didn’t have a very good answer for me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)",
"text": [
"He didn’t ask me that last week, I’m quite sure of that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Let the minister see if he can improve on the answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Yes; the total cost of the programme, I am told, was $30,000. The justification for the programme would be that of almost any governmental programme of information. A programme of providing low-cost dentures was made available and it was necessary to let the people know about that programme and its availability in their immediate area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"It is called back scratching."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"I am glad he didn’t say, “in the fullness of time.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Housing has the answer to a question --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. L. A. Braithwaite (Etobicoke)",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Well, I think the member who asked the question is entitled to one supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wonder how the minister would justify including the names and addresses of dentists as being public information or governmental information?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"Dentists serve the public, don’t they?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Interestingly enough, a number of municipalities, and particularly the welfare groups in them and people in the communities, had clamoured for a listing of the names of the dentists who were available to provide the service and who had volunteered to do so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Why didn’t the dentists do it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"There were only two."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I think the average is a little better than that. I think probably one out of five licensed dentists in the Province of Ontario are participating. There were about 600 names.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There was a supplementary; the hon. member for Etobicoke."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Braithwaite",
"text": [
"Will the minister state whether his department condones the placing of advertisements by private dentists, advertising the fact they have these technicians?",
"And in the light of the same advertisements placed by these dentists, does the $30,000 to which the minister referred include the cost of these advertisements or have the dentists paid for these themselves?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I’m not specifically aware of the privately-placed advertisements. I understand that advertising by dentists as such is governed by the regulations written by the Royal College of Dental Surgeons of Ontario and that they would have to operate under the constraints of those regulations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Braithwaite",
"text": [
"A further supplementary: in view of the fact that this matter has already been brought to the attention of the minister’s predecessor in the House, and since there have been individual dentists who have been putting these sort of advertisements in local papers, would the minister look into this matter and report back to this House as to what steps his ministry is taking?",
"Secondly, I don’t think I got an answer as to whether or not these ads have been paid for by the government out of the $30,000 to which the minister referred."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I think the hon. member and I would need to look at specific advertisements to decide what he was talking about. Certainly we paid for no advertisements other than the ones the member for Sudbury has just shown us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"A full-page ad."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"As I understand, there were some advertisements placed by the Ontario Dental Association, which did not name specific dentists but, in the main, gave the fact that low-cost denture service was available, and I believe a number to which a person could call for information. It is also my understanding that these advertisements were paid for by the association rather than by individual dentists in that group."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Housing."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
OHC BUDGET
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Scarborough West asked yesterday: In the light of the vigorous housing efforts planned, why have the budget estimates of OHC dropped by $20 million, according to the most recent issue -- Jan. 31, 1974, table 5 -- of Ontario finances? They are down from $69 million to $49 million.",
"I’m now in a position to advise the hon. member that the ministry informed the Treasurer, for his quarterly report, that in the last quarter of the year we were going to underspend our mortgage requirements by $20 million."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Why?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The reason for this is that in the previous fiscal year OHC stopped lending money on high-rise condominiums since there were adequate private funds flowing into that area of the housing market and the supply of such housing at that time was sufficient. This decision resulted in lower commitments of funds and hence lower cash flows for 1973-1974. It has no bearing on our budget for 1974-1975.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is the minister telling the House then that there wasn’t sufficient imagination within the Ontario Housing Corp., or within the Ministry of Housing, to find an alternative use for the $20 million, given the housing crisis in Ontario? Are they that bankrupt as a department?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, I was not suggesting that at all. I am suggesting that there was a change in the cash flow and the mortgaging requirements of OHC."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh nonsense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The money was dormant; like everything else in housing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I think to say there were not sufficient people looking for mortgages --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is this a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I did say that. I’m sorry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Well there was so much noise I didn’t hear the hon. member. If that was a supplementary I’ll permit it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Is the minister saying that there were not sufficient numbers of people looking for mortgages that that $20 million couldn’t have been utilized?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is not a function of OHC to supplement the mortgage market in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Of course it is. That is what the money was there for.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The hon. members would have been the first to complain if we had diverted mortgage money from one area to another without the authority."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No we would not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Of course they would."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On a point of order: We would not have complained had the minister diverted that mortgage money from condominiums into low- or middle-income housing, not at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why didn’t he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Terrible bankruptcy of imagination."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
U.S.-CANADA FREIGHT SURCHARGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Is the minister aware that two weeks ago the United States interstate commerce commission imposed a six per cent surcharge tax on freight, which is being applied the entire distance from the American port of origin to the Canadian destination, whereas a surcharge should only apply as far as a Canadian point of entry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Good question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"It is an excellent question. Mr. Speaker, no, I was not aware that this was so and I would appreciate if the hon. member can make the information available to me. I will certainly look into that situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The Minister of Natural Resources has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
COMMUNICATIONS-6 INC.
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Downsview asked me a question last week. He wanted me to explain: “the basis on which payments in the amount of $59,578 were made to a firm of consultants and writers on public relations to manage the information and public relations programme for the historical parks in that year.” He also wanted to know who they were, who found them and on whose authority this expenditure was made.",
"He asked further, by way of supplementary: “Could the minister shed a little light on who Communications-6 Inc. really is?”",
"My reply is that in the formation of the new government ministries on April 1, 1972, the direction of the Huronia historical parks of the former Department of Tourism and Information was assigned to the new Ministry of Natural Resources. Prior to this transfer, the Department of Tourism and Information had established in 1968 a committee of senior officials, including the deputy minister of that department, to select a firm to develop a public relations and publications programme for Huronia historical parks. This committee requested several public relations firms to submit formal presentations, and following an analysis of these presentations the firm of Communications-6 Inc. was selected.",
"On the basis of satisfactory past performance, the details of the annual public relations programme were established each year by the director of the historical sites branch and transmitted to the consultants.",
"A similar arrangement was negotiated and confirmed in May, 1973, for the 1973-1974 fiscal year, with the same firm based on their performance in 1972. On the basis of this arrangement my ministry approved the accounts for payment. Subsequently, in accordance with normal ministry policy, the director of our historical sites branch, whose duties include the management of the Huronia historical parks, was informed that in future proposals must be invited from several public relations firms and Management Board approval obtained for the award of that contract.",
"In this connection I might add, and also inform the members, that some two weeks ago we invited proposals from 16 firms for the forthcoming season.",
"The firm of Communications-6 Inc. has its head office in Montreal with a major office in Toronto and affiliations in Ottawa, New York, London, Paris and Brussels. The president is Mr. C. R. Haworth and we were advised by Mr. Haworth that the firm was incorporated in December, 1963."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Colleges and Universities has the answer to a previous question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Has he been here before?"
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
REPORT ON CONESTAGA COLLEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have checked my files and I have the answer to a question which the hon. member asked a moment ago.",
"I understand that in November the board of governors approached my predecessor to ask him to institute a study of all aspects of the operation of the college. My predecessor appointed Dr. Arthur Porter of the University of Toronto. He submitted his report on Feb. 10 and the college board is dealing with it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker: Since the minister authorized the investigation into the administration of the college, is the ministry not inserting itself into the matter any further in view of the difference of opinion, in the published report, between the faculty and the administrative staff at the college?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the minister simply appointed a person to look into the situation at the request of the college board and the college board, as part of its responsibility, has taken the report and is going to deal with it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I believe the hon. Minister of Housing has the answer to another question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to a question asked by the member for Wentworth yesterday. However, the hon. member has kindly informed me that he has additional information which I suggested he supply, so perhaps I could defer the answer to his question until I’ve received that information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Good idea; sit down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I believe it is the New Democratic Party’s turn. The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
PENSIONS FOR PERMANENTLY DISABLED WORKMEN
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"If the member can get his attention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"-- regarding pensions for permanently disabled workmen. Is there any other pension, federal or provincial, that has not been escalated, within let us say the last 10 years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I will have to get that information for the hon. member. I don’t know, but I shall endeavour to find out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Is there anything about injured workmen that makes them impervious to the effects of inflation, and did the remarks in the Throne Speech indicate that some help was on its way to these people?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, to answer the first part of the question, there is nothing that I know of that makes injured workmen or any other group in this society impervious to the effects of inflation.",
"As far as the second part of the question is concerned, quite obviously matters of government policy will be announced here in the House at the appropriate time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Oh, the Premier just wags his finger at Ottawa all the time and says what they are not doing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"We wouldn’t do that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Peel South."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
VETERANS’ LAND ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Housing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"A member of cabinet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the member ask him when he is in cabinet meetings?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is the member dissatisfied with him too?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"In view of the housing needs here and the impending closedown of the Veterans’ Land Act on March 31, I was wondering if the minister would communicate with the federal Minister of Veterans’ Affairs to determine if this is under reconsideration and if indeed a continuation is warranted?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It depends on the federal Tories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Very good question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Twenty million dollars the government didn’t use would have financed a lot of houses."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the provisions of the Veterans’ Land Act have in fact --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"That Act is as old as this government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)",
"text": [
"Not quite."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"It’s been a very successful Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"It has been a very successful Act.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there has been a very successful programme under the Veterans’ Land Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the minister take this question as notice? Take it as notice."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He can’t reply to this kind of question without advance information. He’d best take it as notice."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I don’t need it. I will be meeting with the hon. Mr. Basford in a couple of weeks. I understand it is due to expire within that period; however, I will be discussing it with him. I think it is a sound suggestion, if that interest rate can be maintained under present-day conditions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He isn’t the Minister of Veterans’ Affairs."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Is the member satisfied with that answer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There were about five members of the Liberal Party, and I am certain I don’t know who was first."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The fellow he is meeting has nothing to do with veterans’ affairs. Is the member satisfied with that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. There are at least four members before the hon. member for York Centre (Mr. Deacon). The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville, I think."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
SALES TAX ON SPORTS EQUIPMENT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Revenue, if I can get his attention. As he is walking back to his seat, I would like to go on with the question --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Me?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"He is the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Yes, he is the fellow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"He’s not quite sure yet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"It was so long in coming."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"In the interest of promoting fitness and encouraging greater participation in amateur sport, is the minister considering eliminating the sales tax on sports equipment that is purchased by organized amateur sports organizations, especially those recognized by the Ministry of Community and Social Services?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my Ministry of Revenue administers the laws as established by this Legislature, and particularly as recommended by the Treasurer and Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs. I don’t think it would be fair to say that I was considering that.",
"I suppose it is fair to say that since the Retail Sales Tax Act does come under my ministry we have occasion to review matters such as this, but the final decision is not one that is in my hands alone."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary? Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"May I ask the minister if he is considering issuing exemption certificates to amateur sports organizations in the same way that exemption certificates are issued to school boards so they may purchase athletic equipment and not pay the sales tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that is a matter I have been looking at, but it offers a considerable number of problems and I am not at this time prepared to say I would issue such a certificate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It is under review, as the front bench says. Everything is under review."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor West."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
RECONSTRUCTION OF HIGHWAY 401 NEAR WINDSOR
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That is the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, where is the schedule for reconstruction of the right-hand lane of Highway 401 proceeding westward to Windsor, from about 10 to 15 miles out, which for the last five to seven years has been reminiscent of the old corduroy roads in northern Ontario? It was supposed to be started and completed this spring and summer --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"There are new corduroy roads in northern Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"He forgot all about those roads. Some of his best speeches in the House have been about roads."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"What about the new corduroy roads in northern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like very much to answer the hon. member’s question if I could have heard him behind the noise made by his colleagues. I think he referred to Highway 401, but if they would quieten down for him I would be pleased to hear it again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"No one said a word."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"It is about a portion of 10 to 15 miles out of Windsor, heading west, the right hand lane, which has been reminiscent of the northern corduroy roads for the last five to seven years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"All the rates are up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"When will the construction start, and will it be commenced and finished this summer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"The contract’s been let."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I can’t give the member a direct answer at this time. I will be pleased to provide the information as to when it can be done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Try an indirect answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I appreciate that the member recognizes that there is a need for highways in the north, though."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"The roads will be completed by September."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The minister should have told the northwestern Ontario Chamber of Commerce that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I thought the hon. member for St. George had a question?"
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
ASSESSMENT NOTICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Revenue.",
"Would he clarify for this House the policy which appears to have been arrived at whereby no assessment notices are to be extended this year to the people of Ontario, save and except for new construction and special circumstances, thus denying a large proportion of people the right of appeal?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Mean",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have no information on that at the moment. I will get it for the hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: I wonder if the minister would also look into the situation in the matter of a condominium project in the riding of St. George, namely 40 Homewood, where there has been an appeal successfully made by those who did take title in the fall of 1972, but no further appeal has been heard, although it has been launched by the commissioner as of June, 1973; meanwhile those who were not included in that appeal are faced with an old assessment and no right to appeal at this time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I will look into that matter, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
HICKLING-JOHNSTON REPORT ON MINISTRY OF HEALTH
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister willing to make public the report prepared for and about his department by the firm of Hickling-Johnston?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I must say that question from the member came as something of a surprise."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"One a day!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"Just answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"An apple a day keeps the doctor away; the minister should try it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"If it would cut my OHIP premiums, I would do that. I really would have to learn more about that report because quite honestly at this point I don’t know much about the contents of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker: Will the minister familiarize himself with what is occurring in the ministry and report back to us on whether he is willing to make that report public or table it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I may have misinterpreted the member’s question. Does he mean would I familiarize myself with what is happening in the ministry or with what the report says is happening within the ministry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Why not both?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I would be pleased to do so. I am doing my best to do the former and I will be pleased to do the latter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I think the hon. member for Kitchener is next."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
EXPENDITURE BY CHAIRMAN OF ONTARIO COUNCIL OF REGENTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Has the minister ordered a review of the apparent expenditure by the chairman of the Ontario Council of Regents for the colleges of applied arts and technology, and his expenditures for a hospitality suite during the meetings of the regents as referred to in the auditor’s report? Will the minister provide us with the details of the expenses of that operation and the persons who received the hospitality?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have made inquiries about this. I am informed that the chairman of the Council of Regents lives in Markham. When the council has its bi-monthly meetings they last for about two days. He has premises in the hotel where the meeting takes place, not primarily for his own convenience but for meetings with members of the board -- individual meetings and that sort of thing rather than the general meeting. I am informed that, in fact, it is probably less costly to have him staying in the hotel than it is to have him going back and forth to Markham by taxi. I can get the detailed rundown if the hon. member would like it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Let him try using a car like the rest of us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld",
"text": [
"I haven’t read the detailed part in the auditor’s report myself but I assume that the details are there. If they aren’t, I’ll get further information for him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Lakeshore."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
AGE OF CONSENT FOR ABORTIONS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Health.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"What are the minister’s reasons, metaphysical, biological or otherwise, for reducing the age at which abortions may be obtained without parental consent to 16?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the member has misinterpreted the regulation in the same way as the press has."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Straighten us out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"The Province of Ontario by itself does not set the conditions under which an abortion may be performed. This is done by federal statute. The change in regulations which was made by the Province of Ontario, and given some press publicity last week, dealt with the age at which consent could be given for any surgical operation performed within a hospital, and of course abortion is a surgical operation.",
"It was not aimed at abortions per se. It was to cover a group of people who, for one reason or other, either had not official guardians or parents who could sign for them or who, unfortunately in this mobile modern society, did not relate to their parents and so were not in contact with them. A number of these people were coming into hospitals in need of all kinds of surgical procedures and legally there was no way of providing them. Some of them were falsifying names and ages and leaving the hospitals in very delicate legal conditions if they served them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Would the hon. minister consider excluding this particular category of surgical operation from the regulations?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I certainly will listen to any suggestions that are given at this point in time. I wouldn’t want to say that we could necessarily start making exclusions of one type or another, because I think --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Abortion is not one type or another."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"-- exclusions can be very dangerous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa East."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"I defer to my friend, Mr. Speaker, thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Essex South."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
POINT PELEE NATIONAL PARK
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. A. Paterson (Essex South)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Has he or his policy group made a decision as yet as to whether the 1974 licences for sand-sucking operations off Pt. Pelee National Park are going to be issued or not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report to the hon. member that that decision has been reached."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Paterson",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: The minister says the decision has been reached?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"It has been reached."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Paterson",
"text": [
"And what is that decision?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"That decision? The decision was that the two licences would not be reissued."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
USE OF RESOURCES IN ARMSTRONG AREA
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. In view of the social and economic problems experienced by the people of Armstrong, and in light of the fact there are several hundred thousand cords of good merchantable timber in the area, will the minister undertake to insist that the prime licence-holder utilize that timber for a saw-log operation for the benefit of the people in the community of Armstrong, or turn those timber stands over to somebody else who is prepared to use them to look after the social and economic needs of that town?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"I can relate to the hon. member for Thunder Bay that this government is very concerned with the future and the people of the Armstrong area because of certain actions of the federal government.",
"With regard to the resources in that particular area, I would point out to him that they have been allocated to the St. Lawrence Corp. for processing in the Red Rock area. I have been in verbal discussion with the company. They are to present to me a proposal which will fully utilize all those resources. But they did point out to me in their discussion that if there were going to be a continuous operation at Red Rock and if the viability of that particular mill were to be maintained, it may well be that the resources in the Armstrong area would have to be directed to the Red Rock mill. That was only in a verbal discussion and we are waiting for something from them in a more formal way at the present time.",
"Of course, we have in our hand a proposal from a gentleman by the name of Buchanan, I believe, who is most interested in establishing an operation in the Armstrong area; and we are certainly considering that aspect too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"We have already exceeded the question period by about three minutes.",
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present to the members of the Legislature a copy of a report of the advisory committee on the revision of the Mining Act.",
"The members will recall that this committee was established approximately two years ago under the chairmanship of the present Minister of Transportation and Communications, my former parliamentary assistant, the hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie (Mr. Rhodes).",
"In the course of carrying out its responsibilities, the committee examined comparable legislation and situations in several other jurisdictions. Their aim was to ensure that Ontario continued to be the leader in respect to mining legislation.",
"I am indeed grateful to the members of the committee for the very thorough study that they have carried out. I have had a brief opportunity to peruse the report and more particularly the recommendations. In my own opinion, there is a great deal of merit in many of the recommendations. I feel sure there will be revisions to our legislation which will result from the discussions that will flow from the study of this report.",
"At the same time, I want to make clear that the government has rejected recommendation No. 51 which proposes mining in provincial parks.",
"Consistent with tabling this report in the Legislature, it is my intention to make copies available to the executive of such organizations as the prospectors and developers, the Ontario Mining Association and the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy. The views of these organizations, along with the recommendations of individuals, other organizations, as well as the views and comments of the individual members of this House, will be of great benefit to me and my staff.",
"It is proposed that all such views and recommendations be submitted prior to the end of June. This will allow the summer and the early fall to distill the recommendations in the report and the reactions to the recommendations through the course of the summer, in the interest of developing the appropriate revisions to the legislation for the fall sitting of this Legislature.",
"Once more, I would like to express my appreciation to my colleague who chaired the committee -- he did an excellent job -- and to the individual members of the committee, and to all those who have or will have or will be assisting us in any way in the development of this legislation.",
"Mr. Carruthers from the select committee appointed to prepare the lists of members to compose the standing committees of the House, presented the committee’s report which was read as follows:",
"“Your Committee recommends that the lists of standing committees ordered by the House be composed of the following members:",
"“1. PROCEDURAL AFFAIRS: Messrs. Bales, Bounsall, Burr, Carton, Dymond, Edighoffer, Ewen, Henderson, Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton), Johnston, McNie, Morrow, Smith (Hamilton Mountain), Smith (Nipissing), Spence, Timbrell, Turner -- 17.",
"“2. ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE: Messrs. Bullbrook, Carruthers, Davison, Downer, Drea, Givens, Havrot, Lane, Lawlor, Lawrence, MacBeth, Nixon (Dovercourt), Renwick, Ruston, Singer, Taylor, Walker, Wardle, Yaremko -- 19.",
"“3. SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Messrs. Apps, Belanger, Campbell (Mrs.), Deacon, Dukszta, Eaton, Foulds, Hamilton, Irvine, Jessiman, Leluk, Martel, Morningstar, Newman (Windsor-Walkerville), Parrott, Reilly, Roy, Scrivener (Mrs.), Villeneuve -- 19.",
"“4. RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT: Messrs. Allan, Beckett, Evans, Gaunt, Gilbertson, Good, Laughren, MacDonald, Maeck, McIlveen, McNeil, Nuttall, Paterson, Rollins, Root, Sargent, Stokes, Wiseman, Yakabuski -- 19.",
"“5. MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES: Messrs. Cassidy, Drea, Evans, Gisborn, Haggerty, Hamilton, Jessiman, Leluk, Nixon (Dovercourt), Nuttall, Parrott, Riddell, Root, Scrivener (Mrs.), Stokes, Villeneuve, Wardle, Worton -- 18.",
"“6. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS: Messrs. Allan, Dymond, Ferrier, Germa, Lane, MacBeth, McIlveen, Reid, Ruston, Taylor, Wiseman, Yakabuski -- 12.",
"“7. REGULATIONS: Messrs. Belanger, Braithwaite, Deans, Havrot, Johnston, Maeck, Morningstar, Morrow, Paterson, Reilly, Turner, Young -- 12.",
"“The quorum of committees 1 to 5 and of the private bills committee to be seven in each case. The quorum of committees 6 and 7 to be five in each case.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to request of the government that they consider permitting substitution of individuals to all committees prior to the sitting of the committee. The estimates committee now makes provision so that before the estimates are being discussed --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please. I must point out to the hon. member that the matter of substitutions was dealt with previously. The motion today does not deal with substitutions on these particular committees. That motion has been before the House previously."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"But the opposition was ignored."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if I may, sir, the matter of substitutions was a matter of discussion within the committee this morning, and a decision was reached in the committee that the chairman would make representation to the House leader of the government party to allow limited substitution on all committees. I think that’s probably what the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville was talking about. If not contained in the report of the committee, it was certainly a decision of the committee that the chairman would speak with the House leader of the government and ask on behalf of the committee that some limited substitution be permitted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, following the discussion in the House the other day, I think I intimated to the hon. members that I certainly had an open mind on the matter. When the chairman approaches me we will discuss the matter and I will report back to the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Is it just a matter for discussion?",
"Report adopted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
YORK COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION TEACHERS’ DISPUTE ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"No!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Explain!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No. Surely we can have an explanation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"We will defer the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The minister was not in for the order of business entitled government ministerial statements. Certainly it would be quite in order to revert, surely, if the minister would have a statement to make before we are asked to vote on the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"If the House is agreeable I see no reason we should not revert and that the minister should make a statement at this point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wish to introduce legislation today to bring to an end the long dispute and disruption of educational programmes in the secondary schools of the York county Board of Education.",
"Negotiations relating to the 1973-1974 contract began with York county board and its secondary school teachers in April, 1973, which is more than 10 months ago. Free collective bargaining has proceeded through this extended period, assisted in the latter stages by the services of a mediator from the Ministry of Labour. The past 5½ weeks have been marked by a withdrawal of services by a majority of York county secondary school teachers. Unfortunately, because of this situation, the secondary school students of York county have been severely disadvantaged due to their lack of access to a full educational programme.",
"Mr. Speaker, members will recall that about 667 York county secondary school teachers took part in a mass resignation last November. These resignations were to have taken effect on Dec. 31 but as part of an arrangement that affected teachers in several areas of the province, it was agreed to defer them until Jan. 31, 1974, in order to allow further bargaining to continue.",
"Bargaining, supported by mediation, did indeed continue, but as the Jan. 31 deadline approached it became apparent that a settlement was not going to be achieved at that time. Mr. Terry Mancini, the Ministry of Labour mediator who had been working with the York county board and its teachers since early January, wrote a report and recommendation on the situation on Jan. 30. In it he said, and I quote:",
"“The writer feels that a settlement could have been achieved if the matter of pupil-teacher ratio issue could be resolved. However, both parties remain adamant and refuse to settle this issue. It is my opinion that a closing of the schools by either party is not in the best interests of all concerned and strongly recommend that the parties submit this dispute to voluntary arbitration.”",
"As Minister of Education I put the proposal for voluntary arbitration to both parties at that time and strongly recommended that this course be followed in order to keep York county secondary schools open and operating normally. Unfortunately, the parties could not agree on the terms of arbitration and the result was that the 667 teachers withdrew their services.",
"Mr. Speaker, with settlements having been achieved in all other parts of the province where mass resignations had been submitted, it seemed clear to me that the best solution to the York county situation was to encourage both parties to negotiate their way out of the dispute and to reach an agreement between themselves with the participation of Mr. Mancini, who continued to provide skilled assistance in keeping negotiations moving forward.",
"Mr. Speaker, I personally spent many hours dealing with both parties in a concerted effort to achieve a negotiated settlement. However, five more weeks passed without significant progress, with the schools in the meantime able to provide only minimal progress at best to their students.",
"Last Friday, negotiations between the board and the teachers clearly reached a state of impasse, with neither party willing to adjust its position in a way that would lead to further meaningful discussions. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, late Friday evening I again presented privately to the negotiating teams of both the teachers and the board a proposal that they proceed voluntarily to refer the items remaining in dispute to a board of arbitration.",
"Later that evening the chief negotiator of the board, Mr. Honsberger, indicated the board’s willingness to accept my proposal and he signed a document to affirm this. The teachers’ negotiating team advised me on Saturday that it was unwilling to accept the proposal for voluntary arbitration.",
"At this 11th hour, Mr. Speaker, with voluntary arbitration obviously the most favourable option open to both parties, I called a further meeting of teacher and board representatives on Sunday morning. At this time I formally presented my proposal for voluntary arbitration, the proposal which I tabled in this House yesterday. Once again, Mr. Speaker, the chief negotiator for the board signed to affirm his acceptance and the teachers’ negotiating team refused. I asked the teachers to take another day to consider the proposal further, but last night they remained unchanged in their position.",
"Mr. Speaker, in all good conscience this government cannot allow this situation to continue, primarily because of the fact that students are caught in the middle of a situation over which they have no control and it is they who are suffering the consequences most severely. We have absolutely no alternative but to bring this stalemate to a conclusion.",
"This we are doing today with the introduction of legislation designed to settle all matters remaining in dispute between the board and its secondary school teachers. In considering this legislation and the solution it proposes, responsible persons would do well to remember very clearly the effects of these past 5½ weeks on the secondary students of York county. They have been deprived of about 10 per cent of their school year. Some York county students may miss out on scholarships because of the dispute, and others may find their post-secondary education plans changed also because of it. Some students are reported to have dropped out of school.",
"Mr. Speaker, the objective of the legislation is simply to return York county secondary schools to normal operation again. Being realistic, I imagine that it will be variously interpreted as being anti-teacher or anti-board. It is neither. It is pro-student. Students and their parents have the right to an education, and they have been deprived of that right for too long.",
"The legislation which we hope will correct the situation has two main features. It calls for teachers to return to school immediately and for the board of education to resume their employment. It requires that all items remaining in dispute be referred to a three-person board of arbitration for settlement. Each party will select one member of the board of arbitration, and these two persons will jointly select a third person to act as chairman. If they cannot agree, I, as Minister of Education, will appoint an independent and objective person as chairman.",
"Procedures laid down for the board of arbitration will ensure fairness in judging the merits of the arguments put forward by both the teachers and the board of education.",
"Both parties will be called upon to write up their own lists of items they consider to be in dispute, and the board of arbitration will be required to look at all items on both lists and give each party ample opportunity to state its case on each item.",
"These aspects of the terms of reference of the board of arbitration deserve special mention. First, the board must consider pupil-teacher ratio as an arbitrable item. Second, the board of education’s latest salary offer must be considered as a floor by the board of arbitration; and in fact it is implemented by this legislation, effective September, 1973.",
"As I have said, Mr. Speaker, I am convinced that this legislation is on balance equally fair to both the York county Board of Education and its secondary school teachers. We are proceeding today because we feel that such legislation is in the public interest, and particularly the interests of the students of York county.",
"Further, Mr. Speaker, it is my sincere hope that both parties in York county will make one final effort to reach an agreement through further negotiations. I stand ready to withdraw this bill at a moment’s notice if an agreement were reached and ratified by both parties, and communicated to me while we are debating this bill in this Legislature. But I would say, Mr. Speaker, we cannot in good faith wait any longer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, will you permit a question of clarification? Is the minister in his statement making it clear to the arbitrator that the pupil-teacher ratio is itself arbitrable, and not whether or not it should be an arbitrable item; if the minister gets the significance of that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, he is saying that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"In other words, government policy is being imposed in that regard and it reverses the trustees’ position."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that is the intention of the government in this bill. The section says pupil-teacher ratio is arbitrable and shall be deemed to be included as a matter in dispute; and the notice is referred to in section 1."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"May I also ask a point of clarification? Are there any penalty provisions in the bill, as the minister has laid it out, if teachers do not return; or is there a reference to the acceptance of resignations if they do not return?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"The section says where, on the application of the board or a teacher, a judge of the Supreme Court is satisfied that the board or any teachers failed to comply with section 2, he may make an order requiring, as the case may be, the board to employ the teacher who has attempted to comply with section 2 or the teacher who has failed to comply with section 2 to resume his employment with the board, in accordance with this contract of employment in effect on Jan. 30, 1974."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"With your permission, Mr. Speaker, will the minister make it clear whether or not his ceilings apply to the arbitrators in this particular piece of legislation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there is nothing in this legislation that refers to ceilings."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Ceilings are not the problem anyway."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"It is exactly as the suggestion made for voluntary arbitration that we talked about here last December. The arbitrator will consider the issues in dispute on their merits and bring down an award."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Shall the motion for first reading of this bill carry?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Those in favour of first reading of the bill will please say “aye”.",
"Those opposed will please say “nay”.",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it.",
"Motion agreed to; first reading of the bill.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Any further bills?",
"Orders of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of this session."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please, the hon. member for Beaches-Woodbine has the floor."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
THRONE SPEECH DEBATE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. A. Wardle (Beaches-Woodbine)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my first remarks in this debate on the Speech from the Throne are a tribute to you as the Speaker of this Legislature. The office of the Speaker is one of honour, dignity, tradition and of the greatest importance in the conduct of our parliamentary system of government. You have carried with distinction, good humour and fairness this heavy responsibility, and you are held in high regard, I am sure, by all members of this House.",
"Mr. Speaker, there are a number of important matters raised in the Speech from the Throne and hopefully each will be dealt with during the present session. However, before speaking on some of these matters I should like to make a few comments on previous suggestions I have made in the Throne Speech debate during the last session and also in the budget debate at that time.",
"One of the suggestions that I made in the Throne Speech debate a year ago was the necessity of stopping immediately the sale of recreational land in Ontario to people who are not Canadian citizens. We know that already large amounts of recreational land in Ontario have been bought up by Americans and people from overseas. This has had the effect of forcing up prices and, I am sure, putting out of reach of the average Canadian the purchase of land in these recreational areas. This would mean of course that the title to recreational lands now held by Americans and others would still be valid but future sales of new land or lands already held would be permitted only to Canadian citizens.",
"Mr. Speaker, in the budget debate in the last session I spoke of the need for assistance to small business. It seems to me that more and more the business of this province is going into the hands of big business enterprises. This trend is alarming indeed for the small merchant and the small businessman of this province. These people are faced with increased taxes, increased rent on their premises, increased wages, increased costs of raw materials and general increases in the cost of doing business. They often lack the cash resources required today.",
"Income and corporation taxes take a large slice of any profits they may realize, which certainly does not leave enough money for expansion. It seems many of them are merely holding their own and many are fighting a losing battle against the large shopping plazas which surround suburban areas of many of the cities and towns in Ontario.",
"There are several ways that the government could help these people: first, by relieving them of some of the tax burden; second, by providing low-cost loans for rehabilitation of stores and business premises; third, by granting them remuneration for the cost of collecting provincial sales taxes, and fourth, by offering expert advice when required.",
"I suggested before, and I suggest again, that the government should set up what I would call an advisory council of independent businessmen who would act as a liaison between government and small business.",
"Mr. Speaker, and fellow members, I intend in this debate to present the record of the government and to state the advantages and benefits which are contained in the number of challenging proposals, programmes and policies of the Throne Speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"That would try even the member’s imagination."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"He shouldn’t embarrass himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"I want to speak at some length about the imaginative and innovative proposals contained in the Throne Speech related to housing, consumer protection, correctional services --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Oh, come on, we don’t believe it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- programmes for small businesses, and new developments for daycare centres."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I must have been in some other chamber the day of the speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"But before I proceed to launch into specifics of these public policy issues, there is an urgent need to consider, on a broader perspective and a wider scale, the purposes and goals of these programmes and policies contained in the Throne Speech.",
"What underlies the proposals and policies of the Throne Speech? It is a philosophy of concern for the individual citizen in Ontario. The government believes that policies must always be designed to assist and encourage the individual to function effectively and creatively in a free society; to develop the skills necessary for him or her to reach his or her full potential; to encourage a climate of individual initiative and independence free of increasing regulation and regimentation from a variety of social and economic institutions, and yet provide a sufficient number of buffer zones and mechanisms for people to act freely from discrimination and suppression."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The member is reading it very effectively. It must have been written by a Harvard speech writer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"It is the underlying philosophy of the government to continue to emphasize these principles and to see to it that these principles constitute the thrust of implementation in the programmes and policies of this Throne Speech.",
"It is also important to remind hon. members that the government is consciously aware of the principles of balance which needs to be continually maintained between the affairs and activities of the private sector and the public sector. Unhealthy, dangerous and unwise would be the most descriptive terms to define the state of man’s affairs when government tends to encroach continuously on the private actions of citizens and groups.",
"As Progressive Conservatives, our philosophy is suitably attuned to understand and appreciate the sensitivities of all Ontario citizens --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"The government intervenes much too much these days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- in not wanting to realize a trend of growing government involvement and participation in our economy and society that lacks coherent direction, meets specific objectives and responds to well-defined needs of our citizenry.",
"What we, as Progressive Conservatives, attach considerable importance to is the role of the individual --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"The member is one of the last true Progressive Conservatives."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- in a complex urban and industrial world, in helping and assisting him or her not just to cope with massive change, but to function freely, effectively and creatively.",
"I Mr. Speaker, now to the government’s programmes and policies. First, housing.",
"As I have mentioned previously, the government’s concern for the role of the individual in Ontario’s society is based on assisting and encouraging him or her to make a significant contribution to the individual’s development and to society.",
"With this basic objective in mind, the government has undertaken several new initiatives to meet the housing problem. One of these major initiatives announced recently by the government was the Ontario Home Renewal Programme. The major purpose of this new programme is to assist residents in municipalities in retaining and updating existing housing stock where the federal Neighbourhood Improvement Programme and the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Programme do not apply as defined by Central Mortgage and Housing Corp.",
"The form of this provincial assistance will be in the form of municipal grants; low-interest loans amounting to approximately $10 million. The funds will be divided on a per capita basis of $4 for municipalities of 5,000 population or less; $3 per capita for cities between 5,000 and 100,000; and $2 per capita to cities of more than 100,000.",
"The other significant feature of this programme is that there is no maximum or minimum on the grants and loans, thus permitting the municipalities to have as much flexibility built into the programme as is possible.",
"Administration is to be central at the regional and local levels. It is but one more example of the government’s strong and sincere effort to decentralize the operation of a provincial programme and attests to our endeavours to make municipal government vital and decisive -- despite rather unfounded claims of current critics.",
"I know what the Ontario task force on housing recommended. I also know that the government has a number of policy options in the housing field under consideration and review. I would trust that among these options to minimize the housing problems are the possibilities of providing loan assistance to families for purchasing land on which mobile homes could be placed -- that is in certain sections of Ontario. I realize that high land costs and very restrictive zoning regulations presently prohibit mobile homes from being considered as a viable housing alternative.",
"Another innovative measure that could be considered at least in parts of Ontario would be to study the possibility of using shell housing as an answer to the critical housing shortage. Recent reports indicate that the shell housing concept has met with some reasonable success in Atlantic Canada. I realize that some substantial modification of the concept would be required to be useful in large urban markets, particularly in light of the fact that low land costs and a high handyman’s tradition have combined to assist in making this type of housing useful in Atlantic Canada.",
"I would like also to congratulate the government for implementing the proposal for the new Ministry of Housing. In its very short existence, the housing ministry has already proved its real worth in the new and exciting programmes which it has undertaken.",
"Certainly, we on this side of the House understand the very vital role of the private sector in implementing new housing programmes, in its expertise in providing a wide range of choices for consumers.",
"We should not dictate to the private sector in order to meet the housing problem, but instead use a co-operative approach and partnership basis to meet housing needs. Confrontation and dictation to the housing industry are not the most satisfactory method of resolving the problem, whether it is getting the private sector to build more condominiums or involvement in the rent supplement programme.",
"I am interested, Mr. Speaker, in the new initiatives and the rejuvenating of urban areas in this province. I note that in Ontario last year 100,000 housing units were started. However, I note that many older units were destroyed in older neighbourhoods to provide this new housing.",
"I welcome the suggestion that the provincial government enter into full consultation with municipal authorities in providing a new programme to be called the Ontario Home Renewal Programme. As already mentioned, the present federal RRAP programme provides low-interest, partly forgivable loans to homeowners, landlords and non-profit housing corporations under certain conditions; but only within areas designated for funding under the Neighbourhood Improvement Programme. Non-profit housing, however, can get this aid despite its location.",
"This has had the effect of barring some homeowners and landlords from receiving needed help because their homes are not located in a designated area. They feel that they are being discriminated against and, after all, they are. Through their taxes they are helping to pay the cost of this type of programme. When they are paying the cost, they should have, if they qualify, the benefits that come through this or any other type of programme.",
"I believe this programme would be beneficial to many people owning homes in my riding. Beaches-Woodbine riding has many homes that were constructed 50 to 75 years ago. Although many are well kept, others are in need of rehabilitation in order to bring them up to acceptable housing standards.",
"The city of Toronto has had for many years a home inspection programme. When matters affecting health and safety are found, the homeowner is required to make the necessary repairs. The city provides low-cost loans when this is necessary. However, some people, especially older people, find it very difficult to pay for such improvements. It seems to me that a programme of grants would be helpful to them.",
"There is another matter that also affects homeowners that has concerned me over many years. That is the matter of how a homeowner goes about getting necessary repairs done to the satisfaction of city officials, especially, Mr. Speaker, in these days of high costs of materials and labour.",
"I developed my interest in this matter when I was a member of Toronto city council. The city does assist homeowners on request in commenting on tenders submitted for necessary repairs. I know that some owners, when they are faced with a long list of repairs to be made, are not able to cope with the situation and put the house up for sale, which just puts the problem on to the new owner. If they cannot do the work themselves, what do they do to comply?",
"We all know of home repairmen who take large sums of money from elderly homeowners for repairs which may or may not be done in the proper manner. These so-called businessmen approach persons at the door, telling them they have facilities to repair a roof or a chimney or to do other outside repair work, telling them of the consequences that would ensue if the work is not done. If the owner agrees to have the work done, which is, say, the repairing of a roof or a chimney, how can an elderly person climb a ladder to see if indeed the roof has been done properly?",
"Home repairmen who actually do renovations and buildings and repairs are required, when operating in Metropolitan Toronto, to have licences issued by the Metropolitan Licensing Commission. Those who do painting and non-building types of work do not require a licence. Mr. Speaker, I have a number of people in my area who have been placed in a very difficult financial position by the operations of certain home renovating business people. I have had cases where people have been taken for hundreds of dollars by such home repairmen who are operating without a licence.",
"I continually tell homeowners that before agreeing to such work, they should obtain the Metro licence number of these people and check with the Better Business Bureau before signing any contract or agreeing to have any work done. When the homeowners have paid out money for this work, which later turns out to be unsatisfactory, or they have been charged for work which has not been properly done, the only recourse they have is to sue in a civil court for the return of their money.",
"How could an 80-year-old woman living alone institute a court action to recover money taken from her in this way and even pursue it through legal aid?",
"Another thing done especially to elderly people is to offer to clean out the basement and to throw out all the junk. I have had cases where repairmen have done this sort of work and the basement is probably cleared, and the owner does not realize that this so-called junk does not go to the garbage dump, but indeed goes to second-hand merchants who are often able to obtain quite high prices for the sale of this type of article now being called an antique.",
"What should be done in the circumstances that I have described? Mr. Speaker, I would make four suggestions. First, give the municipalities the power to license throughout Ontario people engaged in home rehabilitation, whether they are doing renovating, repairs or painting.",
"Two, when home repairs are required by municipal authorities, the authority should contact the homeowners and assist in setting out tenders and approving prices on work to be done. It should follow up the progress of the work and approve the quality of the work before the final bills are paid.",
"Three, draw up and approve grants and/or low-interest loans, depending on the circumstances of the homeowner.",
"Four, institute legal action on behalf of the homeowner to recover funds obtained by fraudulent means and provide stiff penalties for home renovators, persons or firms who do not live up to standards set.",
"I bring this up at this particular time when spring will soon be on the way, when this type of operator is knocking on doors, especially in large metropolitan areas. I should add, however, Mr. Speaker, that most firms or persons in this field are honest and hard working.",
"We should remember, as we move here in this province toward the recognition that, while we need and require more new housing, it is important also to maintain and improve our present housing stock. This programme will provide much needed work for the building industry; but let us do all we can to ensure that the homeowner will not be jeopardized as he takes steps to improve his own property.",
"Mr. Speaker, another matter of serious concern to homeowners in my riding and in adjacent ridings, and indeed in other communities throughout the province, is the damage being done to houses and buildings by the insect known as the termite. No one seems to know when this insect was first brought to Ontario, but it did appear about 30 years or so ago in the eastern part of the city of Toronto.",
"This is an insect that has its nest in the ground and exists by living on wood fibres. The nest is on the outside of a building, but by the building of ingenious tunnels they work their way through the foundation of the house, eating away at the foundations and woodwork until, in some houses at least, the building is in danger of collapse. Some of the smaller houses in my riding were built many years ago on cedar posts and have suffered considerable damage from this insect. This insect is able to penetrate through cement blocks, if they are not properly laid and treated and have openings that the insect can get through.",
"Examination of these houses shows the tunnels leading from the nest into the woodwork of the home, and solid number is over a period of time hollowed out as the insect does its work. There is a way, however, to combat this infestation. The insect must return to the nest daily in order to live. By digging a trench around the house and by treating the walls, this prevents the re-entry of the termite.",
"Through my efforts several years ago, Toronto city council recognized this as a serious problem to homeowners and passed a bylaw in co-operation with the provincial government in order to help these homeowners so affected. A grant is now made to a homeowner who applies for assistance. The bill for an average home to do the necessary treatment runs between $500 and $600. This is shared 50 per cent by the homeowner, 25 per cent by the municipality and 25 per cent by the province.",
"I suggested several years ago, and I suggest now to the minister in charge of the Ontario Housing Corp., who is responsible for this programme, that this formula should be changed. In addition to his share of the grant, the homeowner has the cost of repairing the damage already done to his home, which often amounts to a considerable amount of money. My suggestion -- and this would be a real help in the rehabilitation of older houses, especially in certain areas -- is that the homeowner’s share should be reduced to 25 per cent. The municipality should pay 25 per cent and the provincial government should bear 50 per cent of the total cost. This would be a definite and immediate step to help the homeowner improve and maintain his property.",
"Mr. Speaker, I should like also to mention consumer protection. As all members of this Legislature realize, there has been a tremendous upsurge of the consumer movement in recent years. Consumers are increasingly aware of the growing sophistication of the marketplace and the diverse range of products which have come on to the market in the last few years. It is, therefore, most important for the consumer and the businessman of any size of enterprise to realize that a viable, fair and efficient market relationship develop between the buyer and the seller.",
"Ontario has been notably in the forefront of effective consumer protection legislation in North America. The government has pioneered in such diverse fields as the fair regulation of the real estate industry through the Real Estate and Business Brokers Act; amendments to the Insurance Act; and introduction of the Consumer Reporting Act as well as the usefulness of the Consumer Protection Bureau.",
"Legislation in the areas of warranties and guarantees will be introduced during this session.",
"What the public wants to know about this legislation is its purpose, the principles on which it will operate and the scope and authority of the legislation. Certainly, the basic objective of the legislation is to protect the interests of both the consumer and the businessman in the many business transactions which characterize the sophisticated and complicated marketplace.",
"Underlying the warranties and guarantees legislation are these basic principles:",
"1. Encouragement of consumers and producers to resolve as many as possible warranty-related problems on a mutually satisfying basis;",
"2. The efficient use of resources to resolve problems rather than adding costs to industry and the taxpayer;",
"3. The costs of operations should not exceed the benefits;",
"4. Enhancement of responsibility for products between manufacturer and retailer;",
"5. Fairness of treatment between producer and consumer.",
"What the government wants to achieve is a system which removes the constant necessity of government to intervene in the marketplace, and thereby to develop a fair and more realistic consumer marketplace for all Ontario citizens.",
"Mr. Speaker, I have spoken in the past in some detail about the plight of the small businessman, so often ignored in the past by government and other sectors of the economic community."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"Always ignored. Always."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"I’m most gratified to see that the government will be introducing significant legislation with respect to unfair trade and business practices. Ideally, the approach to be taken in these matters is not to establish regulations and standards which tend to hurt the small businessman and to consume his valuable time in report-writing activities, but to promote effective ongoing and co-operative relationships between government and business.",
"What I am advocating is positive regulation of business associations instead of restrictive and narrow measures designed to frustrate the individual businessman. What we need in Ontario is greater managerial and trading assistance programmes for the individual businessman to foster his skills and improve his productivity, positive measures which I know the government will consider.",
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak for a few moments on the matter of correctional services, which I know is a matter of great interest to all members of this House. I want to commend the government for its far-sighted and progressive measures to assist the adult and juvenile offender. These measures include improved integration of group homes, probation and institutional services, thus ensuring better co-operation with all agencies of the community. By placing juveniles in training schools closer to their homes --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Banish them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- we remove some of the pressures and strains placed on the juvenile in an alien environment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Outlaw them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"In this way, greater interaction between the training school and the home will assist the rehabilitation chances of the young offender. Through this process greater community resources can be marshalled in the rehabilitation of the young offender.",
"Hon. members should be aware of the exciting, very personal and meaningful prospects of personal development for adult offenders in the rehabilitation process. The government intends to promote the further development of small community-based adult residences for rehabilitation linked with the temporary absence programme and improved employment prospects for adult offenders in the northern areas of the province.",
"Another innovative feature of the correctional services responsibility is a proposal to involve inmates serving short terms in an effective employment programme with private enterprise.",
"The terms of the proposal in effect mean a simulation of working conditions related to what actually happens in society. Inmates chosen for this programme would receive competitive wages compared to those in the real work force. These types of programmes offer continuing and improved prospects to inmates to return to society able and willing to contribute fully to it.",
"I believe it is worth detailing some of the other developments which are under way in our correctional services system.",
"One of the more interesting and intriguing experiments which went into operation last year was the Camp Bison programme. The essential ingredients were a well-prepared course of action for correctional officers, who are involved in learning about the social pressures and situations that create the type of conformity displayed by most inmates. The experimental programme is designed to break down the subculture and help the inmates to think for themselves and to communicate positively with the correctional officers trained to help them.",
"The temporary absence programme remains the basic vehicle for rehabilitating inmates. Depending upon the type of offence which the inmate committed, his educational level and other important factors, temporary leaves can be devised to meet an inmate’s particular need for educational and personal improvement.",
"Through these innovative and experimental programmes, correctional services have assumed a new social dimension. Keeping inmates confined is more costly to our society in the long run than assisting inmates and helping them to lead useful lives upon their return to society.",
"The government is to be commended for its forward-looking and progressive corrections philosophy.",
"Mr. Speaker, on the matter of daycare centres the government is intimately concerned with the proper social and personal development of the children of Ontario. Today’s youngsters will be tomorrow’s leaders. We must constantly strive to provide the support facilities and programmes to realize that kind of promise.",
"It was only last year that the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) presented legislation for our consideration that would extend grants and subsidies to individual corporations or classes of corporations, and widen the base of financial support to working mothers whose children require safe and proper care during her work day to prevent her from worrying about their situation. We are told that regulations will be announced in a few days and a programme will be under way. Mr. Speaker, I am merely stating positive programmes of this government that I am sure even the Liberals and the NDP can fully support."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"There is not a single member of the government here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Nobody believes it but the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"This government believes in positive programmes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Now if the member had said “banned, outlawed.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I listened all yesterday --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"And he learned a lot, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- to the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the NDP (Mr. Lewis), and I didn’t hear any positive programme of what their parties stand for. I’m still at a loss to know what they stand for."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"How can he say that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"At least the government does have a positive programme that the members of this government support."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"What is it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"We have a solution to the housing problems but evidently the government is not very interested in the member’s alternatives. There is nobody here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"In the Throne Speech the government is proposing a series of measures to supply high-priority resources for those groups whose needs are still to be met; including the establishment of new programmes of assistance for community co-operative daycare centres for low-income areas, for handicapped children and native children. It speaks of our deep and abiding interest in reaching out to assist those seriously disadvantaged and to permit them to share in the resources of our productive economy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"One hundred and fifty-one dollars a month."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, often critics accuse us of an absence of social commitment and social action for the disadvantaged sector of Ontario society. These same critics proclaim that the government does not possess a socially coherent philosophy for the individual. Naturally these claims are unfounded. The Throne Speech offers a significant packet of economic and social measures designed to meet the needs of the disadvantaged. This Progressive Conservative government seeks to resolve problems and citizens’ concerns positively and responsibly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the member see what is in the bloody book before he gets up and gives off such prattle?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I listened yesterday afternoon to the leader of the NDP, and I have never heard such a negative approach to the problems of this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It was not negative at all. The member wasn’t listening."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Most of his speech had to do with food prices. And surely the farmers of Ontario are not taken in by the policy of the NDP."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Guaranteed income in BC for them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"The farmers of this province have a very, very low price for their products. This is the policy of the NDP --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The chain stores have a very low price for farm produce."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- to keep the wages of farmers down. I don’t think, Mr. Speaker, that many farmers in Ontario are making very much money today. I don’t think the public of Ontario worry too much if the price of food rises a little, if they know the farmer himself is getting a better income than he has had in the past; and the only way we are going to keep farmers on the land, in my opinion, is to make certain that they get a decent return for their work.",
"Speaking further about the remarks of the leader of the NDP on food prices and inflation, and what inflation is doing, his party in Ottawa has the power to bring down the present government in Ottawa which is responsible for many aspects of inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Except on the Food Prices Review Board, the hon. member’s colleague voted with the Liberals."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"If they were sincere --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"They voted with the Liberals on the Food Prices Review Board. The hon. member should learn that before he gets up and beats his gums off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"If they were sincere in their wish to help Canadians, it would not include co-operating with the Liberal federal government in maintaining the present Liberal policies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The Conservatives voted against the Food Prices Review Board with the power to roll back prices."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Other members will have an opportunity to enter the debate later."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Well, tell him to tell the truth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I prepared my remarks not wishing to say anything against the opposition, whether it be the Liberals or the NDP. But I’m moved at this time to say a few things. It seems to me that as far as the NDP in Ottawa are concerned, they can bring down this Liberal government any time they wish to do so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"They had three chances in the Tory party and they muffed them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"And if they are worried about inflation, as was the leader of the NDP yesterday, they should bring down the present government and put in a government led by Mr. Stanfield, who would do something about inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That would be a disaster!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"How is the hon. member doing with his federal riding these days?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"The federal Tory party is the only albatross I know with an ancient mariner around his neck."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. The member for Beaches-Woodbine has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before I conclude my remarks, I would like to say this: I was in this House for a good part of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. I was in this House yesterday and listening, without any interruption at all, to the leader of the NDP. Surely, when a government member gets up to speak, the members of the NDP could at least offer the same courtesy as government members offer the opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Oh, having provoked interruptions now he is crying about them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"The hon. member should be flattered that we consider him important enough to heckle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am sure that my final remarks will meet with the attention that I think they deserve, and I’m sure that all the members of the House will agree with them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Why are all the Tories leaving?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)",
"text": [
"The hon. member opposite has just come back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He just came in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in my final remarks I should like to express my words of gratitude for the fine way in which the Lieutenant Governor of this province, the Honourable W. Ross Macdonald, has served as the representative in Ontario of our gracious sovereign, Queen Elizabeth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Well said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"He has conducted himself with dignity, great ability and with a dedication to his duties. His term of office has enhanced the honourable office that he holds. I know that the people of Ontario will look forward to welcoming His Honour’s successor, Dr. Pauline A. McGibbon.",
"Whilst speaking of the office of Lieutenant Governor, I would like to express my hope that serious consideration will be given by the government to provide a home in Toronto for our lieutenant governors. This was formerly the practice, and I see no reason why this policy should not be resumed.",
"Nearly every province in this Dominion has a government house. Many of my constituents have expressed their agreement with this proposal. I feel certain that good use would be made of such a facility, especially as Ontario is increasingly serving as host to visiting organizations and dignitaries from other parts of Canada, the British Commonwealth and foreign countries. Such a home would also allow members of our royal family to stay there and to entertain and welcome our citizens in a dignified setting.",
"Every resident of Ontario will be looking forward with great anticipation to the visit this June to Ontario and Quebec of Her Gracious Majesty Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Don’t include me in that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Her Majesty is held in high regard by our citizens, especially by those who remember the fine example she and her husband, our late sovereign, King George VI, set during the perilous days of World War II. When the light of freedom had nearly been extinguished in Europe and our western civilization was in danger, our King and Queen were able to rally our people and those who love freedom everywhere to fight against those who would have buried the great heritage of freedom which has sustained us through the centuries.",
"I know that the people of Ontario and Quebec will offer Her Majesty a warm reception. We know the personal sacrifice that such a position requires and the complete dedication of Her Majesty to her duties. I hope that the school boards will, in advance of the Queen Mother’s visit, bring to the attention of students the importance of the constitutional monarchy in our system of government and will declare at least part of the day a holiday when Her Majesty visits their communities."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"We can’t close the schools."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"I am most impressed, Mr. Speaker, by the large numbers of our young people who want to learn more about our constitutional monarchy and its present and future role in our parliamentary system. This interest has been especially sparked by the overwhelmingly successful visit last June of our sovereign Queen Elizabeth. Her Majesty was greeted with great enthusiasm by Canadians of all ethnic backgrounds.",
"We must not forget that constitutional monarchy is respected not only by those of British and French descent but by people who have come here from all parts of the world. Many of the critics of the monarchy tend to forget that the system of monarchy is also a respected institution in many countries from which Canada’s immigration has come.",
"When our newest citizens swear allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, they come to realize that the monarchy is the oldest of Canada’s political institutions having come down to Canadians through 1,146 years of political development. These new Canadians also realize and appreciate the fact that our constitutional monarchy provides Canadians with the greatest constitutional safeguard against communism or any other form of totalitarian government or dictatorship.",
"The most essential and distinctive institutions of the Canadian government and the ultimate defences of the constitution are based on the position and powers of the Crown. These include the whole of the executive power of the government of the day, the cabinet system, the principle of responsibility, and the ultimate assurance that the genuine popular will shall prevail. To a democratic people, the monarchical form of government testifies to the ability of that people to develop a responsive political system from an authoritarian feudal structure without passing through the violence of revolution. The constitutional monarchy has a proud record in the development of the Canadian nation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Hasn’t the member ever heard of Cromwell?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"How fortunate we are to have as our sovereign a most gracious lady who, by her example, has endorsed high standards --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"So Cromwell was a Commie?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- and has encouraged the worthwhile traditions --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"The member shouldn’t show his ignorance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"He doesn’t even know who Cromwell was."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"-- so many of which vitally reflect the better aspects of civilized behaviour and living.",
"Her Majesty has carried out her royal duties with dignity and zeal and has truly carried out her promise to her people in 1953 that, to their service, she would give her heart and soul every day of her life."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt)",
"text": [
"How true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, how proud we are to be Canadians and to live in Ontario, this great province of opportunity."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I rise to participate in this annual ritual of reply to the Throne Speech which ushers in the rites of spring. As I rise to speak, I don’t know whether to cry or to laugh because in my entire public career over the past 25 or 30 years I think I have spoken in cities all over Canada, some in the United States, some in other parts of the world, but never before have I risen to speak under circumstances such as these, when the complete vista in front of me is totally blank."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Even though there are people sitting over there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Even when there are people sitting there, it’s usually blank. The House leader just sat down, called over the hon. member for Riverdale (Mr. Renwick) -- and now another member has just walked in -- so I won’t have to look at a totally blank wall.",
"I don’t think I’m ever going to get used to this sort of a situation, Mr. Speaker. I have no speech to read. That’s probably where I made the mistake. I should have a speech writer write me a speech which I can read off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"The Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) might have one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Probably they have a better system in the United States where they just hand in their speeches and get them printed in the Congressional Record.",
"The members have just received a raise. I would have thought that when members in the House get up to speak during a Throne Speech debate that there would be more people sitting here to listen to them -- because making a speech is a product of the heart and the soul and the mind. You use your mouth to articulate it, but you would like to feel that you are communicating with people.",
"I don’t care whether people agree with me or whether they disagree with me, or if they want to boo or if they want to jeer at me or if they want to scorn me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"We want to hear the hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"But at least a member of this Legislature should have an opportunity to speak to human beings -- and not just to be read in Hansard. Not that I am that immodest that I feel that I have anything to say that is of such great importance, or that the manner in which I will say it will be so entertaining that it should enrapture those who sit here -- but good heavens, Mr. Speaker, what is the purpose of making a speech? God has given us mouths and tongues with which to articulate for the purpose of communicating with one another. How do we communicate when we sit in a chamber like this where there is hardly a quorum?",
"I think maybe a quorum has just appeared right now of 20 members. But as Sam Rayburn said, “In order to get along you must go along,” and my leader and the House leader have said that I have to participate in this annual ritual of replying to the Speech from the Throne. So here I am. I shall do that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"The member shouldn’t trouble himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"I shall use my ability to reply to the Speech from the Throne.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member says I shouldn’t trouble myself. I hope that I am not being interpreted in that light; but really, what is the purpose of talking if you are not communicating with somebody? Let me tell the hon. member that in council we had people who sat there and they listened -- and you turned them on or you turned them off and you could persuade them about something. Now we know very well that nobody is going to persuade anybody around here of anything. The Juggernaut will roll on and we just participate. It’s sort of a hypocritical ritual really when it comes down to it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Storm the barricades!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Anyway, having said that, I want to deal with some of the issues -- well, there’s no point in storming the barricades."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"We are listening to the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Well, it’s really frustrating anyway. I thank those members who are here.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"I know that there is nothing the members are going to learn from me, but at least it’s comforting to know that some of them are friendly enough to sit here even though some of them are busy reading the newspapers, or their mail --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It’s a challenge to the member for York-Forest Hill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"-- or indulging in other things, such as consulting with one another. However --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)",
"text": [
"Could I leave for a couple of minutes?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"My leader --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Sit down!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"My leader and the hon. leader of the NDP made much of the fact, and rightly so, that there is nothing in this Throne Speech that says anything in particular about the subject of inflation, which is supposed to be so important to everybody living in this province and, indeed, in this whole country.",
"I sometimes think that the reason why governments -- both federal and provincial -- are not doing anything about inflation is because they don’t want to do anything about inflation. I feel that there is almost sort of an unconscious or a subconscious deliberate conspiracy not to deal with inflation. And I’ll tell the members why. Because I think a large sector of our population benefits from inflation.",
"I think there are professional people, there are business people, there are strongly organized union members in the big unions, in the strong unions -- not the underprivileged people who aren’t organized -- who benefit from a little bit of inflation, because it is like a little bit of intoxication. It’s euphoric. It’s buoyant.",
"I know many people in business who are benefiting by virtue of the fact that they have acquired debt. They have bought machinery or equipment and they are paying it off in half-dollar bills, so to speak, because their debt has shrunk in relation to the inflation that has taken place at the rate of from 8 to 10 per cent a year -- and probably in 1974 it will be greater.",
"It isn’t only a matter of the big corporations or the big companies. A lot of small people benefit from inflation, and they are happy to have this situation continue. And the governments are copping out and they are opting out.",
"The provincial governments blame the federal government. The federal government blames the UN, international affairs -- all kinds of things. Everything is being attributed to the oil shortage today, from the price of gasoline for cars to sexual impotency."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Who is dealing with that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"They are copping out. The people they are not dealing with are the little people, the kind of people the hon. member thinks he represents, who are involved in a bit of a ripoff here and there. A member of the NDP got up yesterday and read into the record a long list of properties in areas which I used to consider my turf when I was a kid -- Markham St., Clinton St., Niagara St. and all those streets where working people live. As for these values that members have heard of, of people who had these houses on these various streets, these are people from factories. These are people that I worked with in the steel mills and in the packing houses of this city and these are the people who benefited."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Markham St.?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Yes, sir."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Honest Ed has a place there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"One of the reasons why these properties are going up in value is that many of these properties are income producing. Many of these people have boarders. They are not supposed to have them in many cases but they have boarders or they rent out accommodation. They get a certain amount of income, which they don’t declare on their income taxes, and this helps them ward off inflation.",
"It would be interesting if the member sent his research workers on the job of looking up the assessment roles of these respective properties. I will wager that he will find that the assessed values of these houses haven’t changed in 20 or 25 years. They are probably paying realty taxes on values that were established by the assessment people about 20 or 25 years ago. If one were to reassess them -- and I wish the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen) were here -- it would probably take about 10 years to reassess them, and by the time he got all the reassessments finished, they would probably be out of date as well.",
"It’s interesting that the leader of the NDP pours scorn on these developers and these companies and that he talks about their lacking a moral obligation. Many of the developers, or these companies that he talked about yesterday, were people who were born and grew up on these streets and in these houses that he talked about yesterday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"That still doesn’t excuse it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"They had social obligations. Many of them were socialists or many of them were members of the CCF. As a matter of fact, I know a couple of them who ran as provincial candidates for the NDP and some of them were even further left than that.",
"I remember coming into the gallery here when I was a student at the school across the street and Joe Salsberg was sitting here and A. A. MacLeod, representing the Labour Progressive Party. They were the people who represented these poor struggling developers who have become these ogres that the member accuses today of lacking social obligations. They think that they are fulfilling their social obligations. They sit on hospital boards, on charitable institutions, philanthropic institutions, and cultural organizations. These are the member’s people, and some still picture themselves as NDPers.",
"I don’t justify it, but in all fairness, many of them have fathers who were socialists in the old country and had to escape the countries that they came from in order to live in these places that the member talks about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have no corner on virtue. We never have claimed it. We have the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) after all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"It is the same thing with the price of food."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Don’t say that when he is in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"It is not enough to talk about inflation in housing and food. The same thing applies to recreation and entertainment. You go out to buy a hockey stick for a kid or a pair of skates or a jersey or, if you want to move into the aristocracy of the boaters, you buy a canoe or a rowboat or a sailboat, and it is just preposterous what has been happening."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"One of those little items that sleeps six."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"It is absolutely ridiculous. As far as housing is concerned, the leader of the NDP says, “We will buy the land from the developers at the price that they pay for it and we will pay them that value and we will pay them holding costs.” Well, that’s very generous of them, certainly a great deal more generous than what the Tories are doing.",
"This government went ahead on a parkway belt and just zoned down property and they’ve confiscated the property and given the people nothing for it. So thanks for small blessings, if this is what the leader of the NDP is going to do.",
"Then he’s going to provide cheap mortgage money at six per cent from the provincial savings accounts of the people who have their pension funds in the provincial savings account. They’re going to give out mortgages at six per cent. Are we going to subsidize that six per cent? Why should a person who has money in a provincial savings account only be able to benefit to the extent of six per cent when somebody else is paying 9½ per cent? Surely that wouldn’t be fair?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"They’re only getting 4½ per cent now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"And when he says that this Tory government won’t do it, I think he’d be very surprised. The Tory government probably will do it, because they’re confiscating right now, and I’ll come to that in a moment.",
"The leader of the NDP went along and he talked about how they’re going to tax natural resources. They’re going to put a tax on the mines, and they’re going to put a tax on the oil wells and on uranium and on everything else. And as he was talking about this great tax that he was going to put on, and how three of the provinces that have NDP governments have done this and the mines haven’t moved out and the corporations haven’t moved out and jobs haven’t moved out of the provinces, my eye caught a clipping, an article on the financial page of the Star yesterday, and I want to read it to the members. It’s all right for him to speak so confidently and so stridently about the great success that British Columbia has achieved --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Never stridently, only eloquently."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"-- but here’s an article from the Star, dateline Victoria, that says that:",
"“The mining association of British Columbia has told Mines Minister Leo Nimsick that the proposed Mineral Royalties Act must be revised or the government will destroy mining in BC.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Did they say they were going to move out?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Does the member for York-Forest Hill have an interest there?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"How do they move a mine?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"To continue:",
"“The association represents 80 companies. W. J. Tough, association president, said that the proposed royalties would make the BC mining industry unable to compete with mining in other parts of the world.",
"“Earlier, the BC and Yukon Chamber of Mines said that if the Act were imposed, there would be a loss of $587 million in revenue for various sectors of the economy. At the same time, the chamber said, the provincial government would gain revenues of $179 million.”",
"Now, my purpose in reading this clipping is not because I agree with him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Sounds like Powis of the Ontario Mining Association."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"I have no way of knowing whether I can agree with him or not, because we don’t know what the facts really are on the basis of what the leader of the NDP has said and what this clipping says. But I’m trying to indicate that there is a cacophonic disagreement on the part of the people who talk about these things because they don’t use the same language."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Well, where does the member stand? Does he think we should be getting more money for our resources?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Just listen and you’ll find out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Yes, I think we should be getting more revenue. The fact is, the member knows, as a speculator and an investor, himself, that these --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"I sold mine. The member still has his.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"-- profits the NDP talks about are not reflected in the stock prices on the stock markets."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Nobody said they were."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The thing gets very complicated. There are all kinds of reasons why the stock market reacts the way it does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)",
"text": [
"Tell us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"But one must agree that the stock market in every country in the world is a very sensitive barometer of the economic, the psychological and emotional health of that particularly country -- economically, because it is a reflection and a barometer of what is going on. So it isn’t enough simply to get up and say that these profits have been enormous and they forget about depletion allowances, they forget about depreciation and they forget about a number of other things. So they can’t be that accurate when on the one hand they say how wonderful things are, and on the other hand the president of the association says that mining will be destroyed in British Columbia."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"They don’t want to pay a cent in taxes. That’s the reason!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The member will agree that there’s a difference of opinion, would he not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Since the member asked him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"And continuing on the subject of inflation, as far as the people who have fixed incomes, as far as our government here is concerned, when Christmas comes around there’ll be another $50 Christmas present, but since we’re heading into an election year there’ll be --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"We might have an Easter present, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Well, they can increase it by 100 per cent and make it another $50, and then they’re going to have an income support programme, maybe, and then there’s going to be a proposal made for a prescription drug plan for our senior citizens. This is the way we expect to help the people who are living on a fixed income.",
"As far as the parkway belt is concerned I’m surprised that in the Throne Speech there was nothing further said about that because the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. White) has been promising for a long time, together with the former deputy minister of that department, that there would be open planning. There were supposed to be hearings. The legislation is just about a year old. It was passed last June. There hasn’t been a public hearing that I know of with respect to either the parkway belt or the Niagara Escarpment. Land has been frozen.",
"I feel very strongly about this. I’m opposed to the whole concept. I believe that if a government wants something for public purposes, whether it is a municipal government or a provincial government, it should have to prove that it requires it and it has to go in and buy it and not confiscate it and not steal it. I think this is wrong. I think it is wrong to zone land for agriculture when we know very well that it isn’t agricultural. Any lands in these areas that are being farmed are being farmed as holding operations. They’re not being farmed on an economic basis. They’re being farmed because people are getting concessions with respect to municipal taxes and so forth.",
"I have here an evaluation. What is happening is that in the parkway belt, for instance, land has gone down by about 90 per cent. I have here an evaluation by the firm of Constam, Heine Associates Ltd., which is a real estate appraiser. I think the firm has done a lot of work for the government on previous occasions. It has evaluated a piece of land -- I’m just using this as an example -- of 100 acres and shown that the value has gone down. On June 3, 1973, it was worth $600,000 for the 100 acres and on Dec. 31, 1973, it was worth 100,000 acres."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"One hundred thousand dollars."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"What did I say?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Acres."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"I’m sorry; $100,000 an acre. This is happening all over the place."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"One hundred thousand dollars for the 100 acres?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"One hundred thousand dollars for the 100 acres which means it’s been downgraded from $6,000 an acre to $1,000 an acre. This is only one example. There are other examples of values which have dropped and one would think this would be a good thing -- that the price of land for housing and other purposes was going down -- but it isn’t because outside the parkway belt the values have tripled and quadrupled. What has the government gained? What has it accomplished? None of this land will be used for housing. I think it’s confiscatory.",
"People have died and the estates pay succession duties on the basis of the land not being for agricultural purposes. People have given some of the property to their children and the Department of National Revenue has revalued the properties on the basis of not being agricultural land. I don’t know how one government can base an evaluation for succession duties or for gift tax on it being non-agricultural when the provincial government comes along and says, “Your land shall be agricultural for ever and a day.” There isn’t even a house or a farmyard or a barnyard or anything on the property which would enable anyone to use the land for farming purposes.",
"This open planning hasn’t taken place yet and I wish the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs was around to indicate when these public hearings and this participation is going to take place since he talked about it in the legislation. How long is he going to wait?",
"In some cases it’s a matter of life and death when the government is going to determine what the future of these properties is going to be. It is unconscionable. It is politically amoral and this is what the government is doing. I wouldn’t expect this to come from a government which is supposed to be a free enterprise party and believes in free enterprise and believes in people’s rights because I believe we’re living in a democracy.",
"What constitutes freedom? The government takes away a man’s property. It takes away what he’s worked for and I’m not talking about the speculators. If the government worries about the speculator, tax him with a windfall tax. Put it up to 75 per cent; in this case I agree with the leader of the NDP. But there are people to whom these lands represent a lifetime of savings; indeed the property goes back two or three generations and the government gives them a once-in-a-lifetime gift of $50,000 and what will that be evaluated on? Agricultural land or land which was worth a certain amount of money because development had come up right to one side of the street and they happened to be on the other side of the street?",
"Mr. Speaker, I think this is horribly unfair. This business of playing Robin Hood, of stealing from those the government thinks are the rich to satisfy the poor, creates a very terrible precedent and in no other free country in the world is this permitted. In the United States, in Britain, one can’t get away with it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Even Robin Hood went to jail."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Under the law of eminent domain in the United States, if the government wants the property, it takes it; it proves it needs it but pays for it based on what other criteria it wants to set up. There are a lot of definitions of market value. They are in the federal expropriation Act and in the provincial Expropriations Act. There are definitions that realtors can give you, experts in this particular field. Pick any one that you want. But don’t steal property from people. I don’t think it is fair. I don’t think it is conscionable. If the government wants to tax them for the big profits that they make, fine. It should take certain things into consideration: how long they have held it, how long they have worked it and how long it has been in the family name.",
"The government knows it can do it because it is doing so with respect to taxation. It is doing it with respect to its once-in-a-lifetime gift. I say this is very unfair, Mr. Speaker, and I am very surprised that the government is going ahead with it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)",
"text": [
"We will take it under consideration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"They will take it under consideration. Even in British Columbia where they passed similar legislation. Premier Barrett has indicated that value will be paid to people from whom lands are taken or people from whom lands are taken just to sit there sterile. If the government really thinks that they are agricultural, let it go in and expropriate them for agricultural purposes and let people farm them. But don’t leave it there and steal it. Then the government says it can’t afford to pay these people for the land. What kind of an excuse is that?",
"At least when Robin Hood came driving down the pike, one could see him coming. He had his bow and arrow. But when the provincial government moves in one can’t even see it coming. And Robin Hood confined his activities to stealing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"One gets shafted just the same."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"-- whatever one had on his body. This is stealing what people have saved up for 30, 40, maybe 50 years. He confined his activities to Sherwood Forest. This Robin Hood government’s jurisdiction stretches all over the province. The parkway belt and the Niagara Escarpment are only two places. If the government gets away with this now, it can put in a parkway belt anywhere in the province that it wants. I don’t think it will get away with it because I think there will be litigation in the courts that will go on for many, many years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"They are going to be defeated too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"The airport loading zone, isn’t it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"They haven’t even got a Maid Marion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Maid Margaret?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"It is the same thing with the airport. On the question of regional government, we have here a report, “The Municipal Dynamic”. This was prepared for the Ontario Economic Council, which I suppose is ordered by the government. This particular tract was written by a man by the name of Lionel D. Feldman. The report isn’t very complimentary to the government.",
"The report doesn’t say too much of who Mr. Feldman is. At one time he was a member of the staff of the Department of Municipal Affairs in Ontario. He has been a research associate with the bureau of municipal research in Toronto. He has worked on the staff of a number of royal commissions. Recently, as a principal author of research monograph No. 6, entitled, “A Survey of Alternative Urban Policies for Urban Canada: Problems and Prospects,” he combined or collaborated with Harvey Lithwick in this report in 1970. This was the report incidentally that convinced the Prime Minister, with whom I had many arguments, about the constitutionality of the urban question as far as federal government involvement is concerned. The Prime Minister of Canada said there would never be a Ministry of Urban Affairs for Canada and there would never be a Minister or a Ministry of Housing for Canada, because, within section 92 of the British North America Act, this was completely under the jurisdiction of the provinces. It was this Lithwick report, together with the collaboration of Feldman, which brought this about. Mr. Feldman was also active as a special adviser on urban affairs to the government of Manitoba, which should commend him to the party on the left."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"When?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"As part of a study team responsible for the reorganization of Winnipeg in 1972; that was when. So he is okay. All right? This is what he has to say."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I just wanted to be certain."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"He completely scoffs at what the members opposite are doing and what the government is doing. He takes a dim view of what the government has done in the regional government field. I read a report of his, and he is worth quoting. He says:",
"“The goal of the government of the Province of Ontario stated in the 1973 budget was to enhance the autonomy of municipalities and broaden the scope for decision-making at the local level. [But what have they accomplished? He goes on to say:] If this is the aim, then what is occurring creates an autonomy which is virtually meaningless. Few meaningful functions are being left to the local governments to perform unilaterally, and therefore less remains in substantive terms to be decided by local councils. If this prognosis is valid, then the future is dim for effective local government.”",
"And so it is. The government keeps talking about local autonomy all the time. But all it has left for the local governments to do are the menial tasks. They are hewers of wood, drawers of water and collectors of taxes and garbage. The government has left them no powers at all hardly worth a darn."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)",
"text": [
"Even taken the garbage collection away."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"He goes on to make a very valid point, which I think is important to bear in mind. He says on page 40: “Efficiency was never intended to be the sole objective of local government” -- if indeed the government thinks they are achieving efficiency, but I don’t think that they are, because the costs of local government are going up tremendously.",
"He goes on to say that efficiency isn’t enough. He says:",
"“The underlying assumption of equal importance was that ordinary people should associate with the provision of local schools, roads, sewerage, water, social services and so on, to the extent that they not only plan these services, but vote funds to provide services, pass the contracts, supervise construction, so the citizens may feel that they are really dealing with their own services and not merely receiving services and programmes being provided for them by a senior government”",
"And this government is emasculating them and tearing them down; it is making it useless for anybody to run for public office.",
"He goes on to say -- and he was quoted by my leader the other day, but I will quote this again -- “if this continues the future of reorganized municipalities is bleak” -- and I’m looking for the quotation that was quoted the other day to the effect that the tasks they have to perform are so unimportant that hardly any people are going to be willing to run for public office in the local municipalities any more. That is a fact. That is what people are saying. And this government should concern itself with what people are saying in the regional governments because this government is going to suffer from it.",
"As far as the two-tier system is concerned, the government is leaving nothing for the lower tier to do. They have no jurisdiction at all. It’s all determined here, and we can’t take in that kind of centralization. Quite frequently the minister yells across, “What would you do?” Well, I’ll tell him what we would do. I’ll tell him what I would do as Minister of Urban Affairs: I would restore their manhood and their power to do what they want in the local municipalities. And I wouldn’t fund all kinds of programmes which this government funds for their benefit, but which aren’t for their benefit. The only reason they participate -- and this government only tells them about these programmes after the event; it doesn’t consult with them in advance -- the only reason they participate is because this government is handing out the dough, so they figure they might as well get a piece of the action whether indeed they need that programme or not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"Right on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"And another thing that we would do: You know, Mr. Speaker, this government makes a big deal about mergers and greater efficiency; it is taking all these municipalities, welding them into one and calling them names that they don’t want to be called, wiping out names that have become traditional over many years.",
"What the government is also doing in many cases is decreasing representation. The government talks about participatory democracy, about consultation, and about local autonomy having a part in the daily lives of local people, yet it is ripping away all kinds of representation from them. There are areas in this province today that used to be represented by councils of six, eight, nine or 12, even existing in Metropolitan Toronto, and these people are no longer represented by a council and have nobody to turn to with respect to their local affairs. This isn’t right.",
"So while this government is striving for this efficiency and while we are having these mergers and consolidations, it is cutting down on the number of representatives. It is taking away the democratic rights of these people all over Ontario and giving them no representation at all. This is wrong.",
"It is wrong to take away a council of about a dozen from a municipality and replace it by one solitary alderman who in many cases is not even elected by them, as in the city of Toronto, where the members of Metropolitan Toronto council are not elected by the people of Toronto. Then, over and above it all, the government imposes a chairman, which is such an undemocratic principle that I can’t understand why the government keeps on using it over and over and time and time again.",
"While democracy works for the members of this government -- the Premier (Mr. Davis) has to get elected, the cabinet ministers have to get elected by some convoluted logic, which I’ve never been able to understand, they feel that the man who is chairman of Metropolitan Toronto should be chosen by a small group of people on that council and not by the people he represents, although he has all this influence and has a budget that is larger than the budgets of eight of the provinces of this country. The government is doing this in other areas, and it’s a wrong principle.",
"The people who have this power and this control should have to be elected. That’s what we would do: we would make them be elected. We wouldn’t impose decisions on the people with respect to things that they don’t want and don’t need.",
"On the question of transportation --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"On which the hon. member is an expert."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"-- this Throne Speech is remarkably devoid of any half-decent recommendations with respect to transportation.",
"Incidentally, it was such an interesting speech that even though the Lieutenant Governor left out three pages, because they weren’t included in the speech, it didn’t seem to make any difference; nobody even noticed it. That’s how good a Throne Speech it was. So when I heard the Throne Speech being read I said, “isn’t that marvellous for northern Ontario?” For some reason I have a sympathetic feeling for the people up north because I think they have been getting --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Sympathetic -- right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Sympatico -- sympathetic feeling for the people up north; because I feel that the people up north have been getting a raw deal for a long time. So when I heard the speech I said: “A whole new era is dawning for northern Ontario.” But it wasn’t until I read the speech a second or a third time that I realized what it really said.",
"It didn’t say that a road was going to be built. It said a feasibility and engineering study will be undertaken for a road from James Bay to Moosonee. So it ain’t no road yet; don’t hold your breath.",
"Then it went on to say that priority consideration will be given to the supply of electric power to northern communities; a power line to Moosonee will be the first project in this undertaking. So don’t throw away your coal oil lamps or your flashlights yet.",
"Then it went on to say that the northern communities will have the opportunity to establish local community councils and went on to say they will have water and roads and other such services -- and implementation of this plan will follow full consultation with residents of communities who wish to participate. I suppose the full consultation will be the same kind of full consultation that the Premier of this government had with Metropolitan Toronto just before he abandoned the Spadina Expressway after blowing $100 million. That is the kind of consultation they are going to get.",
"Then the speech goes on to say high priority has been given to rebuilding or widening Highway 17 between Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury -- that is high priority. And also it says that the Ontario government is negotiating an agreement to participate through an appropriate agency about the Polar Gas project. The government is not going to have an agreement. It hasn’t got an agreement; there is no sign of an agreement -- but it is going to be negotiating an agreement.",
"Then last but not least, it says studies will be made regarding the establishment of a port facility in the James Bay area. Now, when I first heard this I figured: “Boy, they are going to get a port; how wonderful. I will be able to sail my boat up there.” But the government is going to have studies regarding the establishment of a port in the James Bay area. Well, so much for the north. I begrudge the north nothing. If the money that was saved on the Spadina Expressway can be used to put in Highway 17, or the Moosonee road, more power to them. But I don’t think they are going to get it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"No, there will be more studies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Only more studies. So, so much for the north."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Nothing is too good for the north -- and nothing is what they are going to get."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Now, we have been told over and over again --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Does the member think the north should subsidize the TTC down here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"No. And it won’t, because the TTC isn’t doing a hell of a lot -- or the province isn’t permitting it to. Dr. Richard Soberman has just brought in a report in which he indicates that the Scarborough Expressway in his opinion -- I am paraphrasing; I haven’t had an opportunity to read the report, so I judge from what I read in the newspapers -- but Dr. Soberman is recommending that the Scarborough Expressway be abandoned. And I tell the members that I am not surprised. If there was reason for abandoning the Spadina Expressway -- which was much less painful to the people in the area from a disruptive and inconvenient standpoint than it would be for the people if the Scarborough Expressway should be built -- if there was reason for abandoning the Spadina Expressway then, a fortiori, the Scarborough Expressway -- a fortiori means I am leading with greater strength for greater reason -- the Scarborough Expressway should be abandoned.",
"When asked whether the Scarborough Expressway should be replaced by this Krauss-Maffei scheme -- the government is putting all its eggs in one basket on that one -- Dr. Soberman said no, that he wants something that will work now and not in the future. When he talks about Krauss-Maffei -- which I will come to in just a second -- he says it is a research project, really, and not something that is viable to go into because it hasn’t been in operation anywhere. He talks about the project as a matter for the future and probably it won’t be operational for about 20 years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"That is a basket of eggs that is beginning to turn rotten."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"And then he indicates that it should be LRT. LRT is like rapid transit. Some people call it light rail transportation, which is a streetcar system which is being developed in the United States and which is being used in Europe and in many American cities. They are planning it right now and they are putting it in operation. It is a tried and tested system.",
"I would have thought that under the circumstances, since this is having so much success in other jurisdictions, that at least there would be something in the Throne Speech that would indicate that the provincial government is interested enough in studying this particular issue. But it is not. There is not a word in it about light rapid transit.",
"Dr. Soberman has indicated that the very right of way which was designated for the Krauss-Maffei thing some time off in the future should be used for an LRT system, which means that as far as he is concerned, as an expert -- and he must be an expert or else he wouldn’t have been brought in to make this study and make this report -- as far as he is concerned, he is completely ridding himself of any idea that that’s where the Krauss-Maffei system should work and he doesn’t think it’s going to work. And he suggested that right of way now be used for this light rapid transit system.",
"The Krauss-Maffei thing is being called into question all along the line. People are asking questions; they can’t get answers. It’s a research project, it’s not a proven system. It is nowhere in existence, not even in the country where it’s manufactured.",
"Magnetic levitation is being used for many kinds of engines but not for transportation anywhere in the world. The stations are going to be huge. They are going to be up in the air. There are going to be staggering questions as to how it is going to be interlined with the subway system and with the bus system.",
"They talk about 20-passenger cars. It has been figured out from an engineering standpoint that these 20-passenger cars aren’t going to be able to handle the loads with enough of a time headway between them to let it operate as a safe system, so there are the same serious loading limitations and there are going to be no attendants on the cars. It’s going to have high capital and operating costs. It’s a new and completely unproved technology at the present time, and I would have thought that the Throne Speech would have taken into consideration this new manifestation -- this LRT system.",
"There is a citizens transit committee which has been dealing with this at various public hearings and the government has chosen to disregard this completely. I think that is absolutely wrong. I think that Krauss-Maffei may be okay. Maybe it will be in operation in about 15 or 20 years, but there is known technology which has to be utilized for the purpose of moving people now, because the Spadina Expressway, for instance, was abandoned three years ago. It will be three years on June 3 of this year.",
"What has taken its place? The Spadina subway is going to be built. I think tenders have just been approved for the building of the sewers in the ravine there and that will take about six months. And they indicate that the subway will be finished by 1977. I think there will be grass growing down Yonge St. before that subway is finished in 1977, because it has taken 10 years to move the Yonge St. subway from Eglinton up to Finch and that hasn’t been opened yet.",
"That thing started when I was still at city hall in Toronto. True, there was tunnelling and there may not be tunnelling in the ravine, but by the time that they deck the system in the ravine and do what is sort of tunnelling in reverse, it will probably take 10 years and you ain’t going to get that subway finished for at least 10 years, Mr. Speaker.",
"So, what have they done? What have they done to replace the transportation system which they abandoned three years ago? A dial-a-bus system is only an intermediate system which takes people from their homes and brings them to bus stops or subway stations. But if you don’t have subway stations or if the subway stations are overloaded, the dial-a-bus system is just a tertiary kind of support system. So what has the government done to replace that transportation system? Absolutely nothing. And there isn’t even a word in the Throne Speech about what the government is going to do.",
"Concerning the teachers situation which the Throne Speech alludes to, it looks like we are going to get compulsory arbitration whether we like it or not. As far as we in this party are concerned, the criterion of what should determine compulsory arbitration is not whether a calling or a service or a kind of work is essential or not. I don’t think that really is a relevant point. As far as I am concerned, I think that the criterion for compulsory arbitration should be the kind of work or service which has to do with public safety, which has to do with health, which has to do with the matter of life and death, vital services.",
"It is not a question of essentiality. Garbage collection is essential. Transportation is essential. There are some of these things that are essential for which I wouldn’t consider compulsory arbitration to be the necessary option, the necessary outcome, the necessary remedy.",
"But what bothers me is this, and I will tell you quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, here we have a class of people, the high school teachers in this particular area -- and this is a cause célèbre, it isn’t only the teachers in the York county system, but it’s the teachers everywhere; the whole world is watching as to what’s going to happen here -- what bothers me is this, that here we have several hundred teachers who obviously have the support of most other teachers throughout the country for that matter who are highly intelligent, highly educated.",
"This isn’t riff-raff. These aren’t people being led by Communist radicals where you think that they are trying to score political points. These are people who have been exposed to our kids. They realize the importance of their jobs. Some of them have very high degrees. If this government hasn’t been able to empathize with these people, if this government hasn’t been able to establish a rapport with this class of people in our society, then something is very, very seriously wrong.",
"The only way that we can settle this problem is by the shotgun of compulsory arbitration, because that is what it is. This class of people are not miners and they are not uneducated people who haven’t had an opportunity to have an education; these are our most highly qualified people in the community, people who have always been looked up to as the people to whom we would entrust the minds and the souls of our children. These are the people that the government is gunning under with compulsory arbitration and I say that it is very, very, very sad. Something is wrong when we have to invoke this solution, which we will probably do within the next day or two. This party is against it. We cannot support compulsory arbitration, because we think that there’s another remedy and we will come to that at the proper time when the debate takes place.",
"Lastly, I want to deal with the question of solid waste management. The Throne Speech says:",
"“A permanent advisory committee on solid waste management will be established in order to achieve closer consultation with municipal governments, environmental groups and industry, whose co-operation is essential to the solution of problems created by increasing waste of energy and material resources and the difficulties of waste disposal.”",
"This means another study. I don’t know what we need another study for in this field, really. You know, there’s a lot of very muddled thinking going on on this subject. Toronto has a garbage problem. It goes into another area and wants to dump it. “Don’t dump your garbage here. No way. Don’t dump it here.” Well, what shall we do with it? “Burn it, incinerate it.” If we want to build an incinerator in town, the people in the area don’t want it where we want to locate it. “Don’t build a sewage disposal plant.”",
"These people have no objection -- and this is universal, it involves everybody -- they have no objection to making garbage. They have no objection to flushing a toilet and creating waste. It’s a very unpleasant subject but we have got to face up to it and talk about it. They are all waste makers and all litterers and they are all garbage makers, but nobody comes up with a solution as to how we are going to dispose of this stuff.",
"So we are the victims of progress, because years ago when garbage was collected on the streets of Toronto, we had a packer truck that came down the street and we took the cartons out and flattened them out and shored up the sides of the truck. Then when they took the stuff to the dump, they could separate the paper from the garbage and so on. The flush toilet was supposed to be great progress. It is one of the worst things that has ever happened to civilized society to date and that’s a fact. This is the problem today, and of course the cigarette smoker is the greatest polluter of all.",
"I am the vice-president of a company called Atlantic Packaging Co. We recycle paper, kraft paper. In our mill in Scarborough, at 111 Progress, we manufacture 220 tons of paper a day for corrugated cases and boxes. We manufacture other things as well but this is our prime concern. The only way we can manufacture this product is by collecting waste corrugated for the purpose of making the kind of paper that is required for corrugated products. That’s 220 tons a day. That’s a lot of paper.",
"We have tapped just about every source of paper practically, in this country within transportation distance of our plant. We get the stuff from as far as 1,500 miles away from here to the south. So we’ve tapped the chain stores, the department stores and all people who generate this kind of waste paper.",
"I have gone to the municipalities in this area. I won’t designate them; I won’t name them. Nobody wants to move. Nobody wants to do anything about segregating the paper from the garbage. Paper represents and constitutes 40 per cent of garbage collection today. We have gone to these people, the commissioners of street cleaning, and we’ve said to them, “Segregate this.”",
"The prices vary from $20 to $35 a ton and we’ve been prepared to pay that for paper delivered at our plant, which is a fair market price. This is not speculating in waste paper because we require this amount of paper on a day-to-day basis, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Members should hear the excuses they’ve given us: The garbage gets dumped in the packer truck and that hydraulic press comes in and just congeals it all; the members of the union wouldn’t be prepared to go out on the dump and separate and segregate this stuff.",
"They’d rather burn it and all the stuff is wasted. Nobody lets us dump it and nobody lets us burn it.",
"We said to them, “All right, pass bylaws which will require your people to segregate this stuff at the source, so they come up with their newspapers in one bundle and their corrugated in another bundle and so on.” We’ve got to come to that because nobody’s letting us dump it and nobody’s letting us burn it. And they have 51 excuses as to why that can’t be done, such as, “We can’t subject people to onerous bylaws.” There are some municipalities which have these bylaws now but refuse to enforce them because they feel that they will antagonize the people who vote for the politicians.",
"What is the use of indicating another study on this subject when there are plants today which are doing this kind of work, like our plant, with respect to paper? There are others with respect to metals and glass and so on. They are just looking for this stuff and nobody wants to take the time or trouble to make it available to them.",
"We can take all this paper off anybody’s hands. We’re in production now; we’ve been in production for several years. What would be wrong with indicating to these municipalities that the people have to segregate this stuff, this garbage, right at the source so that we can make use of it? And for this people will pay. We’re only one company of many.",
"We hailed with great hullabaloo the other day when a minister on behalf of Anglo announced a sawmill and a pulp and paper plant being erected somewhere where they’re going to cut down trees and make pulp and paper. Do members know that for every ton of paper we use on a recycling basis, we avoid cutting down 17 trees somewhere in a forest in northern Ontario, where aforestation and reforestation have to take place? This is a great conservation measure.",
"What does the government have to study in order to decide that this is a good thing and to implement it and enforce it? We’re in operation now and, as I say, we’re only one plant of many which recycle materials and are recycling them today. This isn’t a plan for the future or a programme for 20 years from now. This is in existence now.",
"The provincial government seems to refuse to come to grips with this. It would rather deal with hostile people who don’t want garbage dumped in their localities; with hostile people who refuse to have incinerators and sewage disposal plants erected in their various municipalities. This is an anti-growth psychosis; I’m all right, Jack, but don’t come in here. We don’t want any changes and don’t pollute and don’t do this and don’t do that. Yet these are the very people who are doing the polluting and don’t come up with any solution as to how these things should be handled.",
"So here’s another study. I say that this Throne Speech could have gone a lot further in indicating to the people of Ontario what should be done and what has to be done with respect to recycling and with respect to handling the problem of waste management.",
"About the only thing in the Throne Speech I do agree with and which, apparently, some members of the Conservative government don’t agree with, is the enforcement of the use of seatbelts. I think enforcement of the use of seatbelts is a good idea. I don’t think the problem of enforcement will be that great. There will be a lot of people who won’t obey the law, but since when is this a reason for not passing a law? People who commit murder, of course, don’t obey the criminal law. There are a lot of people who don’t obey the laws in the Criminal Code, but yet we have the Criminal Code because society has to be protected.",
"The real sanction which will enforce the law of having to clip on your seatbelt, Mr. Speaker, is the civil action sanction. If you find that you’re, heaven forbid, in an accident, and you haven’t had your seat belt on, and you’re going to be involved in contributory negligence because you didn’t have your seatbelt on, and that your award will go down by 50 per cent or 80 per cent or, in turn, that the award to the plaintiff who sues you is going to go up tremendously because you didn’t have your seatbelt on, I think you’ll find a lot of people are going to abide by the law.",
"Because once you put it in as a law, Mr. Speaker, the custom in our community and our society is that people will obey the law. If they don’t obey the law they run the risk of this very serious civil sanction and a civil case if they get into an accident, and that’s rough. If you don’t get into an accident then it doesn’t matter whether or not you buckle on your seatbelt, but at a critical time, when this becomes a factor in a serious matter such as an accident, it will be very, very important as a question of fact in any given trial, or in the settlement of a case, as to whether you had your seatbelt on or not. I think that consequently this will cause people to obey the seatbelt law.",
"That, Mr. Speaker, is about the size of it. I hope we will all be here next year when we will again indulge in this ritual and I’m glad to see how the chamber filled up from the time that I started."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Nickel Belt."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it’s good to see you back, looking well, sitting on the Throne and ruling in your customarily fair way. As I listened to the Throne Speech as read by His Honour I couldn’t help but think that we were listening to a typical mid-term Throne Speech which, in a rather somewhat uniquely vague way, indicates the social and economic direction that the government intends to take in the next year and, perhaps, the next two years.",
"There was nothing in the speech that was terribly unpalatable to any groups in our society. There were no announcements of new regional governments in the province that would upset people in their community. I was just projecting ahead to next year and I thought, “My goodness, can you hear the trumpets blaring as the announcements are made from the Throne in an election year?”",
"But I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that next year the people across this province are going to say: “No, not this time. An election year of a platter full of promises will not make up for the by then 30-plus years of Conservative government neglect in Ontario.” This is particularly true in northern Ontario. I can imagine that the polls in the province will reflect that next year and then we’ll witness the Conservatives pulling the plug on the advertising campaigns and we’ll have another American style propaganda campaign across the province.",
"But I should get back to this speech. I should mention too, Mr. Speaker, that those who know me well know I’ve never been a very strong royalist, but I must say that given the office of Lieutenant Governor, that His Honour, Mr. Macdonald, filled the bill admirably and I could only hope that in the years to come the government in Ottawa, perchance in 15 or 20 years, will appoint a Conservative as Lieutenant Governor for Ontario.",
"I suppose we all think of people that would fill the bill among those people we know. The first member that came to mind to me when I was thinking of a Conservative Lieutenant Governor for the Province of Ontario -- I’m thinking now 15 years ahead -- would be, of course, none other than the member for Timiskaming (Mr. Havrot).",
"Can’t you just picture it now? When the call to serve came he would shut down his hotdog stand on the top of Maple Mountain. He’d fight through the blizzards at the top and the black flies at the bottom. He’d jump on the monorail express to Toronto and he would come down here to serve out his term.",
"I think most of us would support the member for Timiskaming if he was to fulfil that role. I am sure the members of his constituency would anyway."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"He would probably bring the black flies with him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there was nothing in the Throne Speech that would make the people of Ontario excited about what they were going to witness for the next year. There were no really new exciting programmes. As the member for York-Forest Hill (Mr. Givens) indicated, it mentioned all sorts of studies and all sorts of indications of priority ratings; but it certainly didn’t go beyond that, unless, of course, you consider mandatory seatbelts as being exciting. I understand that the Parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Transportation and Communications doesn’t even consider that such an exciting addition to our legislation.",
"Let it never be said Mr. Speaker, that the New Democrats just criticize without offering alternatives, because I certainly intend this afternoon to offer some alternatives to the government as to what should have been in that Throne Speech. For example, there should certainly have been in that Throne Speech a commitment to establish public auto insurance in the Province of Ontario. It is inevitable in this jurisdiction, as it is going to be in other jurisdictions, that we will have public automobile insurance. Either the Conservatives will implement it or we will implement it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"They never will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, you would think that the Conservatives, having a fairly good instinct for survival, would see that and would implement it.",
"Also the entire question of the ownership of our resources is becoming a very debatable subject among a growing number of people, not just in this province, but all across the country. A more comprehensive form of social insurance that would entirely replace the Workmen’s Compensation Board is something that those people who understand social insurance are saying has no equal. Those people who are familiar with the Wodehouse report in New Zealand and have read its contents will tell you that it’s much superior to that of the private sector.",
"The Throne Speech should have offered some alternatives in the supply of land for residential purposes. I suppose that the government is in a spot and that it is clearly locked into commitments to the resource corporations, to the insurance industry and to the land speculators and developers across this province. So nothing is going to be done about the rapidly rising price of raw land or serviced land.",
"We have in this province, Mr. Speaker, a milieu in which the government moves within ever-narrowing parameters because its commitments are being made to fewer and fewer people in this province, and they are not for the benefit of the majority of people in the province. While there are all sorts of reasons for that, one need only examine some of the individual members of the Conservative Party to know that.",
"Those of us who represent northern ridings listened to the Throne Speech, read it over after the speech and then read it over again. Then the next day we were dumbfounded to read in the media all that was being done for northern Ontario -- major concessions for northern Ontario. The member for York-Forest Hill said it as well as it could be said: What are those concessions for northern Ontario? Another study? Is that a major concession? Another priority rating for a project in northern Ontario? That surely is not a major concession. I must say that conspicuous by its absence was any concession to the member for Timiskaming and his pet project, the Maple Mountain project.",
"I really think, Mr. Speaker, that there could be a major split developing in the Conservative Party in this province. I can see the split now between Ontario’s junior achiever, the Ministry of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett), and the north’s underachiever, the member for Timiskaming, over Maple Mountain. There are more and more people coming down and saying that the development of Maple Mountain is not the best kind of development for northern Ontario.",
"I know when I make a statement like that there are people going to say that there is somebody who is against tourism. That’s not true. I wish the tourist industry well. But there are many unanswered questions about Maple Mountain, including the environmental concerns and the claims by the native peoples for Maple Mountain. I feel that if public money is going to be channelled into enterprises in northern Ontario it shouldn’t be channelled into an enterprise such as Maple Mountain. It should go into enterprises which will provide good employment for the area, which will employ local people and employ them at good wages. I don’t believe that Maple Mountain is the kind of project which is going to add to the industrial development of northern Ontario,",
"I wouldn’t do to the tourist industry what I have witnessed this government do to the tourist industry. What I have seen this government do, through its Ministry of Transportation and Communications, to the little town of Gogama about 80 or 100 miles from Sudbury, I wouldn’t do and nobody in this party would do. That government over there, with its so-called interest in tourism, isolated the town by building a road two miles from the town, by-passing it completely, and issued a lease to Imperial Oil -- who else? -- for a service centre at the corner. Now there is no need for anyone travelling on Highway 144 between Sudbury and Timmins to go into the town of Gogama, none whatsoever. That’s some commitment to tourism in northern Ontario and I hope the NOTO rooters will take note of that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Good luck to them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"The announcement in the Throne Speech that Highway 17 was going to be widened and improved between Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie is an interesting statement. I don’t know, maybe the member for Algoma (Mr. Gilbertson) would know more about this, but why did it not say four lanes? Does that not leave the member wondering just what the government is up to when it says there are going to be improvements to and widening of the highway between Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie? We’ve known that for 10 years. It has already started from each end so what kind of an announcement is that to excite people in northern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Taylor (Prince Edward-Lennox)",
"text": [
"Did the member want the specifications in the Throne Speech?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Sure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"As far as concerns the commitment to improve telecommunications in the remote communities in northern Ontario that is not something this government should be bragging about because it is an embarrassment the way it is now. Bringing in some kind of communications into remote communities surely should have been done years and years ago. I can name communities now where there are no telephones; where the hydro supply costs three times the rate that Ontario Hydro charges people in other communities. That’s some commitment the government just made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)",
"text": [
"The member will agree it needs improvement, won’t he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"At the same time, the people in these remote communities pay the same seven per cent sales tax. What do they get in return? Certainly not roads. They pay the same Medicare premiums as the rest of us. They have no medical services whatsoever -- not even a nurse-practitioner, not even an emergency vehicle -- but they pay the same premiums. They pay the same income tax and it takes some gall to stand up, as a government, and brag about improving services in those communities."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"They have to go 100 miles to get them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"I remember, Mr. Speaker, that the present Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) stood up two years ago and indicated that he understood the problems in the unorganized communities in northern Ontario; he was then the Minister of Treasury and Economics, But to this day nothing has been done for the unorganized communities in northern Ontario except for one statement in the Throne Speech that the government was going to recognize community organizations or councils to funnel grants through. There was no mention of the grants or the funding of those actual organizations or community councils to help them get off the ground.",
"There are community councils all across northern Ontario in these unorganized communities. The response by the Minister of Health to demands from small communities to send in some kind of medical service has been anything but enthusiastic. We have besieged the minister with letters to put, for heaven’s sake, a nurse practitioner or an emergency vehicle in these communities because it is not right to have communities isolated perhaps by 100 miles or 200 miles, with no access to any kind of medical service whatsoever. The response has been negligible from the ministry.",
"People who live in these small unorganized communities in the north do so for a variety of social and economic reasons. I think that one could generalize and say they tend to be very self-reliant, very patient people, not overly demanding of the government. In other words these people don’t really expect to see a return on their tax dollars from the Science Centre in Toronto, from the art galleries, from the museum, from the expressways down here, from international trade missions. Those people don’t expect to get a return on their tax dollars to build those things.",
"But on the other hand, they are not stupid either. And as more and more New Democrats get elected in northern Ontario, they are coming to realize that they have a right to demand a return for those things they are not getting -- the basic amenities of life.",
"As taxpayers they can see that their taxes are going to service others. They can see as well that while communities in southern Ontario debate the merits of a billion-dollar transit system, they go without drinking water, they go without any recreational facilities at all, they go without inadequate roads, they have inadequate communication systems, and they know that is not right.",
"Surely, Mr. Speaker, there is no place in this province for a double set of standards like that -- one set for the unorganized communities in the north, and another set of standards for the more populated centres; some of those populated centres are in northern Ontario, as well.",
"There really must be some members of the government who seethe with anger inside when they alternate between Toronto and their ridings and see these two standards; see this double standard in effect. I don’t know how they can accept this, but I suppose if they really wanted to change things they wouldn’t be members of the government; they would be in opposition trying to change them, rather than keeping them as they are.",
"If the government continues with its present level of non-intervention in these unorganized communities, a couple of things are going to result. They are going to continue to have an inadequate level in supply of and standards for housing. We are going to continue to have money from the Social Development policy field being poured into these communities with no measurable results whatsoever because the government is not changing the environment in those communities at all. It is supporting people who are living on social assistance but it is not changing the conditions under which they live; and that’s not changing anything. The government is, perpetuating the cycle of poverty that exists in those communities.",
"I am glad the Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch) is in the Legislature this afternoon, because I believe there is about $39 million or $40 million available to the Province of Ontario under the federal capital projects fund. I believe that money is available only from April 1, 1974 until May 31, 1975. I think it is in the neighbourhood of between about $35 million to $40 million that is available from the federal government to the province to use for provincial projects. I am not talking about municipal projects now; these are provincial projects. That money is available to the Province of Ontario and that is what should be used.",
"Any money put into those communities should be done so in a very calculated way. What is required is something that is very similar to the New Democratic Party’s municipal foundation plan, where one establishes a minimum level of services to all communities and then provides it. That is where that $30 million or so that is available from the federal government could be used."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Put it in Cornwall."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"These are some of the things that should be a requirement for every community if one regards a community as being a viable community in which people can continue to live; these are the things that should be there. There should be some form of community complex that would allow people to have some form of recreation facility. In some cases, maybe a community steam bath --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Water or sewers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"There must be a supply of energy in every community. Now, if you can’t bring in Ontario Hydro, then provide a Delco unit, but for heaven’s sakes not a Delco unit at three times the rate of Ontario Hydro for energy supply. That is what is happening today.",
"There should be some form of emergency transportation. There are communities with absolutely no form of emergency transportation at all. There should be some even if it is a Natural Resources station wagon that can be arranged as an ambulance to take somebody 100 miles to the nearest doctor or the nearest hospital; or an arrangement with the charter air service to fly into a community and take out somebody who is sick. These arrangements have to be made. It is ridiculous that in 1974 these communities are without these services.",
"Clean water. There are communities in northern Ontario surrounded throughout a vast acreage with clear, unpolluted water, yet in those tiny communities the water table is polluted primarily because of the nature of their septic systems. That’s got to be changed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Two hundred and fifty thousand lakes and not a drop to drink!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"They have got to have a good supply of drinking water and that can be done through a community water supply, with either a lagoon system to get rid of the sewage or perhaps a holding tank.",
"There has got to be fire protection and that would include making sure that there is a fire extinguisher in homes and so forth. But there is no fire protection in a lot of these communities and to this day there is not a single penny of provincial money available for fire protection in unorganized communities. I could take members to community after community where they have been writing letters to the fire marshal’s office and saying, “How about some money to help us buy an old fire truck?”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"No way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"And if they do get a fire truck, such as one community I know of, they got a fire truck by running a lot of raffles, they got an old fire truck and they had no place to put it. So they fill it up with water and it freezes. Now what could be more ridiculous in 1974? The government must supply these basics.",
"Another thing is suitable garbage disposal. Members should see some of the dumps outside these towns where the people have dumped their garbage. It’s a disgrace.",
"If they can’t supply a doctor in these communities and that’s understandable in a community of 200 people, 500, 800, then they should at least supply a nurse practitioner. The efforts of the Health Ministry in this regard have been minimal. They just have not treated the matter seriously. I can show the House letters -- I should have brought them in and read them into the record -- from the Minister of Health offering the platitudes and agreeing that there certainly should be something done and that he has authorized the local health unit to try and find somebody, but nothing ever happens. Because they are not serious about it.",
"That list I’ve just given may seem like a long list. One might think of the expense of bringing all those services into those communities, because most of the communities are lacking all of those services."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"There is a greater expense in social terms if they don’t do anything."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Can members imagine people in southern Ontario or in other urban centres settling for anything less than that? They wouldn’t do it.",
"It doesn’t make sense to suggest to these people in these remote communities that they move into the larger urban centres, either in the north or in southern Ontario. Those centres are having trouble, in an employment sense, supporting their existing populations. And besides, very often the jobs that are available in the larger urban centres require a degree of expertise or education, specialization, that those people in the unorganized remote communities simply do not have. So it doesn’t make sense to say move them out of there. That’s not going to solve any problem. We just create another problem in the urban centre.",
"So the alternative is to do something with the community. And for heaven’s sake, the government should make up its mind soon whether or not it is going to regard those communities as viable entities or not and tell the people that instead of misleading them now into thinking that there is a winter works project here and there is an OFY project here. That’s not solving the problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Maybe a youth programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"The Provincial Secretary for Social Development is very hard on the OFY projects. I could show her a provincial winter works project up north, near the town of Foleyet, where in the winter time they cut off all the brush at snow level along the road. Do members know how deep the snow is in the winter time in Foleyet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"How deep is it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Five or six feet. And then in the summer time, of course, they had to have another government project to cut the brush off at ground level. Well, they are doing a lot for the development of that community, aren’t they? They are not breaking any cycles when they do things like that. People still have the same pattern. Cyclical poverty continues and it is not doing anything for the community.",
"But more than that, more than the problem of employment, many of the people in those towns have financial ties there. They have family ties there and they may have some form of employment there. So I’m not talking simply about creating employment for the unemployed in those communities. I am talking about making those communities a different place in which to live. It’s a very hard thing to say, but if we look at the houses in a lot of those unorganized communities, they would be unacceptable in Toronto. If we look at the problems with the lot sizes, we find out that no ministry will give them approval for a septic tank; so in 1974 they are condemned to outdoor privies, and that’s one reason we have polluted water tables.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"There is absolutely no grant from any ministry of government to help them build holding tanks, to help them pay for a truck to empty those holding tanks or to have a sewage lagoon -- nothing whatsoever -- and yet other communities get up to 75 per cent in subsidies for their sewage systems. But not the unorganized communities -- they don’t get a single penny.",
"This is something the government should be embarrassed about. If they are not, it’s only because there are few people up there and nobody pays any attention to them. But the standard of living in those unorganized communities is something about which this government should be ashamed.",
"I would like to document a few towns and tell what the inadequacies are in those towns. I tend not to be very parochial in my speeches in this House, Mr. Speaker -- probably not enough -- but when we talk about unorganized communities, I think that the riding of Nickel Belt is probably a good example of a northern riding with unorganized communities. I will now document six communities; there are many more in Nickel Belt, but I will document six of them.",
"Cartier: It has inadequate recreational facilities, medical services, fire protection, access by road and sewage disposal. I mention access by road, because can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, a town with 700 or 800 people -- it is only 40 miles north of Sudbury, but it is unorganized -- cut off from a highway, in this case, Highway 144, from any kind of entrance or exit, by a shunting yard of the CPR? If people want to get out and go to work, sometimes they have to wait 40 or 45 minutes while the trains shunt back and forth. There are no lights or traffic signals there, and there is no requirement by the railway that they have to move out of the way within, say, 10 or 15 minutes, because it’s classified as a shunting yard.",
"Here are people, 40 miles north of Sudbury, who live in fear that at some point there is going to be a serious illness or an accident on one side of the tracks -- but try to move a freight train. There are two or three of them going back and forth at the same time, if one wants to get out in a hurry.",
"Gogama, a little farther north, which I mentioned earlier as having been cut off by the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, has inadequate recreational facilities, inadequate medical services, inadequate fire protection, inadequate sewage disposal, inadequate drinking water and inadequate garbage disposal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Except for the Tories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"That’s the town, Mr. Speaker, where 10 years ago there was a chemical spill that polluted part of the water table. Mind you, the Ministry of Natural Resources and the OPP are well off. They have a community water supply and sewage disposal. But not the rest of the town. They have nothing. And that’s where over 50 per cent of the wells now are polluted with nitrate, which is dangerous to the health of infants. Over 50 per cent of the wells are polluted and yet to this day there are no grants available from this government to rectify that situation. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, a community in southern Ontario having 50 per cent of its wells polluted with a substance that’s dangerous to the health of infants, without a public outcry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"No way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Shocking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Shame."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"It is never mentioned --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That is how the vote goes too. The Tories all vote and they have the sewer and water -- and the Ministry of Natural Resources and the OPP. They are all Tories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"My colleague from Sudbury East is quite right that when you drive into the town, it’s the classic example of the other side of the tracks. You drive into town and there are the nice big white houses where the government employees live. It’s not the fault of those individuals working for the government there now; it’s the fault of a government that doesn’t see that they have created -- and I don’t know whether it is deliberate or not -- such an incredible class structure within that community that there has to be hard feelings, as the people in the town see the government employees really well off while they themselves live in inadequate housing, their water table is polluted and there is no sewage disposal. They live with outdoor privies and unpaved roads, but nothing is ever done. This has been documented to different ministries of government time after time, year after year, and still it is neglected. It is truly a disgrace.",
"Shining Tree, another community, is probably worse off than either Cartier or Gogama. It has inadequate recreational facilities, inadequate garbage disposal, inadequate sewage disposal, inadequate drinking water, inadequate access roads, inadequate medical services, and inadequate telephone service.",
"As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it has no telephone service, and Northern Telephone will not put in lines, despite the fact that Ontario Hydro offered them the use of their poles. They won’t put it in. There’s no ministry in this government that will say, “This is fundamentally wrong, let’s put it in there.” Nobody says that. Those people just wish that they were under the Department of Indian Affairs, where much much smaller communities than those have been provided with services that put this government to shame.",
"Shining Tree also has inadequate housing and inadequate fire protection. Foleyet has inadequate medical services, inadequate garbage disposal, inadequate housing, inadequate drinking water and inadequate sewage disposal. Ramsey has inadequate medical services, inadequate recreational facilities, inadequate garbage disposal, inadequate sewage disposal, inadequate drinking water, and inadequate access roads. As a matter of fact, Ramsey is on a private road, and you have to get a pass to get into it.",
"I’d like to tell you about going into that place one time, Mr. Speaker. When I went in, I had a fellow with me.",
"The fellow at the gate said, “Where are you going?”",
"I said, “Into Ramsey.”",
"He said, “Who are you going to see?”",
"I said, “Well, everybody I can.”",
"He was an employee of Eddy Forest Products, and he said, “What have you got with you?”",
"This was in the wintertime. We said, “We have a few guns and a few grenades and a few Molotov cocktails. It’s the start of the winter campaign.”",
"He said, “You haven’t got any chain saws, have you?”",
"We said, “No, just guns and bombs and that.”",
"He said, “I don’t want you to cut any trees when you’re out there.”",
"So he gave us a key and we went through."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"What was the key for?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"The key is to get through the gate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Did the member shoot any trees?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"It’s locked. There’s a gate at each end and this community is in between the two gates. It’s Crown land and all Eddy Forest have is cutting rights on it, but they’ve put gates up at each end to stop the public from going through. They do open the gates up on the weekend to let people go in and hunt, but you should see the form you have to sign, Mr. Speaker. I’m sure it’s more complicated than an international adoption."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It’s feudal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"You remember the problems they had in the Province of Ontario with this.",
"Those are the kind of antique laws and rules that govern the unorganized communities in northern Ontario. It just doesn’t make sense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Like the sheriff of Nottingham."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Besides having those inadequacies, Ramsey has inadequate housing, inadequate fire protection, and only a Delco unit for the supply of energy, and once again, at much in excess of the rate that Ontario Hydro charges its users.",
"The last community I wish to talk about is Sultan. Sultan is just outside one of these famous gates that Eddy Forest Products has set up. They have inadequate housing, inadequate medical services, inadequate recreational facilities and inadequate access roads. You can only get up from the north because from the south you have to go through that private road. They have inadequate fire protection and inadequate hydro. They too have Delco units, but at three times the rate of Ontario Hydro. They have inadequate telephone service, inadequate garbage disposal, inadequate sewage disposal and inadequate drinking water.",
"I should be careful when I’m quoting this as three times the rate as Ontario Hydro. Maybe now it’s only double!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"It’s only double after the last bills that came out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Particularly with the rural rates."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"After the last raise, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"There are other communities in northern Ontario for which I could document the inadequacy of services, but I think that should point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that it’s a serious matter. It’s not something that this government is not aware of and that it can plead innocent on. They’ve known about it for a number of years and yet they continue to ignore them. Until a platform is put in under those communities and on that platform is a level of services to bring --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Did they ever hear about these problems from the former member? Did he ever speak about them in the Legislature?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"I haven’t seen any correspondence on it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"He spoke about how great these rebates were and how much they were doing for us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"I really want to make the point, Mr. Speaker, that utilizing the resources of the Social Development policy field is not the answer, because that will only perpetuate the problem. It won’t change it at all. It won’t change the cyclical aspect of the problem there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"Will it help the new minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"No?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"No; it would take a major commitment on the part of Management Board to allocate those $30-plus million. Now I hope the provincial secretary is listening and will take a look at those millions that are available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"The Provincial Secretary for Social Development; she is making notes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"There is no excuse for not using them.",
"Lest the provincial secretary think I may be exaggerating somewhat, although it’s hard to think she would accuse me of that, she should check with her own people in her own social development policy field. They will tell her. They know. They know what the inadequacies are there, and they are embarrassed by it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"I think she should drive up there with the hon. member and see first hand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"And, Mr. Speaker, those of us who see discrepancies in the delivery of services in those communities, we see a striking parallel in the similarity between Canada and the United States and southern Ontario and northern Ontario. We, as a country, as a province, are a resource frontier for that great American empire to the south of us; and in turn northern Ontario is a resource frontier for southern Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Remember Dr. Thoman’s plan?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"That’s why we don’t have the kind of development we should have there.",
"And in neither case is the answer in massive infusion of paternalistic pronouncements or grant money. That won’t solve the problem. It’s ridiculous that in northern Ontario this government is still using the announcement of a new highway project or a grant for construction of a government building to do what they think will convince people to vote Conservative.",
"We’ve gone way beyond that in northern Ontario. We’ve passed them way by. It doesn’t matter what they offer in 1975, they’re going to suffer electoral losses in northern Ontario. It’s inevitable.",
"If they don’t believe me, check with the member for Timiskaming. Because we know, and the people in northern Ontario know, that the ad hoc measures the government has come up with to date are not the answer. There’s been too many years of it.",
"There’s a new mood in northern Ontario. The government can write off that whole campaign for a separate province in northern Ontario -- heaven knows I’m not supporting it. They can write that off if they want; to them it’s just an aberration on the social scene, or. the political scene. But it’s more than that. It indicates a very serious feeling of neglect by the people in northern Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That’s why it’s Tory-run."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Yes, it is run by a Tory. Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Is Diebel a Tory?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Yes, sure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Oh."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"If I could, Mr. Speaker, through you ask the various ministers of the government --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Who are all sitting there, of course!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Does it not bother them that the federal Minister of Regional Economic Expansion has admitted that the growth rate in northern Ontario is slower than the growth rate in the Maritimes? Does it not bother them that the population of northern Ontario, in a relative sense, is declining according to the Ontario Economic Review dated September-October, 1973?",
"“Northern Ontario’s proportion of the total provincial population is declining, having fallen from 11.6 per cent in 1961 to 10.1 per cent in 1971.”",
"Why is the relative population of northern Ontario falling? I think it should be clear to the government that it’s because the job offers are not there, the industrial development is not there.",
"Does it not bother you, Mr. Speaker, through you to the ministers, that at International Nickel Co. in Sudbury alone, there are now 5,000 less hourly-rated employees than there were just a couple of years ago? Does it not bother them as well, that the Economic Council of Canada, in its recent report, its 10th annual report, indicates that employment in our resource industries is growing at a very slow rate indeed. I’d like to quote some of those figures to members:",
"For the period 1948 to 1970, employment in mines, quarries and oil wells grew at an annual rate of only 1.4 per cent. In forestry, employment declined at a 1.1 per cent rate per year.",
"That’s a 22-year period.",
"This compares with annual increases of 3.3 per cent in utilities; two per cent in manufacturing; 6.2 per cent in community business and personal services; 2.9 per cent in wholesale and retail trade; 2.5 per cent in construction; and 4.6 per cent in finance, insurance and real estate -- to name just a few sectors.",
"And for the economy as a whole, employment grew at an annual rate of 2.4 per cent. It should be noted that while employment increased by 1.4 per cent in the mines, quarries and oil well sector, output was up by 6.5 per cent per year for those 22 years. For the forestry sector which had, members will recall, a decline in employment of 1.1 per cent a year, output increased by 4.2 per cent a year. For both forestry and mining, employment is stagnating and production is going up at above normal rates. That is what this government means for the future of northern Ontario if it continues on its present path.",
"There is a great deal that should bother this government about northern Ontario besides those unorganized communities I was talking about. Not least should be the future of our young, better educated people of both sexes in northern Ontario. We now have community colleges in all the major centres in northern Ontario. We have two universities in northern Ontario. But isn’t it ironic that the better paying, more stimulating jobs are not there for those same graduates? What does the government propose to do about that? I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that it stop trying to bribe northern Ontario with these one-shot construction jobs. It won’t work any more. Tell us, rather, that it intends to intervene in an aggressive way in our resource industries. Tell us it intends to use our resources to create jobs. Tell us it intends to do these things through Crown corporations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Show us the way. It has given its shirt away."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Show us, Mr. Speaker, that it really does comprehend what economic development is all about. It is not grants."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The government has given everything away but the kitchen sink."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"In other words, Mr. Speaker, we don’t want roads to resources. We want resources. I suspect that the mining industry is beginning to feel the pressure as public opinion changes across Canada and in this province as well. Public opinion is becoming very concerned about the role the mining industry has played in our economy and it is interesting to note how the mining industry reacts when the pressure is on.",
"I would like to quote very briefly from the Mining Association of BC which the member from Forest Hill quoted. This is Mr. W. J. Tough, who is president of the Mining Association of BC.",
"“Two things are expected to happen from the royalty increase in B.C. With the additional costs those who have the option will have to raise the grade of ore mined, thereby reducing reserves and shortening the life of the mines, not to mention leaving much needed valuable minerals in the ground.”",
"I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, if that isn’t a clarion call to arms I don’t know what is. There you have the Mining Association of BC saying if the taxes are raised they are going to high-grade the ore and leave the rest in the ground. If that is the kind of intimidation we’ll subject ourselves to in this country, I suggest it is time we did something about those resources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The minister bends over backwards to the industry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"I don’t know what you call that but I can only think of the words intimidation and bluffing. It is really a bluff because they are not going to move anywhere else because the ores aren’t anywhere else."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"He needs a bar of soap."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"The Mining Association of BC is just one. Let me quote from the Northern Miner, March 7, 1974. This is the Mining Association of Canada, Mr. Charles Elliott. He noted that there are deterrents to increasing processing and manufacturing in mineral products in Canada imposed by the tariff structure of other industrialized nations which allow duty-free entry or very little duty on ores and concentrates which they require. They impose progressively higher duties on minerals in proportion to the degree of further processing which has occurred. Mr. Elliott cited other non-tariff barriers including the structure of freight rates which make it generally cheaper to transport minerals in concentrate rather than in metallic form. A competitive advantage is thus gained by processing plants located close to metal markets, he explained. “Let us not delude ourselves that we can, by the wave of a wand, create further processing of our mineral products beyond what good economics will support,” he said.",
"If I could just paraphrase what Mr. Elliott is saying, he is saying that it is really difficult for us to increase processing in this country because other countries have low import rates on unfinished ores and high tariffs on finished products. Does he not see the insanity of going along with that? Of course other countries will say, “Look, you ship us your ores. We’ll process them here. We’ll give you a good deal on the tariff because we want to process them here.”",
"That is where the employment is, in the processing and in the refining, not in the extraction from the ground. We saw that in the employment figures. It is declining. So the job opportunities are in the processing and refining, and here we have the president of the Mining Association of Canada saying it would be very difficult to process and refine our ore here because there is a real break on tariffs when we ship it out in unprocessed form.",
"What kind of convoluted logic is that, that we are subjecting ourselves to?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"They need to do it themselves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"It is too ridiculous. I suspect that the mining associations are overreacting to the kind of public pressure that is building in this country and in this province. While it may not be a ground swell yet, I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the public ownership of our resources is going to be one and the day will come when all governments will realize the benefits of it.",
"As other jurisdictions, such as BC, move stronger and stronger into the resource industry and take more in taxation from those corporations, people in other jurisdictions, such as Ontario, will say, “Why are we in Ontario allowed so little return back?” That is going to happen. It is happening now.",
"It is significant as well that this feeling from the public is being expressed by different people from all walks of life. We had Eric Kierans with his report saying that you couldn’t really nationalize what you already owned anyway, so let’s get on with the business. We had Kates Peat Marwick with its report last spring to the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism. Then there is the Science Council of Canada’s report, which frankly and unequivocably says that there are certain benefits to public ownership of our natural resources, and more recently we had another report from Kates Peat Marwick entitled “Foreign Ownership, Corporate Behaviour and Public Attitudes.” This report was the overview report, also for the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism.",
"Now those who know Kates Peat Marwick as a consulting firm will know that it doesn’t have a bias towards socialism, that on the other hand it is a corporation that fits very well in the corporate milieu in Ontario. I’d like to quote from that report in talking about national resources as a bargaining lever. I quote:",
"“One obvious area in which Canada has significant comparative advantages relative to most industrial countries is that of natural resources. [And they go on further:] It has been easier to sell our natural resources and import technology and manufactured products from other countries than to build a domestically controlled industrial complex which matches in size, range and self-reliance the scope of our domestic market and resource base. [And then, going further:] Canada’s resource base, coupled with the growing shortages of energy and mineral resources being experienced by most industrialized countries, provides us with a significant bargaining lever which can be used in a number of ways.”",
"I’d like to quote a couple of those ways that we can use our resources as a bargaining lever, according to Kates Peat Marwick:",
"“To influence the behaviour of firms developing and purchasing our resources such that both forward and backward integration is carried out in this country, leading to greater value added in Canada, more use of Canadian suppliers in a more broadly based, innovative, responsive, remunerated industrial system in Canada, and to generate in those carefully selected cases where resources are exported in unprocessed or semi-processed form, revenues which will be used both to finance the development of a broader resource and industrial base and to purchase control on a selective basis of a number of large, key corporations which are now foreign controlled.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Here comes the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier). He is going to refute all that. He is going to use Dr. Andrews’ report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Now Kates Peat Marwick doesn’t come right out and say that we should bring all our national resources under public ownership, but when it does talk they use rather cautious language. There is a very interesting paragraph right near the end of that report and I quote it in full:",
"“It should also be emphasized that purchasing of Canadian control, while possibly requiring government initiative for immediate results, does not necessarily imply public ownership of the selected key firms. Shares acquired by government agencies such as the Canada Development Corp. could in turn be sold to Canadian citizens and corporations, although in some cases, particularly those of firms involved in non-renewable natural resources, continuing public ownership might be more appropriate.”",
"Mr. Speaker, when you have Kates Peat Marwick and Co. recommending that the continuing public ownership of our natural resources “might be more appropriate,” one can be sure that they feel underneath, they have a gut feeling, that it has go to be that way -- not just “might be more appropriate.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"It is now a case of giving them to some American firm. Repeat that for the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"I don’t think the minister heard it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Repeat that for the minister; he didn’t hear it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Would the Minister of Natural Resources like me to repeat that? I said:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "” -- the Canada Development Corp. could in turn be sold to Canadian citizens and corporations, although in some cases, particularly those of firms involved in non-renewable natural resources, continuing public ownership might be more appropriate.”",
"text": [
"Well, translate “might be more appropriate” to “would be more appropriate.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"It would be a damn good idea."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"So here we have a consulting report that recommends basically more Canadian control in the industry. That is really what they are talking about -- Canadian control. Now, I suppose they would see it as returning the resources to control by Canadian corporations to those same corporate interests that sold them out in the first place. Well, that is not my bag; we certainly reject that.",
"It is becoming clearer and clearer to us on this side -- well, this particular segment of this side of the House -- as it is to a growing number of people in Ontario and elsewhere, that only through public ownership of our resources will the people of this province receive a maximum benefit from their exploitation.",
"There are three major reasons. People sometimes ask me, “Why? How would we all benefit so much?” There are three major reasons, I believe, why our resources should be publicly owned:",
"1. To create employment and to ensure employment in that industry.",
"2. To provide revenues so that the quality of life can be improved for all people, but in particular those people in those resource-rich communities. Take a look at those resource-rich communities in northern Ontario. Some of them are the very communities that I outlined earlier this afternoon as not even having the basic amenities."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Right on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"The same communities.",
"3. Because I believe that only through public ownership can we maintain our economic independence; and that is really what the select committee was talking about and that is what Kates Peat Marwick is talking about.",
"It is not enough, Mr. Speaker, that we talk about increasing the taxation of these resources. Mr. Speaker, for 20 years I have listened to the mining industry tell us that if we increase the taxes on our resources we would restrict growth, we would restrict exploration, we would restrict development. Well, I am not for restricting those things, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The former Minister of Mines said we would bankrupt them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"-- and that’s why I say that taxing them more in a short-term may accomplish something, but not in the long term.",
"The private sector has had three-quarters of a century in this province to create some kind of industrial development based on those resources as a lever. They have failed miserably, and in doing so they haven’t even created the kind of communities in the north that should just have been automatic in their development -- but they haven’t done it.",
"Our economy has not developed in a healthy way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"But they have been helped by the Tory government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Well, they have been pushed by the Tory government to develop that way and by the present Minister of Natural Resources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"He is the worst one of them all.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That is not spoken in jest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Tongue in cheek?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is not even fair to ask or to expect that the multinational corporations will develop secondary industry in Ontario, because that is not the way in which they can maximize their profits. That’s the name of the game. We shouldn’t expect otherwise of them, because to do so is naive. So let’s not think or be mad at the multinationals; it is not their fault. They are there to maximize their profits for the shareholders. Those are the rules of the game, and we should accept them. I would like to quote from the Science Council report that was put out a year or so ago:",
"“In longer term perspective we must bear in mind that these resources are non-renewable and that they are finite. Projecting past growth rates into the future will exhaust presently known reserves of several of our major minerals by 1990. With a vigorous exploration programme we could probably find most of these exploitable deposits and thus sustain the exponential rate of growth for a few more decades.",
"“But is this wise? Do we wish to be remembered as the generation that launched Canada on a programme of rapid exploitation for the export, in raw or semi-processed form, of the resources which will be in such short supply for our children and our grandchildren? Anything beyond the year 2000 looks very far away from 1972, but the year 2000 is only as far in the future as 1944 is in the past.”",
"Mr. Speaker, that’s what the Science Council of Canada says about our non-renewable resources. Our Minister of Natural Resources has had someone within his ministry commissioned, I believe, to do a report on the Kierans report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"What a dummy! Another flunky!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"That critique of the Kierans report isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. I would suggest that maybe the minister should spend more time reading the Science Council of Canada’s reports on our natural resources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)",
"text": [
"What’s the member’s philosophy?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"What philosophy? All the mining officials employed over there haven’t any philosophy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"It’s a lot of fresh air and the member knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"There is not a person over there that is not hooked by him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there is no question but that the mining industry is one of the basic underpinnings of our economy. I don’t question that. As such, it should be treated as an integral part of the development of this province. Call it an industrial plan or an industrial strategy, if you want, but natural resources should be part of that strategy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"They haven’t got one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"There is a way to ensure that the exploitation of those resources occurs for the benefit of the entire province and the people in it. I’ll be most specific here. This government should develop a policy by which they will work toward a world-market-oriented metal fabricating secondary processing and manufacturing industry located in northern Ontario.",
"The mining companies have a miserable record. They all tend to export earnings to other resource frontiers rather than to spend them in this province to develop a more mature, balanced and integrated economy.",
"One need only look, Mr. Speaker, at the antics of Falconbridge Nickel Mines elsewhere to know that the mining companies presently operating in this province do so only because it is to their advantage. When reserves are developed elsewhere that are cheaper to extract and to develop, then you can be sure that that’s where the action will be. It will not be here.",
"I, for one, Mr. Speaker, am not proud of the way corporations such as Falconbridge, Rio Algom through its parent company Rio Tinto, aid and abet in the exploitation of people and resources elsewhere. I refer specifically to South Africa.",
"I don’t expect that a province such as Ontario with a Conservative government like we have which had every intention of sending a trade mission to South Africa, really to understand or care about the exploitation of blacks in South Africa. But it’s happening and it’s happening at least partially as a result of the profits those resource corporations have obtained in Canada and in this province. I would much rather see any surplus that’s generated from the development of our resources here in Ontario go toward making this province, as well as other societies, a better place in which to live, rather than contributing to racist regimes and exploitation of labour in South Africa.",
"Mr. Speaker, it is most unlikely that the role of Falconbridge Nickel will change, since no one should have any illusions whatsoever about the prime role of multinational corporations. Their sole purpose is to maximize profits for the benefit of their shareholders. By locating and expanding refining and smelting operations in countries such as Canada and Norway, it’s merely utilizing cheap labour elsewhere to acquire raw material from the underdeveloped countries to feed those refineries and smelters.",
"The president of Falconbridge Nickel Mines, when commenting on the problems of pollution control and other relatively high production costs in this country, has been quoted as saying:",
"“These and other adverse factors will in future make Canada’s nickel sulphide reserves less profitable relative to the lateritic ores. Gradually some of today’s nickel reserves in Canada will be written off as unprofitable and the production rates of individual mines will then decline.”",
"So let us have no illusions about the corporations that are now operating in our resource industries. When it suits the purpose of Falconbridge Nickel Mines to concentrate its activities elsewhere, it will do just that, and we in Ontario will be left with environmental scars, depleted resources and unemployment.",
"The Development Education Centre, located here in Toronto, has done some excellent research into the behaviour of corporations in underdeveloped countries. Their comments about the working conditions of Falconbridge miners in Namibia in South-West Africa are worth putting on the record, Mr. Speaker. I quote from the Development Education Centre report:",
"“Workers are housed in cement block houses, 15 to a dormitory.",
"“The method of hiring used by Falconbridge, until a general strike in December, 1971, was the South-West Africa Native Labour Association. This organization was composed of the employers, including Falconbridge, who traded in humans in a manner described by the International Commission of Jurists as ‘akin to slavery.’",
"Africans labelled as A, B or C class physical specimens were given 12- to 18- month contracts, with wages of about $40 per month.”",
"That is about one-third of the poverty datum line requirement.",
"Here is the form that was made out for them when they went to work:",
"“The said master agrees to hire the service of the said servant and the said servant agrees to render the said master his or their service at all fair and reasonable times in the capacity of [a blank space for the job] for [a blank space for the period of time], commencing on [such and such a date].",
"“It is further agreed that the said master shall pay the said servant wages at the rate shown against the name of the said servant and that such wages shall be paid monthly.",
"“Identity permits are mandatory, and labels were tied around the necks of the workers, bearing his name, his prospective boss and the latter’s address.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Good old Falconbridge."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"The report continues:",
"“Workers were often forbidden to leave the compound, and families were strictly barred from the mine area.",
"“Although the South-West Africa Native Labour Association was broken by the general strike in 1971, most of its characteristics still remain. Wages for an African worker range from $24 to $63 per month, and Falconbridge displays no intention of cutting into its profits in order to pay $110 a month, the poverty datum line minimum considered necessary to maintain health.”",
"The behaviour of multinational corporations resident in this province is something that we, as elected people, should be concerned about, Mr. Speaker, because we are guilty of complicity if we know this is going on and continue to do nothing about it and to regard corporations such as Falconbridge as good corporate citizens when they are nothing of the kind.",
"It is not enough, Mr. Speaker, to say that we must not interfere in the affairs of another country. The State of Namibia was supposed to be an independent state since 1966 when the United Nations terminated South Africa’s mandate over that territory. This was confirmed again in 1971 by the International Court of Justice, which declared South Africa’s presence in Namibia to be illegal. South Africa has ignored this declaration and has continued to occupy Namibia. The role of corporations such as Falconbridge should not be under-rated in the exploitation of these people.",
"Resources are being exploited, and corporations such as Falconbridge, Noranda Mines, Hudson’s Bay Co., Rio Tinto, are playing a major role in the exploitation of both the people and the resources of Namibia.",
"Mr. Speaker, the government of Ontario has neither the will nor the power to do anything about what Falconbridge is doing in Namibia or in the Dominican Republic, so it would be folly to suggest that this government should say to Falconbridge, “Stop what you are doing in Namibia.” What this government does have the power to do, though -- and it should be obvious -- is to exploit those resources ourselves, rather than to allow Falconbridge Nickel Mines to do so. And rather than to allow the carnivorous multinationals to do it, we should do it ourselves. It is more than an economic obligation. It’s an obligation that goes beyond the borders of this province and beyond the borders of this continent.",
"I wonder, Mr. Speaker, how many untold stories there are about the multinational corporations involved in the resource industry. I have told only one. I suspect that others are no better, no worse. A Crown corporation that was developing and processing our resources would not dare to exploit workers in South Africa the way Falconbridge has done. Our resources, Mr. Speaker, must be developed by Crown corporations and not by the multinationals."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Taylor (Prince Edward-Lennox)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, may I say a few words, first in connection with the section in the Throne Speech dealing with seatbelts. And then, if I may, I would like to carry on with other aspects of the speech.",
"I may say that I have some misgivings in connection with this particular item. I know that there was a private member’s bill and I know that there was considerable support by members on all sides of the House.",
"It has been mentioned here this afternoon, by the hon. member for York-Forest Hill, that there may be some legal ramifications or implications in connection with the subject matter of seatbelts and, in particular, if seatbelts are not worn. That is, the operator of the motor vehicle or the person who fails to wear a seatbelt may be considered as contributing to his own injury, or being the author of his own misfortune, if he fails to wear a seatbelt and is injured as the result of an accident.",
"What concerns me, Mr. Speaker, in connection with this whole area is the role of government insofar as it affects the personal lives of the individuals. If government climbs into the automobile, of course, then we expect the government to be climbing into the bedroom, and who knows where that may lead? There may be some argument to say that if we can protect a person from himself and from his own misjudgement then, of course, we can keep premiums down and rates down. Of course, our NDP friends would like to see government-sponsored plans, government insurance. Thereby, I suppose, if we could reduce the accident rate or the personal injury rate in any way at all that would reflect on the premiums.",
"So one can see the insidious workings of government control in this field and in many other fields, if we let the whole matter run to its logical conclusion. If we say to a person, “You must wear a seatbelt because we want to protect you from yourself. We have a government medical plan. If you don’t wear a seatbelt then there may be more claims against the plan,” that leads, of course, to other claims against the plan that may be made for a patient, for example, not following 100 per cent the dictates of his doctor.",
"Who knows, the doctor may prescribe six weeks vacation for someone and the person then may fail to take that six weeks vacation, following a slight coronary, because the person who has suffered the illness and who is considering very much his own family life as well as his own personal welfare may not be able economically to pursue the dictates of his doctor. If he didn’t do that, following the logic in this, his coverage might be curtailed for some reason or other because he hasn’t followed the prescriptions of the plan.",
"So we’re getting into an area here that is a very personal matter, and I don’t see how a government can legislate common sense. I don’t see how a government can supervise the behaviour or an individual within his own domicile or in his own automobile.",
"An area that particularly concerns me is public transportation, which hasn’t been mentioned. The Throne Speech refers to mandatory use of automobile seatbelts. It refers to automobiles. But what about the buses? What happens to the hundreds of thousands of school children who take school buses? If one goes into the countryside one will find that they have a difficult time finding a seat, let alone a seatbelt to strap themselves in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)",
"text": [
"There was a pretty good private member’s bill introduced on that last year and it is coming again this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Sure. It was a very interesting private member’s bill, and as I mentioned initially when I started out, it received support from members on all sides of the House but, at the same time, I think we have to be very careful in introducing government in an area where a person’s freedom is restrained.",
"The area also, in addition to buses, might include streetcars, subways or any method of transportation in which a person could be subjected to injury if there was an accident between that vehicle and some other vehicle or for some other cause.",
"Surely the legislation doesn’t propose to cover the areas of subways, streetcars and buses?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"How would the member like to be strapped to a snowmobile?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"I don’t know how that would function if the government did attempt to legislate in that direction."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"There is real dissent in the Tory back-benchers about this bill. I am amazed. I thought the Tories voted like sheep on everything."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"There are lots of sheep in his riding."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Well, that goes to show the member for Ottawa Centre doesn’t think."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I know the Tory backbenchers certainly don’t. There’s conclusive evidence about that. Look at the legislation they’ve supported."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"The member is all wet again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"He should know about sheep, coming from his riding."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"I won’t digress from the subject of seatbelts in order to get into sheep or in order to get into other forms of animal life with which the member is so familiar."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"He hasn’t got enough imagination, that’s why."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"What’s that supposed to mean?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"The member can take whatever meaning he would like from that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"This is literally repartee the member is giving us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"The other side of the coin --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I think he has lost his train of thought."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"-- also is, what is the role of the state in compensating an individual for damage or injury which he may suffer as a result of having his seatbelt off when it is established that he suffered that damage for that reason?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Good point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Good point, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Would there be something in the legislation to compensate the victim of a seatbelt? I understand that on some occasions there are some people who are injured as a result of wearing belts."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The member has just scrapped the Elevators and Lifts Act, the Construction Safety Act and every other measure that tries to protect people because people might get hurt in the process.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"Let’s hear the words of wisdom."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"That’s very kind of the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"If I were he I would close my ears."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)",
"text": [
"The House had quite a time when I was out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"I close my ears when the member for Ottawa Centre is speaking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"I thought I should comment on that initially because there’s so much in the Throne Speech that signals great things to come."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Name one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"I will, and the member will hear from me more on that if he will just bear with me for a moment. As a matter of fact, he might want to bring his confrères into the House to hear the rest of what I may have to say."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Is the member for or against seatbelts?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"I’ve just indicated, Mr. Speaker, that I’m dealing with the point of seatbelts initially because that is one area of disagreement that I may have with the contents of the Throne Speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"He admits it.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"No, I wouldn’t. I would like to say that the smallest speck is seen on snow. When we come to the rest of the speech, members will see the wisdom and the many items that will herald greater things too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The seatbelts are the 1974 equivalent of the wolf bounty. That’s right. There will be a great Tory revolt over seatbelts."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"A Maple Mountain."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Is the member for or against seatbelts?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it has been asked of me whether or not I am for or in favour of seatbelts. Now that is a profound question indeed. And as a matter of fact coming from the member for Thunder Bay it is most remarkable that he should ask such a penetrating question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Give us an answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"It is the most lucid thing that I have heard him say all day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"It was better than this speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Simply, my answer is I am in favour of seatbelts, but I think that the wearing of those seatbelts should be at the option of the operator or the passenger of the motor vehicle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The member favours seatbelts so long as they are not used."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Well, that is the member’s usual --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That is precisely what the member said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"That’s right. Mr. Speaker, the member from Toronto Island has made a convoluted observation. If he can’t torture and twist the truth and make it scream, then of course he is not happy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"He has a warped mind."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"And I must say that if there was to be an award for that type of talk then he would be an Oscar winner."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The member will never urge his children to wear seatbelts because it is a matter for their individual choice."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I won’t pursue the question of seatbelts any further. I may say, to satisfy and put at ease the mind of my hon. friend from Ottawa Centre --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"“Toronto and the Islands.” Don’t forget that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"-- and the Toronto Islands -- that personally I do wear a seatbelt; but that is my choice. I think in our system it is essential one have the choice --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"What about motorcyclists with their helmets?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"-- either to wear a seatbelt or not. And I won’t get into that area of the hardhats. If you wipe your brow and take your hat off, you will be breaching the law and probably incarcerated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"What about the motorcyclists with their helmets?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Taylor",
"text": [
"Now, Mr. Speaker, it is approaching 6 o’clock and I would adjourn the debate and with your permission I would like to carry on with the rest of my speech tomorrow.",
"Mr. Taylor moves the adjournment of the debate.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House I would like to say the first order of business tomorrow will be item 1 on the order paper. Subsequently, I anticipate calling Bill 12, which is the bill that was introduced today. It will be printed and distributed the first thing tomorrow morning.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 6 o’clock, p.m."
]
}
] |
March 12, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-12/hansard
|
POINT OF PRIVILEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. L. Maeck (Parry Sound)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The point of privilege first."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"I wish to draw to your attention, sir, what I think is a blatant breach of the privilege of the members of this House by a senior civil servant.",
"Apparently there is to be tabled in the House today, by the Attorney General (Mr. Welch), a report of the Law Reform Commission dealing with family law. Copies of this report were made available on Friday by a senior official of the Attorney General’s department to two Toronto newspapers, and only to two Toronto newspapers, the Globe and Mail and the Star. They were not solicited by these papers; the reports were handed to representatives of these papers.",
"Not only were all the rest of the news media ignored -- The Canadian Press, all the radio and television stations and so on -- but much more serious, Mr. Speaker, was the fact that this information was first brought to the attention of the public by news stories far in advance of the information being available to the members of the House.",
"It would be my submission, sir, that there has been a very serious breach of the privileges of the House; that information of this sort, commissioned by this House, directed to the Law Reform Commission, has no right to be handled in this way; and that for whatever reasons, the official of the Attorney General’s department acted in serious breach of the privileges of this House, and I think he should be disciplined by you, sir."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Of course I am sure that the facts submitted by the hon. member for Downsview are correct. I have not had any prior knowledge of the situation, nor do I have any other information than that submitted by the hon. member for Downsview, which I do, of course, accept as being correct at this moment.",
"Before I undertake to make any further comments, while it does appear as if there has been a breach of privilege, I would ask the indulgence of the hon. member, and the House indeed, for time to look into this matter and to get all of the information available so that I might be in a position to comment further upon it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"On the point of privilege just for a moment, Mr. Speaker, I am so relieved to have this particular report out and public that one would almost excuse anything. But I must say, apart from the apparent impropriety of giving it only to selected news media representatives, it really is a bit much, Mr. Speaker, that the report could not simultaneously be tabled in the House so that those of us who are called to comment on it, on any side of the House, might have an opportunity to scan through it as quickly as those from the media."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Maeck",
"text": [
"I would like to introduce some students from the great riding of Parry Sound, 29 grade 8 students from the elementary school at Britt, who are in the east gallery."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Statements by the ministry."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
CONSOLIDATED COMPUTER INC.
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a statement regarding Consolidated Computer Inc., which is being released by the federal agency and the company at this very hour. I wish at this time to inform the hon. members of new financing arrangements being entered into by the Ontario Development Corp, and the federal government’s General Adjustment Assistance Board with respect to support for Consolidated Computer Inc. This new joint support programme will enable the company to expand in both the North American and overseas computer markets.",
"As members may be aware, Consolidated Computer is the largest Canadian-owned computer manufacturing company. Their products are already installed in 18 countries throughout the world. The company has developed two new products, the Key-Edit 50 and the Key-Edit 1000 systems, which have not yet been introduced to the North American market, although the Ontario government has recently purchased the 50 system for the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, and the federal government for its Manpower division has purchased the 1000 system.",
"The General Adjustment Assistance Board has indicated willingness to support a lease-financing programme for the marketing of the company’s products here in North America. It is our understanding that they will have a financing programme up to a maximum of $26 million. New federal and provincial support will be provided through a plan that will make available up to $7 million to the company in additional operating funds during 1974. Of that amount, $3 million has now been advanced, half by GAAB and half by ODC. Over the long term, the plan foresees increased participation in the ownership of the company by private industry.",
"I think it would be useful, Mr. Speaker, for me to say a few words about the history of Consolidated Computer Inc. It was formed in 1968 and became a public company in 1969. In the fall of 1971 the company suffered a liquidity crisis and went into receivership. However, with the support of ODC and GAAB the company was reorganized and was profitable in 1972.",
"During 1972 and 1973 the company carried out a major redesign of its products and restructured its plant and products into two new systems. Development expense amounted to several million dollars. Large orders were secured from two firms in Europe and Japan and South America. Two of the company’s overseas customers, ICL in England and Fujitsu in Japan, are the largest non-American computer companies. Unfortunately the development of the new system took longer and cost more than anticipated which resulted in losses in 1973.",
"In spite of these losses, the company’s current prospects, while carrying some risks, are believed sufficient to merit the support of GAAB and ODC in attempting to penetrate the North American market and expand into overseas markets. The prime objective of our assistance is to help develop a viable, self-sustaining Canadian-owned and operated company that is based on high technology. There are certainly risks associated with any venture into this area but we consider that the company has a reasonable chance of achieving this objective.",
"This year the company expects to export $23 million worth of its new systems, purchase $5 million in Canadian components and increase employment above the current rate of 550, of whom 400 are in Ottawa associated with the company’s engineering and manufacturing operations. To date direct loans or guaranteed advances from ODC amounted to $4.3 million. Under the new programme, ODC may advance another $3.5 million.",
"We will, of course, monitor the operations of Consolidated Computer very closely. There are several conditions to the agreement for the extension of the funds. We have already taken steps to ensure that over the next few months, the company’s management will have the best support available. To this end ODC and GAAB have arranged for the appointment of Mr. W. V. (Bill) Moore, former president of IBM Canada, as full-time interim chairman of the board of Consolidated Computer.",
"Hon. members will no doubt have taken note that the Ontario Securities Commission, in consultation with the company, temporarily suspended trading of Consolidated Computer stock last Friday. This action was taken to enable the financial community to properly assess the impact of these new arrangements on the company’s financial status."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions. The hon. member for York Centre."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
WITHDRAWAL OF TEACHERS’ SERVICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) I wish to ask the Premier if, in view of the fact that the chairman of the negotiating committee a week ago suggested the possibility of the minister’s setting up a trusteeship, and in view of the fact that I now have 7,309 names in two days, names of registered voters who wish such a trusteeship, will the government --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)",
"text": [
"The member went out soliciting on Saturday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)",
"text": [
"Did the member consult with his leader?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"In the event of a lack of agreement being reached by continued negotiations today, or the teachers not agreeing to voluntary binding arbitration by 9 p.m. tonight, will the government introduce legislation it might feel is necessary to set up a trusteeship, or at least follow the path the government used on a previous occasion when a board got into financial difficulty and under section 12(1) of the Ministry of Education Act did set up legislation for trusteeship. Will the Premier undertake to do that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, the Premier won’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"In light of the fact that for over five weeks students have not been educated in the high schools of York county, at least not a full education, and the fact that something has to be done and that voluntary arbitration is preferable to compulsory arbitration, will the Premier indicate to us what he will do?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Is the member making a speech or asking a question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is asking for compulsory arbitration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The acting leader of the opposition party, in his usual convoluted way, is asking this government, in solving the problem, to encroach upon local autonomy about which he preaches with such vigour from time to time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It’s the government’s problem, why shouldn’t the Premier solve it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The answer is that this government is far more concerned, obviously, about the welfare of those 14,000 students than the members of the opposition. This has been evident here for a long time. But I would think the hon. members response the other night at the meeting of the board, where many board members disagreed, and members of the public as well, with the approach that he was taking, should have been sufficient indication.",
"The Minister of Education has worked on this problem, as he has on the other 16, with a great deal of success; the York one has not been successful to date. It poses a very real problem for this government and it is our hope that we can come to grips with it.",
"But I would say with respect, to the acting leader of that party, that it’s time the hypocrisy was over; they should recognize that having voted against Bill 274, as they did, which bill was intended to bring some of these things to an end, and today coming in here as they are, is just completely contradictory."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Would the Premier not agree --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West wanted a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member has had one. We’ll take turns on it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The hon. member can open it again if he wishes.",
"Can I ask the Premier; could he table the document which the Minister of Education submitted as a basis for arbitration, or could he tell us specifically of its content as it relates to non-monetary items?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t recite these matters specifically. There were several items contained in the proposal from the minister to the board and to the profession, which I understand was acceptable, and I think as a matter of fact was executed by the board; but the various items in it I can’t relate to the hon. member. However I do believe I can get him a copy of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"In view of the proposition put forward by the member for York Centre, has it been drawn to the Premier’s attention at any time that the board of education in the county of York has been acting irresponsibly?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if that question is directed to me, or through me to the acting leader of the opposition party, it’s quite obvious that the acting leader of the opposition party is saying that York county board is incapable, is acting irresponsibly and is not acting in the interests of the elected people in that part of the Province of Ontario; I am not prepared to say that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"One supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"In view of the fact that the Premier has talked about hypocrisy, would not the Premier agree that five weeks of no school in York and the minister’s intervention being so ineffective would indicate maybe there is hypocrisy on his side?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I would say this, and I will quote to members opposite, chapter and verse, the observations made by some of their own members as to how a few weeks out of school would be a good thing for the kids. I say to the House that this government is far more concerned than members opposite about the educational welfare of the children in York. And this was demonstrated here last December. The member should read what his leader said in Peterborough."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"The Premier didn’t help education quality then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Come on. The member knows better.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. In keeping with the programme of alternating, it is the NDP’s turn. The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Although the Premier cannot remember the details of the documents submitted by the minister and executed by the board, can he recall if the contentious pupil-teacher ratio was specifically mentioned in the document, and the assurance to the teachers that that ratio would not be above the provincial average?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a copy of the document here. The minister is meeting on this situation at this precise moment. I expect he will be here fairly shortly. Quite frankly, because there are discussions going on, I would like to talk to the minister before I table this as a public document; but I do have it here and if the minister has no objection we will undertake to do it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is kind of crucial to the debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"This must not develop into a debate and there have been five supplementaries. I will permit one more; the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the parents of the children attending these North York secondary schools have made arrangements for their children to attend Toronto secondary schools, what action does the ministry plan on taking to ensure that they are in attendance at the North York schools?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"How is the member going to vote when he brings it in?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, one would think that the member for Windsor-Walkerville, who had something to contribute with respect to the debates of last December, wouldn’t be too concerned that the children have only been out the five weeks. I recall very factually how this was a good educational experience, some of it flowing from over in the other opposition party admittedly.",
"I would say to the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville that the attendance by the York students within the Metropolitan Toronto school system, in my opinion, does not constitute a viable alternative to the proper functioning of the educational system in York itself; so we are not encouraging it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre on a new question."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
CONSOLIDATED COMPUTER INC.
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Industry and Tourism: In view of the fact that we have just heard the announcement about Consolidated Computer, is it proposed to give some of the government business now awarded to IBM to Consolidated Computer to help this company?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in my statement I have already covered that very point. One of the machines, the new production, the 50 model, has been purchased by the government of Ontario for the Ministry of Transportation and Communications. Complimentary remarks should be paid to the federal government; it has purchased the 1000 series for the Manpower centre in Ottawa as well. That, I think, speaks well of both governments trying to stimulate some activity with a Canadian company."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
MANAGEMENT BOARD ORDERS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Chairman of the Management Board: In view of item No. 66 in the auditor’s report indicating that Management Board orders amounted to some $110 million, of which $96 million was actually spent, why was it not possible for this very substantial amount of money -- as I would consider it and I think most people in the province would consider it -- to be approved by cabinet and presented to the Legislature? Was there a shortage of time or was it considered to be an insignificant amount?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, all these moneys, of course, are spent in the public’s best interest and it is not always --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Is that right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I say yes to the member. It is not always that the moneys which appear in Management Board orders are separate items; they are often transferred within departments. Therefore if the member wanted to be specific and had a point I would answer it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: In view of the fact that most of the moneys, or a good part of the moneys, are spent before this Legislature does consider them, because we don’t get into the estimates until after the budget is handed down and we don’t complete their consideration until late in the year, would it not be appropriate for these Management Board orders to indeed be placed before the Legislature for consideration during the year so that we actually do have an opportunity to comment upon them and whether, in our view, they are in the public interest?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there is a Management Board of Cabinet Act, as I am sure the hon. member knows, and he will have the opportunity to discuss: them in due course when the estimates are before the committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, surely the Chairman of the Management Board must recognize the basic principle of responsibility to the Legislature, and through the Legislature to the people of Ontario, for expenditures. Would the chairman not agree that the expenditure of $100 million by Management Board order is stretching the credibility of the people of Ontario and is really spending money without proper legislative review?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that is not the case. The Management Board of Cabinet Act was passed by this Legislature, and we conform to it very rigidly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Supplementary? The hon member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Attorney General: Will the Attorney General tell us how long he has had the Board orders when his estimates come up. That, I think he will agree, will be about 15 months after the actual expenditure of the money. What steps will he take in future in order to ensure the possibility of debate of Management Board orders at or around the time that the money is being spent?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the entire matter is open to discussion and surveillance by the public accounts committee and, as far as the calling of estimates is concerned, I think the hon. member knows full well that we spent more time last year than we have ever spent before. As far as that session was concerned, the members opposite had the opportunity but it was used for other purposes; I have no arguments there. When the opportunity comes for the estimates to appear before the estimates committee, I will be there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That’s current estimates. We are talking about a year ago."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
LAW REFORM COMMISSION REPORTS ON FAMILY LAW
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Attorney General: Will the Attorney General tell us how long he has had the Ontario Law Reform Commission reports on family law and when we can expect to receive legislation based on it for consideration by this House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)",
"text": [
"Well, Mr. Speaker, I just happen to have some copies of the report with me this afternoon, which I am going to table; and following full public discussion, our legislative proposal will be placed before this House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why did the minister give it to the papers on Friday?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Supplementary: What was the point of leaking the report in the fashion he did prior to its being tabled in the House and only to selective groups in the media?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Two papers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"How did he come to that decision?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Well, I think the word “selective” is a very unfortunate word to use --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"It was a very unfortunate practice."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Quite accurate, though."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"It’s a very good word, but it doesn’t happen to describe what happened, so there’s a nice distinction."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"What did happen?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"If I might just explain the procedures: There are occasions when the Ontario Law Reform Commission’s reports have in fact been released prior to them being tabled in the House. The Attorney General, I understand from the legislation, can decide how in fact he makes these reports public or what reports he does make public. But let me explain, quite frankly, what I did in connection with this: These three reports were there. The contents, as far as I am concerned, have far- and wide-ranging implications. There are those in the media who, I think, are very responsible and who suggested that if in fact it was to be properly reported, there might be some advantage if they had the opportunity to study the report --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, come on. Only two of the media of the whole province are responsible?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"-- so that in fact they could quite correctly expand on it in the course of reporting. Therefore, those who requested it, on the understanding that it would not appear until such time as it was tabled --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, that dirty old Globe!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"-- they in fact were given copies of the report.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Globe will not observe release dates."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"All I say, all I say -- well, so I understand, so I read --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is a novice in politics."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Yes, but the point that I want to make --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The terrible Globe and Mail!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"-- is that with that particular understanding, copies of the reports, which I will table later this afternoon, were made available --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"To whom?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"To whom?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"To anyone who requested them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Anyone who requested them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Didn’t the minister’s executive assistant hand them to representatives of the two papers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We requested them in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, whose question am I answering at the moment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"Does the minister know the question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"The point I want to get across is that that is exactly what happened; and if there are any members of the House who feel affronted by this, I apologize. I did that -- quite frankly, that’s exactly what I did on Friday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Somebody asked and the minister gave them to them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"This was the understanding. Now, as a matter of principle, the legislation does not preclude the release of reports before they are tabled in the House; so when you put it into that context, there has been nothing done to violate any statute --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Shame on you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"-- or any particular rule or regulation. In fact, up to this time there are two copies of reports which were released and one of which is not yet tabled."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, could the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is this a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, a supplementary: Could the Attorney General explain why his executive assistant sought out representatives just of the Star and of the Globe and gave them copies and ignored everyone else? Are those the only two news media that can be trusted in this province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the question is not properly worded because my executive assistant sought out no one for copies of the reports. The representations with respect to having these reports were made to him by representatives of the media so that they could adequately report them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of further supplementary, could the Attorney General tell us how long ago the executive assistant was sought out, who sought him out, and whether, when the decision was made to release copies of these documents to these representatives, why the executive assistant did not seek out representatives, say, of The Canadian Press, of the Ottawa newspapers, the Hamilton newspapers, the Windsor newspapers, the radio stations, the television stations?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"Would that have made it all right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Or least of all, to seek out members of the Legislature who had expressed more than a passing interest in these reports?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The government may even have to hold a press conference."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, certainly on the basis of the experience, under these circumstances, the hon. member can be assured that different procedures will be followed in the future and we will, in fact, invite everyone to what is referred to as a “lock up,” when everyone will have access to them.",
"I am sorry if there has been any misunderstanding, either among members of the House or among members of the gallery. It was certainly unintentional on my part and I was acting in what I thought was the best interests of the public in order to have this type of reporting with respect to a very important matter. And, quite frankly, I have no other explanation to give. Really.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. It would seem to me --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"I have a supplementary remark, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. I would like --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. The Speaker would like to make a remark at this point. It would seem to me that the point of privilege as raised by the hon, member for Downsview, by virtue of a debate that has taken place, has now been clarified and there will be no further necessity on the part of the Speaker to make any other comments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"You should chop off the Attorney General’s head."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I will now permit further supplementaries."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact that the Attorney General, in replying to our leader’s remarks, mentioned public hearings, would the Attorney General now tell this House what procedure he is prepared to set up for public hearings on this particularly urgent matter?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, at the time of tabling the report I will, in fact, share with the House some initial statements with respect to this. Certainly I want a very wide discussion of this matter before we proceed, and indeed would welcome any suggestions from the hon. member to ensure that we, in fact, are covering all possible groups or individuals who may want to make some comments insofar as the follow-up on these reports is concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: On that I wonder what we mean by wide publication and hearings. What length of time does the Attorney General consider would be adequate to come to some conclusions in this matter?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"I think it would be difficult to specify certain periods. I would want to be satisfied, Mr. Speaker, that there was sufficient time to allow all who were obviously interested in this matter to express views with respect to it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for York Centre have further questions? The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"It will still be in in time for the election."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Minister of Education having appeared in the House -- well, let me ask a question of one of his colleagues while he chats with the Premier. Could I ask a question of the Minister of Natural Resources? Why will his ministry not release the most recent annual statistical report on the mineral production of Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this question has never been asked of me, and we will release the information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, then he is countermanding what we have specifically been told twice by the mineral resources branch of his ministry -- that the report is available, but was not to be released publicly. It has been available for some time and printed for some time, I gather."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think this change came about three years ago when Management Board in an austerity move to cut down the amount of material that was put in the annual report --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We have noticed. It has been cut down. To eliminate the minister’s picture perhaps."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"-- chose to pull this information out, and to narrow down and put a little more efficiency in the report. But this information has always been made available to the public on request."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Fine. Well, will the minister table this document in the House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
WITHDRAWAL OF TEACHERS’ SERVICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Education. Could he advise us in any way how the teachers are responding to his ultimatum? If, for reasons of negotiation, he wants to qualify that, can he table in the House the document which he signed with the chairman of the York county board as a basis for arbitration?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to. If the hon. member wishes to have it tabled afterwards, I will table it at the appropriate time. I can send him a copy if he would like it. It’s a public document. It was given to the press yesterday afternoon, and we are now waiting, although the teachers have said that they will not accept it. I gave a 9 o’clock deadline and I’m waiting for an answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"The public has a right to know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Yes. The hon. member sort of smiles when I mention it is a public document."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"I laughed out aloud."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I have always held that the public should be informed on these things. That’s precisely why this document was made public."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Before the House, Mr. Speaker?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this really is not --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"On Sunday when we were working on it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"-- a document of this House. This is a proposal by the Minister of Education to two parties who are engaged in a bargaining dispute. I think I would be very happy to table it in the House, but for the hon, member to suggest that it should have been tabled in this House before it was made public is preposterous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
TENDERS FOR CIVIL SERVICE INSURANCE PACKAGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Could I ask the Chairman of the Management Board whether he is recommending to the London Life consortium of companies which hold the fringe benefit package for the civil servants of Ontario that that consortium be broken up at the point of next tender and that free and open tenders be made available for all insurance companies which choose?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t object to that suggestion. As a matter of fact, I think that was the case the last time the package was tendered. It just so happened that the consortium was made up of the companies that are. Those people had an opportunity to tender too. As a matter of fact, the method of tendering is discussed by the commission and by the members of the CSAO; so I have no hesitation in saying that I’ll consider that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, there is a difference between considering it and accepting it. Will the minister put that fringe benefit package out to open tender where any one member of the consortium may tender rather than the consortium as a whole?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Yes, I will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you. I’m having difficulty asking questions, because when I turned around I thought the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) was here. He is not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Yes, he is here. He’s coming in."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
OHC BUDGET
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Sorry. Could I ask the Minister of Housing a question first? In the light of his vigorous housing initiatives, why has the revised budget estimate for this year for the Ontario Housing Corp. been dropped by $20 million in the most recent publication of Ontario finances?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I’ll have to look into that question and give the hon. member an answer as quickly as possible."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
DAY NURSERIES ACT REGULATIONS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you. I have one final question of the Minister of Community and Social Services. When will he provide the regulations under Bill 160 -- the provision of day care -- which would govern co-operative and non-profit day care in the Province of Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, those regulations should be in force this month. They’ve all been approved. They will be gazetted, I would hope, this month, so they should be in force this month."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"And they will take effect when? At the moment they are proclaimed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Yes, I believe so, Mr. Speaker, on the date they are proclaimed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"If not, the hon. Minister of Energy has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF PUBLIC WORKS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on Thursday last I was asked certain questions by the member for Ottawa Centre pertaining to the Arnprior dam. He suggested that I was not making certain information available. I’m pleased to table today --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"Did the minister change his mind?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"-- letters which have been written to the member for Ottawa Centre by the vice-chairman of the then Hydro-Electric Power Commission, dated Jan. 31, 1974, Nov. 19, 1973 and Dec. 20, 1973; together with certain material which was supplied to the member under date of Jan. 31; a letter from the chairman of the then commission to me, dated Aug. 23, 1973; certain documents of the commission, a study of the generation projects division dated May, 1972, a report of the study on the impact on the community dated March, 1972, and a report entitled “Geotechnical Feasibility Studies” dated January, 1972. All these reports have been provided to the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Now the hon. member has to read them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"They are tabled in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Natural Resources also has the answer to a question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary? All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I appreciate all the information which I have had from Mr. Evans and Mr. Gathercole and other people in the ministry concerning the Arnprior dam. The unfortunate thing was, and the reason I raised the question in the Legislature, Mr. Speaker, none of that information, in fact, provided a satisfactory explanation for the initial decision to construct the dam.",
"That is why I asked last week in the Legislature if the minister would table the engineering feasibility study which was another document in that series which included community impact, environment and geotechnical feasibility studies. Those three studies have been made available but the minister last week said he would not make the engineering feasibility study available, nor would he make available information prepared by the geologists who reported to Hydro on the project at the start.",
"In view of the openness he is now displaying, would he undertake to table in the Legislature the engineering feasibility study and the geological material provided to Hydro in order that we can have as complete a record as possible?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think the information which has been provided is more than sufficient."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Could the minister explain how the information provided can be deemed to be satisfactory when the basic engineering feasibility data have not yet been tabled?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, if even I could explain that to the member’s satisfaction."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Would the minister explain why the ministry is being so defensive as to deny information after seeking for a while to provide information about this project? What is it that the government is trying to cover up with this project?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"The feasibility study said “don’t build it.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this party and this government tries to cover up nothing. We are not going to get down and play cheap little games like the member has been playing for the last several weeks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: What is it about this engineering feasibility study which has the minister so frightened? Why can it not be made a public document so we can see the basis on which the decision was arrived at? Why does the minister have to hide this particular study? Why is it so central?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)",
"text": [
"The member is so concerned about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have provided all kinds of information to the member. He doesn’t want it. He doesn’t believe it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He has read it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"He continually quotes it out of context and plays some sort of little game which we are not about to play.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"If the minister has nothing to hide why hide it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"A supplementary to the minister: Did the feasibility study recommend against building the dam?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It didn’t? Will he table it so we can come to our conclusions on that point?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: The minister states that I have been quoting material out of context. I think that is a serious charge to make in the Legislature.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The member’s colleague --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"They do it all the time over there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"He is laughing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"Give us another funny one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Would the minister kindly cite where or how he feels I have been quoting material out of context? Would he explain why Hydro is refusing to provide information because it says we might not be able to understand it? Does he consider that is a justifiable reason for refusing information to this Legislature?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"The expert on everything."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Perhaps the member could explain if Hydro was referring to him or to others; or just him in particular?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I would like you to take into consideration the refusal of the Minister of Energy to provide the document legitimizing a project of $78 million -- all of which is public money -- by a Crown corporation, allegedly accountable to this House? I say, Mr. Speaker, that the minister cannot refuse to table that kind of study. It must be tabled in this House. It is part of his ministerial responsibility. If he thumbs his nose at us on this, he thumbs his nose at everything. It should be made a public document so that the questions can be asked. Who does he think he is, other than Darcy McKeough?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I hardly think that is a question, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It was a point of privilege to the Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"On the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"Oh, sit down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I would just add that for all the information provided --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"There is no information by Hydro to justify this dam --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"This is a misuse of the question period."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"-- apart from the political desirability of electing the member for Renfrew South."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. This is a misuse of the question period. I will undertake to investigate the point of privilege raised by the hon. member for Scarborough West. I will look into the matter. I shall be pleased to look into the matter but this is developing into a debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The hon. member is underprivileged."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"The Minister of Energy is a provocative kind of fellow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have new questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, I didn’t ask a question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West is quite correct.",
"The hon. Minister of Natural Resources has the answer to a question previously asked."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
WEEKEND ROAD MAINTENANCE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in reply to a question asked of me by the hon. member for Thunder Bay concerning the Gull Bay-Armstrong road which was apparently not ploughed one weekend; I might point out to him that we contract the maintenance of that particular road with the Ministry of Transportation and Communications who in turn sublet it to a local contractor. On the particular weekend that he refers to, the operator was off duty on the Saturday, but following my investigation he was back up there on Sunday and the road was ploughed on Monday. I might say we have already made arrangements for next year’s operation, where we will shorten the contract length on that particular road and the operators will be on a seven-day basis."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Is the minister aware that in awarding the sub-contracts it is usually done on a 40-hour-week basis and they get their time in on a Monday-to-Friday basis, which means that there is no maintenance on Saturday and Sunday when a lot of the traffic is in and out of remote communities such as Armstrong? When he is negotiating his new contract will he see that all times during the week will be covered for road maintenance?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I just mentioned in the latter part of my reply to the member that the contracts for next year would be on a seven-day basis, so they will be operating right around the clock."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York-Forest Hill."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
ONTARIO BUILDING CODE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"To the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: How does he intend to process this voluminous tome, draft of the Ontario Building Code; when does he intend to do it, and what’s more to the point, when does he intend to table any legislation on this very vital subject?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I intend this session to file the legislation under which the code -- which is really regulations under the legislation -- will apply. I filed those regulations back, I believe, in December, Mr. Speaker, to give an opportunity to those many communities and municipalities and individuals who exhibited an interest in the contents from a technical sense and I undertake to file the legislation and introduce a bill this session in this House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Does the minister not intend to have some kind of public forum, a standing committee or another committee, to consider the mass of detail and the technical details in this draft?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clements",
"text": [
"That is a possibility, Mr. Speaker. May I point out that legislation was not tendered in December at the time that I tabled the regulations which the hon. member has in his hand, because at that time there were intense negotiations being conducted in Ottawa with the federal government on the part of two or three associations insofar as a warranty or a house guarantee was concerned, and if the federal government was going to proceed by implementing legislation providing for warranties and guarantees on residential housing, then that would have altered our position on the ultimate legislation which I have referred to today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact there are apparently going to be amendments, as I understand it from consulting with the ministry, how will those be brought forward to ensure that they are in fact incorporated? I’m talking now about such things as asbestos liners for chimneys and about the code for the handicapped. Will that be brought forward as a separate and supplementary item, or how will we be assured it is there when the time comes?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think the proper procedure with legislation of this nature would be to introduce the bill and give those interested parties, including many members of this House who have indicated an interest in certain technical aspects of the bill, including the hon. member for St. George, the communities, the building inspectors, the various technical and professional associations, an opportunity to study it in the light of the legislation. Then I would think that the place where it should be debated would probably be a standing committee of the House, in order that we can have the advantage of listening to these particular interest groups, and at that time the parts of the legislation or the regulations dealing with ramps and this sort of thing would well form the subject matter of that discussion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
PHYSIOTHERAPISTS’ FEES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Health: In view of the very large increases that he has given to the physicians and to everybody who works for his ministry since 1966, why does his ministry flatly refuse to give any raise to the physiotherapists and has held their pay at the same level for the last nine years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for High Park appears to be applying his interest in preventive medicine and has switched “an apple a day” for “a question a day,” which seems to be having even a greater effect upon my constitution."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The minister had better answer the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Does the minister have a carefully prepared preamble for every question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"And for every answer given."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"It’s nice to be able to count on something from the opposition -- and the one thing I can count on is a question a day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The minister would atrophy otherwise."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Well, not too long ago a study was made -- I believe by a consulting firm -- of the fees paid to physiotherapists. At that point in time it was agreed that the $3.50 rate -- which I believe is now the rate paid to them for a service rendered in their offices -- was in fact giving them an ample return on their time and investment on the basis upon which those services were currently given. In other words, they are not unique to one patient in the main. They usually are treating a number of patients simultaneously. Now, that is not to say that it went on to cover home treatments: but it did cover those granted in the offices."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park should be entitled to the first supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Thank you. How can the minister possibly justify his statement in view of the fact that his own department has raised the physiotherapy rates in hospitals during that time? The Workmen’s Compensation Board has raised the physiotherapy rates, and yet the minister has remained adamant that $3.50, which was an adequate fee in 1966, is still an adequate fee today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I simply said that it was not us who arrived at that conclusion, but a team of people hired to study it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It was the minister’s team."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Waterloo North."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Is there truth in the statement that has been made on numerous occasions that the Ministry of Health would like to see the private practice of physiotherapy eliminated, and have all this work done in hospitals? And is this why the ministry has refused to raise their rates for the past nine years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"No, I don’t think so, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Is it fair that because of the ministry’s refusal to raise the rates, physiotherapists are no longer able to make home visits?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I’m not going to say that I’m aware of that, because I’m not positively aware of it. But I would be glad to look at this. And in fact I’m sure very shortly well be looking at many of the monetary ramifications within the ministry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Monetary ramifications!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Perth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I learned that from the leader of the NDP."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
VEHICLES ON CONSIGNMENT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. Edighoffer (Perth)",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That kind of verbal flow --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer",
"text": [
"Does the Motor Vehicle Dealers Act allow the registrar to issue a directive prohibiting a dealer to place on his premises a vehicle on consignment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I am sorry -- a vehicle on consignment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"No, I am not aware whether he is permitted to attach a condition referring to that matter or not. I’m just not aware of it.",
""
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Will the minister find out and reply?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I will be glad to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Thunder Bay."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
HYDRO BOARD APPOINTMENTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Premier. Has the Premier been approached concerning the dissatisfaction over people residing in northwestern Ontario -- particularly the Ontario Municipal Electric Association -- because of the failure on behalf of the government to appoint somebody to the new Hydro board? And will he pay heed to their request to see that somebody from northwestern Ontario is represented on that board?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The 13th appointment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think there were some observations made on this. Of course, there is a gentleman there who I would certainly not say is from the northwest. There is a representative recommended by the OMEA from Sault Ste. Marie, if memory serves me correctly. But it was brought to my attention that the people in the northwest don’t really regard Sault Ste. Marie as being the north. That has been brought to my attention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wellington South is next."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
CORRECTIONAL CENTRE TRAINING
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Correctional Services. In the Speech from the Throne there was a statement made that inmates of the correctional centres were going to be employed in industries located in the institution in which they are resident. In light of the fact that they will be paid wages, what steps has the minister taken to ensure that these people will be given the opportunity to vote in provincial elections or federal elections as taxpayers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. T. Potter (Minister of Correctional Services)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, at the present time negotiations have been going on with one or two abattoirs in the province, as the hon. member is probably aware, asking for proposals for them -- in the case of one institution in particular in Guelph -- to operate the abattoir in Guelph as a private abattoir would be operated, employing residents of the institution and paying them the salaries they would be expected to pay in the private sector. They in turn would pay $20 a week, I think it is, room and board and the rest of the pay would be available to them to send home to keep their families.",
"It is still at the negotiating stage. We are hoping it will be successful because if it is we will be one of the first countries in the world to implement a scheme such as this. As you know, there have been programmes attempted in which token money was used, but this is the first time that this type of an enterprise has been considered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
RESALE OF HOME PROGRAMME HOUSES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Housing. Is the minister aware of a practice which is developing whereby HOME programme houses built not more than six months ago have been offered for sale on the free market at a price almost 100 per cent higher than the price at the time of the original sale?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the practice and if the hon. member would send me some details I would be pleased to look into it. It was my understanding that steps had been taken to remove the speculation from resale of Home Ownership units."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Will the minister make himself aware of the fact that certain realtors are approaching Ontario Housing Corp. with an eye to getting permission to sell these homes, sold originally for less than $20,000, for a list price of some $41,000 on the free market today, and that it requires some kind of chicanery behind the scenes in order to get the down payment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker. I would be glad to make myself aware of this, but if the hon. member has any details I would be pleased to hear from him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Waterloo North."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
PROVINCIAL PARK AT PAPINEAU LAKE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Natural Resources regarding his announcement of a provincial park on Papineau Lake which was made in January, I believe:",
"Does the minister have environmental studies of that area, in view of the facts that 90 per cent of this lake is already built up and that there is a water resources commission report of 1971 stating that the fecal streptococcus count now exceeds what it should in that particular lake?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have to answer yes to those questions. I would point out to the hon. member that the demand for recreational opportunity is growing at a rate of 10 per cent per year, particularly in southern Ontario, and my own ministry is having difficulty meeting this objective. We carry out some very close and sound and, I think, effective planning in locating just where these new parks should be.",
"At the present time we are dealing with the Papineau Lake situation and we are working on a master plan for the area. There will be public meetings held in that particular area where the public can be involved. We have met with the council and we are waiting comments from the local planning area, but in all this certainly we take into consideration the environmental aspects and the Ministry of the Environment does comment and we have their comments, which I will table."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could the minister make public his study of the environmental impact the park will have on this lake, in view of this adverse study that was done on the water quality in 1971? Has the condition changed in that time? This is what I am concerned about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have prepared a very in-depth report and an outline on the planning of this particular park to date. I would be glad to make this information available to the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The Chairman of the Management Board has an answer dealing with a previous question."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
NEGOTIATIONS ON BEHALF OF COMMUNITY COLLEGES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. I want to make a correction to an answer that I gave on Friday to the hon. member for Windsor West on the question as to whether certain items in dispute between the Council of Regents and the community colleges are bargainable. It is at this moment in the hands of Judge Little. I inadvertently said in the hands of Judge Anderson, and I would ask that the record be changed accordingly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time has now expired for oral questions.",
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I present to the House today three reports of the Ontario Law Reform Commission dealing with family law -- the Report on Family Property Law, the Report on Children and the Report on Family Courts. The receipt of these three reports, taken together with the earlier reports in the family law series, means that we are now in possession of sufficient Law Reform Commission material in this complex area of law to begin to consider appropriate legislative measures.",
"The Report on Family Property Law is a very significant document. It analyses the situation that has occurred in the law of Ontario and other common law jurisdictions in which the traditional legal concepts relating to the division of property between spouses need to be reconsidered in the light of the major social and economic changes of the 20th century. This report suggests that the legislative task before us not only requires changes in details of that law but also consideration of changes in some fundamental and well-entrenched legal principles.",
"I am very happy that Mr. Allan Leal, the chairman of the Ontario Law Reform Commission is in the House today, and indeed will be available to explain to those interested anything in connection with these reports.",
"Throughout the report, two things persist, Mr. Speaker. First, that the law should recognize the individual rights of husbands and wives during a marriage, even though they are united by the marriage contract. Secondly, if a marriage breaks down, the law should ensure the equality of the spouses in the distribution of marital property, unless the spouses agree to their own format of distribution.",
"The commission proposed a wide range of specific reforms dealing with testate and intestate succession, support obligations and agency relations, marriage contracts, separation agreements, joint bank accounts and a host of other matters where the common law developed and applied by our courts does not appear to have kept pace in all respects with the social reality increasingly perceived by many of our people.",
"Statute law that retains a common law base did not escape criticism and proposals for reform either. The commission discussed in this connection the Married Women’s Property Act, the Deserted Wives and Children’s Maintenance Act, the Devolution of Estates Act, the Dependants’ Relief Act, the Dower Act, the Matrimonial Causes Act and many others.",
"Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the most significant recommendation in this report, in addition to the recommendations for updating the historical approach of the common law, are the proposals for co-ownership of the matrimonial home and for equalization of property upon divorce or marriage breakdown. What is recommended is that each spouse would be entitled to occupy the home and to use its furnishings, regardless of the question of legal title; and in certain circumstances such as divorce, the equity of the family home would be shared between the spouses.",
"Another recommendation of the commission is the establishment of a new property system for married persons in Ontario. According to the commission’s recommendation, the value of all property acquired by either partner after the date of the marriage would be shared evenly between the spouses upon death, divorce or marriage breakdown.",
"Although there are some aspects of the Report on Family Property Law that are independent, I would stress that a great many of the proposed reforms appear interrelated and thus probably cannot be treated in isolation. The effects of the recommended changes will be profound and there’s no greater responsibility at this point than that borne by everyone who would be affected by these changes, and this means most adult persons in Ontario, who should be encouraged, as indeed the member for St. George indicated in her question, to come to grips with the implications and the consequences of this report, to discuss them and to respond to them.",
"Officials of my ministry will of course be giving the report intensive study. But at the same time as we are considering what steps are required to introduce the major conceptual and practical changes that are entailed in this report, I believe that I have a clear obligation to encourage a thorough public discussion of these matters.",
"A recent Gallup poll disclosed that 63 per cent of people in Canada favoured, as an abstract proposition, some sort of property sharing in divorce. We now have a concrete proposal, and I would like to have the views of the people of Ontario on it.",
"The second report of the Ontario Law Reform Commission tabled today is its report on the law of children. This is another area still largely governed by the common law and one that is also in need of meaningful change. One basic reform proposed by the commission is that the common law discrimination against illegitimate children should be purged from all aspects of the law in this province. The word “illegitimate” itself should no longer be used.",
"Almost a quarter of the report is devoted to detailing the way in which children born outside of marriage are, and have been for centuries, the victims of insidious and unfair rules whereby property and inheritance interests were consistently allowed to override the simple requirements of ordinary humanity towards children.",
"I must say that the case made by the commission for reform in this area is compelling and we will dedicate considerable effort to finding the appropriate legislative solutions.",
"In addition, Mr. Speaker, the report gives detailed attention to the law of adoption, the law dealing with children in need of care and protection, and the law of guardianship and custody of children. Here, the commission emphasizes that the only question that should be before the courts is what is in the best interests of the child. Regrettably, some areas of the statute and common law do not make it clear that what is in the best interests of a child is what the law should do. The commission recommends that in these areas changes should be made.",
"The third report of the Law Reform Commission tabled today is the report on the family courts. And there can be no doubt that Ontario now has the finest family court system in Canada, if not in the Commonwealth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"In the universe! Come on, Bob, don’t be diminutive."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"It is equally true, however, that there is much that can be done to strengthen this court that deals with so vital an aspect of our society as the family. All courts are important, but the family court is unique in the valuable contribution that it makes to the community in dealing with family relations.",
"The basic reform proposal in this report is that there should be a single court in which all family law matters are dealt with. At present, family law jurisdiction is exercised in the Supreme Court, the county court and the surrogate court, as well as in the family division of the provincial court. The reasons for this are partly historical and traditional and partly constitutional.",
"The proposal of the Law Reform Commission for a single family court with integrated jurisdiction will, along with the other recommendations of the commission, receive very careful study and consideration by officials of my ministry and, I hope, by members of the profession and, indeed, the public as well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Get the legislation ready."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"And so, Mr. Speaker, all in all, the Ontario Law Reform Commission has given the government and the people of Ontario a substantial amount of sophisticated and professional analysis in these three reports. I believe that from these reports and the public discussions they will no doubt engender we will be able to move toward a new and better system of family law that will, we hope, be recognized as the finest in the world. Indeed, no government could have a higher goal than this.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Do they do that compulsively?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have been given a report by the Minister of Education which has associated with it a proposal to bring to a conclusion the dispute between the York County Board of Education and District 11 of the OSSTF."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of section 5 of the Expropriations Act, being the Revised Statutes of Ontario 1970, chapter 154, I lay before the assembly a copy of the order of the Lieutenant Governor in Council dated Jan. 9, 1974, made under subsection (3) of the said section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Is that in relation to Pickering or somewhere else?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Is that Cedarwood?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Cedarwood."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s been scrubbed, hasn’t it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"It has to be tabled before the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a copy of the report of the joint study group on the investment policies of the Ontario Municipal Employees’ Retirement System. Copies of the report are being distributed to members of the House and representatives of organizations and groups participating in OMERS. On behalf of the Treasurer (Mr. White), I would like to thank the members of the study group for their work and invite public comments which will assist him and the OMERS board in reviewing it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills.",
"The hon. member for York-Forest Hill."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
PROTECTION OF HOUSE BUYERS ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Long needed. Long needed. About time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Good bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this is not a very dramatic title for a bill which I think is long overdue. I think the law of caveat emptor should be relegated to the scrapheap because it’s outlived its usefulness.",
"This bill will provide for house buyers the protection which they have when they buy the simplest electrical device or the simplest appliance today. It sets up a commission and requires that houses should be built in accordance with minimum standards of the Ontario Building Code, and the minister today said he was waiting for the federal minister to bring in such a bill. This is my conception of what the bill should be.",
"It will require that a house be inspected at least four times during the course of construction. It will protect buyers from hidden defects, latent defects, for a period of five years, and from patent defects, obvious defects, for a period of one year. It will require the vendor to list all the defects on the agreement of purchase and sale of a house. It will provide for grievances to be heard by the commission and the commissioner which this bill purports to set up and it will provide for an insurance fund into which all builders must contribute in the event that a builder may not be able to compensate the house owner, such as in the case of bankruptcy. I commend this bill to the members of the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day, I want to present a petition to the government of Ontario signed in the past --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. I thought the hon. member had a bill to introduce. I should perhaps determine for certain that there are no further bills to be introduced. Are there any other bills to be introduced? If not, the hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I present this petition, signed in the past two days only by 7,309 voters of York county who are requesting that the Government of Ontario set up a trusteeship in York county to get the schools into full operation. I hope the minister will indicate how many more voters’ signatures he will need to satisfy him that this is the action the people want to resolve the impasse. This petition is not, in any sense, to be considered a condemnation of the trustees of York but rather as the best solution now available to get the schools into operation forthwith."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
THRONE SPEECH DEBATE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I shall try to be entirely to the point this afternoon.",
"I begin, sir, along with everyone else in the House, in expressing personal pleasure at your presence, your continued presence in the chair. Not that one -- well, one did doubt it for a moment or two, perhaps, at one point -- but you are back, you are there; and you have displayed equanimity, joviality and impartiality on almost every instance that I can recall -- save one, and that is when you disagreed with me. In all such circumstances, sir, we are glad to see you back and wish you long tenure -- at least until the life of this parliament is over.",
"I want to deal very briefly, Mr. Speaker, with the York county dispute, simply because it is appropriate that it be done right now when things are moving toward a clear crisis. I suppose some would characterize the present situation as a crisis. But we are moving to evident breakdown and a solution which may be entirely unpalatable.",
"I have looked at the document which the minister has tabled. Would that he had made some kind of legitimate recommendation to both parties some considerable time ago. It would have carried more weight than it does at the 11th hour and it would have carried more weight than it does when it comes in the form of an ultimatum.",
"I can understand why the teachers respond as they do. They have been bargaining with a group that has bargained in bad faith from the outset; and then suddenly the minister has chosen to take sides. That is what really has happened now in the York county dispute; the minister has taken sides. He has taken sides with the board against the teachers.",
"There is a very neat clause in section 11 in the tentative proposal put to them both that will obviously inspire enormous apprehension in the minds of the teachers. Section 11 says: “The board of arbitration shall remain seized of and may deal with all matters in dispute under paragraph one between the parties until a final and binding agreement is in effect between the parties.” Well, the use of the word “may” leaves it open to the board of arbitration to do what boards of arbitration frequently do, which is to refuse to accept certain non-monetary items and certain working conditions as negotiable, contractual clauses. And the whole point of the teachers in York county -- what they have rested their case on from the outset -- is not a matter of salaries but is a matter of working conditions; primarily pupil-teacher ratio and class size. And what this document says to the teachers is very simply, “we will not guarantee that an arbitration board will rule on class size or pupil-teacher ratio.” It may if it wishes to. It may abandon it if it wishes to. The document, therefore, has a fatal Achilles’ heel in the minds of the teachers. And I can understand why they will now feel betrayed by the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells); just as they have felt betrayed by the board.",
"Now this caucus, Mr. Speaker, is not to play the parliamentary niceties game of looking on the board with charity and talking about whether or not they have been responsible. That York county board is so irresponsible it deserves to be turfed out; or all of the members who have been intransigent deserve to be turfed out in a way that they wouldn’t even save their deposit in a federal or so-called provincial election campaign.",
"I have never seen a board argue in such bad faith from day one. That board, when it entered negotiations, didn’t want to recognize the York county OSSTF as a bargaining agent. Now, I mean how do you start negotiations on that basis and expect to induce any kind of free and open and supportive collective bargaining atmosphere? And frankly, when the member from York Centre says that he wants the board taken into trusteeship, but that that shouldn’t reflect on the capacities of the board -- well, that is mental gymnastics."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"The voters will do that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, I hope the voters do do that. As a matter of fact, I think the voters feel very strongly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"They are going to decide, providing there is an election."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, the member doesn’t have to provide an election."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"It is not up to the leader of the NDP to sit in judgement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"For people who believe so strongly in local autonomy, the Liberals play fast and loose with it.",
"The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that there is no reason in the world why the Minister of Education could not arrange to do the bargaining by way of legislation if he needs it in the case of the teachers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"He doesn’t need it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Allow the board to continue. The voters will deal with the board, if they so choose at the election. That is up to the voters, I agree.",
"I am not so interested in the formal application of trusteeship. That is a precedent that worries me almost as much as compulsory arbitration worries the rest of us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"They have used it before."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But in fact that is what it looks as though we are headed for. In this case, the Minister of Education didn’t even withdraw the grants. At least in the Windsor board last year they withdrew the grants, which was a considerable incentive to settlement.",
"What you see here is a carefully calculated rhythm towards the guillotine falling tomorrow or the next day. That’s what’s the strategy now is. That’s what emerges, because the board bargained in bad faith, and the minister knows it. The minister has confided as much in confidence to those who have talked with him privately.",
"I think -- let me put it this way -- that the Minister of Education is as fed to the teeth with the behaviour of the York county board as is any member who has had anything to do with them or any member of the public who has been able to witness it.",
"What you’ve got is bad faith bargaining from the outset, intractability on working conditions; refusal of the minister to make a recommendation until the 11th hour, and then with a very severe deadline threat hanging over it; refusal of the minister to appropriate the negotiating process from the board, settle on an agreement and then reinstate the board.",
"The teachers say, and the teachers are right, how do you arbitrate human relationships? How are we ever going to resolve the anathema which has developed between the board and the teachers if they are forced to compulsory arbitration? How is that going to handle it? How are those teachers going to be forced back to work? How are you going to resolve the antagonism between the teachers and the director of education in York county under such circumstances?",
"It may serve the government to invite confrontation on this instance in order to pave the road for Bill 275, but this is a very carefully manipulated process, Mr. Speaker. No one should engage in the naivety and self-delusion that I often engage in, thinking that maybe the Tories really don’t want to force the issue. Well, I think now they do.",
"I think the Premier (Mr. Davis) in his incessant repetition today about the five weeks indicates that they had their time parameter. Then they could go to the province and say, “You see the axe had to fall in York county and that’s why it has to fall in Bill 275.”",
"What does that mean for collective bargaining for the teachers in Ontario? What that means is very simple. Everything will go to compulsory arbitration hereafter, and the relationships, the human relationships, the teaching relationships, the personal relations between teachers and board in one board after another across this province will be impaired.",
"I appeal to the minister. I know he is meeting now with the Premier. He is meeting with the member for York North (Mr. W. Hodgson). He will doubtless be meeting with others during the day. I appeal to him and to the cabinet to draw back from the precipice, to take those negotiations over and settle with the teachers and by their example to demonstrate to the York county board that collective bargaining can work, if it is followed in good faith and then left to the electors of York county to deal with those trustees in the next campaign.",
"That’s the way to do it. But not to bring in compulsory arbitration, not to resort to those extremes, because the damage that is done to the system isn’t immediately apparent, but it is evident to everyone.",
"It’s done to kids; it’s done to teachers. Who knows which of the teachers will return or why? I haven’t even discussed with my colleagues from Lakeshore and Riverdale the legal niceties, the mind-boggling legal niceties of how those who resigned will be reinstated, whether it will be retroactive, whether the resignations will again be delayed by legislation. The complexities are almost beyond handling. It needn’t come to this; it simply needn’t come to this.",
"Mr. Speaker, I want to deal with the Throne Speech, but not at length in terms of every one of its clauses. I want to deal with it in the context of one paragraph arid one paragraph alone, which seems to me to be central to the Throne Speech and seems to all my NDP colleagues to be central to the Throne Speech -- so central that I don’t have it in front of me. If somebody has a copy of the Throne Speech I wouldn’t mind one.",
"It’s the clause which deals with inflation, the one clause which deals with inflation. It says: “While my government will employ all practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation, nevertheless it bears repeating that the problem can only be dealt with in a national context with all governments co-operating.” That one paragraph is the greatest single deficiency in a Throne Speech distinguished for its mediocrity. That one paragraph is a kind of commentary on the government of William Davis over the last three years. As I think I shall try to show, and as others of my colleagues shall try to show as this Throne Debate continues, the William Davis years, in terms of that single issue which most preoccupies public attention, were years of speculation, inflation, and profiteering; that the public burned while the William Davis cabinet fiddled; that never has a cabinet so large done so little on an issue so great -- and indeed that may be true in other areas but extremely pronounced in this one -- that no other province in this country has so betrayed the trust of its citizens in dealing with basic matters of the cost of living, matters which affect the daily lives of the people of Ontario; and that ultimately, Mr. Speaker, it is our conviction in this caucus that that’s what will bring the government down.",
"It’s not going to be the transgression, so it’s called, and it’s not going to be the gross indiscretions, and it’s not going to be the so-called scandals and it’s not even going to be the inadequacy or incompetence of individual ministers, whomever they may be; but it is the refusal of the government to deal with those matters which are absolutely central to the way in which people live their lives. And the evidence mounts, the documentation accumulates and it is now clear that those are the grounds on which the electoral outcome in this province will be settled 18 months hence.",
"The Tories have taken to mind the old Churchillian maxim that they have resolved to be irresolute. They start with inertia in the area of cost of living and they end with paralysis. That’s the history of governmental mobility in this field; and it is most unfortunate that that’s the case because on everyone’s lips is the question of the cost of living.",
"Now Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. R. F. Nixon) raised matters pertaining to housing. I want to do the same but in a slightly different context. I want to tell you about the William Davis years, Mr. Speaker, because I want to put most of my remarks in the specific dimensions, the specific boundaries of the period during which the present Premier has been the incumbent chief minister. And I want to steal something from my colleague from Ottawa Centre, if he’ll forgive me -- I presume if I thieve from him it’s less offensive than when other parties do -- and give you a chronicle in the housing field of what has happened in a number of areas of Ontario, but starting first with Toronto.",
"Well, in March of 1971, which seems to be a reasonable date to begin with since the Premier was then Premier, the average Toronto house sale price was $29,627. One year later it was $31,357. When the Comay task force was set up it had already jumped to $34,137; that was in November of 1972. When the Throne Speech came down last year it had jumped to $34,718. When the present Attorney General (Mr. Welch) was appointed Minister of Housing, it had leaped to $44,022 on the average; and when the current Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) inherited the portfolio, it had jumped to $46,210.",
"Within the life of the premiership of William Davis -- I guess just three years now -- the housing increase in the city of Toronto has been 56 per cent. Now that may be an achievement which some premiers would cherish; others would shudder were they to realize it.",
"Let me tell you something else about what’s happening in the Metro Toronto area, Mr. Speaker, as the research department of this caucus had analysed the figures. A most extraordinary acceleration of the inflationary trends in every area has occurred in the central portion of the Premier’s stewardship. He became Premier in March; he stopped Spadina somewhere along the way; he set himself for an election in October, 1971 -- it was October, 1971?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I have blocked it all out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"How could the member forget?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I certainly do, and the sooner I forget the better. Then he won a fairly considerable mandate, looking at the way in which the Tory hordes engulf this legislative chamber."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"They slop over to this side."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Slopping over is not as dignified a phrase, although perhaps a more descriptive one.",
"Mr. Speaker, one would assume that by the years 1972 and 1973 in particular, the policies introduced and undertaken by the Premier of Ontario would begin to be felt. Well, they certainly have; they certainly have.",
"In January, 1973, 65.3 per cent of the houses in Metropolitan Toronto sold for less than $35,000; almost two-thirds of all house sales were for less than $35,000. By December, 1973 -- mark this, at the end of the same year -- only 27 per cent of all housing transactions in Metropolitan Toronto involved amounts less than $35,000. In fact, only 14.7 per cent of houses sold sold for less than $30,000.",
"If one takes the median family income in this area which is now roughly $12,000 a year, and if one assumes what most reasonable housing economists assume, that one shouldn’t spend more than 25 per cent of gross income for carrying costs, it means, Mr. Speaker, that 73 per cent of those who might purchase homes are now excluded from purchasing them.",
"The great bulk of people who earn $12,000 a year and under, that is somewhere around 70 per cent now of total income figures -- I will give them more specifically later on -- are excluded from the housing market. In a period of two short years the Premier has achieved what few men are able to achieve -- the exclusion of two-thirds of the people of the Province of Ontario from ever being able to own or carry a house in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Shame!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s quite something. Let me give you another figure which is perhaps equally interesting. In January, 1973, only seven per cent of the sales in Metropolitan Toronto involved homes of over $50,000. In December, 1973, 28.5 per cent of the sales in Metro involved houses over $50,000, and the houses selling in the over $50,000 category constitute by far the largest percentage of house transactions taking place in the Province of Ontario. Now, will the Premier tell me how the people of this province can afford homes upwards of $50,000?",
"Someone in the NDP research department did something which I thought was really quite fascinating. We went to TEELA. Members all know something about TEELA. I don’t know what the letters stand for but it is a private outfit with close connections with the Revenue ministry -- an outfit the minister will soon be getting rid of I understand -- which notates every real estate transaction, computerizes them and has them available on small cards. We went through the pattern of acceleration in house costs for a representative number of residences in the Metro Toronto area; residences that were all initially considered to be low income and lower-middle income ownership potential. Let me tell the House what we found.",
"In the borough of York, in the 280 block of Caledonia Rd. -- my colleague from York South knows it well -- we both knocked on doors up and down Caledonia Rd. In 1965, a house sold for $12,600; in February, 1973, $28,800; estimated value in February, 1974, $38,300. No. 525 Dune St., just northwest of High Park, in the west end of the city -- 1965, $21,800; May, 1973, $42,400; February, 1974, $50,500. No. 5 Clinton St. in Toronto -- you may know, Mr. Speaker, that that lies between Bathurst and Dufferin, the old stamping grounds for some of us who inhabit these legislative benches --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"The hon. member springs from there too, eh?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"-- in 1963, just 10 years ago, the price on the home -- sorry, this was a number on Clinton St.; I have the actual numbers, but I am not sure how the homeowners would feel if photographs were being taken. I will have to think about that. At any rate, it’s a very low odd number on Clinton St. -- 1963, $11,700; March, 1973 $28,250; estimated value in February, 1974, $36,700.",
"On Markham St., Toronto, one block west of Bathurst. Markham St. -- some of us grew up on Markham St.; the Duddy Kravitzes of this world grew up on Markham St."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"Your memory is good, Mordechai."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that’s not me. That’s the member for York-Forest Hill. What makes Philip run?",
"In 1964, the price of this home on the 400 block of Markham St. was $15,900; May, 1973, $43,100; in February, 1974, it could change hands for an estimated $51,400."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Nothing on Markham St. can be worth that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Can be worth that? Well, as a matter of fact, I wandered down Markham St. to Ed’s Markham St. “Village” just a couple of weekends ago, and it struck me that obviously the whole character is changing. Now you can get a house for --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"That’s north Markham St."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s north Markham St.",
"No. 10 Metcalfe St. -- now mark this; this is in Don Vale, in that area which we assumed would be preserved for low- and middle-income earners. In 1965 the house sold for $7,500 -- again, it is a very low number on Metcalfe -- in 1966 for $9,203; in November, 1972, for $31,500; in March, 1973, for $61,000 -- these are actual sales and estimated value in February, 1974, was $79,200."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"What a government!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Low-income, middle-income housing!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"I tell you, that’s even more than for chicken."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, even the member for Huron-Bruce would have to sell two or three turkeys for that kind of down payment, Mr. Speaker.",
"No. 32 Strathcona Ave. in the riding of my colleague from Riverdale; he can tell you it’s part of a riding that should be low- and middle-income housing -- in 1964 the house -- again a number very low on Strathcona, on the even side of the street -- sold for $11,000; May, 1972, $26,900; March, 1973, just a small jump, relatively speaking, $29,900. It is now estimated for sale at $38,800.",
"In East York, so that no borough is exempt, in the 400 block in East York -- 1964, $25,500; May, 1972, $42,000; May, 1973, $50,000 -- these are sales -- February, 1974, estimated value, $60,000.",
"Then we come to Scarborough, the provincial riding of Scarborough Centre, the federal riding of Scarborough West, and a home on Brenda Cres., in the area of the 100 block -- again it’s a reasonable lower-middle-income area. In 1963 the house sold for $14,500; 1967, $18,000; March, 1973, $36,300; February, 1974, $47,100.",
"Willowdale, North York, between Bayview and Yonge, north of Sheppard, one of the lower middle-income groups in that part of Metro: in 1965 the house was valued at $15,700; in 1966 it sold for $18,500 and in 1967 for $21,900. Then we move into the William Davis period again -- April, 1973, $40,000; February, 1974, $50,000.",
"I see the chagrin on the face of the Minister of Energy so I will talk about the Darcy McKeough era. I don’t want him to feel neglected."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"I was Minister of Housing before that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No. 145 Niagara St. -- remember that property, because I want to bear reference to it at the end -- in 1966 it sold for $9,500; January, 1973, $21,000; May, 1973, $25,600; February, 1974, $30,500.",
"And one last house, on Laurier Ave., a low number on Laurier, north of Wellesley and east of Parliament, again in what would seem to be the eventual preserve of lower middle class housing -- lower middle income housing is a much more appropriate way of putting it -- 1964, $9,700; 1967, $15,400; in the Davis-McKeough regime in May, 1973, $63,500 and estimated in February, 1974 at $75,700.",
"Mr. Speaker, the acceleration, the unbelievable increase in the cost of housing and the cost of land, has occurred right at the heart of this Premier’s incumbency, right at the heart of this government, of the government now in power, over the last two years. That’s when all hell has broken loose. That’s when everything is out of sight.",
"I think I must have read the accounting of a dozen of them. In all of these homes only one, Mr. Speaker, can any longer be considered available for low-income housing. And that’s 145 Niagara St. at $30,500. Before anybody rushes out to purchase it, let me tell you that it lies downwind of Toronto Refineries and Smelters Ltd. And that’s why it’s still $30,000. But everything else is not.",
"I think this random cross-section sampling means very simply and very accurately that all of the housing in the 1960’s that we assumed would be available for low-income families and for middle-income families is now completely out of range, courtesy this government in the last three years.",
"Let me tell you something more about what I choose to call the William Davis years or the era of this cabinet, this incumbency. In the city of Hamilton, the increase in the cost of housing from 1967 to 1972 was 17.4 per cent. In the last two years, Mr. Speaker, it has jumped by another 22.5 per cent. In the city of Ottawa from 1969 to 1972 the increase was 18.4 per cent. In the last two years it has jumped another 23.5 per cent. In the city of Kitchener from 1969 to 1972 the increase was only 2.5 per cent. In the last two years, really in 18 months, it has jumped by 28 per cent. In the city of Windsor the increase from 1969 to 1972 was 7.7 per cent. In the last two years it has jumped by 27.2 per cent. In London from 1969 to 1972 it was only about 20 per cent. In the last 18 months to two years it has jumped to 29 per cent.",
"The housing market has collapsed or skyrocketed, however one wishes to view it, in the Province of Ontario, firmly within this regime, firmly within the period where we have played games with housing, where the Tories have appointed one minister after another who’ve seen it more as a sinecure than as a stewardship. This has happened in every single community that we scrupulously looked at, Mr. Speaker.",
"In Peterborough the price of a new home has jumped from $26,000 to $32,000, a 23 per cent increase. In Stratford from $22,600 in the spring of 1973 to $28,000 in September.",
"In July, 1973, the price of a new three-bedroom bungalow in Thunder Bay was $32,500, $10,000 more than similar accommodation in Winnipeg. A vacant lot with a 50-foot frontage in Thunder Bay sells for $12,000. Headway Corp. is the prime developer. Incidentally, Headway Corp. for the first nine months of 1973, over a similar period in 1972, had an increase in profit of 126 per cent.",
"For the Niagara region housing is going up in identical fashion and the same in Guelph and the same in Brantford.",
"In Kitchener-Waterloo, listen to what has happened to lot prices. In 1963 a 50-foot serviced lot cost $3,500. In 1968 the same lot sold for $5,750. In 1973 the same lot sold for $11,000.",
"You know, Mr. Speaker, one can only stand for so much of that kind of thing. Everything has gone out of control in the last 18 months and there’s not a single policy initiative, there’s not a single tittle of evidence that the government intends to do anything about it. It is not just the housing costs, the land costs; everything now is beyond the range of low- and middle-income earners. The vacancy rates for apartment dwellers are reaching levels which suggest that one just won’t be able to find an apartment to live in in this province in 18 months from now when the government’s tenure is up for public accountability again.",
"The apartment vacancy rates for major centres in Ontario are, as we have been able to find them -- the most recent figures for December 1973 to January 1974 -- 2.2 per cent in Hamilton; 3.6 per cent in Kitchener; 1.9 per cent in Ottawa; 1.4 per cent in Toronto; 1.9 per cent in Windsor and 9/10ths of one per cent in Thunder Bay, the lowest apartment vacancy rate in Canada.",
"Let me say, Mr. Speaker, that any vacancy rate below four per cent means tremendous pressure on the upward spiralling of rents and cannot really be tolerated. The costs of individual apartments are something that some of my colleagues will deal with in later speeches.",
"Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, of what some of these development companies are making while all of this is occurring. Bramalea Consolidated: For the year ended November, 1973, over November, 1972, Consolidated’s profits went up 66.2 per cent. Cadillac Development: For the year ended Sept. 30, 1973, over 1972, Cadillac’s profits went up 57.5 per cent. Caledon Mountain Estates -- do you remember that little company that was so active on the Niagara Escarpment --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"Some of our best friends."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"-- to whom we paid such extravagant amounts of money to purchase a few hundred acres of escarpment land? Caledon Mountain Estates is not doing badly by it all. For the year ending Feb. 28, 1973 over the previous year, its profits were up 89.7 per cent. Campeau Corp., for the nine months ending Sept. 30, 1973 over 1972 its profits were up 44 per cent. Headway Corp., for the year ending Aug. 31, 1973 over 1972, profits were up 39.8 per cent. Markborough Properties, for the year ended Oct. 31, 1973 over 1972, had an increase of 515 per cent in profits.",
"So here you have the picture. You have in the Province of Ontario, in the city of Toronto alone, housing prices escalating during this Premier’s stewardship by 56 per cent; prices right across the board escalating 20, 30, 40 per cent in towns and cities all over Ontario in the last 18 months; the same true of the cost of land, indeed more exorbitant in prices; the apartment vacancy rate declining; the profits of the major land development companies and those who do the building, increasing at an unconscionable level -- and I’ve not dealt with the rate of return on investment, but that is equally out of line. So finally we have, Mr. Speaker, a new Minister of Housing -- a new Minister of Housing whose first speech says, and I quote him into the record:",
"“My ministry believes the situation can be greatly improved by increasing the supply of serviced land and changing the income mix for new housing. The capacity to make these changes is within our reach if we receive the co-operation of local government and developers. One aspect I’m quickly perceiving is that our goals within the ministry and the goals within the private sector, and this certainly includes the real estate profession, are to a great degree the same.”",
"Well there it is as firm from the Minister of Housing as it has ever been stated, I will say that for the member for Carleton. The member for Carleton doesn’t even dissemble about his loyalty. The member for Carleton says the unlovely alliance, the special relationship, the favoured rapprochement, between the government and the building industry shall continue -- and what’s more, “I’ll stimulate it.” He even says: “For we all have a responsibility, both professionally and morally, to do all we can to assist in the housing needs of the people, the families living in this province.”",
"Well, you find me a developer, Mr. Speaker, who has a moral obligation to provide housing. You show me this creature. You bring Bramalea Consolidated or Cadillac Development or Markborough Properties or Headway Corporation before the bar of the House, or before a committee of the Legislature and ask them about their moral responsibilities for provision of housing.",
"What kind of nonsense is this? They are in this game for profits. Every penny of profit they can extract, whether by virtue of public accessibility or by virtue of the private housing market.",
"And you know, that’s the nature of the free enterprise system, they are presumably entitled to it. But not unconscionable profits. Not profits that exceed a return on investment that everyone would regard as unreasonable. Not profits that make it impossible for us to sell homes to low-income and middle-income families across the Province of Ontario. The reality is that the Minister of Housing made his peace with the private development industry the moment he assumed his portfolio."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"He sold out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He leaped into their arms as soon as he had taken the official oath. I may say, the Minister of Housing leaping into the arms of Bramalea Consolidated is a picture to conjecture with. Presumably this afternoon he’s streaking his way to Markborough -- and anyone else who will have him.",
"The reality is that not a one of the members over there on the Tory side is prepared to do in the housing field what is required to be done. And if I may say to my friend, the member for Brant, I don’t think the Liberal Party is ready either to do the only thing, the only thing that can conceivably rescue the present housing situation.",
"In this situation, Mr. Speaker, there is a sine qua non. There is a basic policy position which must be accepted before anything else can happen. And that policy position involves massive public acquisition of urban land for housing development.",
"To chronicle, as I have chronicled the injustice, is not nearly enough. To chronicle, as the Leader of the Opposition did the foreign ownership of certain properties in downtown Toronto, is not nearly enough. As a matter of fact, to leave out the Four Seasons-Sheraton owned by IT&T is an oversight that is quite beyond belief. That stands at the head of our list. And I won’t tell you which list."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"That is where the NDP held its convention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Never again, I will tell the members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Is that why?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But that is not enough. To talk of taxes -- which I’ll do in a moment -- is not enough. What is required is that the government of the Province of Ontario goes out and buys a sufficient percentage of the land adjacent to the 20 major urban centres in Ontario to bring the housing market within the bounds of availability. It buys the land, then it leases it on a long-term basis and on that land you build homes -- whether one builds them through the Ontario Housing Corp., or whether one builds them through the private sector.",
"And don’t play the pathetic games that are played by the Comay report, which reinforced all the prejudices about the private sector which are now so fashionable. The report which said we should acquire something like 10 per cent of the 300,000 acres over a 20-year period.",
"Acquire something like 50 per cent of the 300,000 acres. Get 80 per cent or 90 per cent of it back from the federal government. Make that kind of social investment for the people of Ontario. Then, finally, provide homes for low-income and middle-income earners. Otherwise there is not a solution; otherwise everything else is so much claptrap, because nothing will change.",
"That alone, taking that land, presumably from major developers and speculators, won’t do it either. Incidentally, Mr. Speaker, we would take it for the original purchase price, plus holding costs and not a penny more. Even if the government takes that land from the original speculators or developers, that isn’t enough. The land which is held by the remainder, the other 150,000 acres of which Comay talked, has to be under so much tax pressure that there will be an immediate incentive to provide it for the public sector or for the provision of housing.",
"That doesn’t mean some vague, graduated income tax. That means capital gains at 75 per cent of value minimum so that there is a tremendous inducement to part with that land. When the public sector owns half of it and puts a 75 per cent capital gains on the other half, finally we will begin to get housing built in the Province of Ontario at a cost which families can’t afford.",
"Mr. Speaker, there is no use playing games with it any longer. I want to make another point. In the last 18 months of the Premiership of this province, of the tenure of this government, of this cabinet, housing has become an investment in this province; an investment in the most pernicious description of the word. Housing has become an alternative to the stock market for a great many people, and the unconscionable profits on housing as an investment should be removed.",
"They should be removed in much the same way as we set up an Ontario Securities Commission to avoid insider trading on the stock market. We set up some kind of housing and land transactions commission to avoid the kind of insider trading and the kind of fast profit which is made on the buying and: selling of homes -- they call it white painting of homes, I think -- in some of the downtown areas of urban centres. They buy at $20,000 and refurbish and sell it for $40,000 or $50,000 within the next month or two.",
"Mr. Speaker, in the process of looking at individual houses and the amazing shift in values with each transaction over the last few year, we, within the caucus research department, came across a number of cases in certain communities which were so incredible that I’m afraid to use them. We are going back to check on them to see whether it is possible. There are cases of profits of 100, 150 and 200 per cent turned over on houses bought and sold within the same month. There are things happening in Ontario, with the use of housing as an investment, that simply can’t be permitted.",
"One can’t play that way with what is a social need and a social right. Maybe one can do it where people are voluntarily taking a risk, but one doesn’t do it when dealing with a social right, a social obligation, that the government is obliged to provide.",
"We will present those figures to the House, Mr. Speaker, but I must say that I was so thrown when they were given to me, particularly in one or two communities in Ontario, that we have asked them to be checked yet again, although I suspect they are entirely accurate.",
"We are also going to have to look at the reduction of growth in southern urban centres because of what is happening to communities from Barrie to Peterborough -- Barrie, Orillia, Peterborough. There is more information on them but one needn’t put everything on the record simultaneously. What’s happening is that the people who live in those communities -- and some members live in them; they know the little communities that lie just east of Metropolitan Toronto; they know what is happening in their own bailiwicks -- the people who live in those little communities are being forced out of their own homes because of the pressure of Metropolitan Toronto. That, too, is not tolerable.",
"As a matter of fact -- I guess this is in the riding of my colleague from York South -- the Cobourg Star, on Feb. 27, carried an article on the front page and a most extraordinary map or chart inside. The headline in the paper reads: “Most of Lakeshore Land Owned by Non-Residents”. These are not non-residents in a multinational sense. These are non-residents of Cobourg, Port Hope and the area, but residents of Toronto, residents of Oshawa and residents of other major southwestern Ontario centres, systematically going into the hinterland and buying up all the most desirable land for speculative purposes, for the worst kinds of greed and acquisitiveness, to turn a fast profit at the expense of the people who have inhabited those parts of the province for generations.",
"The pressure that Toronto is exerting right now all the way out to Stratford in the west and all the way out to Peterborough in the east is something that has to be brought under control, even if it means pretty fierce controls on matters of location of industry and economic growth.",
"The more I see what is happening to housing the more I am persuaded that those of us who feel that the airport is madness have been right all along and that North Pickering is the atrocity we’ve all thought it to be, because what we are doing is simply enhancing the land values and the speculative gains in a way which cannot be defended.",
"Finally, Mr. Speaker, in basic housing policy there must clearly be mortgages provided provincially through the Province of Ontario Savings Offices, with an effective rate of six per cent which would be arranged through the tax credit, the easiest and most equitable way of arranging for that kind of interest rate for houses.",
"If we did all those things, Mr. Speaker; if we reduced the pressures of growth in Metro; if we brought in mortgages from the Ontario Savings Offices; if we reduced interest rates to six per cent by using tax credits; if we put a capital gains tax at 75 per cent on all speculative land acquisition; if we set up some kind of commission in Ontario which would look into housing as an investment to avoid the insider trading and the unconscionable profits; if we purchased in the public domain 50 per cent of the land of which the Comay report talked adjacent to the 20 urban centres -- then we would have a housing policy worthy of the name in this province.",
"Short of that, everything is unacceptable! Short of that, the Minister of Housing has dressed himself in ashes and sackcloth and prostrated himself before the development industry. Short of that, Mr. Speaker, the pattern of the William Davis era will simply accelerate, and an ever greater percentage of people in this province will be denied the right to shelter by the way in which this government refuses to come to terms with a system which is so discriminatory and prejudicial to the mass of the people in this province.",
"Mr. Speaker, what is true of housing is true equally of food, and that’s what makes the Throne Speech again such an inadequate document.",
"If you think that I am going into detail on the cost of living, Mr. Speaker, you ain’t heard nothing yet, because the NDP is staking much of its ground, as we always have, on the question of a fairer deal for the people of this province in dealing with inflation. We have a pretty strong declaration of faith where that is concerned, because we happen to believe that it can be brought under control and are going to take measures to do so.",
"Let me tell you about the William Davis years in the food industry, Mr. Speaker. In the same three-year period since the present incumbent took his seat -- and the Premier is simply symbolic of the Conservative government, I don’t know how else to characterize him -- let me take the choice commodities for you; well, not choice but representative commodities in the food section. Let me tell you what has happened to prices from the middle of 1971 -- to be exact August, 1971; several months after William Davis became Premier -- right through to March of 1974. I’ll give it to you for the Metropolitan Toronto area and point out to you, sir, that the discrepancies with other regions of the province, particularly east and north, are very great, but regional disparities are something some of mv colleagues will deal with more specifically.",
"For Metropolitan Toronto in August, 1971, a quart of milk cost 32 cents; in March, 1974, it cost 36 cents for an increase of 12.5 per cent. A pound of butter was 57 cents in 1971 and 79 cents in 1974, 3.6 per cent increase. A dozen grade A large eggs cost 41 cents in 1971 and 90 cents in 1974, an increase of 119.5 per cent, a pound of bacon 70 cents in 1971, $1.15 in 1974, an increase of 63.4 per cent.",
"A pound of sirloin steak cost $1.36 in 1971, $1.78 in 1974 -- 30.9 per cent. A 24 oz. loaf of bread; 32 cents in 1971, 41 cents in March of 1974 -- a 28 per cent increase. A can of vegetable soup, 14 oz. can; 18 cents in 1971, 23 cents in 1974 -- a 27.8 per cent increase. A can of corn, 14 oz; 22 cents in 1971, 28 cents in 1974 -- 27.4 per cent increase. Five pounds of potatoes; 35 cents in 1971, 85 cents in 1974 -- an increase of 142.9 per cent.",
"Mr. Speaker, I think that milk, butter, eggs, bacon, steak, bread, vegetable soup, as a representative item of canned goods, corn, as a representative item of canned goods, potatoes as a staple which is pretty widely in use, represent a not bad example of the kinds of things on which families are dependent. I want to point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that that means on the average those commodities have increased, in the William Davis era, some 55 per cent in cost in 2% years -- 55 per cent.",
"As a matter of fact there is something quite interesting in that, an increase of 56 per cent in housing and 55 per cent in food. And you know, just while the figures are in my mind, housing and food constitute on the average 56 per cent of the total family budgetary expenditure. So you can see what has been achieved by this government in the last 2% to three years. It is in its own way the strongest possible indictment of this government that can be found. In the world of inflation they are the delinquents.",
"Just so I wouldn’t seem to be unduly unfair, because I am using selected figures, the Premier and his cabinet use a different measure of tabulation. They use what is called the Ontario Food Council market basket, and the market basket contains a great many more items than those I have designated and many of them have not increased at the same rate. But let me just simply tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the market basket was valued in February of 1971 at $56.33, and in February of 1974 it was up to $77.81, which is an increase of over 38 per cent in the government’s own carefully-monitored Ontario Food Council market basket. And again that is an increase of roughly 13 per cent a year, which outstrips the cost of living in other areas and which obviously most families simply can’t handle.",
"I want to say a word about sugar prices too, because I think it is time we talked in no-nonsense terms to the government about some of these things. Prior to the summer of 1973, sugar in Ontario was costing eight to 10 cents a pound. In September to October, 1973, it went up to 15.4 cents a pound. On Jan. 1, 1974, it was up to 21.6 cents a pound. At Feb. 19, 1974, it was up to 30.8 cents a pound.",
"I would like the government of Ontario to inquire into the behaviour of the sugar industry in this kind of acceleration of prices. We are the last people in the world to deny the workers in the industry a legitimate wage, and if I thought that the increase in prices had anything to do with an increase in wages then we would applaud it, but in fact the increase in prices looks suspiciously like control by a cartel. It harks back to the point being made by my colleague from Wentworth the other day in question period about the possible cartel activities of the supermarket chains, and it’s time that the Province of Ontario launched the kind of inquiry that would bring the facts to public view.",
"We would also like the same kind of investigation of the bread industry and what is happening within the bakeries; and we would also like to provide to the farmers, through the Ontario Milk Marketing Board, the increase per quart which they are going to require this summer -- presumably about three cents on a quart of milk -- but we would like very much to have the profits of the major dairies examined by a committee of this Legislature. But more of that in a moment.",
"Having set out some of those items, Mr. Speaker, let me tell you a little bit about what has happened to real wages and real purchasing power. Something has happened in the most recent part of the tenure of the Premier and his colleagues that we couldn’t find another parallel for since the Second World War. Now, probably there is a parallel since the Second World War and I presume you will be able to trot it out, but we couldn’t find it.",
"What has happened is that when you correct the average wages and salaries for the effects of inflation, the average wages and salaries in the last six months of 1973 have actually been declining. Now that is absolutely unprecedented. Absolutely without precedent, certainly I guess in the last several years -- I had better be more cautious; I get carried away when I hear ministers of the Crown comparing things with the Commonwealth and the world, so I am given to hyperbole myself -- within the last several years, it is clearly without precedent, and I am not sure you can find one, that the actual wages and salaries, corrected for inflation, are in a state of serious decline.",
"Let me tell you the figures, because they are really interesting when you compare them to the costs of food and the costs of housing. In January of 1973 the average wage and salary was $161.42; if that figure can stick in the head of Treasury Board’s mind, $161.42. Now, in July of 1973, when you correct the average weekly wage for inflation, the value is $157.11. In August, $156.35; in September, $150.10; in October, $158.76; in November, $157.96; in December, $152.24 -- a drop in actual buying power per weekly wage of something like $9.18 over the value of the wage in January of 1973 and its effective value according to the price indexes in December of 1973.",
"That’s absolutely fantastic! A drop in one year of the equivalent of between $400 and $500 of real purchasing power as measured at the end of the year compared to the beginning, and there is no reason to believe that pattern has changed; and it’s the first time! Again, when we worked out the price index, the average wages and salaries, the correction for inflation and the change in real buying power, we had to check it out several times, because in all of the analyses of such figures it’s really hard to find any other example.",
"We couldn’t; and what that means is that at precisely the moment when all hell’s breaking loose in the inflationary spiral, the real value of wages and salaries is declining in absolute dollar terms and that’s why there is such public furore about it. Obviously the public doesn’t understand it in that way. They don’t look at price indexes. But it’s worth the Legislature understanding it in that way.",
"Now at the same time that’s happening to wages, let me tell members about profits. Profits in 1971 represented 9.6 per cent of the gross provincial product. In the third quarter of 1973 they represented 12.4 per cent.",
"Let me tell members about interest rates. They represented 4.1 per cent of the gross provincial product in the third quarter of 1973, the highest that has ever been noted in the history of commercial interest rates. In terms of salaries and wages, as a percentage of gross provincial product, they declined from 55 per cent to 53.5 per cent in the same period.",
"The Chairman of Management Board will know that those are statistically significant computations, because they again demonstrate that it is the real wages and salaries which are clobbered as the prices and the profits and the interest rates continue upwards.",
"It’s all happening here in the Province of Ontario, without the slightest initiative from the government of Ontario. Well, it has been off the hook long enough; it’s time we joined battle. Perhaps it can be put in another context."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"They don’t even understand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"They don’t even have the decency to come and try to find out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The task force on social security of the Canadian Council of Social Development --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"One cabinet minister has the courtesy to sit and listen."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"One and a half."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I don’t begrudge that. The Premier and the Minister of Education, I suspect, are out in York county and I don’t begrudge them that. I would have thought all the others would be here, but apparently not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I issued the invitations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Canadian Council on Social Development, in computing a new poverty line for this country and this province, suggested a median income of half the average annual income. That would be a poverty line. It seems to me to be a little unfriendly to those who are impoverished but that’s what they’ve taken.",
"If one does take, not for the country but for the Province of Ontario, half the amount of the average family income on the last figures available, which were in 1971, the poverty line for -- I guess it would be the average family -- husband, wife and two kids, is $5,742. If one applies that poverty line to the Province of Ontario, 19.9 per cent -- 20 per cent -- of the people in this province are even now living below the poverty line set in 1971.",
"There isn’t the slightest suggestion that it’s changed. Between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of the families in this province lie below the average median income in Ontario which at that time was $11,483. I ask the members how, in God’s name, they’re supposed to cope with the incredible upsurge in prices during this Premier’s era.",
"During that era, which will be known with a certain infamy in days to come, the friends of the government -- and I mean that in an entirely generous and descriptive way -- the ideological friends of the government, the corporations which share the government’s view of the way this system should work, have not been quite so oppressed. Their values are not declining in real dollar terms and let it be put on the record, I guess for the first time, explicitly; I once did part of it many months ago at a press conference.",
"For the nine months ending Sept. 30, 1973, Burns Foods profits were up 22 per cent. For the six months ending Oct. 30, 1973, over the same period in the previous year, Becker’s was up 57 per cent. For the 39 weeks ending Dec. 29, 1973, Canada Packers was up 40 per cent. For the year ending Dec. 30, 1973, Canada Safeway was up 41 per cent. For the year ending May 30, 1973, over the same period the year before, Canadian Canners was up 69 per cent. Dominion Dairies, for the nine months ending Sept. 29, 1973, over 1972, was up 46 per cent. Dominion Stores, for the 39 weeks ending Dec. 15, 1973, over 1972, was up 13 per cent.",
"Let me tell members what the analysts say about Dominion Stores. They see a much better prospect for food stocks for a number of reasons: less intense competition, improved productivity and inflation. Rising costs of goods can be passed on to the consumer, in addition. Where the price of a case of goods rises by a fraction of a cent for each unit, the unit price is often increased by a full cent. These are the formal analysts looking at the market potential for one of the supermarket chains; reaffirming again, not the kind of nonsense that comes from the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, who has opted out entirely in his public responsibility to do something about prices and inflation, but indicating support for the kind of position taken by members of the NDP caucus and put again by the member for Wentworth last week that something has to be done about the way in which the supermarket companies are manipulating prices and gouging the consumer in this province. And this government can’t sit interminably by and leave it to Beryl Plumptre, because that’s a dance of absurdity -- and everyone in this House knows it.",
"General Foods up 11.5 per cent for the year ending March 31, 1973. General Bakeries, for the six months ending Oct. 6, 1973, is up 232 per cent. M. Loeb Co. Ltd., for the 40 weeks ending Nov. 30, 1973, over the same period the year before, is up 70 per cent. Maple Leaf Mills -- I’m beginning to understand why we have to increase the cost of a loaf of bread -- for the nine months ending Sept. 30, 1973, up 147 per cent. Nestle Co. of Canada, for the full year, up 93 per cent. Oshawa Group IGA, up 11.8 per cent -- and on net profit volume that’s one hell of an increase. Schneider’s Ltd., for the 40 weeks ending Aug. 4, 1973, over the similar period the year before, up 67 per cent. Silverwood Industries Ltd., for the 36 weeks ending Sept. 9, 1973, up 88.9 per cent.",
"Steinberg’s Ltd., up 11.7 per cent. And you know, the major factor in the increase for Steinberg’s -- which, incidentally, went up 14 per cent on sales, 11 per cent on income after taxes; all of these figures are after taxes -- the largest contributor to the income was the food store operations primarily in the Ottawa Valley.",
"It is a tremendously lucrative business now and the turnover has them laughing all the way to the deposit box, while the Province of Ontario wrings its hands and holds bogus food conferences in September of 1973.",
"George Weston Co., that made so much clamour about the need for the increase in the cost of bread, for the year ended Dec. 31, 1973, profits up 86.4 per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Disgusting."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Now, I’ll tell you, this government is letting the corporations in Ontario get away with murder going around gouging profits and with their increases in prices. It’s time the government put its foot down. Stop playing patsy for them all; stop playing patsy for them all. This government can only allow the consumer to be taken advantage of for so long before it’s joined issue with -- and consider this the joining of issue. We’ve talked to this government in a hundred different ways about what it might do, but now we’re going to make specific proposals and press the government every step of the way. Some of the proposals will echo what we’ve said. Some of them will be, in some sense, new.",
"Let me just remind you that in Delhi, I guess it was, the Premier said, quote: “The federal government must make a greater effort to control inflation, the most pressing problem facing the country today.” Mr. Speaker, something has to be said very specifically about this. We believe, as a provincial party in Ontario, that the responsibility for the control, of containment, of prices and profits is a provincial responsibility first and foremost -- and, in constitutional terms, that’s absolutely clear. In constitutional terms, property and civil rights gives to the provincial government the right to do something about prices.",
"The federal government can argue, in an emergency period, under the peace, order and good government clause, constitutionally, but otherwise what the federal government does it chooses to do because it accepts a certain moral responsibility for pricing policy in national terms. And who would deny them that? But if the federal government is delinquent, if the federal government abdicates basic responsibility, then it is clearly both the prerogative and the obligation of the province to enter the pricing and profit picture. As a matter of fact, the pricing picture in provincial rights terms was demonstrated in the Home Oil, I guess it was, decision in 1940. It is very clear in the legal context and constitutional context that the Province of Ontario would have no difficulty whatsoever were it willing to move in on this field.",
"What is happening, as I will show you, Mr. Speaker, in a moment, is that in the Provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and British Columbia where you have NDP governments there are now serious initiatives in the fields of pricing policy. They are obviously not prepared to abandon to the federal government the whole range of prerogative over prices and profits. That is of some consequence, because very soon those provinces are going to be able to demonstrate what we have wished for the world we could demonstrate in Ontario, that this government has the muscle and the capacity to do it. And when it refuses to do it here, it is not that it is collaborating in some national policy.",
"There is no national policy, except for the subsidy on bread and milk and wheat. Except for some occasional and capricious programmes around oil prices and the security of energy supply, there is no national policy. This government knows it. And it further knows that constitutionally it has the right to move in. If the people of Ontario are looking for someone to blame for the cost of living and for inflation, that they can look right here, because it is easily discernible when you look at the policies, or the absence of policies, of this government.",
"Back in Charlottetown in August, 1973, the Premier said he’d call in the supermarket heads for a discussion of pricing policy. I remind the House that nothing has happened. He said at that time, and I quote him: “Some of the food chains were quite irresponsible.” If a Premier of a province thinks that food chains are irresponsible, where the devil is he? What happened between Aug. 10, 1973, and March, 1974?",
"At the Ontario food conference on Sept. 18, 1973, do you remember the promises of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations? Let me list them for you, Mr. Speaker. He promised, number 1, a business practices Act to prohibit unfair and deceptive practices. Not a word heard of it! It isn’t in the House yet. After seven months, where is it? Number 2, he promised, that the courts be given power to rule on what was an unconscionable profit. Where is it? Where is the legislation that would give the courts that right?",
"Number 3, he would explore cease and desist orders in case of unconscionable price increases. Where is the legislation? Where is even the public discussion. Number 4, he would arm the government with authority to act against food hoarding, speculating, profiteering and fraud. Where is that material? Number 5, he would monitor regional price disparities. I have yet to see a single regional price disparity document tabled in this House.",
"As a matter of fact it was the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations who said, if the public has the facts and acts on them, the powerful forces of the marketplace can be brought to bear on any inequities or anomalies that arise. There is the old free enterprise fetish. Like the member for Carleton in the housing market, so is the member for Niagara Falls in the food sector. We will leave it to the market to do the job. Well, they are certainly doing a job -- 55 per cent in 30 months of the Davis era. No group of corporations have profited so lavishly from the abdication of government as those in the food and development industry here in the Province of Ontario.",
"Let me suggest to you a series of policies, Mr. Speaker. Number 1, get the facts. And the facts require a rigorous monitoring and exposure of all of the prices in selected communities across the Province of Ontario.",
"In the Province of Manitoba they have a price monitoring system for northern Manitoba. They select a whole range of communities for assessment. They take into consideration such factors as modes of transportation, the number of retail outlets, sources of supplies and co-operation of local community councils. They compare them to the prices prevailing in Winnipeg at the time. Those are now published documents. Gradually it’s becoming apparent to the people of Manitoba where the disparities exist, and the pressures are so great because the embarrassment is so acute as some of these northern communities reveal what they are paying for basic goods, that they are correcting themselves internally even in advance of the likely legislation.",
"But more important than that, Mr. Speaker, in the getting of the facts we need a monthly report of price spreads from the farm gate to the checkout counter, and let that be a matter of straight public policy and public accessibility. Can you imagine if the consumer of Ontario saw what was received at the farm gate in any one of the whole range of commodities and what was paid at the checkout counter? There would be a public outcry that this government could not resist and the middle man and the supermarkets, who have taken off the extravagant profits, wouldn’t last very long, I’ll tell you.",
"Two, we need a prices review tribunal in this province -- a prices and profits review tribunal really -- so tough and so unrelenting that it could roll back any price that was illegitimate, would have the power to command witnesses and balance sheets, and have the power to make public the various components that go into the prices charged by various sectors of the economy. Mr. Speaker, I say, as we have said before, roll back one price in Ontario; just one price, once. Just do it once. Try it, you’ll like it; it won’t hurt you. Roll back one price and the effect will be so instantaneous and dramatic right across the province in all the other sectors the people of Ontario will suddenly believe that maybe inflation can be controlled, that maybe it is possible to come to grips with the cost of living. But the government’s refusal ever to move in, even on one unconscionable price, is a sort of commentary on its social philosophy, its refusal to intrude on the private sector.",
"Three, Mr. Speaker, we need an excess profits tax badly in this province, in the whole food industry and in related industries. We need an excess profits tax that arrives by learned consensus -- representatives of the industry, representatives of government -- on what is a fair rate of return on investment after taxes and then beyond that rate of return the profits are taxed at very high levels. Then we would begin to have another disincentive for accumulating such profits.",
"Four, Mr. Speaker, we need immediate corrective action for a guaranteed annual income, especially for senior citizens, and it has to work at the level of $225 a month minimum, plus all of the ancillary benefits, the cost of living factor, the tax credits and so on.",
"Finally, Mr. Speaker, we need to solve our supply problems and that’s going to mean an agricultural policy which talks about support for the family farm, something that was nowhere mentioned in the budget, as well as a retreat from the present governmental obsession with turning as many farms into concrete as they possibly can.",
"I met Gordon Hill, the president of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, at a provincial council meeting this last weekend when he was speaking on the Arnprior dam to the NDP members of council to an emergency resolution which we’d passed. I talked with him quietly about the government’s decision on the Sarnia-to-Montreal pipeline. I was assured by Mr. Hill, and I don’t think I misquote him, that despite what the government said about the OFA being interested primarily in compensation, what the Ontario Federation of Agriculture is arguing for -- and with enormous justice, in many ways -- is that the whole route should be through the north and should be within Canada -- that the entire route should be within the Canadian north -- and that the disruption to farmland will in fact be very severe and that they are not to be fobbed off with simple references to compensation. That’s an undeserving slap at the Ontario Federation of Agriculture and a very gratuitous crack that was contained in the announcement made by the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development.",
"Mr. Speaker, there is one other way of measuring the William Davis years in terms of inflation which is immediately apparent. There are many, many other items we can look at, but just let me look for a moment at the rate of inflation, which is extremely difficult to calculate in one sense but I think useful in another.",
"In February of 1971, right at the point of the ascendancy, the percentage increase in the consumer price index from the same period a year earlier was 1.7 per cent. In December of 1973, the increase was 9.2 per cent. Now, what I’m saying, Mr. Speaker, is that the rate of inflation over the life of this government has accelerated in a three-year period by 550 per cent. That’s the rate of accelerating inflation. At least, if you have to have an inflationary rate, keep it down to something that’s manageable. But that it should be five and a half times what it was at the beginning of the Premier’s tenure to this point, is something that is really beyond the pale.",
"And whether it is in this Throne debate or on other occasions, Mr. Speaker, we will be dealing with fuel oil, with gasoline, with the cost of cars, with automobile insurance premiums, with drugs, with every aspect of the economy and documenting and setting out the kind of cost-of-living increases that we feel are so unconscionable for the people of Ontario and must somehow be turned around.",
"I know, Mr. Speaker, that when one is in opposition one is constantly fighting for a kind of credibility, for a capacity to influence the government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The member’s audience is gone."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, I don’t care about that. If I worried about audiences I would have left politics 10 years ago. New Democrats have spoken to mass audiences of three for a long time and it’s never been a problem to us.",
"But gradually the word gets through, Mr. Speaker. It gets through through the initiatives of three western provinces. It gets through through the initiative of having the balance of power in Ottawa. What we are doing is we are serving notice on this government that we are going to be unrelenting in our insistence that it do something about all of these areas of inflation. And that we’re setting the grounds and we’re telling it in advance that the cost of living and the effects on individuals and families in Ontario is what we think the next 18 months are about. And that we are going to be talking about it in no uncertain terms and that if it was possible either to influence or to change government in this province it is in the field of controlling inflation that we would wish the change to be felt.",
"Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to deal with one other matter to tie it together which I’d like to have put in the Hansard of this House. I guess I’ve done it from time to time on other occasions but I think it should be done in this forum. We New Democrats feel that one of the problems that the government obviously senses and constantly carps on is its inability to make it easier for individuals and families out there because you don’t have any more tax resources, and that although you’d like to diminish the impacts of inflation you can’t because you don’t have the tax revenues. You can’t give any more money to old age pensioners other than a $50 bonus at Christmas time. You can’t buy up sections of the Niagara Escarpment. You can’t purchase land for public housing developments. You can’t expand medical care insurance to include dental care. You can’t do any of these things because you are so strapped financially.",
"And you go to Ottawa. And you meet with John Turner. And he says the cupboard is bare. And the Treasurer comes back to Queen’s Park and wailingly beats his chest with that repetitive refrain that “We don’t have any additional sources of revenue and the federal government won’t give it to us.”",
"Well, another area that the NDP feels very strongly about and wants to engage the government on and which ties in directly to the inflationary battle is the question of redistributing taxation in Ontario and moving it from individuals and families to the corporate sector, specifically, Mr. Speaker, the resource sector. And let me put the material on the record of the House, and I know that in this policy we will find no support, either from the Tories or from the Liberals, and that’s all and well to the good, because we’d like the people of the province to know where we’re going to find the additional moneys to finance NDP programmes and to redistribute wealth.",
"For the year 1973 over the year 1972, the increase in net profits for base metals was 397 per cent; the increase for industrial mines was 569 per cent; the increase for paper and forest products was 344 per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"Incredible!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Let me tell you the increases for the individual mining companies in the Province of Ontario -- and I must say, when I think of what has been extracted from the resource-based communities of northern Ontario and how pathetically little has been returned to them by way of basic community supports, it amounts to something verging on the criminal in public finance and in public priorities.",
"Let me tell you about these mining companies right now. International Nickel, for the fiscal year 1973 over 1972, had an increase in profit of 106.6 per cent; Falconbridge Nickel, for the same year, had an increase of 766 per cent; Campbell Red Lake Mines, for the year ended Sept. 30 over 1972, 84.9 per cent; Pamour Porcupine Mines Ltd., for the year ended Dec. 31, 1973, over the previous year, 271 per cent; Mattagami Lake Mines, for the same period, 169 per cent; Noranda Mines, for the nine months ended Sept. 30, 65.7 per cent; Rio Algom Mines, for the year ended June 30, 1973, 175 per cent; Denison Mines, for the year ended in Dec, 1973, 24 per cent; Kerr Addison Mines, for the same period, 66 per cent; Dome Mines, for Sept. 30, 1973, over the previous year, 99 per cent.",
"Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that we have the potential wealth in this province to do everything we would wish if we would only tax it. In the last year for which figures are available, the 1970-1971 year, the net profit for the mining industry in Ontario, after taxes, was $425.4 million. The total taxes paid provincially were $22.2 million. That’s an effective tax rate of 5.2 per cent.",
"Mr. Speaker, that means the mining companies of Ontario are paying a provincial tax rate of something less than the effective rate of people earning less than $7,000 a year. And when you add in all the municipal and federal moneys, it still works out to something like 10.8 per cent as an effective tax rate, which is still in the vicinity of a rate less than for people earning $10,500 a year.",
"We submitted those figures to the Toronto Star -- and before there are questions or scepticism, or eyebrows raised by the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development, whom I pilloried mercilessly in his absence --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"Does the member want to apologize in my presence?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"-- but have nothing but affection for in his presence --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Especially for his eyebrows."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Especially for his eyebrows -- let me read to you, Mr. Speaker, what the Toronto Star reported in Saturday’s “Insight” section about those figures:",
"“The Ontario Mining Association assembled a battery of nine accountants associated with the province’s major mining companies to deal with the NDP figures at the request of the Star.",
"“The result: They were sure Lewis was wrong, but they couldn’t prove it.",
"“’We simply have never assembled such figures,’ said one accountant.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Just a natural instinct."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He added: “We are planning to do so, but right now we just don’t have them.” They were sure Lewis was wrong, but they couldn’t prove it.",
"Well, first of all it is not Lewis; it is those who work for the caucus in the research group. Let that acknowledgement be made because without them we would be in a sorry state. But in fact those figures are impeccably drawn from the documents and materials which the government has at hand. That is why I asked the Minister for Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) today to table the next edition of the annual statistical report of mineral production of Ontario; it has the tax tables in it. This is unfortunately only for 1970. They have got 1971 sitting in a desk over there. Three weeks ago we asked for the printed copy. They said “No, you can’t have it. The cabinet has decided not to release it but you can ask to photostat certain pages.” We sent over a specific request for a photostat of the page dealing with tax statistics. This morning they called back to say, “You can’t have it. It won’t be released.”",
"I am very pleased the Minister of Natural Resources has now decided to release the document but we know why they wanted to sit on that document until one has to purloin it or force it out. The government has got to be embarrassed by an effective tax rate of 5.2 per cent for the mining industry. It has to be embarrassed because people in this province earning less than $7,000 a year pay more by way of taxes than International Nickel, Falconbridge, Rio Algom, Mattagami, Denison Mines, Dome Mines, Porcupine and all of them put together.",
"We are not going to rest our case on those grounds. For what it’s worth, we don’t think that the effective rate of taxation for the resource sector should be based on net profits and we don’t think so because we are extremely uncharitable politicians when looking at the mining sector. They have so much that they write off before they get to the profits after taxes that to deal with net profits is not to deal with an accurate representation of what they are realty worth.",
"They have cut their depletion allowances, their depreciation allowances, their special tax concessions, their special early write-offs. They have fiddled and diddled with the books. They have done everything under the sun to present the gloomiest picture possible and then they present us with a net profit of $425 million.",
"No, we accept the formula which says one should base the resource tax on a percentage of total production -- not productivity but total production -- and one gets away with the complexities of the smelting and refining operations lumped in with certain other aspects of the resource industry and one gets away with the tremendous range in the fashion in which statistics are computed for profits.",
"If one looks at that -- I have the latest off the press in front of me -- let me tell members what Ontario has been receiving as a percentage of total production from the natural resource sectors, specifically the mining sector, in the last several years. In 1970, the total production was $1.59 billion. The total taxes paid were $27.6 million, total provincial revenues. That includes mines profits tax, acreage tax, leases, permits, fees, licences, royalties, everything, $27.6 million. The provincial tax expressed as a percentage of total production was 1.7 per cent.",
"For 1971, total production was $1.55 billion; the total mining revenue paid provincially by way of provincial taxes was $16 million. The effective rate was one per cent of total production. In 1972, total production was $1.5 billion; the amount of money paid with everything included in provincial revenues was $18.9 million; the effective rate of taxation was 1.2 per cent. In 1973, the grand total, estimated, of mineral production is 1.8 billion, the total tax revenues, estimated, is $22 million; again, 1.2 per cent as a total reflection of production.",
"Mr. Speaker, these figures are really appalling. If you would lump in the corporation income tax, federal tax, property tax, do you know what you do? You actually tend to double it. They pay two per cent instead of one per cent but in provincial terms they are paying around one per cent of total production on the average. The NDP says that the natural resource sector should pay -- mark this -- 15 per cent of total production by way of direct provincial taxes and another 10 cents on each ton of ore in reserves, the total of which would approximate $300 million in additional annual revenue for the Province of Ontario. Now, the government of Ontario, as presently constituted, will never do it. In fact, in last year’s budget --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"But we will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"-- it said that it wanted to alter the tax arrangements for the mining industry in a way that would leave them approximately the same."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The minister said he’s going to give them more incentives to get out and explore. They have quit exploring."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"As a matter of fact, that’s true; there would be additional incentives. We’re saying we’re going to turn that one per cent into 15 per cent. In other words, we’re going to do here what the provinces of British Columbia, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are doing.",
"And I point out to you, Mr. Speaker, and through you to the Secretary for Resources Development, that there are no mineral industries leaving BC; that there are no jobs leaving BC; that the exploration hasn’t been constrained; that everything continues apace except that the public is finally getting the share to which it’s entitled.",
"Now, for a generation or more the Province of Ontario has been ripped-off by the mining industry. This government has conspired in a denial to the public of its rightful entitlement in a way that is really -- well, it’s indescribable. I don’t know how it came to that conclusion. Again, it’s clearly a sharing of social philosophy.",
"When the chips are down and the government is pushed to the wall, it raises the sales tax. That’s what it does. Or it raises income tax. Or it allows property tax to be raised so many mills. The Tory government will do anything --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Or collect more premiums."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Or collect more premiums -- exactly. It will raise every regressive tax and every tax that falls indisputably on individuals and families; but it will never allow itself to go to the one source of revenue which is there and waiting and legitimate --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"And it’s ours."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"-- and would do something about redistributing wealth in Ontario. But most of all, I was going to add -- as my colleague from Wentworth said beside me -- most of all, it’s ours. It’s yours and mine and it belongs to the people of Ontario. And the government has no right, it has no blessed right in the world to squander on the profits of these blessed multi-national corporations, what is rightfully the people of Ontario’s.",
"And I may say, the government does it in a way that it will never recover, because they’re non-renewable resources. If we start collecting $300 million a year now, it will never compensate for the billions of dollars in lost tax revenue which we’ve simply never collected. It will never compensate for the destruction in the Sudbury basin; for the collapse of communities like Geraldton, when a one-resource industry closes down; for the denial to the north of everything that they’re entitled to. It will never compensate.",
"But we can begin to introduce an element of justice and equity into the tax system. We can begin to retrieve for the people of the province that which is rightfully theirs, and we will finally alter that arrangement which this government has in its single-minded fashion and in its special genius for seeing injustice and making of it a social principle.",
"So, in the area of inflation, in the area of housing, in the area of taxation we would remove the inequities in Ontario. We know we can do something about it. We understand the problems and we’re advancing solutions that are viable.",
"The pleasure of it is that for the next 18 months those solutions are going to be on parade for public view from three western provinces -- talked about, discussed, argued and watched.",
"We’re very confident about the impression that that’s going to leave; and we’re very confident about the way in which the members over there are going to have to move to meet the demands of this kind of opposition, or they’ll be in dreadful trouble with the electorate. Because when all is said and done, this government’s friendly little land transactions, or its squabbles with the teachers, or what it does to the hospital workers, aren’t what is at root in Ontario -- severe and objectionable as they may be. What is at root in Ontario is the question of the cost of living and how people survive from day to day.",
"Mr. Speaker, one of the phenomena which is most fascinating as one wanders around a little more as I’ve done, and colleagues have done, at mini-caucuses and in trips and tours and visits everywhere. What is really fascinating is the way in which these cost of living, these inflationary issues have taken hold. One hears about them on radio hotlines, one has them raised in public meetings, one is subjected to them in interviews everywhere in Ontario. The cost of living issues mean something. And the difficulty of the government, the problems the government has, the serious chinks in the armour are reinforced by the emergence of the public group, of the community groups all over the province who raise protest and social dissent against abhorrent policies.",
"I simply want to say that it’s the juxtaposition, it’s the combination of all these things, Mr. Speaker, which is making for government an impossible situation. It’s not just the impropriety of a land transaction. It’s not just the impropriety of a social policy like regional government. It’s not just the impropriety of cost of living and its increases. It’s also the fact that out there from Douglas Point to Seaforth you’ve got a whole community of farmers aroused because no one will consult them in advance on taking their land for inadequate payment when Ontario Hydro acts like some arbitrary, foolhardy, self-centred corporation.",
"You’ve got a group of people in the town of Durham who don’t understand why they can’t be consulted in advance when a major political decision is made to take away their name -- and with it, they feel, a good deal of their history and culture -- and give it to another regional area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Take away their name? The member is wrong, just plain wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They just don’t understand why it’s not possible to be consulted in advance, to be brought down and have it discussed at Queen’s Park, They don’t understand this pursuit of determined alienation of public groups.",
"There is a group in North Pickering that doesn’t understand why it has to be the sole group in Ontario for whom the Expropriation Procedures Act is now effective in a way that; “in the public interest” removes from them the right to a hearing. There is a group up around Maple Mountain, whether they are right or whether they are wrong, who simply don’t understand why they have no access to all the public information for which we have already spent $155,000 and are well on our way to spending $300,000 -- why it is that government by leakage is what obtains in the Maple Mountain area. And let me say to the credit of the member for Timiskaming that there are --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, I know of few leaks as effective as the member for Timiskaming -- and why should it be? Why should it be that he as a member, or somebody who picks up rumour or gossip or speculation, should comment on what is purported to be a major economic project for the northeast part of the province? Again, a kind of determinedly insensitive and arbitrary exclusion of the public to the process of planning, to the process of development, to the process of participation.",
"Unto this day we have not had a full public statement about a project that’s been in process from two to three years, and which my colleague from Ottawa Centre has raised time and again, the Arnprior dam. Today, the Ministry of Energy announced he won’t table the engineering feasibility study. Well, one need only ask “why?” What is there about that study that raises such doubts that it would be of such embarrassment for the government to table it?",
"And the coalition against garbage operating in Vaughan township and Hope township and Pickering township -- all of these groups -- appearing before an environmental hearing board that was interested only in the technical and scientific data, not in the social considerations of major public policy of this kind.",
"What they are doing over there, wantonly, relentlessly, inexorably, is alienating Ontario, group by group, community by community, issue by issue and it’s all beginning to merge. This pathetic little performance in the Throne Speech, the “business as usual” tenor of the Throne Speech, is not what will bring it all together for the government because it’s gone too far. It has to have some imagination in order to rescue it.",
"Mr. Lewis moves, seconded by Mr. Deans:",
"That this government be further condemned for its failure to institute satisfactory actions in the following policy areas:",
"Inflation in the cost of living:",
"1. Failure to investigate increases in profits to ensure no excess profit-taking;",
"2. Failure to establish a price and profit review tribunal with power to investigate every aspect of price increases and take whatever action is necessary to ensure no unreasonable increases, or to have selected increases rolled back;",
"3. Failure to establish a consumer protection code extending not only to marketplace transactions and commodities but to the provision of services;",
"4. Failure to institute a province-wide warranty for home building standards;",
"5. Failure to institute a public automobile insurance programme.",
"Northern development:",
"1. Failure to establish economic growth in northern Ontario based on the resource potential as a catalyst for secondary development;",
"2. Failure to establish northern economic development in employment based on long-term secondary growth as a number-one priority;",
"3. Failure to recognize the massive economic disparity between northern and southern Ontario and the adverse effects of the two-price system in this province, and failure to take appropriate measures to bring about equality.",
"Land use and urban growth:",
"1. Failure to move immediately to acquire for the public sector sufficient land to meet the projected housing needs over the next 20 years;",
"2. Failure to begin a house-building programme aimed at producing at least 250,000 homes, both private and public, within 18 months;",
"3. Failure to develop a land-use policy and overall development plan to meet recreation requirements in all areas of the province with immediate emphasis on the “golden horseshoe” area;",
"4. Failure to establish rent review and control measures.",
"Employer-employee relations:",
"1. Failure to amend the Ontario Labour Relations Act to meet the legitimate requests of the Ontario Federation of Labour as conveyed to all members of the Legislature;",
"2. By allowing conditions of work and wages for the hospital workers of Ontario to deteriorate to a substandard level;",
"3. By creating a confrontation with teachers in this province and then failing to respond to the consequences of this action;",
"4. By inflicting compulsory arbitration on Crown employees;",
"5. Failure to legislate against strike-breaking and the use of firms and individuals to disrupt orderly, legal strikes.",
"Income maintenance:",
"1. By failing to institute an income maintenance programme to meet the legitimate needs of the elderly;",
"2. By failing to establish adequate income levels for the disabled and other disadvantaged people of Ontario.",
"Health:",
"1. Failure to provide a sufficient range of institutional facilities to ensure adequate health care at lowest cost;",
"2. By failing to institute a dental and drug care programme;",
"3. By failing to take initiatives which would upgrade the value of preventive medicine.",
"And further, that the government shows gross negligence in its refusal to tax the resources industry of Ontario at a level which would allow individuals and families in this province to experience major relief from the inequitable and oppressive system of taxation presently in effect.",
"Mr. Wardle moves the adjournment of the debate.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
PRIVATE MEMBERS’ HOUR: DENTURE THERAPISTS ACT; PRACTICE OF DENTAL PROSTHESIS ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"Point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely we are just doing one bill, are we not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"I thought it was by agreement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I have not been informed to the contrary, other than by way of a notice listing the speakers, and both bills have been listed on the private members’ hour for this day. I might say that the custom in the past has been on occasion to deal with two identical or similar bills at the same time. It is my understanding that agreement had been reached in this respect, in which case we will deal with the two bills. The hon. member for Sudbury might move his bill and then the hon. member for Brant (Mr. R. F. Nixon) would move his bill and we would proceed with the speeches.",
"Mr. Germa moves second reading of Bill 2, An Act to amend the Denture Therapists Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition perhaps would move his bill too.",
"Mr. R. F. Nixon moves second reading of Bill 5, An Act to provide for the Practice of Dental Prosthesis."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"We will now proceed with the debate. The hon. member for Sudbury."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the subject under discussion today is an old chestnut which has been kicking around for several years. I know many of the members of the Legislature have taken an interest in it and have followed the convoluted course that this problem has taken since the introduction of Bill 203, which was withdrawn and replaced by the infamous Bill 246. The objective of this present bill, An Act to amend the Denture Therapists Act, 1972, is to correct what I feel to be features of Bill 246 which are repressive, not only to the general public but are also repressive to the people in this province who have done a service to the public in supplying dentures at a cost that the majority of people can afford.",
"There are only four features in the amendment, Mr. Speaker. Section 1 of the bill would make an amendment that would remove from the denture therapists licensing board the dental hygienist and the dental technician who are part of the board as it is presently constituted.",
"The second section of the amendment removes the requirement that the denture therapist work under the supervision of a dental surgeon. It allows the denture therapist to deal directly with the public but only where the patient can produce a certificate of oral health signed by a dental surgeon or a legally qualified medical practitioner.",
"Section 3 would amend the limitation period for commencing a proceeding under clause b of subsection 1 of section 16 of the Act. This is changed from two years to one. In section 4 the amendment provides that the Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations setting fees to be charged by denture therapists.",
"It is my belief, Mr. Speaker, that if these amendments were adopted as outlined in this bill it would go a long way to solving the impasse which has plagued and embarrassed this government for the past several years. I think we are not asking the government to embark on any adventure that has not been tried. We are not creating precedent here. We already know that there are denturists operating in five of our provinces already, in fact, in Alberta since 1961 and in British Columbia since 1962. Even despite all the charges by the opposition forces that these denturists are not qualified and they are going to do harm to the public, we still have not got on record any charges or any malpractice suits which the insurance companies have paid.",
"I believe that the record tells the story itself. If these people have operated since 1961 in Alberta and 1962 in British Columbia, then there is no legitimate reason that I can see why we should not have the same services in the Province of Ontario. Quebec also allows denture therapists to operate. Nova Scotia presently has legislation on the books, and Manitoba. In the case of Manitoba and British Columbia, a certificate of oral health issued by a dentist or a physician is necessary. Newfoundland and Saskatchewan are also planning to establish denturists as a legal, independent profession. Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick have no legislation concerning denturists. Only Ontario of all the 10 provinces is the one that has made it illegal. I think the reason this government reacted was because of the terrific lobby which was put up by the Ontario Dental Association in its efforts to protect what I suspect is a vested interest in the supply of dentures to the public.",
"Mr. Speaker, there was a very interesting booklet distributed quite recently, written by a dentist by the name of Revere, and it’s entitled “Dentistry and its Victims.” In this book I think this dentist has hit on the reason there is so much opposition by the dental profession to allowing these paramedical people to get into the field. I will quote one paragraph from this booklet:",
"“The public has been conditioned to accept a high fee for denture services and a relatively low fee for fillings and peridontal work but the reverse would make more sense. Though the cost of materials in a denture is but a few dollars, fees for new dentures have always been high.",
"“Today’s quality laboratory fee for full dentures may range from $50 to $90. This is paid by the dentist. An average neighbourhood dentist’s fee for full dentures, upper and lower, might be between $300 and $500. Since the average practitioner does not spend much time with his patient, a close commutation could only prove that dentures are a more lucrative field for the typical dentist. It is ironic that the end product of neglect and poor dentistry should be profitable.",
"“The construction of full dentures has always been a lucrative field and one might well wonder why this should be. An old-time dentist whom I respect once told me that it was his belief that high fees were originally established for denture service because the denture represented the last opportunity the dentist had to make money from the patient and the most had to be made of it.",
"“If this is so, and it may well be so, it gives an uncomfortable insight into the operation of economic motivation in the healing arts. It is time and more than time that the professions took a fresh look at their aims and ideals.”",
"I think we have to reduce the whole argument, Mr. Speaker, to something very crass. It is the self-interest of the dental profession which I think is blocking the people of Ontario from gaining this service.",
"There is further evidence of this attitude, Mr. Speaker, in a booklet published by the Ontario Dental Association, September, 1972, entitled “A Public Concern.” In appendix K the dental profession posed questions and answered its own questions, and as I went through these questions I came to the conclusion that in its efforts to make its case it had actually subverted its case more than it had made it.",
"Question 1 was: “How can the dentist justify fees of $400, $500 and $600 for plates?” This is the dental association asking itself a question and here is how it answered its own question.",
"“Answer: There are very few dentures made for $300, $400 and $500. However, with the sophisticated methods available to dentists today it is possible to construct dentures using techniques that would justifiably entail fees of this magnitude and even more.",
"“Under the free enterprise system if the dentist feels his talents are worth that much and a patient looking for this level of expertise agrees to pay that fee, that is strictly their arrangement. The patient appreciating excellence is glad to pay for it.”",
"Mr. Speaker, this is precisely what is wrong with the delivery of health services. We have tried to overcome that by introducing a medical and hospital plan but the dentists are still operating on the free enterprise philosophy that those who can afford health care will get excellent care. Those of us who are somewhat limited in our financial strength will just have to do without. This is precisely what is going on in the Province of Ontario today. There are hundreds --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There are 30 seconds remaining in the hon. member’s time allotment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"No, he has got 20 minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"No. It was my understanding there would be 10 minutes each. Otherwise there would only be two other speakers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, we are entitled to 20 minutes. It is our time slot and the lead-off speaker is traditionally given 20 minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"But there are two bills."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"On a point of order, I would agree with the hon. member who just spoke. This is the NDP’s private members’ hour; they have introduced their bill and they get 20 minutes and everybody else gets 10. That’s why I was surprised that you were asking me to introduce my bill under the same circumstances."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Of course the notice given to me includes two bills, that of the hon. member for Sudbury and that of the hon. Leader of the Opposition. If we were to give 20 minutes to each of those hon. members, it would leave 20 minutes for only two other speakers and the usual 20 minutes for the lead-off speaker and 10 minutes for each other. I was not informed of any other arrangement.",
"Since there are two bills I fail to see how I can give each person 20 minutes and deal with both bills under the same hour. Perhaps the whips could enlighten me as to what the arrangements might have been?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think there is precedent when bills are combined. Usually the two who combine their bills each have 15 minutes, which takes up the 30 minutes, and then we go on in the 10-minute routine. I may be wrong on this but there are lots of precedents for combined bills."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Well, I am in a generous mood and will do whatever the hon. members wish to do. But the time has expired for the first speaker, if it is to be 10 minutes each."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"I am not aware of what your ruling is, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I can’t very well make a ruling without all the information. Was there any agreement to the effect that there would be 10 minutes each?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Was there any agreement to the effect that both bills would be heard today?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Yes, between the three whips."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"We certainly have never allowed 20 minutes when there were two bills during the same private members’ hour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Well, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if the present speaker were to continue until 5:20 o’clock anyone else who wanted to take part in this debate could speak for 10 minutes. Would that be agreeable? That would certainly suit me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"And would it be the wish of the hon. member that Bill 5 also be considered?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"It is quite all right. It is already before the House, Mr. Speaker. Let’s get on with the debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does everyone agree to that arrangement? The hon. member for Sudbury."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the second bill which is going to be under discussion, Bill 5 I believe it is, would in effect accomplish the same thing that the amendments which I have proposed for the Denture Therapists Act. I think all the arguments I am making in favour of the four amendments I am putting are also included in Bill 5. The arguments are valid as far as both situations are concerned.",
"We are talking directly about money, Mr. Speaker. There are a lot of people in the province who are deprived of this health service because of the attitude that the dentists have had in the past. As I read their answer, they rely on the free enterprise system. If someone wants to pay $1,000 they will accommodate him, and if he wants to pay $500 they will also accommodate him.",
"I was talking to one of my denturist friends from the city of Sudbury today. He informed me that he knows of a recent case where the dentist did charge in excess of $1,000 in the city of Sudbury for a full set of dentures. This is unconscionable profit.",
"I think eventually our health delivery systems have to be brought under some central control. The bill will provide for this in that the Lieutenant Governor in Council would make regulations setting fees charged by the denture therapists. It is not very often that any of our professionals will agree to allow the government to set their fees. I can just imagine -- well we already know what the medical profession has said about these. They are in the habit of determining within their own little ivory tower what the health bill for the province is going to be. Then they divide the pie up without negotiations with anyone.",
"I think it is a symbol of the good faith that the denturists have that they are willing to submit their fee schedule to be regulated by order in council. We already know that the present fee structure of the Denturist Society is between $150 and $200. That is their maximum range. In the case of senior citizens and welfare recipients the price is $125 for both an upper and a lower denture.",
"It is ironic to me that this government has presently seen fit to hail into court seven people and charge them with illegal practice in making dentures, while at the same time the welfare departments, which are also an agency of the Province of Ontario are utilizing the services of these illegal clinics. In the case of the city of Sudbury, 90 per cent of all those welfare recipients who have to have dentures are referred by the welfare agency to one of these illegal clinics. This points up how ridiculous the denture therapist bill which is presently on the statutes is, that one agency of government will hail them into court and the other agency will see fit to use them. Now, the denture therapists have also agreed that in order to meet those complaints from the dental profession, and also in order to assure the general public that they are genuinely concerned with the health of their patients, they have submitted that they would go along with the provision that a certificate of oral health should be provided before the denture therapist should be able to fit a complete denture.",
"In fact, in some of the clinics this is already happening. In speaking to some of these people, I was told they do ask each and every patient to go and get a certificate of oral health from a dentist or from a medical practitioner. There has been publicity circulated by these organizations, between themselves. Some doctors are not prone to signing this certificate of oral health, nor are some dentists prone to doing it. But even despite the efforts of these professional organizations to prevent patients from getting certificates of oral health, many of these certificates are now being filed with the denturists, and I think it is in the public’s best interests that this is done.",
"It is recognized, Mr. Speaker, that these people are mechanics. They do not have the extensive educational background that the dentists have. There is a place for dentists in our society, but I suspect and I submit to you that there is also a place in society for the dental mechanic.",
"Now, I will conclude, Mr. Speaker, by reading an excerpt from Time magazine, Dec, 7, 1973. It is an essay on the rights of patients; and I quote: “Medicine may be the last forum in which the voice of the consumer makes itself heard; but eventually it must and will be heard, since the ultimate consumer is the patient and it is on the patient that the profession practices.” Now, Mr. Speaker, there is ample evidence that the public of Ontario has accepted the denturists. There are committees across this province -- spontaneously-formed committees -- which are fighting for the repeal of Bill 246. These amendments which I have proposed would in fact make it unnecessary to repeal Bill 246. It would only put Bill 246 in an order which is livable, both for the public of Ontario and for the denturists."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"One very important thing has happened since we discussed this bill in the Legislature last, and that is that we have a new Minister of Health (Mr. Miller). He is having a little difficulty paying attention to this debate because colleagues on all sides are so delighted in having him actually here, captive for a moment or two so they can find out about their nursing homes, that he is having a bit of a problem in listening to the strong argument put to him.",
"I believe that this is a more important debate than is sometimes heard in the private members’ hours, because I believe that the government should and no doubt will, under the leadership of the new minister, change its policy.",
"You may recall, Mr. Speaker, that we have found ourselves in circumstances similar to this before when arguments on all sides, including government benches, urged the inclusion of the chiropractors in the services of OHIP. The then Minister of Health, the present member for Ontario (Mr. Dymond), adamantly refused and said as cogently as any minister could possibly say, that the chiropractors were not to be included. But then, in the course of time, he gave up that heavy responsibility and assumed a new one -- what is he now, chairman of the Science Centre or something? -- and the responsibility for the governance and administration of our health policy passed on to someone else. It wasn’t long -- for reasons really not well known on this side, since the same strong arguments were put forward -- until OHIP was amended to include the chiropractors.",
"I feel something similar could be established at the present time, because the bill that I am putting forward simply has within it the basic principle that was put before the House on June 26, 1972, by the then policy minister, the present Attorney General (Mr. Welch). It was No. 203, and it certainly established denturists as a practising group within the community, with the power to deal directly with the public. This is precisely what Bill 5, which is before the House now, would do.",
"We feel that amending Bill 246 would in fact just reverse its principle. And you may remember, Mr. Speaker, when the original bill, which restricted the practice of the denturists, was introduced by the former Minister of Health (Mr. Potter), he asked for an amendment which in fact reversed the principle; and you, sir, ruled that it could not be continued with since its principle had been reversed in that way.",
"So I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that we don’t want to make our arguments in any way other than those which could be acceptable to a reasonable minister, and I believe we’ve got one. Because surely he cannot continue with the chaos that has been willed to him by his predecessor in the area of this particular issue.",
"We are not prepared to see the Attorney General enforcing a law which is diametrically opposed in principle to the bill which he personally introduced into the House when he was policy minister in those days; for him to be required, through some agency probably higher than himself, to go to the denturists in the province -- and there are 107 of them practising -- select six to begin with, and an additional five or six, to be raided and to have their patients mistreated. In one case, a set of dentures was taken right off the table beside a lady who was being treated; the teeth were bundled into a package and taken away to the police station as evidence of malpractice.",
"Surely this is the kind of intimidation which is unconscionable and unacceptable, and the Attorney General himself must just cringe when he sees that he is using these practices for the enforcement of a law that is diametrically opposed in principle to one which he put before the House on June 26, 1972.",
"I don’t intend to trace out all of the circumstances, but I’m sure you’re aware, Mr. Speaker, that the Ontario Council of Health reported on June 25, 1972, that the denturists should be allowed to practise only under supervision. When the bill, which was opposed to that particular recommendation, was introduced the next day, the then policy minister, the present Attorney General, said the government is always free to accept or reject whatever advice it wants. In other words, it rejected the advice of the Ontario Council of Health and brought in legislation which was generally parallel to legislation already in effect at that time in four provinces of Canada.",
"The point has already been made that denturists do practise under government supervision, but independently in the community, in most provinces of Canada; and this is the only province where they are directly and specifically prohibited from so practising.",
"Mr. Speaker, you may further recall that the Barry Lowes committee on the standards for licensing the denturists brought in a report that called for an extensive programme of training, following the licensing of denturists -- I think they called them denture technologists or something like that -- but that was reversed as well when the former Minister of Health decided, for reasons unknown to us but alluded to by the previous speaker, that in fact the denturists should not be permitted to practice independently.",
"The former Minister of Health did go forward with a fairly substantial programme of professional training or technological training for those who did want to designate themselves denture therapists. I understand that some 85 to 90 took the training in the original course but that only a handful are practising in this regard because they find that their income is not parallel with what they might have expected to gain or earn if, in fact, they had continued as denturists.",
"My colleague, the member for Waterloo North (Mr. Good), put an interesting excerpt from the Kitchener-Waterloo Record, dated March 9, 1974, in my hand a moment ago. It’s an advertisement as follows: “Mr. Derek Groves, LDT, wishes to announce his commencement in the practice of denture therapy, by appointment, 884 -- 8386, 122 Weber St North, Waterloo.” It’s an indication, Mr. Speaker, that there is a further complication, that the licensed denture therapists who have taken the course that has been put forward by the ministry -- that this particular individual is apparently going to practise directly with the community and without the supervision of a dentist. It may be otherwise, but certainly when he advertises his practice of denture therapy by appointment there is every indication that a licensed denture therapist has broken the ranks and is prepared to practise without the supervision of dentists.",
"Let me make it clear, Mr. Speaker, that we are not here being critical of the dentists. It is their job to keep all of us out of the hands of the denturists or the denture therapists, but not by using regulation and statute, but surely by practising preventive dentistry which, in the long run we hope, is going to render obsolete the building and fitting of dentures for those of us who at least take the kind of advice from the dentists that we should.",
"I’m simply saying to you, Mr. Speaker, that the new minister can, in fact, exercise his authority to make the recommendations to his colleagues to reverse what has just been a comedy of errors from the first time that his predecessor decided that the denturists should not be able to practise independently. It flies in the face of the practice elsewhere in this country and it is diametrically opposed to the principles put before the House as government policy on June 26, 1972.",
"Frankly, I’m tired of being told by experts in the field, certainly dentists and others, that my bill and the bills that are also before us today would put the public in the hands of those people who would harm them. I do not believe that this is so. I do believe that we are moving in this province and elsewhere toward the recognition and the substantial development of paramedical and paradental services, similar to the optometrists and the chiropractors, which are going to come under direct and rigid government training and supervision. There’s no suggestion, certainly in my bill or the other one, that anybody off the street would come in and plunk down $10 for some sort of a licence that would enable him to fit dentures and hang out a shingle and start dealing with the public. Of course, that cannot be true and is not part of the principle of this bill.",
"The concept is similar to the one put forward on behalf of the government by the present Attorney General in his bill numbered 203 in 1972. We believe that this is what the government must come to. I would simply say to you, Mr. Speaker, that we urge the Minister of Health in his new position of authority, where he must take sole responsibility for the welfare of the people -- and there is certainly no doubt about that -- also to take the responsibility to advise his colleagues on the basis of common sense what the community requires, and what, in fact, the community demands.",
"We’re not pressing for this bill to be passed at this time. We would hope that it would be, but we would expect the Minister of Health in his wisdom to see the advantages directly to the community of Ontario and to the taxpayers in the principles of the bills before us this afternoon. We would hope that before this session ends we will see a change in government policy, which is overdue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Oxford."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. C. Parrott (Oxford)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the discussion on these two bills that the members for Brant and Sudbury have presented cannot be significantly different, in my view, from the debate that was held some years ago. It is true that certain things have transpired in that time but very little has changed. The basic arguments that were true then are true today.",
"Whenever I take part in a debate of this nature, it seems that I am instantly accused of having a vested interest or a strong bias. Well, probably today is no exception."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)",
"text": [
"Pull some incisors!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrot",
"text": [
"I cannot deny, nor do I wish to deny that I am a dentist. And if that puts me into a position of as one having a vested interest, or even a conflict of interests, then so be it. But let me assure the members of this House that I do not have a monopoly on conflict of interests on this particular subject. In my view, the Liberal caucus and the leader of that party sees this issue as primarily a political problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Does the member mean to say it is good for the people therefore we might support it? What are we here for?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrot",
"text": [
"I’m afraid the Liberals have not looked at all of the aspects, some of which are far more important. I suspect this bill was prompted for purely political gain."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Oh no, we would not do it for political gain."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"And there can be no doubt that the vested interest of the leader of the official opposition is far greater than my own. And for quite different reasons."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"The member sounds like a dentist. Is he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"But what is far more important --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"I think he does have a vested interest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"Indeed I have; I admit that readily. But I submit that so does the member. But what is far more important --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Too bad he is a politician."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"What the members opposite have failed to see is the true issue. It is health, not votes, that those members should be concerned about in these deliberations. Certainly the political implications should be considered, but I have yet to see or hear the Liberal Party suggest any reforms or improvements so vitally needed in the delivery of dental services. Instead, they seek as usual the expedient rather than the responsible approach."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Somebody wrote that for him. One of those creeps that sits under the gallery has written that for the member.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"I would --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"It must be hurting. I must be on the nerve again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"Is the member for Oxford going to run federally next time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"I know he didn’t get into the cabinet; but he knows he will never make it telling the truth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"The members opposite deal with only six per cent of the dental services of this province and they fail to consider the other 94 per cent. The making of dentures is obviously important."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"He seems awfully worried."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"But in typical short-sighted fashion, these bills fail to propose the great needs of this province. I refer to those things that will deliver dental services to all of our people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"I don’t like the Minister of Health. The member for Oxford should fire him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"Oh, I’m disappointed, too --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"The minister is disappointed, too. The member for Oxford should have read his speech before he came in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"Very good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I can remember when the member for Oxford made a speech in favour of this."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"I am disappointed, too, that the hon. member has not seen fit to propose much-needed changes relative to the vast majority of dental auxiliaries. We talked about it very briefly. Rather, he has chosen to focus on a very small portion, something in the range of two per cent of all those people, other than dentists -- and I repeat, other than dentists -- but simply two per cent of those who are involved in the delivery of dental services in auxiliary roles.",
"In fact, the whole debate on this controversial subject seems to have forgotten some 6,000 dental assistants, some 500-plus dental hygienists, and some 1,300 dental technicians and their employees. The opposition has forgotten that large segment. In other words, there is a total of nearly 8,000 dental auxiliaries who have been forgotten far too long. Surely, all of these properly trained, adequately trained, and thoroughly trained people should be given far greater consideration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Do they want to practise independently, too?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"We’ll deal with that in a minute. And may I repeat that those who feel I have a vested interest in this subject might be right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Who does the member buy his teeth from?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"But again, I say to those members opposite who would deal with such a small segment of the problem, it is small in comparison. Why don’t they get with it? Why don’t we plan for the 8,000 auxiliaries --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The government bill deals with it. That’s all it deals with."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"-- and provide services to save teeth, and not be involved with those problems involved with those of replacing teeth? Let’s plan how we can assist those people who cannot afford dentistry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"That’s another dental Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"Let’s plan to utilize the large number of people in the dental auxiliaries who have been well trained --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Denticare?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"That’s another type of cavity --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"-- and increase the productivity of the thousands of dental offices by the use of these auxiliaries. Certainly I’m prepared to use the dental therapists or the denturists, whichever you wish to call them, but let’s plan to use them in a team approach and to utilize all the auxiliary personnel in an effective manner.",
"Unless my NDP friends in the immediate vicinity here think that they are in a satisfactory position on this subject, let me refresh their memory on a couple of items. May I say that I’m appalled at their lack of aggressive attitude to the rights of the many people and workers who have been employed in this field of endeavour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Taylor (Prince Edward-Lennox)",
"text": [
"The unsung heroes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"Right. So often the members of that party have spoken about tokenism; well, I ask you, what kind of tokenism is it --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"They are tokenists!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"-- when there is only one male hygienist in a register of nearly 600, or few if any of the 6,000 auxiliaries have a male receptionist or assistant? You know, it works both ways."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"Is that our fault?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"But I ask them, why have they not championed the cause of the dental hygienist who, as they know --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"My friend is full of red herrings.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"At least the dental hygienist is by far the most trained person --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Pretty weak. This is a pretty weak defence of government policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"I am amazed they haven’t championed the cause of the dental hygienist, who has taken her formal training and has been a great asset in the delivery of dental services."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)",
"text": [
"I remember when the hon. member supported us on this. Can’t he reflect back?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"I’ve always been in the same position, and my friend knows it. I’ve been in the same position; his party vacillated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"The member for Oxford should work in the same place as he does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"You know, those of us who are a little more involved with this process realize that a hygienist is perhaps the one person who is overtrained and under-utilized and yet painfully not available to those who are in the direct business of delivering dental services to the people of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Dentists are never painfully not available; they are painfully available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"I said the hygienist, if my friend from Sarnia would listen.",
"It seems to me that the dental laboratory technicians are another large segment, and the NDP too have ignored their plight. There are 1,300 of them, and their livelihood is at stake. The dentists will go on with or without denture practice. But I’m telling you that the dental laboratory field is in very grave condition. In fact, I doubt if very many of the so-called experts who have spoken on this recognize the difference between a dental technician and a denture therapist. I feel sorry for those 1,300 people who have no one to speak for them, and I protest on their behalf. Their livelihood is at stake and the members opposite have failed to recognize this.",
"What we are witnessing here in these kind of bills is a fragmentation of dentistry, and I suggest that what we need is not fragmentation but indeed a team approach. If we are going to go on with the proposal as suggested here, that the denture therapist work by himself, why not let the dental hygienist and the next auxiliary work by themselves?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Sixty seconds remaining."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Parrott",
"text": [
"But that will fragment all of the profession, and I’m saying that will be the greatest disservice we could possibly do. If we are going to have one, we should permit the others; and if not, then we should have all of them in a team approach.",
"In closing, let me hazard a guess as to why so many of these people are ignored. It is because there are so many dollars available to a few denturists who have so much to gain by this bill and at the same time, by a few politicians who are far more interested in votes than they are in teeth.",
"I want change as much as anyone else in this field, and I want dental services available to all the people. But I want those services available from a team approach and I want them available now, and the concepts in these two bills certainly won’t do that job.",
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Parkdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Dukszta (Parkdale)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am continuously fascinated by the ability of the medical profession and, at the moment, the dental profession to mystify and to mythologize what is often a quite simple matter. I agree with the member for Oxford that we need a team effort, but what he proposes is a team effort under almost complete domination of one profession. We are speaking now in respect of the dental field. A dentist has an overwhelming lead over almost everyone else. This is not what is called a team effort under any condition.",
"This ability to mystify extends itself from a very simple matter. One of the old arguments used in an attempt to prevent a denturist making dentures was that a denturist is unable to deal with major oral pathology in the mouth. The first diagnostician of any major pathology, or any pathology at all, in the mouth is always the patient. He says there is something bothering him and he is going to see a guy to deal with the pain in his mouth. There is no real major problem of defining what the problem is. You feel the pain and you go and see someone about it.",
"Both the medical and the dental professions have always produced this element of mystery in an attempt to make sure that only the profession can deal with it. The whole field of both medicine and dentistry is moving now toward participation of the patient, participation of the community, in spreading the involvement in the practice itself to the paraprofessionals, yet the government, prompted very strongly by the dental profession, has moved in a retrograde action to stem that new tide. Almost all of our technology, all of our theoreticians, state over and over again that we must in fact have other people besides the actual professional delivering the service. And it is not enough to deliver the service as an extension, as an arm of a dentist or a physician; you have to train the other people to deliver the service in a more autonomous fashion so that he or she gets the job satisfaction and can do the job better.",
"Nobody denies that you need training for almost anything pertaining to the ailments of the human body. We need training just as much for a denture therapist as we need it for a physician. The point I’m trying to make is that to make dentures for a teeth-free mouth is a fairly simple matter. It does not necessarily involve six years of training or extensive training as a denture therapist, nor does it involve an expensive procedure, as the dentists have claimed it does. It is a fairly simple matter.",
"Though the denture therapists or denturists need some training they are quite willing to do it, but they have to be able to practise autonomously afterwards. It is a simple matter and it would well behove the new Minister of Health if he perceived this -- that we need not more professionalization of the field but that we need less professionalization. We need a more open health delivery system in which the various members of the team function in an integrated fashion but function more autonomously of each other. This whole concept of a team effort is that the people co-operate as a team, not as if they were in a military platoon in which there is only one leader and everyone else obeys orders instantaneously.",
"I know that even to debate this private members’ bill seems like an academic and intellectual exercise, but both myself and the member for Sudbury stand up to say that our approach toward the denturist is only part of our approach to the whole health field, and we state that we must move toward a more intense community involvement, more intense usage of paraprofessionals and more intense participation of the patient himself.",
"I speak in support of this bill as a part of an overall support to the long overdue change in the health field. And though it’s truly a small group we are speaking of it is very significant in terms of the whole approach which the government has shown up to now in ignoring what are the major problems in the health care delivery system. May I say again that it behoves the minister well to listen to some of the remarks that people have made so far because the whole matter has been blown out of all proportion. It would be a most graceful thing if he withdrew it or changed it or introduced a new bill which would allow the group to practise, after suitable training, what it wants to do which is to make cheap dentures for the people who need them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of Bill 5, An Act to provide for the Practice of Dental Prosthesis, as submitted by my leader, and to support Bill 2, An Act to amend the Denture Therapists Act.",
"Either one of the two bills, I think, would resolve the issue of the dentists and denturists. There is hardly one of us in the House who hasn’t over the past two years -- especially approximately a year or two ago -- received not one but hundreds of letters from both sides of the issue, both from the individuals requiring the services of denturists as well as those who required the services of dentists.",
"However, in my own particular riding, for every one letter that I received in support of the approach taken by the dentist I received approximately four from people who had had to use the services of denturists, and found them to be most efficient; found them to be satisfactory; likewise, found them to be within their financial means.",
"Mr. Speaker, the legislation originally started on June 26, 1972, when the then Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mr. Welch) introduced the original bill permitting denturists to deal directly with the public. This is just as it should have been and we assumed that the government was going to follow on with its original plan. However, on Dec. 5, I recall I noted at the time, when the Minister of Health (Mr. Potter) submitted amendments to Bill 203 his amendments were in direct opposition to the intent of the bill and I brought it to your attention. Others spoke on that also, Mr. Speaker, and as a result that bill was withdrawn and the government introduced Bill 246 on July 6.",
"On Dec. 5, the Minister of Health made the proverbial flip-flop and from being in support of denturists working by themselves and dealing directly with the public, he introduced legislation that would require them to work under the supervision of a dentist.",
"From July 6, 1973, until January, 1974, the denturists continued to practise without any crackdown on the part of the Attorney General’s office. However, after the bill had been in force for 13 months the government decided it was going to raid selectively certain denturists’ clinics in an attempt to crack down on the denturists operating in open defiance of the law. Why selectively, Mr. Speaker? Surely, if the ministry thought that the denturists were openly defying the law and were not performing the services of which they were capable, the ministry should have gone after every single one of the denturists operating throughout the Province of Ontario.",
"Mr. Speaker, the former minister’s tactics on this issue can really be said to be nothing but deplorable. I am sure that now the new minister -- and the former minister as well as the government -- knows that Bill 246 is a piece of bad legislation, the new minister is having second thoughts and is trying his darnedest right now to turn back the clock to June 26, 1972, when the original bill, which permitted denturists to deal directly with the public was introduced.",
"Mr. Speaker, ads in the papers even today still carry the name of the hon. Mr. Potter as being the Minister of Health. I know the new minister will see to it that those ads are no longer carried and that the government will withdraw its original legislation or accept the legislation that has been introduced by my leader and make it a piece of government legislation.",
"Mr. Speaker, the concern of the public was so great that they presented hundreds of petitions to various members throughout the length and breadth of the province. I will read only a few comments, a few lines out of some of the letters.",
"“The price I was quoted was $500. It is far beyond the reach of the lower-income bracket and the senior citizens. Having a set of dentures made by a denturist, I was extremely happy with the end result.”",
"A second: “Our province is one of the most developed of all provinces. Should it be necessary for a denturist to face a jail term? In the rest of Canada, this practice has been made legal.”",
"A third comment talking about a denturist: “I feel he is quite capable of his work. He has been doing the same thing for dentists as he is doing now. Why can’t he do it for himself?”",
"A fourth comment]: “Why is it necessary for a denturist in Ontario to face up to a possible two years in jail term when in other provinces, both in the east and the west of us, this practice has been made legal? I think it is about time the legislation realized the needs of the province in this matter.”",
"Mr. Speaker, I could come along and read from probably 200 different letters that I have received. However, I would like to close and allow the member from the government side to make his comments. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, as well as to the members on the government benches to put common sense behind their thinking on Bill 246, realize that they have made a mistake, admit they have made a mistake, accept the bill introduced by my leader, resolve the problems once and for all and allow the denturists to work as they have requested.",
"No one for one minute would say that the denturist should not be fully qualified. We agree with their qualifications except that we think that they have been doing a good job in the past, They are responsible people. They are not fly-by-night operators and they should be allowed to continue as they have prior to the passing of Bill 246.",
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"What did we do to deserve this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"The member wanted it and now we’re going to have to take it. Mr. Speaker, if I could just start off on a pleasant, conciliatory note, the government and particularly the members in this row of the government have always prided themselves upon abundant common sense. That is why we want no part of either one of these two bills which were conceived in moments of frustration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I’d sooner hear the member for Wellington-Dufferin (Mr. Root) than the member for Scarborough Centre if he wants a common sense man."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"Oh, I am a common sense man, but after listening to what the Leader of the Opposition churned out in the middle of the afternoon, it’s enough to make anybody frustrated. I can understand the frustration that was there when he found two bills combined into one and had to limit his remarks to a few moments. I have only got four minutes and I want to make some points about common sense.",
"First, how can you equate the training that a dentist or a dental surgeon goes through with the training that there is for a denturist or a denture therapist? If you want to tell me, Mr. Speaker, that all the training one needs to work on the inside of one’s mouth is so far not even a single course, then, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you we are into the element that common sense is being defied.",
"Secondly, Mr. Speaker, there has to be an element of control in the situation, and indeed the denturists themselves admit that there is a very essential need for control. They propose that a certificate of oral health be obtained from either a dentist, a dental surgeon or a medical practitioner prior to themselves operating and providing dentures inside the mouth. This is a very frank admission, and I respect the denturists for this, but it is a very candid admission that they have not been specifically trained to cope with the very many oral diseases."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"They are not pretending to be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"I didn’t suggest they were. I said they are admitting they are not qualified. My friend, the Leader of the Opposition, if he had any common sense, that is why he should go along with the government position because our concern is about the protection of the individual."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The member supported the government position when it was just the opposite. He supported the original bill too. He doesn’t know what he is going to support. He will support whatever they tell him from the front bench."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"I didn’t support the original bill. If there was any common sense over there, they would support our position because our position is quite basic."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The member still supports anything the front bench tell him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"We want control and there is going to be control on people who by the necessity of their occupation have to deal with the inside of the human mouth. I was on that committee that heard all of the representations. There’s one that comes back to me over and over again -- and it wasn’t me who asked a particular person -- how does one determine if there is anything wrong on the inside of the mouth? That person, a denturist, said, “I put my flashlight in and I take a look.” Mr. Speaker, at that point common sense told me --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gisborn",
"text": [
"Does the member think he would put his foot in?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"-- that these people should operate under the supervision of a qualified dentist or dental surgeon. I agree some of the denturists are qualified. I agree a number of them have taken a particular course and will pass the examinations that have been set up by this Legislature. But, Mr. Speaker, when there is no formal education programme yet for a denturist --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Whose fault?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"It certainly isn’t my fault. If there’s been such demand for it over the years, where is it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The member is putting his mouth where his money is!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there is no formal education course yet for denturists. There is a very brief upgrading course. There are courses that will take a lab technician or someone who has had a considerable amount of experience with the fabrication of dentures and will put him into a position where he can work under the supervision of a dentist who has been very carefully and very expensively trained to do his job for society. I think that is the essence of the government legislation. That is not to say that at some future time, with a proper control mechanism, a proper education mechanism and a number of things that my colleague from Oxford has talked about, the opportunity for the denture therapist or the denturist or the other people in dentistry to operate independently may not be here.",
"Mr. Speaker, I have about 15 seconds left and I want to make the final crushing point of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Thanks for the warning!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, about an hour and 10 minutes ago this party was told there should be a single rollback on a price and how much better we would feel. It was this party and it was the former health minister, who did achieve a price rollback."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"On what?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"The reason I bring it up is it is in this field. It was through the efforts of the minister and this government and this party that there is now a guaranteed price of $180 for dentures done by a dentist enrolled under the plan that the minister originated. Mr. Speaker, I must concede to the leader of the NDP that the entire party not only does feel better, we have felt better for one long time.",
"Hon. Mr. Timbrell moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 6 o’clock, p.m."
]
}
] |
March 11, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-11/hansard
|
WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION BOARD
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour if he contemplates making further changes in the composition and personnel of the workmen’s Compensation Board and the high administrative echelons of the board?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker. There are still two vacancies on the board. Two commissioners still have to be appointed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Thank you. Can the minister assure us that Mr. Decker will be maintained in his position as --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"He was reappointed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- vice-chairman and that the stories and the rumours that are heard among those concerned with the Workmen’s Compensation Board are in no way true, and that, in fact, he will continue in his important post?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, Mr. Decker has been reappointed for a term of two years. I believe, as a commissioner of the body corporate and not as vice-chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Not as vice-chairman?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary then: Are we to assume that he will be removed from that position?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"There are two vice-chairmen. With the new structure of the board, as members know, we have a vice-chairman for manager, Mr. Speaker, and a vice-chairman for the appeal structure; but Mr. Decker is still a member of the board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"He is a hearing officer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is a commissioner of appeals."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"No, no. He is a member of the corporate body."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I’m sorry, Mr. Speaker, I don’t want to belabour this, but his position has been vice-chairman now for a considerable period of time and that is going to be changed. Is that correct?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Yes, that’s right, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Decker was vice-chairman of the board. Now he is a member of the corporate body, the same as Mr. Hamilton."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Right. A supplementary: Is it the minister’s intention to deal directly with the union of injured workmen -- a group that he is familiar with, as are we, from various communications -- which seems to be becoming more and more the major organized spokesman for those people who feel they have not been dealt with equitably and with justice by the board?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"I think the board has always had a fairly good rapport with the injured workmen’s group, Mr. Speaker. However, in the new structure you will find there will be counsellors appointed as well, counsellors who will not come under the board but will be paid by the Ministry of Labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Thank you. Would the minister consider appointing various persons or the directors of the Injured Workmen’s Consultants as consultants to the board, as one of these bodies outside the board which the board is now able and willing to appoint?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Right now, of course, Mr. Speaker, the board is accepting applications from anyone interested in being appointed to the board. These applicants will be screened, and of course we are looking for experienced people who we feel really will fill that job properly.",
"Coming back to the question of my hon. friend from Windsor West, I cannot say at this time whether we could do this or not. I would think not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Why did the minister turn down the recent request from the union of injured workmen to meet with a large number of their membership, so that they could raise with the Minister of Labour, the enormous range of injustice they continue to feel about their relationship with the Workmen’s Compensation Board? Most of them, as the minister knows, represent immigrant communities in the west end of the city of Toronto, and he categorically refuses to meet with them. Why does he do that as minister? He refused to meet their mass meeting. He said, “Send some representatives to my office.” Why won’t he meet with the range of injured workmen themselves?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have met with this group on several occasions -- at least three that I recall in my offices here at Queen’s Park. The board and the chairman of the Workmen’s Compensation Board have met with them on several occasions as well. These people naturally want to talk about benefits. I am in no position to say anything at this present time. I certainly have to consult the employers’ and employees’ organizations of this province and find out the cost factor of any benefit that perhaps could be added. So I am not in a position at this time to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Has the minister not done that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"I am prepared, and I said so --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is building another host of rage out there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"I have never turned down any delegation in the last 2½ years, Mr. Speaker. I would be quite prepared to meet with them, but there is no point in attending a public assembly --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why not? He is a minister of the Crown. There is tremendous frustration amongst those workers. He should meet with them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"I would be glad to meet with them, and I will -- I have offered to meet with them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Sure, three or four selected ones in his office."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Would the minister agree that the very best kind of a political realization in this is that if the responsible minister, not the appointed chairman, meet with this group, the injured workmen’s union, and on their own ground and under their own circumstances?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Sure, sure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Why not? Surely that is why we have a Legislature and a responsible minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think it is known, even among the injured workmen’s association, that it is not hard to meet the Minister of Labour in this province. I think I made this very clear."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, he refused."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Moreover, when our bill, the Workmen’s Compensation Act, went to the committee stage last year, we made it a point to invite these people to attend; and in fact they did contribute something."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister gave them 24 hours’ notice. He invited them on Friday for a Monday."
]
}
] |
March 8, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-03-08/hansard
|
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