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why did industrial designer think that the power source was important when presenting the working design ? </s> project manager: is that alright now ? okay . sorry ? okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? okay , we 've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design . marketing: could you plug me in ? user interface: marketing: okay . thanks . project manager: all ready to go ? okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so hopefully you 've all been working away , and i 've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . um so i guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the the first one is that um uh the company 's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we do n't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um they 've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the v_c_r_ , d_v_d_ or anything else . i think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it 'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . so um , we 're just gon na keep it simple and it 'll just control the tv . marketing: okay . project manager: and the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . um i 'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . it might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere . marketing: and the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: well that 's the thing , i 'm i 'm not sure um uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say uh something marketing: 'bout putting the fashion in electronics . industrial designer: mm yeah . project manager: yeah , i mean do they is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it 's quite long . um or yeah , just the idea , but i 'm not sure . so that 's something we can discuss as well . so those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the tv , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: nope , we 're all set . project manager: right um , time for presentations then . who would like to go first ? user interface: i 'll go first . project manager: okay , cool . marketing: sure . user interface: alright um , can i st steal this from the back of your laptop ? uh project manager: oh yeah , of course , yeah . g go on ahead . marketing: user interface: so this is the technical functions design . um right to do the um the design i have i 've had a look online , i 've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um i 've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um i would like to ask you guys for um your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . um unfortunately we 're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so project manager: okay . marketing: right . user interface: um , having a look at the existing products , i found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there 's either um a very complicated one that 's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you do n't know what you 're doing . um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . um there 's an example i 'll show you at the end , um sh show you now . uh project manager: alright . user interface: here um the button there and there . this one 's prog . sorry . that one 's perg and that one 's prog , and it does n't really tell you what it does . um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . um it 's a very simple one . it 's got only the basic functions mm but um it 's the same size as the the hard to use one . project manager: oop . user interface: uh it looked a bit clunky . they 're very big and not very much use for buttons . um , and it 's just very hard to access the advanced functions . there 's there 's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . um , my own preferences , i prefer the the clunky one . um it 's very easy to use . um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which i i quite like having on the controls . um so i believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . so , now i 'd like to ask for your preferences . um not sure of how long we 've got , uh project manager: um . well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so i think at at most . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: just a couple of minutes anyway . marketing: m yeah , like a lot of a lot of what i 've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what craig 's just gone over . so in part i could i could give you some of my personal preferences but i could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anyway , project manager: shall we sh well we 'll stick to kind of your area for now . marketing: um we might come to that later . industrial designer: which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right ? . . user interface: um , the clunky one is the one on the right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? larger ? user interface: um i think it 's supposed to be the same size , but um it 's got much fewer buttons . it 's , you know , it 's very spread out marketing: i see , so it 's more just basic . project manager: looks kind of yeah . user interface: and kind of you know marketing: right , okay . user interface: , i get the idea it 'd be sort of about this size . got very few buttons on it and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . sure . project manager: well i think it 's a valid point . i mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that p_r_t_ p p_r_o_t_ thing is incredibly confusing . um so i see i see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you do n't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: i think that 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um , do we have any functions that um we 'd want on it ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean so far i 've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . project manager: mm-hmm . uh-huh . user interface: um they 're just the the very basics you could use for a tv . project manager: uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah . user interface: okay . um , you say that 's a h a required one or a requested one ? would you like marketing: which was that ? user interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um marketing: up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: god , i wou i would say that 's required , marketing: project manager: i mean there 's no way anybody 's gon na buy a remote control these days when if you ca n't actually individually select channels , marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean would anybody disagree with that ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um , what else , uh so do n't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: do n't need to worry about v_c_r_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: we do n't ? no ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: yeah . well i think i think es essentially what we 're doing right now is we 're categorising . we 're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: mm . marketing: is that right ? project manager: yeah . marketing: is that what we 're we 're doing ? user interface: um , yeah . marketing: we 're kind of like sorting them an or are we actually eliminating things we just do n't want the product to have ? user interface: um project manager: i think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and after that we can add things if they 're possible . project manager: okay , right . well , do you wan na maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , so so far , just to recap you 've got volume and channel control and marketing: yep . user interface: there 's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . project manager: right okay . um marketing: well , one one way i would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it 's very clear what they want to do where they go . project manager: mm-hmm yeah . marketing: uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wan na be acc easily accessible . project manager: oka marketing: for example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . maybe they 're un they 're they 're they 're in a little area but covered up um , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . and others that are uh also available industrial designer: marketing: and then others that are concealed . project manager: okay . marketing: something like that . project manager: uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section have i just lost oh no . um , uh do you think maybe that 's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . any of you anything to add to that at all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: i 'll add it later , i guess the presentation . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: um okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . um marketing: sure . project manager: do you wan na user interface: do you want to switch places ? marketing: can this can this pl reach ? can this plug come across ? industrial designer: no . no . project manager: probably not , actually . marketing: no . project manager: marketing: so why do n't i just pick up and move then . project manager: yeah . marketing: here , i 'll just why do n't i just user interface: just just switch them . marketing: mm er , can you go up behind me ? kinda this is so this project manager: bit complicated . it 'd be nice if everything was wireless , would n't it ? marketing: i 'm all in a knot now . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: right . industrial designer: marketing: um . so i can i can say already , i dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there 'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh the things . project manager: oh , like overlap between what you said ? marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: oh well , for all you know that that 'll happen . marketing: which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what i 've already started doing is cr i created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what 's the cumulative effect of what we 've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly i i have a hard time separating separating things completely . project manager: mm hard to know what where your role ends , yeah . marketing: obviously obviously what you 've just told me what you 've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that i 've been project manager: okay . marketing: so how do i how do i get this up ? industrial designer: um function f_ eight . project manager: uh pr yeah , press function and f_ eight , yeah . marketing: okay . okay . alright . so f_ eight ? industrial designer: function , the blue button . next to the control on the left . yeah . marketing: oh , and f_ eight . okay . industrial designer: you have to push it together . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay , i think that that 's doing it now . industrial designer: nope . try that again . marketing: uh , again ? industrial designer: wait . user interface: think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , you wan na oh oh here we go . marketing: um , industrial designer: yep , there we go . project manager: there you go . marketing: okay great . okay . just um before i bring this up what i 'll just say is um what i 've what i 've done is tried to collect some information so that i can then relay this to to you guys so that it 's now becomes a collective thing . and then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what i mean , so . industrial designer: increase that 'cause we ca n't see the project manager: um marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's much better . project manager: right . can you um industrial designer: there you go . project manager: right , okay . marketing: okay . alright . that would be okay . so um does that make sense ? so what i basically got is i just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'cause certainly there 's lots of different information to go through . so um i 'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . uh to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . um and then , as i say uh w we 'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um project manager: industrial designer: bouncing on top . marketing: dunno . okay . um . project manager: yeah . marketing: so this is what i 've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we 'll just read through together . um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . so they find them ugly . most people find them ugly . um the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we 'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay i 'm gon na we 'll look at that in a second . um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . so i guess what we 're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do n't does n't really appeal to them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think what we 're doing is we 're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that 's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . and in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people 's hands . um , frustrations . they get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . um , takes time to learn how to use them . this is uh why i mention when craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it does n't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . if you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . um and i will admit i do n't know what r_s_i_ stands for . project manager: repetitive strain injury . industrial designer: is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: uh , no , that did not come up at all . um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . i also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . so i dunno if that 's possible we might consider getting into it . um . and and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wan na sell and market this , i think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that 's fashionable and sleek and trendy . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um people uh additionally are n't are n't liking the appearance of their products , so we wan na think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like . project manager: okay . marketing: you know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics . project manager: so want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , so you know just c looking at what what craig um craig 's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wan na do is try and um separate the different things that we wan na include in this . so if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . you know , it 's like like i find a lot of tvs these days , something really like about 'em is if you wan na just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there 's just like tons of features you go through . project manager: mm . so it you wan na group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . that 's s that 's sort of the um but i i 'm my hope here is that i 'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: um i i have n't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but not let that confine us technologically . project manager: okay . right . marketing: so alright ? any um comments on all of that ? project manager: well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we 're gon na be um who 's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: that 's uh project manager: um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: i mean marketing: where 's the money , maybe . project manager: yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . well i if if like twenty five euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: yeah . and who watches tv . mm-hmm . project manager: well i do n't i 'm not really sure how much that will retail at . marketing: mm . project manager: but you want it 's somebody who 's not gon na just use the remote that comes with their telly , i suppose , they 're gon na actually go out and buy one . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , who do you think we 're aiming this at ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think it 'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'cause twenty five euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: it 's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , i think . industrial designer: is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: yeah , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . kind of . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know how much ? i dunno i guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: okay . industrial designer: like a simple replacement , right . i mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wan na go out and get , project manager: yeah . yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: this this kinda touches on your comments there , david . these are the age groups which we have information on industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: okay marketing: just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on tv equipment is . project manager: okay . marketing: mostly focused around the twenty five age group . project manager: yeah , so do you think we 're we 're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: sort of young professional , kind of . mm-hmm project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: um project manager: um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? what what do you think , craig ? user interface: well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? sort of the the older group . marketing: uh , yeah , it 's the yep . user interface: uh f marketing: it does it does fit with the market that we 're sort of identifying , project manager: n yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: i think we are gon na have to narrow it down , to say let 's target these people and give them what they want marketing: okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . marketing: yeah . sure . sure . project manager: so um anybody anything there to add marketing: yeah . project manager: just kind of young professionals , uh th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it 's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . so we could say that was our target . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i i think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because that 's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: you know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think people who are maybe about i would n't say thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: so marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: people who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: yeah . so they 'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . mm . project manager: that that 's that 's a good point . marketing: yeah . project manager: um okay , so um industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition marketing: if we can . industrial designer: i i think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because um , based on what you 've go y everybody 's saying , right , you want something simple . project manager: okay . why is that ? industrial designer: you want basic stuff and you want something that 's easy to use . speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use . marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: um , marketing: like if you want it on industrial designer: but what i 'm saying is that we 're we 're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we 're gon na say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: so maybe we should marketing: sure . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i suggest that we think about speech recognition , marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: anyway it 's a it 's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we do n't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: sure . yep . project manager: uh okay , well do you wan na um give us your presentation industrial designer: okay , sure . project manager: and then then we can i do n't know marketing: yep . project manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we 're marketing: yeah , it 's good well it 's good to get ideas out while they 're fresh in mind . project manager: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: um project manager: oh it 's something that 's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that 's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: not project manager: um . marketing: yeah . and not losing . and also it helps in terms of people not losing this , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know they they 're saying oh it 's i lose it in the couch . project manager: yeah . marketing: like we 're kind of what we 're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: that they user interface: i reckon one problem with speech recognition is um i 've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one was n't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . industrial designer: project manager: really ? user interface: channel up . marketing: right . user interface: marketing: oh really , you 've seen one before . project manager: do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it 's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: um i think it 'd probably quite expensive to put in . industrial designer: sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad . project manager: mm . course not . industrial designer: thanks . cool , project manager: there you go . industrial designer: um . okay . um . project manager: right . industrial designer: well this is just the working design um . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well this is just what how i would go about it . um i guess i try to define like what we 're doing now , try to define what we 're trying to get done . um i think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is . marketing: right . industrial designer: we 've used it , we 're familiar with it , but we 're we ca n't n we have n't narrowed down um exactly what the things we 're trying to fulfil , like besides the basics , i think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and i just the idea is just to get everybody to um i usually have a have have a design that 's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . but i guess everybody does have some idea , so i do n't think um there 's a need for that . um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so i 'll go into the diagram first . it just explains how the process goes through , from a project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . um okay , you need some power source . 'kay , a battery or something , to keep it going . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like for example , voice recognition , right . that might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that 's one perhaps constraint there . um th okay , the basic thing is there 's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: you know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button a_ , so i will do something with button a_ . so maybe button a_ is the power button , okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . um and i think that 's about it in terms of my design um . it 's fairly general , um and i guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you 're thinking , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it 's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do n't have enough power . so it 's not really a constraint in that sense , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i mean these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: what the technology has to do . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so i guess the rest of it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think we should maybe you you wan na go back to what the functions are ? i think that 's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: uh . marketing: 'kay . project manager: well , do you wan do you wan na finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yeah , w i 'm done . project manager: are you are you all done ? industrial designer: more or less . yeah . ps oh , it 's just putting the rest of it into words , but it 's essentially the same thing . marketing: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know , stuff like that . project manager: okay . marketing: right . industrial designer: um project manager: right . marketing: and like on the means b industrial designer: i guess this would be marketing: since we 're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: alright , what 's what i in is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: um , these these are n't technology options in that sense . this is just um marketing: right . industrial designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed . marketing: the basic principle of project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: for example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . industrial designer: broken down into more components , right , marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which you have a microphone , the v_r_ and stuff like that . project manager: oh . so this just show how we 're kind of modularising the whole thing . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh yep . yep . so each component represents one function , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and the power are things that you wo n't have to care about . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we 'll add more functionality to it . project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the tv for example . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , um are we gon na restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: because that 's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . right . project manager: okay . marketing: right . project manager: well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so i th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it industrial designer: yep . project manager: um because i mean it it 's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: there might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we 're talking about voice recognition . um if somebody 's gon na h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . project manager: mm-hmm industrial designer: i it project manager: oh , yeah . industrial designer: you may not require that , marketing: right . industrial designer: but you know , um it 's it 's marketing: right . industrial designer: it 's something very natural , i guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it . project manager: okay . industrial designer: then you need to send the signal out , so because if you 're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the tv 's at that chair , and i 'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . project manager: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense , there 's not really a restriction project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . marketing: right . industrial designer: not so much further down . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: and um just a clarification before we finish this . uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: there 's there 's not much specific specific information , project manager: w industrial designer: but i think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you 're just targeting traditional devices . because infra-red is something which everybody has . project manager: yeah . w well well we 've um marketing: okay . project manager: in the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the tv , industrial designer: marketing: just to tv , okay . project manager: so that 's what we should do for now i think . something i was wondering about was the power . marketing: okay . project manager: um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? i mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: there 's a there 's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: okay , from from a from a component point of view there 's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: uh-huh . uh-huh . industrial designer: um and then there 's probably the fact that you need another physical component . you need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: or you need to get the user to plug it in . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , industrial designer: um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . project manager: so yeah . industrial designer: but unless the controller 's gon na consume a lot of batteries , like he 's gon na run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then i do n't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . project manager: okay , so just stick to to regular marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . um , right . so basically the um i 'm just gon na just recap uh what i said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we 're gon na aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product 's gon na do . marketing: okay . project manager: so um just to recap on marketing: okay . project manager: are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it 's gon na do . marketing: yeah , that 's good . project manager: do you wan na recap on that , craig ? user interface: um . project manager: user interface: i think we just say that it was gon na be the the most basic stuff possible . um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel . project manager: okay , right . user interface: ta . marketing: and is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gon na eliminate those ? user interface: um i think we include mute , but apart from that um i think we just we 'll go for the simpleness . industrial designer: okay , i think project manager: okay . marketing: okay . r is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: yeah , it 's as optional functions . user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause what what i 'm i 'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it 's does n't have that . project manager: okay . marketing: i dunno if that 'd be a problem . industrial designer: another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? um maybe i could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be audio controls , marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but i think that um from a manufacturer 's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a tv is something they see and something they hear , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um it 's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . i mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: yeah . marketing: right . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let 's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it 's basic , or it 's non-basic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean it might help with the visualisation . marketing: 'kay , okay . like that . okay . industrial designer: and it would actually help with the component build as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm okay , great . project manager: um , okay well i got ta kind of got five minutes to wrap up now . um next thing we 're doing is having lunch . whoohoo . um and then we 're gon na have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . um so i 'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . um so uh i guess just to just to confirm that we know what we 're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: um for uh our industrial designer , you 're gon na be thinking about the components concept . um user interface designer gon na be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you 're gon na be thinking about trend watching . um and you 'll all get specific instructions as well . so um i dunno , just just to to ask now if you 've got anything else you 've thought about while we 've been talking . marketing: project manager: um , do you wan na start with david . anything else to say at all ? industrial designer: mm no , not really . project manager: no , okay . andrew ? marketing: um yeah , just i just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we 'll u use this idea david 's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we 're talking about this . project manager: yeah , yeah i think that 's definitely a good idea . industrial designer: mm . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: shall we do that , then ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay , great . user interface: um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: um things like on off . because they do n't have anything to do with what you see . i me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you know , um so um project manager: okay . user interface: um marketing: and and channel . industrial designer: and channel . because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . marketing: right . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: not on off video . although you do n't turn off the video on your tv , but um you might wan na you know turn off the sound , project manager: okay . industrial designer: say you wan na pick up the phone , there 's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device . project manager: okay . industrial designer: device is basically anything which we ca n't categorise , right . we put it out . project manager: okay , so you 're gon na have um audio which is gon na be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . you you put that into audio . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then video is anything that you can see . project manager: okay , and then visual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . yep . project manager: and then just actual device things , marketing: colour , yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: like what channel you 're watching , turning on an off , marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: stuff like that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , um marketing: and then k i suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . sure , okay . okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um even even if it does n't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it 's easy to use , i think that 's one thing that um and i guess from the component point of view it 's easy to build as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'cause things are like fixed . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so yeah , i guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it 's got ta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we 're we 're , you know , targeting this at . um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: you know , things like that . um , so i guess i guess that 's it . that 's the meeting over . marketing: great . project manager: whoohoo . marketing: then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . user interface: { vocalsound }

industrial designer mentioned that the power source would tell how long the device would last and how far it could transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions . industrial designer also mentioned that in the general design , the purpose of this was not to have a constraint in the sense of adding more power .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call the meeting to order . welcome to the third meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . pursuant to the order of reference of monday , april20 , the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements , allowing members to present petitions , and questioning ministers of the crown , including the prime minister , in respect of the covid-19 pandemic . i understand there 's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the canadian armed forces who lost their lives last wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of greece . we 'll return to order . colleagues , we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the covid-19 pandemic . as we do , canadians , like everyone around the world , are doing their best to live their lives until things improve . meanwhile , as we look towards the future , i believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history . at this very moment , the dominion carillonneur , dr. andrea mccrady , is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the netherlands by the canadian forces . in may 1945 , canadian forces played a major role in liberating the dutch people from nazi occupation . may 5 is now a national holiday in the netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries . today 's meeting is taking place by video conference . the proceedings will be made available via the house of commons website . please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee . let me remind you that , as in the house or in committee , members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings . in order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings , i will outline a few rules . interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the house . at the bottom of your screen , you can choose floor , english or french . as you have seen , i change as i am speaking . i have now switched over to english in order to speak english . if you look at the bottom , you have a little flag that indicates whether it 's english or french , and that 's how we will be speaking . it makes it easier . that was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session . i understand that there are no statements by ministers . we can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions . in addition , to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented , the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee . i thank all the members for their usual co-operation . thank you all . now we 'll proceed to presenting petitions . our first petition comes from the honourable member for sherwood parkfort saskatchewan , mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today . the first petition is with respect to government bill c-7 . petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime . it includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person 's consent . the petitioners urge the house of commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia , and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people . this would require that bill to be amended or not passed . the second petition is with respect to senate public bill s-204 . this is on organ harvesting and trafficking . petitioners call on members of the house , and hopefully the senate as well , to support bill s-204 , which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent . it would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking . thank you very much . the chair: thank you . i want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us . if you do n't have one , please talk to your it ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible . the reason for them is not so much for what you hear , but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult . part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset , which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members . now we go to the member for beacheseast york , mr. erskine-smith . mr. nathaniel erskine-smith (beacheseast york, lib.): mr. chair , i had to learn how to tie my tie all over again . it 's been so long . i want to thank jenna robar , who 's led this petition e-2453 . the petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in canada and that 2019 , last year , was declared by the un to be the year of indigenous languages . they draw attention to article 13 of the undrip and to the trc 's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. fundamentally , they call upon the government of canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of canada and to have each language recognized nationally , with implementations on regional and provincial levels , acknowledging that many regions have different languages . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): mr. chair , i am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents , myles lynch of st. andrews west in my riding . myles made history as the first canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants . myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years , and he 's only 22 years old . myles created a documentary called 8 thousand myles , which had a few showings in my riding . it documented his journey across canada . one thing myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation . myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue . i mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them . i am proud to have this certified today , with 1,318 signatures , asking the standing committee on health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program . i give kudos to myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system . kudos to myles . i 'm proud to present this petition today . mr. peter julian (new westminsterburnaby, ndp): mr. chair , i 'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of toronto , mississauga and brampton , ontario , who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of canadians who have signed similar petitions . given that canadians are living through unprecedented , catastrophic climate events , and at the same time our society , as you know , is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of canadian families are only $ 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing , these petitioners are calling on the government of canada to support motion m-1 , a made-in-canada green new deal that i am presenting in front of the house of commons . it calls on canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency , and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , it 's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from courtenayalberni . they are concerned , obviously , about fentanyl-related deaths . over 12,000 canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources . they cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective ; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs ; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl . they are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources , with proper measures and bylaws , will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs . problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption . they are calling on the government of canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the emergencies act . they are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession , as has been done in portugal and other countries , and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally , recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source . mr. brad vis (missionmatsquifraser canyon, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of canadians in my riding with the government 's approach to firearms legislation and regulation . the petition highlights that the liberal government 's december 5 , 2019 , speech from the throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation ; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in canadian law ; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions ; that the experts , including chiefs of police , agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety ; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into canada from the united states ; and that the liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs , drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities . the petitioners in missionmatsquifraser canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners ; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed , rcmp-vetted canadians ; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement , on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs , on mental health and on providing the canada border services agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively . the chair: very good . that 's all for petitions today . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair . ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking . i want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly , not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters . we start the question period with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in canada and its impacts , the prime minister is deceiving canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners . why ? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): mr.chair , i feel that all canadians were affected by the massacre in nova scotia . once again , too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief . during the last election campaign , we promised to ban military-style assault weapons , and that is exactly what we have done . we will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control . it is a shame that , once more , the conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i understand the prime minister 's reply . however , i would like to know whether he considers that , with this order in council , organized crime , street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons . right hon. justin trudeau: this is indeed only a first step , but it is an important one . we are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities , to strengthen the control at our borders , and to implement other measures . i am pleased to hear the hon . member speak of those measures , because we are going to work together in the house to strengthen gun control . i hope that the conservative party will be part of that discussion in a positive way , in order to keep canadians safe . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i can simply say to the prime minister that the conservative party has always been committed to battling criminals , not law-abiding citizens . speaking of criminals , we know that , even before the pandemic , the prime minister had asked the parole board of canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly . now we are learning that , because of the pandemic , some releases are happening very quickly . the minister of public safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older , but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released . can the prime minister give us an explanation ? right hon. justin trudeau: the protection , the safety and the health of all canadians are important for the government . this is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected . we have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases , but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for canadians . we have managed to find the right balance . we must protect canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe . those two things go hand-in-hand . mr. pierre paul-hus: so is the prime minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience covid-19 within the walls ? right hon. justin trudeau: there are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have one minute left . mr. pierre paul-hus: thank you , mr.chair . the chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus . australia asked for an in-depth investigation , but has received threats from the communist regime . is canada going to stand by its allies in the five eyes and demand that the chinese government be completely transparent ? right hon. justin trudeau: we continue to stand in solidarity with our allies , including the five eyes , as they have stood in solidarity with canada in terms of the two canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in china . in the coming months and years , we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic , including questions that are important for china . at the same time , we are going to work hard to ensure that all canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic . the chair: we now move to mr.blanchet . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am sorry that i do not have my official headset . i was elsewhere , and i did not bring it with me . i hope that you can still hear me properly . for some days , discussions have been going on between people from the bloc qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in quebec and canada . the gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $ 25per week , or $ 110per month . by the way , i hate the term `` old age security . i prefer `` senior security . the discussion has been going on for some time and it 's a proposal that we made in the election campaign . we are asking for it to be done at this point , at least temporarily . parliament stopped sitting in the middle of march . we are now in may , and seniors still have nothing . they are impatient themselves , and we spend a good part of our days answering them . given that impatience , i realized i should not be the one answering them , it should be the prime minister . so here is my question for the prime minister : what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in quebec and canada in the very short term ? right hon. justin trudeau: clearly , seniors need support and significant services from us because of covid-19 . our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of covid-19 . then we announced different measures , including measures for seniors . the most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the gst , which will help them very quickly . we have also reduced by 25 % the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds . we have also channelled $ 9million through the united way , to help the most vulnerable seniors . absolutely , i recognize that more must be done . i am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians , including those in the bloc qubcois , to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term . in terms of the pandemic , they have concerns about their physical security , but also about their financial security . we will have more to say about this soon . mr. yves-franois blanchet: in the last few hours , the prime minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties , including the bloc qubcois , on a completely different matter . we are very open to that discussion , but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of quebec . the cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors , as it has for everyone else . it 's true for all seniors over 65years old , of course . the current old age pension represents less than half of the canada emergency student benefit . it represents less than one third of the basic canada emergency response benefit . seniors in my constituency , as in any other of the 338constituencies , are asking what we are doing . they are asking how there can be nothing for them . when will there be something for them ? i want to be able to give them an answer of some kind . what is the prime minister 's answer ? i will repeat it to them . right hon. justin trudeau: there will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors , particularly the most vulnerable seniors . we recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone . that is why we have to do better for our seniors . there are horror stories , whether about the chslds , or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country . far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief . there are seniors who are alone , seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again . we have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war . now we have to fight for them in their homes . that is exactly what we are going to do . the chair: we 'll go to the next question . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , every day i hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head . instead of making sure that canadians get the help they need , the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks . if the prime minister wo n't commit to a universal benefit , will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we knew , when this pandemic hit , that we needed to help canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast , particularly the most vulnerable . that is why we moved forward rapidly with the canada emergency response benefit , which has helped over seven million individual canadians and has made a huge difference . we had to move very quickly to get this money out to people , and that is exactly what we did . we also recognized that there would be a need to do more . that is why since that moment , we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well . we have more to do , but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government continues to leave people behind . i spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year . she recently found a job and a place to live . however , because she did n't make $ 5,000 last year , when the pandemic hit she did n't qualify for any benefits . she did n't qualify , but she is one of the people who need it the most . i 'm wondering why the prime minister does n't think she deserves our support . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift canadians out of poverty and will support them . over the past five years , we 've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country , and we 've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we 're doing . we will continue to . we 've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable . at the same time , we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million canadians who successfully receive the cerb . we recognize there 's more to do , and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need , but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help . if a company is cheating the public , using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share , it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits . other countries , like poland , denmark and france , have made this commitment , and if they can do it , so can we . the prime minister said one thing one day and another the next . will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens , it will not receive public funds ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the measures we 've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs , regardless of the companies they work for . it is a shame to hear the ndp , which used to be the party of workers , choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for . we have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers . that is not help for the companies . that is help for the workers , and that has been our focus all the way through : ordinary canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of covid-19 . that has been our priority , and that is what canadians need right now . of course , we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion . we spent a billion dollars to strengthen our ms. laurel collins : mr. chair , can i ask my last question ? right hon . justin trudeau : we will continue to do that . the chair: i 'm just going to pause the time for a moment . i want to remind honourable members that we 're trying to stay within committee rules , which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time . i just want to remind our members of that . i 'll go back to ms. collins . she has about 45 seconds left , and hopefully that 's about half and half for the question and the answer . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins: thanks so much , mr. chair . my last question is about housing and homelessness . my community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit , and now people who are living on the streets or in parks do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home . in victoria , the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people , at least for the short term , in local hotels . will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term , stable housing ? the chair: the right honourable prime minister , in 25 seconds or less , please . right hon. justin trudeau: yes , mr. chair , we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $ 40 billion toward housing . working with partners , we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country , but there is more to do . we are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments . we recognize that during this pandemic there 's even more to do for vulnerable canadians , and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens . mr. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): a point of order , mr.chair . the chair: order . mr.godin has a point of order . mr. jol godin: mr.chair , i can not hear the french interpretation . could we please check so that i can hear in french what the prime minister is saying ? the chair: okay . can we check that ? mr. jol godin: thank you . right hon. justin trudeau: i can try speaking english . i believe i was on the english tab , as is important . are you hearing the translation now ? the chair: that is exactly what the issue was . i just want to point that out to all the members . i 'm speaking english right now and i 'm on the english toggle at the bottom of the screen . it does create a bit of a disjoint when we 're speaking , but it 's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone . the next question will go to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): mr. chair , as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum , i want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash . i know that i speak for all parliamentarians when i extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones . mr. chair , i want to raise with the prime minister an issue that i 've raised several times before , and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program . there is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country . last year , they acquired another company . those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy , but because of rules that the government designed , together they do not . even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible , so far they 've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program . as a result , thousands of jobs are threatened . will the prime minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for brandt tractor all across the country ? right hon. justin trudeau: i thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding . as i told him when we spoke directly , finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding . we recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy , but i know that finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it , so that the workers in his community can get the support they need . hon. andrew scheer: the prime minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well , so we 're hoping for some good news . just flagging the time and date , it is well into may now and important decisions have to be made in very short order . there are other aspects of the government 's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks . the plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70 % of their revenue . as provinces start to open up , many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35 % or 45 % of regular revenues . they will not be able to access these programs and , in many cases , there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work . will the prime minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country , and that 's exactly what we did . we 're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country . i am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work . we are getting closer to that point , but we are not there yet . we are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis . as different provinces move forward towards reopening , as we look at different paths forward , i know that i will be able to count on all members in the house and , indeed , on canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way . that will be good to work on together once we get there . the chair: we have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , no one is disputing the need to move quickly . we are now in may , though , and these programs have been announced for weeks . canadians have been accessing them . the problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well , but we 're also going to see an additional challenge , where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit , who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours , are faced with a hard cap of $ 1,000 a month before they lose the cerb . conservatives are proposing a progressive system , a more flexible system , where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored . again , will the prime minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work ? the chair: i believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up , but i 'll give the right honourable prime minister about 30 seconds to answer that , please . right hon. justin trudeau: thank you , mr. chair . our priority was getting support for canadians right across the country with the cerb , with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students , for seniors , for farmers and for agricultural producers . that has been our priority , and that 's what we have worked on . i hear the concerns that the conservative party has around disincentives . we are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen , to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it . however , our overarching priority was allowing canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home , care for their loved ones , buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic . that 's exactly what we did . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu now . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): mr. chair , seniors in my riding are struggling . we 've heard the prime minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down , rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing . he 's been saying for weeks that in the coming days , something would be announced for seniors . the fact is that the liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security . which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors ? hon. deb schulte (minister of seniors): mr. chair , after a lifetime of hard work , of course canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security . covid-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors . they have a greater need for services and supports . happily , their pensions and their benefits are still flowing , unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs , but it 's still tough . we introduced measures ms. marilyn gladu : which day ? hon . deb schulte : at the beginning of april . people received a gst credit , a supplementary payment that was $ 400 on average for single seniors and $ 600 for couples . that was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: yes , mr. chair . i think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question . i would just ask the minister to keep to that . i would like to go to my second question . the chair: i want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible . ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: very good , mr. chair . my riding is on the border of canada and the u.s. we see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the u.s. and actually in the interpretation of different cbsa agents . while we have americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish , individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined . we have people who have purchased masts from canadian producers for their boats , and who want to come and pick them up , who are not being allowed to do that . people trying to sell plasma into the u.s. are being denied . when will they clarify the rules to the cbsa agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce , including individual commerce , is understood ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by cbsa to stop all non-essential travel . those measures have been very successful . we 've seen a 99 % reduction in international travel coming into canada . at the same time , we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach canada and we could put groceries on our shelves . we also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border . we have provided cbsa with clarification . their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent . i 've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases . when we receive those inquiries , we follow up immediately . i want to assure the member that we 'll continue to do that . the work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of canadians , and we will continue with that work . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses . we see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outei , cerb , the wage subsidy , etc . what is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , first , let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult . the intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge . we are looking at ways that we can ensure that the canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application . more than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans , representing over $ 20 billion . we are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process , recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact , and we will have more to say on that . the chair: the next question will go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , this is my first appearance , so i hope you can hear me okay . the chair: we can hear you fine . please proceed . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . it 's good to see everyone 's faces . on april 3 , the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters . since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in prince edward island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time , but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled , giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors . this double standard is severely unfair and atlantic harvesters are furious , as demonstrated during the protests on the canso causeway yesterday . when will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 , 24 and 26 ? hon. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): mr. chair , when making decisions with regard to when seasons open , a number of factors are taken into account . they are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season , what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season , as well socio-economic impacts on the area . we 're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions . we do not make them lightly . they are difficult decisions to make . in the decisions we 've made around the gulf , one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date . that is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of may . we 're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water . we 're looking forward to the product that they bring in . we 'll continue do everything we can to support the industry . mr. mel arnold: thank you , minister . i believe the time the chair: excuse me . no , the hon . minister had another 15 seconds coming to her . i 'd like to remind hon . members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking . i 'll do my best to try to keep it about level . maybe i 'll start muting if it 's necessary , but interrupting is not going to solve anything . mr. arnold , i 'll let you continue . you have three minutes and nine seconds left . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . west coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in british columbia , especially in coastal communities , and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government . last year , the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science . a year later , the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable , science-based solutions to conserve b.c . 's public fisheries . does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support canada 's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , the fishery is important in every coastal community . i recognize its value for our economy , as well as what it means to our coastal communities . that 's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we 're doing everything we possibly can to support them . during these extremely difficult times , we 're working on measures with the fishery in b.c. , as well as on the atlantic coast and eastern quebec , to make sure that we 're delivering for them and that all of the issues they 're having are being addressed . the chair: mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , canada 's seniors , especially those on basic incomes , are being hard hit by the covid-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services . seniors require adequate caregiver supports , physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security . why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? will the government support canada 's senior citizens ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds or less , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to assure my hon . colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time . we have provided a gst credit supplement of $ 400 for single seniors and $ 600 for couples , for low- and modest-income seniors . we have also ensured that the canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to covid-19 . we 've made them eligible . the chair: we 'll go back to mr. arnold . mr. arnold , you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . on april 23 , my colleagues and i called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in canada 's essential food supply chains . what has the government done to match students and other canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors , including those in the fish and seafood sector ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , we 're doing all we can to make sure , using our existing employment programs , that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer . we know that this is going to be really tough , especially in areas like agriculture , so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government , and a number of different initiatives including canada summer jobs , which i 'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days . the chair: now we 'll go on to the next question from ms. harder . ms. rempel , do you have a point of order ? hon. michelle rempel garner (calgary nose hill, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . with my colleague , mr. arnold , it 's the second time that i note you 've threatened to cut off a conservative microphone . i 'm just wondering , given that this is n't the house of commons and it 's structured as a committee , what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of parliament using a mute button . it seems a little dictatorial , and i was just wondering whether you could clarify that , based on the standing orders . the chair: i do n't think i threatened to use mute , but thank you for bringing that up . i am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal , so that there are no interruptions on either side . that 's how we 're going to continue . i did n't use the mute . i did it verbally and i think that 's a little more civil way of doing it . i hope you approve . i 'm not asking you to comment on that . we 'll go over to ms. harder . thank you . hon. michelle rempel garner: but , on the point of order , mr. chair , you actually , to me , last week , and to mr. arnold , did suggest that you were going to use the mute button . the chair: i believe that if we take everything out and go over it .... bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where i threatened , and we 'll go over it , but i do n't think this is the venue to do that . if you want to bring forward a point of order , i 'm all in favour of it . hon. michelle rempel garner: well , i am bringing forward a point of order . i 've asked you to clarify the chair: very good . we 'll look into it and get back to you . thank you . we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government 's initiative to put a gun ban in place . does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in nova scotia ? the chair: the honourable minister in 15 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: we have heard from health professionals , women 's rights organizations , victims groups and the police and our unions . they 're all very supportive of the government 's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people . ms. rachael harder: it 's interesting that the minister is misleading canadians in that comment because the canadian association of chiefs of police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort , that it actually will not protect canadians . so i 'd be curious . how many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the liberal government ? hon. bill blair: yes , let 's actually quote what the police have said . the ontario association of chiefs of police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles . the chief in toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety , and the canadian association of police chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles . ms. rachael harder: the answer to that question is zero . absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the liberals ' legislation that 's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms . can the prime minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes ? the chair: the honourable minister in 25 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: yes , to be very clear , the order in council actually is targeted at weapons , weapons that were designed for military use , and in their design and in their intent , to kill people , they 've actually been used in this country , at cole polytechnique ; in moncton ; at a quebec city mosque ; in fredericton ; at mayerthorpe and most recently in nova scotia . these are weapons that really have no place .... they are being used and have been used in canada and around the world to commit mass murder , and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: thank you . now i understand the prime minister has his food prepared for him at 24 sussex drive and then it 's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives . contrary to his privileged understanding , food actually originates with farmers . now , they 're in a crisis right now , which means that regular canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs . the canadian federation of agriculture requested $ 2.6 billion to help them out . today , the government announced one-tenth of this amount . why does n't the prime minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep canada fed ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , let me assure the hon . member that our government cares very , very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country . let me just say i am grateful to all the farmers , like my dad , who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding . we , as canadians , are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower , and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers . ms. rachael harder: i 'm confused as to why the prime minister did n't take my question , and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister does n't feel it 's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today . when we have farmers who produce for canadians on a daily basis and they 're asking some serious and some very important questions , and we do n't even have a minister who 's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation , that 's shameful . several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of covid-19 and , as a result , farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected . cattle producers in my region are spending more than $ 60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen . the amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket . it 's a crumb . when will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in canada ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just say that i feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me , the deputy prime minister , answer questions about agriculture . i am actually very proud to speak up for canada 's amazing farmers , for our country 's amazing ranchers , for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers . i feel so close to our farmers . i love them and our government supports them . today , we announced $ 252 million of support for our producers . they need it . they deserve it . we 're here for them . the chair: now we 'll go on to mr. bezan . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week . i 'm sure that all members of the house stand shoulder to shoulder with the families , with the crew of the hmcs fredericton and , indeed , with the entire canadian armed forces community during this time of grief . can the minister of national defence give us an update as to the cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of greece last week ? hon. harjit s. sajjan (minister of national defence): mr. chair , the deaths of the canadian armed forces members are felt by all , and especially the families . our condolences go out to them . our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them , and that 's exactly what we are doing . currently , the investigation is ongoing . our investigative team is currently on the ground . i actually spoke with the italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that 's required . the chair: i 'm afraid i 'm going to have to cut you off there , if we 're going by the rules that were pointed out by the house . mr. bezan . mr. james bezan: thank you , mr. chair . through you to minister sajjan again , i 'm going to change gears a bit . i know that back in early january , military intelligence through cf intelligence command was reporting , through the chain of command , the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in wuhan . on what date was he , as minister of national defence , given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in china ? hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , we have been following this crisis from day one . we work with our five eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort , right from the beginning . i can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information . obviously , i ca n't discuss the intelligence in this forum , but i can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information . mr. james bezan: minister sajjan , we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in national defence . it was reported in the media that in early january the hierarchy within the canadian armed forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak . i asked you , minister , when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence . hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , i get regular briefings on intelligence . yes , i was made aware of this in january . as with all our intelligence , we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies . one thing i can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet . mr. james bezan: what was that timeline ? from the time you were first told , minister sajjan , about the coronavirus outbreak in wuhan , what did you do with that intelligence ? when did you give it to the prime minister or to minister hajdu as the minister of health ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me say that our government 's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of canadian intelligence agencies throughout . we have been working on this from very early on . on january 2 , phac first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation . on january 14 , it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities . in january , the prime minister convened a meeting of the incident response group , and in january we increased screening at all major airports . all of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community , and of course our work with our five eyes , nato and norad allies . mr. james bezan: i want to come back the chair: we now move to mr.ste-marie . mr. james bezan: i still have 30 seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): can i go ahead , mr.chair ? the chair: yes , go ahead . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . in an interview with grald fillion , tax expert andr lareau , who specializes in tax havens , pointed out that $ 350billion canadian is parked in just 12tax havens . companies are using tax havens for financing , operations and intellectual property activities . mr.lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it . he said that it 's time for canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $ 250-billion deficit , and that if it does n't act now to change things , it never will . is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , as soon as we took office , in 2015 , our government made cracking down on tax evaders in canada and abroad a priority . that 's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort . i realize that my fellow member is impatient , but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue . under our leadership , in three years , the canada revenue agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the conservatives were in power . as we speak , the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion . i repeat , this is a top priority for our government . mr. gabriel ste-marie: you 're right , i am very impatient , because whenever i bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally , the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters . i am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies . since parliament began sitting virtually , it 's been mentioned a few times that denmark and poland have decided to deal with the issue . even france 's finance minister , bruno lemaire , said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance . we hear theprime minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers , so i 'd like to cite another examplebanks . the government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities , and yet , the five major banks in toronto , alone , are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens . this is unacceptable . this has nothing to do with wages for workers , and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets , cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after . is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , our government is taking unprecedented steps through the canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by covid-19 . this is largely a trust-based program , and we will not tolerate abuse . anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences . applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim . what 's more , any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount . anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225 % of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison . the canada revenue agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim . as i mentioned , cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government . the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds to ask your question , and about the same for the answer . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . that 's an excellent answer , but it has nothing to do with my question . the minister of finance has the power to fix the problem now . although completely immoral , the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the income tax regulations . through simple regulatory amendments , the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse . we are going to have a $ 250-billion deficit to pay off , and everyone is going to have to chip in , including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment , our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job , and we are starting to see results . i set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations . we tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program . we signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries . we audit four jurisdictions a year . we also work closely with the oecd . the chair: we now move on to another member . the next questioner is mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , i 'm sharing my time slot with the member for surreynewton . in the wake of covid-19 , so many canadians have been affected in so many ways . financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country . i 'm proud of how the government of canada has been beside canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported canadians when they needed it most . in bonavistaburintrinity and across our country , our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts . last week , my colleague , the minister of fisheries and oceans , announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing canada 's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process , store , package and distribute healthy , high-quality products on to the plates of canadians . the fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures . they are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices . they are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times . when can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters ' requests for assistance ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague from bonavistaburintrinity for keeping us well aware of what 's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors . we know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities , our coastal communities . it 's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that 's why we want to be there to support them . we 've already taken steps by making sure that the cerb is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers . as well , we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers ei are also able to qualify for it . we also have made an investment of $ 62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of covid-19 . we know there is more to do . we know that the harvesters need support . we are working with our partners across industry to make sure we 're hearing what their major concerns are . we know they are going to have some very challenging times this season . we will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days . the chair: the next questioner is mr. dhaliwal . mr. sukh dhaliwal (surreynewton, lib.): mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: we have a point of order . mr. kurek . mr. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): sorry , but there seems to be an issue with the audio . i 'm unable to hear the honourable member . the chair: it is very faint . mr. dhaliwal , can you check your audio to make sure everything 's working well ? mr. sukh dhaliwal: it was the chair: there we go . it 's fine now . i think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it was n't being picked up . there you go . very good . mr. sukh dhaliwal: mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers , transport companies to warehousing . with provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy , there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen . with so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions , and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum , how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work . one of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories . that 's why i was so pleased that last week the prime minister , together with all the first ministers of the country , was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart . this is so important because , as my colleague has pointed out , all of our business , our economic activity , happens across the country . it happens across provincial and territorial boundaries . i would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country . they belong to different parties , but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside . we have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus , and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen canada . thank you . the chair: the next question goes to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson (edmonton strathcona, ndp): thank you , mr. chair , for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing . i 'd like to start by asking about supports for workers . in alberta , meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all covid-19 cases . the government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with covid-19 . now , two workers are dead , at least six more are in intensive care and covid-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities . there are over 1,400 cases . yesterday , employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed . on march 27 , regarding the cerb , the minister of finance said that if workers do n't feel comfortable in their work , if they decide to stay home , they can apply for the benefit , yet the website says differently . will the minister guarantee that every canadian receiving cerb , ei or the cesb will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to covid-19 ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me thank the member , first of all , for her really very important question . i think all of us share the concern for canada 's essential workers who are keeping us safe , putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions . when it comes to the cargill plant , this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in . my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant . the decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities . to the question my colleague asked about workers , it is absolutely the case that no canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe , and it is also very much the case that any canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home . this is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: we will go on to ms. mcpherson for the next question . ms. heather mcpherson: i just want to be clear , because i 'm not a hundred per cent sure that i got an answer in that response , so i 'll try one more time . knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work , can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work , they will be able to access the cerb , or was the minister of finance incorrect when he spoke on march 27 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'm sorry , but i was struggling with my mute button . i apologize . let me just be very clear . no canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions . ms. heather mcpherson: but then could they access the cerb ? hon. chrystia freeland: in a time of coronavirus that is even more the case , and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair to avoid back and forth , just to try to keep some order in the meeting . ms. mcpherson , please continue . ms. heather mcpherson: i 'm sorry , chair . i have another question on the protection for workers . at the meat-packing plant , workers are calling for the plant to be shut down . in fact , we know that 85 % of workers are afraid for their safety . if the provincial government wo n't shut down the plant , will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the canadian food inspection agency ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , on the canadian food inspection agency , let me be very clear that my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has been in touch with provincial authorities . she has been in touch with the plant . the duties of the food inspection agency , of course , are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe . that is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on . we are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: we will go back to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson: mr. chair , this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in alberta . can the finance minister please let us know if cargill , a company that is owned by billionaires , with business in luxembourg , a known tax haven , has received any federal funding this year for covid-related support ? hon. diane lebouthillier: this is a tough time for canadians , and our government is doing everything it can to support them . more than 7million canadians have applied for the canada emergency response benefit , which the canada revenue agency and service canada administer . i want to say how proud i am of the work the agency is doing ; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time . ministerqualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims . the chair: we are moving on to the next question . we 'll continue now with mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my question today is for the prime minister . potato farmers in new brunswick and across canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry , but due to the pandemic , they now have no customers . it 's estimated that there is $ 300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage . what is the prime minister 's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i think all of us as canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country . we are aware that the coronavirus , by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries , has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes . the program announced today by the prime minister and my colleague , the minister of agriculture , will be very helpful for potato farmers , including with the surplus food program that starts with a $ 50 million fund , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. bragdon now . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , thank you . with an estimated $ 300 million worth of potatoes in storage , the announced funding from the government today simply does n't go far enough . in 2018 the new brunswick potato industry lost over $ 20 million . it is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $ 40 million . for many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018 , another major loss is totally unacceptable . how does the prime minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the honourable member spoke about farmers generally . the program today is $ 252 million , which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers , of course , have access to . on potato farmers , in particular , i agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern . i think all canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used , and that 's why the $ 50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic . the $ 16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants . does the government truly believe that the announced $ 125 million that is shared between beef , poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of canadians ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef , pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country . i am very pleased as a canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves , but also enough food to feed the world . that is why the $ 125 million specifically to support our beef , pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , the government 's announcement of $ 252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the canadian federation of agriculture 's request for immediate government relief for farmers . the president of the canadian federation of agriculture , mary robinson , put it today something like this : that if the farmhouse is on fire , the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water . this will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation . does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need ? when will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i do n't know about the honourable member , but where i come from , $ 252 million is not just crumbs . i know that canadian farmers do n't feel that $ 252 million is nothing , either . i would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today : the $ 77 million to support food processors , which will not only be important for the processors , but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them ; and the $ 250 million that we would like to add to the canadian dairy commission 's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars , which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question . go ahead , mrs. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): mr. chair , a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business , and they are on cerb . they were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified , and he is receiving $ 8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year . why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , any individual who has lost work for covid reasons is eligible for the cerb , regardless of their personal circumstances . if you made $ 5,000 in the past year and are a resident of canada , you qualify for the cerb . this is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of covid . mrs. cathay wagantall: clearly , high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time . the government 's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state , in all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence . why is the prime minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our cbsa officers first , giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border , the member opposite voted against it . i 'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it . let us be very clear . the evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used , and have been used , to kill innocent people . countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like new zealand , australia , the united kingdomhave all recognized that there 's no place for these weapons in a civil society . we promised canadians that we would act on that concern . there have been far too many people killed with these weapons , and even most recently , to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in nova scotia , the time to act is now , and we 've acted . mrs. cathay wagantall: last week the minister of agriculture said , step by step we are giving our farmers ... the tools they need to continue their ... work . on april 30 , the canadian federation of agriculture called on the minister to create a $ 2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in canada . this morning , the prime minister announced $ 252 million , hit-and-miss , across the agriculture sector . with all due respect , this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector . instead of being here to speak to this announcement , the minister has chosen to do a press conference . this certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability . if the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place , how does she see it is right to be providing $ 9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , first of all , let me say i do not , as has now been suggested by two members opposite , consider it in any way shameful that i should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector . our government strongly supports our farmers . i have to say i personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them . the $ 252 million of support is real and meaningful , and it is directed exactly where it is needed . it is directed at food processors , beef and pork producers and the dairy sector . as to the question about students , let me just point out that farm kids are students too , and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students . i know they , their parents and grandparents are very mrs. cathay wagantall: time is up . the chair: mr.lehoux , the next question goes to you . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . meat packing plants like quebec-based olymel are extremely worried that they wo n't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic . in the summer , these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation . however , the canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money . that 's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors . when is the government going to make these critical changes ? hon. carla qualtrough: i can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work . we know we need to support students with income support , but we also need to create jobs . we are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through canada summer jobs , through the the chair: there is a point of order . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , what the minister is saying is not being interpreted . the chair: we 'll just check to see how the technology is going . is everything okay now ? mrs. claude debellefeuille: yes , it 's working . the chair: let 's try that again , minister . hon. carla qualtrough: last week , as part of the measures announced around supporting our students , we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs , including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors . we know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need . this is exactly what we 're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy , and that 's what we 'll continue to do . we wo n't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times . mr. richard lehoux: i 'm not sure the minister understood my question about the canada emergency student benefit . i am very concerned about the agricultural sector , but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind . a number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer . this government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students . minister , what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , with all due respect , i believe we are helping students . we 've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis . that 's why we 're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work . we 're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer . we know they want to work and they want to serve . mr. richard lehoux: i hope that we 'll see some concrete results . pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country 's shutdown triggered by the pandemic . processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts . for the past five years , the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved . now more than ever , producers need these programs . however , the programs have n't been reviewed yet . when will the government make these changes , including the changes to agristability , and when can producers access them ? hon. chrystia freeland: we announced over $ 77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus . to help livestock and pork producers , we established agrirecovery , a national initiative that will provide $ 125million to help producers adapt to market changes . we 're launching the chair: mr.lehoux has the floor . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . i understand some of what the minister is saying . the measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector , since the sector had asked for about $ 2.6billion . i think that it 's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms , given the significant need for sovereignty . many canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear , as i was saying earlier . something must be done quickly , before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours . has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place ? hon. chrystia freeland: our country , canada , will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food . canada is a major beef , pork and grain producer . canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that . i want to mention another significant part of our announcement today , which is the $ 50million surplus food purchase program . this is very significant . i think that all canadians must support this initiative . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): we 'll now move on to the next question . mr.calkins , the member for reddeerlacombe , has the floor . mr. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): madam chair , how will the government 's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners ' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the united states ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , in response to that , i would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society , so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people . i would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border . we 'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police . we 'll bring forward new authorities , new offences , new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border . we 're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns . to deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally , there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences . mr. blaine calkins: the government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts . the recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy . a legal opinion that 's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres . that means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited . that is the same firearm that olympic trap shooters , olympic skeet shooters , duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis . why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , i 'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member . first of all , we have prohibited large-bore weapons , such as grenade launchers , but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun , i would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width , both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on friday . i 'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in canada when it comes to firearms legislation . if the entirety of the barrel length is considered , then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres . i would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners . there is no plan for a buyback program in this policy , and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms . given this , and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners are n't committing any gun violence , what was the government 's immediate benefit of making this announcement on may 1 ? hon. bill blair: thank you , and i 'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify . along with the prohibition that we have put in place , we have also , using the order in council , established an amnesty period , but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons . they can not be used , they ca n't be taken to the range for shooting , they ca n't be used for hunting , they ca n't be sold and they ca n't be transferred , so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use . we have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible , safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society . i look forward to the member 's support for those measures as we go forward . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , since january 1 , 2002 , any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until may 1 of this year . how many times was this most recent mass murderer here in canada checked against a criminal database since january 2002 ? hon. bill blair: as the member is probably aware , there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms , and it 's not appropriate to discuss that . however , i think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes . they were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers . in the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder , they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to canadians , and that 's why we have prohibited them . i 'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws , such as new zealand , australia and the united kingdom , have also implemented very similar bans . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to the hon . member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , madam chair . i 'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the hmcs fredericton who died , and in particular to the family of captain kevin hagen . he was originally a constituent from nanaimoladysmith . other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors , including in schools , on public transit and in stores . taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces . the taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing . they do not have a lockdown . taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by covid-19 , and today it is number 119. will canada follow taiwan 's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get canadians back to work ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): thank you very much , madam chair , and i thank the member for his question . there 's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting canadians ' health and safety , but as the member has mentioned , there are many other aspects to ensuring that canadians are safe no matter where they go . for example , it is of utmost importance that canadians practise social distancing . social distancing can provide the most protection , in fact , when you 're out in public or you 're in another place where there are other people . wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection , and certainly dr. tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option , canadians should consider wearing a mask . mr. paul manly: thank you . i 'd like to give a shout-out to martha and her team , who are doing a fundraiser for the spca by making masks for citizens in my riding . madam chair , many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan , including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income . will the government make the cerb a universal benefit to ensure that all canadians who need help get help ? if not , will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their rrsp without penalties so that they can pay their bills ? hon. deb schulte: thank you very much , and i really appreciate the question . we do recognize that oas and gis are very important parts of the retirement income of canadians , particularly lower-income seniors . we 've already introduced measures like the gst credit supplement to help seniors . the cerb is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of covid-19 . we 've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25 % , and we 've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable canadians , including seniors the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): we are going back to mr. manly . thank you . hon. deb schulte: i do recognize that there 's more to be done . thank you . mr. paul manly: many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer , particularly sole proprietorships . i have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out . at the same time , we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services . will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in canada ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): i want to thank the hon . member for the question . small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country . that is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in covid-19 . whether it is a small business loan , a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance , or just lowering the cost by deferring gst or hst or customs duties , many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): mr. manly , you may have a very short question . mr. paul manly: thank you , madam chair . as we navigate this pandemic crisis , we are also in the middle of another major crisis : the climate emergency . will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning ? the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): the hon . minister has 15 seconds . hon. jonathan wilkinson (minister of environment and climate change): thank you for the question . the focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken . as we look forward , we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon . climate change is one of those , and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to ms. ashton . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): thank you , madam chair . my question is to the minister of indigenous services . first nations across northern manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep covid-19 out of their communities . many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions , but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place , such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals . we have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of covid-19 . what is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility ? why is n't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in berens river , a hospital in cross lake , a hospital in the island lake region ? if the government could n't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic , can it at least act in time for a potential second wave ? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): indeed , madam chair , one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we do n't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading covid-19 . a lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations . in the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of covid-19 , there are many measures that indigenous services canada and as a whole of government we will deploy , including surge capacity , increased ppe , and nurses and doctors . obviously , we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem , and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of covid-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures . ms. niki ashton: again , madam chair , to the minister of indigenous services , many of us across northern canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern saskatchewan , centred in la loche . the outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in fort mcmurray . these camps are making workers sick , and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities . these work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic . your government says it 's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe , yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns . will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now ? hon. marc miller: madam chair , the situation in la loche is a very pressing concern . members wo n't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing . we are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the mtis and dene communities in la loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect . this is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute , and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources , along with meadow lake and the northern inter-tribal health authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem . clearly , we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach ms. niki ashton: my question referred to la loche , but this is a broader issue . there are many work camps , including here in our north , that first nations are extremely concerned about . will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time ? hon. marc miller: one of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads , particularly the fear of clusters as communities , provinces , territories may choose to relax certain measures , is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it , particularly in northern and vulnerable communities . this is something for which we will need to have a serious approach , with both the minister of natural resources and also our provincial counterparts , to make sure that we are n't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we 're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading covid-19 . ms. niki ashton: madam chair , my question is for the minister of fisheries . hundreds of fishers and their families here in manitoba who work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation are desperately calling for emergency support . many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the ffmc to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing . when will your government announce support for inland fishers , including here in manitoba , and will you work to ensure that their product , healthy fish , can be provided here at home for people who need it ? hon. bernadette jordan: madam chair , we know that covid-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities , especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance . indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $ 306 million we 've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses . the funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions . we also announced earlier that the canadian northern economic development agency has made available $ 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses . we know that there 's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters . we 're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): i need to interrupt you . we 'll now hear from claudedebellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: thank you , madamchair . i do n't want to talk about tax cheats . i do n't want to talk about the $ 1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats . i want to ask the minister why she is n't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens , a legal but immoral practice in this day and age . can she explain why she is n't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance , which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , as soon as our government took office in 2015 , we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats . our government 's historic investments of almost $ 1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work . we 're already starting to see the results . as i was saying , i established an expert advisory committee to advise us . we 've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program . we 've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information . we 're auditing four countries a year . we 're working with the oecd . currently , over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ms.debellefeuille has the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , does the minister realize that she 's being filmed and recorded and that she is n't answering my question ? i do n't want to talk about cheats . i want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens . i can see that she does n't want to answer my question . i 'll ask her another question . can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens ? how much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism ? the government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-covid-19 . hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , i completely understand my colleague 's impatience . however , she must understand that this type of issue is very complex . under the former conservative government , the issue was n't a priority at all . regarding tax evasion abroad , our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the conservatives . over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): go ahead , madame debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , i 'm not impatient . however , i do n't understand the government 's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism , which is legal but completely immoral . our questions remain unanswered . my next question is for the minister of finance . the fdration de la relve agricole du qubec and the upa approached the minister of finance two weeks ago and still have n't received a response regarding the following issue . we know that many farms do n't pay wages . as a result , these farms are being penalized because they are n't eligible for the $ 40,000 in loans available through the canada emergency business account . to qualify for these loans , the farms needed a payroll of $ 20,000 to $ 1.5million in 2019. does the minister of finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $ 40,000 in loans ? hon. bill morneau: thank you , ms.debellefeuille . we know that the canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it . mr. damien kurek: on a point of order hon. bill morneau: that 's why we 're considering our approach . of course mr. damien kurek: i have a point of order . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ministermorneau , please wait a moment . a member is raising a point of order . mr. kurek , do you have a point of order ? you have to unmute yourself . mr. damien kurek: yes . it 's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): you 'll have to put yourself on english . rather , the minister has to put himself on french . hon. bill morneau: sorry . i was on the english channel . we know that the people who need the canada emergency response benefit must have access to it . that 's why we 're considering the challenges each time . if i receive a letter , i 'll look at it . once we have a response , we 'll pass it directly on to the member . the chair: the next question will go to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): this question is for the tourism minister . the tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis , yet despite the prime minister 's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed canadians who work in tourism , there 's still been nothing from this government . when will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted . i had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector , and clearly there 's a lot of anxiety . we also had the chance to work with all the g20 ministers of tourism all together , and we know we have to act the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. richards . mr. blake richards: i did n't really get much of an answer there . i hear a lot about talking and not much on action . tourism-based communities like the ones in banff and canmore , which i represent , are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85 % or higher . they also do n't qualify for a lot of the programs because they 're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from may to october , so they 're at risk of losing their entire season . i have a couple of very specific questions . will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help ? what does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic ? hon. mlanie joly: thank you . obviously , the tourism sector has access to many measures , including the ceba account , the $ 40,000 account . they also have access to the wage subsidy . they have access to rent relief . they will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies , and we 'll be coming up with the details soon . of course , in my colleague 's riding of banff , which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem , they will have access to the support through wd , western economic diversification . if there are particular cases you would like to raise with me , i would be more than happy to talk to you to see how , on the ground , we can help the tourism operators . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , clearly the tourism minister has n't been listening . she says she 's talking to the industry . she 's not hearing their concerns . what she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries . it does n't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they 'll have after the pandemic . let 's try another minister and see if we can get some answers . another industry that 's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry . it 's another industry the prime minister has promised to help , but there has n't been anything . clearly there 's a pattern here . the only so-called assistance there 's been to help hurting albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in . will the liberal government ever show any concern for albertans ? will they bring forward a plan to preserve canadian jobs ? will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of canadian oil before oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): in fact , mr. chair , the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry . we have the canada emergency wage subsidy , which covers 75 % of an employee 's wages for the employer . we have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $ 15 million to $ 60 million from the business development bank of canada . we continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of covid-19 on my province here in newfoundland and labrador and on alberta and saskatchewan . these three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time , a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with covid-19 . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , a lot of these things we 're hearing about are n't going to actually help the industry to recover . what we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed . maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of canadians back to work . will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects ? will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan: mr. chair , we have been working with our provincial partners . we have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry . we have been working with labour , concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers . we 're particularly proud of our orphan wells program , which was launched by the alberta government in conjunction with us . it was launched last week . i am pleased to inform this house that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected . the chair: that 's all the time we have for questions today . i want to thank all the members for taking part . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . thank you .

the meeting of the standing committee took place to discuss matters pertinent to the coronavirus pandemic . the main issue at stake was to ensure that the government was doing everything in its power to assist vulnerable canadians during the pandemic , as well as to help reopen the economy . while many discussions focused on temporary assistance that the government could provide during the pandemic , like a $ 25 weekly bump in old-age security , some discussions talked about the intersection of these programs with general social welfare initiatives , like reducing homelessness and poverty . canada 's agricultural and fishing economy was highlighted as one of the industries in the greatest need for stimulus . conservative ministers tried to bring attention to the government 's recent gun control laws .

summarize the discussion about introduction of petitions and prioritization of government matters . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call the meeting to order . welcome to the third meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . pursuant to the order of reference of monday , april20 , the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements , allowing members to present petitions , and questioning ministers of the crown , including the prime minister , in respect of the covid-19 pandemic . i understand there 's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the canadian armed forces who lost their lives last wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of greece . we 'll return to order . colleagues , we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the covid-19 pandemic . as we do , canadians , like everyone around the world , are doing their best to live their lives until things improve . meanwhile , as we look towards the future , i believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history . at this very moment , the dominion carillonneur , dr. andrea mccrady , is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the netherlands by the canadian forces . in may 1945 , canadian forces played a major role in liberating the dutch people from nazi occupation . may 5 is now a national holiday in the netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries . today 's meeting is taking place by video conference . the proceedings will be made available via the house of commons website . please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee . let me remind you that , as in the house or in committee , members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings . in order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings , i will outline a few rules . interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the house . at the bottom of your screen , you can choose floor , english or french . as you have seen , i change as i am speaking . i have now switched over to english in order to speak english . if you look at the bottom , you have a little flag that indicates whether it 's english or french , and that 's how we will be speaking . it makes it easier . that was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session . i understand that there are no statements by ministers . we can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions . in addition , to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented , the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee . i thank all the members for their usual co-operation . thank you all . now we 'll proceed to presenting petitions . our first petition comes from the honourable member for sherwood parkfort saskatchewan , mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today . the first petition is with respect to government bill c-7 . petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime . it includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person 's consent . the petitioners urge the house of commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia , and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people . this would require that bill to be amended or not passed . the second petition is with respect to senate public bill s-204 . this is on organ harvesting and trafficking . petitioners call on members of the house , and hopefully the senate as well , to support bill s-204 , which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent . it would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking . thank you very much . the chair: thank you . i want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us . if you do n't have one , please talk to your it ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible . the reason for them is not so much for what you hear , but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult . part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset , which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members . now we go to the member for beacheseast york , mr. erskine-smith . mr. nathaniel erskine-smith (beacheseast york, lib.): mr. chair , i had to learn how to tie my tie all over again . it 's been so long . i want to thank jenna robar , who 's led this petition e-2453 . the petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in canada and that 2019 , last year , was declared by the un to be the year of indigenous languages . they draw attention to article 13 of the undrip and to the trc 's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. fundamentally , they call upon the government of canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of canada and to have each language recognized nationally , with implementations on regional and provincial levels , acknowledging that many regions have different languages . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): mr. chair , i am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents , myles lynch of st. andrews west in my riding . myles made history as the first canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants . myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years , and he 's only 22 years old . myles created a documentary called 8 thousand myles , which had a few showings in my riding . it documented his journey across canada . one thing myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation . myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue . i mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them . i am proud to have this certified today , with 1,318 signatures , asking the standing committee on health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program . i give kudos to myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system . kudos to myles . i 'm proud to present this petition today . mr. peter julian (new westminsterburnaby, ndp): mr. chair , i 'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of toronto , mississauga and brampton , ontario , who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of canadians who have signed similar petitions . given that canadians are living through unprecedented , catastrophic climate events , and at the same time our society , as you know , is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of canadian families are only $ 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing , these petitioners are calling on the government of canada to support motion m-1 , a made-in-canada green new deal that i am presenting in front of the house of commons . it calls on canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency , and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , it 's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from courtenayalberni . they are concerned , obviously , about fentanyl-related deaths . over 12,000 canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources . they cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective ; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs ; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl . they are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources , with proper measures and bylaws , will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs . problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption . they are calling on the government of canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the emergencies act . they are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession , as has been done in portugal and other countries , and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally , recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source . mr. brad vis (missionmatsquifraser canyon, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of canadians in my riding with the government 's approach to firearms legislation and regulation . the petition highlights that the liberal government 's december 5 , 2019 , speech from the throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation ; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in canadian law ; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions ; that the experts , including chiefs of police , agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety ; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into canada from the united states ; and that the liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs , drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities . the petitioners in missionmatsquifraser canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners ; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed , rcmp-vetted canadians ; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement , on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs , on mental health and on providing the canada border services agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively . the chair: very good . that 's all for petitions today . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair . ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking . i want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly , not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters . we start the question period with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in canada and its impacts , the prime minister is deceiving canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners . why ? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): mr.chair , i feel that all canadians were affected by the massacre in nova scotia . once again , too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief . during the last election campaign , we promised to ban military-style assault weapons , and that is exactly what we have done . we will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control . it is a shame that , once more , the conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i understand the prime minister 's reply . however , i would like to know whether he considers that , with this order in council , organized crime , street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons . right hon. justin trudeau: this is indeed only a first step , but it is an important one . we are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities , to strengthen the control at our borders , and to implement other measures . i am pleased to hear the hon . member speak of those measures , because we are going to work together in the house to strengthen gun control . i hope that the conservative party will be part of that discussion in a positive way , in order to keep canadians safe . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i can simply say to the prime minister that the conservative party has always been committed to battling criminals , not law-abiding citizens . speaking of criminals , we know that , even before the pandemic , the prime minister had asked the parole board of canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly . now we are learning that , because of the pandemic , some releases are happening very quickly . the minister of public safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older , but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released . can the prime minister give us an explanation ? right hon. justin trudeau: the protection , the safety and the health of all canadians are important for the government . this is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected . we have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases , but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for canadians . we have managed to find the right balance . we must protect canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe . those two things go hand-in-hand . mr. pierre paul-hus: so is the prime minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience covid-19 within the walls ? right hon. justin trudeau: there are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have one minute left . mr. pierre paul-hus: thank you , mr.chair . the chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus . australia asked for an in-depth investigation , but has received threats from the communist regime . is canada going to stand by its allies in the five eyes and demand that the chinese government be completely transparent ? right hon. justin trudeau: we continue to stand in solidarity with our allies , including the five eyes , as they have stood in solidarity with canada in terms of the two canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in china . in the coming months and years , we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic , including questions that are important for china . at the same time , we are going to work hard to ensure that all canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic . the chair: we now move to mr.blanchet . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am sorry that i do not have my official headset . i was elsewhere , and i did not bring it with me . i hope that you can still hear me properly . for some days , discussions have been going on between people from the bloc qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in quebec and canada . the gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $ 25per week , or $ 110per month . by the way , i hate the term `` old age security . i prefer `` senior security . the discussion has been going on for some time and it 's a proposal that we made in the election campaign . we are asking for it to be done at this point , at least temporarily . parliament stopped sitting in the middle of march . we are now in may , and seniors still have nothing . they are impatient themselves , and we spend a good part of our days answering them . given that impatience , i realized i should not be the one answering them , it should be the prime minister . so here is my question for the prime minister : what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in quebec and canada in the very short term ? right hon. justin trudeau: clearly , seniors need support and significant services from us because of covid-19 . our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of covid-19 . then we announced different measures , including measures for seniors . the most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the gst , which will help them very quickly . we have also reduced by 25 % the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds . we have also channelled $ 9million through the united way , to help the most vulnerable seniors . absolutely , i recognize that more must be done . i am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians , including those in the bloc qubcois , to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term . in terms of the pandemic , they have concerns about their physical security , but also about their financial security . we will have more to say about this soon . mr. yves-franois blanchet: in the last few hours , the prime minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties , including the bloc qubcois , on a completely different matter . we are very open to that discussion , but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of quebec . the cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors , as it has for everyone else . it 's true for all seniors over 65years old , of course . the current old age pension represents less than half of the canada emergency student benefit . it represents less than one third of the basic canada emergency response benefit . seniors in my constituency , as in any other of the 338constituencies , are asking what we are doing . they are asking how there can be nothing for them . when will there be something for them ? i want to be able to give them an answer of some kind . what is the prime minister 's answer ? i will repeat it to them . right hon. justin trudeau: there will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors , particularly the most vulnerable seniors . we recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone . that is why we have to do better for our seniors . there are horror stories , whether about the chslds , or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country . far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief . there are seniors who are alone , seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again . we have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war . now we have to fight for them in their homes . that is exactly what we are going to do . the chair: we 'll go to the next question . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , every day i hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head . instead of making sure that canadians get the help they need , the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks . if the prime minister wo n't commit to a universal benefit , will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we knew , when this pandemic hit , that we needed to help canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast , particularly the most vulnerable . that is why we moved forward rapidly with the canada emergency response benefit , which has helped over seven million individual canadians and has made a huge difference . we had to move very quickly to get this money out to people , and that is exactly what we did . we also recognized that there would be a need to do more . that is why since that moment , we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well . we have more to do , but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government continues to leave people behind . i spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year . she recently found a job and a place to live . however , because she did n't make $ 5,000 last year , when the pandemic hit she did n't qualify for any benefits . she did n't qualify , but she is one of the people who need it the most . i 'm wondering why the prime minister does n't think she deserves our support . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift canadians out of poverty and will support them . over the past five years , we 've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country , and we 've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we 're doing . we will continue to . we 've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable . at the same time , we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million canadians who successfully receive the cerb . we recognize there 's more to do , and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need , but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help . if a company is cheating the public , using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share , it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits . other countries , like poland , denmark and france , have made this commitment , and if they can do it , so can we . the prime minister said one thing one day and another the next . will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens , it will not receive public funds ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the measures we 've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs , regardless of the companies they work for . it is a shame to hear the ndp , which used to be the party of workers , choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for . we have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers . that is not help for the companies . that is help for the workers , and that has been our focus all the way through : ordinary canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of covid-19 . that has been our priority , and that is what canadians need right now . of course , we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion . we spent a billion dollars to strengthen our ms. laurel collins : mr. chair , can i ask my last question ? right hon . justin trudeau : we will continue to do that . the chair: i 'm just going to pause the time for a moment . i want to remind honourable members that we 're trying to stay within committee rules , which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time . i just want to remind our members of that . i 'll go back to ms. collins . she has about 45 seconds left , and hopefully that 's about half and half for the question and the answer . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins: thanks so much , mr. chair . my last question is about housing and homelessness . my community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit , and now people who are living on the streets or in parks do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home . in victoria , the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people , at least for the short term , in local hotels . will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term , stable housing ? the chair: the right honourable prime minister , in 25 seconds or less , please . right hon. justin trudeau: yes , mr. chair , we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $ 40 billion toward housing . working with partners , we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country , but there is more to do . we are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments . we recognize that during this pandemic there 's even more to do for vulnerable canadians , and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens . mr. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): a point of order , mr.chair . the chair: order . mr.godin has a point of order . mr. jol godin: mr.chair , i can not hear the french interpretation . could we please check so that i can hear in french what the prime minister is saying ? the chair: okay . can we check that ? mr. jol godin: thank you . right hon. justin trudeau: i can try speaking english . i believe i was on the english tab , as is important . are you hearing the translation now ? the chair: that is exactly what the issue was . i just want to point that out to all the members . i 'm speaking english right now and i 'm on the english toggle at the bottom of the screen . it does create a bit of a disjoint when we 're speaking , but it 's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone . the next question will go to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): mr. chair , as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum , i want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash . i know that i speak for all parliamentarians when i extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones . mr. chair , i want to raise with the prime minister an issue that i 've raised several times before , and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program . there is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country . last year , they acquired another company . those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy , but because of rules that the government designed , together they do not . even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible , so far they 've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program . as a result , thousands of jobs are threatened . will the prime minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for brandt tractor all across the country ? right hon. justin trudeau: i thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding . as i told him when we spoke directly , finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding . we recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy , but i know that finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it , so that the workers in his community can get the support they need . hon. andrew scheer: the prime minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well , so we 're hoping for some good news . just flagging the time and date , it is well into may now and important decisions have to be made in very short order . there are other aspects of the government 's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks . the plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70 % of their revenue . as provinces start to open up , many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35 % or 45 % of regular revenues . they will not be able to access these programs and , in many cases , there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work . will the prime minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country , and that 's exactly what we did . we 're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country . i am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work . we are getting closer to that point , but we are not there yet . we are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis . as different provinces move forward towards reopening , as we look at different paths forward , i know that i will be able to count on all members in the house and , indeed , on canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way . that will be good to work on together once we get there . the chair: we have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , no one is disputing the need to move quickly . we are now in may , though , and these programs have been announced for weeks . canadians have been accessing them . the problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well , but we 're also going to see an additional challenge , where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit , who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours , are faced with a hard cap of $ 1,000 a month before they lose the cerb . conservatives are proposing a progressive system , a more flexible system , where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored . again , will the prime minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work ? the chair: i believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up , but i 'll give the right honourable prime minister about 30 seconds to answer that , please . right hon. justin trudeau: thank you , mr. chair . our priority was getting support for canadians right across the country with the cerb , with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students , for seniors , for farmers and for agricultural producers . that has been our priority , and that 's what we have worked on . i hear the concerns that the conservative party has around disincentives . we are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen , to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it . however , our overarching priority was allowing canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home , care for their loved ones , buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic . that 's exactly what we did . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu now . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): mr. chair , seniors in my riding are struggling . we 've heard the prime minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down , rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing . he 's been saying for weeks that in the coming days , something would be announced for seniors . the fact is that the liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security . which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors ? hon. deb schulte (minister of seniors): mr. chair , after a lifetime of hard work , of course canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security . covid-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors . they have a greater need for services and supports . happily , their pensions and their benefits are still flowing , unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs , but it 's still tough . we introduced measures ms. marilyn gladu : which day ? hon . deb schulte : at the beginning of april . people received a gst credit , a supplementary payment that was $ 400 on average for single seniors and $ 600 for couples . that was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: yes , mr. chair . i think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question . i would just ask the minister to keep to that . i would like to go to my second question . the chair: i want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible . ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: very good , mr. chair . my riding is on the border of canada and the u.s. we see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the u.s. and actually in the interpretation of different cbsa agents . while we have americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish , individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined . we have people who have purchased masts from canadian producers for their boats , and who want to come and pick them up , who are not being allowed to do that . people trying to sell plasma into the u.s. are being denied . when will they clarify the rules to the cbsa agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce , including individual commerce , is understood ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by cbsa to stop all non-essential travel . those measures have been very successful . we 've seen a 99 % reduction in international travel coming into canada . at the same time , we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach canada and we could put groceries on our shelves . we also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border . we have provided cbsa with clarification . their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent . i 've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases . when we receive those inquiries , we follow up immediately . i want to assure the member that we 'll continue to do that . the work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of canadians , and we will continue with that work . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses . we see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outei , cerb , the wage subsidy , etc . what is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , first , let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult . the intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge . we are looking at ways that we can ensure that the canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application . more than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans , representing over $ 20 billion . we are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process , recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact , and we will have more to say on that . the chair: the next question will go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , this is my first appearance , so i hope you can hear me okay . the chair: we can hear you fine . please proceed . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . it 's good to see everyone 's faces . on april 3 , the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters . since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in prince edward island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time , but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled , giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors . this double standard is severely unfair and atlantic harvesters are furious , as demonstrated during the protests on the canso causeway yesterday . when will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 , 24 and 26 ? hon. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): mr. chair , when making decisions with regard to when seasons open , a number of factors are taken into account . they are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season , what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season , as well socio-economic impacts on the area . we 're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions . we do not make them lightly . they are difficult decisions to make . in the decisions we 've made around the gulf , one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date . that is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of may . we 're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water . we 're looking forward to the product that they bring in . we 'll continue do everything we can to support the industry . mr. mel arnold: thank you , minister . i believe the time the chair: excuse me . no , the hon . minister had another 15 seconds coming to her . i 'd like to remind hon . members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking . i 'll do my best to try to keep it about level . maybe i 'll start muting if it 's necessary , but interrupting is not going to solve anything . mr. arnold , i 'll let you continue . you have three minutes and nine seconds left . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . west coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in british columbia , especially in coastal communities , and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government . last year , the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science . a year later , the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable , science-based solutions to conserve b.c . 's public fisheries . does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support canada 's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , the fishery is important in every coastal community . i recognize its value for our economy , as well as what it means to our coastal communities . that 's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we 're doing everything we possibly can to support them . during these extremely difficult times , we 're working on measures with the fishery in b.c. , as well as on the atlantic coast and eastern quebec , to make sure that we 're delivering for them and that all of the issues they 're having are being addressed . the chair: mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , canada 's seniors , especially those on basic incomes , are being hard hit by the covid-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services . seniors require adequate caregiver supports , physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security . why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? will the government support canada 's senior citizens ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds or less , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to assure my hon . colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time . we have provided a gst credit supplement of $ 400 for single seniors and $ 600 for couples , for low- and modest-income seniors . we have also ensured that the canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to covid-19 . we 've made them eligible . the chair: we 'll go back to mr. arnold . mr. arnold , you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . on april 23 , my colleagues and i called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in canada 's essential food supply chains . what has the government done to match students and other canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors , including those in the fish and seafood sector ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , we 're doing all we can to make sure , using our existing employment programs , that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer . we know that this is going to be really tough , especially in areas like agriculture , so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government , and a number of different initiatives including canada summer jobs , which i 'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days . the chair: now we 'll go on to the next question from ms. harder . ms. rempel , do you have a point of order ? hon. michelle rempel garner (calgary nose hill, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . with my colleague , mr. arnold , it 's the second time that i note you 've threatened to cut off a conservative microphone . i 'm just wondering , given that this is n't the house of commons and it 's structured as a committee , what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of parliament using a mute button . it seems a little dictatorial , and i was just wondering whether you could clarify that , based on the standing orders . the chair: i do n't think i threatened to use mute , but thank you for bringing that up . i am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal , so that there are no interruptions on either side . that 's how we 're going to continue . i did n't use the mute . i did it verbally and i think that 's a little more civil way of doing it . i hope you approve . i 'm not asking you to comment on that . we 'll go over to ms. harder . thank you . hon. michelle rempel garner: but , on the point of order , mr. chair , you actually , to me , last week , and to mr. arnold , did suggest that you were going to use the mute button . the chair: i believe that if we take everything out and go over it .... bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where i threatened , and we 'll go over it , but i do n't think this is the venue to do that . if you want to bring forward a point of order , i 'm all in favour of it . hon. michelle rempel garner: well , i am bringing forward a point of order . i 've asked you to clarify the chair: very good . we 'll look into it and get back to you . thank you . we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government 's initiative to put a gun ban in place . does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in nova scotia ? the chair: the honourable minister in 15 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: we have heard from health professionals , women 's rights organizations , victims groups and the police and our unions . they 're all very supportive of the government 's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people . ms. rachael harder: it 's interesting that the minister is misleading canadians in that comment because the canadian association of chiefs of police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort , that it actually will not protect canadians . so i 'd be curious . how many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the liberal government ? hon. bill blair: yes , let 's actually quote what the police have said . the ontario association of chiefs of police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles . the chief in toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety , and the canadian association of police chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles . ms. rachael harder: the answer to that question is zero . absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the liberals ' legislation that 's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms . can the prime minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes ? the chair: the honourable minister in 25 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: yes , to be very clear , the order in council actually is targeted at weapons , weapons that were designed for military use , and in their design and in their intent , to kill people , they 've actually been used in this country , at cole polytechnique ; in moncton ; at a quebec city mosque ; in fredericton ; at mayerthorpe and most recently in nova scotia . these are weapons that really have no place .... they are being used and have been used in canada and around the world to commit mass murder , and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: thank you . now i understand the prime minister has his food prepared for him at 24 sussex drive and then it 's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives . contrary to his privileged understanding , food actually originates with farmers . now , they 're in a crisis right now , which means that regular canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs . the canadian federation of agriculture requested $ 2.6 billion to help them out . today , the government announced one-tenth of this amount . why does n't the prime minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep canada fed ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , let me assure the hon . member that our government cares very , very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country . let me just say i am grateful to all the farmers , like my dad , who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding . we , as canadians , are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower , and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers . ms. rachael harder: i 'm confused as to why the prime minister did n't take my question , and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister does n't feel it 's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today . when we have farmers who produce for canadians on a daily basis and they 're asking some serious and some very important questions , and we do n't even have a minister who 's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation , that 's shameful . several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of covid-19 and , as a result , farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected . cattle producers in my region are spending more than $ 60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen . the amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket . it 's a crumb . when will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in canada ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just say that i feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me , the deputy prime minister , answer questions about agriculture . i am actually very proud to speak up for canada 's amazing farmers , for our country 's amazing ranchers , for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers . i feel so close to our farmers . i love them and our government supports them . today , we announced $ 252 million of support for our producers . they need it . they deserve it . we 're here for them . the chair: now we 'll go on to mr. bezan . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week . i 'm sure that all members of the house stand shoulder to shoulder with the families , with the crew of the hmcs fredericton and , indeed , with the entire canadian armed forces community during this time of grief . can the minister of national defence give us an update as to the cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of greece last week ? hon. harjit s. sajjan (minister of national defence): mr. chair , the deaths of the canadian armed forces members are felt by all , and especially the families . our condolences go out to them . our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them , and that 's exactly what we are doing . currently , the investigation is ongoing . our investigative team is currently on the ground . i actually spoke with the italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that 's required . the chair: i 'm afraid i 'm going to have to cut you off there , if we 're going by the rules that were pointed out by the house . mr. bezan . mr. james bezan: thank you , mr. chair . through you to minister sajjan again , i 'm going to change gears a bit . i know that back in early january , military intelligence through cf intelligence command was reporting , through the chain of command , the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in wuhan . on what date was he , as minister of national defence , given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in china ? hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , we have been following this crisis from day one . we work with our five eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort , right from the beginning . i can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information . obviously , i ca n't discuss the intelligence in this forum , but i can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information . mr. james bezan: minister sajjan , we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in national defence . it was reported in the media that in early january the hierarchy within the canadian armed forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak . i asked you , minister , when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence . hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , i get regular briefings on intelligence . yes , i was made aware of this in january . as with all our intelligence , we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies . one thing i can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet . mr. james bezan: what was that timeline ? from the time you were first told , minister sajjan , about the coronavirus outbreak in wuhan , what did you do with that intelligence ? when did you give it to the prime minister or to minister hajdu as the minister of health ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me say that our government 's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of canadian intelligence agencies throughout . we have been working on this from very early on . on january 2 , phac first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation . on january 14 , it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities . in january , the prime minister convened a meeting of the incident response group , and in january we increased screening at all major airports . all of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community , and of course our work with our five eyes , nato and norad allies . mr. james bezan: i want to come back the chair: we now move to mr.ste-marie . mr. james bezan: i still have 30 seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): can i go ahead , mr.chair ? the chair: yes , go ahead . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . in an interview with grald fillion , tax expert andr lareau , who specializes in tax havens , pointed out that $ 350billion canadian is parked in just 12tax havens . companies are using tax havens for financing , operations and intellectual property activities . mr.lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it . he said that it 's time for canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $ 250-billion deficit , and that if it does n't act now to change things , it never will . is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , as soon as we took office , in 2015 , our government made cracking down on tax evaders in canada and abroad a priority . that 's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort . i realize that my fellow member is impatient , but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue . under our leadership , in three years , the canada revenue agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the conservatives were in power . as we speak , the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion . i repeat , this is a top priority for our government . mr. gabriel ste-marie: you 're right , i am very impatient , because whenever i bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally , the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters . i am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies . since parliament began sitting virtually , it 's been mentioned a few times that denmark and poland have decided to deal with the issue . even france 's finance minister , bruno lemaire , said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance . we hear theprime minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers , so i 'd like to cite another examplebanks . the government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities , and yet , the five major banks in toronto , alone , are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens . this is unacceptable . this has nothing to do with wages for workers , and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets , cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after . is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , our government is taking unprecedented steps through the canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by covid-19 . this is largely a trust-based program , and we will not tolerate abuse . anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences . applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim . what 's more , any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount . anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225 % of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison . the canada revenue agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim . as i mentioned , cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government . the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds to ask your question , and about the same for the answer . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . that 's an excellent answer , but it has nothing to do with my question . the minister of finance has the power to fix the problem now . although completely immoral , the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the income tax regulations . through simple regulatory amendments , the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse . we are going to have a $ 250-billion deficit to pay off , and everyone is going to have to chip in , including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment , our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job , and we are starting to see results . i set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations . we tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program . we signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries . we audit four jurisdictions a year . we also work closely with the oecd . the chair: we now move on to another member . the next questioner is mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , i 'm sharing my time slot with the member for surreynewton . in the wake of covid-19 , so many canadians have been affected in so many ways . financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country . i 'm proud of how the government of canada has been beside canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported canadians when they needed it most . in bonavistaburintrinity and across our country , our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts . last week , my colleague , the minister of fisheries and oceans , announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing canada 's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process , store , package and distribute healthy , high-quality products on to the plates of canadians . the fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures . they are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices . they are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times . when can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters ' requests for assistance ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague from bonavistaburintrinity for keeping us well aware of what 's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors . we know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities , our coastal communities . it 's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that 's why we want to be there to support them . we 've already taken steps by making sure that the cerb is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers . as well , we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers ei are also able to qualify for it . we also have made an investment of $ 62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of covid-19 . we know there is more to do . we know that the harvesters need support . we are working with our partners across industry to make sure we 're hearing what their major concerns are . we know they are going to have some very challenging times this season . we will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days . the chair: the next questioner is mr. dhaliwal . mr. sukh dhaliwal (surreynewton, lib.): mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: we have a point of order . mr. kurek . mr. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): sorry , but there seems to be an issue with the audio . i 'm unable to hear the honourable member . the chair: it is very faint . mr. dhaliwal , can you check your audio to make sure everything 's working well ? mr. sukh dhaliwal: it was the chair: there we go . it 's fine now . i think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it was n't being picked up . there you go . very good . mr. sukh dhaliwal: mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers , transport companies to warehousing . with provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy , there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen . with so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions , and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum , how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work . one of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories . that 's why i was so pleased that last week the prime minister , together with all the first ministers of the country , was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart . this is so important because , as my colleague has pointed out , all of our business , our economic activity , happens across the country . it happens across provincial and territorial boundaries . i would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country . they belong to different parties , but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside . we have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus , and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen canada . thank you . the chair: the next question goes to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson (edmonton strathcona, ndp): thank you , mr. chair , for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing . i 'd like to start by asking about supports for workers . in alberta , meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all covid-19 cases . the government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with covid-19 . now , two workers are dead , at least six more are in intensive care and covid-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities . there are over 1,400 cases . yesterday , employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed . on march 27 , regarding the cerb , the minister of finance said that if workers do n't feel comfortable in their work , if they decide to stay home , they can apply for the benefit , yet the website says differently . will the minister guarantee that every canadian receiving cerb , ei or the cesb will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to covid-19 ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me thank the member , first of all , for her really very important question . i think all of us share the concern for canada 's essential workers who are keeping us safe , putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions . when it comes to the cargill plant , this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in . my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant . the decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities . to the question my colleague asked about workers , it is absolutely the case that no canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe , and it is also very much the case that any canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home . this is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: we will go on to ms. mcpherson for the next question . ms. heather mcpherson: i just want to be clear , because i 'm not a hundred per cent sure that i got an answer in that response , so i 'll try one more time . knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work , can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work , they will be able to access the cerb , or was the minister of finance incorrect when he spoke on march 27 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'm sorry , but i was struggling with my mute button . i apologize . let me just be very clear . no canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions . ms. heather mcpherson: but then could they access the cerb ? hon. chrystia freeland: in a time of coronavirus that is even more the case , and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair to avoid back and forth , just to try to keep some order in the meeting . ms. mcpherson , please continue . ms. heather mcpherson: i 'm sorry , chair . i have another question on the protection for workers . at the meat-packing plant , workers are calling for the plant to be shut down . in fact , we know that 85 % of workers are afraid for their safety . if the provincial government wo n't shut down the plant , will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the canadian food inspection agency ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , on the canadian food inspection agency , let me be very clear that my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has been in touch with provincial authorities . she has been in touch with the plant . the duties of the food inspection agency , of course , are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe . that is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on . we are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: we will go back to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson: mr. chair , this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in alberta . can the finance minister please let us know if cargill , a company that is owned by billionaires , with business in luxembourg , a known tax haven , has received any federal funding this year for covid-related support ? hon. diane lebouthillier: this is a tough time for canadians , and our government is doing everything it can to support them . more than 7million canadians have applied for the canada emergency response benefit , which the canada revenue agency and service canada administer . i want to say how proud i am of the work the agency is doing ; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time . ministerqualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims . the chair: we are moving on to the next question . we 'll continue now with mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my question today is for the prime minister . potato farmers in new brunswick and across canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry , but due to the pandemic , they now have no customers . it 's estimated that there is $ 300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage . what is the prime minister 's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i think all of us as canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country . we are aware that the coronavirus , by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries , has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes . the program announced today by the prime minister and my colleague , the minister of agriculture , will be very helpful for potato farmers , including with the surplus food program that starts with a $ 50 million fund , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. bragdon now . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , thank you . with an estimated $ 300 million worth of potatoes in storage , the announced funding from the government today simply does n't go far enough . in 2018 the new brunswick potato industry lost over $ 20 million . it is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $ 40 million . for many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018 , another major loss is totally unacceptable . how does the prime minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the honourable member spoke about farmers generally . the program today is $ 252 million , which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers , of course , have access to . on potato farmers , in particular , i agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern . i think all canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used , and that 's why the $ 50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic . the $ 16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants . does the government truly believe that the announced $ 125 million that is shared between beef , poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of canadians ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef , pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country . i am very pleased as a canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves , but also enough food to feed the world . that is why the $ 125 million specifically to support our beef , pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , the government 's announcement of $ 252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the canadian federation of agriculture 's request for immediate government relief for farmers . the president of the canadian federation of agriculture , mary robinson , put it today something like this : that if the farmhouse is on fire , the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water . this will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation . does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need ? when will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i do n't know about the honourable member , but where i come from , $ 252 million is not just crumbs . i know that canadian farmers do n't feel that $ 252 million is nothing , either . i would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today : the $ 77 million to support food processors , which will not only be important for the processors , but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them ; and the $ 250 million that we would like to add to the canadian dairy commission 's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars , which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question . go ahead , mrs. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): mr. chair , a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business , and they are on cerb . they were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified , and he is receiving $ 8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year . why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , any individual who has lost work for covid reasons is eligible for the cerb , regardless of their personal circumstances . if you made $ 5,000 in the past year and are a resident of canada , you qualify for the cerb . this is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of covid . mrs. cathay wagantall: clearly , high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time . the government 's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state , in all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence . why is the prime minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our cbsa officers first , giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border , the member opposite voted against it . i 'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it . let us be very clear . the evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used , and have been used , to kill innocent people . countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like new zealand , australia , the united kingdomhave all recognized that there 's no place for these weapons in a civil society . we promised canadians that we would act on that concern . there have been far too many people killed with these weapons , and even most recently , to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in nova scotia , the time to act is now , and we 've acted . mrs. cathay wagantall: last week the minister of agriculture said , step by step we are giving our farmers ... the tools they need to continue their ... work . on april 30 , the canadian federation of agriculture called on the minister to create a $ 2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in canada . this morning , the prime minister announced $ 252 million , hit-and-miss , across the agriculture sector . with all due respect , this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector . instead of being here to speak to this announcement , the minister has chosen to do a press conference . this certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability . if the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place , how does she see it is right to be providing $ 9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , first of all , let me say i do not , as has now been suggested by two members opposite , consider it in any way shameful that i should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector . our government strongly supports our farmers . i have to say i personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them . the $ 252 million of support is real and meaningful , and it is directed exactly where it is needed . it is directed at food processors , beef and pork producers and the dairy sector . as to the question about students , let me just point out that farm kids are students too , and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students . i know they , their parents and grandparents are very mrs. cathay wagantall: time is up . the chair: mr.lehoux , the next question goes to you . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . meat packing plants like quebec-based olymel are extremely worried that they wo n't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic . in the summer , these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation . however , the canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money . that 's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors . when is the government going to make these critical changes ? hon. carla qualtrough: i can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work . we know we need to support students with income support , but we also need to create jobs . we are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through canada summer jobs , through the the chair: there is a point of order . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , what the minister is saying is not being interpreted . the chair: we 'll just check to see how the technology is going . is everything okay now ? mrs. claude debellefeuille: yes , it 's working . the chair: let 's try that again , minister . hon. carla qualtrough: last week , as part of the measures announced around supporting our students , we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs , including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors . we know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need . this is exactly what we 're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy , and that 's what we 'll continue to do . we wo n't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times . mr. richard lehoux: i 'm not sure the minister understood my question about the canada emergency student benefit . i am very concerned about the agricultural sector , but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind . a number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer . this government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students . minister , what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , with all due respect , i believe we are helping students . we 've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis . that 's why we 're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work . we 're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer . we know they want to work and they want to serve . mr. richard lehoux: i hope that we 'll see some concrete results . pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country 's shutdown triggered by the pandemic . processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts . for the past five years , the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved . now more than ever , producers need these programs . however , the programs have n't been reviewed yet . when will the government make these changes , including the changes to agristability , and when can producers access them ? hon. chrystia freeland: we announced over $ 77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus . to help livestock and pork producers , we established agrirecovery , a national initiative that will provide $ 125million to help producers adapt to market changes . we 're launching the chair: mr.lehoux has the floor . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . i understand some of what the minister is saying . the measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector , since the sector had asked for about $ 2.6billion . i think that it 's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms , given the significant need for sovereignty . many canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear , as i was saying earlier . something must be done quickly , before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours . has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place ? hon. chrystia freeland: our country , canada , will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food . canada is a major beef , pork and grain producer . canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that . i want to mention another significant part of our announcement today , which is the $ 50million surplus food purchase program . this is very significant . i think that all canadians must support this initiative . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): we 'll now move on to the next question . mr.calkins , the member for reddeerlacombe , has the floor . mr. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): madam chair , how will the government 's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners ' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the united states ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , in response to that , i would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society , so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people . i would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border . we 'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police . we 'll bring forward new authorities , new offences , new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border . we 're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns . to deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally , there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences . mr. blaine calkins: the government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts . the recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy . a legal opinion that 's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres . that means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited . that is the same firearm that olympic trap shooters , olympic skeet shooters , duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis . why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , i 'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member . first of all , we have prohibited large-bore weapons , such as grenade launchers , but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun , i would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width , both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on friday . i 'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in canada when it comes to firearms legislation . if the entirety of the barrel length is considered , then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres . i would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners . there is no plan for a buyback program in this policy , and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms . given this , and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners are n't committing any gun violence , what was the government 's immediate benefit of making this announcement on may 1 ? hon. bill blair: thank you , and i 'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify . along with the prohibition that we have put in place , we have also , using the order in council , established an amnesty period , but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons . they can not be used , they ca n't be taken to the range for shooting , they ca n't be used for hunting , they ca n't be sold and they ca n't be transferred , so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use . we have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible , safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society . i look forward to the member 's support for those measures as we go forward . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , since january 1 , 2002 , any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until may 1 of this year . how many times was this most recent mass murderer here in canada checked against a criminal database since january 2002 ? hon. bill blair: as the member is probably aware , there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms , and it 's not appropriate to discuss that . however , i think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes . they were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers . in the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder , they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to canadians , and that 's why we have prohibited them . i 'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws , such as new zealand , australia and the united kingdom , have also implemented very similar bans . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to the hon . member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , madam chair . i 'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the hmcs fredericton who died , and in particular to the family of captain kevin hagen . he was originally a constituent from nanaimoladysmith . other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors , including in schools , on public transit and in stores . taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces . the taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing . they do not have a lockdown . taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by covid-19 , and today it is number 119. will canada follow taiwan 's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get canadians back to work ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): thank you very much , madam chair , and i thank the member for his question . there 's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting canadians ' health and safety , but as the member has mentioned , there are many other aspects to ensuring that canadians are safe no matter where they go . for example , it is of utmost importance that canadians practise social distancing . social distancing can provide the most protection , in fact , when you 're out in public or you 're in another place where there are other people . wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection , and certainly dr. tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option , canadians should consider wearing a mask . mr. paul manly: thank you . i 'd like to give a shout-out to martha and her team , who are doing a fundraiser for the spca by making masks for citizens in my riding . madam chair , many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan , including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income . will the government make the cerb a universal benefit to ensure that all canadians who need help get help ? if not , will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their rrsp without penalties so that they can pay their bills ? hon. deb schulte: thank you very much , and i really appreciate the question . we do recognize that oas and gis are very important parts of the retirement income of canadians , particularly lower-income seniors . we 've already introduced measures like the gst credit supplement to help seniors . the cerb is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of covid-19 . we 've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25 % , and we 've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable canadians , including seniors the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): we are going back to mr. manly . thank you . hon. deb schulte: i do recognize that there 's more to be done . thank you . mr. paul manly: many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer , particularly sole proprietorships . i have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out . at the same time , we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services . will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in canada ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): i want to thank the hon . member for the question . small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country . that is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in covid-19 . whether it is a small business loan , a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance , or just lowering the cost by deferring gst or hst or customs duties , many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): mr. manly , you may have a very short question . mr. paul manly: thank you , madam chair . as we navigate this pandemic crisis , we are also in the middle of another major crisis : the climate emergency . will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning ? the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): the hon . minister has 15 seconds . hon. jonathan wilkinson (minister of environment and climate change): thank you for the question . the focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken . as we look forward , we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon . climate change is one of those , and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to ms. ashton . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): thank you , madam chair . my question is to the minister of indigenous services . first nations across northern manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep covid-19 out of their communities . many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions , but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place , such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals . we have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of covid-19 . what is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility ? why is n't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in berens river , a hospital in cross lake , a hospital in the island lake region ? if the government could n't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic , can it at least act in time for a potential second wave ? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): indeed , madam chair , one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we do n't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading covid-19 . a lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations . in the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of covid-19 , there are many measures that indigenous services canada and as a whole of government we will deploy , including surge capacity , increased ppe , and nurses and doctors . obviously , we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem , and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of covid-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures . ms. niki ashton: again , madam chair , to the minister of indigenous services , many of us across northern canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern saskatchewan , centred in la loche . the outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in fort mcmurray . these camps are making workers sick , and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities . these work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic . your government says it 's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe , yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns . will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now ? hon. marc miller: madam chair , the situation in la loche is a very pressing concern . members wo n't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing . we are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the mtis and dene communities in la loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect . this is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute , and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources , along with meadow lake and the northern inter-tribal health authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem . clearly , we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach ms. niki ashton: my question referred to la loche , but this is a broader issue . there are many work camps , including here in our north , that first nations are extremely concerned about . will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time ? hon. marc miller: one of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads , particularly the fear of clusters as communities , provinces , territories may choose to relax certain measures , is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it , particularly in northern and vulnerable communities . this is something for which we will need to have a serious approach , with both the minister of natural resources and also our provincial counterparts , to make sure that we are n't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we 're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading covid-19 . ms. niki ashton: madam chair , my question is for the minister of fisheries . hundreds of fishers and their families here in manitoba who work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation are desperately calling for emergency support . many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the ffmc to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing . when will your government announce support for inland fishers , including here in manitoba , and will you work to ensure that their product , healthy fish , can be provided here at home for people who need it ? hon. bernadette jordan: madam chair , we know that covid-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities , especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance . indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $ 306 million we 've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses . the funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions . we also announced earlier that the canadian northern economic development agency has made available $ 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses . we know that there 's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters . we 're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): i need to interrupt you . we 'll now hear from claudedebellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: thank you , madamchair . i do n't want to talk about tax cheats . i do n't want to talk about the $ 1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats . i want to ask the minister why she is n't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens , a legal but immoral practice in this day and age . can she explain why she is n't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance , which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , as soon as our government took office in 2015 , we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats . our government 's historic investments of almost $ 1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work . we 're already starting to see the results . as i was saying , i established an expert advisory committee to advise us . we 've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program . we 've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information . we 're auditing four countries a year . we 're working with the oecd . currently , over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ms.debellefeuille has the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , does the minister realize that she 's being filmed and recorded and that she is n't answering my question ? i do n't want to talk about cheats . i want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens . i can see that she does n't want to answer my question . i 'll ask her another question . can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens ? how much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism ? the government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-covid-19 . hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , i completely understand my colleague 's impatience . however , she must understand that this type of issue is very complex . under the former conservative government , the issue was n't a priority at all . regarding tax evasion abroad , our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the conservatives . over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): go ahead , madame debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , i 'm not impatient . however , i do n't understand the government 's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism , which is legal but completely immoral . our questions remain unanswered . my next question is for the minister of finance . the fdration de la relve agricole du qubec and the upa approached the minister of finance two weeks ago and still have n't received a response regarding the following issue . we know that many farms do n't pay wages . as a result , these farms are being penalized because they are n't eligible for the $ 40,000 in loans available through the canada emergency business account . to qualify for these loans , the farms needed a payroll of $ 20,000 to $ 1.5million in 2019. does the minister of finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $ 40,000 in loans ? hon. bill morneau: thank you , ms.debellefeuille . we know that the canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it . mr. damien kurek: on a point of order hon. bill morneau: that 's why we 're considering our approach . of course mr. damien kurek: i have a point of order . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ministermorneau , please wait a moment . a member is raising a point of order . mr. kurek , do you have a point of order ? you have to unmute yourself . mr. damien kurek: yes . it 's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): you 'll have to put yourself on english . rather , the minister has to put himself on french . hon. bill morneau: sorry . i was on the english channel . we know that the people who need the canada emergency response benefit must have access to it . that 's why we 're considering the challenges each time . if i receive a letter , i 'll look at it . once we have a response , we 'll pass it directly on to the member . the chair: the next question will go to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): this question is for the tourism minister . the tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis , yet despite the prime minister 's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed canadians who work in tourism , there 's still been nothing from this government . when will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted . i had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector , and clearly there 's a lot of anxiety . we also had the chance to work with all the g20 ministers of tourism all together , and we know we have to act the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. richards . mr. blake richards: i did n't really get much of an answer there . i hear a lot about talking and not much on action . tourism-based communities like the ones in banff and canmore , which i represent , are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85 % or higher . they also do n't qualify for a lot of the programs because they 're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from may to october , so they 're at risk of losing their entire season . i have a couple of very specific questions . will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help ? what does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic ? hon. mlanie joly: thank you . obviously , the tourism sector has access to many measures , including the ceba account , the $ 40,000 account . they also have access to the wage subsidy . they have access to rent relief . they will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies , and we 'll be coming up with the details soon . of course , in my colleague 's riding of banff , which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem , they will have access to the support through wd , western economic diversification . if there are particular cases you would like to raise with me , i would be more than happy to talk to you to see how , on the ground , we can help the tourism operators . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , clearly the tourism minister has n't been listening . she says she 's talking to the industry . she 's not hearing their concerns . what she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries . it does n't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they 'll have after the pandemic . let 's try another minister and see if we can get some answers . another industry that 's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry . it 's another industry the prime minister has promised to help , but there has n't been anything . clearly there 's a pattern here . the only so-called assistance there 's been to help hurting albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in . will the liberal government ever show any concern for albertans ? will they bring forward a plan to preserve canadian jobs ? will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of canadian oil before oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): in fact , mr. chair , the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry . we have the canada emergency wage subsidy , which covers 75 % of an employee 's wages for the employer . we have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $ 15 million to $ 60 million from the business development bank of canada . we continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of covid-19 on my province here in newfoundland and labrador and on alberta and saskatchewan . these three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time , a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with covid-19 . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , a lot of these things we 're hearing about are n't going to actually help the industry to recover . what we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed . maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of canadians back to work . will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects ? will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan: mr. chair , we have been working with our provincial partners . we have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry . we have been working with labour , concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers . we 're particularly proud of our orphan wells program , which was launched by the alberta government in conjunction with us . it was launched last week . i am pleased to inform this house that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected . the chair: that 's all the time we have for questions today . i want to thank all the members for taking part . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . thank you .

the chair brought the meeting to order , announcing that the purpose of the meeting was to discuss covid-19 's impact on canada . five petitions were presented : to recognize indeginous languages as official languages of canada , to improve the organ donation system , to push for a made-in-canada green economy , to decriminalize drug possession to improve public health , and to protect firearm ownership of law-abiding firearm owners . mr. pierre paul-hus suggested that the government should not try to pass gun-control legislation or release prisoners during the pandemic . the prime minister disagreed , claiming that both passing gun-control and releasing imprisoned canadians who did not pose a threat to society advanced the safety of canadians .

what did paul-hus think about the introduction of petitions and prioritization of government matters ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call the meeting to order . welcome to the third meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . pursuant to the order of reference of monday , april20 , the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements , allowing members to present petitions , and questioning ministers of the crown , including the prime minister , in respect of the covid-19 pandemic . i understand there 's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the canadian armed forces who lost their lives last wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of greece . we 'll return to order . colleagues , we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the covid-19 pandemic . as we do , canadians , like everyone around the world , are doing their best to live their lives until things improve . meanwhile , as we look towards the future , i believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history . at this very moment , the dominion carillonneur , dr. andrea mccrady , is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the netherlands by the canadian forces . in may 1945 , canadian forces played a major role in liberating the dutch people from nazi occupation . may 5 is now a national holiday in the netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries . today 's meeting is taking place by video conference . the proceedings will be made available via the house of commons website . please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee . let me remind you that , as in the house or in committee , members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings . in order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings , i will outline a few rules . interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the house . at the bottom of your screen , you can choose floor , english or french . as you have seen , i change as i am speaking . i have now switched over to english in order to speak english . if you look at the bottom , you have a little flag that indicates whether it 's english or french , and that 's how we will be speaking . it makes it easier . that was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session . i understand that there are no statements by ministers . we can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions . in addition , to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented , the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee . i thank all the members for their usual co-operation . thank you all . now we 'll proceed to presenting petitions . our first petition comes from the honourable member for sherwood parkfort saskatchewan , mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today . the first petition is with respect to government bill c-7 . petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime . it includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person 's consent . the petitioners urge the house of commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia , and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people . this would require that bill to be amended or not passed . the second petition is with respect to senate public bill s-204 . this is on organ harvesting and trafficking . petitioners call on members of the house , and hopefully the senate as well , to support bill s-204 , which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent . it would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking . thank you very much . the chair: thank you . i want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us . if you do n't have one , please talk to your it ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible . the reason for them is not so much for what you hear , but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult . part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset , which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members . now we go to the member for beacheseast york , mr. erskine-smith . mr. nathaniel erskine-smith (beacheseast york, lib.): mr. chair , i had to learn how to tie my tie all over again . it 's been so long . i want to thank jenna robar , who 's led this petition e-2453 . the petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in canada and that 2019 , last year , was declared by the un to be the year of indigenous languages . they draw attention to article 13 of the undrip and to the trc 's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. fundamentally , they call upon the government of canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of canada and to have each language recognized nationally , with implementations on regional and provincial levels , acknowledging that many regions have different languages . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): mr. chair , i am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents , myles lynch of st. andrews west in my riding . myles made history as the first canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants . myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years , and he 's only 22 years old . myles created a documentary called 8 thousand myles , which had a few showings in my riding . it documented his journey across canada . one thing myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation . myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue . i mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them . i am proud to have this certified today , with 1,318 signatures , asking the standing committee on health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program . i give kudos to myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system . kudos to myles . i 'm proud to present this petition today . mr. peter julian (new westminsterburnaby, ndp): mr. chair , i 'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of toronto , mississauga and brampton , ontario , who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of canadians who have signed similar petitions . given that canadians are living through unprecedented , catastrophic climate events , and at the same time our society , as you know , is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of canadian families are only $ 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing , these petitioners are calling on the government of canada to support motion m-1 , a made-in-canada green new deal that i am presenting in front of the house of commons . it calls on canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency , and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , it 's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from courtenayalberni . they are concerned , obviously , about fentanyl-related deaths . over 12,000 canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources . they cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective ; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs ; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl . they are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources , with proper measures and bylaws , will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs . problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption . they are calling on the government of canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the emergencies act . they are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession , as has been done in portugal and other countries , and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally , recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source . mr. brad vis (missionmatsquifraser canyon, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of canadians in my riding with the government 's approach to firearms legislation and regulation . the petition highlights that the liberal government 's december 5 , 2019 , speech from the throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation ; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in canadian law ; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions ; that the experts , including chiefs of police , agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety ; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into canada from the united states ; and that the liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs , drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities . the petitioners in missionmatsquifraser canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners ; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed , rcmp-vetted canadians ; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement , on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs , on mental health and on providing the canada border services agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively . the chair: very good . that 's all for petitions today . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair . ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking . i want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly , not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters . we start the question period with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in canada and its impacts , the prime minister is deceiving canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners . why ? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): mr.chair , i feel that all canadians were affected by the massacre in nova scotia . once again , too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief . during the last election campaign , we promised to ban military-style assault weapons , and that is exactly what we have done . we will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control . it is a shame that , once more , the conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i understand the prime minister 's reply . however , i would like to know whether he considers that , with this order in council , organized crime , street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons . right hon. justin trudeau: this is indeed only a first step , but it is an important one . we are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities , to strengthen the control at our borders , and to implement other measures . i am pleased to hear the hon . member speak of those measures , because we are going to work together in the house to strengthen gun control . i hope that the conservative party will be part of that discussion in a positive way , in order to keep canadians safe . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i can simply say to the prime minister that the conservative party has always been committed to battling criminals , not law-abiding citizens . speaking of criminals , we know that , even before the pandemic , the prime minister had asked the parole board of canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly . now we are learning that , because of the pandemic , some releases are happening very quickly . the minister of public safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older , but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released . can the prime minister give us an explanation ? right hon. justin trudeau: the protection , the safety and the health of all canadians are important for the government . this is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected . we have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases , but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for canadians . we have managed to find the right balance . we must protect canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe . those two things go hand-in-hand . mr. pierre paul-hus: so is the prime minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience covid-19 within the walls ? right hon. justin trudeau: there are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have one minute left . mr. pierre paul-hus: thank you , mr.chair . the chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus . australia asked for an in-depth investigation , but has received threats from the communist regime . is canada going to stand by its allies in the five eyes and demand that the chinese government be completely transparent ? right hon. justin trudeau: we continue to stand in solidarity with our allies , including the five eyes , as they have stood in solidarity with canada in terms of the two canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in china . in the coming months and years , we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic , including questions that are important for china . at the same time , we are going to work hard to ensure that all canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic . the chair: we now move to mr.blanchet . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am sorry that i do not have my official headset . i was elsewhere , and i did not bring it with me . i hope that you can still hear me properly . for some days , discussions have been going on between people from the bloc qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in quebec and canada . the gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $ 25per week , or $ 110per month . by the way , i hate the term `` old age security . i prefer `` senior security . the discussion has been going on for some time and it 's a proposal that we made in the election campaign . we are asking for it to be done at this point , at least temporarily . parliament stopped sitting in the middle of march . we are now in may , and seniors still have nothing . they are impatient themselves , and we spend a good part of our days answering them . given that impatience , i realized i should not be the one answering them , it should be the prime minister . so here is my question for the prime minister : what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in quebec and canada in the very short term ? right hon. justin trudeau: clearly , seniors need support and significant services from us because of covid-19 . our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of covid-19 . then we announced different measures , including measures for seniors . the most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the gst , which will help them very quickly . we have also reduced by 25 % the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds . we have also channelled $ 9million through the united way , to help the most vulnerable seniors . absolutely , i recognize that more must be done . i am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians , including those in the bloc qubcois , to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term . in terms of the pandemic , they have concerns about their physical security , but also about their financial security . we will have more to say about this soon . mr. yves-franois blanchet: in the last few hours , the prime minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties , including the bloc qubcois , on a completely different matter . we are very open to that discussion , but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of quebec . the cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors , as it has for everyone else . it 's true for all seniors over 65years old , of course . the current old age pension represents less than half of the canada emergency student benefit . it represents less than one third of the basic canada emergency response benefit . seniors in my constituency , as in any other of the 338constituencies , are asking what we are doing . they are asking how there can be nothing for them . when will there be something for them ? i want to be able to give them an answer of some kind . what is the prime minister 's answer ? i will repeat it to them . right hon. justin trudeau: there will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors , particularly the most vulnerable seniors . we recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone . that is why we have to do better for our seniors . there are horror stories , whether about the chslds , or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country . far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief . there are seniors who are alone , seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again . we have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war . now we have to fight for them in their homes . that is exactly what we are going to do . the chair: we 'll go to the next question . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , every day i hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head . instead of making sure that canadians get the help they need , the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks . if the prime minister wo n't commit to a universal benefit , will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we knew , when this pandemic hit , that we needed to help canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast , particularly the most vulnerable . that is why we moved forward rapidly with the canada emergency response benefit , which has helped over seven million individual canadians and has made a huge difference . we had to move very quickly to get this money out to people , and that is exactly what we did . we also recognized that there would be a need to do more . that is why since that moment , we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well . we have more to do , but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government continues to leave people behind . i spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year . she recently found a job and a place to live . however , because she did n't make $ 5,000 last year , when the pandemic hit she did n't qualify for any benefits . she did n't qualify , but she is one of the people who need it the most . i 'm wondering why the prime minister does n't think she deserves our support . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift canadians out of poverty and will support them . over the past five years , we 've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country , and we 've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we 're doing . we will continue to . we 've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable . at the same time , we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million canadians who successfully receive the cerb . we recognize there 's more to do , and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need , but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help . if a company is cheating the public , using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share , it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits . other countries , like poland , denmark and france , have made this commitment , and if they can do it , so can we . the prime minister said one thing one day and another the next . will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens , it will not receive public funds ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the measures we 've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs , regardless of the companies they work for . it is a shame to hear the ndp , which used to be the party of workers , choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for . we have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers . that is not help for the companies . that is help for the workers , and that has been our focus all the way through : ordinary canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of covid-19 . that has been our priority , and that is what canadians need right now . of course , we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion . we spent a billion dollars to strengthen our ms. laurel collins : mr. chair , can i ask my last question ? right hon . justin trudeau : we will continue to do that . the chair: i 'm just going to pause the time for a moment . i want to remind honourable members that we 're trying to stay within committee rules , which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time . i just want to remind our members of that . i 'll go back to ms. collins . she has about 45 seconds left , and hopefully that 's about half and half for the question and the answer . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins: thanks so much , mr. chair . my last question is about housing and homelessness . my community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit , and now people who are living on the streets or in parks do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home . in victoria , the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people , at least for the short term , in local hotels . will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term , stable housing ? the chair: the right honourable prime minister , in 25 seconds or less , please . right hon. justin trudeau: yes , mr. chair , we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $ 40 billion toward housing . working with partners , we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country , but there is more to do . we are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments . we recognize that during this pandemic there 's even more to do for vulnerable canadians , and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens . mr. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): a point of order , mr.chair . the chair: order . mr.godin has a point of order . mr. jol godin: mr.chair , i can not hear the french interpretation . could we please check so that i can hear in french what the prime minister is saying ? the chair: okay . can we check that ? mr. jol godin: thank you . right hon. justin trudeau: i can try speaking english . i believe i was on the english tab , as is important . are you hearing the translation now ? the chair: that is exactly what the issue was . i just want to point that out to all the members . i 'm speaking english right now and i 'm on the english toggle at the bottom of the screen . it does create a bit of a disjoint when we 're speaking , but it 's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone . the next question will go to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): mr. chair , as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum , i want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash . i know that i speak for all parliamentarians when i extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones . mr. chair , i want to raise with the prime minister an issue that i 've raised several times before , and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program . there is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country . last year , they acquired another company . those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy , but because of rules that the government designed , together they do not . even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible , so far they 've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program . as a result , thousands of jobs are threatened . will the prime minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for brandt tractor all across the country ? right hon. justin trudeau: i thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding . as i told him when we spoke directly , finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding . we recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy , but i know that finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it , so that the workers in his community can get the support they need . hon. andrew scheer: the prime minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well , so we 're hoping for some good news . just flagging the time and date , it is well into may now and important decisions have to be made in very short order . there are other aspects of the government 's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks . the plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70 % of their revenue . as provinces start to open up , many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35 % or 45 % of regular revenues . they will not be able to access these programs and , in many cases , there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work . will the prime minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country , and that 's exactly what we did . we 're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country . i am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work . we are getting closer to that point , but we are not there yet . we are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis . as different provinces move forward towards reopening , as we look at different paths forward , i know that i will be able to count on all members in the house and , indeed , on canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way . that will be good to work on together once we get there . the chair: we have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , no one is disputing the need to move quickly . we are now in may , though , and these programs have been announced for weeks . canadians have been accessing them . the problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well , but we 're also going to see an additional challenge , where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit , who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours , are faced with a hard cap of $ 1,000 a month before they lose the cerb . conservatives are proposing a progressive system , a more flexible system , where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored . again , will the prime minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work ? the chair: i believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up , but i 'll give the right honourable prime minister about 30 seconds to answer that , please . right hon. justin trudeau: thank you , mr. chair . our priority was getting support for canadians right across the country with the cerb , with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students , for seniors , for farmers and for agricultural producers . that has been our priority , and that 's what we have worked on . i hear the concerns that the conservative party has around disincentives . we are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen , to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it . however , our overarching priority was allowing canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home , care for their loved ones , buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic . that 's exactly what we did . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu now . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): mr. chair , seniors in my riding are struggling . we 've heard the prime minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down , rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing . he 's been saying for weeks that in the coming days , something would be announced for seniors . the fact is that the liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security . which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors ? hon. deb schulte (minister of seniors): mr. chair , after a lifetime of hard work , of course canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security . covid-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors . they have a greater need for services and supports . happily , their pensions and their benefits are still flowing , unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs , but it 's still tough . we introduced measures ms. marilyn gladu : which day ? hon . deb schulte : at the beginning of april . people received a gst credit , a supplementary payment that was $ 400 on average for single seniors and $ 600 for couples . that was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: yes , mr. chair . i think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question . i would just ask the minister to keep to that . i would like to go to my second question . the chair: i want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible . ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: very good , mr. chair . my riding is on the border of canada and the u.s. we see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the u.s. and actually in the interpretation of different cbsa agents . while we have americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish , individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined . we have people who have purchased masts from canadian producers for their boats , and who want to come and pick them up , who are not being allowed to do that . people trying to sell plasma into the u.s. are being denied . when will they clarify the rules to the cbsa agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce , including individual commerce , is understood ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by cbsa to stop all non-essential travel . those measures have been very successful . we 've seen a 99 % reduction in international travel coming into canada . at the same time , we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach canada and we could put groceries on our shelves . we also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border . we have provided cbsa with clarification . their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent . i 've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases . when we receive those inquiries , we follow up immediately . i want to assure the member that we 'll continue to do that . the work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of canadians , and we will continue with that work . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses . we see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outei , cerb , the wage subsidy , etc . what is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , first , let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult . the intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge . we are looking at ways that we can ensure that the canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application . more than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans , representing over $ 20 billion . we are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process , recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact , and we will have more to say on that . the chair: the next question will go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , this is my first appearance , so i hope you can hear me okay . the chair: we can hear you fine . please proceed . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . it 's good to see everyone 's faces . on april 3 , the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters . since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in prince edward island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time , but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled , giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors . this double standard is severely unfair and atlantic harvesters are furious , as demonstrated during the protests on the canso causeway yesterday . when will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 , 24 and 26 ? hon. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): mr. chair , when making decisions with regard to when seasons open , a number of factors are taken into account . they are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season , what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season , as well socio-economic impacts on the area . we 're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions . we do not make them lightly . they are difficult decisions to make . in the decisions we 've made around the gulf , one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date . that is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of may . we 're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water . we 're looking forward to the product that they bring in . we 'll continue do everything we can to support the industry . mr. mel arnold: thank you , minister . i believe the time the chair: excuse me . no , the hon . minister had another 15 seconds coming to her . i 'd like to remind hon . members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking . i 'll do my best to try to keep it about level . maybe i 'll start muting if it 's necessary , but interrupting is not going to solve anything . mr. arnold , i 'll let you continue . you have three minutes and nine seconds left . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . west coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in british columbia , especially in coastal communities , and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government . last year , the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science . a year later , the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable , science-based solutions to conserve b.c . 's public fisheries . does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support canada 's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , the fishery is important in every coastal community . i recognize its value for our economy , as well as what it means to our coastal communities . that 's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we 're doing everything we possibly can to support them . during these extremely difficult times , we 're working on measures with the fishery in b.c. , as well as on the atlantic coast and eastern quebec , to make sure that we 're delivering for them and that all of the issues they 're having are being addressed . the chair: mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , canada 's seniors , especially those on basic incomes , are being hard hit by the covid-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services . seniors require adequate caregiver supports , physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security . why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? will the government support canada 's senior citizens ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds or less , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to assure my hon . colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time . we have provided a gst credit supplement of $ 400 for single seniors and $ 600 for couples , for low- and modest-income seniors . we have also ensured that the canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to covid-19 . we 've made them eligible . the chair: we 'll go back to mr. arnold . mr. arnold , you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . on april 23 , my colleagues and i called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in canada 's essential food supply chains . what has the government done to match students and other canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors , including those in the fish and seafood sector ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , we 're doing all we can to make sure , using our existing employment programs , that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer . we know that this is going to be really tough , especially in areas like agriculture , so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government , and a number of different initiatives including canada summer jobs , which i 'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days . the chair: now we 'll go on to the next question from ms. harder . ms. rempel , do you have a point of order ? hon. michelle rempel garner (calgary nose hill, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . with my colleague , mr. arnold , it 's the second time that i note you 've threatened to cut off a conservative microphone . i 'm just wondering , given that this is n't the house of commons and it 's structured as a committee , what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of parliament using a mute button . it seems a little dictatorial , and i was just wondering whether you could clarify that , based on the standing orders . the chair: i do n't think i threatened to use mute , but thank you for bringing that up . i am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal , so that there are no interruptions on either side . that 's how we 're going to continue . i did n't use the mute . i did it verbally and i think that 's a little more civil way of doing it . i hope you approve . i 'm not asking you to comment on that . we 'll go over to ms. harder . thank you . hon. michelle rempel garner: but , on the point of order , mr. chair , you actually , to me , last week , and to mr. arnold , did suggest that you were going to use the mute button . the chair: i believe that if we take everything out and go over it .... bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where i threatened , and we 'll go over it , but i do n't think this is the venue to do that . if you want to bring forward a point of order , i 'm all in favour of it . hon. michelle rempel garner: well , i am bringing forward a point of order . i 've asked you to clarify the chair: very good . we 'll look into it and get back to you . thank you . we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government 's initiative to put a gun ban in place . does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in nova scotia ? the chair: the honourable minister in 15 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: we have heard from health professionals , women 's rights organizations , victims groups and the police and our unions . they 're all very supportive of the government 's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people . ms. rachael harder: it 's interesting that the minister is misleading canadians in that comment because the canadian association of chiefs of police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort , that it actually will not protect canadians . so i 'd be curious . how many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the liberal government ? hon. bill blair: yes , let 's actually quote what the police have said . the ontario association of chiefs of police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles . the chief in toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety , and the canadian association of police chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles . ms. rachael harder: the answer to that question is zero . absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the liberals ' legislation that 's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms . can the prime minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes ? the chair: the honourable minister in 25 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: yes , to be very clear , the order in council actually is targeted at weapons , weapons that were designed for military use , and in their design and in their intent , to kill people , they 've actually been used in this country , at cole polytechnique ; in moncton ; at a quebec city mosque ; in fredericton ; at mayerthorpe and most recently in nova scotia . these are weapons that really have no place .... they are being used and have been used in canada and around the world to commit mass murder , and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: thank you . now i understand the prime minister has his food prepared for him at 24 sussex drive and then it 's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives . contrary to his privileged understanding , food actually originates with farmers . now , they 're in a crisis right now , which means that regular canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs . the canadian federation of agriculture requested $ 2.6 billion to help them out . today , the government announced one-tenth of this amount . why does n't the prime minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep canada fed ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , let me assure the hon . member that our government cares very , very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country . let me just say i am grateful to all the farmers , like my dad , who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding . we , as canadians , are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower , and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers . ms. rachael harder: i 'm confused as to why the prime minister did n't take my question , and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister does n't feel it 's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today . when we have farmers who produce for canadians on a daily basis and they 're asking some serious and some very important questions , and we do n't even have a minister who 's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation , that 's shameful . several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of covid-19 and , as a result , farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected . cattle producers in my region are spending more than $ 60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen . the amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket . it 's a crumb . when will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in canada ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just say that i feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me , the deputy prime minister , answer questions about agriculture . i am actually very proud to speak up for canada 's amazing farmers , for our country 's amazing ranchers , for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers . i feel so close to our farmers . i love them and our government supports them . today , we announced $ 252 million of support for our producers . they need it . they deserve it . we 're here for them . the chair: now we 'll go on to mr. bezan . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week . i 'm sure that all members of the house stand shoulder to shoulder with the families , with the crew of the hmcs fredericton and , indeed , with the entire canadian armed forces community during this time of grief . can the minister of national defence give us an update as to the cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of greece last week ? hon. harjit s. sajjan (minister of national defence): mr. chair , the deaths of the canadian armed forces members are felt by all , and especially the families . our condolences go out to them . our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them , and that 's exactly what we are doing . currently , the investigation is ongoing . our investigative team is currently on the ground . i actually spoke with the italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that 's required . the chair: i 'm afraid i 'm going to have to cut you off there , if we 're going by the rules that were pointed out by the house . mr. bezan . mr. james bezan: thank you , mr. chair . through you to minister sajjan again , i 'm going to change gears a bit . i know that back in early january , military intelligence through cf intelligence command was reporting , through the chain of command , the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in wuhan . on what date was he , as minister of national defence , given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in china ? hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , we have been following this crisis from day one . we work with our five eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort , right from the beginning . i can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information . obviously , i ca n't discuss the intelligence in this forum , but i can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information . mr. james bezan: minister sajjan , we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in national defence . it was reported in the media that in early january the hierarchy within the canadian armed forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak . i asked you , minister , when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence . hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , i get regular briefings on intelligence . yes , i was made aware of this in january . as with all our intelligence , we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies . one thing i can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet . mr. james bezan: what was that timeline ? from the time you were first told , minister sajjan , about the coronavirus outbreak in wuhan , what did you do with that intelligence ? when did you give it to the prime minister or to minister hajdu as the minister of health ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me say that our government 's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of canadian intelligence agencies throughout . we have been working on this from very early on . on january 2 , phac first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation . on january 14 , it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities . in january , the prime minister convened a meeting of the incident response group , and in january we increased screening at all major airports . all of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community , and of course our work with our five eyes , nato and norad allies . mr. james bezan: i want to come back the chair: we now move to mr.ste-marie . mr. james bezan: i still have 30 seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): can i go ahead , mr.chair ? the chair: yes , go ahead . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . in an interview with grald fillion , tax expert andr lareau , who specializes in tax havens , pointed out that $ 350billion canadian is parked in just 12tax havens . companies are using tax havens for financing , operations and intellectual property activities . mr.lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it . he said that it 's time for canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $ 250-billion deficit , and that if it does n't act now to change things , it never will . is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , as soon as we took office , in 2015 , our government made cracking down on tax evaders in canada and abroad a priority . that 's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort . i realize that my fellow member is impatient , but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue . under our leadership , in three years , the canada revenue agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the conservatives were in power . as we speak , the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion . i repeat , this is a top priority for our government . mr. gabriel ste-marie: you 're right , i am very impatient , because whenever i bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally , the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters . i am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies . since parliament began sitting virtually , it 's been mentioned a few times that denmark and poland have decided to deal with the issue . even france 's finance minister , bruno lemaire , said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance . we hear theprime minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers , so i 'd like to cite another examplebanks . the government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities , and yet , the five major banks in toronto , alone , are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens . this is unacceptable . this has nothing to do with wages for workers , and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets , cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after . is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , our government is taking unprecedented steps through the canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by covid-19 . this is largely a trust-based program , and we will not tolerate abuse . anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences . applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim . what 's more , any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount . anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225 % of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison . the canada revenue agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim . as i mentioned , cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government . the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds to ask your question , and about the same for the answer . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . that 's an excellent answer , but it has nothing to do with my question . the minister of finance has the power to fix the problem now . although completely immoral , the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the income tax regulations . through simple regulatory amendments , the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse . we are going to have a $ 250-billion deficit to pay off , and everyone is going to have to chip in , including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment , our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job , and we are starting to see results . i set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations . we tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program . we signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries . we audit four jurisdictions a year . we also work closely with the oecd . the chair: we now move on to another member . the next questioner is mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , i 'm sharing my time slot with the member for surreynewton . in the wake of covid-19 , so many canadians have been affected in so many ways . financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country . i 'm proud of how the government of canada has been beside canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported canadians when they needed it most . in bonavistaburintrinity and across our country , our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts . last week , my colleague , the minister of fisheries and oceans , announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing canada 's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process , store , package and distribute healthy , high-quality products on to the plates of canadians . the fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures . they are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices . they are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times . when can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters ' requests for assistance ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague from bonavistaburintrinity for keeping us well aware of what 's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors . we know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities , our coastal communities . it 's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that 's why we want to be there to support them . we 've already taken steps by making sure that the cerb is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers . as well , we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers ei are also able to qualify for it . we also have made an investment of $ 62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of covid-19 . we know there is more to do . we know that the harvesters need support . we are working with our partners across industry to make sure we 're hearing what their major concerns are . we know they are going to have some very challenging times this season . we will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days . the chair: the next questioner is mr. dhaliwal . mr. sukh dhaliwal (surreynewton, lib.): mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: we have a point of order . mr. kurek . mr. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): sorry , but there seems to be an issue with the audio . i 'm unable to hear the honourable member . the chair: it is very faint . mr. dhaliwal , can you check your audio to make sure everything 's working well ? mr. sukh dhaliwal: it was the chair: there we go . it 's fine now . i think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it was n't being picked up . there you go . very good . mr. sukh dhaliwal: mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers , transport companies to warehousing . with provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy , there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen . with so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions , and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum , how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work . one of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories . that 's why i was so pleased that last week the prime minister , together with all the first ministers of the country , was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart . this is so important because , as my colleague has pointed out , all of our business , our economic activity , happens across the country . it happens across provincial and territorial boundaries . i would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country . they belong to different parties , but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside . we have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus , and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen canada . thank you . the chair: the next question goes to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson (edmonton strathcona, ndp): thank you , mr. chair , for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing . i 'd like to start by asking about supports for workers . in alberta , meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all covid-19 cases . the government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with covid-19 . now , two workers are dead , at least six more are in intensive care and covid-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities . there are over 1,400 cases . yesterday , employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed . on march 27 , regarding the cerb , the minister of finance said that if workers do n't feel comfortable in their work , if they decide to stay home , they can apply for the benefit , yet the website says differently . will the minister guarantee that every canadian receiving cerb , ei or the cesb will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to covid-19 ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me thank the member , first of all , for her really very important question . i think all of us share the concern for canada 's essential workers who are keeping us safe , putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions . when it comes to the cargill plant , this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in . my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant . the decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities . to the question my colleague asked about workers , it is absolutely the case that no canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe , and it is also very much the case that any canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home . this is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: we will go on to ms. mcpherson for the next question . ms. heather mcpherson: i just want to be clear , because i 'm not a hundred per cent sure that i got an answer in that response , so i 'll try one more time . knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work , can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work , they will be able to access the cerb , or was the minister of finance incorrect when he spoke on march 27 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'm sorry , but i was struggling with my mute button . i apologize . let me just be very clear . no canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions . ms. heather mcpherson: but then could they access the cerb ? hon. chrystia freeland: in a time of coronavirus that is even more the case , and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair to avoid back and forth , just to try to keep some order in the meeting . ms. mcpherson , please continue . ms. heather mcpherson: i 'm sorry , chair . i have another question on the protection for workers . at the meat-packing plant , workers are calling for the plant to be shut down . in fact , we know that 85 % of workers are afraid for their safety . if the provincial government wo n't shut down the plant , will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the canadian food inspection agency ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , on the canadian food inspection agency , let me be very clear that my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has been in touch with provincial authorities . she has been in touch with the plant . the duties of the food inspection agency , of course , are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe . that is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on . we are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: we will go back to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson: mr. chair , this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in alberta . can the finance minister please let us know if cargill , a company that is owned by billionaires , with business in luxembourg , a known tax haven , has received any federal funding this year for covid-related support ? hon. diane lebouthillier: this is a tough time for canadians , and our government is doing everything it can to support them . more than 7million canadians have applied for the canada emergency response benefit , which the canada revenue agency and service canada administer . i want to say how proud i am of the work the agency is doing ; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time . ministerqualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims . the chair: we are moving on to the next question . we 'll continue now with mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my question today is for the prime minister . potato farmers in new brunswick and across canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry , but due to the pandemic , they now have no customers . it 's estimated that there is $ 300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage . what is the prime minister 's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i think all of us as canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country . we are aware that the coronavirus , by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries , has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes . the program announced today by the prime minister and my colleague , the minister of agriculture , will be very helpful for potato farmers , including with the surplus food program that starts with a $ 50 million fund , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. bragdon now . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , thank you . with an estimated $ 300 million worth of potatoes in storage , the announced funding from the government today simply does n't go far enough . in 2018 the new brunswick potato industry lost over $ 20 million . it is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $ 40 million . for many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018 , another major loss is totally unacceptable . how does the prime minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the honourable member spoke about farmers generally . the program today is $ 252 million , which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers , of course , have access to . on potato farmers , in particular , i agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern . i think all canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used , and that 's why the $ 50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic . the $ 16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants . does the government truly believe that the announced $ 125 million that is shared between beef , poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of canadians ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef , pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country . i am very pleased as a canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves , but also enough food to feed the world . that is why the $ 125 million specifically to support our beef , pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , the government 's announcement of $ 252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the canadian federation of agriculture 's request for immediate government relief for farmers . the president of the canadian federation of agriculture , mary robinson , put it today something like this : that if the farmhouse is on fire , the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water . this will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation . does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need ? when will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i do n't know about the honourable member , but where i come from , $ 252 million is not just crumbs . i know that canadian farmers do n't feel that $ 252 million is nothing , either . i would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today : the $ 77 million to support food processors , which will not only be important for the processors , but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them ; and the $ 250 million that we would like to add to the canadian dairy commission 's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars , which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question . go ahead , mrs. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): mr. chair , a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business , and they are on cerb . they were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified , and he is receiving $ 8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year . why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , any individual who has lost work for covid reasons is eligible for the cerb , regardless of their personal circumstances . if you made $ 5,000 in the past year and are a resident of canada , you qualify for the cerb . this is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of covid . mrs. cathay wagantall: clearly , high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time . the government 's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state , in all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence . why is the prime minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our cbsa officers first , giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border , the member opposite voted against it . i 'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it . let us be very clear . the evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used , and have been used , to kill innocent people . countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like new zealand , australia , the united kingdomhave all recognized that there 's no place for these weapons in a civil society . we promised canadians that we would act on that concern . there have been far too many people killed with these weapons , and even most recently , to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in nova scotia , the time to act is now , and we 've acted . mrs. cathay wagantall: last week the minister of agriculture said , step by step we are giving our farmers ... the tools they need to continue their ... work . on april 30 , the canadian federation of agriculture called on the minister to create a $ 2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in canada . this morning , the prime minister announced $ 252 million , hit-and-miss , across the agriculture sector . with all due respect , this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector . instead of being here to speak to this announcement , the minister has chosen to do a press conference . this certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability . if the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place , how does she see it is right to be providing $ 9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , first of all , let me say i do not , as has now been suggested by two members opposite , consider it in any way shameful that i should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector . our government strongly supports our farmers . i have to say i personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them . the $ 252 million of support is real and meaningful , and it is directed exactly where it is needed . it is directed at food processors , beef and pork producers and the dairy sector . as to the question about students , let me just point out that farm kids are students too , and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students . i know they , their parents and grandparents are very mrs. cathay wagantall: time is up . the chair: mr.lehoux , the next question goes to you . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . meat packing plants like quebec-based olymel are extremely worried that they wo n't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic . in the summer , these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation . however , the canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money . that 's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors . when is the government going to make these critical changes ? hon. carla qualtrough: i can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work . we know we need to support students with income support , but we also need to create jobs . we are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through canada summer jobs , through the the chair: there is a point of order . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , what the minister is saying is not being interpreted . the chair: we 'll just check to see how the technology is going . is everything okay now ? mrs. claude debellefeuille: yes , it 's working . the chair: let 's try that again , minister . hon. carla qualtrough: last week , as part of the measures announced around supporting our students , we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs , including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors . we know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need . this is exactly what we 're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy , and that 's what we 'll continue to do . we wo n't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times . mr. richard lehoux: i 'm not sure the minister understood my question about the canada emergency student benefit . i am very concerned about the agricultural sector , but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind . a number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer . this government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students . minister , what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , with all due respect , i believe we are helping students . we 've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis . that 's why we 're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work . we 're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer . we know they want to work and they want to serve . mr. richard lehoux: i hope that we 'll see some concrete results . pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country 's shutdown triggered by the pandemic . processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts . for the past five years , the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved . now more than ever , producers need these programs . however , the programs have n't been reviewed yet . when will the government make these changes , including the changes to agristability , and when can producers access them ? hon. chrystia freeland: we announced over $ 77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus . to help livestock and pork producers , we established agrirecovery , a national initiative that will provide $ 125million to help producers adapt to market changes . we 're launching the chair: mr.lehoux has the floor . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . i understand some of what the minister is saying . the measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector , since the sector had asked for about $ 2.6billion . i think that it 's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms , given the significant need for sovereignty . many canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear , as i was saying earlier . something must be done quickly , before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours . has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place ? hon. chrystia freeland: our country , canada , will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food . canada is a major beef , pork and grain producer . canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that . i want to mention another significant part of our announcement today , which is the $ 50million surplus food purchase program . this is very significant . i think that all canadians must support this initiative . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): we 'll now move on to the next question . mr.calkins , the member for reddeerlacombe , has the floor . mr. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): madam chair , how will the government 's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners ' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the united states ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , in response to that , i would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society , so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people . i would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border . we 'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police . we 'll bring forward new authorities , new offences , new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border . we 're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns . to deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally , there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences . mr. blaine calkins: the government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts . the recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy . a legal opinion that 's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres . that means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited . that is the same firearm that olympic trap shooters , olympic skeet shooters , duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis . why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , i 'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member . first of all , we have prohibited large-bore weapons , such as grenade launchers , but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun , i would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width , both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on friday . i 'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in canada when it comes to firearms legislation . if the entirety of the barrel length is considered , then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres . i would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners . there is no plan for a buyback program in this policy , and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms . given this , and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners are n't committing any gun violence , what was the government 's immediate benefit of making this announcement on may 1 ? hon. bill blair: thank you , and i 'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify . along with the prohibition that we have put in place , we have also , using the order in council , established an amnesty period , but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons . they can not be used , they ca n't be taken to the range for shooting , they ca n't be used for hunting , they ca n't be sold and they ca n't be transferred , so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use . we have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible , safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society . i look forward to the member 's support for those measures as we go forward . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , since january 1 , 2002 , any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until may 1 of this year . how many times was this most recent mass murderer here in canada checked against a criminal database since january 2002 ? hon. bill blair: as the member is probably aware , there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms , and it 's not appropriate to discuss that . however , i think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes . they were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers . in the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder , they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to canadians , and that 's why we have prohibited them . i 'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws , such as new zealand , australia and the united kingdom , have also implemented very similar bans . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to the hon . member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , madam chair . i 'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the hmcs fredericton who died , and in particular to the family of captain kevin hagen . he was originally a constituent from nanaimoladysmith . other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors , including in schools , on public transit and in stores . taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces . the taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing . they do not have a lockdown . taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by covid-19 , and today it is number 119. will canada follow taiwan 's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get canadians back to work ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): thank you very much , madam chair , and i thank the member for his question . there 's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting canadians ' health and safety , but as the member has mentioned , there are many other aspects to ensuring that canadians are safe no matter where they go . for example , it is of utmost importance that canadians practise social distancing . social distancing can provide the most protection , in fact , when you 're out in public or you 're in another place where there are other people . wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection , and certainly dr. tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option , canadians should consider wearing a mask . mr. paul manly: thank you . i 'd like to give a shout-out to martha and her team , who are doing a fundraiser for the spca by making masks for citizens in my riding . madam chair , many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan , including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income . will the government make the cerb a universal benefit to ensure that all canadians who need help get help ? if not , will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their rrsp without penalties so that they can pay their bills ? hon. deb schulte: thank you very much , and i really appreciate the question . we do recognize that oas and gis are very important parts of the retirement income of canadians , particularly lower-income seniors . we 've already introduced measures like the gst credit supplement to help seniors . the cerb is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of covid-19 . we 've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25 % , and we 've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable canadians , including seniors the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): we are going back to mr. manly . thank you . hon. deb schulte: i do recognize that there 's more to be done . thank you . mr. paul manly: many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer , particularly sole proprietorships . i have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out . at the same time , we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services . will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in canada ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): i want to thank the hon . member for the question . small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country . that is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in covid-19 . whether it is a small business loan , a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance , or just lowering the cost by deferring gst or hst or customs duties , many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): mr. manly , you may have a very short question . mr. paul manly: thank you , madam chair . as we navigate this pandemic crisis , we are also in the middle of another major crisis : the climate emergency . will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning ? the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): the hon . minister has 15 seconds . hon. jonathan wilkinson (minister of environment and climate change): thank you for the question . the focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken . as we look forward , we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon . climate change is one of those , and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to ms. ashton . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): thank you , madam chair . my question is to the minister of indigenous services . first nations across northern manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep covid-19 out of their communities . many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions , but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place , such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals . we have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of covid-19 . what is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility ? why is n't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in berens river , a hospital in cross lake , a hospital in the island lake region ? if the government could n't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic , can it at least act in time for a potential second wave ? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): indeed , madam chair , one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we do n't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading covid-19 . a lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations . in the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of covid-19 , there are many measures that indigenous services canada and as a whole of government we will deploy , including surge capacity , increased ppe , and nurses and doctors . obviously , we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem , and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of covid-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures . ms. niki ashton: again , madam chair , to the minister of indigenous services , many of us across northern canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern saskatchewan , centred in la loche . the outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in fort mcmurray . these camps are making workers sick , and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities . these work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic . your government says it 's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe , yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns . will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now ? hon. marc miller: madam chair , the situation in la loche is a very pressing concern . members wo n't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing . we are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the mtis and dene communities in la loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect . this is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute , and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources , along with meadow lake and the northern inter-tribal health authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem . clearly , we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach ms. niki ashton: my question referred to la loche , but this is a broader issue . there are many work camps , including here in our north , that first nations are extremely concerned about . will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time ? hon. marc miller: one of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads , particularly the fear of clusters as communities , provinces , territories may choose to relax certain measures , is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it , particularly in northern and vulnerable communities . this is something for which we will need to have a serious approach , with both the minister of natural resources and also our provincial counterparts , to make sure that we are n't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we 're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading covid-19 . ms. niki ashton: madam chair , my question is for the minister of fisheries . hundreds of fishers and their families here in manitoba who work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation are desperately calling for emergency support . many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the ffmc to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing . when will your government announce support for inland fishers , including here in manitoba , and will you work to ensure that their product , healthy fish , can be provided here at home for people who need it ? hon. bernadette jordan: madam chair , we know that covid-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities , especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance . indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $ 306 million we 've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses . the funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions . we also announced earlier that the canadian northern economic development agency has made available $ 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses . we know that there 's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters . we 're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): i need to interrupt you . we 'll now hear from claudedebellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: thank you , madamchair . i do n't want to talk about tax cheats . i do n't want to talk about the $ 1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats . i want to ask the minister why she is n't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens , a legal but immoral practice in this day and age . can she explain why she is n't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance , which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , as soon as our government took office in 2015 , we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats . our government 's historic investments of almost $ 1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work . we 're already starting to see the results . as i was saying , i established an expert advisory committee to advise us . we 've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program . we 've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information . we 're auditing four countries a year . we 're working with the oecd . currently , over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ms.debellefeuille has the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , does the minister realize that she 's being filmed and recorded and that she is n't answering my question ? i do n't want to talk about cheats . i want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens . i can see that she does n't want to answer my question . i 'll ask her another question . can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens ? how much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism ? the government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-covid-19 . hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , i completely understand my colleague 's impatience . however , she must understand that this type of issue is very complex . under the former conservative government , the issue was n't a priority at all . regarding tax evasion abroad , our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the conservatives . over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): go ahead , madame debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , i 'm not impatient . however , i do n't understand the government 's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism , which is legal but completely immoral . our questions remain unanswered . my next question is for the minister of finance . the fdration de la relve agricole du qubec and the upa approached the minister of finance two weeks ago and still have n't received a response regarding the following issue . we know that many farms do n't pay wages . as a result , these farms are being penalized because they are n't eligible for the $ 40,000 in loans available through the canada emergency business account . to qualify for these loans , the farms needed a payroll of $ 20,000 to $ 1.5million in 2019. does the minister of finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $ 40,000 in loans ? hon. bill morneau: thank you , ms.debellefeuille . we know that the canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it . mr. damien kurek: on a point of order hon. bill morneau: that 's why we 're considering our approach . of course mr. damien kurek: i have a point of order . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ministermorneau , please wait a moment . a member is raising a point of order . mr. kurek , do you have a point of order ? you have to unmute yourself . mr. damien kurek: yes . it 's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): you 'll have to put yourself on english . rather , the minister has to put himself on french . hon. bill morneau: sorry . i was on the english channel . we know that the people who need the canada emergency response benefit must have access to it . that 's why we 're considering the challenges each time . if i receive a letter , i 'll look at it . once we have a response , we 'll pass it directly on to the member . the chair: the next question will go to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): this question is for the tourism minister . the tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis , yet despite the prime minister 's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed canadians who work in tourism , there 's still been nothing from this government . when will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted . i had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector , and clearly there 's a lot of anxiety . we also had the chance to work with all the g20 ministers of tourism all together , and we know we have to act the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. richards . mr. blake richards: i did n't really get much of an answer there . i hear a lot about talking and not much on action . tourism-based communities like the ones in banff and canmore , which i represent , are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85 % or higher . they also do n't qualify for a lot of the programs because they 're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from may to october , so they 're at risk of losing their entire season . i have a couple of very specific questions . will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help ? what does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic ? hon. mlanie joly: thank you . obviously , the tourism sector has access to many measures , including the ceba account , the $ 40,000 account . they also have access to the wage subsidy . they have access to rent relief . they will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies , and we 'll be coming up with the details soon . of course , in my colleague 's riding of banff , which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem , they will have access to the support through wd , western economic diversification . if there are particular cases you would like to raise with me , i would be more than happy to talk to you to see how , on the ground , we can help the tourism operators . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , clearly the tourism minister has n't been listening . she says she 's talking to the industry . she 's not hearing their concerns . what she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries . it does n't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they 'll have after the pandemic . let 's try another minister and see if we can get some answers . another industry that 's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry . it 's another industry the prime minister has promised to help , but there has n't been anything . clearly there 's a pattern here . the only so-called assistance there 's been to help hurting albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in . will the liberal government ever show any concern for albertans ? will they bring forward a plan to preserve canadian jobs ? will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of canadian oil before oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): in fact , mr. chair , the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry . we have the canada emergency wage subsidy , which covers 75 % of an employee 's wages for the employer . we have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $ 15 million to $ 60 million from the business development bank of canada . we continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of covid-19 on my province here in newfoundland and labrador and on alberta and saskatchewan . these three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time , a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with covid-19 . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , a lot of these things we 're hearing about are n't going to actually help the industry to recover . what we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed . maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of canadians back to work . will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects ? will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan: mr. chair , we have been working with our provincial partners . we have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry . we have been working with labour , concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers . we 're particularly proud of our orphan wells program , which was launched by the alberta government in conjunction with us . it was launched last week . i am pleased to inform this house that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected . the chair: that 's all the time we have for questions today . i want to thank all the members for taking part . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . thank you .

mr. paul-hus thought that the government should not take firearms away from law-abiding canadian citizens . he inquired into how the government would take guns from criminals . he also expressed concern about the quick release of dangerous criminals during the pandemic and china 's intransparency with regards to the pandemic .

did the prime minister agree with mr. pierre paul-hus when talking about introduction of petitions and prioritization of government matters ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call the meeting to order . welcome to the third meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . pursuant to the order of reference of monday , april20 , the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements , allowing members to present petitions , and questioning ministers of the crown , including the prime minister , in respect of the covid-19 pandemic . i understand there 's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the canadian armed forces who lost their lives last wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of greece . we 'll return to order . colleagues , we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the covid-19 pandemic . as we do , canadians , like everyone around the world , are doing their best to live their lives until things improve . meanwhile , as we look towards the future , i believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history . at this very moment , the dominion carillonneur , dr. andrea mccrady , is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the netherlands by the canadian forces . in may 1945 , canadian forces played a major role in liberating the dutch people from nazi occupation . may 5 is now a national holiday in the netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries . today 's meeting is taking place by video conference . the proceedings will be made available via the house of commons website . please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee . let me remind you that , as in the house or in committee , members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings . in order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings , i will outline a few rules . interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the house . at the bottom of your screen , you can choose floor , english or french . as you have seen , i change as i am speaking . i have now switched over to english in order to speak english . if you look at the bottom , you have a little flag that indicates whether it 's english or french , and that 's how we will be speaking . it makes it easier . that was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session . i understand that there are no statements by ministers . we can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions . in addition , to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented , the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee . i thank all the members for their usual co-operation . thank you all . now we 'll proceed to presenting petitions . our first petition comes from the honourable member for sherwood parkfort saskatchewan , mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today . the first petition is with respect to government bill c-7 . petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime . it includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person 's consent . the petitioners urge the house of commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia , and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people . this would require that bill to be amended or not passed . the second petition is with respect to senate public bill s-204 . this is on organ harvesting and trafficking . petitioners call on members of the house , and hopefully the senate as well , to support bill s-204 , which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent . it would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking . thank you very much . the chair: thank you . i want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us . if you do n't have one , please talk to your it ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible . the reason for them is not so much for what you hear , but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult . part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset , which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members . now we go to the member for beacheseast york , mr. erskine-smith . mr. nathaniel erskine-smith (beacheseast york, lib.): mr. chair , i had to learn how to tie my tie all over again . it 's been so long . i want to thank jenna robar , who 's led this petition e-2453 . the petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in canada and that 2019 , last year , was declared by the un to be the year of indigenous languages . they draw attention to article 13 of the undrip and to the trc 's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. fundamentally , they call upon the government of canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of canada and to have each language recognized nationally , with implementations on regional and provincial levels , acknowledging that many regions have different languages . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): mr. chair , i am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents , myles lynch of st. andrews west in my riding . myles made history as the first canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants . myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years , and he 's only 22 years old . myles created a documentary called 8 thousand myles , which had a few showings in my riding . it documented his journey across canada . one thing myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation . myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue . i mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them . i am proud to have this certified today , with 1,318 signatures , asking the standing committee on health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program . i give kudos to myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system . kudos to myles . i 'm proud to present this petition today . mr. peter julian (new westminsterburnaby, ndp): mr. chair , i 'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of toronto , mississauga and brampton , ontario , who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of canadians who have signed similar petitions . given that canadians are living through unprecedented , catastrophic climate events , and at the same time our society , as you know , is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of canadian families are only $ 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing , these petitioners are calling on the government of canada to support motion m-1 , a made-in-canada green new deal that i am presenting in front of the house of commons . it calls on canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency , and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , it 's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from courtenayalberni . they are concerned , obviously , about fentanyl-related deaths . over 12,000 canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources . they cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective ; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs ; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl . they are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources , with proper measures and bylaws , will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs . problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption . they are calling on the government of canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the emergencies act . they are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession , as has been done in portugal and other countries , and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally , recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source . mr. brad vis (missionmatsquifraser canyon, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of canadians in my riding with the government 's approach to firearms legislation and regulation . the petition highlights that the liberal government 's december 5 , 2019 , speech from the throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation ; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in canadian law ; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions ; that the experts , including chiefs of police , agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety ; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into canada from the united states ; and that the liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs , drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities . the petitioners in missionmatsquifraser canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners ; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed , rcmp-vetted canadians ; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement , on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs , on mental health and on providing the canada border services agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively . the chair: very good . that 's all for petitions today . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair . ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking . i want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly , not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters . we start the question period with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in canada and its impacts , the prime minister is deceiving canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners . why ? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): mr.chair , i feel that all canadians were affected by the massacre in nova scotia . once again , too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief . during the last election campaign , we promised to ban military-style assault weapons , and that is exactly what we have done . we will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control . it is a shame that , once more , the conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i understand the prime minister 's reply . however , i would like to know whether he considers that , with this order in council , organized crime , street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons . right hon. justin trudeau: this is indeed only a first step , but it is an important one . we are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities , to strengthen the control at our borders , and to implement other measures . i am pleased to hear the hon . member speak of those measures , because we are going to work together in the house to strengthen gun control . i hope that the conservative party will be part of that discussion in a positive way , in order to keep canadians safe . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i can simply say to the prime minister that the conservative party has always been committed to battling criminals , not law-abiding citizens . speaking of criminals , we know that , even before the pandemic , the prime minister had asked the parole board of canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly . now we are learning that , because of the pandemic , some releases are happening very quickly . the minister of public safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older , but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released . can the prime minister give us an explanation ? right hon. justin trudeau: the protection , the safety and the health of all canadians are important for the government . this is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected . we have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases , but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for canadians . we have managed to find the right balance . we must protect canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe . those two things go hand-in-hand . mr. pierre paul-hus: so is the prime minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience covid-19 within the walls ? right hon. justin trudeau: there are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have one minute left . mr. pierre paul-hus: thank you , mr.chair . the chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus . australia asked for an in-depth investigation , but has received threats from the communist regime . is canada going to stand by its allies in the five eyes and demand that the chinese government be completely transparent ? right hon. justin trudeau: we continue to stand in solidarity with our allies , including the five eyes , as they have stood in solidarity with canada in terms of the two canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in china . in the coming months and years , we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic , including questions that are important for china . at the same time , we are going to work hard to ensure that all canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic . the chair: we now move to mr.blanchet . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am sorry that i do not have my official headset . i was elsewhere , and i did not bring it with me . i hope that you can still hear me properly . for some days , discussions have been going on between people from the bloc qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in quebec and canada . the gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $ 25per week , or $ 110per month . by the way , i hate the term `` old age security . i prefer `` senior security . the discussion has been going on for some time and it 's a proposal that we made in the election campaign . we are asking for it to be done at this point , at least temporarily . parliament stopped sitting in the middle of march . we are now in may , and seniors still have nothing . they are impatient themselves , and we spend a good part of our days answering them . given that impatience , i realized i should not be the one answering them , it should be the prime minister . so here is my question for the prime minister : what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in quebec and canada in the very short term ? right hon. justin trudeau: clearly , seniors need support and significant services from us because of covid-19 . our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of covid-19 . then we announced different measures , including measures for seniors . the most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the gst , which will help them very quickly . we have also reduced by 25 % the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds . we have also channelled $ 9million through the united way , to help the most vulnerable seniors . absolutely , i recognize that more must be done . i am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians , including those in the bloc qubcois , to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term . in terms of the pandemic , they have concerns about their physical security , but also about their financial security . we will have more to say about this soon . mr. yves-franois blanchet: in the last few hours , the prime minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties , including the bloc qubcois , on a completely different matter . we are very open to that discussion , but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of quebec . the cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors , as it has for everyone else . it 's true for all seniors over 65years old , of course . the current old age pension represents less than half of the canada emergency student benefit . it represents less than one third of the basic canada emergency response benefit . seniors in my constituency , as in any other of the 338constituencies , are asking what we are doing . they are asking how there can be nothing for them . when will there be something for them ? i want to be able to give them an answer of some kind . what is the prime minister 's answer ? i will repeat it to them . right hon. justin trudeau: there will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors , particularly the most vulnerable seniors . we recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone . that is why we have to do better for our seniors . there are horror stories , whether about the chslds , or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country . far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief . there are seniors who are alone , seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again . we have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war . now we have to fight for them in their homes . that is exactly what we are going to do . the chair: we 'll go to the next question . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , every day i hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head . instead of making sure that canadians get the help they need , the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks . if the prime minister wo n't commit to a universal benefit , will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we knew , when this pandemic hit , that we needed to help canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast , particularly the most vulnerable . that is why we moved forward rapidly with the canada emergency response benefit , which has helped over seven million individual canadians and has made a huge difference . we had to move very quickly to get this money out to people , and that is exactly what we did . we also recognized that there would be a need to do more . that is why since that moment , we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well . we have more to do , but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government continues to leave people behind . i spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year . she recently found a job and a place to live . however , because she did n't make $ 5,000 last year , when the pandemic hit she did n't qualify for any benefits . she did n't qualify , but she is one of the people who need it the most . i 'm wondering why the prime minister does n't think she deserves our support . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift canadians out of poverty and will support them . over the past five years , we 've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country , and we 've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we 're doing . we will continue to . we 've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable . at the same time , we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million canadians who successfully receive the cerb . we recognize there 's more to do , and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need , but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help . if a company is cheating the public , using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share , it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits . other countries , like poland , denmark and france , have made this commitment , and if they can do it , so can we . the prime minister said one thing one day and another the next . will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens , it will not receive public funds ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the measures we 've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs , regardless of the companies they work for . it is a shame to hear the ndp , which used to be the party of workers , choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for . we have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers . that is not help for the companies . that is help for the workers , and that has been our focus all the way through : ordinary canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of covid-19 . that has been our priority , and that is what canadians need right now . of course , we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion . we spent a billion dollars to strengthen our ms. laurel collins : mr. chair , can i ask my last question ? right hon . justin trudeau : we will continue to do that . the chair: i 'm just going to pause the time for a moment . i want to remind honourable members that we 're trying to stay within committee rules , which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time . i just want to remind our members of that . i 'll go back to ms. collins . she has about 45 seconds left , and hopefully that 's about half and half for the question and the answer . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins: thanks so much , mr. chair . my last question is about housing and homelessness . my community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit , and now people who are living on the streets or in parks do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home . in victoria , the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people , at least for the short term , in local hotels . will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term , stable housing ? the chair: the right honourable prime minister , in 25 seconds or less , please . right hon. justin trudeau: yes , mr. chair , we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $ 40 billion toward housing . working with partners , we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country , but there is more to do . we are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments . we recognize that during this pandemic there 's even more to do for vulnerable canadians , and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens . mr. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): a point of order , mr.chair . the chair: order . mr.godin has a point of order . mr. jol godin: mr.chair , i can not hear the french interpretation . could we please check so that i can hear in french what the prime minister is saying ? the chair: okay . can we check that ? mr. jol godin: thank you . right hon. justin trudeau: i can try speaking english . i believe i was on the english tab , as is important . are you hearing the translation now ? the chair: that is exactly what the issue was . i just want to point that out to all the members . i 'm speaking english right now and i 'm on the english toggle at the bottom of the screen . it does create a bit of a disjoint when we 're speaking , but it 's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone . the next question will go to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): mr. chair , as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum , i want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash . i know that i speak for all parliamentarians when i extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones . mr. chair , i want to raise with the prime minister an issue that i 've raised several times before , and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program . there is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country . last year , they acquired another company . those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy , but because of rules that the government designed , together they do not . even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible , so far they 've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program . as a result , thousands of jobs are threatened . will the prime minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for brandt tractor all across the country ? right hon. justin trudeau: i thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding . as i told him when we spoke directly , finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding . we recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy , but i know that finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it , so that the workers in his community can get the support they need . hon. andrew scheer: the prime minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well , so we 're hoping for some good news . just flagging the time and date , it is well into may now and important decisions have to be made in very short order . there are other aspects of the government 's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks . the plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70 % of their revenue . as provinces start to open up , many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35 % or 45 % of regular revenues . they will not be able to access these programs and , in many cases , there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work . will the prime minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country , and that 's exactly what we did . we 're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country . i am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work . we are getting closer to that point , but we are not there yet . we are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis . as different provinces move forward towards reopening , as we look at different paths forward , i know that i will be able to count on all members in the house and , indeed , on canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way . that will be good to work on together once we get there . the chair: we have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , no one is disputing the need to move quickly . we are now in may , though , and these programs have been announced for weeks . canadians have been accessing them . the problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well , but we 're also going to see an additional challenge , where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit , who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours , are faced with a hard cap of $ 1,000 a month before they lose the cerb . conservatives are proposing a progressive system , a more flexible system , where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored . again , will the prime minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work ? the chair: i believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up , but i 'll give the right honourable prime minister about 30 seconds to answer that , please . right hon. justin trudeau: thank you , mr. chair . our priority was getting support for canadians right across the country with the cerb , with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students , for seniors , for farmers and for agricultural producers . that has been our priority , and that 's what we have worked on . i hear the concerns that the conservative party has around disincentives . we are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen , to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it . however , our overarching priority was allowing canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home , care for their loved ones , buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic . that 's exactly what we did . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu now . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): mr. chair , seniors in my riding are struggling . we 've heard the prime minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down , rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing . he 's been saying for weeks that in the coming days , something would be announced for seniors . the fact is that the liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security . which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors ? hon. deb schulte (minister of seniors): mr. chair , after a lifetime of hard work , of course canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security . covid-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors . they have a greater need for services and supports . happily , their pensions and their benefits are still flowing , unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs , but it 's still tough . we introduced measures ms. marilyn gladu : which day ? hon . deb schulte : at the beginning of april . people received a gst credit , a supplementary payment that was $ 400 on average for single seniors and $ 600 for couples . that was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: yes , mr. chair . i think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question . i would just ask the minister to keep to that . i would like to go to my second question . the chair: i want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible . ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: very good , mr. chair . my riding is on the border of canada and the u.s. we see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the u.s. and actually in the interpretation of different cbsa agents . while we have americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish , individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined . we have people who have purchased masts from canadian producers for their boats , and who want to come and pick them up , who are not being allowed to do that . people trying to sell plasma into the u.s. are being denied . when will they clarify the rules to the cbsa agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce , including individual commerce , is understood ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by cbsa to stop all non-essential travel . those measures have been very successful . we 've seen a 99 % reduction in international travel coming into canada . at the same time , we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach canada and we could put groceries on our shelves . we also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border . we have provided cbsa with clarification . their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent . i 've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases . when we receive those inquiries , we follow up immediately . i want to assure the member that we 'll continue to do that . the work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of canadians , and we will continue with that work . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses . we see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outei , cerb , the wage subsidy , etc . what is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , first , let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult . the intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge . we are looking at ways that we can ensure that the canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application . more than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans , representing over $ 20 billion . we are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process , recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact , and we will have more to say on that . the chair: the next question will go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , this is my first appearance , so i hope you can hear me okay . the chair: we can hear you fine . please proceed . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . it 's good to see everyone 's faces . on april 3 , the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters . since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in prince edward island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time , but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled , giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors . this double standard is severely unfair and atlantic harvesters are furious , as demonstrated during the protests on the canso causeway yesterday . when will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 , 24 and 26 ? hon. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): mr. chair , when making decisions with regard to when seasons open , a number of factors are taken into account . they are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season , what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season , as well socio-economic impacts on the area . we 're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions . we do not make them lightly . they are difficult decisions to make . in the decisions we 've made around the gulf , one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date . that is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of may . we 're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water . we 're looking forward to the product that they bring in . we 'll continue do everything we can to support the industry . mr. mel arnold: thank you , minister . i believe the time the chair: excuse me . no , the hon . minister had another 15 seconds coming to her . i 'd like to remind hon . members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking . i 'll do my best to try to keep it about level . maybe i 'll start muting if it 's necessary , but interrupting is not going to solve anything . mr. arnold , i 'll let you continue . you have three minutes and nine seconds left . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . west coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in british columbia , especially in coastal communities , and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government . last year , the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science . a year later , the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable , science-based solutions to conserve b.c . 's public fisheries . does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support canada 's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , the fishery is important in every coastal community . i recognize its value for our economy , as well as what it means to our coastal communities . that 's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we 're doing everything we possibly can to support them . during these extremely difficult times , we 're working on measures with the fishery in b.c. , as well as on the atlantic coast and eastern quebec , to make sure that we 're delivering for them and that all of the issues they 're having are being addressed . the chair: mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , canada 's seniors , especially those on basic incomes , are being hard hit by the covid-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services . seniors require adequate caregiver supports , physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security . why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? will the government support canada 's senior citizens ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds or less , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to assure my hon . colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time . we have provided a gst credit supplement of $ 400 for single seniors and $ 600 for couples , for low- and modest-income seniors . we have also ensured that the canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to covid-19 . we 've made them eligible . the chair: we 'll go back to mr. arnold . mr. arnold , you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . on april 23 , my colleagues and i called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in canada 's essential food supply chains . what has the government done to match students and other canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors , including those in the fish and seafood sector ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , we 're doing all we can to make sure , using our existing employment programs , that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer . we know that this is going to be really tough , especially in areas like agriculture , so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government , and a number of different initiatives including canada summer jobs , which i 'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days . the chair: now we 'll go on to the next question from ms. harder . ms. rempel , do you have a point of order ? hon. michelle rempel garner (calgary nose hill, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . with my colleague , mr. arnold , it 's the second time that i note you 've threatened to cut off a conservative microphone . i 'm just wondering , given that this is n't the house of commons and it 's structured as a committee , what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of parliament using a mute button . it seems a little dictatorial , and i was just wondering whether you could clarify that , based on the standing orders . the chair: i do n't think i threatened to use mute , but thank you for bringing that up . i am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal , so that there are no interruptions on either side . that 's how we 're going to continue . i did n't use the mute . i did it verbally and i think that 's a little more civil way of doing it . i hope you approve . i 'm not asking you to comment on that . we 'll go over to ms. harder . thank you . hon. michelle rempel garner: but , on the point of order , mr. chair , you actually , to me , last week , and to mr. arnold , did suggest that you were going to use the mute button . the chair: i believe that if we take everything out and go over it .... bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where i threatened , and we 'll go over it , but i do n't think this is the venue to do that . if you want to bring forward a point of order , i 'm all in favour of it . hon. michelle rempel garner: well , i am bringing forward a point of order . i 've asked you to clarify the chair: very good . we 'll look into it and get back to you . thank you . we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government 's initiative to put a gun ban in place . does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in nova scotia ? the chair: the honourable minister in 15 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: we have heard from health professionals , women 's rights organizations , victims groups and the police and our unions . they 're all very supportive of the government 's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people . ms. rachael harder: it 's interesting that the minister is misleading canadians in that comment because the canadian association of chiefs of police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort , that it actually will not protect canadians . so i 'd be curious . how many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the liberal government ? hon. bill blair: yes , let 's actually quote what the police have said . the ontario association of chiefs of police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles . the chief in toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety , and the canadian association of police chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles . ms. rachael harder: the answer to that question is zero . absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the liberals ' legislation that 's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms . can the prime minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes ? the chair: the honourable minister in 25 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: yes , to be very clear , the order in council actually is targeted at weapons , weapons that were designed for military use , and in their design and in their intent , to kill people , they 've actually been used in this country , at cole polytechnique ; in moncton ; at a quebec city mosque ; in fredericton ; at mayerthorpe and most recently in nova scotia . these are weapons that really have no place .... they are being used and have been used in canada and around the world to commit mass murder , and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: thank you . now i understand the prime minister has his food prepared for him at 24 sussex drive and then it 's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives . contrary to his privileged understanding , food actually originates with farmers . now , they 're in a crisis right now , which means that regular canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs . the canadian federation of agriculture requested $ 2.6 billion to help them out . today , the government announced one-tenth of this amount . why does n't the prime minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep canada fed ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , let me assure the hon . member that our government cares very , very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country . let me just say i am grateful to all the farmers , like my dad , who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding . we , as canadians , are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower , and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers . ms. rachael harder: i 'm confused as to why the prime minister did n't take my question , and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister does n't feel it 's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today . when we have farmers who produce for canadians on a daily basis and they 're asking some serious and some very important questions , and we do n't even have a minister who 's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation , that 's shameful . several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of covid-19 and , as a result , farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected . cattle producers in my region are spending more than $ 60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen . the amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket . it 's a crumb . when will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in canada ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just say that i feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me , the deputy prime minister , answer questions about agriculture . i am actually very proud to speak up for canada 's amazing farmers , for our country 's amazing ranchers , for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers . i feel so close to our farmers . i love them and our government supports them . today , we announced $ 252 million of support for our producers . they need it . they deserve it . we 're here for them . the chair: now we 'll go on to mr. bezan . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week . i 'm sure that all members of the house stand shoulder to shoulder with the families , with the crew of the hmcs fredericton and , indeed , with the entire canadian armed forces community during this time of grief . can the minister of national defence give us an update as to the cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of greece last week ? hon. harjit s. sajjan (minister of national defence): mr. chair , the deaths of the canadian armed forces members are felt by all , and especially the families . our condolences go out to them . our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them , and that 's exactly what we are doing . currently , the investigation is ongoing . our investigative team is currently on the ground . i actually spoke with the italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that 's required . the chair: i 'm afraid i 'm going to have to cut you off there , if we 're going by the rules that were pointed out by the house . mr. bezan . mr. james bezan: thank you , mr. chair . through you to minister sajjan again , i 'm going to change gears a bit . i know that back in early january , military intelligence through cf intelligence command was reporting , through the chain of command , the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in wuhan . on what date was he , as minister of national defence , given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in china ? hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , we have been following this crisis from day one . we work with our five eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort , right from the beginning . i can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information . obviously , i ca n't discuss the intelligence in this forum , but i can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information . mr. james bezan: minister sajjan , we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in national defence . it was reported in the media that in early january the hierarchy within the canadian armed forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak . i asked you , minister , when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence . hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , i get regular briefings on intelligence . yes , i was made aware of this in january . as with all our intelligence , we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies . one thing i can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet . mr. james bezan: what was that timeline ? from the time you were first told , minister sajjan , about the coronavirus outbreak in wuhan , what did you do with that intelligence ? when did you give it to the prime minister or to minister hajdu as the minister of health ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me say that our government 's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of canadian intelligence agencies throughout . we have been working on this from very early on . on january 2 , phac first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation . on january 14 , it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities . in january , the prime minister convened a meeting of the incident response group , and in january we increased screening at all major airports . all of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community , and of course our work with our five eyes , nato and norad allies . mr. james bezan: i want to come back the chair: we now move to mr.ste-marie . mr. james bezan: i still have 30 seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): can i go ahead , mr.chair ? the chair: yes , go ahead . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . in an interview with grald fillion , tax expert andr lareau , who specializes in tax havens , pointed out that $ 350billion canadian is parked in just 12tax havens . companies are using tax havens for financing , operations and intellectual property activities . mr.lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it . he said that it 's time for canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $ 250-billion deficit , and that if it does n't act now to change things , it never will . is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , as soon as we took office , in 2015 , our government made cracking down on tax evaders in canada and abroad a priority . that 's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort . i realize that my fellow member is impatient , but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue . under our leadership , in three years , the canada revenue agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the conservatives were in power . as we speak , the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion . i repeat , this is a top priority for our government . mr. gabriel ste-marie: you 're right , i am very impatient , because whenever i bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally , the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters . i am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies . since parliament began sitting virtually , it 's been mentioned a few times that denmark and poland have decided to deal with the issue . even france 's finance minister , bruno lemaire , said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance . we hear theprime minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers , so i 'd like to cite another examplebanks . the government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities , and yet , the five major banks in toronto , alone , are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens . this is unacceptable . this has nothing to do with wages for workers , and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets , cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after . is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , our government is taking unprecedented steps through the canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by covid-19 . this is largely a trust-based program , and we will not tolerate abuse . anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences . applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim . what 's more , any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount . anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225 % of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison . the canada revenue agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim . as i mentioned , cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government . the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds to ask your question , and about the same for the answer . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . that 's an excellent answer , but it has nothing to do with my question . the minister of finance has the power to fix the problem now . although completely immoral , the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the income tax regulations . through simple regulatory amendments , the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse . we are going to have a $ 250-billion deficit to pay off , and everyone is going to have to chip in , including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment , our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job , and we are starting to see results . i set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations . we tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program . we signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries . we audit four jurisdictions a year . we also work closely with the oecd . the chair: we now move on to another member . the next questioner is mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , i 'm sharing my time slot with the member for surreynewton . in the wake of covid-19 , so many canadians have been affected in so many ways . financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country . i 'm proud of how the government of canada has been beside canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported canadians when they needed it most . in bonavistaburintrinity and across our country , our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts . last week , my colleague , the minister of fisheries and oceans , announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing canada 's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process , store , package and distribute healthy , high-quality products on to the plates of canadians . the fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures . they are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices . they are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times . when can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters ' requests for assistance ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague from bonavistaburintrinity for keeping us well aware of what 's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors . we know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities , our coastal communities . it 's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that 's why we want to be there to support them . we 've already taken steps by making sure that the cerb is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers . as well , we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers ei are also able to qualify for it . we also have made an investment of $ 62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of covid-19 . we know there is more to do . we know that the harvesters need support . we are working with our partners across industry to make sure we 're hearing what their major concerns are . we know they are going to have some very challenging times this season . we will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days . the chair: the next questioner is mr. dhaliwal . mr. sukh dhaliwal (surreynewton, lib.): mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: we have a point of order . mr. kurek . mr. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): sorry , but there seems to be an issue with the audio . i 'm unable to hear the honourable member . the chair: it is very faint . mr. dhaliwal , can you check your audio to make sure everything 's working well ? mr. sukh dhaliwal: it was the chair: there we go . it 's fine now . i think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it was n't being picked up . there you go . very good . mr. sukh dhaliwal: mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers , transport companies to warehousing . with provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy , there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen . with so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions , and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum , how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work . one of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories . that 's why i was so pleased that last week the prime minister , together with all the first ministers of the country , was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart . this is so important because , as my colleague has pointed out , all of our business , our economic activity , happens across the country . it happens across provincial and territorial boundaries . i would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country . they belong to different parties , but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside . we have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus , and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen canada . thank you . the chair: the next question goes to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson (edmonton strathcona, ndp): thank you , mr. chair , for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing . i 'd like to start by asking about supports for workers . in alberta , meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all covid-19 cases . the government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with covid-19 . now , two workers are dead , at least six more are in intensive care and covid-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities . there are over 1,400 cases . yesterday , employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed . on march 27 , regarding the cerb , the minister of finance said that if workers do n't feel comfortable in their work , if they decide to stay home , they can apply for the benefit , yet the website says differently . will the minister guarantee that every canadian receiving cerb , ei or the cesb will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to covid-19 ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me thank the member , first of all , for her really very important question . i think all of us share the concern for canada 's essential workers who are keeping us safe , putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions . when it comes to the cargill plant , this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in . my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant . the decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities . to the question my colleague asked about workers , it is absolutely the case that no canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe , and it is also very much the case that any canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home . this is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: we will go on to ms. mcpherson for the next question . ms. heather mcpherson: i just want to be clear , because i 'm not a hundred per cent sure that i got an answer in that response , so i 'll try one more time . knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work , can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work , they will be able to access the cerb , or was the minister of finance incorrect when he spoke on march 27 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'm sorry , but i was struggling with my mute button . i apologize . let me just be very clear . no canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions . ms. heather mcpherson: but then could they access the cerb ? hon. chrystia freeland: in a time of coronavirus that is even more the case , and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair to avoid back and forth , just to try to keep some order in the meeting . ms. mcpherson , please continue . ms. heather mcpherson: i 'm sorry , chair . i have another question on the protection for workers . at the meat-packing plant , workers are calling for the plant to be shut down . in fact , we know that 85 % of workers are afraid for their safety . if the provincial government wo n't shut down the plant , will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the canadian food inspection agency ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , on the canadian food inspection agency , let me be very clear that my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has been in touch with provincial authorities . she has been in touch with the plant . the duties of the food inspection agency , of course , are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe . that is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on . we are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: we will go back to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson: mr. chair , this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in alberta . can the finance minister please let us know if cargill , a company that is owned by billionaires , with business in luxembourg , a known tax haven , has received any federal funding this year for covid-related support ? hon. diane lebouthillier: this is a tough time for canadians , and our government is doing everything it can to support them . more than 7million canadians have applied for the canada emergency response benefit , which the canada revenue agency and service canada administer . i want to say how proud i am of the work the agency is doing ; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time . ministerqualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims . the chair: we are moving on to the next question . we 'll continue now with mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my question today is for the prime minister . potato farmers in new brunswick and across canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry , but due to the pandemic , they now have no customers . it 's estimated that there is $ 300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage . what is the prime minister 's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i think all of us as canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country . we are aware that the coronavirus , by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries , has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes . the program announced today by the prime minister and my colleague , the minister of agriculture , will be very helpful for potato farmers , including with the surplus food program that starts with a $ 50 million fund , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. bragdon now . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , thank you . with an estimated $ 300 million worth of potatoes in storage , the announced funding from the government today simply does n't go far enough . in 2018 the new brunswick potato industry lost over $ 20 million . it is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $ 40 million . for many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018 , another major loss is totally unacceptable . how does the prime minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the honourable member spoke about farmers generally . the program today is $ 252 million , which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers , of course , have access to . on potato farmers , in particular , i agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern . i think all canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used , and that 's why the $ 50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic . the $ 16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants . does the government truly believe that the announced $ 125 million that is shared between beef , poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of canadians ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef , pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country . i am very pleased as a canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves , but also enough food to feed the world . that is why the $ 125 million specifically to support our beef , pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , the government 's announcement of $ 252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the canadian federation of agriculture 's request for immediate government relief for farmers . the president of the canadian federation of agriculture , mary robinson , put it today something like this : that if the farmhouse is on fire , the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water . this will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation . does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need ? when will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i do n't know about the honourable member , but where i come from , $ 252 million is not just crumbs . i know that canadian farmers do n't feel that $ 252 million is nothing , either . i would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today : the $ 77 million to support food processors , which will not only be important for the processors , but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them ; and the $ 250 million that we would like to add to the canadian dairy commission 's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars , which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question . go ahead , mrs. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): mr. chair , a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business , and they are on cerb . they were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified , and he is receiving $ 8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year . why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , any individual who has lost work for covid reasons is eligible for the cerb , regardless of their personal circumstances . if you made $ 5,000 in the past year and are a resident of canada , you qualify for the cerb . this is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of covid . mrs. cathay wagantall: clearly , high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time . the government 's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state , in all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence . why is the prime minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our cbsa officers first , giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border , the member opposite voted against it . i 'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it . let us be very clear . the evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used , and have been used , to kill innocent people . countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like new zealand , australia , the united kingdomhave all recognized that there 's no place for these weapons in a civil society . we promised canadians that we would act on that concern . there have been far too many people killed with these weapons , and even most recently , to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in nova scotia , the time to act is now , and we 've acted . mrs. cathay wagantall: last week the minister of agriculture said , step by step we are giving our farmers ... the tools they need to continue their ... work . on april 30 , the canadian federation of agriculture called on the minister to create a $ 2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in canada . this morning , the prime minister announced $ 252 million , hit-and-miss , across the agriculture sector . with all due respect , this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector . instead of being here to speak to this announcement , the minister has chosen to do a press conference . this certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability . if the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place , how does she see it is right to be providing $ 9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , first of all , let me say i do not , as has now been suggested by two members opposite , consider it in any way shameful that i should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector . our government strongly supports our farmers . i have to say i personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them . the $ 252 million of support is real and meaningful , and it is directed exactly where it is needed . it is directed at food processors , beef and pork producers and the dairy sector . as to the question about students , let me just point out that farm kids are students too , and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students . i know they , their parents and grandparents are very mrs. cathay wagantall: time is up . the chair: mr.lehoux , the next question goes to you . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . meat packing plants like quebec-based olymel are extremely worried that they wo n't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic . in the summer , these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation . however , the canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money . that 's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors . when is the government going to make these critical changes ? hon. carla qualtrough: i can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work . we know we need to support students with income support , but we also need to create jobs . we are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through canada summer jobs , through the the chair: there is a point of order . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , what the minister is saying is not being interpreted . the chair: we 'll just check to see how the technology is going . is everything okay now ? mrs. claude debellefeuille: yes , it 's working . the chair: let 's try that again , minister . hon. carla qualtrough: last week , as part of the measures announced around supporting our students , we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs , including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors . we know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need . this is exactly what we 're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy , and that 's what we 'll continue to do . we wo n't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times . mr. richard lehoux: i 'm not sure the minister understood my question about the canada emergency student benefit . i am very concerned about the agricultural sector , but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind . a number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer . this government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students . minister , what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , with all due respect , i believe we are helping students . we 've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis . that 's why we 're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work . we 're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer . we know they want to work and they want to serve . mr. richard lehoux: i hope that we 'll see some concrete results . pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country 's shutdown triggered by the pandemic . processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts . for the past five years , the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved . now more than ever , producers need these programs . however , the programs have n't been reviewed yet . when will the government make these changes , including the changes to agristability , and when can producers access them ? hon. chrystia freeland: we announced over $ 77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus . to help livestock and pork producers , we established agrirecovery , a national initiative that will provide $ 125million to help producers adapt to market changes . we 're launching the chair: mr.lehoux has the floor . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . i understand some of what the minister is saying . the measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector , since the sector had asked for about $ 2.6billion . i think that it 's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms , given the significant need for sovereignty . many canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear , as i was saying earlier . something must be done quickly , before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours . has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place ? hon. chrystia freeland: our country , canada , will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food . canada is a major beef , pork and grain producer . canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that . i want to mention another significant part of our announcement today , which is the $ 50million surplus food purchase program . this is very significant . i think that all canadians must support this initiative . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): we 'll now move on to the next question . mr.calkins , the member for reddeerlacombe , has the floor . mr. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): madam chair , how will the government 's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners ' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the united states ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , in response to that , i would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society , so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people . i would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border . we 'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police . we 'll bring forward new authorities , new offences , new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border . we 're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns . to deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally , there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences . mr. blaine calkins: the government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts . the recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy . a legal opinion that 's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres . that means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited . that is the same firearm that olympic trap shooters , olympic skeet shooters , duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis . why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , i 'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member . first of all , we have prohibited large-bore weapons , such as grenade launchers , but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun , i would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width , both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on friday . i 'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in canada when it comes to firearms legislation . if the entirety of the barrel length is considered , then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres . i would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners . there is no plan for a buyback program in this policy , and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms . given this , and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners are n't committing any gun violence , what was the government 's immediate benefit of making this announcement on may 1 ? hon. bill blair: thank you , and i 'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify . along with the prohibition that we have put in place , we have also , using the order in council , established an amnesty period , but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons . they can not be used , they ca n't be taken to the range for shooting , they ca n't be used for hunting , they ca n't be sold and they ca n't be transferred , so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use . we have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible , safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society . i look forward to the member 's support for those measures as we go forward . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , since january 1 , 2002 , any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until may 1 of this year . how many times was this most recent mass murderer here in canada checked against a criminal database since january 2002 ? hon. bill blair: as the member is probably aware , there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms , and it 's not appropriate to discuss that . however , i think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes . they were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers . in the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder , they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to canadians , and that 's why we have prohibited them . i 'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws , such as new zealand , australia and the united kingdom , have also implemented very similar bans . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to the hon . member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , madam chair . i 'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the hmcs fredericton who died , and in particular to the family of captain kevin hagen . he was originally a constituent from nanaimoladysmith . other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors , including in schools , on public transit and in stores . taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces . the taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing . they do not have a lockdown . taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by covid-19 , and today it is number 119. will canada follow taiwan 's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get canadians back to work ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): thank you very much , madam chair , and i thank the member for his question . there 's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting canadians ' health and safety , but as the member has mentioned , there are many other aspects to ensuring that canadians are safe no matter where they go . for example , it is of utmost importance that canadians practise social distancing . social distancing can provide the most protection , in fact , when you 're out in public or you 're in another place where there are other people . wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection , and certainly dr. tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option , canadians should consider wearing a mask . mr. paul manly: thank you . i 'd like to give a shout-out to martha and her team , who are doing a fundraiser for the spca by making masks for citizens in my riding . madam chair , many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan , including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income . will the government make the cerb a universal benefit to ensure that all canadians who need help get help ? if not , will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their rrsp without penalties so that they can pay their bills ? hon. deb schulte: thank you very much , and i really appreciate the question . we do recognize that oas and gis are very important parts of the retirement income of canadians , particularly lower-income seniors . we 've already introduced measures like the gst credit supplement to help seniors . the cerb is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of covid-19 . we 've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25 % , and we 've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable canadians , including seniors the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): we are going back to mr. manly . thank you . hon. deb schulte: i do recognize that there 's more to be done . thank you . mr. paul manly: many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer , particularly sole proprietorships . i have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out . at the same time , we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services . will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in canada ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): i want to thank the hon . member for the question . small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country . that is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in covid-19 . whether it is a small business loan , a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance , or just lowering the cost by deferring gst or hst or customs duties , many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): mr. manly , you may have a very short question . mr. paul manly: thank you , madam chair . as we navigate this pandemic crisis , we are also in the middle of another major crisis : the climate emergency . will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning ? the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): the hon . minister has 15 seconds . hon. jonathan wilkinson (minister of environment and climate change): thank you for the question . the focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken . as we look forward , we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon . climate change is one of those , and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to ms. ashton . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): thank you , madam chair . my question is to the minister of indigenous services . first nations across northern manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep covid-19 out of their communities . many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions , but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place , such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals . we have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of covid-19 . what is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility ? why is n't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in berens river , a hospital in cross lake , a hospital in the island lake region ? if the government could n't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic , can it at least act in time for a potential second wave ? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): indeed , madam chair , one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we do n't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading covid-19 . a lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations . in the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of covid-19 , there are many measures that indigenous services canada and as a whole of government we will deploy , including surge capacity , increased ppe , and nurses and doctors . obviously , we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem , and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of covid-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures . ms. niki ashton: again , madam chair , to the minister of indigenous services , many of us across northern canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern saskatchewan , centred in la loche . the outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in fort mcmurray . these camps are making workers sick , and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities . these work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic . your government says it 's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe , yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns . will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now ? hon. marc miller: madam chair , the situation in la loche is a very pressing concern . members wo n't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing . we are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the mtis and dene communities in la loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect . this is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute , and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources , along with meadow lake and the northern inter-tribal health authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem . clearly , we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach ms. niki ashton: my question referred to la loche , but this is a broader issue . there are many work camps , including here in our north , that first nations are extremely concerned about . will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time ? hon. marc miller: one of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads , particularly the fear of clusters as communities , provinces , territories may choose to relax certain measures , is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it , particularly in northern and vulnerable communities . this is something for which we will need to have a serious approach , with both the minister of natural resources and also our provincial counterparts , to make sure that we are n't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we 're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading covid-19 . ms. niki ashton: madam chair , my question is for the minister of fisheries . hundreds of fishers and their families here in manitoba who work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation are desperately calling for emergency support . many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the ffmc to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing . when will your government announce support for inland fishers , including here in manitoba , and will you work to ensure that their product , healthy fish , can be provided here at home for people who need it ? hon. bernadette jordan: madam chair , we know that covid-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities , especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance . indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $ 306 million we 've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses . the funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions . we also announced earlier that the canadian northern economic development agency has made available $ 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses . we know that there 's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters . we 're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): i need to interrupt you . we 'll now hear from claudedebellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: thank you , madamchair . i do n't want to talk about tax cheats . i do n't want to talk about the $ 1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats . i want to ask the minister why she is n't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens , a legal but immoral practice in this day and age . can she explain why she is n't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance , which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , as soon as our government took office in 2015 , we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats . our government 's historic investments of almost $ 1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work . we 're already starting to see the results . as i was saying , i established an expert advisory committee to advise us . we 've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program . we 've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information . we 're auditing four countries a year . we 're working with the oecd . currently , over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ms.debellefeuille has the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , does the minister realize that she 's being filmed and recorded and that she is n't answering my question ? i do n't want to talk about cheats . i want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens . i can see that she does n't want to answer my question . i 'll ask her another question . can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens ? how much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism ? the government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-covid-19 . hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , i completely understand my colleague 's impatience . however , she must understand that this type of issue is very complex . under the former conservative government , the issue was n't a priority at all . regarding tax evasion abroad , our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the conservatives . over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): go ahead , madame debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , i 'm not impatient . however , i do n't understand the government 's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism , which is legal but completely immoral . our questions remain unanswered . my next question is for the minister of finance . the fdration de la relve agricole du qubec and the upa approached the minister of finance two weeks ago and still have n't received a response regarding the following issue . we know that many farms do n't pay wages . as a result , these farms are being penalized because they are n't eligible for the $ 40,000 in loans available through the canada emergency business account . to qualify for these loans , the farms needed a payroll of $ 20,000 to $ 1.5million in 2019. does the minister of finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $ 40,000 in loans ? hon. bill morneau: thank you , ms.debellefeuille . we know that the canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it . mr. damien kurek: on a point of order hon. bill morneau: that 's why we 're considering our approach . of course mr. damien kurek: i have a point of order . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ministermorneau , please wait a moment . a member is raising a point of order . mr. kurek , do you have a point of order ? you have to unmute yourself . mr. damien kurek: yes . it 's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): you 'll have to put yourself on english . rather , the minister has to put himself on french . hon. bill morneau: sorry . i was on the english channel . we know that the people who need the canada emergency response benefit must have access to it . that 's why we 're considering the challenges each time . if i receive a letter , i 'll look at it . once we have a response , we 'll pass it directly on to the member . the chair: the next question will go to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): this question is for the tourism minister . the tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis , yet despite the prime minister 's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed canadians who work in tourism , there 's still been nothing from this government . when will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted . i had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector , and clearly there 's a lot of anxiety . we also had the chance to work with all the g20 ministers of tourism all together , and we know we have to act the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. richards . mr. blake richards: i did n't really get much of an answer there . i hear a lot about talking and not much on action . tourism-based communities like the ones in banff and canmore , which i represent , are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85 % or higher . they also do n't qualify for a lot of the programs because they 're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from may to october , so they 're at risk of losing their entire season . i have a couple of very specific questions . will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help ? what does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic ? hon. mlanie joly: thank you . obviously , the tourism sector has access to many measures , including the ceba account , the $ 40,000 account . they also have access to the wage subsidy . they have access to rent relief . they will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies , and we 'll be coming up with the details soon . of course , in my colleague 's riding of banff , which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem , they will have access to the support through wd , western economic diversification . if there are particular cases you would like to raise with me , i would be more than happy to talk to you to see how , on the ground , we can help the tourism operators . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , clearly the tourism minister has n't been listening . she says she 's talking to the industry . she 's not hearing their concerns . what she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries . it does n't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they 'll have after the pandemic . let 's try another minister and see if we can get some answers . another industry that 's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry . it 's another industry the prime minister has promised to help , but there has n't been anything . clearly there 's a pattern here . the only so-called assistance there 's been to help hurting albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in . will the liberal government ever show any concern for albertans ? will they bring forward a plan to preserve canadian jobs ? will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of canadian oil before oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): in fact , mr. chair , the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry . we have the canada emergency wage subsidy , which covers 75 % of an employee 's wages for the employer . we have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $ 15 million to $ 60 million from the business development bank of canada . we continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of covid-19 on my province here in newfoundland and labrador and on alberta and saskatchewan . these three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time , a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with covid-19 . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , a lot of these things we 're hearing about are n't going to actually help the industry to recover . what we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed . maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of canadians back to work . will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects ? will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan: mr. chair , we have been working with our provincial partners . we have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry . we have been working with labour , concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers . we 're particularly proud of our orphan wells program , which was launched by the alberta government in conjunction with us . it was launched last week . i am pleased to inform this house that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected . the chair: that 's all the time we have for questions today . i want to thank all the members for taking part . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . thank you .

the prime minister disagreed with mr. paul-hus . he expressed that he had a mandate from the last election campaign to ban military-style assault weapons , and expressed disappointment about conservatives ' not wanting to do the same . he also claimed that speedy releases of inmates were governed by strict rules and were important to ensure that correctional services were protected from the virus .

summarize the discussion about restoring canadian businesses during the pandemic . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call the meeting to order . welcome to the third meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . pursuant to the order of reference of monday , april20 , the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements , allowing members to present petitions , and questioning ministers of the crown , including the prime minister , in respect of the covid-19 pandemic . i understand there 's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the canadian armed forces who lost their lives last wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of greece . we 'll return to order . colleagues , we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the covid-19 pandemic . as we do , canadians , like everyone around the world , are doing their best to live their lives until things improve . meanwhile , as we look towards the future , i believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history . at this very moment , the dominion carillonneur , dr. andrea mccrady , is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the netherlands by the canadian forces . in may 1945 , canadian forces played a major role in liberating the dutch people from nazi occupation . may 5 is now a national holiday in the netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries . today 's meeting is taking place by video conference . the proceedings will be made available via the house of commons website . please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee . let me remind you that , as in the house or in committee , members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings . in order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings , i will outline a few rules . interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the house . at the bottom of your screen , you can choose floor , english or french . as you have seen , i change as i am speaking . i have now switched over to english in order to speak english . if you look at the bottom , you have a little flag that indicates whether it 's english or french , and that 's how we will be speaking . it makes it easier . that was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session . i understand that there are no statements by ministers . we can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions . in addition , to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented , the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee . i thank all the members for their usual co-operation . thank you all . now we 'll proceed to presenting petitions . our first petition comes from the honourable member for sherwood parkfort saskatchewan , mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today . the first petition is with respect to government bill c-7 . petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime . it includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person 's consent . the petitioners urge the house of commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia , and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people . this would require that bill to be amended or not passed . the second petition is with respect to senate public bill s-204 . this is on organ harvesting and trafficking . petitioners call on members of the house , and hopefully the senate as well , to support bill s-204 , which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent . it would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking . thank you very much . the chair: thank you . i want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us . if you do n't have one , please talk to your it ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible . the reason for them is not so much for what you hear , but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult . part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset , which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members . now we go to the member for beacheseast york , mr. erskine-smith . mr. nathaniel erskine-smith (beacheseast york, lib.): mr. chair , i had to learn how to tie my tie all over again . it 's been so long . i want to thank jenna robar , who 's led this petition e-2453 . the petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in canada and that 2019 , last year , was declared by the un to be the year of indigenous languages . they draw attention to article 13 of the undrip and to the trc 's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. fundamentally , they call upon the government of canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of canada and to have each language recognized nationally , with implementations on regional and provincial levels , acknowledging that many regions have different languages . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): mr. chair , i am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents , myles lynch of st. andrews west in my riding . myles made history as the first canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants . myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years , and he 's only 22 years old . myles created a documentary called 8 thousand myles , which had a few showings in my riding . it documented his journey across canada . one thing myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation . myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue . i mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them . i am proud to have this certified today , with 1,318 signatures , asking the standing committee on health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program . i give kudos to myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system . kudos to myles . i 'm proud to present this petition today . mr. peter julian (new westminsterburnaby, ndp): mr. chair , i 'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of toronto , mississauga and brampton , ontario , who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of canadians who have signed similar petitions . given that canadians are living through unprecedented , catastrophic climate events , and at the same time our society , as you know , is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of canadian families are only $ 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing , these petitioners are calling on the government of canada to support motion m-1 , a made-in-canada green new deal that i am presenting in front of the house of commons . it calls on canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency , and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , it 's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from courtenayalberni . they are concerned , obviously , about fentanyl-related deaths . over 12,000 canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources . they cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective ; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs ; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl . they are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources , with proper measures and bylaws , will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs . problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption . they are calling on the government of canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the emergencies act . they are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession , as has been done in portugal and other countries , and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally , recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source . mr. brad vis (missionmatsquifraser canyon, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of canadians in my riding with the government 's approach to firearms legislation and regulation . the petition highlights that the liberal government 's december 5 , 2019 , speech from the throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation ; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in canadian law ; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions ; that the experts , including chiefs of police , agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety ; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into canada from the united states ; and that the liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs , drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities . the petitioners in missionmatsquifraser canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners ; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed , rcmp-vetted canadians ; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement , on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs , on mental health and on providing the canada border services agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively . the chair: very good . that 's all for petitions today . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair . ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking . i want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly , not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters . we start the question period with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in canada and its impacts , the prime minister is deceiving canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners . why ? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): mr.chair , i feel that all canadians were affected by the massacre in nova scotia . once again , too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief . during the last election campaign , we promised to ban military-style assault weapons , and that is exactly what we have done . we will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control . it is a shame that , once more , the conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i understand the prime minister 's reply . however , i would like to know whether he considers that , with this order in council , organized crime , street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons . right hon. justin trudeau: this is indeed only a first step , but it is an important one . we are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities , to strengthen the control at our borders , and to implement other measures . i am pleased to hear the hon . member speak of those measures , because we are going to work together in the house to strengthen gun control . i hope that the conservative party will be part of that discussion in a positive way , in order to keep canadians safe . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i can simply say to the prime minister that the conservative party has always been committed to battling criminals , not law-abiding citizens . speaking of criminals , we know that , even before the pandemic , the prime minister had asked the parole board of canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly . now we are learning that , because of the pandemic , some releases are happening very quickly . the minister of public safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older , but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released . can the prime minister give us an explanation ? right hon. justin trudeau: the protection , the safety and the health of all canadians are important for the government . this is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected . we have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases , but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for canadians . we have managed to find the right balance . we must protect canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe . those two things go hand-in-hand . mr. pierre paul-hus: so is the prime minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience covid-19 within the walls ? right hon. justin trudeau: there are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have one minute left . mr. pierre paul-hus: thank you , mr.chair . the chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus . australia asked for an in-depth investigation , but has received threats from the communist regime . is canada going to stand by its allies in the five eyes and demand that the chinese government be completely transparent ? right hon. justin trudeau: we continue to stand in solidarity with our allies , including the five eyes , as they have stood in solidarity with canada in terms of the two canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in china . in the coming months and years , we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic , including questions that are important for china . at the same time , we are going to work hard to ensure that all canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic . the chair: we now move to mr.blanchet . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am sorry that i do not have my official headset . i was elsewhere , and i did not bring it with me . i hope that you can still hear me properly . for some days , discussions have been going on between people from the bloc qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in quebec and canada . the gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $ 25per week , or $ 110per month . by the way , i hate the term `` old age security . i prefer `` senior security . the discussion has been going on for some time and it 's a proposal that we made in the election campaign . we are asking for it to be done at this point , at least temporarily . parliament stopped sitting in the middle of march . we are now in may , and seniors still have nothing . they are impatient themselves , and we spend a good part of our days answering them . given that impatience , i realized i should not be the one answering them , it should be the prime minister . so here is my question for the prime minister : what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in quebec and canada in the very short term ? right hon. justin trudeau: clearly , seniors need support and significant services from us because of covid-19 . our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of covid-19 . then we announced different measures , including measures for seniors . the most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the gst , which will help them very quickly . we have also reduced by 25 % the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds . we have also channelled $ 9million through the united way , to help the most vulnerable seniors . absolutely , i recognize that more must be done . i am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians , including those in the bloc qubcois , to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term . in terms of the pandemic , they have concerns about their physical security , but also about their financial security . we will have more to say about this soon . mr. yves-franois blanchet: in the last few hours , the prime minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties , including the bloc qubcois , on a completely different matter . we are very open to that discussion , but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of quebec . the cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors , as it has for everyone else . it 's true for all seniors over 65years old , of course . the current old age pension represents less than half of the canada emergency student benefit . it represents less than one third of the basic canada emergency response benefit . seniors in my constituency , as in any other of the 338constituencies , are asking what we are doing . they are asking how there can be nothing for them . when will there be something for them ? i want to be able to give them an answer of some kind . what is the prime minister 's answer ? i will repeat it to them . right hon. justin trudeau: there will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors , particularly the most vulnerable seniors . we recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone . that is why we have to do better for our seniors . there are horror stories , whether about the chslds , or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country . far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief . there are seniors who are alone , seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again . we have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war . now we have to fight for them in their homes . that is exactly what we are going to do . the chair: we 'll go to the next question . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , every day i hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head . instead of making sure that canadians get the help they need , the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks . if the prime minister wo n't commit to a universal benefit , will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we knew , when this pandemic hit , that we needed to help canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast , particularly the most vulnerable . that is why we moved forward rapidly with the canada emergency response benefit , which has helped over seven million individual canadians and has made a huge difference . we had to move very quickly to get this money out to people , and that is exactly what we did . we also recognized that there would be a need to do more . that is why since that moment , we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well . we have more to do , but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government continues to leave people behind . i spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year . she recently found a job and a place to live . however , because she did n't make $ 5,000 last year , when the pandemic hit she did n't qualify for any benefits . she did n't qualify , but she is one of the people who need it the most . i 'm wondering why the prime minister does n't think she deserves our support . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift canadians out of poverty and will support them . over the past five years , we 've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country , and we 've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we 're doing . we will continue to . we 've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable . at the same time , we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million canadians who successfully receive the cerb . we recognize there 's more to do , and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need , but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help . if a company is cheating the public , using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share , it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits . other countries , like poland , denmark and france , have made this commitment , and if they can do it , so can we . the prime minister said one thing one day and another the next . will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens , it will not receive public funds ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the measures we 've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs , regardless of the companies they work for . it is a shame to hear the ndp , which used to be the party of workers , choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for . we have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers . that is not help for the companies . that is help for the workers , and that has been our focus all the way through : ordinary canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of covid-19 . that has been our priority , and that is what canadians need right now . of course , we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion . we spent a billion dollars to strengthen our ms. laurel collins : mr. chair , can i ask my last question ? right hon . justin trudeau : we will continue to do that . the chair: i 'm just going to pause the time for a moment . i want to remind honourable members that we 're trying to stay within committee rules , which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time . i just want to remind our members of that . i 'll go back to ms. collins . she has about 45 seconds left , and hopefully that 's about half and half for the question and the answer . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins: thanks so much , mr. chair . my last question is about housing and homelessness . my community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit , and now people who are living on the streets or in parks do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home . in victoria , the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people , at least for the short term , in local hotels . will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term , stable housing ? the chair: the right honourable prime minister , in 25 seconds or less , please . right hon. justin trudeau: yes , mr. chair , we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $ 40 billion toward housing . working with partners , we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country , but there is more to do . we are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments . we recognize that during this pandemic there 's even more to do for vulnerable canadians , and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens . mr. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): a point of order , mr.chair . the chair: order . mr.godin has a point of order . mr. jol godin: mr.chair , i can not hear the french interpretation . could we please check so that i can hear in french what the prime minister is saying ? the chair: okay . can we check that ? mr. jol godin: thank you . right hon. justin trudeau: i can try speaking english . i believe i was on the english tab , as is important . are you hearing the translation now ? the chair: that is exactly what the issue was . i just want to point that out to all the members . i 'm speaking english right now and i 'm on the english toggle at the bottom of the screen . it does create a bit of a disjoint when we 're speaking , but it 's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone . the next question will go to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): mr. chair , as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum , i want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash . i know that i speak for all parliamentarians when i extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones . mr. chair , i want to raise with the prime minister an issue that i 've raised several times before , and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program . there is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country . last year , they acquired another company . those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy , but because of rules that the government designed , together they do not . even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible , so far they 've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program . as a result , thousands of jobs are threatened . will the prime minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for brandt tractor all across the country ? right hon. justin trudeau: i thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding . as i told him when we spoke directly , finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding . we recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy , but i know that finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it , so that the workers in his community can get the support they need . hon. andrew scheer: the prime minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well , so we 're hoping for some good news . just flagging the time and date , it is well into may now and important decisions have to be made in very short order . there are other aspects of the government 's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks . the plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70 % of their revenue . as provinces start to open up , many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35 % or 45 % of regular revenues . they will not be able to access these programs and , in many cases , there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work . will the prime minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country , and that 's exactly what we did . we 're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country . i am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work . we are getting closer to that point , but we are not there yet . we are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis . as different provinces move forward towards reopening , as we look at different paths forward , i know that i will be able to count on all members in the house and , indeed , on canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way . that will be good to work on together once we get there . the chair: we have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , no one is disputing the need to move quickly . we are now in may , though , and these programs have been announced for weeks . canadians have been accessing them . the problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well , but we 're also going to see an additional challenge , where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit , who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours , are faced with a hard cap of $ 1,000 a month before they lose the cerb . conservatives are proposing a progressive system , a more flexible system , where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored . again , will the prime minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work ? the chair: i believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up , but i 'll give the right honourable prime minister about 30 seconds to answer that , please . right hon. justin trudeau: thank you , mr. chair . our priority was getting support for canadians right across the country with the cerb , with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students , for seniors , for farmers and for agricultural producers . that has been our priority , and that 's what we have worked on . i hear the concerns that the conservative party has around disincentives . we are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen , to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it . however , our overarching priority was allowing canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home , care for their loved ones , buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic . that 's exactly what we did . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu now . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): mr. chair , seniors in my riding are struggling . we 've heard the prime minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down , rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing . he 's been saying for weeks that in the coming days , something would be announced for seniors . the fact is that the liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security . which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors ? hon. deb schulte (minister of seniors): mr. chair , after a lifetime of hard work , of course canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security . covid-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors . they have a greater need for services and supports . happily , their pensions and their benefits are still flowing , unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs , but it 's still tough . we introduced measures ms. marilyn gladu : which day ? hon . deb schulte : at the beginning of april . people received a gst credit , a supplementary payment that was $ 400 on average for single seniors and $ 600 for couples . that was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: yes , mr. chair . i think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question . i would just ask the minister to keep to that . i would like to go to my second question . the chair: i want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible . ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: very good , mr. chair . my riding is on the border of canada and the u.s. we see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the u.s. and actually in the interpretation of different cbsa agents . while we have americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish , individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined . we have people who have purchased masts from canadian producers for their boats , and who want to come and pick them up , who are not being allowed to do that . people trying to sell plasma into the u.s. are being denied . when will they clarify the rules to the cbsa agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce , including individual commerce , is understood ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by cbsa to stop all non-essential travel . those measures have been very successful . we 've seen a 99 % reduction in international travel coming into canada . at the same time , we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach canada and we could put groceries on our shelves . we also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border . we have provided cbsa with clarification . their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent . i 've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases . when we receive those inquiries , we follow up immediately . i want to assure the member that we 'll continue to do that . the work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of canadians , and we will continue with that work . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses . we see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outei , cerb , the wage subsidy , etc . what is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , first , let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult . the intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge . we are looking at ways that we can ensure that the canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application . more than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans , representing over $ 20 billion . we are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process , recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact , and we will have more to say on that . the chair: the next question will go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , this is my first appearance , so i hope you can hear me okay . the chair: we can hear you fine . please proceed . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . it 's good to see everyone 's faces . on april 3 , the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters . since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in prince edward island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time , but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled , giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors . this double standard is severely unfair and atlantic harvesters are furious , as demonstrated during the protests on the canso causeway yesterday . when will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 , 24 and 26 ? hon. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): mr. chair , when making decisions with regard to when seasons open , a number of factors are taken into account . they are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season , what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season , as well socio-economic impacts on the area . we 're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions . we do not make them lightly . they are difficult decisions to make . in the decisions we 've made around the gulf , one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date . that is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of may . we 're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water . we 're looking forward to the product that they bring in . we 'll continue do everything we can to support the industry . mr. mel arnold: thank you , minister . i believe the time the chair: excuse me . no , the hon . minister had another 15 seconds coming to her . i 'd like to remind hon . members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking . i 'll do my best to try to keep it about level . maybe i 'll start muting if it 's necessary , but interrupting is not going to solve anything . mr. arnold , i 'll let you continue . you have three minutes and nine seconds left . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . west coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in british columbia , especially in coastal communities , and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government . last year , the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science . a year later , the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable , science-based solutions to conserve b.c . 's public fisheries . does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support canada 's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , the fishery is important in every coastal community . i recognize its value for our economy , as well as what it means to our coastal communities . that 's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we 're doing everything we possibly can to support them . during these extremely difficult times , we 're working on measures with the fishery in b.c. , as well as on the atlantic coast and eastern quebec , to make sure that we 're delivering for them and that all of the issues they 're having are being addressed . the chair: mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , canada 's seniors , especially those on basic incomes , are being hard hit by the covid-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services . seniors require adequate caregiver supports , physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security . why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? will the government support canada 's senior citizens ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds or less , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to assure my hon . colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time . we have provided a gst credit supplement of $ 400 for single seniors and $ 600 for couples , for low- and modest-income seniors . we have also ensured that the canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to covid-19 . we 've made them eligible . the chair: we 'll go back to mr. arnold . mr. arnold , you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . on april 23 , my colleagues and i called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in canada 's essential food supply chains . what has the government done to match students and other canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors , including those in the fish and seafood sector ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , we 're doing all we can to make sure , using our existing employment programs , that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer . we know that this is going to be really tough , especially in areas like agriculture , so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government , and a number of different initiatives including canada summer jobs , which i 'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days . the chair: now we 'll go on to the next question from ms. harder . ms. rempel , do you have a point of order ? hon. michelle rempel garner (calgary nose hill, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . with my colleague , mr. arnold , it 's the second time that i note you 've threatened to cut off a conservative microphone . i 'm just wondering , given that this is n't the house of commons and it 's structured as a committee , what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of parliament using a mute button . it seems a little dictatorial , and i was just wondering whether you could clarify that , based on the standing orders . the chair: i do n't think i threatened to use mute , but thank you for bringing that up . i am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal , so that there are no interruptions on either side . that 's how we 're going to continue . i did n't use the mute . i did it verbally and i think that 's a little more civil way of doing it . i hope you approve . i 'm not asking you to comment on that . we 'll go over to ms. harder . thank you . hon. michelle rempel garner: but , on the point of order , mr. chair , you actually , to me , last week , and to mr. arnold , did suggest that you were going to use the mute button . the chair: i believe that if we take everything out and go over it .... bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where i threatened , and we 'll go over it , but i do n't think this is the venue to do that . if you want to bring forward a point of order , i 'm all in favour of it . hon. michelle rempel garner: well , i am bringing forward a point of order . i 've asked you to clarify the chair: very good . we 'll look into it and get back to you . thank you . we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government 's initiative to put a gun ban in place . does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in nova scotia ? the chair: the honourable minister in 15 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: we have heard from health professionals , women 's rights organizations , victims groups and the police and our unions . they 're all very supportive of the government 's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people . ms. rachael harder: it 's interesting that the minister is misleading canadians in that comment because the canadian association of chiefs of police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort , that it actually will not protect canadians . so i 'd be curious . how many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the liberal government ? hon. bill blair: yes , let 's actually quote what the police have said . the ontario association of chiefs of police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles . the chief in toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety , and the canadian association of police chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles . ms. rachael harder: the answer to that question is zero . absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the liberals ' legislation that 's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms . can the prime minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes ? the chair: the honourable minister in 25 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: yes , to be very clear , the order in council actually is targeted at weapons , weapons that were designed for military use , and in their design and in their intent , to kill people , they 've actually been used in this country , at cole polytechnique ; in moncton ; at a quebec city mosque ; in fredericton ; at mayerthorpe and most recently in nova scotia . these are weapons that really have no place .... they are being used and have been used in canada and around the world to commit mass murder , and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: thank you . now i understand the prime minister has his food prepared for him at 24 sussex drive and then it 's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives . contrary to his privileged understanding , food actually originates with farmers . now , they 're in a crisis right now , which means that regular canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs . the canadian federation of agriculture requested $ 2.6 billion to help them out . today , the government announced one-tenth of this amount . why does n't the prime minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep canada fed ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , let me assure the hon . member that our government cares very , very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country . let me just say i am grateful to all the farmers , like my dad , who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding . we , as canadians , are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower , and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers . ms. rachael harder: i 'm confused as to why the prime minister did n't take my question , and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister does n't feel it 's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today . when we have farmers who produce for canadians on a daily basis and they 're asking some serious and some very important questions , and we do n't even have a minister who 's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation , that 's shameful . several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of covid-19 and , as a result , farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected . cattle producers in my region are spending more than $ 60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen . the amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket . it 's a crumb . when will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in canada ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just say that i feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me , the deputy prime minister , answer questions about agriculture . i am actually very proud to speak up for canada 's amazing farmers , for our country 's amazing ranchers , for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers . i feel so close to our farmers . i love them and our government supports them . today , we announced $ 252 million of support for our producers . they need it . they deserve it . we 're here for them . the chair: now we 'll go on to mr. bezan . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week . i 'm sure that all members of the house stand shoulder to shoulder with the families , with the crew of the hmcs fredericton and , indeed , with the entire canadian armed forces community during this time of grief . can the minister of national defence give us an update as to the cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of greece last week ? hon. harjit s. sajjan (minister of national defence): mr. chair , the deaths of the canadian armed forces members are felt by all , and especially the families . our condolences go out to them . our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them , and that 's exactly what we are doing . currently , the investigation is ongoing . our investigative team is currently on the ground . i actually spoke with the italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that 's required . the chair: i 'm afraid i 'm going to have to cut you off there , if we 're going by the rules that were pointed out by the house . mr. bezan . mr. james bezan: thank you , mr. chair . through you to minister sajjan again , i 'm going to change gears a bit . i know that back in early january , military intelligence through cf intelligence command was reporting , through the chain of command , the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in wuhan . on what date was he , as minister of national defence , given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in china ? hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , we have been following this crisis from day one . we work with our five eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort , right from the beginning . i can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information . obviously , i ca n't discuss the intelligence in this forum , but i can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information . mr. james bezan: minister sajjan , we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in national defence . it was reported in the media that in early january the hierarchy within the canadian armed forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak . i asked you , minister , when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence . hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , i get regular briefings on intelligence . yes , i was made aware of this in january . as with all our intelligence , we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies . one thing i can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet . mr. james bezan: what was that timeline ? from the time you were first told , minister sajjan , about the coronavirus outbreak in wuhan , what did you do with that intelligence ? when did you give it to the prime minister or to minister hajdu as the minister of health ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me say that our government 's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of canadian intelligence agencies throughout . we have been working on this from very early on . on january 2 , phac first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation . on january 14 , it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities . in january , the prime minister convened a meeting of the incident response group , and in january we increased screening at all major airports . all of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community , and of course our work with our five eyes , nato and norad allies . mr. james bezan: i want to come back the chair: we now move to mr.ste-marie . mr. james bezan: i still have 30 seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): can i go ahead , mr.chair ? the chair: yes , go ahead . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . in an interview with grald fillion , tax expert andr lareau , who specializes in tax havens , pointed out that $ 350billion canadian is parked in just 12tax havens . companies are using tax havens for financing , operations and intellectual property activities . mr.lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it . he said that it 's time for canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $ 250-billion deficit , and that if it does n't act now to change things , it never will . is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , as soon as we took office , in 2015 , our government made cracking down on tax evaders in canada and abroad a priority . that 's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort . i realize that my fellow member is impatient , but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue . under our leadership , in three years , the canada revenue agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the conservatives were in power . as we speak , the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion . i repeat , this is a top priority for our government . mr. gabriel ste-marie: you 're right , i am very impatient , because whenever i bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally , the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters . i am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies . since parliament began sitting virtually , it 's been mentioned a few times that denmark and poland have decided to deal with the issue . even france 's finance minister , bruno lemaire , said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance . we hear theprime minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers , so i 'd like to cite another examplebanks . the government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities , and yet , the five major banks in toronto , alone , are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens . this is unacceptable . this has nothing to do with wages for workers , and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets , cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after . is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , our government is taking unprecedented steps through the canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by covid-19 . this is largely a trust-based program , and we will not tolerate abuse . anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences . applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim . what 's more , any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount . anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225 % of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison . the canada revenue agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim . as i mentioned , cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government . the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds to ask your question , and about the same for the answer . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . that 's an excellent answer , but it has nothing to do with my question . the minister of finance has the power to fix the problem now . although completely immoral , the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the income tax regulations . through simple regulatory amendments , the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse . we are going to have a $ 250-billion deficit to pay off , and everyone is going to have to chip in , including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment , our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job , and we are starting to see results . i set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations . we tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program . we signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries . we audit four jurisdictions a year . we also work closely with the oecd . the chair: we now move on to another member . the next questioner is mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , i 'm sharing my time slot with the member for surreynewton . in the wake of covid-19 , so many canadians have been affected in so many ways . financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country . i 'm proud of how the government of canada has been beside canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported canadians when they needed it most . in bonavistaburintrinity and across our country , our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts . last week , my colleague , the minister of fisheries and oceans , announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing canada 's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process , store , package and distribute healthy , high-quality products on to the plates of canadians . the fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures . they are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices . they are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times . when can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters ' requests for assistance ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague from bonavistaburintrinity for keeping us well aware of what 's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors . we know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities , our coastal communities . it 's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that 's why we want to be there to support them . we 've already taken steps by making sure that the cerb is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers . as well , we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers ei are also able to qualify for it . we also have made an investment of $ 62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of covid-19 . we know there is more to do . we know that the harvesters need support . we are working with our partners across industry to make sure we 're hearing what their major concerns are . we know they are going to have some very challenging times this season . we will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days . the chair: the next questioner is mr. dhaliwal . mr. sukh dhaliwal (surreynewton, lib.): mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: we have a point of order . mr. kurek . mr. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): sorry , but there seems to be an issue with the audio . i 'm unable to hear the honourable member . the chair: it is very faint . mr. dhaliwal , can you check your audio to make sure everything 's working well ? mr. sukh dhaliwal: it was the chair: there we go . it 's fine now . i think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it was n't being picked up . there you go . very good . mr. sukh dhaliwal: mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers , transport companies to warehousing . with provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy , there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen . with so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions , and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum , how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work . one of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories . that 's why i was so pleased that last week the prime minister , together with all the first ministers of the country , was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart . this is so important because , as my colleague has pointed out , all of our business , our economic activity , happens across the country . it happens across provincial and territorial boundaries . i would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country . they belong to different parties , but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside . we have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus , and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen canada . thank you . the chair: the next question goes to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson (edmonton strathcona, ndp): thank you , mr. chair , for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing . i 'd like to start by asking about supports for workers . in alberta , meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all covid-19 cases . the government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with covid-19 . now , two workers are dead , at least six more are in intensive care and covid-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities . there are over 1,400 cases . yesterday , employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed . on march 27 , regarding the cerb , the minister of finance said that if workers do n't feel comfortable in their work , if they decide to stay home , they can apply for the benefit , yet the website says differently . will the minister guarantee that every canadian receiving cerb , ei or the cesb will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to covid-19 ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me thank the member , first of all , for her really very important question . i think all of us share the concern for canada 's essential workers who are keeping us safe , putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions . when it comes to the cargill plant , this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in . my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant . the decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities . to the question my colleague asked about workers , it is absolutely the case that no canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe , and it is also very much the case that any canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home . this is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: we will go on to ms. mcpherson for the next question . ms. heather mcpherson: i just want to be clear , because i 'm not a hundred per cent sure that i got an answer in that response , so i 'll try one more time . knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work , can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work , they will be able to access the cerb , or was the minister of finance incorrect when he spoke on march 27 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'm sorry , but i was struggling with my mute button . i apologize . let me just be very clear . no canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions . ms. heather mcpherson: but then could they access the cerb ? hon. chrystia freeland: in a time of coronavirus that is even more the case , and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair to avoid back and forth , just to try to keep some order in the meeting . ms. mcpherson , please continue . ms. heather mcpherson: i 'm sorry , chair . i have another question on the protection for workers . at the meat-packing plant , workers are calling for the plant to be shut down . in fact , we know that 85 % of workers are afraid for their safety . if the provincial government wo n't shut down the plant , will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the canadian food inspection agency ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , on the canadian food inspection agency , let me be very clear that my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has been in touch with provincial authorities . she has been in touch with the plant . the duties of the food inspection agency , of course , are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe . that is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on . we are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: we will go back to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson: mr. chair , this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in alberta . can the finance minister please let us know if cargill , a company that is owned by billionaires , with business in luxembourg , a known tax haven , has received any federal funding this year for covid-related support ? hon. diane lebouthillier: this is a tough time for canadians , and our government is doing everything it can to support them . more than 7million canadians have applied for the canada emergency response benefit , which the canada revenue agency and service canada administer . i want to say how proud i am of the work the agency is doing ; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time . ministerqualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims . the chair: we are moving on to the next question . we 'll continue now with mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my question today is for the prime minister . potato farmers in new brunswick and across canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry , but due to the pandemic , they now have no customers . it 's estimated that there is $ 300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage . what is the prime minister 's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i think all of us as canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country . we are aware that the coronavirus , by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries , has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes . the program announced today by the prime minister and my colleague , the minister of agriculture , will be very helpful for potato farmers , including with the surplus food program that starts with a $ 50 million fund , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. bragdon now . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , thank you . with an estimated $ 300 million worth of potatoes in storage , the announced funding from the government today simply does n't go far enough . in 2018 the new brunswick potato industry lost over $ 20 million . it is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $ 40 million . for many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018 , another major loss is totally unacceptable . how does the prime minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the honourable member spoke about farmers generally . the program today is $ 252 million , which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers , of course , have access to . on potato farmers , in particular , i agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern . i think all canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used , and that 's why the $ 50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic . the $ 16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants . does the government truly believe that the announced $ 125 million that is shared between beef , poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of canadians ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef , pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country . i am very pleased as a canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves , but also enough food to feed the world . that is why the $ 125 million specifically to support our beef , pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , the government 's announcement of $ 252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the canadian federation of agriculture 's request for immediate government relief for farmers . the president of the canadian federation of agriculture , mary robinson , put it today something like this : that if the farmhouse is on fire , the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water . this will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation . does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need ? when will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i do n't know about the honourable member , but where i come from , $ 252 million is not just crumbs . i know that canadian farmers do n't feel that $ 252 million is nothing , either . i would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today : the $ 77 million to support food processors , which will not only be important for the processors , but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them ; and the $ 250 million that we would like to add to the canadian dairy commission 's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars , which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question . go ahead , mrs. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): mr. chair , a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business , and they are on cerb . they were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified , and he is receiving $ 8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year . why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , any individual who has lost work for covid reasons is eligible for the cerb , regardless of their personal circumstances . if you made $ 5,000 in the past year and are a resident of canada , you qualify for the cerb . this is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of covid . mrs. cathay wagantall: clearly , high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time . the government 's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state , in all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence . why is the prime minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our cbsa officers first , giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border , the member opposite voted against it . i 'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it . let us be very clear . the evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used , and have been used , to kill innocent people . countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like new zealand , australia , the united kingdomhave all recognized that there 's no place for these weapons in a civil society . we promised canadians that we would act on that concern . there have been far too many people killed with these weapons , and even most recently , to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in nova scotia , the time to act is now , and we 've acted . mrs. cathay wagantall: last week the minister of agriculture said , step by step we are giving our farmers ... the tools they need to continue their ... work . on april 30 , the canadian federation of agriculture called on the minister to create a $ 2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in canada . this morning , the prime minister announced $ 252 million , hit-and-miss , across the agriculture sector . with all due respect , this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector . instead of being here to speak to this announcement , the minister has chosen to do a press conference . this certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability . if the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place , how does she see it is right to be providing $ 9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , first of all , let me say i do not , as has now been suggested by two members opposite , consider it in any way shameful that i should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector . our government strongly supports our farmers . i have to say i personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them . the $ 252 million of support is real and meaningful , and it is directed exactly where it is needed . it is directed at food processors , beef and pork producers and the dairy sector . as to the question about students , let me just point out that farm kids are students too , and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students . i know they , their parents and grandparents are very mrs. cathay wagantall: time is up . the chair: mr.lehoux , the next question goes to you . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . meat packing plants like quebec-based olymel are extremely worried that they wo n't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic . in the summer , these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation . however , the canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money . that 's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors . when is the government going to make these critical changes ? hon. carla qualtrough: i can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work . we know we need to support students with income support , but we also need to create jobs . we are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through canada summer jobs , through the the chair: there is a point of order . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , what the minister is saying is not being interpreted . the chair: we 'll just check to see how the technology is going . is everything okay now ? mrs. claude debellefeuille: yes , it 's working . the chair: let 's try that again , minister . hon. carla qualtrough: last week , as part of the measures announced around supporting our students , we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs , including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors . we know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need . this is exactly what we 're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy , and that 's what we 'll continue to do . we wo n't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times . mr. richard lehoux: i 'm not sure the minister understood my question about the canada emergency student benefit . i am very concerned about the agricultural sector , but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind . a number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer . this government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students . minister , what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , with all due respect , i believe we are helping students . we 've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis . that 's why we 're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work . we 're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer . we know they want to work and they want to serve . mr. richard lehoux: i hope that we 'll see some concrete results . pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country 's shutdown triggered by the pandemic . processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts . for the past five years , the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved . now more than ever , producers need these programs . however , the programs have n't been reviewed yet . when will the government make these changes , including the changes to agristability , and when can producers access them ? hon. chrystia freeland: we announced over $ 77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus . to help livestock and pork producers , we established agrirecovery , a national initiative that will provide $ 125million to help producers adapt to market changes . we 're launching the chair: mr.lehoux has the floor . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . i understand some of what the minister is saying . the measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector , since the sector had asked for about $ 2.6billion . i think that it 's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms , given the significant need for sovereignty . many canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear , as i was saying earlier . something must be done quickly , before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours . has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place ? hon. chrystia freeland: our country , canada , will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food . canada is a major beef , pork and grain producer . canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that . i want to mention another significant part of our announcement today , which is the $ 50million surplus food purchase program . this is very significant . i think that all canadians must support this initiative . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): we 'll now move on to the next question . mr.calkins , the member for reddeerlacombe , has the floor . mr. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): madam chair , how will the government 's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners ' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the united states ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , in response to that , i would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society , so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people . i would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border . we 'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police . we 'll bring forward new authorities , new offences , new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border . we 're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns . to deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally , there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences . mr. blaine calkins: the government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts . the recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy . a legal opinion that 's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres . that means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited . that is the same firearm that olympic trap shooters , olympic skeet shooters , duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis . why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , i 'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member . first of all , we have prohibited large-bore weapons , such as grenade launchers , but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun , i would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width , both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on friday . i 'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in canada when it comes to firearms legislation . if the entirety of the barrel length is considered , then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres . i would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners . there is no plan for a buyback program in this policy , and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms . given this , and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners are n't committing any gun violence , what was the government 's immediate benefit of making this announcement on may 1 ? hon. bill blair: thank you , and i 'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify . along with the prohibition that we have put in place , we have also , using the order in council , established an amnesty period , but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons . they can not be used , they ca n't be taken to the range for shooting , they ca n't be used for hunting , they ca n't be sold and they ca n't be transferred , so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use . we have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible , safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society . i look forward to the member 's support for those measures as we go forward . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , since january 1 , 2002 , any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until may 1 of this year . how many times was this most recent mass murderer here in canada checked against a criminal database since january 2002 ? hon. bill blair: as the member is probably aware , there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms , and it 's not appropriate to discuss that . however , i think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes . they were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers . in the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder , they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to canadians , and that 's why we have prohibited them . i 'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws , such as new zealand , australia and the united kingdom , have also implemented very similar bans . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to the hon . member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , madam chair . i 'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the hmcs fredericton who died , and in particular to the family of captain kevin hagen . he was originally a constituent from nanaimoladysmith . other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors , including in schools , on public transit and in stores . taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces . the taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing . they do not have a lockdown . taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by covid-19 , and today it is number 119. will canada follow taiwan 's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get canadians back to work ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): thank you very much , madam chair , and i thank the member for his question . there 's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting canadians ' health and safety , but as the member has mentioned , there are many other aspects to ensuring that canadians are safe no matter where they go . for example , it is of utmost importance that canadians practise social distancing . social distancing can provide the most protection , in fact , when you 're out in public or you 're in another place where there are other people . wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection , and certainly dr. tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option , canadians should consider wearing a mask . mr. paul manly: thank you . i 'd like to give a shout-out to martha and her team , who are doing a fundraiser for the spca by making masks for citizens in my riding . madam chair , many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan , including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income . will the government make the cerb a universal benefit to ensure that all canadians who need help get help ? if not , will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their rrsp without penalties so that they can pay their bills ? hon. deb schulte: thank you very much , and i really appreciate the question . we do recognize that oas and gis are very important parts of the retirement income of canadians , particularly lower-income seniors . we 've already introduced measures like the gst credit supplement to help seniors . the cerb is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of covid-19 . we 've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25 % , and we 've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable canadians , including seniors the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): we are going back to mr. manly . thank you . hon. deb schulte: i do recognize that there 's more to be done . thank you . mr. paul manly: many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer , particularly sole proprietorships . i have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out . at the same time , we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services . will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in canada ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): i want to thank the hon . member for the question . small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country . that is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in covid-19 . whether it is a small business loan , a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance , or just lowering the cost by deferring gst or hst or customs duties , many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): mr. manly , you may have a very short question . mr. paul manly: thank you , madam chair . as we navigate this pandemic crisis , we are also in the middle of another major crisis : the climate emergency . will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning ? the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): the hon . minister has 15 seconds . hon. jonathan wilkinson (minister of environment and climate change): thank you for the question . the focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken . as we look forward , we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon . climate change is one of those , and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to ms. ashton . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): thank you , madam chair . my question is to the minister of indigenous services . first nations across northern manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep covid-19 out of their communities . many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions , but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place , such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals . we have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of covid-19 . what is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility ? why is n't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in berens river , a hospital in cross lake , a hospital in the island lake region ? if the government could n't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic , can it at least act in time for a potential second wave ? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): indeed , madam chair , one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we do n't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading covid-19 . a lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations . in the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of covid-19 , there are many measures that indigenous services canada and as a whole of government we will deploy , including surge capacity , increased ppe , and nurses and doctors . obviously , we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem , and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of covid-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures . ms. niki ashton: again , madam chair , to the minister of indigenous services , many of us across northern canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern saskatchewan , centred in la loche . the outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in fort mcmurray . these camps are making workers sick , and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities . these work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic . your government says it 's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe , yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns . will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now ? hon. marc miller: madam chair , the situation in la loche is a very pressing concern . members wo n't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing . we are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the mtis and dene communities in la loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect . this is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute , and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources , along with meadow lake and the northern inter-tribal health authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem . clearly , we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach ms. niki ashton: my question referred to la loche , but this is a broader issue . there are many work camps , including here in our north , that first nations are extremely concerned about . will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time ? hon. marc miller: one of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads , particularly the fear of clusters as communities , provinces , territories may choose to relax certain measures , is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it , particularly in northern and vulnerable communities . this is something for which we will need to have a serious approach , with both the minister of natural resources and also our provincial counterparts , to make sure that we are n't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we 're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading covid-19 . ms. niki ashton: madam chair , my question is for the minister of fisheries . hundreds of fishers and their families here in manitoba who work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation are desperately calling for emergency support . many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the ffmc to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing . when will your government announce support for inland fishers , including here in manitoba , and will you work to ensure that their product , healthy fish , can be provided here at home for people who need it ? hon. bernadette jordan: madam chair , we know that covid-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities , especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance . indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $ 306 million we 've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses . the funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions . we also announced earlier that the canadian northern economic development agency has made available $ 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses . we know that there 's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters . we 're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): i need to interrupt you . we 'll now hear from claudedebellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: thank you , madamchair . i do n't want to talk about tax cheats . i do n't want to talk about the $ 1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats . i want to ask the minister why she is n't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens , a legal but immoral practice in this day and age . can she explain why she is n't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance , which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , as soon as our government took office in 2015 , we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats . our government 's historic investments of almost $ 1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work . we 're already starting to see the results . as i was saying , i established an expert advisory committee to advise us . we 've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program . we 've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information . we 're auditing four countries a year . we 're working with the oecd . currently , over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ms.debellefeuille has the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , does the minister realize that she 's being filmed and recorded and that she is n't answering my question ? i do n't want to talk about cheats . i want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens . i can see that she does n't want to answer my question . i 'll ask her another question . can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens ? how much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism ? the government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-covid-19 . hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , i completely understand my colleague 's impatience . however , she must understand that this type of issue is very complex . under the former conservative government , the issue was n't a priority at all . regarding tax evasion abroad , our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the conservatives . over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): go ahead , madame debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , i 'm not impatient . however , i do n't understand the government 's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism , which is legal but completely immoral . our questions remain unanswered . my next question is for the minister of finance . the fdration de la relve agricole du qubec and the upa approached the minister of finance two weeks ago and still have n't received a response regarding the following issue . we know that many farms do n't pay wages . as a result , these farms are being penalized because they are n't eligible for the $ 40,000 in loans available through the canada emergency business account . to qualify for these loans , the farms needed a payroll of $ 20,000 to $ 1.5million in 2019. does the minister of finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $ 40,000 in loans ? hon. bill morneau: thank you , ms.debellefeuille . we know that the canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it . mr. damien kurek: on a point of order hon. bill morneau: that 's why we 're considering our approach . of course mr. damien kurek: i have a point of order . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ministermorneau , please wait a moment . a member is raising a point of order . mr. kurek , do you have a point of order ? you have to unmute yourself . mr. damien kurek: yes . it 's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): you 'll have to put yourself on english . rather , the minister has to put himself on french . hon. bill morneau: sorry . i was on the english channel . we know that the people who need the canada emergency response benefit must have access to it . that 's why we 're considering the challenges each time . if i receive a letter , i 'll look at it . once we have a response , we 'll pass it directly on to the member . the chair: the next question will go to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): this question is for the tourism minister . the tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis , yet despite the prime minister 's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed canadians who work in tourism , there 's still been nothing from this government . when will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted . i had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector , and clearly there 's a lot of anxiety . we also had the chance to work with all the g20 ministers of tourism all together , and we know we have to act the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. richards . mr. blake richards: i did n't really get much of an answer there . i hear a lot about talking and not much on action . tourism-based communities like the ones in banff and canmore , which i represent , are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85 % or higher . they also do n't qualify for a lot of the programs because they 're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from may to october , so they 're at risk of losing their entire season . i have a couple of very specific questions . will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help ? what does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic ? hon. mlanie joly: thank you . obviously , the tourism sector has access to many measures , including the ceba account , the $ 40,000 account . they also have access to the wage subsidy . they have access to rent relief . they will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies , and we 'll be coming up with the details soon . of course , in my colleague 's riding of banff , which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem , they will have access to the support through wd , western economic diversification . if there are particular cases you would like to raise with me , i would be more than happy to talk to you to see how , on the ground , we can help the tourism operators . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , clearly the tourism minister has n't been listening . she says she 's talking to the industry . she 's not hearing their concerns . what she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries . it does n't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they 'll have after the pandemic . let 's try another minister and see if we can get some answers . another industry that 's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry . it 's another industry the prime minister has promised to help , but there has n't been anything . clearly there 's a pattern here . the only so-called assistance there 's been to help hurting albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in . will the liberal government ever show any concern for albertans ? will they bring forward a plan to preserve canadian jobs ? will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of canadian oil before oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): in fact , mr. chair , the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry . we have the canada emergency wage subsidy , which covers 75 % of an employee 's wages for the employer . we have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $ 15 million to $ 60 million from the business development bank of canada . we continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of covid-19 on my province here in newfoundland and labrador and on alberta and saskatchewan . these three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time , a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with covid-19 . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , a lot of these things we 're hearing about are n't going to actually help the industry to recover . what we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed . maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of canadians back to work . will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects ? will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan: mr. chair , we have been working with our provincial partners . we have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry . we have been working with labour , concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers . we 're particularly proud of our orphan wells program , which was launched by the alberta government in conjunction with us . it was launched last week . i am pleased to inform this house that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected . the chair: that 's all the time we have for questions today . i want to thank all the members for taking part . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . thank you .

members expressed concern that pandemic related restrictions were harming businesses and that the government was not reopening businesses and providing stimulus in an effective fashion . emphasis was placed on reopening fishing , restoring agricultural supply chains , and supporting farmers . many members inquired as to why the government had only furnished $ 252 million of the promised $ 2.6 billion fund to maintain food security in canada .

what did heather mcpherson think about restoring canadian businesses during the pandemic ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call the meeting to order . welcome to the third meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . pursuant to the order of reference of monday , april20 , the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements , allowing members to present petitions , and questioning ministers of the crown , including the prime minister , in respect of the covid-19 pandemic . i understand there 's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the canadian armed forces who lost their lives last wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of greece . we 'll return to order . colleagues , we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the covid-19 pandemic . as we do , canadians , like everyone around the world , are doing their best to live their lives until things improve . meanwhile , as we look towards the future , i believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history . at this very moment , the dominion carillonneur , dr. andrea mccrady , is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the netherlands by the canadian forces . in may 1945 , canadian forces played a major role in liberating the dutch people from nazi occupation . may 5 is now a national holiday in the netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries . today 's meeting is taking place by video conference . the proceedings will be made available via the house of commons website . please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee . let me remind you that , as in the house or in committee , members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings . in order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings , i will outline a few rules . interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the house . at the bottom of your screen , you can choose floor , english or french . as you have seen , i change as i am speaking . i have now switched over to english in order to speak english . if you look at the bottom , you have a little flag that indicates whether it 's english or french , and that 's how we will be speaking . it makes it easier . that was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session . i understand that there are no statements by ministers . we can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions . in addition , to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented , the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee . i thank all the members for their usual co-operation . thank you all . now we 'll proceed to presenting petitions . our first petition comes from the honourable member for sherwood parkfort saskatchewan , mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today . the first petition is with respect to government bill c-7 . petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime . it includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person 's consent . the petitioners urge the house of commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia , and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people . this would require that bill to be amended or not passed . the second petition is with respect to senate public bill s-204 . this is on organ harvesting and trafficking . petitioners call on members of the house , and hopefully the senate as well , to support bill s-204 , which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent . it would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking . thank you very much . the chair: thank you . i want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us . if you do n't have one , please talk to your it ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible . the reason for them is not so much for what you hear , but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult . part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset , which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members . now we go to the member for beacheseast york , mr. erskine-smith . mr. nathaniel erskine-smith (beacheseast york, lib.): mr. chair , i had to learn how to tie my tie all over again . it 's been so long . i want to thank jenna robar , who 's led this petition e-2453 . the petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in canada and that 2019 , last year , was declared by the un to be the year of indigenous languages . they draw attention to article 13 of the undrip and to the trc 's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. fundamentally , they call upon the government of canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of canada and to have each language recognized nationally , with implementations on regional and provincial levels , acknowledging that many regions have different languages . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): mr. chair , i am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents , myles lynch of st. andrews west in my riding . myles made history as the first canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants . myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years , and he 's only 22 years old . myles created a documentary called 8 thousand myles , which had a few showings in my riding . it documented his journey across canada . one thing myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation . myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue . i mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them . i am proud to have this certified today , with 1,318 signatures , asking the standing committee on health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program . i give kudos to myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system . kudos to myles . i 'm proud to present this petition today . mr. peter julian (new westminsterburnaby, ndp): mr. chair , i 'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of toronto , mississauga and brampton , ontario , who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of canadians who have signed similar petitions . given that canadians are living through unprecedented , catastrophic climate events , and at the same time our society , as you know , is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of canadian families are only $ 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing , these petitioners are calling on the government of canada to support motion m-1 , a made-in-canada green new deal that i am presenting in front of the house of commons . it calls on canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency , and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , it 's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from courtenayalberni . they are concerned , obviously , about fentanyl-related deaths . over 12,000 canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources . they cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective ; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs ; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl . they are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources , with proper measures and bylaws , will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs . problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption . they are calling on the government of canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the emergencies act . they are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession , as has been done in portugal and other countries , and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally , recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source . mr. brad vis (missionmatsquifraser canyon, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of canadians in my riding with the government 's approach to firearms legislation and regulation . the petition highlights that the liberal government 's december 5 , 2019 , speech from the throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation ; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in canadian law ; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions ; that the experts , including chiefs of police , agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety ; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into canada from the united states ; and that the liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs , drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities . the petitioners in missionmatsquifraser canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners ; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed , rcmp-vetted canadians ; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement , on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs , on mental health and on providing the canada border services agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively . the chair: very good . that 's all for petitions today . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair . ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking . i want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly , not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters . we start the question period with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in canada and its impacts , the prime minister is deceiving canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners . why ? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): mr.chair , i feel that all canadians were affected by the massacre in nova scotia . once again , too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief . during the last election campaign , we promised to ban military-style assault weapons , and that is exactly what we have done . we will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control . it is a shame that , once more , the conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i understand the prime minister 's reply . however , i would like to know whether he considers that , with this order in council , organized crime , street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons . right hon. justin trudeau: this is indeed only a first step , but it is an important one . we are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities , to strengthen the control at our borders , and to implement other measures . i am pleased to hear the hon . member speak of those measures , because we are going to work together in the house to strengthen gun control . i hope that the conservative party will be part of that discussion in a positive way , in order to keep canadians safe . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i can simply say to the prime minister that the conservative party has always been committed to battling criminals , not law-abiding citizens . speaking of criminals , we know that , even before the pandemic , the prime minister had asked the parole board of canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly . now we are learning that , because of the pandemic , some releases are happening very quickly . the minister of public safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older , but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released . can the prime minister give us an explanation ? right hon. justin trudeau: the protection , the safety and the health of all canadians are important for the government . this is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected . we have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases , but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for canadians . we have managed to find the right balance . we must protect canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe . those two things go hand-in-hand . mr. pierre paul-hus: so is the prime minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience covid-19 within the walls ? right hon. justin trudeau: there are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have one minute left . mr. pierre paul-hus: thank you , mr.chair . the chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus . australia asked for an in-depth investigation , but has received threats from the communist regime . is canada going to stand by its allies in the five eyes and demand that the chinese government be completely transparent ? right hon. justin trudeau: we continue to stand in solidarity with our allies , including the five eyes , as they have stood in solidarity with canada in terms of the two canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in china . in the coming months and years , we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic , including questions that are important for china . at the same time , we are going to work hard to ensure that all canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic . the chair: we now move to mr.blanchet . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am sorry that i do not have my official headset . i was elsewhere , and i did not bring it with me . i hope that you can still hear me properly . for some days , discussions have been going on between people from the bloc qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in quebec and canada . the gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $ 25per week , or $ 110per month . by the way , i hate the term `` old age security . i prefer `` senior security . the discussion has been going on for some time and it 's a proposal that we made in the election campaign . we are asking for it to be done at this point , at least temporarily . parliament stopped sitting in the middle of march . we are now in may , and seniors still have nothing . they are impatient themselves , and we spend a good part of our days answering them . given that impatience , i realized i should not be the one answering them , it should be the prime minister . so here is my question for the prime minister : what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in quebec and canada in the very short term ? right hon. justin trudeau: clearly , seniors need support and significant services from us because of covid-19 . our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of covid-19 . then we announced different measures , including measures for seniors . the most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the gst , which will help them very quickly . we have also reduced by 25 % the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds . we have also channelled $ 9million through the united way , to help the most vulnerable seniors . absolutely , i recognize that more must be done . i am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians , including those in the bloc qubcois , to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term . in terms of the pandemic , they have concerns about their physical security , but also about their financial security . we will have more to say about this soon . mr. yves-franois blanchet: in the last few hours , the prime minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties , including the bloc qubcois , on a completely different matter . we are very open to that discussion , but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of quebec . the cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors , as it has for everyone else . it 's true for all seniors over 65years old , of course . the current old age pension represents less than half of the canada emergency student benefit . it represents less than one third of the basic canada emergency response benefit . seniors in my constituency , as in any other of the 338constituencies , are asking what we are doing . they are asking how there can be nothing for them . when will there be something for them ? i want to be able to give them an answer of some kind . what is the prime minister 's answer ? i will repeat it to them . right hon. justin trudeau: there will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors , particularly the most vulnerable seniors . we recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone . that is why we have to do better for our seniors . there are horror stories , whether about the chslds , or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country . far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief . there are seniors who are alone , seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again . we have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war . now we have to fight for them in their homes . that is exactly what we are going to do . the chair: we 'll go to the next question . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , every day i hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head . instead of making sure that canadians get the help they need , the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks . if the prime minister wo n't commit to a universal benefit , will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we knew , when this pandemic hit , that we needed to help canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast , particularly the most vulnerable . that is why we moved forward rapidly with the canada emergency response benefit , which has helped over seven million individual canadians and has made a huge difference . we had to move very quickly to get this money out to people , and that is exactly what we did . we also recognized that there would be a need to do more . that is why since that moment , we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well . we have more to do , but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government continues to leave people behind . i spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year . she recently found a job and a place to live . however , because she did n't make $ 5,000 last year , when the pandemic hit she did n't qualify for any benefits . she did n't qualify , but she is one of the people who need it the most . i 'm wondering why the prime minister does n't think she deserves our support . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift canadians out of poverty and will support them . over the past five years , we 've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country , and we 've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we 're doing . we will continue to . we 've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable . at the same time , we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million canadians who successfully receive the cerb . we recognize there 's more to do , and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need , but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help . if a company is cheating the public , using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share , it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits . other countries , like poland , denmark and france , have made this commitment , and if they can do it , so can we . the prime minister said one thing one day and another the next . will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens , it will not receive public funds ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the measures we 've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs , regardless of the companies they work for . it is a shame to hear the ndp , which used to be the party of workers , choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for . we have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers . that is not help for the companies . that is help for the workers , and that has been our focus all the way through : ordinary canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of covid-19 . that has been our priority , and that is what canadians need right now . of course , we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion . we spent a billion dollars to strengthen our ms. laurel collins : mr. chair , can i ask my last question ? right hon . justin trudeau : we will continue to do that . the chair: i 'm just going to pause the time for a moment . i want to remind honourable members that we 're trying to stay within committee rules , which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time . i just want to remind our members of that . i 'll go back to ms. collins . she has about 45 seconds left , and hopefully that 's about half and half for the question and the answer . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins: thanks so much , mr. chair . my last question is about housing and homelessness . my community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit , and now people who are living on the streets or in parks do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home . in victoria , the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people , at least for the short term , in local hotels . will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term , stable housing ? the chair: the right honourable prime minister , in 25 seconds or less , please . right hon. justin trudeau: yes , mr. chair , we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $ 40 billion toward housing . working with partners , we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country , but there is more to do . we are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments . we recognize that during this pandemic there 's even more to do for vulnerable canadians , and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens . mr. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): a point of order , mr.chair . the chair: order . mr.godin has a point of order . mr. jol godin: mr.chair , i can not hear the french interpretation . could we please check so that i can hear in french what the prime minister is saying ? the chair: okay . can we check that ? mr. jol godin: thank you . right hon. justin trudeau: i can try speaking english . i believe i was on the english tab , as is important . are you hearing the translation now ? the chair: that is exactly what the issue was . i just want to point that out to all the members . i 'm speaking english right now and i 'm on the english toggle at the bottom of the screen . it does create a bit of a disjoint when we 're speaking , but it 's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone . the next question will go to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): mr. chair , as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum , i want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash . i know that i speak for all parliamentarians when i extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones . mr. chair , i want to raise with the prime minister an issue that i 've raised several times before , and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program . there is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country . last year , they acquired another company . those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy , but because of rules that the government designed , together they do not . even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible , so far they 've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program . as a result , thousands of jobs are threatened . will the prime minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for brandt tractor all across the country ? right hon. justin trudeau: i thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding . as i told him when we spoke directly , finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding . we recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy , but i know that finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it , so that the workers in his community can get the support they need . hon. andrew scheer: the prime minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well , so we 're hoping for some good news . just flagging the time and date , it is well into may now and important decisions have to be made in very short order . there are other aspects of the government 's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks . the plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70 % of their revenue . as provinces start to open up , many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35 % or 45 % of regular revenues . they will not be able to access these programs and , in many cases , there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work . will the prime minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country , and that 's exactly what we did . we 're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country . i am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work . we are getting closer to that point , but we are not there yet . we are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis . as different provinces move forward towards reopening , as we look at different paths forward , i know that i will be able to count on all members in the house and , indeed , on canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way . that will be good to work on together once we get there . the chair: we have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , no one is disputing the need to move quickly . we are now in may , though , and these programs have been announced for weeks . canadians have been accessing them . the problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well , but we 're also going to see an additional challenge , where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit , who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours , are faced with a hard cap of $ 1,000 a month before they lose the cerb . conservatives are proposing a progressive system , a more flexible system , where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored . again , will the prime minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work ? the chair: i believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up , but i 'll give the right honourable prime minister about 30 seconds to answer that , please . right hon. justin trudeau: thank you , mr. chair . our priority was getting support for canadians right across the country with the cerb , with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students , for seniors , for farmers and for agricultural producers . that has been our priority , and that 's what we have worked on . i hear the concerns that the conservative party has around disincentives . we are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen , to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it . however , our overarching priority was allowing canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home , care for their loved ones , buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic . that 's exactly what we did . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu now . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): mr. chair , seniors in my riding are struggling . we 've heard the prime minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down , rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing . he 's been saying for weeks that in the coming days , something would be announced for seniors . the fact is that the liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security . which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors ? hon. deb schulte (minister of seniors): mr. chair , after a lifetime of hard work , of course canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security . covid-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors . they have a greater need for services and supports . happily , their pensions and their benefits are still flowing , unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs , but it 's still tough . we introduced measures ms. marilyn gladu : which day ? hon . deb schulte : at the beginning of april . people received a gst credit , a supplementary payment that was $ 400 on average for single seniors and $ 600 for couples . that was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: yes , mr. chair . i think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question . i would just ask the minister to keep to that . i would like to go to my second question . the chair: i want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible . ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: very good , mr. chair . my riding is on the border of canada and the u.s. we see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the u.s. and actually in the interpretation of different cbsa agents . while we have americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish , individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined . we have people who have purchased masts from canadian producers for their boats , and who want to come and pick them up , who are not being allowed to do that . people trying to sell plasma into the u.s. are being denied . when will they clarify the rules to the cbsa agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce , including individual commerce , is understood ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by cbsa to stop all non-essential travel . those measures have been very successful . we 've seen a 99 % reduction in international travel coming into canada . at the same time , we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach canada and we could put groceries on our shelves . we also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border . we have provided cbsa with clarification . their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent . i 've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases . when we receive those inquiries , we follow up immediately . i want to assure the member that we 'll continue to do that . the work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of canadians , and we will continue with that work . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses . we see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outei , cerb , the wage subsidy , etc . what is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , first , let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult . the intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge . we are looking at ways that we can ensure that the canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application . more than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans , representing over $ 20 billion . we are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process , recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact , and we will have more to say on that . the chair: the next question will go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , this is my first appearance , so i hope you can hear me okay . the chair: we can hear you fine . please proceed . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . it 's good to see everyone 's faces . on april 3 , the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters . since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in prince edward island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time , but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled , giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors . this double standard is severely unfair and atlantic harvesters are furious , as demonstrated during the protests on the canso causeway yesterday . when will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 , 24 and 26 ? hon. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): mr. chair , when making decisions with regard to when seasons open , a number of factors are taken into account . they are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season , what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season , as well socio-economic impacts on the area . we 're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions . we do not make them lightly . they are difficult decisions to make . in the decisions we 've made around the gulf , one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date . that is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of may . we 're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water . we 're looking forward to the product that they bring in . we 'll continue do everything we can to support the industry . mr. mel arnold: thank you , minister . i believe the time the chair: excuse me . no , the hon . minister had another 15 seconds coming to her . i 'd like to remind hon . members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking . i 'll do my best to try to keep it about level . maybe i 'll start muting if it 's necessary , but interrupting is not going to solve anything . mr. arnold , i 'll let you continue . you have three minutes and nine seconds left . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . west coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in british columbia , especially in coastal communities , and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government . last year , the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science . a year later , the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable , science-based solutions to conserve b.c . 's public fisheries . does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support canada 's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , the fishery is important in every coastal community . i recognize its value for our economy , as well as what it means to our coastal communities . that 's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we 're doing everything we possibly can to support them . during these extremely difficult times , we 're working on measures with the fishery in b.c. , as well as on the atlantic coast and eastern quebec , to make sure that we 're delivering for them and that all of the issues they 're having are being addressed . the chair: mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , canada 's seniors , especially those on basic incomes , are being hard hit by the covid-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services . seniors require adequate caregiver supports , physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security . why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? will the government support canada 's senior citizens ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds or less , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to assure my hon . colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time . we have provided a gst credit supplement of $ 400 for single seniors and $ 600 for couples , for low- and modest-income seniors . we have also ensured that the canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to covid-19 . we 've made them eligible . the chair: we 'll go back to mr. arnold . mr. arnold , you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . on april 23 , my colleagues and i called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in canada 's essential food supply chains . what has the government done to match students and other canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors , including those in the fish and seafood sector ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , we 're doing all we can to make sure , using our existing employment programs , that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer . we know that this is going to be really tough , especially in areas like agriculture , so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government , and a number of different initiatives including canada summer jobs , which i 'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days . the chair: now we 'll go on to the next question from ms. harder . ms. rempel , do you have a point of order ? hon. michelle rempel garner (calgary nose hill, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . with my colleague , mr. arnold , it 's the second time that i note you 've threatened to cut off a conservative microphone . i 'm just wondering , given that this is n't the house of commons and it 's structured as a committee , what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of parliament using a mute button . it seems a little dictatorial , and i was just wondering whether you could clarify that , based on the standing orders . the chair: i do n't think i threatened to use mute , but thank you for bringing that up . i am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal , so that there are no interruptions on either side . that 's how we 're going to continue . i did n't use the mute . i did it verbally and i think that 's a little more civil way of doing it . i hope you approve . i 'm not asking you to comment on that . we 'll go over to ms. harder . thank you . hon. michelle rempel garner: but , on the point of order , mr. chair , you actually , to me , last week , and to mr. arnold , did suggest that you were going to use the mute button . the chair: i believe that if we take everything out and go over it .... bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where i threatened , and we 'll go over it , but i do n't think this is the venue to do that . if you want to bring forward a point of order , i 'm all in favour of it . hon. michelle rempel garner: well , i am bringing forward a point of order . i 've asked you to clarify the chair: very good . we 'll look into it and get back to you . thank you . we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government 's initiative to put a gun ban in place . does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in nova scotia ? the chair: the honourable minister in 15 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: we have heard from health professionals , women 's rights organizations , victims groups and the police and our unions . they 're all very supportive of the government 's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people . ms. rachael harder: it 's interesting that the minister is misleading canadians in that comment because the canadian association of chiefs of police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort , that it actually will not protect canadians . so i 'd be curious . how many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the liberal government ? hon. bill blair: yes , let 's actually quote what the police have said . the ontario association of chiefs of police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles . the chief in toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety , and the canadian association of police chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles . ms. rachael harder: the answer to that question is zero . absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the liberals ' legislation that 's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms . can the prime minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes ? the chair: the honourable minister in 25 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: yes , to be very clear , the order in council actually is targeted at weapons , weapons that were designed for military use , and in their design and in their intent , to kill people , they 've actually been used in this country , at cole polytechnique ; in moncton ; at a quebec city mosque ; in fredericton ; at mayerthorpe and most recently in nova scotia . these are weapons that really have no place .... they are being used and have been used in canada and around the world to commit mass murder , and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: thank you . now i understand the prime minister has his food prepared for him at 24 sussex drive and then it 's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives . contrary to his privileged understanding , food actually originates with farmers . now , they 're in a crisis right now , which means that regular canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs . the canadian federation of agriculture requested $ 2.6 billion to help them out . today , the government announced one-tenth of this amount . why does n't the prime minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep canada fed ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , let me assure the hon . member that our government cares very , very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country . let me just say i am grateful to all the farmers , like my dad , who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding . we , as canadians , are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower , and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers . ms. rachael harder: i 'm confused as to why the prime minister did n't take my question , and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister does n't feel it 's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today . when we have farmers who produce for canadians on a daily basis and they 're asking some serious and some very important questions , and we do n't even have a minister who 's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation , that 's shameful . several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of covid-19 and , as a result , farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected . cattle producers in my region are spending more than $ 60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen . the amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket . it 's a crumb . when will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in canada ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just say that i feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me , the deputy prime minister , answer questions about agriculture . i am actually very proud to speak up for canada 's amazing farmers , for our country 's amazing ranchers , for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers . i feel so close to our farmers . i love them and our government supports them . today , we announced $ 252 million of support for our producers . they need it . they deserve it . we 're here for them . the chair: now we 'll go on to mr. bezan . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week . i 'm sure that all members of the house stand shoulder to shoulder with the families , with the crew of the hmcs fredericton and , indeed , with the entire canadian armed forces community during this time of grief . can the minister of national defence give us an update as to the cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of greece last week ? hon. harjit s. sajjan (minister of national defence): mr. chair , the deaths of the canadian armed forces members are felt by all , and especially the families . our condolences go out to them . our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them , and that 's exactly what we are doing . currently , the investigation is ongoing . our investigative team is currently on the ground . i actually spoke with the italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that 's required . the chair: i 'm afraid i 'm going to have to cut you off there , if we 're going by the rules that were pointed out by the house . mr. bezan . mr. james bezan: thank you , mr. chair . through you to minister sajjan again , i 'm going to change gears a bit . i know that back in early january , military intelligence through cf intelligence command was reporting , through the chain of command , the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in wuhan . on what date was he , as minister of national defence , given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in china ? hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , we have been following this crisis from day one . we work with our five eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort , right from the beginning . i can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information . obviously , i ca n't discuss the intelligence in this forum , but i can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information . mr. james bezan: minister sajjan , we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in national defence . it was reported in the media that in early january the hierarchy within the canadian armed forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak . i asked you , minister , when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence . hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , i get regular briefings on intelligence . yes , i was made aware of this in january . as with all our intelligence , we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies . one thing i can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet . mr. james bezan: what was that timeline ? from the time you were first told , minister sajjan , about the coronavirus outbreak in wuhan , what did you do with that intelligence ? when did you give it to the prime minister or to minister hajdu as the minister of health ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me say that our government 's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of canadian intelligence agencies throughout . we have been working on this from very early on . on january 2 , phac first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation . on january 14 , it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities . in january , the prime minister convened a meeting of the incident response group , and in january we increased screening at all major airports . all of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community , and of course our work with our five eyes , nato and norad allies . mr. james bezan: i want to come back the chair: we now move to mr.ste-marie . mr. james bezan: i still have 30 seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): can i go ahead , mr.chair ? the chair: yes , go ahead . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . in an interview with grald fillion , tax expert andr lareau , who specializes in tax havens , pointed out that $ 350billion canadian is parked in just 12tax havens . companies are using tax havens for financing , operations and intellectual property activities . mr.lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it . he said that it 's time for canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $ 250-billion deficit , and that if it does n't act now to change things , it never will . is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , as soon as we took office , in 2015 , our government made cracking down on tax evaders in canada and abroad a priority . that 's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort . i realize that my fellow member is impatient , but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue . under our leadership , in three years , the canada revenue agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the conservatives were in power . as we speak , the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion . i repeat , this is a top priority for our government . mr. gabriel ste-marie: you 're right , i am very impatient , because whenever i bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally , the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters . i am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies . since parliament began sitting virtually , it 's been mentioned a few times that denmark and poland have decided to deal with the issue . even france 's finance minister , bruno lemaire , said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance . we hear theprime minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers , so i 'd like to cite another examplebanks . the government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities , and yet , the five major banks in toronto , alone , are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens . this is unacceptable . this has nothing to do with wages for workers , and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets , cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after . is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , our government is taking unprecedented steps through the canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by covid-19 . this is largely a trust-based program , and we will not tolerate abuse . anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences . applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim . what 's more , any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount . anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225 % of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison . the canada revenue agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim . as i mentioned , cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government . the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds to ask your question , and about the same for the answer . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . that 's an excellent answer , but it has nothing to do with my question . the minister of finance has the power to fix the problem now . although completely immoral , the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the income tax regulations . through simple regulatory amendments , the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse . we are going to have a $ 250-billion deficit to pay off , and everyone is going to have to chip in , including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment , our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job , and we are starting to see results . i set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations . we tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program . we signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries . we audit four jurisdictions a year . we also work closely with the oecd . the chair: we now move on to another member . the next questioner is mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , i 'm sharing my time slot with the member for surreynewton . in the wake of covid-19 , so many canadians have been affected in so many ways . financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country . i 'm proud of how the government of canada has been beside canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported canadians when they needed it most . in bonavistaburintrinity and across our country , our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts . last week , my colleague , the minister of fisheries and oceans , announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing canada 's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process , store , package and distribute healthy , high-quality products on to the plates of canadians . the fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures . they are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices . they are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times . when can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters ' requests for assistance ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague from bonavistaburintrinity for keeping us well aware of what 's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors . we know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities , our coastal communities . it 's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that 's why we want to be there to support them . we 've already taken steps by making sure that the cerb is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers . as well , we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers ei are also able to qualify for it . we also have made an investment of $ 62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of covid-19 . we know there is more to do . we know that the harvesters need support . we are working with our partners across industry to make sure we 're hearing what their major concerns are . we know they are going to have some very challenging times this season . we will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days . the chair: the next questioner is mr. dhaliwal . mr. sukh dhaliwal (surreynewton, lib.): mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: we have a point of order . mr. kurek . mr. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): sorry , but there seems to be an issue with the audio . i 'm unable to hear the honourable member . the chair: it is very faint . mr. dhaliwal , can you check your audio to make sure everything 's working well ? mr. sukh dhaliwal: it was the chair: there we go . it 's fine now . i think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it was n't being picked up . there you go . very good . mr. sukh dhaliwal: mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers , transport companies to warehousing . with provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy , there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen . with so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions , and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum , how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work . one of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories . that 's why i was so pleased that last week the prime minister , together with all the first ministers of the country , was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart . this is so important because , as my colleague has pointed out , all of our business , our economic activity , happens across the country . it happens across provincial and territorial boundaries . i would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country . they belong to different parties , but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside . we have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus , and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen canada . thank you . the chair: the next question goes to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson (edmonton strathcona, ndp): thank you , mr. chair , for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing . i 'd like to start by asking about supports for workers . in alberta , meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all covid-19 cases . the government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with covid-19 . now , two workers are dead , at least six more are in intensive care and covid-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities . there are over 1,400 cases . yesterday , employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed . on march 27 , regarding the cerb , the minister of finance said that if workers do n't feel comfortable in their work , if they decide to stay home , they can apply for the benefit , yet the website says differently . will the minister guarantee that every canadian receiving cerb , ei or the cesb will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to covid-19 ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me thank the member , first of all , for her really very important question . i think all of us share the concern for canada 's essential workers who are keeping us safe , putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions . when it comes to the cargill plant , this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in . my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant . the decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities . to the question my colleague asked about workers , it is absolutely the case that no canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe , and it is also very much the case that any canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home . this is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: we will go on to ms. mcpherson for the next question . ms. heather mcpherson: i just want to be clear , because i 'm not a hundred per cent sure that i got an answer in that response , so i 'll try one more time . knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work , can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work , they will be able to access the cerb , or was the minister of finance incorrect when he spoke on march 27 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'm sorry , but i was struggling with my mute button . i apologize . let me just be very clear . no canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions . ms. heather mcpherson: but then could they access the cerb ? hon. chrystia freeland: in a time of coronavirus that is even more the case , and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair to avoid back and forth , just to try to keep some order in the meeting . ms. mcpherson , please continue . ms. heather mcpherson: i 'm sorry , chair . i have another question on the protection for workers . at the meat-packing plant , workers are calling for the plant to be shut down . in fact , we know that 85 % of workers are afraid for their safety . if the provincial government wo n't shut down the plant , will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the canadian food inspection agency ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , on the canadian food inspection agency , let me be very clear that my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has been in touch with provincial authorities . she has been in touch with the plant . the duties of the food inspection agency , of course , are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe . that is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on . we are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: we will go back to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson: mr. chair , this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in alberta . can the finance minister please let us know if cargill , a company that is owned by billionaires , with business in luxembourg , a known tax haven , has received any federal funding this year for covid-related support ? hon. diane lebouthillier: this is a tough time for canadians , and our government is doing everything it can to support them . more than 7million canadians have applied for the canada emergency response benefit , which the canada revenue agency and service canada administer . i want to say how proud i am of the work the agency is doing ; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time . ministerqualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims . the chair: we are moving on to the next question . we 'll continue now with mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my question today is for the prime minister . potato farmers in new brunswick and across canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry , but due to the pandemic , they now have no customers . it 's estimated that there is $ 300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage . what is the prime minister 's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i think all of us as canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country . we are aware that the coronavirus , by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries , has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes . the program announced today by the prime minister and my colleague , the minister of agriculture , will be very helpful for potato farmers , including with the surplus food program that starts with a $ 50 million fund , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. bragdon now . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , thank you . with an estimated $ 300 million worth of potatoes in storage , the announced funding from the government today simply does n't go far enough . in 2018 the new brunswick potato industry lost over $ 20 million . it is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $ 40 million . for many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018 , another major loss is totally unacceptable . how does the prime minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the honourable member spoke about farmers generally . the program today is $ 252 million , which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers , of course , have access to . on potato farmers , in particular , i agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern . i think all canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used , and that 's why the $ 50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic . the $ 16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants . does the government truly believe that the announced $ 125 million that is shared between beef , poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of canadians ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef , pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country . i am very pleased as a canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves , but also enough food to feed the world . that is why the $ 125 million specifically to support our beef , pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , the government 's announcement of $ 252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the canadian federation of agriculture 's request for immediate government relief for farmers . the president of the canadian federation of agriculture , mary robinson , put it today something like this : that if the farmhouse is on fire , the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water . this will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation . does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need ? when will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i do n't know about the honourable member , but where i come from , $ 252 million is not just crumbs . i know that canadian farmers do n't feel that $ 252 million is nothing , either . i would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today : the $ 77 million to support food processors , which will not only be important for the processors , but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them ; and the $ 250 million that we would like to add to the canadian dairy commission 's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars , which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question . go ahead , mrs. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): mr. chair , a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business , and they are on cerb . they were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified , and he is receiving $ 8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year . why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , any individual who has lost work for covid reasons is eligible for the cerb , regardless of their personal circumstances . if you made $ 5,000 in the past year and are a resident of canada , you qualify for the cerb . this is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of covid . mrs. cathay wagantall: clearly , high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time . the government 's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state , in all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence . why is the prime minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our cbsa officers first , giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border , the member opposite voted against it . i 'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it . let us be very clear . the evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used , and have been used , to kill innocent people . countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like new zealand , australia , the united kingdomhave all recognized that there 's no place for these weapons in a civil society . we promised canadians that we would act on that concern . there have been far too many people killed with these weapons , and even most recently , to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in nova scotia , the time to act is now , and we 've acted . mrs. cathay wagantall: last week the minister of agriculture said , step by step we are giving our farmers ... the tools they need to continue their ... work . on april 30 , the canadian federation of agriculture called on the minister to create a $ 2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in canada . this morning , the prime minister announced $ 252 million , hit-and-miss , across the agriculture sector . with all due respect , this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector . instead of being here to speak to this announcement , the minister has chosen to do a press conference . this certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability . if the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place , how does she see it is right to be providing $ 9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , first of all , let me say i do not , as has now been suggested by two members opposite , consider it in any way shameful that i should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector . our government strongly supports our farmers . i have to say i personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them . the $ 252 million of support is real and meaningful , and it is directed exactly where it is needed . it is directed at food processors , beef and pork producers and the dairy sector . as to the question about students , let me just point out that farm kids are students too , and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students . i know they , their parents and grandparents are very mrs. cathay wagantall: time is up . the chair: mr.lehoux , the next question goes to you . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . meat packing plants like quebec-based olymel are extremely worried that they wo n't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic . in the summer , these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation . however , the canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money . that 's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors . when is the government going to make these critical changes ? hon. carla qualtrough: i can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work . we know we need to support students with income support , but we also need to create jobs . we are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through canada summer jobs , through the the chair: there is a point of order . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , what the minister is saying is not being interpreted . the chair: we 'll just check to see how the technology is going . is everything okay now ? mrs. claude debellefeuille: yes , it 's working . the chair: let 's try that again , minister . hon. carla qualtrough: last week , as part of the measures announced around supporting our students , we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs , including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors . we know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need . this is exactly what we 're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy , and that 's what we 'll continue to do . we wo n't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times . mr. richard lehoux: i 'm not sure the minister understood my question about the canada emergency student benefit . i am very concerned about the agricultural sector , but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind . a number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer . this government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students . minister , what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , with all due respect , i believe we are helping students . we 've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis . that 's why we 're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work . we 're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer . we know they want to work and they want to serve . mr. richard lehoux: i hope that we 'll see some concrete results . pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country 's shutdown triggered by the pandemic . processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts . for the past five years , the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved . now more than ever , producers need these programs . however , the programs have n't been reviewed yet . when will the government make these changes , including the changes to agristability , and when can producers access them ? hon. chrystia freeland: we announced over $ 77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus . to help livestock and pork producers , we established agrirecovery , a national initiative that will provide $ 125million to help producers adapt to market changes . we 're launching the chair: mr.lehoux has the floor . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . i understand some of what the minister is saying . the measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector , since the sector had asked for about $ 2.6billion . i think that it 's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms , given the significant need for sovereignty . many canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear , as i was saying earlier . something must be done quickly , before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours . has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place ? hon. chrystia freeland: our country , canada , will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food . canada is a major beef , pork and grain producer . canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that . i want to mention another significant part of our announcement today , which is the $ 50million surplus food purchase program . this is very significant . i think that all canadians must support this initiative . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): we 'll now move on to the next question . mr.calkins , the member for reddeerlacombe , has the floor . mr. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): madam chair , how will the government 's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners ' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the united states ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , in response to that , i would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society , so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people . i would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border . we 'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police . we 'll bring forward new authorities , new offences , new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border . we 're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns . to deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally , there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences . mr. blaine calkins: the government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts . the recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy . a legal opinion that 's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres . that means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited . that is the same firearm that olympic trap shooters , olympic skeet shooters , duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis . why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , i 'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member . first of all , we have prohibited large-bore weapons , such as grenade launchers , but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun , i would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width , both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on friday . i 'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in canada when it comes to firearms legislation . if the entirety of the barrel length is considered , then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres . i would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners . there is no plan for a buyback program in this policy , and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms . given this , and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners are n't committing any gun violence , what was the government 's immediate benefit of making this announcement on may 1 ? hon. bill blair: thank you , and i 'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify . along with the prohibition that we have put in place , we have also , using the order in council , established an amnesty period , but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons . they can not be used , they ca n't be taken to the range for shooting , they ca n't be used for hunting , they ca n't be sold and they ca n't be transferred , so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use . we have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible , safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society . i look forward to the member 's support for those measures as we go forward . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , since january 1 , 2002 , any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until may 1 of this year . how many times was this most recent mass murderer here in canada checked against a criminal database since january 2002 ? hon. bill blair: as the member is probably aware , there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms , and it 's not appropriate to discuss that . however , i think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes . they were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers . in the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder , they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to canadians , and that 's why we have prohibited them . i 'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws , such as new zealand , australia and the united kingdom , have also implemented very similar bans . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to the hon . member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , madam chair . i 'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the hmcs fredericton who died , and in particular to the family of captain kevin hagen . he was originally a constituent from nanaimoladysmith . other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors , including in schools , on public transit and in stores . taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces . the taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing . they do not have a lockdown . taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by covid-19 , and today it is number 119. will canada follow taiwan 's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get canadians back to work ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): thank you very much , madam chair , and i thank the member for his question . there 's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting canadians ' health and safety , but as the member has mentioned , there are many other aspects to ensuring that canadians are safe no matter where they go . for example , it is of utmost importance that canadians practise social distancing . social distancing can provide the most protection , in fact , when you 're out in public or you 're in another place where there are other people . wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection , and certainly dr. tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option , canadians should consider wearing a mask . mr. paul manly: thank you . i 'd like to give a shout-out to martha and her team , who are doing a fundraiser for the spca by making masks for citizens in my riding . madam chair , many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan , including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income . will the government make the cerb a universal benefit to ensure that all canadians who need help get help ? if not , will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their rrsp without penalties so that they can pay their bills ? hon. deb schulte: thank you very much , and i really appreciate the question . we do recognize that oas and gis are very important parts of the retirement income of canadians , particularly lower-income seniors . we 've already introduced measures like the gst credit supplement to help seniors . the cerb is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of covid-19 . we 've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25 % , and we 've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable canadians , including seniors the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): we are going back to mr. manly . thank you . hon. deb schulte: i do recognize that there 's more to be done . thank you . mr. paul manly: many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer , particularly sole proprietorships . i have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out . at the same time , we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services . will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in canada ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): i want to thank the hon . member for the question . small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country . that is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in covid-19 . whether it is a small business loan , a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance , or just lowering the cost by deferring gst or hst or customs duties , many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): mr. manly , you may have a very short question . mr. paul manly: thank you , madam chair . as we navigate this pandemic crisis , we are also in the middle of another major crisis : the climate emergency . will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning ? the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): the hon . minister has 15 seconds . hon. jonathan wilkinson (minister of environment and climate change): thank you for the question . the focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken . as we look forward , we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon . climate change is one of those , and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to ms. ashton . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): thank you , madam chair . my question is to the minister of indigenous services . first nations across northern manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep covid-19 out of their communities . many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions , but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place , such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals . we have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of covid-19 . what is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility ? why is n't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in berens river , a hospital in cross lake , a hospital in the island lake region ? if the government could n't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic , can it at least act in time for a potential second wave ? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): indeed , madam chair , one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we do n't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading covid-19 . a lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations . in the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of covid-19 , there are many measures that indigenous services canada and as a whole of government we will deploy , including surge capacity , increased ppe , and nurses and doctors . obviously , we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem , and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of covid-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures . ms. niki ashton: again , madam chair , to the minister of indigenous services , many of us across northern canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern saskatchewan , centred in la loche . the outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in fort mcmurray . these camps are making workers sick , and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities . these work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic . your government says it 's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe , yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns . will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now ? hon. marc miller: madam chair , the situation in la loche is a very pressing concern . members wo n't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing . we are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the mtis and dene communities in la loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect . this is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute , and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources , along with meadow lake and the northern inter-tribal health authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem . clearly , we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach ms. niki ashton: my question referred to la loche , but this is a broader issue . there are many work camps , including here in our north , that first nations are extremely concerned about . will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time ? hon. marc miller: one of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads , particularly the fear of clusters as communities , provinces , territories may choose to relax certain measures , is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it , particularly in northern and vulnerable communities . this is something for which we will need to have a serious approach , with both the minister of natural resources and also our provincial counterparts , to make sure that we are n't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we 're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading covid-19 . ms. niki ashton: madam chair , my question is for the minister of fisheries . hundreds of fishers and their families here in manitoba who work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation are desperately calling for emergency support . many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the ffmc to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing . when will your government announce support for inland fishers , including here in manitoba , and will you work to ensure that their product , healthy fish , can be provided here at home for people who need it ? hon. bernadette jordan: madam chair , we know that covid-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities , especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance . indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $ 306 million we 've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses . the funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions . we also announced earlier that the canadian northern economic development agency has made available $ 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses . we know that there 's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters . we 're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): i need to interrupt you . we 'll now hear from claudedebellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: thank you , madamchair . i do n't want to talk about tax cheats . i do n't want to talk about the $ 1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats . i want to ask the minister why she is n't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens , a legal but immoral practice in this day and age . can she explain why she is n't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance , which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , as soon as our government took office in 2015 , we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats . our government 's historic investments of almost $ 1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work . we 're already starting to see the results . as i was saying , i established an expert advisory committee to advise us . we 've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program . we 've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information . we 're auditing four countries a year . we 're working with the oecd . currently , over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ms.debellefeuille has the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , does the minister realize that she 's being filmed and recorded and that she is n't answering my question ? i do n't want to talk about cheats . i want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens . i can see that she does n't want to answer my question . i 'll ask her another question . can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens ? how much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism ? the government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-covid-19 . hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , i completely understand my colleague 's impatience . however , she must understand that this type of issue is very complex . under the former conservative government , the issue was n't a priority at all . regarding tax evasion abroad , our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the conservatives . over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): go ahead , madame debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , i 'm not impatient . however , i do n't understand the government 's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism , which is legal but completely immoral . our questions remain unanswered . my next question is for the minister of finance . the fdration de la relve agricole du qubec and the upa approached the minister of finance two weeks ago and still have n't received a response regarding the following issue . we know that many farms do n't pay wages . as a result , these farms are being penalized because they are n't eligible for the $ 40,000 in loans available through the canada emergency business account . to qualify for these loans , the farms needed a payroll of $ 20,000 to $ 1.5million in 2019. does the minister of finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $ 40,000 in loans ? hon. bill morneau: thank you , ms.debellefeuille . we know that the canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it . mr. damien kurek: on a point of order hon. bill morneau: that 's why we 're considering our approach . of course mr. damien kurek: i have a point of order . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ministermorneau , please wait a moment . a member is raising a point of order . mr. kurek , do you have a point of order ? you have to unmute yourself . mr. damien kurek: yes . it 's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): you 'll have to put yourself on english . rather , the minister has to put himself on french . hon. bill morneau: sorry . i was on the english channel . we know that the people who need the canada emergency response benefit must have access to it . that 's why we 're considering the challenges each time . if i receive a letter , i 'll look at it . once we have a response , we 'll pass it directly on to the member . the chair: the next question will go to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): this question is for the tourism minister . the tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis , yet despite the prime minister 's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed canadians who work in tourism , there 's still been nothing from this government . when will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted . i had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector , and clearly there 's a lot of anxiety . we also had the chance to work with all the g20 ministers of tourism all together , and we know we have to act the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. richards . mr. blake richards: i did n't really get much of an answer there . i hear a lot about talking and not much on action . tourism-based communities like the ones in banff and canmore , which i represent , are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85 % or higher . they also do n't qualify for a lot of the programs because they 're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from may to october , so they 're at risk of losing their entire season . i have a couple of very specific questions . will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help ? what does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic ? hon. mlanie joly: thank you . obviously , the tourism sector has access to many measures , including the ceba account , the $ 40,000 account . they also have access to the wage subsidy . they have access to rent relief . they will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies , and we 'll be coming up with the details soon . of course , in my colleague 's riding of banff , which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem , they will have access to the support through wd , western economic diversification . if there are particular cases you would like to raise with me , i would be more than happy to talk to you to see how , on the ground , we can help the tourism operators . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , clearly the tourism minister has n't been listening . she says she 's talking to the industry . she 's not hearing their concerns . what she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries . it does n't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they 'll have after the pandemic . let 's try another minister and see if we can get some answers . another industry that 's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry . it 's another industry the prime minister has promised to help , but there has n't been anything . clearly there 's a pattern here . the only so-called assistance there 's been to help hurting albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in . will the liberal government ever show any concern for albertans ? will they bring forward a plan to preserve canadian jobs ? will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of canadian oil before oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): in fact , mr. chair , the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry . we have the canada emergency wage subsidy , which covers 75 % of an employee 's wages for the employer . we have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $ 15 million to $ 60 million from the business development bank of canada . we continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of covid-19 on my province here in newfoundland and labrador and on alberta and saskatchewan . these three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time , a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with covid-19 . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , a lot of these things we 're hearing about are n't going to actually help the industry to recover . what we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed . maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of canadians back to work . will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects ? will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan: mr. chair , we have been working with our provincial partners . we have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry . we have been working with labour , concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers . we 're particularly proud of our orphan wells program , which was launched by the alberta government in conjunction with us . it was launched last week . i am pleased to inform this house that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected . the chair: that 's all the time we have for questions today . i want to thank all the members for taking part . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . thank you .

ms. mcpherson wanted to know how the government will respond to outbreaks in meat-packing plants since workers ' pleas to place effective safety protocols have been fruitless . she further inquired if the federal government would provide financial support to the workers if they declined to work under unsafe conditions , and , if it comes to it , shut down the plants . she finally wanted to know if the cargill business , which uses luxembourg as a tax haven , was the recipient of pandemic relief funds .

what did chrystia freeland think about restoring canadian businesses during the pandemic ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call the meeting to order . welcome to the third meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . pursuant to the order of reference of monday , april20 , the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements , allowing members to present petitions , and questioning ministers of the crown , including the prime minister , in respect of the covid-19 pandemic . i understand there 's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the canadian armed forces who lost their lives last wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of greece . we 'll return to order . colleagues , we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the covid-19 pandemic . as we do , canadians , like everyone around the world , are doing their best to live their lives until things improve . meanwhile , as we look towards the future , i believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history . at this very moment , the dominion carillonneur , dr. andrea mccrady , is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the netherlands by the canadian forces . in may 1945 , canadian forces played a major role in liberating the dutch people from nazi occupation . may 5 is now a national holiday in the netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries . today 's meeting is taking place by video conference . the proceedings will be made available via the house of commons website . please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee . let me remind you that , as in the house or in committee , members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings . in order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings , i will outline a few rules . interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the house . at the bottom of your screen , you can choose floor , english or french . as you have seen , i change as i am speaking . i have now switched over to english in order to speak english . if you look at the bottom , you have a little flag that indicates whether it 's english or french , and that 's how we will be speaking . it makes it easier . that was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session . i understand that there are no statements by ministers . we can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions . in addition , to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented , the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee . i thank all the members for their usual co-operation . thank you all . now we 'll proceed to presenting petitions . our first petition comes from the honourable member for sherwood parkfort saskatchewan , mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today . the first petition is with respect to government bill c-7 . petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime . it includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person 's consent . the petitioners urge the house of commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia , and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people . this would require that bill to be amended or not passed . the second petition is with respect to senate public bill s-204 . this is on organ harvesting and trafficking . petitioners call on members of the house , and hopefully the senate as well , to support bill s-204 , which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent . it would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking . thank you very much . the chair: thank you . i want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us . if you do n't have one , please talk to your it ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible . the reason for them is not so much for what you hear , but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult . part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset , which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members . now we go to the member for beacheseast york , mr. erskine-smith . mr. nathaniel erskine-smith (beacheseast york, lib.): mr. chair , i had to learn how to tie my tie all over again . it 's been so long . i want to thank jenna robar , who 's led this petition e-2453 . the petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in canada and that 2019 , last year , was declared by the un to be the year of indigenous languages . they draw attention to article 13 of the undrip and to the trc 's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. fundamentally , they call upon the government of canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of canada and to have each language recognized nationally , with implementations on regional and provincial levels , acknowledging that many regions have different languages . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): mr. chair , i am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents , myles lynch of st. andrews west in my riding . myles made history as the first canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants . myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years , and he 's only 22 years old . myles created a documentary called 8 thousand myles , which had a few showings in my riding . it documented his journey across canada . one thing myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation . myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue . i mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them . i am proud to have this certified today , with 1,318 signatures , asking the standing committee on health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program . i give kudos to myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system . kudos to myles . i 'm proud to present this petition today . mr. peter julian (new westminsterburnaby, ndp): mr. chair , i 'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of toronto , mississauga and brampton , ontario , who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of canadians who have signed similar petitions . given that canadians are living through unprecedented , catastrophic climate events , and at the same time our society , as you know , is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of canadian families are only $ 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing , these petitioners are calling on the government of canada to support motion m-1 , a made-in-canada green new deal that i am presenting in front of the house of commons . it calls on canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency , and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , it 's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from courtenayalberni . they are concerned , obviously , about fentanyl-related deaths . over 12,000 canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources . they cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective ; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs ; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl . they are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources , with proper measures and bylaws , will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs . problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption . they are calling on the government of canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the emergencies act . they are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession , as has been done in portugal and other countries , and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally , recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source . mr. brad vis (missionmatsquifraser canyon, cpc): mr. chair , i 'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of canadians in my riding with the government 's approach to firearms legislation and regulation . the petition highlights that the liberal government 's december 5 , 2019 , speech from the throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation ; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in canadian law ; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions ; that the experts , including chiefs of police , agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety ; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into canada from the united states ; and that the liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs , drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities . the petitioners in missionmatsquifraser canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners ; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed , rcmp-vetted canadians ; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement , on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs , on mental health and on providing the canada border services agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively . the chair: very good . that 's all for petitions today . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair . ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking . i want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly , not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters . we start the question period with mr.paul-hus . mr. pierre paul-hus (charlesbourghaute-saint-charles, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in canada and its impacts , the prime minister is deceiving canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners . why ? right hon. justin trudeau (prime minister): mr.chair , i feel that all canadians were affected by the massacre in nova scotia . once again , too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief . during the last election campaign , we promised to ban military-style assault weapons , and that is exactly what we have done . we will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control . it is a shame that , once more , the conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i understand the prime minister 's reply . however , i would like to know whether he considers that , with this order in council , organized crime , street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons . right hon. justin trudeau: this is indeed only a first step , but it is an important one . we are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities , to strengthen the control at our borders , and to implement other measures . i am pleased to hear the hon . member speak of those measures , because we are going to work together in the house to strengthen gun control . i hope that the conservative party will be part of that discussion in a positive way , in order to keep canadians safe . mr. pierre paul-hus: mr.chair , i can simply say to the prime minister that the conservative party has always been committed to battling criminals , not law-abiding citizens . speaking of criminals , we know that , even before the pandemic , the prime minister had asked the parole board of canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly . now we are learning that , because of the pandemic , some releases are happening very quickly . the minister of public safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older , but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released . can the prime minister give us an explanation ? right hon. justin trudeau: the protection , the safety and the health of all canadians are important for the government . this is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected . we have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases , but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for canadians . we have managed to find the right balance . we must protect canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe . those two things go hand-in-hand . mr. pierre paul-hus: so is the prime minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience covid-19 within the walls ? right hon. justin trudeau: there are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released . the chair: mr.paul-hus , you have one minute left . mr. pierre paul-hus: thank you , mr.chair . the chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus . australia asked for an in-depth investigation , but has received threats from the communist regime . is canada going to stand by its allies in the five eyes and demand that the chinese government be completely transparent ? right hon. justin trudeau: we continue to stand in solidarity with our allies , including the five eyes , as they have stood in solidarity with canada in terms of the two canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in china . in the coming months and years , we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic , including questions that are important for china . at the same time , we are going to work hard to ensure that all canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic . the chair: we now move to mr.blanchet . mr. yves-franois blanchet (beloeilchambly, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i am sorry that i do not have my official headset . i was elsewhere , and i did not bring it with me . i hope that you can still hear me properly . for some days , discussions have been going on between people from the bloc qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in quebec and canada . the gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $ 25per week , or $ 110per month . by the way , i hate the term `` old age security . i prefer `` senior security . the discussion has been going on for some time and it 's a proposal that we made in the election campaign . we are asking for it to be done at this point , at least temporarily . parliament stopped sitting in the middle of march . we are now in may , and seniors still have nothing . they are impatient themselves , and we spend a good part of our days answering them . given that impatience , i realized i should not be the one answering them , it should be the prime minister . so here is my question for the prime minister : what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in quebec and canada in the very short term ? right hon. justin trudeau: clearly , seniors need support and significant services from us because of covid-19 . our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of covid-19 . then we announced different measures , including measures for seniors . the most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the gst , which will help them very quickly . we have also reduced by 25 % the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds . we have also channelled $ 9million through the united way , to help the most vulnerable seniors . absolutely , i recognize that more must be done . i am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians , including those in the bloc qubcois , to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term . in terms of the pandemic , they have concerns about their physical security , but also about their financial security . we will have more to say about this soon . mr. yves-franois blanchet: in the last few hours , the prime minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties , including the bloc qubcois , on a completely different matter . we are very open to that discussion , but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of quebec . the cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors , as it has for everyone else . it 's true for all seniors over 65years old , of course . the current old age pension represents less than half of the canada emergency student benefit . it represents less than one third of the basic canada emergency response benefit . seniors in my constituency , as in any other of the 338constituencies , are asking what we are doing . they are asking how there can be nothing for them . when will there be something for them ? i want to be able to give them an answer of some kind . what is the prime minister 's answer ? i will repeat it to them . right hon. justin trudeau: there will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors , particularly the most vulnerable seniors . we recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone . that is why we have to do better for our seniors . there are horror stories , whether about the chslds , or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country . far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief . there are seniors who are alone , seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again . we have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war . now we have to fight for them in their homes . that is exactly what we are going to do . the chair: we 'll go to the next question . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , every day i hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head . instead of making sure that canadians get the help they need , the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks . if the prime minister wo n't commit to a universal benefit , will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we knew , when this pandemic hit , that we needed to help canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast , particularly the most vulnerable . that is why we moved forward rapidly with the canada emergency response benefit , which has helped over seven million individual canadians and has made a huge difference . we had to move very quickly to get this money out to people , and that is exactly what we did . we also recognized that there would be a need to do more . that is why since that moment , we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well . we have more to do , but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government continues to leave people behind . i spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year . she recently found a job and a place to live . however , because she did n't make $ 5,000 last year , when the pandemic hit she did n't qualify for any benefits . she did n't qualify , but she is one of the people who need it the most . i 'm wondering why the prime minister does n't think she deserves our support . right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift canadians out of poverty and will support them . over the past five years , we 've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country , and we 've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we 're doing . we will continue to . we 've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable . at the same time , we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million canadians who successfully receive the cerb . we recognize there 's more to do , and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need , but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help . if a company is cheating the public , using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share , it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits . other countries , like poland , denmark and france , have made this commitment , and if they can do it , so can we . the prime minister said one thing one day and another the next . will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens , it will not receive public funds ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , the measures we 've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs , regardless of the companies they work for . it is a shame to hear the ndp , which used to be the party of workers , choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for . we have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers . that is not help for the companies . that is help for the workers , and that has been our focus all the way through : ordinary canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of covid-19 . that has been our priority , and that is what canadians need right now . of course , we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion . we spent a billion dollars to strengthen our ms. laurel collins : mr. chair , can i ask my last question ? right hon . justin trudeau : we will continue to do that . the chair: i 'm just going to pause the time for a moment . i want to remind honourable members that we 're trying to stay within committee rules , which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time . i just want to remind our members of that . i 'll go back to ms. collins . she has about 45 seconds left , and hopefully that 's about half and half for the question and the answer . ms. collins . ms. laurel collins: thanks so much , mr. chair . my last question is about housing and homelessness . my community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit , and now people who are living on the streets or in parks do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home . in victoria , the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people , at least for the short term , in local hotels . will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term , stable housing ? the chair: the right honourable prime minister , in 25 seconds or less , please . right hon. justin trudeau: yes , mr. chair , we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $ 40 billion toward housing . working with partners , we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country , but there is more to do . we are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments . we recognize that during this pandemic there 's even more to do for vulnerable canadians , and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens . mr. jol godin (portneufjacques-cartier, cpc): a point of order , mr.chair . the chair: order . mr.godin has a point of order . mr. jol godin: mr.chair , i can not hear the french interpretation . could we please check so that i can hear in french what the prime minister is saying ? the chair: okay . can we check that ? mr. jol godin: thank you . right hon. justin trudeau: i can try speaking english . i believe i was on the english tab , as is important . are you hearing the translation now ? the chair: that is exactly what the issue was . i just want to point that out to all the members . i 'm speaking english right now and i 'm on the english toggle at the bottom of the screen . it does create a bit of a disjoint when we 're speaking , but it 's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone . the next question will go to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): mr. chair , as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum , i want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash . i know that i speak for all parliamentarians when i extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones . mr. chair , i want to raise with the prime minister an issue that i 've raised several times before , and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program . there is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country . last year , they acquired another company . those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy , but because of rules that the government designed , together they do not . even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible , so far they 've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program . as a result , thousands of jobs are threatened . will the prime minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for brandt tractor all across the country ? right hon. justin trudeau: i thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding . as i told him when we spoke directly , finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding . we recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy , but i know that finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it , so that the workers in his community can get the support they need . hon. andrew scheer: the prime minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well , so we 're hoping for some good news . just flagging the time and date , it is well into may now and important decisions have to be made in very short order . there are other aspects of the government 's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks . the plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70 % of their revenue . as provinces start to open up , many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35 % or 45 % of regular revenues . they will not be able to access these programs and , in many cases , there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work . will the prime minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead ? right hon. justin trudeau: mr. chair , we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country , and that 's exactly what we did . we 're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country . i am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work . we are getting closer to that point , but we are not there yet . we are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis . as different provinces move forward towards reopening , as we look at different paths forward , i know that i will be able to count on all members in the house and , indeed , on canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way . that will be good to work on together once we get there . the chair: we have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , no one is disputing the need to move quickly . we are now in may , though , and these programs have been announced for weeks . canadians have been accessing them . the problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well , but we 're also going to see an additional challenge , where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit , who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours , are faced with a hard cap of $ 1,000 a month before they lose the cerb . conservatives are proposing a progressive system , a more flexible system , where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored . again , will the prime minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work ? the chair: i believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up , but i 'll give the right honourable prime minister about 30 seconds to answer that , please . right hon. justin trudeau: thank you , mr. chair . our priority was getting support for canadians right across the country with the cerb , with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students , for seniors , for farmers and for agricultural producers . that has been our priority , and that 's what we have worked on . i hear the concerns that the conservative party has around disincentives . we are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen , to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it . however , our overarching priority was allowing canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home , care for their loved ones , buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic . that 's exactly what we did . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu now . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): mr. chair , seniors in my riding are struggling . we 've heard the prime minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down , rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing . he 's been saying for weeks that in the coming days , something would be announced for seniors . the fact is that the liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security . which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors ? hon. deb schulte (minister of seniors): mr. chair , after a lifetime of hard work , of course canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security . covid-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors . they have a greater need for services and supports . happily , their pensions and their benefits are still flowing , unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs , but it 's still tough . we introduced measures ms. marilyn gladu : which day ? hon . deb schulte : at the beginning of april . people received a gst credit , a supplementary payment that was $ 400 on average for single seniors and $ 600 for couples . that was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: yes , mr. chair . i think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question . i would just ask the minister to keep to that . i would like to go to my second question . the chair: i want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible . ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: very good , mr. chair . my riding is on the border of canada and the u.s. we see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the u.s. and actually in the interpretation of different cbsa agents . while we have americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish , individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined . we have people who have purchased masts from canadian producers for their boats , and who want to come and pick them up , who are not being allowed to do that . people trying to sell plasma into the u.s. are being denied . when will they clarify the rules to the cbsa agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce , including individual commerce , is understood ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by cbsa to stop all non-essential travel . those measures have been very successful . we 've seen a 99 % reduction in international travel coming into canada . at the same time , we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach canada and we could put groceries on our shelves . we also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border . we have provided cbsa with clarification . their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent . i 've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases . when we receive those inquiries , we follow up immediately . i want to assure the member that we 'll continue to do that . the work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of canadians , and we will continue with that work . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses . we see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outei , cerb , the wage subsidy , etc . what is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr. chair , first , let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult . the intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge . we are looking at ways that we can ensure that the canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application . more than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans , representing over $ 20 billion . we are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process , recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact , and we will have more to say on that . the chair: the next question will go to mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold (north okanaganshuswap, cpc): mr. chair , this is my first appearance , so i hope you can hear me okay . the chair: we can hear you fine . please proceed . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . it 's good to see everyone 's faces . on april 3 , the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters . since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in prince edward island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time , but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled , giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors . this double standard is severely unfair and atlantic harvesters are furious , as demonstrated during the protests on the canso causeway yesterday . when will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 , 24 and 26 ? hon. bernadette jordan (minister of fisheries, oceans and the canadian coast guard): mr. chair , when making decisions with regard to when seasons open , a number of factors are taken into account . they are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season , what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season , as well socio-economic impacts on the area . we 're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions . we do not make them lightly . they are difficult decisions to make . in the decisions we 've made around the gulf , one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date . that is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of may . we 're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water . we 're looking forward to the product that they bring in . we 'll continue do everything we can to support the industry . mr. mel arnold: thank you , minister . i believe the time the chair: excuse me . no , the hon . minister had another 15 seconds coming to her . i 'd like to remind hon . members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking . i 'll do my best to try to keep it about level . maybe i 'll start muting if it 's necessary , but interrupting is not going to solve anything . mr. arnold , i 'll let you continue . you have three minutes and nine seconds left . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . west coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in british columbia , especially in coastal communities , and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government . last year , the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science . a year later , the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable , science-based solutions to conserve b.c . 's public fisheries . does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support canada 's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , the fishery is important in every coastal community . i recognize its value for our economy , as well as what it means to our coastal communities . that 's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we 're doing everything we possibly can to support them . during these extremely difficult times , we 're working on measures with the fishery in b.c. , as well as on the atlantic coast and eastern quebec , to make sure that we 're delivering for them and that all of the issues they 're having are being addressed . the chair: mr. arnold . mr. mel arnold: mr. chair , canada 's seniors , especially those on basic incomes , are being hard hit by the covid-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services . seniors require adequate caregiver supports , physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security . why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? will the government support canada 's senior citizens ? the chair: the hon . minister in 30 seconds or less , please . hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to assure my hon . colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time . we have provided a gst credit supplement of $ 400 for single seniors and $ 600 for couples , for low- and modest-income seniors . we have also ensured that the canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to covid-19 . we 've made them eligible . the chair: we 'll go back to mr. arnold . mr. arnold , you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer . mr. mel arnold: thank you , mr. chair . on april 23 , my colleagues and i called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in canada 's essential food supply chains . what has the government done to match students and other canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors , including those in the fish and seafood sector ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , we 're doing all we can to make sure , using our existing employment programs , that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer . we know that this is going to be really tough , especially in areas like agriculture , so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government , and a number of different initiatives including canada summer jobs , which i 'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days . the chair: now we 'll go on to the next question from ms. harder . ms. rempel , do you have a point of order ? hon. michelle rempel garner (calgary nose hill, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . with my colleague , mr. arnold , it 's the second time that i note you 've threatened to cut off a conservative microphone . i 'm just wondering , given that this is n't the house of commons and it 's structured as a committee , what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of parliament using a mute button . it seems a little dictatorial , and i was just wondering whether you could clarify that , based on the standing orders . the chair: i do n't think i threatened to use mute , but thank you for bringing that up . i am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal , so that there are no interruptions on either side . that 's how we 're going to continue . i did n't use the mute . i did it verbally and i think that 's a little more civil way of doing it . i hope you approve . i 'm not asking you to comment on that . we 'll go over to ms. harder . thank you . hon. michelle rempel garner: but , on the point of order , mr. chair , you actually , to me , last week , and to mr. arnold , did suggest that you were going to use the mute button . the chair: i believe that if we take everything out and go over it .... bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where i threatened , and we 'll go over it , but i do n't think this is the venue to do that . if you want to bring forward a point of order , i 'm all in favour of it . hon. michelle rempel garner: well , i am bringing forward a point of order . i 've asked you to clarify the chair: very good . we 'll look into it and get back to you . thank you . we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government 's initiative to put a gun ban in place . does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in nova scotia ? the chair: the honourable minister in 15 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: we have heard from health professionals , women 's rights organizations , victims groups and the police and our unions . they 're all very supportive of the government 's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people . ms. rachael harder: it 's interesting that the minister is misleading canadians in that comment because the canadian association of chiefs of police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort , that it actually will not protect canadians . so i 'd be curious . how many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the liberal government ? hon. bill blair: yes , let 's actually quote what the police have said . the ontario association of chiefs of police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles . the chief in toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety , and the canadian association of police chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles . ms. rachael harder: the answer to that question is zero . absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the liberals ' legislation that 's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms . can the prime minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes ? the chair: the honourable minister in 25 seconds or less , please . hon. bill blair: yes , to be very clear , the order in council actually is targeted at weapons , weapons that were designed for military use , and in their design and in their intent , to kill people , they 've actually been used in this country , at cole polytechnique ; in moncton ; at a quebec city mosque ; in fredericton ; at mayerthorpe and most recently in nova scotia . these are weapons that really have no place .... they are being used and have been used in canada and around the world to commit mass murder , and in the interest of public safety and at the urging the chair: we 'll go on to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: thank you . now i understand the prime minister has his food prepared for him at 24 sussex drive and then it 's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives . contrary to his privileged understanding , food actually originates with farmers . now , they 're in a crisis right now , which means that regular canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs . the canadian federation of agriculture requested $ 2.6 billion to help them out . today , the government announced one-tenth of this amount . why does n't the prime minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep canada fed ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , let me assure the hon . member that our government cares very , very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country . let me just say i am grateful to all the farmers , like my dad , who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding . we , as canadians , are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower , and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers . ms. rachael harder: i 'm confused as to why the prime minister did n't take my question , and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister does n't feel it 's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today . when we have farmers who produce for canadians on a daily basis and they 're asking some serious and some very important questions , and we do n't even have a minister who 's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation , that 's shameful . several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of covid-19 and , as a result , farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected . cattle producers in my region are spending more than $ 60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen . the amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket . it 's a crumb . when will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in canada ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just say that i feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me , the deputy prime minister , answer questions about agriculture . i am actually very proud to speak up for canada 's amazing farmers , for our country 's amazing ranchers , for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers . i feel so close to our farmers . i love them and our government supports them . today , we announced $ 252 million of support for our producers . they need it . they deserve it . we 're here for them . the chair: now we 'll go on to mr. bezan . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week . i 'm sure that all members of the house stand shoulder to shoulder with the families , with the crew of the hmcs fredericton and , indeed , with the entire canadian armed forces community during this time of grief . can the minister of national defence give us an update as to the cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of greece last week ? hon. harjit s. sajjan (minister of national defence): mr. chair , the deaths of the canadian armed forces members are felt by all , and especially the families . our condolences go out to them . our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them , and that 's exactly what we are doing . currently , the investigation is ongoing . our investigative team is currently on the ground . i actually spoke with the italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that 's required . the chair: i 'm afraid i 'm going to have to cut you off there , if we 're going by the rules that were pointed out by the house . mr. bezan . mr. james bezan: thank you , mr. chair . through you to minister sajjan again , i 'm going to change gears a bit . i know that back in early january , military intelligence through cf intelligence command was reporting , through the chain of command , the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in wuhan . on what date was he , as minister of national defence , given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in china ? hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , we have been following this crisis from day one . we work with our five eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort , right from the beginning . i can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information . obviously , i ca n't discuss the intelligence in this forum , but i can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information . mr. james bezan: minister sajjan , we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in national defence . it was reported in the media that in early january the hierarchy within the canadian armed forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak . i asked you , minister , when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence . hon. harjit s. sajjan: mr. chair , i get regular briefings on intelligence . yes , i was made aware of this in january . as with all our intelligence , we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies . one thing i can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet . mr. james bezan: what was that timeline ? from the time you were first told , minister sajjan , about the coronavirus outbreak in wuhan , what did you do with that intelligence ? when did you give it to the prime minister or to minister hajdu as the minister of health ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me say that our government 's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of canadian intelligence agencies throughout . we have been working on this from very early on . on january 2 , phac first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation . on january 14 , it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities . in january , the prime minister convened a meeting of the incident response group , and in january we increased screening at all major airports . all of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community , and of course our work with our five eyes , nato and norad allies . mr. james bezan: i want to come back the chair: we now move to mr.ste-marie . mr. james bezan: i still have 30 seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): can i go ahead , mr.chair ? the chair: yes , go ahead . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . in an interview with grald fillion , tax expert andr lareau , who specializes in tax havens , pointed out that $ 350billion canadian is parked in just 12tax havens . companies are using tax havens for financing , operations and intellectual property activities . mr.lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it . he said that it 's time for canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $ 250-billion deficit , and that if it does n't act now to change things , it never will . is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , as soon as we took office , in 2015 , our government made cracking down on tax evaders in canada and abroad a priority . that 's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort . i realize that my fellow member is impatient , but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue . under our leadership , in three years , the canada revenue agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the conservatives were in power . as we speak , the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion . i repeat , this is a top priority for our government . mr. gabriel ste-marie: you 're right , i am very impatient , because whenever i bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally , the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters . i am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies . since parliament began sitting virtually , it 's been mentioned a few times that denmark and poland have decided to deal with the issue . even france 's finance minister , bruno lemaire , said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance . we hear theprime minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers , so i 'd like to cite another examplebanks . the government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities , and yet , the five major banks in toronto , alone , are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens . this is unacceptable . this has nothing to do with wages for workers , and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets , cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after . is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , our government is taking unprecedented steps through the canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by covid-19 . this is largely a trust-based program , and we will not tolerate abuse . anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences . applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim . what 's more , any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount . anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225 % of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison . the canada revenue agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim . as i mentioned , cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government . the chair: mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds to ask your question , and about the same for the answer . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you , mr.chair . that 's an excellent answer , but it has nothing to do with my question . the minister of finance has the power to fix the problem now . although completely immoral , the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the income tax regulations . through simple regulatory amendments , the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse . we are going to have a $ 250-billion deficit to pay off , and everyone is going to have to chip in , including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment , our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job , and we are starting to see results . i set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations . we tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program . we signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries . we audit four jurisdictions a year . we also work closely with the oecd . the chair: we now move on to another member . the next questioner is mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , i 'm sharing my time slot with the member for surreynewton . in the wake of covid-19 , so many canadians have been affected in so many ways . financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country . i 'm proud of how the government of canada has been beside canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported canadians when they needed it most . in bonavistaburintrinity and across our country , our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts . last week , my colleague , the minister of fisheries and oceans , announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing canada 's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process , store , package and distribute healthy , high-quality products on to the plates of canadians . the fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures . they are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices . they are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times . when can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters ' requests for assistance ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague from bonavistaburintrinity for keeping us well aware of what 's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors . we know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities , our coastal communities . it 's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that 's why we want to be there to support them . we 've already taken steps by making sure that the cerb is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers . as well , we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers ei are also able to qualify for it . we also have made an investment of $ 62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of covid-19 . we know there is more to do . we know that the harvesters need support . we are working with our partners across industry to make sure we 're hearing what their major concerns are . we know they are going to have some very challenging times this season . we will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days . the chair: the next questioner is mr. dhaliwal . mr. sukh dhaliwal (surreynewton, lib.): mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all the chair: we have a point of order . mr. kurek . mr. damien kurek (battle rivercrowfoot, cpc): sorry , but there seems to be an issue with the audio . i 'm unable to hear the honourable member . the chair: it is very faint . mr. dhaliwal , can you check your audio to make sure everything 's working well ? mr. sukh dhaliwal: it was the chair: there we go . it 's fine now . i think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it was n't being picked up . there you go . very good . mr. sukh dhaliwal: mr. chair , in my riding of surreynewton , i 'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers , transport companies to warehousing . with provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy , there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen . with so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions , and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum , how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work . one of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories . that 's why i was so pleased that last week the prime minister , together with all the first ministers of the country , was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart . this is so important because , as my colleague has pointed out , all of our business , our economic activity , happens across the country . it happens across provincial and territorial boundaries . i would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country . they belong to different parties , but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside . we have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus , and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen canada . thank you . the chair: the next question goes to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson (edmonton strathcona, ndp): thank you , mr. chair , for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing . i 'd like to start by asking about supports for workers . in alberta , meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all covid-19 cases . the government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with covid-19 . now , two workers are dead , at least six more are in intensive care and covid-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities . there are over 1,400 cases . yesterday , employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed . on march 27 , regarding the cerb , the minister of finance said that if workers do n't feel comfortable in their work , if they decide to stay home , they can apply for the benefit , yet the website says differently . will the minister guarantee that every canadian receiving cerb , ei or the cesb will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to covid-19 ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me thank the member , first of all , for her really very important question . i think all of us share the concern for canada 's essential workers who are keeping us safe , putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions . when it comes to the cargill plant , this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in . my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant . the decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities . to the question my colleague asked about workers , it is absolutely the case that no canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe , and it is also very much the case that any canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home . this is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care the chair: we will go on to ms. mcpherson for the next question . ms. heather mcpherson: i just want to be clear , because i 'm not a hundred per cent sure that i got an answer in that response , so i 'll try one more time . knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work , can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work , they will be able to access the cerb , or was the minister of finance incorrect when he spoke on march 27 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'm sorry , but i was struggling with my mute button . i apologize . let me just be very clear . no canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions . ms. heather mcpherson: but then could they access the cerb ? hon. chrystia freeland: in a time of coronavirus that is even more the case , and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions . the chair: i want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair to avoid back and forth , just to try to keep some order in the meeting . ms. mcpherson , please continue . ms. heather mcpherson: i 'm sorry , chair . i have another question on the protection for workers . at the meat-packing plant , workers are calling for the plant to be shut down . in fact , we know that 85 % of workers are afraid for their safety . if the provincial government wo n't shut down the plant , will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the canadian food inspection agency ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , on the canadian food inspection agency , let me be very clear that my colleague , the minister of agriculture , has been in touch with provincial authorities . she has been in touch with the plant . the duties of the food inspection agency , of course , are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe . that is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on . we are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that the chair: we will go back to ms. mcpherson . ms. heather mcpherson: mr. chair , this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in alberta . can the finance minister please let us know if cargill , a company that is owned by billionaires , with business in luxembourg , a known tax haven , has received any federal funding this year for covid-related support ? hon. diane lebouthillier: this is a tough time for canadians , and our government is doing everything it can to support them . more than 7million canadians have applied for the canada emergency response benefit , which the canada revenue agency and service canada administer . i want to say how proud i am of the work the agency is doing ; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time . ministerqualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims . the chair: we are moving on to the next question . we 'll continue now with mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my question today is for the prime minister . potato farmers in new brunswick and across canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry , but due to the pandemic , they now have no customers . it 's estimated that there is $ 300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage . what is the prime minister 's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i think all of us as canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country . we are aware that the coronavirus , by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries , has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes . the program announced today by the prime minister and my colleague , the minister of agriculture , will be very helpful for potato farmers , including with the surplus food program that starts with a $ 50 million fund , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. bragdon now . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , thank you . with an estimated $ 300 million worth of potatoes in storage , the announced funding from the government today simply does n't go far enough . in 2018 the new brunswick potato industry lost over $ 20 million . it is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $ 40 million . for many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018 , another major loss is totally unacceptable . how does the prime minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the honourable member spoke about farmers generally . the program today is $ 252 million , which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers , of course , have access to . on potato farmers , in particular , i agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern . i think all canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used , and that 's why the $ 50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic . the $ 16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants . does the government truly believe that the announced $ 125 million that is shared between beef , poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of canadians ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef , pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country . i am very pleased as a canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves , but also enough food to feed the world . that is why the $ 125 million specifically to support our beef , pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful . mr. richard bragdon: mr. chair , the government 's announcement of $ 252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the canadian federation of agriculture 's request for immediate government relief for farmers . the president of the canadian federation of agriculture , mary robinson , put it today something like this : that if the farmhouse is on fire , the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water . this will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation . does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need ? when will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i do n't know about the honourable member , but where i come from , $ 252 million is not just crumbs . i know that canadian farmers do n't feel that $ 252 million is nothing , either . i would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today : the $ 77 million to support food processors , which will not only be important for the processors , but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them ; and the $ 250 million that we would like to add to the canadian dairy commission 's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars , which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers . the chair: now we 'll go to the next question . go ahead , mrs. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): mr. chair , a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business , and they are on cerb . they were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified , and he is receiving $ 8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year . why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , any individual who has lost work for covid reasons is eligible for the cerb , regardless of their personal circumstances . if you made $ 5,000 in the past year and are a resident of canada , you qualify for the cerb . this is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of covid . mrs. cathay wagantall: clearly , high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time . the government 's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state , in all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence . why is the prime minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our cbsa officers first , giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , i note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border , the member opposite voted against it . i 'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it . let us be very clear . the evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used , and have been used , to kill innocent people . countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like new zealand , australia , the united kingdomhave all recognized that there 's no place for these weapons in a civil society . we promised canadians that we would act on that concern . there have been far too many people killed with these weapons , and even most recently , to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in nova scotia , the time to act is now , and we 've acted . mrs. cathay wagantall: last week the minister of agriculture said , step by step we are giving our farmers ... the tools they need to continue their ... work . on april 30 , the canadian federation of agriculture called on the minister to create a $ 2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in canada . this morning , the prime minister announced $ 252 million , hit-and-miss , across the agriculture sector . with all due respect , this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector . instead of being here to speak to this announcement , the minister has chosen to do a press conference . this certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability . if the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place , how does she see it is right to be providing $ 9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , first of all , let me say i do not , as has now been suggested by two members opposite , consider it in any way shameful that i should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector . our government strongly supports our farmers . i have to say i personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them . the $ 252 million of support is real and meaningful , and it is directed exactly where it is needed . it is directed at food processors , beef and pork producers and the dairy sector . as to the question about students , let me just point out that farm kids are students too , and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students . i know they , their parents and grandparents are very mrs. cathay wagantall: time is up . the chair: mr.lehoux , the next question goes to you . mr. richard lehoux (beauce, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . meat packing plants like quebec-based olymel are extremely worried that they wo n't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic . in the summer , these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation . however , the canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money . that 's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors . when is the government going to make these critical changes ? hon. carla qualtrough: i can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work . we know we need to support students with income support , but we also need to create jobs . we are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through canada summer jobs , through the the chair: there is a point of order . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , what the minister is saying is not being interpreted . the chair: we 'll just check to see how the technology is going . is everything okay now ? mrs. claude debellefeuille: yes , it 's working . the chair: let 's try that again , minister . hon. carla qualtrough: last week , as part of the measures announced around supporting our students , we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs , including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors . we know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need . this is exactly what we 're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy , and that 's what we 'll continue to do . we wo n't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times . mr. richard lehoux: i 'm not sure the minister understood my question about the canada emergency student benefit . i am very concerned about the agricultural sector , but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind . a number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer . this government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students . minister , what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , with all due respect , i believe we are helping students . we 've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis . that 's why we 're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work . we 're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer . we know they want to work and they want to serve . mr. richard lehoux: i hope that we 'll see some concrete results . pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country 's shutdown triggered by the pandemic . processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts . for the past five years , the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved . now more than ever , producers need these programs . however , the programs have n't been reviewed yet . when will the government make these changes , including the changes to agristability , and when can producers access them ? hon. chrystia freeland: we announced over $ 77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus . to help livestock and pork producers , we established agrirecovery , a national initiative that will provide $ 125million to help producers adapt to market changes . we 're launching the chair: mr.lehoux has the floor . mr. richard lehoux: thank you , mr.chair . i understand some of what the minister is saying . the measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector , since the sector had asked for about $ 2.6billion . i think that it 's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms , given the significant need for sovereignty . many canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear , as i was saying earlier . something must be done quickly , before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours . has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place ? hon. chrystia freeland: our country , canada , will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food . canada is a major beef , pork and grain producer . canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that . i want to mention another significant part of our announcement today , which is the $ 50million surplus food purchase program . this is very significant . i think that all canadians must support this initiative . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends (brossardsaint-lambert, lib.)): we 'll now move on to the next question . mr.calkins , the member for reddeerlacombe , has the floor . mr. blaine calkins (red deerlacombe, cpc): madam chair , how will the government 's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners ' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the united states ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , in response to that , i would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society , so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people . i would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border . we 'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police . we 'll bring forward new authorities , new offences , new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border . we 're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns . to deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally , there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences . mr. blaine calkins: the government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts . the recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy . a legal opinion that 's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres . that means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited . that is the same firearm that olympic trap shooters , olympic skeet shooters , duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis . why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy ? hon. bill blair: madam chair , i 'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member . first of all , we have prohibited large-bore weapons , such as grenade launchers , but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun , i would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width , both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on friday . i 'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in canada when it comes to firearms legislation . if the entirety of the barrel length is considered , then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres . i would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners . there is no plan for a buyback program in this policy , and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms . given this , and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners are n't committing any gun violence , what was the government 's immediate benefit of making this announcement on may 1 ? hon. bill blair: thank you , and i 'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify . along with the prohibition that we have put in place , we have also , using the order in council , established an amnesty period , but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons . they can not be used , they ca n't be taken to the range for shooting , they ca n't be used for hunting , they ca n't be sold and they ca n't be transferred , so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use . we have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible , safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society . i look forward to the member 's support for those measures as we go forward . mr. blaine calkins: madam chair , since january 1 , 2002 , any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until may 1 of this year . how many times was this most recent mass murderer here in canada checked against a criminal database since january 2002 ? hon. bill blair: as the member is probably aware , there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms , and it 's not appropriate to discuss that . however , i think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes . they were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers . in the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder , they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to canadians , and that 's why we have prohibited them . i 'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws , such as new zealand , australia and the united kingdom , have also implemented very similar bans . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to the hon . member for nanaimoladysmith , mr. manly . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , madam chair . i 'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the hmcs fredericton who died , and in particular to the family of captain kevin hagen . he was originally a constituent from nanaimoladysmith . other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors , including in schools , on public transit and in stores . taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces . the taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing . they do not have a lockdown . taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by covid-19 , and today it is number 119. will canada follow taiwan 's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get canadians back to work ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): thank you very much , madam chair , and i thank the member for his question . there 's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting canadians ' health and safety , but as the member has mentioned , there are many other aspects to ensuring that canadians are safe no matter where they go . for example , it is of utmost importance that canadians practise social distancing . social distancing can provide the most protection , in fact , when you 're out in public or you 're in another place where there are other people . wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection , and certainly dr. tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option , canadians should consider wearing a mask . mr. paul manly: thank you . i 'd like to give a shout-out to martha and her team , who are doing a fundraiser for the spca by making masks for citizens in my riding . madam chair , many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan , including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income . will the government make the cerb a universal benefit to ensure that all canadians who need help get help ? if not , will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their rrsp without penalties so that they can pay their bills ? hon. deb schulte: thank you very much , and i really appreciate the question . we do recognize that oas and gis are very important parts of the retirement income of canadians , particularly lower-income seniors . we 've already introduced measures like the gst credit supplement to help seniors . the cerb is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of covid-19 . we 've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25 % , and we 've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable canadians , including seniors the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): we are going back to mr. manly . thank you . hon. deb schulte: i do recognize that there 's more to be done . thank you . mr. paul manly: many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer , particularly sole proprietorships . i have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out . at the same time , we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services . will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in canada ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): i want to thank the hon . member for the question . small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country . that is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in covid-19 . whether it is a small business loan , a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance , or just lowering the cost by deferring gst or hst or customs duties , many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): mr. manly , you may have a very short question . mr. paul manly: thank you , madam chair . as we navigate this pandemic crisis , we are also in the middle of another major crisis : the climate emergency . will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning ? the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): the hon . minister has 15 seconds . hon. jonathan wilkinson (minister of environment and climate change): thank you for the question . the focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken . as we look forward , we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon . climate change is one of those , and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): now we will go to ms. ashton . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): thank you , madam chair . my question is to the minister of indigenous services . first nations across northern manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep covid-19 out of their communities . many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions , but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place , such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals . we have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of covid-19 . what is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility ? why is n't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in berens river , a hospital in cross lake , a hospital in the island lake region ? if the government could n't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic , can it at least act in time for a potential second wave ? hon. marc miller (minister of indigenous services): indeed , madam chair , one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we do n't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading covid-19 . a lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations . in the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of covid-19 , there are many measures that indigenous services canada and as a whole of government we will deploy , including surge capacity , increased ppe , and nurses and doctors . obviously , we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem , and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of covid-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures . ms. niki ashton: again , madam chair , to the minister of indigenous services , many of us across northern canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern saskatchewan , centred in la loche . the outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in fort mcmurray . these camps are making workers sick , and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities . these work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic . your government says it 's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe , yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns . will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now ? hon. marc miller: madam chair , the situation in la loche is a very pressing concern . members wo n't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing . we are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the mtis and dene communities in la loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect . this is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute , and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources , along with meadow lake and the northern inter-tribal health authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem . clearly , we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach ms. niki ashton: my question referred to la loche , but this is a broader issue . there are many work camps , including here in our north , that first nations are extremely concerned about . will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time ? hon. marc miller: one of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads , particularly the fear of clusters as communities , provinces , territories may choose to relax certain measures , is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it , particularly in northern and vulnerable communities . this is something for which we will need to have a serious approach , with both the minister of natural resources and also our provincial counterparts , to make sure that we are n't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we 're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading covid-19 . ms. niki ashton: madam chair , my question is for the minister of fisheries . hundreds of fishers and their families here in manitoba who work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation are desperately calling for emergency support . many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the ffmc to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing . when will your government announce support for inland fishers , including here in manitoba , and will you work to ensure that their product , healthy fish , can be provided here at home for people who need it ? hon. bernadette jordan: madam chair , we know that covid-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities , especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance . indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $ 306 million we 've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses . the funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions . we also announced earlier that the canadian northern economic development agency has made available $ 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses . we know that there 's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters . we 're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): i need to interrupt you . we 'll now hear from claudedebellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: thank you , madamchair . i do n't want to talk about tax cheats . i do n't want to talk about the $ 1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats . i want to ask the minister why she is n't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens , a legal but immoral practice in this day and age . can she explain why she is n't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance , which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , as soon as our government took office in 2015 , we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats . our government 's historic investments of almost $ 1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work . we 're already starting to see the results . as i was saying , i established an expert advisory committee to advise us . we 've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program . we 've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information . we 're auditing four countries a year . we 're working with the oecd . currently , over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ms.debellefeuille has the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , does the minister realize that she 's being filmed and recorded and that she is n't answering my question ? i do n't want to talk about cheats . i want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens . i can see that she does n't want to answer my question . i 'll ask her another question . can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens ? how much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism ? the government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-covid-19 . hon. diane lebouthillier: madamchair , i completely understand my colleague 's impatience . however , she must understand that this type of issue is very complex . under the former conservative government , the issue was n't a priority at all . regarding tax evasion abroad , our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the conservatives . over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): go ahead , madame debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: madamchair , i 'm not impatient . however , i do n't understand the government 's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism , which is legal but completely immoral . our questions remain unanswered . my next question is for the minister of finance . the fdration de la relve agricole du qubec and the upa approached the minister of finance two weeks ago and still have n't received a response regarding the following issue . we know that many farms do n't pay wages . as a result , these farms are being penalized because they are n't eligible for the $ 40,000 in loans available through the canada emergency business account . to qualify for these loans , the farms needed a payroll of $ 20,000 to $ 1.5million in 2019. does the minister of finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $ 40,000 in loans ? hon. bill morneau: thank you , ms.debellefeuille . we know that the canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it . mr. damien kurek: on a point of order hon. bill morneau: that 's why we 're considering our approach . of course mr. damien kurek: i have a point of order . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): ministermorneau , please wait a moment . a member is raising a point of order . mr. kurek , do you have a point of order ? you have to unmute yourself . mr. damien kurek: yes . it 's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister . the acting chair (mrs. alexandra mends): you 'll have to put yourself on english . rather , the minister has to put himself on french . hon. bill morneau: sorry . i was on the english channel . we know that the people who need the canada emergency response benefit must have access to it . that 's why we 're considering the challenges each time . if i receive a letter , i 'll look at it . once we have a response , we 'll pass it directly on to the member . the chair: the next question will go to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): this question is for the tourism minister . the tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis , yet despite the prime minister 's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed canadians who work in tourism , there 's still been nothing from this government . when will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted . i had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector , and clearly there 's a lot of anxiety . we also had the chance to work with all the g20 ministers of tourism all together , and we know we have to act the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. richards . mr. blake richards: i did n't really get much of an answer there . i hear a lot about talking and not much on action . tourism-based communities like the ones in banff and canmore , which i represent , are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85 % or higher . they also do n't qualify for a lot of the programs because they 're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from may to october , so they 're at risk of losing their entire season . i have a couple of very specific questions . will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help ? what does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic ? hon. mlanie joly: thank you . obviously , the tourism sector has access to many measures , including the ceba account , the $ 40,000 account . they also have access to the wage subsidy . they have access to rent relief . they will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies , and we 'll be coming up with the details soon . of course , in my colleague 's riding of banff , which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem , they will have access to the support through wd , western economic diversification . if there are particular cases you would like to raise with me , i would be more than happy to talk to you to see how , on the ground , we can help the tourism operators . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , clearly the tourism minister has n't been listening . she says she 's talking to the industry . she 's not hearing their concerns . what she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries . it does n't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they 'll have after the pandemic . let 's try another minister and see if we can get some answers . another industry that 's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry . it 's another industry the prime minister has promised to help , but there has n't been anything . clearly there 's a pattern here . the only so-called assistance there 's been to help hurting albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in . will the liberal government ever show any concern for albertans ? will they bring forward a plan to preserve canadian jobs ? will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of canadian oil before oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan (minister of natural resources): in fact , mr. chair , the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry . we have the canada emergency wage subsidy , which covers 75 % of an employee 's wages for the employer . we have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $ 15 million to $ 60 million from the business development bank of canada . we continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of covid-19 on my province here in newfoundland and labrador and on alberta and saskatchewan . these three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time , a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with covid-19 . mr. blake richards: mr. chair , a lot of these things we 're hearing about are n't going to actually help the industry to recover . what we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed . maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of canadians back to work . will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects ? will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like saudi arabia ? hon. seamus o'regan: mr. chair , we have been working with our provincial partners . we have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry . we have been working with labour , concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers . we 're particularly proud of our orphan wells program , which was launched by the alberta government in conjunction with us . it was launched last week . i am pleased to inform this house that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected . the chair: that 's all the time we have for questions today . i want to thank all the members for taking part . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon . thank you .

hon . chrystia freeland was thankful for the farmers who worked hard to feed the country and was pleased that partisanship had been pushed aside to fight the coronavirus . she stood by the idea that no canadian should have to work in an unsafe environment and put her trust in the food inspection agency to regulate working conditions .

summarize what was said about digits form </s> grad d: and we already got the crash out of the way . it did crash , so i feel much better , earlier . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: interesting . hmm . professor f: will you get the door , and ? grad d: ok , so um . professor f: ok . you collected an agenda , huh ? grad d: i did collect an agenda . so i 'm gon na go first . mwa - ha - ha ! it should n't take too long . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . we 've gone once through the set . um , so the only thing i have to do professor f: no there 's only ten . grad d: yeah , that 's right . so i i just have to go through them professor f: well , ok . grad d: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . so we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . i 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . we have about two hours worth . i extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . so i extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the `` key `` file and the transcript files are parsable . some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and i have to go back and fix those . so what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . um , liz professor f: so you think two you think two hours is the is the total that we have ? grad d: yep , yeah . professor f: and you think we th uh , i i did n't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ? grad d: yes , absolutely . professor f: ok . grad d: so it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . i have this web - based speaker form , and i sent mail to everyone who had n't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in . professor f: so the relevance of the speaker form here , s grad d: it 's for labeling the extracted audio files . professor f: oh , ok . grad d: by speaker id and microphone type . professor f: was n't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something . grad d: no , i spoke with jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that we edit out any of the errors anyway . right ? so the there are no errors in the digits , professor f: yeah . grad d: you 'll always read the string correctly . so i ca n't imagine why anyone would care . so the other topic with digits is uh , liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in english . and it just did n't work at all because no one grouped them together . so it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . so in conversations with liz and uh jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . the problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . when i look at this , that first line is `` sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . `` um , and so the question is does anyone care ? um , i 've already spoken with liz and she feels that , correct me if i 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: as opposed to connected digits . um , i think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wan na do training and adaptation and all that other stuff . professor f: yeah um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you would n't like that ? is that correct ? phd g: well , we actually figured out a way to grad d: yeah , the the phd g: the the groupings are randomly generated . professor f: no but , i was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was n't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would n't , uh , go and do numbers so much . you know if it if it 's phd a: uh phd g: i think they may still do it , um , professor f: maybe some , but i probably not so much . phd b: what about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? phd g: and professor f: right ? so if you if if you have uh grad d: six dash one , you mean ? professor f: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one . phd g: i well ok i it might help , i would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping . professor f: that 's what i was asking , yeah . phd g: um , so if that 's your question , professor f: yeah . phd g: but i mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits postdoc e: yeah . phd g: if that 's what people want . i i 'm postdoc e: yeah . phd g: do n't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data , grad d: right . phd g: and that 's always a good thing . grad d: yep . phd g: it 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . they 're better trained than the numbers . grad d: so we could just , uh , put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` . professor f: right . phd g: right . right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: and if people make a mistake we grad d: how about `` o `` versus `` zero `` ? professor f: i mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's it 's it 's - i 'm not worrying about it i mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from ogi . i 'm sorry , digits numbers training that we have from ogi , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . and um . phd g: but it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean for it 's professor f: no , no , i guess what i 'm saying is that grad d: just let them read it how they read it . professor f: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have . phd g: right . well that 's fine with me as long as it 's just that i did n't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits . professor f: yeah . we can go back to the other thing later . phd g: so professor f: i mean we s we we 've we can do this for awhile phd g: ok . professor f: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . do yo i mean , do you want do you want this do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? phd g: ok . professor f: how much of this do you need ? with uh the phd g: it 's actually unclear right now . i just thought well we 're if we 're collec collecting digits , and adam had said we were running out of the ti forms , i thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits professor f: ok . phd g: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gon na do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . so we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general . professor f: ok , well if you pre phd g: but if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one oo `` . and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` o `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` o `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context , professor f: yeah . phd g: and that 's sort of interesting . so i do n't have a specific need cuz if i did i 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but if we can try it grad d: ok so so i can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: right , and you can give an example like , you know , `` six sixty - one would be read as six one `` . grad d: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . and i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words . phd g: and i think people will get it . postdoc e: i 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single . phd g: right , right . postdoc e: the spaces already bias it toward being separated . phd g: it 's just easier to read . postdoc e: and i know i 'm gon na find this easier than words . phd g: right . grad d: oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier . phd g: ok i also had a hard hard time with the words , professor f: yeah . phd g: but then we went back and forth on that . ok , so let 's give that a try grad d: ok . and is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ? professor f: ok . phd g: and grad d: or is that alright ? phd g: i mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading { comment } them . postdoc e: i think that i it 's fine . grad d: ok . postdoc e: i it it to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation phd g: ok . postdoc e: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all . phd g: great . ok . grad d: and i think there are about ten different gouping patterns professor f: let 's try it . phd g: well let 's give it a try . grad d: is n't that right , liz ? that we did . phd g: righ - right , and you just they 're randomly generated and randomly assigned to digits . postdoc e: i did mm - hmm . professor f: so we have postdoc e: go ahead . professor f: sorry , i i was just gon na say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now . and you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then , grad d: yep . professor f: something like twenty twenty to one . which i guess makes makes sense . so if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this . grad d: right . professor f: um , yeah like you say , i think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set 's ok . it 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll we might use use this up , uh , in some sense , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: right . professor f: but but uh postdoc e: yeah , i also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank . grad d: right . postdoc e: hmm ? cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . and i think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally american speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database . grad d: right . i think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing ti - digits probably is n't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different . professor f: yeah . grad d: it 's gon na be very hard to be comparable . postdoc e: except that if you have the stimuli comparable , then it says something about the the contribution of setting professor f: no it 's it 's not the same . postdoc e: and professor f: a little bit , but the other differences are so major . grad d: yeah i mean read versus not . postdoc e: ok . professor f: they 're such major sources of variance that it 's it 's it 's uh postdoc e: what 's an example of a of m some of the other differences ? any other a difference ? professor f: well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one , postdoc e: ok . professor f: you know , it 's just there 's so many things . grad d: well , and not just that , postdoc e: ok . professor f: it 's it and and enunciation . grad d: i mean the uh the corpus itself . i mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and i 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . i mean if i remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that . professor f: ti - digits was ? grad d: i thought so . professor f: i thought i thought it was read . grad d: was it read ? professor f: yeah , i think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be ogi . grad d: oh , i may well be . professor f: yeah , no ti - digits was read in th in read in the studio i believe . grad d: i have n't ever listened to ti - digits . so i do n't really know how it compares . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: but but regardless it 's gon na it 's hard to compare cross - corpus . professor f: but it but it - it 's different people is the is the core thing . grad d: so . postdoc e: ok , fine . professor f: and they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's it 's it 's really pretty different . but i think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you could n't do exact comparisons , it would n't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . uh , you know it 's not phd b: hey liz , what what do the groupings represent ? postdoc e: ok . phd b: you said there 's like ten different groupings ? phd g: right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings . phd b: mm - hmm . are the patterns like are they based on anything or phd g: um , i i just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time . phd b: oh . phd g: and they can have , i mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . in the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . so , there 's between , um well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and i purposely did n't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern . phd b: mmm . phd g: so grad d: and which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly . phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: so unlike the previous one , which i d simply replicated ti - digits , this is generated randomly . phd g: right . phd a: oh ok . phd b: mmm , oh , ok . phd g: but i think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or ti - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: and , i mean so it 's it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . especially for speakers that do n't talk a lot . grad d: yeah . phd g: so um , for adaptation . no , i 'm serious , phd a: yeah . grad d: yeah all we have for some people is digits . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know grad d: oh , you 're not . phd g: not for adaptation , nope . v w we 're not we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and i 'd as soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and i thought `` well , we 're gon na do better on that , grad d: oh i see . phd g: that 's not fair to use `` . grad d: oh yeah that 's true , absolutely . phd a: ok . phd g: but , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . so those speakers who are very quiet , { comment } shy grad d: that would be interesting to see whether that helps . phd g: r right phd b: like adam ? grad d: do you think that would help adapting on yeah . yeah , i have a real problem with that . professor f: yeah . phd g: well , it sh i mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the in the same meeting , grad d: right . same same acoustics , professor f: yeah . phd g: and so you do n't get grad d: same microphone , phd a: yeah . grad d: same channel . phd g: right , and so i still like the idea of having some kind of digit data . grad d: ok . good . professor f: yeah i mean , for the for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , i see it as as as the place that we start . but , th i mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but but uh the truth is i 'm hoping that we we through the the stuff that that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . so . postdoc e: great . phd g: the only thing that we do n't have , i know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we do n't have any overlapping digits . grad d: yeah , we talked about that a couple times . phd g: an - yea i know it 's weird , but um phd a: overlapping digits ! grad d: the the problem i see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load . phd g: alright everybody 's laughing . ok . grad c: dueling digits . grad d: no it 's it 's not stupid , it 's just i mean , try to do it . phd g: i 'm just talkin for the stuff that like dan ellis is gon na try , grad d: i mean , here , let 's try it . phd g: you know , cross - talk cancellation . grad d: you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: let 's try it . phd g: ok . phd a: oh ! phd g: wait oh it these are all the same forms . professor f: sixty - one . phd g: ok { comment } so but grad d: so so you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: no , i 'll p phd g: so you plu you plug your ears . grad d: oh i guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you do n't get the the same effects . phd a: yeah . phd g: well , what i mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people grad d: yeah . phd g: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like dan ellis and and company want to do . grad d: oh i see . phd g: digits are nice and well behaved , i mean grad d: i guess we could try . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . grad d: we could try doing some . phd g: it it would go faster . phd b: parallel . phd g: it would take one around { comment } amount of ti phd b: it 's the p - make of digit reading . grad d: well well ok . well let 's try it . phd g: that 's right . i i mea i 'm i was sort of serious , but i really , i mean , i 'm i do n't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea , professor f: see , y grad d: you do the last line , i 'll do the first line . phd g: so . professor f: ok . grad d: o . { comment } that 's not bad . professor f: no , i can do it . phd b: i could n't understand a single thing you guys were saying . phd g: a and that prosody was great , by the way . postdoc e: i think it was numbers , but i 'm not sure . phd g: it it sort of sounded like a duet , or something . phd a: yeah . phd b: performance art . professor f: alright , let 's try three at once you you pick one in the middle . phd a: the aurora theater . phd g: ok . professor f: go . phd g: i 'm sorry . i 'm mean i think it 's doable , grad d: the poor transcribers phd g: i 'm just grad d: they 're gon na hate us . phd g: so , we we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something . phd a: so pairwise . professor f: oh like a round , yeah , like in a a phd g: like a , phd a: yeah , just pairwise , professor f: yeah . phd g: what do you call it ? phd a: or yeah . grad c: round . grad d: a round . professor f: row , row , row your boat . phd g: li - a r like grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , like that . professor f: ok . phd b: it 's gon na require some coordination . phd g: then it would go like h twice as fast , or a third as fast . postdoc e: you have to have a similar pace . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . professor f: yeah . phd g: i 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wan na work on it we should talk to them . professor f: i do n't think we 're gon na collect vast amounts of data that way , phd g: so . grad d: mmm . professor f: but i think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like dan to play around with , phd g: ok . grad d: i think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad d: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . so . phd g: can try it out . grad d: see see what dan thinks . phd g: if we have nothing if we have no agenda we could do it some week . grad d: yeah , right . professor f: yeah , yeah . spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities . phd g: ok . grad d: i thought this was gon na be fast . postdoc e: c c can i can i have an another another question w about this ? grad d: oh well . postdoc e: so , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . like `` wonderful `` has `` one `` in it and and victor borge had a had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . well , i wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of `` one `` in `` wonderful `` versus `` one `` as a digit being read . professor f: that 's `` two `` bad . yeah . phd g: i 'm all `` four `` it . postdoc e: there you go . grad d: not after i `` eight `` though . professor f: uh , they do n't all work as well , do they ? hmm . what does nine work in ? grad c: nein ! grad d: uh . professor f: uh , grad c: you scream it . grad d: nein ! you have to be german , professor f: oh . in german , phd a: that 's german , yeah . phd b: it 's great for the germans . professor f: yeah . grad d: yeah . phd g: oh , oh ! postdoc e: nein . professor f: that 's right ! phd a: yeah . grad d: oh ! grad c: it only sounds w good when you scream it , though . so . professor f: i think everybody 's a little punchy here today . postdoc e: well , i mean , i just wanted to offer that as a possible task professor f: yes . postdoc e: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and i would n't take the inflated version . so he talks about the woman being `` two - derful `` , and and a but , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read . professor f: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i do n't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers . grad d: i think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh timit . professor f: well i do n't know . well i think the question is what the research is , so i mean , i presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here . grad d: hmm . professor f: yeah ok . phd g: right , yeah . professor f: so if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the the the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits a a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but i think someone would have to express interest in that . postdoc e: i see . ok . professor f: i think , to i mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance . postdoc e: ok , thank you . grad d: ok , are we done with digits ? postdoc e: huh . grad d: um , we have asr results from liz , transcript status from jane , and disk space and storage formats from don . does do we have any prefer preference on which way we wan na we wan na go ? phd g: well i was actually gon na skip the asr results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: since i think that 's more important to moving forward , but i mean morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of asr results because we did n't do anything fancy , but i think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . and then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the on the close - talking mikes . phd a: so these grad d: um , why do n't you , if you have a hard copy , why do n't you email it to the list . phd g: so , that 's about the summary but this is morgan has this paper . phd a: yeah , yeah . grad d: oh it 's in the paper . professor f: yeah , so it 's the same thing ? phd g: i mean he he professor f: it 's the same thing i mailed to every everybody that w where it was , phd g: it it 's that paper . grad d: ok . phd g: yeah , yeah . grad d: ok then , it 's already been mailed . phd g: so , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that professor f: yeah . phd g: and it 's let 's see , th i guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad . grad d: horrible ? phd g: and it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech . phd a: so , your your asr results were run on the channels synchronized , phd g: yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time , phd a: ok . ok . ok . phd g: um but as we i mean i wanted to here more about the transcription . if we can get the channel asynchronous or the phd a: yeah . phd g: the closer t that would be very interesting for us phd b: so if phd g: because we professor f: yeah , that 's that 's why i only used the part from use phd a: yeah . professor f: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels phd a: yeah . phd g: right . that 's phd a: yeah sure . yeah . professor f: or mixed channel phd a: yeah . professor f: rather mixed signal . phd b: so if there was a segment of speech this long phd g: cuz phd a: yeah . phd b: and oh and someone said `` oh , `` the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ? grad d: and someone said `` oh `` in the front in the middle . phd a: there were several speakers in it , yeah . phd g: that 's right . in fact i i pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wan na u use them in your talk of phd b: that 's why there 's so many insertion errors ? grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: chuck on the lapel , so chuck wore the lapel three out of four times . grad c: mmm . grad d: i noticed that chuck was wearing the lapel a lot . phd b: early on , yeah . phd g: um , yeah , and i wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was ok . i mean i still and i do n't know why . i 'm but um , grad d: probably how you wear it wore it i would guess . phd g: for you it was or who was next to me or something like that . grad c: yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it . phd a: yeah . phd g: right , but when chuck wore the lapel and morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion insertions are n't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate . grad d: uh - huh . phd a: yeah . phd g: and that 's that 's where the problems come in . so i this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to to show it . grad d: right . phd g: and also i just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh andreas and i called up dan ellis who 's still stuck in switzerland , and we were gon na ask him if if there 're you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . not that we were gon na do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done . grad d: and he said , `` lots lots lots lots . `` phd g: and he we 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap . phd a: yep . phd g: and he 's gon na look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do phd b: so phd g: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature . phd b: so so the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking { comment } based on the other peopl phd g: right . or who 's at any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker . phd a: so yeah phd b: i thought we were just gon na move the boundaries in . phd a: yeah , should it phd g: so . grad d: well that 's with the hand stuff . phd g: so there 's like grad d: but how would you do that automatically ? phd g: well ther there 's phd a: uh , i 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation phd b: right . phd a: and it seems to work pretty well to to get rid of those those overlaps , grad d: i mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do . professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad d: so . phd g: yeah . exactly , so it 's it 's a phd b: so why do you want to do echo cancellation ? phd g: um , it would be techniques used from adaptive adaptive echo cancellation which i do n't know enough about to talk about . phd b: uh - huh . professor f: it just it just to r to remove cross - talk . phd g: um . grad c: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: but , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy phd a: yeah . phd g: i i do n't know what exactly would go into it . phd a: yeah , sure . phd b: so it would be phd g: so the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak phd b: ok . so do sort of what he 's already what he 's trying to do . phd g: right . except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that . phd a: yeah , in another way , phd b: ok , i s i see . phd a: yeah . yeah . phd b: yeah . i see . professor f: yeah , dave dave uh is , um , also gon na be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff , phd g: so . professor f: so we 'll be phd g: and i guess espen ? this is uh is he here too ? professor f: yeah . phd g: may also be working so it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we ca n't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: um , until we can do that kind of processing . and so , once we have some some of yours , phd a: ok . yeah i 'm working on it . phd g: and @ @ we 'll move on . phd b: i think this also ties into one of the things that jane is gon na talk about too . grad d: um , phd g: ok . grad d: i also wanted to say i have done all this chopping up of digits , postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: so i have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . so let 's do that off - line , phd g: oh right . grad d: we do n't need to do it during the meeting . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: right . definitely grad d: and and i have scripts that will extract it out from `` key `` files phd g: uh , and don should grad d: and and do all the naming automatically , phd g: ok . grad c: alright . grad d: so you do n't have to do it by hand . phd g: great . grad c: you 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ? phd g: so that that 's it for the grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: speakers and ok . grad c: not names , but i ds . grad d: yep . yeah , names names in the names to i ds , grad c: ok . grad d: so you phd g: great . grad d: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match . phd g: right . grad c: cool . phd g: so at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth , grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . phd g: and we 're gon na basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your `` m o in one meeting and `` m o - two `` in another meeting and it 's we just need to standardize the grad c: yeah . that was my fault . phd g: um , no it 's it 's professor f: no , i did n't notice that actually . phd g: um , that 's why those comments are s are in there . grad c: yeah . then disregard it then . grad d: yep . so th i now have a script that you can just say basically look up morgan , phd g: so professor f: yeah . phd g: right . ok . grad d: and it will give you his id . phd g: great , great . grad c: ok . grad d: so . um , phd g: terrific . grad d: alright . do we don , you had disk space and storage formats . is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with chuck at some other time ? grad c: um , i had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and i do n't know exactly who to ask . i thought that maybe you would be the the person to talk to . so , is it a lossless compression { comment } when you compress , grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: so grad d: entropy coding . grad c: it just uses entropy coding ? grad d: so . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess my question would be is i just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . um , yeah , which is grad d: and i assume half of it is scratch and half of it is ? grad c: i 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it . grad d: probably , yeah . grad c: but um , professor f: that 's typical , huh . grad c: yeah , i do n't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so grad d: that does n't matter . grad c: but grad d: you can access it from anywhere in icsi . n grad c: ok . alright . how do you do that ? professor f: in fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , { comment } or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen grad d: n grad c: eighteen . phd g: eigh - eighteen . it was a spare that dave had around grad d: slash n slash machine name , slash x a in all likelihood . professor f: oh ok . grad c: oh i see . ok . alright , i did know that . grad d: um , so the the only question is how much of it the distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not . grad c: mm - hmm . right . grad d: so what you wan na do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate . grad c: ok . grad d: so , the stuff that is n't backed up is not a big deal because disks do n't crash very frequently , grad c: right . grad d: as long as you can regenerate it . grad c: right . i mean all of this stuff can be regenerated , phd g: yeah it 's grad c: it 's just a question grad d: then put it all on scratch phd g: well the grad d: because we 're icsi is is bottlenecked by backup . postdoc e: mm - hmm , very good point . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: so we wan na put phd g: well i 'd leave all the all the transcript stuff should n't should be backed up , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but all the waveform { comment } sound files should not be backed up , grad c: yeah , i guess right . phd g: the ones that you write out . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? um grad d: it just depends on your tools . i mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools ca n't take shortened format , i would leave them expanded , grad c: right . grad d: so you do n't have to unshorten them every single time you wan na do anything . grad c: ok . phd g: we can downsample them , grad c: do you think that 'd be ok ? phd g: so . grad c: to downsample them ? phd g: yeah . yeah , we get the same performance . grad c: ok . phd g: i mean the r the front - end on the sri recognizer just downsamples them on the fly , grad c: yeah , i guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques . phd g: so so that 's professor f: i i i 'm sorry phd g: yeah , if professor f: yeah , l i mean over all our data , we we want to not downsample . phd g: fe you 'd you wan na not . ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we 're what we 're doing is we 're writing out i mean , this is just a question . we 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from thilo , or or jane 's transcribers , you know , we we chop it there . professor f: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: and the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth . professor f: yeah . phd g: and those are the ones that we 're storing . grad d: yeah , as i said , since that 's it 's regeneratable , what i would do is take downsample it , phd g: so yeah . grad d: and compress it however you 're e the sri recognizer wants to take it in . phd g: yeah . professor f: ye phd g: so we ca n't shorten them , grad c: right . phd g: but we can downsample them . professor f: yeah , i mean yeah , i 'm sorry . phd g: so . professor f: as yeah , as long as there is a a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , { comment } then , grad c: r yeah . phd g: oh yeah th grad c: yeah those are gon na be kept . phd g: yeah . yeah . that that 's why we need more disk space professor f: uuu phd g: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um professor f: yeah . grad d: right . professor f: then it 's fine . but for for fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on phd g: oh yeah . grad c: right . grad d: yep . phd g: no . we always have the original long ones . professor f: we would like to phd b: so the sri front - end wo n't take a uh an an a large audio file name and then a a list of segments to chop out { comment } from that large audio file ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they actually have to be chopped out already ? phd g: um , it 's better if they 're chopped out , phd b: uh - huh . phd g: and and it it will be yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . you c you can actually move them around . grad d: and that 's the whole point about the naming conventions phd g: uh , you can get rid of grad d: is that you could run all the english speaking , phd g: yeah , it it 's a lot faster . grad d: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers , phd g: right . you can grab everything with the word `` the `` in it , grad d: and all the men , and all the women . yeah . phd g: and it 's that 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and so in principle , yeah , you could do that , phd b: i do n't i do n't think that 's really right . phd g: but it 's but it 's um grad d: `` that 's just not right , man . `` the the point phd g: these are long these are long grad d: so so s for example , what if you wanted to run run all the native speakers . phd g: you know . this is an hour of speech . grad d: right , so if if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . the way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . and so , you know , you just say phd g: we - yeah that 's so that 's part of it grad d: y so you just say you know `` asterisk e asterisk dot wave `` , and you get what you want . phd g: is right . and the other part is just that once they 're written out it it is a lot faster to to process them . grad d: rather than doing seeks through the file . phd g: so . otherwise , you 're just accessing grad d: this is all just temporary access , so i do n't i think it 's all just it 's fine . you know . fine to do it however is convenient . phd g: right . professor f: i mean it just depends how big the file is . if the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks phd g: right . the other thing is that , believe it or not i mean , we have some professor f: but . grad d: yeah and they do n't . two gig ? phd g: so we 're also looking at these in waves like for the alignments and so forth . you ca n't load an hour of speech into x waves . professor f: yeah . phd g: you need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the transcriber program um grad d: yes you can . phd b: yeah , you you can give waves a start and an end time . and middle . phd g: yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into x waves , you 'll be waiting there for phd b: no , i i 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file , phd g: oh phd b: i 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . and it 'll just go and pull out that section . grad d: i th w the transcribers did n't have any problem with that did they jane ? postdoc e: what 's th u w in what respect ? phd g: loading the long phd a: no , with the transcriber tool , it 's no problem . grad d: they loaded they loaded the long long files into x waves . phd g: it takes a very long ti phd a: yeah just to load a transcription postdoc e: in the in mm - hmm . phd a: phd g: right . phd a: takes a long time , phd g: it takes a l very long time . phd a: but not for the wavefile . the wavefile is there immediately . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad d: are you talking about transcriber or x waves ? phd g: huh . phd a: yeah . oh , i 'm tr talking about transcriber . phd g: actually , you 're talking about transcriber , right ? phd a: yeah . grad d: because because i we used x waves to do the digits . postdoc e: it was also true of the digits task which was x waves . grad d: and they were loading the full mixed files then , postdoc e: yeah . very quickly . grad d: and it did n't seem to be any problem . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: huh . well we we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a it - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file , grad d: hmm . seemed really fast . phd g: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um , grad d: well regardless , it 's professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean it 's i i think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two you know , the begin and end times . um , but i think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones . grad d: and , it 's no problem , right ? phd g: yeah , it 's grad d: because it 's not backed up . phd g: yeah . grad d: so we just phd g: it 's it 's just grad d: if we do n't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . you know , it 's not a big deal . postdoc e: you 're right about the backup being a bottleneck . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's good to think towards scratch . phd g: yeah , so these would n't be backed up , the postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yep . phd g: right . grad d: so remind me afterward phd g: and grad d: and i 'll and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff . grad c: ok . alright . i mean , i could just u do a du on it right ? and just see which how much is on each so . grad d: yep . each partition . and you wan na use , either xa or scratch . grad c: ok . grad d: well x question mark , anything starting with x is scratch . grad c: ok . postdoc e: with two two digits . grad d: two digits , right , xa , xb , xc . ok ? professor f: so , @ @ . grad d: jane ? postdoc e: ok . so i got a little print - out here . so three on this side , three on this side . and i stapled them . ok . alright so , first of all , um , there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and and i can tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ { comment } natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . and , um , so , i did a bunch of checks , and the first thing i did was obviously a spell - check . and at that point i discovered certain things like , um , `` accommodate `` with one `` m `` , that kind of thing . and then , in addition to that , i did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things phd b: i 'm i 'm sorry to interrupt postdoc e: yeah ? phd b: you could could i just back up a little bit postdoc e: sure , please , phd b: and postdoc e: yeah , please , please . phd b: so you 're doing these so the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd b: and they do their pass over it . postdoc e: yes . phd b: and then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you , postdoc e: that 's right . phd b: and you begin these sanit these quality checks . postdoc e: exactly . i do these checks . phd b: ok . postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: ok . postdoc e: exactly . yeah . thank you . and so , uh , i do a an exhaustive listing of the forms actually , i will go through this in in order , so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that . grad d: so on the fifth page , seven down postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . exactly ! exactly ! alright so , a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point i pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . and th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . and if not , then that gets checked . then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called `` spoken - forms `` . so there mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . but there 's w and that that 's done with the assumption that pronunciation variants can be handled . so for things like `` and `` , the fact that someone does n't say the `` d `` , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . however , things like `` cuz `` where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons f for those reasons i i kept that separate , and used the convention of using `` cuz `` for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . so `` wan na `` is another one , `` going `` uh , `` gon na `` is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model , to handle . and chuck , you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , did n't you ? did i phd b: i do n't remember . postdoc e: ok . so so it might not have been it might not have been you , phd b: hmm . postdoc e: but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . ok , so after that , let 's see , phd b: so that was part of the spell - check , { comment } or was that that was after the spell - check ? postdoc e: um . well so when i get the exhau so the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: so it gets `` cuz `` and `` wan na `` and that grad d: and then you gloss them ? postdoc e: yeah , mm - hmm . run it through i have a sed you know , so i do sed script saying whenever you see `` gon na `` you know , `` convert it to gon na `` , you know , `` gloss equals quote going - to quote `` , you know . and with all these things being in curly brackets grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so they 're always distinctive . ok , i also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , or anything which i 've classified as an acronym , and a pronounced acronym . and the way i tag ac pronounced acronyms is that i have underscores between the components . so if it 's `` acl `` then it 's `` a `` underscore `` c `` underscore `` l `` . grad d: and so so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? postdoc e: and the th yes . uh - huh , yeah . grad d: whew ! postdoc e: ok , so now . uh and a grad d: we are acronym - loaded . phd g: um , can i ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ? postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , for a word like `` because `` is it that it 's always predictably `` because `` ? i mean , is `` cuz `` always meaning `` because `` ? postdoc e: yes , but not the reverse . so sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting , and if if they actually said `` because `` , then it 's written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does n't even figure into the equation . professor f: but but in our meetings people do n't say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` phd g: beca - because right . { comment } right . grad d: except right there . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: um , so , i guess so , from the point of view of postdoc e: that 's a good point . phd g: the the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` , grad d: well , phd g: and so if we know that `` cuz `` postdoc e: that 's fine . grad d: but they have the gloss . postdoc e: well don has a script . grad c: yeah . phd g: but , we do n't grad d: you have the gloss form so you always replace it . postdoc e: exactly . grad d: if that 's how what you wan na do . postdoc e: uh - huh . and don knows this , grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that grad c: i replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it 's glossed . phd g: s right . but , if it 's ok . grad c: and phd g: but then there are other glosses that we do n't replace , right ? because postdoc e: yes . and that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses , phd g: ok . so , then it 's fine . postdoc e: on the different on the different types of comments , which we 'll which we 'll see in just a second . grad c: right . phd g: ok . postdoc e: so the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . there 're comments of four types . so this is a good time to introduce that . the four types . w and maybe we 'll expand that grad d: um postdoc e: but the but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . one of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned . grad d: can ca postdoc e: another type is , um grad d: so a are we done with acronyms ? cuz i had a question on what what this meant . postdoc e: i 'm still doing the overview . i have n't actually gotten here yet . grad d: oh i 'm sorry . postdoc e: ok so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . uh , then you have if it 's uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that are n't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of `` voc `` . phd a: whew ! postdoc e: and the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization . phd b: so then it just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there . postdoc e: oh yeah , so i e this would grad d: a comment , basically . postdoc e: let 's just take one example . phd b: oh , oh , oh . postdoc e: and then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . they always end . so it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . and then the third type right now , uh , is m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . so it could be something like , you know , `` referring to so - and - so `` , `` talking about such - and - such `` , uh , you know , `` looking at so - and - so `` . phd b: so on the m postdoc e: yeah . phd b: on the middle t so , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . but in the middle two th - it 's not applying to anything , right ? postdoc e: yeah , and this gets substituted here . grad d: they 're impulsive . phd b: ok . postdoc e: huh - uh . no , they 're events . phd b: ok . grad d: well the `` qual `` can be the `` qual `` is applying to the left . postdoc e: they 're actually they have the status of events . phd b: right , i just meant the middle two ones , yeah . grad d: yep . postdoc e: well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to `` laugh `` , there 's another one which is `` while laughing `` , grad d: `` while laughing `` . postdoc e: and that is , uh , i i an argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we have n't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have `` while laughing `` , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . have n't been awfully precise about that , but i have here , now we 're about to get to the to this now , i have frequencies . so you 'll see how often these different things occur . but , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm - hmm `` and `` mm - hmm `` and `` ha `` and `` uh - uh `` and all these different types . and , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been chuck , { comment } about , um about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for `` mm - hmmm `` with three m 's , and it 's transcribed with two m 's , that it might uh , that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because um , i p i personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . so , right now i 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms . grad d: oh good . postdoc e: i i should say grad d: so it 's a small list . postdoc e: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . so , i 'm gon na i 'm gon na i 'm gon na check grad d: that that 's known as `` found data `` . postdoc e: yeah , yeah . acsu - actually yeah . i got it was stored in a place i did n't expect , grad c: it 's like the z zapruder film . postdoc e: so and and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened . professor f: i wan na work with lost data . grad d: yeah . it 's much easier . postdoc e: and this is this 'll be great . so i 'll i 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably . grad d: hmm . postdoc e: and so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . but you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things . grad d: yeah . postdoc e: and i made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you would n't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . and , um grad c: jane , can i ask you a question ? what 's that very last one correspond to ? postdoc e: sure . grad c: i do n't even know how to pronounce that . postdoc e: well , yeah . now that that s only occurs once , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: and i 'm thinking of changing that . phd g: right . grad c: uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ? postdoc e: so - c i have n't listened to it so i do n't know . grad c: like their hair 's on fire ? postdoc e: i have n't heard it actually . i n i need to listen to that one . grad d: ah ! phd a: it 's the castle of ah ! phd g: actually we we gave this to our pronunciation person , grad c: uh , it looks like that . phd g: she 's like , `` i do n't know what that is either `` . so . postdoc e: did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? cuz i have n't heard it . phd g: no , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , were n't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just did n't listen so she did n't know . we just we 're waiting on that just to do the alignments . postdoc e: yeah . yeah i 'm curious to se hear what it is , but i did n't know wan na change it to something else until i knew . grad c: right . phd g: maybe it 's `` argh `` ? postdoc e: well , sss , { comment } you know phd g: grad c: but that 's not really like postdoc e: hhh . grad c: no one really says `` argh , `` you know , postdoc e: phd g: yeah . right , no one say grad c: it 's not professor f: well , you just did . phd b: except for now ! grad c: well , there 's another there 's another word error . grad d: postdoc e: yeah . that 's right . grad d: yes , that 's right . we 're gon na have a big problem when we talk about that . grad c: cha - ching . phd g: ah . phd b: we 're gon na never recognize this meeting . grad d: in monty python you say `` argh `` a lot . postdoc e: ok . grad c: oh yeah ? grad d: so . well , or if you 're a c programmer . grad c: mmm . grad d: you say arg - c and arg - v all the time . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . grad c: that 's true . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah phd g: but it has a different prosody . professor f: arg . grad d: it does . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: arg arg - max , arg - min , yeah . grad d: ah ! postdoc e: uh , phd g: so , jane , what 's the d grad d: maybe he died while dictating . postdoc e: so . phd g: i have one question about the the `` eh `` versus like the `` ah `` and the `` uh `` . postdoc e: that 's partly a nonnative - native thing , phd g: ok . postdoc e: but i have found `` eh `` in native speakers too . phd g: postdoc e: but it 's mostly non - native phd a: h phd b: that 's `` eh `` versus `` ah `` ? phd g: s ok . postdoc e: eh . grad d: eh ? phd g: `` eh , `` yeah right , cuz there were were some speakers that did definite `` eh 's `` postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but right now we phd b: they were the canadians , right ? professor f: canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . phd g: so , it it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real `` eh `` and the one that 's just like `` uh `` or transcribed `` aaa `` postdoc e: exactly . phd g: cuz in like in switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like `` uh `` . grad d: you mean just the single letter `` a `` { comment } as in the particle ? phd a: the transcription or grad d: article . phd g: no , no , i mean like the the `` uh `` , postdoc e: `` uh `` . grad d: oh . phd g: or the `` uh `` , `` eh `` , `` ah `` were all the same . and then , we have this additional non - native version of uh , like `` eeh `` . grad c: all the `` eh `` 's i 've seen have been like that . they 've been like `` eh `` like that have bee has been transcribed to `` eh `` . and sometimes it 's stronger , postdoc e: mm - hmm , that 's right . grad c: like `` eeh `` { comment } which is like closer to `` eh `` . postdoc e: mmm . phd g: right . grad c: but . grad d: i 'm just these poor transcribers , they 're gon na hate this meeting . postdoc e: yeah . grad c: i know . we should go off - line . postdoc e: well , we 're not doing we 're not doing length . professor f: quick thilo , do a do a filled pause for us . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . phd a: ooo { comment } no . phd g: but you 're a native german speaker so it 's not a not a issue for phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's only grad d: them canadians . phd g: onl yeah . no , only if you do n't have lax vowels , i guess . grad d: oh . phd g: right . postdoc e: this makes sense . phd g: so it 's like japanese and spanish postdoc e: yeah i i think you 've uh - huh , yeah . grad d: oh i see . professor f: uh - huh . phd g: and grad d: i did n't get that , postdoc e: that makes sense . grad d: ok . postdoc e: yeah , and so , you know , i mean , th th i have there are some , um , americans who who are using this `` eh `` too , and i have n't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being `` uh 's `` but , uh , i my spot - checking has made me think that we do have `` eh `` in also , um , american e e data represented here . but any case , that 's the this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list , phd g: yeah this is great . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah , it 's good , postdoc e: and this is grad d: yeah . phd g: this is really really helpful . postdoc e: functionally pretty , you know , also it was fascinating , i was listening to some of these , uh , i guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to to do a search for the `` mm - hmm 's `` . and you get `` mm - hmm `` and diff everybody 's doing it . grad d: and just listen to them ? yeah . postdoc e: just i wanted to say i w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a `` mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: performance art , postdoc e: mm - hmm . `` grad d: just extract them all . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's really it 's really fun to listen to . phd b: morgan can make a song out of it . postdoc e: all these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's it 's the same item . it 's very interesting . ok . uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber was n't sure of , grad d: oh i see . postdoc e: and i have n't been able to listen to to to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them grad d: o how about question mark ? postdoc e: cuz it 's the only place where where they 're used . phd a: the question marks , yeah . what are those ? postdoc e: question mark is punctuation . so it they said that @ @ grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: oh . postdoc e: um , `` dc ? `` phd a: ah . grad d: so they so it 's `` plp ? `` postdoc e: exactly . exactly . yeah , so the only well , and i do have a stress marker here . sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um professor f: i 'm sorry , i i got lost here . what - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ? postdoc e: the parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ann , but was n't entirely sure . so i 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no , professor f: ah . postdoc e: and then get rid of the parentheses . phd g: right . postdoc e: but the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain . grad d: yeah , p - make is phd g: yeah i mean cuz they they have no idea , grad d: that 's a good one . that 's correct . phd g: right . if you hear ctpd , i mean , they do pretty well professor f: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: but it 's professor f: i i do n't recognize a lot of these . phd g: you know how are how are they gon na know ? grad c: yeah . grad d: i know ! i i was saying that i think a lot of them are the networks meeting . professor f: i postdoc e: i think that 's true . professor f: maybe . postdoc e: yeah , absolutely . grad d: i see a few . postdoc e: nsa , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: a lot of these are are coming from them . i listened to some of that . grad c: yeah , we do n't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting . grad d: although i see i see plenty of uh postdoc e: yeah . yeah . i agree . grad c: it 's not so bad . phd g: right . postdoc e: and robustness has a fair amount , phd a: yeah . grad c: mmm . postdoc e: but the nsa group is just very very many . phd g: the recognizer , it is funny . kept getting pta for pda . grad d: yeah , that 's pretty close . professor f: yeah . phd g: this is close , right , grad c: that 's not bad . phd g: and the pta was in these , uh , topics about children , postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , anyway . postdoc e: that 's interesting . phd g: is the p - pta working ? postdoc e: right and sometimes , i mean , you see a couple of these that are actually `` ok 's `` so it 's it 's may be that they got to the point where i mean it was low enough understandable understandability that they were n't entirely sure the person said `` ok . `` you know , so it is n't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym , grad c: there 's a lot of `` ok 's `` . postdoc e: but just n needs to be double checked . now we get to the comments . this professor f: the number to the left is the number of incidences ? grad d: count . yep . postdoc e: number of times out of the entire database , professor f: uh - huh . postdoc e: w except for that last thirty minutes i have n't checked yet . professor f: so cts is really big here , grad d: yeah , i wonder what it is . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd a: so what is the difference between `` papers rustling `` and `` rustling papers `` ? professor f: ip , i know what ip is . postdoc e: i 'd have to listen . i i i agree . i w i 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: but , i i 'm a little hesitant to to collapse across categories unless i actually listen to them . phd a: seems so . professor f: ok . grad d: oh i 'm sure we 've said xml more than five times . postdoc e: well , then , at least now . phd a: now it 's at least six times , yeah . professor f: s s six now , yeah . postdoc e: yeah . six . ok well professor f: wh - the self - referential aspect of these these p phd g: i 'm wai grad c: yeah . grad d: yes , it 's very bad . phd g: well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ? grad d: yes . phd g: y no normally you do n't go around saying , `` now you 've said it six times . grad d: yeah { comment } that 's right . phd g: now you 've said `` postdoc e: but did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of `` ok `` ? phd a: seven hundred eighty - five instances . postdoc e: and that 's just without the without punc punctuation . grad c: yeah . grad d: yep . professor f: no , i did n't . yeah . grad d: and that 's an underestimate postdoc e: extra forty one if it 's questioned . phd b: where 's that ? grad d: cuz they 're yep . professor f: so th postdoc e: on the page two of acronyms . grad c: is this after like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of `` ok `` to this ? professor f: yeah . seven hundred eighty . postdoc e: yeah . of `` ok `` , yes . grad c: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . so that 's the single existing convention for `` ok `` . phd b: wait a minute , w s professor f: so now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight . postdoc e: yeah that 's grad c: although , what 's there 's one with a slash after it . that 's kind of disturbing . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know . postdoc e: that 's that 's i looked for that one . phd g: yeah . grad c: anyway . postdoc e: i actually explicitly looked for that one , grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think that , um , i i 'm not exactly sure about that . phd b: was that somewhere where they were gon na say `` new speaker `` or something ? postdoc e: no , i looked for that , but that does n't actually exist . and it may be , i do n't i ca n't explain that . grad c: that 's alright . i 'm just pointing that out . postdoc e: i i it 's the only grad c: there 's postdoc e: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and i think it 's it 's an epiphenomenon . phd g: well there 's not @ @ . grad d: so i 'll just i was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that `` to be `` or `` not to be `` . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: there 's no tilde in front of it , postdoc e: oh that 's cute . phd b: so . postdoc e: that 's funny . yeah . grad d: ok anyways , sorry . postdoc e: ok . grad d: `` try to stay on topic , adam . `` postdoc e: there is th one y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . so now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes . grad d: ok so , um , on some of these quals , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: are they really quals , or are they glosses ? so like there 's a `` qual tcl `` . postdoc e: `` tcl `` . where do you see that ? grad d: uh postdoc e: oh , oh . the reason is because w it was said `` tickle `` . professor f: what 's a qual ? grad d: oh i see , i see . grad c: hmm . grad d: so it 's not gloss . ok , i see . postdoc e: yep . grad c: sh - should n't it be `` qual tickle `` or something ? grad d: it was n't said `` tcl `` . of course . grad c: like it 's not postdoc e: on the in the actual script in the actual transcript , i s i so this this happens in the very first one . grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i actually wrote it as `` tickle `` . grad c: ok . postdoc e: because we they did n't say `` tcl `` , they said `` tickle `` . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and then , following that is `` qual tcl `` . phd g: right . grad c: oh i see . ok . professor f: i f i forget , what 's qual ? postdoc e: qual - qualifier . phd b: it 's just comment about what they said . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: comment . grad c: it 's not something you wan na replace with postdoc e: comment or contextual comment . phd b: so they did n't mean `` tickle `` as in elmo , grad c: but phd a: tickle ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they meant `` tickle `` as in grad d: yeah . phd g: huh . professor f: right . phd g: but at some point i mean , we probably shoul grad d: we 'll probably add it to the language model . phd g: but we should add it to the dictionar grad d: yeah . phd g: no , to the pronunciation model . grad d: what did i say ? phd a: to the language model model . phd g: language , uh grad d: well both . phd b: add what , liz ? grad d: we can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model . phd g: oh lan oh ok - we ok phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of `` tickle `` . grad d: well `` tickle `` was pronounced `` tickle `` . right ? phd a: `` tickle `` is pronounced `` tickle `` ? phd b: what are you saying ? grad d: it 's pronounced the same it 's pronounced the same as the verb . phd g: i 'm sorry ! grad d: so i think it 's the language model that makes it different . phd g: oh , sorry . what i meant is that there should be a pronunciation `` tickle `` for tcl as a word . phd a: yeah . grad d: oh i see . phd g: and that word in the in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: right . right . professor f: right . phd g: yeah you never would put `` tickle `` in the language model in that form , postdoc e: grad d: right . phd g: yeah . right . there 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and phd b: so how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are . phd g: yes . yeah . yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . tcl 's one of them . grad d: and and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously . phd g: um , y yeah . grad d: right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously . grad c: it 's just disturbing . phd g: right . phd b: hmm . phd g: right . we have this there is this thing i was gon na talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the like spelling people 's names and so forth . if we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had deborah tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it , grad d: you can correct it . yeah . phd g: but but we need to make sure we have the mispel if it does n't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: things like that . grad d: these are so funny to read . postdoc e: well , of course now the the tannen corre the spelling c change . phd g: so . postdoc e: uh , that 's what gets i i picked those up in the frequency check . phd g: right . right . so if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's it 's not an issue , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our the dictionary up to date . and then , yeah , in the case of `` tickle `` i guess we would just have a , you know , word `` tcl `` which phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: you add it to the dictionary . phd g: which normally would be an acronym , you know , `` tcl `` grad d: right . phd g: but just has another pronunciation . grad d: yep . postdoc e: `` icsi `` is is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say `` icsi . `` grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , i actually know phd g: oh yeah . postdoc e: they were said as letters . the others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz i have n't been able to go to all the ic icsi things , phd g: right , exactly . postdoc e: and { comment } and until they 've been listened to they stay as `` icsi `` . grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: right . professor f: don and i were just noticing , love this one over on page three , `` vocal vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . `` grad c: that 's great . grad d: it 's this , `` rrre - rrre - rrre `` . it was me . postdoc e: it was ! in fact , it was ! yeah ! grad d: a lot of these are me the the `` beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . `` postdoc e: he he s he said he said get phd a: to head . grad d: that was the i was imitating uh , beeping out postdoc e: yeah , that 's it . professor f: beep . postdoc e: perfect . yeah that 's it . professor f: yeah . phd g: oh there is something spelled out `` beeeeeep `` grad c: um postdoc e: that 's it . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , that 's that 's been changed . phd g: in the old thank you . because he was saying , `` how many e 's do i have to allow for ? `` grad c: you need a lot of grad d: what i meant was `` beep `` . grad c: you need a lot of qualification adam . grad d: i guess so . postdoc e: that 's been changed . so , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in . grad c: subtext . grad d: anyway . postdoc e: s chan brought it down . phd g: right , thanks , yeah . grad d: so they 're vocalization , phd g: right . postdoc e: and those of course get get picked up in the frequency check grad d: glosses . postdoc e: because you see `` beep `` phd g: right . postdoc e: and you know i mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing . phd g: right . right . postdoc e: i have the there 're various things like `` breathe `` versus `` breath `` versus `` inhale `` and , hhh , you know , i do n't know . i i think they do n't have any implications for anything else so it 's like i 'm tempted to leave them for now an and it 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . we can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them . phd g: yeah . professor f: `` sings finale - type song `` grad c: yeah , that was in the first meeting . professor f: that 's that 's good . phd g: yeah . grad d: um , postdoc e: yeah , but i do n't actually remember what it was . but that was eric did that . professor f: yeah . grad d: so on postdoc e: yeah . professor f: tah - dah ! i do n't know . postdoc e: i think maybe something like that . professor f: something like that maybe , yeah . postdoc e: well , that 'd qualify . grad d: on the glosses for numbers , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done . postdoc e: ok . interesting question . grad d: there 's a postdoc e: yes . ok , now first of all ooo - ooo ! very important . grad d: `` ooo - ooo . `` postdoc e: uh chuck chuck led to a refinement here which is to add `` nums `` if these are parts of the read numbers . now you already know i that i had , uh , in places where they had n't transcribed numbers , i put `` numbers `` in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . and , um , d chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . and that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five or three hundred and five times right now which is just well n n `` nums `` by itself grad d: `` nums `` , yeah . postdoc e: which means this is part of the numbers task . i may change it to `` digits `` . i mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ? grad d: yep . postdoc e: have to think about what 's the best for for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , `` numbers `` and `` nums `` are a part of this digits task thing . um , now th then i have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . um , i did n't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . and actually , th um , the reason i b did it this way was because i initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . so you say , `` seve - seventy eight point two `` , or whatever . and there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . you ca n't have the seven and grad d: so what 's to the left of these ? postdoc e: the left is i so example the very first one , grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it would be , spelled out in words , `` point five `` . grad d: ok , that 's what i was asking . right . postdoc e: only it 's spelled out in words . grad d: point five , yeah . postdoc e: so i this is also spelled out in in words . `` point five . `` grad d: good . postdoc e: and then , in here , `` nums `` , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . it comes out as `` nums quote dot five `` . grad d: ok now , the other example is , in the glosses right there , postdoc e: thank you . grad d: `` gloss one one one dash one three zero `` . grad c: right . grad d: what what 's to the left of that ? postdoc e: well now in that case it 's people saying things like `` one one one dash so - and - so `` or they 're saying uh `` two i mean zero `` whatever . grad d: ok . postdoc e: and in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gon na be included in the read digits anyway , phd b: so there will be a `` nums `` tag on those lines ? postdoc e: so i m in the uh there is . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . i 've added that all now too . grad c: there 's a `` numbers `` tag grad d: good . grad c: i 'm sorry i 'm i did n't follow that last thing . phd g: wait . postdoc e: so , so gloss in the same line that would have `` gloss quote one one one dash one thirty `` , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , `` curly bracket nums curly bracket `` . grad c: right . postdoc e: so if you if you did a , uh , a `` grep minus v nums `` phd g: oh , so you could do `` grep minus v nums `` . postdoc e: and you get rid of anything that was read . phd g: so that 's the yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: so there would n't be something like i if somebody said something like , `` boy , i 'm really tired , ok . `` and then started reading that would be on a separate line ? postdoc e: yes . phd g: ok great . cuz i was doing the `` grep minus v `` quick and dirty and looked like that was working ok , postdoc e: mm - hmm . good . phd g: but postdoc e: yep . phd g: great . now why do we what 's the reason for having like the point five have the `` nums `` on it ? is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ? postdoc e: this is more because phd g: or postdoc e: yeah . oh these are all these , the `` nums point `` , this all where they 're saying `` point `` something or other . phd g: these are all like inside the spontaneous postdoc e: and the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . i mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know eh , `` so in the data column five has `` , you know , `` one point five compared to seventy nine point six `` , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . and this is just really a a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said . grad d: label it . phd g: oh ok . postdoc e: so this is where chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in , phd g: i see . postdoc e: where we 're gon na have a master file of the channelized data . um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis . and , um , the implication that that i have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . these will just be things that are generated , grad d: right postdoc e: and e by using scripts . phd g: ok . grad d: master copies of superset . postdoc e: when things change then the the script will cham change but the but there wo n't be stored copies of in different versions of things . grad d: good . phd g: so , i guess i 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of `` nums `` { comment } where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech . phd b: right . right . that would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something . phd g: um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we do n't see the `` point five `` , or or it 's not there , then we phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: a just an and actually for things like `` seven eighths `` , or people do fractions too i guess , you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that , postdoc e: except phd g: or as long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust . postdoc e: well phd g: cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` nums `` string in it . phd b: i suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace nums curly brace `` . postdoc e: well ex - exactly . phd b: i mean that would be the postdoc e: exactly . that was that was my motivation . and i these can be changed , like i said . phd g: yeah . postdoc e: you know , i mean , as i said i was considering changing it to `` digits `` . and , it just i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know . phd b: right . phd g: it would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . and we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . but you 're right , we could do it this way , it it should work . um , phd b: yeah , and it makes it i guess the thing about phd g: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference phd b: yeah . phd g: because one 's in the context of a you know , a transcribed word string , phd b: right . postdoc e: the other thing is you can get really so minute with these things phd g: and so postdoc e: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` . now i i could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ? grad d: hmm . postdoc e: i it 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are and we could always add it later . percent 's easy to detect . point however is is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . and you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying `` well the first point i wan na make is so - and - so `` and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals . phd b: so liz , what does the recognizer do , postdoc e: so . phd b: uh , professor f: hmm . phd b: what does the sri recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` . does it output the word phd g: `` seven point five `` . phd b: right , the word `` seven `` ? grad d: well , the numbers ? phd b: the number `` seven `` ? phd g: the word . phd b: the word `` seven `` , ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: so i 'd so `` i 'd like i 'd like to talk about point five `` . phd g: and and actually , you know the language professor f: yeah . phd g: it 's the same point , actually , the the p you know , the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to 's `` and so there 's no distinction there . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: it 's just just the word `` point `` has yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if even if it 's a actually even like the word `` read `` { comment } and `` read `` those are two different words . they 're spelled the same way , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: and they 're still gon na be transcribed as read . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd g: so , yeah , i i like the idea of having this in there , i just i was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech because i what if we have like `` read letters `` or , i do n't know , grad d: we might wan na just a separate tag that says it 's read . phd g: like `` read something `` like `` read `` grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah , basically . but other than that i it sounds great . grad d: yeah . ok ? are we done ? postdoc e: well i wanted to say also regarding the channelized data , grad d: oh , i guess we 're not done . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that , um , thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was chuc - chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you if you said , `` oh `` and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one grad d: well postdoc e: as for the longer utterances , grad d: we did that for one meeting , right , postdoc e: and grad d: so you have that data do n't you ? phd a: yeah , that 's the training data . postdoc e: and he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: he gave me he did the very nice , he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . and at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . in addition the i 've i have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually . phd a: oh great . postdoc e: so right now , um , i know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and i 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started . phd a: oh great . ok . postdoc e: but if if you know , and i and he 's gon na give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose . phd a: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: because it 's true , i mean , if we could do the the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . and , um . so this is gon na be useful to expand this . phd a: so i i thought we we sh we sh perhaps we should try to to start with those channelized versions just to just to try it . give it give one tr transcriber the the channelized version of of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if if that 's better or if they if they can postdoc e: you mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ? phd a: yeah . yeah . yeah . postdoc e: that 'd be excellent . yeah , that 'd be really great . as it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time uh , aligned . i also wan na tell um , i also wanted to r raise the issue that ok so , there 's this idea we 're gon na have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gon na be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . and actually the master phd b: two or more . two or more different functions . postdoc e: two two or more . and that the master is gon na be the channelized version . phd b: right . postdoc e: so right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . and now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . but i wanted to get all the finished all the checks phd b: yeah , so that has implications for your script . grad c: yeah . so , uh , have those e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? and i know i 've seen @ @ i 've seen they 've been channelized , postdoc e: yes , they have . grad d: all ten hours ? grad c: but postdoc e: except for the missing thirty minutes . grad c: have they uh have they been has the time have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel grad d: great . postdoc e: uh , for for a total of like twenty m f for a total of let 's see , four times total of about an thirty minutes . that 's that 's been the case . grad c: so , postdoc e: and plus the training , whatever you have . grad c: i guess , i mean , i do n't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but i grad d: well it 's just we 're missing tea . grad c: yeah , i know . grad d: so . grad c: no , but i mean my question is like should i wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before i do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the into the our layer of uh transcripts . postdoc e: well , you know the problem the problem is that some some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring are to combine bins that were time bins which were previously separate . and the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off . grad c: right . postdoc e: and so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . and , grad c: ok . no i know i know that adjusting those things are gon na is gon na make it better . postdoc e: so i it 's gon na be a more reliable thing and i 'm not sure grad c: i mean i 'm sure about that , postdoc e: yeah . grad c: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or postdoc e: well partly it depends on how um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time , grad c: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes . grad c: yeah , i do n't doubt it . um , so . phd b: so right now the what you 're doing is you 're taking the uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ? grad c: yeah . i 'm doing it myself . i mean i if the time markings are n't different across channels , like the channelized version really does n't have any more information . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , i was just i mean , originally i had done before like the channelized versions were coming out . phd b: right . right . grad c: um , phd b: so i i th i think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals . grad c: and so it 's a question of like what mm - hmm . mm - hmm . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on . postdoc e: yep . mm - hmm . grad c: right . phd b: um , so postdoc e: yeah , i mean phd b: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated postdoc e: yeah . phd b: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions . grad c: ok . phd b: but the i guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that , grad c: i know . phd b: so , maybe grad c: right . postdoc e: but that phd g: but that that 's not hard . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad c: no . phd g: i i think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription phd b: ok . phd g: so if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you do n't where the word which words moved . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd g: and that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit uh , having to rerun the processing . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: the cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial . grad c: yeah . i mean as long as it can all be done automatically , i mean , then that 's not a concern . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , if i just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem . phd g: right . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: um , so yeah . as long as we 're at that point . and i know exactly like what the steps will work what 's going on , in the editing process , phd b: yeah . grad c: so . ok . postdoc e: so that 's i i mean i could there were other checks that i did , but it 's i think that we 've unless you think there 's anything else , i think that i 've covered it . professor f: yeah . phd b: i ca n't think of any of the other ones . postdoc e: ok . great . professor f: ok . grad d: oop ! man !

the group discussed digits data , recent asr results , the status of transcriptions , and disk space and storage format issues . approximately two hours of digits have been recorded , half of which have been extracted . researchers doing asr are looking into methods for generating a better channel-based segmentation to improve recognition results for close-talking microphone data . transcription checking procedures were reviewed , and efforts to coordinate the channelization and presegmention of data with the tightening of time bins were discussed . the group also talked about downsampling and strategies for coping with low disk space .

summarize what was said about digits form </s> grad d: and we already got the crash out of the way . it did crash , so i feel much better , earlier . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: interesting . hmm . professor f: will you get the door , and ? grad d: ok , so um . professor f: ok . you collected an agenda , huh ? grad d: i did collect an agenda . so i 'm gon na go first . mwa - ha - ha ! it should n't take too long . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . we 've gone once through the set . um , so the only thing i have to do professor f: no there 's only ten . grad d: yeah , that 's right . so i i just have to go through them professor f: well , ok . grad d: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . so we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . i 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . we have about two hours worth . i extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . so i extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the `` key `` file and the transcript files are parsable . some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and i have to go back and fix those . so what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . um , liz professor f: so you think two you think two hours is the is the total that we have ? grad d: yep , yeah . professor f: and you think we th uh , i i did n't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ? grad d: yes , absolutely . professor f: ok . grad d: so it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . i have this web - based speaker form , and i sent mail to everyone who had n't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in . professor f: so the relevance of the speaker form here , s grad d: it 's for labeling the extracted audio files . professor f: oh , ok . grad d: by speaker id and microphone type . professor f: was n't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something . grad d: no , i spoke with jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that we edit out any of the errors anyway . right ? so the there are no errors in the digits , professor f: yeah . grad d: you 'll always read the string correctly . so i ca n't imagine why anyone would care . so the other topic with digits is uh , liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in english . and it just did n't work at all because no one grouped them together . so it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . so in conversations with liz and uh jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . the problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . when i look at this , that first line is `` sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . `` um , and so the question is does anyone care ? um , i 've already spoken with liz and she feels that , correct me if i 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: as opposed to connected digits . um , i think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wan na do training and adaptation and all that other stuff . professor f: yeah um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you would n't like that ? is that correct ? phd g: well , we actually figured out a way to grad d: yeah , the the phd g: the the groupings are randomly generated . professor f: no but , i was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was n't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would n't , uh , go and do numbers so much . you know if it if it 's phd a: uh phd g: i think they may still do it , um , professor f: maybe some , but i probably not so much . phd b: what about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? phd g: and professor f: right ? so if you if if you have uh grad d: six dash one , you mean ? professor f: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one . phd g: i well ok i it might help , i would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping . professor f: that 's what i was asking , yeah . phd g: um , so if that 's your question , professor f: yeah . phd g: but i mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits postdoc e: yeah . phd g: if that 's what people want . i i 'm postdoc e: yeah . phd g: do n't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data , grad d: right . phd g: and that 's always a good thing . grad d: yep . phd g: it 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . they 're better trained than the numbers . grad d: so we could just , uh , put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` . professor f: right . phd g: right . right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: and if people make a mistake we grad d: how about `` o `` versus `` zero `` ? professor f: i mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's it 's it 's - i 'm not worrying about it i mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from ogi . i 'm sorry , digits numbers training that we have from ogi , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . and um . phd g: but it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean for it 's professor f: no , no , i guess what i 'm saying is that grad d: just let them read it how they read it . professor f: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have . phd g: right . well that 's fine with me as long as it 's just that i did n't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits . professor f: yeah . we can go back to the other thing later . phd g: so professor f: i mean we s we we 've we can do this for awhile phd g: ok . professor f: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . do yo i mean , do you want do you want this do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? phd g: ok . professor f: how much of this do you need ? with uh the phd g: it 's actually unclear right now . i just thought well we 're if we 're collec collecting digits , and adam had said we were running out of the ti forms , i thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits professor f: ok . phd g: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gon na do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . so we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general . professor f: ok , well if you pre phd g: but if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one oo `` . and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` o `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` o `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context , professor f: yeah . phd g: and that 's sort of interesting . so i do n't have a specific need cuz if i did i 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but if we can try it grad d: ok so so i can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: right , and you can give an example like , you know , `` six sixty - one would be read as six one `` . grad d: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . and i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words . phd g: and i think people will get it . postdoc e: i 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single . phd g: right , right . postdoc e: the spaces already bias it toward being separated . phd g: it 's just easier to read . postdoc e: and i know i 'm gon na find this easier than words . phd g: right . grad d: oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier . phd g: ok i also had a hard hard time with the words , professor f: yeah . phd g: but then we went back and forth on that . ok , so let 's give that a try grad d: ok . and is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ? professor f: ok . phd g: and grad d: or is that alright ? phd g: i mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading { comment } them . postdoc e: i think that i it 's fine . grad d: ok . postdoc e: i it it to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation phd g: ok . postdoc e: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all . phd g: great . ok . grad d: and i think there are about ten different gouping patterns professor f: let 's try it . phd g: well let 's give it a try . grad d: is n't that right , liz ? that we did . phd g: righ - right , and you just they 're randomly generated and randomly assigned to digits . postdoc e: i did mm - hmm . professor f: so we have postdoc e: go ahead . professor f: sorry , i i was just gon na say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now . and you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then , grad d: yep . professor f: something like twenty twenty to one . which i guess makes makes sense . so if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this . grad d: right . professor f: um , yeah like you say , i think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set 's ok . it 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll we might use use this up , uh , in some sense , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: right . professor f: but but uh postdoc e: yeah , i also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank . grad d: right . postdoc e: hmm ? cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . and i think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally american speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database . grad d: right . i think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing ti - digits probably is n't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different . professor f: yeah . grad d: it 's gon na be very hard to be comparable . postdoc e: except that if you have the stimuli comparable , then it says something about the the contribution of setting professor f: no it 's it 's not the same . postdoc e: and professor f: a little bit , but the other differences are so major . grad d: yeah i mean read versus not . postdoc e: ok . professor f: they 're such major sources of variance that it 's it 's it 's uh postdoc e: what 's an example of a of m some of the other differences ? any other a difference ? professor f: well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one , postdoc e: ok . professor f: you know , it 's just there 's so many things . grad d: well , and not just that , postdoc e: ok . professor f: it 's it and and enunciation . grad d: i mean the uh the corpus itself . i mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and i 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . i mean if i remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that . professor f: ti - digits was ? grad d: i thought so . professor f: i thought i thought it was read . grad d: was it read ? professor f: yeah , i think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be ogi . grad d: oh , i may well be . professor f: yeah , no ti - digits was read in th in read in the studio i believe . grad d: i have n't ever listened to ti - digits . so i do n't really know how it compares . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: but but regardless it 's gon na it 's hard to compare cross - corpus . professor f: but it but it - it 's different people is the is the core thing . grad d: so . postdoc e: ok , fine . professor f: and they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's it 's it 's really pretty different . but i think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you could n't do exact comparisons , it would n't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . uh , you know it 's not phd b: hey liz , what what do the groupings represent ? postdoc e: ok . phd b: you said there 's like ten different groupings ? phd g: right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings . phd b: mm - hmm . are the patterns like are they based on anything or phd g: um , i i just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time . phd b: oh . phd g: and they can have , i mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . in the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . so , there 's between , um well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and i purposely did n't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern . phd b: mmm . phd g: so grad d: and which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly . phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: so unlike the previous one , which i d simply replicated ti - digits , this is generated randomly . phd g: right . phd a: oh ok . phd b: mmm , oh , ok . phd g: but i think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or ti - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: and , i mean so it 's it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . especially for speakers that do n't talk a lot . grad d: yeah . phd g: so um , for adaptation . no , i 'm serious , phd a: yeah . grad d: yeah all we have for some people is digits . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know grad d: oh , you 're not . phd g: not for adaptation , nope . v w we 're not we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and i 'd as soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and i thought `` well , we 're gon na do better on that , grad d: oh i see . phd g: that 's not fair to use `` . grad d: oh yeah that 's true , absolutely . phd a: ok . phd g: but , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . so those speakers who are very quiet , { comment } shy grad d: that would be interesting to see whether that helps . phd g: r right phd b: like adam ? grad d: do you think that would help adapting on yeah . yeah , i have a real problem with that . professor f: yeah . phd g: well , it sh i mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the in the same meeting , grad d: right . same same acoustics , professor f: yeah . phd g: and so you do n't get grad d: same microphone , phd a: yeah . grad d: same channel . phd g: right , and so i still like the idea of having some kind of digit data . grad d: ok . good . professor f: yeah i mean , for the for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , i see it as as as the place that we start . but , th i mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but but uh the truth is i 'm hoping that we we through the the stuff that that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . so . postdoc e: great . phd g: the only thing that we do n't have , i know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we do n't have any overlapping digits . grad d: yeah , we talked about that a couple times . phd g: an - yea i know it 's weird , but um phd a: overlapping digits ! grad d: the the problem i see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load . phd g: alright everybody 's laughing . ok . grad c: dueling digits . grad d: no it 's it 's not stupid , it 's just i mean , try to do it . phd g: i 'm just talkin for the stuff that like dan ellis is gon na try , grad d: i mean , here , let 's try it . phd g: you know , cross - talk cancellation . grad d: you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: let 's try it . phd g: ok . phd a: oh ! phd g: wait oh it these are all the same forms . professor f: sixty - one . phd g: ok { comment } so but grad d: so so you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: no , i 'll p phd g: so you plu you plug your ears . grad d: oh i guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you do n't get the the same effects . phd a: yeah . phd g: well , what i mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people grad d: yeah . phd g: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like dan ellis and and company want to do . grad d: oh i see . phd g: digits are nice and well behaved , i mean grad d: i guess we could try . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . grad d: we could try doing some . phd g: it it would go faster . phd b: parallel . phd g: it would take one around { comment } amount of ti phd b: it 's the p - make of digit reading . grad d: well well ok . well let 's try it . phd g: that 's right . i i mea i 'm i was sort of serious , but i really , i mean , i 'm i do n't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea , professor f: see , y grad d: you do the last line , i 'll do the first line . phd g: so . professor f: ok . grad d: o . { comment } that 's not bad . professor f: no , i can do it . phd b: i could n't understand a single thing you guys were saying . phd g: a and that prosody was great , by the way . postdoc e: i think it was numbers , but i 'm not sure . phd g: it it sort of sounded like a duet , or something . phd a: yeah . phd b: performance art . professor f: alright , let 's try three at once you you pick one in the middle . phd a: the aurora theater . phd g: ok . professor f: go . phd g: i 'm sorry . i 'm mean i think it 's doable , grad d: the poor transcribers phd g: i 'm just grad d: they 're gon na hate us . phd g: so , we we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something . phd a: so pairwise . professor f: oh like a round , yeah , like in a a phd g: like a , phd a: yeah , just pairwise , professor f: yeah . phd g: what do you call it ? phd a: or yeah . grad c: round . grad d: a round . professor f: row , row , row your boat . phd g: li - a r like grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , like that . professor f: ok . phd b: it 's gon na require some coordination . phd g: then it would go like h twice as fast , or a third as fast . postdoc e: you have to have a similar pace . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . professor f: yeah . phd g: i 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wan na work on it we should talk to them . professor f: i do n't think we 're gon na collect vast amounts of data that way , phd g: so . grad d: mmm . professor f: but i think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like dan to play around with , phd g: ok . grad d: i think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad d: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . so . phd g: can try it out . grad d: see see what dan thinks . phd g: if we have nothing if we have no agenda we could do it some week . grad d: yeah , right . professor f: yeah , yeah . spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities . phd g: ok . grad d: i thought this was gon na be fast . postdoc e: c c can i can i have an another another question w about this ? grad d: oh well . postdoc e: so , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . like `` wonderful `` has `` one `` in it and and victor borge had a had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . well , i wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of `` one `` in `` wonderful `` versus `` one `` as a digit being read . professor f: that 's `` two `` bad . yeah . phd g: i 'm all `` four `` it . postdoc e: there you go . grad d: not after i `` eight `` though . professor f: uh , they do n't all work as well , do they ? hmm . what does nine work in ? grad c: nein ! grad d: uh . professor f: uh , grad c: you scream it . grad d: nein ! you have to be german , professor f: oh . in german , phd a: that 's german , yeah . phd b: it 's great for the germans . professor f: yeah . grad d: yeah . phd g: oh , oh ! postdoc e: nein . professor f: that 's right ! phd a: yeah . grad d: oh ! grad c: it only sounds w good when you scream it , though . so . professor f: i think everybody 's a little punchy here today . postdoc e: well , i mean , i just wanted to offer that as a possible task professor f: yes . postdoc e: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and i would n't take the inflated version . so he talks about the woman being `` two - derful `` , and and a but , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read . professor f: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i do n't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers . grad d: i think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh timit . professor f: well i do n't know . well i think the question is what the research is , so i mean , i presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here . grad d: hmm . professor f: yeah ok . phd g: right , yeah . professor f: so if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the the the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits a a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but i think someone would have to express interest in that . postdoc e: i see . ok . professor f: i think , to i mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance . postdoc e: ok , thank you . grad d: ok , are we done with digits ? postdoc e: huh . grad d: um , we have asr results from liz , transcript status from jane , and disk space and storage formats from don . does do we have any prefer preference on which way we wan na we wan na go ? phd g: well i was actually gon na skip the asr results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: since i think that 's more important to moving forward , but i mean morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of asr results because we did n't do anything fancy , but i think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . and then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the on the close - talking mikes . phd a: so these grad d: um , why do n't you , if you have a hard copy , why do n't you email it to the list . phd g: so , that 's about the summary but this is morgan has this paper . phd a: yeah , yeah . grad d: oh it 's in the paper . professor f: yeah , so it 's the same thing ? phd g: i mean he he professor f: it 's the same thing i mailed to every everybody that w where it was , phd g: it it 's that paper . grad d: ok . phd g: yeah , yeah . grad d: ok then , it 's already been mailed . phd g: so , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that professor f: yeah . phd g: and it 's let 's see , th i guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad . grad d: horrible ? phd g: and it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech . phd a: so , your your asr results were run on the channels synchronized , phd g: yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time , phd a: ok . ok . ok . phd g: um but as we i mean i wanted to here more about the transcription . if we can get the channel asynchronous or the phd a: yeah . phd g: the closer t that would be very interesting for us phd b: so if phd g: because we professor f: yeah , that 's that 's why i only used the part from use phd a: yeah . professor f: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels phd a: yeah . phd g: right . that 's phd a: yeah sure . yeah . professor f: or mixed channel phd a: yeah . professor f: rather mixed signal . phd b: so if there was a segment of speech this long phd g: cuz phd a: yeah . phd b: and oh and someone said `` oh , `` the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ? grad d: and someone said `` oh `` in the front in the middle . phd a: there were several speakers in it , yeah . phd g: that 's right . in fact i i pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wan na u use them in your talk of phd b: that 's why there 's so many insertion errors ? grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: chuck on the lapel , so chuck wore the lapel three out of four times . grad c: mmm . grad d: i noticed that chuck was wearing the lapel a lot . phd b: early on , yeah . phd g: um , yeah , and i wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was ok . i mean i still and i do n't know why . i 'm but um , grad d: probably how you wear it wore it i would guess . phd g: for you it was or who was next to me or something like that . grad c: yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it . phd a: yeah . phd g: right , but when chuck wore the lapel and morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion insertions are n't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate . grad d: uh - huh . phd a: yeah . phd g: and that 's that 's where the problems come in . so i this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to to show it . grad d: right . phd g: and also i just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh andreas and i called up dan ellis who 's still stuck in switzerland , and we were gon na ask him if if there 're you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . not that we were gon na do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done . grad d: and he said , `` lots lots lots lots . `` phd g: and he we 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap . phd a: yep . phd g: and he 's gon na look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do phd b: so phd g: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature . phd b: so so the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking { comment } based on the other peopl phd g: right . or who 's at any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker . phd a: so yeah phd b: i thought we were just gon na move the boundaries in . phd a: yeah , should it phd g: so . grad d: well that 's with the hand stuff . phd g: so there 's like grad d: but how would you do that automatically ? phd g: well ther there 's phd a: uh , i 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation phd b: right . phd a: and it seems to work pretty well to to get rid of those those overlaps , grad d: i mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do . professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad d: so . phd g: yeah . exactly , so it 's it 's a phd b: so why do you want to do echo cancellation ? phd g: um , it would be techniques used from adaptive adaptive echo cancellation which i do n't know enough about to talk about . phd b: uh - huh . professor f: it just it just to r to remove cross - talk . phd g: um . grad c: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: but , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy phd a: yeah . phd g: i i do n't know what exactly would go into it . phd a: yeah , sure . phd b: so it would be phd g: so the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak phd b: ok . so do sort of what he 's already what he 's trying to do . phd g: right . except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that . phd a: yeah , in another way , phd b: ok , i s i see . phd a: yeah . yeah . phd b: yeah . i see . professor f: yeah , dave dave uh is , um , also gon na be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff , phd g: so . professor f: so we 'll be phd g: and i guess espen ? this is uh is he here too ? professor f: yeah . phd g: may also be working so it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we ca n't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: um , until we can do that kind of processing . and so , once we have some some of yours , phd a: ok . yeah i 'm working on it . phd g: and @ @ we 'll move on . phd b: i think this also ties into one of the things that jane is gon na talk about too . grad d: um , phd g: ok . grad d: i also wanted to say i have done all this chopping up of digits , postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: so i have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . so let 's do that off - line , phd g: oh right . grad d: we do n't need to do it during the meeting . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: right . definitely grad d: and and i have scripts that will extract it out from `` key `` files phd g: uh , and don should grad d: and and do all the naming automatically , phd g: ok . grad c: alright . grad d: so you do n't have to do it by hand . phd g: great . grad c: you 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ? phd g: so that that 's it for the grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: speakers and ok . grad c: not names , but i ds . grad d: yep . yeah , names names in the names to i ds , grad c: ok . grad d: so you phd g: great . grad d: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match . phd g: right . grad c: cool . phd g: so at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth , grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . phd g: and we 're gon na basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your `` m o in one meeting and `` m o - two `` in another meeting and it 's we just need to standardize the grad c: yeah . that was my fault . phd g: um , no it 's it 's professor f: no , i did n't notice that actually . phd g: um , that 's why those comments are s are in there . grad c: yeah . then disregard it then . grad d: yep . so th i now have a script that you can just say basically look up morgan , phd g: so professor f: yeah . phd g: right . ok . grad d: and it will give you his id . phd g: great , great . grad c: ok . grad d: so . um , phd g: terrific . grad d: alright . do we don , you had disk space and storage formats . is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with chuck at some other time ? grad c: um , i had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and i do n't know exactly who to ask . i thought that maybe you would be the the person to talk to . so , is it a lossless compression { comment } when you compress , grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: so grad d: entropy coding . grad c: it just uses entropy coding ? grad d: so . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess my question would be is i just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . um , yeah , which is grad d: and i assume half of it is scratch and half of it is ? grad c: i 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it . grad d: probably , yeah . grad c: but um , professor f: that 's typical , huh . grad c: yeah , i do n't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so grad d: that does n't matter . grad c: but grad d: you can access it from anywhere in icsi . n grad c: ok . alright . how do you do that ? professor f: in fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , { comment } or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen grad d: n grad c: eighteen . phd g: eigh - eighteen . it was a spare that dave had around grad d: slash n slash machine name , slash x a in all likelihood . professor f: oh ok . grad c: oh i see . ok . alright , i did know that . grad d: um , so the the only question is how much of it the distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not . grad c: mm - hmm . right . grad d: so what you wan na do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate . grad c: ok . grad d: so , the stuff that is n't backed up is not a big deal because disks do n't crash very frequently , grad c: right . grad d: as long as you can regenerate it . grad c: right . i mean all of this stuff can be regenerated , phd g: yeah it 's grad c: it 's just a question grad d: then put it all on scratch phd g: well the grad d: because we 're icsi is is bottlenecked by backup . postdoc e: mm - hmm , very good point . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: so we wan na put phd g: well i 'd leave all the all the transcript stuff should n't should be backed up , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but all the waveform { comment } sound files should not be backed up , grad c: yeah , i guess right . phd g: the ones that you write out . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? um grad d: it just depends on your tools . i mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools ca n't take shortened format , i would leave them expanded , grad c: right . grad d: so you do n't have to unshorten them every single time you wan na do anything . grad c: ok . phd g: we can downsample them , grad c: do you think that 'd be ok ? phd g: so . grad c: to downsample them ? phd g: yeah . yeah , we get the same performance . grad c: ok . phd g: i mean the r the front - end on the sri recognizer just downsamples them on the fly , grad c: yeah , i guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques . phd g: so so that 's professor f: i i i 'm sorry phd g: yeah , if professor f: yeah , l i mean over all our data , we we want to not downsample . phd g: fe you 'd you wan na not . ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we 're what we 're doing is we 're writing out i mean , this is just a question . we 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from thilo , or or jane 's transcribers , you know , we we chop it there . professor f: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: and the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth . professor f: yeah . phd g: and those are the ones that we 're storing . grad d: yeah , as i said , since that 's it 's regeneratable , what i would do is take downsample it , phd g: so yeah . grad d: and compress it however you 're e the sri recognizer wants to take it in . phd g: yeah . professor f: ye phd g: so we ca n't shorten them , grad c: right . phd g: but we can downsample them . professor f: yeah , i mean yeah , i 'm sorry . phd g: so . professor f: as yeah , as long as there is a a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , { comment } then , grad c: r yeah . phd g: oh yeah th grad c: yeah those are gon na be kept . phd g: yeah . yeah . that that 's why we need more disk space professor f: uuu phd g: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um professor f: yeah . grad d: right . professor f: then it 's fine . but for for fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on phd g: oh yeah . grad c: right . grad d: yep . phd g: no . we always have the original long ones . professor f: we would like to phd b: so the sri front - end wo n't take a uh an an a large audio file name and then a a list of segments to chop out { comment } from that large audio file ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they actually have to be chopped out already ? phd g: um , it 's better if they 're chopped out , phd b: uh - huh . phd g: and and it it will be yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . you c you can actually move them around . grad d: and that 's the whole point about the naming conventions phd g: uh , you can get rid of grad d: is that you could run all the english speaking , phd g: yeah , it it 's a lot faster . grad d: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers , phd g: right . you can grab everything with the word `` the `` in it , grad d: and all the men , and all the women . yeah . phd g: and it 's that 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and so in principle , yeah , you could do that , phd b: i do n't i do n't think that 's really right . phd g: but it 's but it 's um grad d: `` that 's just not right , man . `` the the point phd g: these are long these are long grad d: so so s for example , what if you wanted to run run all the native speakers . phd g: you know . this is an hour of speech . grad d: right , so if if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . the way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . and so , you know , you just say phd g: we - yeah that 's so that 's part of it grad d: y so you just say you know `` asterisk e asterisk dot wave `` , and you get what you want . phd g: is right . and the other part is just that once they 're written out it it is a lot faster to to process them . grad d: rather than doing seeks through the file . phd g: so . otherwise , you 're just accessing grad d: this is all just temporary access , so i do n't i think it 's all just it 's fine . you know . fine to do it however is convenient . phd g: right . professor f: i mean it just depends how big the file is . if the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks phd g: right . the other thing is that , believe it or not i mean , we have some professor f: but . grad d: yeah and they do n't . two gig ? phd g: so we 're also looking at these in waves like for the alignments and so forth . you ca n't load an hour of speech into x waves . professor f: yeah . phd g: you need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the transcriber program um grad d: yes you can . phd b: yeah , you you can give waves a start and an end time . and middle . phd g: yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into x waves , you 'll be waiting there for phd b: no , i i 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file , phd g: oh phd b: i 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . and it 'll just go and pull out that section . grad d: i th w the transcribers did n't have any problem with that did they jane ? postdoc e: what 's th u w in what respect ? phd g: loading the long phd a: no , with the transcriber tool , it 's no problem . grad d: they loaded they loaded the long long files into x waves . phd g: it takes a very long ti phd a: yeah just to load a transcription postdoc e: in the in mm - hmm . phd a: phd g: right . phd a: takes a long time , phd g: it takes a l very long time . phd a: but not for the wavefile . the wavefile is there immediately . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad d: are you talking about transcriber or x waves ? phd g: huh . phd a: yeah . oh , i 'm tr talking about transcriber . phd g: actually , you 're talking about transcriber , right ? phd a: yeah . grad d: because because i we used x waves to do the digits . postdoc e: it was also true of the digits task which was x waves . grad d: and they were loading the full mixed files then , postdoc e: yeah . very quickly . grad d: and it did n't seem to be any problem . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: huh . well we we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a it - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file , grad d: hmm . seemed really fast . phd g: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um , grad d: well regardless , it 's professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean it 's i i think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two you know , the begin and end times . um , but i think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones . grad d: and , it 's no problem , right ? phd g: yeah , it 's grad d: because it 's not backed up . phd g: yeah . grad d: so we just phd g: it 's it 's just grad d: if we do n't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . you know , it 's not a big deal . postdoc e: you 're right about the backup being a bottleneck . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's good to think towards scratch . phd g: yeah , so these would n't be backed up , the postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yep . phd g: right . grad d: so remind me afterward phd g: and grad d: and i 'll and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff . grad c: ok . alright . i mean , i could just u do a du on it right ? and just see which how much is on each so . grad d: yep . each partition . and you wan na use , either xa or scratch . grad c: ok . grad d: well x question mark , anything starting with x is scratch . grad c: ok . postdoc e: with two two digits . grad d: two digits , right , xa , xb , xc . ok ? professor f: so , @ @ . grad d: jane ? postdoc e: ok . so i got a little print - out here . so three on this side , three on this side . and i stapled them . ok . alright so , first of all , um , there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and and i can tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ { comment } natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . and , um , so , i did a bunch of checks , and the first thing i did was obviously a spell - check . and at that point i discovered certain things like , um , `` accommodate `` with one `` m `` , that kind of thing . and then , in addition to that , i did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things phd b: i 'm i 'm sorry to interrupt postdoc e: yeah ? phd b: you could could i just back up a little bit postdoc e: sure , please , phd b: and postdoc e: yeah , please , please . phd b: so you 're doing these so the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd b: and they do their pass over it . postdoc e: yes . phd b: and then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you , postdoc e: that 's right . phd b: and you begin these sanit these quality checks . postdoc e: exactly . i do these checks . phd b: ok . postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: ok . postdoc e: exactly . yeah . thank you . and so , uh , i do a an exhaustive listing of the forms actually , i will go through this in in order , so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that . grad d: so on the fifth page , seven down postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . exactly ! exactly ! alright so , a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point i pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . and th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . and if not , then that gets checked . then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called `` spoken - forms `` . so there mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . but there 's w and that that 's done with the assumption that pronunciation variants can be handled . so for things like `` and `` , the fact that someone does n't say the `` d `` , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . however , things like `` cuz `` where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons f for those reasons i i kept that separate , and used the convention of using `` cuz `` for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . so `` wan na `` is another one , `` going `` uh , `` gon na `` is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model , to handle . and chuck , you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , did n't you ? did i phd b: i do n't remember . postdoc e: ok . so so it might not have been it might not have been you , phd b: hmm . postdoc e: but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . ok , so after that , let 's see , phd b: so that was part of the spell - check , { comment } or was that that was after the spell - check ? postdoc e: um . well so when i get the exhau so the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: so it gets `` cuz `` and `` wan na `` and that grad d: and then you gloss them ? postdoc e: yeah , mm - hmm . run it through i have a sed you know , so i do sed script saying whenever you see `` gon na `` you know , `` convert it to gon na `` , you know , `` gloss equals quote going - to quote `` , you know . and with all these things being in curly brackets grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so they 're always distinctive . ok , i also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , or anything which i 've classified as an acronym , and a pronounced acronym . and the way i tag ac pronounced acronyms is that i have underscores between the components . so if it 's `` acl `` then it 's `` a `` underscore `` c `` underscore `` l `` . grad d: and so so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? postdoc e: and the th yes . uh - huh , yeah . grad d: whew ! postdoc e: ok , so now . uh and a grad d: we are acronym - loaded . phd g: um , can i ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ? postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , for a word like `` because `` is it that it 's always predictably `` because `` ? i mean , is `` cuz `` always meaning `` because `` ? postdoc e: yes , but not the reverse . so sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting , and if if they actually said `` because `` , then it 's written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does n't even figure into the equation . professor f: but but in our meetings people do n't say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` phd g: beca - because right . { comment } right . grad d: except right there . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: um , so , i guess so , from the point of view of postdoc e: that 's a good point . phd g: the the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` , grad d: well , phd g: and so if we know that `` cuz `` postdoc e: that 's fine . grad d: but they have the gloss . postdoc e: well don has a script . grad c: yeah . phd g: but , we do n't grad d: you have the gloss form so you always replace it . postdoc e: exactly . grad d: if that 's how what you wan na do . postdoc e: uh - huh . and don knows this , grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that grad c: i replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it 's glossed . phd g: s right . but , if it 's ok . grad c: and phd g: but then there are other glosses that we do n't replace , right ? because postdoc e: yes . and that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses , phd g: ok . so , then it 's fine . postdoc e: on the different on the different types of comments , which we 'll which we 'll see in just a second . grad c: right . phd g: ok . postdoc e: so the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . there 're comments of four types . so this is a good time to introduce that . the four types . w and maybe we 'll expand that grad d: um postdoc e: but the but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . one of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned . grad d: can ca postdoc e: another type is , um grad d: so a are we done with acronyms ? cuz i had a question on what what this meant . postdoc e: i 'm still doing the overview . i have n't actually gotten here yet . grad d: oh i 'm sorry . postdoc e: ok so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . uh , then you have if it 's uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that are n't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of `` voc `` . phd a: whew ! postdoc e: and the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization . phd b: so then it just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there . postdoc e: oh yeah , so i e this would grad d: a comment , basically . postdoc e: let 's just take one example . phd b: oh , oh , oh . postdoc e: and then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . they always end . so it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . and then the third type right now , uh , is m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . so it could be something like , you know , `` referring to so - and - so `` , `` talking about such - and - such `` , uh , you know , `` looking at so - and - so `` . phd b: so on the m postdoc e: yeah . phd b: on the middle t so , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . but in the middle two th - it 's not applying to anything , right ? postdoc e: yeah , and this gets substituted here . grad d: they 're impulsive . phd b: ok . postdoc e: huh - uh . no , they 're events . phd b: ok . grad d: well the `` qual `` can be the `` qual `` is applying to the left . postdoc e: they 're actually they have the status of events . phd b: right , i just meant the middle two ones , yeah . grad d: yep . postdoc e: well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to `` laugh `` , there 's another one which is `` while laughing `` , grad d: `` while laughing `` . postdoc e: and that is , uh , i i an argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we have n't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have `` while laughing `` , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . have n't been awfully precise about that , but i have here , now we 're about to get to the to this now , i have frequencies . so you 'll see how often these different things occur . but , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm - hmm `` and `` mm - hmm `` and `` ha `` and `` uh - uh `` and all these different types . and , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been chuck , { comment } about , um about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for `` mm - hmmm `` with three m 's , and it 's transcribed with two m 's , that it might uh , that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because um , i p i personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . so , right now i 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms . grad d: oh good . postdoc e: i i should say grad d: so it 's a small list . postdoc e: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . so , i 'm gon na i 'm gon na i 'm gon na check grad d: that that 's known as `` found data `` . postdoc e: yeah , yeah . acsu - actually yeah . i got it was stored in a place i did n't expect , grad c: it 's like the z zapruder film . postdoc e: so and and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened . professor f: i wan na work with lost data . grad d: yeah . it 's much easier . postdoc e: and this is this 'll be great . so i 'll i 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably . grad d: hmm . postdoc e: and so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . but you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things . grad d: yeah . postdoc e: and i made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you would n't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . and , um grad c: jane , can i ask you a question ? what 's that very last one correspond to ? postdoc e: sure . grad c: i do n't even know how to pronounce that . postdoc e: well , yeah . now that that s only occurs once , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: and i 'm thinking of changing that . phd g: right . grad c: uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ? postdoc e: so - c i have n't listened to it so i do n't know . grad c: like their hair 's on fire ? postdoc e: i have n't heard it actually . i n i need to listen to that one . grad d: ah ! phd a: it 's the castle of ah ! phd g: actually we we gave this to our pronunciation person , grad c: uh , it looks like that . phd g: she 's like , `` i do n't know what that is either `` . so . postdoc e: did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? cuz i have n't heard it . phd g: no , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , were n't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just did n't listen so she did n't know . we just we 're waiting on that just to do the alignments . postdoc e: yeah . yeah i 'm curious to se hear what it is , but i did n't know wan na change it to something else until i knew . grad c: right . phd g: maybe it 's `` argh `` ? postdoc e: well , sss , { comment } you know phd g: grad c: but that 's not really like postdoc e: hhh . grad c: no one really says `` argh , `` you know , postdoc e: phd g: yeah . right , no one say grad c: it 's not professor f: well , you just did . phd b: except for now ! grad c: well , there 's another there 's another word error . grad d: postdoc e: yeah . that 's right . grad d: yes , that 's right . we 're gon na have a big problem when we talk about that . grad c: cha - ching . phd g: ah . phd b: we 're gon na never recognize this meeting . grad d: in monty python you say `` argh `` a lot . postdoc e: ok . grad c: oh yeah ? grad d: so . well , or if you 're a c programmer . grad c: mmm . grad d: you say arg - c and arg - v all the time . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . grad c: that 's true . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah phd g: but it has a different prosody . professor f: arg . grad d: it does . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: arg arg - max , arg - min , yeah . grad d: ah ! postdoc e: uh , phd g: so , jane , what 's the d grad d: maybe he died while dictating . postdoc e: so . phd g: i have one question about the the `` eh `` versus like the `` ah `` and the `` uh `` . postdoc e: that 's partly a nonnative - native thing , phd g: ok . postdoc e: but i have found `` eh `` in native speakers too . phd g: postdoc e: but it 's mostly non - native phd a: h phd b: that 's `` eh `` versus `` ah `` ? phd g: s ok . postdoc e: eh . grad d: eh ? phd g: `` eh , `` yeah right , cuz there were were some speakers that did definite `` eh 's `` postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but right now we phd b: they were the canadians , right ? professor f: canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . phd g: so , it it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real `` eh `` and the one that 's just like `` uh `` or transcribed `` aaa `` postdoc e: exactly . phd g: cuz in like in switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like `` uh `` . grad d: you mean just the single letter `` a `` { comment } as in the particle ? phd a: the transcription or grad d: article . phd g: no , no , i mean like the the `` uh `` , postdoc e: `` uh `` . grad d: oh . phd g: or the `` uh `` , `` eh `` , `` ah `` were all the same . and then , we have this additional non - native version of uh , like `` eeh `` . grad c: all the `` eh `` 's i 've seen have been like that . they 've been like `` eh `` like that have bee has been transcribed to `` eh `` . and sometimes it 's stronger , postdoc e: mm - hmm , that 's right . grad c: like `` eeh `` { comment } which is like closer to `` eh `` . postdoc e: mmm . phd g: right . grad c: but . grad d: i 'm just these poor transcribers , they 're gon na hate this meeting . postdoc e: yeah . grad c: i know . we should go off - line . postdoc e: well , we 're not doing we 're not doing length . professor f: quick thilo , do a do a filled pause for us . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . phd a: ooo { comment } no . phd g: but you 're a native german speaker so it 's not a not a issue for phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's only grad d: them canadians . phd g: onl yeah . no , only if you do n't have lax vowels , i guess . grad d: oh . phd g: right . postdoc e: this makes sense . phd g: so it 's like japanese and spanish postdoc e: yeah i i think you 've uh - huh , yeah . grad d: oh i see . professor f: uh - huh . phd g: and grad d: i did n't get that , postdoc e: that makes sense . grad d: ok . postdoc e: yeah , and so , you know , i mean , th th i have there are some , um , americans who who are using this `` eh `` too , and i have n't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being `` uh 's `` but , uh , i my spot - checking has made me think that we do have `` eh `` in also , um , american e e data represented here . but any case , that 's the this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list , phd g: yeah this is great . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah , it 's good , postdoc e: and this is grad d: yeah . phd g: this is really really helpful . postdoc e: functionally pretty , you know , also it was fascinating , i was listening to some of these , uh , i guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to to do a search for the `` mm - hmm 's `` . and you get `` mm - hmm `` and diff everybody 's doing it . grad d: and just listen to them ? yeah . postdoc e: just i wanted to say i w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a `` mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: performance art , postdoc e: mm - hmm . `` grad d: just extract them all . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's really it 's really fun to listen to . phd b: morgan can make a song out of it . postdoc e: all these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's it 's the same item . it 's very interesting . ok . uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber was n't sure of , grad d: oh i see . postdoc e: and i have n't been able to listen to to to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them grad d: o how about question mark ? postdoc e: cuz it 's the only place where where they 're used . phd a: the question marks , yeah . what are those ? postdoc e: question mark is punctuation . so it they said that @ @ grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: oh . postdoc e: um , `` dc ? `` phd a: ah . grad d: so they so it 's `` plp ? `` postdoc e: exactly . exactly . yeah , so the only well , and i do have a stress marker here . sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um professor f: i 'm sorry , i i got lost here . what - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ? postdoc e: the parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ann , but was n't entirely sure . so i 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no , professor f: ah . postdoc e: and then get rid of the parentheses . phd g: right . postdoc e: but the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain . grad d: yeah , p - make is phd g: yeah i mean cuz they they have no idea , grad d: that 's a good one . that 's correct . phd g: right . if you hear ctpd , i mean , they do pretty well professor f: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: but it 's professor f: i i do n't recognize a lot of these . phd g: you know how are how are they gon na know ? grad c: yeah . grad d: i know ! i i was saying that i think a lot of them are the networks meeting . professor f: i postdoc e: i think that 's true . professor f: maybe . postdoc e: yeah , absolutely . grad d: i see a few . postdoc e: nsa , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: a lot of these are are coming from them . i listened to some of that . grad c: yeah , we do n't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting . grad d: although i see i see plenty of uh postdoc e: yeah . yeah . i agree . grad c: it 's not so bad . phd g: right . postdoc e: and robustness has a fair amount , phd a: yeah . grad c: mmm . postdoc e: but the nsa group is just very very many . phd g: the recognizer , it is funny . kept getting pta for pda . grad d: yeah , that 's pretty close . professor f: yeah . phd g: this is close , right , grad c: that 's not bad . phd g: and the pta was in these , uh , topics about children , postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , anyway . postdoc e: that 's interesting . phd g: is the p - pta working ? postdoc e: right and sometimes , i mean , you see a couple of these that are actually `` ok 's `` so it 's it 's may be that they got to the point where i mean it was low enough understandable understandability that they were n't entirely sure the person said `` ok . `` you know , so it is n't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym , grad c: there 's a lot of `` ok 's `` . postdoc e: but just n needs to be double checked . now we get to the comments . this professor f: the number to the left is the number of incidences ? grad d: count . yep . postdoc e: number of times out of the entire database , professor f: uh - huh . postdoc e: w except for that last thirty minutes i have n't checked yet . professor f: so cts is really big here , grad d: yeah , i wonder what it is . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd a: so what is the difference between `` papers rustling `` and `` rustling papers `` ? professor f: ip , i know what ip is . postdoc e: i 'd have to listen . i i i agree . i w i 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: but , i i 'm a little hesitant to to collapse across categories unless i actually listen to them . phd a: seems so . professor f: ok . grad d: oh i 'm sure we 've said xml more than five times . postdoc e: well , then , at least now . phd a: now it 's at least six times , yeah . professor f: s s six now , yeah . postdoc e: yeah . six . ok well professor f: wh - the self - referential aspect of these these p phd g: i 'm wai grad c: yeah . grad d: yes , it 's very bad . phd g: well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ? grad d: yes . phd g: y no normally you do n't go around saying , `` now you 've said it six times . grad d: yeah { comment } that 's right . phd g: now you 've said `` postdoc e: but did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of `` ok `` ? phd a: seven hundred eighty - five instances . postdoc e: and that 's just without the without punc punctuation . grad c: yeah . grad d: yep . professor f: no , i did n't . yeah . grad d: and that 's an underestimate postdoc e: extra forty one if it 's questioned . phd b: where 's that ? grad d: cuz they 're yep . professor f: so th postdoc e: on the page two of acronyms . grad c: is this after like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of `` ok `` to this ? professor f: yeah . seven hundred eighty . postdoc e: yeah . of `` ok `` , yes . grad c: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . so that 's the single existing convention for `` ok `` . phd b: wait a minute , w s professor f: so now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight . postdoc e: yeah that 's grad c: although , what 's there 's one with a slash after it . that 's kind of disturbing . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know . postdoc e: that 's that 's i looked for that one . phd g: yeah . grad c: anyway . postdoc e: i actually explicitly looked for that one , grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think that , um , i i 'm not exactly sure about that . phd b: was that somewhere where they were gon na say `` new speaker `` or something ? postdoc e: no , i looked for that , but that does n't actually exist . and it may be , i do n't i ca n't explain that . grad c: that 's alright . i 'm just pointing that out . postdoc e: i i it 's the only grad c: there 's postdoc e: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and i think it 's it 's an epiphenomenon . phd g: well there 's not @ @ . grad d: so i 'll just i was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that `` to be `` or `` not to be `` . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: there 's no tilde in front of it , postdoc e: oh that 's cute . phd b: so . postdoc e: that 's funny . yeah . grad d: ok anyways , sorry . postdoc e: ok . grad d: `` try to stay on topic , adam . `` postdoc e: there is th one y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . so now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes . grad d: ok so , um , on some of these quals , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: are they really quals , or are they glosses ? so like there 's a `` qual tcl `` . postdoc e: `` tcl `` . where do you see that ? grad d: uh postdoc e: oh , oh . the reason is because w it was said `` tickle `` . professor f: what 's a qual ? grad d: oh i see , i see . grad c: hmm . grad d: so it 's not gloss . ok , i see . postdoc e: yep . grad c: sh - should n't it be `` qual tickle `` or something ? grad d: it was n't said `` tcl `` . of course . grad c: like it 's not postdoc e: on the in the actual script in the actual transcript , i s i so this this happens in the very first one . grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i actually wrote it as `` tickle `` . grad c: ok . postdoc e: because we they did n't say `` tcl `` , they said `` tickle `` . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and then , following that is `` qual tcl `` . phd g: right . grad c: oh i see . ok . professor f: i f i forget , what 's qual ? postdoc e: qual - qualifier . phd b: it 's just comment about what they said . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: comment . grad c: it 's not something you wan na replace with postdoc e: comment or contextual comment . phd b: so they did n't mean `` tickle `` as in elmo , grad c: but phd a: tickle ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they meant `` tickle `` as in grad d: yeah . phd g: huh . professor f: right . phd g: but at some point i mean , we probably shoul grad d: we 'll probably add it to the language model . phd g: but we should add it to the dictionar grad d: yeah . phd g: no , to the pronunciation model . grad d: what did i say ? phd a: to the language model model . phd g: language , uh grad d: well both . phd b: add what , liz ? grad d: we can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model . phd g: oh lan oh ok - we ok phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of `` tickle `` . grad d: well `` tickle `` was pronounced `` tickle `` . right ? phd a: `` tickle `` is pronounced `` tickle `` ? phd b: what are you saying ? grad d: it 's pronounced the same it 's pronounced the same as the verb . phd g: i 'm sorry ! grad d: so i think it 's the language model that makes it different . phd g: oh , sorry . what i meant is that there should be a pronunciation `` tickle `` for tcl as a word . phd a: yeah . grad d: oh i see . phd g: and that word in the in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: right . right . professor f: right . phd g: yeah you never would put `` tickle `` in the language model in that form , postdoc e: grad d: right . phd g: yeah . right . there 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and phd b: so how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are . phd g: yes . yeah . yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . tcl 's one of them . grad d: and and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously . phd g: um , y yeah . grad d: right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously . grad c: it 's just disturbing . phd g: right . phd b: hmm . phd g: right . we have this there is this thing i was gon na talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the like spelling people 's names and so forth . if we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had deborah tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it , grad d: you can correct it . yeah . phd g: but but we need to make sure we have the mispel if it does n't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: things like that . grad d: these are so funny to read . postdoc e: well , of course now the the tannen corre the spelling c change . phd g: so . postdoc e: uh , that 's what gets i i picked those up in the frequency check . phd g: right . right . so if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's it 's not an issue , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our the dictionary up to date . and then , yeah , in the case of `` tickle `` i guess we would just have a , you know , word `` tcl `` which phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: you add it to the dictionary . phd g: which normally would be an acronym , you know , `` tcl `` grad d: right . phd g: but just has another pronunciation . grad d: yep . postdoc e: `` icsi `` is is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say `` icsi . `` grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , i actually know phd g: oh yeah . postdoc e: they were said as letters . the others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz i have n't been able to go to all the ic icsi things , phd g: right , exactly . postdoc e: and { comment } and until they 've been listened to they stay as `` icsi `` . grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: right . professor f: don and i were just noticing , love this one over on page three , `` vocal vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . `` grad c: that 's great . grad d: it 's this , `` rrre - rrre - rrre `` . it was me . postdoc e: it was ! in fact , it was ! yeah ! grad d: a lot of these are me the the `` beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . `` postdoc e: he he s he said he said get phd a: to head . grad d: that was the i was imitating uh , beeping out postdoc e: yeah , that 's it . professor f: beep . postdoc e: perfect . yeah that 's it . professor f: yeah . phd g: oh there is something spelled out `` beeeeeep `` grad c: um postdoc e: that 's it . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , that 's that 's been changed . phd g: in the old thank you . because he was saying , `` how many e 's do i have to allow for ? `` grad c: you need a lot of grad d: what i meant was `` beep `` . grad c: you need a lot of qualification adam . grad d: i guess so . postdoc e: that 's been changed . so , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in . grad c: subtext . grad d: anyway . postdoc e: s chan brought it down . phd g: right , thanks , yeah . grad d: so they 're vocalization , phd g: right . postdoc e: and those of course get get picked up in the frequency check grad d: glosses . postdoc e: because you see `` beep `` phd g: right . postdoc e: and you know i mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing . phd g: right . right . postdoc e: i have the there 're various things like `` breathe `` versus `` breath `` versus `` inhale `` and , hhh , you know , i do n't know . i i think they do n't have any implications for anything else so it 's like i 'm tempted to leave them for now an and it 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . we can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them . phd g: yeah . professor f: `` sings finale - type song `` grad c: yeah , that was in the first meeting . professor f: that 's that 's good . phd g: yeah . grad d: um , postdoc e: yeah , but i do n't actually remember what it was . but that was eric did that . professor f: yeah . grad d: so on postdoc e: yeah . professor f: tah - dah ! i do n't know . postdoc e: i think maybe something like that . professor f: something like that maybe , yeah . postdoc e: well , that 'd qualify . grad d: on the glosses for numbers , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done . postdoc e: ok . interesting question . grad d: there 's a postdoc e: yes . ok , now first of all ooo - ooo ! very important . grad d: `` ooo - ooo . `` postdoc e: uh chuck chuck led to a refinement here which is to add `` nums `` if these are parts of the read numbers . now you already know i that i had , uh , in places where they had n't transcribed numbers , i put `` numbers `` in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . and , um , d chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . and that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five or three hundred and five times right now which is just well n n `` nums `` by itself grad d: `` nums `` , yeah . postdoc e: which means this is part of the numbers task . i may change it to `` digits `` . i mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ? grad d: yep . postdoc e: have to think about what 's the best for for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , `` numbers `` and `` nums `` are a part of this digits task thing . um , now th then i have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . um , i did n't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . and actually , th um , the reason i b did it this way was because i initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . so you say , `` seve - seventy eight point two `` , or whatever . and there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . you ca n't have the seven and grad d: so what 's to the left of these ? postdoc e: the left is i so example the very first one , grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it would be , spelled out in words , `` point five `` . grad d: ok , that 's what i was asking . right . postdoc e: only it 's spelled out in words . grad d: point five , yeah . postdoc e: so i this is also spelled out in in words . `` point five . `` grad d: good . postdoc e: and then , in here , `` nums `` , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . it comes out as `` nums quote dot five `` . grad d: ok now , the other example is , in the glosses right there , postdoc e: thank you . grad d: `` gloss one one one dash one three zero `` . grad c: right . grad d: what what 's to the left of that ? postdoc e: well now in that case it 's people saying things like `` one one one dash so - and - so `` or they 're saying uh `` two i mean zero `` whatever . grad d: ok . postdoc e: and in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gon na be included in the read digits anyway , phd b: so there will be a `` nums `` tag on those lines ? postdoc e: so i m in the uh there is . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . i 've added that all now too . grad c: there 's a `` numbers `` tag grad d: good . grad c: i 'm sorry i 'm i did n't follow that last thing . phd g: wait . postdoc e: so , so gloss in the same line that would have `` gloss quote one one one dash one thirty `` , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , `` curly bracket nums curly bracket `` . grad c: right . postdoc e: so if you if you did a , uh , a `` grep minus v nums `` phd g: oh , so you could do `` grep minus v nums `` . postdoc e: and you get rid of anything that was read . phd g: so that 's the yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: so there would n't be something like i if somebody said something like , `` boy , i 'm really tired , ok . `` and then started reading that would be on a separate line ? postdoc e: yes . phd g: ok great . cuz i was doing the `` grep minus v `` quick and dirty and looked like that was working ok , postdoc e: mm - hmm . good . phd g: but postdoc e: yep . phd g: great . now why do we what 's the reason for having like the point five have the `` nums `` on it ? is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ? postdoc e: this is more because phd g: or postdoc e: yeah . oh these are all these , the `` nums point `` , this all where they 're saying `` point `` something or other . phd g: these are all like inside the spontaneous postdoc e: and the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . i mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know eh , `` so in the data column five has `` , you know , `` one point five compared to seventy nine point six `` , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . and this is just really a a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said . grad d: label it . phd g: oh ok . postdoc e: so this is where chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in , phd g: i see . postdoc e: where we 're gon na have a master file of the channelized data . um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis . and , um , the implication that that i have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . these will just be things that are generated , grad d: right postdoc e: and e by using scripts . phd g: ok . grad d: master copies of superset . postdoc e: when things change then the the script will cham change but the but there wo n't be stored copies of in different versions of things . grad d: good . phd g: so , i guess i 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of `` nums `` { comment } where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech . phd b: right . right . that would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something . phd g: um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we do n't see the `` point five `` , or or it 's not there , then we phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: a just an and actually for things like `` seven eighths `` , or people do fractions too i guess , you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that , postdoc e: except phd g: or as long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust . postdoc e: well phd g: cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` nums `` string in it . phd b: i suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace nums curly brace `` . postdoc e: well ex - exactly . phd b: i mean that would be the postdoc e: exactly . that was that was my motivation . and i these can be changed , like i said . phd g: yeah . postdoc e: you know , i mean , as i said i was considering changing it to `` digits `` . and , it just i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know . phd b: right . phd g: it would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . and we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . but you 're right , we could do it this way , it it should work . um , phd b: yeah , and it makes it i guess the thing about phd g: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference phd b: yeah . phd g: because one 's in the context of a you know , a transcribed word string , phd b: right . postdoc e: the other thing is you can get really so minute with these things phd g: and so postdoc e: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` . now i i could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ? grad d: hmm . postdoc e: i it 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are and we could always add it later . percent 's easy to detect . point however is is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . and you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying `` well the first point i wan na make is so - and - so `` and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals . phd b: so liz , what does the recognizer do , postdoc e: so . phd b: uh , professor f: hmm . phd b: what does the sri recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` . does it output the word phd g: `` seven point five `` . phd b: right , the word `` seven `` ? grad d: well , the numbers ? phd b: the number `` seven `` ? phd g: the word . phd b: the word `` seven `` , ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: so i 'd so `` i 'd like i 'd like to talk about point five `` . phd g: and and actually , you know the language professor f: yeah . phd g: it 's the same point , actually , the the p you know , the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to 's `` and so there 's no distinction there . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: it 's just just the word `` point `` has yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if even if it 's a actually even like the word `` read `` { comment } and `` read `` those are two different words . they 're spelled the same way , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: and they 're still gon na be transcribed as read . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd g: so , yeah , i i like the idea of having this in there , i just i was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech because i what if we have like `` read letters `` or , i do n't know , grad d: we might wan na just a separate tag that says it 's read . phd g: like `` read something `` like `` read `` grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah , basically . but other than that i it sounds great . grad d: yeah . ok ? are we done ? postdoc e: well i wanted to say also regarding the channelized data , grad d: oh , i guess we 're not done . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that , um , thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was chuc - chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you if you said , `` oh `` and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one grad d: well postdoc e: as for the longer utterances , grad d: we did that for one meeting , right , postdoc e: and grad d: so you have that data do n't you ? phd a: yeah , that 's the training data . postdoc e: and he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: he gave me he did the very nice , he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . and at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . in addition the i 've i have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually . phd a: oh great . postdoc e: so right now , um , i know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and i 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started . phd a: oh great . ok . postdoc e: but if if you know , and i and he 's gon na give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose . phd a: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: because it 's true , i mean , if we could do the the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . and , um . so this is gon na be useful to expand this . phd a: so i i thought we we sh we sh perhaps we should try to to start with those channelized versions just to just to try it . give it give one tr transcriber the the channelized version of of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if if that 's better or if they if they can postdoc e: you mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ? phd a: yeah . yeah . yeah . postdoc e: that 'd be excellent . yeah , that 'd be really great . as it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time uh , aligned . i also wan na tell um , i also wanted to r raise the issue that ok so , there 's this idea we 're gon na have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gon na be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . and actually the master phd b: two or more . two or more different functions . postdoc e: two two or more . and that the master is gon na be the channelized version . phd b: right . postdoc e: so right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . and now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . but i wanted to get all the finished all the checks phd b: yeah , so that has implications for your script . grad c: yeah . so , uh , have those e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? and i know i 've seen @ @ i 've seen they 've been channelized , postdoc e: yes , they have . grad d: all ten hours ? grad c: but postdoc e: except for the missing thirty minutes . grad c: have they uh have they been has the time have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel grad d: great . postdoc e: uh , for for a total of like twenty m f for a total of let 's see , four times total of about an thirty minutes . that 's that 's been the case . grad c: so , postdoc e: and plus the training , whatever you have . grad c: i guess , i mean , i do n't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but i grad d: well it 's just we 're missing tea . grad c: yeah , i know . grad d: so . grad c: no , but i mean my question is like should i wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before i do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the into the our layer of uh transcripts . postdoc e: well , you know the problem the problem is that some some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring are to combine bins that were time bins which were previously separate . and the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off . grad c: right . postdoc e: and so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . and , grad c: ok . no i know i know that adjusting those things are gon na is gon na make it better . postdoc e: so i it 's gon na be a more reliable thing and i 'm not sure grad c: i mean i 'm sure about that , postdoc e: yeah . grad c: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or postdoc e: well partly it depends on how um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time , grad c: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes . grad c: yeah , i do n't doubt it . um , so . phd b: so right now the what you 're doing is you 're taking the uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ? grad c: yeah . i 'm doing it myself . i mean i if the time markings are n't different across channels , like the channelized version really does n't have any more information . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , i was just i mean , originally i had done before like the channelized versions were coming out . phd b: right . right . grad c: um , phd b: so i i th i think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals . grad c: and so it 's a question of like what mm - hmm . mm - hmm . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on . postdoc e: yep . mm - hmm . grad c: right . phd b: um , so postdoc e: yeah , i mean phd b: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated postdoc e: yeah . phd b: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions . grad c: ok . phd b: but the i guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that , grad c: i know . phd b: so , maybe grad c: right . postdoc e: but that phd g: but that that 's not hard . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad c: no . phd g: i i think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription phd b: ok . phd g: so if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you do n't where the word which words moved . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd g: and that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit uh , having to rerun the processing . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: the cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial . grad c: yeah . i mean as long as it can all be done automatically , i mean , then that 's not a concern . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , if i just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem . phd g: right . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: um , so yeah . as long as we 're at that point . and i know exactly like what the steps will work what 's going on , in the editing process , phd b: yeah . grad c: so . ok . postdoc e: so that 's i i mean i could there were other checks that i did , but it 's i think that we 've unless you think there 's anything else , i think that i 've covered it . professor f: yeah . phd b: i ca n't think of any of the other ones . postdoc e: ok . great . professor f: ok . grad d: oop ! man !

digits forms will instruct speakers to read digits separately and not as connected numbers . a tentative decision was made to collect overlapping digits from speakers .

what ’ s the status of digits data ? </s> grad d: and we already got the crash out of the way . it did crash , so i feel much better , earlier . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: interesting . hmm . professor f: will you get the door , and ? grad d: ok , so um . professor f: ok . you collected an agenda , huh ? grad d: i did collect an agenda . so i 'm gon na go first . mwa - ha - ha ! it should n't take too long . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . we 've gone once through the set . um , so the only thing i have to do professor f: no there 's only ten . grad d: yeah , that 's right . so i i just have to go through them professor f: well , ok . grad d: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . so we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . i 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . we have about two hours worth . i extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . so i extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the `` key `` file and the transcript files are parsable . some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and i have to go back and fix those . so what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . um , liz professor f: so you think two you think two hours is the is the total that we have ? grad d: yep , yeah . professor f: and you think we th uh , i i did n't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ? grad d: yes , absolutely . professor f: ok . grad d: so it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . i have this web - based speaker form , and i sent mail to everyone who had n't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in . professor f: so the relevance of the speaker form here , s grad d: it 's for labeling the extracted audio files . professor f: oh , ok . grad d: by speaker id and microphone type . professor f: was n't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something . grad d: no , i spoke with jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that we edit out any of the errors anyway . right ? so the there are no errors in the digits , professor f: yeah . grad d: you 'll always read the string correctly . so i ca n't imagine why anyone would care . so the other topic with digits is uh , liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in english . and it just did n't work at all because no one grouped them together . so it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . so in conversations with liz and uh jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . the problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . when i look at this , that first line is `` sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . `` um , and so the question is does anyone care ? um , i 've already spoken with liz and she feels that , correct me if i 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: as opposed to connected digits . um , i think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wan na do training and adaptation and all that other stuff . professor f: yeah um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you would n't like that ? is that correct ? phd g: well , we actually figured out a way to grad d: yeah , the the phd g: the the groupings are randomly generated . professor f: no but , i was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was n't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would n't , uh , go and do numbers so much . you know if it if it 's phd a: uh phd g: i think they may still do it , um , professor f: maybe some , but i probably not so much . phd b: what about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? phd g: and professor f: right ? so if you if if you have uh grad d: six dash one , you mean ? professor f: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one . phd g: i well ok i it might help , i would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping . professor f: that 's what i was asking , yeah . phd g: um , so if that 's your question , professor f: yeah . phd g: but i mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits postdoc e: yeah . phd g: if that 's what people want . i i 'm postdoc e: yeah . phd g: do n't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data , grad d: right . phd g: and that 's always a good thing . grad d: yep . phd g: it 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . they 're better trained than the numbers . grad d: so we could just , uh , put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` . professor f: right . phd g: right . right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: and if people make a mistake we grad d: how about `` o `` versus `` zero `` ? professor f: i mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's it 's it 's - i 'm not worrying about it i mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from ogi . i 'm sorry , digits numbers training that we have from ogi , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . and um . phd g: but it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean for it 's professor f: no , no , i guess what i 'm saying is that grad d: just let them read it how they read it . professor f: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have . phd g: right . well that 's fine with me as long as it 's just that i did n't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits . professor f: yeah . we can go back to the other thing later . phd g: so professor f: i mean we s we we 've we can do this for awhile phd g: ok . professor f: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . do yo i mean , do you want do you want this do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? phd g: ok . professor f: how much of this do you need ? with uh the phd g: it 's actually unclear right now . i just thought well we 're if we 're collec collecting digits , and adam had said we were running out of the ti forms , i thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits professor f: ok . phd g: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gon na do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . so we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general . professor f: ok , well if you pre phd g: but if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one oo `` . and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` o `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` o `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context , professor f: yeah . phd g: and that 's sort of interesting . so i do n't have a specific need cuz if i did i 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but if we can try it grad d: ok so so i can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: right , and you can give an example like , you know , `` six sixty - one would be read as six one `` . grad d: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . and i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words . phd g: and i think people will get it . postdoc e: i 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single . phd g: right , right . postdoc e: the spaces already bias it toward being separated . phd g: it 's just easier to read . postdoc e: and i know i 'm gon na find this easier than words . phd g: right . grad d: oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier . phd g: ok i also had a hard hard time with the words , professor f: yeah . phd g: but then we went back and forth on that . ok , so let 's give that a try grad d: ok . and is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ? professor f: ok . phd g: and grad d: or is that alright ? phd g: i mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading { comment } them . postdoc e: i think that i it 's fine . grad d: ok . postdoc e: i it it to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation phd g: ok . postdoc e: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all . phd g: great . ok . grad d: and i think there are about ten different gouping patterns professor f: let 's try it . phd g: well let 's give it a try . grad d: is n't that right , liz ? that we did . phd g: righ - right , and you just they 're randomly generated and randomly assigned to digits . postdoc e: i did mm - hmm . professor f: so we have postdoc e: go ahead . professor f: sorry , i i was just gon na say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now . and you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then , grad d: yep . professor f: something like twenty twenty to one . which i guess makes makes sense . so if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this . grad d: right . professor f: um , yeah like you say , i think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set 's ok . it 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll we might use use this up , uh , in some sense , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: right . professor f: but but uh postdoc e: yeah , i also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank . grad d: right . postdoc e: hmm ? cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . and i think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally american speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database . grad d: right . i think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing ti - digits probably is n't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different . professor f: yeah . grad d: it 's gon na be very hard to be comparable . postdoc e: except that if you have the stimuli comparable , then it says something about the the contribution of setting professor f: no it 's it 's not the same . postdoc e: and professor f: a little bit , but the other differences are so major . grad d: yeah i mean read versus not . postdoc e: ok . professor f: they 're such major sources of variance that it 's it 's it 's uh postdoc e: what 's an example of a of m some of the other differences ? any other a difference ? professor f: well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one , postdoc e: ok . professor f: you know , it 's just there 's so many things . grad d: well , and not just that , postdoc e: ok . professor f: it 's it and and enunciation . grad d: i mean the uh the corpus itself . i mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and i 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . i mean if i remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that . professor f: ti - digits was ? grad d: i thought so . professor f: i thought i thought it was read . grad d: was it read ? professor f: yeah , i think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be ogi . grad d: oh , i may well be . professor f: yeah , no ti - digits was read in th in read in the studio i believe . grad d: i have n't ever listened to ti - digits . so i do n't really know how it compares . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: but but regardless it 's gon na it 's hard to compare cross - corpus . professor f: but it but it - it 's different people is the is the core thing . grad d: so . postdoc e: ok , fine . professor f: and they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's it 's it 's really pretty different . but i think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you could n't do exact comparisons , it would n't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . uh , you know it 's not phd b: hey liz , what what do the groupings represent ? postdoc e: ok . phd b: you said there 's like ten different groupings ? phd g: right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings . phd b: mm - hmm . are the patterns like are they based on anything or phd g: um , i i just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time . phd b: oh . phd g: and they can have , i mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . in the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . so , there 's between , um well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and i purposely did n't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern . phd b: mmm . phd g: so grad d: and which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly . phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: so unlike the previous one , which i d simply replicated ti - digits , this is generated randomly . phd g: right . phd a: oh ok . phd b: mmm , oh , ok . phd g: but i think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or ti - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: and , i mean so it 's it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . especially for speakers that do n't talk a lot . grad d: yeah . phd g: so um , for adaptation . no , i 'm serious , phd a: yeah . grad d: yeah all we have for some people is digits . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know grad d: oh , you 're not . phd g: not for adaptation , nope . v w we 're not we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and i 'd as soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and i thought `` well , we 're gon na do better on that , grad d: oh i see . phd g: that 's not fair to use `` . grad d: oh yeah that 's true , absolutely . phd a: ok . phd g: but , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . so those speakers who are very quiet , { comment } shy grad d: that would be interesting to see whether that helps . phd g: r right phd b: like adam ? grad d: do you think that would help adapting on yeah . yeah , i have a real problem with that . professor f: yeah . phd g: well , it sh i mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the in the same meeting , grad d: right . same same acoustics , professor f: yeah . phd g: and so you do n't get grad d: same microphone , phd a: yeah . grad d: same channel . phd g: right , and so i still like the idea of having some kind of digit data . grad d: ok . good . professor f: yeah i mean , for the for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , i see it as as as the place that we start . but , th i mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but but uh the truth is i 'm hoping that we we through the the stuff that that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . so . postdoc e: great . phd g: the only thing that we do n't have , i know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we do n't have any overlapping digits . grad d: yeah , we talked about that a couple times . phd g: an - yea i know it 's weird , but um phd a: overlapping digits ! grad d: the the problem i see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load . phd g: alright everybody 's laughing . ok . grad c: dueling digits . grad d: no it 's it 's not stupid , it 's just i mean , try to do it . phd g: i 'm just talkin for the stuff that like dan ellis is gon na try , grad d: i mean , here , let 's try it . phd g: you know , cross - talk cancellation . grad d: you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: let 's try it . phd g: ok . phd a: oh ! phd g: wait oh it these are all the same forms . professor f: sixty - one . phd g: ok { comment } so but grad d: so so you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: no , i 'll p phd g: so you plu you plug your ears . grad d: oh i guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you do n't get the the same effects . phd a: yeah . phd g: well , what i mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people grad d: yeah . phd g: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like dan ellis and and company want to do . grad d: oh i see . phd g: digits are nice and well behaved , i mean grad d: i guess we could try . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . grad d: we could try doing some . phd g: it it would go faster . phd b: parallel . phd g: it would take one around { comment } amount of ti phd b: it 's the p - make of digit reading . grad d: well well ok . well let 's try it . phd g: that 's right . i i mea i 'm i was sort of serious , but i really , i mean , i 'm i do n't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea , professor f: see , y grad d: you do the last line , i 'll do the first line . phd g: so . professor f: ok . grad d: o . { comment } that 's not bad . professor f: no , i can do it . phd b: i could n't understand a single thing you guys were saying . phd g: a and that prosody was great , by the way . postdoc e: i think it was numbers , but i 'm not sure . phd g: it it sort of sounded like a duet , or something . phd a: yeah . phd b: performance art . professor f: alright , let 's try three at once you you pick one in the middle . phd a: the aurora theater . phd g: ok . professor f: go . phd g: i 'm sorry . i 'm mean i think it 's doable , grad d: the poor transcribers phd g: i 'm just grad d: they 're gon na hate us . phd g: so , we we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something . phd a: so pairwise . professor f: oh like a round , yeah , like in a a phd g: like a , phd a: yeah , just pairwise , professor f: yeah . phd g: what do you call it ? phd a: or yeah . grad c: round . grad d: a round . professor f: row , row , row your boat . phd g: li - a r like grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , like that . professor f: ok . phd b: it 's gon na require some coordination . phd g: then it would go like h twice as fast , or a third as fast . postdoc e: you have to have a similar pace . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . professor f: yeah . phd g: i 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wan na work on it we should talk to them . professor f: i do n't think we 're gon na collect vast amounts of data that way , phd g: so . grad d: mmm . professor f: but i think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like dan to play around with , phd g: ok . grad d: i think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad d: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . so . phd g: can try it out . grad d: see see what dan thinks . phd g: if we have nothing if we have no agenda we could do it some week . grad d: yeah , right . professor f: yeah , yeah . spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities . phd g: ok . grad d: i thought this was gon na be fast . postdoc e: c c can i can i have an another another question w about this ? grad d: oh well . postdoc e: so , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . like `` wonderful `` has `` one `` in it and and victor borge had a had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . well , i wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of `` one `` in `` wonderful `` versus `` one `` as a digit being read . professor f: that 's `` two `` bad . yeah . phd g: i 'm all `` four `` it . postdoc e: there you go . grad d: not after i `` eight `` though . professor f: uh , they do n't all work as well , do they ? hmm . what does nine work in ? grad c: nein ! grad d: uh . professor f: uh , grad c: you scream it . grad d: nein ! you have to be german , professor f: oh . in german , phd a: that 's german , yeah . phd b: it 's great for the germans . professor f: yeah . grad d: yeah . phd g: oh , oh ! postdoc e: nein . professor f: that 's right ! phd a: yeah . grad d: oh ! grad c: it only sounds w good when you scream it , though . so . professor f: i think everybody 's a little punchy here today . postdoc e: well , i mean , i just wanted to offer that as a possible task professor f: yes . postdoc e: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and i would n't take the inflated version . so he talks about the woman being `` two - derful `` , and and a but , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read . professor f: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i do n't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers . grad d: i think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh timit . professor f: well i do n't know . well i think the question is what the research is , so i mean , i presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here . grad d: hmm . professor f: yeah ok . phd g: right , yeah . professor f: so if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the the the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits a a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but i think someone would have to express interest in that . postdoc e: i see . ok . professor f: i think , to i mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance . postdoc e: ok , thank you . grad d: ok , are we done with digits ? postdoc e: huh . grad d: um , we have asr results from liz , transcript status from jane , and disk space and storage formats from don . does do we have any prefer preference on which way we wan na we wan na go ? phd g: well i was actually gon na skip the asr results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: since i think that 's more important to moving forward , but i mean morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of asr results because we did n't do anything fancy , but i think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . and then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the on the close - talking mikes . phd a: so these grad d: um , why do n't you , if you have a hard copy , why do n't you email it to the list . phd g: so , that 's about the summary but this is morgan has this paper . phd a: yeah , yeah . grad d: oh it 's in the paper . professor f: yeah , so it 's the same thing ? phd g: i mean he he professor f: it 's the same thing i mailed to every everybody that w where it was , phd g: it it 's that paper . grad d: ok . phd g: yeah , yeah . grad d: ok then , it 's already been mailed . phd g: so , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that professor f: yeah . phd g: and it 's let 's see , th i guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad . grad d: horrible ? phd g: and it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech . phd a: so , your your asr results were run on the channels synchronized , phd g: yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time , phd a: ok . ok . ok . phd g: um but as we i mean i wanted to here more about the transcription . if we can get the channel asynchronous or the phd a: yeah . phd g: the closer t that would be very interesting for us phd b: so if phd g: because we professor f: yeah , that 's that 's why i only used the part from use phd a: yeah . professor f: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels phd a: yeah . phd g: right . that 's phd a: yeah sure . yeah . professor f: or mixed channel phd a: yeah . professor f: rather mixed signal . phd b: so if there was a segment of speech this long phd g: cuz phd a: yeah . phd b: and oh and someone said `` oh , `` the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ? grad d: and someone said `` oh `` in the front in the middle . phd a: there were several speakers in it , yeah . phd g: that 's right . in fact i i pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wan na u use them in your talk of phd b: that 's why there 's so many insertion errors ? grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: chuck on the lapel , so chuck wore the lapel three out of four times . grad c: mmm . grad d: i noticed that chuck was wearing the lapel a lot . phd b: early on , yeah . phd g: um , yeah , and i wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was ok . i mean i still and i do n't know why . i 'm but um , grad d: probably how you wear it wore it i would guess . phd g: for you it was or who was next to me or something like that . grad c: yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it . phd a: yeah . phd g: right , but when chuck wore the lapel and morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion insertions are n't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate . grad d: uh - huh . phd a: yeah . phd g: and that 's that 's where the problems come in . so i this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to to show it . grad d: right . phd g: and also i just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh andreas and i called up dan ellis who 's still stuck in switzerland , and we were gon na ask him if if there 're you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . not that we were gon na do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done . grad d: and he said , `` lots lots lots lots . `` phd g: and he we 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap . phd a: yep . phd g: and he 's gon na look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do phd b: so phd g: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature . phd b: so so the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking { comment } based on the other peopl phd g: right . or who 's at any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker . phd a: so yeah phd b: i thought we were just gon na move the boundaries in . phd a: yeah , should it phd g: so . grad d: well that 's with the hand stuff . phd g: so there 's like grad d: but how would you do that automatically ? phd g: well ther there 's phd a: uh , i 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation phd b: right . phd a: and it seems to work pretty well to to get rid of those those overlaps , grad d: i mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do . professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad d: so . phd g: yeah . exactly , so it 's it 's a phd b: so why do you want to do echo cancellation ? phd g: um , it would be techniques used from adaptive adaptive echo cancellation which i do n't know enough about to talk about . phd b: uh - huh . professor f: it just it just to r to remove cross - talk . phd g: um . grad c: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: but , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy phd a: yeah . phd g: i i do n't know what exactly would go into it . phd a: yeah , sure . phd b: so it would be phd g: so the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak phd b: ok . so do sort of what he 's already what he 's trying to do . phd g: right . except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that . phd a: yeah , in another way , phd b: ok , i s i see . phd a: yeah . yeah . phd b: yeah . i see . professor f: yeah , dave dave uh is , um , also gon na be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff , phd g: so . professor f: so we 'll be phd g: and i guess espen ? this is uh is he here too ? professor f: yeah . phd g: may also be working so it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we ca n't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: um , until we can do that kind of processing . and so , once we have some some of yours , phd a: ok . yeah i 'm working on it . phd g: and @ @ we 'll move on . phd b: i think this also ties into one of the things that jane is gon na talk about too . grad d: um , phd g: ok . grad d: i also wanted to say i have done all this chopping up of digits , postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: so i have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . so let 's do that off - line , phd g: oh right . grad d: we do n't need to do it during the meeting . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: right . definitely grad d: and and i have scripts that will extract it out from `` key `` files phd g: uh , and don should grad d: and and do all the naming automatically , phd g: ok . grad c: alright . grad d: so you do n't have to do it by hand . phd g: great . grad c: you 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ? phd g: so that that 's it for the grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: speakers and ok . grad c: not names , but i ds . grad d: yep . yeah , names names in the names to i ds , grad c: ok . grad d: so you phd g: great . grad d: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match . phd g: right . grad c: cool . phd g: so at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth , grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . phd g: and we 're gon na basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your `` m o in one meeting and `` m o - two `` in another meeting and it 's we just need to standardize the grad c: yeah . that was my fault . phd g: um , no it 's it 's professor f: no , i did n't notice that actually . phd g: um , that 's why those comments are s are in there . grad c: yeah . then disregard it then . grad d: yep . so th i now have a script that you can just say basically look up morgan , phd g: so professor f: yeah . phd g: right . ok . grad d: and it will give you his id . phd g: great , great . grad c: ok . grad d: so . um , phd g: terrific . grad d: alright . do we don , you had disk space and storage formats . is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with chuck at some other time ? grad c: um , i had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and i do n't know exactly who to ask . i thought that maybe you would be the the person to talk to . so , is it a lossless compression { comment } when you compress , grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: so grad d: entropy coding . grad c: it just uses entropy coding ? grad d: so . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess my question would be is i just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . um , yeah , which is grad d: and i assume half of it is scratch and half of it is ? grad c: i 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it . grad d: probably , yeah . grad c: but um , professor f: that 's typical , huh . grad c: yeah , i do n't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so grad d: that does n't matter . grad c: but grad d: you can access it from anywhere in icsi . n grad c: ok . alright . how do you do that ? professor f: in fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , { comment } or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen grad d: n grad c: eighteen . phd g: eigh - eighteen . it was a spare that dave had around grad d: slash n slash machine name , slash x a in all likelihood . professor f: oh ok . grad c: oh i see . ok . alright , i did know that . grad d: um , so the the only question is how much of it the distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not . grad c: mm - hmm . right . grad d: so what you wan na do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate . grad c: ok . grad d: so , the stuff that is n't backed up is not a big deal because disks do n't crash very frequently , grad c: right . grad d: as long as you can regenerate it . grad c: right . i mean all of this stuff can be regenerated , phd g: yeah it 's grad c: it 's just a question grad d: then put it all on scratch phd g: well the grad d: because we 're icsi is is bottlenecked by backup . postdoc e: mm - hmm , very good point . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: so we wan na put phd g: well i 'd leave all the all the transcript stuff should n't should be backed up , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but all the waveform { comment } sound files should not be backed up , grad c: yeah , i guess right . phd g: the ones that you write out . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? um grad d: it just depends on your tools . i mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools ca n't take shortened format , i would leave them expanded , grad c: right . grad d: so you do n't have to unshorten them every single time you wan na do anything . grad c: ok . phd g: we can downsample them , grad c: do you think that 'd be ok ? phd g: so . grad c: to downsample them ? phd g: yeah . yeah , we get the same performance . grad c: ok . phd g: i mean the r the front - end on the sri recognizer just downsamples them on the fly , grad c: yeah , i guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques . phd g: so so that 's professor f: i i i 'm sorry phd g: yeah , if professor f: yeah , l i mean over all our data , we we want to not downsample . phd g: fe you 'd you wan na not . ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we 're what we 're doing is we 're writing out i mean , this is just a question . we 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from thilo , or or jane 's transcribers , you know , we we chop it there . professor f: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: and the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth . professor f: yeah . phd g: and those are the ones that we 're storing . grad d: yeah , as i said , since that 's it 's regeneratable , what i would do is take downsample it , phd g: so yeah . grad d: and compress it however you 're e the sri recognizer wants to take it in . phd g: yeah . professor f: ye phd g: so we ca n't shorten them , grad c: right . phd g: but we can downsample them . professor f: yeah , i mean yeah , i 'm sorry . phd g: so . professor f: as yeah , as long as there is a a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , { comment } then , grad c: r yeah . phd g: oh yeah th grad c: yeah those are gon na be kept . phd g: yeah . yeah . that that 's why we need more disk space professor f: uuu phd g: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um professor f: yeah . grad d: right . professor f: then it 's fine . but for for fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on phd g: oh yeah . grad c: right . grad d: yep . phd g: no . we always have the original long ones . professor f: we would like to phd b: so the sri front - end wo n't take a uh an an a large audio file name and then a a list of segments to chop out { comment } from that large audio file ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they actually have to be chopped out already ? phd g: um , it 's better if they 're chopped out , phd b: uh - huh . phd g: and and it it will be yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . you c you can actually move them around . grad d: and that 's the whole point about the naming conventions phd g: uh , you can get rid of grad d: is that you could run all the english speaking , phd g: yeah , it it 's a lot faster . grad d: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers , phd g: right . you can grab everything with the word `` the `` in it , grad d: and all the men , and all the women . yeah . phd g: and it 's that 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and so in principle , yeah , you could do that , phd b: i do n't i do n't think that 's really right . phd g: but it 's but it 's um grad d: `` that 's just not right , man . `` the the point phd g: these are long these are long grad d: so so s for example , what if you wanted to run run all the native speakers . phd g: you know . this is an hour of speech . grad d: right , so if if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . the way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . and so , you know , you just say phd g: we - yeah that 's so that 's part of it grad d: y so you just say you know `` asterisk e asterisk dot wave `` , and you get what you want . phd g: is right . and the other part is just that once they 're written out it it is a lot faster to to process them . grad d: rather than doing seeks through the file . phd g: so . otherwise , you 're just accessing grad d: this is all just temporary access , so i do n't i think it 's all just it 's fine . you know . fine to do it however is convenient . phd g: right . professor f: i mean it just depends how big the file is . if the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks phd g: right . the other thing is that , believe it or not i mean , we have some professor f: but . grad d: yeah and they do n't . two gig ? phd g: so we 're also looking at these in waves like for the alignments and so forth . you ca n't load an hour of speech into x waves . professor f: yeah . phd g: you need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the transcriber program um grad d: yes you can . phd b: yeah , you you can give waves a start and an end time . and middle . phd g: yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into x waves , you 'll be waiting there for phd b: no , i i 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file , phd g: oh phd b: i 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . and it 'll just go and pull out that section . grad d: i th w the transcribers did n't have any problem with that did they jane ? postdoc e: what 's th u w in what respect ? phd g: loading the long phd a: no , with the transcriber tool , it 's no problem . grad d: they loaded they loaded the long long files into x waves . phd g: it takes a very long ti phd a: yeah just to load a transcription postdoc e: in the in mm - hmm . phd a: phd g: right . phd a: takes a long time , phd g: it takes a l very long time . phd a: but not for the wavefile . the wavefile is there immediately . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad d: are you talking about transcriber or x waves ? phd g: huh . phd a: yeah . oh , i 'm tr talking about transcriber . phd g: actually , you 're talking about transcriber , right ? phd a: yeah . grad d: because because i we used x waves to do the digits . postdoc e: it was also true of the digits task which was x waves . grad d: and they were loading the full mixed files then , postdoc e: yeah . very quickly . grad d: and it did n't seem to be any problem . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: huh . well we we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a it - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file , grad d: hmm . seemed really fast . phd g: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um , grad d: well regardless , it 's professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean it 's i i think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two you know , the begin and end times . um , but i think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones . grad d: and , it 's no problem , right ? phd g: yeah , it 's grad d: because it 's not backed up . phd g: yeah . grad d: so we just phd g: it 's it 's just grad d: if we do n't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . you know , it 's not a big deal . postdoc e: you 're right about the backup being a bottleneck . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's good to think towards scratch . phd g: yeah , so these would n't be backed up , the postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yep . phd g: right . grad d: so remind me afterward phd g: and grad d: and i 'll and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff . grad c: ok . alright . i mean , i could just u do a du on it right ? and just see which how much is on each so . grad d: yep . each partition . and you wan na use , either xa or scratch . grad c: ok . grad d: well x question mark , anything starting with x is scratch . grad c: ok . postdoc e: with two two digits . grad d: two digits , right , xa , xb , xc . ok ? professor f: so , @ @ . grad d: jane ? postdoc e: ok . so i got a little print - out here . so three on this side , three on this side . and i stapled them . ok . alright so , first of all , um , there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and and i can tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ { comment } natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . and , um , so , i did a bunch of checks , and the first thing i did was obviously a spell - check . and at that point i discovered certain things like , um , `` accommodate `` with one `` m `` , that kind of thing . and then , in addition to that , i did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things phd b: i 'm i 'm sorry to interrupt postdoc e: yeah ? phd b: you could could i just back up a little bit postdoc e: sure , please , phd b: and postdoc e: yeah , please , please . phd b: so you 're doing these so the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd b: and they do their pass over it . postdoc e: yes . phd b: and then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you , postdoc e: that 's right . phd b: and you begin these sanit these quality checks . postdoc e: exactly . i do these checks . phd b: ok . postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: ok . postdoc e: exactly . yeah . thank you . and so , uh , i do a an exhaustive listing of the forms actually , i will go through this in in order , so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that . grad d: so on the fifth page , seven down postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . exactly ! exactly ! alright so , a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point i pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . and th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . and if not , then that gets checked . then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called `` spoken - forms `` . so there mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . but there 's w and that that 's done with the assumption that pronunciation variants can be handled . so for things like `` and `` , the fact that someone does n't say the `` d `` , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . however , things like `` cuz `` where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons f for those reasons i i kept that separate , and used the convention of using `` cuz `` for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . so `` wan na `` is another one , `` going `` uh , `` gon na `` is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model , to handle . and chuck , you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , did n't you ? did i phd b: i do n't remember . postdoc e: ok . so so it might not have been it might not have been you , phd b: hmm . postdoc e: but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . ok , so after that , let 's see , phd b: so that was part of the spell - check , { comment } or was that that was after the spell - check ? postdoc e: um . well so when i get the exhau so the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: so it gets `` cuz `` and `` wan na `` and that grad d: and then you gloss them ? postdoc e: yeah , mm - hmm . run it through i have a sed you know , so i do sed script saying whenever you see `` gon na `` you know , `` convert it to gon na `` , you know , `` gloss equals quote going - to quote `` , you know . and with all these things being in curly brackets grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so they 're always distinctive . ok , i also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , or anything which i 've classified as an acronym , and a pronounced acronym . and the way i tag ac pronounced acronyms is that i have underscores between the components . so if it 's `` acl `` then it 's `` a `` underscore `` c `` underscore `` l `` . grad d: and so so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? postdoc e: and the th yes . uh - huh , yeah . grad d: whew ! postdoc e: ok , so now . uh and a grad d: we are acronym - loaded . phd g: um , can i ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ? postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , for a word like `` because `` is it that it 's always predictably `` because `` ? i mean , is `` cuz `` always meaning `` because `` ? postdoc e: yes , but not the reverse . so sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting , and if if they actually said `` because `` , then it 's written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does n't even figure into the equation . professor f: but but in our meetings people do n't say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` phd g: beca - because right . { comment } right . grad d: except right there . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: um , so , i guess so , from the point of view of postdoc e: that 's a good point . phd g: the the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` , grad d: well , phd g: and so if we know that `` cuz `` postdoc e: that 's fine . grad d: but they have the gloss . postdoc e: well don has a script . grad c: yeah . phd g: but , we do n't grad d: you have the gloss form so you always replace it . postdoc e: exactly . grad d: if that 's how what you wan na do . postdoc e: uh - huh . and don knows this , grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that grad c: i replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it 's glossed . phd g: s right . but , if it 's ok . grad c: and phd g: but then there are other glosses that we do n't replace , right ? because postdoc e: yes . and that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses , phd g: ok . so , then it 's fine . postdoc e: on the different on the different types of comments , which we 'll which we 'll see in just a second . grad c: right . phd g: ok . postdoc e: so the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . there 're comments of four types . so this is a good time to introduce that . the four types . w and maybe we 'll expand that grad d: um postdoc e: but the but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . one of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned . grad d: can ca postdoc e: another type is , um grad d: so a are we done with acronyms ? cuz i had a question on what what this meant . postdoc e: i 'm still doing the overview . i have n't actually gotten here yet . grad d: oh i 'm sorry . postdoc e: ok so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . uh , then you have if it 's uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that are n't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of `` voc `` . phd a: whew ! postdoc e: and the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization . phd b: so then it just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there . postdoc e: oh yeah , so i e this would grad d: a comment , basically . postdoc e: let 's just take one example . phd b: oh , oh , oh . postdoc e: and then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . they always end . so it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . and then the third type right now , uh , is m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . so it could be something like , you know , `` referring to so - and - so `` , `` talking about such - and - such `` , uh , you know , `` looking at so - and - so `` . phd b: so on the m postdoc e: yeah . phd b: on the middle t so , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . but in the middle two th - it 's not applying to anything , right ? postdoc e: yeah , and this gets substituted here . grad d: they 're impulsive . phd b: ok . postdoc e: huh - uh . no , they 're events . phd b: ok . grad d: well the `` qual `` can be the `` qual `` is applying to the left . postdoc e: they 're actually they have the status of events . phd b: right , i just meant the middle two ones , yeah . grad d: yep . postdoc e: well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to `` laugh `` , there 's another one which is `` while laughing `` , grad d: `` while laughing `` . postdoc e: and that is , uh , i i an argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we have n't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have `` while laughing `` , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . have n't been awfully precise about that , but i have here , now we 're about to get to the to this now , i have frequencies . so you 'll see how often these different things occur . but , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm - hmm `` and `` mm - hmm `` and `` ha `` and `` uh - uh `` and all these different types . and , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been chuck , { comment } about , um about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for `` mm - hmmm `` with three m 's , and it 's transcribed with two m 's , that it might uh , that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because um , i p i personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . so , right now i 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms . grad d: oh good . postdoc e: i i should say grad d: so it 's a small list . postdoc e: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . so , i 'm gon na i 'm gon na i 'm gon na check grad d: that that 's known as `` found data `` . postdoc e: yeah , yeah . acsu - actually yeah . i got it was stored in a place i did n't expect , grad c: it 's like the z zapruder film . postdoc e: so and and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened . professor f: i wan na work with lost data . grad d: yeah . it 's much easier . postdoc e: and this is this 'll be great . so i 'll i 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably . grad d: hmm . postdoc e: and so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . but you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things . grad d: yeah . postdoc e: and i made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you would n't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . and , um grad c: jane , can i ask you a question ? what 's that very last one correspond to ? postdoc e: sure . grad c: i do n't even know how to pronounce that . postdoc e: well , yeah . now that that s only occurs once , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: and i 'm thinking of changing that . phd g: right . grad c: uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ? postdoc e: so - c i have n't listened to it so i do n't know . grad c: like their hair 's on fire ? postdoc e: i have n't heard it actually . i n i need to listen to that one . grad d: ah ! phd a: it 's the castle of ah ! phd g: actually we we gave this to our pronunciation person , grad c: uh , it looks like that . phd g: she 's like , `` i do n't know what that is either `` . so . postdoc e: did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? cuz i have n't heard it . phd g: no , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , were n't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just did n't listen so she did n't know . we just we 're waiting on that just to do the alignments . postdoc e: yeah . yeah i 'm curious to se hear what it is , but i did n't know wan na change it to something else until i knew . grad c: right . phd g: maybe it 's `` argh `` ? postdoc e: well , sss , { comment } you know phd g: grad c: but that 's not really like postdoc e: hhh . grad c: no one really says `` argh , `` you know , postdoc e: phd g: yeah . right , no one say grad c: it 's not professor f: well , you just did . phd b: except for now ! grad c: well , there 's another there 's another word error . grad d: postdoc e: yeah . that 's right . grad d: yes , that 's right . we 're gon na have a big problem when we talk about that . grad c: cha - ching . phd g: ah . phd b: we 're gon na never recognize this meeting . grad d: in monty python you say `` argh `` a lot . postdoc e: ok . grad c: oh yeah ? grad d: so . well , or if you 're a c programmer . grad c: mmm . grad d: you say arg - c and arg - v all the time . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . grad c: that 's true . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah phd g: but it has a different prosody . professor f: arg . grad d: it does . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: arg arg - max , arg - min , yeah . grad d: ah ! postdoc e: uh , phd g: so , jane , what 's the d grad d: maybe he died while dictating . postdoc e: so . phd g: i have one question about the the `` eh `` versus like the `` ah `` and the `` uh `` . postdoc e: that 's partly a nonnative - native thing , phd g: ok . postdoc e: but i have found `` eh `` in native speakers too . phd g: postdoc e: but it 's mostly non - native phd a: h phd b: that 's `` eh `` versus `` ah `` ? phd g: s ok . postdoc e: eh . grad d: eh ? phd g: `` eh , `` yeah right , cuz there were were some speakers that did definite `` eh 's `` postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but right now we phd b: they were the canadians , right ? professor f: canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . phd g: so , it it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real `` eh `` and the one that 's just like `` uh `` or transcribed `` aaa `` postdoc e: exactly . phd g: cuz in like in switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like `` uh `` . grad d: you mean just the single letter `` a `` { comment } as in the particle ? phd a: the transcription or grad d: article . phd g: no , no , i mean like the the `` uh `` , postdoc e: `` uh `` . grad d: oh . phd g: or the `` uh `` , `` eh `` , `` ah `` were all the same . and then , we have this additional non - native version of uh , like `` eeh `` . grad c: all the `` eh `` 's i 've seen have been like that . they 've been like `` eh `` like that have bee has been transcribed to `` eh `` . and sometimes it 's stronger , postdoc e: mm - hmm , that 's right . grad c: like `` eeh `` { comment } which is like closer to `` eh `` . postdoc e: mmm . phd g: right . grad c: but . grad d: i 'm just these poor transcribers , they 're gon na hate this meeting . postdoc e: yeah . grad c: i know . we should go off - line . postdoc e: well , we 're not doing we 're not doing length . professor f: quick thilo , do a do a filled pause for us . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . phd a: ooo { comment } no . phd g: but you 're a native german speaker so it 's not a not a issue for phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's only grad d: them canadians . phd g: onl yeah . no , only if you do n't have lax vowels , i guess . grad d: oh . phd g: right . postdoc e: this makes sense . phd g: so it 's like japanese and spanish postdoc e: yeah i i think you 've uh - huh , yeah . grad d: oh i see . professor f: uh - huh . phd g: and grad d: i did n't get that , postdoc e: that makes sense . grad d: ok . postdoc e: yeah , and so , you know , i mean , th th i have there are some , um , americans who who are using this `` eh `` too , and i have n't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being `` uh 's `` but , uh , i my spot - checking has made me think that we do have `` eh `` in also , um , american e e data represented here . but any case , that 's the this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list , phd g: yeah this is great . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah , it 's good , postdoc e: and this is grad d: yeah . phd g: this is really really helpful . postdoc e: functionally pretty , you know , also it was fascinating , i was listening to some of these , uh , i guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to to do a search for the `` mm - hmm 's `` . and you get `` mm - hmm `` and diff everybody 's doing it . grad d: and just listen to them ? yeah . postdoc e: just i wanted to say i w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a `` mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: performance art , postdoc e: mm - hmm . `` grad d: just extract them all . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's really it 's really fun to listen to . phd b: morgan can make a song out of it . postdoc e: all these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's it 's the same item . it 's very interesting . ok . uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber was n't sure of , grad d: oh i see . postdoc e: and i have n't been able to listen to to to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them grad d: o how about question mark ? postdoc e: cuz it 's the only place where where they 're used . phd a: the question marks , yeah . what are those ? postdoc e: question mark is punctuation . so it they said that @ @ grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: oh . postdoc e: um , `` dc ? `` phd a: ah . grad d: so they so it 's `` plp ? `` postdoc e: exactly . exactly . yeah , so the only well , and i do have a stress marker here . sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um professor f: i 'm sorry , i i got lost here . what - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ? postdoc e: the parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ann , but was n't entirely sure . so i 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no , professor f: ah . postdoc e: and then get rid of the parentheses . phd g: right . postdoc e: but the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain . grad d: yeah , p - make is phd g: yeah i mean cuz they they have no idea , grad d: that 's a good one . that 's correct . phd g: right . if you hear ctpd , i mean , they do pretty well professor f: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: but it 's professor f: i i do n't recognize a lot of these . phd g: you know how are how are they gon na know ? grad c: yeah . grad d: i know ! i i was saying that i think a lot of them are the networks meeting . professor f: i postdoc e: i think that 's true . professor f: maybe . postdoc e: yeah , absolutely . grad d: i see a few . postdoc e: nsa , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: a lot of these are are coming from them . i listened to some of that . grad c: yeah , we do n't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting . grad d: although i see i see plenty of uh postdoc e: yeah . yeah . i agree . grad c: it 's not so bad . phd g: right . postdoc e: and robustness has a fair amount , phd a: yeah . grad c: mmm . postdoc e: but the nsa group is just very very many . phd g: the recognizer , it is funny . kept getting pta for pda . grad d: yeah , that 's pretty close . professor f: yeah . phd g: this is close , right , grad c: that 's not bad . phd g: and the pta was in these , uh , topics about children , postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , anyway . postdoc e: that 's interesting . phd g: is the p - pta working ? postdoc e: right and sometimes , i mean , you see a couple of these that are actually `` ok 's `` so it 's it 's may be that they got to the point where i mean it was low enough understandable understandability that they were n't entirely sure the person said `` ok . `` you know , so it is n't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym , grad c: there 's a lot of `` ok 's `` . postdoc e: but just n needs to be double checked . now we get to the comments . this professor f: the number to the left is the number of incidences ? grad d: count . yep . postdoc e: number of times out of the entire database , professor f: uh - huh . postdoc e: w except for that last thirty minutes i have n't checked yet . professor f: so cts is really big here , grad d: yeah , i wonder what it is . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd a: so what is the difference between `` papers rustling `` and `` rustling papers `` ? professor f: ip , i know what ip is . postdoc e: i 'd have to listen . i i i agree . i w i 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: but , i i 'm a little hesitant to to collapse across categories unless i actually listen to them . phd a: seems so . professor f: ok . grad d: oh i 'm sure we 've said xml more than five times . postdoc e: well , then , at least now . phd a: now it 's at least six times , yeah . professor f: s s six now , yeah . postdoc e: yeah . six . ok well professor f: wh - the self - referential aspect of these these p phd g: i 'm wai grad c: yeah . grad d: yes , it 's very bad . phd g: well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ? grad d: yes . phd g: y no normally you do n't go around saying , `` now you 've said it six times . grad d: yeah { comment } that 's right . phd g: now you 've said `` postdoc e: but did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of `` ok `` ? phd a: seven hundred eighty - five instances . postdoc e: and that 's just without the without punc punctuation . grad c: yeah . grad d: yep . professor f: no , i did n't . yeah . grad d: and that 's an underestimate postdoc e: extra forty one if it 's questioned . phd b: where 's that ? grad d: cuz they 're yep . professor f: so th postdoc e: on the page two of acronyms . grad c: is this after like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of `` ok `` to this ? professor f: yeah . seven hundred eighty . postdoc e: yeah . of `` ok `` , yes . grad c: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . so that 's the single existing convention for `` ok `` . phd b: wait a minute , w s professor f: so now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight . postdoc e: yeah that 's grad c: although , what 's there 's one with a slash after it . that 's kind of disturbing . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know . postdoc e: that 's that 's i looked for that one . phd g: yeah . grad c: anyway . postdoc e: i actually explicitly looked for that one , grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think that , um , i i 'm not exactly sure about that . phd b: was that somewhere where they were gon na say `` new speaker `` or something ? postdoc e: no , i looked for that , but that does n't actually exist . and it may be , i do n't i ca n't explain that . grad c: that 's alright . i 'm just pointing that out . postdoc e: i i it 's the only grad c: there 's postdoc e: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and i think it 's it 's an epiphenomenon . phd g: well there 's not @ @ . grad d: so i 'll just i was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that `` to be `` or `` not to be `` . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: there 's no tilde in front of it , postdoc e: oh that 's cute . phd b: so . postdoc e: that 's funny . yeah . grad d: ok anyways , sorry . postdoc e: ok . grad d: `` try to stay on topic , adam . `` postdoc e: there is th one y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . so now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes . grad d: ok so , um , on some of these quals , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: are they really quals , or are they glosses ? so like there 's a `` qual tcl `` . postdoc e: `` tcl `` . where do you see that ? grad d: uh postdoc e: oh , oh . the reason is because w it was said `` tickle `` . professor f: what 's a qual ? grad d: oh i see , i see . grad c: hmm . grad d: so it 's not gloss . ok , i see . postdoc e: yep . grad c: sh - should n't it be `` qual tickle `` or something ? grad d: it was n't said `` tcl `` . of course . grad c: like it 's not postdoc e: on the in the actual script in the actual transcript , i s i so this this happens in the very first one . grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i actually wrote it as `` tickle `` . grad c: ok . postdoc e: because we they did n't say `` tcl `` , they said `` tickle `` . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and then , following that is `` qual tcl `` . phd g: right . grad c: oh i see . ok . professor f: i f i forget , what 's qual ? postdoc e: qual - qualifier . phd b: it 's just comment about what they said . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: comment . grad c: it 's not something you wan na replace with postdoc e: comment or contextual comment . phd b: so they did n't mean `` tickle `` as in elmo , grad c: but phd a: tickle ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they meant `` tickle `` as in grad d: yeah . phd g: huh . professor f: right . phd g: but at some point i mean , we probably shoul grad d: we 'll probably add it to the language model . phd g: but we should add it to the dictionar grad d: yeah . phd g: no , to the pronunciation model . grad d: what did i say ? phd a: to the language model model . phd g: language , uh grad d: well both . phd b: add what , liz ? grad d: we can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model . phd g: oh lan oh ok - we ok phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of `` tickle `` . grad d: well `` tickle `` was pronounced `` tickle `` . right ? phd a: `` tickle `` is pronounced `` tickle `` ? phd b: what are you saying ? grad d: it 's pronounced the same it 's pronounced the same as the verb . phd g: i 'm sorry ! grad d: so i think it 's the language model that makes it different . phd g: oh , sorry . what i meant is that there should be a pronunciation `` tickle `` for tcl as a word . phd a: yeah . grad d: oh i see . phd g: and that word in the in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: right . right . professor f: right . phd g: yeah you never would put `` tickle `` in the language model in that form , postdoc e: grad d: right . phd g: yeah . right . there 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and phd b: so how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are . phd g: yes . yeah . yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . tcl 's one of them . grad d: and and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously . phd g: um , y yeah . grad d: right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously . grad c: it 's just disturbing . phd g: right . phd b: hmm . phd g: right . we have this there is this thing i was gon na talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the like spelling people 's names and so forth . if we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had deborah tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it , grad d: you can correct it . yeah . phd g: but but we need to make sure we have the mispel if it does n't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: things like that . grad d: these are so funny to read . postdoc e: well , of course now the the tannen corre the spelling c change . phd g: so . postdoc e: uh , that 's what gets i i picked those up in the frequency check . phd g: right . right . so if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's it 's not an issue , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our the dictionary up to date . and then , yeah , in the case of `` tickle `` i guess we would just have a , you know , word `` tcl `` which phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: you add it to the dictionary . phd g: which normally would be an acronym , you know , `` tcl `` grad d: right . phd g: but just has another pronunciation . grad d: yep . postdoc e: `` icsi `` is is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say `` icsi . `` grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , i actually know phd g: oh yeah . postdoc e: they were said as letters . the others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz i have n't been able to go to all the ic icsi things , phd g: right , exactly . postdoc e: and { comment } and until they 've been listened to they stay as `` icsi `` . grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: right . professor f: don and i were just noticing , love this one over on page three , `` vocal vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . `` grad c: that 's great . grad d: it 's this , `` rrre - rrre - rrre `` . it was me . postdoc e: it was ! in fact , it was ! yeah ! grad d: a lot of these are me the the `` beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . `` postdoc e: he he s he said he said get phd a: to head . grad d: that was the i was imitating uh , beeping out postdoc e: yeah , that 's it . professor f: beep . postdoc e: perfect . yeah that 's it . professor f: yeah . phd g: oh there is something spelled out `` beeeeeep `` grad c: um postdoc e: that 's it . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , that 's that 's been changed . phd g: in the old thank you . because he was saying , `` how many e 's do i have to allow for ? `` grad c: you need a lot of grad d: what i meant was `` beep `` . grad c: you need a lot of qualification adam . grad d: i guess so . postdoc e: that 's been changed . so , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in . grad c: subtext . grad d: anyway . postdoc e: s chan brought it down . phd g: right , thanks , yeah . grad d: so they 're vocalization , phd g: right . postdoc e: and those of course get get picked up in the frequency check grad d: glosses . postdoc e: because you see `` beep `` phd g: right . postdoc e: and you know i mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing . phd g: right . right . postdoc e: i have the there 're various things like `` breathe `` versus `` breath `` versus `` inhale `` and , hhh , you know , i do n't know . i i think they do n't have any implications for anything else so it 's like i 'm tempted to leave them for now an and it 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . we can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them . phd g: yeah . professor f: `` sings finale - type song `` grad c: yeah , that was in the first meeting . professor f: that 's that 's good . phd g: yeah . grad d: um , postdoc e: yeah , but i do n't actually remember what it was . but that was eric did that . professor f: yeah . grad d: so on postdoc e: yeah . professor f: tah - dah ! i do n't know . postdoc e: i think maybe something like that . professor f: something like that maybe , yeah . postdoc e: well , that 'd qualify . grad d: on the glosses for numbers , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done . postdoc e: ok . interesting question . grad d: there 's a postdoc e: yes . ok , now first of all ooo - ooo ! very important . grad d: `` ooo - ooo . `` postdoc e: uh chuck chuck led to a refinement here which is to add `` nums `` if these are parts of the read numbers . now you already know i that i had , uh , in places where they had n't transcribed numbers , i put `` numbers `` in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . and , um , d chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . and that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five or three hundred and five times right now which is just well n n `` nums `` by itself grad d: `` nums `` , yeah . postdoc e: which means this is part of the numbers task . i may change it to `` digits `` . i mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ? grad d: yep . postdoc e: have to think about what 's the best for for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , `` numbers `` and `` nums `` are a part of this digits task thing . um , now th then i have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . um , i did n't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . and actually , th um , the reason i b did it this way was because i initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . so you say , `` seve - seventy eight point two `` , or whatever . and there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . you ca n't have the seven and grad d: so what 's to the left of these ? postdoc e: the left is i so example the very first one , grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it would be , spelled out in words , `` point five `` . grad d: ok , that 's what i was asking . right . postdoc e: only it 's spelled out in words . grad d: point five , yeah . postdoc e: so i this is also spelled out in in words . `` point five . `` grad d: good . postdoc e: and then , in here , `` nums `` , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . it comes out as `` nums quote dot five `` . grad d: ok now , the other example is , in the glosses right there , postdoc e: thank you . grad d: `` gloss one one one dash one three zero `` . grad c: right . grad d: what what 's to the left of that ? postdoc e: well now in that case it 's people saying things like `` one one one dash so - and - so `` or they 're saying uh `` two i mean zero `` whatever . grad d: ok . postdoc e: and in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gon na be included in the read digits anyway , phd b: so there will be a `` nums `` tag on those lines ? postdoc e: so i m in the uh there is . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . i 've added that all now too . grad c: there 's a `` numbers `` tag grad d: good . grad c: i 'm sorry i 'm i did n't follow that last thing . phd g: wait . postdoc e: so , so gloss in the same line that would have `` gloss quote one one one dash one thirty `` , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , `` curly bracket nums curly bracket `` . grad c: right . postdoc e: so if you if you did a , uh , a `` grep minus v nums `` phd g: oh , so you could do `` grep minus v nums `` . postdoc e: and you get rid of anything that was read . phd g: so that 's the yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: so there would n't be something like i if somebody said something like , `` boy , i 'm really tired , ok . `` and then started reading that would be on a separate line ? postdoc e: yes . phd g: ok great . cuz i was doing the `` grep minus v `` quick and dirty and looked like that was working ok , postdoc e: mm - hmm . good . phd g: but postdoc e: yep . phd g: great . now why do we what 's the reason for having like the point five have the `` nums `` on it ? is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ? postdoc e: this is more because phd g: or postdoc e: yeah . oh these are all these , the `` nums point `` , this all where they 're saying `` point `` something or other . phd g: these are all like inside the spontaneous postdoc e: and the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . i mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know eh , `` so in the data column five has `` , you know , `` one point five compared to seventy nine point six `` , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . and this is just really a a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said . grad d: label it . phd g: oh ok . postdoc e: so this is where chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in , phd g: i see . postdoc e: where we 're gon na have a master file of the channelized data . um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis . and , um , the implication that that i have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . these will just be things that are generated , grad d: right postdoc e: and e by using scripts . phd g: ok . grad d: master copies of superset . postdoc e: when things change then the the script will cham change but the but there wo n't be stored copies of in different versions of things . grad d: good . phd g: so , i guess i 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of `` nums `` { comment } where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech . phd b: right . right . that would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something . phd g: um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we do n't see the `` point five `` , or or it 's not there , then we phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: a just an and actually for things like `` seven eighths `` , or people do fractions too i guess , you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that , postdoc e: except phd g: or as long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust . postdoc e: well phd g: cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` nums `` string in it . phd b: i suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace nums curly brace `` . postdoc e: well ex - exactly . phd b: i mean that would be the postdoc e: exactly . that was that was my motivation . and i these can be changed , like i said . phd g: yeah . postdoc e: you know , i mean , as i said i was considering changing it to `` digits `` . and , it just i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know . phd b: right . phd g: it would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . and we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . but you 're right , we could do it this way , it it should work . um , phd b: yeah , and it makes it i guess the thing about phd g: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference phd b: yeah . phd g: because one 's in the context of a you know , a transcribed word string , phd b: right . postdoc e: the other thing is you can get really so minute with these things phd g: and so postdoc e: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` . now i i could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ? grad d: hmm . postdoc e: i it 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are and we could always add it later . percent 's easy to detect . point however is is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . and you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying `` well the first point i wan na make is so - and - so `` and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals . phd b: so liz , what does the recognizer do , postdoc e: so . phd b: uh , professor f: hmm . phd b: what does the sri recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` . does it output the word phd g: `` seven point five `` . phd b: right , the word `` seven `` ? grad d: well , the numbers ? phd b: the number `` seven `` ? phd g: the word . phd b: the word `` seven `` , ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: so i 'd so `` i 'd like i 'd like to talk about point five `` . phd g: and and actually , you know the language professor f: yeah . phd g: it 's the same point , actually , the the p you know , the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to 's `` and so there 's no distinction there . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: it 's just just the word `` point `` has yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if even if it 's a actually even like the word `` read `` { comment } and `` read `` those are two different words . they 're spelled the same way , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: and they 're still gon na be transcribed as read . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd g: so , yeah , i i like the idea of having this in there , i just i was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech because i what if we have like `` read letters `` or , i do n't know , grad d: we might wan na just a separate tag that says it 's read . phd g: like `` read something `` like `` read `` grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah , basically . but other than that i it sounds great . grad d: yeah . ok ? are we done ? postdoc e: well i wanted to say also regarding the channelized data , grad d: oh , i guess we 're not done . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that , um , thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was chuc - chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you if you said , `` oh `` and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one grad d: well postdoc e: as for the longer utterances , grad d: we did that for one meeting , right , postdoc e: and grad d: so you have that data do n't you ? phd a: yeah , that 's the training data . postdoc e: and he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: he gave me he did the very nice , he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . and at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . in addition the i 've i have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually . phd a: oh great . postdoc e: so right now , um , i know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and i 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started . phd a: oh great . ok . postdoc e: but if if you know , and i and he 's gon na give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose . phd a: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: because it 's true , i mean , if we could do the the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . and , um . so this is gon na be useful to expand this . phd a: so i i thought we we sh we sh perhaps we should try to to start with those channelized versions just to just to try it . give it give one tr transcriber the the channelized version of of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if if that 's better or if they if they can postdoc e: you mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ? phd a: yeah . yeah . yeah . postdoc e: that 'd be excellent . yeah , that 'd be really great . as it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time uh , aligned . i also wan na tell um , i also wanted to r raise the issue that ok so , there 's this idea we 're gon na have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gon na be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . and actually the master phd b: two or more . two or more different functions . postdoc e: two two or more . and that the master is gon na be the channelized version . phd b: right . postdoc e: so right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . and now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . but i wanted to get all the finished all the checks phd b: yeah , so that has implications for your script . grad c: yeah . so , uh , have those e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? and i know i 've seen @ @ i 've seen they 've been channelized , postdoc e: yes , they have . grad d: all ten hours ? grad c: but postdoc e: except for the missing thirty minutes . grad c: have they uh have they been has the time have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel grad d: great . postdoc e: uh , for for a total of like twenty m f for a total of let 's see , four times total of about an thirty minutes . that 's that 's been the case . grad c: so , postdoc e: and plus the training , whatever you have . grad c: i guess , i mean , i do n't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but i grad d: well it 's just we 're missing tea . grad c: yeah , i know . grad d: so . grad c: no , but i mean my question is like should i wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before i do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the into the our layer of uh transcripts . postdoc e: well , you know the problem the problem is that some some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring are to combine bins that were time bins which were previously separate . and the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off . grad c: right . postdoc e: and so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . and , grad c: ok . no i know i know that adjusting those things are gon na is gon na make it better . postdoc e: so i it 's gon na be a more reliable thing and i 'm not sure grad c: i mean i 'm sure about that , postdoc e: yeah . grad c: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or postdoc e: well partly it depends on how um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time , grad c: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes . grad c: yeah , i do n't doubt it . um , so . phd b: so right now the what you 're doing is you 're taking the uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ? grad c: yeah . i 'm doing it myself . i mean i if the time markings are n't different across channels , like the channelized version really does n't have any more information . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , i was just i mean , originally i had done before like the channelized versions were coming out . phd b: right . right . grad c: um , phd b: so i i th i think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals . grad c: and so it 's a question of like what mm - hmm . mm - hmm . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on . postdoc e: yep . mm - hmm . grad c: right . phd b: um , so postdoc e: yeah , i mean phd b: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated postdoc e: yeah . phd b: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions . grad c: ok . phd b: but the i guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that , grad c: i know . phd b: so , maybe grad c: right . postdoc e: but that phd g: but that that 's not hard . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad c: no . phd g: i i think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription phd b: ok . phd g: so if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you do n't where the word which words moved . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd g: and that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit uh , having to rerun the processing . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: the cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial . grad c: yeah . i mean as long as it can all be done automatically , i mean , then that 's not a concern . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , if i just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem . phd g: right . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: um , so yeah . as long as we 're at that point . and i know exactly like what the steps will work what 's going on , in the editing process , phd b: yeah . grad c: so . ok . postdoc e: so that 's i i mean i could there were other checks that i did , but it 's i think that we 've unless you think there 's anything else , i think that i 've covered it . professor f: yeah . phd b: i ca n't think of any of the other ones . postdoc e: ok . great . professor f: ok . grad d: oop ! man !

a test set of digits data totalling two hours is nearly complete . digit extraction has been performed on roughly half of this data

what additional assignments were proposed about the digits ? </s> grad d: and we already got the crash out of the way . it did crash , so i feel much better , earlier . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: interesting . hmm . professor f: will you get the door , and ? grad d: ok , so um . professor f: ok . you collected an agenda , huh ? grad d: i did collect an agenda . so i 'm gon na go first . mwa - ha - ha ! it should n't take too long . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . we 've gone once through the set . um , so the only thing i have to do professor f: no there 's only ten . grad d: yeah , that 's right . so i i just have to go through them professor f: well , ok . grad d: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . so we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . i 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . we have about two hours worth . i extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . so i extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the `` key `` file and the transcript files are parsable . some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and i have to go back and fix those . so what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . um , liz professor f: so you think two you think two hours is the is the total that we have ? grad d: yep , yeah . professor f: and you think we th uh , i i did n't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ? grad d: yes , absolutely . professor f: ok . grad d: so it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . i have this web - based speaker form , and i sent mail to everyone who had n't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in . professor f: so the relevance of the speaker form here , s grad d: it 's for labeling the extracted audio files . professor f: oh , ok . grad d: by speaker id and microphone type . professor f: was n't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something . grad d: no , i spoke with jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that we edit out any of the errors anyway . right ? so the there are no errors in the digits , professor f: yeah . grad d: you 'll always read the string correctly . so i ca n't imagine why anyone would care . so the other topic with digits is uh , liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in english . and it just did n't work at all because no one grouped them together . so it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . so in conversations with liz and uh jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . the problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . when i look at this , that first line is `` sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . `` um , and so the question is does anyone care ? um , i 've already spoken with liz and she feels that , correct me if i 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: as opposed to connected digits . um , i think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wan na do training and adaptation and all that other stuff . professor f: yeah um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you would n't like that ? is that correct ? phd g: well , we actually figured out a way to grad d: yeah , the the phd g: the the groupings are randomly generated . professor f: no but , i was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was n't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would n't , uh , go and do numbers so much . you know if it if it 's phd a: uh phd g: i think they may still do it , um , professor f: maybe some , but i probably not so much . phd b: what about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? phd g: and professor f: right ? so if you if if you have uh grad d: six dash one , you mean ? professor f: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one . phd g: i well ok i it might help , i would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping . professor f: that 's what i was asking , yeah . phd g: um , so if that 's your question , professor f: yeah . phd g: but i mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits postdoc e: yeah . phd g: if that 's what people want . i i 'm postdoc e: yeah . phd g: do n't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data , grad d: right . phd g: and that 's always a good thing . grad d: yep . phd g: it 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . they 're better trained than the numbers . grad d: so we could just , uh , put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` . professor f: right . phd g: right . right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: and if people make a mistake we grad d: how about `` o `` versus `` zero `` ? professor f: i mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's it 's it 's - i 'm not worrying about it i mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from ogi . i 'm sorry , digits numbers training that we have from ogi , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . and um . phd g: but it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean for it 's professor f: no , no , i guess what i 'm saying is that grad d: just let them read it how they read it . professor f: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have . phd g: right . well that 's fine with me as long as it 's just that i did n't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits . professor f: yeah . we can go back to the other thing later . phd g: so professor f: i mean we s we we 've we can do this for awhile phd g: ok . professor f: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . do yo i mean , do you want do you want this do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? phd g: ok . professor f: how much of this do you need ? with uh the phd g: it 's actually unclear right now . i just thought well we 're if we 're collec collecting digits , and adam had said we were running out of the ti forms , i thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits professor f: ok . phd g: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gon na do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . so we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general . professor f: ok , well if you pre phd g: but if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one oo `` . and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` o `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` o `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context , professor f: yeah . phd g: and that 's sort of interesting . so i do n't have a specific need cuz if i did i 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but if we can try it grad d: ok so so i can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: right , and you can give an example like , you know , `` six sixty - one would be read as six one `` . grad d: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . and i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words . phd g: and i think people will get it . postdoc e: i 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single . phd g: right , right . postdoc e: the spaces already bias it toward being separated . phd g: it 's just easier to read . postdoc e: and i know i 'm gon na find this easier than words . phd g: right . grad d: oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier . phd g: ok i also had a hard hard time with the words , professor f: yeah . phd g: but then we went back and forth on that . ok , so let 's give that a try grad d: ok . and is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ? professor f: ok . phd g: and grad d: or is that alright ? phd g: i mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading { comment } them . postdoc e: i think that i it 's fine . grad d: ok . postdoc e: i it it to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation phd g: ok . postdoc e: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all . phd g: great . ok . grad d: and i think there are about ten different gouping patterns professor f: let 's try it . phd g: well let 's give it a try . grad d: is n't that right , liz ? that we did . phd g: righ - right , and you just they 're randomly generated and randomly assigned to digits . postdoc e: i did mm - hmm . professor f: so we have postdoc e: go ahead . professor f: sorry , i i was just gon na say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now . and you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then , grad d: yep . professor f: something like twenty twenty to one . which i guess makes makes sense . so if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this . grad d: right . professor f: um , yeah like you say , i think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set 's ok . it 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll we might use use this up , uh , in some sense , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: right . professor f: but but uh postdoc e: yeah , i also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank . grad d: right . postdoc e: hmm ? cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . and i think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally american speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database . grad d: right . i think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing ti - digits probably is n't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different . professor f: yeah . grad d: it 's gon na be very hard to be comparable . postdoc e: except that if you have the stimuli comparable , then it says something about the the contribution of setting professor f: no it 's it 's not the same . postdoc e: and professor f: a little bit , but the other differences are so major . grad d: yeah i mean read versus not . postdoc e: ok . professor f: they 're such major sources of variance that it 's it 's it 's uh postdoc e: what 's an example of a of m some of the other differences ? any other a difference ? professor f: well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one , postdoc e: ok . professor f: you know , it 's just there 's so many things . grad d: well , and not just that , postdoc e: ok . professor f: it 's it and and enunciation . grad d: i mean the uh the corpus itself . i mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and i 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . i mean if i remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that . professor f: ti - digits was ? grad d: i thought so . professor f: i thought i thought it was read . grad d: was it read ? professor f: yeah , i think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be ogi . grad d: oh , i may well be . professor f: yeah , no ti - digits was read in th in read in the studio i believe . grad d: i have n't ever listened to ti - digits . so i do n't really know how it compares . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: but but regardless it 's gon na it 's hard to compare cross - corpus . professor f: but it but it - it 's different people is the is the core thing . grad d: so . postdoc e: ok , fine . professor f: and they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's it 's it 's really pretty different . but i think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you could n't do exact comparisons , it would n't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . uh , you know it 's not phd b: hey liz , what what do the groupings represent ? postdoc e: ok . phd b: you said there 's like ten different groupings ? phd g: right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings . phd b: mm - hmm . are the patterns like are they based on anything or phd g: um , i i just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time . phd b: oh . phd g: and they can have , i mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . in the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . so , there 's between , um well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and i purposely did n't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern . phd b: mmm . phd g: so grad d: and which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly . phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: so unlike the previous one , which i d simply replicated ti - digits , this is generated randomly . phd g: right . phd a: oh ok . phd b: mmm , oh , ok . phd g: but i think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or ti - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: and , i mean so it 's it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . especially for speakers that do n't talk a lot . grad d: yeah . phd g: so um , for adaptation . no , i 'm serious , phd a: yeah . grad d: yeah all we have for some people is digits . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know grad d: oh , you 're not . phd g: not for adaptation , nope . v w we 're not we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and i 'd as soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and i thought `` well , we 're gon na do better on that , grad d: oh i see . phd g: that 's not fair to use `` . grad d: oh yeah that 's true , absolutely . phd a: ok . phd g: but , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . so those speakers who are very quiet , { comment } shy grad d: that would be interesting to see whether that helps . phd g: r right phd b: like adam ? grad d: do you think that would help adapting on yeah . yeah , i have a real problem with that . professor f: yeah . phd g: well , it sh i mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the in the same meeting , grad d: right . same same acoustics , professor f: yeah . phd g: and so you do n't get grad d: same microphone , phd a: yeah . grad d: same channel . phd g: right , and so i still like the idea of having some kind of digit data . grad d: ok . good . professor f: yeah i mean , for the for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , i see it as as as the place that we start . but , th i mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but but uh the truth is i 'm hoping that we we through the the stuff that that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . so . postdoc e: great . phd g: the only thing that we do n't have , i know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we do n't have any overlapping digits . grad d: yeah , we talked about that a couple times . phd g: an - yea i know it 's weird , but um phd a: overlapping digits ! grad d: the the problem i see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load . phd g: alright everybody 's laughing . ok . grad c: dueling digits . grad d: no it 's it 's not stupid , it 's just i mean , try to do it . phd g: i 'm just talkin for the stuff that like dan ellis is gon na try , grad d: i mean , here , let 's try it . phd g: you know , cross - talk cancellation . grad d: you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: let 's try it . phd g: ok . phd a: oh ! phd g: wait oh it these are all the same forms . professor f: sixty - one . phd g: ok { comment } so but grad d: so so you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: no , i 'll p phd g: so you plu you plug your ears . grad d: oh i guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you do n't get the the same effects . phd a: yeah . phd g: well , what i mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people grad d: yeah . phd g: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like dan ellis and and company want to do . grad d: oh i see . phd g: digits are nice and well behaved , i mean grad d: i guess we could try . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . grad d: we could try doing some . phd g: it it would go faster . phd b: parallel . phd g: it would take one around { comment } amount of ti phd b: it 's the p - make of digit reading . grad d: well well ok . well let 's try it . phd g: that 's right . i i mea i 'm i was sort of serious , but i really , i mean , i 'm i do n't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea , professor f: see , y grad d: you do the last line , i 'll do the first line . phd g: so . professor f: ok . grad d: o . { comment } that 's not bad . professor f: no , i can do it . phd b: i could n't understand a single thing you guys were saying . phd g: a and that prosody was great , by the way . postdoc e: i think it was numbers , but i 'm not sure . phd g: it it sort of sounded like a duet , or something . phd a: yeah . phd b: performance art . professor f: alright , let 's try three at once you you pick one in the middle . phd a: the aurora theater . phd g: ok . professor f: go . phd g: i 'm sorry . i 'm mean i think it 's doable , grad d: the poor transcribers phd g: i 'm just grad d: they 're gon na hate us . phd g: so , we we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something . phd a: so pairwise . professor f: oh like a round , yeah , like in a a phd g: like a , phd a: yeah , just pairwise , professor f: yeah . phd g: what do you call it ? phd a: or yeah . grad c: round . grad d: a round . professor f: row , row , row your boat . phd g: li - a r like grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , like that . professor f: ok . phd b: it 's gon na require some coordination . phd g: then it would go like h twice as fast , or a third as fast . postdoc e: you have to have a similar pace . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . professor f: yeah . phd g: i 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wan na work on it we should talk to them . professor f: i do n't think we 're gon na collect vast amounts of data that way , phd g: so . grad d: mmm . professor f: but i think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like dan to play around with , phd g: ok . grad d: i think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad d: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . so . phd g: can try it out . grad d: see see what dan thinks . phd g: if we have nothing if we have no agenda we could do it some week . grad d: yeah , right . professor f: yeah , yeah . spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities . phd g: ok . grad d: i thought this was gon na be fast . postdoc e: c c can i can i have an another another question w about this ? grad d: oh well . postdoc e: so , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . like `` wonderful `` has `` one `` in it and and victor borge had a had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . well , i wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of `` one `` in `` wonderful `` versus `` one `` as a digit being read . professor f: that 's `` two `` bad . yeah . phd g: i 'm all `` four `` it . postdoc e: there you go . grad d: not after i `` eight `` though . professor f: uh , they do n't all work as well , do they ? hmm . what does nine work in ? grad c: nein ! grad d: uh . professor f: uh , grad c: you scream it . grad d: nein ! you have to be german , professor f: oh . in german , phd a: that 's german , yeah . phd b: it 's great for the germans . professor f: yeah . grad d: yeah . phd g: oh , oh ! postdoc e: nein . professor f: that 's right ! phd a: yeah . grad d: oh ! grad c: it only sounds w good when you scream it , though . so . professor f: i think everybody 's a little punchy here today . postdoc e: well , i mean , i just wanted to offer that as a possible task professor f: yes . postdoc e: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and i would n't take the inflated version . so he talks about the woman being `` two - derful `` , and and a but , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read . professor f: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i do n't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers . grad d: i think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh timit . professor f: well i do n't know . well i think the question is what the research is , so i mean , i presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here . grad d: hmm . professor f: yeah ok . phd g: right , yeah . professor f: so if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the the the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits a a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but i think someone would have to express interest in that . postdoc e: i see . ok . professor f: i think , to i mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance . postdoc e: ok , thank you . grad d: ok , are we done with digits ? postdoc e: huh . grad d: um , we have asr results from liz , transcript status from jane , and disk space and storage formats from don . does do we have any prefer preference on which way we wan na we wan na go ? phd g: well i was actually gon na skip the asr results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: since i think that 's more important to moving forward , but i mean morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of asr results because we did n't do anything fancy , but i think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . and then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the on the close - talking mikes . phd a: so these grad d: um , why do n't you , if you have a hard copy , why do n't you email it to the list . phd g: so , that 's about the summary but this is morgan has this paper . phd a: yeah , yeah . grad d: oh it 's in the paper . professor f: yeah , so it 's the same thing ? phd g: i mean he he professor f: it 's the same thing i mailed to every everybody that w where it was , phd g: it it 's that paper . grad d: ok . phd g: yeah , yeah . grad d: ok then , it 's already been mailed . phd g: so , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that professor f: yeah . phd g: and it 's let 's see , th i guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad . grad d: horrible ? phd g: and it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech . phd a: so , your your asr results were run on the channels synchronized , phd g: yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time , phd a: ok . ok . ok . phd g: um but as we i mean i wanted to here more about the transcription . if we can get the channel asynchronous or the phd a: yeah . phd g: the closer t that would be very interesting for us phd b: so if phd g: because we professor f: yeah , that 's that 's why i only used the part from use phd a: yeah . professor f: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels phd a: yeah . phd g: right . that 's phd a: yeah sure . yeah . professor f: or mixed channel phd a: yeah . professor f: rather mixed signal . phd b: so if there was a segment of speech this long phd g: cuz phd a: yeah . phd b: and oh and someone said `` oh , `` the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ? grad d: and someone said `` oh `` in the front in the middle . phd a: there were several speakers in it , yeah . phd g: that 's right . in fact i i pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wan na u use them in your talk of phd b: that 's why there 's so many insertion errors ? grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: chuck on the lapel , so chuck wore the lapel three out of four times . grad c: mmm . grad d: i noticed that chuck was wearing the lapel a lot . phd b: early on , yeah . phd g: um , yeah , and i wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was ok . i mean i still and i do n't know why . i 'm but um , grad d: probably how you wear it wore it i would guess . phd g: for you it was or who was next to me or something like that . grad c: yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it . phd a: yeah . phd g: right , but when chuck wore the lapel and morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion insertions are n't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate . grad d: uh - huh . phd a: yeah . phd g: and that 's that 's where the problems come in . so i this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to to show it . grad d: right . phd g: and also i just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh andreas and i called up dan ellis who 's still stuck in switzerland , and we were gon na ask him if if there 're you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . not that we were gon na do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done . grad d: and he said , `` lots lots lots lots . `` phd g: and he we 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap . phd a: yep . phd g: and he 's gon na look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do phd b: so phd g: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature . phd b: so so the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking { comment } based on the other peopl phd g: right . or who 's at any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker . phd a: so yeah phd b: i thought we were just gon na move the boundaries in . phd a: yeah , should it phd g: so . grad d: well that 's with the hand stuff . phd g: so there 's like grad d: but how would you do that automatically ? phd g: well ther there 's phd a: uh , i 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation phd b: right . phd a: and it seems to work pretty well to to get rid of those those overlaps , grad d: i mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do . professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad d: so . phd g: yeah . exactly , so it 's it 's a phd b: so why do you want to do echo cancellation ? phd g: um , it would be techniques used from adaptive adaptive echo cancellation which i do n't know enough about to talk about . phd b: uh - huh . professor f: it just it just to r to remove cross - talk . phd g: um . grad c: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: but , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy phd a: yeah . phd g: i i do n't know what exactly would go into it . phd a: yeah , sure . phd b: so it would be phd g: so the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak phd b: ok . so do sort of what he 's already what he 's trying to do . phd g: right . except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that . phd a: yeah , in another way , phd b: ok , i s i see . phd a: yeah . yeah . phd b: yeah . i see . professor f: yeah , dave dave uh is , um , also gon na be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff , phd g: so . professor f: so we 'll be phd g: and i guess espen ? this is uh is he here too ? professor f: yeah . phd g: may also be working so it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we ca n't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: um , until we can do that kind of processing . and so , once we have some some of yours , phd a: ok . yeah i 'm working on it . phd g: and @ @ we 'll move on . phd b: i think this also ties into one of the things that jane is gon na talk about too . grad d: um , phd g: ok . grad d: i also wanted to say i have done all this chopping up of digits , postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: so i have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . so let 's do that off - line , phd g: oh right . grad d: we do n't need to do it during the meeting . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: right . definitely grad d: and and i have scripts that will extract it out from `` key `` files phd g: uh , and don should grad d: and and do all the naming automatically , phd g: ok . grad c: alright . grad d: so you do n't have to do it by hand . phd g: great . grad c: you 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ? phd g: so that that 's it for the grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: speakers and ok . grad c: not names , but i ds . grad d: yep . yeah , names names in the names to i ds , grad c: ok . grad d: so you phd g: great . grad d: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match . phd g: right . grad c: cool . phd g: so at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth , grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . phd g: and we 're gon na basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your `` m o in one meeting and `` m o - two `` in another meeting and it 's we just need to standardize the grad c: yeah . that was my fault . phd g: um , no it 's it 's professor f: no , i did n't notice that actually . phd g: um , that 's why those comments are s are in there . grad c: yeah . then disregard it then . grad d: yep . so th i now have a script that you can just say basically look up morgan , phd g: so professor f: yeah . phd g: right . ok . grad d: and it will give you his id . phd g: great , great . grad c: ok . grad d: so . um , phd g: terrific . grad d: alright . do we don , you had disk space and storage formats . is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with chuck at some other time ? grad c: um , i had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and i do n't know exactly who to ask . i thought that maybe you would be the the person to talk to . so , is it a lossless compression { comment } when you compress , grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: so grad d: entropy coding . grad c: it just uses entropy coding ? grad d: so . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess my question would be is i just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . um , yeah , which is grad d: and i assume half of it is scratch and half of it is ? grad c: i 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it . grad d: probably , yeah . grad c: but um , professor f: that 's typical , huh . grad c: yeah , i do n't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so grad d: that does n't matter . grad c: but grad d: you can access it from anywhere in icsi . n grad c: ok . alright . how do you do that ? professor f: in fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , { comment } or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen grad d: n grad c: eighteen . phd g: eigh - eighteen . it was a spare that dave had around grad d: slash n slash machine name , slash x a in all likelihood . professor f: oh ok . grad c: oh i see . ok . alright , i did know that . grad d: um , so the the only question is how much of it the distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not . grad c: mm - hmm . right . grad d: so what you wan na do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate . grad c: ok . grad d: so , the stuff that is n't backed up is not a big deal because disks do n't crash very frequently , grad c: right . grad d: as long as you can regenerate it . grad c: right . i mean all of this stuff can be regenerated , phd g: yeah it 's grad c: it 's just a question grad d: then put it all on scratch phd g: well the grad d: because we 're icsi is is bottlenecked by backup . postdoc e: mm - hmm , very good point . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: so we wan na put phd g: well i 'd leave all the all the transcript stuff should n't should be backed up , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but all the waveform { comment } sound files should not be backed up , grad c: yeah , i guess right . phd g: the ones that you write out . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? um grad d: it just depends on your tools . i mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools ca n't take shortened format , i would leave them expanded , grad c: right . grad d: so you do n't have to unshorten them every single time you wan na do anything . grad c: ok . phd g: we can downsample them , grad c: do you think that 'd be ok ? phd g: so . grad c: to downsample them ? phd g: yeah . yeah , we get the same performance . grad c: ok . phd g: i mean the r the front - end on the sri recognizer just downsamples them on the fly , grad c: yeah , i guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques . phd g: so so that 's professor f: i i i 'm sorry phd g: yeah , if professor f: yeah , l i mean over all our data , we we want to not downsample . phd g: fe you 'd you wan na not . ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we 're what we 're doing is we 're writing out i mean , this is just a question . we 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from thilo , or or jane 's transcribers , you know , we we chop it there . professor f: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: and the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth . professor f: yeah . phd g: and those are the ones that we 're storing . grad d: yeah , as i said , since that 's it 's regeneratable , what i would do is take downsample it , phd g: so yeah . grad d: and compress it however you 're e the sri recognizer wants to take it in . phd g: yeah . professor f: ye phd g: so we ca n't shorten them , grad c: right . phd g: but we can downsample them . professor f: yeah , i mean yeah , i 'm sorry . phd g: so . professor f: as yeah , as long as there is a a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , { comment } then , grad c: r yeah . phd g: oh yeah th grad c: yeah those are gon na be kept . phd g: yeah . yeah . that that 's why we need more disk space professor f: uuu phd g: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um professor f: yeah . grad d: right . professor f: then it 's fine . but for for fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on phd g: oh yeah . grad c: right . grad d: yep . phd g: no . we always have the original long ones . professor f: we would like to phd b: so the sri front - end wo n't take a uh an an a large audio file name and then a a list of segments to chop out { comment } from that large audio file ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they actually have to be chopped out already ? phd g: um , it 's better if they 're chopped out , phd b: uh - huh . phd g: and and it it will be yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . you c you can actually move them around . grad d: and that 's the whole point about the naming conventions phd g: uh , you can get rid of grad d: is that you could run all the english speaking , phd g: yeah , it it 's a lot faster . grad d: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers , phd g: right . you can grab everything with the word `` the `` in it , grad d: and all the men , and all the women . yeah . phd g: and it 's that 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and so in principle , yeah , you could do that , phd b: i do n't i do n't think that 's really right . phd g: but it 's but it 's um grad d: `` that 's just not right , man . `` the the point phd g: these are long these are long grad d: so so s for example , what if you wanted to run run all the native speakers . phd g: you know . this is an hour of speech . grad d: right , so if if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . the way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . and so , you know , you just say phd g: we - yeah that 's so that 's part of it grad d: y so you just say you know `` asterisk e asterisk dot wave `` , and you get what you want . phd g: is right . and the other part is just that once they 're written out it it is a lot faster to to process them . grad d: rather than doing seeks through the file . phd g: so . otherwise , you 're just accessing grad d: this is all just temporary access , so i do n't i think it 's all just it 's fine . you know . fine to do it however is convenient . phd g: right . professor f: i mean it just depends how big the file is . if the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks phd g: right . the other thing is that , believe it or not i mean , we have some professor f: but . grad d: yeah and they do n't . two gig ? phd g: so we 're also looking at these in waves like for the alignments and so forth . you ca n't load an hour of speech into x waves . professor f: yeah . phd g: you need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the transcriber program um grad d: yes you can . phd b: yeah , you you can give waves a start and an end time . and middle . phd g: yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into x waves , you 'll be waiting there for phd b: no , i i 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file , phd g: oh phd b: i 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . and it 'll just go and pull out that section . grad d: i th w the transcribers did n't have any problem with that did they jane ? postdoc e: what 's th u w in what respect ? phd g: loading the long phd a: no , with the transcriber tool , it 's no problem . grad d: they loaded they loaded the long long files into x waves . phd g: it takes a very long ti phd a: yeah just to load a transcription postdoc e: in the in mm - hmm . phd a: phd g: right . phd a: takes a long time , phd g: it takes a l very long time . phd a: but not for the wavefile . the wavefile is there immediately . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad d: are you talking about transcriber or x waves ? phd g: huh . phd a: yeah . oh , i 'm tr talking about transcriber . phd g: actually , you 're talking about transcriber , right ? phd a: yeah . grad d: because because i we used x waves to do the digits . postdoc e: it was also true of the digits task which was x waves . grad d: and they were loading the full mixed files then , postdoc e: yeah . very quickly . grad d: and it did n't seem to be any problem . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: huh . well we we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a it - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file , grad d: hmm . seemed really fast . phd g: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um , grad d: well regardless , it 's professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean it 's i i think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two you know , the begin and end times . um , but i think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones . grad d: and , it 's no problem , right ? phd g: yeah , it 's grad d: because it 's not backed up . phd g: yeah . grad d: so we just phd g: it 's it 's just grad d: if we do n't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . you know , it 's not a big deal . postdoc e: you 're right about the backup being a bottleneck . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's good to think towards scratch . phd g: yeah , so these would n't be backed up , the postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yep . phd g: right . grad d: so remind me afterward phd g: and grad d: and i 'll and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff . grad c: ok . alright . i mean , i could just u do a du on it right ? and just see which how much is on each so . grad d: yep . each partition . and you wan na use , either xa or scratch . grad c: ok . grad d: well x question mark , anything starting with x is scratch . grad c: ok . postdoc e: with two two digits . grad d: two digits , right , xa , xb , xc . ok ? professor f: so , @ @ . grad d: jane ? postdoc e: ok . so i got a little print - out here . so three on this side , three on this side . and i stapled them . ok . alright so , first of all , um , there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and and i can tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ { comment } natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . and , um , so , i did a bunch of checks , and the first thing i did was obviously a spell - check . and at that point i discovered certain things like , um , `` accommodate `` with one `` m `` , that kind of thing . and then , in addition to that , i did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things phd b: i 'm i 'm sorry to interrupt postdoc e: yeah ? phd b: you could could i just back up a little bit postdoc e: sure , please , phd b: and postdoc e: yeah , please , please . phd b: so you 're doing these so the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd b: and they do their pass over it . postdoc e: yes . phd b: and then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you , postdoc e: that 's right . phd b: and you begin these sanit these quality checks . postdoc e: exactly . i do these checks . phd b: ok . postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: ok . postdoc e: exactly . yeah . thank you . and so , uh , i do a an exhaustive listing of the forms actually , i will go through this in in order , so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that . grad d: so on the fifth page , seven down postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . exactly ! exactly ! alright so , a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point i pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . and th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . and if not , then that gets checked . then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called `` spoken - forms `` . so there mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . but there 's w and that that 's done with the assumption that pronunciation variants can be handled . so for things like `` and `` , the fact that someone does n't say the `` d `` , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . however , things like `` cuz `` where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons f for those reasons i i kept that separate , and used the convention of using `` cuz `` for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . so `` wan na `` is another one , `` going `` uh , `` gon na `` is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model , to handle . and chuck , you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , did n't you ? did i phd b: i do n't remember . postdoc e: ok . so so it might not have been it might not have been you , phd b: hmm . postdoc e: but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . ok , so after that , let 's see , phd b: so that was part of the spell - check , { comment } or was that that was after the spell - check ? postdoc e: um . well so when i get the exhau so the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: so it gets `` cuz `` and `` wan na `` and that grad d: and then you gloss them ? postdoc e: yeah , mm - hmm . run it through i have a sed you know , so i do sed script saying whenever you see `` gon na `` you know , `` convert it to gon na `` , you know , `` gloss equals quote going - to quote `` , you know . and with all these things being in curly brackets grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so they 're always distinctive . ok , i also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , or anything which i 've classified as an acronym , and a pronounced acronym . and the way i tag ac pronounced acronyms is that i have underscores between the components . so if it 's `` acl `` then it 's `` a `` underscore `` c `` underscore `` l `` . grad d: and so so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? postdoc e: and the th yes . uh - huh , yeah . grad d: whew ! postdoc e: ok , so now . uh and a grad d: we are acronym - loaded . phd g: um , can i ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ? postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , for a word like `` because `` is it that it 's always predictably `` because `` ? i mean , is `` cuz `` always meaning `` because `` ? postdoc e: yes , but not the reverse . so sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting , and if if they actually said `` because `` , then it 's written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does n't even figure into the equation . professor f: but but in our meetings people do n't say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` phd g: beca - because right . { comment } right . grad d: except right there . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: um , so , i guess so , from the point of view of postdoc e: that 's a good point . phd g: the the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` , grad d: well , phd g: and so if we know that `` cuz `` postdoc e: that 's fine . grad d: but they have the gloss . postdoc e: well don has a script . grad c: yeah . phd g: but , we do n't grad d: you have the gloss form so you always replace it . postdoc e: exactly . grad d: if that 's how what you wan na do . postdoc e: uh - huh . and don knows this , grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that grad c: i replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it 's glossed . phd g: s right . but , if it 's ok . grad c: and phd g: but then there are other glosses that we do n't replace , right ? because postdoc e: yes . and that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses , phd g: ok . so , then it 's fine . postdoc e: on the different on the different types of comments , which we 'll which we 'll see in just a second . grad c: right . phd g: ok . postdoc e: so the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . there 're comments of four types . so this is a good time to introduce that . the four types . w and maybe we 'll expand that grad d: um postdoc e: but the but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . one of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned . grad d: can ca postdoc e: another type is , um grad d: so a are we done with acronyms ? cuz i had a question on what what this meant . postdoc e: i 'm still doing the overview . i have n't actually gotten here yet . grad d: oh i 'm sorry . postdoc e: ok so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . uh , then you have if it 's uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that are n't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of `` voc `` . phd a: whew ! postdoc e: and the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization . phd b: so then it just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there . postdoc e: oh yeah , so i e this would grad d: a comment , basically . postdoc e: let 's just take one example . phd b: oh , oh , oh . postdoc e: and then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . they always end . so it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . and then the third type right now , uh , is m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . so it could be something like , you know , `` referring to so - and - so `` , `` talking about such - and - such `` , uh , you know , `` looking at so - and - so `` . phd b: so on the m postdoc e: yeah . phd b: on the middle t so , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . but in the middle two th - it 's not applying to anything , right ? postdoc e: yeah , and this gets substituted here . grad d: they 're impulsive . phd b: ok . postdoc e: huh - uh . no , they 're events . phd b: ok . grad d: well the `` qual `` can be the `` qual `` is applying to the left . postdoc e: they 're actually they have the status of events . phd b: right , i just meant the middle two ones , yeah . grad d: yep . postdoc e: well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to `` laugh `` , there 's another one which is `` while laughing `` , grad d: `` while laughing `` . postdoc e: and that is , uh , i i an argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we have n't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have `` while laughing `` , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . have n't been awfully precise about that , but i have here , now we 're about to get to the to this now , i have frequencies . so you 'll see how often these different things occur . but , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm - hmm `` and `` mm - hmm `` and `` ha `` and `` uh - uh `` and all these different types . and , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been chuck , { comment } about , um about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for `` mm - hmmm `` with three m 's , and it 's transcribed with two m 's , that it might uh , that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because um , i p i personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . so , right now i 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms . grad d: oh good . postdoc e: i i should say grad d: so it 's a small list . postdoc e: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . so , i 'm gon na i 'm gon na i 'm gon na check grad d: that that 's known as `` found data `` . postdoc e: yeah , yeah . acsu - actually yeah . i got it was stored in a place i did n't expect , grad c: it 's like the z zapruder film . postdoc e: so and and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened . professor f: i wan na work with lost data . grad d: yeah . it 's much easier . postdoc e: and this is this 'll be great . so i 'll i 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably . grad d: hmm . postdoc e: and so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . but you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things . grad d: yeah . postdoc e: and i made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you would n't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . and , um grad c: jane , can i ask you a question ? what 's that very last one correspond to ? postdoc e: sure . grad c: i do n't even know how to pronounce that . postdoc e: well , yeah . now that that s only occurs once , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: and i 'm thinking of changing that . phd g: right . grad c: uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ? postdoc e: so - c i have n't listened to it so i do n't know . grad c: like their hair 's on fire ? postdoc e: i have n't heard it actually . i n i need to listen to that one . grad d: ah ! phd a: it 's the castle of ah ! phd g: actually we we gave this to our pronunciation person , grad c: uh , it looks like that . phd g: she 's like , `` i do n't know what that is either `` . so . postdoc e: did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? cuz i have n't heard it . phd g: no , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , were n't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just did n't listen so she did n't know . we just we 're waiting on that just to do the alignments . postdoc e: yeah . yeah i 'm curious to se hear what it is , but i did n't know wan na change it to something else until i knew . grad c: right . phd g: maybe it 's `` argh `` ? postdoc e: well , sss , { comment } you know phd g: grad c: but that 's not really like postdoc e: hhh . grad c: no one really says `` argh , `` you know , postdoc e: phd g: yeah . right , no one say grad c: it 's not professor f: well , you just did . phd b: except for now ! grad c: well , there 's another there 's another word error . grad d: postdoc e: yeah . that 's right . grad d: yes , that 's right . we 're gon na have a big problem when we talk about that . grad c: cha - ching . phd g: ah . phd b: we 're gon na never recognize this meeting . grad d: in monty python you say `` argh `` a lot . postdoc e: ok . grad c: oh yeah ? grad d: so . well , or if you 're a c programmer . grad c: mmm . grad d: you say arg - c and arg - v all the time . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . grad c: that 's true . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah phd g: but it has a different prosody . professor f: arg . grad d: it does . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: arg arg - max , arg - min , yeah . grad d: ah ! postdoc e: uh , phd g: so , jane , what 's the d grad d: maybe he died while dictating . postdoc e: so . phd g: i have one question about the the `` eh `` versus like the `` ah `` and the `` uh `` . postdoc e: that 's partly a nonnative - native thing , phd g: ok . postdoc e: but i have found `` eh `` in native speakers too . phd g: postdoc e: but it 's mostly non - native phd a: h phd b: that 's `` eh `` versus `` ah `` ? phd g: s ok . postdoc e: eh . grad d: eh ? phd g: `` eh , `` yeah right , cuz there were were some speakers that did definite `` eh 's `` postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but right now we phd b: they were the canadians , right ? professor f: canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . phd g: so , it it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real `` eh `` and the one that 's just like `` uh `` or transcribed `` aaa `` postdoc e: exactly . phd g: cuz in like in switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like `` uh `` . grad d: you mean just the single letter `` a `` { comment } as in the particle ? phd a: the transcription or grad d: article . phd g: no , no , i mean like the the `` uh `` , postdoc e: `` uh `` . grad d: oh . phd g: or the `` uh `` , `` eh `` , `` ah `` were all the same . and then , we have this additional non - native version of uh , like `` eeh `` . grad c: all the `` eh `` 's i 've seen have been like that . they 've been like `` eh `` like that have bee has been transcribed to `` eh `` . and sometimes it 's stronger , postdoc e: mm - hmm , that 's right . grad c: like `` eeh `` { comment } which is like closer to `` eh `` . postdoc e: mmm . phd g: right . grad c: but . grad d: i 'm just these poor transcribers , they 're gon na hate this meeting . postdoc e: yeah . grad c: i know . we should go off - line . postdoc e: well , we 're not doing we 're not doing length . professor f: quick thilo , do a do a filled pause for us . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . phd a: ooo { comment } no . phd g: but you 're a native german speaker so it 's not a not a issue for phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's only grad d: them canadians . phd g: onl yeah . no , only if you do n't have lax vowels , i guess . grad d: oh . phd g: right . postdoc e: this makes sense . phd g: so it 's like japanese and spanish postdoc e: yeah i i think you 've uh - huh , yeah . grad d: oh i see . professor f: uh - huh . phd g: and grad d: i did n't get that , postdoc e: that makes sense . grad d: ok . postdoc e: yeah , and so , you know , i mean , th th i have there are some , um , americans who who are using this `` eh `` too , and i have n't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being `` uh 's `` but , uh , i my spot - checking has made me think that we do have `` eh `` in also , um , american e e data represented here . but any case , that 's the this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list , phd g: yeah this is great . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah , it 's good , postdoc e: and this is grad d: yeah . phd g: this is really really helpful . postdoc e: functionally pretty , you know , also it was fascinating , i was listening to some of these , uh , i guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to to do a search for the `` mm - hmm 's `` . and you get `` mm - hmm `` and diff everybody 's doing it . grad d: and just listen to them ? yeah . postdoc e: just i wanted to say i w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a `` mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: performance art , postdoc e: mm - hmm . `` grad d: just extract them all . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's really it 's really fun to listen to . phd b: morgan can make a song out of it . postdoc e: all these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's it 's the same item . it 's very interesting . ok . uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber was n't sure of , grad d: oh i see . postdoc e: and i have n't been able to listen to to to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them grad d: o how about question mark ? postdoc e: cuz it 's the only place where where they 're used . phd a: the question marks , yeah . what are those ? postdoc e: question mark is punctuation . so it they said that @ @ grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: oh . postdoc e: um , `` dc ? `` phd a: ah . grad d: so they so it 's `` plp ? `` postdoc e: exactly . exactly . yeah , so the only well , and i do have a stress marker here . sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um professor f: i 'm sorry , i i got lost here . what - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ? postdoc e: the parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ann , but was n't entirely sure . so i 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no , professor f: ah . postdoc e: and then get rid of the parentheses . phd g: right . postdoc e: but the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain . grad d: yeah , p - make is phd g: yeah i mean cuz they they have no idea , grad d: that 's a good one . that 's correct . phd g: right . if you hear ctpd , i mean , they do pretty well professor f: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: but it 's professor f: i i do n't recognize a lot of these . phd g: you know how are how are they gon na know ? grad c: yeah . grad d: i know ! i i was saying that i think a lot of them are the networks meeting . professor f: i postdoc e: i think that 's true . professor f: maybe . postdoc e: yeah , absolutely . grad d: i see a few . postdoc e: nsa , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: a lot of these are are coming from them . i listened to some of that . grad c: yeah , we do n't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting . grad d: although i see i see plenty of uh postdoc e: yeah . yeah . i agree . grad c: it 's not so bad . phd g: right . postdoc e: and robustness has a fair amount , phd a: yeah . grad c: mmm . postdoc e: but the nsa group is just very very many . phd g: the recognizer , it is funny . kept getting pta for pda . grad d: yeah , that 's pretty close . professor f: yeah . phd g: this is close , right , grad c: that 's not bad . phd g: and the pta was in these , uh , topics about children , postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , anyway . postdoc e: that 's interesting . phd g: is the p - pta working ? postdoc e: right and sometimes , i mean , you see a couple of these that are actually `` ok 's `` so it 's it 's may be that they got to the point where i mean it was low enough understandable understandability that they were n't entirely sure the person said `` ok . `` you know , so it is n't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym , grad c: there 's a lot of `` ok 's `` . postdoc e: but just n needs to be double checked . now we get to the comments . this professor f: the number to the left is the number of incidences ? grad d: count . yep . postdoc e: number of times out of the entire database , professor f: uh - huh . postdoc e: w except for that last thirty minutes i have n't checked yet . professor f: so cts is really big here , grad d: yeah , i wonder what it is . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd a: so what is the difference between `` papers rustling `` and `` rustling papers `` ? professor f: ip , i know what ip is . postdoc e: i 'd have to listen . i i i agree . i w i 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: but , i i 'm a little hesitant to to collapse across categories unless i actually listen to them . phd a: seems so . professor f: ok . grad d: oh i 'm sure we 've said xml more than five times . postdoc e: well , then , at least now . phd a: now it 's at least six times , yeah . professor f: s s six now , yeah . postdoc e: yeah . six . ok well professor f: wh - the self - referential aspect of these these p phd g: i 'm wai grad c: yeah . grad d: yes , it 's very bad . phd g: well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ? grad d: yes . phd g: y no normally you do n't go around saying , `` now you 've said it six times . grad d: yeah { comment } that 's right . phd g: now you 've said `` postdoc e: but did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of `` ok `` ? phd a: seven hundred eighty - five instances . postdoc e: and that 's just without the without punc punctuation . grad c: yeah . grad d: yep . professor f: no , i did n't . yeah . grad d: and that 's an underestimate postdoc e: extra forty one if it 's questioned . phd b: where 's that ? grad d: cuz they 're yep . professor f: so th postdoc e: on the page two of acronyms . grad c: is this after like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of `` ok `` to this ? professor f: yeah . seven hundred eighty . postdoc e: yeah . of `` ok `` , yes . grad c: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . so that 's the single existing convention for `` ok `` . phd b: wait a minute , w s professor f: so now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight . postdoc e: yeah that 's grad c: although , what 's there 's one with a slash after it . that 's kind of disturbing . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know . postdoc e: that 's that 's i looked for that one . phd g: yeah . grad c: anyway . postdoc e: i actually explicitly looked for that one , grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think that , um , i i 'm not exactly sure about that . phd b: was that somewhere where they were gon na say `` new speaker `` or something ? postdoc e: no , i looked for that , but that does n't actually exist . and it may be , i do n't i ca n't explain that . grad c: that 's alright . i 'm just pointing that out . postdoc e: i i it 's the only grad c: there 's postdoc e: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and i think it 's it 's an epiphenomenon . phd g: well there 's not @ @ . grad d: so i 'll just i was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that `` to be `` or `` not to be `` . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: there 's no tilde in front of it , postdoc e: oh that 's cute . phd b: so . postdoc e: that 's funny . yeah . grad d: ok anyways , sorry . postdoc e: ok . grad d: `` try to stay on topic , adam . `` postdoc e: there is th one y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . so now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes . grad d: ok so , um , on some of these quals , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: are they really quals , or are they glosses ? so like there 's a `` qual tcl `` . postdoc e: `` tcl `` . where do you see that ? grad d: uh postdoc e: oh , oh . the reason is because w it was said `` tickle `` . professor f: what 's a qual ? grad d: oh i see , i see . grad c: hmm . grad d: so it 's not gloss . ok , i see . postdoc e: yep . grad c: sh - should n't it be `` qual tickle `` or something ? grad d: it was n't said `` tcl `` . of course . grad c: like it 's not postdoc e: on the in the actual script in the actual transcript , i s i so this this happens in the very first one . grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i actually wrote it as `` tickle `` . grad c: ok . postdoc e: because we they did n't say `` tcl `` , they said `` tickle `` . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and then , following that is `` qual tcl `` . phd g: right . grad c: oh i see . ok . professor f: i f i forget , what 's qual ? postdoc e: qual - qualifier . phd b: it 's just comment about what they said . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: comment . grad c: it 's not something you wan na replace with postdoc e: comment or contextual comment . phd b: so they did n't mean `` tickle `` as in elmo , grad c: but phd a: tickle ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they meant `` tickle `` as in grad d: yeah . phd g: huh . professor f: right . phd g: but at some point i mean , we probably shoul grad d: we 'll probably add it to the language model . phd g: but we should add it to the dictionar grad d: yeah . phd g: no , to the pronunciation model . grad d: what did i say ? phd a: to the language model model . phd g: language , uh grad d: well both . phd b: add what , liz ? grad d: we can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model . phd g: oh lan oh ok - we ok phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of `` tickle `` . grad d: well `` tickle `` was pronounced `` tickle `` . right ? phd a: `` tickle `` is pronounced `` tickle `` ? phd b: what are you saying ? grad d: it 's pronounced the same it 's pronounced the same as the verb . phd g: i 'm sorry ! grad d: so i think it 's the language model that makes it different . phd g: oh , sorry . what i meant is that there should be a pronunciation `` tickle `` for tcl as a word . phd a: yeah . grad d: oh i see . phd g: and that word in the in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: right . right . professor f: right . phd g: yeah you never would put `` tickle `` in the language model in that form , postdoc e: grad d: right . phd g: yeah . right . there 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and phd b: so how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are . phd g: yes . yeah . yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . tcl 's one of them . grad d: and and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously . phd g: um , y yeah . grad d: right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously . grad c: it 's just disturbing . phd g: right . phd b: hmm . phd g: right . we have this there is this thing i was gon na talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the like spelling people 's names and so forth . if we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had deborah tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it , grad d: you can correct it . yeah . phd g: but but we need to make sure we have the mispel if it does n't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: things like that . grad d: these are so funny to read . postdoc e: well , of course now the the tannen corre the spelling c change . phd g: so . postdoc e: uh , that 's what gets i i picked those up in the frequency check . phd g: right . right . so if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's it 's not an issue , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our the dictionary up to date . and then , yeah , in the case of `` tickle `` i guess we would just have a , you know , word `` tcl `` which phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: you add it to the dictionary . phd g: which normally would be an acronym , you know , `` tcl `` grad d: right . phd g: but just has another pronunciation . grad d: yep . postdoc e: `` icsi `` is is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say `` icsi . `` grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , i actually know phd g: oh yeah . postdoc e: they were said as letters . the others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz i have n't been able to go to all the ic icsi things , phd g: right , exactly . postdoc e: and { comment } and until they 've been listened to they stay as `` icsi `` . grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: right . professor f: don and i were just noticing , love this one over on page three , `` vocal vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . `` grad c: that 's great . grad d: it 's this , `` rrre - rrre - rrre `` . it was me . postdoc e: it was ! in fact , it was ! yeah ! grad d: a lot of these are me the the `` beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . `` postdoc e: he he s he said he said get phd a: to head . grad d: that was the i was imitating uh , beeping out postdoc e: yeah , that 's it . professor f: beep . postdoc e: perfect . yeah that 's it . professor f: yeah . phd g: oh there is something spelled out `` beeeeeep `` grad c: um postdoc e: that 's it . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , that 's that 's been changed . phd g: in the old thank you . because he was saying , `` how many e 's do i have to allow for ? `` grad c: you need a lot of grad d: what i meant was `` beep `` . grad c: you need a lot of qualification adam . grad d: i guess so . postdoc e: that 's been changed . so , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in . grad c: subtext . grad d: anyway . postdoc e: s chan brought it down . phd g: right , thanks , yeah . grad d: so they 're vocalization , phd g: right . postdoc e: and those of course get get picked up in the frequency check grad d: glosses . postdoc e: because you see `` beep `` phd g: right . postdoc e: and you know i mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing . phd g: right . right . postdoc e: i have the there 're various things like `` breathe `` versus `` breath `` versus `` inhale `` and , hhh , you know , i do n't know . i i think they do n't have any implications for anything else so it 's like i 'm tempted to leave them for now an and it 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . we can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them . phd g: yeah . professor f: `` sings finale - type song `` grad c: yeah , that was in the first meeting . professor f: that 's that 's good . phd g: yeah . grad d: um , postdoc e: yeah , but i do n't actually remember what it was . but that was eric did that . professor f: yeah . grad d: so on postdoc e: yeah . professor f: tah - dah ! i do n't know . postdoc e: i think maybe something like that . professor f: something like that maybe , yeah . postdoc e: well , that 'd qualify . grad d: on the glosses for numbers , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done . postdoc e: ok . interesting question . grad d: there 's a postdoc e: yes . ok , now first of all ooo - ooo ! very important . grad d: `` ooo - ooo . `` postdoc e: uh chuck chuck led to a refinement here which is to add `` nums `` if these are parts of the read numbers . now you already know i that i had , uh , in places where they had n't transcribed numbers , i put `` numbers `` in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . and , um , d chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . and that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five or three hundred and five times right now which is just well n n `` nums `` by itself grad d: `` nums `` , yeah . postdoc e: which means this is part of the numbers task . i may change it to `` digits `` . i mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ? grad d: yep . postdoc e: have to think about what 's the best for for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , `` numbers `` and `` nums `` are a part of this digits task thing . um , now th then i have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . um , i did n't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . and actually , th um , the reason i b did it this way was because i initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . so you say , `` seve - seventy eight point two `` , or whatever . and there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . you ca n't have the seven and grad d: so what 's to the left of these ? postdoc e: the left is i so example the very first one , grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it would be , spelled out in words , `` point five `` . grad d: ok , that 's what i was asking . right . postdoc e: only it 's spelled out in words . grad d: point five , yeah . postdoc e: so i this is also spelled out in in words . `` point five . `` grad d: good . postdoc e: and then , in here , `` nums `` , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . it comes out as `` nums quote dot five `` . grad d: ok now , the other example is , in the glosses right there , postdoc e: thank you . grad d: `` gloss one one one dash one three zero `` . grad c: right . grad d: what what 's to the left of that ? postdoc e: well now in that case it 's people saying things like `` one one one dash so - and - so `` or they 're saying uh `` two i mean zero `` whatever . grad d: ok . postdoc e: and in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gon na be included in the read digits anyway , phd b: so there will be a `` nums `` tag on those lines ? postdoc e: so i m in the uh there is . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . i 've added that all now too . grad c: there 's a `` numbers `` tag grad d: good . grad c: i 'm sorry i 'm i did n't follow that last thing . phd g: wait . postdoc e: so , so gloss in the same line that would have `` gloss quote one one one dash one thirty `` , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , `` curly bracket nums curly bracket `` . grad c: right . postdoc e: so if you if you did a , uh , a `` grep minus v nums `` phd g: oh , so you could do `` grep minus v nums `` . postdoc e: and you get rid of anything that was read . phd g: so that 's the yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: so there would n't be something like i if somebody said something like , `` boy , i 'm really tired , ok . `` and then started reading that would be on a separate line ? postdoc e: yes . phd g: ok great . cuz i was doing the `` grep minus v `` quick and dirty and looked like that was working ok , postdoc e: mm - hmm . good . phd g: but postdoc e: yep . phd g: great . now why do we what 's the reason for having like the point five have the `` nums `` on it ? is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ? postdoc e: this is more because phd g: or postdoc e: yeah . oh these are all these , the `` nums point `` , this all where they 're saying `` point `` something or other . phd g: these are all like inside the spontaneous postdoc e: and the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . i mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know eh , `` so in the data column five has `` , you know , `` one point five compared to seventy nine point six `` , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . and this is just really a a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said . grad d: label it . phd g: oh ok . postdoc e: so this is where chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in , phd g: i see . postdoc e: where we 're gon na have a master file of the channelized data . um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis . and , um , the implication that that i have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . these will just be things that are generated , grad d: right postdoc e: and e by using scripts . phd g: ok . grad d: master copies of superset . postdoc e: when things change then the the script will cham change but the but there wo n't be stored copies of in different versions of things . grad d: good . phd g: so , i guess i 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of `` nums `` { comment } where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech . phd b: right . right . that would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something . phd g: um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we do n't see the `` point five `` , or or it 's not there , then we phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: a just an and actually for things like `` seven eighths `` , or people do fractions too i guess , you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that , postdoc e: except phd g: or as long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust . postdoc e: well phd g: cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` nums `` string in it . phd b: i suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace nums curly brace `` . postdoc e: well ex - exactly . phd b: i mean that would be the postdoc e: exactly . that was that was my motivation . and i these can be changed , like i said . phd g: yeah . postdoc e: you know , i mean , as i said i was considering changing it to `` digits `` . and , it just i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know . phd b: right . phd g: it would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . and we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . but you 're right , we could do it this way , it it should work . um , phd b: yeah , and it makes it i guess the thing about phd g: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference phd b: yeah . phd g: because one 's in the context of a you know , a transcribed word string , phd b: right . postdoc e: the other thing is you can get really so minute with these things phd g: and so postdoc e: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` . now i i could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ? grad d: hmm . postdoc e: i it 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are and we could always add it later . percent 's easy to detect . point however is is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . and you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying `` well the first point i wan na make is so - and - so `` and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals . phd b: so liz , what does the recognizer do , postdoc e: so . phd b: uh , professor f: hmm . phd b: what does the sri recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` . does it output the word phd g: `` seven point five `` . phd b: right , the word `` seven `` ? grad d: well , the numbers ? phd b: the number `` seven `` ? phd g: the word . phd b: the word `` seven `` , ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: so i 'd so `` i 'd like i 'd like to talk about point five `` . phd g: and and actually , you know the language professor f: yeah . phd g: it 's the same point , actually , the the p you know , the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to 's `` and so there 's no distinction there . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: it 's just just the word `` point `` has yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if even if it 's a actually even like the word `` read `` { comment } and `` read `` those are two different words . they 're spelled the same way , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: and they 're still gon na be transcribed as read . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd g: so , yeah , i i like the idea of having this in there , i just i was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech because i what if we have like `` read letters `` or , i do n't know , grad d: we might wan na just a separate tag that says it 's read . phd g: like `` read something `` like `` read `` grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah , basically . but other than that i it sounds great . grad d: yeah . ok ? are we done ? postdoc e: well i wanted to say also regarding the channelized data , grad d: oh , i guess we 're not done . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that , um , thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was chuc - chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you if you said , `` oh `` and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one grad d: well postdoc e: as for the longer utterances , grad d: we did that for one meeting , right , postdoc e: and grad d: so you have that data do n't you ? phd a: yeah , that 's the training data . postdoc e: and he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: he gave me he did the very nice , he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . and at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . in addition the i 've i have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually . phd a: oh great . postdoc e: so right now , um , i know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and i 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started . phd a: oh great . ok . postdoc e: but if if you know , and i and he 's gon na give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose . phd a: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: because it 's true , i mean , if we could do the the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . and , um . so this is gon na be useful to expand this . phd a: so i i thought we we sh we sh perhaps we should try to to start with those channelized versions just to just to try it . give it give one tr transcriber the the channelized version of of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if if that 's better or if they if they can postdoc e: you mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ? phd a: yeah . yeah . yeah . postdoc e: that 'd be excellent . yeah , that 'd be really great . as it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time uh , aligned . i also wan na tell um , i also wanted to r raise the issue that ok so , there 's this idea we 're gon na have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gon na be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . and actually the master phd b: two or more . two or more different functions . postdoc e: two two or more . and that the master is gon na be the channelized version . phd b: right . postdoc e: so right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . and now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . but i wanted to get all the finished all the checks phd b: yeah , so that has implications for your script . grad c: yeah . so , uh , have those e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? and i know i 've seen @ @ i 've seen they 've been channelized , postdoc e: yes , they have . grad d: all ten hours ? grad c: but postdoc e: except for the missing thirty minutes . grad c: have they uh have they been has the time have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel grad d: great . postdoc e: uh , for for a total of like twenty m f for a total of let 's see , four times total of about an thirty minutes . that 's that 's been the case . grad c: so , postdoc e: and plus the training , whatever you have . grad c: i guess , i mean , i do n't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but i grad d: well it 's just we 're missing tea . grad c: yeah , i know . grad d: so . grad c: no , but i mean my question is like should i wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before i do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the into the our layer of uh transcripts . postdoc e: well , you know the problem the problem is that some some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring are to combine bins that were time bins which were previously separate . and the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off . grad c: right . postdoc e: and so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . and , grad c: ok . no i know i know that adjusting those things are gon na is gon na make it better . postdoc e: so i it 's gon na be a more reliable thing and i 'm not sure grad c: i mean i 'm sure about that , postdoc e: yeah . grad c: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or postdoc e: well partly it depends on how um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time , grad c: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes . grad c: yeah , i do n't doubt it . um , so . phd b: so right now the what you 're doing is you 're taking the uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ? grad c: yeah . i 'm doing it myself . i mean i if the time markings are n't different across channels , like the channelized version really does n't have any more information . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , i was just i mean , originally i had done before like the channelized versions were coming out . phd b: right . right . grad c: um , phd b: so i i th i think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals . grad c: and so it 's a question of like what mm - hmm . mm - hmm . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on . postdoc e: yep . mm - hmm . grad c: right . phd b: um , so postdoc e: yeah , i mean phd b: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated postdoc e: yeah . phd b: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions . grad c: ok . phd b: but the i guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that , grad c: i know . phd b: so , maybe grad c: right . postdoc e: but that phd g: but that that 's not hard . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad c: no . phd g: i i think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription phd b: ok . phd g: so if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you do n't where the word which words moved . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd g: and that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit uh , having to rerun the processing . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: the cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial . grad c: yeah . i mean as long as it can all be done automatically , i mean , then that 's not a concern . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , if i just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem . phd g: right . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: um , so yeah . as long as we 're at that point . and i know exactly like what the steps will work what 's going on , in the editing process , phd b: yeah . grad c: so . ok . postdoc e: so that 's i i mean i could there were other checks that i did , but it 's i think that we 've unless you think there 's anything else , i think that i 've covered it . professor f: yeah . phd b: i ca n't think of any of the other ones . postdoc e: ok . great . professor f: ok . grad d: oop ! man !

future work may involve experimenting with the reading of digits in different prosodic groupings .

what was said on the status of transcription ? </s> grad d: and we already got the crash out of the way . it did crash , so i feel much better , earlier . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: interesting . hmm . professor f: will you get the door , and ? grad d: ok , so um . professor f: ok . you collected an agenda , huh ? grad d: i did collect an agenda . so i 'm gon na go first . mwa - ha - ha ! it should n't take too long . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . we 've gone once through the set . um , so the only thing i have to do professor f: no there 's only ten . grad d: yeah , that 's right . so i i just have to go through them professor f: well , ok . grad d: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . so we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . i 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . we have about two hours worth . i extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . so i extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the `` key `` file and the transcript files are parsable . some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and i have to go back and fix those . so what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . um , liz professor f: so you think two you think two hours is the is the total that we have ? grad d: yep , yeah . professor f: and you think we th uh , i i did n't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ? grad d: yes , absolutely . professor f: ok . grad d: so it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . i have this web - based speaker form , and i sent mail to everyone who had n't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in . professor f: so the relevance of the speaker form here , s grad d: it 's for labeling the extracted audio files . professor f: oh , ok . grad d: by speaker id and microphone type . professor f: was n't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something . grad d: no , i spoke with jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that we edit out any of the errors anyway . right ? so the there are no errors in the digits , professor f: yeah . grad d: you 'll always read the string correctly . so i ca n't imagine why anyone would care . so the other topic with digits is uh , liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in english . and it just did n't work at all because no one grouped them together . so it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . so in conversations with liz and uh jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . the problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . when i look at this , that first line is `` sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . `` um , and so the question is does anyone care ? um , i 've already spoken with liz and she feels that , correct me if i 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: as opposed to connected digits . um , i think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wan na do training and adaptation and all that other stuff . professor f: yeah um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you would n't like that ? is that correct ? phd g: well , we actually figured out a way to grad d: yeah , the the phd g: the the groupings are randomly generated . professor f: no but , i was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was n't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would n't , uh , go and do numbers so much . you know if it if it 's phd a: uh phd g: i think they may still do it , um , professor f: maybe some , but i probably not so much . phd b: what about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? phd g: and professor f: right ? so if you if if you have uh grad d: six dash one , you mean ? professor f: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one . phd g: i well ok i it might help , i would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping . professor f: that 's what i was asking , yeah . phd g: um , so if that 's your question , professor f: yeah . phd g: but i mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits postdoc e: yeah . phd g: if that 's what people want . i i 'm postdoc e: yeah . phd g: do n't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data , grad d: right . phd g: and that 's always a good thing . grad d: yep . phd g: it 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . they 're better trained than the numbers . grad d: so we could just , uh , put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` . professor f: right . phd g: right . right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: and if people make a mistake we grad d: how about `` o `` versus `` zero `` ? professor f: i mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's it 's it 's - i 'm not worrying about it i mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from ogi . i 'm sorry , digits numbers training that we have from ogi , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . and um . phd g: but it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean for it 's professor f: no , no , i guess what i 'm saying is that grad d: just let them read it how they read it . professor f: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have . phd g: right . well that 's fine with me as long as it 's just that i did n't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits . professor f: yeah . we can go back to the other thing later . phd g: so professor f: i mean we s we we 've we can do this for awhile phd g: ok . professor f: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . do yo i mean , do you want do you want this do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? phd g: ok . professor f: how much of this do you need ? with uh the phd g: it 's actually unclear right now . i just thought well we 're if we 're collec collecting digits , and adam had said we were running out of the ti forms , i thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits professor f: ok . phd g: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gon na do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . so we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general . professor f: ok , well if you pre phd g: but if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one oo `` . and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` o `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` o `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context , professor f: yeah . phd g: and that 's sort of interesting . so i do n't have a specific need cuz if i did i 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but if we can try it grad d: ok so so i can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: right , and you can give an example like , you know , `` six sixty - one would be read as six one `` . grad d: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . and i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words . phd g: and i think people will get it . postdoc e: i 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single . phd g: right , right . postdoc e: the spaces already bias it toward being separated . phd g: it 's just easier to read . postdoc e: and i know i 'm gon na find this easier than words . phd g: right . grad d: oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier . phd g: ok i also had a hard hard time with the words , professor f: yeah . phd g: but then we went back and forth on that . ok , so let 's give that a try grad d: ok . and is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ? professor f: ok . phd g: and grad d: or is that alright ? phd g: i mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading { comment } them . postdoc e: i think that i it 's fine . grad d: ok . postdoc e: i it it to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation phd g: ok . postdoc e: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all . phd g: great . ok . grad d: and i think there are about ten different gouping patterns professor f: let 's try it . phd g: well let 's give it a try . grad d: is n't that right , liz ? that we did . phd g: righ - right , and you just they 're randomly generated and randomly assigned to digits . postdoc e: i did mm - hmm . professor f: so we have postdoc e: go ahead . professor f: sorry , i i was just gon na say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now . and you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then , grad d: yep . professor f: something like twenty twenty to one . which i guess makes makes sense . so if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this . grad d: right . professor f: um , yeah like you say , i think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set 's ok . it 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll we might use use this up , uh , in some sense , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: right . professor f: but but uh postdoc e: yeah , i also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank . grad d: right . postdoc e: hmm ? cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . and i think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally american speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database . grad d: right . i think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing ti - digits probably is n't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different . professor f: yeah . grad d: it 's gon na be very hard to be comparable . postdoc e: except that if you have the stimuli comparable , then it says something about the the contribution of setting professor f: no it 's it 's not the same . postdoc e: and professor f: a little bit , but the other differences are so major . grad d: yeah i mean read versus not . postdoc e: ok . professor f: they 're such major sources of variance that it 's it 's it 's uh postdoc e: what 's an example of a of m some of the other differences ? any other a difference ? professor f: well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one , postdoc e: ok . professor f: you know , it 's just there 's so many things . grad d: well , and not just that , postdoc e: ok . professor f: it 's it and and enunciation . grad d: i mean the uh the corpus itself . i mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and i 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . i mean if i remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that . professor f: ti - digits was ? grad d: i thought so . professor f: i thought i thought it was read . grad d: was it read ? professor f: yeah , i think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be ogi . grad d: oh , i may well be . professor f: yeah , no ti - digits was read in th in read in the studio i believe . grad d: i have n't ever listened to ti - digits . so i do n't really know how it compares . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: but but regardless it 's gon na it 's hard to compare cross - corpus . professor f: but it but it - it 's different people is the is the core thing . grad d: so . postdoc e: ok , fine . professor f: and they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's it 's it 's really pretty different . but i think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you could n't do exact comparisons , it would n't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . uh , you know it 's not phd b: hey liz , what what do the groupings represent ? postdoc e: ok . phd b: you said there 's like ten different groupings ? phd g: right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings . phd b: mm - hmm . are the patterns like are they based on anything or phd g: um , i i just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time . phd b: oh . phd g: and they can have , i mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . in the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . so , there 's between , um well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and i purposely did n't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern . phd b: mmm . phd g: so grad d: and which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly . phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: so unlike the previous one , which i d simply replicated ti - digits , this is generated randomly . phd g: right . phd a: oh ok . phd b: mmm , oh , ok . phd g: but i think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or ti - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: and , i mean so it 's it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . especially for speakers that do n't talk a lot . grad d: yeah . phd g: so um , for adaptation . no , i 'm serious , phd a: yeah . grad d: yeah all we have for some people is digits . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know grad d: oh , you 're not . phd g: not for adaptation , nope . v w we 're not we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and i 'd as soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and i thought `` well , we 're gon na do better on that , grad d: oh i see . phd g: that 's not fair to use `` . grad d: oh yeah that 's true , absolutely . phd a: ok . phd g: but , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . so those speakers who are very quiet , { comment } shy grad d: that would be interesting to see whether that helps . phd g: r right phd b: like adam ? grad d: do you think that would help adapting on yeah . yeah , i have a real problem with that . professor f: yeah . phd g: well , it sh i mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the in the same meeting , grad d: right . same same acoustics , professor f: yeah . phd g: and so you do n't get grad d: same microphone , phd a: yeah . grad d: same channel . phd g: right , and so i still like the idea of having some kind of digit data . grad d: ok . good . professor f: yeah i mean , for the for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , i see it as as as the place that we start . but , th i mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but but uh the truth is i 'm hoping that we we through the the stuff that that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . so . postdoc e: great . phd g: the only thing that we do n't have , i know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we do n't have any overlapping digits . grad d: yeah , we talked about that a couple times . phd g: an - yea i know it 's weird , but um phd a: overlapping digits ! grad d: the the problem i see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load . phd g: alright everybody 's laughing . ok . grad c: dueling digits . grad d: no it 's it 's not stupid , it 's just i mean , try to do it . phd g: i 'm just talkin for the stuff that like dan ellis is gon na try , grad d: i mean , here , let 's try it . phd g: you know , cross - talk cancellation . grad d: you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: let 's try it . phd g: ok . phd a: oh ! phd g: wait oh it these are all the same forms . professor f: sixty - one . phd g: ok { comment } so but grad d: so so you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: no , i 'll p phd g: so you plu you plug your ears . grad d: oh i guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you do n't get the the same effects . phd a: yeah . phd g: well , what i mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people grad d: yeah . phd g: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like dan ellis and and company want to do . grad d: oh i see . phd g: digits are nice and well behaved , i mean grad d: i guess we could try . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . grad d: we could try doing some . phd g: it it would go faster . phd b: parallel . phd g: it would take one around { comment } amount of ti phd b: it 's the p - make of digit reading . grad d: well well ok . well let 's try it . phd g: that 's right . i i mea i 'm i was sort of serious , but i really , i mean , i 'm i do n't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea , professor f: see , y grad d: you do the last line , i 'll do the first line . phd g: so . professor f: ok . grad d: o . { comment } that 's not bad . professor f: no , i can do it . phd b: i could n't understand a single thing you guys were saying . phd g: a and that prosody was great , by the way . postdoc e: i think it was numbers , but i 'm not sure . phd g: it it sort of sounded like a duet , or something . phd a: yeah . phd b: performance art . professor f: alright , let 's try three at once you you pick one in the middle . phd a: the aurora theater . phd g: ok . professor f: go . phd g: i 'm sorry . i 'm mean i think it 's doable , grad d: the poor transcribers phd g: i 'm just grad d: they 're gon na hate us . phd g: so , we we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something . phd a: so pairwise . professor f: oh like a round , yeah , like in a a phd g: like a , phd a: yeah , just pairwise , professor f: yeah . phd g: what do you call it ? phd a: or yeah . grad c: round . grad d: a round . professor f: row , row , row your boat . phd g: li - a r like grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , like that . professor f: ok . phd b: it 's gon na require some coordination . phd g: then it would go like h twice as fast , or a third as fast . postdoc e: you have to have a similar pace . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . professor f: yeah . phd g: i 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wan na work on it we should talk to them . professor f: i do n't think we 're gon na collect vast amounts of data that way , phd g: so . grad d: mmm . professor f: but i think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like dan to play around with , phd g: ok . grad d: i think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad d: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . so . phd g: can try it out . grad d: see see what dan thinks . phd g: if we have nothing if we have no agenda we could do it some week . grad d: yeah , right . professor f: yeah , yeah . spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities . phd g: ok . grad d: i thought this was gon na be fast . postdoc e: c c can i can i have an another another question w about this ? grad d: oh well . postdoc e: so , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . like `` wonderful `` has `` one `` in it and and victor borge had a had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . well , i wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of `` one `` in `` wonderful `` versus `` one `` as a digit being read . professor f: that 's `` two `` bad . yeah . phd g: i 'm all `` four `` it . postdoc e: there you go . grad d: not after i `` eight `` though . professor f: uh , they do n't all work as well , do they ? hmm . what does nine work in ? grad c: nein ! grad d: uh . professor f: uh , grad c: you scream it . grad d: nein ! you have to be german , professor f: oh . in german , phd a: that 's german , yeah . phd b: it 's great for the germans . professor f: yeah . grad d: yeah . phd g: oh , oh ! postdoc e: nein . professor f: that 's right ! phd a: yeah . grad d: oh ! grad c: it only sounds w good when you scream it , though . so . professor f: i think everybody 's a little punchy here today . postdoc e: well , i mean , i just wanted to offer that as a possible task professor f: yes . postdoc e: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and i would n't take the inflated version . so he talks about the woman being `` two - derful `` , and and a but , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read . professor f: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i do n't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers . grad d: i think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh timit . professor f: well i do n't know . well i think the question is what the research is , so i mean , i presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here . grad d: hmm . professor f: yeah ok . phd g: right , yeah . professor f: so if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the the the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits a a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but i think someone would have to express interest in that . postdoc e: i see . ok . professor f: i think , to i mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance . postdoc e: ok , thank you . grad d: ok , are we done with digits ? postdoc e: huh . grad d: um , we have asr results from liz , transcript status from jane , and disk space and storage formats from don . does do we have any prefer preference on which way we wan na we wan na go ? phd g: well i was actually gon na skip the asr results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: since i think that 's more important to moving forward , but i mean morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of asr results because we did n't do anything fancy , but i think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . and then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the on the close - talking mikes . phd a: so these grad d: um , why do n't you , if you have a hard copy , why do n't you email it to the list . phd g: so , that 's about the summary but this is morgan has this paper . phd a: yeah , yeah . grad d: oh it 's in the paper . professor f: yeah , so it 's the same thing ? phd g: i mean he he professor f: it 's the same thing i mailed to every everybody that w where it was , phd g: it it 's that paper . grad d: ok . phd g: yeah , yeah . grad d: ok then , it 's already been mailed . phd g: so , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that professor f: yeah . phd g: and it 's let 's see , th i guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad . grad d: horrible ? phd g: and it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech . phd a: so , your your asr results were run on the channels synchronized , phd g: yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time , phd a: ok . ok . ok . phd g: um but as we i mean i wanted to here more about the transcription . if we can get the channel asynchronous or the phd a: yeah . phd g: the closer t that would be very interesting for us phd b: so if phd g: because we professor f: yeah , that 's that 's why i only used the part from use phd a: yeah . professor f: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels phd a: yeah . phd g: right . that 's phd a: yeah sure . yeah . professor f: or mixed channel phd a: yeah . professor f: rather mixed signal . phd b: so if there was a segment of speech this long phd g: cuz phd a: yeah . phd b: and oh and someone said `` oh , `` the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ? grad d: and someone said `` oh `` in the front in the middle . phd a: there were several speakers in it , yeah . phd g: that 's right . in fact i i pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wan na u use them in your talk of phd b: that 's why there 's so many insertion errors ? grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: chuck on the lapel , so chuck wore the lapel three out of four times . grad c: mmm . grad d: i noticed that chuck was wearing the lapel a lot . phd b: early on , yeah . phd g: um , yeah , and i wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was ok . i mean i still and i do n't know why . i 'm but um , grad d: probably how you wear it wore it i would guess . phd g: for you it was or who was next to me or something like that . grad c: yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it . phd a: yeah . phd g: right , but when chuck wore the lapel and morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion insertions are n't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate . grad d: uh - huh . phd a: yeah . phd g: and that 's that 's where the problems come in . so i this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to to show it . grad d: right . phd g: and also i just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh andreas and i called up dan ellis who 's still stuck in switzerland , and we were gon na ask him if if there 're you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . not that we were gon na do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done . grad d: and he said , `` lots lots lots lots . `` phd g: and he we 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap . phd a: yep . phd g: and he 's gon na look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do phd b: so phd g: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature . phd b: so so the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking { comment } based on the other peopl phd g: right . or who 's at any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker . phd a: so yeah phd b: i thought we were just gon na move the boundaries in . phd a: yeah , should it phd g: so . grad d: well that 's with the hand stuff . phd g: so there 's like grad d: but how would you do that automatically ? phd g: well ther there 's phd a: uh , i 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation phd b: right . phd a: and it seems to work pretty well to to get rid of those those overlaps , grad d: i mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do . professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad d: so . phd g: yeah . exactly , so it 's it 's a phd b: so why do you want to do echo cancellation ? phd g: um , it would be techniques used from adaptive adaptive echo cancellation which i do n't know enough about to talk about . phd b: uh - huh . professor f: it just it just to r to remove cross - talk . phd g: um . grad c: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: but , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy phd a: yeah . phd g: i i do n't know what exactly would go into it . phd a: yeah , sure . phd b: so it would be phd g: so the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak phd b: ok . so do sort of what he 's already what he 's trying to do . phd g: right . except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that . phd a: yeah , in another way , phd b: ok , i s i see . phd a: yeah . yeah . phd b: yeah . i see . professor f: yeah , dave dave uh is , um , also gon na be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff , phd g: so . professor f: so we 'll be phd g: and i guess espen ? this is uh is he here too ? professor f: yeah . phd g: may also be working so it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we ca n't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: um , until we can do that kind of processing . and so , once we have some some of yours , phd a: ok . yeah i 'm working on it . phd g: and @ @ we 'll move on . phd b: i think this also ties into one of the things that jane is gon na talk about too . grad d: um , phd g: ok . grad d: i also wanted to say i have done all this chopping up of digits , postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: so i have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . so let 's do that off - line , phd g: oh right . grad d: we do n't need to do it during the meeting . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: right . definitely grad d: and and i have scripts that will extract it out from `` key `` files phd g: uh , and don should grad d: and and do all the naming automatically , phd g: ok . grad c: alright . grad d: so you do n't have to do it by hand . phd g: great . grad c: you 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ? phd g: so that that 's it for the grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: speakers and ok . grad c: not names , but i ds . grad d: yep . yeah , names names in the names to i ds , grad c: ok . grad d: so you phd g: great . grad d: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match . phd g: right . grad c: cool . phd g: so at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth , grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . phd g: and we 're gon na basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your `` m o in one meeting and `` m o - two `` in another meeting and it 's we just need to standardize the grad c: yeah . that was my fault . phd g: um , no it 's it 's professor f: no , i did n't notice that actually . phd g: um , that 's why those comments are s are in there . grad c: yeah . then disregard it then . grad d: yep . so th i now have a script that you can just say basically look up morgan , phd g: so professor f: yeah . phd g: right . ok . grad d: and it will give you his id . phd g: great , great . grad c: ok . grad d: so . um , phd g: terrific . grad d: alright . do we don , you had disk space and storage formats . is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with chuck at some other time ? grad c: um , i had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and i do n't know exactly who to ask . i thought that maybe you would be the the person to talk to . so , is it a lossless compression { comment } when you compress , grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: so grad d: entropy coding . grad c: it just uses entropy coding ? grad d: so . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess my question would be is i just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . um , yeah , which is grad d: and i assume half of it is scratch and half of it is ? grad c: i 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it . grad d: probably , yeah . grad c: but um , professor f: that 's typical , huh . grad c: yeah , i do n't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so grad d: that does n't matter . grad c: but grad d: you can access it from anywhere in icsi . n grad c: ok . alright . how do you do that ? professor f: in fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , { comment } or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen grad d: n grad c: eighteen . phd g: eigh - eighteen . it was a spare that dave had around grad d: slash n slash machine name , slash x a in all likelihood . professor f: oh ok . grad c: oh i see . ok . alright , i did know that . grad d: um , so the the only question is how much of it the distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not . grad c: mm - hmm . right . grad d: so what you wan na do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate . grad c: ok . grad d: so , the stuff that is n't backed up is not a big deal because disks do n't crash very frequently , grad c: right . grad d: as long as you can regenerate it . grad c: right . i mean all of this stuff can be regenerated , phd g: yeah it 's grad c: it 's just a question grad d: then put it all on scratch phd g: well the grad d: because we 're icsi is is bottlenecked by backup . postdoc e: mm - hmm , very good point . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: so we wan na put phd g: well i 'd leave all the all the transcript stuff should n't should be backed up , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but all the waveform { comment } sound files should not be backed up , grad c: yeah , i guess right . phd g: the ones that you write out . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? um grad d: it just depends on your tools . i mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools ca n't take shortened format , i would leave them expanded , grad c: right . grad d: so you do n't have to unshorten them every single time you wan na do anything . grad c: ok . phd g: we can downsample them , grad c: do you think that 'd be ok ? phd g: so . grad c: to downsample them ? phd g: yeah . yeah , we get the same performance . grad c: ok . phd g: i mean the r the front - end on the sri recognizer just downsamples them on the fly , grad c: yeah , i guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques . phd g: so so that 's professor f: i i i 'm sorry phd g: yeah , if professor f: yeah , l i mean over all our data , we we want to not downsample . phd g: fe you 'd you wan na not . ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we 're what we 're doing is we 're writing out i mean , this is just a question . we 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from thilo , or or jane 's transcribers , you know , we we chop it there . professor f: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: and the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth . professor f: yeah . phd g: and those are the ones that we 're storing . grad d: yeah , as i said , since that 's it 's regeneratable , what i would do is take downsample it , phd g: so yeah . grad d: and compress it however you 're e the sri recognizer wants to take it in . phd g: yeah . professor f: ye phd g: so we ca n't shorten them , grad c: right . phd g: but we can downsample them . professor f: yeah , i mean yeah , i 'm sorry . phd g: so . professor f: as yeah , as long as there is a a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , { comment } then , grad c: r yeah . phd g: oh yeah th grad c: yeah those are gon na be kept . phd g: yeah . yeah . that that 's why we need more disk space professor f: uuu phd g: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um professor f: yeah . grad d: right . professor f: then it 's fine . but for for fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on phd g: oh yeah . grad c: right . grad d: yep . phd g: no . we always have the original long ones . professor f: we would like to phd b: so the sri front - end wo n't take a uh an an a large audio file name and then a a list of segments to chop out { comment } from that large audio file ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they actually have to be chopped out already ? phd g: um , it 's better if they 're chopped out , phd b: uh - huh . phd g: and and it it will be yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . you c you can actually move them around . grad d: and that 's the whole point about the naming conventions phd g: uh , you can get rid of grad d: is that you could run all the english speaking , phd g: yeah , it it 's a lot faster . grad d: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers , phd g: right . you can grab everything with the word `` the `` in it , grad d: and all the men , and all the women . yeah . phd g: and it 's that 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and so in principle , yeah , you could do that , phd b: i do n't i do n't think that 's really right . phd g: but it 's but it 's um grad d: `` that 's just not right , man . `` the the point phd g: these are long these are long grad d: so so s for example , what if you wanted to run run all the native speakers . phd g: you know . this is an hour of speech . grad d: right , so if if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . the way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . and so , you know , you just say phd g: we - yeah that 's so that 's part of it grad d: y so you just say you know `` asterisk e asterisk dot wave `` , and you get what you want . phd g: is right . and the other part is just that once they 're written out it it is a lot faster to to process them . grad d: rather than doing seeks through the file . phd g: so . otherwise , you 're just accessing grad d: this is all just temporary access , so i do n't i think it 's all just it 's fine . you know . fine to do it however is convenient . phd g: right . professor f: i mean it just depends how big the file is . if the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks phd g: right . the other thing is that , believe it or not i mean , we have some professor f: but . grad d: yeah and they do n't . two gig ? phd g: so we 're also looking at these in waves like for the alignments and so forth . you ca n't load an hour of speech into x waves . professor f: yeah . phd g: you need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the transcriber program um grad d: yes you can . phd b: yeah , you you can give waves a start and an end time . and middle . phd g: yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into x waves , you 'll be waiting there for phd b: no , i i 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file , phd g: oh phd b: i 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . and it 'll just go and pull out that section . grad d: i th w the transcribers did n't have any problem with that did they jane ? postdoc e: what 's th u w in what respect ? phd g: loading the long phd a: no , with the transcriber tool , it 's no problem . grad d: they loaded they loaded the long long files into x waves . phd g: it takes a very long ti phd a: yeah just to load a transcription postdoc e: in the in mm - hmm . phd a: phd g: right . phd a: takes a long time , phd g: it takes a l very long time . phd a: but not for the wavefile . the wavefile is there immediately . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad d: are you talking about transcriber or x waves ? phd g: huh . phd a: yeah . oh , i 'm tr talking about transcriber . phd g: actually , you 're talking about transcriber , right ? phd a: yeah . grad d: because because i we used x waves to do the digits . postdoc e: it was also true of the digits task which was x waves . grad d: and they were loading the full mixed files then , postdoc e: yeah . very quickly . grad d: and it did n't seem to be any problem . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: huh . well we we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a it - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file , grad d: hmm . seemed really fast . phd g: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um , grad d: well regardless , it 's professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean it 's i i think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two you know , the begin and end times . um , but i think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones . grad d: and , it 's no problem , right ? phd g: yeah , it 's grad d: because it 's not backed up . phd g: yeah . grad d: so we just phd g: it 's it 's just grad d: if we do n't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . you know , it 's not a big deal . postdoc e: you 're right about the backup being a bottleneck . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's good to think towards scratch . phd g: yeah , so these would n't be backed up , the postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yep . phd g: right . grad d: so remind me afterward phd g: and grad d: and i 'll and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff . grad c: ok . alright . i mean , i could just u do a du on it right ? and just see which how much is on each so . grad d: yep . each partition . and you wan na use , either xa or scratch . grad c: ok . grad d: well x question mark , anything starting with x is scratch . grad c: ok . postdoc e: with two two digits . grad d: two digits , right , xa , xb , xc . ok ? professor f: so , @ @ . grad d: jane ? postdoc e: ok . so i got a little print - out here . so three on this side , three on this side . and i stapled them . ok . alright so , first of all , um , there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and and i can tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ { comment } natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . and , um , so , i did a bunch of checks , and the first thing i did was obviously a spell - check . and at that point i discovered certain things like , um , `` accommodate `` with one `` m `` , that kind of thing . and then , in addition to that , i did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things phd b: i 'm i 'm sorry to interrupt postdoc e: yeah ? phd b: you could could i just back up a little bit postdoc e: sure , please , phd b: and postdoc e: yeah , please , please . phd b: so you 're doing these so the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd b: and they do their pass over it . postdoc e: yes . phd b: and then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you , postdoc e: that 's right . phd b: and you begin these sanit these quality checks . postdoc e: exactly . i do these checks . phd b: ok . postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: ok . postdoc e: exactly . yeah . thank you . and so , uh , i do a an exhaustive listing of the forms actually , i will go through this in in order , so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that . grad d: so on the fifth page , seven down postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . exactly ! exactly ! alright so , a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point i pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . and th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . and if not , then that gets checked . then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called `` spoken - forms `` . so there mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . but there 's w and that that 's done with the assumption that pronunciation variants can be handled . so for things like `` and `` , the fact that someone does n't say the `` d `` , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . however , things like `` cuz `` where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons f for those reasons i i kept that separate , and used the convention of using `` cuz `` for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . so `` wan na `` is another one , `` going `` uh , `` gon na `` is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model , to handle . and chuck , you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , did n't you ? did i phd b: i do n't remember . postdoc e: ok . so so it might not have been it might not have been you , phd b: hmm . postdoc e: but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . ok , so after that , let 's see , phd b: so that was part of the spell - check , { comment } or was that that was after the spell - check ? postdoc e: um . well so when i get the exhau so the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: so it gets `` cuz `` and `` wan na `` and that grad d: and then you gloss them ? postdoc e: yeah , mm - hmm . run it through i have a sed you know , so i do sed script saying whenever you see `` gon na `` you know , `` convert it to gon na `` , you know , `` gloss equals quote going - to quote `` , you know . and with all these things being in curly brackets grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so they 're always distinctive . ok , i also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , or anything which i 've classified as an acronym , and a pronounced acronym . and the way i tag ac pronounced acronyms is that i have underscores between the components . so if it 's `` acl `` then it 's `` a `` underscore `` c `` underscore `` l `` . grad d: and so so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? postdoc e: and the th yes . uh - huh , yeah . grad d: whew ! postdoc e: ok , so now . uh and a grad d: we are acronym - loaded . phd g: um , can i ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ? postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , for a word like `` because `` is it that it 's always predictably `` because `` ? i mean , is `` cuz `` always meaning `` because `` ? postdoc e: yes , but not the reverse . so sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting , and if if they actually said `` because `` , then it 's written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does n't even figure into the equation . professor f: but but in our meetings people do n't say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` phd g: beca - because right . { comment } right . grad d: except right there . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: um , so , i guess so , from the point of view of postdoc e: that 's a good point . phd g: the the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` , grad d: well , phd g: and so if we know that `` cuz `` postdoc e: that 's fine . grad d: but they have the gloss . postdoc e: well don has a script . grad c: yeah . phd g: but , we do n't grad d: you have the gloss form so you always replace it . postdoc e: exactly . grad d: if that 's how what you wan na do . postdoc e: uh - huh . and don knows this , grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that grad c: i replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it 's glossed . phd g: s right . but , if it 's ok . grad c: and phd g: but then there are other glosses that we do n't replace , right ? because postdoc e: yes . and that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses , phd g: ok . so , then it 's fine . postdoc e: on the different on the different types of comments , which we 'll which we 'll see in just a second . grad c: right . phd g: ok . postdoc e: so the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . there 're comments of four types . so this is a good time to introduce that . the four types . w and maybe we 'll expand that grad d: um postdoc e: but the but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . one of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned . grad d: can ca postdoc e: another type is , um grad d: so a are we done with acronyms ? cuz i had a question on what what this meant . postdoc e: i 'm still doing the overview . i have n't actually gotten here yet . grad d: oh i 'm sorry . postdoc e: ok so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . uh , then you have if it 's uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that are n't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of `` voc `` . phd a: whew ! postdoc e: and the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization . phd b: so then it just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there . postdoc e: oh yeah , so i e this would grad d: a comment , basically . postdoc e: let 's just take one example . phd b: oh , oh , oh . postdoc e: and then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . they always end . so it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . and then the third type right now , uh , is m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . so it could be something like , you know , `` referring to so - and - so `` , `` talking about such - and - such `` , uh , you know , `` looking at so - and - so `` . phd b: so on the m postdoc e: yeah . phd b: on the middle t so , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . but in the middle two th - it 's not applying to anything , right ? postdoc e: yeah , and this gets substituted here . grad d: they 're impulsive . phd b: ok . postdoc e: huh - uh . no , they 're events . phd b: ok . grad d: well the `` qual `` can be the `` qual `` is applying to the left . postdoc e: they 're actually they have the status of events . phd b: right , i just meant the middle two ones , yeah . grad d: yep . postdoc e: well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to `` laugh `` , there 's another one which is `` while laughing `` , grad d: `` while laughing `` . postdoc e: and that is , uh , i i an argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we have n't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have `` while laughing `` , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . have n't been awfully precise about that , but i have here , now we 're about to get to the to this now , i have frequencies . so you 'll see how often these different things occur . but , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm - hmm `` and `` mm - hmm `` and `` ha `` and `` uh - uh `` and all these different types . and , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been chuck , { comment } about , um about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for `` mm - hmmm `` with three m 's , and it 's transcribed with two m 's , that it might uh , that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because um , i p i personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . so , right now i 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms . grad d: oh good . postdoc e: i i should say grad d: so it 's a small list . postdoc e: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . so , i 'm gon na i 'm gon na i 'm gon na check grad d: that that 's known as `` found data `` . postdoc e: yeah , yeah . acsu - actually yeah . i got it was stored in a place i did n't expect , grad c: it 's like the z zapruder film . postdoc e: so and and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened . professor f: i wan na work with lost data . grad d: yeah . it 's much easier . postdoc e: and this is this 'll be great . so i 'll i 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably . grad d: hmm . postdoc e: and so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . but you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things . grad d: yeah . postdoc e: and i made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you would n't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . and , um grad c: jane , can i ask you a question ? what 's that very last one correspond to ? postdoc e: sure . grad c: i do n't even know how to pronounce that . postdoc e: well , yeah . now that that s only occurs once , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: and i 'm thinking of changing that . phd g: right . grad c: uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ? postdoc e: so - c i have n't listened to it so i do n't know . grad c: like their hair 's on fire ? postdoc e: i have n't heard it actually . i n i need to listen to that one . grad d: ah ! phd a: it 's the castle of ah ! phd g: actually we we gave this to our pronunciation person , grad c: uh , it looks like that . phd g: she 's like , `` i do n't know what that is either `` . so . postdoc e: did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? cuz i have n't heard it . phd g: no , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , were n't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just did n't listen so she did n't know . we just we 're waiting on that just to do the alignments . postdoc e: yeah . yeah i 'm curious to se hear what it is , but i did n't know wan na change it to something else until i knew . grad c: right . phd g: maybe it 's `` argh `` ? postdoc e: well , sss , { comment } you know phd g: grad c: but that 's not really like postdoc e: hhh . grad c: no one really says `` argh , `` you know , postdoc e: phd g: yeah . right , no one say grad c: it 's not professor f: well , you just did . phd b: except for now ! grad c: well , there 's another there 's another word error . grad d: postdoc e: yeah . that 's right . grad d: yes , that 's right . we 're gon na have a big problem when we talk about that . grad c: cha - ching . phd g: ah . phd b: we 're gon na never recognize this meeting . grad d: in monty python you say `` argh `` a lot . postdoc e: ok . grad c: oh yeah ? grad d: so . well , or if you 're a c programmer . grad c: mmm . grad d: you say arg - c and arg - v all the time . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . grad c: that 's true . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah phd g: but it has a different prosody . professor f: arg . grad d: it does . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: arg arg - max , arg - min , yeah . grad d: ah ! postdoc e: uh , phd g: so , jane , what 's the d grad d: maybe he died while dictating . postdoc e: so . phd g: i have one question about the the `` eh `` versus like the `` ah `` and the `` uh `` . postdoc e: that 's partly a nonnative - native thing , phd g: ok . postdoc e: but i have found `` eh `` in native speakers too . phd g: postdoc e: but it 's mostly non - native phd a: h phd b: that 's `` eh `` versus `` ah `` ? phd g: s ok . postdoc e: eh . grad d: eh ? phd g: `` eh , `` yeah right , cuz there were were some speakers that did definite `` eh 's `` postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but right now we phd b: they were the canadians , right ? professor f: canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . phd g: so , it it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real `` eh `` and the one that 's just like `` uh `` or transcribed `` aaa `` postdoc e: exactly . phd g: cuz in like in switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like `` uh `` . grad d: you mean just the single letter `` a `` { comment } as in the particle ? phd a: the transcription or grad d: article . phd g: no , no , i mean like the the `` uh `` , postdoc e: `` uh `` . grad d: oh . phd g: or the `` uh `` , `` eh `` , `` ah `` were all the same . and then , we have this additional non - native version of uh , like `` eeh `` . grad c: all the `` eh `` 's i 've seen have been like that . they 've been like `` eh `` like that have bee has been transcribed to `` eh `` . and sometimes it 's stronger , postdoc e: mm - hmm , that 's right . grad c: like `` eeh `` { comment } which is like closer to `` eh `` . postdoc e: mmm . phd g: right . grad c: but . grad d: i 'm just these poor transcribers , they 're gon na hate this meeting . postdoc e: yeah . grad c: i know . we should go off - line . postdoc e: well , we 're not doing we 're not doing length . professor f: quick thilo , do a do a filled pause for us . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . phd a: ooo { comment } no . phd g: but you 're a native german speaker so it 's not a not a issue for phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's only grad d: them canadians . phd g: onl yeah . no , only if you do n't have lax vowels , i guess . grad d: oh . phd g: right . postdoc e: this makes sense . phd g: so it 's like japanese and spanish postdoc e: yeah i i think you 've uh - huh , yeah . grad d: oh i see . professor f: uh - huh . phd g: and grad d: i did n't get that , postdoc e: that makes sense . grad d: ok . postdoc e: yeah , and so , you know , i mean , th th i have there are some , um , americans who who are using this `` eh `` too , and i have n't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being `` uh 's `` but , uh , i my spot - checking has made me think that we do have `` eh `` in also , um , american e e data represented here . but any case , that 's the this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list , phd g: yeah this is great . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah , it 's good , postdoc e: and this is grad d: yeah . phd g: this is really really helpful . postdoc e: functionally pretty , you know , also it was fascinating , i was listening to some of these , uh , i guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to to do a search for the `` mm - hmm 's `` . and you get `` mm - hmm `` and diff everybody 's doing it . grad d: and just listen to them ? yeah . postdoc e: just i wanted to say i w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a `` mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: performance art , postdoc e: mm - hmm . `` grad d: just extract them all . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's really it 's really fun to listen to . phd b: morgan can make a song out of it . postdoc e: all these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's it 's the same item . it 's very interesting . ok . uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber was n't sure of , grad d: oh i see . postdoc e: and i have n't been able to listen to to to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them grad d: o how about question mark ? postdoc e: cuz it 's the only place where where they 're used . phd a: the question marks , yeah . what are those ? postdoc e: question mark is punctuation . so it they said that @ @ grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: oh . postdoc e: um , `` dc ? `` phd a: ah . grad d: so they so it 's `` plp ? `` postdoc e: exactly . exactly . yeah , so the only well , and i do have a stress marker here . sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um professor f: i 'm sorry , i i got lost here . what - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ? postdoc e: the parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ann , but was n't entirely sure . so i 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no , professor f: ah . postdoc e: and then get rid of the parentheses . phd g: right . postdoc e: but the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain . grad d: yeah , p - make is phd g: yeah i mean cuz they they have no idea , grad d: that 's a good one . that 's correct . phd g: right . if you hear ctpd , i mean , they do pretty well professor f: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: but it 's professor f: i i do n't recognize a lot of these . phd g: you know how are how are they gon na know ? grad c: yeah . grad d: i know ! i i was saying that i think a lot of them are the networks meeting . professor f: i postdoc e: i think that 's true . professor f: maybe . postdoc e: yeah , absolutely . grad d: i see a few . postdoc e: nsa , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: a lot of these are are coming from them . i listened to some of that . grad c: yeah , we do n't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting . grad d: although i see i see plenty of uh postdoc e: yeah . yeah . i agree . grad c: it 's not so bad . phd g: right . postdoc e: and robustness has a fair amount , phd a: yeah . grad c: mmm . postdoc e: but the nsa group is just very very many . phd g: the recognizer , it is funny . kept getting pta for pda . grad d: yeah , that 's pretty close . professor f: yeah . phd g: this is close , right , grad c: that 's not bad . phd g: and the pta was in these , uh , topics about children , postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , anyway . postdoc e: that 's interesting . phd g: is the p - pta working ? postdoc e: right and sometimes , i mean , you see a couple of these that are actually `` ok 's `` so it 's it 's may be that they got to the point where i mean it was low enough understandable understandability that they were n't entirely sure the person said `` ok . `` you know , so it is n't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym , grad c: there 's a lot of `` ok 's `` . postdoc e: but just n needs to be double checked . now we get to the comments . this professor f: the number to the left is the number of incidences ? grad d: count . yep . postdoc e: number of times out of the entire database , professor f: uh - huh . postdoc e: w except for that last thirty minutes i have n't checked yet . professor f: so cts is really big here , grad d: yeah , i wonder what it is . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd a: so what is the difference between `` papers rustling `` and `` rustling papers `` ? professor f: ip , i know what ip is . postdoc e: i 'd have to listen . i i i agree . i w i 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: but , i i 'm a little hesitant to to collapse across categories unless i actually listen to them . phd a: seems so . professor f: ok . grad d: oh i 'm sure we 've said xml more than five times . postdoc e: well , then , at least now . phd a: now it 's at least six times , yeah . professor f: s s six now , yeah . postdoc e: yeah . six . ok well professor f: wh - the self - referential aspect of these these p phd g: i 'm wai grad c: yeah . grad d: yes , it 's very bad . phd g: well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ? grad d: yes . phd g: y no normally you do n't go around saying , `` now you 've said it six times . grad d: yeah { comment } that 's right . phd g: now you 've said `` postdoc e: but did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of `` ok `` ? phd a: seven hundred eighty - five instances . postdoc e: and that 's just without the without punc punctuation . grad c: yeah . grad d: yep . professor f: no , i did n't . yeah . grad d: and that 's an underestimate postdoc e: extra forty one if it 's questioned . phd b: where 's that ? grad d: cuz they 're yep . professor f: so th postdoc e: on the page two of acronyms . grad c: is this after like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of `` ok `` to this ? professor f: yeah . seven hundred eighty . postdoc e: yeah . of `` ok `` , yes . grad c: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . so that 's the single existing convention for `` ok `` . phd b: wait a minute , w s professor f: so now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight . postdoc e: yeah that 's grad c: although , what 's there 's one with a slash after it . that 's kind of disturbing . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know . postdoc e: that 's that 's i looked for that one . phd g: yeah . grad c: anyway . postdoc e: i actually explicitly looked for that one , grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think that , um , i i 'm not exactly sure about that . phd b: was that somewhere where they were gon na say `` new speaker `` or something ? postdoc e: no , i looked for that , but that does n't actually exist . and it may be , i do n't i ca n't explain that . grad c: that 's alright . i 'm just pointing that out . postdoc e: i i it 's the only grad c: there 's postdoc e: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and i think it 's it 's an epiphenomenon . phd g: well there 's not @ @ . grad d: so i 'll just i was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that `` to be `` or `` not to be `` . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: there 's no tilde in front of it , postdoc e: oh that 's cute . phd b: so . postdoc e: that 's funny . yeah . grad d: ok anyways , sorry . postdoc e: ok . grad d: `` try to stay on topic , adam . `` postdoc e: there is th one y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . so now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes . grad d: ok so , um , on some of these quals , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: are they really quals , or are they glosses ? so like there 's a `` qual tcl `` . postdoc e: `` tcl `` . where do you see that ? grad d: uh postdoc e: oh , oh . the reason is because w it was said `` tickle `` . professor f: what 's a qual ? grad d: oh i see , i see . grad c: hmm . grad d: so it 's not gloss . ok , i see . postdoc e: yep . grad c: sh - should n't it be `` qual tickle `` or something ? grad d: it was n't said `` tcl `` . of course . grad c: like it 's not postdoc e: on the in the actual script in the actual transcript , i s i so this this happens in the very first one . grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i actually wrote it as `` tickle `` . grad c: ok . postdoc e: because we they did n't say `` tcl `` , they said `` tickle `` . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and then , following that is `` qual tcl `` . phd g: right . grad c: oh i see . ok . professor f: i f i forget , what 's qual ? postdoc e: qual - qualifier . phd b: it 's just comment about what they said . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: comment . grad c: it 's not something you wan na replace with postdoc e: comment or contextual comment . phd b: so they did n't mean `` tickle `` as in elmo , grad c: but phd a: tickle ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they meant `` tickle `` as in grad d: yeah . phd g: huh . professor f: right . phd g: but at some point i mean , we probably shoul grad d: we 'll probably add it to the language model . phd g: but we should add it to the dictionar grad d: yeah . phd g: no , to the pronunciation model . grad d: what did i say ? phd a: to the language model model . phd g: language , uh grad d: well both . phd b: add what , liz ? grad d: we can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model . phd g: oh lan oh ok - we ok phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of `` tickle `` . grad d: well `` tickle `` was pronounced `` tickle `` . right ? phd a: `` tickle `` is pronounced `` tickle `` ? phd b: what are you saying ? grad d: it 's pronounced the same it 's pronounced the same as the verb . phd g: i 'm sorry ! grad d: so i think it 's the language model that makes it different . phd g: oh , sorry . what i meant is that there should be a pronunciation `` tickle `` for tcl as a word . phd a: yeah . grad d: oh i see . phd g: and that word in the in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: right . right . professor f: right . phd g: yeah you never would put `` tickle `` in the language model in that form , postdoc e: grad d: right . phd g: yeah . right . there 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and phd b: so how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are . phd g: yes . yeah . yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . tcl 's one of them . grad d: and and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously . phd g: um , y yeah . grad d: right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously . grad c: it 's just disturbing . phd g: right . phd b: hmm . phd g: right . we have this there is this thing i was gon na talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the like spelling people 's names and so forth . if we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had deborah tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it , grad d: you can correct it . yeah . phd g: but but we need to make sure we have the mispel if it does n't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: things like that . grad d: these are so funny to read . postdoc e: well , of course now the the tannen corre the spelling c change . phd g: so . postdoc e: uh , that 's what gets i i picked those up in the frequency check . phd g: right . right . so if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's it 's not an issue , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our the dictionary up to date . and then , yeah , in the case of `` tickle `` i guess we would just have a , you know , word `` tcl `` which phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: you add it to the dictionary . phd g: which normally would be an acronym , you know , `` tcl `` grad d: right . phd g: but just has another pronunciation . grad d: yep . postdoc e: `` icsi `` is is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say `` icsi . `` grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , i actually know phd g: oh yeah . postdoc e: they were said as letters . the others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz i have n't been able to go to all the ic icsi things , phd g: right , exactly . postdoc e: and { comment } and until they 've been listened to they stay as `` icsi `` . grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: right . professor f: don and i were just noticing , love this one over on page three , `` vocal vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . `` grad c: that 's great . grad d: it 's this , `` rrre - rrre - rrre `` . it was me . postdoc e: it was ! in fact , it was ! yeah ! grad d: a lot of these are me the the `` beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . `` postdoc e: he he s he said he said get phd a: to head . grad d: that was the i was imitating uh , beeping out postdoc e: yeah , that 's it . professor f: beep . postdoc e: perfect . yeah that 's it . professor f: yeah . phd g: oh there is something spelled out `` beeeeeep `` grad c: um postdoc e: that 's it . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , that 's that 's been changed . phd g: in the old thank you . because he was saying , `` how many e 's do i have to allow for ? `` grad c: you need a lot of grad d: what i meant was `` beep `` . grad c: you need a lot of qualification adam . grad d: i guess so . postdoc e: that 's been changed . so , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in . grad c: subtext . grad d: anyway . postdoc e: s chan brought it down . phd g: right , thanks , yeah . grad d: so they 're vocalization , phd g: right . postdoc e: and those of course get get picked up in the frequency check grad d: glosses . postdoc e: because you see `` beep `` phd g: right . postdoc e: and you know i mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing . phd g: right . right . postdoc e: i have the there 're various things like `` breathe `` versus `` breath `` versus `` inhale `` and , hhh , you know , i do n't know . i i think they do n't have any implications for anything else so it 's like i 'm tempted to leave them for now an and it 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . we can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them . phd g: yeah . professor f: `` sings finale - type song `` grad c: yeah , that was in the first meeting . professor f: that 's that 's good . phd g: yeah . grad d: um , postdoc e: yeah , but i do n't actually remember what it was . but that was eric did that . professor f: yeah . grad d: so on postdoc e: yeah . professor f: tah - dah ! i do n't know . postdoc e: i think maybe something like that . professor f: something like that maybe , yeah . postdoc e: well , that 'd qualify . grad d: on the glosses for numbers , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done . postdoc e: ok . interesting question . grad d: there 's a postdoc e: yes . ok , now first of all ooo - ooo ! very important . grad d: `` ooo - ooo . `` postdoc e: uh chuck chuck led to a refinement here which is to add `` nums `` if these are parts of the read numbers . now you already know i that i had , uh , in places where they had n't transcribed numbers , i put `` numbers `` in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . and , um , d chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . and that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five or three hundred and five times right now which is just well n n `` nums `` by itself grad d: `` nums `` , yeah . postdoc e: which means this is part of the numbers task . i may change it to `` digits `` . i mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ? grad d: yep . postdoc e: have to think about what 's the best for for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , `` numbers `` and `` nums `` are a part of this digits task thing . um , now th then i have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . um , i did n't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . and actually , th um , the reason i b did it this way was because i initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . so you say , `` seve - seventy eight point two `` , or whatever . and there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . you ca n't have the seven and grad d: so what 's to the left of these ? postdoc e: the left is i so example the very first one , grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it would be , spelled out in words , `` point five `` . grad d: ok , that 's what i was asking . right . postdoc e: only it 's spelled out in words . grad d: point five , yeah . postdoc e: so i this is also spelled out in in words . `` point five . `` grad d: good . postdoc e: and then , in here , `` nums `` , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . it comes out as `` nums quote dot five `` . grad d: ok now , the other example is , in the glosses right there , postdoc e: thank you . grad d: `` gloss one one one dash one three zero `` . grad c: right . grad d: what what 's to the left of that ? postdoc e: well now in that case it 's people saying things like `` one one one dash so - and - so `` or they 're saying uh `` two i mean zero `` whatever . grad d: ok . postdoc e: and in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gon na be included in the read digits anyway , phd b: so there will be a `` nums `` tag on those lines ? postdoc e: so i m in the uh there is . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . i 've added that all now too . grad c: there 's a `` numbers `` tag grad d: good . grad c: i 'm sorry i 'm i did n't follow that last thing . phd g: wait . postdoc e: so , so gloss in the same line that would have `` gloss quote one one one dash one thirty `` , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , `` curly bracket nums curly bracket `` . grad c: right . postdoc e: so if you if you did a , uh , a `` grep minus v nums `` phd g: oh , so you could do `` grep minus v nums `` . postdoc e: and you get rid of anything that was read . phd g: so that 's the yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: so there would n't be something like i if somebody said something like , `` boy , i 'm really tired , ok . `` and then started reading that would be on a separate line ? postdoc e: yes . phd g: ok great . cuz i was doing the `` grep minus v `` quick and dirty and looked like that was working ok , postdoc e: mm - hmm . good . phd g: but postdoc e: yep . phd g: great . now why do we what 's the reason for having like the point five have the `` nums `` on it ? is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ? postdoc e: this is more because phd g: or postdoc e: yeah . oh these are all these , the `` nums point `` , this all where they 're saying `` point `` something or other . phd g: these are all like inside the spontaneous postdoc e: and the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . i mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know eh , `` so in the data column five has `` , you know , `` one point five compared to seventy nine point six `` , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . and this is just really a a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said . grad d: label it . phd g: oh ok . postdoc e: so this is where chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in , phd g: i see . postdoc e: where we 're gon na have a master file of the channelized data . um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis . and , um , the implication that that i have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . these will just be things that are generated , grad d: right postdoc e: and e by using scripts . phd g: ok . grad d: master copies of superset . postdoc e: when things change then the the script will cham change but the but there wo n't be stored copies of in different versions of things . grad d: good . phd g: so , i guess i 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of `` nums `` { comment } where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech . phd b: right . right . that would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something . phd g: um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we do n't see the `` point five `` , or or it 's not there , then we phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: a just an and actually for things like `` seven eighths `` , or people do fractions too i guess , you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that , postdoc e: except phd g: or as long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust . postdoc e: well phd g: cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` nums `` string in it . phd b: i suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace nums curly brace `` . postdoc e: well ex - exactly . phd b: i mean that would be the postdoc e: exactly . that was that was my motivation . and i these can be changed , like i said . phd g: yeah . postdoc e: you know , i mean , as i said i was considering changing it to `` digits `` . and , it just i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know . phd b: right . phd g: it would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . and we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . but you 're right , we could do it this way , it it should work . um , phd b: yeah , and it makes it i guess the thing about phd g: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference phd b: yeah . phd g: because one 's in the context of a you know , a transcribed word string , phd b: right . postdoc e: the other thing is you can get really so minute with these things phd g: and so postdoc e: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` . now i i could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ? grad d: hmm . postdoc e: i it 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are and we could always add it later . percent 's easy to detect . point however is is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . and you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying `` well the first point i wan na make is so - and - so `` and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals . phd b: so liz , what does the recognizer do , postdoc e: so . phd b: uh , professor f: hmm . phd b: what does the sri recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` . does it output the word phd g: `` seven point five `` . phd b: right , the word `` seven `` ? grad d: well , the numbers ? phd b: the number `` seven `` ? phd g: the word . phd b: the word `` seven `` , ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: so i 'd so `` i 'd like i 'd like to talk about point five `` . phd g: and and actually , you know the language professor f: yeah . phd g: it 's the same point , actually , the the p you know , the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to 's `` and so there 's no distinction there . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: it 's just just the word `` point `` has yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if even if it 's a actually even like the word `` read `` { comment } and `` read `` those are two different words . they 're spelled the same way , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: and they 're still gon na be transcribed as read . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd g: so , yeah , i i like the idea of having this in there , i just i was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech because i what if we have like `` read letters `` or , i do n't know , grad d: we might wan na just a separate tag that says it 's read . phd g: like `` read something `` like `` read `` grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah , basically . but other than that i it sounds great . grad d: yeah . ok ? are we done ? postdoc e: well i wanted to say also regarding the channelized data , grad d: oh , i guess we 're not done . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that , um , thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was chuc - chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you if you said , `` oh `` and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one grad d: well postdoc e: as for the longer utterances , grad d: we did that for one meeting , right , postdoc e: and grad d: so you have that data do n't you ? phd a: yeah , that 's the training data . postdoc e: and he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: he gave me he did the very nice , he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . and at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . in addition the i 've i have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually . phd a: oh great . postdoc e: so right now , um , i know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and i 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started . phd a: oh great . ok . postdoc e: but if if you know , and i and he 's gon na give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose . phd a: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: because it 's true , i mean , if we could do the the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . and , um . so this is gon na be useful to expand this . phd a: so i i thought we we sh we sh perhaps we should try to to start with those channelized versions just to just to try it . give it give one tr transcriber the the channelized version of of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if if that 's better or if they if they can postdoc e: you mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ? phd a: yeah . yeah . yeah . postdoc e: that 'd be excellent . yeah , that 'd be really great . as it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time uh , aligned . i also wan na tell um , i also wanted to r raise the issue that ok so , there 's this idea we 're gon na have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gon na be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . and actually the master phd b: two or more . two or more different functions . postdoc e: two two or more . and that the master is gon na be the channelized version . phd b: right . postdoc e: so right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . and now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . but i wanted to get all the finished all the checks phd b: yeah , so that has implications for your script . grad c: yeah . so , uh , have those e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? and i know i 've seen @ @ i 've seen they 've been channelized , postdoc e: yes , they have . grad d: all ten hours ? grad c: but postdoc e: except for the missing thirty minutes . grad c: have they uh have they been has the time have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel grad d: great . postdoc e: uh , for for a total of like twenty m f for a total of let 's see , four times total of about an thirty minutes . that 's that 's been the case . grad c: so , postdoc e: and plus the training , whatever you have . grad c: i guess , i mean , i do n't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but i grad d: well it 's just we 're missing tea . grad c: yeah , i know . grad d: so . grad c: no , but i mean my question is like should i wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before i do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the into the our layer of uh transcripts . postdoc e: well , you know the problem the problem is that some some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring are to combine bins that were time bins which were previously separate . and the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off . grad c: right . postdoc e: and so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . and , grad c: ok . no i know i know that adjusting those things are gon na is gon na make it better . postdoc e: so i it 's gon na be a more reliable thing and i 'm not sure grad c: i mean i 'm sure about that , postdoc e: yeah . grad c: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or postdoc e: well partly it depends on how um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time , grad c: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes . grad c: yeah , i do n't doubt it . um , so . phd b: so right now the what you 're doing is you 're taking the uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ? grad c: yeah . i 'm doing it myself . i mean i if the time markings are n't different across channels , like the channelized version really does n't have any more information . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , i was just i mean , originally i had done before like the channelized versions were coming out . phd b: right . right . grad c: um , phd b: so i i th i think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals . grad c: and so it 's a question of like what mm - hmm . mm - hmm . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on . postdoc e: yep . mm - hmm . grad c: right . phd b: um , so postdoc e: yeah , i mean phd b: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated postdoc e: yeah . phd b: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions . grad c: ok . phd b: but the i guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that , grad c: i know . phd b: so , maybe grad c: right . postdoc e: but that phd g: but that that 's not hard . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad c: no . phd g: i i think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription phd b: ok . phd g: so if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you do n't where the word which words moved . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd g: and that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit uh , having to rerun the processing . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: the cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial . grad c: yeah . i mean as long as it can all be done automatically , i mean , then that 's not a concern . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , if i just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem . phd g: right . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: um , so yeah . as long as we 're at that point . and i know exactly like what the steps will work what 's going on , in the editing process , phd b: yeah . grad c: so . ok . postdoc e: so that 's i i mean i could there were other checks that i did , but it 's i think that we 've unless you think there 's anything else , i think that i 've covered it . professor f: yeah . phd b: i ca n't think of any of the other ones . postdoc e: ok . great . professor f: ok . grad d: oop ! man !

transcription checking procedures were reviewed , and efforts to coordinate the channelization and presegmention of data with the tightening of time bins were discussed .

what solution was proposed for the transcribers ? </s> grad d: and we already got the crash out of the way . it did crash , so i feel much better , earlier . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: interesting . hmm . professor f: will you get the door , and ? grad d: ok , so um . professor f: ok . you collected an agenda , huh ? grad d: i did collect an agenda . so i 'm gon na go first . mwa - ha - ha ! it should n't take too long . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . we 've gone once through the set . um , so the only thing i have to do professor f: no there 's only ten . grad d: yeah , that 's right . so i i just have to go through them professor f: well , ok . grad d: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . so we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . i 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . we have about two hours worth . i extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . so i extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the `` key `` file and the transcript files are parsable . some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and i have to go back and fix those . so what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . um , liz professor f: so you think two you think two hours is the is the total that we have ? grad d: yep , yeah . professor f: and you think we th uh , i i did n't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ? grad d: yes , absolutely . professor f: ok . grad d: so it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . i have this web - based speaker form , and i sent mail to everyone who had n't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in . professor f: so the relevance of the speaker form here , s grad d: it 's for labeling the extracted audio files . professor f: oh , ok . grad d: by speaker id and microphone type . professor f: was n't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something . grad d: no , i spoke with jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that we edit out any of the errors anyway . right ? so the there are no errors in the digits , professor f: yeah . grad d: you 'll always read the string correctly . so i ca n't imagine why anyone would care . so the other topic with digits is uh , liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in english . and it just did n't work at all because no one grouped them together . so it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . so in conversations with liz and uh jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . the problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . when i look at this , that first line is `` sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . `` um , and so the question is does anyone care ? um , i 've already spoken with liz and she feels that , correct me if i 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: as opposed to connected digits . um , i think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wan na do training and adaptation and all that other stuff . professor f: yeah um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you would n't like that ? is that correct ? phd g: well , we actually figured out a way to grad d: yeah , the the phd g: the the groupings are randomly generated . professor f: no but , i was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was n't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would n't , uh , go and do numbers so much . you know if it if it 's phd a: uh phd g: i think they may still do it , um , professor f: maybe some , but i probably not so much . phd b: what about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? phd g: and professor f: right ? so if you if if you have uh grad d: six dash one , you mean ? professor f: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one . phd g: i well ok i it might help , i would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping . professor f: that 's what i was asking , yeah . phd g: um , so if that 's your question , professor f: yeah . phd g: but i mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits postdoc e: yeah . phd g: if that 's what people want . i i 'm postdoc e: yeah . phd g: do n't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data , grad d: right . phd g: and that 's always a good thing . grad d: yep . phd g: it 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . they 're better trained than the numbers . grad d: so we could just , uh , put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` . professor f: right . phd g: right . right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: and if people make a mistake we grad d: how about `` o `` versus `` zero `` ? professor f: i mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's it 's it 's - i 'm not worrying about it i mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from ogi . i 'm sorry , digits numbers training that we have from ogi , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . and um . phd g: but it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean for it 's professor f: no , no , i guess what i 'm saying is that grad d: just let them read it how they read it . professor f: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have . phd g: right . well that 's fine with me as long as it 's just that i did n't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits . professor f: yeah . we can go back to the other thing later . phd g: so professor f: i mean we s we we 've we can do this for awhile phd g: ok . professor f: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . do yo i mean , do you want do you want this do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? phd g: ok . professor f: how much of this do you need ? with uh the phd g: it 's actually unclear right now . i just thought well we 're if we 're collec collecting digits , and adam had said we were running out of the ti forms , i thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits professor f: ok . phd g: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gon na do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . so we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general . professor f: ok , well if you pre phd g: but if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one oo `` . and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` o `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` o `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context , professor f: yeah . phd g: and that 's sort of interesting . so i do n't have a specific need cuz if i did i 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but if we can try it grad d: ok so so i can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: right , and you can give an example like , you know , `` six sixty - one would be read as six one `` . grad d: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . and i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words . phd g: and i think people will get it . postdoc e: i 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single . phd g: right , right . postdoc e: the spaces already bias it toward being separated . phd g: it 's just easier to read . postdoc e: and i know i 'm gon na find this easier than words . phd g: right . grad d: oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier . phd g: ok i also had a hard hard time with the words , professor f: yeah . phd g: but then we went back and forth on that . ok , so let 's give that a try grad d: ok . and is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ? professor f: ok . phd g: and grad d: or is that alright ? phd g: i mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading { comment } them . postdoc e: i think that i it 's fine . grad d: ok . postdoc e: i it it to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation phd g: ok . postdoc e: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all . phd g: great . ok . grad d: and i think there are about ten different gouping patterns professor f: let 's try it . phd g: well let 's give it a try . grad d: is n't that right , liz ? that we did . phd g: righ - right , and you just they 're randomly generated and randomly assigned to digits . postdoc e: i did mm - hmm . professor f: so we have postdoc e: go ahead . professor f: sorry , i i was just gon na say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now . and you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then , grad d: yep . professor f: something like twenty twenty to one . which i guess makes makes sense . so if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this . grad d: right . professor f: um , yeah like you say , i think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set 's ok . it 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll we might use use this up , uh , in some sense , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: right . professor f: but but uh postdoc e: yeah , i also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank . grad d: right . postdoc e: hmm ? cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . and i think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally american speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database . grad d: right . i think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing ti - digits probably is n't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different . professor f: yeah . grad d: it 's gon na be very hard to be comparable . postdoc e: except that if you have the stimuli comparable , then it says something about the the contribution of setting professor f: no it 's it 's not the same . postdoc e: and professor f: a little bit , but the other differences are so major . grad d: yeah i mean read versus not . postdoc e: ok . professor f: they 're such major sources of variance that it 's it 's it 's uh postdoc e: what 's an example of a of m some of the other differences ? any other a difference ? professor f: well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one , postdoc e: ok . professor f: you know , it 's just there 's so many things . grad d: well , and not just that , postdoc e: ok . professor f: it 's it and and enunciation . grad d: i mean the uh the corpus itself . i mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and i 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . i mean if i remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that . professor f: ti - digits was ? grad d: i thought so . professor f: i thought i thought it was read . grad d: was it read ? professor f: yeah , i think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be ogi . grad d: oh , i may well be . professor f: yeah , no ti - digits was read in th in read in the studio i believe . grad d: i have n't ever listened to ti - digits . so i do n't really know how it compares . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: but but regardless it 's gon na it 's hard to compare cross - corpus . professor f: but it but it - it 's different people is the is the core thing . grad d: so . postdoc e: ok , fine . professor f: and they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's it 's it 's really pretty different . but i think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you could n't do exact comparisons , it would n't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . uh , you know it 's not phd b: hey liz , what what do the groupings represent ? postdoc e: ok . phd b: you said there 's like ten different groupings ? phd g: right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings . phd b: mm - hmm . are the patterns like are they based on anything or phd g: um , i i just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time . phd b: oh . phd g: and they can have , i mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . in the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . so , there 's between , um well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and i purposely did n't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern . phd b: mmm . phd g: so grad d: and which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly . phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: so unlike the previous one , which i d simply replicated ti - digits , this is generated randomly . phd g: right . phd a: oh ok . phd b: mmm , oh , ok . phd g: but i think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or ti - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: and , i mean so it 's it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . especially for speakers that do n't talk a lot . grad d: yeah . phd g: so um , for adaptation . no , i 'm serious , phd a: yeah . grad d: yeah all we have for some people is digits . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know grad d: oh , you 're not . phd g: not for adaptation , nope . v w we 're not we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and i 'd as soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and i thought `` well , we 're gon na do better on that , grad d: oh i see . phd g: that 's not fair to use `` . grad d: oh yeah that 's true , absolutely . phd a: ok . phd g: but , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . so those speakers who are very quiet , { comment } shy grad d: that would be interesting to see whether that helps . phd g: r right phd b: like adam ? grad d: do you think that would help adapting on yeah . yeah , i have a real problem with that . professor f: yeah . phd g: well , it sh i mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the in the same meeting , grad d: right . same same acoustics , professor f: yeah . phd g: and so you do n't get grad d: same microphone , phd a: yeah . grad d: same channel . phd g: right , and so i still like the idea of having some kind of digit data . grad d: ok . good . professor f: yeah i mean , for the for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , i see it as as as the place that we start . but , th i mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but but uh the truth is i 'm hoping that we we through the the stuff that that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . so . postdoc e: great . phd g: the only thing that we do n't have , i know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we do n't have any overlapping digits . grad d: yeah , we talked about that a couple times . phd g: an - yea i know it 's weird , but um phd a: overlapping digits ! grad d: the the problem i see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load . phd g: alright everybody 's laughing . ok . grad c: dueling digits . grad d: no it 's it 's not stupid , it 's just i mean , try to do it . phd g: i 'm just talkin for the stuff that like dan ellis is gon na try , grad d: i mean , here , let 's try it . phd g: you know , cross - talk cancellation . grad d: you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: let 's try it . phd g: ok . phd a: oh ! phd g: wait oh it these are all the same forms . professor f: sixty - one . phd g: ok { comment } so but grad d: so so you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: no , i 'll p phd g: so you plu you plug your ears . grad d: oh i guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you do n't get the the same effects . phd a: yeah . phd g: well , what i mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people grad d: yeah . phd g: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like dan ellis and and company want to do . grad d: oh i see . phd g: digits are nice and well behaved , i mean grad d: i guess we could try . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . grad d: we could try doing some . phd g: it it would go faster . phd b: parallel . phd g: it would take one around { comment } amount of ti phd b: it 's the p - make of digit reading . grad d: well well ok . well let 's try it . phd g: that 's right . i i mea i 'm i was sort of serious , but i really , i mean , i 'm i do n't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea , professor f: see , y grad d: you do the last line , i 'll do the first line . phd g: so . professor f: ok . grad d: o . { comment } that 's not bad . professor f: no , i can do it . phd b: i could n't understand a single thing you guys were saying . phd g: a and that prosody was great , by the way . postdoc e: i think it was numbers , but i 'm not sure . phd g: it it sort of sounded like a duet , or something . phd a: yeah . phd b: performance art . professor f: alright , let 's try three at once you you pick one in the middle . phd a: the aurora theater . phd g: ok . professor f: go . phd g: i 'm sorry . i 'm mean i think it 's doable , grad d: the poor transcribers phd g: i 'm just grad d: they 're gon na hate us . phd g: so , we we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something . phd a: so pairwise . professor f: oh like a round , yeah , like in a a phd g: like a , phd a: yeah , just pairwise , professor f: yeah . phd g: what do you call it ? phd a: or yeah . grad c: round . grad d: a round . professor f: row , row , row your boat . phd g: li - a r like grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , like that . professor f: ok . phd b: it 's gon na require some coordination . phd g: then it would go like h twice as fast , or a third as fast . postdoc e: you have to have a similar pace . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . professor f: yeah . phd g: i 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wan na work on it we should talk to them . professor f: i do n't think we 're gon na collect vast amounts of data that way , phd g: so . grad d: mmm . professor f: but i think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like dan to play around with , phd g: ok . grad d: i think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad d: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . so . phd g: can try it out . grad d: see see what dan thinks . phd g: if we have nothing if we have no agenda we could do it some week . grad d: yeah , right . professor f: yeah , yeah . spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities . phd g: ok . grad d: i thought this was gon na be fast . postdoc e: c c can i can i have an another another question w about this ? grad d: oh well . postdoc e: so , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . like `` wonderful `` has `` one `` in it and and victor borge had a had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . well , i wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of `` one `` in `` wonderful `` versus `` one `` as a digit being read . professor f: that 's `` two `` bad . yeah . phd g: i 'm all `` four `` it . postdoc e: there you go . grad d: not after i `` eight `` though . professor f: uh , they do n't all work as well , do they ? hmm . what does nine work in ? grad c: nein ! grad d: uh . professor f: uh , grad c: you scream it . grad d: nein ! you have to be german , professor f: oh . in german , phd a: that 's german , yeah . phd b: it 's great for the germans . professor f: yeah . grad d: yeah . phd g: oh , oh ! postdoc e: nein . professor f: that 's right ! phd a: yeah . grad d: oh ! grad c: it only sounds w good when you scream it , though . so . professor f: i think everybody 's a little punchy here today . postdoc e: well , i mean , i just wanted to offer that as a possible task professor f: yes . postdoc e: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and i would n't take the inflated version . so he talks about the woman being `` two - derful `` , and and a but , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read . professor f: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i do n't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers . grad d: i think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh timit . professor f: well i do n't know . well i think the question is what the research is , so i mean , i presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here . grad d: hmm . professor f: yeah ok . phd g: right , yeah . professor f: so if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the the the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits a a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but i think someone would have to express interest in that . postdoc e: i see . ok . professor f: i think , to i mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance . postdoc e: ok , thank you . grad d: ok , are we done with digits ? postdoc e: huh . grad d: um , we have asr results from liz , transcript status from jane , and disk space and storage formats from don . does do we have any prefer preference on which way we wan na we wan na go ? phd g: well i was actually gon na skip the asr results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: since i think that 's more important to moving forward , but i mean morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of asr results because we did n't do anything fancy , but i think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . and then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the on the close - talking mikes . phd a: so these grad d: um , why do n't you , if you have a hard copy , why do n't you email it to the list . phd g: so , that 's about the summary but this is morgan has this paper . phd a: yeah , yeah . grad d: oh it 's in the paper . professor f: yeah , so it 's the same thing ? phd g: i mean he he professor f: it 's the same thing i mailed to every everybody that w where it was , phd g: it it 's that paper . grad d: ok . phd g: yeah , yeah . grad d: ok then , it 's already been mailed . phd g: so , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that professor f: yeah . phd g: and it 's let 's see , th i guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad . grad d: horrible ? phd g: and it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech . phd a: so , your your asr results were run on the channels synchronized , phd g: yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time , phd a: ok . ok . ok . phd g: um but as we i mean i wanted to here more about the transcription . if we can get the channel asynchronous or the phd a: yeah . phd g: the closer t that would be very interesting for us phd b: so if phd g: because we professor f: yeah , that 's that 's why i only used the part from use phd a: yeah . professor f: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels phd a: yeah . phd g: right . that 's phd a: yeah sure . yeah . professor f: or mixed channel phd a: yeah . professor f: rather mixed signal . phd b: so if there was a segment of speech this long phd g: cuz phd a: yeah . phd b: and oh and someone said `` oh , `` the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ? grad d: and someone said `` oh `` in the front in the middle . phd a: there were several speakers in it , yeah . phd g: that 's right . in fact i i pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wan na u use them in your talk of phd b: that 's why there 's so many insertion errors ? grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: chuck on the lapel , so chuck wore the lapel three out of four times . grad c: mmm . grad d: i noticed that chuck was wearing the lapel a lot . phd b: early on , yeah . phd g: um , yeah , and i wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was ok . i mean i still and i do n't know why . i 'm but um , grad d: probably how you wear it wore it i would guess . phd g: for you it was or who was next to me or something like that . grad c: yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it . phd a: yeah . phd g: right , but when chuck wore the lapel and morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion insertions are n't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate . grad d: uh - huh . phd a: yeah . phd g: and that 's that 's where the problems come in . so i this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to to show it . grad d: right . phd g: and also i just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh andreas and i called up dan ellis who 's still stuck in switzerland , and we were gon na ask him if if there 're you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . not that we were gon na do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done . grad d: and he said , `` lots lots lots lots . `` phd g: and he we 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap . phd a: yep . phd g: and he 's gon na look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do phd b: so phd g: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature . phd b: so so the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking { comment } based on the other peopl phd g: right . or who 's at any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker . phd a: so yeah phd b: i thought we were just gon na move the boundaries in . phd a: yeah , should it phd g: so . grad d: well that 's with the hand stuff . phd g: so there 's like grad d: but how would you do that automatically ? phd g: well ther there 's phd a: uh , i 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation phd b: right . phd a: and it seems to work pretty well to to get rid of those those overlaps , grad d: i mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do . professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad d: so . phd g: yeah . exactly , so it 's it 's a phd b: so why do you want to do echo cancellation ? phd g: um , it would be techniques used from adaptive adaptive echo cancellation which i do n't know enough about to talk about . phd b: uh - huh . professor f: it just it just to r to remove cross - talk . phd g: um . grad c: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: but , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy phd a: yeah . phd g: i i do n't know what exactly would go into it . phd a: yeah , sure . phd b: so it would be phd g: so the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak phd b: ok . so do sort of what he 's already what he 's trying to do . phd g: right . except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that . phd a: yeah , in another way , phd b: ok , i s i see . phd a: yeah . yeah . phd b: yeah . i see . professor f: yeah , dave dave uh is , um , also gon na be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff , phd g: so . professor f: so we 'll be phd g: and i guess espen ? this is uh is he here too ? professor f: yeah . phd g: may also be working so it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we ca n't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: um , until we can do that kind of processing . and so , once we have some some of yours , phd a: ok . yeah i 'm working on it . phd g: and @ @ we 'll move on . phd b: i think this also ties into one of the things that jane is gon na talk about too . grad d: um , phd g: ok . grad d: i also wanted to say i have done all this chopping up of digits , postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: so i have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . so let 's do that off - line , phd g: oh right . grad d: we do n't need to do it during the meeting . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: right . definitely grad d: and and i have scripts that will extract it out from `` key `` files phd g: uh , and don should grad d: and and do all the naming automatically , phd g: ok . grad c: alright . grad d: so you do n't have to do it by hand . phd g: great . grad c: you 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ? phd g: so that that 's it for the grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: speakers and ok . grad c: not names , but i ds . grad d: yep . yeah , names names in the names to i ds , grad c: ok . grad d: so you phd g: great . grad d: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match . phd g: right . grad c: cool . phd g: so at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth , grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . phd g: and we 're gon na basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your `` m o in one meeting and `` m o - two `` in another meeting and it 's we just need to standardize the grad c: yeah . that was my fault . phd g: um , no it 's it 's professor f: no , i did n't notice that actually . phd g: um , that 's why those comments are s are in there . grad c: yeah . then disregard it then . grad d: yep . so th i now have a script that you can just say basically look up morgan , phd g: so professor f: yeah . phd g: right . ok . grad d: and it will give you his id . phd g: great , great . grad c: ok . grad d: so . um , phd g: terrific . grad d: alright . do we don , you had disk space and storage formats . is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with chuck at some other time ? grad c: um , i had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and i do n't know exactly who to ask . i thought that maybe you would be the the person to talk to . so , is it a lossless compression { comment } when you compress , grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: so grad d: entropy coding . grad c: it just uses entropy coding ? grad d: so . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess my question would be is i just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . um , yeah , which is grad d: and i assume half of it is scratch and half of it is ? grad c: i 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it . grad d: probably , yeah . grad c: but um , professor f: that 's typical , huh . grad c: yeah , i do n't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so grad d: that does n't matter . grad c: but grad d: you can access it from anywhere in icsi . n grad c: ok . alright . how do you do that ? professor f: in fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , { comment } or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen grad d: n grad c: eighteen . phd g: eigh - eighteen . it was a spare that dave had around grad d: slash n slash machine name , slash x a in all likelihood . professor f: oh ok . grad c: oh i see . ok . alright , i did know that . grad d: um , so the the only question is how much of it the distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not . grad c: mm - hmm . right . grad d: so what you wan na do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate . grad c: ok . grad d: so , the stuff that is n't backed up is not a big deal because disks do n't crash very frequently , grad c: right . grad d: as long as you can regenerate it . grad c: right . i mean all of this stuff can be regenerated , phd g: yeah it 's grad c: it 's just a question grad d: then put it all on scratch phd g: well the grad d: because we 're icsi is is bottlenecked by backup . postdoc e: mm - hmm , very good point . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: so we wan na put phd g: well i 'd leave all the all the transcript stuff should n't should be backed up , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but all the waveform { comment } sound files should not be backed up , grad c: yeah , i guess right . phd g: the ones that you write out . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? um grad d: it just depends on your tools . i mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools ca n't take shortened format , i would leave them expanded , grad c: right . grad d: so you do n't have to unshorten them every single time you wan na do anything . grad c: ok . phd g: we can downsample them , grad c: do you think that 'd be ok ? phd g: so . grad c: to downsample them ? phd g: yeah . yeah , we get the same performance . grad c: ok . phd g: i mean the r the front - end on the sri recognizer just downsamples them on the fly , grad c: yeah , i guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques . phd g: so so that 's professor f: i i i 'm sorry phd g: yeah , if professor f: yeah , l i mean over all our data , we we want to not downsample . phd g: fe you 'd you wan na not . ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we 're what we 're doing is we 're writing out i mean , this is just a question . we 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from thilo , or or jane 's transcribers , you know , we we chop it there . professor f: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: and the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth . professor f: yeah . phd g: and those are the ones that we 're storing . grad d: yeah , as i said , since that 's it 's regeneratable , what i would do is take downsample it , phd g: so yeah . grad d: and compress it however you 're e the sri recognizer wants to take it in . phd g: yeah . professor f: ye phd g: so we ca n't shorten them , grad c: right . phd g: but we can downsample them . professor f: yeah , i mean yeah , i 'm sorry . phd g: so . professor f: as yeah , as long as there is a a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , { comment } then , grad c: r yeah . phd g: oh yeah th grad c: yeah those are gon na be kept . phd g: yeah . yeah . that that 's why we need more disk space professor f: uuu phd g: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um professor f: yeah . grad d: right . professor f: then it 's fine . but for for fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on phd g: oh yeah . grad c: right . grad d: yep . phd g: no . we always have the original long ones . professor f: we would like to phd b: so the sri front - end wo n't take a uh an an a large audio file name and then a a list of segments to chop out { comment } from that large audio file ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they actually have to be chopped out already ? phd g: um , it 's better if they 're chopped out , phd b: uh - huh . phd g: and and it it will be yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . you c you can actually move them around . grad d: and that 's the whole point about the naming conventions phd g: uh , you can get rid of grad d: is that you could run all the english speaking , phd g: yeah , it it 's a lot faster . grad d: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers , phd g: right . you can grab everything with the word `` the `` in it , grad d: and all the men , and all the women . yeah . phd g: and it 's that 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and so in principle , yeah , you could do that , phd b: i do n't i do n't think that 's really right . phd g: but it 's but it 's um grad d: `` that 's just not right , man . `` the the point phd g: these are long these are long grad d: so so s for example , what if you wanted to run run all the native speakers . phd g: you know . this is an hour of speech . grad d: right , so if if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . the way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . and so , you know , you just say phd g: we - yeah that 's so that 's part of it grad d: y so you just say you know `` asterisk e asterisk dot wave `` , and you get what you want . phd g: is right . and the other part is just that once they 're written out it it is a lot faster to to process them . grad d: rather than doing seeks through the file . phd g: so . otherwise , you 're just accessing grad d: this is all just temporary access , so i do n't i think it 's all just it 's fine . you know . fine to do it however is convenient . phd g: right . professor f: i mean it just depends how big the file is . if the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks phd g: right . the other thing is that , believe it or not i mean , we have some professor f: but . grad d: yeah and they do n't . two gig ? phd g: so we 're also looking at these in waves like for the alignments and so forth . you ca n't load an hour of speech into x waves . professor f: yeah . phd g: you need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the transcriber program um grad d: yes you can . phd b: yeah , you you can give waves a start and an end time . and middle . phd g: yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into x waves , you 'll be waiting there for phd b: no , i i 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file , phd g: oh phd b: i 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . and it 'll just go and pull out that section . grad d: i th w the transcribers did n't have any problem with that did they jane ? postdoc e: what 's th u w in what respect ? phd g: loading the long phd a: no , with the transcriber tool , it 's no problem . grad d: they loaded they loaded the long long files into x waves . phd g: it takes a very long ti phd a: yeah just to load a transcription postdoc e: in the in mm - hmm . phd a: phd g: right . phd a: takes a long time , phd g: it takes a l very long time . phd a: but not for the wavefile . the wavefile is there immediately . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad d: are you talking about transcriber or x waves ? phd g: huh . phd a: yeah . oh , i 'm tr talking about transcriber . phd g: actually , you 're talking about transcriber , right ? phd a: yeah . grad d: because because i we used x waves to do the digits . postdoc e: it was also true of the digits task which was x waves . grad d: and they were loading the full mixed files then , postdoc e: yeah . very quickly . grad d: and it did n't seem to be any problem . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: huh . well we we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a it - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file , grad d: hmm . seemed really fast . phd g: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um , grad d: well regardless , it 's professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean it 's i i think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two you know , the begin and end times . um , but i think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones . grad d: and , it 's no problem , right ? phd g: yeah , it 's grad d: because it 's not backed up . phd g: yeah . grad d: so we just phd g: it 's it 's just grad d: if we do n't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . you know , it 's not a big deal . postdoc e: you 're right about the backup being a bottleneck . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's good to think towards scratch . phd g: yeah , so these would n't be backed up , the postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yep . phd g: right . grad d: so remind me afterward phd g: and grad d: and i 'll and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff . grad c: ok . alright . i mean , i could just u do a du on it right ? and just see which how much is on each so . grad d: yep . each partition . and you wan na use , either xa or scratch . grad c: ok . grad d: well x question mark , anything starting with x is scratch . grad c: ok . postdoc e: with two two digits . grad d: two digits , right , xa , xb , xc . ok ? professor f: so , @ @ . grad d: jane ? postdoc e: ok . so i got a little print - out here . so three on this side , three on this side . and i stapled them . ok . alright so , first of all , um , there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and and i can tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ { comment } natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . and , um , so , i did a bunch of checks , and the first thing i did was obviously a spell - check . and at that point i discovered certain things like , um , `` accommodate `` with one `` m `` , that kind of thing . and then , in addition to that , i did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things phd b: i 'm i 'm sorry to interrupt postdoc e: yeah ? phd b: you could could i just back up a little bit postdoc e: sure , please , phd b: and postdoc e: yeah , please , please . phd b: so you 're doing these so the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd b: and they do their pass over it . postdoc e: yes . phd b: and then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you , postdoc e: that 's right . phd b: and you begin these sanit these quality checks . postdoc e: exactly . i do these checks . phd b: ok . postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: ok . postdoc e: exactly . yeah . thank you . and so , uh , i do a an exhaustive listing of the forms actually , i will go through this in in order , so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that . grad d: so on the fifth page , seven down postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . exactly ! exactly ! alright so , a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point i pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . and th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . and if not , then that gets checked . then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called `` spoken - forms `` . so there mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . but there 's w and that that 's done with the assumption that pronunciation variants can be handled . so for things like `` and `` , the fact that someone does n't say the `` d `` , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . however , things like `` cuz `` where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons f for those reasons i i kept that separate , and used the convention of using `` cuz `` for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . so `` wan na `` is another one , `` going `` uh , `` gon na `` is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model , to handle . and chuck , you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , did n't you ? did i phd b: i do n't remember . postdoc e: ok . so so it might not have been it might not have been you , phd b: hmm . postdoc e: but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . ok , so after that , let 's see , phd b: so that was part of the spell - check , { comment } or was that that was after the spell - check ? postdoc e: um . well so when i get the exhau so the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: so it gets `` cuz `` and `` wan na `` and that grad d: and then you gloss them ? postdoc e: yeah , mm - hmm . run it through i have a sed you know , so i do sed script saying whenever you see `` gon na `` you know , `` convert it to gon na `` , you know , `` gloss equals quote going - to quote `` , you know . and with all these things being in curly brackets grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so they 're always distinctive . ok , i also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , or anything which i 've classified as an acronym , and a pronounced acronym . and the way i tag ac pronounced acronyms is that i have underscores between the components . so if it 's `` acl `` then it 's `` a `` underscore `` c `` underscore `` l `` . grad d: and so so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? postdoc e: and the th yes . uh - huh , yeah . grad d: whew ! postdoc e: ok , so now . uh and a grad d: we are acronym - loaded . phd g: um , can i ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ? postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , for a word like `` because `` is it that it 's always predictably `` because `` ? i mean , is `` cuz `` always meaning `` because `` ? postdoc e: yes , but not the reverse . so sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting , and if if they actually said `` because `` , then it 's written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does n't even figure into the equation . professor f: but but in our meetings people do n't say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` phd g: beca - because right . { comment } right . grad d: except right there . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: um , so , i guess so , from the point of view of postdoc e: that 's a good point . phd g: the the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` , grad d: well , phd g: and so if we know that `` cuz `` postdoc e: that 's fine . grad d: but they have the gloss . postdoc e: well don has a script . grad c: yeah . phd g: but , we do n't grad d: you have the gloss form so you always replace it . postdoc e: exactly . grad d: if that 's how what you wan na do . postdoc e: uh - huh . and don knows this , grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that grad c: i replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it 's glossed . phd g: s right . but , if it 's ok . grad c: and phd g: but then there are other glosses that we do n't replace , right ? because postdoc e: yes . and that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses , phd g: ok . so , then it 's fine . postdoc e: on the different on the different types of comments , which we 'll which we 'll see in just a second . grad c: right . phd g: ok . postdoc e: so the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . there 're comments of four types . so this is a good time to introduce that . the four types . w and maybe we 'll expand that grad d: um postdoc e: but the but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . one of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned . grad d: can ca postdoc e: another type is , um grad d: so a are we done with acronyms ? cuz i had a question on what what this meant . postdoc e: i 'm still doing the overview . i have n't actually gotten here yet . grad d: oh i 'm sorry . postdoc e: ok so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . uh , then you have if it 's uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that are n't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of `` voc `` . phd a: whew ! postdoc e: and the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization . phd b: so then it just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there . postdoc e: oh yeah , so i e this would grad d: a comment , basically . postdoc e: let 's just take one example . phd b: oh , oh , oh . postdoc e: and then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . they always end . so it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . and then the third type right now , uh , is m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . so it could be something like , you know , `` referring to so - and - so `` , `` talking about such - and - such `` , uh , you know , `` looking at so - and - so `` . phd b: so on the m postdoc e: yeah . phd b: on the middle t so , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . but in the middle two th - it 's not applying to anything , right ? postdoc e: yeah , and this gets substituted here . grad d: they 're impulsive . phd b: ok . postdoc e: huh - uh . no , they 're events . phd b: ok . grad d: well the `` qual `` can be the `` qual `` is applying to the left . postdoc e: they 're actually they have the status of events . phd b: right , i just meant the middle two ones , yeah . grad d: yep . postdoc e: well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to `` laugh `` , there 's another one which is `` while laughing `` , grad d: `` while laughing `` . postdoc e: and that is , uh , i i an argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we have n't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have `` while laughing `` , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . have n't been awfully precise about that , but i have here , now we 're about to get to the to this now , i have frequencies . so you 'll see how often these different things occur . but , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm - hmm `` and `` mm - hmm `` and `` ha `` and `` uh - uh `` and all these different types . and , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been chuck , { comment } about , um about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for `` mm - hmmm `` with three m 's , and it 's transcribed with two m 's , that it might uh , that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because um , i p i personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . so , right now i 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms . grad d: oh good . postdoc e: i i should say grad d: so it 's a small list . postdoc e: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . so , i 'm gon na i 'm gon na i 'm gon na check grad d: that that 's known as `` found data `` . postdoc e: yeah , yeah . acsu - actually yeah . i got it was stored in a place i did n't expect , grad c: it 's like the z zapruder film . postdoc e: so and and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened . professor f: i wan na work with lost data . grad d: yeah . it 's much easier . postdoc e: and this is this 'll be great . so i 'll i 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably . grad d: hmm . postdoc e: and so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . but you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things . grad d: yeah . postdoc e: and i made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you would n't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . and , um grad c: jane , can i ask you a question ? what 's that very last one correspond to ? postdoc e: sure . grad c: i do n't even know how to pronounce that . postdoc e: well , yeah . now that that s only occurs once , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: and i 'm thinking of changing that . phd g: right . grad c: uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ? postdoc e: so - c i have n't listened to it so i do n't know . grad c: like their hair 's on fire ? postdoc e: i have n't heard it actually . i n i need to listen to that one . grad d: ah ! phd a: it 's the castle of ah ! phd g: actually we we gave this to our pronunciation person , grad c: uh , it looks like that . phd g: she 's like , `` i do n't know what that is either `` . so . postdoc e: did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? cuz i have n't heard it . phd g: no , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , were n't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just did n't listen so she did n't know . we just we 're waiting on that just to do the alignments . postdoc e: yeah . yeah i 'm curious to se hear what it is , but i did n't know wan na change it to something else until i knew . grad c: right . phd g: maybe it 's `` argh `` ? postdoc e: well , sss , { comment } you know phd g: grad c: but that 's not really like postdoc e: hhh . grad c: no one really says `` argh , `` you know , postdoc e: phd g: yeah . right , no one say grad c: it 's not professor f: well , you just did . phd b: except for now ! grad c: well , there 's another there 's another word error . grad d: postdoc e: yeah . that 's right . grad d: yes , that 's right . we 're gon na have a big problem when we talk about that . grad c: cha - ching . phd g: ah . phd b: we 're gon na never recognize this meeting . grad d: in monty python you say `` argh `` a lot . postdoc e: ok . grad c: oh yeah ? grad d: so . well , or if you 're a c programmer . grad c: mmm . grad d: you say arg - c and arg - v all the time . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . grad c: that 's true . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah phd g: but it has a different prosody . professor f: arg . grad d: it does . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: arg arg - max , arg - min , yeah . grad d: ah ! postdoc e: uh , phd g: so , jane , what 's the d grad d: maybe he died while dictating . postdoc e: so . phd g: i have one question about the the `` eh `` versus like the `` ah `` and the `` uh `` . postdoc e: that 's partly a nonnative - native thing , phd g: ok . postdoc e: but i have found `` eh `` in native speakers too . phd g: postdoc e: but it 's mostly non - native phd a: h phd b: that 's `` eh `` versus `` ah `` ? phd g: s ok . postdoc e: eh . grad d: eh ? phd g: `` eh , `` yeah right , cuz there were were some speakers that did definite `` eh 's `` postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but right now we phd b: they were the canadians , right ? professor f: canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . phd g: so , it it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real `` eh `` and the one that 's just like `` uh `` or transcribed `` aaa `` postdoc e: exactly . phd g: cuz in like in switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like `` uh `` . grad d: you mean just the single letter `` a `` { comment } as in the particle ? phd a: the transcription or grad d: article . phd g: no , no , i mean like the the `` uh `` , postdoc e: `` uh `` . grad d: oh . phd g: or the `` uh `` , `` eh `` , `` ah `` were all the same . and then , we have this additional non - native version of uh , like `` eeh `` . grad c: all the `` eh `` 's i 've seen have been like that . they 've been like `` eh `` like that have bee has been transcribed to `` eh `` . and sometimes it 's stronger , postdoc e: mm - hmm , that 's right . grad c: like `` eeh `` { comment } which is like closer to `` eh `` . postdoc e: mmm . phd g: right . grad c: but . grad d: i 'm just these poor transcribers , they 're gon na hate this meeting . postdoc e: yeah . grad c: i know . we should go off - line . postdoc e: well , we 're not doing we 're not doing length . professor f: quick thilo , do a do a filled pause for us . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . phd a: ooo { comment } no . phd g: but you 're a native german speaker so it 's not a not a issue for phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's only grad d: them canadians . phd g: onl yeah . no , only if you do n't have lax vowels , i guess . grad d: oh . phd g: right . postdoc e: this makes sense . phd g: so it 's like japanese and spanish postdoc e: yeah i i think you 've uh - huh , yeah . grad d: oh i see . professor f: uh - huh . phd g: and grad d: i did n't get that , postdoc e: that makes sense . grad d: ok . postdoc e: yeah , and so , you know , i mean , th th i have there are some , um , americans who who are using this `` eh `` too , and i have n't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being `` uh 's `` but , uh , i my spot - checking has made me think that we do have `` eh `` in also , um , american e e data represented here . but any case , that 's the this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list , phd g: yeah this is great . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah , it 's good , postdoc e: and this is grad d: yeah . phd g: this is really really helpful . postdoc e: functionally pretty , you know , also it was fascinating , i was listening to some of these , uh , i guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to to do a search for the `` mm - hmm 's `` . and you get `` mm - hmm `` and diff everybody 's doing it . grad d: and just listen to them ? yeah . postdoc e: just i wanted to say i w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a `` mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: performance art , postdoc e: mm - hmm . `` grad d: just extract them all . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's really it 's really fun to listen to . phd b: morgan can make a song out of it . postdoc e: all these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's it 's the same item . it 's very interesting . ok . uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber was n't sure of , grad d: oh i see . postdoc e: and i have n't been able to listen to to to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them grad d: o how about question mark ? postdoc e: cuz it 's the only place where where they 're used . phd a: the question marks , yeah . what are those ? postdoc e: question mark is punctuation . so it they said that @ @ grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: oh . postdoc e: um , `` dc ? `` phd a: ah . grad d: so they so it 's `` plp ? `` postdoc e: exactly . exactly . yeah , so the only well , and i do have a stress marker here . sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um professor f: i 'm sorry , i i got lost here . what - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ? postdoc e: the parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ann , but was n't entirely sure . so i 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no , professor f: ah . postdoc e: and then get rid of the parentheses . phd g: right . postdoc e: but the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain . grad d: yeah , p - make is phd g: yeah i mean cuz they they have no idea , grad d: that 's a good one . that 's correct . phd g: right . if you hear ctpd , i mean , they do pretty well professor f: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: but it 's professor f: i i do n't recognize a lot of these . phd g: you know how are how are they gon na know ? grad c: yeah . grad d: i know ! i i was saying that i think a lot of them are the networks meeting . professor f: i postdoc e: i think that 's true . professor f: maybe . postdoc e: yeah , absolutely . grad d: i see a few . postdoc e: nsa , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: a lot of these are are coming from them . i listened to some of that . grad c: yeah , we do n't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting . grad d: although i see i see plenty of uh postdoc e: yeah . yeah . i agree . grad c: it 's not so bad . phd g: right . postdoc e: and robustness has a fair amount , phd a: yeah . grad c: mmm . postdoc e: but the nsa group is just very very many . phd g: the recognizer , it is funny . kept getting pta for pda . grad d: yeah , that 's pretty close . professor f: yeah . phd g: this is close , right , grad c: that 's not bad . phd g: and the pta was in these , uh , topics about children , postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , anyway . postdoc e: that 's interesting . phd g: is the p - pta working ? postdoc e: right and sometimes , i mean , you see a couple of these that are actually `` ok 's `` so it 's it 's may be that they got to the point where i mean it was low enough understandable understandability that they were n't entirely sure the person said `` ok . `` you know , so it is n't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym , grad c: there 's a lot of `` ok 's `` . postdoc e: but just n needs to be double checked . now we get to the comments . this professor f: the number to the left is the number of incidences ? grad d: count . yep . postdoc e: number of times out of the entire database , professor f: uh - huh . postdoc e: w except for that last thirty minutes i have n't checked yet . professor f: so cts is really big here , grad d: yeah , i wonder what it is . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd a: so what is the difference between `` papers rustling `` and `` rustling papers `` ? professor f: ip , i know what ip is . postdoc e: i 'd have to listen . i i i agree . i w i 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: but , i i 'm a little hesitant to to collapse across categories unless i actually listen to them . phd a: seems so . professor f: ok . grad d: oh i 'm sure we 've said xml more than five times . postdoc e: well , then , at least now . phd a: now it 's at least six times , yeah . professor f: s s six now , yeah . postdoc e: yeah . six . ok well professor f: wh - the self - referential aspect of these these p phd g: i 'm wai grad c: yeah . grad d: yes , it 's very bad . phd g: well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ? grad d: yes . phd g: y no normally you do n't go around saying , `` now you 've said it six times . grad d: yeah { comment } that 's right . phd g: now you 've said `` postdoc e: but did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of `` ok `` ? phd a: seven hundred eighty - five instances . postdoc e: and that 's just without the without punc punctuation . grad c: yeah . grad d: yep . professor f: no , i did n't . yeah . grad d: and that 's an underestimate postdoc e: extra forty one if it 's questioned . phd b: where 's that ? grad d: cuz they 're yep . professor f: so th postdoc e: on the page two of acronyms . grad c: is this after like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of `` ok `` to this ? professor f: yeah . seven hundred eighty . postdoc e: yeah . of `` ok `` , yes . grad c: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . so that 's the single existing convention for `` ok `` . phd b: wait a minute , w s professor f: so now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight . postdoc e: yeah that 's grad c: although , what 's there 's one with a slash after it . that 's kind of disturbing . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know . postdoc e: that 's that 's i looked for that one . phd g: yeah . grad c: anyway . postdoc e: i actually explicitly looked for that one , grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think that , um , i i 'm not exactly sure about that . phd b: was that somewhere where they were gon na say `` new speaker `` or something ? postdoc e: no , i looked for that , but that does n't actually exist . and it may be , i do n't i ca n't explain that . grad c: that 's alright . i 'm just pointing that out . postdoc e: i i it 's the only grad c: there 's postdoc e: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and i think it 's it 's an epiphenomenon . phd g: well there 's not @ @ . grad d: so i 'll just i was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that `` to be `` or `` not to be `` . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: there 's no tilde in front of it , postdoc e: oh that 's cute . phd b: so . postdoc e: that 's funny . yeah . grad d: ok anyways , sorry . postdoc e: ok . grad d: `` try to stay on topic , adam . `` postdoc e: there is th one y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . so now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes . grad d: ok so , um , on some of these quals , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: are they really quals , or are they glosses ? so like there 's a `` qual tcl `` . postdoc e: `` tcl `` . where do you see that ? grad d: uh postdoc e: oh , oh . the reason is because w it was said `` tickle `` . professor f: what 's a qual ? grad d: oh i see , i see . grad c: hmm . grad d: so it 's not gloss . ok , i see . postdoc e: yep . grad c: sh - should n't it be `` qual tickle `` or something ? grad d: it was n't said `` tcl `` . of course . grad c: like it 's not postdoc e: on the in the actual script in the actual transcript , i s i so this this happens in the very first one . grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i actually wrote it as `` tickle `` . grad c: ok . postdoc e: because we they did n't say `` tcl `` , they said `` tickle `` . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and then , following that is `` qual tcl `` . phd g: right . grad c: oh i see . ok . professor f: i f i forget , what 's qual ? postdoc e: qual - qualifier . phd b: it 's just comment about what they said . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: comment . grad c: it 's not something you wan na replace with postdoc e: comment or contextual comment . phd b: so they did n't mean `` tickle `` as in elmo , grad c: but phd a: tickle ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they meant `` tickle `` as in grad d: yeah . phd g: huh . professor f: right . phd g: but at some point i mean , we probably shoul grad d: we 'll probably add it to the language model . phd g: but we should add it to the dictionar grad d: yeah . phd g: no , to the pronunciation model . grad d: what did i say ? phd a: to the language model model . phd g: language , uh grad d: well both . phd b: add what , liz ? grad d: we can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model . phd g: oh lan oh ok - we ok phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of `` tickle `` . grad d: well `` tickle `` was pronounced `` tickle `` . right ? phd a: `` tickle `` is pronounced `` tickle `` ? phd b: what are you saying ? grad d: it 's pronounced the same it 's pronounced the same as the verb . phd g: i 'm sorry ! grad d: so i think it 's the language model that makes it different . phd g: oh , sorry . what i meant is that there should be a pronunciation `` tickle `` for tcl as a word . phd a: yeah . grad d: oh i see . phd g: and that word in the in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: right . right . professor f: right . phd g: yeah you never would put `` tickle `` in the language model in that form , postdoc e: grad d: right . phd g: yeah . right . there 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and phd b: so how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are . phd g: yes . yeah . yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . tcl 's one of them . grad d: and and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously . phd g: um , y yeah . grad d: right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously . grad c: it 's just disturbing . phd g: right . phd b: hmm . phd g: right . we have this there is this thing i was gon na talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the like spelling people 's names and so forth . if we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had deborah tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it , grad d: you can correct it . yeah . phd g: but but we need to make sure we have the mispel if it does n't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: things like that . grad d: these are so funny to read . postdoc e: well , of course now the the tannen corre the spelling c change . phd g: so . postdoc e: uh , that 's what gets i i picked those up in the frequency check . phd g: right . right . so if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's it 's not an issue , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our the dictionary up to date . and then , yeah , in the case of `` tickle `` i guess we would just have a , you know , word `` tcl `` which phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: you add it to the dictionary . phd g: which normally would be an acronym , you know , `` tcl `` grad d: right . phd g: but just has another pronunciation . grad d: yep . postdoc e: `` icsi `` is is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say `` icsi . `` grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , i actually know phd g: oh yeah . postdoc e: they were said as letters . the others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz i have n't been able to go to all the ic icsi things , phd g: right , exactly . postdoc e: and { comment } and until they 've been listened to they stay as `` icsi `` . grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: right . professor f: don and i were just noticing , love this one over on page three , `` vocal vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . `` grad c: that 's great . grad d: it 's this , `` rrre - rrre - rrre `` . it was me . postdoc e: it was ! in fact , it was ! yeah ! grad d: a lot of these are me the the `` beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . `` postdoc e: he he s he said he said get phd a: to head . grad d: that was the i was imitating uh , beeping out postdoc e: yeah , that 's it . professor f: beep . postdoc e: perfect . yeah that 's it . professor f: yeah . phd g: oh there is something spelled out `` beeeeeep `` grad c: um postdoc e: that 's it . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , that 's that 's been changed . phd g: in the old thank you . because he was saying , `` how many e 's do i have to allow for ? `` grad c: you need a lot of grad d: what i meant was `` beep `` . grad c: you need a lot of qualification adam . grad d: i guess so . postdoc e: that 's been changed . so , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in . grad c: subtext . grad d: anyway . postdoc e: s chan brought it down . phd g: right , thanks , yeah . grad d: so they 're vocalization , phd g: right . postdoc e: and those of course get get picked up in the frequency check grad d: glosses . postdoc e: because you see `` beep `` phd g: right . postdoc e: and you know i mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing . phd g: right . right . postdoc e: i have the there 're various things like `` breathe `` versus `` breath `` versus `` inhale `` and , hhh , you know , i do n't know . i i think they do n't have any implications for anything else so it 's like i 'm tempted to leave them for now an and it 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . we can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them . phd g: yeah . professor f: `` sings finale - type song `` grad c: yeah , that was in the first meeting . professor f: that 's that 's good . phd g: yeah . grad d: um , postdoc e: yeah , but i do n't actually remember what it was . but that was eric did that . professor f: yeah . grad d: so on postdoc e: yeah . professor f: tah - dah ! i do n't know . postdoc e: i think maybe something like that . professor f: something like that maybe , yeah . postdoc e: well , that 'd qualify . grad d: on the glosses for numbers , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done . postdoc e: ok . interesting question . grad d: there 's a postdoc e: yes . ok , now first of all ooo - ooo ! very important . grad d: `` ooo - ooo . `` postdoc e: uh chuck chuck led to a refinement here which is to add `` nums `` if these are parts of the read numbers . now you already know i that i had , uh , in places where they had n't transcribed numbers , i put `` numbers `` in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . and , um , d chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . and that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five or three hundred and five times right now which is just well n n `` nums `` by itself grad d: `` nums `` , yeah . postdoc e: which means this is part of the numbers task . i may change it to `` digits `` . i mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ? grad d: yep . postdoc e: have to think about what 's the best for for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , `` numbers `` and `` nums `` are a part of this digits task thing . um , now th then i have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . um , i did n't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . and actually , th um , the reason i b did it this way was because i initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . so you say , `` seve - seventy eight point two `` , or whatever . and there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . you ca n't have the seven and grad d: so what 's to the left of these ? postdoc e: the left is i so example the very first one , grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it would be , spelled out in words , `` point five `` . grad d: ok , that 's what i was asking . right . postdoc e: only it 's spelled out in words . grad d: point five , yeah . postdoc e: so i this is also spelled out in in words . `` point five . `` grad d: good . postdoc e: and then , in here , `` nums `` , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . it comes out as `` nums quote dot five `` . grad d: ok now , the other example is , in the glosses right there , postdoc e: thank you . grad d: `` gloss one one one dash one three zero `` . grad c: right . grad d: what what 's to the left of that ? postdoc e: well now in that case it 's people saying things like `` one one one dash so - and - so `` or they 're saying uh `` two i mean zero `` whatever . grad d: ok . postdoc e: and in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gon na be included in the read digits anyway , phd b: so there will be a `` nums `` tag on those lines ? postdoc e: so i m in the uh there is . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . i 've added that all now too . grad c: there 's a `` numbers `` tag grad d: good . grad c: i 'm sorry i 'm i did n't follow that last thing . phd g: wait . postdoc e: so , so gloss in the same line that would have `` gloss quote one one one dash one thirty `` , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , `` curly bracket nums curly bracket `` . grad c: right . postdoc e: so if you if you did a , uh , a `` grep minus v nums `` phd g: oh , so you could do `` grep minus v nums `` . postdoc e: and you get rid of anything that was read . phd g: so that 's the yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: so there would n't be something like i if somebody said something like , `` boy , i 'm really tired , ok . `` and then started reading that would be on a separate line ? postdoc e: yes . phd g: ok great . cuz i was doing the `` grep minus v `` quick and dirty and looked like that was working ok , postdoc e: mm - hmm . good . phd g: but postdoc e: yep . phd g: great . now why do we what 's the reason for having like the point five have the `` nums `` on it ? is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ? postdoc e: this is more because phd g: or postdoc e: yeah . oh these are all these , the `` nums point `` , this all where they 're saying `` point `` something or other . phd g: these are all like inside the spontaneous postdoc e: and the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . i mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know eh , `` so in the data column five has `` , you know , `` one point five compared to seventy nine point six `` , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . and this is just really a a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said . grad d: label it . phd g: oh ok . postdoc e: so this is where chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in , phd g: i see . postdoc e: where we 're gon na have a master file of the channelized data . um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis . and , um , the implication that that i have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . these will just be things that are generated , grad d: right postdoc e: and e by using scripts . phd g: ok . grad d: master copies of superset . postdoc e: when things change then the the script will cham change but the but there wo n't be stored copies of in different versions of things . grad d: good . phd g: so , i guess i 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of `` nums `` { comment } where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech . phd b: right . right . that would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something . phd g: um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we do n't see the `` point five `` , or or it 's not there , then we phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: a just an and actually for things like `` seven eighths `` , or people do fractions too i guess , you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that , postdoc e: except phd g: or as long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust . postdoc e: well phd g: cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` nums `` string in it . phd b: i suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace nums curly brace `` . postdoc e: well ex - exactly . phd b: i mean that would be the postdoc e: exactly . that was that was my motivation . and i these can be changed , like i said . phd g: yeah . postdoc e: you know , i mean , as i said i was considering changing it to `` digits `` . and , it just i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know . phd b: right . phd g: it would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . and we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . but you 're right , we could do it this way , it it should work . um , phd b: yeah , and it makes it i guess the thing about phd g: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference phd b: yeah . phd g: because one 's in the context of a you know , a transcribed word string , phd b: right . postdoc e: the other thing is you can get really so minute with these things phd g: and so postdoc e: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` . now i i could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ? grad d: hmm . postdoc e: i it 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are and we could always add it later . percent 's easy to detect . point however is is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . and you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying `` well the first point i wan na make is so - and - so `` and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals . phd b: so liz , what does the recognizer do , postdoc e: so . phd b: uh , professor f: hmm . phd b: what does the sri recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` . does it output the word phd g: `` seven point five `` . phd b: right , the word `` seven `` ? grad d: well , the numbers ? phd b: the number `` seven `` ? phd g: the word . phd b: the word `` seven `` , ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: so i 'd so `` i 'd like i 'd like to talk about point five `` . phd g: and and actually , you know the language professor f: yeah . phd g: it 's the same point , actually , the the p you know , the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to 's `` and so there 's no distinction there . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: it 's just just the word `` point `` has yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if even if it 's a actually even like the word `` read `` { comment } and `` read `` those are two different words . they 're spelled the same way , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: and they 're still gon na be transcribed as read . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd g: so , yeah , i i like the idea of having this in there , i just i was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech because i what if we have like `` read letters `` or , i do n't know , grad d: we might wan na just a separate tag that says it 's read . phd g: like `` read something `` like `` read `` grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah , basically . but other than that i it sounds great . grad d: yeah . ok ? are we done ? postdoc e: well i wanted to say also regarding the channelized data , grad d: oh , i guess we 're not done . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that , um , thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was chuc - chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you if you said , `` oh `` and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one grad d: well postdoc e: as for the longer utterances , grad d: we did that for one meeting , right , postdoc e: and grad d: so you have that data do n't you ? phd a: yeah , that 's the training data . postdoc e: and he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: he gave me he did the very nice , he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . and at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . in addition the i 've i have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually . phd a: oh great . postdoc e: so right now , um , i know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and i 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started . phd a: oh great . ok . postdoc e: but if if you know , and i and he 's gon na give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose . phd a: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: because it 's true , i mean , if we could do the the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . and , um . so this is gon na be useful to expand this . phd a: so i i thought we we sh we sh perhaps we should try to to start with those channelized versions just to just to try it . give it give one tr transcriber the the channelized version of of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if if that 's better or if they if they can postdoc e: you mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ? phd a: yeah . yeah . yeah . postdoc e: that 'd be excellent . yeah , that 'd be really great . as it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time uh , aligned . i also wan na tell um , i also wanted to r raise the issue that ok so , there 's this idea we 're gon na have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gon na be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . and actually the master phd b: two or more . two or more different functions . postdoc e: two two or more . and that the master is gon na be the channelized version . phd b: right . postdoc e: so right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . and now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . but i wanted to get all the finished all the checks phd b: yeah , so that has implications for your script . grad c: yeah . so , uh , have those e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? and i know i 've seen @ @ i 've seen they 've been channelized , postdoc e: yes , they have . grad d: all ten hours ? grad c: but postdoc e: except for the missing thirty minutes . grad c: have they uh have they been has the time have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel grad d: great . postdoc e: uh , for for a total of like twenty m f for a total of let 's see , four times total of about an thirty minutes . that 's that 's been the case . grad c: so , postdoc e: and plus the training , whatever you have . grad c: i guess , i mean , i do n't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but i grad d: well it 's just we 're missing tea . grad c: yeah , i know . grad d: so . grad c: no , but i mean my question is like should i wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before i do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the into the our layer of uh transcripts . postdoc e: well , you know the problem the problem is that some some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring are to combine bins that were time bins which were previously separate . and the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off . grad c: right . postdoc e: and so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . and , grad c: ok . no i know i know that adjusting those things are gon na is gon na make it better . postdoc e: so i it 's gon na be a more reliable thing and i 'm not sure grad c: i mean i 'm sure about that , postdoc e: yeah . grad c: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or postdoc e: well partly it depends on how um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time , grad c: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes . grad c: yeah , i do n't doubt it . um , so . phd b: so right now the what you 're doing is you 're taking the uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ? grad c: yeah . i 'm doing it myself . i mean i if the time markings are n't different across channels , like the channelized version really does n't have any more information . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , i was just i mean , originally i had done before like the channelized versions were coming out . phd b: right . right . grad c: um , phd b: so i i th i think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals . grad c: and so it 's a question of like what mm - hmm . mm - hmm . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on . postdoc e: yep . mm - hmm . grad c: right . phd b: um , so postdoc e: yeah , i mean phd b: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated postdoc e: yeah . phd b: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions . grad c: ok . phd b: but the i guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that , grad c: i know . phd b: so , maybe grad c: right . postdoc e: but that phd g: but that that 's not hard . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad c: no . phd g: i i think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription phd b: ok . phd g: so if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you do n't where the word which words moved . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd g: and that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit uh , having to rerun the processing . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: the cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial . grad c: yeah . i mean as long as it can all be done automatically , i mean , then that 's not a concern . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , if i just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem . phd g: right . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: um , so yeah . as long as we 're at that point . and i know exactly like what the steps will work what 's going on , in the editing process , phd b: yeah . grad c: so . ok . postdoc e: so that 's i i mean i could there were other checks that i did , but it 's i think that we 've unless you think there 's anything else , i think that i 've covered it . professor f: yeah . phd b: i ca n't think of any of the other ones . postdoc e: ok . great . professor f: ok . grad d: oop ! man !

transcribers will be given channelized data that has been segmented for speech/non-speech boundaries to determine whether such pre-processing facilitates the transcription process .

what was included in the transcription formalization ? </s> grad d: and we already got the crash out of the way . it did crash , so i feel much better , earlier . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: interesting . hmm . professor f: will you get the door , and ? grad d: ok , so um . professor f: ok . you collected an agenda , huh ? grad d: i did collect an agenda . so i 'm gon na go first . mwa - ha - ha ! it should n't take too long . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . we 've gone once through the set . um , so the only thing i have to do professor f: no there 's only ten . grad d: yeah , that 's right . so i i just have to go through them professor f: well , ok . grad d: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . so we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . i 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . we have about two hours worth . i extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . so i extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the `` key `` file and the transcript files are parsable . some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and i have to go back and fix those . so what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . um , liz professor f: so you think two you think two hours is the is the total that we have ? grad d: yep , yeah . professor f: and you think we th uh , i i did n't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ? grad d: yes , absolutely . professor f: ok . grad d: so it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . i have this web - based speaker form , and i sent mail to everyone who had n't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in . professor f: so the relevance of the speaker form here , s grad d: it 's for labeling the extracted audio files . professor f: oh , ok . grad d: by speaker id and microphone type . professor f: was n't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something . grad d: no , i spoke with jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that we edit out any of the errors anyway . right ? so the there are no errors in the digits , professor f: yeah . grad d: you 'll always read the string correctly . so i ca n't imagine why anyone would care . so the other topic with digits is uh , liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in english . and it just did n't work at all because no one grouped them together . so it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . so in conversations with liz and uh jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . the problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . when i look at this , that first line is `` sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . `` um , and so the question is does anyone care ? um , i 've already spoken with liz and she feels that , correct me if i 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: as opposed to connected digits . um , i think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wan na do training and adaptation and all that other stuff . professor f: yeah um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you would n't like that ? is that correct ? phd g: well , we actually figured out a way to grad d: yeah , the the phd g: the the groupings are randomly generated . professor f: no but , i was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was n't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would n't , uh , go and do numbers so much . you know if it if it 's phd a: uh phd g: i think they may still do it , um , professor f: maybe some , but i probably not so much . phd b: what about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? phd g: and professor f: right ? so if you if if you have uh grad d: six dash one , you mean ? professor f: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one . phd g: i well ok i it might help , i would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping . professor f: that 's what i was asking , yeah . phd g: um , so if that 's your question , professor f: yeah . phd g: but i mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits postdoc e: yeah . phd g: if that 's what people want . i i 'm postdoc e: yeah . phd g: do n't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data , grad d: right . phd g: and that 's always a good thing . grad d: yep . phd g: it 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . they 're better trained than the numbers . grad d: so we could just , uh , put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` . professor f: right . phd g: right . right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: and if people make a mistake we grad d: how about `` o `` versus `` zero `` ? professor f: i mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's it 's it 's - i 'm not worrying about it i mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from ogi . i 'm sorry , digits numbers training that we have from ogi , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . and um . phd g: but it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean for it 's professor f: no , no , i guess what i 'm saying is that grad d: just let them read it how they read it . professor f: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have . phd g: right . well that 's fine with me as long as it 's just that i did n't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits . professor f: yeah . we can go back to the other thing later . phd g: so professor f: i mean we s we we 've we can do this for awhile phd g: ok . professor f: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . do yo i mean , do you want do you want this do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? phd g: ok . professor f: how much of this do you need ? with uh the phd g: it 's actually unclear right now . i just thought well we 're if we 're collec collecting digits , and adam had said we were running out of the ti forms , i thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits professor f: ok . phd g: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gon na do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . so we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general . professor f: ok , well if you pre phd g: but if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one oo `` . and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` o `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` o `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context , professor f: yeah . phd g: and that 's sort of interesting . so i do n't have a specific need cuz if i did i 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but if we can try it grad d: ok so so i can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: right , and you can give an example like , you know , `` six sixty - one would be read as six one `` . grad d: right . postdoc e: mm - hmm . and i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words . phd g: and i think people will get it . postdoc e: i 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single . phd g: right , right . postdoc e: the spaces already bias it toward being separated . phd g: it 's just easier to read . postdoc e: and i know i 'm gon na find this easier than words . phd g: right . grad d: oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier . phd g: ok i also had a hard hard time with the words , professor f: yeah . phd g: but then we went back and forth on that . ok , so let 's give that a try grad d: ok . and is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ? professor f: ok . phd g: and grad d: or is that alright ? phd g: i mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading { comment } them . postdoc e: i think that i it 's fine . grad d: ok . postdoc e: i it it to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation phd g: ok . postdoc e: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all . phd g: great . ok . grad d: and i think there are about ten different gouping patterns professor f: let 's try it . phd g: well let 's give it a try . grad d: is n't that right , liz ? that we did . phd g: righ - right , and you just they 're randomly generated and randomly assigned to digits . postdoc e: i did mm - hmm . professor f: so we have postdoc e: go ahead . professor f: sorry , i i was just gon na say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now . and you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then , grad d: yep . professor f: something like twenty twenty to one . which i guess makes makes sense . so if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this . grad d: right . professor f: um , yeah like you say , i think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set 's ok . it 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll we might use use this up , uh , in some sense , postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad d: right . professor f: but but uh postdoc e: yeah , i also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank . grad d: right . postdoc e: hmm ? cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . and i think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally american speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database . grad d: right . i think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing ti - digits probably is n't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different . professor f: yeah . grad d: it 's gon na be very hard to be comparable . postdoc e: except that if you have the stimuli comparable , then it says something about the the contribution of setting professor f: no it 's it 's not the same . postdoc e: and professor f: a little bit , but the other differences are so major . grad d: yeah i mean read versus not . postdoc e: ok . professor f: they 're such major sources of variance that it 's it 's it 's uh postdoc e: what 's an example of a of m some of the other differences ? any other a difference ? professor f: well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one , postdoc e: ok . professor f: you know , it 's just there 's so many things . grad d: well , and not just that , postdoc e: ok . professor f: it 's it and and enunciation . grad d: i mean the uh the corpus itself . i mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and i 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . i mean if i remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that . professor f: ti - digits was ? grad d: i thought so . professor f: i thought i thought it was read . grad d: was it read ? professor f: yeah , i think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be ogi . grad d: oh , i may well be . professor f: yeah , no ti - digits was read in th in read in the studio i believe . grad d: i have n't ever listened to ti - digits . so i do n't really know how it compares . professor f: yeah . yeah . grad d: but but regardless it 's gon na it 's hard to compare cross - corpus . professor f: but it but it - it 's different people is the is the core thing . grad d: so . postdoc e: ok , fine . professor f: and they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's it 's it 's really pretty different . but i think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you could n't do exact comparisons , it would n't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . uh , you know it 's not phd b: hey liz , what what do the groupings represent ? postdoc e: ok . phd b: you said there 's like ten different groupings ? phd g: right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings . phd b: mm - hmm . are the patterns like are they based on anything or phd g: um , i i just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time . phd b: oh . phd g: and they can have , i mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . in the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . so , there 's between , um well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and i purposely did n't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern . phd b: mmm . phd g: so grad d: and which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly . phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: so unlike the previous one , which i d simply replicated ti - digits , this is generated randomly . phd g: right . phd a: oh ok . phd b: mmm , oh , ok . phd g: but i think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or ti - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: and , i mean so it 's it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . especially for speakers that do n't talk a lot . grad d: yeah . phd g: so um , for adaptation . no , i 'm serious , phd a: yeah . grad d: yeah all we have for some people is digits . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know grad d: oh , you 're not . phd g: not for adaptation , nope . v w we 're not we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and i 'd as soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and i thought `` well , we 're gon na do better on that , grad d: oh i see . phd g: that 's not fair to use `` . grad d: oh yeah that 's true , absolutely . phd a: ok . phd g: but , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . so those speakers who are very quiet , { comment } shy grad d: that would be interesting to see whether that helps . phd g: r right phd b: like adam ? grad d: do you think that would help adapting on yeah . yeah , i have a real problem with that . professor f: yeah . phd g: well , it sh i mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the in the same meeting , grad d: right . same same acoustics , professor f: yeah . phd g: and so you do n't get grad d: same microphone , phd a: yeah . grad d: same channel . phd g: right , and so i still like the idea of having some kind of digit data . grad d: ok . good . professor f: yeah i mean , for the for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , i see it as as as the place that we start . but , th i mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but but uh the truth is i 'm hoping that we we through the the stuff that that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . so . postdoc e: great . phd g: the only thing that we do n't have , i know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we do n't have any overlapping digits . grad d: yeah , we talked about that a couple times . phd g: an - yea i know it 's weird , but um phd a: overlapping digits ! grad d: the the problem i see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load . phd g: alright everybody 's laughing . ok . grad c: dueling digits . grad d: no it 's it 's not stupid , it 's just i mean , try to do it . phd g: i 'm just talkin for the stuff that like dan ellis is gon na try , grad d: i mean , here , let 's try it . phd g: you know , cross - talk cancellation . grad d: you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: let 's try it . phd g: ok . phd a: oh ! phd g: wait oh it these are all the same forms . professor f: sixty - one . phd g: ok { comment } so but grad d: so so you read the last line , i 'll read the first line . professor f: no , i 'll p phd g: so you plu you plug your ears . grad d: oh i guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you do n't get the the same effects . phd a: yeah . phd g: well , what i mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people grad d: yeah . phd g: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like dan ellis and and company want to do . grad d: oh i see . phd g: digits are nice and well behaved , i mean grad d: i guess we could try . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . grad d: we could try doing some . phd g: it it would go faster . phd b: parallel . phd g: it would take one around { comment } amount of ti phd b: it 's the p - make of digit reading . grad d: well well ok . well let 's try it . phd g: that 's right . i i mea i 'm i was sort of serious , but i really , i mean , i 'm i do n't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea , professor f: see , y grad d: you do the last line , i 'll do the first line . phd g: so . professor f: ok . grad d: o . { comment } that 's not bad . professor f: no , i can do it . phd b: i could n't understand a single thing you guys were saying . phd g: a and that prosody was great , by the way . postdoc e: i think it was numbers , but i 'm not sure . phd g: it it sort of sounded like a duet , or something . phd a: yeah . phd b: performance art . professor f: alright , let 's try three at once you you pick one in the middle . phd a: the aurora theater . phd g: ok . professor f: go . phd g: i 'm sorry . i 'm mean i think it 's doable , grad d: the poor transcribers phd g: i 'm just grad d: they 're gon na hate us . phd g: so , we we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something . phd a: so pairwise . professor f: oh like a round , yeah , like in a a phd g: like a , phd a: yeah , just pairwise , professor f: yeah . phd g: what do you call it ? phd a: or yeah . grad c: round . grad d: a round . professor f: row , row , row your boat . phd g: li - a r like grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah , like that . professor f: ok . phd b: it 's gon na require some coordination . phd g: then it would go like h twice as fast , or a third as fast . postdoc e: you have to have a similar pace . phd g: anyway , it 's just a thought . professor f: yeah . phd g: i 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wan na work on it we should talk to them . professor f: i do n't think we 're gon na collect vast amounts of data that way , phd g: so . grad d: mmm . professor f: but i think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like dan to play around with , phd g: ok . grad d: i think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session , professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad d: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . so . phd g: can try it out . grad d: see see what dan thinks . phd g: if we have nothing if we have no agenda we could do it some week . grad d: yeah , right . professor f: yeah , yeah . spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities . phd g: ok . grad d: i thought this was gon na be fast . postdoc e: c c can i can i have an another another question w about this ? grad d: oh well . postdoc e: so , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . like `` wonderful `` has `` one `` in it and and victor borge had a had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . well , i wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of `` one `` in `` wonderful `` versus `` one `` as a digit being read . professor f: that 's `` two `` bad . yeah . phd g: i 'm all `` four `` it . postdoc e: there you go . grad d: not after i `` eight `` though . professor f: uh , they do n't all work as well , do they ? hmm . what does nine work in ? grad c: nein ! grad d: uh . professor f: uh , grad c: you scream it . grad d: nein ! you have to be german , professor f: oh . in german , phd a: that 's german , yeah . phd b: it 's great for the germans . professor f: yeah . grad d: yeah . phd g: oh , oh ! postdoc e: nein . professor f: that 's right ! phd a: yeah . grad d: oh ! grad c: it only sounds w good when you scream it , though . so . professor f: i think everybody 's a little punchy here today . postdoc e: well , i mean , i just wanted to offer that as a possible task professor f: yes . postdoc e: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and i would n't take the inflated version . so he talks about the woman being `` two - derful `` , and and a but , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read . professor f: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i do n't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers . grad d: i think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh timit . professor f: well i do n't know . well i think the question is what the research is , so i mean , i presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here . grad d: hmm . professor f: yeah ok . phd g: right , yeah . professor f: so if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the the the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits a a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but i think someone would have to express interest in that . postdoc e: i see . ok . professor f: i think , to i mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance . postdoc e: ok , thank you . grad d: ok , are we done with digits ? postdoc e: huh . grad d: um , we have asr results from liz , transcript status from jane , and disk space and storage formats from don . does do we have any prefer preference on which way we wan na we wan na go ? phd g: well i was actually gon na skip the asr results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: since i think that 's more important to moving forward , but i mean morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of asr results because we did n't do anything fancy , but i think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . and then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the on the close - talking mikes . phd a: so these grad d: um , why do n't you , if you have a hard copy , why do n't you email it to the list . phd g: so , that 's about the summary but this is morgan has this paper . phd a: yeah , yeah . grad d: oh it 's in the paper . professor f: yeah , so it 's the same thing ? phd g: i mean he he professor f: it 's the same thing i mailed to every everybody that w where it was , phd g: it it 's that paper . grad d: ok . phd g: yeah , yeah . grad d: ok then , it 's already been mailed . phd g: so , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that professor f: yeah . phd g: and it 's let 's see , th i guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad . grad d: horrible ? phd g: and it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech . phd a: so , your your asr results were run on the channels synchronized , phd g: yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time , phd a: ok . ok . ok . phd g: um but as we i mean i wanted to here more about the transcription . if we can get the channel asynchronous or the phd a: yeah . phd g: the closer t that would be very interesting for us phd b: so if phd g: because we professor f: yeah , that 's that 's why i only used the part from use phd a: yeah . professor f: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels phd a: yeah . phd g: right . that 's phd a: yeah sure . yeah . professor f: or mixed channel phd a: yeah . professor f: rather mixed signal . phd b: so if there was a segment of speech this long phd g: cuz phd a: yeah . phd b: and oh and someone said `` oh , `` the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ? grad d: and someone said `` oh `` in the front in the middle . phd a: there were several speakers in it , yeah . phd g: that 's right . in fact i i pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wan na u use them in your talk of phd b: that 's why there 's so many insertion errors ? grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: chuck on the lapel , so chuck wore the lapel three out of four times . grad c: mmm . grad d: i noticed that chuck was wearing the lapel a lot . phd b: early on , yeah . phd g: um , yeah , and i wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was ok . i mean i still and i do n't know why . i 'm but um , grad d: probably how you wear it wore it i would guess . phd g: for you it was or who was next to me or something like that . grad c: yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it . phd a: yeah . phd g: right , but when chuck wore the lapel and morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion insertions are n't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate . grad d: uh - huh . phd a: yeah . phd g: and that 's that 's where the problems come in . so i this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to to show it . grad d: right . phd g: and also i just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh andreas and i called up dan ellis who 's still stuck in switzerland , and we were gon na ask him if if there 're you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . not that we were gon na do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done . grad d: and he said , `` lots lots lots lots . `` phd g: and he we 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap . phd a: yep . phd g: and he 's gon na look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do phd b: so phd g: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature . phd b: so so the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking { comment } based on the other peopl phd g: right . or who 's at any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker . phd a: so yeah phd b: i thought we were just gon na move the boundaries in . phd a: yeah , should it phd g: so . grad d: well that 's with the hand stuff . phd g: so there 's like grad d: but how would you do that automatically ? phd g: well ther there 's phd a: uh , i 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation phd b: right . phd a: and it seems to work pretty well to to get rid of those those overlaps , grad d: i mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do . professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah . phd a: yeah . grad d: so . phd g: yeah . exactly , so it 's it 's a phd b: so why do you want to do echo cancellation ? phd g: um , it would be techniques used from adaptive adaptive echo cancellation which i do n't know enough about to talk about . phd b: uh - huh . professor f: it just it just to r to remove cross - talk . phd g: um . grad c: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: but , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy phd a: yeah . phd g: i i do n't know what exactly would go into it . phd a: yeah , sure . phd b: so it would be phd g: so the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak phd b: ok . so do sort of what he 's already what he 's trying to do . phd g: right . except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that . phd a: yeah , in another way , phd b: ok , i s i see . phd a: yeah . yeah . phd b: yeah . i see . professor f: yeah , dave dave uh is , um , also gon na be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff , phd g: so . professor f: so we 'll be phd g: and i guess espen ? this is uh is he here too ? professor f: yeah . phd g: may also be working so it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we ca n't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: um , until we can do that kind of processing . and so , once we have some some of yours , phd a: ok . yeah i 'm working on it . phd g: and @ @ we 'll move on . phd b: i think this also ties into one of the things that jane is gon na talk about too . grad d: um , phd g: ok . grad d: i also wanted to say i have done all this chopping up of digits , postdoc e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: so i have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . so let 's do that off - line , phd g: oh right . grad d: we do n't need to do it during the meeting . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: right . definitely grad d: and and i have scripts that will extract it out from `` key `` files phd g: uh , and don should grad d: and and do all the naming automatically , phd g: ok . grad c: alright . grad d: so you do n't have to do it by hand . phd g: great . grad c: you 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ? phd g: so that that 's it for the grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: speakers and ok . grad c: not names , but i ds . grad d: yep . yeah , names names in the names to i ds , grad c: ok . grad d: so you phd g: great . grad d: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match . phd g: right . grad c: cool . phd g: so at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth , grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . phd g: and we 're gon na basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your `` m o in one meeting and `` m o - two `` in another meeting and it 's we just need to standardize the grad c: yeah . that was my fault . phd g: um , no it 's it 's professor f: no , i did n't notice that actually . phd g: um , that 's why those comments are s are in there . grad c: yeah . then disregard it then . grad d: yep . so th i now have a script that you can just say basically look up morgan , phd g: so professor f: yeah . phd g: right . ok . grad d: and it will give you his id . phd g: great , great . grad c: ok . grad d: so . um , phd g: terrific . grad d: alright . do we don , you had disk space and storage formats . is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with chuck at some other time ? grad c: um , i had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and i do n't know exactly who to ask . i thought that maybe you would be the the person to talk to . so , is it a lossless compression { comment } when you compress , grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: so grad d: entropy coding . grad c: it just uses entropy coding ? grad d: so . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess my question would be is i just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . um , yeah , which is grad d: and i assume half of it is scratch and half of it is ? grad c: i 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it . grad d: probably , yeah . grad c: but um , professor f: that 's typical , huh . grad c: yeah , i do n't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so grad d: that does n't matter . grad c: but grad d: you can access it from anywhere in icsi . n grad c: ok . alright . how do you do that ? professor f: in fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , { comment } or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen grad d: n grad c: eighteen . phd g: eigh - eighteen . it was a spare that dave had around grad d: slash n slash machine name , slash x a in all likelihood . professor f: oh ok . grad c: oh i see . ok . alright , i did know that . grad d: um , so the the only question is how much of it the distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not . grad c: mm - hmm . right . grad d: so what you wan na do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate . grad c: ok . grad d: so , the stuff that is n't backed up is not a big deal because disks do n't crash very frequently , grad c: right . grad d: as long as you can regenerate it . grad c: right . i mean all of this stuff can be regenerated , phd g: yeah it 's grad c: it 's just a question grad d: then put it all on scratch phd g: well the grad d: because we 're icsi is is bottlenecked by backup . postdoc e: mm - hmm , very good point . phd g: yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: so we wan na put phd g: well i 'd leave all the all the transcript stuff should n't should be backed up , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but all the waveform { comment } sound files should not be backed up , grad c: yeah , i guess right . phd g: the ones that you write out . grad c: ok . so , i mean , i guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? um grad d: it just depends on your tools . i mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools ca n't take shortened format , i would leave them expanded , grad c: right . grad d: so you do n't have to unshorten them every single time you wan na do anything . grad c: ok . phd g: we can downsample them , grad c: do you think that 'd be ok ? phd g: so . grad c: to downsample them ? phd g: yeah . yeah , we get the same performance . grad c: ok . phd g: i mean the r the front - end on the sri recognizer just downsamples them on the fly , grad c: yeah , i guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques . phd g: so so that 's professor f: i i i 'm sorry phd g: yeah , if professor f: yeah , l i mean over all our data , we we want to not downsample . phd g: fe you 'd you wan na not . ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: so we 're what we 're doing is we 're writing out i mean , this is just a question . we 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from thilo , or or jane 's transcribers , you know , we we chop it there . professor f: yeah . mm - hmm . phd g: and the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer , professor f: mm - hmm . phd g: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth . professor f: yeah . phd g: and those are the ones that we 're storing . grad d: yeah , as i said , since that 's it 's regeneratable , what i would do is take downsample it , phd g: so yeah . grad d: and compress it however you 're e the sri recognizer wants to take it in . phd g: yeah . professor f: ye phd g: so we ca n't shorten them , grad c: right . phd g: but we can downsample them . professor f: yeah , i mean yeah , i 'm sorry . phd g: so . professor f: as yeah , as long as there is a a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , { comment } then , grad c: r yeah . phd g: oh yeah th grad c: yeah those are gon na be kept . phd g: yeah . yeah . that that 's why we need more disk space professor f: uuu phd g: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um professor f: yeah . grad d: right . professor f: then it 's fine . but for for fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on phd g: oh yeah . grad c: right . grad d: yep . phd g: no . we always have the original long ones . professor f: we would like to phd b: so the sri front - end wo n't take a uh an an a large audio file name and then a a list of segments to chop out { comment } from that large audio file ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they actually have to be chopped out already ? phd g: um , it 's better if they 're chopped out , phd b: uh - huh . phd g: and and it it will be yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . you c you can actually move them around . grad d: and that 's the whole point about the naming conventions phd g: uh , you can get rid of grad d: is that you could run all the english speaking , phd g: yeah , it it 's a lot faster . grad d: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers , phd g: right . you can grab everything with the word `` the `` in it , grad d: and all the men , and all the women . yeah . phd g: and it 's that 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and so in principle , yeah , you could do that , phd b: i do n't i do n't think that 's really right . phd g: but it 's but it 's um grad d: `` that 's just not right , man . `` the the point phd g: these are long these are long grad d: so so s for example , what if you wanted to run run all the native speakers . phd g: you know . this is an hour of speech . grad d: right , so if if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . the way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . and so , you know , you just say phd g: we - yeah that 's so that 's part of it grad d: y so you just say you know `` asterisk e asterisk dot wave `` , and you get what you want . phd g: is right . and the other part is just that once they 're written out it it is a lot faster to to process them . grad d: rather than doing seeks through the file . phd g: so . otherwise , you 're just accessing grad d: this is all just temporary access , so i do n't i think it 's all just it 's fine . you know . fine to do it however is convenient . phd g: right . professor f: i mean it just depends how big the file is . if the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks phd g: right . the other thing is that , believe it or not i mean , we have some professor f: but . grad d: yeah and they do n't . two gig ? phd g: so we 're also looking at these in waves like for the alignments and so forth . you ca n't load an hour of speech into x waves . professor f: yeah . phd g: you need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the transcriber program um grad d: yes you can . phd b: yeah , you you can give waves a start and an end time . and middle . phd g: yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into x waves , you 'll be waiting there for phd b: no , i i 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file , phd g: oh phd b: i 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . and it 'll just go and pull out that section . grad d: i th w the transcribers did n't have any problem with that did they jane ? postdoc e: what 's th u w in what respect ? phd g: loading the long phd a: no , with the transcriber tool , it 's no problem . grad d: they loaded they loaded the long long files into x waves . phd g: it takes a very long ti phd a: yeah just to load a transcription postdoc e: in the in mm - hmm . phd a: phd g: right . phd a: takes a long time , phd g: it takes a l very long time . phd a: but not for the wavefile . the wavefile is there immediately . postdoc e: mm - hmm . yeah . grad d: are you talking about transcriber or x waves ? phd g: huh . phd a: yeah . oh , i 'm tr talking about transcriber . phd g: actually , you 're talking about transcriber , right ? phd a: yeah . grad d: because because i we used x waves to do the digits . postdoc e: it was also true of the digits task which was x waves . grad d: and they were loading the full mixed files then , postdoc e: yeah . very quickly . grad d: and it did n't seem to be any problem . postdoc e: i agree . phd g: huh . well we we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a it - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file , grad d: hmm . seemed really fast . phd g: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um , grad d: well regardless , it 's professor f: yeah . phd g: i mean it 's i i think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two you know , the begin and end times . um , but i think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones . grad d: and , it 's no problem , right ? phd g: yeah , it 's grad d: because it 's not backed up . phd g: yeah . grad d: so we just phd g: it 's it 's just grad d: if we do n't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . you know , it 's not a big deal . postdoc e: you 're right about the backup being a bottleneck . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's good to think towards scratch . phd g: yeah , so these would n't be backed up , the postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yep . phd g: right . grad d: so remind me afterward phd g: and grad d: and i 'll and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff . grad c: ok . alright . i mean , i could just u do a du on it right ? and just see which how much is on each so . grad d: yep . each partition . and you wan na use , either xa or scratch . grad c: ok . grad d: well x question mark , anything starting with x is scratch . grad c: ok . postdoc e: with two two digits . grad d: two digits , right , xa , xb , xc . ok ? professor f: so , @ @ . grad d: jane ? postdoc e: ok . so i got a little print - out here . so three on this side , three on this side . and i stapled them . ok . alright so , first of all , um , there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and and i can tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ { comment } natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . and , um , so , i did a bunch of checks , and the first thing i did was obviously a spell - check . and at that point i discovered certain things like , um , `` accommodate `` with one `` m `` , that kind of thing . and then , in addition to that , i did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things phd b: i 'm i 'm sorry to interrupt postdoc e: yeah ? phd b: you could could i just back up a little bit postdoc e: sure , please , phd b: and postdoc e: yeah , please , please . phd b: so you 're doing these so the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah . phd b: and they do their pass over it . postdoc e: yes . phd b: and then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you , postdoc e: that 's right . phd b: and you begin these sanit these quality checks . postdoc e: exactly . i do these checks . phd b: ok . postdoc e: uh - huh . phd b: ok . postdoc e: exactly . yeah . thank you . and so , uh , i do a an exhaustive listing of the forms actually , i will go through this in in order , so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that . grad d: so on the fifth page , seven down postdoc e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . exactly ! exactly ! alright so , a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point i pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . and th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . and if not , then that gets checked . then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called `` spoken - forms `` . so there mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . but there 's w and that that 's done with the assumption that pronunciation variants can be handled . so for things like `` and `` , the fact that someone does n't say the `` d `` , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . however , things like `` cuz `` where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons f for those reasons i i kept that separate , and used the convention of using `` cuz `` for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . so `` wan na `` is another one , `` going `` uh , `` gon na `` is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model , to handle . and chuck , you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , did n't you ? did i phd b: i do n't remember . postdoc e: ok . so so it might not have been it might not have been you , phd b: hmm . postdoc e: but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . ok , so after that , let 's see , phd b: so that was part of the spell - check , { comment } or was that that was after the spell - check ? postdoc e: um . well so when i get the exhau so the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary . phd b: uh - huh . postdoc e: so it gets `` cuz `` and `` wan na `` and that grad d: and then you gloss them ? postdoc e: yeah , mm - hmm . run it through i have a sed you know , so i do sed script saying whenever you see `` gon na `` you know , `` convert it to gon na `` , you know , `` gloss equals quote going - to quote `` , you know . and with all these things being in curly brackets grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so they 're always distinctive . ok , i also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , or anything which i 've classified as an acronym , and a pronounced acronym . and the way i tag ac pronounced acronyms is that i have underscores between the components . so if it 's `` acl `` then it 's `` a `` underscore `` c `` underscore `` l `` . grad d: and so so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? postdoc e: and the th yes . uh - huh , yeah . grad d: whew ! postdoc e: ok , so now . uh and a grad d: we are acronym - loaded . phd g: um , can i ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ? postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , for a word like `` because `` is it that it 's always predictably `` because `` ? i mean , is `` cuz `` always meaning `` because `` ? postdoc e: yes , but not the reverse . so sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting , and if if they actually said `` because `` , then it 's written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does n't even figure into the equation . professor f: but but in our meetings people do n't say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` phd g: beca - because right . { comment } right . grad d: except right there . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah . phd g: um , so , i guess so , from the point of view of postdoc e: that 's a good point . phd g: the the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` , grad d: well , phd g: and so if we know that `` cuz `` postdoc e: that 's fine . grad d: but they have the gloss . postdoc e: well don has a script . grad c: yeah . phd g: but , we do n't grad d: you have the gloss form so you always replace it . postdoc e: exactly . grad d: if that 's how what you wan na do . postdoc e: uh - huh . and don knows this , grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that grad c: i replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it 's glossed . phd g: s right . but , if it 's ok . grad c: and phd g: but then there are other glosses that we do n't replace , right ? because postdoc e: yes . and that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses , phd g: ok . so , then it 's fine . postdoc e: on the different on the different types of comments , which we 'll which we 'll see in just a second . grad c: right . phd g: ok . postdoc e: so the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . there 're comments of four types . so this is a good time to introduce that . the four types . w and maybe we 'll expand that grad d: um postdoc e: but the but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . one of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned . grad d: can ca postdoc e: another type is , um grad d: so a are we done with acronyms ? cuz i had a question on what what this meant . postdoc e: i 'm still doing the overview . i have n't actually gotten here yet . grad d: oh i 'm sorry . postdoc e: ok so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . uh , then you have if it 's uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that are n't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of `` voc `` . phd a: whew ! postdoc e: and the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization . phd b: so then it just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there . postdoc e: oh yeah , so i e this would grad d: a comment , basically . postdoc e: let 's just take one example . phd b: oh , oh , oh . postdoc e: and then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . they always end . so it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . and then the third type right now , uh , is m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . so it could be something like , you know , `` referring to so - and - so `` , `` talking about such - and - such `` , uh , you know , `` looking at so - and - so `` . phd b: so on the m postdoc e: yeah . phd b: on the middle t so , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . but in the middle two th - it 's not applying to anything , right ? postdoc e: yeah , and this gets substituted here . grad d: they 're impulsive . phd b: ok . postdoc e: huh - uh . no , they 're events . phd b: ok . grad d: well the `` qual `` can be the `` qual `` is applying to the left . postdoc e: they 're actually they have the status of events . phd b: right , i just meant the middle two ones , yeah . grad d: yep . postdoc e: well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to `` laugh `` , there 's another one which is `` while laughing `` , grad d: `` while laughing `` . postdoc e: and that is , uh , i i an argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we have n't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have `` while laughing `` , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . have n't been awfully precise about that , but i have here , now we 're about to get to the to this now , i have frequencies . so you 'll see how often these different things occur . but , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm - hmm `` and `` mm - hmm `` and `` ha `` and `` uh - uh `` and all these different types . and , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been chuck , { comment } about , um about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for `` mm - hmmm `` with three m 's , and it 's transcribed with two m 's , that it might uh , that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because um , i p i personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . so , right now i 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms . grad d: oh good . postdoc e: i i should say grad d: so it 's a small list . postdoc e: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . so , i 'm gon na i 'm gon na i 'm gon na check grad d: that that 's known as `` found data `` . postdoc e: yeah , yeah . acsu - actually yeah . i got it was stored in a place i did n't expect , grad c: it 's like the z zapruder film . postdoc e: so and and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened . professor f: i wan na work with lost data . grad d: yeah . it 's much easier . postdoc e: and this is this 'll be great . so i 'll i 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably . grad d: hmm . postdoc e: and so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . but you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things . grad d: yeah . postdoc e: and i made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you would n't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . and , um grad c: jane , can i ask you a question ? what 's that very last one correspond to ? postdoc e: sure . grad c: i do n't even know how to pronounce that . postdoc e: well , yeah . now that that s only occurs once , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: and i 'm thinking of changing that . phd g: right . grad c: uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ? postdoc e: so - c i have n't listened to it so i do n't know . grad c: like their hair 's on fire ? postdoc e: i have n't heard it actually . i n i need to listen to that one . grad d: ah ! phd a: it 's the castle of ah ! phd g: actually we we gave this to our pronunciation person , grad c: uh , it looks like that . phd g: she 's like , `` i do n't know what that is either `` . so . postdoc e: did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? cuz i have n't heard it . phd g: no , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , were n't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just did n't listen so she did n't know . we just we 're waiting on that just to do the alignments . postdoc e: yeah . yeah i 'm curious to se hear what it is , but i did n't know wan na change it to something else until i knew . grad c: right . phd g: maybe it 's `` argh `` ? postdoc e: well , sss , { comment } you know phd g: grad c: but that 's not really like postdoc e: hhh . grad c: no one really says `` argh , `` you know , postdoc e: phd g: yeah . right , no one say grad c: it 's not professor f: well , you just did . phd b: except for now ! grad c: well , there 's another there 's another word error . grad d: postdoc e: yeah . that 's right . grad d: yes , that 's right . we 're gon na have a big problem when we talk about that . grad c: cha - ching . phd g: ah . phd b: we 're gon na never recognize this meeting . grad d: in monty python you say `` argh `` a lot . postdoc e: ok . grad c: oh yeah ? grad d: so . well , or if you 're a c programmer . grad c: mmm . grad d: you say arg - c and arg - v all the time . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . professor f: yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . grad c: that 's true . postdoc e: yeah . professor f: yeah phd g: but it has a different prosody . professor f: arg . grad d: it does . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: arg arg - max , arg - min , yeah . grad d: ah ! postdoc e: uh , phd g: so , jane , what 's the d grad d: maybe he died while dictating . postdoc e: so . phd g: i have one question about the the `` eh `` versus like the `` ah `` and the `` uh `` . postdoc e: that 's partly a nonnative - native thing , phd g: ok . postdoc e: but i have found `` eh `` in native speakers too . phd g: postdoc e: but it 's mostly non - native phd a: h phd b: that 's `` eh `` versus `` ah `` ? phd g: s ok . postdoc e: eh . grad d: eh ? phd g: `` eh , `` yeah right , cuz there were were some speakers that did definite `` eh 's `` postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but right now we phd b: they were the canadians , right ? professor f: canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah . postdoc e: that 's right . phd g: so , it it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real `` eh `` and the one that 's just like `` uh `` or transcribed `` aaa `` postdoc e: exactly . phd g: cuz in like in switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like `` uh `` . grad d: you mean just the single letter `` a `` { comment } as in the particle ? phd a: the transcription or grad d: article . phd g: no , no , i mean like the the `` uh `` , postdoc e: `` uh `` . grad d: oh . phd g: or the `` uh `` , `` eh `` , `` ah `` were all the same . and then , we have this additional non - native version of uh , like `` eeh `` . grad c: all the `` eh `` 's i 've seen have been like that . they 've been like `` eh `` like that have bee has been transcribed to `` eh `` . and sometimes it 's stronger , postdoc e: mm - hmm , that 's right . grad c: like `` eeh `` { comment } which is like closer to `` eh `` . postdoc e: mmm . phd g: right . grad c: but . grad d: i 'm just these poor transcribers , they 're gon na hate this meeting . postdoc e: yeah . grad c: i know . we should go off - line . postdoc e: well , we 're not doing we 're not doing length . professor f: quick thilo , do a do a filled pause for us . postdoc e: yeah , that 's right . phd a: ooo { comment } no . phd g: but you 're a native german speaker so it 's not a not a issue for phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's only grad d: them canadians . phd g: onl yeah . no , only if you do n't have lax vowels , i guess . grad d: oh . phd g: right . postdoc e: this makes sense . phd g: so it 's like japanese and spanish postdoc e: yeah i i think you 've uh - huh , yeah . grad d: oh i see . professor f: uh - huh . phd g: and grad d: i did n't get that , postdoc e: that makes sense . grad d: ok . postdoc e: yeah , and so , you know , i mean , th th i have there are some , um , americans who who are using this `` eh `` too , and i have n't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being `` uh 's `` but , uh , i my spot - checking has made me think that we do have `` eh `` in also , um , american e e data represented here . but any case , that 's the this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list , phd g: yeah this is great . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah , it 's good , postdoc e: and this is grad d: yeah . phd g: this is really really helpful . postdoc e: functionally pretty , you know , also it was fascinating , i was listening to some of these , uh , i guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to to do a search for the `` mm - hmm 's `` . and you get `` mm - hmm `` and diff everybody 's doing it . grad d: and just listen to them ? yeah . postdoc e: just i wanted to say i w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a `` mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: performance art , postdoc e: mm - hmm . `` grad d: just extract them all . phd g: right . postdoc e: it 's really it 's really fun to listen to . phd b: morgan can make a song out of it . postdoc e: all these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's it 's the same item . it 's very interesting . ok . uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber was n't sure of , grad d: oh i see . postdoc e: and i have n't been able to listen to to to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them grad d: o how about question mark ? postdoc e: cuz it 's the only place where where they 're used . phd a: the question marks , yeah . what are those ? postdoc e: question mark is punctuation . so it they said that @ @ grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: oh . postdoc e: um , `` dc ? `` phd a: ah . grad d: so they so it 's `` plp ? `` postdoc e: exactly . exactly . yeah , so the only well , and i do have a stress marker here . sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um professor f: i 'm sorry , i i got lost here . what - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ? postdoc e: the parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ann , but was n't entirely sure . so i 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no , professor f: ah . postdoc e: and then get rid of the parentheses . phd g: right . postdoc e: but the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain . grad d: yeah , p - make is phd g: yeah i mean cuz they they have no idea , grad d: that 's a good one . that 's correct . phd g: right . if you hear ctpd , i mean , they do pretty well professor f: yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: but it 's professor f: i i do n't recognize a lot of these . phd g: you know how are how are they gon na know ? grad c: yeah . grad d: i know ! i i was saying that i think a lot of them are the networks meeting . professor f: i postdoc e: i think that 's true . professor f: maybe . postdoc e: yeah , absolutely . grad d: i see a few . postdoc e: nsa , phd g: yeah . postdoc e: a lot of these are are coming from them . i listened to some of that . grad c: yeah , we do n't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting . grad d: although i see i see plenty of uh postdoc e: yeah . yeah . i agree . grad c: it 's not so bad . phd g: right . postdoc e: and robustness has a fair amount , phd a: yeah . grad c: mmm . postdoc e: but the nsa group is just very very many . phd g: the recognizer , it is funny . kept getting pta for pda . grad d: yeah , that 's pretty close . professor f: yeah . phd g: this is close , right , grad c: that 's not bad . phd g: and the pta was in these , uh , topics about children , postdoc e: yeah . phd g: so , anyway . postdoc e: that 's interesting . phd g: is the p - pta working ? postdoc e: right and sometimes , i mean , you see a couple of these that are actually `` ok 's `` so it 's it 's may be that they got to the point where i mean it was low enough understandable understandability that they were n't entirely sure the person said `` ok . `` you know , so it is n't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym , grad c: there 's a lot of `` ok 's `` . postdoc e: but just n needs to be double checked . now we get to the comments . this professor f: the number to the left is the number of incidences ? grad d: count . yep . postdoc e: number of times out of the entire database , professor f: uh - huh . postdoc e: w except for that last thirty minutes i have n't checked yet . professor f: so cts is really big here , grad d: yeah , i wonder what it is . professor f: yeah . yeah . phd a: so what is the difference between `` papers rustling `` and `` rustling papers `` ? professor f: ip , i know what ip is . postdoc e: i 'd have to listen . i i i agree . i w i 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: but , i i 'm a little hesitant to to collapse across categories unless i actually listen to them . phd a: seems so . professor f: ok . grad d: oh i 'm sure we 've said xml more than five times . postdoc e: well , then , at least now . phd a: now it 's at least six times , yeah . professor f: s s six now , yeah . postdoc e: yeah . six . ok well professor f: wh - the self - referential aspect of these these p phd g: i 'm wai grad c: yeah . grad d: yes , it 's very bad . phd g: well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ? grad d: yes . phd g: y no normally you do n't go around saying , `` now you 've said it six times . grad d: yeah { comment } that 's right . phd g: now you 've said `` postdoc e: but did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of `` ok `` ? phd a: seven hundred eighty - five instances . postdoc e: and that 's just without the without punc punctuation . grad c: yeah . grad d: yep . professor f: no , i did n't . yeah . grad d: and that 's an underestimate postdoc e: extra forty one if it 's questioned . phd b: where 's that ? grad d: cuz they 're yep . professor f: so th postdoc e: on the page two of acronyms . grad c: is this after like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of `` ok `` to this ? professor f: yeah . seven hundred eighty . postdoc e: yeah . of `` ok `` , yes . grad c: ok . postdoc e: mm - hmm . so that 's the single existing convention for `` ok `` . phd b: wait a minute , w s professor f: so now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight . postdoc e: yeah that 's grad c: although , what 's there 's one with a slash after it . that 's kind of disturbing . postdoc e: yeah . grad d: yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know . postdoc e: that 's that 's i looked for that one . phd g: yeah . grad c: anyway . postdoc e: i actually explicitly looked for that one , grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: and i think that , um , i i 'm not exactly sure about that . phd b: was that somewhere where they were gon na say `` new speaker `` or something ? postdoc e: no , i looked for that , but that does n't actually exist . and it may be , i do n't i ca n't explain that . grad c: that 's alright . i 'm just pointing that out . postdoc e: i i it 's the only grad c: there 's postdoc e: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and i think it 's it 's an epiphenomenon . phd g: well there 's not @ @ . grad d: so i 'll just i was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that `` to be `` or `` not to be `` . postdoc e: yeah . phd b: there 's no tilde in front of it , postdoc e: oh that 's cute . phd b: so . postdoc e: that 's funny . yeah . grad d: ok anyways , sorry . postdoc e: ok . grad d: `` try to stay on topic , adam . `` postdoc e: there is th one y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . so now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes . grad d: ok so , um , on some of these quals , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: are they really quals , or are they glosses ? so like there 's a `` qual tcl `` . postdoc e: `` tcl `` . where do you see that ? grad d: uh postdoc e: oh , oh . the reason is because w it was said `` tickle `` . professor f: what 's a qual ? grad d: oh i see , i see . grad c: hmm . grad d: so it 's not gloss . ok , i see . postdoc e: yep . grad c: sh - should n't it be `` qual tickle `` or something ? grad d: it was n't said `` tcl `` . of course . grad c: like it 's not postdoc e: on the in the actual script in the actual transcript , i s i so this this happens in the very first one . grad c: mm - hmm . postdoc e: i actually wrote it as `` tickle `` . grad c: ok . postdoc e: because we they did n't say `` tcl `` , they said `` tickle `` . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: and then , following that is `` qual tcl `` . phd g: right . grad c: oh i see . ok . professor f: i f i forget , what 's qual ? postdoc e: qual - qualifier . phd b: it 's just comment about what they said . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: comment . grad c: it 's not something you wan na replace with postdoc e: comment or contextual comment . phd b: so they did n't mean `` tickle `` as in elmo , grad c: but phd a: tickle ? professor f: yeah . phd b: they meant `` tickle `` as in grad d: yeah . phd g: huh . professor f: right . phd g: but at some point i mean , we probably shoul grad d: we 'll probably add it to the language model . phd g: but we should add it to the dictionar grad d: yeah . phd g: no , to the pronunciation model . grad d: what did i say ? phd a: to the language model model . phd g: language , uh grad d: well both . phd b: add what , liz ? grad d: we can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model . phd g: oh lan oh ok - we ok phd a: yeah . phd g: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of `` tickle `` . grad d: well `` tickle `` was pronounced `` tickle `` . right ? phd a: `` tickle `` is pronounced `` tickle `` ? phd b: what are you saying ? grad d: it 's pronounced the same it 's pronounced the same as the verb . phd g: i 'm sorry ! grad d: so i think it 's the language model that makes it different . phd g: oh , sorry . what i meant is that there should be a pronunciation `` tickle `` for tcl as a word . phd a: yeah . grad d: oh i see . phd g: and that word in the in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: right . right . professor f: right . phd g: yeah you never would put `` tickle `` in the language model in that form , postdoc e: grad d: right . phd g: yeah . right . there 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and phd b: so how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are . phd g: yes . yeah . yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . tcl 's one of them . grad d: and and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously . phd g: um , y yeah . grad d: right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously . grad c: it 's just disturbing . phd g: right . phd b: hmm . phd g: right . we have this there is this thing i was gon na talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the like spelling people 's names and so forth . if we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had deborah tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it , grad d: you can correct it . yeah . phd g: but but we need to make sure we have the mispel if it does n't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: things like that . grad d: these are so funny to read . postdoc e: well , of course now the the tannen corre the spelling c change . phd g: so . postdoc e: uh , that 's what gets i i picked those up in the frequency check . phd g: right . right . so if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's it 's not an issue , postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd g: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our the dictionary up to date . and then , yeah , in the case of `` tickle `` i guess we would just have a , you know , word `` tcl `` which phd b: mm - hmm . grad d: you add it to the dictionary . phd g: which normally would be an acronym , you know , `` tcl `` grad d: right . phd g: but just has another pronunciation . grad d: yep . postdoc e: `` icsi `` is is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say `` icsi . `` grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: so , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , i actually know phd g: oh yeah . postdoc e: they were said as letters . the others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz i have n't been able to go to all the ic icsi things , phd g: right , exactly . postdoc e: and { comment } and until they 've been listened to they stay as `` icsi `` . grad d: mm - hmm . phd g: right . professor f: don and i were just noticing , love this one over on page three , `` vocal vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . `` grad c: that 's great . grad d: it 's this , `` rrre - rrre - rrre `` . it was me . postdoc e: it was ! in fact , it was ! yeah ! grad d: a lot of these are me the the `` beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . `` postdoc e: he he s he said he said get phd a: to head . grad d: that was the i was imitating uh , beeping out postdoc e: yeah , that 's it . professor f: beep . postdoc e: perfect . yeah that 's it . professor f: yeah . phd g: oh there is something spelled out `` beeeeeep `` grad c: um postdoc e: that 's it . grad c: yeah . postdoc e: yeah , that 's that 's been changed . phd g: in the old thank you . because he was saying , `` how many e 's do i have to allow for ? `` grad c: you need a lot of grad d: what i meant was `` beep `` . grad c: you need a lot of qualification adam . grad d: i guess so . postdoc e: that 's been changed . so , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in . grad c: subtext . grad d: anyway . postdoc e: s chan brought it down . phd g: right , thanks , yeah . grad d: so they 're vocalization , phd g: right . postdoc e: and those of course get get picked up in the frequency check grad d: glosses . postdoc e: because you see `` beep `` phd g: right . postdoc e: and you know i mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing . phd g: right . right . postdoc e: i have the there 're various things like `` breathe `` versus `` breath `` versus `` inhale `` and , hhh , you know , i do n't know . i i think they do n't have any implications for anything else so it 's like i 'm tempted to leave them for now an and it 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . we can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them . phd g: yeah . professor f: `` sings finale - type song `` grad c: yeah , that was in the first meeting . professor f: that 's that 's good . phd g: yeah . grad d: um , postdoc e: yeah , but i do n't actually remember what it was . but that was eric did that . professor f: yeah . grad d: so on postdoc e: yeah . professor f: tah - dah ! i do n't know . postdoc e: i think maybe something like that . professor f: something like that maybe , yeah . postdoc e: well , that 'd qualify . grad d: on the glosses for numbers , postdoc e: yeah . grad d: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done . postdoc e: ok . interesting question . grad d: there 's a postdoc e: yes . ok , now first of all ooo - ooo ! very important . grad d: `` ooo - ooo . `` postdoc e: uh chuck chuck led to a refinement here which is to add `` nums `` if these are parts of the read numbers . now you already know i that i had , uh , in places where they had n't transcribed numbers , i put `` numbers `` in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . and , um , d chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . and that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five or three hundred and five times right now which is just well n n `` nums `` by itself grad d: `` nums `` , yeah . postdoc e: which means this is part of the numbers task . i may change it to `` digits `` . i mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ? grad d: yep . postdoc e: have to think about what 's the best for for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , `` numbers `` and `` nums `` are a part of this digits task thing . um , now th then i have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . um , i did n't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . and actually , th um , the reason i b did it this way was because i initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . so you say , `` seve - seventy eight point two `` , or whatever . and there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . you ca n't have the seven and grad d: so what 's to the left of these ? postdoc e: the left is i so example the very first one , grad d: mm - hmm . postdoc e: it would be , spelled out in words , `` point five `` . grad d: ok , that 's what i was asking . right . postdoc e: only it 's spelled out in words . grad d: point five , yeah . postdoc e: so i this is also spelled out in in words . `` point five . `` grad d: good . postdoc e: and then , in here , `` nums `` , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . it comes out as `` nums quote dot five `` . grad d: ok now , the other example is , in the glosses right there , postdoc e: thank you . grad d: `` gloss one one one dash one three zero `` . grad c: right . grad d: what what 's to the left of that ? postdoc e: well now in that case it 's people saying things like `` one one one dash so - and - so `` or they 're saying uh `` two i mean zero `` whatever . grad d: ok . postdoc e: and in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gon na be included in the read digits anyway , phd b: so there will be a `` nums `` tag on those lines ? postdoc e: so i m in the uh there is . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: yeah . i 've added that all now too . grad c: there 's a `` numbers `` tag grad d: good . grad c: i 'm sorry i 'm i did n't follow that last thing . phd g: wait . postdoc e: so , so gloss in the same line that would have `` gloss quote one one one dash one thirty `` , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , `` curly bracket nums curly bracket `` . grad c: right . postdoc e: so if you if you did a , uh , a `` grep minus v nums `` phd g: oh , so you could do `` grep minus v nums `` . postdoc e: and you get rid of anything that was read . phd g: so that 's the yeah . grad c: ok . phd g: so there would n't be something like i if somebody said something like , `` boy , i 'm really tired , ok . `` and then started reading that would be on a separate line ? postdoc e: yes . phd g: ok great . cuz i was doing the `` grep minus v `` quick and dirty and looked like that was working ok , postdoc e: mm - hmm . good . phd g: but postdoc e: yep . phd g: great . now why do we what 's the reason for having like the point five have the `` nums `` on it ? is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ? postdoc e: this is more because phd g: or postdoc e: yeah . oh these are all these , the `` nums point `` , this all where they 're saying `` point `` something or other . phd g: these are all like inside the spontaneous postdoc e: and the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . i mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know eh , `` so in the data column five has `` , you know , `` one point five compared to seventy nine point six `` , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . and this is just really a a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said . grad d: label it . phd g: oh ok . postdoc e: so this is where chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in , phd g: i see . postdoc e: where we 're gon na have a master file of the channelized data . um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis . and , um , the implication that that i have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . these will just be things that are generated , grad d: right postdoc e: and e by using scripts . phd g: ok . grad d: master copies of superset . postdoc e: when things change then the the script will cham change but the but there wo n't be stored copies of in different versions of things . grad d: good . phd g: so , i guess i 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of `` nums `` { comment } where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech . phd b: right . right . that would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something . phd g: um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we do n't see the `` point five `` , or or it 's not there , then we phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: a just an and actually for things like `` seven eighths `` , or people do fractions too i guess , you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that , postdoc e: except phd g: or as long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust . postdoc e: well phd g: cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` nums `` string in it . phd b: i suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace nums curly brace `` . postdoc e: well ex - exactly . phd b: i mean that would be the postdoc e: exactly . that was that was my motivation . and i these can be changed , like i said . phd g: yeah . postdoc e: you know , i mean , as i said i was considering changing it to `` digits `` . and , it just i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know . phd b: right . phd g: it would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . and we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . but you 're right , we could do it this way , it it should work . um , phd b: yeah , and it makes it i guess the thing about phd g: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference phd b: yeah . phd g: because one 's in the context of a you know , a transcribed word string , phd b: right . postdoc e: the other thing is you can get really so minute with these things phd g: and so postdoc e: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` . now i i could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ? grad d: hmm . postdoc e: i it 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are and we could always add it later . percent 's easy to detect . point however is is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . and you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying `` well the first point i wan na make is so - and - so `` and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals . phd b: so liz , what does the recognizer do , postdoc e: so . phd b: uh , professor f: hmm . phd b: what does the sri recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` . does it output the word phd g: `` seven point five `` . phd b: right , the word `` seven `` ? grad d: well , the numbers ? phd b: the number `` seven `` ? phd g: the word . phd b: the word `` seven `` , ok . professor f: yeah . phd g: yeah . professor f: so i 'd so `` i 'd like i 'd like to talk about point five `` . phd g: and and actually , you know the language professor f: yeah . phd g: it 's the same point , actually , the the p you know , the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to 's `` and so there 's no distinction there . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: it 's just just the word `` point `` has yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if even if it 's a actually even like the word `` read `` { comment } and `` read `` those are two different words . they 're spelled the same way , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: and they 're still gon na be transcribed as read . phd b: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd g: so , yeah , i i like the idea of having this in there , i just i was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech because i what if we have like `` read letters `` or , i do n't know , grad d: we might wan na just a separate tag that says it 's read . phd g: like `` read something `` like `` read `` grad c: mm - hmm . phd g: yeah , basically . but other than that i it sounds great . grad d: yeah . ok ? are we done ? postdoc e: well i wanted to say also regarding the channelized data , grad d: oh , i guess we 're not done . phd b: yeah . postdoc e: that , um , thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was chuc - chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you if you said , `` oh `` and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one grad d: well postdoc e: as for the longer utterances , grad d: we did that for one meeting , right , postdoc e: and grad d: so you have that data do n't you ? phd a: yeah , that 's the training data . postdoc e: and he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections . phd a: yeah . postdoc e: he gave me he did the very nice , he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . and at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . in addition the i 've i have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually . phd a: oh great . postdoc e: so right now , um , i know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and i 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started . phd a: oh great . ok . postdoc e: but if if you know , and i and he 's gon na give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose . phd a: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: because it 's true , i mean , if we could do the the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . and , um . so this is gon na be useful to expand this . phd a: so i i thought we we sh we sh perhaps we should try to to start with those channelized versions just to just to try it . give it give one tr transcriber the the channelized version of of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if if that 's better or if they if they can postdoc e: you mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ? phd a: yeah . yeah . yeah . postdoc e: that 'd be excellent . yeah , that 'd be really great . as it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time uh , aligned . i also wan na tell um , i also wanted to r raise the issue that ok so , there 's this idea we 're gon na have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gon na be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . and actually the master phd b: two or more . two or more different functions . postdoc e: two two or more . and that the master is gon na be the channelized version . phd b: right . postdoc e: so right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . and now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . but i wanted to get all the finished all the checks phd b: yeah , so that has implications for your script . grad c: yeah . so , uh , have those e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? and i know i 've seen @ @ i 've seen they 've been channelized , postdoc e: yes , they have . grad d: all ten hours ? grad c: but postdoc e: except for the missing thirty minutes . grad c: have they uh have they been has the time have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel grad d: great . postdoc e: uh , for for a total of like twenty m f for a total of let 's see , four times total of about an thirty minutes . that 's that 's been the case . grad c: so , postdoc e: and plus the training , whatever you have . grad c: i guess , i mean , i do n't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but i grad d: well it 's just we 're missing tea . grad c: yeah , i know . grad d: so . grad c: no , but i mean my question is like should i wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before i do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the into the our layer of uh transcripts . postdoc e: well , you know the problem the problem is that some some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring are to combine bins that were time bins which were previously separate . and the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off . grad c: right . postdoc e: and so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . and , grad c: ok . no i know i know that adjusting those things are gon na is gon na make it better . postdoc e: so i it 's gon na be a more reliable thing and i 'm not sure grad c: i mean i 'm sure about that , postdoc e: yeah . grad c: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or postdoc e: well partly it depends on how um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time , grad c: yeah . yeah . postdoc e: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes . grad c: yeah , i do n't doubt it . um , so . phd b: so right now the what you 're doing is you 're taking the uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ? grad c: yeah . i 'm doing it myself . i mean i if the time markings are n't different across channels , like the channelized version really does n't have any more information . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , i was just i mean , originally i had done before like the channelized versions were coming out . phd b: right . right . grad c: um , phd b: so i i th i think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals . grad c: and so it 's a question of like what mm - hmm . mm - hmm . postdoc e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on . postdoc e: yep . mm - hmm . grad c: right . phd b: um , so postdoc e: yeah , i mean phd b: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated postdoc e: yeah . phd b: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions . grad c: ok . phd b: but the i guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that , grad c: i know . phd b: so , maybe grad c: right . postdoc e: but that phd g: but that that 's not hard . postdoc e: mm - hmm . grad c: no . phd g: i i think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription phd b: ok . phd g: so if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you do n't where the word which words moved . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd g: and that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit uh , having to rerun the processing . phd b: mm - hmm . phd g: the cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial . grad c: yeah . i mean as long as it can all be done automatically , i mean , then that 's not a concern . phd b: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , if i just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem . phd g: right . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . mm - hmm . grad c: um , so yeah . as long as we 're at that point . and i know exactly like what the steps will work what 's going on , in the editing process , phd b: yeah . grad c: so . ok . postdoc e: so that 's i i mean i could there were other checks that i did , but it 's i think that we 've unless you think there 's anything else , i think that i 've covered it . professor f: yeah . phd b: i ca n't think of any of the other ones . postdoc e: ok . great . professor f: ok . grad d: oop ! man !

transcription checking procedures have been formalized , including a spell check , producing an exhaustive list of forms identified in the data , attributing every utterance to the appropriate speaker id , glossing spoken forms with their full orthographic counterparts , e.g . 'cuz ' and 'because ' , transcribing acronyms , and encoding comments , i.e . glosses , vocalic and non-vocalic non-speech events , pragmatic cues , and the standardization of spoken forms , e.g . 'mm-hmm ' .

summarize the meeting . </s> grad a: yeah , i think i got my mike on . ok . let 's see . professor b: ok . ami , do yours then we 'll open it and i think it 'll be enough . grad a: mmm does n't , uh it should be the other way . yeah , now it 's on . phd f: right . ok . professor b: ok . so , we all switched on ? grad a: we are all switched on , yeah . professor b: alright . anyway . so , uh , before we get started with the , uh , technical part , i just want to review what i think is happening with the our data collection . phd f: we are all switched on . professor b: so uh , probably after today , that should n't come up in this meeting . th - this this is s should be im it is n't there 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . but , uh , i just want to make sure we 're all together on this . what we think is gon na happen is that , uh , in parallel starting about now we 're gon na get fey to , where you 're working with me and robert , draft a note that we 're gon na send out to various cogsci c and other classes saying , `` here 's an opportunity to be a subject . contact fey . `` and then there 'll be a certain number of um , hours during the week which she will be available and we 'll bring in people . uh , roughly how many , robert ? we d do we know ? grad c: um , fifty was our sort of our first professor b: ok . so , we 're looking for a total of fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with with that . in parallel with that , we 're gon na need to actually do the script . and , so , i guess there 's a plan to have a meeting friday afternoon uh , with uh , jane , and maybe liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . but what i 'd like to do , if it 's o k , is to s to , as i say , start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . the week after that 's spring break , and maybe we 'll look for them some subjects next door grad c: yeah . professor b: or i grad c: yeah . also , fey will not be here during spring break . professor b: oh , ok , then we wo n't do it . grad c: so . professor b: ok . so that 's easy . um . so , is is that make sense to everybody ? grad c: yeah . also , um , f both fey and i will , um , do something of which i may , eh kindly ask you to to do the same thing , which is we gon na check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects . meaning , um , kid children 's gymnastic classes , pre - school parents and so forth . they also sometimes have flexible schedules . so , if you happen to be sort of in a non - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects we also considered using the berkeley high school and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff . professor b: that 's a good idea . grad c: and , um . so that 's as far as our brainstorming was concerned . professor b: oh , yeah . the high school 's a great idea . grad c: so . but i i will just make a first draft of the , uh , note , the `` write - up `` note , send it to you and fey and then professor b: and why do n't you also copy jane on it ? grad c: and , um , are we have we concurred that , uh , these these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ? professor b: uh , th i think they 're necessary . this the permission form . grad c: mmm . professor b: uh , there has to be one , grad c: nuh . n . professor b: and i think we 're just gon na use it as it is , and um grad c: n . you happy with that ? professor b: well , yeah . there 's one tricky part about , um , they have the right um i the last paragraph { comment } `` if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . `` ok ? now that , we had to be included for this other one which might have , uh , meetings , you know , about something . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: in this case , it does n't really make sense . um , so what i 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying `` i do n't want to see the final transcript `` . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and if they do n't if they say `` no , i 'm not willing to sign that `` , then we 'll show them the final transcript . but , um . grad c: yep . makes sense . professor b: that , uh yeah , so we might actually , um s i jane may say that , `` you know , you ca n't do this `` , uh , `` on the same form , we need a separate form . `` but anyway . i 'd i 'd i 'd like to , e e um , add an a little thi eh a thing for them to initial , saying `` nah , do i do n't want to see the final transcript . `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , uh , rec you know . and so forth . so i think we just go with it . grad c: yeah . yeah . ok . so much for the data , except that with munich everything is fine now . they 're gon na transcribe . they 're also gon na translate the , uh , german data from the tv and cinema stuff for andreas . so . they 're they all seem to be happy now , with that . so . w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ? professor b: yep . grad c: well i guess the good good news of last week was the parser . so , um bhaskara and i started working on the the parser . then bhaskara went to class and once he came back , um , it was finished . so . it , uh i did n't measure it , but it was about an hour and ten minutes . grad d: yep . grad c: and , um and now it 's we have a complete english parser that does everything the german parser does . grad d: something like that . professor b: which is not a lot . but grad d: that 's the , uh , point . grad c: the uh , that 's not a lot . professor b: ok . grad d: yes . professor b: right . grad c: and um . grad e: what did you end up having to do ? i mean , wha was there anything interesting about it at all ? grad c: well , if you , eh grad d: we 'll show you . professor b: yeah , we can show us , grad e: or are we gon na see that ? professor b: right ? grad c: well , w w we d the first we did is we we tried to to do change the the `` laufen `` into `` run `` , or `` running `` , or `` runs `` . professor b: yep . grad c: and we noticed that whatever we tried to do , it no effect . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and we were puzzled . grad e: ok . grad c: and , uh , the reason was that the parser i c completely ignores the verb . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so this sentence sentence is parses the p the same output , grad e: hmm . interesting parser property . grad c: um , even if you leave out , um , all all of this . grad e: i see . yeah . grad c: so it 's basically feature film and tv . grad e: today grad c: that 's what you need . grad e: ok . grad c: if if you 'd add add today and evening , it 'll add time or not . grad e: and the t and the time , right ? grad c: so it i it does look at that . grad e: ok . grad c: but all the rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser . grad e: true . professor b: so , you can sho you you are are you gon na show us the little templates ? grad c: and grad e: s grad c: yeah . we ar we can sh er i can show you the templates . i i also have it running here , grad e: the former end g `` oh , i see . uh - huh . grad c: so if i do this now , um , you can see that it parsed the wonderful english sentence , `` which films are on the cinema today evening ? `` but , um . professor b: well , that sounds grad c: uh do do n't worry about it . professor b: no i grad c: it could be `` this evening , which which films are on the cinema `` , or `` running in the cinema , which `` uh , `` today evening `` , uh i `` is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? `` grad e: ok . ok . key words , e basically . professor b: well grad c: ge - elaborate , or , more or less , uh professor b: actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable german orders which are n't allowable english orders and so forth . and it is order - based . so it it is n't it ? grad c: no . grad d: no . professor b: oh . so it it doe i it these u these optional elements , grad c: it is not professor b: it 's it 's actually a set , not a sequence ? grad c: yeah . we were i was afraid that , um professor b: oh ! grad e: so it really is key word matching , basically . professor b: really a se grad c: um . phd f: e yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: oh , wow . grad c: um , i mean , these sentences are just silly . grad e: hmm . grad c: i mean , uh , d these were not the ones we we actually did it . um . what 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? which films are showing ? grad d: are pl playing at the cinema ? grad c: playing ? grad d: yeah . grad e: tonight ? grad d: i changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account . grad e: this this evening ? phd f: actually , you would say , `` which films are on tonight ? `` grad d: you want to get it ? or is di was it easy to get it ? grad c: um . i have no net here . grad d: oh , ok . professor b: do i ? grad c: ok . so . wonderful parse , same thing . um . professor b: right . grad c: except that we d w we do n't have this , uh , time information here now , which is , um oh . this are the reserve . anyways . so . um . these are the sort of the ten different sentence types that the uh the parser was able to do . and it still is , now in english . professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and , um sorry . and , um you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ? grad d: yeah , i mean i changed those sentences to make it , uh , more , uh , idiomatic . and , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . so , in a sense it 's pretty broad . professor b: ok . grad c: ok . so , if you want to look at the templates , they 're conveniently located in a file , `` template `` . um , and this is what i had to do . i had to change , @ @ { comment } `` spielfilm `` to `` film `` , uh , `` film `` to `` movie `` , cinem `` kino `` to `` cinema `` to `` today `` heu `` heute `` to `` today `` , grad e: huh . grad c: evening `` abend `` to `` evening `` professor b: capitalized as well grad a: hmm . grad c: and , um . professor b: y i grad d: one thing i was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the m - three - l basically ? grad c: yep . grad d: ok . grad c: and that 's that 's the next step , professor b: p grad c: but we 'll get to that in a second . professor b: oh . grad c: and so this means , um , `` this `` and `` see `` are not optional . `` want i like `` is all maybe in there , but may also not be in there . professor b: so so , the point is , if it says `` this `` and `` see `` , it also will work in `` see `` and `` this `` ? grad e: s professor b: in the other order ? grad c: yeah . professor b: with those two key words ? grad c: should we try it ? professor b: `` this is the one i want to see `` or whatever . grad c: ok . `` action watch `` , grad d: hmm . grad c: whatever . nothing was specialfi specified . except that it has some references to audio - visual media here . grad d: av medium . grad c: where it gets that from grad d: yeah . grad c: it 's correct , but i do n't know where it gets it from . grad d: `` see `` . grad c: oh , `` see `` . yeah . yeah . yep . ok . grad d: i mean it 's sort of grad c: and `` see this `` { comment } is exactly the same thing . professor b: ok , so it is set - based . alright . grad d: one thing i was wondering was , those percentage signs , right ? so , i mean , why do we even have them ? grad c: yep . grad d: because if you did n't have them grad c: uh , i 'll tell you why . because it gives a you a score . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and the value of the score is , v i assume , i guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score it is . grad d: oh . ok . so that 's the main purpose . alright . grad e: it 's a match . phd f: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: ok . grad c: so we we should n't belittle it too much . it 's doing something , some things , and it 's very flexible . i 've just tried to grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: be nice . phd f: right . professor b: no , no . fine . grad e: right yeah . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , flexible it is . phd f: but grad c: ok . um , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . uh but we 'll mmm , that means we may need two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes , professor b: alright . grad c: i hope . grad d: right . grad c: and the next thing i would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be too difficult either , is to say , `` ok let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the the mapping of of , uh , words to the m - three - l but we also wanted to change add a new sentence type and and make up some some new m - three - l s `` professor b: yep . so that 'd be great . it would be a good exercise to just see whether one can get that to run . grad c: see th mm - hmm . yep . and , um , grad d: so , that 's grad c: that 's should n't be too tough . grad d: fine , yeah . yeah , so where are those those functions `` action `` , `` goodbye `` , and so on , right ? are they actually , um , are they going to be called ? um , are they present in the code for the parser ? grad c: yeah . i think what it does , it i i it does something sort of fancy . it loads um it has these style sheets and also the , um , schemata . so what it probably does , is it takes the , uh , um is this where it is ? this is already the xml stuff ? this is where it takes its own , um , syntax , and converts it somehow . um . where is the uh grad d: what are you looking for ? grad c: um , where it actually produces the the xml out of the , uh , parsed stuff . grad d: oh , ok . grad c: no , this is not it . uh . i ca n't find it now . you mean , where the where the act how the action `` goodbye `` maps into something grad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , where are those constructors defined ? grad d: oh . grad c: nope . grad d: no , that 's not it . grad c: yeah . this is sort of what happens . this is what you would need to to change to get the , uh , xml changed . so when it encounts encounters `` day `` , it will , uh , activate those h classes in the in the xml stuff but , um i saw those actions uh , the `` goodbye `` stuff somewhere . hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm . grad a: grep for it ? grad c: yeah . let 's do that . oh . grad d: mmm . m - three - l dot dtd ? grad c: yep . grad d: that 's just a specification for the xml format . grad c: yep . well , we 'll find that out . so whatever n this does i mean this is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ? professor b: hmm ? oh , yeah . grad c: and , um so , whenever it it encounters `` goodbye `` , which we can make it do in a second , here grad a: that function automatically generates an initialized xml structure ? grad c: i grad d: i think each of those functions act on the current xml structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a a l a field to it , or something . professor b: y yeah . they also seem to affect state , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: cause some of them there were other actions uh , that that s seemed to step state variables somewhere , grad d: right . professor b: like the n s `` discourse status confirm `` . ok . so that 's going to be a call on the discourse grad c: yep . professor b: and confirm that it 's grad c: w we mm - hmm grad d: oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree , professor b: i think that 's right . grad c: e grad d: but it 's going to change the event . professor b: i think it 's actually that looks like it 's state modification . grad d: oh . oh . grad c: e mmm um , well i there is a feature called `` discourse - status `` , grad d: when there 's a feature . professor b: yeah . grad c: and so whenever i just say , `` write `` , it will it will put this in here . professor b: oh , so it always just is it so it well , go back , then , cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the xml . grad c: h yep . professor b: uh - huh ! i 'm not i 'm not sure . grad c: so , this professor b: e i 'm not sure e that grad c: um well , we we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , `` goodbye `` , causes it to c to create basically an `` action goodbye - end - action `` . professor b: right . grad c: which is a means of telling the system to shut down . professor b: right . grad c: now , if we know that `` write `` produces a `` feature discourse - status confirm discourse - status `` . so if i now say `` write , goodbye , `` it should do that . it sho it creates this , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: `` confirm goodbye `` . professor b: yep . grad d: right there . but there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put goodbye in content , but , uh , confirm in features ? grad c: oh . it d it n that 's because grad d: so so , it 's not just that it 's adding that field . professor b: right . grad d: it 's professor b: absolutely . good point . grad d: ok . professor b: it 's it 's the it 's under what sub - type you 're doing it . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad a: it 's mystery functions . grad c: well , sometimes it m sometimes , i grad d: well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably . professor b: yeah , each is s so that 's funny . grad c: when it professor b: you bury the s the state in the function alright . grad c: it grad a: well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right ? professor b: uh grad a: so it 's just a shorthand . professor b: yeah . grad c: for example oh , this is german . sorry . e so , now , this , it can not do anymore . nothing comes out of here . grad a: a `` not a number `` is a value . awesome . grad c: so , it does n't speak german anymore , but it does speak english . and there is , here , a reference so , this tells us that whatever is has the id `` zero `` is referenced here by @ @ { comment } the restriction seed and this is exa `` i want `` what was the sentence ? professor b: `` i want two seats here . `` grad c: `` need two seats here . `` nuh . `` and where is it playing ? `` there should also be a reference to something , maybe . our d this is re um mmm . here , we change and so , we here we add something to the discourse - status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before and , uh and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema . grad a: so then , whatever takes this m - three - l is what actually changes the state , not the yeah , ok . professor b: no , right , the discourse maintainer , grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . i see . and it and it runs around looking for discourse status tags , and doing whatever it does with them . and other people ignore those tags . alright . so , yeah . i definitely think it 's it 's worth the exercise of trying to actually add something that is n't there . grad c: hmm ? professor b: uh disc grad c: sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing . professor b: yeah , a kid understanding what 's going on . then the next thing we talked about is actually , um , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that . grad c: ok . point number two . i got the , uh , m - three - l for the routes today . uh , so i got some more . this is sort of the uh , um , hmm . interesting . it 's just going up , it 's not going back down . so , this is um , what i got today is the the new um m - three - l for um , the maps , professor b: yep . grad c: uh , and with some examples so , this is the xml and this is sort of what it will look like later on , even though it you ca n't see it on on this resolution . and this is what it sort of is the the structure of map requests , um also not very interesting , and here is the more interesting stuff for us , is the routes , route elements , and , again , as we thought it 's really simple . this is sort of the , uh , um , parameters . we have @ @ { comment } simple `` from objects `` and `` to objects `` and so forth , points of interest along the way and , um , i asked them whether or not we could , um first of all , i was little bit it seemed to me that this m way of doing it is sort of a stack a step backwards from the way we 've done it before . t it seems to me that some notions were missing . professor b: s grad c: so these are these are professor b: so these are these are your friends back at eml . grad c: yep . who are doing this . professor b: so this is not a complicated negotiation . there 's there 's not seven committees , or anything , right ? grad c: no . no , this is very straightforward . professor b: great . so this is just trying to it 's a design thing , not a political thing . once we 've eh we can just sort of agree on what oughta be done . grad c: yeah . professor b: good . grad c: exactly . and , um and , uh however , the , uh e so that you understand , it is really simple . uh you you have a route , and you cut it up in different pieces . and every every element of that e r r f of that every segment we call a `` route element `` . and so , from a to b we cut up in three different steps , and every step has a `` from object `` where you start , a `` to object `` where y where you sort of end , and some points of interest along the way . what w i was sort of missing here , and uh , maybe it was just me being too stupid , is , i did n't sort of get the the notion of the global goal of the whole route . really , s was not straightforward visibly for me . and some other stuff . and i suggested that they should n be k uh , kind enough to do s two things for us , is one , um , also allocating , uh , some tags for our action schema enter - vista - approach , and and also , um , since you had suggested that that , um , we figure out if we ever , for a demo reason , wanted to shortcut directly to the g gis and the planner , of how we can do it . now , what 's the state of the art of getting to entrances , um , what 's the syntax for that , how get getting to vista points and calculating those on the spot . and the approach mode , anyhow , is the default . that 's all they do it these days . wherever you 'll find a route planner it n does nothing but get to the closest point where the street network is at minimal distance to the geometric center . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: so . professor b: so , well , let now , this is important . let , uh i want a a again , outside of m almost managerial point , um you 're in the midst of this , so you know better . but it seems to me it 's probably a good idea to li uh minimize the number of uh , change requests we make of them . so it seemed to me , what we ought to do is get our story together . ok ? and think about it some , internally , before asking them to make changes . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh . does this does this make sense to you guys ? it i mean you 're you 're doing the the interaction but it seemed to me that what we ought to do is come up with a uh , something where you , um and i i do n't know who 's mok working most closely on it . probably johno . ok . uh , take what they have , send it to everybody saying `` this is what they have , this is what we think we should add `` , ok ? and then have a d a an iteration within our group saying `` hmm , well `` ok ? and get our best idea of what we should add . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then go back to them . is i or , i do n't know does this make sense to you ? or grad c: yeah . especially if we want sort of , what i my feeling was eh we we sort of reserved something that has a r eh an ok label . that 's th that was my th first sort of step . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: i w no matter how we want to call it , this is sort of our playground . professor b: right . grad c: and if we get something in there that is a structure elaborate and and and and and complex enough to to to maybe enable a whole simulation , one of these days , that would be u the the perfect goal . professor b: right . that 's right . so . so , yeah . the problem is n't the short ra range optimization . it 's the sort of o one or two year kind of thing . ok . what are the thl class of things we think we might try to do in a year or two ? how how would we try to characterize those and what do we want to request now that 's leave enough space to do all that stuff ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: yep . professor b: and that re that requires some thought . grad c: yep . professor b: and so that sounds like a great thing to do as the priority item um , as soon as we can do it . grad c: yep . professor b: so y so you guys will send to the rest of us um a version of um , this , and the uh , description grad a: with sugge yeah , suggested improvements and professor b: well b yeah . so , the the uh not everyone uh , reads german , so if you 'd um grad a: mmm . professor b: tu uh , tur change the description to , uh , english grad a: ok . professor b: and , um , then then , yeah . then , with some sug s suggestions about where where do we go from here ? grad a: ok . professor b: uh , this and this , of course , was just the action end . uh , at some point we 're going to have to worry about the language end . but for the moment just uh , t for this class of of things , we might want to try to encompass . and grad a: then the scope of this is beyond approach and vis - or vista . yeah , yeah . professor b: oh , yeah , yeah yeah yeah . this is this is everything that that , um , you know , um we might want to do in the next couple years . grad a: yeah , yeah . so what would grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . professor b: we do n't i mean , that 's an issue . we do n't know what , entirely . grad a: uh , yeah . but i 'm just but the yeah , ok . so i just this xml stuff here just has to do with source - path - goal type stuff , in terms of traveling through heidelberg . grad c: hmm . grad a: or travel , specifically . professor b: right . grad a: so , but this o is the domain greater than that ? professor b: no . grad a: ok . professor b: i think i think the i the idea is that oh . it 's beyond source - path - goal , but i think we do n't need to get beyond it @ @ { comment } tourists in heidelberg . grad a: ok . professor b: it seems to me we can get all the complexity we want in actions and in language without going outside of tourists in heidelberg . ok ? but you know , i depending on what people are interested in , one could have , uh , tours , one could have um , explanations of why something is is , you know , why why was this done , or i mean , no there 's no end to the complexity you can build into the uh , what a tourist in heidelberg might ask . grad a: mmm . professor b: so , at least unless somebody else wants t to suggest otherwise i think the general domain we do n't have t to uh , broaden . that is , tourists in heidelberg . and if there 's something somebody comes up with that ca n't be done that way , then , sure . w we 'll we 'll look at that , but uh i 'd be s i i 'd be surprised at if there 's any important issue that that and , um i mean if if you want to uh , push us into reference problems , that would be great . phd f: ok . professor b: ok , so this is his specialty is reference , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and you know , what what are these things referring to ? not only anaphora , but , uh , more generally the , uh this whole issue of , uh , referring expressions , and , what is it that they 're actually dealing with in the world ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , again , this is li in the databa this is also pretty well formed because there is an ontology , and the database , and stuff . so it is n't like , um , you know , the evening star or stuff like that . phd f: right . professor b: i i it all the entities do have concrete reference . although th the to get at them from a language may not be trivial . phd f: right . professor b: there are n't really deep mysteries about um , what w what things the system knows about . phd f: right . right . and you have both proper names and descriptions professor b: all those things . phd f: and y and you can ask for it . professor b: yeah . you have proper names , and descriptions . grad c: mm - hmm . phd f: right . professor b: and a l and a lot and and anaphora , and pronouns , grad c: nuh . phd f: ok . right . professor b: and all those things . phd f: right . grad c: now , we hav the the whole unfortunately , the whole database is , uh , in german . we have just commissioned someone to translate some bits of it , ie the e the shortest k the the more general descriptions of all the objects and , um , persons and events . so , it 's a relational database with persons , events , and , um , objects . and it 's it 's quite , um , there . but did y i uh i think there will be great because the reference problem really is not trivial , even if you have such a g well - defined world . professor b: he knows . grad c: ah - he you are not , uh , throwing uh , uh , carrying owls to athens . grad a: could you give me an example of a reference problem ? so so l i can make it more concrete ? grad c: well how do i get to the powder - tower ? we sort of t think that our bit in this problem is interesting , but , just to get from powder - tower to an object i id in a database is also not really trivial . phd f: or or if you take something even more scary , um , `` how do i get to the third building after the tower ? the ple - powder - tower ? `` grad a: mmm . phd f: uh , you need some mechanism for professor b: yeah . or , you know , the church across from city hall , or grad a: or the re the restaurant where they wear lederhosen ? grad c: or the phd f: right . grad a: or is that professor b: yeah , that would be fine . grad a: ok . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . grad c: o or or tower , or this tower , or that building , or phd f: right . grad e: uniquely . grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . trying to professor b: or you can say `` how `` you know , `` how do i get back ? `` grad a: yeah , yeah . professor b: ok . and , again , it 's just a question of which of these things , uh , people want to dive into . what , uh , i think i 'm gon na try to do , and i guess , pwww ! let 's say that by the end of spring break , i 'll try to come up with some general story about , um , construction grammar , and what constructions we 'd use and how all this might fit together . there 's this whole framework problem that i 'm feeling really uncomfortable about . and i have n't had a chance to think about it seriously . but i i want to i want to do that early , rather than late . and you and i will probably have to talk about this some . grad c: u u u u that 's what strikes me , that we sort of the de g uh , small something , uh , maybe we should address one of these days , is to that most of the work people actually always do is look at some statements , and and analyze those . whether it 's abstracts or newspapers and stuff like this . professor b: hmm . grad c: but the whole i is it is it really relevant that we are dealing mostly with , sort of , questions ? professor b: oh , yeah ? grad c: uh , you know professor b: well , i mean yeah , i d grad c: and this is it seems to me that we should maybe at least spend a session or or brainstorm a little bit about whether that l this is special case in that sense . grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , i do n't know . you know did we ever find m metaphorical use in in questions in in that sense , really ? professor b: yeah . grad d: professor b: you will . grad c: and how soon , professor b: oh , yeah . grad c: i do n't know . professor b: i mean , uh , we could take all the standard metaphor examples and make question versions of them . ok . grad c: `` who got kicked out of france ? `` phd f: muh professor b: yeah , or , you know . `` wh - why is he why is he pushing for promotion ? `` grad c: nuh . phd f: right . professor b: or , `` who 's pushing proof `` grad c: nuh . professor b: er , just pick pick any of them and just do the eh grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so i do n't i do n't think , uh , it 's at all difficult uh , to convert them to question forms that really exist and people say all the time , um and sort of we do n't know how to handle them , too . right ? i mean , it 's i d it we do n't know how to handle the declarative forms , @ @ { comment } really , and , then , the interrogative forms , ah - oh . uh . yeah . grad d: ooo ! professor b: nancy , it looked like you were s grad e: oh . it 's just that that the goals are g very different to cases so we had this problem last year when we first thought about this domain , actually , was that most of the things we talked about are our story understanding . professor b: right . grad e: uh , we 're gon na have a short discourse and the person talking is trying to , i do n't know , give you a statement and tell you something . and here , it 's th grad c: help you create a mental model , blah - blah - blah . yeah . grad e: yea - eh y yeah , i guess so . professor b: yes . grad e: and then here , y you are j uh , the person is getting information and they or may not be following some larger plan , you know , that we have to recognize or , you know , infer . and th th the their discourse patterns probably do n't follo follow quite as many logical connec professor b: right . no , i think that 's one of things that 's interesting , is is in this sort of over - arching story we we worked it out for th as you say , this the storytelling scenario . grad e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: and i think it 's really worth thinking through what it looks like . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: what is the simspec mean , et cetera . grad e: mm - hmm . m right . cuz for a while we were thinking , `` well , how can we change the , um , data to sort of illicit tha illicit , um , actions that are more like what we are used to ? `` but obviously we would rather , you know , try to figure out what 's what 's , you know professor b: well , i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe that 's what we 'll do is is s u e we can do anything we want with it . i mean , once we have fulfilled these requirements , grad e: yep . mmm mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: ok , and the one for next uh , summer is just half done and then the other half is this , um , `` generation thing `` which we think is n't much different . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so once that 's done , then all the rest of it is , uh , sort of , you know , what we want to do for the research . and we can w we can do all sorts of things that do n't fit into their framework at all . th - there 's no reason why we 're c we 're constrained to do that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: if we can use all the , uh , execution engines , then we can , you know , really try things that would be too too much pain to do ourselves . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but there 's no obligation on any of this . so , if we want to turn it into u understan standing stories about heidelberg , we can do that . i mean , that would just be a t a um grad c: or , as a matter of fact , we need and if we if we ' r eh take a ten year perspective , we need to do that , because w e w a assuming we have this , um , we we ta in that case we actually do have these wonderful stories , and historical anecdotes , professor b: yeah . grad c: and knights jumping out of windows , grad e: mmm . grad c: and - and - and { comment } { comment } tons of stuff . so , th the database is huge , and if we want to answer a question on that , we actually have to go one step before that , and understand that . in order to e do sensible information extraction . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: you might , yeah . grad c: and so , um , this has been a a a deep map research issue that was is is part of the unresolved , and to - do 's , and something for the future , is how can we sort of run our our text , our content , through a machine that will enable us , later , to retrieve or answer e questions more sensibly ? phd f: mwa mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . mmm . professor b: right . anyway . s who 's going ? phd f: so , uh so , uh , i was just going to ask , um , so , what is the the basic thing that that you are , um , obligated to do , um , uh , by the summer before w uh y c we can move professor b: ah ! ok . so eh yeah . so , what happened is , there 's this , eh , uh robert was describing the there 's two packages there 's a , uh , quote parser , there 's a particular piece of this big system , which , in german , uh , takes these t sentence templates and produces xml structures . and one of our jobs was to make the english equivalent of that . phd f: right . professor b: that , these guys did in a in a day . phd f: right . right . professor b: the other thing is , at the other end , roughly at the same level , there 's something that takes , uh , x m l structures , produces an output xml structure which is instructions for the generator . phd f: right . professor b: ok ? and then there 's a language generator , and then after that a s a synthesizer that goes from an xml structure to , uh , language generation , to actual specifications for a synthesizer . eh , but again , there 's one module in which there 's one piece that we have to convert to english . phd f: right . right . got it . professor b: is that ok . and that but as i say , this is all along was viewed as a kind of a m a minor thing , necessary , but but not phd f: right . professor b: ok ? phd f: right . professor b: and much more interesting is the fact that , as part of doing this , we we are , you know , inheriting this system that does all sort of these other things . phd f: that 's great ! right . professor b: not precisely what we want , and that 's that 's wh where it it gets difficult . and i i do n't pretend to understand yet what i think we really ought to do . grad c: ok . so , e enough of that , but i , uh , um , mmm , the e sort of , johno and i will take up that responsibility , and , um , get a first draft of that . now , we have um just , i think two more short things . professor b: ok . grad c: um , y you guys sort of started fighting , uh , on the bayes - net `` noisy - or `` front ? grad d: hmm . yeah , i thought i should , um , talk a little bit about that , because that might be a good , uh , sort of architecture to have , in general for , uh , problems with , you know , multiple inputs to a node . professor b: good ! ok . good . and what 's the other one ? so that just we know what the d agenda is ? grad c: um , the wu paper , i think maybe professor b: oh , yeah . i 've got a couple new wu papers as well . uh , so i i 've been in contact with wu , so , probably let 's put that off till i i till i understand better , uh , what he 's doing . it 's just a little embarrassing cause all this was in his thesis and i was on his thesis committee , and , so , i r really knew this at one time . phd f: ugh . professor b: but , i i it 's not only uh is part of what i have n't figured out yet is is how all this goes together . so i 'll dig up some more stuff from dekai . and so why do n't we just do the , uh grad d: ok . so should i is there a white board here that i can use ? professor b: yeah . you could grad d: uh grad e: yeah . professor b: squealing sound ? grad d: or shall i just use this ? professor b: it 's probably just as easy . i phd f: yeah . grad d: yeah . grad a: you can put the microphone in your pocket . grad d: hey ! grad a: i was envying you and your pocket cause i do n't have one . grad e: it was a quick one , huh ? professor b: that 's why they invented `` pocket t 's `` . grad a: exactly grad e: they have clips ! grad d: yeah . grad e: huh . grad d: so , um recall that , uh , we want to have this kind of structure in our bayes - nets . namely , that , um you have these nodes that have several bands , right ? so does i mean , they sort of the typical example is that , um , these are all a bunch of cues for something , and this is a certain effect that we 'd like to conclude . so , uh like , let 's just look at the case when , um , this is actually the the final action , right ? so this is like , uh , you know , touch , grad c: y grad d: or grad c: e - eva grad d: sorry . uh grad c: grad d: yeah , e - eva , right ? grad c: yeah . grad d: enter , v view , approach , right ? phd f: w what was this ? it i i i ehhh , { comment } i ehhh . professor b: wri - write it out for for grad d: so , this is yeah . enter , phd f: i mean grad d: view , approach . phd f: ok . right . grad d: right . so , i mean , we 'd like to take all these various cues , right ? phd f: like the army . grad d: so this one might be , say , uh grad e: new terminology ? phd f: yeah . grad c: hmm ? grad d: well , let me pick a random one grad e: i have n't heard that before . grad d: and say , uh i do n't know , it could be , like this is n't the way it really is , but let me say that , suppose someone mentioned , uh , admission fees ah , it takes too long . try let me just say `` landmark `` . if the thing is a landmark , you know , um then there 's another thing that says if um if it 's closed or not , at the moment . alright , so you have nodes . right ? and the , uh , problem that we were having was that , you know , given n - nodes , there 's `` two to the n `` given n - nodes , and furthermore , the fact that there 's three things here , we need to specify `` three times `` , uh , `` two to the n `` probabilities . right ? that 's assuming these are all binary , which f they may not be . for example , they could be `` time of day `` , in which case we could , uh , say , you know , `` morning , afternoon , evening , night `` . so , this could be more so , it 's a lot , anyway . and , that 's a lot of probabilities to put here , which is kind of a pain . so noisy - ors are a way to , uh , sort of deal with this . um where should i put this ? so , the idea is that , um , let 's call these , uh , c - one , c - two , c - three , and c - four , and e , for cause and effect , i guess . the idea is to have these intermediate nodes . right . well , actually , the idea , first of all , is that each of these things has a quote - unquote distinguished state , which means that this is the state in which we do n't really know anything about it . so right ? so , for example , if we do n't really know if the thing is a landmark or not , or , i if that just does n't seem relevant , then that would be th sort of the disting - the distinguish state . it 's a really , you know , if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee , you know , if they did n't talk about it , that would be the distinguish state . grad c: s so , this is a fanciful way of saying `` default `` ? grad d: so yeah , yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: that 's just what they the word they used in that paper . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so , the idea is that , um , you have these intermediate nodes , right ? e - one , e - two , e - three and e - four ? professor b: so , this is the heckerman paper you 're working with ? good . grad d: yeah . so the idea is that , each of these ei is represents what this would be if all the other ones were in the distinguish state . right ? so , for example , suppose that the person i mean , suppose the thing that they talked about is a landmark . but none of the other sort of cues really apply . then , this would be w the this would just represent the probability distribution of this , assuming that this cue is turned on and the other ones just did n't apply ? so , you know , if it is a landmark , and no none of the other things really ap applicable , then this would represent the probability distribution . so maybe in this case maybe we just t k maybe we decide that , if the thing 's a landmark and we do n't know anything else , then we 're gon na conclude that , um they want to view it with probability , you know , point four . they want to enter it with probability , uh with probability point five and they want to approach it probability point one , say right ? so we come up with these l little tables for each of those ok . and the final thing is that , um this is a deterministic function of these , so we do n't need to specify any probabilities . we just have to , um , say what function this is , right ? so we can let this be , um g of e - one comma e - two . e - three , e - four . right ? and our example g would be , um , a majority vote ? right ? professor b: well . ok , so th so the important point is w not what the g function is . the important point is that um there is a a a general kind of idea of shortcutting the full cpt . th - c the full conditional probability table with some function . ok ? which y w you choose appropriately for each case . so , depending on what your situation is , there are different functions which are most appropriate . and so i gave eh bhaskara a copy of this , eh sort of `` ninety - two `` { comment } paper . d and you got one , robert . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: i do n't know who else has seen it . grad d: there 's i mean yeah . it 's heckerman and breese . professor b: it 's short . it 's short . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , i u w um , yo uh you have you read it yet ? grad d: uh , you can yeah , you should take a look at it , i guess . grad a: ok professor b: ok , so you should take a look . nancy , i 'm sure you read it at some point in life . grad e: i yeah . i i think so , yeah . professor b: ok . and so , you other guys can decide how interested grad e: yeah , @ @ . professor b: anyway . so the paper is n't th is n't real hard . phd f: ok . professor b: and uh one of the questions just come at bhaskara is , `` how much of this does javabayes support ? `` grad d: yeah , it 's a good question . um the so what we want , is basically javabayes to support deterministic , uh , functions . professor b: right . grad d: and , um in a sense it sup we can make it supported by , um , manually , uh , entering , you know , probabilities that are one and zeros , right ? professor b: right . so the little handout that the little thing that i sent i sent a message saying , uh , here is a way to take one thing you could do , which is kind of s in a way , stupid , is take this deterministic function , and use it to build the cpt . so , if ba - javabayes wo n't do it for you , grad c: mmm . professor b: that you can convert all that into what the cpt would be . um and , what i sent out about a week ago , was an idea of how to do that , for , um , evidence combination . so one of one function that you could use as your `` g function `` is an e e evidence - combining . so you just take the uh , if each of th if each of the ones has its own little table like that , then you could take the , uh , strength of each of those , times its little table , and you 'd add up the total evidence for `` v `` , `` e `` , and `` a `` . grad d: mmm . i do n't think you can do this , because g is a function from that to that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: yep . right . grad d: right ? so there 's no numbers . there 's just quadruplets of well , n - duplets of , uh , e vs . professor b: i i i no , no but i 'm saying is there there is a w i mean , if y if if you decide what 's what is appropriate , is probablistic evidence combination , you can write a function that does it . it 's a pui it 's actually one of the examples he 's got in there . but , anyway , s skipping skipping the question of exactly which functions now is it clear that you might like to be able to shortcut the whole conditional probability table . grad c: i mean , in some it seems very plausible in some sense , where we will be likely to not be observe some of the stuff . cuz we do n't have the a access to the information . grad d: oops , { comment } sorry . professor b: right . that 's one of the problems , is , w is is , where would th where would it all come from ? grad c: yeah . so . grad d: is oh , right . w would not be ab able to observe grad e: mmm . grad d: what ? grad c: i if it 's a a a discar discourse initial phrase , we will have nothing in the discourse history . so , if if we ever want to wonder what was mention grad d: oh oh . a are you saying that we 'll not be able to observe certain nodes ? that 's fine . that is sort of orthogonal thing . professor b: yeah , so there 's there 's two separate things , robert . the f the the the bayes - nets in general are quite good at saying , `` if you have no current information about this variable just take the prior for that . `` ok ? th - that 's what they 're real good at . so , if you do n't have any information about the discourse , you just use your priors of of whatever eh the discourse uh , eh , basically whatever w it 's probabilistically , whatever it would be . and it 's it 's sort of not a great estimate , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's the best one you have , and , so forth . so that , they 're good at . but the other problem is , how do you fill in all these numbers ? and i think that 's the one he was getting at . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah . so , specifically in this case you have to f have this many numbers , grad e: yeah . grad d: whereas in this case you just have to have three for this , three for this , three for this . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so you have to have just three n ? so , this is much smaller than that . grad a: asymptotically . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: well , pretty quickly . grad d: yeah . right . grad a: u yeah , yeah . professor b: i mean grad e: so , you do n't need da data enough to cover uh , nearly as much stuff . grad d: i do n't know . grad a: so , really , i what a a noisy - or seems to kind of `` neural - net - acize `` these bayes - nets ? professor b: eh well to some no , no . so , `` noisy - or `` is a funny way of referring to this , because the noisy - or is only one instance . grad d: yeah . this is n't a noisy - or anymore . professor b: that one actually is n't a noisy - or . so we 'll have to think of of a way t t grad a: yeah . grad d: it 's a noisy - arg - max or a noisy - whatever . professor b: yeah , whatever . yeah . so eh { comment } um grad a: well , my point was more that we just eh with the neural net , right , eh , things come in , you have a function that combines them and professor b: yeah , it it tha - that 's true . it is a is also more neural - net - like , although uh , it is n't necessarily sum uh , s you know , sum of weights or anything like that . grad a: right . professor b: i mean i you could have , uh , like the noisy - or function , really is one that 's essentially says , uh , take the max . grad d: well , the `` or `` . professor b: same . grad d: right . i guess you 're right . yeah . professor b: uh but anyway . so and , i thi i think that 's the standard way people get around the uh there are a couple other ones . there are ways of breaking this up into s to to subnets and stuff like that . but , um the i think we definitely i think it 's a great idea tha to to pursue that . grad d: yep . so grad c: wha - still sort of leaves one question . it i mean you you can always uh see easily that that i 'm not grasping everything correctly , but what seemed attractive to me in im uh in the last discussion we had , was that we find out a means of of getting these point four , point five , point one , of c - four , not because , you know , a is a landmark or not , but we we we label this whatever object type , and if it 's a garden , it 's point three , point four , point two . if it 's a castle , it 's point eight , point one , point one . if it 's , uh , a town hall , it 's point two , point three , point five . professor b: right . grad c: and so forth . and we do n't want to write this down necessarily every time for something but , uh let 's see . grad d: it 'll be students where else would it be stored ? that 's the question . grad c: well , in the beginning , we 'll write up a flat file . professor b: oh . grad c: we know we have twenty object types professor b: yeah . grad c: and we 'll write it down in a flat file . professor b: no . so , i is well , let me say something , guys , cuz there 's not there 's a pretty point about this we might as well get in right now . which is the hierarchy that s comes with the ontology is just what you want for this . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so that uh , if you know about it let 's say , a particular town hall that , it 's one that is a monument , then , that would be stored there . if you do n't , you look up the hierarchy , eh so , you you you may or so , then you 'd have this little vector of , um , you know , approach mode or eva mode . let 's ok , so we have the eva vector for for various kinds of landmarks . if you know it for a specific landmark you put it there . if you do n't , you just go up the hierarchy to the first place you find one . grad d: ok . so , is the idea to put it in the ontology ? professor b: absolutely . grad d: ok . professor b: uh , or , link to or but but in any case i view it logically as being in the ontology . it 's part of what you know about a an object , is its eva vector . grad d: ok . professor b: and , if yo as i say , if you know about a specific object , you put it there . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: this is part of what dekai was doing . so , when we get to wu , the - e we 'll see w what he says about that . grad d: right . professor b: and , then if you if it is n't there , it 's higher , and if you do n't know anything except that it 's a b it 's it 's a building , then up at the highest thing , you have the pr what amounts to a prior . if you do n't know anything else about a building , uh , you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level , grad d: right . professor b: which might be equal , or whatever it is . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , that 's a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology . and it seems to me the obvious thing to do , unless we find a reason to do something different . grad d: yeah . professor b: does this make sense to you ? grad d: so professor b: bhask - ? grad d: yeah . so , we are but we we 're not doing the ontology , so we have to get to whoever is doing the u ultimately , professor b: indeed . so , that 's another thing we 're gon na need to do , is is , to , either grad d: we have to get them to professor b: we 're gon na need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology , or add fields , or { comment } { comment } some way to associate or , w it may be that all we can do is , um , some of our own hash tables that it th - the th you know , there 's always a way to do that . it 's a just a question of grad a: yeah , hash on object name to , you know , uh , the probabilities or whatever . professor b: i th yeah . e right . and , so , i uh grad c: but it 's , uh well , it strikes me as a what for if we get the mechanism , that will be sort of the wonderful part . and then , how to make it work is is the second part , in the sense that i mean , m the guy who was doing the ontology eh , eh , s ap apologized that i it will take him another through two to three days because they 're having really trouble getting the upper level straight , and right now . the reason is , given the craw bet uh , the the the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and , on all history , they 're really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the eml projects , and that 's , uh , uh , sort of a tough cookie , a little bit tougher than they figured . i could have told them s so . professor b: right . yeah . grad c: uh . but , nevertheless , it 's going to be there by n by , uh , next monday and i will show you what 's what some examples from that for towers , and stuff . and , um , what i do n't think is ever going to be in the ontology , is sort of , you know , the likelihood of , eh , people entering r town halls , and looking at town halls , and approaching town halls , especially since we are b dealing with a case - based , not an instance - based ontology . so , there will be nothing on on that town hall , or on the berkeley town hall , or on the heidelberg town hall , it 'll just be information on town halls . professor b: well , they they they how ar what are they gon na do with instances ? grad c: but what professor b: i mean , you y grad c: well , that 's hhh . that 's that 's al different question . i mean , th the first , they had to make a design question , `` do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not , that just has the types ? `` professor b: ok . grad c: and , so , since the d decision was on types , on a d simply type - based , we now have to hook it up to instances . i mean this is professor b: but what i what is smartkom gon na do about that ? grad c: one professor b: cuz , they have instances all the time . grad c: yeah , but the ontology is really not a smartkom thing , in in and of itself . that 's more something that i kicked loose in in eml . so it 's a completely eml thing . professor b: but uh uh smartkom 's gon na need an ontology . grad c: yes , u a w a lot of people are aware of that . professor b: i understand , but is anybody doing anything about it ? grad c: um professor b: ok . it 's a political problem . we wo n't worry about it . grad c: no , but th the r eh i th i still think that there is enough information in there . for example , whether ok . so , th it will know about the twenty object types there are in the world . let 's assume there are only twenty object types in this world . and it will know if any of those have institutional meanings . so , in a sense , `` i `` used as institutions for some s in some sense or the other . which makes them enterable . right ? in a sense . professor b: yeah . anyway . so we may have to grad c: you know . professor b: this is with the whole thing , grad c: yep . professor b: we may have to build another data stru grad c: yep . professor b: conceptually , we know what should be done . when we see what people have done , it may turn out that the easiest thing to do is to build a a separate thing that that just pools i i like , i i it it may be , that , the the instance w that we have to build our own instance , uh , things , that , with their types , grad d: yeah , it 's right , we can just assume professor b: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type . so we build a little data structure and so what we would do in that case , is , in our instance gadget have our e v and if we d there is n't one we 'd get the type and then have the e v as for the type . so we 'd have our own little , uh , eva tree . and then , for other , uh , vectors that we need . grad d: yeah . right . professor b: so , we 'd have our own little things so that whenever we needed one , we 'd just use the ontology to get the type , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: and then would hash or whatever we do to say , `` ah ! grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: if it 's that type of thing , and we want its eva vector , pppt - pppt ! { comment } it 's that . `` so , i i think we can handle that . and then but , the combination functions , and whether we can put those in java bayes , and all that sort of stuff , is , uh is the bigger deal . grad d: yeah . professor b: i think that 's where we have to get technically clever . grad a: we could just steal the classes in javabayes and then interface to them with our own code . grad d: um professor b: well , i me ye eh , yeah , the grad d: that requires understanding the classes in javabayes , i guess . @ @ . professor b: yeah , i mean , it 's , uh , e e e e e cute . i mean , you 've been around enough to i mean just ? grad a: well , it depends on professor b: i mean , there 's this huge package which which may or may not be consistent and you know . but , yeah , we could look at it . grad a: well , i was j ok . yeah . professor b: yeah . it 's b it it 's an inter sort of a kind of a it the thing is , it 's kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form , and if you say , `` hey , we 're gon na make a different kind of data structure to stick in there `` grad a: well , no , but that just means there 's a protocol , right ? that you could professor b: it may or may not . i do n't know . that 's the question is `` to what extent does it allow us to put in these g functions ? `` and i do n't know . grad a: well , no , but i mean what i uh the so you could have four different bayes - nets that you 're running , and then run your own write your own function that would take the output of those four , and make your own `` g function `` , is what i was saying . professor b: yeah , that 's fine if it 's if it comes only at the end . but suppose you want it embedded ? grad a: well , then you 'd have to break all of your bayes - nets into smaller bayes - nets , with all the professor b: oh , that yeah , that 's a truly horrible way to do d it . one would hope grad a: yeah , but i 'm just grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , you bet . but , at that point you may say , `` hey , java bayes is n't the only package in town . let 's see if there 's another package that 's , eh , more civilized about this . `` grad d: professor b: now , srini is worth talking to on this , grad d: mmm . professor b: cuz he said that he actually did hack some combining functions into but he does n't remember at least when i talked to him , he did n't remember whether it was an e an easy thing , a natural thing , or whether he had to do some violence to it to make it work . grad d: ah ! professor b: uh . but he did do it . grad d: yeah . i do n't see why the , uh , combining f functions have to be directly hacked into i mean , they 're used to create tables so we can just make our own little functions that create tables in xml . professor b: well , i say that 's one way to do it , is is to just convert it int into a into a c p t that you zip it 's blown up , and is a it 's , uh it 's huge , but it does n't require any data fitting or complication . grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . i do n't think i mean , the fact that it blown u blows up is a huge issue in the sense that i mean , ok . so say it blows up , right ? so there 's , like , the you know , ten , f ten , fifteen , uh , things . it 's gon na be like , two to the that , which is n't so bad . professor b: i i understand . i 'm just saying tha that w that was wi that was my note . the little note i sent said that . it said , `` here 's the way you 'd take the logical f g function and turn it into a cpt . `` grad d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean that the max - the evidence - combining function . so we could do that . and maybe that 's what we 'll do . but , um do n't know . so , i will , e e before next week , uh , @ @ { comment } p push push some more on on this stuff that dekai wu did , and try to understand it . uh , you 'll make a couple of more copies of the heckerman paper to give to people ? grad d: p sure . phd f: yeah , i i would like a copy , professor b: ok . grad d: ok . phd f: y y yeah . professor b: and , um phd f: ok . professor b: i think grad c: ok . and i i 'll i 'll think s through this , uh , eh getting eva vectors dynamically out of ontologies one more time because i s i i i 'm not quite sure whether we all think of the same thing or not , here . professor b: well , you and i should talk about it . grad c: yeah , uh - huh . ok . professor b: alright , great ! and , robert , thank you for coming in under he he 's been sick , robert . grad c: und . grad a: i was thinking maybe we should just cough into the microphone and see if they ca n't th see if they can handle it . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . grad e: sure . grad c: um is this , uh { disfmarker }

the meeting discussed various topics such as data collection and updates on the german parser . they discussed xml modifications and future thoughts on the ontology . additionally , object representations will include an eva vector . this can be incorporated in the database entry for a particular building or inherited from the ontology of the building type . the actual number of the inputs can create a combinatorial explosion when setting the probabilities . in any case , further to fulfilling the basic requirements ( translating the parser and the generator into english ) , the project is entirely open-ended in terms of focus of research .

what was the advantage of using noisy-ors ? </s> grad a: yeah , i think i got my mike on . ok . let 's see . professor b: ok . ami , do yours then we 'll open it and i think it 'll be enough . grad a: mmm does n't , uh it should be the other way . yeah , now it 's on . phd f: right . ok . professor b: ok . so , we all switched on ? grad a: we are all switched on , yeah . professor b: alright . anyway . so , uh , before we get started with the , uh , technical part , i just want to review what i think is happening with the our data collection . phd f: we are all switched on . professor b: so uh , probably after today , that should n't come up in this meeting . th - this this is s should be im it is n't there 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . but , uh , i just want to make sure we 're all together on this . what we think is gon na happen is that , uh , in parallel starting about now we 're gon na get fey to , where you 're working with me and robert , draft a note that we 're gon na send out to various cogsci c and other classes saying , `` here 's an opportunity to be a subject . contact fey . `` and then there 'll be a certain number of um , hours during the week which she will be available and we 'll bring in people . uh , roughly how many , robert ? we d do we know ? grad c: um , fifty was our sort of our first professor b: ok . so , we 're looking for a total of fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with with that . in parallel with that , we 're gon na need to actually do the script . and , so , i guess there 's a plan to have a meeting friday afternoon uh , with uh , jane , and maybe liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . but what i 'd like to do , if it 's o k , is to s to , as i say , start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . the week after that 's spring break , and maybe we 'll look for them some subjects next door grad c: yeah . professor b: or i grad c: yeah . also , fey will not be here during spring break . professor b: oh , ok , then we wo n't do it . grad c: so . professor b: ok . so that 's easy . um . so , is is that make sense to everybody ? grad c: yeah . also , um , f both fey and i will , um , do something of which i may , eh kindly ask you to to do the same thing , which is we gon na check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects . meaning , um , kid children 's gymnastic classes , pre - school parents and so forth . they also sometimes have flexible schedules . so , if you happen to be sort of in a non - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects we also considered using the berkeley high school and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff . professor b: that 's a good idea . grad c: and , um . so that 's as far as our brainstorming was concerned . professor b: oh , yeah . the high school 's a great idea . grad c: so . but i i will just make a first draft of the , uh , note , the `` write - up `` note , send it to you and fey and then professor b: and why do n't you also copy jane on it ? grad c: and , um , are we have we concurred that , uh , these these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ? professor b: uh , th i think they 're necessary . this the permission form . grad c: mmm . professor b: uh , there has to be one , grad c: nuh . n . professor b: and i think we 're just gon na use it as it is , and um grad c: n . you happy with that ? professor b: well , yeah . there 's one tricky part about , um , they have the right um i the last paragraph { comment } `` if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . `` ok ? now that , we had to be included for this other one which might have , uh , meetings , you know , about something . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: in this case , it does n't really make sense . um , so what i 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying `` i do n't want to see the final transcript `` . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and if they do n't if they say `` no , i 'm not willing to sign that `` , then we 'll show them the final transcript . but , um . grad c: yep . makes sense . professor b: that , uh yeah , so we might actually , um s i jane may say that , `` you know , you ca n't do this `` , uh , `` on the same form , we need a separate form . `` but anyway . i 'd i 'd i 'd like to , e e um , add an a little thi eh a thing for them to initial , saying `` nah , do i do n't want to see the final transcript . `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , uh , rec you know . and so forth . so i think we just go with it . grad c: yeah . yeah . ok . so much for the data , except that with munich everything is fine now . they 're gon na transcribe . they 're also gon na translate the , uh , german data from the tv and cinema stuff for andreas . so . they 're they all seem to be happy now , with that . so . w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ? professor b: yep . grad c: well i guess the good good news of last week was the parser . so , um bhaskara and i started working on the the parser . then bhaskara went to class and once he came back , um , it was finished . so . it , uh i did n't measure it , but it was about an hour and ten minutes . grad d: yep . grad c: and , um and now it 's we have a complete english parser that does everything the german parser does . grad d: something like that . professor b: which is not a lot . but grad d: that 's the , uh , point . grad c: the uh , that 's not a lot . professor b: ok . grad d: yes . professor b: right . grad c: and um . grad e: what did you end up having to do ? i mean , wha was there anything interesting about it at all ? grad c: well , if you , eh grad d: we 'll show you . professor b: yeah , we can show us , grad e: or are we gon na see that ? professor b: right ? grad c: well , w w we d the first we did is we we tried to to do change the the `` laufen `` into `` run `` , or `` running `` , or `` runs `` . professor b: yep . grad c: and we noticed that whatever we tried to do , it no effect . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and we were puzzled . grad e: ok . grad c: and , uh , the reason was that the parser i c completely ignores the verb . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so this sentence sentence is parses the p the same output , grad e: hmm . interesting parser property . grad c: um , even if you leave out , um , all all of this . grad e: i see . yeah . grad c: so it 's basically feature film and tv . grad e: today grad c: that 's what you need . grad e: ok . grad c: if if you 'd add add today and evening , it 'll add time or not . grad e: and the t and the time , right ? grad c: so it i it does look at that . grad e: ok . grad c: but all the rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser . grad e: true . professor b: so , you can sho you you are are you gon na show us the little templates ? grad c: and grad e: s grad c: yeah . we ar we can sh er i can show you the templates . i i also have it running here , grad e: the former end g `` oh , i see . uh - huh . grad c: so if i do this now , um , you can see that it parsed the wonderful english sentence , `` which films are on the cinema today evening ? `` but , um . professor b: well , that sounds grad c: uh do do n't worry about it . professor b: no i grad c: it could be `` this evening , which which films are on the cinema `` , or `` running in the cinema , which `` uh , `` today evening `` , uh i `` is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? `` grad e: ok . ok . key words , e basically . professor b: well grad c: ge - elaborate , or , more or less , uh professor b: actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable german orders which are n't allowable english orders and so forth . and it is order - based . so it it is n't it ? grad c: no . grad d: no . professor b: oh . so it it doe i it these u these optional elements , grad c: it is not professor b: it 's it 's actually a set , not a sequence ? grad c: yeah . we were i was afraid that , um professor b: oh ! grad e: so it really is key word matching , basically . professor b: really a se grad c: um . phd f: e yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: oh , wow . grad c: um , i mean , these sentences are just silly . grad e: hmm . grad c: i mean , uh , d these were not the ones we we actually did it . um . what 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? which films are showing ? grad d: are pl playing at the cinema ? grad c: playing ? grad d: yeah . grad e: tonight ? grad d: i changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account . grad e: this this evening ? phd f: actually , you would say , `` which films are on tonight ? `` grad d: you want to get it ? or is di was it easy to get it ? grad c: um . i have no net here . grad d: oh , ok . professor b: do i ? grad c: ok . so . wonderful parse , same thing . um . professor b: right . grad c: except that we d w we do n't have this , uh , time information here now , which is , um oh . this are the reserve . anyways . so . um . these are the sort of the ten different sentence types that the uh the parser was able to do . and it still is , now in english . professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and , um sorry . and , um you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ? grad d: yeah , i mean i changed those sentences to make it , uh , more , uh , idiomatic . and , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . so , in a sense it 's pretty broad . professor b: ok . grad c: ok . so , if you want to look at the templates , they 're conveniently located in a file , `` template `` . um , and this is what i had to do . i had to change , @ @ { comment } `` spielfilm `` to `` film `` , uh , `` film `` to `` movie `` , cinem `` kino `` to `` cinema `` to `` today `` heu `` heute `` to `` today `` , grad e: huh . grad c: evening `` abend `` to `` evening `` professor b: capitalized as well grad a: hmm . grad c: and , um . professor b: y i grad d: one thing i was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the m - three - l basically ? grad c: yep . grad d: ok . grad c: and that 's that 's the next step , professor b: p grad c: but we 'll get to that in a second . professor b: oh . grad c: and so this means , um , `` this `` and `` see `` are not optional . `` want i like `` is all maybe in there , but may also not be in there . professor b: so so , the point is , if it says `` this `` and `` see `` , it also will work in `` see `` and `` this `` ? grad e: s professor b: in the other order ? grad c: yeah . professor b: with those two key words ? grad c: should we try it ? professor b: `` this is the one i want to see `` or whatever . grad c: ok . `` action watch `` , grad d: hmm . grad c: whatever . nothing was specialfi specified . except that it has some references to audio - visual media here . grad d: av medium . grad c: where it gets that from grad d: yeah . grad c: it 's correct , but i do n't know where it gets it from . grad d: `` see `` . grad c: oh , `` see `` . yeah . yeah . yep . ok . grad d: i mean it 's sort of grad c: and `` see this `` { comment } is exactly the same thing . professor b: ok , so it is set - based . alright . grad d: one thing i was wondering was , those percentage signs , right ? so , i mean , why do we even have them ? grad c: yep . grad d: because if you did n't have them grad c: uh , i 'll tell you why . because it gives a you a score . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and the value of the score is , v i assume , i guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score it is . grad d: oh . ok . so that 's the main purpose . alright . grad e: it 's a match . phd f: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: ok . grad c: so we we should n't belittle it too much . it 's doing something , some things , and it 's very flexible . i 've just tried to grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: be nice . phd f: right . professor b: no , no . fine . grad e: right yeah . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , flexible it is . phd f: but grad c: ok . um , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . uh but we 'll mmm , that means we may need two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes , professor b: alright . grad c: i hope . grad d: right . grad c: and the next thing i would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be too difficult either , is to say , `` ok let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the the mapping of of , uh , words to the m - three - l but we also wanted to change add a new sentence type and and make up some some new m - three - l s `` professor b: yep . so that 'd be great . it would be a good exercise to just see whether one can get that to run . grad c: see th mm - hmm . yep . and , um , grad d: so , that 's grad c: that 's should n't be too tough . grad d: fine , yeah . yeah , so where are those those functions `` action `` , `` goodbye `` , and so on , right ? are they actually , um , are they going to be called ? um , are they present in the code for the parser ? grad c: yeah . i think what it does , it i i it does something sort of fancy . it loads um it has these style sheets and also the , um , schemata . so what it probably does , is it takes the , uh , um is this where it is ? this is already the xml stuff ? this is where it takes its own , um , syntax , and converts it somehow . um . where is the uh grad d: what are you looking for ? grad c: um , where it actually produces the the xml out of the , uh , parsed stuff . grad d: oh , ok . grad c: no , this is not it . uh . i ca n't find it now . you mean , where the where the act how the action `` goodbye `` maps into something grad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , where are those constructors defined ? grad d: oh . grad c: nope . grad d: no , that 's not it . grad c: yeah . this is sort of what happens . this is what you would need to to change to get the , uh , xml changed . so when it encounts encounters `` day `` , it will , uh , activate those h classes in the in the xml stuff but , um i saw those actions uh , the `` goodbye `` stuff somewhere . hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm . grad a: grep for it ? grad c: yeah . let 's do that . oh . grad d: mmm . m - three - l dot dtd ? grad c: yep . grad d: that 's just a specification for the xml format . grad c: yep . well , we 'll find that out . so whatever n this does i mean this is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ? professor b: hmm ? oh , yeah . grad c: and , um so , whenever it it encounters `` goodbye `` , which we can make it do in a second , here grad a: that function automatically generates an initialized xml structure ? grad c: i grad d: i think each of those functions act on the current xml structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a a l a field to it , or something . professor b: y yeah . they also seem to affect state , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: cause some of them there were other actions uh , that that s seemed to step state variables somewhere , grad d: right . professor b: like the n s `` discourse status confirm `` . ok . so that 's going to be a call on the discourse grad c: yep . professor b: and confirm that it 's grad c: w we mm - hmm grad d: oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree , professor b: i think that 's right . grad c: e grad d: but it 's going to change the event . professor b: i think it 's actually that looks like it 's state modification . grad d: oh . oh . grad c: e mmm um , well i there is a feature called `` discourse - status `` , grad d: when there 's a feature . professor b: yeah . grad c: and so whenever i just say , `` write `` , it will it will put this in here . professor b: oh , so it always just is it so it well , go back , then , cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the xml . grad c: h yep . professor b: uh - huh ! i 'm not i 'm not sure . grad c: so , this professor b: e i 'm not sure e that grad c: um well , we we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , `` goodbye `` , causes it to c to create basically an `` action goodbye - end - action `` . professor b: right . grad c: which is a means of telling the system to shut down . professor b: right . grad c: now , if we know that `` write `` produces a `` feature discourse - status confirm discourse - status `` . so if i now say `` write , goodbye , `` it should do that . it sho it creates this , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: `` confirm goodbye `` . professor b: yep . grad d: right there . but there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put goodbye in content , but , uh , confirm in features ? grad c: oh . it d it n that 's because grad d: so so , it 's not just that it 's adding that field . professor b: right . grad d: it 's professor b: absolutely . good point . grad d: ok . professor b: it 's it 's the it 's under what sub - type you 're doing it . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad a: it 's mystery functions . grad c: well , sometimes it m sometimes , i grad d: well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably . professor b: yeah , each is s so that 's funny . grad c: when it professor b: you bury the s the state in the function alright . grad c: it grad a: well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right ? professor b: uh grad a: so it 's just a shorthand . professor b: yeah . grad c: for example oh , this is german . sorry . e so , now , this , it can not do anymore . nothing comes out of here . grad a: a `` not a number `` is a value . awesome . grad c: so , it does n't speak german anymore , but it does speak english . and there is , here , a reference so , this tells us that whatever is has the id `` zero `` is referenced here by @ @ { comment } the restriction seed and this is exa `` i want `` what was the sentence ? professor b: `` i want two seats here . `` grad c: `` need two seats here . `` nuh . `` and where is it playing ? `` there should also be a reference to something , maybe . our d this is re um mmm . here , we change and so , we here we add something to the discourse - status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before and , uh and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema . grad a: so then , whatever takes this m - three - l is what actually changes the state , not the yeah , ok . professor b: no , right , the discourse maintainer , grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . i see . and it and it runs around looking for discourse status tags , and doing whatever it does with them . and other people ignore those tags . alright . so , yeah . i definitely think it 's it 's worth the exercise of trying to actually add something that is n't there . grad c: hmm ? professor b: uh disc grad c: sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing . professor b: yeah , a kid understanding what 's going on . then the next thing we talked about is actually , um , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that . grad c: ok . point number two . i got the , uh , m - three - l for the routes today . uh , so i got some more . this is sort of the uh , um , hmm . interesting . it 's just going up , it 's not going back down . so , this is um , what i got today is the the new um m - three - l for um , the maps , professor b: yep . grad c: uh , and with some examples so , this is the xml and this is sort of what it will look like later on , even though it you ca n't see it on on this resolution . and this is what it sort of is the the structure of map requests , um also not very interesting , and here is the more interesting stuff for us , is the routes , route elements , and , again , as we thought it 's really simple . this is sort of the , uh , um , parameters . we have @ @ { comment } simple `` from objects `` and `` to objects `` and so forth , points of interest along the way and , um , i asked them whether or not we could , um first of all , i was little bit it seemed to me that this m way of doing it is sort of a stack a step backwards from the way we 've done it before . t it seems to me that some notions were missing . professor b: s grad c: so these are these are professor b: so these are these are your friends back at eml . grad c: yep . who are doing this . professor b: so this is not a complicated negotiation . there 's there 's not seven committees , or anything , right ? grad c: no . no , this is very straightforward . professor b: great . so this is just trying to it 's a design thing , not a political thing . once we 've eh we can just sort of agree on what oughta be done . grad c: yeah . professor b: good . grad c: exactly . and , um and , uh however , the , uh e so that you understand , it is really simple . uh you you have a route , and you cut it up in different pieces . and every every element of that e r r f of that every segment we call a `` route element `` . and so , from a to b we cut up in three different steps , and every step has a `` from object `` where you start , a `` to object `` where y where you sort of end , and some points of interest along the way . what w i was sort of missing here , and uh , maybe it was just me being too stupid , is , i did n't sort of get the the notion of the global goal of the whole route . really , s was not straightforward visibly for me . and some other stuff . and i suggested that they should n be k uh , kind enough to do s two things for us , is one , um , also allocating , uh , some tags for our action schema enter - vista - approach , and and also , um , since you had suggested that that , um , we figure out if we ever , for a demo reason , wanted to shortcut directly to the g gis and the planner , of how we can do it . now , what 's the state of the art of getting to entrances , um , what 's the syntax for that , how get getting to vista points and calculating those on the spot . and the approach mode , anyhow , is the default . that 's all they do it these days . wherever you 'll find a route planner it n does nothing but get to the closest point where the street network is at minimal distance to the geometric center . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: so . professor b: so , well , let now , this is important . let , uh i want a a again , outside of m almost managerial point , um you 're in the midst of this , so you know better . but it seems to me it 's probably a good idea to li uh minimize the number of uh , change requests we make of them . so it seemed to me , what we ought to do is get our story together . ok ? and think about it some , internally , before asking them to make changes . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh . does this does this make sense to you guys ? it i mean you 're you 're doing the the interaction but it seemed to me that what we ought to do is come up with a uh , something where you , um and i i do n't know who 's mok working most closely on it . probably johno . ok . uh , take what they have , send it to everybody saying `` this is what they have , this is what we think we should add `` , ok ? and then have a d a an iteration within our group saying `` hmm , well `` ok ? and get our best idea of what we should add . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then go back to them . is i or , i do n't know does this make sense to you ? or grad c: yeah . especially if we want sort of , what i my feeling was eh we we sort of reserved something that has a r eh an ok label . that 's th that was my th first sort of step . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: i w no matter how we want to call it , this is sort of our playground . professor b: right . grad c: and if we get something in there that is a structure elaborate and and and and and complex enough to to to maybe enable a whole simulation , one of these days , that would be u the the perfect goal . professor b: right . that 's right . so . so , yeah . the problem is n't the short ra range optimization . it 's the sort of o one or two year kind of thing . ok . what are the thl class of things we think we might try to do in a year or two ? how how would we try to characterize those and what do we want to request now that 's leave enough space to do all that stuff ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: yep . professor b: and that re that requires some thought . grad c: yep . professor b: and so that sounds like a great thing to do as the priority item um , as soon as we can do it . grad c: yep . professor b: so y so you guys will send to the rest of us um a version of um , this , and the uh , description grad a: with sugge yeah , suggested improvements and professor b: well b yeah . so , the the uh not everyone uh , reads german , so if you 'd um grad a: mmm . professor b: tu uh , tur change the description to , uh , english grad a: ok . professor b: and , um , then then , yeah . then , with some sug s suggestions about where where do we go from here ? grad a: ok . professor b: uh , this and this , of course , was just the action end . uh , at some point we 're going to have to worry about the language end . but for the moment just uh , t for this class of of things , we might want to try to encompass . and grad a: then the scope of this is beyond approach and vis - or vista . yeah , yeah . professor b: oh , yeah , yeah yeah yeah . this is this is everything that that , um , you know , um we might want to do in the next couple years . grad a: yeah , yeah . so what would grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . professor b: we do n't i mean , that 's an issue . we do n't know what , entirely . grad a: uh , yeah . but i 'm just but the yeah , ok . so i just this xml stuff here just has to do with source - path - goal type stuff , in terms of traveling through heidelberg . grad c: hmm . grad a: or travel , specifically . professor b: right . grad a: so , but this o is the domain greater than that ? professor b: no . grad a: ok . professor b: i think i think the i the idea is that oh . it 's beyond source - path - goal , but i think we do n't need to get beyond it @ @ { comment } tourists in heidelberg . grad a: ok . professor b: it seems to me we can get all the complexity we want in actions and in language without going outside of tourists in heidelberg . ok ? but you know , i depending on what people are interested in , one could have , uh , tours , one could have um , explanations of why something is is , you know , why why was this done , or i mean , no there 's no end to the complexity you can build into the uh , what a tourist in heidelberg might ask . grad a: mmm . professor b: so , at least unless somebody else wants t to suggest otherwise i think the general domain we do n't have t to uh , broaden . that is , tourists in heidelberg . and if there 's something somebody comes up with that ca n't be done that way , then , sure . w we 'll we 'll look at that , but uh i 'd be s i i 'd be surprised at if there 's any important issue that that and , um i mean if if you want to uh , push us into reference problems , that would be great . phd f: ok . professor b: ok , so this is his specialty is reference , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and you know , what what are these things referring to ? not only anaphora , but , uh , more generally the , uh this whole issue of , uh , referring expressions , and , what is it that they 're actually dealing with in the world ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , again , this is li in the databa this is also pretty well formed because there is an ontology , and the database , and stuff . so it is n't like , um , you know , the evening star or stuff like that . phd f: right . professor b: i i it all the entities do have concrete reference . although th the to get at them from a language may not be trivial . phd f: right . professor b: there are n't really deep mysteries about um , what w what things the system knows about . phd f: right . right . and you have both proper names and descriptions professor b: all those things . phd f: and y and you can ask for it . professor b: yeah . you have proper names , and descriptions . grad c: mm - hmm . phd f: right . professor b: and a l and a lot and and anaphora , and pronouns , grad c: nuh . phd f: ok . right . professor b: and all those things . phd f: right . grad c: now , we hav the the whole unfortunately , the whole database is , uh , in german . we have just commissioned someone to translate some bits of it , ie the e the shortest k the the more general descriptions of all the objects and , um , persons and events . so , it 's a relational database with persons , events , and , um , objects . and it 's it 's quite , um , there . but did y i uh i think there will be great because the reference problem really is not trivial , even if you have such a g well - defined world . professor b: he knows . grad c: ah - he you are not , uh , throwing uh , uh , carrying owls to athens . grad a: could you give me an example of a reference problem ? so so l i can make it more concrete ? grad c: well how do i get to the powder - tower ? we sort of t think that our bit in this problem is interesting , but , just to get from powder - tower to an object i id in a database is also not really trivial . phd f: or or if you take something even more scary , um , `` how do i get to the third building after the tower ? the ple - powder - tower ? `` grad a: mmm . phd f: uh , you need some mechanism for professor b: yeah . or , you know , the church across from city hall , or grad a: or the re the restaurant where they wear lederhosen ? grad c: or the phd f: right . grad a: or is that professor b: yeah , that would be fine . grad a: ok . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . grad c: o or or tower , or this tower , or that building , or phd f: right . grad e: uniquely . grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . trying to professor b: or you can say `` how `` you know , `` how do i get back ? `` grad a: yeah , yeah . professor b: ok . and , again , it 's just a question of which of these things , uh , people want to dive into . what , uh , i think i 'm gon na try to do , and i guess , pwww ! let 's say that by the end of spring break , i 'll try to come up with some general story about , um , construction grammar , and what constructions we 'd use and how all this might fit together . there 's this whole framework problem that i 'm feeling really uncomfortable about . and i have n't had a chance to think about it seriously . but i i want to i want to do that early , rather than late . and you and i will probably have to talk about this some . grad c: u u u u that 's what strikes me , that we sort of the de g uh , small something , uh , maybe we should address one of these days , is to that most of the work people actually always do is look at some statements , and and analyze those . whether it 's abstracts or newspapers and stuff like this . professor b: hmm . grad c: but the whole i is it is it really relevant that we are dealing mostly with , sort of , questions ? professor b: oh , yeah ? grad c: uh , you know professor b: well , i mean yeah , i d grad c: and this is it seems to me that we should maybe at least spend a session or or brainstorm a little bit about whether that l this is special case in that sense . grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , i do n't know . you know did we ever find m metaphorical use in in questions in in that sense , really ? professor b: yeah . grad d: professor b: you will . grad c: and how soon , professor b: oh , yeah . grad c: i do n't know . professor b: i mean , uh , we could take all the standard metaphor examples and make question versions of them . ok . grad c: `` who got kicked out of france ? `` phd f: muh professor b: yeah , or , you know . `` wh - why is he why is he pushing for promotion ? `` grad c: nuh . phd f: right . professor b: or , `` who 's pushing proof `` grad c: nuh . professor b: er , just pick pick any of them and just do the eh grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so i do n't i do n't think , uh , it 's at all difficult uh , to convert them to question forms that really exist and people say all the time , um and sort of we do n't know how to handle them , too . right ? i mean , it 's i d it we do n't know how to handle the declarative forms , @ @ { comment } really , and , then , the interrogative forms , ah - oh . uh . yeah . grad d: ooo ! professor b: nancy , it looked like you were s grad e: oh . it 's just that that the goals are g very different to cases so we had this problem last year when we first thought about this domain , actually , was that most of the things we talked about are our story understanding . professor b: right . grad e: uh , we 're gon na have a short discourse and the person talking is trying to , i do n't know , give you a statement and tell you something . and here , it 's th grad c: help you create a mental model , blah - blah - blah . yeah . grad e: yea - eh y yeah , i guess so . professor b: yes . grad e: and then here , y you are j uh , the person is getting information and they or may not be following some larger plan , you know , that we have to recognize or , you know , infer . and th th the their discourse patterns probably do n't follo follow quite as many logical connec professor b: right . no , i think that 's one of things that 's interesting , is is in this sort of over - arching story we we worked it out for th as you say , this the storytelling scenario . grad e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: and i think it 's really worth thinking through what it looks like . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: what is the simspec mean , et cetera . grad e: mm - hmm . m right . cuz for a while we were thinking , `` well , how can we change the , um , data to sort of illicit tha illicit , um , actions that are more like what we are used to ? `` but obviously we would rather , you know , try to figure out what 's what 's , you know professor b: well , i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe that 's what we 'll do is is s u e we can do anything we want with it . i mean , once we have fulfilled these requirements , grad e: yep . mmm mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: ok , and the one for next uh , summer is just half done and then the other half is this , um , `` generation thing `` which we think is n't much different . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so once that 's done , then all the rest of it is , uh , sort of , you know , what we want to do for the research . and we can w we can do all sorts of things that do n't fit into their framework at all . th - there 's no reason why we 're c we 're constrained to do that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: if we can use all the , uh , execution engines , then we can , you know , really try things that would be too too much pain to do ourselves . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but there 's no obligation on any of this . so , if we want to turn it into u understan standing stories about heidelberg , we can do that . i mean , that would just be a t a um grad c: or , as a matter of fact , we need and if we if we ' r eh take a ten year perspective , we need to do that , because w e w a assuming we have this , um , we we ta in that case we actually do have these wonderful stories , and historical anecdotes , professor b: yeah . grad c: and knights jumping out of windows , grad e: mmm . grad c: and - and - and { comment } { comment } tons of stuff . so , th the database is huge , and if we want to answer a question on that , we actually have to go one step before that , and understand that . in order to e do sensible information extraction . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: you might , yeah . grad c: and so , um , this has been a a a deep map research issue that was is is part of the unresolved , and to - do 's , and something for the future , is how can we sort of run our our text , our content , through a machine that will enable us , later , to retrieve or answer e questions more sensibly ? phd f: mwa mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . mmm . professor b: right . anyway . s who 's going ? phd f: so , uh so , uh , i was just going to ask , um , so , what is the the basic thing that that you are , um , obligated to do , um , uh , by the summer before w uh y c we can move professor b: ah ! ok . so eh yeah . so , what happened is , there 's this , eh , uh robert was describing the there 's two packages there 's a , uh , quote parser , there 's a particular piece of this big system , which , in german , uh , takes these t sentence templates and produces xml structures . and one of our jobs was to make the english equivalent of that . phd f: right . professor b: that , these guys did in a in a day . phd f: right . right . professor b: the other thing is , at the other end , roughly at the same level , there 's something that takes , uh , x m l structures , produces an output xml structure which is instructions for the generator . phd f: right . professor b: ok ? and then there 's a language generator , and then after that a s a synthesizer that goes from an xml structure to , uh , language generation , to actual specifications for a synthesizer . eh , but again , there 's one module in which there 's one piece that we have to convert to english . phd f: right . right . got it . professor b: is that ok . and that but as i say , this is all along was viewed as a kind of a m a minor thing , necessary , but but not phd f: right . professor b: ok ? phd f: right . professor b: and much more interesting is the fact that , as part of doing this , we we are , you know , inheriting this system that does all sort of these other things . phd f: that 's great ! right . professor b: not precisely what we want , and that 's that 's wh where it it gets difficult . and i i do n't pretend to understand yet what i think we really ought to do . grad c: ok . so , e enough of that , but i , uh , um , mmm , the e sort of , johno and i will take up that responsibility , and , um , get a first draft of that . now , we have um just , i think two more short things . professor b: ok . grad c: um , y you guys sort of started fighting , uh , on the bayes - net `` noisy - or `` front ? grad d: hmm . yeah , i thought i should , um , talk a little bit about that , because that might be a good , uh , sort of architecture to have , in general for , uh , problems with , you know , multiple inputs to a node . professor b: good ! ok . good . and what 's the other one ? so that just we know what the d agenda is ? grad c: um , the wu paper , i think maybe professor b: oh , yeah . i 've got a couple new wu papers as well . uh , so i i 've been in contact with wu , so , probably let 's put that off till i i till i understand better , uh , what he 's doing . it 's just a little embarrassing cause all this was in his thesis and i was on his thesis committee , and , so , i r really knew this at one time . phd f: ugh . professor b: but , i i it 's not only uh is part of what i have n't figured out yet is is how all this goes together . so i 'll dig up some more stuff from dekai . and so why do n't we just do the , uh grad d: ok . so should i is there a white board here that i can use ? professor b: yeah . you could grad d: uh grad e: yeah . professor b: squealing sound ? grad d: or shall i just use this ? professor b: it 's probably just as easy . i phd f: yeah . grad d: yeah . grad a: you can put the microphone in your pocket . grad d: hey ! grad a: i was envying you and your pocket cause i do n't have one . grad e: it was a quick one , huh ? professor b: that 's why they invented `` pocket t 's `` . grad a: exactly grad e: they have clips ! grad d: yeah . grad e: huh . grad d: so , um recall that , uh , we want to have this kind of structure in our bayes - nets . namely , that , um you have these nodes that have several bands , right ? so does i mean , they sort of the typical example is that , um , these are all a bunch of cues for something , and this is a certain effect that we 'd like to conclude . so , uh like , let 's just look at the case when , um , this is actually the the final action , right ? so this is like , uh , you know , touch , grad c: y grad d: or grad c: e - eva grad d: sorry . uh grad c: grad d: yeah , e - eva , right ? grad c: yeah . grad d: enter , v view , approach , right ? phd f: w what was this ? it i i i ehhh , { comment } i ehhh . professor b: wri - write it out for for grad d: so , this is yeah . enter , phd f: i mean grad d: view , approach . phd f: ok . right . grad d: right . so , i mean , we 'd like to take all these various cues , right ? phd f: like the army . grad d: so this one might be , say , uh grad e: new terminology ? phd f: yeah . grad c: hmm ? grad d: well , let me pick a random one grad e: i have n't heard that before . grad d: and say , uh i do n't know , it could be , like this is n't the way it really is , but let me say that , suppose someone mentioned , uh , admission fees ah , it takes too long . try let me just say `` landmark `` . if the thing is a landmark , you know , um then there 's another thing that says if um if it 's closed or not , at the moment . alright , so you have nodes . right ? and the , uh , problem that we were having was that , you know , given n - nodes , there 's `` two to the n `` given n - nodes , and furthermore , the fact that there 's three things here , we need to specify `` three times `` , uh , `` two to the n `` probabilities . right ? that 's assuming these are all binary , which f they may not be . for example , they could be `` time of day `` , in which case we could , uh , say , you know , `` morning , afternoon , evening , night `` . so , this could be more so , it 's a lot , anyway . and , that 's a lot of probabilities to put here , which is kind of a pain . so noisy - ors are a way to , uh , sort of deal with this . um where should i put this ? so , the idea is that , um , let 's call these , uh , c - one , c - two , c - three , and c - four , and e , for cause and effect , i guess . the idea is to have these intermediate nodes . right . well , actually , the idea , first of all , is that each of these things has a quote - unquote distinguished state , which means that this is the state in which we do n't really know anything about it . so right ? so , for example , if we do n't really know if the thing is a landmark or not , or , i if that just does n't seem relevant , then that would be th sort of the disting - the distinguish state . it 's a really , you know , if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee , you know , if they did n't talk about it , that would be the distinguish state . grad c: s so , this is a fanciful way of saying `` default `` ? grad d: so yeah , yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: that 's just what they the word they used in that paper . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so , the idea is that , um , you have these intermediate nodes , right ? e - one , e - two , e - three and e - four ? professor b: so , this is the heckerman paper you 're working with ? good . grad d: yeah . so the idea is that , each of these ei is represents what this would be if all the other ones were in the distinguish state . right ? so , for example , suppose that the person i mean , suppose the thing that they talked about is a landmark . but none of the other sort of cues really apply . then , this would be w the this would just represent the probability distribution of this , assuming that this cue is turned on and the other ones just did n't apply ? so , you know , if it is a landmark , and no none of the other things really ap applicable , then this would represent the probability distribution . so maybe in this case maybe we just t k maybe we decide that , if the thing 's a landmark and we do n't know anything else , then we 're gon na conclude that , um they want to view it with probability , you know , point four . they want to enter it with probability , uh with probability point five and they want to approach it probability point one , say right ? so we come up with these l little tables for each of those ok . and the final thing is that , um this is a deterministic function of these , so we do n't need to specify any probabilities . we just have to , um , say what function this is , right ? so we can let this be , um g of e - one comma e - two . e - three , e - four . right ? and our example g would be , um , a majority vote ? right ? professor b: well . ok , so th so the important point is w not what the g function is . the important point is that um there is a a a general kind of idea of shortcutting the full cpt . th - c the full conditional probability table with some function . ok ? which y w you choose appropriately for each case . so , depending on what your situation is , there are different functions which are most appropriate . and so i gave eh bhaskara a copy of this , eh sort of `` ninety - two `` { comment } paper . d and you got one , robert . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: i do n't know who else has seen it . grad d: there 's i mean yeah . it 's heckerman and breese . professor b: it 's short . it 's short . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , i u w um , yo uh you have you read it yet ? grad d: uh , you can yeah , you should take a look at it , i guess . grad a: ok professor b: ok , so you should take a look . nancy , i 'm sure you read it at some point in life . grad e: i yeah . i i think so , yeah . professor b: ok . and so , you other guys can decide how interested grad e: yeah , @ @ . professor b: anyway . so the paper is n't th is n't real hard . phd f: ok . professor b: and uh one of the questions just come at bhaskara is , `` how much of this does javabayes support ? `` grad d: yeah , it 's a good question . um the so what we want , is basically javabayes to support deterministic , uh , functions . professor b: right . grad d: and , um in a sense it sup we can make it supported by , um , manually , uh , entering , you know , probabilities that are one and zeros , right ? professor b: right . so the little handout that the little thing that i sent i sent a message saying , uh , here is a way to take one thing you could do , which is kind of s in a way , stupid , is take this deterministic function , and use it to build the cpt . so , if ba - javabayes wo n't do it for you , grad c: mmm . professor b: that you can convert all that into what the cpt would be . um and , what i sent out about a week ago , was an idea of how to do that , for , um , evidence combination . so one of one function that you could use as your `` g function `` is an e e evidence - combining . so you just take the uh , if each of th if each of the ones has its own little table like that , then you could take the , uh , strength of each of those , times its little table , and you 'd add up the total evidence for `` v `` , `` e `` , and `` a `` . grad d: mmm . i do n't think you can do this , because g is a function from that to that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: yep . right . grad d: right ? so there 's no numbers . there 's just quadruplets of well , n - duplets of , uh , e vs . professor b: i i i no , no but i 'm saying is there there is a w i mean , if y if if you decide what 's what is appropriate , is probablistic evidence combination , you can write a function that does it . it 's a pui it 's actually one of the examples he 's got in there . but , anyway , s skipping skipping the question of exactly which functions now is it clear that you might like to be able to shortcut the whole conditional probability table . grad c: i mean , in some it seems very plausible in some sense , where we will be likely to not be observe some of the stuff . cuz we do n't have the a access to the information . grad d: oops , { comment } sorry . professor b: right . that 's one of the problems , is , w is is , where would th where would it all come from ? grad c: yeah . so . grad d: is oh , right . w would not be ab able to observe grad e: mmm . grad d: what ? grad c: i if it 's a a a discar discourse initial phrase , we will have nothing in the discourse history . so , if if we ever want to wonder what was mention grad d: oh oh . a are you saying that we 'll not be able to observe certain nodes ? that 's fine . that is sort of orthogonal thing . professor b: yeah , so there 's there 's two separate things , robert . the f the the the bayes - nets in general are quite good at saying , `` if you have no current information about this variable just take the prior for that . `` ok ? th - that 's what they 're real good at . so , if you do n't have any information about the discourse , you just use your priors of of whatever eh the discourse uh , eh , basically whatever w it 's probabilistically , whatever it would be . and it 's it 's sort of not a great estimate , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's the best one you have , and , so forth . so that , they 're good at . but the other problem is , how do you fill in all these numbers ? and i think that 's the one he was getting at . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah . so , specifically in this case you have to f have this many numbers , grad e: yeah . grad d: whereas in this case you just have to have three for this , three for this , three for this . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so you have to have just three n ? so , this is much smaller than that . grad a: asymptotically . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: well , pretty quickly . grad d: yeah . right . grad a: u yeah , yeah . professor b: i mean grad e: so , you do n't need da data enough to cover uh , nearly as much stuff . grad d: i do n't know . grad a: so , really , i what a a noisy - or seems to kind of `` neural - net - acize `` these bayes - nets ? professor b: eh well to some no , no . so , `` noisy - or `` is a funny way of referring to this , because the noisy - or is only one instance . grad d: yeah . this is n't a noisy - or anymore . professor b: that one actually is n't a noisy - or . so we 'll have to think of of a way t t grad a: yeah . grad d: it 's a noisy - arg - max or a noisy - whatever . professor b: yeah , whatever . yeah . so eh { comment } um grad a: well , my point was more that we just eh with the neural net , right , eh , things come in , you have a function that combines them and professor b: yeah , it it tha - that 's true . it is a is also more neural - net - like , although uh , it is n't necessarily sum uh , s you know , sum of weights or anything like that . grad a: right . professor b: i mean i you could have , uh , like the noisy - or function , really is one that 's essentially says , uh , take the max . grad d: well , the `` or `` . professor b: same . grad d: right . i guess you 're right . yeah . professor b: uh but anyway . so and , i thi i think that 's the standard way people get around the uh there are a couple other ones . there are ways of breaking this up into s to to subnets and stuff like that . but , um the i think we definitely i think it 's a great idea tha to to pursue that . grad d: yep . so grad c: wha - still sort of leaves one question . it i mean you you can always uh see easily that that i 'm not grasping everything correctly , but what seemed attractive to me in im uh in the last discussion we had , was that we find out a means of of getting these point four , point five , point one , of c - four , not because , you know , a is a landmark or not , but we we we label this whatever object type , and if it 's a garden , it 's point three , point four , point two . if it 's a castle , it 's point eight , point one , point one . if it 's , uh , a town hall , it 's point two , point three , point five . professor b: right . grad c: and so forth . and we do n't want to write this down necessarily every time for something but , uh let 's see . grad d: it 'll be students where else would it be stored ? that 's the question . grad c: well , in the beginning , we 'll write up a flat file . professor b: oh . grad c: we know we have twenty object types professor b: yeah . grad c: and we 'll write it down in a flat file . professor b: no . so , i is well , let me say something , guys , cuz there 's not there 's a pretty point about this we might as well get in right now . which is the hierarchy that s comes with the ontology is just what you want for this . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so that uh , if you know about it let 's say , a particular town hall that , it 's one that is a monument , then , that would be stored there . if you do n't , you look up the hierarchy , eh so , you you you may or so , then you 'd have this little vector of , um , you know , approach mode or eva mode . let 's ok , so we have the eva vector for for various kinds of landmarks . if you know it for a specific landmark you put it there . if you do n't , you just go up the hierarchy to the first place you find one . grad d: ok . so , is the idea to put it in the ontology ? professor b: absolutely . grad d: ok . professor b: uh , or , link to or but but in any case i view it logically as being in the ontology . it 's part of what you know about a an object , is its eva vector . grad d: ok . professor b: and , if yo as i say , if you know about a specific object , you put it there . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: this is part of what dekai was doing . so , when we get to wu , the - e we 'll see w what he says about that . grad d: right . professor b: and , then if you if it is n't there , it 's higher , and if you do n't know anything except that it 's a b it 's it 's a building , then up at the highest thing , you have the pr what amounts to a prior . if you do n't know anything else about a building , uh , you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level , grad d: right . professor b: which might be equal , or whatever it is . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , that 's a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology . and it seems to me the obvious thing to do , unless we find a reason to do something different . grad d: yeah . professor b: does this make sense to you ? grad d: so professor b: bhask - ? grad d: yeah . so , we are but we we 're not doing the ontology , so we have to get to whoever is doing the u ultimately , professor b: indeed . so , that 's another thing we 're gon na need to do , is is , to , either grad d: we have to get them to professor b: we 're gon na need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology , or add fields , or { comment } { comment } some way to associate or , w it may be that all we can do is , um , some of our own hash tables that it th - the th you know , there 's always a way to do that . it 's a just a question of grad a: yeah , hash on object name to , you know , uh , the probabilities or whatever . professor b: i th yeah . e right . and , so , i uh grad c: but it 's , uh well , it strikes me as a what for if we get the mechanism , that will be sort of the wonderful part . and then , how to make it work is is the second part , in the sense that i mean , m the guy who was doing the ontology eh , eh , s ap apologized that i it will take him another through two to three days because they 're having really trouble getting the upper level straight , and right now . the reason is , given the craw bet uh , the the the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and , on all history , they 're really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the eml projects , and that 's , uh , uh , sort of a tough cookie , a little bit tougher than they figured . i could have told them s so . professor b: right . yeah . grad c: uh . but , nevertheless , it 's going to be there by n by , uh , next monday and i will show you what 's what some examples from that for towers , and stuff . and , um , what i do n't think is ever going to be in the ontology , is sort of , you know , the likelihood of , eh , people entering r town halls , and looking at town halls , and approaching town halls , especially since we are b dealing with a case - based , not an instance - based ontology . so , there will be nothing on on that town hall , or on the berkeley town hall , or on the heidelberg town hall , it 'll just be information on town halls . professor b: well , they they they how ar what are they gon na do with instances ? grad c: but what professor b: i mean , you y grad c: well , that 's hhh . that 's that 's al different question . i mean , th the first , they had to make a design question , `` do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not , that just has the types ? `` professor b: ok . grad c: and , so , since the d decision was on types , on a d simply type - based , we now have to hook it up to instances . i mean this is professor b: but what i what is smartkom gon na do about that ? grad c: one professor b: cuz , they have instances all the time . grad c: yeah , but the ontology is really not a smartkom thing , in in and of itself . that 's more something that i kicked loose in in eml . so it 's a completely eml thing . professor b: but uh uh smartkom 's gon na need an ontology . grad c: yes , u a w a lot of people are aware of that . professor b: i understand , but is anybody doing anything about it ? grad c: um professor b: ok . it 's a political problem . we wo n't worry about it . grad c: no , but th the r eh i th i still think that there is enough information in there . for example , whether ok . so , th it will know about the twenty object types there are in the world . let 's assume there are only twenty object types in this world . and it will know if any of those have institutional meanings . so , in a sense , `` i `` used as institutions for some s in some sense or the other . which makes them enterable . right ? in a sense . professor b: yeah . anyway . so we may have to grad c: you know . professor b: this is with the whole thing , grad c: yep . professor b: we may have to build another data stru grad c: yep . professor b: conceptually , we know what should be done . when we see what people have done , it may turn out that the easiest thing to do is to build a a separate thing that that just pools i i like , i i it it may be , that , the the instance w that we have to build our own instance , uh , things , that , with their types , grad d: yeah , it 's right , we can just assume professor b: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type . so we build a little data structure and so what we would do in that case , is , in our instance gadget have our e v and if we d there is n't one we 'd get the type and then have the e v as for the type . so we 'd have our own little , uh , eva tree . and then , for other , uh , vectors that we need . grad d: yeah . right . professor b: so , we 'd have our own little things so that whenever we needed one , we 'd just use the ontology to get the type , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: and then would hash or whatever we do to say , `` ah ! grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: if it 's that type of thing , and we want its eva vector , pppt - pppt ! { comment } it 's that . `` so , i i think we can handle that . and then but , the combination functions , and whether we can put those in java bayes , and all that sort of stuff , is , uh is the bigger deal . grad d: yeah . professor b: i think that 's where we have to get technically clever . grad a: we could just steal the classes in javabayes and then interface to them with our own code . grad d: um professor b: well , i me ye eh , yeah , the grad d: that requires understanding the classes in javabayes , i guess . @ @ . professor b: yeah , i mean , it 's , uh , e e e e e cute . i mean , you 've been around enough to i mean just ? grad a: well , it depends on professor b: i mean , there 's this huge package which which may or may not be consistent and you know . but , yeah , we could look at it . grad a: well , i was j ok . yeah . professor b: yeah . it 's b it it 's an inter sort of a kind of a it the thing is , it 's kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form , and if you say , `` hey , we 're gon na make a different kind of data structure to stick in there `` grad a: well , no , but that just means there 's a protocol , right ? that you could professor b: it may or may not . i do n't know . that 's the question is `` to what extent does it allow us to put in these g functions ? `` and i do n't know . grad a: well , no , but i mean what i uh the so you could have four different bayes - nets that you 're running , and then run your own write your own function that would take the output of those four , and make your own `` g function `` , is what i was saying . professor b: yeah , that 's fine if it 's if it comes only at the end . but suppose you want it embedded ? grad a: well , then you 'd have to break all of your bayes - nets into smaller bayes - nets , with all the professor b: oh , that yeah , that 's a truly horrible way to do d it . one would hope grad a: yeah , but i 'm just grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , you bet . but , at that point you may say , `` hey , java bayes is n't the only package in town . let 's see if there 's another package that 's , eh , more civilized about this . `` grad d: professor b: now , srini is worth talking to on this , grad d: mmm . professor b: cuz he said that he actually did hack some combining functions into but he does n't remember at least when i talked to him , he did n't remember whether it was an e an easy thing , a natural thing , or whether he had to do some violence to it to make it work . grad d: ah ! professor b: uh . but he did do it . grad d: yeah . i do n't see why the , uh , combining f functions have to be directly hacked into i mean , they 're used to create tables so we can just make our own little functions that create tables in xml . professor b: well , i say that 's one way to do it , is is to just convert it int into a into a c p t that you zip it 's blown up , and is a it 's , uh it 's huge , but it does n't require any data fitting or complication . grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . i do n't think i mean , the fact that it blown u blows up is a huge issue in the sense that i mean , ok . so say it blows up , right ? so there 's , like , the you know , ten , f ten , fifteen , uh , things . it 's gon na be like , two to the that , which is n't so bad . professor b: i i understand . i 'm just saying tha that w that was wi that was my note . the little note i sent said that . it said , `` here 's the way you 'd take the logical f g function and turn it into a cpt . `` grad d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean that the max - the evidence - combining function . so we could do that . and maybe that 's what we 'll do . but , um do n't know . so , i will , e e before next week , uh , @ @ { comment } p push push some more on on this stuff that dekai wu did , and try to understand it . uh , you 'll make a couple of more copies of the heckerman paper to give to people ? grad d: p sure . phd f: yeah , i i would like a copy , professor b: ok . grad d: ok . phd f: y y yeah . professor b: and , um phd f: ok . professor b: i think grad c: ok . and i i 'll i 'll think s through this , uh , eh getting eva vectors dynamically out of ontologies one more time because i s i i i 'm not quite sure whether we all think of the same thing or not , here . professor b: well , you and i should talk about it . grad c: yeah , uh - huh . ok . professor b: alright , great ! and , robert , thank you for coming in under he he 's been sick , robert . grad c: und . grad a: i was thinking maybe we should just cough into the microphone and see if they ca n't th see if they can handle it . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . grad e: sure . grad c: um is this , uh { disfmarker }

the actual number of the inputs in the bayes-net can create a combinatorial explosion when setting the probabilities . noisy-or 's can help avoid this by simplifying the probability tables and applying a deterministic function to produce their complete version .

what was suggested to incorporate the eva into the bayes-net ? </s> grad a: yeah , i think i got my mike on . ok . let 's see . professor b: ok . ami , do yours then we 'll open it and i think it 'll be enough . grad a: mmm does n't , uh it should be the other way . yeah , now it 's on . phd f: right . ok . professor b: ok . so , we all switched on ? grad a: we are all switched on , yeah . professor b: alright . anyway . so , uh , before we get started with the , uh , technical part , i just want to review what i think is happening with the our data collection . phd f: we are all switched on . professor b: so uh , probably after today , that should n't come up in this meeting . th - this this is s should be im it is n't there 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . but , uh , i just want to make sure we 're all together on this . what we think is gon na happen is that , uh , in parallel starting about now we 're gon na get fey to , where you 're working with me and robert , draft a note that we 're gon na send out to various cogsci c and other classes saying , `` here 's an opportunity to be a subject . contact fey . `` and then there 'll be a certain number of um , hours during the week which she will be available and we 'll bring in people . uh , roughly how many , robert ? we d do we know ? grad c: um , fifty was our sort of our first professor b: ok . so , we 're looking for a total of fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with with that . in parallel with that , we 're gon na need to actually do the script . and , so , i guess there 's a plan to have a meeting friday afternoon uh , with uh , jane , and maybe liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . but what i 'd like to do , if it 's o k , is to s to , as i say , start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . the week after that 's spring break , and maybe we 'll look for them some subjects next door grad c: yeah . professor b: or i grad c: yeah . also , fey will not be here during spring break . professor b: oh , ok , then we wo n't do it . grad c: so . professor b: ok . so that 's easy . um . so , is is that make sense to everybody ? grad c: yeah . also , um , f both fey and i will , um , do something of which i may , eh kindly ask you to to do the same thing , which is we gon na check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects . meaning , um , kid children 's gymnastic classes , pre - school parents and so forth . they also sometimes have flexible schedules . so , if you happen to be sort of in a non - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects we also considered using the berkeley high school and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff . professor b: that 's a good idea . grad c: and , um . so that 's as far as our brainstorming was concerned . professor b: oh , yeah . the high school 's a great idea . grad c: so . but i i will just make a first draft of the , uh , note , the `` write - up `` note , send it to you and fey and then professor b: and why do n't you also copy jane on it ? grad c: and , um , are we have we concurred that , uh , these these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ? professor b: uh , th i think they 're necessary . this the permission form . grad c: mmm . professor b: uh , there has to be one , grad c: nuh . n . professor b: and i think we 're just gon na use it as it is , and um grad c: n . you happy with that ? professor b: well , yeah . there 's one tricky part about , um , they have the right um i the last paragraph { comment } `` if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . `` ok ? now that , we had to be included for this other one which might have , uh , meetings , you know , about something . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: in this case , it does n't really make sense . um , so what i 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying `` i do n't want to see the final transcript `` . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and if they do n't if they say `` no , i 'm not willing to sign that `` , then we 'll show them the final transcript . but , um . grad c: yep . makes sense . professor b: that , uh yeah , so we might actually , um s i jane may say that , `` you know , you ca n't do this `` , uh , `` on the same form , we need a separate form . `` but anyway . i 'd i 'd i 'd like to , e e um , add an a little thi eh a thing for them to initial , saying `` nah , do i do n't want to see the final transcript . `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , uh , rec you know . and so forth . so i think we just go with it . grad c: yeah . yeah . ok . so much for the data , except that with munich everything is fine now . they 're gon na transcribe . they 're also gon na translate the , uh , german data from the tv and cinema stuff for andreas . so . they 're they all seem to be happy now , with that . so . w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ? professor b: yep . grad c: well i guess the good good news of last week was the parser . so , um bhaskara and i started working on the the parser . then bhaskara went to class and once he came back , um , it was finished . so . it , uh i did n't measure it , but it was about an hour and ten minutes . grad d: yep . grad c: and , um and now it 's we have a complete english parser that does everything the german parser does . grad d: something like that . professor b: which is not a lot . but grad d: that 's the , uh , point . grad c: the uh , that 's not a lot . professor b: ok . grad d: yes . professor b: right . grad c: and um . grad e: what did you end up having to do ? i mean , wha was there anything interesting about it at all ? grad c: well , if you , eh grad d: we 'll show you . professor b: yeah , we can show us , grad e: or are we gon na see that ? professor b: right ? grad c: well , w w we d the first we did is we we tried to to do change the the `` laufen `` into `` run `` , or `` running `` , or `` runs `` . professor b: yep . grad c: and we noticed that whatever we tried to do , it no effect . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and we were puzzled . grad e: ok . grad c: and , uh , the reason was that the parser i c completely ignores the verb . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so this sentence sentence is parses the p the same output , grad e: hmm . interesting parser property . grad c: um , even if you leave out , um , all all of this . grad e: i see . yeah . grad c: so it 's basically feature film and tv . grad e: today grad c: that 's what you need . grad e: ok . grad c: if if you 'd add add today and evening , it 'll add time or not . grad e: and the t and the time , right ? grad c: so it i it does look at that . grad e: ok . grad c: but all the rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser . grad e: true . professor b: so , you can sho you you are are you gon na show us the little templates ? grad c: and grad e: s grad c: yeah . we ar we can sh er i can show you the templates . i i also have it running here , grad e: the former end g `` oh , i see . uh - huh . grad c: so if i do this now , um , you can see that it parsed the wonderful english sentence , `` which films are on the cinema today evening ? `` but , um . professor b: well , that sounds grad c: uh do do n't worry about it . professor b: no i grad c: it could be `` this evening , which which films are on the cinema `` , or `` running in the cinema , which `` uh , `` today evening `` , uh i `` is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? `` grad e: ok . ok . key words , e basically . professor b: well grad c: ge - elaborate , or , more or less , uh professor b: actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable german orders which are n't allowable english orders and so forth . and it is order - based . so it it is n't it ? grad c: no . grad d: no . professor b: oh . so it it doe i it these u these optional elements , grad c: it is not professor b: it 's it 's actually a set , not a sequence ? grad c: yeah . we were i was afraid that , um professor b: oh ! grad e: so it really is key word matching , basically . professor b: really a se grad c: um . phd f: e yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: oh , wow . grad c: um , i mean , these sentences are just silly . grad e: hmm . grad c: i mean , uh , d these were not the ones we we actually did it . um . what 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? which films are showing ? grad d: are pl playing at the cinema ? grad c: playing ? grad d: yeah . grad e: tonight ? grad d: i changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account . grad e: this this evening ? phd f: actually , you would say , `` which films are on tonight ? `` grad d: you want to get it ? or is di was it easy to get it ? grad c: um . i have no net here . grad d: oh , ok . professor b: do i ? grad c: ok . so . wonderful parse , same thing . um . professor b: right . grad c: except that we d w we do n't have this , uh , time information here now , which is , um oh . this are the reserve . anyways . so . um . these are the sort of the ten different sentence types that the uh the parser was able to do . and it still is , now in english . professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and , um sorry . and , um you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ? grad d: yeah , i mean i changed those sentences to make it , uh , more , uh , idiomatic . and , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . so , in a sense it 's pretty broad . professor b: ok . grad c: ok . so , if you want to look at the templates , they 're conveniently located in a file , `` template `` . um , and this is what i had to do . i had to change , @ @ { comment } `` spielfilm `` to `` film `` , uh , `` film `` to `` movie `` , cinem `` kino `` to `` cinema `` to `` today `` heu `` heute `` to `` today `` , grad e: huh . grad c: evening `` abend `` to `` evening `` professor b: capitalized as well grad a: hmm . grad c: and , um . professor b: y i grad d: one thing i was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the m - three - l basically ? grad c: yep . grad d: ok . grad c: and that 's that 's the next step , professor b: p grad c: but we 'll get to that in a second . professor b: oh . grad c: and so this means , um , `` this `` and `` see `` are not optional . `` want i like `` is all maybe in there , but may also not be in there . professor b: so so , the point is , if it says `` this `` and `` see `` , it also will work in `` see `` and `` this `` ? grad e: s professor b: in the other order ? grad c: yeah . professor b: with those two key words ? grad c: should we try it ? professor b: `` this is the one i want to see `` or whatever . grad c: ok . `` action watch `` , grad d: hmm . grad c: whatever . nothing was specialfi specified . except that it has some references to audio - visual media here . grad d: av medium . grad c: where it gets that from grad d: yeah . grad c: it 's correct , but i do n't know where it gets it from . grad d: `` see `` . grad c: oh , `` see `` . yeah . yeah . yep . ok . grad d: i mean it 's sort of grad c: and `` see this `` { comment } is exactly the same thing . professor b: ok , so it is set - based . alright . grad d: one thing i was wondering was , those percentage signs , right ? so , i mean , why do we even have them ? grad c: yep . grad d: because if you did n't have them grad c: uh , i 'll tell you why . because it gives a you a score . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and the value of the score is , v i assume , i guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score it is . grad d: oh . ok . so that 's the main purpose . alright . grad e: it 's a match . phd f: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: ok . grad c: so we we should n't belittle it too much . it 's doing something , some things , and it 's very flexible . i 've just tried to grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: be nice . phd f: right . professor b: no , no . fine . grad e: right yeah . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , flexible it is . phd f: but grad c: ok . um , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . uh but we 'll mmm , that means we may need two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes , professor b: alright . grad c: i hope . grad d: right . grad c: and the next thing i would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be too difficult either , is to say , `` ok let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the the mapping of of , uh , words to the m - three - l but we also wanted to change add a new sentence type and and make up some some new m - three - l s `` professor b: yep . so that 'd be great . it would be a good exercise to just see whether one can get that to run . grad c: see th mm - hmm . yep . and , um , grad d: so , that 's grad c: that 's should n't be too tough . grad d: fine , yeah . yeah , so where are those those functions `` action `` , `` goodbye `` , and so on , right ? are they actually , um , are they going to be called ? um , are they present in the code for the parser ? grad c: yeah . i think what it does , it i i it does something sort of fancy . it loads um it has these style sheets and also the , um , schemata . so what it probably does , is it takes the , uh , um is this where it is ? this is already the xml stuff ? this is where it takes its own , um , syntax , and converts it somehow . um . where is the uh grad d: what are you looking for ? grad c: um , where it actually produces the the xml out of the , uh , parsed stuff . grad d: oh , ok . grad c: no , this is not it . uh . i ca n't find it now . you mean , where the where the act how the action `` goodbye `` maps into something grad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , where are those constructors defined ? grad d: oh . grad c: nope . grad d: no , that 's not it . grad c: yeah . this is sort of what happens . this is what you would need to to change to get the , uh , xml changed . so when it encounts encounters `` day `` , it will , uh , activate those h classes in the in the xml stuff but , um i saw those actions uh , the `` goodbye `` stuff somewhere . hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm . grad a: grep for it ? grad c: yeah . let 's do that . oh . grad d: mmm . m - three - l dot dtd ? grad c: yep . grad d: that 's just a specification for the xml format . grad c: yep . well , we 'll find that out . so whatever n this does i mean this is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ? professor b: hmm ? oh , yeah . grad c: and , um so , whenever it it encounters `` goodbye `` , which we can make it do in a second , here grad a: that function automatically generates an initialized xml structure ? grad c: i grad d: i think each of those functions act on the current xml structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a a l a field to it , or something . professor b: y yeah . they also seem to affect state , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: cause some of them there were other actions uh , that that s seemed to step state variables somewhere , grad d: right . professor b: like the n s `` discourse status confirm `` . ok . so that 's going to be a call on the discourse grad c: yep . professor b: and confirm that it 's grad c: w we mm - hmm grad d: oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree , professor b: i think that 's right . grad c: e grad d: but it 's going to change the event . professor b: i think it 's actually that looks like it 's state modification . grad d: oh . oh . grad c: e mmm um , well i there is a feature called `` discourse - status `` , grad d: when there 's a feature . professor b: yeah . grad c: and so whenever i just say , `` write `` , it will it will put this in here . professor b: oh , so it always just is it so it well , go back , then , cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the xml . grad c: h yep . professor b: uh - huh ! i 'm not i 'm not sure . grad c: so , this professor b: e i 'm not sure e that grad c: um well , we we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , `` goodbye `` , causes it to c to create basically an `` action goodbye - end - action `` . professor b: right . grad c: which is a means of telling the system to shut down . professor b: right . grad c: now , if we know that `` write `` produces a `` feature discourse - status confirm discourse - status `` . so if i now say `` write , goodbye , `` it should do that . it sho it creates this , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: `` confirm goodbye `` . professor b: yep . grad d: right there . but there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put goodbye in content , but , uh , confirm in features ? grad c: oh . it d it n that 's because grad d: so so , it 's not just that it 's adding that field . professor b: right . grad d: it 's professor b: absolutely . good point . grad d: ok . professor b: it 's it 's the it 's under what sub - type you 're doing it . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad a: it 's mystery functions . grad c: well , sometimes it m sometimes , i grad d: well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably . professor b: yeah , each is s so that 's funny . grad c: when it professor b: you bury the s the state in the function alright . grad c: it grad a: well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right ? professor b: uh grad a: so it 's just a shorthand . professor b: yeah . grad c: for example oh , this is german . sorry . e so , now , this , it can not do anymore . nothing comes out of here . grad a: a `` not a number `` is a value . awesome . grad c: so , it does n't speak german anymore , but it does speak english . and there is , here , a reference so , this tells us that whatever is has the id `` zero `` is referenced here by @ @ { comment } the restriction seed and this is exa `` i want `` what was the sentence ? professor b: `` i want two seats here . `` grad c: `` need two seats here . `` nuh . `` and where is it playing ? `` there should also be a reference to something , maybe . our d this is re um mmm . here , we change and so , we here we add something to the discourse - status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before and , uh and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema . grad a: so then , whatever takes this m - three - l is what actually changes the state , not the yeah , ok . professor b: no , right , the discourse maintainer , grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . i see . and it and it runs around looking for discourse status tags , and doing whatever it does with them . and other people ignore those tags . alright . so , yeah . i definitely think it 's it 's worth the exercise of trying to actually add something that is n't there . grad c: hmm ? professor b: uh disc grad c: sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing . professor b: yeah , a kid understanding what 's going on . then the next thing we talked about is actually , um , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that . grad c: ok . point number two . i got the , uh , m - three - l for the routes today . uh , so i got some more . this is sort of the uh , um , hmm . interesting . it 's just going up , it 's not going back down . so , this is um , what i got today is the the new um m - three - l for um , the maps , professor b: yep . grad c: uh , and with some examples so , this is the xml and this is sort of what it will look like later on , even though it you ca n't see it on on this resolution . and this is what it sort of is the the structure of map requests , um also not very interesting , and here is the more interesting stuff for us , is the routes , route elements , and , again , as we thought it 's really simple . this is sort of the , uh , um , parameters . we have @ @ { comment } simple `` from objects `` and `` to objects `` and so forth , points of interest along the way and , um , i asked them whether or not we could , um first of all , i was little bit it seemed to me that this m way of doing it is sort of a stack a step backwards from the way we 've done it before . t it seems to me that some notions were missing . professor b: s grad c: so these are these are professor b: so these are these are your friends back at eml . grad c: yep . who are doing this . professor b: so this is not a complicated negotiation . there 's there 's not seven committees , or anything , right ? grad c: no . no , this is very straightforward . professor b: great . so this is just trying to it 's a design thing , not a political thing . once we 've eh we can just sort of agree on what oughta be done . grad c: yeah . professor b: good . grad c: exactly . and , um and , uh however , the , uh e so that you understand , it is really simple . uh you you have a route , and you cut it up in different pieces . and every every element of that e r r f of that every segment we call a `` route element `` . and so , from a to b we cut up in three different steps , and every step has a `` from object `` where you start , a `` to object `` where y where you sort of end , and some points of interest along the way . what w i was sort of missing here , and uh , maybe it was just me being too stupid , is , i did n't sort of get the the notion of the global goal of the whole route . really , s was not straightforward visibly for me . and some other stuff . and i suggested that they should n be k uh , kind enough to do s two things for us , is one , um , also allocating , uh , some tags for our action schema enter - vista - approach , and and also , um , since you had suggested that that , um , we figure out if we ever , for a demo reason , wanted to shortcut directly to the g gis and the planner , of how we can do it . now , what 's the state of the art of getting to entrances , um , what 's the syntax for that , how get getting to vista points and calculating those on the spot . and the approach mode , anyhow , is the default . that 's all they do it these days . wherever you 'll find a route planner it n does nothing but get to the closest point where the street network is at minimal distance to the geometric center . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: so . professor b: so , well , let now , this is important . let , uh i want a a again , outside of m almost managerial point , um you 're in the midst of this , so you know better . but it seems to me it 's probably a good idea to li uh minimize the number of uh , change requests we make of them . so it seemed to me , what we ought to do is get our story together . ok ? and think about it some , internally , before asking them to make changes . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh . does this does this make sense to you guys ? it i mean you 're you 're doing the the interaction but it seemed to me that what we ought to do is come up with a uh , something where you , um and i i do n't know who 's mok working most closely on it . probably johno . ok . uh , take what they have , send it to everybody saying `` this is what they have , this is what we think we should add `` , ok ? and then have a d a an iteration within our group saying `` hmm , well `` ok ? and get our best idea of what we should add . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then go back to them . is i or , i do n't know does this make sense to you ? or grad c: yeah . especially if we want sort of , what i my feeling was eh we we sort of reserved something that has a r eh an ok label . that 's th that was my th first sort of step . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: i w no matter how we want to call it , this is sort of our playground . professor b: right . grad c: and if we get something in there that is a structure elaborate and and and and and complex enough to to to maybe enable a whole simulation , one of these days , that would be u the the perfect goal . professor b: right . that 's right . so . so , yeah . the problem is n't the short ra range optimization . it 's the sort of o one or two year kind of thing . ok . what are the thl class of things we think we might try to do in a year or two ? how how would we try to characterize those and what do we want to request now that 's leave enough space to do all that stuff ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: yep . professor b: and that re that requires some thought . grad c: yep . professor b: and so that sounds like a great thing to do as the priority item um , as soon as we can do it . grad c: yep . professor b: so y so you guys will send to the rest of us um a version of um , this , and the uh , description grad a: with sugge yeah , suggested improvements and professor b: well b yeah . so , the the uh not everyone uh , reads german , so if you 'd um grad a: mmm . professor b: tu uh , tur change the description to , uh , english grad a: ok . professor b: and , um , then then , yeah . then , with some sug s suggestions about where where do we go from here ? grad a: ok . professor b: uh , this and this , of course , was just the action end . uh , at some point we 're going to have to worry about the language end . but for the moment just uh , t for this class of of things , we might want to try to encompass . and grad a: then the scope of this is beyond approach and vis - or vista . yeah , yeah . professor b: oh , yeah , yeah yeah yeah . this is this is everything that that , um , you know , um we might want to do in the next couple years . grad a: yeah , yeah . so what would grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . professor b: we do n't i mean , that 's an issue . we do n't know what , entirely . grad a: uh , yeah . but i 'm just but the yeah , ok . so i just this xml stuff here just has to do with source - path - goal type stuff , in terms of traveling through heidelberg . grad c: hmm . grad a: or travel , specifically . professor b: right . grad a: so , but this o is the domain greater than that ? professor b: no . grad a: ok . professor b: i think i think the i the idea is that oh . it 's beyond source - path - goal , but i think we do n't need to get beyond it @ @ { comment } tourists in heidelberg . grad a: ok . professor b: it seems to me we can get all the complexity we want in actions and in language without going outside of tourists in heidelberg . ok ? but you know , i depending on what people are interested in , one could have , uh , tours , one could have um , explanations of why something is is , you know , why why was this done , or i mean , no there 's no end to the complexity you can build into the uh , what a tourist in heidelberg might ask . grad a: mmm . professor b: so , at least unless somebody else wants t to suggest otherwise i think the general domain we do n't have t to uh , broaden . that is , tourists in heidelberg . and if there 's something somebody comes up with that ca n't be done that way , then , sure . w we 'll we 'll look at that , but uh i 'd be s i i 'd be surprised at if there 's any important issue that that and , um i mean if if you want to uh , push us into reference problems , that would be great . phd f: ok . professor b: ok , so this is his specialty is reference , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and you know , what what are these things referring to ? not only anaphora , but , uh , more generally the , uh this whole issue of , uh , referring expressions , and , what is it that they 're actually dealing with in the world ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , again , this is li in the databa this is also pretty well formed because there is an ontology , and the database , and stuff . so it is n't like , um , you know , the evening star or stuff like that . phd f: right . professor b: i i it all the entities do have concrete reference . although th the to get at them from a language may not be trivial . phd f: right . professor b: there are n't really deep mysteries about um , what w what things the system knows about . phd f: right . right . and you have both proper names and descriptions professor b: all those things . phd f: and y and you can ask for it . professor b: yeah . you have proper names , and descriptions . grad c: mm - hmm . phd f: right . professor b: and a l and a lot and and anaphora , and pronouns , grad c: nuh . phd f: ok . right . professor b: and all those things . phd f: right . grad c: now , we hav the the whole unfortunately , the whole database is , uh , in german . we have just commissioned someone to translate some bits of it , ie the e the shortest k the the more general descriptions of all the objects and , um , persons and events . so , it 's a relational database with persons , events , and , um , objects . and it 's it 's quite , um , there . but did y i uh i think there will be great because the reference problem really is not trivial , even if you have such a g well - defined world . professor b: he knows . grad c: ah - he you are not , uh , throwing uh , uh , carrying owls to athens . grad a: could you give me an example of a reference problem ? so so l i can make it more concrete ? grad c: well how do i get to the powder - tower ? we sort of t think that our bit in this problem is interesting , but , just to get from powder - tower to an object i id in a database is also not really trivial . phd f: or or if you take something even more scary , um , `` how do i get to the third building after the tower ? the ple - powder - tower ? `` grad a: mmm . phd f: uh , you need some mechanism for professor b: yeah . or , you know , the church across from city hall , or grad a: or the re the restaurant where they wear lederhosen ? grad c: or the phd f: right . grad a: or is that professor b: yeah , that would be fine . grad a: ok . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . grad c: o or or tower , or this tower , or that building , or phd f: right . grad e: uniquely . grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . trying to professor b: or you can say `` how `` you know , `` how do i get back ? `` grad a: yeah , yeah . professor b: ok . and , again , it 's just a question of which of these things , uh , people want to dive into . what , uh , i think i 'm gon na try to do , and i guess , pwww ! let 's say that by the end of spring break , i 'll try to come up with some general story about , um , construction grammar , and what constructions we 'd use and how all this might fit together . there 's this whole framework problem that i 'm feeling really uncomfortable about . and i have n't had a chance to think about it seriously . but i i want to i want to do that early , rather than late . and you and i will probably have to talk about this some . grad c: u u u u that 's what strikes me , that we sort of the de g uh , small something , uh , maybe we should address one of these days , is to that most of the work people actually always do is look at some statements , and and analyze those . whether it 's abstracts or newspapers and stuff like this . professor b: hmm . grad c: but the whole i is it is it really relevant that we are dealing mostly with , sort of , questions ? professor b: oh , yeah ? grad c: uh , you know professor b: well , i mean yeah , i d grad c: and this is it seems to me that we should maybe at least spend a session or or brainstorm a little bit about whether that l this is special case in that sense . grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , i do n't know . you know did we ever find m metaphorical use in in questions in in that sense , really ? professor b: yeah . grad d: professor b: you will . grad c: and how soon , professor b: oh , yeah . grad c: i do n't know . professor b: i mean , uh , we could take all the standard metaphor examples and make question versions of them . ok . grad c: `` who got kicked out of france ? `` phd f: muh professor b: yeah , or , you know . `` wh - why is he why is he pushing for promotion ? `` grad c: nuh . phd f: right . professor b: or , `` who 's pushing proof `` grad c: nuh . professor b: er , just pick pick any of them and just do the eh grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so i do n't i do n't think , uh , it 's at all difficult uh , to convert them to question forms that really exist and people say all the time , um and sort of we do n't know how to handle them , too . right ? i mean , it 's i d it we do n't know how to handle the declarative forms , @ @ { comment } really , and , then , the interrogative forms , ah - oh . uh . yeah . grad d: ooo ! professor b: nancy , it looked like you were s grad e: oh . it 's just that that the goals are g very different to cases so we had this problem last year when we first thought about this domain , actually , was that most of the things we talked about are our story understanding . professor b: right . grad e: uh , we 're gon na have a short discourse and the person talking is trying to , i do n't know , give you a statement and tell you something . and here , it 's th grad c: help you create a mental model , blah - blah - blah . yeah . grad e: yea - eh y yeah , i guess so . professor b: yes . grad e: and then here , y you are j uh , the person is getting information and they or may not be following some larger plan , you know , that we have to recognize or , you know , infer . and th th the their discourse patterns probably do n't follo follow quite as many logical connec professor b: right . no , i think that 's one of things that 's interesting , is is in this sort of over - arching story we we worked it out for th as you say , this the storytelling scenario . grad e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: and i think it 's really worth thinking through what it looks like . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: what is the simspec mean , et cetera . grad e: mm - hmm . m right . cuz for a while we were thinking , `` well , how can we change the , um , data to sort of illicit tha illicit , um , actions that are more like what we are used to ? `` but obviously we would rather , you know , try to figure out what 's what 's , you know professor b: well , i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe that 's what we 'll do is is s u e we can do anything we want with it . i mean , once we have fulfilled these requirements , grad e: yep . mmm mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: ok , and the one for next uh , summer is just half done and then the other half is this , um , `` generation thing `` which we think is n't much different . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so once that 's done , then all the rest of it is , uh , sort of , you know , what we want to do for the research . and we can w we can do all sorts of things that do n't fit into their framework at all . th - there 's no reason why we 're c we 're constrained to do that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: if we can use all the , uh , execution engines , then we can , you know , really try things that would be too too much pain to do ourselves . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but there 's no obligation on any of this . so , if we want to turn it into u understan standing stories about heidelberg , we can do that . i mean , that would just be a t a um grad c: or , as a matter of fact , we need and if we if we ' r eh take a ten year perspective , we need to do that , because w e w a assuming we have this , um , we we ta in that case we actually do have these wonderful stories , and historical anecdotes , professor b: yeah . grad c: and knights jumping out of windows , grad e: mmm . grad c: and - and - and { comment } { comment } tons of stuff . so , th the database is huge , and if we want to answer a question on that , we actually have to go one step before that , and understand that . in order to e do sensible information extraction . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: you might , yeah . grad c: and so , um , this has been a a a deep map research issue that was is is part of the unresolved , and to - do 's , and something for the future , is how can we sort of run our our text , our content , through a machine that will enable us , later , to retrieve or answer e questions more sensibly ? phd f: mwa mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . mmm . professor b: right . anyway . s who 's going ? phd f: so , uh so , uh , i was just going to ask , um , so , what is the the basic thing that that you are , um , obligated to do , um , uh , by the summer before w uh y c we can move professor b: ah ! ok . so eh yeah . so , what happened is , there 's this , eh , uh robert was describing the there 's two packages there 's a , uh , quote parser , there 's a particular piece of this big system , which , in german , uh , takes these t sentence templates and produces xml structures . and one of our jobs was to make the english equivalent of that . phd f: right . professor b: that , these guys did in a in a day . phd f: right . right . professor b: the other thing is , at the other end , roughly at the same level , there 's something that takes , uh , x m l structures , produces an output xml structure which is instructions for the generator . phd f: right . professor b: ok ? and then there 's a language generator , and then after that a s a synthesizer that goes from an xml structure to , uh , language generation , to actual specifications for a synthesizer . eh , but again , there 's one module in which there 's one piece that we have to convert to english . phd f: right . right . got it . professor b: is that ok . and that but as i say , this is all along was viewed as a kind of a m a minor thing , necessary , but but not phd f: right . professor b: ok ? phd f: right . professor b: and much more interesting is the fact that , as part of doing this , we we are , you know , inheriting this system that does all sort of these other things . phd f: that 's great ! right . professor b: not precisely what we want , and that 's that 's wh where it it gets difficult . and i i do n't pretend to understand yet what i think we really ought to do . grad c: ok . so , e enough of that , but i , uh , um , mmm , the e sort of , johno and i will take up that responsibility , and , um , get a first draft of that . now , we have um just , i think two more short things . professor b: ok . grad c: um , y you guys sort of started fighting , uh , on the bayes - net `` noisy - or `` front ? grad d: hmm . yeah , i thought i should , um , talk a little bit about that , because that might be a good , uh , sort of architecture to have , in general for , uh , problems with , you know , multiple inputs to a node . professor b: good ! ok . good . and what 's the other one ? so that just we know what the d agenda is ? grad c: um , the wu paper , i think maybe professor b: oh , yeah . i 've got a couple new wu papers as well . uh , so i i 've been in contact with wu , so , probably let 's put that off till i i till i understand better , uh , what he 's doing . it 's just a little embarrassing cause all this was in his thesis and i was on his thesis committee , and , so , i r really knew this at one time . phd f: ugh . professor b: but , i i it 's not only uh is part of what i have n't figured out yet is is how all this goes together . so i 'll dig up some more stuff from dekai . and so why do n't we just do the , uh grad d: ok . so should i is there a white board here that i can use ? professor b: yeah . you could grad d: uh grad e: yeah . professor b: squealing sound ? grad d: or shall i just use this ? professor b: it 's probably just as easy . i phd f: yeah . grad d: yeah . grad a: you can put the microphone in your pocket . grad d: hey ! grad a: i was envying you and your pocket cause i do n't have one . grad e: it was a quick one , huh ? professor b: that 's why they invented `` pocket t 's `` . grad a: exactly grad e: they have clips ! grad d: yeah . grad e: huh . grad d: so , um recall that , uh , we want to have this kind of structure in our bayes - nets . namely , that , um you have these nodes that have several bands , right ? so does i mean , they sort of the typical example is that , um , these are all a bunch of cues for something , and this is a certain effect that we 'd like to conclude . so , uh like , let 's just look at the case when , um , this is actually the the final action , right ? so this is like , uh , you know , touch , grad c: y grad d: or grad c: e - eva grad d: sorry . uh grad c: grad d: yeah , e - eva , right ? grad c: yeah . grad d: enter , v view , approach , right ? phd f: w what was this ? it i i i ehhh , { comment } i ehhh . professor b: wri - write it out for for grad d: so , this is yeah . enter , phd f: i mean grad d: view , approach . phd f: ok . right . grad d: right . so , i mean , we 'd like to take all these various cues , right ? phd f: like the army . grad d: so this one might be , say , uh grad e: new terminology ? phd f: yeah . grad c: hmm ? grad d: well , let me pick a random one grad e: i have n't heard that before . grad d: and say , uh i do n't know , it could be , like this is n't the way it really is , but let me say that , suppose someone mentioned , uh , admission fees ah , it takes too long . try let me just say `` landmark `` . if the thing is a landmark , you know , um then there 's another thing that says if um if it 's closed or not , at the moment . alright , so you have nodes . right ? and the , uh , problem that we were having was that , you know , given n - nodes , there 's `` two to the n `` given n - nodes , and furthermore , the fact that there 's three things here , we need to specify `` three times `` , uh , `` two to the n `` probabilities . right ? that 's assuming these are all binary , which f they may not be . for example , they could be `` time of day `` , in which case we could , uh , say , you know , `` morning , afternoon , evening , night `` . so , this could be more so , it 's a lot , anyway . and , that 's a lot of probabilities to put here , which is kind of a pain . so noisy - ors are a way to , uh , sort of deal with this . um where should i put this ? so , the idea is that , um , let 's call these , uh , c - one , c - two , c - three , and c - four , and e , for cause and effect , i guess . the idea is to have these intermediate nodes . right . well , actually , the idea , first of all , is that each of these things has a quote - unquote distinguished state , which means that this is the state in which we do n't really know anything about it . so right ? so , for example , if we do n't really know if the thing is a landmark or not , or , i if that just does n't seem relevant , then that would be th sort of the disting - the distinguish state . it 's a really , you know , if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee , you know , if they did n't talk about it , that would be the distinguish state . grad c: s so , this is a fanciful way of saying `` default `` ? grad d: so yeah , yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: that 's just what they the word they used in that paper . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so , the idea is that , um , you have these intermediate nodes , right ? e - one , e - two , e - three and e - four ? professor b: so , this is the heckerman paper you 're working with ? good . grad d: yeah . so the idea is that , each of these ei is represents what this would be if all the other ones were in the distinguish state . right ? so , for example , suppose that the person i mean , suppose the thing that they talked about is a landmark . but none of the other sort of cues really apply . then , this would be w the this would just represent the probability distribution of this , assuming that this cue is turned on and the other ones just did n't apply ? so , you know , if it is a landmark , and no none of the other things really ap applicable , then this would represent the probability distribution . so maybe in this case maybe we just t k maybe we decide that , if the thing 's a landmark and we do n't know anything else , then we 're gon na conclude that , um they want to view it with probability , you know , point four . they want to enter it with probability , uh with probability point five and they want to approach it probability point one , say right ? so we come up with these l little tables for each of those ok . and the final thing is that , um this is a deterministic function of these , so we do n't need to specify any probabilities . we just have to , um , say what function this is , right ? so we can let this be , um g of e - one comma e - two . e - three , e - four . right ? and our example g would be , um , a majority vote ? right ? professor b: well . ok , so th so the important point is w not what the g function is . the important point is that um there is a a a general kind of idea of shortcutting the full cpt . th - c the full conditional probability table with some function . ok ? which y w you choose appropriately for each case . so , depending on what your situation is , there are different functions which are most appropriate . and so i gave eh bhaskara a copy of this , eh sort of `` ninety - two `` { comment } paper . d and you got one , robert . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: i do n't know who else has seen it . grad d: there 's i mean yeah . it 's heckerman and breese . professor b: it 's short . it 's short . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , i u w um , yo uh you have you read it yet ? grad d: uh , you can yeah , you should take a look at it , i guess . grad a: ok professor b: ok , so you should take a look . nancy , i 'm sure you read it at some point in life . grad e: i yeah . i i think so , yeah . professor b: ok . and so , you other guys can decide how interested grad e: yeah , @ @ . professor b: anyway . so the paper is n't th is n't real hard . phd f: ok . professor b: and uh one of the questions just come at bhaskara is , `` how much of this does javabayes support ? `` grad d: yeah , it 's a good question . um the so what we want , is basically javabayes to support deterministic , uh , functions . professor b: right . grad d: and , um in a sense it sup we can make it supported by , um , manually , uh , entering , you know , probabilities that are one and zeros , right ? professor b: right . so the little handout that the little thing that i sent i sent a message saying , uh , here is a way to take one thing you could do , which is kind of s in a way , stupid , is take this deterministic function , and use it to build the cpt . so , if ba - javabayes wo n't do it for you , grad c: mmm . professor b: that you can convert all that into what the cpt would be . um and , what i sent out about a week ago , was an idea of how to do that , for , um , evidence combination . so one of one function that you could use as your `` g function `` is an e e evidence - combining . so you just take the uh , if each of th if each of the ones has its own little table like that , then you could take the , uh , strength of each of those , times its little table , and you 'd add up the total evidence for `` v `` , `` e `` , and `` a `` . grad d: mmm . i do n't think you can do this , because g is a function from that to that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: yep . right . grad d: right ? so there 's no numbers . there 's just quadruplets of well , n - duplets of , uh , e vs . professor b: i i i no , no but i 'm saying is there there is a w i mean , if y if if you decide what 's what is appropriate , is probablistic evidence combination , you can write a function that does it . it 's a pui it 's actually one of the examples he 's got in there . but , anyway , s skipping skipping the question of exactly which functions now is it clear that you might like to be able to shortcut the whole conditional probability table . grad c: i mean , in some it seems very plausible in some sense , where we will be likely to not be observe some of the stuff . cuz we do n't have the a access to the information . grad d: oops , { comment } sorry . professor b: right . that 's one of the problems , is , w is is , where would th where would it all come from ? grad c: yeah . so . grad d: is oh , right . w would not be ab able to observe grad e: mmm . grad d: what ? grad c: i if it 's a a a discar discourse initial phrase , we will have nothing in the discourse history . so , if if we ever want to wonder what was mention grad d: oh oh . a are you saying that we 'll not be able to observe certain nodes ? that 's fine . that is sort of orthogonal thing . professor b: yeah , so there 's there 's two separate things , robert . the f the the the bayes - nets in general are quite good at saying , `` if you have no current information about this variable just take the prior for that . `` ok ? th - that 's what they 're real good at . so , if you do n't have any information about the discourse , you just use your priors of of whatever eh the discourse uh , eh , basically whatever w it 's probabilistically , whatever it would be . and it 's it 's sort of not a great estimate , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's the best one you have , and , so forth . so that , they 're good at . but the other problem is , how do you fill in all these numbers ? and i think that 's the one he was getting at . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah . so , specifically in this case you have to f have this many numbers , grad e: yeah . grad d: whereas in this case you just have to have three for this , three for this , three for this . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so you have to have just three n ? so , this is much smaller than that . grad a: asymptotically . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: well , pretty quickly . grad d: yeah . right . grad a: u yeah , yeah . professor b: i mean grad e: so , you do n't need da data enough to cover uh , nearly as much stuff . grad d: i do n't know . grad a: so , really , i what a a noisy - or seems to kind of `` neural - net - acize `` these bayes - nets ? professor b: eh well to some no , no . so , `` noisy - or `` is a funny way of referring to this , because the noisy - or is only one instance . grad d: yeah . this is n't a noisy - or anymore . professor b: that one actually is n't a noisy - or . so we 'll have to think of of a way t t grad a: yeah . grad d: it 's a noisy - arg - max or a noisy - whatever . professor b: yeah , whatever . yeah . so eh { comment } um grad a: well , my point was more that we just eh with the neural net , right , eh , things come in , you have a function that combines them and professor b: yeah , it it tha - that 's true . it is a is also more neural - net - like , although uh , it is n't necessarily sum uh , s you know , sum of weights or anything like that . grad a: right . professor b: i mean i you could have , uh , like the noisy - or function , really is one that 's essentially says , uh , take the max . grad d: well , the `` or `` . professor b: same . grad d: right . i guess you 're right . yeah . professor b: uh but anyway . so and , i thi i think that 's the standard way people get around the uh there are a couple other ones . there are ways of breaking this up into s to to subnets and stuff like that . but , um the i think we definitely i think it 's a great idea tha to to pursue that . grad d: yep . so grad c: wha - still sort of leaves one question . it i mean you you can always uh see easily that that i 'm not grasping everything correctly , but what seemed attractive to me in im uh in the last discussion we had , was that we find out a means of of getting these point four , point five , point one , of c - four , not because , you know , a is a landmark or not , but we we we label this whatever object type , and if it 's a garden , it 's point three , point four , point two . if it 's a castle , it 's point eight , point one , point one . if it 's , uh , a town hall , it 's point two , point three , point five . professor b: right . grad c: and so forth . and we do n't want to write this down necessarily every time for something but , uh let 's see . grad d: it 'll be students where else would it be stored ? that 's the question . grad c: well , in the beginning , we 'll write up a flat file . professor b: oh . grad c: we know we have twenty object types professor b: yeah . grad c: and we 'll write it down in a flat file . professor b: no . so , i is well , let me say something , guys , cuz there 's not there 's a pretty point about this we might as well get in right now . which is the hierarchy that s comes with the ontology is just what you want for this . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so that uh , if you know about it let 's say , a particular town hall that , it 's one that is a monument , then , that would be stored there . if you do n't , you look up the hierarchy , eh so , you you you may or so , then you 'd have this little vector of , um , you know , approach mode or eva mode . let 's ok , so we have the eva vector for for various kinds of landmarks . if you know it for a specific landmark you put it there . if you do n't , you just go up the hierarchy to the first place you find one . grad d: ok . so , is the idea to put it in the ontology ? professor b: absolutely . grad d: ok . professor b: uh , or , link to or but but in any case i view it logically as being in the ontology . it 's part of what you know about a an object , is its eva vector . grad d: ok . professor b: and , if yo as i say , if you know about a specific object , you put it there . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: this is part of what dekai was doing . so , when we get to wu , the - e we 'll see w what he says about that . grad d: right . professor b: and , then if you if it is n't there , it 's higher , and if you do n't know anything except that it 's a b it 's it 's a building , then up at the highest thing , you have the pr what amounts to a prior . if you do n't know anything else about a building , uh , you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level , grad d: right . professor b: which might be equal , or whatever it is . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , that 's a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology . and it seems to me the obvious thing to do , unless we find a reason to do something different . grad d: yeah . professor b: does this make sense to you ? grad d: so professor b: bhask - ? grad d: yeah . so , we are but we we 're not doing the ontology , so we have to get to whoever is doing the u ultimately , professor b: indeed . so , that 's another thing we 're gon na need to do , is is , to , either grad d: we have to get them to professor b: we 're gon na need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology , or add fields , or { comment } { comment } some way to associate or , w it may be that all we can do is , um , some of our own hash tables that it th - the th you know , there 's always a way to do that . it 's a just a question of grad a: yeah , hash on object name to , you know , uh , the probabilities or whatever . professor b: i th yeah . e right . and , so , i uh grad c: but it 's , uh well , it strikes me as a what for if we get the mechanism , that will be sort of the wonderful part . and then , how to make it work is is the second part , in the sense that i mean , m the guy who was doing the ontology eh , eh , s ap apologized that i it will take him another through two to three days because they 're having really trouble getting the upper level straight , and right now . the reason is , given the craw bet uh , the the the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and , on all history , they 're really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the eml projects , and that 's , uh , uh , sort of a tough cookie , a little bit tougher than they figured . i could have told them s so . professor b: right . yeah . grad c: uh . but , nevertheless , it 's going to be there by n by , uh , next monday and i will show you what 's what some examples from that for towers , and stuff . and , um , what i do n't think is ever going to be in the ontology , is sort of , you know , the likelihood of , eh , people entering r town halls , and looking at town halls , and approaching town halls , especially since we are b dealing with a case - based , not an instance - based ontology . so , there will be nothing on on that town hall , or on the berkeley town hall , or on the heidelberg town hall , it 'll just be information on town halls . professor b: well , they they they how ar what are they gon na do with instances ? grad c: but what professor b: i mean , you y grad c: well , that 's hhh . that 's that 's al different question . i mean , th the first , they had to make a design question , `` do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not , that just has the types ? `` professor b: ok . grad c: and , so , since the d decision was on types , on a d simply type - based , we now have to hook it up to instances . i mean this is professor b: but what i what is smartkom gon na do about that ? grad c: one professor b: cuz , they have instances all the time . grad c: yeah , but the ontology is really not a smartkom thing , in in and of itself . that 's more something that i kicked loose in in eml . so it 's a completely eml thing . professor b: but uh uh smartkom 's gon na need an ontology . grad c: yes , u a w a lot of people are aware of that . professor b: i understand , but is anybody doing anything about it ? grad c: um professor b: ok . it 's a political problem . we wo n't worry about it . grad c: no , but th the r eh i th i still think that there is enough information in there . for example , whether ok . so , th it will know about the twenty object types there are in the world . let 's assume there are only twenty object types in this world . and it will know if any of those have institutional meanings . so , in a sense , `` i `` used as institutions for some s in some sense or the other . which makes them enterable . right ? in a sense . professor b: yeah . anyway . so we may have to grad c: you know . professor b: this is with the whole thing , grad c: yep . professor b: we may have to build another data stru grad c: yep . professor b: conceptually , we know what should be done . when we see what people have done , it may turn out that the easiest thing to do is to build a a separate thing that that just pools i i like , i i it it may be , that , the the instance w that we have to build our own instance , uh , things , that , with their types , grad d: yeah , it 's right , we can just assume professor b: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type . so we build a little data structure and so what we would do in that case , is , in our instance gadget have our e v and if we d there is n't one we 'd get the type and then have the e v as for the type . so we 'd have our own little , uh , eva tree . and then , for other , uh , vectors that we need . grad d: yeah . right . professor b: so , we 'd have our own little things so that whenever we needed one , we 'd just use the ontology to get the type , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: and then would hash or whatever we do to say , `` ah ! grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: if it 's that type of thing , and we want its eva vector , pppt - pppt ! { comment } it 's that . `` so , i i think we can handle that . and then but , the combination functions , and whether we can put those in java bayes , and all that sort of stuff , is , uh is the bigger deal . grad d: yeah . professor b: i think that 's where we have to get technically clever . grad a: we could just steal the classes in javabayes and then interface to them with our own code . grad d: um professor b: well , i me ye eh , yeah , the grad d: that requires understanding the classes in javabayes , i guess . @ @ . professor b: yeah , i mean , it 's , uh , e e e e e cute . i mean , you 've been around enough to i mean just ? grad a: well , it depends on professor b: i mean , there 's this huge package which which may or may not be consistent and you know . but , yeah , we could look at it . grad a: well , i was j ok . yeah . professor b: yeah . it 's b it it 's an inter sort of a kind of a it the thing is , it 's kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form , and if you say , `` hey , we 're gon na make a different kind of data structure to stick in there `` grad a: well , no , but that just means there 's a protocol , right ? that you could professor b: it may or may not . i do n't know . that 's the question is `` to what extent does it allow us to put in these g functions ? `` and i do n't know . grad a: well , no , but i mean what i uh the so you could have four different bayes - nets that you 're running , and then run your own write your own function that would take the output of those four , and make your own `` g function `` , is what i was saying . professor b: yeah , that 's fine if it 's if it comes only at the end . but suppose you want it embedded ? grad a: well , then you 'd have to break all of your bayes - nets into smaller bayes - nets , with all the professor b: oh , that yeah , that 's a truly horrible way to do d it . one would hope grad a: yeah , but i 'm just grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , you bet . but , at that point you may say , `` hey , java bayes is n't the only package in town . let 's see if there 's another package that 's , eh , more civilized about this . `` grad d: professor b: now , srini is worth talking to on this , grad d: mmm . professor b: cuz he said that he actually did hack some combining functions into but he does n't remember at least when i talked to him , he did n't remember whether it was an e an easy thing , a natural thing , or whether he had to do some violence to it to make it work . grad d: ah ! professor b: uh . but he did do it . grad d: yeah . i do n't see why the , uh , combining f functions have to be directly hacked into i mean , they 're used to create tables so we can just make our own little functions that create tables in xml . professor b: well , i say that 's one way to do it , is is to just convert it int into a into a c p t that you zip it 's blown up , and is a it 's , uh it 's huge , but it does n't require any data fitting or complication . grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . i do n't think i mean , the fact that it blown u blows up is a huge issue in the sense that i mean , ok . so say it blows up , right ? so there 's , like , the you know , ten , f ten , fifteen , uh , things . it 's gon na be like , two to the that , which is n't so bad . professor b: i i understand . i 'm just saying tha that w that was wi that was my note . the little note i sent said that . it said , `` here 's the way you 'd take the logical f g function and turn it into a cpt . `` grad d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean that the max - the evidence - combining function . so we could do that . and maybe that 's what we 'll do . but , um do n't know . so , i will , e e before next week , uh , @ @ { comment } p push push some more on on this stuff that dekai wu did , and try to understand it . uh , you 'll make a couple of more copies of the heckerman paper to give to people ? grad d: p sure . phd f: yeah , i i would like a copy , professor b: ok . grad d: ok . phd f: y y yeah . professor b: and , um phd f: ok . professor b: i think grad c: ok . and i i 'll i 'll think s through this , uh , eh getting eva vectors dynamically out of ontologies one more time because i s i i i 'm not quite sure whether we all think of the same thing or not , here . professor b: well , you and i should talk about it . grad c: yeah , uh - huh . ok . professor b: alright , great ! and , robert , thank you for coming in under he he 's been sick , robert . grad c: und . grad a: i was thinking maybe we should just cough into the microphone and see if they ca n't th see if they can handle it . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . grad e: sure . grad c: um is this , uh { disfmarker }

object representations will include an eva vector . this can be incorporated in the database entry for a particular building or inherited from the ontology of the building type . as the project evolves , further enrichment of the ontology ( actions , linguistic features ) will be necessary .

what was said about data collection ? </s> grad a: yeah , i think i got my mike on . ok . let 's see . professor b: ok . ami , do yours then we 'll open it and i think it 'll be enough . grad a: mmm does n't , uh it should be the other way . yeah , now it 's on . phd f: right . ok . professor b: ok . so , we all switched on ? grad a: we are all switched on , yeah . professor b: alright . anyway . so , uh , before we get started with the , uh , technical part , i just want to review what i think is happening with the our data collection . phd f: we are all switched on . professor b: so uh , probably after today , that should n't come up in this meeting . th - this this is s should be im it is n't there 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . but , uh , i just want to make sure we 're all together on this . what we think is gon na happen is that , uh , in parallel starting about now we 're gon na get fey to , where you 're working with me and robert , draft a note that we 're gon na send out to various cogsci c and other classes saying , `` here 's an opportunity to be a subject . contact fey . `` and then there 'll be a certain number of um , hours during the week which she will be available and we 'll bring in people . uh , roughly how many , robert ? we d do we know ? grad c: um , fifty was our sort of our first professor b: ok . so , we 're looking for a total of fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with with that . in parallel with that , we 're gon na need to actually do the script . and , so , i guess there 's a plan to have a meeting friday afternoon uh , with uh , jane , and maybe liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . but what i 'd like to do , if it 's o k , is to s to , as i say , start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . the week after that 's spring break , and maybe we 'll look for them some subjects next door grad c: yeah . professor b: or i grad c: yeah . also , fey will not be here during spring break . professor b: oh , ok , then we wo n't do it . grad c: so . professor b: ok . so that 's easy . um . so , is is that make sense to everybody ? grad c: yeah . also , um , f both fey and i will , um , do something of which i may , eh kindly ask you to to do the same thing , which is we gon na check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects . meaning , um , kid children 's gymnastic classes , pre - school parents and so forth . they also sometimes have flexible schedules . so , if you happen to be sort of in a non - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects we also considered using the berkeley high school and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff . professor b: that 's a good idea . grad c: and , um . so that 's as far as our brainstorming was concerned . professor b: oh , yeah . the high school 's a great idea . grad c: so . but i i will just make a first draft of the , uh , note , the `` write - up `` note , send it to you and fey and then professor b: and why do n't you also copy jane on it ? grad c: and , um , are we have we concurred that , uh , these these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ? professor b: uh , th i think they 're necessary . this the permission form . grad c: mmm . professor b: uh , there has to be one , grad c: nuh . n . professor b: and i think we 're just gon na use it as it is , and um grad c: n . you happy with that ? professor b: well , yeah . there 's one tricky part about , um , they have the right um i the last paragraph { comment } `` if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . `` ok ? now that , we had to be included for this other one which might have , uh , meetings , you know , about something . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: in this case , it does n't really make sense . um , so what i 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying `` i do n't want to see the final transcript `` . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and if they do n't if they say `` no , i 'm not willing to sign that `` , then we 'll show them the final transcript . but , um . grad c: yep . makes sense . professor b: that , uh yeah , so we might actually , um s i jane may say that , `` you know , you ca n't do this `` , uh , `` on the same form , we need a separate form . `` but anyway . i 'd i 'd i 'd like to , e e um , add an a little thi eh a thing for them to initial , saying `` nah , do i do n't want to see the final transcript . `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , uh , rec you know . and so forth . so i think we just go with it . grad c: yeah . yeah . ok . so much for the data , except that with munich everything is fine now . they 're gon na transcribe . they 're also gon na translate the , uh , german data from the tv and cinema stuff for andreas . so . they 're they all seem to be happy now , with that . so . w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ? professor b: yep . grad c: well i guess the good good news of last week was the parser . so , um bhaskara and i started working on the the parser . then bhaskara went to class and once he came back , um , it was finished . so . it , uh i did n't measure it , but it was about an hour and ten minutes . grad d: yep . grad c: and , um and now it 's we have a complete english parser that does everything the german parser does . grad d: something like that . professor b: which is not a lot . but grad d: that 's the , uh , point . grad c: the uh , that 's not a lot . professor b: ok . grad d: yes . professor b: right . grad c: and um . grad e: what did you end up having to do ? i mean , wha was there anything interesting about it at all ? grad c: well , if you , eh grad d: we 'll show you . professor b: yeah , we can show us , grad e: or are we gon na see that ? professor b: right ? grad c: well , w w we d the first we did is we we tried to to do change the the `` laufen `` into `` run `` , or `` running `` , or `` runs `` . professor b: yep . grad c: and we noticed that whatever we tried to do , it no effect . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and we were puzzled . grad e: ok . grad c: and , uh , the reason was that the parser i c completely ignores the verb . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so this sentence sentence is parses the p the same output , grad e: hmm . interesting parser property . grad c: um , even if you leave out , um , all all of this . grad e: i see . yeah . grad c: so it 's basically feature film and tv . grad e: today grad c: that 's what you need . grad e: ok . grad c: if if you 'd add add today and evening , it 'll add time or not . grad e: and the t and the time , right ? grad c: so it i it does look at that . grad e: ok . grad c: but all the rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser . grad e: true . professor b: so , you can sho you you are are you gon na show us the little templates ? grad c: and grad e: s grad c: yeah . we ar we can sh er i can show you the templates . i i also have it running here , grad e: the former end g `` oh , i see . uh - huh . grad c: so if i do this now , um , you can see that it parsed the wonderful english sentence , `` which films are on the cinema today evening ? `` but , um . professor b: well , that sounds grad c: uh do do n't worry about it . professor b: no i grad c: it could be `` this evening , which which films are on the cinema `` , or `` running in the cinema , which `` uh , `` today evening `` , uh i `` is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? `` grad e: ok . ok . key words , e basically . professor b: well grad c: ge - elaborate , or , more or less , uh professor b: actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable german orders which are n't allowable english orders and so forth . and it is order - based . so it it is n't it ? grad c: no . grad d: no . professor b: oh . so it it doe i it these u these optional elements , grad c: it is not professor b: it 's it 's actually a set , not a sequence ? grad c: yeah . we were i was afraid that , um professor b: oh ! grad e: so it really is key word matching , basically . professor b: really a se grad c: um . phd f: e yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: oh , wow . grad c: um , i mean , these sentences are just silly . grad e: hmm . grad c: i mean , uh , d these were not the ones we we actually did it . um . what 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? which films are showing ? grad d: are pl playing at the cinema ? grad c: playing ? grad d: yeah . grad e: tonight ? grad d: i changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account . grad e: this this evening ? phd f: actually , you would say , `` which films are on tonight ? `` grad d: you want to get it ? or is di was it easy to get it ? grad c: um . i have no net here . grad d: oh , ok . professor b: do i ? grad c: ok . so . wonderful parse , same thing . um . professor b: right . grad c: except that we d w we do n't have this , uh , time information here now , which is , um oh . this are the reserve . anyways . so . um . these are the sort of the ten different sentence types that the uh the parser was able to do . and it still is , now in english . professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and , um sorry . and , um you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ? grad d: yeah , i mean i changed those sentences to make it , uh , more , uh , idiomatic . and , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . so , in a sense it 's pretty broad . professor b: ok . grad c: ok . so , if you want to look at the templates , they 're conveniently located in a file , `` template `` . um , and this is what i had to do . i had to change , @ @ { comment } `` spielfilm `` to `` film `` , uh , `` film `` to `` movie `` , cinem `` kino `` to `` cinema `` to `` today `` heu `` heute `` to `` today `` , grad e: huh . grad c: evening `` abend `` to `` evening `` professor b: capitalized as well grad a: hmm . grad c: and , um . professor b: y i grad d: one thing i was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the m - three - l basically ? grad c: yep . grad d: ok . grad c: and that 's that 's the next step , professor b: p grad c: but we 'll get to that in a second . professor b: oh . grad c: and so this means , um , `` this `` and `` see `` are not optional . `` want i like `` is all maybe in there , but may also not be in there . professor b: so so , the point is , if it says `` this `` and `` see `` , it also will work in `` see `` and `` this `` ? grad e: s professor b: in the other order ? grad c: yeah . professor b: with those two key words ? grad c: should we try it ? professor b: `` this is the one i want to see `` or whatever . grad c: ok . `` action watch `` , grad d: hmm . grad c: whatever . nothing was specialfi specified . except that it has some references to audio - visual media here . grad d: av medium . grad c: where it gets that from grad d: yeah . grad c: it 's correct , but i do n't know where it gets it from . grad d: `` see `` . grad c: oh , `` see `` . yeah . yeah . yep . ok . grad d: i mean it 's sort of grad c: and `` see this `` { comment } is exactly the same thing . professor b: ok , so it is set - based . alright . grad d: one thing i was wondering was , those percentage signs , right ? so , i mean , why do we even have them ? grad c: yep . grad d: because if you did n't have them grad c: uh , i 'll tell you why . because it gives a you a score . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and the value of the score is , v i assume , i guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score it is . grad d: oh . ok . so that 's the main purpose . alright . grad e: it 's a match . phd f: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: ok . grad c: so we we should n't belittle it too much . it 's doing something , some things , and it 's very flexible . i 've just tried to grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: be nice . phd f: right . professor b: no , no . fine . grad e: right yeah . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , flexible it is . phd f: but grad c: ok . um , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . uh but we 'll mmm , that means we may need two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes , professor b: alright . grad c: i hope . grad d: right . grad c: and the next thing i would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be too difficult either , is to say , `` ok let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the the mapping of of , uh , words to the m - three - l but we also wanted to change add a new sentence type and and make up some some new m - three - l s `` professor b: yep . so that 'd be great . it would be a good exercise to just see whether one can get that to run . grad c: see th mm - hmm . yep . and , um , grad d: so , that 's grad c: that 's should n't be too tough . grad d: fine , yeah . yeah , so where are those those functions `` action `` , `` goodbye `` , and so on , right ? are they actually , um , are they going to be called ? um , are they present in the code for the parser ? grad c: yeah . i think what it does , it i i it does something sort of fancy . it loads um it has these style sheets and also the , um , schemata . so what it probably does , is it takes the , uh , um is this where it is ? this is already the xml stuff ? this is where it takes its own , um , syntax , and converts it somehow . um . where is the uh grad d: what are you looking for ? grad c: um , where it actually produces the the xml out of the , uh , parsed stuff . grad d: oh , ok . grad c: no , this is not it . uh . i ca n't find it now . you mean , where the where the act how the action `` goodbye `` maps into something grad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , where are those constructors defined ? grad d: oh . grad c: nope . grad d: no , that 's not it . grad c: yeah . this is sort of what happens . this is what you would need to to change to get the , uh , xml changed . so when it encounts encounters `` day `` , it will , uh , activate those h classes in the in the xml stuff but , um i saw those actions uh , the `` goodbye `` stuff somewhere . hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm . grad a: grep for it ? grad c: yeah . let 's do that . oh . grad d: mmm . m - three - l dot dtd ? grad c: yep . grad d: that 's just a specification for the xml format . grad c: yep . well , we 'll find that out . so whatever n this does i mean this is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ? professor b: hmm ? oh , yeah . grad c: and , um so , whenever it it encounters `` goodbye `` , which we can make it do in a second , here grad a: that function automatically generates an initialized xml structure ? grad c: i grad d: i think each of those functions act on the current xml structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a a l a field to it , or something . professor b: y yeah . they also seem to affect state , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: cause some of them there were other actions uh , that that s seemed to step state variables somewhere , grad d: right . professor b: like the n s `` discourse status confirm `` . ok . so that 's going to be a call on the discourse grad c: yep . professor b: and confirm that it 's grad c: w we mm - hmm grad d: oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree , professor b: i think that 's right . grad c: e grad d: but it 's going to change the event . professor b: i think it 's actually that looks like it 's state modification . grad d: oh . oh . grad c: e mmm um , well i there is a feature called `` discourse - status `` , grad d: when there 's a feature . professor b: yeah . grad c: and so whenever i just say , `` write `` , it will it will put this in here . professor b: oh , so it always just is it so it well , go back , then , cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the xml . grad c: h yep . professor b: uh - huh ! i 'm not i 'm not sure . grad c: so , this professor b: e i 'm not sure e that grad c: um well , we we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , `` goodbye `` , causes it to c to create basically an `` action goodbye - end - action `` . professor b: right . grad c: which is a means of telling the system to shut down . professor b: right . grad c: now , if we know that `` write `` produces a `` feature discourse - status confirm discourse - status `` . so if i now say `` write , goodbye , `` it should do that . it sho it creates this , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: `` confirm goodbye `` . professor b: yep . grad d: right there . but there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put goodbye in content , but , uh , confirm in features ? grad c: oh . it d it n that 's because grad d: so so , it 's not just that it 's adding that field . professor b: right . grad d: it 's professor b: absolutely . good point . grad d: ok . professor b: it 's it 's the it 's under what sub - type you 're doing it . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad a: it 's mystery functions . grad c: well , sometimes it m sometimes , i grad d: well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably . professor b: yeah , each is s so that 's funny . grad c: when it professor b: you bury the s the state in the function alright . grad c: it grad a: well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right ? professor b: uh grad a: so it 's just a shorthand . professor b: yeah . grad c: for example oh , this is german . sorry . e so , now , this , it can not do anymore . nothing comes out of here . grad a: a `` not a number `` is a value . awesome . grad c: so , it does n't speak german anymore , but it does speak english . and there is , here , a reference so , this tells us that whatever is has the id `` zero `` is referenced here by @ @ { comment } the restriction seed and this is exa `` i want `` what was the sentence ? professor b: `` i want two seats here . `` grad c: `` need two seats here . `` nuh . `` and where is it playing ? `` there should also be a reference to something , maybe . our d this is re um mmm . here , we change and so , we here we add something to the discourse - status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before and , uh and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema . grad a: so then , whatever takes this m - three - l is what actually changes the state , not the yeah , ok . professor b: no , right , the discourse maintainer , grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . i see . and it and it runs around looking for discourse status tags , and doing whatever it does with them . and other people ignore those tags . alright . so , yeah . i definitely think it 's it 's worth the exercise of trying to actually add something that is n't there . grad c: hmm ? professor b: uh disc grad c: sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing . professor b: yeah , a kid understanding what 's going on . then the next thing we talked about is actually , um , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that . grad c: ok . point number two . i got the , uh , m - three - l for the routes today . uh , so i got some more . this is sort of the uh , um , hmm . interesting . it 's just going up , it 's not going back down . so , this is um , what i got today is the the new um m - three - l for um , the maps , professor b: yep . grad c: uh , and with some examples so , this is the xml and this is sort of what it will look like later on , even though it you ca n't see it on on this resolution . and this is what it sort of is the the structure of map requests , um also not very interesting , and here is the more interesting stuff for us , is the routes , route elements , and , again , as we thought it 's really simple . this is sort of the , uh , um , parameters . we have @ @ { comment } simple `` from objects `` and `` to objects `` and so forth , points of interest along the way and , um , i asked them whether or not we could , um first of all , i was little bit it seemed to me that this m way of doing it is sort of a stack a step backwards from the way we 've done it before . t it seems to me that some notions were missing . professor b: s grad c: so these are these are professor b: so these are these are your friends back at eml . grad c: yep . who are doing this . professor b: so this is not a complicated negotiation . there 's there 's not seven committees , or anything , right ? grad c: no . no , this is very straightforward . professor b: great . so this is just trying to it 's a design thing , not a political thing . once we 've eh we can just sort of agree on what oughta be done . grad c: yeah . professor b: good . grad c: exactly . and , um and , uh however , the , uh e so that you understand , it is really simple . uh you you have a route , and you cut it up in different pieces . and every every element of that e r r f of that every segment we call a `` route element `` . and so , from a to b we cut up in three different steps , and every step has a `` from object `` where you start , a `` to object `` where y where you sort of end , and some points of interest along the way . what w i was sort of missing here , and uh , maybe it was just me being too stupid , is , i did n't sort of get the the notion of the global goal of the whole route . really , s was not straightforward visibly for me . and some other stuff . and i suggested that they should n be k uh , kind enough to do s two things for us , is one , um , also allocating , uh , some tags for our action schema enter - vista - approach , and and also , um , since you had suggested that that , um , we figure out if we ever , for a demo reason , wanted to shortcut directly to the g gis and the planner , of how we can do it . now , what 's the state of the art of getting to entrances , um , what 's the syntax for that , how get getting to vista points and calculating those on the spot . and the approach mode , anyhow , is the default . that 's all they do it these days . wherever you 'll find a route planner it n does nothing but get to the closest point where the street network is at minimal distance to the geometric center . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: so . professor b: so , well , let now , this is important . let , uh i want a a again , outside of m almost managerial point , um you 're in the midst of this , so you know better . but it seems to me it 's probably a good idea to li uh minimize the number of uh , change requests we make of them . so it seemed to me , what we ought to do is get our story together . ok ? and think about it some , internally , before asking them to make changes . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh . does this does this make sense to you guys ? it i mean you 're you 're doing the the interaction but it seemed to me that what we ought to do is come up with a uh , something where you , um and i i do n't know who 's mok working most closely on it . probably johno . ok . uh , take what they have , send it to everybody saying `` this is what they have , this is what we think we should add `` , ok ? and then have a d a an iteration within our group saying `` hmm , well `` ok ? and get our best idea of what we should add . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then go back to them . is i or , i do n't know does this make sense to you ? or grad c: yeah . especially if we want sort of , what i my feeling was eh we we sort of reserved something that has a r eh an ok label . that 's th that was my th first sort of step . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: i w no matter how we want to call it , this is sort of our playground . professor b: right . grad c: and if we get something in there that is a structure elaborate and and and and and complex enough to to to maybe enable a whole simulation , one of these days , that would be u the the perfect goal . professor b: right . that 's right . so . so , yeah . the problem is n't the short ra range optimization . it 's the sort of o one or two year kind of thing . ok . what are the thl class of things we think we might try to do in a year or two ? how how would we try to characterize those and what do we want to request now that 's leave enough space to do all that stuff ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: yep . professor b: and that re that requires some thought . grad c: yep . professor b: and so that sounds like a great thing to do as the priority item um , as soon as we can do it . grad c: yep . professor b: so y so you guys will send to the rest of us um a version of um , this , and the uh , description grad a: with sugge yeah , suggested improvements and professor b: well b yeah . so , the the uh not everyone uh , reads german , so if you 'd um grad a: mmm . professor b: tu uh , tur change the description to , uh , english grad a: ok . professor b: and , um , then then , yeah . then , with some sug s suggestions about where where do we go from here ? grad a: ok . professor b: uh , this and this , of course , was just the action end . uh , at some point we 're going to have to worry about the language end . but for the moment just uh , t for this class of of things , we might want to try to encompass . and grad a: then the scope of this is beyond approach and vis - or vista . yeah , yeah . professor b: oh , yeah , yeah yeah yeah . this is this is everything that that , um , you know , um we might want to do in the next couple years . grad a: yeah , yeah . so what would grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . professor b: we do n't i mean , that 's an issue . we do n't know what , entirely . grad a: uh , yeah . but i 'm just but the yeah , ok . so i just this xml stuff here just has to do with source - path - goal type stuff , in terms of traveling through heidelberg . grad c: hmm . grad a: or travel , specifically . professor b: right . grad a: so , but this o is the domain greater than that ? professor b: no . grad a: ok . professor b: i think i think the i the idea is that oh . it 's beyond source - path - goal , but i think we do n't need to get beyond it @ @ { comment } tourists in heidelberg . grad a: ok . professor b: it seems to me we can get all the complexity we want in actions and in language without going outside of tourists in heidelberg . ok ? but you know , i depending on what people are interested in , one could have , uh , tours , one could have um , explanations of why something is is , you know , why why was this done , or i mean , no there 's no end to the complexity you can build into the uh , what a tourist in heidelberg might ask . grad a: mmm . professor b: so , at least unless somebody else wants t to suggest otherwise i think the general domain we do n't have t to uh , broaden . that is , tourists in heidelberg . and if there 's something somebody comes up with that ca n't be done that way , then , sure . w we 'll we 'll look at that , but uh i 'd be s i i 'd be surprised at if there 's any important issue that that and , um i mean if if you want to uh , push us into reference problems , that would be great . phd f: ok . professor b: ok , so this is his specialty is reference , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and you know , what what are these things referring to ? not only anaphora , but , uh , more generally the , uh this whole issue of , uh , referring expressions , and , what is it that they 're actually dealing with in the world ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , again , this is li in the databa this is also pretty well formed because there is an ontology , and the database , and stuff . so it is n't like , um , you know , the evening star or stuff like that . phd f: right . professor b: i i it all the entities do have concrete reference . although th the to get at them from a language may not be trivial . phd f: right . professor b: there are n't really deep mysteries about um , what w what things the system knows about . phd f: right . right . and you have both proper names and descriptions professor b: all those things . phd f: and y and you can ask for it . professor b: yeah . you have proper names , and descriptions . grad c: mm - hmm . phd f: right . professor b: and a l and a lot and and anaphora , and pronouns , grad c: nuh . phd f: ok . right . professor b: and all those things . phd f: right . grad c: now , we hav the the whole unfortunately , the whole database is , uh , in german . we have just commissioned someone to translate some bits of it , ie the e the shortest k the the more general descriptions of all the objects and , um , persons and events . so , it 's a relational database with persons , events , and , um , objects . and it 's it 's quite , um , there . but did y i uh i think there will be great because the reference problem really is not trivial , even if you have such a g well - defined world . professor b: he knows . grad c: ah - he you are not , uh , throwing uh , uh , carrying owls to athens . grad a: could you give me an example of a reference problem ? so so l i can make it more concrete ? grad c: well how do i get to the powder - tower ? we sort of t think that our bit in this problem is interesting , but , just to get from powder - tower to an object i id in a database is also not really trivial . phd f: or or if you take something even more scary , um , `` how do i get to the third building after the tower ? the ple - powder - tower ? `` grad a: mmm . phd f: uh , you need some mechanism for professor b: yeah . or , you know , the church across from city hall , or grad a: or the re the restaurant where they wear lederhosen ? grad c: or the phd f: right . grad a: or is that professor b: yeah , that would be fine . grad a: ok . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . grad c: o or or tower , or this tower , or that building , or phd f: right . grad e: uniquely . grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . trying to professor b: or you can say `` how `` you know , `` how do i get back ? `` grad a: yeah , yeah . professor b: ok . and , again , it 's just a question of which of these things , uh , people want to dive into . what , uh , i think i 'm gon na try to do , and i guess , pwww ! let 's say that by the end of spring break , i 'll try to come up with some general story about , um , construction grammar , and what constructions we 'd use and how all this might fit together . there 's this whole framework problem that i 'm feeling really uncomfortable about . and i have n't had a chance to think about it seriously . but i i want to i want to do that early , rather than late . and you and i will probably have to talk about this some . grad c: u u u u that 's what strikes me , that we sort of the de g uh , small something , uh , maybe we should address one of these days , is to that most of the work people actually always do is look at some statements , and and analyze those . whether it 's abstracts or newspapers and stuff like this . professor b: hmm . grad c: but the whole i is it is it really relevant that we are dealing mostly with , sort of , questions ? professor b: oh , yeah ? grad c: uh , you know professor b: well , i mean yeah , i d grad c: and this is it seems to me that we should maybe at least spend a session or or brainstorm a little bit about whether that l this is special case in that sense . grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , i do n't know . you know did we ever find m metaphorical use in in questions in in that sense , really ? professor b: yeah . grad d: professor b: you will . grad c: and how soon , professor b: oh , yeah . grad c: i do n't know . professor b: i mean , uh , we could take all the standard metaphor examples and make question versions of them . ok . grad c: `` who got kicked out of france ? `` phd f: muh professor b: yeah , or , you know . `` wh - why is he why is he pushing for promotion ? `` grad c: nuh . phd f: right . professor b: or , `` who 's pushing proof `` grad c: nuh . professor b: er , just pick pick any of them and just do the eh grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so i do n't i do n't think , uh , it 's at all difficult uh , to convert them to question forms that really exist and people say all the time , um and sort of we do n't know how to handle them , too . right ? i mean , it 's i d it we do n't know how to handle the declarative forms , @ @ { comment } really , and , then , the interrogative forms , ah - oh . uh . yeah . grad d: ooo ! professor b: nancy , it looked like you were s grad e: oh . it 's just that that the goals are g very different to cases so we had this problem last year when we first thought about this domain , actually , was that most of the things we talked about are our story understanding . professor b: right . grad e: uh , we 're gon na have a short discourse and the person talking is trying to , i do n't know , give you a statement and tell you something . and here , it 's th grad c: help you create a mental model , blah - blah - blah . yeah . grad e: yea - eh y yeah , i guess so . professor b: yes . grad e: and then here , y you are j uh , the person is getting information and they or may not be following some larger plan , you know , that we have to recognize or , you know , infer . and th th the their discourse patterns probably do n't follo follow quite as many logical connec professor b: right . no , i think that 's one of things that 's interesting , is is in this sort of over - arching story we we worked it out for th as you say , this the storytelling scenario . grad e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: and i think it 's really worth thinking through what it looks like . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: what is the simspec mean , et cetera . grad e: mm - hmm . m right . cuz for a while we were thinking , `` well , how can we change the , um , data to sort of illicit tha illicit , um , actions that are more like what we are used to ? `` but obviously we would rather , you know , try to figure out what 's what 's , you know professor b: well , i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe that 's what we 'll do is is s u e we can do anything we want with it . i mean , once we have fulfilled these requirements , grad e: yep . mmm mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: ok , and the one for next uh , summer is just half done and then the other half is this , um , `` generation thing `` which we think is n't much different . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so once that 's done , then all the rest of it is , uh , sort of , you know , what we want to do for the research . and we can w we can do all sorts of things that do n't fit into their framework at all . th - there 's no reason why we 're c we 're constrained to do that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: if we can use all the , uh , execution engines , then we can , you know , really try things that would be too too much pain to do ourselves . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but there 's no obligation on any of this . so , if we want to turn it into u understan standing stories about heidelberg , we can do that . i mean , that would just be a t a um grad c: or , as a matter of fact , we need and if we if we ' r eh take a ten year perspective , we need to do that , because w e w a assuming we have this , um , we we ta in that case we actually do have these wonderful stories , and historical anecdotes , professor b: yeah . grad c: and knights jumping out of windows , grad e: mmm . grad c: and - and - and { comment } { comment } tons of stuff . so , th the database is huge , and if we want to answer a question on that , we actually have to go one step before that , and understand that . in order to e do sensible information extraction . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: you might , yeah . grad c: and so , um , this has been a a a deep map research issue that was is is part of the unresolved , and to - do 's , and something for the future , is how can we sort of run our our text , our content , through a machine that will enable us , later , to retrieve or answer e questions more sensibly ? phd f: mwa mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . mmm . professor b: right . anyway . s who 's going ? phd f: so , uh so , uh , i was just going to ask , um , so , what is the the basic thing that that you are , um , obligated to do , um , uh , by the summer before w uh y c we can move professor b: ah ! ok . so eh yeah . so , what happened is , there 's this , eh , uh robert was describing the there 's two packages there 's a , uh , quote parser , there 's a particular piece of this big system , which , in german , uh , takes these t sentence templates and produces xml structures . and one of our jobs was to make the english equivalent of that . phd f: right . professor b: that , these guys did in a in a day . phd f: right . right . professor b: the other thing is , at the other end , roughly at the same level , there 's something that takes , uh , x m l structures , produces an output xml structure which is instructions for the generator . phd f: right . professor b: ok ? and then there 's a language generator , and then after that a s a synthesizer that goes from an xml structure to , uh , language generation , to actual specifications for a synthesizer . eh , but again , there 's one module in which there 's one piece that we have to convert to english . phd f: right . right . got it . professor b: is that ok . and that but as i say , this is all along was viewed as a kind of a m a minor thing , necessary , but but not phd f: right . professor b: ok ? phd f: right . professor b: and much more interesting is the fact that , as part of doing this , we we are , you know , inheriting this system that does all sort of these other things . phd f: that 's great ! right . professor b: not precisely what we want , and that 's that 's wh where it it gets difficult . and i i do n't pretend to understand yet what i think we really ought to do . grad c: ok . so , e enough of that , but i , uh , um , mmm , the e sort of , johno and i will take up that responsibility , and , um , get a first draft of that . now , we have um just , i think two more short things . professor b: ok . grad c: um , y you guys sort of started fighting , uh , on the bayes - net `` noisy - or `` front ? grad d: hmm . yeah , i thought i should , um , talk a little bit about that , because that might be a good , uh , sort of architecture to have , in general for , uh , problems with , you know , multiple inputs to a node . professor b: good ! ok . good . and what 's the other one ? so that just we know what the d agenda is ? grad c: um , the wu paper , i think maybe professor b: oh , yeah . i 've got a couple new wu papers as well . uh , so i i 've been in contact with wu , so , probably let 's put that off till i i till i understand better , uh , what he 's doing . it 's just a little embarrassing cause all this was in his thesis and i was on his thesis committee , and , so , i r really knew this at one time . phd f: ugh . professor b: but , i i it 's not only uh is part of what i have n't figured out yet is is how all this goes together . so i 'll dig up some more stuff from dekai . and so why do n't we just do the , uh grad d: ok . so should i is there a white board here that i can use ? professor b: yeah . you could grad d: uh grad e: yeah . professor b: squealing sound ? grad d: or shall i just use this ? professor b: it 's probably just as easy . i phd f: yeah . grad d: yeah . grad a: you can put the microphone in your pocket . grad d: hey ! grad a: i was envying you and your pocket cause i do n't have one . grad e: it was a quick one , huh ? professor b: that 's why they invented `` pocket t 's `` . grad a: exactly grad e: they have clips ! grad d: yeah . grad e: huh . grad d: so , um recall that , uh , we want to have this kind of structure in our bayes - nets . namely , that , um you have these nodes that have several bands , right ? so does i mean , they sort of the typical example is that , um , these are all a bunch of cues for something , and this is a certain effect that we 'd like to conclude . so , uh like , let 's just look at the case when , um , this is actually the the final action , right ? so this is like , uh , you know , touch , grad c: y grad d: or grad c: e - eva grad d: sorry . uh grad c: grad d: yeah , e - eva , right ? grad c: yeah . grad d: enter , v view , approach , right ? phd f: w what was this ? it i i i ehhh , { comment } i ehhh . professor b: wri - write it out for for grad d: so , this is yeah . enter , phd f: i mean grad d: view , approach . phd f: ok . right . grad d: right . so , i mean , we 'd like to take all these various cues , right ? phd f: like the army . grad d: so this one might be , say , uh grad e: new terminology ? phd f: yeah . grad c: hmm ? grad d: well , let me pick a random one grad e: i have n't heard that before . grad d: and say , uh i do n't know , it could be , like this is n't the way it really is , but let me say that , suppose someone mentioned , uh , admission fees ah , it takes too long . try let me just say `` landmark `` . if the thing is a landmark , you know , um then there 's another thing that says if um if it 's closed or not , at the moment . alright , so you have nodes . right ? and the , uh , problem that we were having was that , you know , given n - nodes , there 's `` two to the n `` given n - nodes , and furthermore , the fact that there 's three things here , we need to specify `` three times `` , uh , `` two to the n `` probabilities . right ? that 's assuming these are all binary , which f they may not be . for example , they could be `` time of day `` , in which case we could , uh , say , you know , `` morning , afternoon , evening , night `` . so , this could be more so , it 's a lot , anyway . and , that 's a lot of probabilities to put here , which is kind of a pain . so noisy - ors are a way to , uh , sort of deal with this . um where should i put this ? so , the idea is that , um , let 's call these , uh , c - one , c - two , c - three , and c - four , and e , for cause and effect , i guess . the idea is to have these intermediate nodes . right . well , actually , the idea , first of all , is that each of these things has a quote - unquote distinguished state , which means that this is the state in which we do n't really know anything about it . so right ? so , for example , if we do n't really know if the thing is a landmark or not , or , i if that just does n't seem relevant , then that would be th sort of the disting - the distinguish state . it 's a really , you know , if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee , you know , if they did n't talk about it , that would be the distinguish state . grad c: s so , this is a fanciful way of saying `` default `` ? grad d: so yeah , yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: that 's just what they the word they used in that paper . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so , the idea is that , um , you have these intermediate nodes , right ? e - one , e - two , e - three and e - four ? professor b: so , this is the heckerman paper you 're working with ? good . grad d: yeah . so the idea is that , each of these ei is represents what this would be if all the other ones were in the distinguish state . right ? so , for example , suppose that the person i mean , suppose the thing that they talked about is a landmark . but none of the other sort of cues really apply . then , this would be w the this would just represent the probability distribution of this , assuming that this cue is turned on and the other ones just did n't apply ? so , you know , if it is a landmark , and no none of the other things really ap applicable , then this would represent the probability distribution . so maybe in this case maybe we just t k maybe we decide that , if the thing 's a landmark and we do n't know anything else , then we 're gon na conclude that , um they want to view it with probability , you know , point four . they want to enter it with probability , uh with probability point five and they want to approach it probability point one , say right ? so we come up with these l little tables for each of those ok . and the final thing is that , um this is a deterministic function of these , so we do n't need to specify any probabilities . we just have to , um , say what function this is , right ? so we can let this be , um g of e - one comma e - two . e - three , e - four . right ? and our example g would be , um , a majority vote ? right ? professor b: well . ok , so th so the important point is w not what the g function is . the important point is that um there is a a a general kind of idea of shortcutting the full cpt . th - c the full conditional probability table with some function . ok ? which y w you choose appropriately for each case . so , depending on what your situation is , there are different functions which are most appropriate . and so i gave eh bhaskara a copy of this , eh sort of `` ninety - two `` { comment } paper . d and you got one , robert . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: i do n't know who else has seen it . grad d: there 's i mean yeah . it 's heckerman and breese . professor b: it 's short . it 's short . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , i u w um , yo uh you have you read it yet ? grad d: uh , you can yeah , you should take a look at it , i guess . grad a: ok professor b: ok , so you should take a look . nancy , i 'm sure you read it at some point in life . grad e: i yeah . i i think so , yeah . professor b: ok . and so , you other guys can decide how interested grad e: yeah , @ @ . professor b: anyway . so the paper is n't th is n't real hard . phd f: ok . professor b: and uh one of the questions just come at bhaskara is , `` how much of this does javabayes support ? `` grad d: yeah , it 's a good question . um the so what we want , is basically javabayes to support deterministic , uh , functions . professor b: right . grad d: and , um in a sense it sup we can make it supported by , um , manually , uh , entering , you know , probabilities that are one and zeros , right ? professor b: right . so the little handout that the little thing that i sent i sent a message saying , uh , here is a way to take one thing you could do , which is kind of s in a way , stupid , is take this deterministic function , and use it to build the cpt . so , if ba - javabayes wo n't do it for you , grad c: mmm . professor b: that you can convert all that into what the cpt would be . um and , what i sent out about a week ago , was an idea of how to do that , for , um , evidence combination . so one of one function that you could use as your `` g function `` is an e e evidence - combining . so you just take the uh , if each of th if each of the ones has its own little table like that , then you could take the , uh , strength of each of those , times its little table , and you 'd add up the total evidence for `` v `` , `` e `` , and `` a `` . grad d: mmm . i do n't think you can do this , because g is a function from that to that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: yep . right . grad d: right ? so there 's no numbers . there 's just quadruplets of well , n - duplets of , uh , e vs . professor b: i i i no , no but i 'm saying is there there is a w i mean , if y if if you decide what 's what is appropriate , is probablistic evidence combination , you can write a function that does it . it 's a pui it 's actually one of the examples he 's got in there . but , anyway , s skipping skipping the question of exactly which functions now is it clear that you might like to be able to shortcut the whole conditional probability table . grad c: i mean , in some it seems very plausible in some sense , where we will be likely to not be observe some of the stuff . cuz we do n't have the a access to the information . grad d: oops , { comment } sorry . professor b: right . that 's one of the problems , is , w is is , where would th where would it all come from ? grad c: yeah . so . grad d: is oh , right . w would not be ab able to observe grad e: mmm . grad d: what ? grad c: i if it 's a a a discar discourse initial phrase , we will have nothing in the discourse history . so , if if we ever want to wonder what was mention grad d: oh oh . a are you saying that we 'll not be able to observe certain nodes ? that 's fine . that is sort of orthogonal thing . professor b: yeah , so there 's there 's two separate things , robert . the f the the the bayes - nets in general are quite good at saying , `` if you have no current information about this variable just take the prior for that . `` ok ? th - that 's what they 're real good at . so , if you do n't have any information about the discourse , you just use your priors of of whatever eh the discourse uh , eh , basically whatever w it 's probabilistically , whatever it would be . and it 's it 's sort of not a great estimate , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's the best one you have , and , so forth . so that , they 're good at . but the other problem is , how do you fill in all these numbers ? and i think that 's the one he was getting at . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah . so , specifically in this case you have to f have this many numbers , grad e: yeah . grad d: whereas in this case you just have to have three for this , three for this , three for this . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so you have to have just three n ? so , this is much smaller than that . grad a: asymptotically . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: well , pretty quickly . grad d: yeah . right . grad a: u yeah , yeah . professor b: i mean grad e: so , you do n't need da data enough to cover uh , nearly as much stuff . grad d: i do n't know . grad a: so , really , i what a a noisy - or seems to kind of `` neural - net - acize `` these bayes - nets ? professor b: eh well to some no , no . so , `` noisy - or `` is a funny way of referring to this , because the noisy - or is only one instance . grad d: yeah . this is n't a noisy - or anymore . professor b: that one actually is n't a noisy - or . so we 'll have to think of of a way t t grad a: yeah . grad d: it 's a noisy - arg - max or a noisy - whatever . professor b: yeah , whatever . yeah . so eh { comment } um grad a: well , my point was more that we just eh with the neural net , right , eh , things come in , you have a function that combines them and professor b: yeah , it it tha - that 's true . it is a is also more neural - net - like , although uh , it is n't necessarily sum uh , s you know , sum of weights or anything like that . grad a: right . professor b: i mean i you could have , uh , like the noisy - or function , really is one that 's essentially says , uh , take the max . grad d: well , the `` or `` . professor b: same . grad d: right . i guess you 're right . yeah . professor b: uh but anyway . so and , i thi i think that 's the standard way people get around the uh there are a couple other ones . there are ways of breaking this up into s to to subnets and stuff like that . but , um the i think we definitely i think it 's a great idea tha to to pursue that . grad d: yep . so grad c: wha - still sort of leaves one question . it i mean you you can always uh see easily that that i 'm not grasping everything correctly , but what seemed attractive to me in im uh in the last discussion we had , was that we find out a means of of getting these point four , point five , point one , of c - four , not because , you know , a is a landmark or not , but we we we label this whatever object type , and if it 's a garden , it 's point three , point four , point two . if it 's a castle , it 's point eight , point one , point one . if it 's , uh , a town hall , it 's point two , point three , point five . professor b: right . grad c: and so forth . and we do n't want to write this down necessarily every time for something but , uh let 's see . grad d: it 'll be students where else would it be stored ? that 's the question . grad c: well , in the beginning , we 'll write up a flat file . professor b: oh . grad c: we know we have twenty object types professor b: yeah . grad c: and we 'll write it down in a flat file . professor b: no . so , i is well , let me say something , guys , cuz there 's not there 's a pretty point about this we might as well get in right now . which is the hierarchy that s comes with the ontology is just what you want for this . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so that uh , if you know about it let 's say , a particular town hall that , it 's one that is a monument , then , that would be stored there . if you do n't , you look up the hierarchy , eh so , you you you may or so , then you 'd have this little vector of , um , you know , approach mode or eva mode . let 's ok , so we have the eva vector for for various kinds of landmarks . if you know it for a specific landmark you put it there . if you do n't , you just go up the hierarchy to the first place you find one . grad d: ok . so , is the idea to put it in the ontology ? professor b: absolutely . grad d: ok . professor b: uh , or , link to or but but in any case i view it logically as being in the ontology . it 's part of what you know about a an object , is its eva vector . grad d: ok . professor b: and , if yo as i say , if you know about a specific object , you put it there . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: this is part of what dekai was doing . so , when we get to wu , the - e we 'll see w what he says about that . grad d: right . professor b: and , then if you if it is n't there , it 's higher , and if you do n't know anything except that it 's a b it 's it 's a building , then up at the highest thing , you have the pr what amounts to a prior . if you do n't know anything else about a building , uh , you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level , grad d: right . professor b: which might be equal , or whatever it is . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , that 's a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology . and it seems to me the obvious thing to do , unless we find a reason to do something different . grad d: yeah . professor b: does this make sense to you ? grad d: so professor b: bhask - ? grad d: yeah . so , we are but we we 're not doing the ontology , so we have to get to whoever is doing the u ultimately , professor b: indeed . so , that 's another thing we 're gon na need to do , is is , to , either grad d: we have to get them to professor b: we 're gon na need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology , or add fields , or { comment } { comment } some way to associate or , w it may be that all we can do is , um , some of our own hash tables that it th - the th you know , there 's always a way to do that . it 's a just a question of grad a: yeah , hash on object name to , you know , uh , the probabilities or whatever . professor b: i th yeah . e right . and , so , i uh grad c: but it 's , uh well , it strikes me as a what for if we get the mechanism , that will be sort of the wonderful part . and then , how to make it work is is the second part , in the sense that i mean , m the guy who was doing the ontology eh , eh , s ap apologized that i it will take him another through two to three days because they 're having really trouble getting the upper level straight , and right now . the reason is , given the craw bet uh , the the the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and , on all history , they 're really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the eml projects , and that 's , uh , uh , sort of a tough cookie , a little bit tougher than they figured . i could have told them s so . professor b: right . yeah . grad c: uh . but , nevertheless , it 's going to be there by n by , uh , next monday and i will show you what 's what some examples from that for towers , and stuff . and , um , what i do n't think is ever going to be in the ontology , is sort of , you know , the likelihood of , eh , people entering r town halls , and looking at town halls , and approaching town halls , especially since we are b dealing with a case - based , not an instance - based ontology . so , there will be nothing on on that town hall , or on the berkeley town hall , or on the heidelberg town hall , it 'll just be information on town halls . professor b: well , they they they how ar what are they gon na do with instances ? grad c: but what professor b: i mean , you y grad c: well , that 's hhh . that 's that 's al different question . i mean , th the first , they had to make a design question , `` do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not , that just has the types ? `` professor b: ok . grad c: and , so , since the d decision was on types , on a d simply type - based , we now have to hook it up to instances . i mean this is professor b: but what i what is smartkom gon na do about that ? grad c: one professor b: cuz , they have instances all the time . grad c: yeah , but the ontology is really not a smartkom thing , in in and of itself . that 's more something that i kicked loose in in eml . so it 's a completely eml thing . professor b: but uh uh smartkom 's gon na need an ontology . grad c: yes , u a w a lot of people are aware of that . professor b: i understand , but is anybody doing anything about it ? grad c: um professor b: ok . it 's a political problem . we wo n't worry about it . grad c: no , but th the r eh i th i still think that there is enough information in there . for example , whether ok . so , th it will know about the twenty object types there are in the world . let 's assume there are only twenty object types in this world . and it will know if any of those have institutional meanings . so , in a sense , `` i `` used as institutions for some s in some sense or the other . which makes them enterable . right ? in a sense . professor b: yeah . anyway . so we may have to grad c: you know . professor b: this is with the whole thing , grad c: yep . professor b: we may have to build another data stru grad c: yep . professor b: conceptually , we know what should be done . when we see what people have done , it may turn out that the easiest thing to do is to build a a separate thing that that just pools i i like , i i it it may be , that , the the instance w that we have to build our own instance , uh , things , that , with their types , grad d: yeah , it 's right , we can just assume professor b: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type . so we build a little data structure and so what we would do in that case , is , in our instance gadget have our e v and if we d there is n't one we 'd get the type and then have the e v as for the type . so we 'd have our own little , uh , eva tree . and then , for other , uh , vectors that we need . grad d: yeah . right . professor b: so , we 'd have our own little things so that whenever we needed one , we 'd just use the ontology to get the type , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: and then would hash or whatever we do to say , `` ah ! grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: if it 's that type of thing , and we want its eva vector , pppt - pppt ! { comment } it 's that . `` so , i i think we can handle that . and then but , the combination functions , and whether we can put those in java bayes , and all that sort of stuff , is , uh is the bigger deal . grad d: yeah . professor b: i think that 's where we have to get technically clever . grad a: we could just steal the classes in javabayes and then interface to them with our own code . grad d: um professor b: well , i me ye eh , yeah , the grad d: that requires understanding the classes in javabayes , i guess . @ @ . professor b: yeah , i mean , it 's , uh , e e e e e cute . i mean , you 've been around enough to i mean just ? grad a: well , it depends on professor b: i mean , there 's this huge package which which may or may not be consistent and you know . but , yeah , we could look at it . grad a: well , i was j ok . yeah . professor b: yeah . it 's b it it 's an inter sort of a kind of a it the thing is , it 's kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form , and if you say , `` hey , we 're gon na make a different kind of data structure to stick in there `` grad a: well , no , but that just means there 's a protocol , right ? that you could professor b: it may or may not . i do n't know . that 's the question is `` to what extent does it allow us to put in these g functions ? `` and i do n't know . grad a: well , no , but i mean what i uh the so you could have four different bayes - nets that you 're running , and then run your own write your own function that would take the output of those four , and make your own `` g function `` , is what i was saying . professor b: yeah , that 's fine if it 's if it comes only at the end . but suppose you want it embedded ? grad a: well , then you 'd have to break all of your bayes - nets into smaller bayes - nets , with all the professor b: oh , that yeah , that 's a truly horrible way to do d it . one would hope grad a: yeah , but i 'm just grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , you bet . but , at that point you may say , `` hey , java bayes is n't the only package in town . let 's see if there 's another package that 's , eh , more civilized about this . `` grad d: professor b: now , srini is worth talking to on this , grad d: mmm . professor b: cuz he said that he actually did hack some combining functions into but he does n't remember at least when i talked to him , he did n't remember whether it was an e an easy thing , a natural thing , or whether he had to do some violence to it to make it work . grad d: ah ! professor b: uh . but he did do it . grad d: yeah . i do n't see why the , uh , combining f functions have to be directly hacked into i mean , they 're used to create tables so we can just make our own little functions that create tables in xml . professor b: well , i say that 's one way to do it , is is to just convert it int into a into a c p t that you zip it 's blown up , and is a it 's , uh it 's huge , but it does n't require any data fitting or complication . grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . i do n't think i mean , the fact that it blown u blows up is a huge issue in the sense that i mean , ok . so say it blows up , right ? so there 's , like , the you know , ten , f ten , fifteen , uh , things . it 's gon na be like , two to the that , which is n't so bad . professor b: i i understand . i 'm just saying tha that w that was wi that was my note . the little note i sent said that . it said , `` here 's the way you 'd take the logical f g function and turn it into a cpt . `` grad d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean that the max - the evidence - combining function . so we could do that . and maybe that 's what we 'll do . but , um do n't know . so , i will , e e before next week , uh , @ @ { comment } p push push some more on on this stuff that dekai wu did , and try to understand it . uh , you 'll make a couple of more copies of the heckerman paper to give to people ? grad d: p sure . phd f: yeah , i i would like a copy , professor b: ok . grad d: ok . phd f: y y yeah . professor b: and , um phd f: ok . professor b: i think grad c: ok . and i i 'll i 'll think s through this , uh , eh getting eva vectors dynamically out of ontologies one more time because i s i i i 'm not quite sure whether we all think of the same thing or not , here . professor b: well , you and i should talk about it . grad c: yeah , uh - huh . ok . professor b: alright , great ! and , robert , thank you for coming in under he he 's been sick , robert . grad c: und . grad a: i was thinking maybe we should just cough into the microphone and see if they ca n't th see if they can handle it . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . grad e: sure . grad c: um is this , uh { disfmarker }

as the data collection is about to begin , there are some minor changes to be done in the design of the experiment , the script and the permission forms . subjects can be recruited either from within the university or through other social circles .

what did the team say about interaction of data participants with their data ? </s> grad a: yeah , i think i got my mike on . ok . let 's see . professor b: ok . ami , do yours then we 'll open it and i think it 'll be enough . grad a: mmm does n't , uh it should be the other way . yeah , now it 's on . phd f: right . ok . professor b: ok . so , we all switched on ? grad a: we are all switched on , yeah . professor b: alright . anyway . so , uh , before we get started with the , uh , technical part , i just want to review what i think is happening with the our data collection . phd f: we are all switched on . professor b: so uh , probably after today , that should n't come up in this meeting . th - this this is s should be im it is n't there 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . but , uh , i just want to make sure we 're all together on this . what we think is gon na happen is that , uh , in parallel starting about now we 're gon na get fey to , where you 're working with me and robert , draft a note that we 're gon na send out to various cogsci c and other classes saying , `` here 's an opportunity to be a subject . contact fey . `` and then there 'll be a certain number of um , hours during the week which she will be available and we 'll bring in people . uh , roughly how many , robert ? we d do we know ? grad c: um , fifty was our sort of our first professor b: ok . so , we 're looking for a total of fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with with that . in parallel with that , we 're gon na need to actually do the script . and , so , i guess there 's a plan to have a meeting friday afternoon uh , with uh , jane , and maybe liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . but what i 'd like to do , if it 's o k , is to s to , as i say , start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . the week after that 's spring break , and maybe we 'll look for them some subjects next door grad c: yeah . professor b: or i grad c: yeah . also , fey will not be here during spring break . professor b: oh , ok , then we wo n't do it . grad c: so . professor b: ok . so that 's easy . um . so , is is that make sense to everybody ? grad c: yeah . also , um , f both fey and i will , um , do something of which i may , eh kindly ask you to to do the same thing , which is we gon na check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects . meaning , um , kid children 's gymnastic classes , pre - school parents and so forth . they also sometimes have flexible schedules . so , if you happen to be sort of in a non - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects we also considered using the berkeley high school and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff . professor b: that 's a good idea . grad c: and , um . so that 's as far as our brainstorming was concerned . professor b: oh , yeah . the high school 's a great idea . grad c: so . but i i will just make a first draft of the , uh , note , the `` write - up `` note , send it to you and fey and then professor b: and why do n't you also copy jane on it ? grad c: and , um , are we have we concurred that , uh , these these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ? professor b: uh , th i think they 're necessary . this the permission form . grad c: mmm . professor b: uh , there has to be one , grad c: nuh . n . professor b: and i think we 're just gon na use it as it is , and um grad c: n . you happy with that ? professor b: well , yeah . there 's one tricky part about , um , they have the right um i the last paragraph { comment } `` if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . `` ok ? now that , we had to be included for this other one which might have , uh , meetings , you know , about something . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: in this case , it does n't really make sense . um , so what i 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying `` i do n't want to see the final transcript `` . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and if they do n't if they say `` no , i 'm not willing to sign that `` , then we 'll show them the final transcript . but , um . grad c: yep . makes sense . professor b: that , uh yeah , so we might actually , um s i jane may say that , `` you know , you ca n't do this `` , uh , `` on the same form , we need a separate form . `` but anyway . i 'd i 'd i 'd like to , e e um , add an a little thi eh a thing for them to initial , saying `` nah , do i do n't want to see the final transcript . `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , uh , rec you know . and so forth . so i think we just go with it . grad c: yeah . yeah . ok . so much for the data , except that with munich everything is fine now . they 're gon na transcribe . they 're also gon na translate the , uh , german data from the tv and cinema stuff for andreas . so . they 're they all seem to be happy now , with that . so . w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ? professor b: yep . grad c: well i guess the good good news of last week was the parser . so , um bhaskara and i started working on the the parser . then bhaskara went to class and once he came back , um , it was finished . so . it , uh i did n't measure it , but it was about an hour and ten minutes . grad d: yep . grad c: and , um and now it 's we have a complete english parser that does everything the german parser does . grad d: something like that . professor b: which is not a lot . but grad d: that 's the , uh , point . grad c: the uh , that 's not a lot . professor b: ok . grad d: yes . professor b: right . grad c: and um . grad e: what did you end up having to do ? i mean , wha was there anything interesting about it at all ? grad c: well , if you , eh grad d: we 'll show you . professor b: yeah , we can show us , grad e: or are we gon na see that ? professor b: right ? grad c: well , w w we d the first we did is we we tried to to do change the the `` laufen `` into `` run `` , or `` running `` , or `` runs `` . professor b: yep . grad c: and we noticed that whatever we tried to do , it no effect . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and we were puzzled . grad e: ok . grad c: and , uh , the reason was that the parser i c completely ignores the verb . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: so this sentence sentence is parses the p the same output , grad e: hmm . interesting parser property . grad c: um , even if you leave out , um , all all of this . grad e: i see . yeah . grad c: so it 's basically feature film and tv . grad e: today grad c: that 's what you need . grad e: ok . grad c: if if you 'd add add today and evening , it 'll add time or not . grad e: and the t and the time , right ? grad c: so it i it does look at that . grad e: ok . grad c: but all the rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser . grad e: true . professor b: so , you can sho you you are are you gon na show us the little templates ? grad c: and grad e: s grad c: yeah . we ar we can sh er i can show you the templates . i i also have it running here , grad e: the former end g `` oh , i see . uh - huh . grad c: so if i do this now , um , you can see that it parsed the wonderful english sentence , `` which films are on the cinema today evening ? `` but , um . professor b: well , that sounds grad c: uh do do n't worry about it . professor b: no i grad c: it could be `` this evening , which which films are on the cinema `` , or `` running in the cinema , which `` uh , `` today evening `` , uh i `` is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? `` grad e: ok . ok . key words , e basically . professor b: well grad c: ge - elaborate , or , more or less , uh professor b: actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable german orders which are n't allowable english orders and so forth . and it is order - based . so it it is n't it ? grad c: no . grad d: no . professor b: oh . so it it doe i it these u these optional elements , grad c: it is not professor b: it 's it 's actually a set , not a sequence ? grad c: yeah . we were i was afraid that , um professor b: oh ! grad e: so it really is key word matching , basically . professor b: really a se grad c: um . phd f: e yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: oh , wow . grad c: um , i mean , these sentences are just silly . grad e: hmm . grad c: i mean , uh , d these were not the ones we we actually did it . um . what 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? which films are showing ? grad d: are pl playing at the cinema ? grad c: playing ? grad d: yeah . grad e: tonight ? grad d: i changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account . grad e: this this evening ? phd f: actually , you would say , `` which films are on tonight ? `` grad d: you want to get it ? or is di was it easy to get it ? grad c: um . i have no net here . grad d: oh , ok . professor b: do i ? grad c: ok . so . wonderful parse , same thing . um . professor b: right . grad c: except that we d w we do n't have this , uh , time information here now , which is , um oh . this are the reserve . anyways . so . um . these are the sort of the ten different sentence types that the uh the parser was able to do . and it still is , now in english . professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and , um sorry . and , um you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ? grad d: yeah , i mean i changed those sentences to make it , uh , more , uh , idiomatic . and , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . so , in a sense it 's pretty broad . professor b: ok . grad c: ok . so , if you want to look at the templates , they 're conveniently located in a file , `` template `` . um , and this is what i had to do . i had to change , @ @ { comment } `` spielfilm `` to `` film `` , uh , `` film `` to `` movie `` , cinem `` kino `` to `` cinema `` to `` today `` heu `` heute `` to `` today `` , grad e: huh . grad c: evening `` abend `` to `` evening `` professor b: capitalized as well grad a: hmm . grad c: and , um . professor b: y i grad d: one thing i was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the m - three - l basically ? grad c: yep . grad d: ok . grad c: and that 's that 's the next step , professor b: p grad c: but we 'll get to that in a second . professor b: oh . grad c: and so this means , um , `` this `` and `` see `` are not optional . `` want i like `` is all maybe in there , but may also not be in there . professor b: so so , the point is , if it says `` this `` and `` see `` , it also will work in `` see `` and `` this `` ? grad e: s professor b: in the other order ? grad c: yeah . professor b: with those two key words ? grad c: should we try it ? professor b: `` this is the one i want to see `` or whatever . grad c: ok . `` action watch `` , grad d: hmm . grad c: whatever . nothing was specialfi specified . except that it has some references to audio - visual media here . grad d: av medium . grad c: where it gets that from grad d: yeah . grad c: it 's correct , but i do n't know where it gets it from . grad d: `` see `` . grad c: oh , `` see `` . yeah . yeah . yep . ok . grad d: i mean it 's sort of grad c: and `` see this `` { comment } is exactly the same thing . professor b: ok , so it is set - based . alright . grad d: one thing i was wondering was , those percentage signs , right ? so , i mean , why do we even have them ? grad c: yep . grad d: because if you did n't have them grad c: uh , i 'll tell you why . because it gives a you a score . grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: and the value of the score is , v i assume , i guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score it is . grad d: oh . ok . so that 's the main purpose . alright . grad e: it 's a match . phd f: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: ok . grad c: so we we should n't belittle it too much . it 's doing something , some things , and it 's very flexible . i 've just tried to grad e: mm - hmm . grad c: be nice . phd f: right . professor b: no , no . fine . grad e: right yeah . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , flexible it is . phd f: but grad c: ok . um , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . uh but we 'll mmm , that means we may need two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes , professor b: alright . grad c: i hope . grad d: right . grad c: and the next thing i would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be too difficult either , is to say , `` ok let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the the mapping of of , uh , words to the m - three - l but we also wanted to change add a new sentence type and and make up some some new m - three - l s `` professor b: yep . so that 'd be great . it would be a good exercise to just see whether one can get that to run . grad c: see th mm - hmm . yep . and , um , grad d: so , that 's grad c: that 's should n't be too tough . grad d: fine , yeah . yeah , so where are those those functions `` action `` , `` goodbye `` , and so on , right ? are they actually , um , are they going to be called ? um , are they present in the code for the parser ? grad c: yeah . i think what it does , it i i it does something sort of fancy . it loads um it has these style sheets and also the , um , schemata . so what it probably does , is it takes the , uh , um is this where it is ? this is already the xml stuff ? this is where it takes its own , um , syntax , and converts it somehow . um . where is the uh grad d: what are you looking for ? grad c: um , where it actually produces the the xml out of the , uh , parsed stuff . grad d: oh , ok . grad c: no , this is not it . uh . i ca n't find it now . you mean , where the where the act how the action `` goodbye `` maps into something grad d: yeah . grad a: yeah , where are those constructors defined ? grad d: oh . grad c: nope . grad d: no , that 's not it . grad c: yeah . this is sort of what happens . this is what you would need to to change to get the , uh , xml changed . so when it encounts encounters `` day `` , it will , uh , activate those h classes in the in the xml stuff but , um i saw those actions uh , the `` goodbye `` stuff somewhere . hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm . grad a: grep for it ? grad c: yeah . let 's do that . oh . grad d: mmm . m - three - l dot dtd ? grad c: yep . grad d: that 's just a specification for the xml format . grad c: yep . well , we 'll find that out . so whatever n this does i mean this is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ? professor b: hmm ? oh , yeah . grad c: and , um so , whenever it it encounters `` goodbye `` , which we can make it do in a second , here grad a: that function automatically generates an initialized xml structure ? grad c: i grad d: i think each of those functions act on the current xml structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a a l a field to it , or something . professor b: y yeah . they also seem to affect state , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: cause some of them there were other actions uh , that that s seemed to step state variables somewhere , grad d: right . professor b: like the n s `` discourse status confirm `` . ok . so that 's going to be a call on the discourse grad c: yep . professor b: and confirm that it 's grad c: w we mm - hmm grad d: oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree , professor b: i think that 's right . grad c: e grad d: but it 's going to change the event . professor b: i think it 's actually that looks like it 's state modification . grad d: oh . oh . grad c: e mmm um , well i there is a feature called `` discourse - status `` , grad d: when there 's a feature . professor b: yeah . grad c: and so whenever i just say , `` write `` , it will it will put this in here . professor b: oh , so it always just is it so it well , go back , then , cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the xml . grad c: h yep . professor b: uh - huh ! i 'm not i 'm not sure . grad c: so , this professor b: e i 'm not sure e that grad c: um well , we we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , `` goodbye `` , causes it to c to create basically an `` action goodbye - end - action `` . professor b: right . grad c: which is a means of telling the system to shut down . professor b: right . grad c: now , if we know that `` write `` produces a `` feature discourse - status confirm discourse - status `` . so if i now say `` write , goodbye , `` it should do that . it sho it creates this , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: `` confirm goodbye `` . professor b: yep . grad d: right there . but there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put goodbye in content , but , uh , confirm in features ? grad c: oh . it d it n that 's because grad d: so so , it 's not just that it 's adding that field . professor b: right . grad d: it 's professor b: absolutely . good point . grad d: ok . professor b: it 's it 's the it 's under what sub - type you 're doing it . yeah . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad a: it 's mystery functions . grad c: well , sometimes it m sometimes , i grad d: well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably . professor b: yeah , each is s so that 's funny . grad c: when it professor b: you bury the s the state in the function alright . grad c: it grad a: well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right ? professor b: uh grad a: so it 's just a shorthand . professor b: yeah . grad c: for example oh , this is german . sorry . e so , now , this , it can not do anymore . nothing comes out of here . grad a: a `` not a number `` is a value . awesome . grad c: so , it does n't speak german anymore , but it does speak english . and there is , here , a reference so , this tells us that whatever is has the id `` zero `` is referenced here by @ @ { comment } the restriction seed and this is exa `` i want `` what was the sentence ? professor b: `` i want two seats here . `` grad c: `` need two seats here . `` nuh . `` and where is it playing ? `` there should also be a reference to something , maybe . our d this is re um mmm . here , we change and so , we here we add something to the discourse - status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before and , uh and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema . grad a: so then , whatever takes this m - three - l is what actually changes the state , not the yeah , ok . professor b: no , right , the discourse maintainer , grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . i see . and it and it runs around looking for discourse status tags , and doing whatever it does with them . and other people ignore those tags . alright . so , yeah . i definitely think it 's it 's worth the exercise of trying to actually add something that is n't there . grad c: hmm ? professor b: uh disc grad c: sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing . professor b: yeah , a kid understanding what 's going on . then the next thing we talked about is actually , um , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that . grad c: ok . point number two . i got the , uh , m - three - l for the routes today . uh , so i got some more . this is sort of the uh , um , hmm . interesting . it 's just going up , it 's not going back down . so , this is um , what i got today is the the new um m - three - l for um , the maps , professor b: yep . grad c: uh , and with some examples so , this is the xml and this is sort of what it will look like later on , even though it you ca n't see it on on this resolution . and this is what it sort of is the the structure of map requests , um also not very interesting , and here is the more interesting stuff for us , is the routes , route elements , and , again , as we thought it 's really simple . this is sort of the , uh , um , parameters . we have @ @ { comment } simple `` from objects `` and `` to objects `` and so forth , points of interest along the way and , um , i asked them whether or not we could , um first of all , i was little bit it seemed to me that this m way of doing it is sort of a stack a step backwards from the way we 've done it before . t it seems to me that some notions were missing . professor b: s grad c: so these are these are professor b: so these are these are your friends back at eml . grad c: yep . who are doing this . professor b: so this is not a complicated negotiation . there 's there 's not seven committees , or anything , right ? grad c: no . no , this is very straightforward . professor b: great . so this is just trying to it 's a design thing , not a political thing . once we 've eh we can just sort of agree on what oughta be done . grad c: yeah . professor b: good . grad c: exactly . and , um and , uh however , the , uh e so that you understand , it is really simple . uh you you have a route , and you cut it up in different pieces . and every every element of that e r r f of that every segment we call a `` route element `` . and so , from a to b we cut up in three different steps , and every step has a `` from object `` where you start , a `` to object `` where y where you sort of end , and some points of interest along the way . what w i was sort of missing here , and uh , maybe it was just me being too stupid , is , i did n't sort of get the the notion of the global goal of the whole route . really , s was not straightforward visibly for me . and some other stuff . and i suggested that they should n be k uh , kind enough to do s two things for us , is one , um , also allocating , uh , some tags for our action schema enter - vista - approach , and and also , um , since you had suggested that that , um , we figure out if we ever , for a demo reason , wanted to shortcut directly to the g gis and the planner , of how we can do it . now , what 's the state of the art of getting to entrances , um , what 's the syntax for that , how get getting to vista points and calculating those on the spot . and the approach mode , anyhow , is the default . that 's all they do it these days . wherever you 'll find a route planner it n does nothing but get to the closest point where the street network is at minimal distance to the geometric center . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: so . professor b: so , well , let now , this is important . let , uh i want a a again , outside of m almost managerial point , um you 're in the midst of this , so you know better . but it seems to me it 's probably a good idea to li uh minimize the number of uh , change requests we make of them . so it seemed to me , what we ought to do is get our story together . ok ? and think about it some , internally , before asking them to make changes . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh . does this does this make sense to you guys ? it i mean you 're you 're doing the the interaction but it seemed to me that what we ought to do is come up with a uh , something where you , um and i i do n't know who 's mok working most closely on it . probably johno . ok . uh , take what they have , send it to everybody saying `` this is what they have , this is what we think we should add `` , ok ? and then have a d a an iteration within our group saying `` hmm , well `` ok ? and get our best idea of what we should add . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then go back to them . is i or , i do n't know does this make sense to you ? or grad c: yeah . especially if we want sort of , what i my feeling was eh we we sort of reserved something that has a r eh an ok label . that 's th that was my th first sort of step . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: i w no matter how we want to call it , this is sort of our playground . professor b: right . grad c: and if we get something in there that is a structure elaborate and and and and and complex enough to to to maybe enable a whole simulation , one of these days , that would be u the the perfect goal . professor b: right . that 's right . so . so , yeah . the problem is n't the short ra range optimization . it 's the sort of o one or two year kind of thing . ok . what are the thl class of things we think we might try to do in a year or two ? how how would we try to characterize those and what do we want to request now that 's leave enough space to do all that stuff ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . grad c: yep . professor b: and that re that requires some thought . grad c: yep . professor b: and so that sounds like a great thing to do as the priority item um , as soon as we can do it . grad c: yep . professor b: so y so you guys will send to the rest of us um a version of um , this , and the uh , description grad a: with sugge yeah , suggested improvements and professor b: well b yeah . so , the the uh not everyone uh , reads german , so if you 'd um grad a: mmm . professor b: tu uh , tur change the description to , uh , english grad a: ok . professor b: and , um , then then , yeah . then , with some sug s suggestions about where where do we go from here ? grad a: ok . professor b: uh , this and this , of course , was just the action end . uh , at some point we 're going to have to worry about the language end . but for the moment just uh , t for this class of of things , we might want to try to encompass . and grad a: then the scope of this is beyond approach and vis - or vista . yeah , yeah . professor b: oh , yeah , yeah yeah yeah . this is this is everything that that , um , you know , um we might want to do in the next couple years . grad a: yeah , yeah . so what would grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . professor b: we do n't i mean , that 's an issue . we do n't know what , entirely . grad a: uh , yeah . but i 'm just but the yeah , ok . so i just this xml stuff here just has to do with source - path - goal type stuff , in terms of traveling through heidelberg . grad c: hmm . grad a: or travel , specifically . professor b: right . grad a: so , but this o is the domain greater than that ? professor b: no . grad a: ok . professor b: i think i think the i the idea is that oh . it 's beyond source - path - goal , but i think we do n't need to get beyond it @ @ { comment } tourists in heidelberg . grad a: ok . professor b: it seems to me we can get all the complexity we want in actions and in language without going outside of tourists in heidelberg . ok ? but you know , i depending on what people are interested in , one could have , uh , tours , one could have um , explanations of why something is is , you know , why why was this done , or i mean , no there 's no end to the complexity you can build into the uh , what a tourist in heidelberg might ask . grad a: mmm . professor b: so , at least unless somebody else wants t to suggest otherwise i think the general domain we do n't have t to uh , broaden . that is , tourists in heidelberg . and if there 's something somebody comes up with that ca n't be done that way , then , sure . w we 'll we 'll look at that , but uh i 'd be s i i 'd be surprised at if there 's any important issue that that and , um i mean if if you want to uh , push us into reference problems , that would be great . phd f: ok . professor b: ok , so this is his specialty is reference , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and you know , what what are these things referring to ? not only anaphora , but , uh , more generally the , uh this whole issue of , uh , referring expressions , and , what is it that they 're actually dealing with in the world ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , again , this is li in the databa this is also pretty well formed because there is an ontology , and the database , and stuff . so it is n't like , um , you know , the evening star or stuff like that . phd f: right . professor b: i i it all the entities do have concrete reference . although th the to get at them from a language may not be trivial . phd f: right . professor b: there are n't really deep mysteries about um , what w what things the system knows about . phd f: right . right . and you have both proper names and descriptions professor b: all those things . phd f: and y and you can ask for it . professor b: yeah . you have proper names , and descriptions . grad c: mm - hmm . phd f: right . professor b: and a l and a lot and and anaphora , and pronouns , grad c: nuh . phd f: ok . right . professor b: and all those things . phd f: right . grad c: now , we hav the the whole unfortunately , the whole database is , uh , in german . we have just commissioned someone to translate some bits of it , ie the e the shortest k the the more general descriptions of all the objects and , um , persons and events . so , it 's a relational database with persons , events , and , um , objects . and it 's it 's quite , um , there . but did y i uh i think there will be great because the reference problem really is not trivial , even if you have such a g well - defined world . professor b: he knows . grad c: ah - he you are not , uh , throwing uh , uh , carrying owls to athens . grad a: could you give me an example of a reference problem ? so so l i can make it more concrete ? grad c: well how do i get to the powder - tower ? we sort of t think that our bit in this problem is interesting , but , just to get from powder - tower to an object i id in a database is also not really trivial . phd f: or or if you take something even more scary , um , `` how do i get to the third building after the tower ? the ple - powder - tower ? `` grad a: mmm . phd f: uh , you need some mechanism for professor b: yeah . or , you know , the church across from city hall , or grad a: or the re the restaurant where they wear lederhosen ? grad c: or the phd f: right . grad a: or is that professor b: yeah , that would be fine . grad a: ok . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . grad c: o or or tower , or this tower , or that building , or phd f: right . grad e: uniquely . grad c: hmm ? grad a: ok . trying to professor b: or you can say `` how `` you know , `` how do i get back ? `` grad a: yeah , yeah . professor b: ok . and , again , it 's just a question of which of these things , uh , people want to dive into . what , uh , i think i 'm gon na try to do , and i guess , pwww ! let 's say that by the end of spring break , i 'll try to come up with some general story about , um , construction grammar , and what constructions we 'd use and how all this might fit together . there 's this whole framework problem that i 'm feeling really uncomfortable about . and i have n't had a chance to think about it seriously . but i i want to i want to do that early , rather than late . and you and i will probably have to talk about this some . grad c: u u u u that 's what strikes me , that we sort of the de g uh , small something , uh , maybe we should address one of these days , is to that most of the work people actually always do is look at some statements , and and analyze those . whether it 's abstracts or newspapers and stuff like this . professor b: hmm . grad c: but the whole i is it is it really relevant that we are dealing mostly with , sort of , questions ? professor b: oh , yeah ? grad c: uh , you know professor b: well , i mean yeah , i d grad c: and this is it seems to me that we should maybe at least spend a session or or brainstorm a little bit about whether that l this is special case in that sense . grad d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , i do n't know . you know did we ever find m metaphorical use in in questions in in that sense , really ? professor b: yeah . grad d: professor b: you will . grad c: and how soon , professor b: oh , yeah . grad c: i do n't know . professor b: i mean , uh , we could take all the standard metaphor examples and make question versions of them . ok . grad c: `` who got kicked out of france ? `` phd f: muh professor b: yeah , or , you know . `` wh - why is he why is he pushing for promotion ? `` grad c: nuh . phd f: right . professor b: or , `` who 's pushing proof `` grad c: nuh . professor b: er , just pick pick any of them and just do the eh grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so i do n't i do n't think , uh , it 's at all difficult uh , to convert them to question forms that really exist and people say all the time , um and sort of we do n't know how to handle them , too . right ? i mean , it 's i d it we do n't know how to handle the declarative forms , @ @ { comment } really , and , then , the interrogative forms , ah - oh . uh . yeah . grad d: ooo ! professor b: nancy , it looked like you were s grad e: oh . it 's just that that the goals are g very different to cases so we had this problem last year when we first thought about this domain , actually , was that most of the things we talked about are our story understanding . professor b: right . grad e: uh , we 're gon na have a short discourse and the person talking is trying to , i do n't know , give you a statement and tell you something . and here , it 's th grad c: help you create a mental model , blah - blah - blah . yeah . grad e: yea - eh y yeah , i guess so . professor b: yes . grad e: and then here , y you are j uh , the person is getting information and they or may not be following some larger plan , you know , that we have to recognize or , you know , infer . and th th the their discourse patterns probably do n't follo follow quite as many logical connec professor b: right . no , i think that 's one of things that 's interesting , is is in this sort of over - arching story we we worked it out for th as you say , this the storytelling scenario . grad e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: and i think it 's really worth thinking through what it looks like . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: what is the simspec mean , et cetera . grad e: mm - hmm . m right . cuz for a while we were thinking , `` well , how can we change the , um , data to sort of illicit tha illicit , um , actions that are more like what we are used to ? `` but obviously we would rather , you know , try to figure out what 's what 's , you know professor b: well , i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe that 's what we 'll do is is s u e we can do anything we want with it . i mean , once we have fulfilled these requirements , grad e: yep . mmm mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: ok , and the one for next uh , summer is just half done and then the other half is this , um , `` generation thing `` which we think is n't much different . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: so once that 's done , then all the rest of it is , uh , sort of , you know , what we want to do for the research . and we can w we can do all sorts of things that do n't fit into their framework at all . th - there 's no reason why we 're c we 're constrained to do that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: if we can use all the , uh , execution engines , then we can , you know , really try things that would be too too much pain to do ourselves . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but there 's no obligation on any of this . so , if we want to turn it into u understan standing stories about heidelberg , we can do that . i mean , that would just be a t a um grad c: or , as a matter of fact , we need and if we if we ' r eh take a ten year perspective , we need to do that , because w e w a assuming we have this , um , we we ta in that case we actually do have these wonderful stories , and historical anecdotes , professor b: yeah . grad c: and knights jumping out of windows , grad e: mmm . grad c: and - and - and { comment } { comment } tons of stuff . so , th the database is huge , and if we want to answer a question on that , we actually have to go one step before that , and understand that . in order to e do sensible information extraction . grad e: mm - hmm . yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: you might , yeah . grad c: and so , um , this has been a a a deep map research issue that was is is part of the unresolved , and to - do 's , and something for the future , is how can we sort of run our our text , our content , through a machine that will enable us , later , to retrieve or answer e questions more sensibly ? phd f: mwa mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . mmm . professor b: right . anyway . s who 's going ? phd f: so , uh so , uh , i was just going to ask , um , so , what is the the basic thing that that you are , um , obligated to do , um , uh , by the summer before w uh y c we can move professor b: ah ! ok . so eh yeah . so , what happened is , there 's this , eh , uh robert was describing the there 's two packages there 's a , uh , quote parser , there 's a particular piece of this big system , which , in german , uh , takes these t sentence templates and produces xml structures . and one of our jobs was to make the english equivalent of that . phd f: right . professor b: that , these guys did in a in a day . phd f: right . right . professor b: the other thing is , at the other end , roughly at the same level , there 's something that takes , uh , x m l structures , produces an output xml structure which is instructions for the generator . phd f: right . professor b: ok ? and then there 's a language generator , and then after that a s a synthesizer that goes from an xml structure to , uh , language generation , to actual specifications for a synthesizer . eh , but again , there 's one module in which there 's one piece that we have to convert to english . phd f: right . right . got it . professor b: is that ok . and that but as i say , this is all along was viewed as a kind of a m a minor thing , necessary , but but not phd f: right . professor b: ok ? phd f: right . professor b: and much more interesting is the fact that , as part of doing this , we we are , you know , inheriting this system that does all sort of these other things . phd f: that 's great ! right . professor b: not precisely what we want , and that 's that 's wh where it it gets difficult . and i i do n't pretend to understand yet what i think we really ought to do . grad c: ok . so , e enough of that , but i , uh , um , mmm , the e sort of , johno and i will take up that responsibility , and , um , get a first draft of that . now , we have um just , i think two more short things . professor b: ok . grad c: um , y you guys sort of started fighting , uh , on the bayes - net `` noisy - or `` front ? grad d: hmm . yeah , i thought i should , um , talk a little bit about that , because that might be a good , uh , sort of architecture to have , in general for , uh , problems with , you know , multiple inputs to a node . professor b: good ! ok . good . and what 's the other one ? so that just we know what the d agenda is ? grad c: um , the wu paper , i think maybe professor b: oh , yeah . i 've got a couple new wu papers as well . uh , so i i 've been in contact with wu , so , probably let 's put that off till i i till i understand better , uh , what he 's doing . it 's just a little embarrassing cause all this was in his thesis and i was on his thesis committee , and , so , i r really knew this at one time . phd f: ugh . professor b: but , i i it 's not only uh is part of what i have n't figured out yet is is how all this goes together . so i 'll dig up some more stuff from dekai . and so why do n't we just do the , uh grad d: ok . so should i is there a white board here that i can use ? professor b: yeah . you could grad d: uh grad e: yeah . professor b: squealing sound ? grad d: or shall i just use this ? professor b: it 's probably just as easy . i phd f: yeah . grad d: yeah . grad a: you can put the microphone in your pocket . grad d: hey ! grad a: i was envying you and your pocket cause i do n't have one . grad e: it was a quick one , huh ? professor b: that 's why they invented `` pocket t 's `` . grad a: exactly grad e: they have clips ! grad d: yeah . grad e: huh . grad d: so , um recall that , uh , we want to have this kind of structure in our bayes - nets . namely , that , um you have these nodes that have several bands , right ? so does i mean , they sort of the typical example is that , um , these are all a bunch of cues for something , and this is a certain effect that we 'd like to conclude . so , uh like , let 's just look at the case when , um , this is actually the the final action , right ? so this is like , uh , you know , touch , grad c: y grad d: or grad c: e - eva grad d: sorry . uh grad c: grad d: yeah , e - eva , right ? grad c: yeah . grad d: enter , v view , approach , right ? phd f: w what was this ? it i i i ehhh , { comment } i ehhh . professor b: wri - write it out for for grad d: so , this is yeah . enter , phd f: i mean grad d: view , approach . phd f: ok . right . grad d: right . so , i mean , we 'd like to take all these various cues , right ? phd f: like the army . grad d: so this one might be , say , uh grad e: new terminology ? phd f: yeah . grad c: hmm ? grad d: well , let me pick a random one grad e: i have n't heard that before . grad d: and say , uh i do n't know , it could be , like this is n't the way it really is , but let me say that , suppose someone mentioned , uh , admission fees ah , it takes too long . try let me just say `` landmark `` . if the thing is a landmark , you know , um then there 's another thing that says if um if it 's closed or not , at the moment . alright , so you have nodes . right ? and the , uh , problem that we were having was that , you know , given n - nodes , there 's `` two to the n `` given n - nodes , and furthermore , the fact that there 's three things here , we need to specify `` three times `` , uh , `` two to the n `` probabilities . right ? that 's assuming these are all binary , which f they may not be . for example , they could be `` time of day `` , in which case we could , uh , say , you know , `` morning , afternoon , evening , night `` . so , this could be more so , it 's a lot , anyway . and , that 's a lot of probabilities to put here , which is kind of a pain . so noisy - ors are a way to , uh , sort of deal with this . um where should i put this ? so , the idea is that , um , let 's call these , uh , c - one , c - two , c - three , and c - four , and e , for cause and effect , i guess . the idea is to have these intermediate nodes . right . well , actually , the idea , first of all , is that each of these things has a quote - unquote distinguished state , which means that this is the state in which we do n't really know anything about it . so right ? so , for example , if we do n't really know if the thing is a landmark or not , or , i if that just does n't seem relevant , then that would be th sort of the disting - the distinguish state . it 's a really , you know , if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee , you know , if they did n't talk about it , that would be the distinguish state . grad c: s so , this is a fanciful way of saying `` default `` ? grad d: so yeah , yeah . grad c: ok . grad d: that 's just what they the word they used in that paper . grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so , the idea is that , um , you have these intermediate nodes , right ? e - one , e - two , e - three and e - four ? professor b: so , this is the heckerman paper you 're working with ? good . grad d: yeah . so the idea is that , each of these ei is represents what this would be if all the other ones were in the distinguish state . right ? so , for example , suppose that the person i mean , suppose the thing that they talked about is a landmark . but none of the other sort of cues really apply . then , this would be w the this would just represent the probability distribution of this , assuming that this cue is turned on and the other ones just did n't apply ? so , you know , if it is a landmark , and no none of the other things really ap applicable , then this would represent the probability distribution . so maybe in this case maybe we just t k maybe we decide that , if the thing 's a landmark and we do n't know anything else , then we 're gon na conclude that , um they want to view it with probability , you know , point four . they want to enter it with probability , uh with probability point five and they want to approach it probability point one , say right ? so we come up with these l little tables for each of those ok . and the final thing is that , um this is a deterministic function of these , so we do n't need to specify any probabilities . we just have to , um , say what function this is , right ? so we can let this be , um g of e - one comma e - two . e - three , e - four . right ? and our example g would be , um , a majority vote ? right ? professor b: well . ok , so th so the important point is w not what the g function is . the important point is that um there is a a a general kind of idea of shortcutting the full cpt . th - c the full conditional probability table with some function . ok ? which y w you choose appropriately for each case . so , depending on what your situation is , there are different functions which are most appropriate . and so i gave eh bhaskara a copy of this , eh sort of `` ninety - two `` { comment } paper . d and you got one , robert . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: i do n't know who else has seen it . grad d: there 's i mean yeah . it 's heckerman and breese . professor b: it 's short . it 's short . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , i u w um , yo uh you have you read it yet ? grad d: uh , you can yeah , you should take a look at it , i guess . grad a: ok professor b: ok , so you should take a look . nancy , i 'm sure you read it at some point in life . grad e: i yeah . i i think so , yeah . professor b: ok . and so , you other guys can decide how interested grad e: yeah , @ @ . professor b: anyway . so the paper is n't th is n't real hard . phd f: ok . professor b: and uh one of the questions just come at bhaskara is , `` how much of this does javabayes support ? `` grad d: yeah , it 's a good question . um the so what we want , is basically javabayes to support deterministic , uh , functions . professor b: right . grad d: and , um in a sense it sup we can make it supported by , um , manually , uh , entering , you know , probabilities that are one and zeros , right ? professor b: right . so the little handout that the little thing that i sent i sent a message saying , uh , here is a way to take one thing you could do , which is kind of s in a way , stupid , is take this deterministic function , and use it to build the cpt . so , if ba - javabayes wo n't do it for you , grad c: mmm . professor b: that you can convert all that into what the cpt would be . um and , what i sent out about a week ago , was an idea of how to do that , for , um , evidence combination . so one of one function that you could use as your `` g function `` is an e e evidence - combining . so you just take the uh , if each of th if each of the ones has its own little table like that , then you could take the , uh , strength of each of those , times its little table , and you 'd add up the total evidence for `` v `` , `` e `` , and `` a `` . grad d: mmm . i do n't think you can do this , because g is a function from that to that . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: yep . right . grad d: right ? so there 's no numbers . there 's just quadruplets of well , n - duplets of , uh , e vs . professor b: i i i no , no but i 'm saying is there there is a w i mean , if y if if you decide what 's what is appropriate , is probablistic evidence combination , you can write a function that does it . it 's a pui it 's actually one of the examples he 's got in there . but , anyway , s skipping skipping the question of exactly which functions now is it clear that you might like to be able to shortcut the whole conditional probability table . grad c: i mean , in some it seems very plausible in some sense , where we will be likely to not be observe some of the stuff . cuz we do n't have the a access to the information . grad d: oops , { comment } sorry . professor b: right . that 's one of the problems , is , w is is , where would th where would it all come from ? grad c: yeah . so . grad d: is oh , right . w would not be ab able to observe grad e: mmm . grad d: what ? grad c: i if it 's a a a discar discourse initial phrase , we will have nothing in the discourse history . so , if if we ever want to wonder what was mention grad d: oh oh . a are you saying that we 'll not be able to observe certain nodes ? that 's fine . that is sort of orthogonal thing . professor b: yeah , so there 's there 's two separate things , robert . the f the the the bayes - nets in general are quite good at saying , `` if you have no current information about this variable just take the prior for that . `` ok ? th - that 's what they 're real good at . so , if you do n't have any information about the discourse , you just use your priors of of whatever eh the discourse uh , eh , basically whatever w it 's probabilistically , whatever it would be . and it 's it 's sort of not a great estimate , grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's the best one you have , and , so forth . so that , they 're good at . but the other problem is , how do you fill in all these numbers ? and i think that 's the one he was getting at . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yeah . so , specifically in this case you have to f have this many numbers , grad e: yeah . grad d: whereas in this case you just have to have three for this , three for this , three for this . right ? grad c: mm - hmm . grad d: so you have to have just three n ? so , this is much smaller than that . grad a: asymptotically . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: well , pretty quickly . grad d: yeah . right . grad a: u yeah , yeah . professor b: i mean grad e: so , you do n't need da data enough to cover uh , nearly as much stuff . grad d: i do n't know . grad a: so , really , i what a a noisy - or seems to kind of `` neural - net - acize `` these bayes - nets ? professor b: eh well to some no , no . so , `` noisy - or `` is a funny way of referring to this , because the noisy - or is only one instance . grad d: yeah . this is n't a noisy - or anymore . professor b: that one actually is n't a noisy - or . so we 'll have to think of of a way t t grad a: yeah . grad d: it 's a noisy - arg - max or a noisy - whatever . professor b: yeah , whatever . yeah . so eh { comment } um grad a: well , my point was more that we just eh with the neural net , right , eh , things come in , you have a function that combines them and professor b: yeah , it it tha - that 's true . it is a is also more neural - net - like , although uh , it is n't necessarily sum uh , s you know , sum of weights or anything like that . grad a: right . professor b: i mean i you could have , uh , like the noisy - or function , really is one that 's essentially says , uh , take the max . grad d: well , the `` or `` . professor b: same . grad d: right . i guess you 're right . yeah . professor b: uh but anyway . so and , i thi i think that 's the standard way people get around the uh there are a couple other ones . there are ways of breaking this up into s to to subnets and stuff like that . but , um the i think we definitely i think it 's a great idea tha to to pursue that . grad d: yep . so grad c: wha - still sort of leaves one question . it i mean you you can always uh see easily that that i 'm not grasping everything correctly , but what seemed attractive to me in im uh in the last discussion we had , was that we find out a means of of getting these point four , point five , point one , of c - four , not because , you know , a is a landmark or not , but we we we label this whatever object type , and if it 's a garden , it 's point three , point four , point two . if it 's a castle , it 's point eight , point one , point one . if it 's , uh , a town hall , it 's point two , point three , point five . professor b: right . grad c: and so forth . and we do n't want to write this down necessarily every time for something but , uh let 's see . grad d: it 'll be students where else would it be stored ? that 's the question . grad c: well , in the beginning , we 'll write up a flat file . professor b: oh . grad c: we know we have twenty object types professor b: yeah . grad c: and we 'll write it down in a flat file . professor b: no . so , i is well , let me say something , guys , cuz there 's not there 's a pretty point about this we might as well get in right now . which is the hierarchy that s comes with the ontology is just what you want for this . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so that uh , if you know about it let 's say , a particular town hall that , it 's one that is a monument , then , that would be stored there . if you do n't , you look up the hierarchy , eh so , you you you may or so , then you 'd have this little vector of , um , you know , approach mode or eva mode . let 's ok , so we have the eva vector for for various kinds of landmarks . if you know it for a specific landmark you put it there . if you do n't , you just go up the hierarchy to the first place you find one . grad d: ok . so , is the idea to put it in the ontology ? professor b: absolutely . grad d: ok . professor b: uh , or , link to or but but in any case i view it logically as being in the ontology . it 's part of what you know about a an object , is its eva vector . grad d: ok . professor b: and , if yo as i say , if you know about a specific object , you put it there . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: this is part of what dekai was doing . so , when we get to wu , the - e we 'll see w what he says about that . grad d: right . professor b: and , then if you if it is n't there , it 's higher , and if you do n't know anything except that it 's a b it 's it 's a building , then up at the highest thing , you have the pr what amounts to a prior . if you do n't know anything else about a building , uh , you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level , grad d: right . professor b: which might be equal , or whatever it is . grad d: yeah . professor b: so , that 's a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology . and it seems to me the obvious thing to do , unless we find a reason to do something different . grad d: yeah . professor b: does this make sense to you ? grad d: so professor b: bhask - ? grad d: yeah . so , we are but we we 're not doing the ontology , so we have to get to whoever is doing the u ultimately , professor b: indeed . so , that 's another thing we 're gon na need to do , is is , to , either grad d: we have to get them to professor b: we 're gon na need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology , or add fields , or { comment } { comment } some way to associate or , w it may be that all we can do is , um , some of our own hash tables that it th - the th you know , there 's always a way to do that . it 's a just a question of grad a: yeah , hash on object name to , you know , uh , the probabilities or whatever . professor b: i th yeah . e right . and , so , i uh grad c: but it 's , uh well , it strikes me as a what for if we get the mechanism , that will be sort of the wonderful part . and then , how to make it work is is the second part , in the sense that i mean , m the guy who was doing the ontology eh , eh , s ap apologized that i it will take him another through two to three days because they 're having really trouble getting the upper level straight , and right now . the reason is , given the craw bet uh , the the the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and , on all history , they 're really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the eml projects , and that 's , uh , uh , sort of a tough cookie , a little bit tougher than they figured . i could have told them s so . professor b: right . yeah . grad c: uh . but , nevertheless , it 's going to be there by n by , uh , next monday and i will show you what 's what some examples from that for towers , and stuff . and , um , what i do n't think is ever going to be in the ontology , is sort of , you know , the likelihood of , eh , people entering r town halls , and looking at town halls , and approaching town halls , especially since we are b dealing with a case - based , not an instance - based ontology . so , there will be nothing on on that town hall , or on the berkeley town hall , or on the heidelberg town hall , it 'll just be information on town halls . professor b: well , they they they how ar what are they gon na do with instances ? grad c: but what professor b: i mean , you y grad c: well , that 's hhh . that 's that 's al different question . i mean , th the first , they had to make a design question , `` do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not , that just has the types ? `` professor b: ok . grad c: and , so , since the d decision was on types , on a d simply type - based , we now have to hook it up to instances . i mean this is professor b: but what i what is smartkom gon na do about that ? grad c: one professor b: cuz , they have instances all the time . grad c: yeah , but the ontology is really not a smartkom thing , in in and of itself . that 's more something that i kicked loose in in eml . so it 's a completely eml thing . professor b: but uh uh smartkom 's gon na need an ontology . grad c: yes , u a w a lot of people are aware of that . professor b: i understand , but is anybody doing anything about it ? grad c: um professor b: ok . it 's a political problem . we wo n't worry about it . grad c: no , but th the r eh i th i still think that there is enough information in there . for example , whether ok . so , th it will know about the twenty object types there are in the world . let 's assume there are only twenty object types in this world . and it will know if any of those have institutional meanings . so , in a sense , `` i `` used as institutions for some s in some sense or the other . which makes them enterable . right ? in a sense . professor b: yeah . anyway . so we may have to grad c: you know . professor b: this is with the whole thing , grad c: yep . professor b: we may have to build another data stru grad c: yep . professor b: conceptually , we know what should be done . when we see what people have done , it may turn out that the easiest thing to do is to build a a separate thing that that just pools i i like , i i it it may be , that , the the instance w that we have to build our own instance , uh , things , that , with their types , grad d: yeah , it 's right , we can just assume professor b: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type . so we build a little data structure and so what we would do in that case , is , in our instance gadget have our e v and if we d there is n't one we 'd get the type and then have the e v as for the type . so we 'd have our own little , uh , eva tree . and then , for other , uh , vectors that we need . grad d: yeah . right . professor b: so , we 'd have our own little things so that whenever we needed one , we 'd just use the ontology to get the type , grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: and then would hash or whatever we do to say , `` ah ! grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: if it 's that type of thing , and we want its eva vector , pppt - pppt ! { comment } it 's that . `` so , i i think we can handle that . and then but , the combination functions , and whether we can put those in java bayes , and all that sort of stuff , is , uh is the bigger deal . grad d: yeah . professor b: i think that 's where we have to get technically clever . grad a: we could just steal the classes in javabayes and then interface to them with our own code . grad d: um professor b: well , i me ye eh , yeah , the grad d: that requires understanding the classes in javabayes , i guess . @ @ . professor b: yeah , i mean , it 's , uh , e e e e e cute . i mean , you 've been around enough to i mean just ? grad a: well , it depends on professor b: i mean , there 's this huge package which which may or may not be consistent and you know . but , yeah , we could look at it . grad a: well , i was j ok . yeah . professor b: yeah . it 's b it it 's an inter sort of a kind of a it the thing is , it 's kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form , and if you say , `` hey , we 're gon na make a different kind of data structure to stick in there `` grad a: well , no , but that just means there 's a protocol , right ? that you could professor b: it may or may not . i do n't know . that 's the question is `` to what extent does it allow us to put in these g functions ? `` and i do n't know . grad a: well , no , but i mean what i uh the so you could have four different bayes - nets that you 're running , and then run your own write your own function that would take the output of those four , and make your own `` g function `` , is what i was saying . professor b: yeah , that 's fine if it 's if it comes only at the end . but suppose you want it embedded ? grad a: well , then you 'd have to break all of your bayes - nets into smaller bayes - nets , with all the professor b: oh , that yeah , that 's a truly horrible way to do d it . one would hope grad a: yeah , but i 'm just grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , you bet . but , at that point you may say , `` hey , java bayes is n't the only package in town . let 's see if there 's another package that 's , eh , more civilized about this . `` grad d: professor b: now , srini is worth talking to on this , grad d: mmm . professor b: cuz he said that he actually did hack some combining functions into but he does n't remember at least when i talked to him , he did n't remember whether it was an e an easy thing , a natural thing , or whether he had to do some violence to it to make it work . grad d: ah ! professor b: uh . but he did do it . grad d: yeah . i do n't see why the , uh , combining f functions have to be directly hacked into i mean , they 're used to create tables so we can just make our own little functions that create tables in xml . professor b: well , i say that 's one way to do it , is is to just convert it int into a into a c p t that you zip it 's blown up , and is a it 's , uh it 's huge , but it does n't require any data fitting or complication . grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . i do n't think i mean , the fact that it blown u blows up is a huge issue in the sense that i mean , ok . so say it blows up , right ? so there 's , like , the you know , ten , f ten , fifteen , uh , things . it 's gon na be like , two to the that , which is n't so bad . professor b: i i understand . i 'm just saying tha that w that was wi that was my note . the little note i sent said that . it said , `` here 's the way you 'd take the logical f g function and turn it into a cpt . `` grad d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean that the max - the evidence - combining function . so we could do that . and maybe that 's what we 'll do . but , um do n't know . so , i will , e e before next week , uh , @ @ { comment } p push push some more on on this stuff that dekai wu did , and try to understand it . uh , you 'll make a couple of more copies of the heckerman paper to give to people ? grad d: p sure . phd f: yeah , i i would like a copy , professor b: ok . grad d: ok . phd f: y y yeah . professor b: and , um phd f: ok . professor b: i think grad c: ok . and i i 'll i 'll think s through this , uh , eh getting eva vectors dynamically out of ontologies one more time because i s i i i 'm not quite sure whether we all think of the same thing or not , here . professor b: well , you and i should talk about it . grad c: yeah , uh - huh . ok . professor b: alright , great ! and , robert , thank you for coming in under he he 's been sick , robert . grad c: und . grad a: i was thinking maybe we should just cough into the microphone and see if they ca n't th see if they can handle it . grad e: mm - hmm . grad d: yep . grad e: sure . grad c: um is this , uh { disfmarker }

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summarize the whole meeting . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

the meeting was with the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . first of all , petitioners presented several petitions including to call the government to implement a wage supplement . later the committee expressed the thanks to different departments and people for the contribution to the society under the covid-19 situation . when it came to questions , the committee discussed the financial support from the government to various industries as well as groups to ensure equal rights of different groups of people , especially the most vulnerable ones . moreover , the meeting discussed the new law in hong kong and issues related to community services in canada . in the end , the committee discussed the recent and upcoming solutions to battle the covid-19 concerning various aspects .

what was stated in petition e-2509 ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

the petitioners had asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who were in contact with the general public and working in what had been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they were taking for all canadians .

what was the difficulty faced by the tourism industry ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

mr. blake richards suggested that tourism week in canada , the annual celebration was a time to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . the ongoing coronavirus crisis had closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast had been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depended on a thriving tourism sector were counting on it .

why were the thanks expressed to the house of commons today from whitehorse ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

hon . larry bagnell ( yukon , lib . ) suggested that as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university would provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand the research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north .

what were the reasons to thank the members of the canadian armed forces ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

ms. anju dhillon would like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . since many seniors , the most vulnerable ones desperately needed them and they had offered great assistance .

would there be more room for profit in the care of the seniors ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

hon . chrystia freeland suggested that after what it had been learned this week , all options must be on the table when it came to how care for the elders would be provided in canada in the future . currently , it is clear to all that root-and-branch reform was necessary . all participants would need to act with speed but not haste , and work with the provincial partners .

where was the $ 75 million towards sexual exploitation and human trafficking had gone ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

mrs. karen vecchio joined critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who delt with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking had gone . as a result of financial shortage , last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that helped vulnerable women and girls . hon . bill blair ( minister of public safety and emergency preparedness ) introduced that the government had launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and had incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that focus .

would the prime minister condemn this law concerning the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

hon . mary ng suggested that canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which countries were expressing deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . moreover , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , the government had a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which were hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada would always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world .

what did the meeting discuss about the measures taken for the canada summer jobs program ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

hon . carla qualtrough ( minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion ) said that it could be confirmed that the government would increase the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . the program had added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % .

would the government enhance the canada summer jobs program ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

hon . steven blaney questioned that the canada emergency student benefit did not encourage young people to go to work , and employers had difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canadasummer jobs program . hon . carla qualtrough ensured the committee that the member opposite was not implying that offering young people income support that they took out of necessity would make them not want to work . the reason why the government was creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program was the young people wanted to serve the community .

how did the infrastructure minister explain to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank rather than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

hon . catherine mckenna started by introducing the $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which the government was working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that was making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . moreover , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marked a new phase in the development of the bank . the government was working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally .

would the government commit to immediately examine all the trade barriers that could affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

hon . chrystia freeland introduced that the government was very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it was something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it was the right thing to do . the government had been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus to ensure that there would be no delay .

what guidance would the federal government have for the employment with concerns ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 13th meeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the chairs chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute mr. ziad aboultaif (edmonton manning, cpc): i have a point of order . the chair: can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction ? mr. ziad aboultaif: there is so much noise in the background over there , mr. chair . the chair: that is a very good point of order . i want to remind everyone that when we speak , it is picked up . we have amazing speakersand an amazing speaker , but that 's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber , and they do pick up everything . i know there was some chatter going on in the background . i want to make sure everyone is aware of that . mr. aboultaif , that was a very good point of order . i appreciate that . for those joining us via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you 're not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel , and if you want to speak in french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised . i understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today , so we 'll continue to the presentation of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented . the first petition goes to mr. manly , who is joining us via video conference . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . this is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees . they are crucial to our food system . they provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year , and the european union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them , the neonicotinoids . this petition calls on the government of canada , for the sake of bees and our food security , to follow europe 's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in canada . the chair: the next presenter of petitions will be mr. genuis , who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up , i understand . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair , and that is all you need to see for the moment . canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in ontario . it raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations , which is what makes this first petition particularly timely . i am tabling a petition related to bill c-7 , the government 's euthanasia bill , which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago . when some people are living in deplorable conditions , we can not truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die . especially in light of that new information , i commend this petition for the consideration of members of the house . the second petition is in support of bill s-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking , put forward in the senate . the bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor 's consent . this bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking . the chair: the next petition presenter will be ms. may . ms. elizabeth may (saanichgulf islands, gp): thank you , mr. chair , and greetings from saanichgulf islands . the petition i 'm presenting today is petition e-2509 , which has been duly certified . it relates to what i think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months . in this pandemic , there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more , and who are of course deemed essential services . the petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $ 20 an hour , in light of their service and the risks they 're taking for all of us . the chair: we have a point of order from ms. harder . ms. rachael harder (lethbridge, cpc): mr. chair , the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday . she said that when we present petitions , we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table . i believe that was more than one or two sentences . the chair: i want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions , they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front , as opposed to going on for a long time . now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes , and each statement will be for one minute . we will start with mr. fonseca . mr. peter fonseca (mississauga eastcooksville, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . today i am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of mississauga eastcooksville who are part of the 52nd mississauga scouts . for over a decade , i 've had the great opportunity to join the scouts every year during the month of may for the door-to-door food drives . this year has been a lot different , owing to the covid situation , but our scouts are not used to saying the word impossible . david chant , head leader for their cub pack , reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank . i say a big thank you to scout leaders like david , who are strong role models for our youth , teaching them the importance of leadership , kindness and giving back . i 've always been amazed with the support within our community for the scouts ' food drive . david and his group of scouts raised over $ 46,000 worth of food last year for the mississauga food bank and the compass . again , i give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young scouts , who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. richards . mr. blake richards (banffairdrie, cpc): may 24 to may 31 is tourism week in canada . this annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of canada 's tourism industry . this is a very important industry , and this year 's tourism week is a little different from what it normally is . the ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel , and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns . clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen . this includes rehiring employees , ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans . operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening . while this tourism week is not a celebration like the one we had expected , i anticipate next year 's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in canada . the 1.8 million canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it . bonne semaine to tourism . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. rogers . mr. churence rogers (bonavistaburintrinity, lib.): mr. chair , monday was a sad day in my riding of bonavistaburintrinity , and indeed our entire province . please join me as i offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of st. lawrence in placentia bay . ed norman , his son scott norman and his nephew jody norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past monday . a fourth man , family friend isaac kettle , was also with them . after a courageous search mission by canadian coast guard auxiliary members and the department of national defence and provincial airlines , he is unfortunately still missing . we grieve with the entire town of st. lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life . mr. chair , i am sure the entire province of newfoundland and labrador , this parliamentary family and canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men , along with their friends and families , during this difficult time . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.simard . mr. mario simard (jonquire, bq): thank you , mr.chair . i would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on may25 . we were greatly saddened to learn about the death of francisdufour . this builder of quebec 's political history drew his last breath at the age of91 , late sunday night . mr.dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in jonquire . he first became involved in the alcan employee 's union in arvida , then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor , then in the quebec national assembly as the member for jonquire . he will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community , a man of integrity , a people person , who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in quebec . on behalf of the people of the riding of jonquire and all the people of quebec , i offer my most sincere condolences to francisdufour 's family and loved ones . thank you . the chair: we are continuing with martinezferrada . ms. soraya martinez ferrada (hochelaga, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . the pandemic has greatly affected montreal east , particularly the riding of hochelaga , which i represent . today , i 'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations , including anonyme , cap st-barnab , care montral , the cuisine collective hochelaga-maisonneuve , bouffe action , the centre communautaire hochelaga , chic resto pop , jojo dpannage , groupe d'entraide de mercier-ouest and many others . i 'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves , including the coop couturires pop , to make masks . i 'd especially like to recognize essential workers , especially attendants . allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours . the citizens of hochelaga are resilient and unified . i am proud to rise in the house to salute them . the chair: the next presentation will be by mr. cumming . mr. james cumming (edmonton centre, cpc): mr. chair , i rise today to pay tribute to a great albertan and former parliamentarian , louise feltham , who passed away this monday after a lengthy battle with cancer . louise was an entrepreneur , a public servant and a force of nature . she inspired the family motto how hard can it be ? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime . in all that she did , louise broke glass ceilings . her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural alberta , the first female reeve in rural alberta and the first woman born in newfoundland to serve in this chamber . she was the mp for wild rose from 1988 to 1993. her son glenn served as the president of nait when i chaired the board . my thoughts and sympathies are with him , his wife tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss . her parliamentary family mourns with you today . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we will now go to mr. bagnell . hon. larry bagnell (yukon, lib.): mr. chair , it is a great honour to speak to the house of commons today from whitehorse , yukon , here on the traditional territory of the kwanlin dn first nation and the ta'an kwch'n council . as a great historic canadian event last week , yukon became home to canada 's first university north of 60. yukon university will provide yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home , expand our research capabilities and expertise on the arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north . i encourage all students living in the northern half of canada to look at the many programs and degrees at yukon university to continue their studiesin some cases this year , virtuallyby remaining in the north . i want to congratulate the staff of yukon college , who spent the last decade working towards this transition , and especially the outgoing president , karen barnes . i wish her all the best in her retirement . thank you , merci , mahsi cho and sga senl . the chair: we 'll now go on to ms. hutchings . ms. gudie hutchings (long range mountains, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . first of all , from the long range mountains , i too want to send my condolences to my colleague , mr. rogers from bonavistaburintrinity , on the tragic loss in st. lawrence . we 're all communities that rely on the sea , and we understand the importance and the tragedy , and the hard work it is being fishers . however , today , colleagues , i want to mention , as my colleague from across the way said , that it 's national tourism week , so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings . most businesses around the world were hit hard by covid-19 . the tourism economy was hit very hard , especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs . however , this industry knows how to work hard . they know how to partner . they know how to look after their employees and their guests . they will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences . they will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors . we know that the domestic and local markets will recover first . i know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that . it 's exciting to speak with them about how they 're working on their new normal and how it 's going to be developed and implemented here in the long range mountains . remember too that many of our national parks are opening on june 1 , so get out and explore the park in your backyard . i look forward to working with the tourism industry association of canada , destination canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic , we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy . friends , go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province . they need your support . tourism matters . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.gourde , you have the floor . mr. jacques gourde (lvislotbinire, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the covid-19 crisis occurred . i would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of lvislotbinire . this crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies . fine men and women committed to human dignity , volunteers , retirees , and you , who have wisely agreed to stay home , you have been part , to varying degrees , of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst . the snow has melted , the flowers have arrived . many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again ; our seniors are being cuddled , with great care , and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job . i say bravo , thank you and do n't give up , even though you have already earned your place in heaven . the chair: ms.bendayan . ms. rachel bendayan (outremont, lib.): thank you , mr.chair . my father , who is now retired , was a researcher for over 40years . he was involved in many medical discoveries . from his laboratories at the univerist de montral , he worked with chum and the centre hospitalier universitaire saintejustine , renowned institutions in outremont . in fact , outremont is full of professors , scientists and researchers . they are quebeckers , canadians , who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives . since coming into office , our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science . recently , we announced new funding for covid-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers . we are working very hard to find a vaccine for covid-19 , and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we do n't even know the names of yet . it is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it . to all our canadian scientists and to my dad , thank you . some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. alleslev . ms. leona alleslev (auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill, cpc): mr. chair , citizens in my riding of auroraoak ridgesrichmond hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families , their friends and even strangers during this difficult period . they are our community champions . the aurora chamber of commerce and the richmond hill board of trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times . organizations like the steam project and ganesha temple are making and donating face masks for those in need . the aurora museum & archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations . the aurora farmers ' market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us , but this year with one key person missing . our community has lost one of the farmers ' market 's founders , our jam lady , jan freedman . we were deeply saddened by her passing , and she will be sorely missed . my sincere thanks to everyone who 's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis . it 's not easy , but this too will pass , and we will be stronger for it . in the meantime , stay safe , and let us all do our part to be community champions . thank you . the chair: mr.deltell , you have the floor . mr. grard deltell (louis-saint-laurent, cpc): mr.chair , we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits . we also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren , which is why it is important to be prudent , to make wise choices and , above all , to know where we are going . it 's a shame that every time we ask the government a question , no minister can tell us how big the canadian deficit is . we are n't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government 's lack of transparency . in fact , last tuesday , at a parliamentary committee meeting in the senate , the parliamentary budget officer made some very scathing remarks about the government . he said he was concerned . he said that there had to be a deadline or we 'd be heading toward taxation levels that have n't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit . i 'm not the one saying it ; it 's the parliamentary budget officer . for weeks , almost every day , the prime minister has been announcing cash injections for canadians . we agree with that . however , hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit . that 's why we 're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful . the prime minister needs to know that we ca n't play santa claus every day , because the bills in january come in fast , and they are high . the chair: we will now go to mr. garrison . mr. randall garrison (esquimaltsaanichsooke, ndp): mr. chair , making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic . that 's why i 'm so disappointed that the liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women . there is no science behind this ban . not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia , it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time . now we 've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors , when plasma is so critical in emerging covid-19 research and treatment . more than 17 countries , including argentina , italy and spain , have no deferral period for men who have sex with men . they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules . i have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and i do so again today , but today i also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who can not . when it comes to blood donations , we really should all be in this together . the chair: mr.desilets , you have the floor . mr. luc desilets (rivire-des-mille-les, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . i 've missed you , by the way . on another note , the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses . it 's for people who need it , not for millionaire political parties like the liberals and conservatives . in rivire-des-mille-les , as in many other ridings , we respond daily to businesses that do n't have access to it . unfortunately , there are people in our ridings who wo n't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer . there are businesses that are losing less than 30 % of their revenues ; they are losing29 % . these businesses wo n't have access to it . everywhere we look , there are businesses that are falling through the cracks . meanwhile , the liberals and the conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities . i repeat : it is to fund partisan activities . the liberals and conservatives do n't even do it on the sly ; they do it openly . these two parties have raised millions of dollars since january . every dollar that 's taken comes out of the taxpayers ' pockets . it 's the workers ' money , not the political parties ' . it 's so embarrassing that it 's shameful , disrespectful and ridiculous . the liberals and the conservatives have to pay that money back . i think that 's obvious . for the bloc qubcois , its immeasurably clear . it 's a question of ethics , morality and respect for citizens . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. schmale . mr. jamie schmale (haliburtonkawartha lakesbrock, cpc): thank you , chair . this week is paramedic services week , and i would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives . their efforts during covid-19 , like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care , such as personal support workers , doctors , nurses , janitorial and clerical staff , lab technicians and many others , have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty . i hope this week all canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead . chair , i 'd also be remiss if i did n't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic , the cancellation of the kinmount fair , a renowned event that has been running since 1870. this year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary , but in true kinmount spirit , this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021 . the chair: now we will go to ms. dhillon . ms. anju dhillon (dorvallachinelasalle, lib.): mr.chair , i 'd like to thank the members of the canadian armed forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities . their deployment came at a critical time , when many seniors desperately needed them . through the observations and testimonies of these members , we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time . these are human beings who could not fend for themselves . they were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness . among many other loathsome details , they were left to starve , were abused and lived in filth , their cries of anguish ignored . they were tormented and left in their agony . there is no excuse for this . no one ever deserves to be treated the way they were . i am talking about humanity , about compassion and mercy . it is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again . i take this moment to honour these victims . the chair: before moving on , i want to remind the hon . members that , as the rules state , statements by members should be 60 seconds . that 's one minute . usually there are a few extra seconds , which does n't matter , but some of them have gone quite a bit over time , so starting monday we 'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds . i encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them , and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we do n't go over our allotted time . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . i would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they 're saying . i know sometimes we get excited in the house and we speak a little quickly . just be conscious of it . i 'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in , as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber . we will go to our first question . we will begin with mr. barlow . mr. john barlow (foothills, cpc): thanks , mr. chair . the government has consistently worked to shut down parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by zoom . however , for work of the g7 the prime minister said , theres no question that in-person meetings ... are much more effective than even virtual meetings . by pushing to go virtual , is it the prime minister 's goal to make canada 's parliament less effective ? hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , it is absolutely not . in fact , i am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from ottawa than i do have the opportunity to join us . parliament plays an essential role in our democracy , and it 's the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , that is exactly the point . this is n't parliament ; this is a committee meeting . we do not have parliament . this is a virtual committee . a saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online agristability calculator . he said that most farmers ca n't use it , that in fact they ca n't put in their inventory changes . this means it will give them erroneous information . why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it does n't actually work ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the agricultural sector is critical to our country , and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are , as canadians , to be living in an agricultural superpower . when it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have , they should turn to the minister of agriculture and agri-food , who will be delighted to help . mr. john barlow: could the deputy prime minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online agristability calculator ? hon. chrystia freeland: what i can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely the chair: we 'll go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator , but they 've been told they would go broke before they received any money . will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to canadian farmers ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , very many farmers , and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance , have worked with accountants for a very long time . farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day . they run hugely important businesses the chair: we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , it 's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to canadian farmers . they should n't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program . the last time i questioned the prime minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data , they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the house . i have yet to receive it . will that be tabled today , in both official languages , to justify to canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen . they hire economists . they hire agronomists . they are at the cutting edge . i am proud of the sophistication of canadian farmers , and i 'm proud of the support we offer them . some honourable members : oh , oh ! the chair: i want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via zoom . i just want to make sure they 're aware of what they 're doing to our colleagues who are online . we will go back to mr. barlow . mr. john barlow: mr. chair , for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist canada 's energy sector . small oil and gas companies still ca n't qualify for bdc loans , and last week 's announcement for large employers , in my opinion , was nothing of exploitive . if the government does n't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector , it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable canadian jobs . after 64 days , when will the credit options be available to canada 's small and medium-sized energy companies ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite about one thing : the energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy , and we support them . one of the things i am most proud of is the $ 1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells . that money today has created jobs in alberta , b.c . and saskatchewan . people are working because of it , and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support . the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe (lac-saint-jean, bq): mr.chair , i 'll try not to spend too much time . will the liberal party of canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers , help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a no . in my riding , trillium media owns several weeklies . the company does n't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28 % instead of30 % . the historic village of val-jalbert is in the same situation . does the liberal party of canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of val-jalbert and trillium media ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , allow me to remind the hon . member opposite what we 're doing to support canadians : more than 8million canadians have received the canada emergency response benefit . in addition , 635,000businesses have received loans through the canada emergency business account . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . does my hon . colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers ' pockets ? it even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store . on the other side of the house , is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support canadians and quebeckers : 293applications for the canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved . over 2million canadians today have the chair: mr.brunelle-duceppe , you have the floor . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , i 'll take that as a yes . it 's fantastic ! the money that the liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty . when they go to get their election expenses reimbursed , they 're going to get 60 % of that money back . so they 'll have made the wage subsidy work for them . the businesses that 'll have access to it wo n't , but the political parties will . does n't that contravene the canada elections act , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , our programs do n't discriminate . they 're there to help all workers , to help all canadians , to help all quebeckers . the hon . member talked about companies and sectors that need more help . we agree with that . we think we all need to work together to continue to help canadians and quebeckers the chair: order . we are returning to mr.brunelle-duceppe . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: i do n't know how to take it this time . i did n't get it all . i think it 's necessary to stop , eject and throw the tape out , and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask . can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question ? are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so , once again , make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy . the important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary . that 's what we 'll continue to do . mr. alexis brunelle-duceppe: mr.chair , we 've already seen a duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the liberal party for the liberal party . can my hon . colleague tell me if she 's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they do n't deserve the wage subsidy , because their loss of income is only28 % or29 % , while her party is dipping into the cookie jar , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help canadians in this historic crisis . our economic support program is the largest program in canada 's history the chair: we will now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you , mr.chair . the canadian armed forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors . will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , that 's a very important question , and i would like to thank the member for asking it . i think this is a historic week . all canadians have seen what is happening in ontario and quebec . we the chair: order . we 'll go back to mr.singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors , there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors . will the liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to start by saying one thing , and that is to publicly thank , in this house , brigadier-general conrad mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in ontario . they acted with courage . they acted with compassion . what they did is historic , and we all need to the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: the canadian forces , of course , always deserve our thanks . however , they do n't need our thanks right now ; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out . the government owns revera , the second-largest long-term care provider in canada . it 's for profit , and it 's facing a $ 50-million lawsuit for negligence . what is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week , all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in canada in the future . i think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary . we need to act with speed but not haste , and work with our provincial partners . mr. jagmeet singh: if all the options are on the table , will the liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care , particularly in the revera long-term care homes , the second-largest number in canada , which the government owns ? will it commit to removing profit from long-term care ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we will commit to doand i hope with the support of all members of this houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners , under whose jurisdiction this falls , to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page the chair: we 'll go back to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , revera is a crown corporation owned by the government , so let 's not hear excuses . is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for ? is it providing for robust inspections , yes or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i want to clarify one point in the member 's question . canadian crown corporations are not liberal , not conservative and not partisan . one of the strengths of canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions , and they serve us extremely well . our the chair: we will now go to mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh: mr. chair , right now the current government is responsible for revera . it is a crown corporation . will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in revera ? as we 've seen , it is facing a $ 50-million lawsuit , and there 's been horrible negligence . hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , as i said at the outset , the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table . everything does . i also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing , which is to work very closely with the provinces , under whose jurisdiction this falls . in just the past 24 hours , i have spoken with premier ford , premier horgan and premier moe , and our conversation included long-term care facilities . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio (elginmiddlesexlondon, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . today i join critics from the ndp , the bloc and the green party who deal with women 's issues and gender equality to ask where the $ 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone . last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls , so the simple question is this : where is the money ? hon. bill blair (minister of public safety and emergency preparedness): mr. chair , let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question . i agree that human trafficking , which is a crime of coercion and exploitation , is unacceptable , and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime . as the member knows , we have launched a new , comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking , and we 've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: with all due respect , it 's great that we have a strategy , but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services , a strategy is nothing . it 's all talk and no action . where 's the money ? hon. maryam monsef (minister for women and gender equality and rural economic development): mr. chair , let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking . i remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports , and we will have more to announce to further support the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: it 's so very simple . what should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now ? what is the answer from the government ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , no one should have to live a life with violence , whether it 's sexual , physical , financial or emotional , and that the government of canada the chair: we 'll go back to mrs. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: thank you very much . yesterday i happened to be part of the health committee , and the battered women 's support services representative was there as a witness . she shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with , over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters , did not receive funding . can you explain why ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , i want to thank angela and the team at the battered women 's support services . they are receiving funds through feminists deliver , but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities , and we will have more to say soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , we know that calls to centres like battered women 's support services have gone up by 300 times , so this is a huge concern i have . what made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , my colleague is putting words in my mouth . as i said , hundreds of organizations like the battered women 's support services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days . we thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon . mrs. karen vecchio: mr. chair , the need is now . for instance , at london abused women 's centre , calls are up by 45 % . i 've heard from communities where they 've gone up 200 % . as i said , yesterday i heard 300 % . the money is needed now . where is the money for this program ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400 % with their capacity limited by 400 % . we 've centres and women 's shelters , and 700 have received funds , with more to come soon . i appreciate that this parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women the chair: we 'll go back to ms. vecchio . mrs. karen vecchio: if we 're talking about being a feminist government , i have one single question . yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question , so i will ask the minister for women and gender equality . how can a feminist government support the wet'suwet'en first nation women whose titles were stripped from them ? hon. maryam monsef: mr. chair , it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours . we are happy to do that , and the minister of crown-indigenous relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward . mrs. karen vecchio: these women have lost their titles , and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs . why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles ? hon. carolyn bennett (minister of crown-indigenous relations): mr. chair , i think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations , inuit , and mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws . right now the wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet (flamboroughglanbrook, cpc): thank you , chair . the uyghur human rights policy act has passed both houses of congress in the united states and is now on the way to the oval office for signature . what is canada 's position on this muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the communist party of china ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the uighurs and other minorities in china . this is an issue our government has raised directly with the chinese . canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chair: we 'll go back to mr. sweet . mr. david sweet: the burmese government is another being exploited by the cpc . their muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in bangladesh , which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic . what will canada do to answer the injustice done to the rohingya ? hon. mary ng: canada will always stand with human rights . canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the un human rights council . we will continue to call on the chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people , including the freedom of religion , are fully respected . mr. david sweet: yesterday the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the communist party of china . will the prime minister condemn this law ? hon. mary ng: canada , with our international partners in the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . mr. david sweet: canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak . the suez canal , cyprus , the fall of apartheid , child and maternal health in africa , and afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how canada has weighed in significantly . why is the government letting down hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , with hundreds of thousands of canadians living in hong kong , we have a vested interest in hong kong 's stability and prosperity , the foundations of which are hong kong 's relative autonomy and basic freedoms . canada will always support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: i think the 300,000 canadians who are in hong kong want a little bit more than interest from the government . they 'd like some action . what exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , canada has expressed deep concern regarding china 's imposition of the new security law for hong kong . the proposed law would undermine the one country , two systems framework . we are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech , freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i have deep concern . after being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday , 300 students were arrested in hong kong while peacefully protesting . where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the cpc is doing in hong kong ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as we have said , we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on hong kong . as we have said , canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression . mr. david sweet: mr. chair , i 'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that i asked . yesterday , the rubber-stamp national people 's congress passed the national security bill , undermining hong kong 's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the chinese communist party . will this government condemn that law today ? hon. mary ng: canada will continue to support hong kong 's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the basic law and the one country , two systems framework . canada and our international partners , with the u.s. , australia and the u.k. , have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding china 's imposition of a new security law for hong kong . the chair: the floor goes to mr.lvis . hon. steven blaney (bellechasseles etcheminslvis, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . some hon . members : ha , ha ! hon . steven blaney : i am pleased to represent the city of lvis , because it is a privilege , mr.chair . it is the city where alphonse desjardins , who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement , was born . i hope you will not take that away from my time . my question is for the minister of employment , workforce development and disability inclusion . on april8 , the minister announced measures for the canada summer jobs program . we thought it was to improve the program , but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between april7 and9 ? hon. carla qualtrough (minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion): mr. chair , i can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for canada student jobs . we have added flexibilities , including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until february of next year . that said , the budget was not changed . it remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students , with 100 % of them being subsidized at 100 % . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that the budget remains the same , but that by subsidizing each job more , they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic . why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic , when our young people want to work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member , all members and all canadians that despite the fact that he 's singling out the canada summer jobs program , we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy , with an additional 40,000 placements for students . i can assure the member that we are the chair: the floor goes to mr.blaney once again . hon. steven blaney: how many jobs are vacant right now ? the program is lagging behind compared to other years . why , and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are not lagging behind whatsoever . we created flexibilities in canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions . we are rolling them out in waves . there are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank . i can assure young canadians that there is work for them there , and i encourage them to check out the job bank . hon. steven blaney: the minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic , when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people . why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the canada summer jobs program , when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs . we 've increased the number of jobs funded through our government 's youth programs by over 100 % . there are a number of jobs . we 've added flexibilities into the canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this . i can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer . hon. steven blaney: when the minister says maximize , she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same , but that each position is funded more . my question is very simple : why not fund more jobs through the canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the canada emergency student benefit , which does not allow young people to get work experience ? we need young people and they want to work . hon. carla qualtrough: i agree , absolutely , that we need young people to work this summer . that 's why we 're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs , mr. chair . canada summer jobs is being maxed out , and that 's a good thing , because we 've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs . i can assure the member that we 're creating so many jobs , and it 's so exciting for our young people . hon. steven blaney: the canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work , and employers have difficulty hiring them . yet they had applied for the canada summer jobs program . why not enhance the canada summer jobs program ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i 'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work . young people want to work . they want to serve in their communities . that 's why we 're creating these additional jobs beyond the canada summer jobs program . that 's why we 've increased the flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program . it 's so we can maximize these programs . the chair: we 'll go to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu (sarnialambton, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . yesterday my colleague asked the minister of public safety a question , and he did not get a good answer . why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the u.s. ? hon. bill blair: mr. chair , to correct an error that was just repeated , we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel . we currently have an agreement with the united states that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the united states . we 've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations . we 're continuing to deal with the the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , i have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child . the father of the baby is not being allowed to come over . i have another citizen who 's married to an american woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back . i also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they 're not allowing custody arrangements between canadians and americans to continue . will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these canadians with their family ? hon. bill blair: i thank the member for an important question . it is never our intention to keep families apart . at the same time , we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of canadians . we 've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families . we will have further information on that as soon as we 're able to resolve that difficulty . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , the minister of agriculture has known there 's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing . we do n't have a bse exemption that would allow us to use american processors , and there 's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process . how bad does it have to get for the minister to act ? hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): we have done a great deal for the meat sector lately . we have invested $ 100million in the beef and pork sectors through the agrirecovery program . that 's a significant increase , because in the last few years the program has provided between $ 7million and $ 15million only . that is significant . we have also invested $ 77.5million to improve the capacity of processors the chair: we 'll go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it still has n't solved the problem . that 's not a beef burger ; that 's a nothing burger . what is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling , especially in this pandemic ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have helped the meat sector through the agrirecovery program and we have put in place a $ 77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers the chair: we will go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: it 's not enough for the farmers in my area . to the minister of national revenue , i 've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed . they 're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office . when will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need ? hon. diane lebouthillier (minister of national revenue): mr.chair , we consider this to be a difficult situation for canadians , and our government will do everything it can to support them . i can confirm that the cra is still processing paper returns , but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing , canadians can expect delays . we regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper the chair: we will go back to ms.gladu . ms. andranne larouche (shefford, bq): mr.chair , i have a point of order . the sound is not very good . this happens when ministers respond in the house . the chair: we will talk to the technicians about that . i 'm not sure whether there 's anything we can do now , but we 'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting . it will certainly be fixed by next monday . in the meantime , we will do our best . thank you very much for your comment . we go back to ms. gladu . ms. marilyn gladu: mr. chair , obviously with covid , many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief . the canadian grief alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling . can the minister of health let us know if that funding has been approved ? hon. patty hajdu (minister of health): i 'm not aware of that specific proposal , but i commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and i will take a look . the chair: ms. gladu , you have time for a 15-second question . ms. marilyn gladu: many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic . can the minister of health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering ? hon. patty hajdu: i know i do n't have much time , but let me repeat our infomercial to canadians . they should visit wellness together canada , the portal that will provide access for canadians to a variety of mental health supports , including connection to professionals . the chair: mr.champoux , you have the floor . i 'm sorry , mr.champoux ; you are next . mr.waugh now has the floor . oh , it 's mr. waugh . my apologies . mr. kevin waugh (saskatoongrasswood, cpc): thank you , chair . major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future , many event venues right now , such as concert halls and fairgrounds , are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue . many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations . i can think of many in my riding , such as the saskatoon fringe festival , shakespeare on the saskatchewan , the jazz festival , the folk festival , along with wdm and the aviation museum . can the minister of canadian heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air ? hon. steven guilbeault (lauriersainte-marie, lib.): as the member knows , we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector . we could talk about the canadian emergency response benefit , or the wage subsidy . we have provided advance help to a number of organizations from canadian heritage programs or the canada council for the arts on top of the $ 500-million program , which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations . mr. kevin waugh: many media organizations are struggling . the reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the canadian broadcasting corporation even more disturbing . i asked the minister on may 7 about these allegations , and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them . we ca n't afford to have a crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country . has the minister begun the investigation into the canadian broadcasting corporation , and does he have any information that he can share with us here today ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member said , these are allegations , and as you well know , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent body . it 's not controlled by the minister of canadian heritage or the government . mr. kevin waugh: well , these allegations were in the national post on april 22. i brought this up to you on may 7 when i talked virtually . even more interesting , mr. chair , is that these allegations against the canadian broadcasting corporation came from an organization in the minister 's own province of quebec , so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the cbc , or can the government 's friends at the cbc simply get away with anything ? hon. steven guilbeault: allegations are allegations , whether they are made in quebec , ontario or alberta . as i said , the canadian broadcasting corporation is an independent organization . mr. kevin waugh: when i last rose , on may 7 , the committee responsible for the government 's massive $ 595-million media bailout package had not met . it is now three weeks later . has the committee met ? if yes , when can the media organizationsand i hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised ? if it has n't met , when is it going to meet ? hon. steven guilbeault: as the member is well aware , this program is a tax-break program . in order for organizations to qualify , they had to file their income tax forms , which they have done over the last few weeks . the program is in place , and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer . the chair: mr. waugh , go ahead with a 20-second question , hopefully . mr. kevin waugh: there was $ 30 million rolled out to media organizations , some 1,400 organizations . yesterday postmedia announced another 40 layoffs . has the $ 30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations ? the chair: honourable minister , go ahead for 20 seconds or less , please . hon. steven guilbeault: thank you , mr. chair . i would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign . the chair: we will continue with mr.champoux . you have the floor , mr.champoux . mr. martin champoux (drummond, bq): mr.chair , i 'm feeling generous today , and i will be sharing my time with my colleague from pierre-boucherlespatriotesverchres . at the beginning of the crisis , the government called on entrepreneurs in quebec and canada , inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing . many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security , enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind . however , on may22 , despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the sub program would still be in place when the cerb was introduced , they were surprised . employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the cerb because of the alleged gains they had made under the sub program . at soprema , one of the large employers in the drummondville region , 150employees are affected . at bridgestone , in joliette , 1,100employees are affected by this decision . at goodyear , in valleyfield , 150employees are affected , and there are dozens more . does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period ? hon. carla qualtrough: when we put in place the canada emergency response benefit , the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for covid reasons . we understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward , although let me clarify that sub plans that existed prior to march 15 are definitely in place . we consider the fact that workers have access to $ 1,000 a month in addition to cerband we 've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way . the chair: mr.champoux , you have 15seconds for your question . mr. martin champoux: mr.chair , employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented , despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the cerb . that 's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith . they feel cheated , and rightly so . does the government intend to fix this mistake , which would simply be the right thing to do ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , i can assure the member opposite that the sub plans that were in place prior to march 15 are indeed in place now . in addition , employees who are now on the cerb as an alternative have access to $ 1,000 of income in addition to their cerb . we are working with employers to perhaps provide the $ 1,000 in lieu of the sub plans . the chair: we will continue with you , mr.barsalou-duval . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): thank you , mr.chair . on april27 , option consommateurs sent a letter to the minister of transport to warn him that the airlines ' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to quebec 's laws . what is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr.chair , i sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund , and i understand their frustration . it is not an ideal situation . the airlines are going through a very difficult time right now . if they were forced to refund their customers immediately , many of them would go bankrupt . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , the minister sounds like a broken record . a few hours ago , the following motion was passed unanimously : that the national assembly ask the government of canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund . what will the minister of transport tell the national assembly of quebec ? hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon.colleague knows , the canadian transportation agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that , in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way , it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years . in the case of air canada , the credit has no expiry date . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you have about 15seconds for a question . mr. xavier barsalou-duval: mr.chair , i find it rather odd that the minister of transport and the canadian transportation agency are telling the airlines that quebec 's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them . it seems to me that this is a strange way to operate . theoretically , under the famous canadian constitution , which they imposed on us , that is not how it should work . can they uphold their own constitution ? the chair: the hon . minister can answer in 15seconds or less , please . hon. marc garneau: mr.chair , as my hon . colleague probably knows , the canadian transportation agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm 's length from transport canada and the government of canada . the chair: we will now take a short break . we 're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety , including myself . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we will now carry on with mr. baker for etobicoke centre . mr. baker , go ahead . mr. yvan baker (etobicoke centre, lib.): mr. chair , i 'll be sharing my time with the member for glengarryprescottrussell . my question is for the minister of health . minister , in etobicoke centre , we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to covid-19 at the eatonville care centre . this week , we received a disturbing report from the canadian armed forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the eatonville care centre in etobicoke , orchard villa in pickering , altamont care community in scarborough , hawthorne place in north york , and holland christian homes grace manor in brampton . it is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way . as i said in the house of commons on may 7 , we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care . the four other mps who represent the residents of these homes and i wrote to premier ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations , to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the government of canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country . minister , will you call on the government of ontario to establish a full public inquiry , and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: thank you very much , mr. chair . i thank the member for his very important question . i think all canadians were horrified , shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country . there is no question that we have to do better for our seniors . i know the prime minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors , no matter where they live . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. baker , you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that . mr. yvan baker: thank you . i 'll pass on my time to the member for glengarryprescottrussell . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. drouin , member for glengarryprescottrussell . mr. francis drouin (glengarryprescottrussell, lib.): mr.chair , we know that farmers across canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months . in my riding , farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs . the canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand . i was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector . can the minister of agriculture and agri-food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , in these unprecedented times , our producers are working that much harder to feed canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy , particularly in terms of access to labour . to help them , this week , the prime minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector . this is a $ 9.2-million investment that will help to attract young canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector . i encourage all producers to apply through the agriculture canada website . mr. bruce stanton: i think you finished , mr.drouin . we 'll move on now to mr. johns , courtenayalberni . mr. gord johns (courtenayalberni, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for winnipeg centre . in early april , the ndp asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords , but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord ca n't or does not want to apply . on monday we wrote to ministers again , asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants ca n't be kicked out . will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bill morneau (toronto centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . we recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular , as well as landlords , are facing during the course of covid-19 . we have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants . we opened that as of monday . of course , we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces , so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps , if any , in this regard . we are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this . i would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this , which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants . mr. gord johns: that 's a no , so the government is still failing small businesses . if small business owners ca n't make june rent , thousands will have to close permanently . if the government wo n't negotiate a moratorium , will it at least let tenants apply for the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50 % of their rent ? hon. bill morneau: again , mr. chair , i think it 's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions . we have worked with the provinces in this regard . the federal government is working through the cmhc to provide support to landlords , which is conditional on their working with their tenants , but of course , it is a provincial area of jurisdiction , so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. gazan , winnipeg centre . ms. leah gazan (winnipeg centre, ndp): mr. chair , they talk about wanting to support small businesses , but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business . when it comes to the rent for people 's homes , the government did n't even try . many people in my riding could not make rent on april 1 and may 1 , and june 1 is coming up . when will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , for individuals , of course we 've worked hard to provide support . over eight million individuals are taking the canada emergency response benefit . for businesses , of course , we 've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program . we know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact . i would encourage landlords to ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , i have a point of order . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , just a moment . go ahead on your point of order . ms. leah gazan: i just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question i asked . it 's just a friendly reminder . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that is accurate . in fact , the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question . i am monitoring that , and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over . in fact , we try to cut it off at the appropriate time , allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase , and that 's the extent of it . i 'll watch that closely , the member can be assured . let 's go ahead then and finish up . you have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up , ms. gazan . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , winnipeg centre is the third-poorest riding in the country , and covid-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness . instead of bailing out its corporate buddies , when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): mr. chair , we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent . in addition to that , we have provided over $ 157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. gazan , you have about 40 seconds remaining . ms. leah gazan: mr. chair , adequate housing is a fundamental human right , especially in this time of crisis . how can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes ? will this government provide support , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , once again , we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses . in addition to that , we have moved additional dollars , in the amount of $ 157.5 million , to the most vulnerable , including the homeless population in canada . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now go to ms. harder from lethbridge . ms. rachael harder: as this pandemic began to spread , the government propagated china 's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible . now , i 'm sure that the minister regrets those comments . does she acknowledge that they were misleading ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the member opposite 's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting . i 'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late december , and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting , the information changed . as such the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: i 'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading . some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , since the very beginning , we have been advising canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus . we have taken strong measures , as a country , to do so . we respect the professionals the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to ms. harder . ms. rachael harder: the minister also said that face masks were n't necessary , that they would n't help canadians . would she acknowledge that that was misleading ? an hon . member : good question . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , the party opposite , obviously , does not understand the way that research and science evolve . the member opposite is propagating information that 's misleading . she is the one who is confusing canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the health minister misleading the canadian public ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus , as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence , we adapted to adjust our advice to canadians . ms. rachael harder: why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the canadian public misinformation ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information ? ms. rachael harder: back in january when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of covid-19 , conservatives asked the government if it would do the same . in response , the prime minister called us racist . does the prime minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , providing misleading information to canadians is not appropriate . as the member opposite knows , we took strong measures at the border , as recommended by the international health regulations , and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time . ms. rachael harder: i can not agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is , in fact , incredibly wrong , which is why the government should simply apologize to the canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep , that they did n't need to wear face masks , that we did n't need to close our borders , that human contact or contraction was impossible . those are incredibly misleading statements . why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the canadian public ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward , that as new advice comes forward .... canadians understand that . i am unsure why she does n't . ms. rachael harder: i understand that knowledge evolves . i 'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously , now that she understands that they are misleading . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i am so proud of canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health . i want to thank all canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country . ms. rachael harder: on february 3 , conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action . unfortunately , minister hajdu scolded conservative mps , stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus . would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the canadian community . we took strong action to assure those canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in canada . ms. rachael harder: would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the house somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is ? hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , as early as january 2 , dr. tam was convening members of the canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust canadian response to an issue of potential concern . we have taken this virus seriously every step of the way . ms. rachael harder: in truth , mr. chair , while the government has told the canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about , that we did n't need to close the borders and that face masks were n't necessary , they were misleading the canadian public . now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth , spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online . would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're out of time . the honourable minister . hon. patty hajdu: mr. chair , i want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves . we continue to work with the community and canadians . together we have managed to flatten the curve to date . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i invite the honourable member for mganticl'rable to take the floor . mr. luc berthold (mganticl'rable, cpc): thank you , mr.chair . one million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a chsld ; it is a new fire station ; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in quebec . with $ 1million , the liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . does the minister of infrastructure agree with the bank 's board , which is being so generous to its president with canadians ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr.chair , i am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country . we are investing in infrastructure . we are building by investing in renewable energy , green infrastructure and public transit , including in the member 's riding . that is what we will continue to do . i am very proud that michael sabia has decided to join the canada infrastructure bank . we are going to continue our work . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , could the infrastructure minister explain to canadians how it is better to give $ 1 million in bonuses to the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank than to invest in roads , schools , hospitals and long-term care homes ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that . perhaps he is n't aware of our $ 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the government of quebec to build infrastructure that 's making a huge difference , including projects in the member 's riding . we are going to continue doing that . mr. luc berthold: mr.chair , she is not answering the question at all . on april3 , the previous president of the canada infrastructure bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear . how much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , the change of management at the canada infrastructure bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank . we are working to build a modern , public infrastructure , to create jobs , and to make canada more competitive internationally . mr. luc berthold: we are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the canada infrastructure bank . we have received no answer on that . what were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former ceo had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus , when few , if any , projects were financed by the bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr.chair , i would like to thank the former ceo , pierre lavalle , for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution . i am very proud that michael sabia has joined the bank . we will continue to work to build canada and create good jobs . mr. luc berthold: how much did he receive in bonuses ? hon. catherine mckenna: the range of compensation for the ceo is set by the bank and is publicly available . mr. luc berthold: did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the canada infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: as i have already said , the compensation range for the ceo is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: thank you , mr.chair . if the new president stays in the position for five years , he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $ 4million , in addition to his salary of $ 3million . does the minister of infrastructure and communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money ? hon. catherine mckenna: we have to build our country , create good short-term jobs , ensure that we have a cleaner future , invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges , public transportation the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.berthold , the floor is yours . mr. luc berthold: mr. chair , if the new ceo stays in office for five years , he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $ 4 million , in addition to his salary of $ 3 million . does the minister of infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers ' money , yes or no ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i 'm very proud that we have michael sabia , who is now head of the canada infrastructure bank as the board chair . we need to move forward in building infrastructure that 's going to create jobs , including in the member 's riding ; that 's going to help move us to a cleaner future ; that 's going to grow our economy and increase canada 's competitiveness . the bank is a key part of the investing in canada plan the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now move to mrs. gray , kelownalake country . mrs. tracy gray (kelownalake country, cpc): mr. chair , the covid-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially . christian buhagiar of supply chain canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency . will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to covid-19 ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. chrystia freeland: i 'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point . our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade . it 's something that we have been working on with the premiers . obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks , but it 's a priority . it 's the right thing to do . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the canada free trade agreement , focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers . due to covid-19 , it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed . what is the government doing to ensure there wo n't be delays on these items ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers , who have been meeting every week for more than two months , to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus . however , i agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade . that 's something we 're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic , two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection . considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic , would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr.chair . i can assure you , as far as the canadian food inspection agency is concerned , that we are very open to that issue . moreover , the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , covid-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain . those i speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods . does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , since we are discussing the food supply chain , let me remind you that we are committed to spending $ 50million , specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it , through the food bank network , to regions where the need is greatest . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , reports state that activists ' rail blockades earlier this year cost the canadian economy $ 275 million , and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down . the supply chain industry just caught up , and then the pandemic hit , creating new issues and backlogs . we are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country . our railways are critical infrastructure . will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister may reply . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i could n't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country . i am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways . certain products are moving very well at the moment , including grain , potash and coal , but other goods have n't moved as quickly , because they have been affected by the pandemic . we are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible , whether it 's by our railways , by trucks or by ships . mrs. tracy gray: mr. chair , at the standing committee for industry this week , david montpetit of the western canadian shippers ' coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months . he also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry . this could backlog essential goods interprovincially , including food and medicine , if the capacity is n't there . what steps is the government taking to address this problem ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , of course it 's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country . at the moment , our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country . with respect to trucking , we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country . this is a problem that has existed for some time , and we 're working on it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now move on to mrs. wagantall of yorktonmelville . mrs. wagantall , go ahead . mrs. cathay wagantall (yorktonmelville, cpc): thank you , chair . young and new farmers are struggling , as they do n't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times . price insurance is key , but the premiums are so expensive due to covid that they ca n't participate . has a price insurance program been implemented in atlantic canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: yes , mr.chair , we are encouraging the use of private programs , as well as the risk management programs . the initiative must come from the private sector . i can not answer my colleague 's question directly . mrs. cathay wagantall: has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure my colleague that i am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues . in addition to our individual meetings , we have a regular telephone meeting each week . mrs. cathay wagantall: is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , for insurance protection , our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk . it is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not . mrs. cathay wagantall: without price insurance , how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers . for example , we are providing $ 50million through the agrirecovery program and $ 77.5million for food processors . mrs. cathay wagantall: on may 1 , the young cattlemen 's council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance . today is that deadline . did the minister meet it ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day . we are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs , in addition to the risk management programs , of course . mrs. cathay wagantall: she did n't respond to the request of the young cattlemen 's council . the minister is telling farmers to access the brm program , but just now i got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who 's losing $ 250 to $ 300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis . the farm credit canada lending capacity was increased by $ 5 billion , but only to service and manage loans of current customers . how many farmers have applied for that assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: however , mr.chair , there is a whole range of programs for our producers , whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector , or the canada emergency business account , the ceba , the criteria of which have been broadened . this allows us to provide more loans , also with a forgivable portion of 25 % , which could amount to $ 670million for the agricultural sector . mrs. cathay wagantall: what percentage of canada 's farmers are customers of farm credit canada ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , farm credit canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers . in addition the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): back to ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: of the 25 % of farmers who use fcc and have applied , how many have received assistance ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i stand to be corrected but , according to the most recent information i have received , $ 4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have 45 seconds left , ms. wagantall . mrs. cathay wagantall: is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers are n't able to protect the value of their herds , which they can not do , jeopardizing the future of the canadian beef supply chain ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i can assure you that i am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector . that is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones , especially in support of the meat industry . mrs. cathay wagantall: they made it clear that the brm programs do n't work and there 's not funding in place to assist them . three weeks ago , the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head . how many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this liberal government ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: once again , mr.chair , we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect . that is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions . these are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them . this is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility . in addition , we are supplementing the funding , especially for the meat industry . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. wilson-raybould in vancouver granville . hon. jody wilson-raybould (vancouver granville, ind.): thank you , mr. chair . the minister of employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities , similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on oas and gis . could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made ? when can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by covid in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have , or do n't have , more specifically . we are three days away from national accessability week , the first week after we legislated it in the accessible canada act . i would expect something from our government during that week . hon. jody wilson-raybould: thank you for that . my office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program . furthermore , banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging . how will the government ensure that the messaging for bcap and similar programs is articulated properly ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . i want to thank the honourable member for her question . nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported . the lending program through bcap is available through financial institutions ; that 's banks and credit unions across the country . the money is flowing to those businesses . i would encourage canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions . thank you so much . hon. jody wilson-raybould: mr. chair , members may not be aware , but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic , to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority . for example , this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples . can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. jean-yves duclos (president of the treasury board): thank you , mr. chair . thank you to my colleague for her important question , which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for canadians , being mindful , of course , of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves , both personally and professionally . we know that , in particular , indigenous communities need that support , and particularly so in the context of the crisis . we look forward to continuing to support them . hon. jody wilson-raybould: as current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes , something i would strongly support , can the minister of crown-indigenous relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released ? in asking this question , i certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic . there are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation . the need for consultation can not be an excuse for the lack of action . hon. carolyn bennett: i thank the member for her ongoing advocacy . as we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report , we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited , plus . despite the challenges of covid-19 , they have put in good initiatives , and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. wilson-raybould , you 're down to about the last 30 seconds , so please ask a short question . hon. jody wilson-raybould: i have a short question for the minister of transport . does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers ? i 've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard . hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , as i mentioned before , we 're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment . however , the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time , and if they had to reimburse at this time , some of them could fail . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . i want to begin by indicating that i 'll be splitting my time with the member for skeenabulkley valley . across the country , a lot of canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace , with the right procedures and the right equipment . unfortunately , some employers are not . for canadians who are employed by them , that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do n't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities , and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they 're not at work or because they will lose access to the cerb . i am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has n't done its due diligence , and are concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do n't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work . however , we do want people to go back to work . we are working very closely with the provinces . the minister of health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines . the minister of labour is working with her colleagues . we are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe , that they do n't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts . mr. daniel blaikie: mr. chair , i think the issue here is that canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer , or an offer to come back to work , so that they would n't be on the cerb . can canadians be confident that they can stay on the cerb whether they go back to work or not , whether their employer makes them an offer or not ? i think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it 's a difficult time . when is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work ? hon. carla qualtrough: mr. chair , we know that the provinces have their own workers ' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms , but the point for us , here in government , is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe . mr. daniel blaikie: but this is about cerb eligibility . i respect the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): order . mr. blaikie , we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers . we 're now going to mr. bachrach . mr. taylor bachrach (skeenabulkley valley, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . canadians depend on municipalities across canada for vital services , especially during this pandemicservices like transit , drinking water , parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis . local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help , yet mostly what we 've heard are excuses . does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time ? hon. chrystia freeland: what we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times , and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy . we are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces , in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall . mr. taylor bachrach: through you to the minister , we 've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way . we 've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off , and it 's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief . my question is very simple . when can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me just say again , mr. chair , that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy . we are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in , and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning , particularly as we move into the restart . we 're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces , as we are doing too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we have about 30 seconds left . go ahead , mr. bachrach , for 30 seconds . mr. taylor bachrach: i have a very simple question , through you to the minister . are there emergency federal dollars on the table for canada 's cities , yes , or no ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities . we are prepared to support them . provinces need to do their share too . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the honourable member for manicouagan to take the floor . mrs. marilne gill (manicouagan, bq): thank you , mr.chair . at a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts , the liberal party , the government , is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it , not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters . at a time when the work in the house is even more essentialwe should be working even harder , just as we are asking the people to dothe government , with the complicity of the ndp , decides to suspend the work of the house . this is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement . can the government confirm to the house , and simultaneously to the ndp , that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do ? it is not in its jurisdiction , so it is a measure that it can not implement . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr.chair , in order to be part of any agreement , you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table . the bloc qubcois says it wants to make gains for quebec , but in order to do that , it must be sitting at the table , not outside the room . it 's like a hockey game ; if you want to score goals , you have to be on the ice . the other day , i asked this question : how many of guy lafleur 's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench ? mrs. marilne gill: let me shoot the puck back to the leader of the government in the house . he himself decided to close the rink , to shut down parliament . that is where the teams are , and that is where the goals are scored . but when you play a sport , when you are on a team , and when you are in parliament , you still have to play by the rules . but the government does not keep its word . it made a promise to us as well , just like it made one to the ndp . it was about the canada emergency student benefit . the deputy prime minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea . what did the government do ? it backed away . i play on a team and i play by the rules . i take it at its word because this is the right place . here , in this chamber . so i would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction . that was my previous question . it was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not . the ndp has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements . we have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the bloc qubcois . it was going very well , but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked . when you are not happy , you do not go off and sulk ; you stay at the table and negotiate . that is how things work . mrs. marilne gill: i urge the honourable leader of the government to recall the house . i am ready to be here , on the ice , all the time . i must remind him that we are not sulking . the bloc qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public . an agreement is not a promise , it is an agreement . a word is given in dignity and sincerity ; a bond of trust is created . when a player decides not to play by the rules , i do not let myself be taken in twice . i prefer to negotiate here , as we should be doing all the time in parliament , not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word . i would just like the leader of the government in the house to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen . i could also ask him whether he found out from the government of quebec whether it agreed with the measure . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , of course , it is not in my jurisdiction personally . we agree on that . it depends on a number of players , including the provinces and the private sector . we at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas . of course , we are holding discussions with everyone involved . i want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four . what does she have against the fact that , from now on , people will be able to ask questions about anything , not just about covid-19 ? what does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer ? what is it that she does not like ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms.gill , you have about 30seconds left for your comment . go ahead . mrs. marilne gill: let me teach the leader of the government in the house some arithmetic . first , 37.5hours per week , as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees , is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us . second , once again , the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction . so he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing . i hope that the ndp has not reached an agreement with him . hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , it all depends on government decisions , and clearly , we are having discussions with the provinces . actually , we have already started doing that . however , i still do not understand what she has against having more time than i do to ask questions . i would really like an answer from her . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off . order . i see mr. bezan on a point of order . mr. james bezan (selkirkinterlakeeastman, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . earlier , during the question time here , mr. sweet , the member for flamborough-glanbrook , got up and was raising a number of issues about the hong kong protests , where 360 people have been arrested . the people 's republic of china , the regime in beijing , and their rubber-stamp parliament , the national people 's congress , are circumventing hong kong legislation and the hong kong government in putting their own will upon the people of hong kong . i believe this demands an emergency debate here in the house of commons . mr. chair , i 'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that parliament can actually discuss this crisis , this human rights crisis , as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in beijing . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i thank the honourable member , mr. bezan , for his point of order . it was really more of a request . he may know , and for the benefit of other honourable members , that we 're operating in this special committee on the covid-19 pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week . there is no provision in that order for emergency debates . however , i would certainly encourage him to speak with his house leader , whips and others . of course , he 'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared , so he might want to pursue that opportunity . i see mr. bezan rising . mr. bezan , is it a different point of order ? mr. james bezan: no . i 'd just like to respond to that if i could . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): well , there 's mr. james bezan: mr. chair , this is the problem with this special committee . our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded . it makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. bezan , we 're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the house . we 'll stick to those provisions . again , understand the situation we 're in . certainly circumstances do change , but i leave that to the party leaders to decide . for our last round of questions , we 're going to charleswoodst . jamesassiniboiaheadingley , mr. morantz . mr. marty morantz (charleswoodst. jamesassiniboiaheadingley, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . my questions are for the minister of national revenue . minister , i 've been informed by some of my colleagues that cra officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of parliament to resolve cra-related issues . why on earth would cra direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they 're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . i can tell you that cra employees have to deal with questions put to them . it is not up to mps ' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files . mr. marty morantz: minister , you did n't answer the question . these are your cra officials directing constituents away from the cra . you really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is , although i appreciate that . also , on your website , it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to canadians until june 5 , and there is no further information about further live service . when will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): just before we go to the minister , i would remind hon . members to address their questions through the chair . it 's a little bit different from when we 're questioning witnesses in a committee . we 're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole . the honourable minister has the floor . mr. marty morantz: on a point of order , mr. chair , as far as i 'm aware , this is not parliament ; this is a committee . i 've been sitting on committees since october . i 've talked to my colleagues , and no chair , including the chair of the finance committee , has ever asked me to address a question through the chair . so with the greatest of respect , unless this is in fact parliament , which i 'm told it 's not and the parliament voted that it 's not , we really should be able to address the witnesses directly , should we not ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): thank you , mr. morantz . this really is a question around the way in which this special committee on covid-19 has been structured . we 're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the house in an order that was passed and adopted on tuesday of this week , so we 're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way , and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon . members . so i ask you to abide by the rules of the committee , and we 'll pursue that . now we 'll go to the response to your second question . the honourable minister has the floor . hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic covid-19 period . i must tell you that cra call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly . the employees are answering calls from their homes . mr. marty morantz: some of my colleagues have spoken to the cra about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations , citing covid-19 as a reason . has the cra removed these boxes at all locations ? given this , will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free , since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i thank my colleague for that important question . at the cra , we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do . i repeat , i must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing . mr. marty morantz: on the subject of paper returns , there have been numerous reportsin fact i asked you on may 10 for a written response at the government operations committee , oggo , which i have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns . apparently this is still ongoing . when will canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , i can confirm that the canada revenue agency continues to process paper returns . because of covid-19 , we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees . we must ensure that employees are safe , but we continue to process paper returns . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. morantz , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead with your question . mr. marty morantz: sure , mr. chair . during this crisis , the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted . the minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head . how many successful prosecutions have there been in canada for the illegal use of tax havens ? hon. diane lebouthillier: mr.chair , as we have said , one of our government 's priorities was to invest almost $ 1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion . that was not at all a priority under the conservatives . we continue to do that important work for taxpayers ; everyone must pay their fair share . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): that concludes the 13thmeeting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . speaker rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting , which will be next monday , we 'll be watching more carefully the time for members ' statements . we 're allowed one minute . we ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute , as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute . with that , this committee stands adjourned until monday at noon . enjoy the weekend .

mr. daniel blaikie asked about the government 's guidance towards people who felt that their workplace was not safe at this time and that their employer had not done its due diligence , and were concerned about losing access to the cerb . hon.carla qualtrough suggested that the government were working very closely with the provinces on occupational health and safety guidelines and taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers were safe and that the government could support them in these efforts .

summarize the meeting </s> phd e: ok . professor b: ok , so we we had a meeting with , uh with hynek , um , in in which , uh , uh , sunil and stephane , uh summarized where they were and and , uh , talked about where we were gon na go . so that that happened sort of mid - week . uh . phd e: d did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: oh , yeah . yeah . it 's it 's it 's it was updated yesterday , phd e: cool . phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: you probably received the mail . phd e: oh , right , i saw i saw the note . phd a: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: what was the update ? phd a: what was the update ? so there is th then the all the new features that go in . professor b: yeah . phd a: the , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . these are the phd e: is the , um the cvs mechanism working well ? phd a: yeah . phd e: are are people , uh , up at ogi grabbing code uh , via that ? phd d: uh , i do n't think i do n't think phd e: or ? phd a: i do n't know if they use it , but . phd d: yeah , i i do n't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . phd e: uh - huh . mmm . professor b: i think it more likely that what it means is that when sunil is up there he will grab it . phd d: yeah . yeah . so right now nobody 's working on aurora there . phd e: yeah . professor b: they 're yeah . they 're working on a different task . phd e: i see . i see . phd d: yeah . phd e: ok . professor b: but what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , uh , pratibha will come back from from , uh , the east coast . uh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and and i guess actually , uh , after eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . so , actually everybody who 's working on it { comment } will be up there for at least a little while . so they 'll remotely access it from there . phd e: so has has anybody tried remotely accessing the cvs using , uh , uh , ssh ? professor b: yeah . phd a: um , i do n't know if hari did that or you d phd d: i { comment } can actually do it today . i mean , i can just log into phd e: have you tried it yet ? phd d: no , i did n't . so i i 'll try it today . phd e: ok . professor b: good idea . phd a: actually i i tried wh while when i installed the repository , i tried from belgium . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: i logged in there and i tried to import phd e: yeah ? it worked good ? phd a: yeah , it works . phd e: oh , good ! phd a: but it 's so , right now it 's the mechanism with ssh . phd d: oh . phd e: great ! phd a: i do n't s i did n't set up you can also set up a cvs server on a new port . it 's like well uh , a main server , or d you can do a cvs server . phd e: yeah . right . then that 's using the cvs password mechanism and all that , phd a: but . yeah , right . phd e: right ? phd a: but i did n't do that because i was not sure about security problems . i i would have to phd e: so w when you came in from belgian { comment } belgium , using ssh , uh , was it asking you for your own password into icsi ? so if yo you can only do that if you have an account at icsi ? phd a: right . yeah . phd e: ok . phd a: yeah . phd e: cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous cvs right ? phd a: yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a cvs server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: so that oh , ok . phd a: you you can set up priorities . phd e: so the anonymous mechanism phd a: you can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . phd e: ok . because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous cvs and i 'm just wondering uh , i mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd e: uh . professor b: yeah , for this stuff i do n't think we 're quite up to that . i mean , we 're still so much in development . phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , professor b: we want to have just the insiders . phd e: yeah , yeah . oh , i was n't suggesting for this . i 'm thinking of the meeting recorder { comment } stuff professor b: yeah . phd e: but . yeah . ok . cool . professor b: yeah . so , uh phd e: what 's new ? professor b: well , i mean , i think maybe the thing to me might be i me i 'm sure you 've just been working on on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? and so phd a: mmm , since the meeting , well , i i 've been i 've been train training a new vad and a new feature net . professor b: that was that was tuesday . ok . phd a: so they should be ready . um . professor b: but i guess maybe the thing since you were n't yo you guys were n't at that that meeting , might be just just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the the conclusions of the meeting . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: oh , great . professor b: so . phd e: you 're talking about the meeting with hynek ? professor b: yeah . cuz that was sort of , uh we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , uh , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: uh - huh . professor b: since he 's going out of town like now , and i 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and what do we freeze ? and , you know , what do we ? so , um . i mean , this software that these guys created was certainly a a key part . so then there 's something central and there are n't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . uh , um , and , um , phd e: yeah . that 's that 's nice . professor b: and then within that , i guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gon na be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . so keep a certain set of things constant . so , um . uh , maybe describe roughly what what we are keeping constant for now , or ? phd a: yeah . well . so we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . um . phd e: are you gon na use which of the two techniques ? phd a: so finally it 's it 's , um , wiener filtering on fft bins . and it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . and after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty fft bins . mmm . and , uh phd e: so this is on the uh , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: yeah , yeah . phd e: this is phd a: it was professor b: this this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: yeah . uh , it 's on the transfer function . so professor b: oh , it 's on the transfer function for the wiener filter . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so basically we tried different configuration within this idea . we tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . um . well , finally we end up with this configuration that works , uh , quite well . so we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: so professor b: actually , let me int eh , dave is n't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . this module , in principle , i i mean , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . i mean , because you you re - synthesize speech , right ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um . uh , well you do n't i guess you do n't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: we we do not fo professor b: uh , but you could . phd a: well well , we do , but we do n't do n't re - synthesize . in in the program we do n't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . we just use the clean fft bins . professor b: but you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . phd a: this is an option that then you can yeah . professor b: yeah , i gu i guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . but for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you do n't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . and if you do n't include that in the model , it does n't work very well . so in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . and , uh , generate new files or whatever , and and , uh , uh and then do the reverberation part . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd d: mmm . professor b: anyway . phd e: so dave has n't tried that yet ? professor b: no , no . he 's i mean , e phd e: i guess he 's busy with professor b: yeah , prelims , right . grad c: pre - prelim hell . professor b: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: so . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , but but , you know , that 'll uh , it 's clear that we , uh we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we ca n't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . and that 's i mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , uh and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . and that 's hard enough . i mean , i do n't think we really i mean , we 're trying to deal with that . in a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this aurora task . and we have , uh , the , uh , uh , lda stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . and we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . uh , even that 's hard enough . and and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i there 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . but now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . and , um , so dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . so we have to start since any almost any real situation is gon na have uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , um so there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: yeah , well , the , um , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: so that 's again , that that 's the wiener filtering , followed by , uh uh , that 's done at the fft level . then phd a: yeah , th then the mel filter bank , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: then the log operation , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: the the the filtering is done in the frequency domain ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . and then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: then the lda filter , professor b: lda filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: and then uh downsample , phd a: dct , professor b: dct , phd a: then , um , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also . professor b: right , and then in parallel with an a neural net . and then following neural net , some probably some orthogonalization . phd a: yeah . professor b: uh um . phd a: and finally frame dropping , which um , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . and the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . professor b: mm - hmm . so that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so the things that we , um , uh , i guess we sort of uh , there 's there 's some , uh , neat ideas for v a so , i mean , in i think there 's sort of like there 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . there 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . and there 's gon na be a host of those . but structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , uh , are are gon na need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a a significantly better vad , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we have n't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , opening up the second front . uh . phd e: the other half of the channel ? professor b: yeah , yeah , i mean , cuz we we have we have , uh , uh , half the the , uh , data rate that they allow . phd e: that what you mean ? professor b: and , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . it 's , you know , cheap , easy . uh . there 's a question about exactly how we do it . we probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so . um , { comment } i think tony robinson used to do i was saying this before . i think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . he used them as alternate features . put them together . phd e: hmm . professor b: uh . phd e: so if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gon na freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: mm - hmm . it , uh , phd e: in terms of ranking ? phd a: ri - right now it 's second . phd d: second . phd a: um . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: although you you know , you have n't tested it actually on the german and danish , have you ? phd a: no , we did n't . no , um . professor b: yeah . phd e: so on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: yeah . would it i mean but when you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh that the best system before got on , uh also without german and danish ? phd a: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd d: and th the ranking actually did n't change after the german and danish . so , yeah . professor b: well ranking did n't before , but i 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the german and danish , phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: so . phd e: where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were i mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . and so , i guess by that we were third , but i mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: uh - huh . i see . ok . professor b: uh , so institutionally we were we were second , with , uh , the third third system . phd e: we 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: see uh , no i think it 's also institutional , is n't it ? phd e: still institutionally second ? professor b: right ? i mean , i think both of their systems probably phd a: uh , we are between their two systems . so professor b: oh , are we ? phd a: i it is a triumph . phd d: yeah . professor b: is it ? phd d: their their first system is fifty - four point something . and , uh , we are fifty - three point something . phd a: but everything is within the range of one one percent . phd d: and their second system is also fifty - three point something . yeah , one percent . professor b: yeah , so so basically they 're all they 're all pretty close . phd e: oh , wow ! phd a: so . phd e: that 's very close . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: and and , um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . uh , i mean , one could argue about the lda and so forth but i i think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . but what what phd e: so how did they fill up this all these these bits ? i mean , if we 're u professor b: um , why are we using half ? well , so you could you c phd e: yeah . or how are they using more than half , i guess maybe is what i professor b: yeah , so i i think uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if i 'm wrong , but i i think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . uh , they have some cepstral modification , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? in our case we have a couple things . we have the on - line normalization and then we have the lda rasta . and they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . but in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . but there 's one difference . the lda rasta , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . and they 're not doing that . phd e: so th so professor b: so that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . grad c: get down . phd e: i see . i see . professor b: so phd e: so what if you did n't so do you explicitly downsample then ? do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd e: and what if we did n't do that ? would we get worse performance ? phd a: um yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: i think it does n't affect it , does it ? phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so i think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor b: and , uh , so i you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . so that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though i 'm saying i think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . and you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , `` oh , yeah , i understand `` , is is very helpful . phd e: so you would you 're you 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: well , that 's a question . i mean , we were talking about that . it looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh , phd e: cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: yeah . so , i mean , to do it after the mel conversion uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . there 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . uh . i sort of think you should , but i do n't know . phd a: what about norm normalizing also ? professor b: right . uh . well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , probably . some kind would be good . you know ? i would think . phd d: well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the uh , the frame . professor b: if you do or do n't normalize ? phd d: if yo if you do n't normalize and if if you do n't normalize . professor b: right . yes , so i mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . but i i w w my thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . and then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , `` ok , this much effect `` i mean , you do n't want to change six things and then see what happens . you want to change them one at a time . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . and then saying , oh uh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and you learn a lot . so , i would think you would wan na have some baseline that says , `` ok , we do n't normalize , this is what we get `` , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . but but the other question is so i think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . i agree . phd e: so this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: no , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: para professor b: we 're not talking about computation time here . phd e: s professor b: we 're ta i think we 're pretty far out . phd e: yeah . professor b: so it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . it 's depending on the same data as the other . phd e: same data . professor b: so it 's in parallel . phd e: ok . professor b: uh - huh . grad c: so with this , uh , new stream would you train up a vad on both both features , somehow ? phd d: no , i guess the vad has its own set of features . grad c: ok . that 's phd d: i mean , which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . phd a: and there is also the idea of using traps , maybe , for the vad , which , um phd d: yeah , that 's also phd a: well , pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at ibm , that it 's a good idea . so . grad c: would would that fit on the handset , or ? oh ! phd a: i have no idea . grad c: ok . phd d: well , it has t i mean the th phd a: it would have to fit but yeah . phd d: yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff . professor b: well , there 's the delays and the storage , grad c: ok . professor b: yeah . but i do n't think the storage is so big for that . grad c: right . phd d: yeah . professor b: i think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . um . and so i guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based traps , and and how big are they ? so that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: oh , right . professor b: maybe they can be little ones . grad c: yeah . cuz sh right . professor b: mini - traps . grad c: cuz she also does the , uh the correlation - based , uh , traps , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: right . and maybe for vad they would be ok . yeah . yeah . grad c: yeah . professor b: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: or a simple neural net , right ? i mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple uh , uh uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . it certainly does n't take much space . grad c: mm - hmm . right . professor b: so , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? do you need to have an added layer or something ? in which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . so . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh , uh so what 's next ? maybe s s remind us . phd e: so the meeting with hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gon na freeze in this system ? is that ? or was there ? were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: what to freeze and then what to do after we froze . phd e: mmm . professor b: yeah . and like i was saying , i think the you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh i mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . and then , uh , improving the vad . uh . so . phd d: so , i 'll , um i 'll actually after the meeting i 'll add the second stream to the vad and maybe i 'll start with the feature net in that case . it 's like , you 're looking at the vad , right ? phd a: uh , yeah . i i 've a new feature net ready also . phd d: i 'll for the vad ? phd a: no , uh . well p two network , one vad and one feature net . phd d: oh , you already have it ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: ok , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: yeah . phd d: ok . phd a: um . but , yeah , i think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . grad c: feature net . phd e: what about the , um uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , wall street journal part ? professor b: right . right . um . have you ever ? very good question . have you ever worked with the mississippi state h uh , software ? phd a: sorry . phd e: no . not yet . professor b: oh . well you you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary . phd e: ok . mm - hmm . so what how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? uh , i remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gon na give the system out or phd d: yeah . yeah . phd e: oh , so they 're gon na just deliver a system basically . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: do we already have it ? phd d: yeah , th i i guess it 's almost ready . phd e: uh - huh . phd d: so that 's what so they have released their , uh , document , describing the system . professor b: maybe you could , uh , point it at chuck , phd e: i see . professor b: because , i mean phd d: sure . phd e: so we 'll have to grab this over cvs or something ? phd d: it - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . phd e: is that how they do it ? ok . professor b: cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: ok . mm - hmm . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , uh , tweak joe about or whatever , phd e: sure . professor b: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff . phd e: ok . professor b: s phd d: so i 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . so i phd e: and it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: uh , i i think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . so they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? or ? phd d: uh , w i guess there is , uh , time during which people are gon na make suggestions . phd e: oh , but everybody 's gon na have to use the same values . phd d: after that . phd e: oh ! interesting . phd d: yeah , i guess . phd e: ok . phd d: so these sugges these this , uh , period during which people are gon na make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: yeah , so i th th certainly the thing that i would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . phd e: using our features . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , in which case , um , h hari or hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd e: and we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: yes . in this case , that 's right . phd e: yeah . professor b: that 's right . um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing uh . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh . but , um . yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like november fifteenth is right around the corner . and , um , if they have n't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gon na be for this , uh , when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding . i mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . it it it seems pretty tight to me . phd e: so wha what 's the significance of november fifteenth ? professor b: that 's when the evaluation is . phd e: ok . professor b: yeah . so , yeah , so after but , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . it would n't , you know , entirely surprise me . but , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , i 'm i 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . that would be , uh put us in an awkward position . but anyway . phd e: ok . professor b: great . yeah , i think that 'll be helpful . there 's there 's not anybody ogi currently who 's who 's , uh , working with this and and phd e: is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: i i think it 's it 's , um it depends how badly you do . i mean , i think that it it is uh . phd d: b phd e: this is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: yeah . well , i mean , it 's it 's conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if i 'm wrong , but my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . that you have n't come across you have n't invented features which are actually gon na do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . and , um , but it 's not the main emphasis . phd e: mmm . professor b: i mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: mmm . professor b: so it 's it 's a double check . so they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight . phd e: seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . y you passed the threshold or you did n't pass the threshold , and they should n't even care about what the score is . professor b: yeah . but , i mean , we 'll we 'll we 'll see what they come up with . uh , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: yeah . professor b: right ? it 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . so you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . phd d: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , it would n't surprise me if they did something like that with this . so again , if you 're if you get if it does n't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much . phd e: oh . professor b: but if it if you do n't if it does n't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then phd e: mm - hmm . so is this , uh ? uh , guenter was putting a bunch of wall street journal data on our disks . professor b: that 's it . phd e: so that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: yeah . phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so we have the data , just not the recognizer . ok . phd e: so this test may take quite a while to run , then . may - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on . professor b: uh , well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: i i guess , i 'm not sure . professor b: no , i mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the h m ms and and data for testing it . phd e: i just professor b: so i would n't so it it 's phd e: ok . so there 's professor b: so , training the recognizer , but , um um . but i think it 's trained on clean and is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: the wall street ? professor b: yeah . phd a: apparently , no . it 's training on a range between ten and twenty db , i think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: that 's what i got on professor b: ok . phd d: it 's , uh it 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: yeah , professor b: i see . phd a: and so the noise is there is a range of different noises also um which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . and there are noises that are different from the noises used on ti - digits . professor b: yeah . yeah . i mean , i would n't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . they probably put training uh , almost certain they put training data there too . maybe not . so . that 's that . anybody have anything else ? phd e: uh , one one last question on that . when did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: um , i guess i guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: yeah , it 's already there . yeah . phd e: ok , phd d: but they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , i think . phd e: good . phd d: so i guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . phd e: ok . professor b: oh , well that 's pretty soon . phd d: yeah , that 's just one more . grad c: is this their , um , svm recognizer ? phd d: no , it 's just a straightforward hmm . professor b: you know , their their they have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the svm is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . grad c: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor b: for the most part it 's it 's gaussian mixtures . grad c: oh , ok . oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: it 's just a hmm , gaussian mixture model . grad c: gaussian mixture hmm . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: yeah , the svm thing was an hmm also . it was just a it it it was like a hybrid , like grad c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: so , just so that i understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? is that the idea ? phd d: i i i think yeah , i i guess something like that . it 's like as painless as possible , phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: is what do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then just , phd e: i see . hmm . somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju yeah , i th i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: hmm . yeah , um . in fact , i mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable you know joe , right ? yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . so that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: ok . phd d: so sh shall we , like , add chuck also to the mailing lists ? it may be better , i mean , in that case if he 's going to professor b: yeah . phd d: because there 's a mailing list for this . professor b: is that ok ? phd e: yeah , that 'd be great . phd d: yeah , i guess maybe hari or hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to joe . or maybe if you phd e: i i could send him an email . phd d: well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: i i know him really well . phd d: yeah , so that 's just fine . phd e: i i was just talking with him on email the other day actually . phd d: so professor b: uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see . phd d: so phd e: about other things , but . professor b: do you have hari 's , uh ? phd e: i have hari 's professor b: yeah , so maybe just cc hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know , phd e: ok . would it be better if i asked hari to ask joe ? professor b: uh . why do n't you just ask joe but cc hari , and then in the note say , `` hari , hopefully this is ok with you `` . phd e: ok . professor b: and then if joe feels like he needs a confirmation , hari can answer it . phd e: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: that way you can get started asking { comment } joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and yeah . phd d: and there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , uh , between these people among these people . so just you can see all this mails in the isip web site phd e: ok . phd d: mississippi web site . phd e: ok . is that a password controlled ? phd d: yeah , it 's password protected . phd e: ok . phd d: so , like like , it 's , like professor b: have you thought about how long would be uh , most useful for you to go up to ogi ? phd a: i do n't know , uh . we can for september , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . and then at some point it maybe be better to work together again . professor b: oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: i professor b: i mean , it 's to you . phd a: maybe , yeah . professor b: i ju you guys are well , y anyway , you do n't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . i 'll phd a: but , uh huh . mm - hmm . professor b: support it either way , so . phd a: mm - hmm right . professor b: ok . uh . got anything to tell us ? grad c: um . well , i 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . just , um , i guess , let me put it in context . ok , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um to classify . and , uh , i was looking at some of the work that , uh , sangita was doing on these traps things . so she has , um she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from from timit , right ? the most common phonemes . and each one of them has has a a nice pattern over time , a one one second window . and it has has these patterns . um , so she has , um a trap for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . and , um , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . and then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how how closely related they are . and you start , um by merging the patterns that are most closely related . phd e: and you create a tree . grad c: and y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um . phd e: and then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: right , usually it 's when , um when the sol similarity measures , um , do n't go down as much . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and so , uh so you stop at that point . and what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: and , uh , one for silence and and another one for schwa schwa sounds . um , and , um , i was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these traps and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . um , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . um , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and i 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , ok , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable stable point . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um , and i 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um intermediate categories that , uh , um , i 'll later classify . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: are you looking at these in narrow bands ? grad c: um , right . f um , i 'm professor b: cuz that 's what you 're gon na be using , right ? grad c: yeah , yeah . i i have n't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the the representation of the data that i was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , um , over different lengths of time . so yeah . professor b: yeah , i mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that i wonder about with this . i mean , so one is is , again , looking at the same representation , grad c: ok . professor b: i mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: that that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . um , and then the other thing , uh , is that i wonder about with it , and and do n't take this in the wrong way , like i i know what i 'm doing or anything , grad c: right . professor b: but , i mean . um , just wondering really . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better . grad c: hmm . professor b: um , and i do n't know if that i mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this is n't right , but it 'd be something i 'd be concerned about . because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from from , uh from your your quals , john ohala saying that , uh , `` buh `` { comment } and `` puh `` { comment } differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . i mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . and yet , i would gue i would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , { comment } screwing up on this distinction . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . and the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they do n't work as well as we 'd like . and since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , `` how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: boy , i bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . so , what are we bringing to the party ? i mean , in fact what we wan na do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . grad c: mmm . professor b: so that 's th that 's the hard thing . i mean , i understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wan na have categories that , uh that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . and it 's something that you really think you can pick up . but i think it 's also essential that you wan na look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions . grad c: mm - hmm . hmm . professor b: so , i mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . y y this is more like , you know , how does lda differ from pca ? i mean , they 're the same sort of thing . they 're both orthogonalizing . grad c: right . professor b: but , you know and and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . you 're actually trying to find the the the the categories themselves . uh , so a little more like brain surgery , i think on yourself . uh . so , uh grad c: yeah . professor b: um , anyway . that 's my thought . grad c: ok . professor b: you 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . i mean , well w actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: yeah . professor b: and you 've been thinking about it more now , phd d: yeah . professor b: these categories . phd e: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i guess i do n't i do n't um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which i think is right , with the way i 've been looking at it . that it 's it 's it 's all not very clear to me . but it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . you know , however we do that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and and so i guess what i do n't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: right . phd e: but that 's sort of what you want to avoid . and so that feels i do n't know how to get out of this . professor b: well , here 's a here 's a , uh , uh here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , um , what do you really i mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . right ? because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it does n't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's got ta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: right . professor b: right ? phd e: so the question is , how far down ? professor b: and phd e: we could stop at words , but we do n't , right ? we go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: right , but i me i i think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . you know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , uh , um , metric of of goodness , uh , i if our phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , for for for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , i mean , that 's really i mean , d w in many applications you wan na go further . you wan na go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . phd e: yeah . but words would be a nice professor b: but , words are n't bad , yeah . and and phd e: yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you ca n't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? so you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . but the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? so when you look at conversational speech , for example , you do n't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . professor b: yeah . but but but we 're not trying for models of words here . see , so her here 's maybe where if the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then maybe it does n't matter that we ca n't have enough phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , what you wan na do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . phd e: right . right . professor b: and and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories i mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: right . professor b: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate . phd e: yeah . professor b: in some way i mean , we derive that all the time . in some ways it 's really not { comment } a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: uh - huh . professor b: uh , and uh yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of do n't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so that 's , uh , wh what i called a useless comments because i 'm not really telling you how to do it . but i mean , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: no , but i think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories . professor b: right . phd e: and i think this the important categories are the words , and not the phones . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: maybe . and so right . if you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters uh professor b: now , that being said , i think that that if you have something that is , um i once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: if you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like timit , then , you know , i i you the phones are gon na be right , actually , for the most part . phd e: yeah . yeah , professor b: so so , uh , it does n't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , uh , the phones are uh , you know , it 's gon na be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , um and it wo n't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: mmm . so it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it does n't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it does n't really hurt , and i 'm not sure how how to build that in . uh . professor b: yeah , i mean , i guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit i mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results i think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or or or , uh , even phones in in in in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . you know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i know one thing that happens is that you you you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . i mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones sometimes do n't get heard . and if that if that is if it uh , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . but , um , i do n't know , i w i would i would guess that you 'd grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: w i do n't know . anyway , that 's phd e: i think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: you know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . and so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: well that grad c: yeah . we 're we 're doing some sort of prediction of what phd e: yeah , exactly . professor b: oh , sure , that 's really big . grad c: yeah . professor b: uh , but i mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really is n't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , uh uh , than the machines are . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , i mean , that 's i right . we ca n't we ca n't get it at all without any language models . language models are there and important but but , uh uh . if we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there . so should we do some digits ? phd e: yeah . professor b: since we 're here ? phd e: go ahead , morgan . professor b: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: that 's all folks .

the meeting occurred close to the finalization of the model for aurora . the team had put together a model and was tweaking it to see what achieves best performance . the professor suggested that it was time to make some decisions , have several constants , and then test other theories on remaining features . the neural net , for instance , was yet to come together . still , the model was second in ranking for the task , behind the leader by only one point . the evaluation criteria for the tasks was still not completely clear , but the team seemed to be doing well .

summarize the discussion on project logistics </s> phd e: ok . professor b: ok , so we we had a meeting with , uh with hynek , um , in in which , uh , uh , sunil and stephane , uh summarized where they were and and , uh , talked about where we were gon na go . so that that happened sort of mid - week . uh . phd e: d did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: oh , yeah . yeah . it 's it 's it 's it was updated yesterday , phd e: cool . phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: you probably received the mail . phd e: oh , right , i saw i saw the note . phd a: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: what was the update ? phd a: what was the update ? so there is th then the all the new features that go in . professor b: yeah . phd a: the , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . these are the phd e: is the , um the cvs mechanism working well ? phd a: yeah . phd e: are are people , uh , up at ogi grabbing code uh , via that ? phd d: uh , i do n't think i do n't think phd e: or ? phd a: i do n't know if they use it , but . phd d: yeah , i i do n't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . phd e: uh - huh . mmm . professor b: i think it more likely that what it means is that when sunil is up there he will grab it . phd d: yeah . yeah . so right now nobody 's working on aurora there . phd e: yeah . professor b: they 're yeah . they 're working on a different task . phd e: i see . i see . phd d: yeah . phd e: ok . professor b: but what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , uh , pratibha will come back from from , uh , the east coast . uh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and and i guess actually , uh , after eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . so , actually everybody who 's working on it { comment } will be up there for at least a little while . so they 'll remotely access it from there . phd e: so has has anybody tried remotely accessing the cvs using , uh , uh , ssh ? professor b: yeah . phd a: um , i do n't know if hari did that or you d phd d: i { comment } can actually do it today . i mean , i can just log into phd e: have you tried it yet ? phd d: no , i did n't . so i i 'll try it today . phd e: ok . professor b: good idea . phd a: actually i i tried wh while when i installed the repository , i tried from belgium . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: i logged in there and i tried to import phd e: yeah ? it worked good ? phd a: yeah , it works . phd e: oh , good ! phd a: but it 's so , right now it 's the mechanism with ssh . phd d: oh . phd e: great ! phd a: i do n't s i did n't set up you can also set up a cvs server on a new port . it 's like well uh , a main server , or d you can do a cvs server . phd e: yeah . right . then that 's using the cvs password mechanism and all that , phd a: but . yeah , right . phd e: right ? phd a: but i did n't do that because i was not sure about security problems . i i would have to phd e: so w when you came in from belgian { comment } belgium , using ssh , uh , was it asking you for your own password into icsi ? so if yo you can only do that if you have an account at icsi ? phd a: right . yeah . phd e: ok . phd a: yeah . phd e: cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous cvs right ? phd a: yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a cvs server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: so that oh , ok . phd a: you you can set up priorities . phd e: so the anonymous mechanism phd a: you can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . phd e: ok . because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous cvs and i 'm just wondering uh , i mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd e: uh . professor b: yeah , for this stuff i do n't think we 're quite up to that . i mean , we 're still so much in development . phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , professor b: we want to have just the insiders . phd e: yeah , yeah . oh , i was n't suggesting for this . i 'm thinking of the meeting recorder { comment } stuff professor b: yeah . phd e: but . yeah . ok . cool . professor b: yeah . so , uh phd e: what 's new ? professor b: well , i mean , i think maybe the thing to me might be i me i 'm sure you 've just been working on on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? and so phd a: mmm , since the meeting , well , i i 've been i 've been train training a new vad and a new feature net . professor b: that was that was tuesday . ok . phd a: so they should be ready . um . professor b: but i guess maybe the thing since you were n't yo you guys were n't at that that meeting , might be just just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the the conclusions of the meeting . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: oh , great . professor b: so . phd e: you 're talking about the meeting with hynek ? professor b: yeah . cuz that was sort of , uh we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , uh , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: uh - huh . professor b: since he 's going out of town like now , and i 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and what do we freeze ? and , you know , what do we ? so , um . i mean , this software that these guys created was certainly a a key part . so then there 's something central and there are n't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . uh , um , and , um , phd e: yeah . that 's that 's nice . professor b: and then within that , i guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gon na be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . so keep a certain set of things constant . so , um . uh , maybe describe roughly what what we are keeping constant for now , or ? phd a: yeah . well . so we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . um . phd e: are you gon na use which of the two techniques ? phd a: so finally it 's it 's , um , wiener filtering on fft bins . and it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . and after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty fft bins . mmm . and , uh phd e: so this is on the uh , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: yeah , yeah . phd e: this is phd a: it was professor b: this this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: yeah . uh , it 's on the transfer function . so professor b: oh , it 's on the transfer function for the wiener filter . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so basically we tried different configuration within this idea . we tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . um . well , finally we end up with this configuration that works , uh , quite well . so we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: so professor b: actually , let me int eh , dave is n't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . this module , in principle , i i mean , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . i mean , because you you re - synthesize speech , right ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um . uh , well you do n't i guess you do n't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: we we do not fo professor b: uh , but you could . phd a: well well , we do , but we do n't do n't re - synthesize . in in the program we do n't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . we just use the clean fft bins . professor b: but you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . phd a: this is an option that then you can yeah . professor b: yeah , i gu i guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . but for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you do n't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . and if you do n't include that in the model , it does n't work very well . so in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . and , uh , generate new files or whatever , and and , uh , uh and then do the reverberation part . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd d: mmm . professor b: anyway . phd e: so dave has n't tried that yet ? professor b: no , no . he 's i mean , e phd e: i guess he 's busy with professor b: yeah , prelims , right . grad c: pre - prelim hell . professor b: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: so . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , but but , you know , that 'll uh , it 's clear that we , uh we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we ca n't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . and that 's i mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , uh and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . and that 's hard enough . i mean , i do n't think we really i mean , we 're trying to deal with that . in a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this aurora task . and we have , uh , the , uh , uh , lda stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . and we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . uh , even that 's hard enough . and and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i there 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . but now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . and , um , so dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . so we have to start since any almost any real situation is gon na have uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , um so there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: yeah , well , the , um , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: so that 's again , that that 's the wiener filtering , followed by , uh uh , that 's done at the fft level . then phd a: yeah , th then the mel filter bank , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: then the log operation , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: the the the filtering is done in the frequency domain ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . and then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: then the lda filter , professor b: lda filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: and then uh downsample , phd a: dct , professor b: dct , phd a: then , um , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also . professor b: right , and then in parallel with an a neural net . and then following neural net , some probably some orthogonalization . phd a: yeah . professor b: uh um . phd a: and finally frame dropping , which um , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . and the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . professor b: mm - hmm . so that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so the things that we , um , uh , i guess we sort of uh , there 's there 's some , uh , neat ideas for v a so , i mean , in i think there 's sort of like there 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . there 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . and there 's gon na be a host of those . but structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , uh , are are gon na need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a a significantly better vad , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we have n't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , opening up the second front . uh . phd e: the other half of the channel ? professor b: yeah , yeah , i mean , cuz we we have we have , uh , uh , half the the , uh , data rate that they allow . phd e: that what you mean ? professor b: and , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . it 's , you know , cheap , easy . uh . there 's a question about exactly how we do it . we probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so . um , { comment } i think tony robinson used to do i was saying this before . i think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . he used them as alternate features . put them together . phd e: hmm . professor b: uh . phd e: so if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gon na freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: mm - hmm . it , uh , phd e: in terms of ranking ? phd a: ri - right now it 's second . phd d: second . phd a: um . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: although you you know , you have n't tested it actually on the german and danish , have you ? phd a: no , we did n't . no , um . professor b: yeah . phd e: so on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: yeah . would it i mean but when you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh that the best system before got on , uh also without german and danish ? phd a: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd d: and th the ranking actually did n't change after the german and danish . so , yeah . professor b: well ranking did n't before , but i 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the german and danish , phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: so . phd e: where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were i mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . and so , i guess by that we were third , but i mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: uh - huh . i see . ok . professor b: uh , so institutionally we were we were second , with , uh , the third third system . phd e: we 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: see uh , no i think it 's also institutional , is n't it ? phd e: still institutionally second ? professor b: right ? i mean , i think both of their systems probably phd a: uh , we are between their two systems . so professor b: oh , are we ? phd a: i it is a triumph . phd d: yeah . professor b: is it ? phd d: their their first system is fifty - four point something . and , uh , we are fifty - three point something . phd a: but everything is within the range of one one percent . phd d: and their second system is also fifty - three point something . yeah , one percent . professor b: yeah , so so basically they 're all they 're all pretty close . phd e: oh , wow ! phd a: so . phd e: that 's very close . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: and and , um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . uh , i mean , one could argue about the lda and so forth but i i think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . but what what phd e: so how did they fill up this all these these bits ? i mean , if we 're u professor b: um , why are we using half ? well , so you could you c phd e: yeah . or how are they using more than half , i guess maybe is what i professor b: yeah , so i i think uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if i 'm wrong , but i i think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . uh , they have some cepstral modification , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? in our case we have a couple things . we have the on - line normalization and then we have the lda rasta . and they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . but in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . but there 's one difference . the lda rasta , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . and they 're not doing that . phd e: so th so professor b: so that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . grad c: get down . phd e: i see . i see . professor b: so phd e: so what if you did n't so do you explicitly downsample then ? do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd e: and what if we did n't do that ? would we get worse performance ? phd a: um yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: i think it does n't affect it , does it ? phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so i think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor b: and , uh , so i you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . so that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though i 'm saying i think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . and you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , `` oh , yeah , i understand `` , is is very helpful . phd e: so you would you 're you 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: well , that 's a question . i mean , we were talking about that . it looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh , phd e: cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: yeah . so , i mean , to do it after the mel conversion uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . there 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . uh . i sort of think you should , but i do n't know . phd a: what about norm normalizing also ? professor b: right . uh . well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , probably . some kind would be good . you know ? i would think . phd d: well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the uh , the frame . professor b: if you do or do n't normalize ? phd d: if yo if you do n't normalize and if if you do n't normalize . professor b: right . yes , so i mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . but i i w w my thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . and then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , `` ok , this much effect `` i mean , you do n't want to change six things and then see what happens . you want to change them one at a time . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . and then saying , oh uh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and you learn a lot . so , i would think you would wan na have some baseline that says , `` ok , we do n't normalize , this is what we get `` , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . but but the other question is so i think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . i agree . phd e: so this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: no , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: para professor b: we 're not talking about computation time here . phd e: s professor b: we 're ta i think we 're pretty far out . phd e: yeah . professor b: so it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . it 's depending on the same data as the other . phd e: same data . professor b: so it 's in parallel . phd e: ok . professor b: uh - huh . grad c: so with this , uh , new stream would you train up a vad on both both features , somehow ? phd d: no , i guess the vad has its own set of features . grad c: ok . that 's phd d: i mean , which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . phd a: and there is also the idea of using traps , maybe , for the vad , which , um phd d: yeah , that 's also phd a: well , pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at ibm , that it 's a good idea . so . grad c: would would that fit on the handset , or ? oh ! phd a: i have no idea . grad c: ok . phd d: well , it has t i mean the th phd a: it would have to fit but yeah . phd d: yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff . professor b: well , there 's the delays and the storage , grad c: ok . professor b: yeah . but i do n't think the storage is so big for that . grad c: right . phd d: yeah . professor b: i think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . um . and so i guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based traps , and and how big are they ? so that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: oh , right . professor b: maybe they can be little ones . grad c: yeah . cuz sh right . professor b: mini - traps . grad c: cuz she also does the , uh the correlation - based , uh , traps , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: right . and maybe for vad they would be ok . yeah . yeah . grad c: yeah . professor b: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: or a simple neural net , right ? i mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple uh , uh uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . it certainly does n't take much space . grad c: mm - hmm . right . professor b: so , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? do you need to have an added layer or something ? in which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . so . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh , uh so what 's next ? maybe s s remind us . phd e: so the meeting with hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gon na freeze in this system ? is that ? or was there ? were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: what to freeze and then what to do after we froze . phd e: mmm . professor b: yeah . and like i was saying , i think the you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh i mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . and then , uh , improving the vad . uh . so . phd d: so , i 'll , um i 'll actually after the meeting i 'll add the second stream to the vad and maybe i 'll start with the feature net in that case . it 's like , you 're looking at the vad , right ? phd a: uh , yeah . i i 've a new feature net ready also . phd d: i 'll for the vad ? phd a: no , uh . well p two network , one vad and one feature net . phd d: oh , you already have it ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: ok , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: yeah . phd d: ok . phd a: um . but , yeah , i think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . grad c: feature net . phd e: what about the , um uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , wall street journal part ? professor b: right . right . um . have you ever ? very good question . have you ever worked with the mississippi state h uh , software ? phd a: sorry . phd e: no . not yet . professor b: oh . well you you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary . phd e: ok . mm - hmm . so what how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? uh , i remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gon na give the system out or phd d: yeah . yeah . phd e: oh , so they 're gon na just deliver a system basically . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: do we already have it ? phd d: yeah , th i i guess it 's almost ready . phd e: uh - huh . phd d: so that 's what so they have released their , uh , document , describing the system . professor b: maybe you could , uh , point it at chuck , phd e: i see . professor b: because , i mean phd d: sure . phd e: so we 'll have to grab this over cvs or something ? phd d: it - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . phd e: is that how they do it ? ok . professor b: cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: ok . mm - hmm . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , uh , tweak joe about or whatever , phd e: sure . professor b: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff . phd e: ok . professor b: s phd d: so i 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . so i phd e: and it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: uh , i i think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . so they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? or ? phd d: uh , w i guess there is , uh , time during which people are gon na make suggestions . phd e: oh , but everybody 's gon na have to use the same values . phd d: after that . phd e: oh ! interesting . phd d: yeah , i guess . phd e: ok . phd d: so these sugges these this , uh , period during which people are gon na make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: yeah , so i th th certainly the thing that i would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . phd e: using our features . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , in which case , um , h hari or hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd e: and we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: yes . in this case , that 's right . phd e: yeah . professor b: that 's right . um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing uh . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh . but , um . yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like november fifteenth is right around the corner . and , um , if they have n't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gon na be for this , uh , when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding . i mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . it it it seems pretty tight to me . phd e: so wha what 's the significance of november fifteenth ? professor b: that 's when the evaluation is . phd e: ok . professor b: yeah . so , yeah , so after but , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . it would n't , you know , entirely surprise me . but , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , i 'm i 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . that would be , uh put us in an awkward position . but anyway . phd e: ok . professor b: great . yeah , i think that 'll be helpful . there 's there 's not anybody ogi currently who 's who 's , uh , working with this and and phd e: is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: i i think it 's it 's , um it depends how badly you do . i mean , i think that it it is uh . phd d: b phd e: this is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: yeah . well , i mean , it 's it 's conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if i 'm wrong , but my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . that you have n't come across you have n't invented features which are actually gon na do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . and , um , but it 's not the main emphasis . phd e: mmm . professor b: i mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: mmm . professor b: so it 's it 's a double check . so they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight . phd e: seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . y you passed the threshold or you did n't pass the threshold , and they should n't even care about what the score is . professor b: yeah . but , i mean , we 'll we 'll we 'll see what they come up with . uh , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: yeah . professor b: right ? it 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . so you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . phd d: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , it would n't surprise me if they did something like that with this . so again , if you 're if you get if it does n't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much . phd e: oh . professor b: but if it if you do n't if it does n't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then phd e: mm - hmm . so is this , uh ? uh , guenter was putting a bunch of wall street journal data on our disks . professor b: that 's it . phd e: so that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: yeah . phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so we have the data , just not the recognizer . ok . phd e: so this test may take quite a while to run , then . may - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on . professor b: uh , well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: i i guess , i 'm not sure . professor b: no , i mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the h m ms and and data for testing it . phd e: i just professor b: so i would n't so it it 's phd e: ok . so there 's professor b: so , training the recognizer , but , um um . but i think it 's trained on clean and is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: the wall street ? professor b: yeah . phd a: apparently , no . it 's training on a range between ten and twenty db , i think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: that 's what i got on professor b: ok . phd d: it 's , uh it 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: yeah , professor b: i see . phd a: and so the noise is there is a range of different noises also um which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . and there are noises that are different from the noises used on ti - digits . professor b: yeah . yeah . i mean , i would n't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . they probably put training uh , almost certain they put training data there too . maybe not . so . that 's that . anybody have anything else ? phd e: uh , one one last question on that . when did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: um , i guess i guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: yeah , it 's already there . yeah . phd e: ok , phd d: but they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , i think . phd e: good . phd d: so i guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . phd e: ok . professor b: oh , well that 's pretty soon . phd d: yeah , that 's just one more . grad c: is this their , um , svm recognizer ? phd d: no , it 's just a straightforward hmm . professor b: you know , their their they have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the svm is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . grad c: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor b: for the most part it 's it 's gaussian mixtures . grad c: oh , ok . oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: it 's just a hmm , gaussian mixture model . grad c: gaussian mixture hmm . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: yeah , the svm thing was an hmm also . it was just a it it it was like a hybrid , like grad c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: so , just so that i understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? is that the idea ? phd d: i i i think yeah , i i guess something like that . it 's like as painless as possible , phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: is what do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then just , phd e: i see . hmm . somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju yeah , i th i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: hmm . yeah , um . in fact , i mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable you know joe , right ? yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . so that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: ok . phd d: so sh shall we , like , add chuck also to the mailing lists ? it may be better , i mean , in that case if he 's going to professor b: yeah . phd d: because there 's a mailing list for this . professor b: is that ok ? phd e: yeah , that 'd be great . phd d: yeah , i guess maybe hari or hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to joe . or maybe if you phd e: i i could send him an email . phd d: well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: i i know him really well . phd d: yeah , so that 's just fine . phd e: i i was just talking with him on email the other day actually . phd d: so professor b: uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see . phd d: so phd e: about other things , but . professor b: do you have hari 's , uh ? phd e: i have hari 's professor b: yeah , so maybe just cc hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know , phd e: ok . would it be better if i asked hari to ask joe ? professor b: uh . why do n't you just ask joe but cc hari , and then in the note say , `` hari , hopefully this is ok with you `` . phd e: ok . professor b: and then if joe feels like he needs a confirmation , hari can answer it . phd e: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: that way you can get started asking { comment } joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and yeah . phd d: and there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , uh , between these people among these people . so just you can see all this mails in the isip web site phd e: ok . phd d: mississippi web site . phd e: ok . is that a password controlled ? phd d: yeah , it 's password protected . phd e: ok . phd d: so , like like , it 's , like professor b: have you thought about how long would be uh , most useful for you to go up to ogi ? phd a: i do n't know , uh . we can for september , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . and then at some point it maybe be better to work together again . professor b: oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: i professor b: i mean , it 's to you . phd a: maybe , yeah . professor b: i ju you guys are well , y anyway , you do n't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . i 'll phd a: but , uh huh . mm - hmm . professor b: support it either way , so . phd a: mm - hmm right . professor b: ok . uh . got anything to tell us ? grad c: um . well , i 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . just , um , i guess , let me put it in context . ok , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um to classify . and , uh , i was looking at some of the work that , uh , sangita was doing on these traps things . so she has , um she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from from timit , right ? the most common phonemes . and each one of them has has a a nice pattern over time , a one one second window . and it has has these patterns . um , so she has , um a trap for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . and , um , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . and then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how how closely related they are . and you start , um by merging the patterns that are most closely related . phd e: and you create a tree . grad c: and y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um . phd e: and then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: right , usually it 's when , um when the sol similarity measures , um , do n't go down as much . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and so , uh so you stop at that point . and what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: and , uh , one for silence and and another one for schwa schwa sounds . um , and , um , i was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these traps and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . um , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . um , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and i 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , ok , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable stable point . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um , and i 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um intermediate categories that , uh , um , i 'll later classify . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: are you looking at these in narrow bands ? grad c: um , right . f um , i 'm professor b: cuz that 's what you 're gon na be using , right ? grad c: yeah , yeah . i i have n't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the the representation of the data that i was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , um , over different lengths of time . so yeah . professor b: yeah , i mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that i wonder about with this . i mean , so one is is , again , looking at the same representation , grad c: ok . professor b: i mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: that that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . um , and then the other thing , uh , is that i wonder about with it , and and do n't take this in the wrong way , like i i know what i 'm doing or anything , grad c: right . professor b: but , i mean . um , just wondering really . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better . grad c: hmm . professor b: um , and i do n't know if that i mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this is n't right , but it 'd be something i 'd be concerned about . because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from from , uh from your your quals , john ohala saying that , uh , `` buh `` { comment } and `` puh `` { comment } differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . i mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . and yet , i would gue i would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , { comment } screwing up on this distinction . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . and the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they do n't work as well as we 'd like . and since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , `` how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: boy , i bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . so , what are we bringing to the party ? i mean , in fact what we wan na do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . grad c: mmm . professor b: so that 's th that 's the hard thing . i mean , i understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wan na have categories that , uh that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . and it 's something that you really think you can pick up . but i think it 's also essential that you wan na look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions . grad c: mm - hmm . hmm . professor b: so , i mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . y y this is more like , you know , how does lda differ from pca ? i mean , they 're the same sort of thing . they 're both orthogonalizing . grad c: right . professor b: but , you know and and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . you 're actually trying to find the the the the categories themselves . uh , so a little more like brain surgery , i think on yourself . uh . so , uh grad c: yeah . professor b: um , anyway . that 's my thought . grad c: ok . professor b: you 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . i mean , well w actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: yeah . professor b: and you 've been thinking about it more now , phd d: yeah . professor b: these categories . phd e: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i guess i do n't i do n't um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which i think is right , with the way i 've been looking at it . that it 's it 's it 's all not very clear to me . but it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . you know , however we do that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and and so i guess what i do n't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: right . phd e: but that 's sort of what you want to avoid . and so that feels i do n't know how to get out of this . professor b: well , here 's a here 's a , uh , uh here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , um , what do you really i mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . right ? because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it does n't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's got ta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: right . professor b: right ? phd e: so the question is , how far down ? professor b: and phd e: we could stop at words , but we do n't , right ? we go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: right , but i me i i think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . you know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , uh , um , metric of of goodness , uh , i if our phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , for for for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , i mean , that 's really i mean , d w in many applications you wan na go further . you wan na go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . phd e: yeah . but words would be a nice professor b: but , words are n't bad , yeah . and and phd e: yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you ca n't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? so you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . but the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? so when you look at conversational speech , for example , you do n't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . professor b: yeah . but but but we 're not trying for models of words here . see , so her here 's maybe where if the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then maybe it does n't matter that we ca n't have enough phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , what you wan na do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . phd e: right . right . professor b: and and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories i mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: right . professor b: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate . phd e: yeah . professor b: in some way i mean , we derive that all the time . in some ways it 's really not { comment } a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: uh - huh . professor b: uh , and uh yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of do n't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so that 's , uh , wh what i called a useless comments because i 'm not really telling you how to do it . but i mean , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: no , but i think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories . professor b: right . phd e: and i think this the important categories are the words , and not the phones . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: maybe . and so right . if you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters uh professor b: now , that being said , i think that that if you have something that is , um i once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: if you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like timit , then , you know , i i you the phones are gon na be right , actually , for the most part . phd e: yeah . yeah , professor b: so so , uh , it does n't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , uh , the phones are uh , you know , it 's gon na be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , um and it wo n't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: mmm . so it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it does n't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it does n't really hurt , and i 'm not sure how how to build that in . uh . professor b: yeah , i mean , i guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit i mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results i think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or or or , uh , even phones in in in in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . you know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i know one thing that happens is that you you you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . i mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones sometimes do n't get heard . and if that if that is if it uh , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . but , um , i do n't know , i w i would i would guess that you 'd grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: w i do n't know . anyway , that 's phd e: i think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: you know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . and so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: well that grad c: yeah . we 're we 're doing some sort of prediction of what phd e: yeah , exactly . professor b: oh , sure , that 's really big . grad c: yeah . professor b: uh , but i mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really is n't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , uh uh , than the machines are . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , i mean , that 's i right . we ca n't we ca n't get it at all without any language models . language models are there and important but but , uh uh . if we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there . so should we do some digits ? phd e: yeah . professor b: since we 're here ? phd e: go ahead , morgan . professor b: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: that 's all folks .

the team had pushed their code and was curious to know if the cvs system was working well . it was , at least from belgium . other team members needed to come back for the team to complete a few tasks .

what did the team discuss about cvs security ? </s> phd e: ok . professor b: ok , so we we had a meeting with , uh with hynek , um , in in which , uh , uh , sunil and stephane , uh summarized where they were and and , uh , talked about where we were gon na go . so that that happened sort of mid - week . uh . phd e: d did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: oh , yeah . yeah . it 's it 's it 's it was updated yesterday , phd e: cool . phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: you probably received the mail . phd e: oh , right , i saw i saw the note . phd a: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: what was the update ? phd a: what was the update ? so there is th then the all the new features that go in . professor b: yeah . phd a: the , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . these are the phd e: is the , um the cvs mechanism working well ? phd a: yeah . phd e: are are people , uh , up at ogi grabbing code uh , via that ? phd d: uh , i do n't think i do n't think phd e: or ? phd a: i do n't know if they use it , but . phd d: yeah , i i do n't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . phd e: uh - huh . mmm . professor b: i think it more likely that what it means is that when sunil is up there he will grab it . phd d: yeah . yeah . so right now nobody 's working on aurora there . phd e: yeah . professor b: they 're yeah . they 're working on a different task . phd e: i see . i see . phd d: yeah . phd e: ok . professor b: but what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , uh , pratibha will come back from from , uh , the east coast . uh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and and i guess actually , uh , after eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . so , actually everybody who 's working on it { comment } will be up there for at least a little while . so they 'll remotely access it from there . phd e: so has has anybody tried remotely accessing the cvs using , uh , uh , ssh ? professor b: yeah . phd a: um , i do n't know if hari did that or you d phd d: i { comment } can actually do it today . i mean , i can just log into phd e: have you tried it yet ? phd d: no , i did n't . so i i 'll try it today . phd e: ok . professor b: good idea . phd a: actually i i tried wh while when i installed the repository , i tried from belgium . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: i logged in there and i tried to import phd e: yeah ? it worked good ? phd a: yeah , it works . phd e: oh , good ! phd a: but it 's so , right now it 's the mechanism with ssh . phd d: oh . phd e: great ! phd a: i do n't s i did n't set up you can also set up a cvs server on a new port . it 's like well uh , a main server , or d you can do a cvs server . phd e: yeah . right . then that 's using the cvs password mechanism and all that , phd a: but . yeah , right . phd e: right ? phd a: but i did n't do that because i was not sure about security problems . i i would have to phd e: so w when you came in from belgian { comment } belgium , using ssh , uh , was it asking you for your own password into icsi ? so if yo you can only do that if you have an account at icsi ? phd a: right . yeah . phd e: ok . phd a: yeah . phd e: cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous cvs right ? phd a: yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a cvs server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: so that oh , ok . phd a: you you can set up priorities . phd e: so the anonymous mechanism phd a: you can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . phd e: ok . because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous cvs and i 'm just wondering uh , i mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd e: uh . professor b: yeah , for this stuff i do n't think we 're quite up to that . i mean , we 're still so much in development . phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , professor b: we want to have just the insiders . phd e: yeah , yeah . oh , i was n't suggesting for this . i 'm thinking of the meeting recorder { comment } stuff professor b: yeah . phd e: but . yeah . ok . cool . professor b: yeah . so , uh phd e: what 's new ? professor b: well , i mean , i think maybe the thing to me might be i me i 'm sure you 've just been working on on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? and so phd a: mmm , since the meeting , well , i i 've been i 've been train training a new vad and a new feature net . professor b: that was that was tuesday . ok . phd a: so they should be ready . um . professor b: but i guess maybe the thing since you were n't yo you guys were n't at that that meeting , might be just just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the the conclusions of the meeting . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: oh , great . professor b: so . phd e: you 're talking about the meeting with hynek ? professor b: yeah . cuz that was sort of , uh we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , uh , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: uh - huh . professor b: since he 's going out of town like now , and i 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and what do we freeze ? and , you know , what do we ? so , um . i mean , this software that these guys created was certainly a a key part . so then there 's something central and there are n't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . uh , um , and , um , phd e: yeah . that 's that 's nice . professor b: and then within that , i guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gon na be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . so keep a certain set of things constant . so , um . uh , maybe describe roughly what what we are keeping constant for now , or ? phd a: yeah . well . so we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . um . phd e: are you gon na use which of the two techniques ? phd a: so finally it 's it 's , um , wiener filtering on fft bins . and it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . and after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty fft bins . mmm . and , uh phd e: so this is on the uh , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: yeah , yeah . phd e: this is phd a: it was professor b: this this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: yeah . uh , it 's on the transfer function . so professor b: oh , it 's on the transfer function for the wiener filter . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so basically we tried different configuration within this idea . we tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . um . well , finally we end up with this configuration that works , uh , quite well . so we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: so professor b: actually , let me int eh , dave is n't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . this module , in principle , i i mean , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . i mean , because you you re - synthesize speech , right ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um . uh , well you do n't i guess you do n't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: we we do not fo professor b: uh , but you could . phd a: well well , we do , but we do n't do n't re - synthesize . in in the program we do n't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . we just use the clean fft bins . professor b: but you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . phd a: this is an option that then you can yeah . professor b: yeah , i gu i guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . but for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you do n't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . and if you do n't include that in the model , it does n't work very well . so in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . and , uh , generate new files or whatever , and and , uh , uh and then do the reverberation part . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd d: mmm . professor b: anyway . phd e: so dave has n't tried that yet ? professor b: no , no . he 's i mean , e phd e: i guess he 's busy with professor b: yeah , prelims , right . grad c: pre - prelim hell . professor b: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: so . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , but but , you know , that 'll uh , it 's clear that we , uh we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we ca n't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . and that 's i mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , uh and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . and that 's hard enough . i mean , i do n't think we really i mean , we 're trying to deal with that . in a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this aurora task . and we have , uh , the , uh , uh , lda stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . and we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . uh , even that 's hard enough . and and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i there 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . but now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . and , um , so dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . so we have to start since any almost any real situation is gon na have uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , um so there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: yeah , well , the , um , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: so that 's again , that that 's the wiener filtering , followed by , uh uh , that 's done at the fft level . then phd a: yeah , th then the mel filter bank , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: then the log operation , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: the the the filtering is done in the frequency domain ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . and then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: then the lda filter , professor b: lda filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: and then uh downsample , phd a: dct , professor b: dct , phd a: then , um , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also . professor b: right , and then in parallel with an a neural net . and then following neural net , some probably some orthogonalization . phd a: yeah . professor b: uh um . phd a: and finally frame dropping , which um , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . and the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . professor b: mm - hmm . so that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so the things that we , um , uh , i guess we sort of uh , there 's there 's some , uh , neat ideas for v a so , i mean , in i think there 's sort of like there 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . there 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . and there 's gon na be a host of those . but structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , uh , are are gon na need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a a significantly better vad , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we have n't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , opening up the second front . uh . phd e: the other half of the channel ? professor b: yeah , yeah , i mean , cuz we we have we have , uh , uh , half the the , uh , data rate that they allow . phd e: that what you mean ? professor b: and , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . it 's , you know , cheap , easy . uh . there 's a question about exactly how we do it . we probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so . um , { comment } i think tony robinson used to do i was saying this before . i think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . he used them as alternate features . put them together . phd e: hmm . professor b: uh . phd e: so if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gon na freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: mm - hmm . it , uh , phd e: in terms of ranking ? phd a: ri - right now it 's second . phd d: second . phd a: um . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: although you you know , you have n't tested it actually on the german and danish , have you ? phd a: no , we did n't . no , um . professor b: yeah . phd e: so on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: yeah . would it i mean but when you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh that the best system before got on , uh also without german and danish ? phd a: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd d: and th the ranking actually did n't change after the german and danish . so , yeah . professor b: well ranking did n't before , but i 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the german and danish , phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: so . phd e: where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were i mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . and so , i guess by that we were third , but i mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: uh - huh . i see . ok . professor b: uh , so institutionally we were we were second , with , uh , the third third system . phd e: we 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: see uh , no i think it 's also institutional , is n't it ? phd e: still institutionally second ? professor b: right ? i mean , i think both of their systems probably phd a: uh , we are between their two systems . so professor b: oh , are we ? phd a: i it is a triumph . phd d: yeah . professor b: is it ? phd d: their their first system is fifty - four point something . and , uh , we are fifty - three point something . phd a: but everything is within the range of one one percent . phd d: and their second system is also fifty - three point something . yeah , one percent . professor b: yeah , so so basically they 're all they 're all pretty close . phd e: oh , wow ! phd a: so . phd e: that 's very close . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: and and , um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . uh , i mean , one could argue about the lda and so forth but i i think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . but what what phd e: so how did they fill up this all these these bits ? i mean , if we 're u professor b: um , why are we using half ? well , so you could you c phd e: yeah . or how are they using more than half , i guess maybe is what i professor b: yeah , so i i think uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if i 'm wrong , but i i think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . uh , they have some cepstral modification , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? in our case we have a couple things . we have the on - line normalization and then we have the lda rasta . and they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . but in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . but there 's one difference . the lda rasta , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . and they 're not doing that . phd e: so th so professor b: so that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . grad c: get down . phd e: i see . i see . professor b: so phd e: so what if you did n't so do you explicitly downsample then ? do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd e: and what if we did n't do that ? would we get worse performance ? phd a: um yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: i think it does n't affect it , does it ? phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so i think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor b: and , uh , so i you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . so that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though i 'm saying i think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . and you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , `` oh , yeah , i understand `` , is is very helpful . phd e: so you would you 're you 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: well , that 's a question . i mean , we were talking about that . it looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh , phd e: cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: yeah . so , i mean , to do it after the mel conversion uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . there 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . uh . i sort of think you should , but i do n't know . phd a: what about norm normalizing also ? professor b: right . uh . well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , probably . some kind would be good . you know ? i would think . phd d: well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the uh , the frame . professor b: if you do or do n't normalize ? phd d: if yo if you do n't normalize and if if you do n't normalize . professor b: right . yes , so i mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . but i i w w my thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . and then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , `` ok , this much effect `` i mean , you do n't want to change six things and then see what happens . you want to change them one at a time . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . and then saying , oh uh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and you learn a lot . so , i would think you would wan na have some baseline that says , `` ok , we do n't normalize , this is what we get `` , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . but but the other question is so i think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . i agree . phd e: so this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: no , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: para professor b: we 're not talking about computation time here . phd e: s professor b: we 're ta i think we 're pretty far out . phd e: yeah . professor b: so it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . it 's depending on the same data as the other . phd e: same data . professor b: so it 's in parallel . phd e: ok . professor b: uh - huh . grad c: so with this , uh , new stream would you train up a vad on both both features , somehow ? phd d: no , i guess the vad has its own set of features . grad c: ok . that 's phd d: i mean , which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . phd a: and there is also the idea of using traps , maybe , for the vad , which , um phd d: yeah , that 's also phd a: well , pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at ibm , that it 's a good idea . so . grad c: would would that fit on the handset , or ? oh ! phd a: i have no idea . grad c: ok . phd d: well , it has t i mean the th phd a: it would have to fit but yeah . phd d: yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff . professor b: well , there 's the delays and the storage , grad c: ok . professor b: yeah . but i do n't think the storage is so big for that . grad c: right . phd d: yeah . professor b: i think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . um . and so i guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based traps , and and how big are they ? so that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: oh , right . professor b: maybe they can be little ones . grad c: yeah . cuz sh right . professor b: mini - traps . grad c: cuz she also does the , uh the correlation - based , uh , traps , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: right . and maybe for vad they would be ok . yeah . yeah . grad c: yeah . professor b: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: or a simple neural net , right ? i mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple uh , uh uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . it certainly does n't take much space . grad c: mm - hmm . right . professor b: so , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? do you need to have an added layer or something ? in which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . so . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh , uh so what 's next ? maybe s s remind us . phd e: so the meeting with hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gon na freeze in this system ? is that ? or was there ? were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: what to freeze and then what to do after we froze . phd e: mmm . professor b: yeah . and like i was saying , i think the you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh i mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . and then , uh , improving the vad . uh . so . phd d: so , i 'll , um i 'll actually after the meeting i 'll add the second stream to the vad and maybe i 'll start with the feature net in that case . it 's like , you 're looking at the vad , right ? phd a: uh , yeah . i i 've a new feature net ready also . phd d: i 'll for the vad ? phd a: no , uh . well p two network , one vad and one feature net . phd d: oh , you already have it ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: ok , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: yeah . phd d: ok . phd a: um . but , yeah , i think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . grad c: feature net . phd e: what about the , um uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , wall street journal part ? professor b: right . right . um . have you ever ? very good question . have you ever worked with the mississippi state h uh , software ? phd a: sorry . phd e: no . not yet . professor b: oh . well you you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary . phd e: ok . mm - hmm . so what how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? uh , i remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gon na give the system out or phd d: yeah . yeah . phd e: oh , so they 're gon na just deliver a system basically . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: do we already have it ? phd d: yeah , th i i guess it 's almost ready . phd e: uh - huh . phd d: so that 's what so they have released their , uh , document , describing the system . professor b: maybe you could , uh , point it at chuck , phd e: i see . professor b: because , i mean phd d: sure . phd e: so we 'll have to grab this over cvs or something ? phd d: it - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . phd e: is that how they do it ? ok . professor b: cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: ok . mm - hmm . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , uh , tweak joe about or whatever , phd e: sure . professor b: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff . phd e: ok . professor b: s phd d: so i 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . so i phd e: and it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: uh , i i think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . so they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? or ? phd d: uh , w i guess there is , uh , time during which people are gon na make suggestions . phd e: oh , but everybody 's gon na have to use the same values . phd d: after that . phd e: oh ! interesting . phd d: yeah , i guess . phd e: ok . phd d: so these sugges these this , uh , period during which people are gon na make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: yeah , so i th th certainly the thing that i would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . phd e: using our features . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , in which case , um , h hari or hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd e: and we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: yes . in this case , that 's right . phd e: yeah . professor b: that 's right . um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing uh . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh . but , um . yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like november fifteenth is right around the corner . and , um , if they have n't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gon na be for this , uh , when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding . i mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . it it it seems pretty tight to me . phd e: so wha what 's the significance of november fifteenth ? professor b: that 's when the evaluation is . phd e: ok . professor b: yeah . so , yeah , so after but , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . it would n't , you know , entirely surprise me . but , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , i 'm i 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . that would be , uh put us in an awkward position . but anyway . phd e: ok . professor b: great . yeah , i think that 'll be helpful . there 's there 's not anybody ogi currently who 's who 's , uh , working with this and and phd e: is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: i i think it 's it 's , um it depends how badly you do . i mean , i think that it it is uh . phd d: b phd e: this is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: yeah . well , i mean , it 's it 's conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if i 'm wrong , but my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . that you have n't come across you have n't invented features which are actually gon na do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . and , um , but it 's not the main emphasis . phd e: mmm . professor b: i mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: mmm . professor b: so it 's it 's a double check . so they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight . phd e: seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . y you passed the threshold or you did n't pass the threshold , and they should n't even care about what the score is . professor b: yeah . but , i mean , we 'll we 'll we 'll see what they come up with . uh , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: yeah . professor b: right ? it 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . so you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . phd d: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , it would n't surprise me if they did something like that with this . so again , if you 're if you get if it does n't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much . phd e: oh . professor b: but if it if you do n't if it does n't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then phd e: mm - hmm . so is this , uh ? uh , guenter was putting a bunch of wall street journal data on our disks . professor b: that 's it . phd e: so that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: yeah . phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so we have the data , just not the recognizer . ok . phd e: so this test may take quite a while to run , then . may - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on . professor b: uh , well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: i i guess , i 'm not sure . professor b: no , i mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the h m ms and and data for testing it . phd e: i just professor b: so i would n't so it it 's phd e: ok . so there 's professor b: so , training the recognizer , but , um um . but i think it 's trained on clean and is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: the wall street ? professor b: yeah . phd a: apparently , no . it 's training on a range between ten and twenty db , i think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: that 's what i got on professor b: ok . phd d: it 's , uh it 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: yeah , professor b: i see . phd a: and so the noise is there is a range of different noises also um which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . and there are noises that are different from the noises used on ti - digits . professor b: yeah . yeah . i mean , i would n't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . they probably put training uh , almost certain they put training data there too . maybe not . so . that 's that . anybody have anything else ? phd e: uh , one one last question on that . when did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: um , i guess i guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: yeah , it 's already there . yeah . phd e: ok , phd d: but they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , i think . phd e: good . phd d: so i guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . phd e: ok . professor b: oh , well that 's pretty soon . phd d: yeah , that 's just one more . grad c: is this their , um , svm recognizer ? phd d: no , it 's just a straightforward hmm . professor b: you know , their their they have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the svm is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . grad c: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor b: for the most part it 's it 's gaussian mixtures . grad c: oh , ok . oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: it 's just a hmm , gaussian mixture model . grad c: gaussian mixture hmm . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: yeah , the svm thing was an hmm also . it was just a it it it was like a hybrid , like grad c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: so , just so that i understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? is that the idea ? phd d: i i i think yeah , i i guess something like that . it 's like as painless as possible , phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: is what do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then just , phd e: i see . hmm . somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju yeah , i th i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: hmm . yeah , um . in fact , i mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable you know joe , right ? yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . so that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: ok . phd d: so sh shall we , like , add chuck also to the mailing lists ? it may be better , i mean , in that case if he 's going to professor b: yeah . phd d: because there 's a mailing list for this . professor b: is that ok ? phd e: yeah , that 'd be great . phd d: yeah , i guess maybe hari or hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to joe . or maybe if you phd e: i i could send him an email . phd d: well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: i i know him really well . phd d: yeah , so that 's just fine . phd e: i i was just talking with him on email the other day actually . phd d: so professor b: uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see . phd d: so phd e: about other things , but . professor b: do you have hari 's , uh ? phd e: i have hari 's professor b: yeah , so maybe just cc hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know , phd e: ok . would it be better if i asked hari to ask joe ? professor b: uh . why do n't you just ask joe but cc hari , and then in the note say , `` hari , hopefully this is ok with you `` . phd e: ok . professor b: and then if joe feels like he needs a confirmation , hari can answer it . phd e: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: that way you can get started asking { comment } joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and yeah . phd d: and there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , uh , between these people among these people . so just you can see all this mails in the isip web site phd e: ok . phd d: mississippi web site . phd e: ok . is that a password controlled ? phd d: yeah , it 's password protected . phd e: ok . phd d: so , like like , it 's , like professor b: have you thought about how long would be uh , most useful for you to go up to ogi ? phd a: i do n't know , uh . we can for september , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . and then at some point it maybe be better to work together again . professor b: oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: i professor b: i mean , it 's to you . phd a: maybe , yeah . professor b: i ju you guys are well , y anyway , you do n't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . i 'll phd a: but , uh huh . mm - hmm . professor b: support it either way , so . phd a: mm - hmm right . professor b: ok . uh . got anything to tell us ? grad c: um . well , i 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . just , um , i guess , let me put it in context . ok , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um to classify . and , uh , i was looking at some of the work that , uh , sangita was doing on these traps things . so she has , um she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from from timit , right ? the most common phonemes . and each one of them has has a a nice pattern over time , a one one second window . and it has has these patterns . um , so she has , um a trap for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . and , um , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . and then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how how closely related they are . and you start , um by merging the patterns that are most closely related . phd e: and you create a tree . grad c: and y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um . phd e: and then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: right , usually it 's when , um when the sol similarity measures , um , do n't go down as much . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and so , uh so you stop at that point . and what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: and , uh , one for silence and and another one for schwa schwa sounds . um , and , um , i was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these traps and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . um , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . um , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and i 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , ok , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable stable point . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um , and i 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um intermediate categories that , uh , um , i 'll later classify . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: are you looking at these in narrow bands ? grad c: um , right . f um , i 'm professor b: cuz that 's what you 're gon na be using , right ? grad c: yeah , yeah . i i have n't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the the representation of the data that i was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , um , over different lengths of time . so yeah . professor b: yeah , i mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that i wonder about with this . i mean , so one is is , again , looking at the same representation , grad c: ok . professor b: i mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: that that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . um , and then the other thing , uh , is that i wonder about with it , and and do n't take this in the wrong way , like i i know what i 'm doing or anything , grad c: right . professor b: but , i mean . um , just wondering really . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better . grad c: hmm . professor b: um , and i do n't know if that i mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this is n't right , but it 'd be something i 'd be concerned about . because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from from , uh from your your quals , john ohala saying that , uh , `` buh `` { comment } and `` puh `` { comment } differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . i mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . and yet , i would gue i would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , { comment } screwing up on this distinction . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . and the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they do n't work as well as we 'd like . and since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , `` how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: boy , i bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . so , what are we bringing to the party ? i mean , in fact what we wan na do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . grad c: mmm . professor b: so that 's th that 's the hard thing . i mean , i understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wan na have categories that , uh that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . and it 's something that you really think you can pick up . but i think it 's also essential that you wan na look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions . grad c: mm - hmm . hmm . professor b: so , i mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . y y this is more like , you know , how does lda differ from pca ? i mean , they 're the same sort of thing . they 're both orthogonalizing . grad c: right . professor b: but , you know and and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . you 're actually trying to find the the the the categories themselves . uh , so a little more like brain surgery , i think on yourself . uh . so , uh grad c: yeah . professor b: um , anyway . that 's my thought . grad c: ok . professor b: you 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . i mean , well w actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: yeah . professor b: and you 've been thinking about it more now , phd d: yeah . professor b: these categories . phd e: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i guess i do n't i do n't um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which i think is right , with the way i 've been looking at it . that it 's it 's it 's all not very clear to me . but it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . you know , however we do that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and and so i guess what i do n't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: right . phd e: but that 's sort of what you want to avoid . and so that feels i do n't know how to get out of this . professor b: well , here 's a here 's a , uh , uh here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , um , what do you really i mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . right ? because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it does n't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's got ta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: right . professor b: right ? phd e: so the question is , how far down ? professor b: and phd e: we could stop at words , but we do n't , right ? we go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: right , but i me i i think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . you know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , uh , um , metric of of goodness , uh , i if our phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , for for for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , i mean , that 's really i mean , d w in many applications you wan na go further . you wan na go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . phd e: yeah . but words would be a nice professor b: but , words are n't bad , yeah . and and phd e: yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you ca n't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? so you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . but the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? so when you look at conversational speech , for example , you do n't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . professor b: yeah . but but but we 're not trying for models of words here . see , so her here 's maybe where if the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then maybe it does n't matter that we ca n't have enough phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , what you wan na do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . phd e: right . right . professor b: and and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories i mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: right . professor b: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate . phd e: yeah . professor b: in some way i mean , we derive that all the time . in some ways it 's really not { comment } a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: uh - huh . professor b: uh , and uh yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of do n't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so that 's , uh , wh what i called a useless comments because i 'm not really telling you how to do it . but i mean , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: no , but i think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories . professor b: right . phd e: and i think this the important categories are the words , and not the phones . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: maybe . and so right . if you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters uh professor b: now , that being said , i think that that if you have something that is , um i once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: if you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like timit , then , you know , i i you the phones are gon na be right , actually , for the most part . phd e: yeah . yeah , professor b: so so , uh , it does n't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , uh , the phones are uh , you know , it 's gon na be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , um and it wo n't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: mmm . so it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it does n't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it does n't really hurt , and i 'm not sure how how to build that in . uh . professor b: yeah , i mean , i guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit i mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results i think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or or or , uh , even phones in in in in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . you know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i know one thing that happens is that you you you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . i mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones sometimes do n't get heard . and if that if that is if it uh , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . but , um , i do n't know , i w i would i would guess that you 'd grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: w i do n't know . anyway , that 's phd e: i think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: you know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . and so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: well that grad c: yeah . we 're we 're doing some sort of prediction of what phd e: yeah , exactly . professor b: oh , sure , that 's really big . grad c: yeah . professor b: uh , but i mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really is n't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , uh uh , than the machines are . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , i mean , that 's i right . we ca n't we ca n't get it at all without any language models . language models are there and important but but , uh uh . if we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there . so should we do some digits ? phd e: yeah . professor b: since we 're here ? phd e: go ahead , morgan . professor b: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: that 's all folks .

while remote cvs access seemed to be working , the team was unsure about setting up a cvs server on a new port . that required a password mechanism . but the team thought an anonymous cvs might be good to store transcripts as it relied on open source software .

what did the team discuss about ogi and cvs ? </s> phd e: ok . professor b: ok , so we we had a meeting with , uh with hynek , um , in in which , uh , uh , sunil and stephane , uh summarized where they were and and , uh , talked about where we were gon na go . so that that happened sort of mid - week . uh . phd e: d did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: oh , yeah . yeah . it 's it 's it 's it was updated yesterday , phd e: cool . phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: you probably received the mail . phd e: oh , right , i saw i saw the note . phd a: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: what was the update ? phd a: what was the update ? so there is th then the all the new features that go in . professor b: yeah . phd a: the , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . these are the phd e: is the , um the cvs mechanism working well ? phd a: yeah . phd e: are are people , uh , up at ogi grabbing code uh , via that ? phd d: uh , i do n't think i do n't think phd e: or ? phd a: i do n't know if they use it , but . phd d: yeah , i i do n't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . phd e: uh - huh . mmm . professor b: i think it more likely that what it means is that when sunil is up there he will grab it . phd d: yeah . yeah . so right now nobody 's working on aurora there . phd e: yeah . professor b: they 're yeah . they 're working on a different task . phd e: i see . i see . phd d: yeah . phd e: ok . professor b: but what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , uh , pratibha will come back from from , uh , the east coast . uh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and and i guess actually , uh , after eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . so , actually everybody who 's working on it { comment } will be up there for at least a little while . so they 'll remotely access it from there . phd e: so has has anybody tried remotely accessing the cvs using , uh , uh , ssh ? professor b: yeah . phd a: um , i do n't know if hari did that or you d phd d: i { comment } can actually do it today . i mean , i can just log into phd e: have you tried it yet ? phd d: no , i did n't . so i i 'll try it today . phd e: ok . professor b: good idea . phd a: actually i i tried wh while when i installed the repository , i tried from belgium . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: i logged in there and i tried to import phd e: yeah ? it worked good ? phd a: yeah , it works . phd e: oh , good ! phd a: but it 's so , right now it 's the mechanism with ssh . phd d: oh . phd e: great ! phd a: i do n't s i did n't set up you can also set up a cvs server on a new port . it 's like well uh , a main server , or d you can do a cvs server . phd e: yeah . right . then that 's using the cvs password mechanism and all that , phd a: but . yeah , right . phd e: right ? phd a: but i did n't do that because i was not sure about security problems . i i would have to phd e: so w when you came in from belgian { comment } belgium , using ssh , uh , was it asking you for your own password into icsi ? so if yo you can only do that if you have an account at icsi ? phd a: right . yeah . phd e: ok . phd a: yeah . phd e: cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous cvs right ? phd a: yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a cvs server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: so that oh , ok . phd a: you you can set up priorities . phd e: so the anonymous mechanism phd a: you can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . phd e: ok . because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous cvs and i 'm just wondering uh , i mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd e: uh . professor b: yeah , for this stuff i do n't think we 're quite up to that . i mean , we 're still so much in development . phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , professor b: we want to have just the insiders . phd e: yeah , yeah . oh , i was n't suggesting for this . i 'm thinking of the meeting recorder { comment } stuff professor b: yeah . phd e: but . yeah . ok . cool . professor b: yeah . so , uh phd e: what 's new ? professor b: well , i mean , i think maybe the thing to me might be i me i 'm sure you 've just been working on on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? and so phd a: mmm , since the meeting , well , i i 've been i 've been train training a new vad and a new feature net . professor b: that was that was tuesday . ok . phd a: so they should be ready . um . professor b: but i guess maybe the thing since you were n't yo you guys were n't at that that meeting , might be just just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the the conclusions of the meeting . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: oh , great . professor b: so . phd e: you 're talking about the meeting with hynek ? professor b: yeah . cuz that was sort of , uh we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , uh , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: uh - huh . professor b: since he 's going out of town like now , and i 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and what do we freeze ? and , you know , what do we ? so , um . i mean , this software that these guys created was certainly a a key part . so then there 's something central and there are n't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . uh , um , and , um , phd e: yeah . that 's that 's nice . professor b: and then within that , i guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gon na be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . so keep a certain set of things constant . so , um . uh , maybe describe roughly what what we are keeping constant for now , or ? phd a: yeah . well . so we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . um . phd e: are you gon na use which of the two techniques ? phd a: so finally it 's it 's , um , wiener filtering on fft bins . and it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . and after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty fft bins . mmm . and , uh phd e: so this is on the uh , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: yeah , yeah . phd e: this is phd a: it was professor b: this this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: yeah . uh , it 's on the transfer function . so professor b: oh , it 's on the transfer function for the wiener filter . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so basically we tried different configuration within this idea . we tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . um . well , finally we end up with this configuration that works , uh , quite well . so we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: so professor b: actually , let me int eh , dave is n't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . this module , in principle , i i mean , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . i mean , because you you re - synthesize speech , right ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um . uh , well you do n't i guess you do n't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: we we do not fo professor b: uh , but you could . phd a: well well , we do , but we do n't do n't re - synthesize . in in the program we do n't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . we just use the clean fft bins . professor b: but you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . phd a: this is an option that then you can yeah . professor b: yeah , i gu i guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . but for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you do n't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . and if you do n't include that in the model , it does n't work very well . so in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . and , uh , generate new files or whatever , and and , uh , uh and then do the reverberation part . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd d: mmm . professor b: anyway . phd e: so dave has n't tried that yet ? professor b: no , no . he 's i mean , e phd e: i guess he 's busy with professor b: yeah , prelims , right . grad c: pre - prelim hell . professor b: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: so . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , but but , you know , that 'll uh , it 's clear that we , uh we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we ca n't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . and that 's i mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , uh and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . and that 's hard enough . i mean , i do n't think we really i mean , we 're trying to deal with that . in a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this aurora task . and we have , uh , the , uh , uh , lda stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . and we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . uh , even that 's hard enough . and and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i there 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . but now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . and , um , so dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . so we have to start since any almost any real situation is gon na have uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , um so there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: yeah , well , the , um , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: so that 's again , that that 's the wiener filtering , followed by , uh uh , that 's done at the fft level . then phd a: yeah , th then the mel filter bank , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: then the log operation , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: the the the filtering is done in the frequency domain ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . and then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: then the lda filter , professor b: lda filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: and then uh downsample , phd a: dct , professor b: dct , phd a: then , um , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also . professor b: right , and then in parallel with an a neural net . and then following neural net , some probably some orthogonalization . phd a: yeah . professor b: uh um . phd a: and finally frame dropping , which um , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . and the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . professor b: mm - hmm . so that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so the things that we , um , uh , i guess we sort of uh , there 's there 's some , uh , neat ideas for v a so , i mean , in i think there 's sort of like there 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . there 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . and there 's gon na be a host of those . but structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , uh , are are gon na need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a a significantly better vad , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we have n't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , opening up the second front . uh . phd e: the other half of the channel ? professor b: yeah , yeah , i mean , cuz we we have we have , uh , uh , half the the , uh , data rate that they allow . phd e: that what you mean ? professor b: and , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . it 's , you know , cheap , easy . uh . there 's a question about exactly how we do it . we probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so . um , { comment } i think tony robinson used to do i was saying this before . i think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . he used them as alternate features . put them together . phd e: hmm . professor b: uh . phd e: so if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gon na freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: mm - hmm . it , uh , phd e: in terms of ranking ? phd a: ri - right now it 's second . phd d: second . phd a: um . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: although you you know , you have n't tested it actually on the german and danish , have you ? phd a: no , we did n't . no , um . professor b: yeah . phd e: so on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: yeah . would it i mean but when you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh that the best system before got on , uh also without german and danish ? phd a: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd d: and th the ranking actually did n't change after the german and danish . so , yeah . professor b: well ranking did n't before , but i 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the german and danish , phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: so . phd e: where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were i mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . and so , i guess by that we were third , but i mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: uh - huh . i see . ok . professor b: uh , so institutionally we were we were second , with , uh , the third third system . phd e: we 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: see uh , no i think it 's also institutional , is n't it ? phd e: still institutionally second ? professor b: right ? i mean , i think both of their systems probably phd a: uh , we are between their two systems . so professor b: oh , are we ? phd a: i it is a triumph . phd d: yeah . professor b: is it ? phd d: their their first system is fifty - four point something . and , uh , we are fifty - three point something . phd a: but everything is within the range of one one percent . phd d: and their second system is also fifty - three point something . yeah , one percent . professor b: yeah , so so basically they 're all they 're all pretty close . phd e: oh , wow ! phd a: so . phd e: that 's very close . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: and and , um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . uh , i mean , one could argue about the lda and so forth but i i think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . but what what phd e: so how did they fill up this all these these bits ? i mean , if we 're u professor b: um , why are we using half ? well , so you could you c phd e: yeah . or how are they using more than half , i guess maybe is what i professor b: yeah , so i i think uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if i 'm wrong , but i i think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . uh , they have some cepstral modification , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? in our case we have a couple things . we have the on - line normalization and then we have the lda rasta . and they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . but in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . but there 's one difference . the lda rasta , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . and they 're not doing that . phd e: so th so professor b: so that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . grad c: get down . phd e: i see . i see . professor b: so phd e: so what if you did n't so do you explicitly downsample then ? do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd e: and what if we did n't do that ? would we get worse performance ? phd a: um yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: i think it does n't affect it , does it ? phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so i think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor b: and , uh , so i you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . so that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though i 'm saying i think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . and you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , `` oh , yeah , i understand `` , is is very helpful . phd e: so you would you 're you 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: well , that 's a question . i mean , we were talking about that . it looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh , phd e: cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: yeah . so , i mean , to do it after the mel conversion uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . there 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . uh . i sort of think you should , but i do n't know . phd a: what about norm normalizing also ? professor b: right . uh . well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , probably . some kind would be good . you know ? i would think . phd d: well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the uh , the frame . professor b: if you do or do n't normalize ? phd d: if yo if you do n't normalize and if if you do n't normalize . professor b: right . yes , so i mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . but i i w w my thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . and then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , `` ok , this much effect `` i mean , you do n't want to change six things and then see what happens . you want to change them one at a time . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . and then saying , oh uh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and you learn a lot . so , i would think you would wan na have some baseline that says , `` ok , we do n't normalize , this is what we get `` , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . but but the other question is so i think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . i agree . phd e: so this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: no , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: para professor b: we 're not talking about computation time here . phd e: s professor b: we 're ta i think we 're pretty far out . phd e: yeah . professor b: so it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . it 's depending on the same data as the other . phd e: same data . professor b: so it 's in parallel . phd e: ok . professor b: uh - huh . grad c: so with this , uh , new stream would you train up a vad on both both features , somehow ? phd d: no , i guess the vad has its own set of features . grad c: ok . that 's phd d: i mean , which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . phd a: and there is also the idea of using traps , maybe , for the vad , which , um phd d: yeah , that 's also phd a: well , pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at ibm , that it 's a good idea . so . grad c: would would that fit on the handset , or ? oh ! phd a: i have no idea . grad c: ok . phd d: well , it has t i mean the th phd a: it would have to fit but yeah . phd d: yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff . professor b: well , there 's the delays and the storage , grad c: ok . professor b: yeah . but i do n't think the storage is so big for that . grad c: right . phd d: yeah . professor b: i think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . um . and so i guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based traps , and and how big are they ? so that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: oh , right . professor b: maybe they can be little ones . grad c: yeah . cuz sh right . professor b: mini - traps . grad c: cuz she also does the , uh the correlation - based , uh , traps , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: right . and maybe for vad they would be ok . yeah . yeah . grad c: yeah . professor b: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: or a simple neural net , right ? i mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple uh , uh uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . it certainly does n't take much space . grad c: mm - hmm . right . professor b: so , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? do you need to have an added layer or something ? in which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . so . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh , uh so what 's next ? maybe s s remind us . phd e: so the meeting with hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gon na freeze in this system ? is that ? or was there ? were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: what to freeze and then what to do after we froze . phd e: mmm . professor b: yeah . and like i was saying , i think the you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh i mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . and then , uh , improving the vad . uh . so . phd d: so , i 'll , um i 'll actually after the meeting i 'll add the second stream to the vad and maybe i 'll start with the feature net in that case . it 's like , you 're looking at the vad , right ? phd a: uh , yeah . i i 've a new feature net ready also . phd d: i 'll for the vad ? phd a: no , uh . well p two network , one vad and one feature net . phd d: oh , you already have it ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: ok , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: yeah . phd d: ok . phd a: um . but , yeah , i think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . grad c: feature net . phd e: what about the , um uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , wall street journal part ? professor b: right . right . um . have you ever ? very good question . have you ever worked with the mississippi state h uh , software ? phd a: sorry . phd e: no . not yet . professor b: oh . well you you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary . phd e: ok . mm - hmm . so what how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? uh , i remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gon na give the system out or phd d: yeah . yeah . phd e: oh , so they 're gon na just deliver a system basically . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: do we already have it ? phd d: yeah , th i i guess it 's almost ready . phd e: uh - huh . phd d: so that 's what so they have released their , uh , document , describing the system . professor b: maybe you could , uh , point it at chuck , phd e: i see . professor b: because , i mean phd d: sure . phd e: so we 'll have to grab this over cvs or something ? phd d: it - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . phd e: is that how they do it ? ok . professor b: cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: ok . mm - hmm . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , uh , tweak joe about or whatever , phd e: sure . professor b: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff . phd e: ok . professor b: s phd d: so i 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . so i phd e: and it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: uh , i i think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . so they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? or ? phd d: uh , w i guess there is , uh , time during which people are gon na make suggestions . phd e: oh , but everybody 's gon na have to use the same values . phd d: after that . phd e: oh ! interesting . phd d: yeah , i guess . phd e: ok . phd d: so these sugges these this , uh , period during which people are gon na make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: yeah , so i th th certainly the thing that i would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . phd e: using our features . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , in which case , um , h hari or hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd e: and we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: yes . in this case , that 's right . phd e: yeah . professor b: that 's right . um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing uh . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh . but , um . yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like november fifteenth is right around the corner . and , um , if they have n't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gon na be for this , uh , when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding . i mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . it it it seems pretty tight to me . phd e: so wha what 's the significance of november fifteenth ? professor b: that 's when the evaluation is . phd e: ok . professor b: yeah . so , yeah , so after but , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . it would n't , you know , entirely surprise me . but , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , i 'm i 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . that would be , uh put us in an awkward position . but anyway . phd e: ok . professor b: great . yeah , i think that 'll be helpful . there 's there 's not anybody ogi currently who 's who 's , uh , working with this and and phd e: is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: i i think it 's it 's , um it depends how badly you do . i mean , i think that it it is uh . phd d: b phd e: this is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: yeah . well , i mean , it 's it 's conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if i 'm wrong , but my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . that you have n't come across you have n't invented features which are actually gon na do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . and , um , but it 's not the main emphasis . phd e: mmm . professor b: i mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: mmm . professor b: so it 's it 's a double check . so they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight . phd e: seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . y you passed the threshold or you did n't pass the threshold , and they should n't even care about what the score is . professor b: yeah . but , i mean , we 'll we 'll we 'll see what they come up with . uh , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: yeah . professor b: right ? it 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . so you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . phd d: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , it would n't surprise me if they did something like that with this . so again , if you 're if you get if it does n't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much . phd e: oh . professor b: but if it if you do n't if it does n't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then phd e: mm - hmm . so is this , uh ? uh , guenter was putting a bunch of wall street journal data on our disks . professor b: that 's it . phd e: so that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: yeah . phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so we have the data , just not the recognizer . ok . phd e: so this test may take quite a while to run , then . may - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on . professor b: uh , well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: i i guess , i 'm not sure . professor b: no , i mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the h m ms and and data for testing it . phd e: i just professor b: so i would n't so it it 's phd e: ok . so there 's professor b: so , training the recognizer , but , um um . but i think it 's trained on clean and is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: the wall street ? professor b: yeah . phd a: apparently , no . it 's training on a range between ten and twenty db , i think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: that 's what i got on professor b: ok . phd d: it 's , uh it 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: yeah , professor b: i see . phd a: and so the noise is there is a range of different noises also um which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . and there are noises that are different from the noises used on ti - digits . professor b: yeah . yeah . i mean , i would n't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . they probably put training uh , almost certain they put training data there too . maybe not . so . that 's that . anybody have anything else ? phd e: uh , one one last question on that . when did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: um , i guess i guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: yeah , it 's already there . yeah . phd e: ok , phd d: but they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , i think . phd e: good . phd d: so i guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . phd e: ok . professor b: oh , well that 's pretty soon . phd d: yeah , that 's just one more . grad c: is this their , um , svm recognizer ? phd d: no , it 's just a straightforward hmm . professor b: you know , their their they have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the svm is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . grad c: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor b: for the most part it 's it 's gaussian mixtures . grad c: oh , ok . oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: it 's just a hmm , gaussian mixture model . grad c: gaussian mixture hmm . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: yeah , the svm thing was an hmm also . it was just a it it it was like a hybrid , like grad c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: so , just so that i understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? is that the idea ? phd d: i i i think yeah , i i guess something like that . it 's like as painless as possible , phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: is what do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then just , phd e: i see . hmm . somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju yeah , i th i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: hmm . yeah , um . in fact , i mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable you know joe , right ? yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . so that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: ok . phd d: so sh shall we , like , add chuck also to the mailing lists ? it may be better , i mean , in that case if he 's going to professor b: yeah . phd d: because there 's a mailing list for this . professor b: is that ok ? phd e: yeah , that 'd be great . phd d: yeah , i guess maybe hari or hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to joe . or maybe if you phd e: i i could send him an email . phd d: well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: i i know him really well . phd d: yeah , so that 's just fine . phd e: i i was just talking with him on email the other day actually . phd d: so professor b: uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see . phd d: so phd e: about other things , but . professor b: do you have hari 's , uh ? phd e: i have hari 's professor b: yeah , so maybe just cc hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know , phd e: ok . would it be better if i asked hari to ask joe ? professor b: uh . why do n't you just ask joe but cc hari , and then in the note say , `` hari , hopefully this is ok with you `` . phd e: ok . professor b: and then if joe feels like he needs a confirmation , hari can answer it . phd e: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: that way you can get started asking { comment } joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and yeah . phd d: and there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , uh , between these people among these people . so just you can see all this mails in the isip web site phd e: ok . phd d: mississippi web site . phd e: ok . is that a password controlled ? phd d: yeah , it 's password protected . phd e: ok . phd d: so , like like , it 's , like professor b: have you thought about how long would be uh , most useful for you to go up to ogi ? phd a: i do n't know , uh . we can for september , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . and then at some point it maybe be better to work together again . professor b: oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: i professor b: i mean , it 's to you . phd a: maybe , yeah . professor b: i ju you guys are well , y anyway , you do n't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . i 'll phd a: but , uh huh . mm - hmm . professor b: support it either way , so . phd a: mm - hmm right . professor b: ok . uh . got anything to tell us ? grad c: um . well , i 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . just , um , i guess , let me put it in context . ok , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um to classify . and , uh , i was looking at some of the work that , uh , sangita was doing on these traps things . so she has , um she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from from timit , right ? the most common phonemes . and each one of them has has a a nice pattern over time , a one one second window . and it has has these patterns . um , so she has , um a trap for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . and , um , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . and then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how how closely related they are . and you start , um by merging the patterns that are most closely related . phd e: and you create a tree . grad c: and y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um . phd e: and then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: right , usually it 's when , um when the sol similarity measures , um , do n't go down as much . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and so , uh so you stop at that point . and what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: and , uh , one for silence and and another one for schwa schwa sounds . um , and , um , i was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these traps and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . um , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . um , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and i 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , ok , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable stable point . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um , and i 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um intermediate categories that , uh , um , i 'll later classify . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: are you looking at these in narrow bands ? grad c: um , right . f um , i 'm professor b: cuz that 's what you 're gon na be using , right ? grad c: yeah , yeah . i i have n't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the the representation of the data that i was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , um , over different lengths of time . so yeah . professor b: yeah , i mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that i wonder about with this . i mean , so one is is , again , looking at the same representation , grad c: ok . professor b: i mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: that that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . um , and then the other thing , uh , is that i wonder about with it , and and do n't take this in the wrong way , like i i know what i 'm doing or anything , grad c: right . professor b: but , i mean . um , just wondering really . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better . grad c: hmm . professor b: um , and i do n't know if that i mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this is n't right , but it 'd be something i 'd be concerned about . because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from from , uh from your your quals , john ohala saying that , uh , `` buh `` { comment } and `` puh `` { comment } differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . i mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . and yet , i would gue i would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , { comment } screwing up on this distinction . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . and the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they do n't work as well as we 'd like . and since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , `` how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: boy , i bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . so , what are we bringing to the party ? i mean , in fact what we wan na do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . grad c: mmm . professor b: so that 's th that 's the hard thing . i mean , i understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wan na have categories that , uh that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . and it 's something that you really think you can pick up . but i think it 's also essential that you wan na look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions . grad c: mm - hmm . hmm . professor b: so , i mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . y y this is more like , you know , how does lda differ from pca ? i mean , they 're the same sort of thing . they 're both orthogonalizing . grad c: right . professor b: but , you know and and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . you 're actually trying to find the the the the categories themselves . uh , so a little more like brain surgery , i think on yourself . uh . so , uh grad c: yeah . professor b: um , anyway . that 's my thought . grad c: ok . professor b: you 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . i mean , well w actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: yeah . professor b: and you 've been thinking about it more now , phd d: yeah . professor b: these categories . phd e: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i guess i do n't i do n't um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which i think is right , with the way i 've been looking at it . that it 's it 's it 's all not very clear to me . but it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . you know , however we do that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and and so i guess what i do n't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: right . phd e: but that 's sort of what you want to avoid . and so that feels i do n't know how to get out of this . professor b: well , here 's a here 's a , uh , uh here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , um , what do you really i mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . right ? because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it does n't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's got ta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: right . professor b: right ? phd e: so the question is , how far down ? professor b: and phd e: we could stop at words , but we do n't , right ? we go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: right , but i me i i think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . you know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , uh , um , metric of of goodness , uh , i if our phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , for for for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , i mean , that 's really i mean , d w in many applications you wan na go further . you wan na go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . phd e: yeah . but words would be a nice professor b: but , words are n't bad , yeah . and and phd e: yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you ca n't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? so you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . but the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? so when you look at conversational speech , for example , you do n't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . professor b: yeah . but but but we 're not trying for models of words here . see , so her here 's maybe where if the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then maybe it does n't matter that we ca n't have enough phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , what you wan na do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . phd e: right . right . professor b: and and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories i mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: right . professor b: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate . phd e: yeah . professor b: in some way i mean , we derive that all the time . in some ways it 's really not { comment } a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: uh - huh . professor b: uh , and uh yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of do n't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so that 's , uh , wh what i called a useless comments because i 'm not really telling you how to do it . but i mean , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: no , but i think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories . professor b: right . phd e: and i think this the important categories are the words , and not the phones . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: maybe . and so right . if you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters uh professor b: now , that being said , i think that that if you have something that is , um i once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: if you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like timit , then , you know , i i you the phones are gon na be right , actually , for the most part . phd e: yeah . yeah , professor b: so so , uh , it does n't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , uh , the phones are uh , you know , it 's gon na be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , um and it wo n't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: mmm . so it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it does n't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it does n't really hurt , and i 'm not sure how how to build that in . uh . professor b: yeah , i mean , i guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit i mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results i think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or or or , uh , even phones in in in in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . you know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i know one thing that happens is that you you you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . i mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones sometimes do n't get heard . and if that if that is if it uh , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . but , um , i do n't know , i w i would i would guess that you 'd grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: w i do n't know . anyway , that 's phd e: i think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: you know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . and so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: well that grad c: yeah . we 're we 're doing some sort of prediction of what phd e: yeah , exactly . professor b: oh , sure , that 's really big . grad c: yeah . professor b: uh , but i mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really is n't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , uh uh , than the machines are . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , i mean , that 's i right . we ca n't we ca n't get it at all without any language models . language models are there and important but but , uh uh . if we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there . so should we do some digits ? phd e: yeah . professor b: since we 're here ? phd e: go ahead , morgan . professor b: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: that 's all folks .

the team wanted to know if ogi was using cvs to access the code . it seemed that they were not . no one there was working on aurora . though , they were expecting sunil to grab it and start working on aurora once he returned .

what did the team discuss about evaluation ? </s> phd e: ok . professor b: ok , so we we had a meeting with , uh with hynek , um , in in which , uh , uh , sunil and stephane , uh summarized where they were and and , uh , talked about where we were gon na go . so that that happened sort of mid - week . uh . phd e: d did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: oh , yeah . yeah . it 's it 's it 's it was updated yesterday , phd e: cool . phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: you probably received the mail . phd e: oh , right , i saw i saw the note . phd a: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: what was the update ? phd a: what was the update ? so there is th then the all the new features that go in . professor b: yeah . phd a: the , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . these are the phd e: is the , um the cvs mechanism working well ? phd a: yeah . phd e: are are people , uh , up at ogi grabbing code uh , via that ? phd d: uh , i do n't think i do n't think phd e: or ? phd a: i do n't know if they use it , but . phd d: yeah , i i do n't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . phd e: uh - huh . mmm . professor b: i think it more likely that what it means is that when sunil is up there he will grab it . phd d: yeah . yeah . so right now nobody 's working on aurora there . phd e: yeah . professor b: they 're yeah . they 're working on a different task . phd e: i see . i see . phd d: yeah . phd e: ok . professor b: but what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , uh , pratibha will come back from from , uh , the east coast . uh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and and i guess actually , uh , after eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . so , actually everybody who 's working on it { comment } will be up there for at least a little while . so they 'll remotely access it from there . phd e: so has has anybody tried remotely accessing the cvs using , uh , uh , ssh ? professor b: yeah . phd a: um , i do n't know if hari did that or you d phd d: i { comment } can actually do it today . i mean , i can just log into phd e: have you tried it yet ? phd d: no , i did n't . so i i 'll try it today . phd e: ok . professor b: good idea . phd a: actually i i tried wh while when i installed the repository , i tried from belgium . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: i logged in there and i tried to import phd e: yeah ? it worked good ? phd a: yeah , it works . phd e: oh , good ! phd a: but it 's so , right now it 's the mechanism with ssh . phd d: oh . phd e: great ! phd a: i do n't s i did n't set up you can also set up a cvs server on a new port . it 's like well uh , a main server , or d you can do a cvs server . phd e: yeah . right . then that 's using the cvs password mechanism and all that , phd a: but . yeah , right . phd e: right ? phd a: but i did n't do that because i was not sure about security problems . i i would have to phd e: so w when you came in from belgian { comment } belgium , using ssh , uh , was it asking you for your own password into icsi ? so if yo you can only do that if you have an account at icsi ? phd a: right . yeah . phd e: ok . phd a: yeah . phd e: cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous cvs right ? phd a: yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a cvs server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: so that oh , ok . phd a: you you can set up priorities . phd e: so the anonymous mechanism phd a: you can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . phd e: ok . because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous cvs and i 'm just wondering uh , i mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd e: uh . professor b: yeah , for this stuff i do n't think we 're quite up to that . i mean , we 're still so much in development . phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , professor b: we want to have just the insiders . phd e: yeah , yeah . oh , i was n't suggesting for this . i 'm thinking of the meeting recorder { comment } stuff professor b: yeah . phd e: but . yeah . ok . cool . professor b: yeah . so , uh phd e: what 's new ? professor b: well , i mean , i think maybe the thing to me might be i me i 'm sure you 've just been working on on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? and so phd a: mmm , since the meeting , well , i i 've been i 've been train training a new vad and a new feature net . professor b: that was that was tuesday . ok . phd a: so they should be ready . um . professor b: but i guess maybe the thing since you were n't yo you guys were n't at that that meeting , might be just just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the the conclusions of the meeting . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: oh , great . professor b: so . phd e: you 're talking about the meeting with hynek ? professor b: yeah . cuz that was sort of , uh we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , uh , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: uh - huh . professor b: since he 's going out of town like now , and i 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and what do we freeze ? and , you know , what do we ? so , um . i mean , this software that these guys created was certainly a a key part . so then there 's something central and there are n't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . uh , um , and , um , phd e: yeah . that 's that 's nice . professor b: and then within that , i guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gon na be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . so keep a certain set of things constant . so , um . uh , maybe describe roughly what what we are keeping constant for now , or ? phd a: yeah . well . so we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . um . phd e: are you gon na use which of the two techniques ? phd a: so finally it 's it 's , um , wiener filtering on fft bins . and it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . and after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty fft bins . mmm . and , uh phd e: so this is on the uh , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: yeah , yeah . phd e: this is phd a: it was professor b: this this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: yeah . uh , it 's on the transfer function . so professor b: oh , it 's on the transfer function for the wiener filter . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so basically we tried different configuration within this idea . we tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . um . well , finally we end up with this configuration that works , uh , quite well . so we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: so professor b: actually , let me int eh , dave is n't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . this module , in principle , i i mean , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . i mean , because you you re - synthesize speech , right ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um . uh , well you do n't i guess you do n't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: we we do not fo professor b: uh , but you could . phd a: well well , we do , but we do n't do n't re - synthesize . in in the program we do n't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . we just use the clean fft bins . professor b: but you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . phd a: this is an option that then you can yeah . professor b: yeah , i gu i guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . but for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you do n't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . and if you do n't include that in the model , it does n't work very well . so in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . and , uh , generate new files or whatever , and and , uh , uh and then do the reverberation part . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd d: mmm . professor b: anyway . phd e: so dave has n't tried that yet ? professor b: no , no . he 's i mean , e phd e: i guess he 's busy with professor b: yeah , prelims , right . grad c: pre - prelim hell . professor b: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: so . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , but but , you know , that 'll uh , it 's clear that we , uh we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we ca n't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . and that 's i mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , uh and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . and that 's hard enough . i mean , i do n't think we really i mean , we 're trying to deal with that . in a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this aurora task . and we have , uh , the , uh , uh , lda stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . and we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . uh , even that 's hard enough . and and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i there 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . but now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . and , um , so dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . so we have to start since any almost any real situation is gon na have uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , um so there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: yeah , well , the , um , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: so that 's again , that that 's the wiener filtering , followed by , uh uh , that 's done at the fft level . then phd a: yeah , th then the mel filter bank , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: then the log operation , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: the the the filtering is done in the frequency domain ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . and then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: then the lda filter , professor b: lda filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: and then uh downsample , phd a: dct , professor b: dct , phd a: then , um , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also . professor b: right , and then in parallel with an a neural net . and then following neural net , some probably some orthogonalization . phd a: yeah . professor b: uh um . phd a: and finally frame dropping , which um , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . and the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . professor b: mm - hmm . so that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so the things that we , um , uh , i guess we sort of uh , there 's there 's some , uh , neat ideas for v a so , i mean , in i think there 's sort of like there 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . there 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . and there 's gon na be a host of those . but structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , uh , are are gon na need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a a significantly better vad , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we have n't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , opening up the second front . uh . phd e: the other half of the channel ? professor b: yeah , yeah , i mean , cuz we we have we have , uh , uh , half the the , uh , data rate that they allow . phd e: that what you mean ? professor b: and , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . it 's , you know , cheap , easy . uh . there 's a question about exactly how we do it . we probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so . um , { comment } i think tony robinson used to do i was saying this before . i think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . he used them as alternate features . put them together . phd e: hmm . professor b: uh . phd e: so if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gon na freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: mm - hmm . it , uh , phd e: in terms of ranking ? phd a: ri - right now it 's second . phd d: second . phd a: um . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: although you you know , you have n't tested it actually on the german and danish , have you ? phd a: no , we did n't . no , um . professor b: yeah . phd e: so on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: yeah . would it i mean but when you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh that the best system before got on , uh also without german and danish ? phd a: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd d: and th the ranking actually did n't change after the german and danish . so , yeah . professor b: well ranking did n't before , but i 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the german and danish , phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: so . phd e: where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were i mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . and so , i guess by that we were third , but i mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: uh - huh . i see . ok . professor b: uh , so institutionally we were we were second , with , uh , the third third system . phd e: we 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: see uh , no i think it 's also institutional , is n't it ? phd e: still institutionally second ? professor b: right ? i mean , i think both of their systems probably phd a: uh , we are between their two systems . so professor b: oh , are we ? phd a: i it is a triumph . phd d: yeah . professor b: is it ? phd d: their their first system is fifty - four point something . and , uh , we are fifty - three point something . phd a: but everything is within the range of one one percent . phd d: and their second system is also fifty - three point something . yeah , one percent . professor b: yeah , so so basically they 're all they 're all pretty close . phd e: oh , wow ! phd a: so . phd e: that 's very close . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: and and , um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . uh , i mean , one could argue about the lda and so forth but i i think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . but what what phd e: so how did they fill up this all these these bits ? i mean , if we 're u professor b: um , why are we using half ? well , so you could you c phd e: yeah . or how are they using more than half , i guess maybe is what i professor b: yeah , so i i think uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if i 'm wrong , but i i think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . uh , they have some cepstral modification , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? in our case we have a couple things . we have the on - line normalization and then we have the lda rasta . and they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . but in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . but there 's one difference . the lda rasta , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . and they 're not doing that . phd e: so th so professor b: so that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . grad c: get down . phd e: i see . i see . professor b: so phd e: so what if you did n't so do you explicitly downsample then ? do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd e: and what if we did n't do that ? would we get worse performance ? phd a: um yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: i think it does n't affect it , does it ? phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so i think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor b: and , uh , so i you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . so that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though i 'm saying i think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . and you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , `` oh , yeah , i understand `` , is is very helpful . phd e: so you would you 're you 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: well , that 's a question . i mean , we were talking about that . it looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh , phd e: cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: yeah . so , i mean , to do it after the mel conversion uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . there 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . uh . i sort of think you should , but i do n't know . phd a: what about norm normalizing also ? professor b: right . uh . well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , probably . some kind would be good . you know ? i would think . phd d: well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the uh , the frame . professor b: if you do or do n't normalize ? phd d: if yo if you do n't normalize and if if you do n't normalize . professor b: right . yes , so i mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . but i i w w my thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . and then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , `` ok , this much effect `` i mean , you do n't want to change six things and then see what happens . you want to change them one at a time . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . and then saying , oh uh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and you learn a lot . so , i would think you would wan na have some baseline that says , `` ok , we do n't normalize , this is what we get `` , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . but but the other question is so i think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . i agree . phd e: so this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: no , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: para professor b: we 're not talking about computation time here . phd e: s professor b: we 're ta i think we 're pretty far out . phd e: yeah . professor b: so it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . it 's depending on the same data as the other . phd e: same data . professor b: so it 's in parallel . phd e: ok . professor b: uh - huh . grad c: so with this , uh , new stream would you train up a vad on both both features , somehow ? phd d: no , i guess the vad has its own set of features . grad c: ok . that 's phd d: i mean , which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . phd a: and there is also the idea of using traps , maybe , for the vad , which , um phd d: yeah , that 's also phd a: well , pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at ibm , that it 's a good idea . so . grad c: would would that fit on the handset , or ? oh ! phd a: i have no idea . grad c: ok . phd d: well , it has t i mean the th phd a: it would have to fit but yeah . phd d: yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff . professor b: well , there 's the delays and the storage , grad c: ok . professor b: yeah . but i do n't think the storage is so big for that . grad c: right . phd d: yeah . professor b: i think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . um . and so i guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based traps , and and how big are they ? so that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: oh , right . professor b: maybe they can be little ones . grad c: yeah . cuz sh right . professor b: mini - traps . grad c: cuz she also does the , uh the correlation - based , uh , traps , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: right . and maybe for vad they would be ok . yeah . yeah . grad c: yeah . professor b: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: or a simple neural net , right ? i mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple uh , uh uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . it certainly does n't take much space . grad c: mm - hmm . right . professor b: so , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? do you need to have an added layer or something ? in which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . so . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh , uh so what 's next ? maybe s s remind us . phd e: so the meeting with hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gon na freeze in this system ? is that ? or was there ? were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: what to freeze and then what to do after we froze . phd e: mmm . professor b: yeah . and like i was saying , i think the you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh i mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . and then , uh , improving the vad . uh . so . phd d: so , i 'll , um i 'll actually after the meeting i 'll add the second stream to the vad and maybe i 'll start with the feature net in that case . it 's like , you 're looking at the vad , right ? phd a: uh , yeah . i i 've a new feature net ready also . phd d: i 'll for the vad ? phd a: no , uh . well p two network , one vad and one feature net . phd d: oh , you already have it ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: ok , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: yeah . phd d: ok . phd a: um . but , yeah , i think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . grad c: feature net . phd e: what about the , um uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , wall street journal part ? professor b: right . right . um . have you ever ? very good question . have you ever worked with the mississippi state h uh , software ? phd a: sorry . phd e: no . not yet . professor b: oh . well you you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary . phd e: ok . mm - hmm . so what how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? uh , i remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gon na give the system out or phd d: yeah . yeah . phd e: oh , so they 're gon na just deliver a system basically . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: do we already have it ? phd d: yeah , th i i guess it 's almost ready . phd e: uh - huh . phd d: so that 's what so they have released their , uh , document , describing the system . professor b: maybe you could , uh , point it at chuck , phd e: i see . professor b: because , i mean phd d: sure . phd e: so we 'll have to grab this over cvs or something ? phd d: it - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . phd e: is that how they do it ? ok . professor b: cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: ok . mm - hmm . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , uh , tweak joe about or whatever , phd e: sure . professor b: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff . phd e: ok . professor b: s phd d: so i 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . so i phd e: and it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: uh , i i think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . so they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? or ? phd d: uh , w i guess there is , uh , time during which people are gon na make suggestions . phd e: oh , but everybody 's gon na have to use the same values . phd d: after that . phd e: oh ! interesting . phd d: yeah , i guess . phd e: ok . phd d: so these sugges these this , uh , period during which people are gon na make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: yeah , so i th th certainly the thing that i would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . phd e: using our features . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , in which case , um , h hari or hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd e: and we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: yes . in this case , that 's right . phd e: yeah . professor b: that 's right . um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing uh . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh . but , um . yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like november fifteenth is right around the corner . and , um , if they have n't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gon na be for this , uh , when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding . i mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . it it it seems pretty tight to me . phd e: so wha what 's the significance of november fifteenth ? professor b: that 's when the evaluation is . phd e: ok . professor b: yeah . so , yeah , so after but , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . it would n't , you know , entirely surprise me . but , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , i 'm i 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . that would be , uh put us in an awkward position . but anyway . phd e: ok . professor b: great . yeah , i think that 'll be helpful . there 's there 's not anybody ogi currently who 's who 's , uh , working with this and and phd e: is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: i i think it 's it 's , um it depends how badly you do . i mean , i think that it it is uh . phd d: b phd e: this is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: yeah . well , i mean , it 's it 's conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if i 'm wrong , but my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . that you have n't come across you have n't invented features which are actually gon na do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . and , um , but it 's not the main emphasis . phd e: mmm . professor b: i mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: mmm . professor b: so it 's it 's a double check . so they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight . phd e: seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . y you passed the threshold or you did n't pass the threshold , and they should n't even care about what the score is . professor b: yeah . but , i mean , we 'll we 'll we 'll see what they come up with . uh , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: yeah . professor b: right ? it 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . so you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . phd d: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , it would n't surprise me if they did something like that with this . so again , if you 're if you get if it does n't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much . phd e: oh . professor b: but if it if you do n't if it does n't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then phd e: mm - hmm . so is this , uh ? uh , guenter was putting a bunch of wall street journal data on our disks . professor b: that 's it . phd e: so that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: yeah . phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so we have the data , just not the recognizer . ok . phd e: so this test may take quite a while to run , then . may - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on . professor b: uh , well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: i i guess , i 'm not sure . professor b: no , i mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the h m ms and and data for testing it . phd e: i just professor b: so i would n't so it it 's phd e: ok . so there 's professor b: so , training the recognizer , but , um um . but i think it 's trained on clean and is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: the wall street ? professor b: yeah . phd a: apparently , no . it 's training on a range between ten and twenty db , i think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: that 's what i got on professor b: ok . phd d: it 's , uh it 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: yeah , professor b: i see . phd a: and so the noise is there is a range of different noises also um which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . and there are noises that are different from the noises used on ti - digits . professor b: yeah . yeah . i mean , i would n't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . they probably put training uh , almost certain they put training data there too . maybe not . so . that 's that . anybody have anything else ? phd e: uh , one one last question on that . when did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: um , i guess i guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: yeah , it 's already there . yeah . phd e: ok , phd d: but they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , i think . phd e: good . phd d: so i guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . phd e: ok . professor b: oh , well that 's pretty soon . phd d: yeah , that 's just one more . grad c: is this their , um , svm recognizer ? phd d: no , it 's just a straightforward hmm . professor b: you know , their their they have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the svm is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . grad c: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor b: for the most part it 's it 's gaussian mixtures . grad c: oh , ok . oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: it 's just a hmm , gaussian mixture model . grad c: gaussian mixture hmm . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: yeah , the svm thing was an hmm also . it was just a it it it was like a hybrid , like grad c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: so , just so that i understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? is that the idea ? phd d: i i i think yeah , i i guess something like that . it 's like as painless as possible , phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: is what do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then just , phd e: i see . hmm . somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju yeah , i th i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: hmm . yeah , um . in fact , i mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable you know joe , right ? yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . so that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: ok . phd d: so sh shall we , like , add chuck also to the mailing lists ? it may be better , i mean , in that case if he 's going to professor b: yeah . phd d: because there 's a mailing list for this . professor b: is that ok ? phd e: yeah , that 'd be great . phd d: yeah , i guess maybe hari or hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to joe . or maybe if you phd e: i i could send him an email . phd d: well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: i i know him really well . phd d: yeah , so that 's just fine . phd e: i i was just talking with him on email the other day actually . phd d: so professor b: uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see . phd d: so phd e: about other things , but . professor b: do you have hari 's , uh ? phd e: i have hari 's professor b: yeah , so maybe just cc hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know , phd e: ok . would it be better if i asked hari to ask joe ? professor b: uh . why do n't you just ask joe but cc hari , and then in the note say , `` hari , hopefully this is ok with you `` . phd e: ok . professor b: and then if joe feels like he needs a confirmation , hari can answer it . phd e: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: that way you can get started asking { comment } joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and yeah . phd d: and there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , uh , between these people among these people . so just you can see all this mails in the isip web site phd e: ok . phd d: mississippi web site . phd e: ok . is that a password controlled ? phd d: yeah , it 's password protected . phd e: ok . phd d: so , like like , it 's , like professor b: have you thought about how long would be uh , most useful for you to go up to ogi ? phd a: i do n't know , uh . we can for september , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . and then at some point it maybe be better to work together again . professor b: oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: i professor b: i mean , it 's to you . phd a: maybe , yeah . professor b: i ju you guys are well , y anyway , you do n't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . i 'll phd a: but , uh huh . mm - hmm . professor b: support it either way , so . phd a: mm - hmm right . professor b: ok . uh . got anything to tell us ? grad c: um . well , i 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . just , um , i guess , let me put it in context . ok , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um to classify . and , uh , i was looking at some of the work that , uh , sangita was doing on these traps things . so she has , um she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from from timit , right ? the most common phonemes . and each one of them has has a a nice pattern over time , a one one second window . and it has has these patterns . um , so she has , um a trap for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . and , um , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . and then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how how closely related they are . and you start , um by merging the patterns that are most closely related . phd e: and you create a tree . grad c: and y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um . phd e: and then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: right , usually it 's when , um when the sol similarity measures , um , do n't go down as much . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and so , uh so you stop at that point . and what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: and , uh , one for silence and and another one for schwa schwa sounds . um , and , um , i was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these traps and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . um , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . um , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and i 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , ok , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable stable point . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um , and i 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um intermediate categories that , uh , um , i 'll later classify . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: are you looking at these in narrow bands ? grad c: um , right . f um , i 'm professor b: cuz that 's what you 're gon na be using , right ? grad c: yeah , yeah . i i have n't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the the representation of the data that i was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , um , over different lengths of time . so yeah . professor b: yeah , i mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that i wonder about with this . i mean , so one is is , again , looking at the same representation , grad c: ok . professor b: i mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: that that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . um , and then the other thing , uh , is that i wonder about with it , and and do n't take this in the wrong way , like i i know what i 'm doing or anything , grad c: right . professor b: but , i mean . um , just wondering really . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better . grad c: hmm . professor b: um , and i do n't know if that i mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this is n't right , but it 'd be something i 'd be concerned about . because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from from , uh from your your quals , john ohala saying that , uh , `` buh `` { comment } and `` puh `` { comment } differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . i mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . and yet , i would gue i would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , { comment } screwing up on this distinction . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . and the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they do n't work as well as we 'd like . and since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , `` how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: boy , i bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . so , what are we bringing to the party ? i mean , in fact what we wan na do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . grad c: mmm . professor b: so that 's th that 's the hard thing . i mean , i understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wan na have categories that , uh that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . and it 's something that you really think you can pick up . but i think it 's also essential that you wan na look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions . grad c: mm - hmm . hmm . professor b: so , i mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . y y this is more like , you know , how does lda differ from pca ? i mean , they 're the same sort of thing . they 're both orthogonalizing . grad c: right . professor b: but , you know and and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . you 're actually trying to find the the the the categories themselves . uh , so a little more like brain surgery , i think on yourself . uh . so , uh grad c: yeah . professor b: um , anyway . that 's my thought . grad c: ok . professor b: you 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . i mean , well w actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: yeah . professor b: and you 've been thinking about it more now , phd d: yeah . professor b: these categories . phd e: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i guess i do n't i do n't um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which i think is right , with the way i 've been looking at it . that it 's it 's it 's all not very clear to me . but it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . you know , however we do that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and and so i guess what i do n't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: right . phd e: but that 's sort of what you want to avoid . and so that feels i do n't know how to get out of this . professor b: well , here 's a here 's a , uh , uh here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , um , what do you really i mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . right ? because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it does n't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's got ta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: right . professor b: right ? phd e: so the question is , how far down ? professor b: and phd e: we could stop at words , but we do n't , right ? we go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: right , but i me i i think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . you know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , uh , um , metric of of goodness , uh , i if our phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , for for for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , i mean , that 's really i mean , d w in many applications you wan na go further . you wan na go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . phd e: yeah . but words would be a nice professor b: but , words are n't bad , yeah . and and phd e: yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you ca n't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? so you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . but the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? so when you look at conversational speech , for example , you do n't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . professor b: yeah . but but but we 're not trying for models of words here . see , so her here 's maybe where if the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then maybe it does n't matter that we ca n't have enough phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , what you wan na do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . phd e: right . right . professor b: and and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories i mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: right . professor b: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate . phd e: yeah . professor b: in some way i mean , we derive that all the time . in some ways it 's really not { comment } a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: uh - huh . professor b: uh , and uh yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of do n't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so that 's , uh , wh what i called a useless comments because i 'm not really telling you how to do it . but i mean , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: no , but i think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories . professor b: right . phd e: and i think this the important categories are the words , and not the phones . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: maybe . and so right . if you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters uh professor b: now , that being said , i think that that if you have something that is , um i once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: if you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like timit , then , you know , i i you the phones are gon na be right , actually , for the most part . phd e: yeah . yeah , professor b: so so , uh , it does n't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , uh , the phones are uh , you know , it 's gon na be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , um and it wo n't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: mmm . so it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it does n't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it does n't really hurt , and i 'm not sure how how to build that in . uh . professor b: yeah , i mean , i guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit i mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results i think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or or or , uh , even phones in in in in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . you know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i know one thing that happens is that you you you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . i mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones sometimes do n't get heard . and if that if that is if it uh , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . but , um , i do n't know , i w i would i would guess that you 'd grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: w i do n't know . anyway , that 's phd e: i think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: you know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . and so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: well that grad c: yeah . we 're we 're doing some sort of prediction of what phd e: yeah , exactly . professor b: oh , sure , that 's really big . grad c: yeah . professor b: uh , but i mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really is n't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , uh uh , than the machines are . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , i mean , that 's i right . we ca n't we ca n't get it at all without any language models . language models are there and important but but , uh uh . if we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there . so should we do some digits ? phd e: yeah . professor b: since we 're here ? phd e: go ahead , morgan . professor b: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: that 's all folks .

the professor informed the team that the evaluation was on november 13. he encouraged the team to run experiments to learn which factors were the most important . the team was concerned about how the evaluation would be weighted , but they did not expect it to be significantly different . there was a chance that the evaluation would be pushed .

what did the team discuss about insertion penalties ? </s> phd e: ok . professor b: ok , so we we had a meeting with , uh with hynek , um , in in which , uh , uh , sunil and stephane , uh summarized where they were and and , uh , talked about where we were gon na go . so that that happened sort of mid - week . uh . phd e: d did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: oh , yeah . yeah . it 's it 's it 's it was updated yesterday , phd e: cool . phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: you probably received the mail . phd e: oh , right , i saw i saw the note . phd a: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: what was the update ? phd a: what was the update ? so there is th then the all the new features that go in . professor b: yeah . phd a: the , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . these are the phd e: is the , um the cvs mechanism working well ? phd a: yeah . phd e: are are people , uh , up at ogi grabbing code uh , via that ? phd d: uh , i do n't think i do n't think phd e: or ? phd a: i do n't know if they use it , but . phd d: yeah , i i do n't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . phd e: uh - huh . mmm . professor b: i think it more likely that what it means is that when sunil is up there he will grab it . phd d: yeah . yeah . so right now nobody 's working on aurora there . phd e: yeah . professor b: they 're yeah . they 're working on a different task . phd e: i see . i see . phd d: yeah . phd e: ok . professor b: but what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , uh , pratibha will come back from from , uh , the east coast . uh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and and i guess actually , uh , after eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . so , actually everybody who 's working on it { comment } will be up there for at least a little while . so they 'll remotely access it from there . phd e: so has has anybody tried remotely accessing the cvs using , uh , uh , ssh ? professor b: yeah . phd a: um , i do n't know if hari did that or you d phd d: i { comment } can actually do it today . i mean , i can just log into phd e: have you tried it yet ? phd d: no , i did n't . so i i 'll try it today . phd e: ok . professor b: good idea . phd a: actually i i tried wh while when i installed the repository , i tried from belgium . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: i logged in there and i tried to import phd e: yeah ? it worked good ? phd a: yeah , it works . phd e: oh , good ! phd a: but it 's so , right now it 's the mechanism with ssh . phd d: oh . phd e: great ! phd a: i do n't s i did n't set up you can also set up a cvs server on a new port . it 's like well uh , a main server , or d you can do a cvs server . phd e: yeah . right . then that 's using the cvs password mechanism and all that , phd a: but . yeah , right . phd e: right ? phd a: but i did n't do that because i was not sure about security problems . i i would have to phd e: so w when you came in from belgian { comment } belgium , using ssh , uh , was it asking you for your own password into icsi ? so if yo you can only do that if you have an account at icsi ? phd a: right . yeah . phd e: ok . phd a: yeah . phd e: cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous cvs right ? phd a: yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a cvs server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: so that oh , ok . phd a: you you can set up priorities . phd e: so the anonymous mechanism phd a: you can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . phd e: ok . because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous cvs and i 'm just wondering uh , i mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd e: uh . professor b: yeah , for this stuff i do n't think we 're quite up to that . i mean , we 're still so much in development . phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , professor b: we want to have just the insiders . phd e: yeah , yeah . oh , i was n't suggesting for this . i 'm thinking of the meeting recorder { comment } stuff professor b: yeah . phd e: but . yeah . ok . cool . professor b: yeah . so , uh phd e: what 's new ? professor b: well , i mean , i think maybe the thing to me might be i me i 'm sure you 've just been working on on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? and so phd a: mmm , since the meeting , well , i i 've been i 've been train training a new vad and a new feature net . professor b: that was that was tuesday . ok . phd a: so they should be ready . um . professor b: but i guess maybe the thing since you were n't yo you guys were n't at that that meeting , might be just just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the the conclusions of the meeting . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: oh , great . professor b: so . phd e: you 're talking about the meeting with hynek ? professor b: yeah . cuz that was sort of , uh we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , uh , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: uh - huh . professor b: since he 's going out of town like now , and i 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and what do we freeze ? and , you know , what do we ? so , um . i mean , this software that these guys created was certainly a a key part . so then there 's something central and there are n't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . uh , um , and , um , phd e: yeah . that 's that 's nice . professor b: and then within that , i guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gon na be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . so keep a certain set of things constant . so , um . uh , maybe describe roughly what what we are keeping constant for now , or ? phd a: yeah . well . so we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . um . phd e: are you gon na use which of the two techniques ? phd a: so finally it 's it 's , um , wiener filtering on fft bins . and it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . and after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty fft bins . mmm . and , uh phd e: so this is on the uh , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: yeah , yeah . phd e: this is phd a: it was professor b: this this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: yeah . uh , it 's on the transfer function . so professor b: oh , it 's on the transfer function for the wiener filter . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so basically we tried different configuration within this idea . we tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . um . well , finally we end up with this configuration that works , uh , quite well . so we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: so professor b: actually , let me int eh , dave is n't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . this module , in principle , i i mean , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . i mean , because you you re - synthesize speech , right ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um . uh , well you do n't i guess you do n't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: we we do not fo professor b: uh , but you could . phd a: well well , we do , but we do n't do n't re - synthesize . in in the program we do n't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . we just use the clean fft bins . professor b: but you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . phd a: this is an option that then you can yeah . professor b: yeah , i gu i guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . but for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you do n't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . and if you do n't include that in the model , it does n't work very well . so in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . and , uh , generate new files or whatever , and and , uh , uh and then do the reverberation part . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd d: mmm . professor b: anyway . phd e: so dave has n't tried that yet ? professor b: no , no . he 's i mean , e phd e: i guess he 's busy with professor b: yeah , prelims , right . grad c: pre - prelim hell . professor b: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: so . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , but but , you know , that 'll uh , it 's clear that we , uh we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we ca n't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . and that 's i mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , uh and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . and that 's hard enough . i mean , i do n't think we really i mean , we 're trying to deal with that . in a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this aurora task . and we have , uh , the , uh , uh , lda stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . and we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . uh , even that 's hard enough . and and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i there 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . but now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . and , um , so dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . so we have to start since any almost any real situation is gon na have uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , um so there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: yeah , well , the , um , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: so that 's again , that that 's the wiener filtering , followed by , uh uh , that 's done at the fft level . then phd a: yeah , th then the mel filter bank , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: then the log operation , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: the the the filtering is done in the frequency domain ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . and then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: then the lda filter , professor b: lda filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: and then uh downsample , phd a: dct , professor b: dct , phd a: then , um , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also . professor b: right , and then in parallel with an a neural net . and then following neural net , some probably some orthogonalization . phd a: yeah . professor b: uh um . phd a: and finally frame dropping , which um , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . and the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . professor b: mm - hmm . so that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so the things that we , um , uh , i guess we sort of uh , there 's there 's some , uh , neat ideas for v a so , i mean , in i think there 's sort of like there 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . there 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . and there 's gon na be a host of those . but structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , uh , are are gon na need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a a significantly better vad , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we have n't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , opening up the second front . uh . phd e: the other half of the channel ? professor b: yeah , yeah , i mean , cuz we we have we have , uh , uh , half the the , uh , data rate that they allow . phd e: that what you mean ? professor b: and , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . it 's , you know , cheap , easy . uh . there 's a question about exactly how we do it . we probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so . um , { comment } i think tony robinson used to do i was saying this before . i think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . he used them as alternate features . put them together . phd e: hmm . professor b: uh . phd e: so if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gon na freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: mm - hmm . it , uh , phd e: in terms of ranking ? phd a: ri - right now it 's second . phd d: second . phd a: um . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: although you you know , you have n't tested it actually on the german and danish , have you ? phd a: no , we did n't . no , um . professor b: yeah . phd e: so on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: yeah . would it i mean but when you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh that the best system before got on , uh also without german and danish ? phd a: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd d: and th the ranking actually did n't change after the german and danish . so , yeah . professor b: well ranking did n't before , but i 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the german and danish , phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: so . phd e: where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were i mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . and so , i guess by that we were third , but i mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: uh - huh . i see . ok . professor b: uh , so institutionally we were we were second , with , uh , the third third system . phd e: we 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: see uh , no i think it 's also institutional , is n't it ? phd e: still institutionally second ? professor b: right ? i mean , i think both of their systems probably phd a: uh , we are between their two systems . so professor b: oh , are we ? phd a: i it is a triumph . phd d: yeah . professor b: is it ? phd d: their their first system is fifty - four point something . and , uh , we are fifty - three point something . phd a: but everything is within the range of one one percent . phd d: and their second system is also fifty - three point something . yeah , one percent . professor b: yeah , so so basically they 're all they 're all pretty close . phd e: oh , wow ! phd a: so . phd e: that 's very close . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: and and , um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . uh , i mean , one could argue about the lda and so forth but i i think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . but what what phd e: so how did they fill up this all these these bits ? i mean , if we 're u professor b: um , why are we using half ? well , so you could you c phd e: yeah . or how are they using more than half , i guess maybe is what i professor b: yeah , so i i think uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if i 'm wrong , but i i think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . uh , they have some cepstral modification , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? in our case we have a couple things . we have the on - line normalization and then we have the lda rasta . and they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . but in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . but there 's one difference . the lda rasta , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . and they 're not doing that . phd e: so th so professor b: so that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . grad c: get down . phd e: i see . i see . professor b: so phd e: so what if you did n't so do you explicitly downsample then ? do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd e: and what if we did n't do that ? would we get worse performance ? phd a: um yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: i think it does n't affect it , does it ? phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so i think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor b: and , uh , so i you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . so that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though i 'm saying i think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . and you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , `` oh , yeah , i understand `` , is is very helpful . phd e: so you would you 're you 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: well , that 's a question . i mean , we were talking about that . it looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh , phd e: cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: yeah . so , i mean , to do it after the mel conversion uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . there 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . uh . i sort of think you should , but i do n't know . phd a: what about norm normalizing also ? professor b: right . uh . well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , probably . some kind would be good . you know ? i would think . phd d: well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the uh , the frame . professor b: if you do or do n't normalize ? phd d: if yo if you do n't normalize and if if you do n't normalize . professor b: right . yes , so i mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . but i i w w my thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . and then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , `` ok , this much effect `` i mean , you do n't want to change six things and then see what happens . you want to change them one at a time . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . and then saying , oh uh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and you learn a lot . so , i would think you would wan na have some baseline that says , `` ok , we do n't normalize , this is what we get `` , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . but but the other question is so i think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . i agree . phd e: so this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: no , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: para professor b: we 're not talking about computation time here . phd e: s professor b: we 're ta i think we 're pretty far out . phd e: yeah . professor b: so it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . it 's depending on the same data as the other . phd e: same data . professor b: so it 's in parallel . phd e: ok . professor b: uh - huh . grad c: so with this , uh , new stream would you train up a vad on both both features , somehow ? phd d: no , i guess the vad has its own set of features . grad c: ok . that 's phd d: i mean , which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . phd a: and there is also the idea of using traps , maybe , for the vad , which , um phd d: yeah , that 's also phd a: well , pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at ibm , that it 's a good idea . so . grad c: would would that fit on the handset , or ? oh ! phd a: i have no idea . grad c: ok . phd d: well , it has t i mean the th phd a: it would have to fit but yeah . phd d: yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff . professor b: well , there 's the delays and the storage , grad c: ok . professor b: yeah . but i do n't think the storage is so big for that . grad c: right . phd d: yeah . professor b: i think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . um . and so i guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based traps , and and how big are they ? so that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: oh , right . professor b: maybe they can be little ones . grad c: yeah . cuz sh right . professor b: mini - traps . grad c: cuz she also does the , uh the correlation - based , uh , traps , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: right . and maybe for vad they would be ok . yeah . yeah . grad c: yeah . professor b: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: or a simple neural net , right ? i mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple uh , uh uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . it certainly does n't take much space . grad c: mm - hmm . right . professor b: so , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? do you need to have an added layer or something ? in which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . so . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh , uh so what 's next ? maybe s s remind us . phd e: so the meeting with hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gon na freeze in this system ? is that ? or was there ? were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: what to freeze and then what to do after we froze . phd e: mmm . professor b: yeah . and like i was saying , i think the you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh i mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . and then , uh , improving the vad . uh . so . phd d: so , i 'll , um i 'll actually after the meeting i 'll add the second stream to the vad and maybe i 'll start with the feature net in that case . it 's like , you 're looking at the vad , right ? phd a: uh , yeah . i i 've a new feature net ready also . phd d: i 'll for the vad ? phd a: no , uh . well p two network , one vad and one feature net . phd d: oh , you already have it ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: ok , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: yeah . phd d: ok . phd a: um . but , yeah , i think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . grad c: feature net . phd e: what about the , um uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , wall street journal part ? professor b: right . right . um . have you ever ? very good question . have you ever worked with the mississippi state h uh , software ? phd a: sorry . phd e: no . not yet . professor b: oh . well you you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary . phd e: ok . mm - hmm . so what how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? uh , i remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gon na give the system out or phd d: yeah . yeah . phd e: oh , so they 're gon na just deliver a system basically . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: do we already have it ? phd d: yeah , th i i guess it 's almost ready . phd e: uh - huh . phd d: so that 's what so they have released their , uh , document , describing the system . professor b: maybe you could , uh , point it at chuck , phd e: i see . professor b: because , i mean phd d: sure . phd e: so we 'll have to grab this over cvs or something ? phd d: it - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . phd e: is that how they do it ? ok . professor b: cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: ok . mm - hmm . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , uh , tweak joe about or whatever , phd e: sure . professor b: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff . phd e: ok . professor b: s phd d: so i 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . so i phd e: and it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: uh , i i think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . so they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? or ? phd d: uh , w i guess there is , uh , time during which people are gon na make suggestions . phd e: oh , but everybody 's gon na have to use the same values . phd d: after that . phd e: oh ! interesting . phd d: yeah , i guess . phd e: ok . phd d: so these sugges these this , uh , period during which people are gon na make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: yeah , so i th th certainly the thing that i would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . phd e: using our features . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , in which case , um , h hari or hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd e: and we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: yes . in this case , that 's right . phd e: yeah . professor b: that 's right . um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing uh . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh . but , um . yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like november fifteenth is right around the corner . and , um , if they have n't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gon na be for this , uh , when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding . i mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . it it it seems pretty tight to me . phd e: so wha what 's the significance of november fifteenth ? professor b: that 's when the evaluation is . phd e: ok . professor b: yeah . so , yeah , so after but , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . it would n't , you know , entirely surprise me . but , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , i 'm i 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . that would be , uh put us in an awkward position . but anyway . phd e: ok . professor b: great . yeah , i think that 'll be helpful . there 's there 's not anybody ogi currently who 's who 's , uh , working with this and and phd e: is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: i i think it 's it 's , um it depends how badly you do . i mean , i think that it it is uh . phd d: b phd e: this is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: yeah . well , i mean , it 's it 's conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if i 'm wrong , but my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . that you have n't come across you have n't invented features which are actually gon na do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . and , um , but it 's not the main emphasis . phd e: mmm . professor b: i mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: mmm . professor b: so it 's it 's a double check . so they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight . phd e: seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . y you passed the threshold or you did n't pass the threshold , and they should n't even care about what the score is . professor b: yeah . but , i mean , we 'll we 'll we 'll see what they come up with . uh , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: yeah . professor b: right ? it 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . so you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . phd d: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , it would n't surprise me if they did something like that with this . so again , if you 're if you get if it does n't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much . phd e: oh . professor b: but if it if you do n't if it does n't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then phd e: mm - hmm . so is this , uh ? uh , guenter was putting a bunch of wall street journal data on our disks . professor b: that 's it . phd e: so that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: yeah . phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so we have the data , just not the recognizer . ok . phd e: so this test may take quite a while to run , then . may - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on . professor b: uh , well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: i i guess , i 'm not sure . professor b: no , i mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the h m ms and and data for testing it . phd e: i just professor b: so i would n't so it it 's phd e: ok . so there 's professor b: so , training the recognizer , but , um um . but i think it 's trained on clean and is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: the wall street ? professor b: yeah . phd a: apparently , no . it 's training on a range between ten and twenty db , i think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: that 's what i got on professor b: ok . phd d: it 's , uh it 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: yeah , professor b: i see . phd a: and so the noise is there is a range of different noises also um which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . and there are noises that are different from the noises used on ti - digits . professor b: yeah . yeah . i mean , i would n't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . they probably put training uh , almost certain they put training data there too . maybe not . so . that 's that . anybody have anything else ? phd e: uh , one one last question on that . when did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: um , i guess i guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: yeah , it 's already there . yeah . phd e: ok , phd d: but they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , i think . phd e: good . phd d: so i guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . phd e: ok . professor b: oh , well that 's pretty soon . phd d: yeah , that 's just one more . grad c: is this their , um , svm recognizer ? phd d: no , it 's just a straightforward hmm . professor b: you know , their their they have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the svm is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . grad c: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor b: for the most part it 's it 's gaussian mixtures . grad c: oh , ok . oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: it 's just a hmm , gaussian mixture model . grad c: gaussian mixture hmm . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: yeah , the svm thing was an hmm also . it was just a it it it was like a hybrid , like grad c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: so , just so that i understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? is that the idea ? phd d: i i i think yeah , i i guess something like that . it 's like as painless as possible , phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: is what do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then just , phd e: i see . hmm . somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju yeah , i th i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: hmm . yeah , um . in fact , i mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable you know joe , right ? yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . so that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: ok . phd d: so sh shall we , like , add chuck also to the mailing lists ? it may be better , i mean , in that case if he 's going to professor b: yeah . phd d: because there 's a mailing list for this . professor b: is that ok ? phd e: yeah , that 'd be great . phd d: yeah , i guess maybe hari or hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to joe . or maybe if you phd e: i i could send him an email . phd d: well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: i i know him really well . phd d: yeah , so that 's just fine . phd e: i i was just talking with him on email the other day actually . phd d: so professor b: uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see . phd d: so phd e: about other things , but . professor b: do you have hari 's , uh ? phd e: i have hari 's professor b: yeah , so maybe just cc hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know , phd e: ok . would it be better if i asked hari to ask joe ? professor b: uh . why do n't you just ask joe but cc hari , and then in the note say , `` hari , hopefully this is ok with you `` . phd e: ok . professor b: and then if joe feels like he needs a confirmation , hari can answer it . phd e: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: that way you can get started asking { comment } joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and yeah . phd d: and there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , uh , between these people among these people . so just you can see all this mails in the isip web site phd e: ok . phd d: mississippi web site . phd e: ok . is that a password controlled ? phd d: yeah , it 's password protected . phd e: ok . phd d: so , like like , it 's , like professor b: have you thought about how long would be uh , most useful for you to go up to ogi ? phd a: i do n't know , uh . we can for september , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . and then at some point it maybe be better to work together again . professor b: oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: i professor b: i mean , it 's to you . phd a: maybe , yeah . professor b: i ju you guys are well , y anyway , you do n't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . i 'll phd a: but , uh huh . mm - hmm . professor b: support it either way , so . phd a: mm - hmm right . professor b: ok . uh . got anything to tell us ? grad c: um . well , i 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . just , um , i guess , let me put it in context . ok , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um to classify . and , uh , i was looking at some of the work that , uh , sangita was doing on these traps things . so she has , um she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from from timit , right ? the most common phonemes . and each one of them has has a a nice pattern over time , a one one second window . and it has has these patterns . um , so she has , um a trap for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . and , um , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . and then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how how closely related they are . and you start , um by merging the patterns that are most closely related . phd e: and you create a tree . grad c: and y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um . phd e: and then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: right , usually it 's when , um when the sol similarity measures , um , do n't go down as much . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and so , uh so you stop at that point . and what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: and , uh , one for silence and and another one for schwa schwa sounds . um , and , um , i was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these traps and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . um , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . um , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and i 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , ok , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable stable point . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um , and i 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um intermediate categories that , uh , um , i 'll later classify . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: are you looking at these in narrow bands ? grad c: um , right . f um , i 'm professor b: cuz that 's what you 're gon na be using , right ? grad c: yeah , yeah . i i have n't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the the representation of the data that i was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , um , over different lengths of time . so yeah . professor b: yeah , i mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that i wonder about with this . i mean , so one is is , again , looking at the same representation , grad c: ok . professor b: i mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: that that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . um , and then the other thing , uh , is that i wonder about with it , and and do n't take this in the wrong way , like i i know what i 'm doing or anything , grad c: right . professor b: but , i mean . um , just wondering really . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better . grad c: hmm . professor b: um , and i do n't know if that i mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this is n't right , but it 'd be something i 'd be concerned about . because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from from , uh from your your quals , john ohala saying that , uh , `` buh `` { comment } and `` puh `` { comment } differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . i mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . and yet , i would gue i would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , { comment } screwing up on this distinction . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . and the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they do n't work as well as we 'd like . and since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , `` how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: boy , i bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . so , what are we bringing to the party ? i mean , in fact what we wan na do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . grad c: mmm . professor b: so that 's th that 's the hard thing . i mean , i understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wan na have categories that , uh that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . and it 's something that you really think you can pick up . but i think it 's also essential that you wan na look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions . grad c: mm - hmm . hmm . professor b: so , i mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . y y this is more like , you know , how does lda differ from pca ? i mean , they 're the same sort of thing . they 're both orthogonalizing . grad c: right . professor b: but , you know and and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . you 're actually trying to find the the the the categories themselves . uh , so a little more like brain surgery , i think on yourself . uh . so , uh grad c: yeah . professor b: um , anyway . that 's my thought . grad c: ok . professor b: you 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . i mean , well w actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: yeah . professor b: and you 've been thinking about it more now , phd d: yeah . professor b: these categories . phd e: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i guess i do n't i do n't um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which i think is right , with the way i 've been looking at it . that it 's it 's it 's all not very clear to me . but it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . you know , however we do that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and and so i guess what i do n't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: right . phd e: but that 's sort of what you want to avoid . and so that feels i do n't know how to get out of this . professor b: well , here 's a here 's a , uh , uh here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , um , what do you really i mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . right ? because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it does n't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's got ta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: right . professor b: right ? phd e: so the question is , how far down ? professor b: and phd e: we could stop at words , but we do n't , right ? we go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: right , but i me i i think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . you know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , uh , um , metric of of goodness , uh , i if our phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , for for for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , i mean , that 's really i mean , d w in many applications you wan na go further . you wan na go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . phd e: yeah . but words would be a nice professor b: but , words are n't bad , yeah . and and phd e: yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you ca n't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? so you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . but the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? so when you look at conversational speech , for example , you do n't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . professor b: yeah . but but but we 're not trying for models of words here . see , so her here 's maybe where if the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then maybe it does n't matter that we ca n't have enough phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , what you wan na do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . phd e: right . right . professor b: and and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories i mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: right . professor b: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate . phd e: yeah . professor b: in some way i mean , we derive that all the time . in some ways it 's really not { comment } a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: uh - huh . professor b: uh , and uh yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of do n't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so that 's , uh , wh what i called a useless comments because i 'm not really telling you how to do it . but i mean , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: no , but i think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories . professor b: right . phd e: and i think this the important categories are the words , and not the phones . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: maybe . and so right . if you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters uh professor b: now , that being said , i think that that if you have something that is , um i once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: if you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like timit , then , you know , i i you the phones are gon na be right , actually , for the most part . phd e: yeah . yeah , professor b: so so , uh , it does n't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , uh , the phones are uh , you know , it 's gon na be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , um and it wo n't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: mmm . so it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it does n't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it does n't really hurt , and i 'm not sure how how to build that in . uh . professor b: yeah , i mean , i guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit i mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results i think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or or or , uh , even phones in in in in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . you know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i know one thing that happens is that you you you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . i mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones sometimes do n't get heard . and if that if that is if it uh , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . but , um , i do n't know , i w i would i would guess that you 'd grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: w i do n't know . anyway , that 's phd e: i think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: you know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . and so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: well that grad c: yeah . we 're we 're doing some sort of prediction of what phd e: yeah , exactly . professor b: oh , sure , that 's really big . grad c: yeah . professor b: uh , but i mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really is n't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , uh uh , than the machines are . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , i mean , that 's i right . we ca n't we ca n't get it at all without any language models . language models are there and important but but , uh uh . if we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there . so should we do some digits ? phd e: yeah . professor b: since we 're here ? phd e: go ahead , morgan . professor b: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: that 's all folks .

the aurora staff was tinkering around with various parameters , like the insertion penalty . the professor expressed interest in knowing what the exact penalties were to make decision about the team 's models .

what did the team discuss about the wall street journal data ? </s> phd e: ok . professor b: ok , so we we had a meeting with , uh with hynek , um , in in which , uh , uh , sunil and stephane , uh summarized where they were and and , uh , talked about where we were gon na go . so that that happened sort of mid - week . uh . phd e: d did did you guys get your code pushed together ? phd d: oh , yeah . yeah . it 's it 's it 's it was updated yesterday , phd e: cool . phd d: right ? phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: you probably received the mail . phd e: oh , right , i saw i saw the note . phd a: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: what was the update ? phd a: what was the update ? so there is th then the all the new features that go in . professor b: yeah . phd a: the , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . these are the phd e: is the , um the cvs mechanism working well ? phd a: yeah . phd e: are are people , uh , up at ogi grabbing code uh , via that ? phd d: uh , i do n't think i do n't think phd e: or ? phd a: i do n't know if they use it , but . phd d: yeah , i i do n't think anybody up there is like working on it right now . phd e: uh - huh . mmm . professor b: i think it more likely that what it means is that when sunil is up there he will grab it . phd d: yeah . yeah . so right now nobody 's working on aurora there . phd e: yeah . professor b: they 're yeah . they 're working on a different task . phd e: i see . i see . phd d: yeah . phd e: ok . professor b: but what 'll happen is is he 'll go back up there and , uh , pratibha will come back from from , uh , the east coast . uh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and and i guess actually , uh , after eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . so , actually everybody who 's working on it { comment } will be up there for at least a little while . so they 'll remotely access it from there . phd e: so has has anybody tried remotely accessing the cvs using , uh , uh , ssh ? professor b: yeah . phd a: um , i do n't know if hari did that or you d phd d: i { comment } can actually do it today . i mean , i can just log into phd e: have you tried it yet ? phd d: no , i did n't . so i i 'll try it today . phd e: ok . professor b: good idea . phd a: actually i i tried wh while when i installed the repository , i tried from belgium . professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: i logged in there and i tried to import phd e: yeah ? it worked good ? phd a: yeah , it works . phd e: oh , good ! phd a: but it 's so , right now it 's the mechanism with ssh . phd d: oh . phd e: great ! phd a: i do n't s i did n't set up you can also set up a cvs server on a new port . it 's like well uh , a main server , or d you can do a cvs server . phd e: yeah . right . then that 's using the cvs password mechanism and all that , phd a: but . yeah , right . phd e: right ? phd a: but i did n't do that because i was not sure about security problems . i i would have to phd e: so w when you came in from belgian { comment } belgium , using ssh , uh , was it asking you for your own password into icsi ? so if yo you can only do that if you have an account at icsi ? phd a: right . yeah . phd e: ok . phd a: yeah . phd e: cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous cvs right ? phd a: yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a cvs server but then , yeah , you can access it . phd e: so that oh , ok . phd a: you you can set up priorities . phd e: so the anonymous mechanism phd a: you can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this . phd e: ok . because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous cvs and i 'm just wondering uh , i mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd e: uh . professor b: yeah , for this stuff i do n't think we 're quite up to that . i mean , we 're still so much in development . phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , professor b: we want to have just the insiders . phd e: yeah , yeah . oh , i was n't suggesting for this . i 'm thinking of the meeting recorder { comment } stuff professor b: yeah . phd e: but . yeah . ok . cool . professor b: yeah . so , uh phd e: what 's new ? professor b: well , i mean , i think maybe the thing to me might be i me i 'm sure you 've just been working on on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? and so phd a: mmm , since the meeting , well , i i 've been i 've been train training a new vad and a new feature net . professor b: that was that was tuesday . ok . phd a: so they should be ready . um . professor b: but i guess maybe the thing since you were n't yo you guys were n't at that that meeting , might be just just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the the conclusions of the meeting . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: oh , great . professor b: so . phd e: you 're talking about the meeting with hynek ? professor b: yeah . cuz that was sort of , uh we we 'd sort of been working up to that , that that , uh , he would come here this week and and we would sort of phd e: uh - huh . professor b: since he 's going out of town like now , and i 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what what will we actually focus on ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh and what do we freeze ? and , you know , what do we ? so , um . i mean , this software that these guys created was certainly a a key part . so then there 's something central and there are n't at least a bunch of different versions going off in in ways that differ trivially . uh , um , and , um , phd e: yeah . that 's that 's nice . professor b: and then within that , i guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gon na be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . so keep a certain set of things constant . so , um . uh , maybe describe roughly what what we are keeping constant for now , or ? phd a: yeah . well . so we 've been working like six weeks on on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . um . phd e: are you gon na use which of the two techniques ? phd a: so finally it 's it 's , um , wiener filtering on fft bins . and it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . and after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty fft bins . mmm . and , uh phd e: so this is on the uh , before any mel scaling has been done ? phd a: yeah , yeah . phd e: this is phd a: it was professor b: this this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ? phd a: yeah . uh , it 's on the transfer function . so professor b: oh , it 's on the transfer function for the wiener filter . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd a: yeah , so basically we tried different configuration within this idea . we tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . um . well , finally we end up with this configuration that works , uh , quite well . so we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of the whole system . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: so professor b: actually , let me int eh , dave is n't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . this module , in principle , i i mean , you would know whether it 's true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . i mean , because you you re - synthesize speech , right ? phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um . uh , well you do n't i guess you do n't re - synthesize speech , but you could phd a: we we do not fo professor b: uh , but you could . phd a: well well , we do , but we do n't do n't re - synthesize . in in the program we do n't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . we just use the clean fft bins . professor b: but you have a re - synthesized thing that you that 's an an option here . phd a: this is an option that then you can yeah . professor b: yeah , i gu i guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's it 's for the for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . but for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you do n't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . and if you do n't include that in the model , it does n't work very well . so in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . and , uh , generate new files or whatever , and and , uh , uh and then do the reverberation part . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd d: mmm . professor b: anyway . phd e: so dave has n't tried that yet ? professor b: no , no . he 's i mean , e phd e: i guess he 's busy with professor b: yeah , prelims , right . grad c: pre - prelim hell . professor b: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: so . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , but but , you know , that 'll uh , it 's clear that we , uh we are not with the real case that we 're looking at , we ca n't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is is considerable . and that 's i mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and and , uh and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and and additive effects . and that 's hard enough . i mean , i do n't think we really i mean , we 're trying to deal with that . in a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this aurora task . and we have , uh , the , uh , uh , lda stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . and we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . uh , even that 's hard enough . and and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i there 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on on juggling everything around . but now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . and , um , so dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with with long time effects but when it 's when there 's noise there too , it 's it 's it 's pretty hard . so we have to start since any almost any real situation is gon na have uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we we actually have to think about both at the same time . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , um so there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what what else is in the the form we have . phd a: yeah , well , the , um , the other parts of the system are the the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot . professor b: so that 's again , that that 's the wiener filtering , followed by , uh uh , that 's done at the fft level . then phd a: yeah , th then the mel filter bank , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: then the log operation , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: the the the filtering is done in the frequency domain ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . and then the mel and then the log , and then the phd a: then the lda filter , professor b: lda filter . phd a: mmm , then the downsampling , professor b: and then uh downsample , phd a: dct , professor b: dct , phd a: then , um , on - line normalization , professor b: on - line norm , phd a: followed by upsampling . then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also . professor b: right , and then in parallel with an a neural net . and then following neural net , some probably some orthogonalization . phd a: yeah . professor b: uh um . phd a: and finally frame dropping , which um , would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . and the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing . professor b: mm - hmm . so that 's sort of most of this stuff is yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so the things that we , um , uh , i guess we sort of uh , there 's there 's some , uh , neat ideas for v a so , i mean , in i think there 's sort of like there 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . there 's questions about various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . and there 's gon na be a host of those . but structurally it seemed like the things the main things that that we brought up that , uh , are are gon na need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a a significantly better vad , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we have n't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , opening up the second front . uh . phd e: the other half of the channel ? professor b: yeah , yeah , i mean , cuz we we have we have , uh , uh , half the the , uh , data rate that they allow . phd e: that what you mean ? professor b: and , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . it 's , you know , cheap , easy . uh . there 's a question about exactly how we do it . we probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so . um , { comment } i think tony robinson used to do i was saying this before . i think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . he used them as alternate features . put them together . phd e: hmm . professor b: uh . phd e: so if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gon na freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ? phd a: mm - hmm . it , uh , phd e: in terms of ranking ? phd a: ri - right now it 's second . phd d: second . phd a: um . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: although you you know , you have n't tested it actually on the german and danish , have you ? phd a: no , we did n't . no , um . professor b: yeah . phd e: so on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ? professor b: yeah . would it i mean but when you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh that the best system before got on , uh also without german and danish ? phd a: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah , ok . phd d: and th the ranking actually did n't change after the german and danish . so , yeah . professor b: well ranking did n't before , but i 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the german and danish , phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right ? phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: so . phd e: where where where were we actually on the last test ? professor b: oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were there were i mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . and so , i guess by that we were third , but i mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place . phd e: uh - huh . i see . ok . professor b: uh , so institutionally we were we were second , with , uh , the third third system . phd e: we 're so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ? professor b: see uh , no i think it 's also institutional , is n't it ? phd e: still institutionally second ? professor b: right ? i mean , i think both of their systems probably phd a: uh , we are between their two systems . so professor b: oh , are we ? phd a: i it is a triumph . phd d: yeah . professor b: is it ? phd d: their their first system is fifty - four point something . and , uh , we are fifty - three point something . phd a: but everything is within the range of one one percent . phd d: and their second system is also fifty - three point something . yeah , one percent . professor b: yeah , so so basically they 're all they 're all pretty close . phd e: oh , wow ! phd a: so . phd e: that 's very close . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: and and , um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . uh , i mean , one could argue about the lda and so forth but i i think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . but what what phd e: so how did they fill up this all these these bits ? i mean , if we 're u professor b: um , why are we using half ? well , so you could you c phd e: yeah . or how are they using more than half , i guess maybe is what i professor b: yeah , so i i think uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if i 'm wrong , but i i think that what 's going on is that in in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . uh , they have some cepstral modification , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? in our case we have a couple things . we have the on - line normalization and then we have the lda rasta . and they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help help us . but in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . but there 's one difference . the lda rasta , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . and they 're not doing that . phd e: so th so professor b: so that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample . grad c: get down . phd e: i see . i see . professor b: so phd e: so what if you did n't so do you explicitly downsample then ? do we explicitly downsample ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd e: and what if we did n't do that ? would we get worse performance ? phd a: um yeah , not better , not worse . professor b: i think it does n't affect it , does it ? phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so i think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor b: and , uh , so i you know , we we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . so that 's that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though i 'm saying i think we could do much better , just because it 's simple . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . and you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , `` oh , yeah , i understand `` , is is very helpful . phd e: so you would you 're you 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ? professor b: well , that 's a question . i mean , we were talking about that . it looks like it 'd be straightforward to to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh , phd e: cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ? professor b: yeah . so , i mean , to do it after the mel conversion uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . there 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . uh . i sort of think you should , but i do n't know . phd a: what about norm normalizing also ? professor b: right . uh . well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ? phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah , probably . some kind would be good . you know ? i would think . phd d: well , it it it it so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the uh , the frame . professor b: if you do or do n't normalize ? phd d: if yo if you do n't normalize and if if you do n't normalize . professor b: right . yes , so i mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . but i i w w my thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . and then if if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , `` ok , this much effect `` i mean , you do n't want to change six things and then see what happens . you want to change them one at a time . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . and then saying , oh uh particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these these these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and you learn a lot . so , i would think you would wan na have some baseline that says , `` ok , we do n't normalize , this is what we get `` , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . but but the other question is so i think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . i agree . phd e: so this second stream , will it add latency to the system professor b: no , it 's in parallel . phd e: or ? grad c: para professor b: we 're not talking about computation time here . phd e: s professor b: we 're ta i think we 're pretty far out . phd e: yeah . professor b: so it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . it 's depending on the same data as the other . phd e: same data . professor b: so it 's in parallel . phd e: ok . professor b: uh - huh . grad c: so with this , uh , new stream would you train up a vad on both both features , somehow ? phd d: no , i guess the vad has its own set of features . grad c: ok . that 's phd d: i mean , which could be this one of these streams , or it can be something derived from these streams . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . phd a: and there is also the idea of using traps , maybe , for the vad , which , um phd d: yeah , that 's also phd a: well , pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at ibm , that it 's a good idea . so . grad c: would would that fit on the handset , or ? oh ! phd a: i have no idea . grad c: ok . phd d: well , it has t i mean the th phd a: it would have to fit but yeah . phd d: yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff . professor b: well , there 's the delays and the storage , grad c: ok . professor b: yeah . but i do n't think the storage is so big for that . grad c: right . phd d: yeah . professor b: i think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . right ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . um . and so i guess the issue there is , are we are we using neural - net - based traps , and and how big are they ? so that 'll that 'll be , you know , an issue . grad c: oh , right . professor b: maybe they can be little ones . grad c: yeah . cuz sh right . professor b: mini - traps . grad c: cuz she also does the , uh the correlation - based , uh , traps , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between professor b: right . and maybe for vad they would be ok . yeah . yeah . grad c: yeah . professor b: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: or a simple neural net , right ? i mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple uh , uh uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this learn from the data . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: and so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , you know , not that big a deal . it certainly does n't take much space . grad c: mm - hmm . right . professor b: so , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? do you need to have an added layer or something ? in which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . so . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh , uh so what 's next ? maybe s s remind us . phd e: so the meeting with hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gon na freeze in this system ? is that ? or was there ? were you talking about what t new stuff , or ? professor b: what to freeze and then what to do after we froze . phd e: mmm . professor b: yeah . and like i was saying , i think the you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh i mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . and then , uh , improving the vad . uh . so . phd d: so , i 'll , um i 'll actually after the meeting i 'll add the second stream to the vad and maybe i 'll start with the feature net in that case . it 's like , you 're looking at the vad , right ? phd a: uh , yeah . i i 've a new feature net ready also . phd d: i 'll for the vad ? phd a: no , uh . well p two network , one vad and one feature net . phd d: oh , you already have it ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: ok , so just figure how to take the features from the final phd a: yeah . phd d: ok . phd a: um . but , yeah , i think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ . grad c: feature net . phd e: what about the , um uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , wall street journal part ? professor b: right . right . um . have you ever ? very good question . have you ever worked with the mississippi state h uh , software ? phd a: sorry . phd e: no . not yet . professor b: oh . well you you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary . phd e: ok . mm - hmm . so what how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? uh , i remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gon na give the system out or phd d: yeah . yeah . phd e: oh , so they 're gon na just deliver a system basically . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor b: do we already have it ? phd d: yeah , th i i guess it 's almost ready . phd e: uh - huh . phd d: so that 's what so they have released their , uh , document , describing the system . professor b: maybe you could , uh , point it at chuck , phd e: i see . professor b: because , i mean phd d: sure . phd e: so we 'll have to grab this over cvs or something ? phd d: it - no , it 's just downloadable from their from their web site . phd e: is that how they do it ? ok . professor b: cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've if you 've got time in all of this is , is if if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the phd e: ok . mm - hmm . professor b: and and , you know , iron out hassles that that you have to , uh , tweak joe about or whatever , phd e: sure . professor b: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff . phd e: ok . professor b: s phd d: so i 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . so i phd e: and it but it 's not ready yet , the system ? phd d: uh , i i think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . so they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance . phd e: are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? or ? phd d: uh , w i guess there is , uh , time during which people are gon na make suggestions . phd e: oh , but everybody 's gon na have to use the same values . phd d: after that . phd e: oh ! interesting . phd d: yeah , i guess . phd e: ok . phd d: so these sugges these this , uh , period during which people are gon na make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or professor b: yeah , so i th th certainly the thing that i would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things . phd e: using our features . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh , in which case , um , h hari or hynek will need to , you know , push the case more about about this . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd e: and we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with professor b: yes . in this case , that 's right . phd e: yeah . professor b: that 's right . um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the if our features are changing uh . phd e: yeah . professor b: uh . but , um . yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like november fifteenth is right around the corner . and , um , if they have n't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gon na be for this , uh , when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding . i mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , deciding , which means some experiments and and so forth . it it it seems pretty tight to me . phd e: so wha what 's the significance of november fifteenth ? professor b: that 's when the evaluation is . phd e: ok . professor b: yeah . so , yeah , so after but , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . it would n't , you know , entirely surprise me . but , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , i 'm i 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for a l a long while . that would be , uh put us in an awkward position . but anyway . phd e: ok . professor b: great . yeah , i think that 'll be helpful . there 's there 's not anybody ogi currently who 's who 's , uh , working with this and and phd e: is is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall ? professor b: i i think it 's it 's , um it depends how badly you do . i mean , i think that it it is uh . phd d: b phd e: this is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? professor b: yeah . well , i mean , it 's it 's conceptually , it my impression , again , you guys correct me if i 'm wrong , but my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . that you have n't come across you have n't invented features which are actually gon na do badly for a a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . and , um , but it 's not the main emphasis . phd e: mmm . professor b: i mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary . phd e: mmm . professor b: so it 's it 's a double check . so they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight . phd e: seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . y you passed the threshold or you did n't pass the threshold , and they should n't even care about what the score is . professor b: yeah . but , i mean , we 'll we 'll we 'll see what they come up with . uh , but in in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the on the well - matched , but it 's only a a marginal , phd e: yeah . professor b: right ? it 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . so you still if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect . phd d: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , it would n't surprise me if they did something like that with this . so again , if you 're if you get if it does n't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much . phd e: oh . professor b: but if it if you do n't if it does n't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then phd e: mm - hmm . so is this , uh ? uh , guenter was putting a bunch of wall street journal data on our disks . professor b: that 's it . phd e: so that 's the data that we 'll be running on ? professor b: yeah . phd e: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . so we have the data , just not the recognizer . ok . phd e: so this test may take quite a while to run , then . may - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on . professor b: uh , well there 's training and test , right ? phd e: i i guess , i 'm not sure . professor b: no , i mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's there 's data for training the h m ms and and data for testing it . phd e: i just professor b: so i would n't so it it 's phd e: ok . so there 's professor b: so , training the recognizer , but , um um . but i think it 's trained on clean and is it trained on clean and and test on ? phd d: the wall street ? professor b: yeah . phd a: apparently , no . it 's training on a range between ten and twenty db , i think , and testing between five and fifteen . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd a: that 's what i got on professor b: ok . phd d: it 's , uh it 's like a medium medium - mismatch condition , sort of . phd a: yeah , professor b: i see . phd a: and so the noise is there is a range of different noises also um which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . and there are noises that are different from the noises used on ti - digits . professor b: yeah . yeah . i mean , i would n't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . they probably put training uh , almost certain they put training data there too . maybe not . so . that 's that . anybody have anything else ? phd e: uh , one one last question on that . when did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ? phd d: um , i guess i guess one some preliminary version is already there . phd e: oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ? phd d: yeah , it 's already there . yeah . phd e: ok , phd d: but they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , i think . phd e: good . phd d: so i guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe . phd e: ok . professor b: oh , well that 's pretty soon . phd d: yeah , that 's just one more . grad c: is this their , um , svm recognizer ? phd d: no , it 's just a straightforward hmm . professor b: you know , their their they have a lot of options in their recognizer and and the svm is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing . grad c: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor b: for the most part it 's it 's gaussian mixtures . grad c: oh , ok . oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd d: it 's just a hmm , gaussian mixture model . grad c: gaussian mixture hmm . professor b: yeah . grad c: ok . professor b: yeah , the svm thing was an hmm also . it was just a it it it was like a hybrid , like grad c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , this is a g yeah , this i professor b: what ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: so , just so that i understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? is that the idea ? phd d: i i i think yeah , i i guess something like that . it 's like as painless as possible , phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: is what do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then just , phd e: i see . hmm . somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and phd d: ju yeah , i th i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: hmm . yeah , um . in fact , i mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable you know joe , right ? yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . so that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for for the usual twiddle factors and what 's what 's the plan about that ? phd e: ok . phd d: so sh shall we , like , add chuck also to the mailing lists ? it may be better , i mean , in that case if he 's going to professor b: yeah . phd d: because there 's a mailing list for this . professor b: is that ok ? phd e: yeah , that 'd be great . phd d: yeah , i guess maybe hari or hynek , one of them , has to send a mail to joe . or maybe if you phd e: i i could send him an email . phd d: well , yeah , to add or maybe wh phd e: i i know him really well . phd d: yeah , so that 's just fine . phd e: i i was just talking with him on email the other day actually . phd d: so professor b: uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see . phd d: so phd e: about other things , but . professor b: do you have hari 's , uh ? phd e: i have hari 's professor b: yeah , so maybe just cc hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know , phd e: ok . would it be better if i asked hari to ask joe ? professor b: uh . why do n't you just ask joe but cc hari , and then in the note say , `` hari , hopefully this is ok with you `` . phd e: ok . professor b: and then if joe feels like he needs a confirmation , hari can answer it . phd e: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: that way you can get started asking { comment } joe quickly while he 's while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and yeah . phd d: and there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been gon that has gone , uh , between these people among these people . so just you can see all this mails in the isip web site phd e: ok . phd d: mississippi web site . phd e: ok . is that a password controlled ? phd d: yeah , it 's password protected . phd e: ok . phd d: so , like like , it 's , like professor b: have you thought about how long would be uh , most useful for you to go up to ogi ? phd a: i do n't know , uh . we can for september , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . and then at some point it maybe be better to work together again . professor b: oh , so you 're you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then and then go up there ? phd a: i professor b: i mean , it 's to you . phd a: maybe , yeah . professor b: i ju you guys are well , y anyway , you do n't have to decide this second but thi think about it about what what you would think would be the the best way to work it . i 'll phd a: but , uh huh . mm - hmm . professor b: support it either way , so . phd a: mm - hmm right . professor b: ok . uh . got anything to tell us ? grad c: um . well , i 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . just , um , i guess , let me put it in context . ok , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um to classify . and , uh , i was looking at some of the work that , uh , sangita was doing on these traps things . so she has , um she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from from timit , right ? the most common phonemes . and each one of them has has a a nice pattern over time , a one one second window . and it has has these patterns . um , so she has , um a trap for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . and , um , she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points many different clusters uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . and then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how how closely related they are . and you start , um by merging the patterns that are most closely related . phd e: and you create a tree . grad c: and y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um . phd e: and then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters . grad c: right , usually it 's when , um when the sol similarity measures , um , do n't go down as much . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and so , uh so you stop at that point . and what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops . professor b: mm - hmm . grad c: and , uh , one for silence and and another one for schwa schwa sounds . um , and , um , i was thinking about ways to to generalize this because w you 're it 's sort of like a it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these these traps and you 're saying that that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . um , and that 's that 's constraining your your clustering to to the set of phonemes that you already have . um , whereas maybe we want to just take take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: and i 'm thinking if we if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , ok , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable stable point . phd e: mm - hmm . grad c: um , and i 'm hoping to find other things of of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um intermediate categories that , uh , um , i 'll later classify . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: are you looking at these in narrow bands ? grad c: um , right . f um , i 'm professor b: cuz that 's what you 're gon na be using , right ? grad c: yeah , yeah . i i have n't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the the representation of the data that i was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , um , over different lengths of time . so yeah . professor b: yeah , i mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that i wonder about with this . i mean , so one is is , again , looking at the same representation , grad c: ok . professor b: i mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: that that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . um , and then the other thing , uh , is that i wonder about with it , and and do n't take this in the wrong way , like i i know what i 'm doing or anything , grad c: right . professor b: but , i mean . um , just wondering really . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or or parameters um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better . grad c: hmm . professor b: um , and i do n't know if that i mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe maybe this is n't right , but it 'd be something i 'd be concerned about . because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from from , uh from your your quals , john ohala saying that , uh , `` buh `` { comment } and `` puh `` { comment } differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . i mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , if you looked if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . and yet , i would gue i would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , { comment } screwing up on this distinction . grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . and the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they do n't work as well as we 'd like . and since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , `` how well is it distinguishing between schwas and stops ? `` grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: boy , i bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: so these these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . so , what are we bringing to the party ? i mean , in fact what we wan na do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together . grad c: mmm . professor b: so that 's th that 's the hard thing . i mean , i understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wan na have categories that , uh that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . and it 's something that you really think you can pick up . but i think it 's also essential that you wan na look at what are the confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions . grad c: mm - hmm . hmm . professor b: so , i mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . y y this is more like , you know , how does lda differ from pca ? i mean , they 're the same sort of thing . they 're both orthogonalizing . grad c: right . professor b: but , you know and and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . you 're actually trying to find the the the the categories themselves . uh , so a little more like brain surgery , i think on yourself . uh . so , uh grad c: yeah . professor b: um , anyway . that 's my thought . grad c: ok . professor b: you 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . i mean , well w actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it a lot . phd e: yeah . professor b: and you 've been thinking about it more now , phd d: yeah . professor b: these categories . phd e: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i guess i do n't i do n't um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which i think is right , with the way i 've been looking at it . that it 's it 's it 's all not very clear to me . but it seems to me that the desire the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . you know , however we do that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and and so i guess what i do n't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human human sig significant categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that . professor b: right . phd e: but that 's sort of what you want to avoid . and so that feels i do n't know how to get out of this . professor b: well , here 's a here 's a , uh , uh here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , um , what do you really i mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that that have something from top - down in th in them . right ? because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it does n't have any kind of reward for doing or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: so whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's got ta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning , phd e: right . professor b: right ? phd e: so the question is , how far down ? professor b: and phd e: we could stop at words , but we do n't , right ? we go all the way down to phonemes . professor b: right , but i me i i think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is is trying to deal with the with these phonemes . you know , and and and i it 's almost like you want categories if if our if our , uh , um , metric of of goodness , uh , i if our phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: correction if our metric of badness is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , for for for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , i mean , that 's really i mean , d w in many applications you wan na go further . you wan na go to concepts or something , or have have have concepts , actions , this sort of thing . phd e: yeah . but words would be a nice professor b: but , words are n't bad , yeah . and and phd e: yeah , so the common right , the common wisdom is you ca n't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? so you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and and so everybody goes to phonemes . but the problem is that we we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are are really cartoon - ish , right ? so when you look at conversational speech , for example , you do n't see the phonemes that you that you have in your word models . professor b: yeah . but but but we 're not trying for models of words here . see , so her here 's maybe where if the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then maybe it does n't matter that we ca n't have enough phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , what you wan na do is is build up these categories that are that are best for word recognition . phd e: right . right . professor b: and and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories i mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of of running o a thousand experiments phd e: right . professor b: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate . phd e: yeah . professor b: in some way i mean , we derive that all the time . in some ways it 's really not { comment } a bad bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the the final goal . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way , phd e: right . professor b: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other it could be syllable but in some large unit , phd e: uh - huh . professor b: uh , and uh yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of do n't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so that 's , uh , wh what i called a useless comments because i 'm not really telling you how to do it . but i mean , it 's a it 's it 's , you know it phd e: no , but i think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories . professor b: right . phd e: and i think this the important categories are the words , and not the phones . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: maybe . and so right . if you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters uh professor b: now , that being said , i think that that if you have something that is , um i once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are are really true . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: if you have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like timit , then , you know , i i you the phones are gon na be right , actually , for the most part . phd e: yeah . yeah , professor b: so so , uh , it does n't really hurt them to to do that , to put in discrimination at that level . phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's it 's trickier and and and , uh , the phones are uh , you know , it 's gon na be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of phd e: professor b: and , um and it wo n't allow for the overlapping phenomenon phd e: mmm . so it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we we deal with that , but but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it does n't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be munged , you know , and and it does n't really hurt , and i 'm not sure how how to build that in . uh . professor b: yeah , i mean , i guess the other thing i is is to think of a little bit i mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results i think it usually is is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or or or , uh , even phones in in in in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . you know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? or is it cor you know , is it ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i know one thing that happens is that you you you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . i mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones sometimes do n't get heard . and if that if that is if it uh , if that turns it into another word or or different you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . but , um , i do n't know , i w i would i would guess that you 'd grad c: mm - hmm . professor b: w i do n't know . anyway , that 's phd e: i think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: you know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . and so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what what should be there . professor b: well that grad c: yeah . we 're we 're doing some sort of prediction of what phd e: yeah , exactly . professor b: oh , sure , that 's really big . grad c: yeah . professor b: uh , but i mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really is n't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they than they are in in , uh uh , than the machines are . phd e: hmm . professor b: so , i mean , that 's i right . we ca n't we ca n't get it at all without any language models . language models are there and important but but , uh uh . if we 're not working on that then we should work on something else and improve it , but especially if it looks like the potential is there . so should we do some digits ? phd e: yeah . professor b: since we 're here ? phd e: go ahead , morgan . professor b: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: that 's all folks .

phd e informed the team that guenter was putting the wall street journal data on the team 's disks . there was a lot of data so it would take some time to run the models .

summarize the meeting </s> phd f: ok . professor b: uh . somebody else should run this . i 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , `` well , what do you think about this ? `` you wan na ? phd d: yeah . phd f: should we take turns ? you want me to run it today ? professor b: yeah . why do n't you run it today ? ok . phd f: ok . ok . um . let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . um , i guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . but aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up phd d: mmm . phd f: for today ? no ? ok . so why do n't we just around and people can give updates . phd e: oh . phd f: uh , do you want to start , stephane ? phd c: alright . um . well , the first thing maybe is that the p eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . um . yeah . phd f: this is what what do you , uh what 's in the paper there ? phd c: so it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the aurora . phd f: the one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: right , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: uh - huh . phd c: um yeah . so and the , fff { comment } comments seems from the reviewer are good . so . phd f: hmm . phd c: mmm yeah . phd f: where where 's it gon na be this year ? phd c: it 's , uh , aalborg in denmark . and it 's , phd f: oh , ok . phd c: yeah , september . phd f: mmm . phd c: mmm yeah . then , uh , whhh well , i 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . uh , i 've been trying different slightly slightly different approaches . um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . um , and so i have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . mmm . this actually do n't s does n't seem to help , although it does n't hurt . so . but well , both on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . well , they phd f: are the means pretty different for the two ? phd c: yeah . they can be very different . yeah . mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: so do you maybe make errors in different places ? different kinds of errors ? phd c: i did n't look , uh , more closely . um . it might be , yeah . mm - hmm . um . well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for c - zero and c - one than for the other coefficients . and yeah . and yeah , it the c - one is there are strange strange thing happening with c - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . and phd f: hmm . phd c: so when you look at the trajectory of c - one , it 's has a strange shape and i was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange c - ze c - one shape , uh , which can like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd f: oh . phd c: so which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we do n't frame ev uh , drop everything , but uh , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and mmm . { comment } but i still have to investigate further , i think . um , a third thing is , um , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , i try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . t t um yeah . and then this time constant increases and i have a threshold that professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , i keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when if the utterance is , uh , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: or mmm . uh , well , this does n't help neither , but this does n't hurt . so , well . it seems pretty phd f: was n't there some experiment you were gon na try where you did something differently for each , um , uh i do n't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , fft bin or someth there was something you were gon na uh , { comment } some parameter you were gon na vary depending on the frequency . i do n't know if that was phd c: i guess it was i do n't know . no . u maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different mfcc 's . phd f: for each , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . i i thought , morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . and then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said `` yeah , it does seem like , you know , c - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one `` or , uh , s i ca n't remember exactly what it was now . phd c: mmm . yeah . there uh , actually , yeah . s um , it 's very important to normalize c - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . and , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . and we i think , we kind of know that normalizing c - one does n't help with the current scheme . and and yeah . in my idea , i i was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . um yeah . but maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: um , i i really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . i know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , um , just seeing that each of these things did n't make things better may not be enough . it may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . and if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: hmm . phd c: alright . mmm . yeah . w um , so that 's it , i think , for the on - line normalization . um yeah . i 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , i think i yeah . well , what i did is t is to take , um to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold well , this for each mel band . then put a threshold that 's fifteen db below well , uh , a couple of db below this maximum , professor b: mm - hmm . mmm . phd c: and actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so i was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen db below the maximum energy of the utterance . and yeah . when we look at at the , um , mfcc that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . phd f: hmm . phd c: um . and yeah . and the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: hmm . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen db just fifteen db below the maximum energy . grad a: sorry . phd c: and at least phd f: so why does that m smooth things out ? i do n't i do n't understand that . professor b: well , there 's less difference . right ? phd c: it 's i think , it 's whitening this the portion that are more silent , professor b: cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: huh . oh , ok . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech do n't get much affected anyway by the other noise . and as the noise you add is the same is the shape , it 's also the same . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: so they have the trajectory are very , very similar . and and professor b: so , i mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you do n't do b do badly . the reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . even if the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . and and phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's , phd f: hmm . professor b: uh phd f: so would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: i think it 's i think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: it 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the aurora database . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: if if you compare th the two shut channels of speechdat - car during speech portion , it 's n n n the mfcc are not very different . they are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . and , professor b: yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: uh professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . phd c: ye professor b: right ? phd c: yeah . so it distort the speech . right . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . phd f: so performance went down ? phd c: no . it did n't . but phd f: oh . phd c: yeah . so , but in this case i i really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . i mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: uh , i mean , first place it 's fifteen db , uh , down across the utterance . and maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . secondly , you happened to pick fifteen db phd c: mmm . professor b: and maybe twenty 'd be better , phd c: yeah . professor b: or or twelve . phd c: yeah . right . phd f: so what was the what was the threshold part of it ? was the threshold , uh , how far down ? professor b: yeah . well , he yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . so he was looking he was looking at the peak value . phd f: uh - huh . professor b: right ? and then phd c: uh - huh . phd f: and and so what 's ho i do n't understand . how does it go ? if it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? or if it 's below s phd c: i systematically { comment } add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . phd f: oh , oh . i see . phd c: mmm . phd f: i see . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . yeah . which is not really noise , actually . it 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: to each of the mel filter bank . yeah . phd f: i see . phd c: so , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . i th professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . phd c: mm - hmm . um . yeah . so may well , the this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . and i do n't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or um professor b: or or not constant but but , uh , varying over time in fact is another way to go . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd c: yeah . um professor b: were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? i mean , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: um yeah . it was it was , uh , the same system . mm - hmm . professor b: ok . phd c: it was the same system . mmm . oh , yeah . a third thing is that , um , i play a little bit with the , um finding what was different between , um , and there were a couple of differences , like the lda filters were not the same . um , he had the france telecom blind equalization in the system . um , the number o of mfcc that was were used was different . you used thirteen and we used fifteen . well , a bunch of differences . and , um , actually the result that he he got were much better on ti - digits especially . so i 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . and it seems that the lda filter is is was hurting . um , so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , lda filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . and it makes a big difference , um , on ti - digits trained on clean . uh , if we use the the old lda filter , i mean the lda filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . but and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um . yeah . so now the results are more similar , and i do n't i will not , i think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of mfcc that we keep and other small things that we can i think optimize later on anyway . professor b: sure . but on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . right ? so if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , i mean which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to aurora ? are they they both ? well , i mean phd c: i think yeah . i think th th uh , the new system that i tested is , i guess , closer because it does n't have it have less of of france telecom stuff , phd d: you mean the phd c: i phd d: the whatever you , uh , tested with recently . right ? phd c: mmm ? yeah . phd d: yeah ? professor b: well , no , i i 'm i yeah , you 're trying to add in france telecom . phd c: but , we professor b: tell them about the rest of it . like you said the number of filters might be different or something . right ? or phd d: the number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: cep phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so , i mean , i think we 'd wan na standardize there , would n't we ? phd c: yeah , yeah . professor b: so , sh you guys should pick something phd d: yeah . professor b: and well , all th all three of you . phd d: yeah . phd c: i think we were gon na work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: uh , so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . phd c: so right . yeah . phd d: yeah , so yeah , so yep . phd c: but we will use the the lda filters f derived from clean speech . well , yeah , actually it 's it 's not the the lda filter . phd d: yeah , yeah . so phd c: it 's something that 's also short enough in in latency . phd d: yeah . well . phd c: so . phd d: yeah . so , we have n't w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients , phd c: yeah . phd d: not thirteen ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . well , uh , that 's something 's um . yeah . then professor b: i think as long as you guys agree on it , it does n't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: i think we have a maximum of sixty , uh , features that we 're allowed . so . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . ma - maybe we can i mean , at least , um , i 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once i have this { comment } noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: never tested it with the compensation , but without , uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: yeah . phd d: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen . phd c: yeah . and there is there is also this log energy versus c - zero . phd d: sorry , fifteen . yeah , the log energy versus c - zero . phd c: well . w w if if phd d: uh , that 's that 's the other thing . i mean , without noise compensation certainly c - zero is better than log energy . be - i mean , because the there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: you know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than c - zero . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not for i mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy i mean you get a better performance with log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , i do n't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for c - zero or log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: we can see that . phd c: yeah . phd d: hmm . phd c: mmm . phd f: so do you have more , stephane , or ? phd c: uh , that 's it , i think . mmm . phd f: do you have anything , morgan , or ? professor b: uh , no . i 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . so . phd f: how about you , barry ? grad a: um , still working on my my quals preparation stuff . um , so i 'm i 'm thinking about , um , starting some , uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that i want to classify . so , for example , um , if i know where voicing occurs and everything , um , i would do a phone um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the the , uh the perfect knowledge that i have about voicing . so , um , in particular i was thinking , um , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those lna files , and , um , setting to zero those probabilities that , um that these phones are not voicing . so say , like , i know this particular segment is voicing , um , i would say , uh , go into the corresponding lna file and zonk out the the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced , phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and then see what kinds of improvements i get . and so this would be a useful thing , um , to know in terms of , like , which which , um which of these categories are are good for , um , speech recognition . phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so , that 's i hope to get those , uh those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in july . phd f: so do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: yeah . i i i was thinking ok , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , um , phones . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? and then renormalize . phd f: mmm . grad a: right . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: cool . that will be really interesting to see , you know . so then you 're gon na feed the those into some standard recognizer . grad a: mm - hmm . phd f: uh , wh are you gon na do digits grad a: yeah , m um , well , i 'm gon na f work with timit phd f: or ? with timit . ok . grad a: timit uh , phone recognition with timit . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and , um phd f: oh , so then you 'll feed those sorry . so where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: oh . um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , icsi hybrid , um , recognizer . so maybe , um , chronos phd f: an - and you 're gon na the you 're gon na do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or phone recognition . right , right . phd f: ok , ok . i see . grad a: so . and , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where i can look at whole words . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and i would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , inter - phoneme events . so , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: segment . you know , so something that is transitional in nature . phd f: right . grad a: yeah . phd f: cool . great . grad a: so that 's that 's it . phd f: uh ok . grad a: yeah . phd f: um let 's see , i have n't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . i 've been focusing mainly on meeting recorder stuff . phd c: oh . phd f: so , um , i guess i 'll just pass it on to dave . grad g: uh , ok . well , in my lunch talk last week i i said i 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . it turned out there was a bug in my matlab code . so i tried it again , um , and , um , the results were were better . i got intelligible speech back . but they still were n't as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means . and also i 've been talking to , um , andreas and thilo about the , um , smartkom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the smartkom system . so i 'm gon na be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the smartkom system , i mean . and , um , one of the experiments we 're gon na do is , um , we 're gon na , um , train the a broadcast news net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . um , an - andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the smartkom system interaction is not gon na be exactly conversational . phd f: mm - hmm . grad g: s so actually i was wondering , how long does it take to train that broadcast news net ? professor b: the big one takes a while . yeah . that takes two , three weeks . grad g: two , three weeks . professor b: so but , you know , uh , you can get i do n't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . so , um , you can scale it down by i 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large broadcast news test set training set . i do n't know how much you 'd be training on . grad g: oh . professor b: the full ? grad g: ok . professor b: uh , i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: ok . professor b: and it 'd be nearly as good . so . grad g: ok . professor b: yeah . also , i guess we had we 've had these , uh , little di discussions i guess you ha have n't had a chance to work with it too much about about , uh uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . so , i mean , i i guess that was something i could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh and not not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . but it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . but grad g: and , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization so i did two experiments , and one is so , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . and so i thought at first , um , that , uh , what i should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . um , but i actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in matlab than i did not unwrapping at all . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . p so . grad g: and that 's all i have to say . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . so i 'm i 'm still hopeful that that i mean , we we do n't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . i mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it is n't the right thing to do . but , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . one one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh in rectangular kind of coordinates . and the other is to , uh , do a taylor series well . so you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . so then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . we do n't really know that . the other thing we talked a little bit about was taylor series expansion . and , um , uh , actually i was talking to dick karp about it a little bit , and and and , since i got thinking about it , and and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , i think , uh we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but i think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . and and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one it should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: ok . professor b: and so forth . so if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges . grad g: oh . professor b: so you have to do some scaling . but that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of k times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of k plus log of the complex number . grad g: oh . professor b: uh , so there 's grad g: ok . professor b: converges . but . phd f: hmm . ok . how about you , sunil ? phd d: so , um , i 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , wiener filtering for this aurora task . and , uh , i i actually thought it was it was doing fine when i tested it once . i it 's , like , using a small section of the code . and then i ran the whole recognition experiment with italian and i got , like , worse results than not using it . then i so , i 've been trying to find where the problem came from . and then it looks like i have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . and , ugh ! i i mean , i uh , it actually i it actually made the whole thing worse . i was looking at the spectrograms that i got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . like , when i professor b: i i missed the v i 'm sorry , i was i was distracted . i missed the very first sentence . so then , i 'm a little lost on the rest . phd d: oh , i mean professor b: what what what ? phd d: oh , yeah . i actually implemented the wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately . professor b: yeah , i see . oh , ok . phd d: and it it it gave , like i just got the signal out and it it was ok . so , i plugged it in somewhere and then i mean , it 's like i had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . and then i in that process i messed it up somewhere . professor b: ok . phd d: so . so , it was real i mean , i thought it was all fine and then i ran it , and i got something worse than not using it . so , i was like i 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: uh - huh . phd d: and it seems to be , like , somewhere professor b: ok . phd d: some silly stuff . and , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh well , hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then i was t talking wi professor b: right . yeah . as as he is wont to do . yeah . phd d: uh , yeah . so i was actually that day i was thinking about d doing something about the wiener filtering , and then carlos matter of stuff . and then he showed up and then i told him . and then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then that was something which came up . and then , um so , uh , i 'm actually , uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , w wiener filtering because that is a m modified wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the wiener filter . so instead of designing our own new wiener filters , i may just use one of those carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing the wiener filter professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: but @ @ s so , i do n't know , i was h i 'm i 'm i 'm , like that so that is the next thing . once this i once i sort this pro uh , problem out maybe i 'll just go into that also . and the the other thing was about the subspace approach . so , um , i , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . so just i just @ @ some small block of things which i needed to put together for the subspace approach . and i 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . and , um , uh yeah . i guess yep . i guess that 's it . and , uh , th th that 's where i am right now . so . phd f: oh . how about you , carmen ? phd e: mmm . i 'm working with vts . um , i do several experiment with the spanish database first , only with vts and nothing more . not vad , no lda , nothing more . phd f: what what is vts again ? phd d: new phd e: eh , vectorial taylor series . phd f: oh , yes . phd e: to remove the noise too . phd f: right , right . i think i ask you that every single meeting , do n't i ? phd e: what ? phd f: i ask you that question every meeting . phd e: yeah . professor b: so , that 'd be good from for analysis . phd e: if well professor b: it 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different different times . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: `` what is vts ? `` phd e: vts . i 'm sor well , um , the question is that well . remove some noise but not too much . and when we put the m m the , em , vad , the result is better . and we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without vts . no , no . professor b: i see . so that @ @ { comment } given that you 're using the vad also , the effect of the vts is not so far phd e: is not . professor b: do you how much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: pfft . i do n't know because phd c: are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: hhh , phd c: or ? or i ? phd e: uh , i do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . phd c: yeah . hmm . phd e: and also i did some experiment , uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . and , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different they all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: mmm . phd e: mmm . no , i do that two t did two time . phd c: but they use every all use a different one . professor b: i have an idea . if if , uh , uh , y you 're right . i mean , each of these require this . um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? s so , e um , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: first place , i mean even if ultimately we would n't be given the boundaries , uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . i mean , how much is the poor you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um . so maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . phd e: yeah . another thing is the , em the codebook , the initial codebook . that maybe , well , it 's too clean and professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: cuz it 's a i do n't know . the methods if you want , you c i can say something about the method . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . in the because it 's a little bit different of the other method . well , we have if this if this is the noise signal , uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . now , we have something like this . and the idea of these methods is to n given a , um professor b: phd e: how do you say ? i will read because it 's better for my english . i i given is the estimate of the pdf of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . and the clean speech the statistic of the clean speech is from a codebook . mmm ? this is the idea . well , like , this relation is not linear . the methods propose to develop this in a vectorial taylor series approximation . professor b: i i 'm actually just confused about the equations you have up there . so , uh , the top equation is is is phd e: no , this in the it 's this is the log domain . i i must to say that . professor b: which is which is the log domain ? phd e: is the t is egual { comment } is equal to , uh , log of professor b: and but y is what ? y of the spectrum phd e: uh , this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . professor b: no , no . the top y is what ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: is that power spectrum ? phd e: uh , this is the noisy speech . phd c: p s this professor b: no , is that power spectrum ? is it ? phd c: yeah . i guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech . phd e: yeah . it 's the power spectrum . professor b: oh , ok . phd c: yeah . and professor b: so that 's uh phd e: this is the noisy yeah , it 's professor b: ok . phd e: of the value professor b: yeah , ok . so this it 's the magnitude squared or something . phd e: yeah . professor b: ok , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on t , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o yeah . it 's the same . professor b: you just mean the log of the of the one up above . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , uh , so that is x times , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , phd d: one one plus n by x . phd e: yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: but , n well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: x times one plus , uh , n uh , n n n minus x ? phd e: the yeah . professor b: and then , uh so that 's log of x plus log of one plus , uh phd e: and the noise signal . professor b: well . is that right ? log of phd d: one plus n by x . phd e: well , mmm professor b: i actually do n't see how you get that . uh . phd e: well , if we apply the log , we have e is n phd c: mmm . phd d: uh , and phd e: uh , log e is equal , oh , to log of x plus n . professor b: yeah . phd e: and , well , phd d: and , log of phd e: uh , we can say that e is equal to log of , um , exponential of x plus exponential of n . professor b: uh phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: well , if e restricts it is y phd e: well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . well , we have that , um we have first that , for example , x is equal , uh well . this is the frequency domain professor b: yeah . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of x omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . no ? no ? oh , maybe it 's i am i 'm problem . professor b: yeah . i mean , just never mind what they are . uh , it 's just if x and n are variables right ? phd d: what is , uh ? professor b: the the the log of x plus n is not the same as the log of e to the x plus e to the n . phd e: yeah . but this i well , i do n't well , uh , professor b: maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but i i do n't know . phd e: i i can do this incorrectly . well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , uh phd d: the log the taylor series expansion for log one plus n by x is professor b: ok . phd c: is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is x professor b: i i phd d: yeah , the first one . phd c: yeah , i guess . phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . yeah . cuz it does n't just follow what 's there . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: it has to be some , uh , taylor series phd d: y yeah . if if you take log x into log one plus n by x , and then expand the log one plus n by x into taylor series phd c: yeah . phd e: now , this is the and then phd c: yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: not exactly . professor b: no . phd e: no , no , no . it 's not the first space . well , we have pfft , uh , em well , we can put that x is equal i is equal to log of , uh , mmm professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: mmm . phd e: well , we can put , uh , this ? phd d: no . professor b: that i mean , that the f top one does not imply the second one . because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: the top ? professor b: i mean , as phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: but we can uh , we we know that , for example , the log of e plus b is equal to log of e plus log to b . professor b: right . phd e: and we can say here , it i professor b: right . so you could s phd c: what is that ? phd e: and we can , uh , put this inside . professor b: yeah . phd e: and then we can , uh , professor b: n no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: yeah . professor b: i do n't see how you get the second expression from the top one . phd d: uh . professor b: the i mean , just more generally here , if you say `` log of , um , a plus b `` , the log of log of a plus b is not or a plus b is not the , um , log of e to the a plus e to the b . phd e: no , no , no , no , no , no , no . this not . professor b: right ? and that 's what you seem to be saying . phd e: no . no . it 's not . but this is the same oh . professor b: right ? cuz you cuz you up here you have the a plus b phd e: no . i say if i apply log , i have , uh , log of e is equal to log of , uh in this side , is equal to log of x professor b: plus n . phd e: plus n . professor b: right . phd e: no ? professor b: right . phd e: right . professor b: and then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: this is right . and then if i apply exponential , to have here e professor b: look . ok , so let 's i mean , c equals a plus b , phd c: it 's log o of capital y . yeah , right . professor b: and then phd c: capital y . phd e: yeah . phd d: x . x . this is x , inside . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd e: we have this , no ? professor b: yeah . that one 's right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: one and phd e: s uh , i th we can put here the set transformation . professor b: oh . i see . phd e: no ? professor b: i see . ok , i understand now . alright , thanks . phd e: yeah . in this case , well , we can put here a y . professor b: ok . so , yeah . it 's just by definition that the individual that the , uh so , capital x is by definition the same as e to the little x because she 's saying that the little x is is the , uh is the log . alright . phd e: now we can put this . professor b: yeah . phd e: no ? professor b: alright . phd e: and here we can multiply by x . professor b: i think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: oh , yes . professor b: so you know which is which . but i i under i understand what you mean now . phd e: yeah , yeah . that 's true . that 's true . professor b: ok . phd e: but this this is correct ? professor b: sure . phd e: and now i can do it , uh pfff ! i can put log of ex plus log professor b: oh . yes . i understand now . and that 's where it comes from . phd e: and this is professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . right . professor b: right . phd e: now it 's correct . professor b: right . ok . thanks . phd e: well . the idea well , we have fixed this equa professor b: ok . so now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , taylor series expansion of this . phd e: yeah . this is another linear relation that this to develop this in vector s taylor series . phd c: yeah , sure . professor b: right . phd e: mm - hmm . and for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um est estimate a pdf for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . mmm ? and when w the way to obtain the pdf for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and then when we have a expression , uh , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . this only that . but the idea is that phd c: and the the model of clean speech is a codebook . right ? phd e: u yeah . we have our codebook with different density gaussian . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: we can expre we can put that the pdf { comment } for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: yeah . phd e: phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: yeah . phd e: i i need to s professor b: yeah . phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: cuz i think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , um , you do n't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not . phd e: yeah . i the clean speech the codebook for clean speech , i am using timit . and i have now , uh , sixty - four gaus - gaussian . professor b: uh - huh . and what are you using for the noisy ? y y doing that strictly phd e: of the noise i estimate the noises wi professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: well , for the noises i only use one gaussian . professor b: and and you and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: hmm . phd e: uh , yes . the first experiment that i do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: yeah . phd e: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is the first experiment . professor b: yeah . phd e: and i fix this for all the all the sentences . uh , because well , the vts methods in fact the first thing that i do is to to obtain , uh , an expression for e probability e expression of of e . that mean that the vts mmm , with the vts we obtain , uh well , we we obtain the means for each gaussian { comment } and the variance . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is one . eh , this is the composition of the dictionary . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this one thing . and the other thing that this with these methods is to , uh , obtain to calculate this value . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: because we can write uh , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: this is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of e minus a function that conditional to e to the t to the noise signal . well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . give px and , uh , p the noise . phd d: x k c noise . professor b: mmm . phd e: and i can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus well , i put before this name , uh and i can calculate this . professor b: what is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: uh , this is the gaussian . professor b: no , no . i 'm sorry . in in the one you pointed at . what 's that variable ? phd e: v uh , this is the phd d: weak . so probably it it would do that . phd e: like this , phd c: it 's one mixture of the model . right ? phd e: but conditional . no , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . it 's modify . uh , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each gaussian . professor b: ok . phd e: no . and now , this weight is different now professor b: yes . phd e: because it 's conditional . and this i need to to calcu i know this professor b: uh - huh . phd e: and i know this because this is from the dictionary that you have . professor b: uh - huh . phd e: i need to calculate this . professor b: yes . phd e: and for calculate this , i have an i i can develop an expression that is phd d: it 's overlapping . phd e: that . i can calculate i can i calculated this value , uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that i calculated before with the vts approximation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and well , normalizing . and i know everything . uh , with the , nnn when i develop this in s taylor taylor series , i ca n't , um , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . now . and this is fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: if i never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that i need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: so , i 'm i 'm not following this perfectly but , um , i are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? and never change throughout anything else ? phd e: yeah . never cha this is one of the approximations that i am doing . professor b: per per per utterance , or per ? phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: per utterance . ok . phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: so it 's done it 's done new for each new utterance . phd e: and th professor b: so this changes the whole mapping for every utterance . phd e: yeah . it 's not yeah . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , the dictionary . professor b: ok . phd e: and the other estimation is when i do the uh on - line estimation , i change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: yeah ? phd e: each time that i detect noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i do it uh again this develop . estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . and with th with this new s new mean and variance i estimate again this . professor b: so you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? uh , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: um , no , no , no . it 's not completely no , it 's i am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . professor b: ok . now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? yeah . i mean , i know you do n't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , uh , um phd e: i estimate mean and variance for each one of the gaussian of the codebook . professor b: no , i 'm talking about the noise . phd e: oh , professor b: there 's only one gaussian . phd e: um . well , only one i am only using only one . professor b: right . phd e: i do n't know i professor b: and you and and it 's , uh , uh right , it 's only it 's only one wait a minute . this is what 's the dimensionality of the gaussian ? this is phd e: uh , it 's in after the mel filter bank . professor b: so this is twenty or something ? phd e: twenty - three . professor b: twenty ? so it 's yeah . so it 's actually forty numbers that you 're getting . yeah , maybe maybe you do n't have a phd e: uh , the original paper say that only one gaussian for the noise . professor b: well , yeah . but , i mean , no no paper is is a bible , phd e: yeah , maybe is n't the right thing . professor b: you know . this is this is , uh phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: the question is , um , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more so , suppose you did this is almost cheating . it certainly is n't real - time . but if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the vad and so forth or i i guess we 're gon na be given even better boundaries than that . and you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? that would be another question . phd e: maybe . professor b: so first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? and the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? um . also another question might be um , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector taylor series ? phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: yeah . it 's quite complicated . professor b: yeah , ok . no , i wo n't ask the next question then . phd e: oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that i am working with vts . professor b: yeah . no , it 's interesting . phd e: uh professor b: uh , w we have n't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: it 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . i do n't know . professor b: right . phd f: great . ok . well , i guess we 're about done . um , so some of the digit forms do n't have digits . uh , we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . but , um , i guess you 've got some . right , morgan ? professor b: i have some . phd f: so , why do n't you go ahead and start . and i think it 's just us down here at this end that have them . phd d: s phd e: um phd f: so . professor b: uh , ok . phd d: s so , we switch off with this phd f: whenever you 're ready . phd d: or n ? phd f: uh , leave it on , phd d: no . ok . phd f: uh , professor b: they prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information . phd f: yeah . phd d: ok . ok . phd f: ok . professor b: ok . s

the meeting consisted of participants giving an update on their projects . the team learned that the eurospeech paper was accepted . phd c told the team about strange activity in on-line normalization with regards to c-zero and c-one . grad a shared his work on quals and intention to start cheating experiments . grad g informed the team that phase normalization was coming along after a bug was fixed , but the results were still not great . finally , the team discussed weiner filtering for the aurora task and the mathematical formulation of the vts .

summarize the discussion on the eurospeech paper and on-line normalization </s> phd f: ok . professor b: uh . somebody else should run this . i 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , `` well , what do you think about this ? `` you wan na ? phd d: yeah . phd f: should we take turns ? you want me to run it today ? professor b: yeah . why do n't you run it today ? ok . phd f: ok . ok . um . let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . um , i guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . but aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up phd d: mmm . phd f: for today ? no ? ok . so why do n't we just around and people can give updates . phd e: oh . phd f: uh , do you want to start , stephane ? phd c: alright . um . well , the first thing maybe is that the p eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . um . yeah . phd f: this is what what do you , uh what 's in the paper there ? phd c: so it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the aurora . phd f: the one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: right , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: uh - huh . phd c: um yeah . so and the , fff { comment } comments seems from the reviewer are good . so . phd f: hmm . phd c: mmm yeah . phd f: where where 's it gon na be this year ? phd c: it 's , uh , aalborg in denmark . and it 's , phd f: oh , ok . phd c: yeah , september . phd f: mmm . phd c: mmm yeah . then , uh , whhh well , i 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . uh , i 've been trying different slightly slightly different approaches . um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . um , and so i have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . mmm . this actually do n't s does n't seem to help , although it does n't hurt . so . but well , both on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . well , they phd f: are the means pretty different for the two ? phd c: yeah . they can be very different . yeah . mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: so do you maybe make errors in different places ? different kinds of errors ? phd c: i did n't look , uh , more closely . um . it might be , yeah . mm - hmm . um . well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for c - zero and c - one than for the other coefficients . and yeah . and yeah , it the c - one is there are strange strange thing happening with c - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . and phd f: hmm . phd c: so when you look at the trajectory of c - one , it 's has a strange shape and i was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange c - ze c - one shape , uh , which can like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd f: oh . phd c: so which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we do n't frame ev uh , drop everything , but uh , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and mmm . { comment } but i still have to investigate further , i think . um , a third thing is , um , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , i try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . t t um yeah . and then this time constant increases and i have a threshold that professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , i keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when if the utterance is , uh , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: or mmm . uh , well , this does n't help neither , but this does n't hurt . so , well . it seems pretty phd f: was n't there some experiment you were gon na try where you did something differently for each , um , uh i do n't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , fft bin or someth there was something you were gon na uh , { comment } some parameter you were gon na vary depending on the frequency . i do n't know if that was phd c: i guess it was i do n't know . no . u maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different mfcc 's . phd f: for each , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . i i thought , morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . and then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said `` yeah , it does seem like , you know , c - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one `` or , uh , s i ca n't remember exactly what it was now . phd c: mmm . yeah . there uh , actually , yeah . s um , it 's very important to normalize c - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . and , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . and we i think , we kind of know that normalizing c - one does n't help with the current scheme . and and yeah . in my idea , i i was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . um yeah . but maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: um , i i really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . i know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , um , just seeing that each of these things did n't make things better may not be enough . it may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . and if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: hmm . phd c: alright . mmm . yeah . w um , so that 's it , i think , for the on - line normalization . um yeah . i 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , i think i yeah . well , what i did is t is to take , um to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold well , this for each mel band . then put a threshold that 's fifteen db below well , uh , a couple of db below this maximum , professor b: mm - hmm . mmm . phd c: and actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so i was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen db below the maximum energy of the utterance . and yeah . when we look at at the , um , mfcc that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . phd f: hmm . phd c: um . and yeah . and the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: hmm . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen db just fifteen db below the maximum energy . grad a: sorry . phd c: and at least phd f: so why does that m smooth things out ? i do n't i do n't understand that . professor b: well , there 's less difference . right ? phd c: it 's i think , it 's whitening this the portion that are more silent , professor b: cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: huh . oh , ok . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech do n't get much affected anyway by the other noise . and as the noise you add is the same is the shape , it 's also the same . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: so they have the trajectory are very , very similar . and and professor b: so , i mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you do n't do b do badly . the reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . even if the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . and and phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's , phd f: hmm . professor b: uh phd f: so would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: i think it 's i think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: it 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the aurora database . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: if if you compare th the two shut channels of speechdat - car during speech portion , it 's n n n the mfcc are not very different . they are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . and , professor b: yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: uh professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . phd c: ye professor b: right ? phd c: yeah . so it distort the speech . right . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . phd f: so performance went down ? phd c: no . it did n't . but phd f: oh . phd c: yeah . so , but in this case i i really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . i mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: uh , i mean , first place it 's fifteen db , uh , down across the utterance . and maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . secondly , you happened to pick fifteen db phd c: mmm . professor b: and maybe twenty 'd be better , phd c: yeah . professor b: or or twelve . phd c: yeah . right . phd f: so what was the what was the threshold part of it ? was the threshold , uh , how far down ? professor b: yeah . well , he yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . so he was looking he was looking at the peak value . phd f: uh - huh . professor b: right ? and then phd c: uh - huh . phd f: and and so what 's ho i do n't understand . how does it go ? if it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? or if it 's below s phd c: i systematically { comment } add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . phd f: oh , oh . i see . phd c: mmm . phd f: i see . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . yeah . which is not really noise , actually . it 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: to each of the mel filter bank . yeah . phd f: i see . phd c: so , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . i th professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . phd c: mm - hmm . um . yeah . so may well , the this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . and i do n't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or um professor b: or or not constant but but , uh , varying over time in fact is another way to go . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd c: yeah . um professor b: were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? i mean , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: um yeah . it was it was , uh , the same system . mm - hmm . professor b: ok . phd c: it was the same system . mmm . oh , yeah . a third thing is that , um , i play a little bit with the , um finding what was different between , um , and there were a couple of differences , like the lda filters were not the same . um , he had the france telecom blind equalization in the system . um , the number o of mfcc that was were used was different . you used thirteen and we used fifteen . well , a bunch of differences . and , um , actually the result that he he got were much better on ti - digits especially . so i 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . and it seems that the lda filter is is was hurting . um , so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , lda filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . and it makes a big difference , um , on ti - digits trained on clean . uh , if we use the the old lda filter , i mean the lda filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . but and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um . yeah . so now the results are more similar , and i do n't i will not , i think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of mfcc that we keep and other small things that we can i think optimize later on anyway . professor b: sure . but on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . right ? so if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , i mean which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to aurora ? are they they both ? well , i mean phd c: i think yeah . i think th th uh , the new system that i tested is , i guess , closer because it does n't have it have less of of france telecom stuff , phd d: you mean the phd c: i phd d: the whatever you , uh , tested with recently . right ? phd c: mmm ? yeah . phd d: yeah ? professor b: well , no , i i 'm i yeah , you 're trying to add in france telecom . phd c: but , we professor b: tell them about the rest of it . like you said the number of filters might be different or something . right ? or phd d: the number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: cep phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so , i mean , i think we 'd wan na standardize there , would n't we ? phd c: yeah , yeah . professor b: so , sh you guys should pick something phd d: yeah . professor b: and well , all th all three of you . phd d: yeah . phd c: i think we were gon na work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: uh , so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . phd c: so right . yeah . phd d: yeah , so yeah , so yep . phd c: but we will use the the lda filters f derived from clean speech . well , yeah , actually it 's it 's not the the lda filter . phd d: yeah , yeah . so phd c: it 's something that 's also short enough in in latency . phd d: yeah . well . phd c: so . phd d: yeah . so , we have n't w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients , phd c: yeah . phd d: not thirteen ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . well , uh , that 's something 's um . yeah . then professor b: i think as long as you guys agree on it , it does n't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: i think we have a maximum of sixty , uh , features that we 're allowed . so . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . ma - maybe we can i mean , at least , um , i 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once i have this { comment } noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: never tested it with the compensation , but without , uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: yeah . phd d: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen . phd c: yeah . and there is there is also this log energy versus c - zero . phd d: sorry , fifteen . yeah , the log energy versus c - zero . phd c: well . w w if if phd d: uh , that 's that 's the other thing . i mean , without noise compensation certainly c - zero is better than log energy . be - i mean , because the there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: you know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than c - zero . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not for i mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy i mean you get a better performance with log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , i do n't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for c - zero or log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: we can see that . phd c: yeah . phd d: hmm . phd c: mmm . phd f: so do you have more , stephane , or ? phd c: uh , that 's it , i think . mmm . phd f: do you have anything , morgan , or ? professor b: uh , no . i 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . so . phd f: how about you , barry ? grad a: um , still working on my my quals preparation stuff . um , so i 'm i 'm thinking about , um , starting some , uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that i want to classify . so , for example , um , if i know where voicing occurs and everything , um , i would do a phone um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the the , uh the perfect knowledge that i have about voicing . so , um , in particular i was thinking , um , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those lna files , and , um , setting to zero those probabilities that , um that these phones are not voicing . so say , like , i know this particular segment is voicing , um , i would say , uh , go into the corresponding lna file and zonk out the the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced , phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and then see what kinds of improvements i get . and so this would be a useful thing , um , to know in terms of , like , which which , um which of these categories are are good for , um , speech recognition . phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so , that 's i hope to get those , uh those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in july . phd f: so do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: yeah . i i i was thinking ok , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , um , phones . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? and then renormalize . phd f: mmm . grad a: right . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: cool . that will be really interesting to see , you know . so then you 're gon na feed the those into some standard recognizer . grad a: mm - hmm . phd f: uh , wh are you gon na do digits grad a: yeah , m um , well , i 'm gon na f work with timit phd f: or ? with timit . ok . grad a: timit uh , phone recognition with timit . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and , um phd f: oh , so then you 'll feed those sorry . so where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: oh . um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , icsi hybrid , um , recognizer . so maybe , um , chronos phd f: an - and you 're gon na the you 're gon na do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or phone recognition . right , right . phd f: ok , ok . i see . grad a: so . and , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where i can look at whole words . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and i would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , inter - phoneme events . so , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: segment . you know , so something that is transitional in nature . phd f: right . grad a: yeah . phd f: cool . great . grad a: so that 's that 's it . phd f: uh ok . grad a: yeah . phd f: um let 's see , i have n't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . i 've been focusing mainly on meeting recorder stuff . phd c: oh . phd f: so , um , i guess i 'll just pass it on to dave . grad g: uh , ok . well , in my lunch talk last week i i said i 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . it turned out there was a bug in my matlab code . so i tried it again , um , and , um , the results were were better . i got intelligible speech back . but they still were n't as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means . and also i 've been talking to , um , andreas and thilo about the , um , smartkom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the smartkom system . so i 'm gon na be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the smartkom system , i mean . and , um , one of the experiments we 're gon na do is , um , we 're gon na , um , train the a broadcast news net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . um , an - andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the smartkom system interaction is not gon na be exactly conversational . phd f: mm - hmm . grad g: s so actually i was wondering , how long does it take to train that broadcast news net ? professor b: the big one takes a while . yeah . that takes two , three weeks . grad g: two , three weeks . professor b: so but , you know , uh , you can get i do n't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . so , um , you can scale it down by i 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large broadcast news test set training set . i do n't know how much you 'd be training on . grad g: oh . professor b: the full ? grad g: ok . professor b: uh , i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: ok . professor b: and it 'd be nearly as good . so . grad g: ok . professor b: yeah . also , i guess we had we 've had these , uh , little di discussions i guess you ha have n't had a chance to work with it too much about about , uh uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . so , i mean , i i guess that was something i could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh and not not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . but it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . but grad g: and , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization so i did two experiments , and one is so , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . and so i thought at first , um , that , uh , what i should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . um , but i actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in matlab than i did not unwrapping at all . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . p so . grad g: and that 's all i have to say . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . so i 'm i 'm still hopeful that that i mean , we we do n't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . i mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it is n't the right thing to do . but , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . one one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh in rectangular kind of coordinates . and the other is to , uh , do a taylor series well . so you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . so then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . we do n't really know that . the other thing we talked a little bit about was taylor series expansion . and , um , uh , actually i was talking to dick karp about it a little bit , and and and , since i got thinking about it , and and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , i think , uh we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but i think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . and and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one it should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: ok . professor b: and so forth . so if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges . grad g: oh . professor b: so you have to do some scaling . but that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of k times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of k plus log of the complex number . grad g: oh . professor b: uh , so there 's grad g: ok . professor b: converges . but . phd f: hmm . ok . how about you , sunil ? phd d: so , um , i 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , wiener filtering for this aurora task . and , uh , i i actually thought it was it was doing fine when i tested it once . i it 's , like , using a small section of the code . and then i ran the whole recognition experiment with italian and i got , like , worse results than not using it . then i so , i 've been trying to find where the problem came from . and then it looks like i have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . and , ugh ! i i mean , i uh , it actually i it actually made the whole thing worse . i was looking at the spectrograms that i got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . like , when i professor b: i i missed the v i 'm sorry , i was i was distracted . i missed the very first sentence . so then , i 'm a little lost on the rest . phd d: oh , i mean professor b: what what what ? phd d: oh , yeah . i actually implemented the wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately . professor b: yeah , i see . oh , ok . phd d: and it it it gave , like i just got the signal out and it it was ok . so , i plugged it in somewhere and then i mean , it 's like i had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . and then i in that process i messed it up somewhere . professor b: ok . phd d: so . so , it was real i mean , i thought it was all fine and then i ran it , and i got something worse than not using it . so , i was like i 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: uh - huh . phd d: and it seems to be , like , somewhere professor b: ok . phd d: some silly stuff . and , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh well , hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then i was t talking wi professor b: right . yeah . as as he is wont to do . yeah . phd d: uh , yeah . so i was actually that day i was thinking about d doing something about the wiener filtering , and then carlos matter of stuff . and then he showed up and then i told him . and then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then that was something which came up . and then , um so , uh , i 'm actually , uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , w wiener filtering because that is a m modified wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the wiener filter . so instead of designing our own new wiener filters , i may just use one of those carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing the wiener filter professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: but @ @ s so , i do n't know , i was h i 'm i 'm i 'm , like that so that is the next thing . once this i once i sort this pro uh , problem out maybe i 'll just go into that also . and the the other thing was about the subspace approach . so , um , i , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . so just i just @ @ some small block of things which i needed to put together for the subspace approach . and i 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . and , um , uh yeah . i guess yep . i guess that 's it . and , uh , th th that 's where i am right now . so . phd f: oh . how about you , carmen ? phd e: mmm . i 'm working with vts . um , i do several experiment with the spanish database first , only with vts and nothing more . not vad , no lda , nothing more . phd f: what what is vts again ? phd d: new phd e: eh , vectorial taylor series . phd f: oh , yes . phd e: to remove the noise too . phd f: right , right . i think i ask you that every single meeting , do n't i ? phd e: what ? phd f: i ask you that question every meeting . phd e: yeah . professor b: so , that 'd be good from for analysis . phd e: if well professor b: it 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different different times . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: `` what is vts ? `` phd e: vts . i 'm sor well , um , the question is that well . remove some noise but not too much . and when we put the m m the , em , vad , the result is better . and we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without vts . no , no . professor b: i see . so that @ @ { comment } given that you 're using the vad also , the effect of the vts is not so far phd e: is not . professor b: do you how much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: pfft . i do n't know because phd c: are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: hhh , phd c: or ? or i ? phd e: uh , i do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . phd c: yeah . hmm . phd e: and also i did some experiment , uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . and , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different they all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: mmm . phd e: mmm . no , i do that two t did two time . phd c: but they use every all use a different one . professor b: i have an idea . if if , uh , uh , y you 're right . i mean , each of these require this . um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? s so , e um , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: first place , i mean even if ultimately we would n't be given the boundaries , uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . i mean , how much is the poor you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um . so maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . phd e: yeah . another thing is the , em the codebook , the initial codebook . that maybe , well , it 's too clean and professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: cuz it 's a i do n't know . the methods if you want , you c i can say something about the method . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . in the because it 's a little bit different of the other method . well , we have if this if this is the noise signal , uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . now , we have something like this . and the idea of these methods is to n given a , um professor b: phd e: how do you say ? i will read because it 's better for my english . i i given is the estimate of the pdf of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . and the clean speech the statistic of the clean speech is from a codebook . mmm ? this is the idea . well , like , this relation is not linear . the methods propose to develop this in a vectorial taylor series approximation . professor b: i i 'm actually just confused about the equations you have up there . so , uh , the top equation is is is phd e: no , this in the it 's this is the log domain . i i must to say that . professor b: which is which is the log domain ? phd e: is the t is egual { comment } is equal to , uh , log of professor b: and but y is what ? y of the spectrum phd e: uh , this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . professor b: no , no . the top y is what ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: is that power spectrum ? phd e: uh , this is the noisy speech . phd c: p s this professor b: no , is that power spectrum ? is it ? phd c: yeah . i guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech . phd e: yeah . it 's the power spectrum . professor b: oh , ok . phd c: yeah . and professor b: so that 's uh phd e: this is the noisy yeah , it 's professor b: ok . phd e: of the value professor b: yeah , ok . so this it 's the magnitude squared or something . phd e: yeah . professor b: ok , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on t , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o yeah . it 's the same . professor b: you just mean the log of the of the one up above . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , uh , so that is x times , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , phd d: one one plus n by x . phd e: yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: but , n well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: x times one plus , uh , n uh , n n n minus x ? phd e: the yeah . professor b: and then , uh so that 's log of x plus log of one plus , uh phd e: and the noise signal . professor b: well . is that right ? log of phd d: one plus n by x . phd e: well , mmm professor b: i actually do n't see how you get that . uh . phd e: well , if we apply the log , we have e is n phd c: mmm . phd d: uh , and phd e: uh , log e is equal , oh , to log of x plus n . professor b: yeah . phd e: and , well , phd d: and , log of phd e: uh , we can say that e is equal to log of , um , exponential of x plus exponential of n . professor b: uh phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: well , if e restricts it is y phd e: well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . well , we have that , um we have first that , for example , x is equal , uh well . this is the frequency domain professor b: yeah . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of x omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . no ? no ? oh , maybe it 's i am i 'm problem . professor b: yeah . i mean , just never mind what they are . uh , it 's just if x and n are variables right ? phd d: what is , uh ? professor b: the the the log of x plus n is not the same as the log of e to the x plus e to the n . phd e: yeah . but this i well , i do n't well , uh , professor b: maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but i i do n't know . phd e: i i can do this incorrectly . well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , uh phd d: the log the taylor series expansion for log one plus n by x is professor b: ok . phd c: is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is x professor b: i i phd d: yeah , the first one . phd c: yeah , i guess . phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . yeah . cuz it does n't just follow what 's there . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: it has to be some , uh , taylor series phd d: y yeah . if if you take log x into log one plus n by x , and then expand the log one plus n by x into taylor series phd c: yeah . phd e: now , this is the and then phd c: yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: not exactly . professor b: no . phd e: no , no , no . it 's not the first space . well , we have pfft , uh , em well , we can put that x is equal i is equal to log of , uh , mmm professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: mmm . phd e: well , we can put , uh , this ? phd d: no . professor b: that i mean , that the f top one does not imply the second one . because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: the top ? professor b: i mean , as phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: but we can uh , we we know that , for example , the log of e plus b is equal to log of e plus log to b . professor b: right . phd e: and we can say here , it i professor b: right . so you could s phd c: what is that ? phd e: and we can , uh , put this inside . professor b: yeah . phd e: and then we can , uh , professor b: n no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: yeah . professor b: i do n't see how you get the second expression from the top one . phd d: uh . professor b: the i mean , just more generally here , if you say `` log of , um , a plus b `` , the log of log of a plus b is not or a plus b is not the , um , log of e to the a plus e to the b . phd e: no , no , no , no , no , no , no . this not . professor b: right ? and that 's what you seem to be saying . phd e: no . no . it 's not . but this is the same oh . professor b: right ? cuz you cuz you up here you have the a plus b phd e: no . i say if i apply log , i have , uh , log of e is equal to log of , uh in this side , is equal to log of x professor b: plus n . phd e: plus n . professor b: right . phd e: no ? professor b: right . phd e: right . professor b: and then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: this is right . and then if i apply exponential , to have here e professor b: look . ok , so let 's i mean , c equals a plus b , phd c: it 's log o of capital y . yeah , right . professor b: and then phd c: capital y . phd e: yeah . phd d: x . x . this is x , inside . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd e: we have this , no ? professor b: yeah . that one 's right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: one and phd e: s uh , i th we can put here the set transformation . professor b: oh . i see . phd e: no ? professor b: i see . ok , i understand now . alright , thanks . phd e: yeah . in this case , well , we can put here a y . professor b: ok . so , yeah . it 's just by definition that the individual that the , uh so , capital x is by definition the same as e to the little x because she 's saying that the little x is is the , uh is the log . alright . phd e: now we can put this . professor b: yeah . phd e: no ? professor b: alright . phd e: and here we can multiply by x . professor b: i think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: oh , yes . professor b: so you know which is which . but i i under i understand what you mean now . phd e: yeah , yeah . that 's true . that 's true . professor b: ok . phd e: but this this is correct ? professor b: sure . phd e: and now i can do it , uh pfff ! i can put log of ex plus log professor b: oh . yes . i understand now . and that 's where it comes from . phd e: and this is professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . right . professor b: right . phd e: now it 's correct . professor b: right . ok . thanks . phd e: well . the idea well , we have fixed this equa professor b: ok . so now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , taylor series expansion of this . phd e: yeah . this is another linear relation that this to develop this in vector s taylor series . phd c: yeah , sure . professor b: right . phd e: mm - hmm . and for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um est estimate a pdf for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . mmm ? and when w the way to obtain the pdf for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and then when we have a expression , uh , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . this only that . but the idea is that phd c: and the the model of clean speech is a codebook . right ? phd e: u yeah . we have our codebook with different density gaussian . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: we can expre we can put that the pdf { comment } for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: yeah . phd e: phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: yeah . phd e: i i need to s professor b: yeah . phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: cuz i think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , um , you do n't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not . phd e: yeah . i the clean speech the codebook for clean speech , i am using timit . and i have now , uh , sixty - four gaus - gaussian . professor b: uh - huh . and what are you using for the noisy ? y y doing that strictly phd e: of the noise i estimate the noises wi professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: well , for the noises i only use one gaussian . professor b: and and you and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: hmm . phd e: uh , yes . the first experiment that i do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: yeah . phd e: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is the first experiment . professor b: yeah . phd e: and i fix this for all the all the sentences . uh , because well , the vts methods in fact the first thing that i do is to to obtain , uh , an expression for e probability e expression of of e . that mean that the vts mmm , with the vts we obtain , uh well , we we obtain the means for each gaussian { comment } and the variance . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is one . eh , this is the composition of the dictionary . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this one thing . and the other thing that this with these methods is to , uh , obtain to calculate this value . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: because we can write uh , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: this is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of e minus a function that conditional to e to the t to the noise signal . well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . give px and , uh , p the noise . phd d: x k c noise . professor b: mmm . phd e: and i can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus well , i put before this name , uh and i can calculate this . professor b: what is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: uh , this is the gaussian . professor b: no , no . i 'm sorry . in in the one you pointed at . what 's that variable ? phd e: v uh , this is the phd d: weak . so probably it it would do that . phd e: like this , phd c: it 's one mixture of the model . right ? phd e: but conditional . no , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . it 's modify . uh , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each gaussian . professor b: ok . phd e: no . and now , this weight is different now professor b: yes . phd e: because it 's conditional . and this i need to to calcu i know this professor b: uh - huh . phd e: and i know this because this is from the dictionary that you have . professor b: uh - huh . phd e: i need to calculate this . professor b: yes . phd e: and for calculate this , i have an i i can develop an expression that is phd d: it 's overlapping . phd e: that . i can calculate i can i calculated this value , uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that i calculated before with the vts approximation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and well , normalizing . and i know everything . uh , with the , nnn when i develop this in s taylor taylor series , i ca n't , um , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . now . and this is fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: if i never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that i need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: so , i 'm i 'm not following this perfectly but , um , i are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? and never change throughout anything else ? phd e: yeah . never cha this is one of the approximations that i am doing . professor b: per per per utterance , or per ? phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: per utterance . ok . phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: so it 's done it 's done new for each new utterance . phd e: and th professor b: so this changes the whole mapping for every utterance . phd e: yeah . it 's not yeah . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , the dictionary . professor b: ok . phd e: and the other estimation is when i do the uh on - line estimation , i change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: yeah ? phd e: each time that i detect noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i do it uh again this develop . estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . and with th with this new s new mean and variance i estimate again this . professor b: so you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? uh , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: um , no , no , no . it 's not completely no , it 's i am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . professor b: ok . now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? yeah . i mean , i know you do n't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , uh , um phd e: i estimate mean and variance for each one of the gaussian of the codebook . professor b: no , i 'm talking about the noise . phd e: oh , professor b: there 's only one gaussian . phd e: um . well , only one i am only using only one . professor b: right . phd e: i do n't know i professor b: and you and and it 's , uh , uh right , it 's only it 's only one wait a minute . this is what 's the dimensionality of the gaussian ? this is phd e: uh , it 's in after the mel filter bank . professor b: so this is twenty or something ? phd e: twenty - three . professor b: twenty ? so it 's yeah . so it 's actually forty numbers that you 're getting . yeah , maybe maybe you do n't have a phd e: uh , the original paper say that only one gaussian for the noise . professor b: well , yeah . but , i mean , no no paper is is a bible , phd e: yeah , maybe is n't the right thing . professor b: you know . this is this is , uh phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: the question is , um , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more so , suppose you did this is almost cheating . it certainly is n't real - time . but if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the vad and so forth or i i guess we 're gon na be given even better boundaries than that . and you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? that would be another question . phd e: maybe . professor b: so first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? and the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? um . also another question might be um , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector taylor series ? phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: yeah . it 's quite complicated . professor b: yeah , ok . no , i wo n't ask the next question then . phd e: oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that i am working with vts . professor b: yeah . no , it 's interesting . phd e: uh professor b: uh , w we have n't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: it 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . i do n't know . professor b: right . phd f: great . ok . well , i guess we 're about done . um , so some of the digit forms do n't have digits . uh , we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . but , um , i guess you 've got some . right , morgan ? professor b: i have some . phd f: so , why do n't you go ahead and start . and i think it 's just us down here at this end that have them . phd d: s phd e: um phd f: so . professor b: uh , ok . phd d: s so , we switch off with this phd f: whenever you 're ready . phd d: or n ? phd f: uh , leave it on , phd d: no . ok . phd f: uh , professor b: they prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information . phd f: yeah . phd d: ok . ok . phd f: ok . professor b: ok . s

phd c informed the team that the eurospeech paper had been accepted and the conference would take place in aalborg denmark in september . the team was making progress on on-line normalization , taking two approaches .

what did phd c think about on-line normalization ? </s> phd f: ok . professor b: uh . somebody else should run this . i 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , `` well , what do you think about this ? `` you wan na ? phd d: yeah . phd f: should we take turns ? you want me to run it today ? professor b: yeah . why do n't you run it today ? ok . phd f: ok . ok . um . let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . um , i guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . but aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up phd d: mmm . phd f: for today ? no ? ok . so why do n't we just around and people can give updates . phd e: oh . phd f: uh , do you want to start , stephane ? phd c: alright . um . well , the first thing maybe is that the p eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . um . yeah . phd f: this is what what do you , uh what 's in the paper there ? phd c: so it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the aurora . phd f: the one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: right , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: uh - huh . phd c: um yeah . so and the , fff { comment } comments seems from the reviewer are good . so . phd f: hmm . phd c: mmm yeah . phd f: where where 's it gon na be this year ? phd c: it 's , uh , aalborg in denmark . and it 's , phd f: oh , ok . phd c: yeah , september . phd f: mmm . phd c: mmm yeah . then , uh , whhh well , i 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . uh , i 've been trying different slightly slightly different approaches . um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . um , and so i have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . mmm . this actually do n't s does n't seem to help , although it does n't hurt . so . but well , both on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . well , they phd f: are the means pretty different for the two ? phd c: yeah . they can be very different . yeah . mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: so do you maybe make errors in different places ? different kinds of errors ? phd c: i did n't look , uh , more closely . um . it might be , yeah . mm - hmm . um . well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for c - zero and c - one than for the other coefficients . and yeah . and yeah , it the c - one is there are strange strange thing happening with c - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . and phd f: hmm . phd c: so when you look at the trajectory of c - one , it 's has a strange shape and i was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange c - ze c - one shape , uh , which can like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd f: oh . phd c: so which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we do n't frame ev uh , drop everything , but uh , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and mmm . { comment } but i still have to investigate further , i think . um , a third thing is , um , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , i try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . t t um yeah . and then this time constant increases and i have a threshold that professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , i keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when if the utterance is , uh , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: or mmm . uh , well , this does n't help neither , but this does n't hurt . so , well . it seems pretty phd f: was n't there some experiment you were gon na try where you did something differently for each , um , uh i do n't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , fft bin or someth there was something you were gon na uh , { comment } some parameter you were gon na vary depending on the frequency . i do n't know if that was phd c: i guess it was i do n't know . no . u maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different mfcc 's . phd f: for each , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . i i thought , morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . and then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said `` yeah , it does seem like , you know , c - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one `` or , uh , s i ca n't remember exactly what it was now . phd c: mmm . yeah . there uh , actually , yeah . s um , it 's very important to normalize c - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . and , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . and we i think , we kind of know that normalizing c - one does n't help with the current scheme . and and yeah . in my idea , i i was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . um yeah . but maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: um , i i really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . i know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , um , just seeing that each of these things did n't make things better may not be enough . it may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . and if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: hmm . phd c: alright . mmm . yeah . w um , so that 's it , i think , for the on - line normalization . um yeah . i 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , i think i yeah . well , what i did is t is to take , um to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold well , this for each mel band . then put a threshold that 's fifteen db below well , uh , a couple of db below this maximum , professor b: mm - hmm . mmm . phd c: and actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so i was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen db below the maximum energy of the utterance . and yeah . when we look at at the , um , mfcc that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . phd f: hmm . phd c: um . and yeah . and the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: hmm . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen db just fifteen db below the maximum energy . grad a: sorry . phd c: and at least phd f: so why does that m smooth things out ? i do n't i do n't understand that . professor b: well , there 's less difference . right ? phd c: it 's i think , it 's whitening this the portion that are more silent , professor b: cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: huh . oh , ok . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech do n't get much affected anyway by the other noise . and as the noise you add is the same is the shape , it 's also the same . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: so they have the trajectory are very , very similar . and and professor b: so , i mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you do n't do b do badly . the reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . even if the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . and and phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's , phd f: hmm . professor b: uh phd f: so would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: i think it 's i think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: it 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the aurora database . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: if if you compare th the two shut channels of speechdat - car during speech portion , it 's n n n the mfcc are not very different . they are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . and , professor b: yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: uh professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . phd c: ye professor b: right ? phd c: yeah . so it distort the speech . right . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . phd f: so performance went down ? phd c: no . it did n't . but phd f: oh . phd c: yeah . so , but in this case i i really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . i mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: uh , i mean , first place it 's fifteen db , uh , down across the utterance . and maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . secondly , you happened to pick fifteen db phd c: mmm . professor b: and maybe twenty 'd be better , phd c: yeah . professor b: or or twelve . phd c: yeah . right . phd f: so what was the what was the threshold part of it ? was the threshold , uh , how far down ? professor b: yeah . well , he yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . so he was looking he was looking at the peak value . phd f: uh - huh . professor b: right ? and then phd c: uh - huh . phd f: and and so what 's ho i do n't understand . how does it go ? if it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? or if it 's below s phd c: i systematically { comment } add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . phd f: oh , oh . i see . phd c: mmm . phd f: i see . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . yeah . which is not really noise , actually . it 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: to each of the mel filter bank . yeah . phd f: i see . phd c: so , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . i th professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . phd c: mm - hmm . um . yeah . so may well , the this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . and i do n't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or um professor b: or or not constant but but , uh , varying over time in fact is another way to go . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd c: yeah . um professor b: were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? i mean , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: um yeah . it was it was , uh , the same system . mm - hmm . professor b: ok . phd c: it was the same system . mmm . oh , yeah . a third thing is that , um , i play a little bit with the , um finding what was different between , um , and there were a couple of differences , like the lda filters were not the same . um , he had the france telecom blind equalization in the system . um , the number o of mfcc that was were used was different . you used thirteen and we used fifteen . well , a bunch of differences . and , um , actually the result that he he got were much better on ti - digits especially . so i 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . and it seems that the lda filter is is was hurting . um , so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , lda filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . and it makes a big difference , um , on ti - digits trained on clean . uh , if we use the the old lda filter , i mean the lda filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . but and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um . yeah . so now the results are more similar , and i do n't i will not , i think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of mfcc that we keep and other small things that we can i think optimize later on anyway . professor b: sure . but on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . right ? so if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , i mean which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to aurora ? are they they both ? well , i mean phd c: i think yeah . i think th th uh , the new system that i tested is , i guess , closer because it does n't have it have less of of france telecom stuff , phd d: you mean the phd c: i phd d: the whatever you , uh , tested with recently . right ? phd c: mmm ? yeah . phd d: yeah ? professor b: well , no , i i 'm i yeah , you 're trying to add in france telecom . phd c: but , we professor b: tell them about the rest of it . like you said the number of filters might be different or something . right ? or phd d: the number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: cep phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so , i mean , i think we 'd wan na standardize there , would n't we ? phd c: yeah , yeah . professor b: so , sh you guys should pick something phd d: yeah . professor b: and well , all th all three of you . phd d: yeah . phd c: i think we were gon na work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: uh , so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . phd c: so right . yeah . phd d: yeah , so yeah , so yep . phd c: but we will use the the lda filters f derived from clean speech . well , yeah , actually it 's it 's not the the lda filter . phd d: yeah , yeah . so phd c: it 's something that 's also short enough in in latency . phd d: yeah . well . phd c: so . phd d: yeah . so , we have n't w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients , phd c: yeah . phd d: not thirteen ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . well , uh , that 's something 's um . yeah . then professor b: i think as long as you guys agree on it , it does n't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: i think we have a maximum of sixty , uh , features that we 're allowed . so . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . ma - maybe we can i mean , at least , um , i 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once i have this { comment } noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: never tested it with the compensation , but without , uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: yeah . phd d: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen . phd c: yeah . and there is there is also this log energy versus c - zero . phd d: sorry , fifteen . yeah , the log energy versus c - zero . phd c: well . w w if if phd d: uh , that 's that 's the other thing . i mean , without noise compensation certainly c - zero is better than log energy . be - i mean , because the there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: you know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than c - zero . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not for i mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy i mean you get a better performance with log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , i do n't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for c - zero or log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: we can see that . phd c: yeah . phd d: hmm . phd c: mmm . phd f: so do you have more , stephane , or ? phd c: uh , that 's it , i think . mmm . phd f: do you have anything , morgan , or ? professor b: uh , no . i 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . so . phd f: how about you , barry ? grad a: um , still working on my my quals preparation stuff . um , so i 'm i 'm thinking about , um , starting some , uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that i want to classify . so , for example , um , if i know where voicing occurs and everything , um , i would do a phone um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the the , uh the perfect knowledge that i have about voicing . so , um , in particular i was thinking , um , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those lna files , and , um , setting to zero those probabilities that , um that these phones are not voicing . so say , like , i know this particular segment is voicing , um , i would say , uh , go into the corresponding lna file and zonk out the the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced , phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and then see what kinds of improvements i get . and so this would be a useful thing , um , to know in terms of , like , which which , um which of these categories are are good for , um , speech recognition . phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so , that 's i hope to get those , uh those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in july . phd f: so do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: yeah . i i i was thinking ok , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , um , phones . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? and then renormalize . phd f: mmm . grad a: right . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: cool . that will be really interesting to see , you know . so then you 're gon na feed the those into some standard recognizer . grad a: mm - hmm . phd f: uh , wh are you gon na do digits grad a: yeah , m um , well , i 'm gon na f work with timit phd f: or ? with timit . ok . grad a: timit uh , phone recognition with timit . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and , um phd f: oh , so then you 'll feed those sorry . so where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: oh . um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , icsi hybrid , um , recognizer . so maybe , um , chronos phd f: an - and you 're gon na the you 're gon na do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or phone recognition . right , right . phd f: ok , ok . i see . grad a: so . and , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where i can look at whole words . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and i would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , inter - phoneme events . so , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: segment . you know , so something that is transitional in nature . phd f: right . grad a: yeah . phd f: cool . great . grad a: so that 's that 's it . phd f: uh ok . grad a: yeah . phd f: um let 's see , i have n't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . i 've been focusing mainly on meeting recorder stuff . phd c: oh . phd f: so , um , i guess i 'll just pass it on to dave . grad g: uh , ok . well , in my lunch talk last week i i said i 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . it turned out there was a bug in my matlab code . so i tried it again , um , and , um , the results were were better . i got intelligible speech back . but they still were n't as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means . and also i 've been talking to , um , andreas and thilo about the , um , smartkom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the smartkom system . so i 'm gon na be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the smartkom system , i mean . and , um , one of the experiments we 're gon na do is , um , we 're gon na , um , train the a broadcast news net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . um , an - andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the smartkom system interaction is not gon na be exactly conversational . phd f: mm - hmm . grad g: s so actually i was wondering , how long does it take to train that broadcast news net ? professor b: the big one takes a while . yeah . that takes two , three weeks . grad g: two , three weeks . professor b: so but , you know , uh , you can get i do n't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . so , um , you can scale it down by i 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large broadcast news test set training set . i do n't know how much you 'd be training on . grad g: oh . professor b: the full ? grad g: ok . professor b: uh , i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: ok . professor b: and it 'd be nearly as good . so . grad g: ok . professor b: yeah . also , i guess we had we 've had these , uh , little di discussions i guess you ha have n't had a chance to work with it too much about about , uh uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . so , i mean , i i guess that was something i could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh and not not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . but it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . but grad g: and , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization so i did two experiments , and one is so , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . and so i thought at first , um , that , uh , what i should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . um , but i actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in matlab than i did not unwrapping at all . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . p so . grad g: and that 's all i have to say . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . so i 'm i 'm still hopeful that that i mean , we we do n't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . i mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it is n't the right thing to do . but , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . one one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh in rectangular kind of coordinates . and the other is to , uh , do a taylor series well . so you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . so then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . we do n't really know that . the other thing we talked a little bit about was taylor series expansion . and , um , uh , actually i was talking to dick karp about it a little bit , and and and , since i got thinking about it , and and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , i think , uh we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but i think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . and and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one it should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: ok . professor b: and so forth . so if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges . grad g: oh . professor b: so you have to do some scaling . but that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of k times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of k plus log of the complex number . grad g: oh . professor b: uh , so there 's grad g: ok . professor b: converges . but . phd f: hmm . ok . how about you , sunil ? phd d: so , um , i 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , wiener filtering for this aurora task . and , uh , i i actually thought it was it was doing fine when i tested it once . i it 's , like , using a small section of the code . and then i ran the whole recognition experiment with italian and i got , like , worse results than not using it . then i so , i 've been trying to find where the problem came from . and then it looks like i have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . and , ugh ! i i mean , i uh , it actually i it actually made the whole thing worse . i was looking at the spectrograms that i got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . like , when i professor b: i i missed the v i 'm sorry , i was i was distracted . i missed the very first sentence . so then , i 'm a little lost on the rest . phd d: oh , i mean professor b: what what what ? phd d: oh , yeah . i actually implemented the wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately . professor b: yeah , i see . oh , ok . phd d: and it it it gave , like i just got the signal out and it it was ok . so , i plugged it in somewhere and then i mean , it 's like i had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . and then i in that process i messed it up somewhere . professor b: ok . phd d: so . so , it was real i mean , i thought it was all fine and then i ran it , and i got something worse than not using it . so , i was like i 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: uh - huh . phd d: and it seems to be , like , somewhere professor b: ok . phd d: some silly stuff . and , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh well , hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then i was t talking wi professor b: right . yeah . as as he is wont to do . yeah . phd d: uh , yeah . so i was actually that day i was thinking about d doing something about the wiener filtering , and then carlos matter of stuff . and then he showed up and then i told him . and then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then that was something which came up . and then , um so , uh , i 'm actually , uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , w wiener filtering because that is a m modified wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the wiener filter . so instead of designing our own new wiener filters , i may just use one of those carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing the wiener filter professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: but @ @ s so , i do n't know , i was h i 'm i 'm i 'm , like that so that is the next thing . once this i once i sort this pro uh , problem out maybe i 'll just go into that also . and the the other thing was about the subspace approach . so , um , i , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . so just i just @ @ some small block of things which i needed to put together for the subspace approach . and i 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . and , um , uh yeah . i guess yep . i guess that 's it . and , uh , th th that 's where i am right now . so . phd f: oh . how about you , carmen ? phd e: mmm . i 'm working with vts . um , i do several experiment with the spanish database first , only with vts and nothing more . not vad , no lda , nothing more . phd f: what what is vts again ? phd d: new phd e: eh , vectorial taylor series . phd f: oh , yes . phd e: to remove the noise too . phd f: right , right . i think i ask you that every single meeting , do n't i ? phd e: what ? phd f: i ask you that question every meeting . phd e: yeah . professor b: so , that 'd be good from for analysis . phd e: if well professor b: it 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different different times . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: `` what is vts ? `` phd e: vts . i 'm sor well , um , the question is that well . remove some noise but not too much . and when we put the m m the , em , vad , the result is better . and we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without vts . no , no . professor b: i see . so that @ @ { comment } given that you 're using the vad also , the effect of the vts is not so far phd e: is not . professor b: do you how much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: pfft . i do n't know because phd c: are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: hhh , phd c: or ? or i ? phd e: uh , i do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . phd c: yeah . hmm . phd e: and also i did some experiment , uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . and , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different they all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: mmm . phd e: mmm . no , i do that two t did two time . phd c: but they use every all use a different one . professor b: i have an idea . if if , uh , uh , y you 're right . i mean , each of these require this . um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? s so , e um , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: first place , i mean even if ultimately we would n't be given the boundaries , uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . i mean , how much is the poor you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um . so maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . phd e: yeah . another thing is the , em the codebook , the initial codebook . that maybe , well , it 's too clean and professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: cuz it 's a i do n't know . the methods if you want , you c i can say something about the method . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . in the because it 's a little bit different of the other method . well , we have if this if this is the noise signal , uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . now , we have something like this . and the idea of these methods is to n given a , um professor b: phd e: how do you say ? i will read because it 's better for my english . i i given is the estimate of the pdf of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . and the clean speech the statistic of the clean speech is from a codebook . mmm ? this is the idea . well , like , this relation is not linear . the methods propose to develop this in a vectorial taylor series approximation . professor b: i i 'm actually just confused about the equations you have up there . so , uh , the top equation is is is phd e: no , this in the it 's this is the log domain . i i must to say that . professor b: which is which is the log domain ? phd e: is the t is egual { comment } is equal to , uh , log of professor b: and but y is what ? y of the spectrum phd e: uh , this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . professor b: no , no . the top y is what ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: is that power spectrum ? phd e: uh , this is the noisy speech . phd c: p s this professor b: no , is that power spectrum ? is it ? phd c: yeah . i guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech . phd e: yeah . it 's the power spectrum . professor b: oh , ok . phd c: yeah . and professor b: so that 's uh phd e: this is the noisy yeah , it 's professor b: ok . phd e: of the value professor b: yeah , ok . so this it 's the magnitude squared or something . phd e: yeah . professor b: ok , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on t , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o yeah . it 's the same . professor b: you just mean the log of the of the one up above . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , uh , so that is x times , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , phd d: one one plus n by x . phd e: yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: but , n well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: x times one plus , uh , n uh , n n n minus x ? phd e: the yeah . professor b: and then , uh so that 's log of x plus log of one plus , uh phd e: and the noise signal . professor b: well . is that right ? log of phd d: one plus n by x . phd e: well , mmm professor b: i actually do n't see how you get that . uh . phd e: well , if we apply the log , we have e is n phd c: mmm . phd d: uh , and phd e: uh , log e is equal , oh , to log of x plus n . professor b: yeah . phd e: and , well , phd d: and , log of phd e: uh , we can say that e is equal to log of , um , exponential of x plus exponential of n . professor b: uh phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: well , if e restricts it is y phd e: well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . well , we have that , um we have first that , for example , x is equal , uh well . this is the frequency domain professor b: yeah . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of x omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . no ? no ? oh , maybe it 's i am i 'm problem . professor b: yeah . i mean , just never mind what they are . uh , it 's just if x and n are variables right ? phd d: what is , uh ? professor b: the the the log of x plus n is not the same as the log of e to the x plus e to the n . phd e: yeah . but this i well , i do n't well , uh , professor b: maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but i i do n't know . phd e: i i can do this incorrectly . well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , uh phd d: the log the taylor series expansion for log one plus n by x is professor b: ok . phd c: is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is x professor b: i i phd d: yeah , the first one . phd c: yeah , i guess . phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . yeah . cuz it does n't just follow what 's there . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: it has to be some , uh , taylor series phd d: y yeah . if if you take log x into log one plus n by x , and then expand the log one plus n by x into taylor series phd c: yeah . phd e: now , this is the and then phd c: yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: not exactly . professor b: no . phd e: no , no , no . it 's not the first space . well , we have pfft , uh , em well , we can put that x is equal i is equal to log of , uh , mmm professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: mmm . phd e: well , we can put , uh , this ? phd d: no . professor b: that i mean , that the f top one does not imply the second one . because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: the top ? professor b: i mean , as phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: but we can uh , we we know that , for example , the log of e plus b is equal to log of e plus log to b . professor b: right . phd e: and we can say here , it i professor b: right . so you could s phd c: what is that ? phd e: and we can , uh , put this inside . professor b: yeah . phd e: and then we can , uh , professor b: n no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: yeah . professor b: i do n't see how you get the second expression from the top one . phd d: uh . professor b: the i mean , just more generally here , if you say `` log of , um , a plus b `` , the log of log of a plus b is not or a plus b is not the , um , log of e to the a plus e to the b . phd e: no , no , no , no , no , no , no . this not . professor b: right ? and that 's what you seem to be saying . phd e: no . no . it 's not . but this is the same oh . professor b: right ? cuz you cuz you up here you have the a plus b phd e: no . i say if i apply log , i have , uh , log of e is equal to log of , uh in this side , is equal to log of x professor b: plus n . phd e: plus n . professor b: right . phd e: no ? professor b: right . phd e: right . professor b: and then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: this is right . and then if i apply exponential , to have here e professor b: look . ok , so let 's i mean , c equals a plus b , phd c: it 's log o of capital y . yeah , right . professor b: and then phd c: capital y . phd e: yeah . phd d: x . x . this is x , inside . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd e: we have this , no ? professor b: yeah . that one 's right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: one and phd e: s uh , i th we can put here the set transformation . professor b: oh . i see . phd e: no ? professor b: i see . ok , i understand now . alright , thanks . phd e: yeah . in this case , well , we can put here a y . professor b: ok . so , yeah . it 's just by definition that the individual that the , uh so , capital x is by definition the same as e to the little x because she 's saying that the little x is is the , uh is the log . alright . phd e: now we can put this . professor b: yeah . phd e: no ? professor b: alright . phd e: and here we can multiply by x . professor b: i think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: oh , yes . professor b: so you know which is which . but i i under i understand what you mean now . phd e: yeah , yeah . that 's true . that 's true . professor b: ok . phd e: but this this is correct ? professor b: sure . phd e: and now i can do it , uh pfff ! i can put log of ex plus log professor b: oh . yes . i understand now . and that 's where it comes from . phd e: and this is professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . right . professor b: right . phd e: now it 's correct . professor b: right . ok . thanks . phd e: well . the idea well , we have fixed this equa professor b: ok . so now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , taylor series expansion of this . phd e: yeah . this is another linear relation that this to develop this in vector s taylor series . phd c: yeah , sure . professor b: right . phd e: mm - hmm . and for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um est estimate a pdf for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . mmm ? and when w the way to obtain the pdf for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and then when we have a expression , uh , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . this only that . but the idea is that phd c: and the the model of clean speech is a codebook . right ? phd e: u yeah . we have our codebook with different density gaussian . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: we can expre we can put that the pdf { comment } for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: yeah . phd e: phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: yeah . phd e: i i need to s professor b: yeah . phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: cuz i think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , um , you do n't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not . phd e: yeah . i the clean speech the codebook for clean speech , i am using timit . and i have now , uh , sixty - four gaus - gaussian . professor b: uh - huh . and what are you using for the noisy ? y y doing that strictly phd e: of the noise i estimate the noises wi professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: well , for the noises i only use one gaussian . professor b: and and you and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: hmm . phd e: uh , yes . the first experiment that i do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: yeah . phd e: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is the first experiment . professor b: yeah . phd e: and i fix this for all the all the sentences . uh , because well , the vts methods in fact the first thing that i do is to to obtain , uh , an expression for e probability e expression of of e . that mean that the vts mmm , with the vts we obtain , uh well , we we obtain the means for each gaussian { comment } and the variance . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is one . eh , this is the composition of the dictionary . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this one thing . and the other thing that this with these methods is to , uh , obtain to calculate this value . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: because we can write uh , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: this is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of e minus a function that conditional to e to the t to the noise signal . well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . give px and , uh , p the noise . phd d: x k c noise . professor b: mmm . phd e: and i can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus well , i put before this name , uh and i can calculate this . professor b: what is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: uh , this is the gaussian . professor b: no , no . i 'm sorry . in in the one you pointed at . what 's that variable ? phd e: v uh , this is the phd d: weak . so probably it it would do that . phd e: like this , phd c: it 's one mixture of the model . right ? phd e: but conditional . no , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . it 's modify . uh , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each gaussian . professor b: ok . phd e: no . and now , this weight is different now professor b: yes . phd e: because it 's conditional . and this i need to to calcu i know this professor b: uh - huh . phd e: and i know this because this is from the dictionary that you have . professor b: uh - huh . phd e: i need to calculate this . professor b: yes . phd e: and for calculate this , i have an i i can develop an expression that is phd d: it 's overlapping . phd e: that . i can calculate i can i calculated this value , uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that i calculated before with the vts approximation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and well , normalizing . and i know everything . uh , with the , nnn when i develop this in s taylor taylor series , i ca n't , um , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . now . and this is fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: if i never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that i need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: so , i 'm i 'm not following this perfectly but , um , i are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? and never change throughout anything else ? phd e: yeah . never cha this is one of the approximations that i am doing . professor b: per per per utterance , or per ? phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: per utterance . ok . phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: so it 's done it 's done new for each new utterance . phd e: and th professor b: so this changes the whole mapping for every utterance . phd e: yeah . it 's not yeah . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , the dictionary . professor b: ok . phd e: and the other estimation is when i do the uh on - line estimation , i change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: yeah ? phd e: each time that i detect noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i do it uh again this develop . estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . and with th with this new s new mean and variance i estimate again this . professor b: so you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? uh , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: um , no , no , no . it 's not completely no , it 's i am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . professor b: ok . now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? yeah . i mean , i know you do n't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , uh , um phd e: i estimate mean and variance for each one of the gaussian of the codebook . professor b: no , i 'm talking about the noise . phd e: oh , professor b: there 's only one gaussian . phd e: um . well , only one i am only using only one . professor b: right . phd e: i do n't know i professor b: and you and and it 's , uh , uh right , it 's only it 's only one wait a minute . this is what 's the dimensionality of the gaussian ? this is phd e: uh , it 's in after the mel filter bank . professor b: so this is twenty or something ? phd e: twenty - three . professor b: twenty ? so it 's yeah . so it 's actually forty numbers that you 're getting . yeah , maybe maybe you do n't have a phd e: uh , the original paper say that only one gaussian for the noise . professor b: well , yeah . but , i mean , no no paper is is a bible , phd e: yeah , maybe is n't the right thing . professor b: you know . this is this is , uh phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: the question is , um , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more so , suppose you did this is almost cheating . it certainly is n't real - time . but if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the vad and so forth or i i guess we 're gon na be given even better boundaries than that . and you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? that would be another question . phd e: maybe . professor b: so first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? and the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? um . also another question might be um , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector taylor series ? phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: yeah . it 's quite complicated . professor b: yeah , ok . no , i wo n't ask the next question then . phd e: oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that i am working with vts . professor b: yeah . no , it 's interesting . phd e: uh professor b: uh , w we have n't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: it 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . i do n't know . professor b: right . phd f: great . ok . well , i guess we 're about done . um , so some of the digit forms do n't have digits . uh , we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . but , um , i guess you 've got some . right , morgan ? professor b: i have some . phd f: so , why do n't you go ahead and start . and i think it 's just us down here at this end that have them . phd d: s phd e: um phd f: so . professor b: uh , ok . phd d: s so , we switch off with this phd f: whenever you 're ready . phd d: or n ? phd f: uh , leave it on , phd d: no . ok . phd f: uh , professor b: they prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information . phd f: yeah . phd d: ok . ok . phd f: ok . professor b: ok . s

phd c told the team about two approaches to on-line normalization . on was using a time constant and the other was using different means for silence and speech . but the means were not behaving as expected . addition of white noise made it such that the important difference between the means disappeared .

what did the professor think about the difference between means of silence and speech ? </s> phd f: ok . professor b: uh . somebody else should run this . i 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , `` well , what do you think about this ? `` you wan na ? phd d: yeah . phd f: should we take turns ? you want me to run it today ? professor b: yeah . why do n't you run it today ? ok . phd f: ok . ok . um . let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . um , i guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . but aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up phd d: mmm . phd f: for today ? no ? ok . so why do n't we just around and people can give updates . phd e: oh . phd f: uh , do you want to start , stephane ? phd c: alright . um . well , the first thing maybe is that the p eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . um . yeah . phd f: this is what what do you , uh what 's in the paper there ? phd c: so it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the aurora . phd f: the one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: right , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: uh - huh . phd c: um yeah . so and the , fff { comment } comments seems from the reviewer are good . so . phd f: hmm . phd c: mmm yeah . phd f: where where 's it gon na be this year ? phd c: it 's , uh , aalborg in denmark . and it 's , phd f: oh , ok . phd c: yeah , september . phd f: mmm . phd c: mmm yeah . then , uh , whhh well , i 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . uh , i 've been trying different slightly slightly different approaches . um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . um , and so i have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . mmm . this actually do n't s does n't seem to help , although it does n't hurt . so . but well , both on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . well , they phd f: are the means pretty different for the two ? phd c: yeah . they can be very different . yeah . mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: so do you maybe make errors in different places ? different kinds of errors ? phd c: i did n't look , uh , more closely . um . it might be , yeah . mm - hmm . um . well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for c - zero and c - one than for the other coefficients . and yeah . and yeah , it the c - one is there are strange strange thing happening with c - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . and phd f: hmm . phd c: so when you look at the trajectory of c - one , it 's has a strange shape and i was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange c - ze c - one shape , uh , which can like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd f: oh . phd c: so which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we do n't frame ev uh , drop everything , but uh , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and mmm . { comment } but i still have to investigate further , i think . um , a third thing is , um , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , i try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . t t um yeah . and then this time constant increases and i have a threshold that professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , i keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when if the utterance is , uh , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: or mmm . uh , well , this does n't help neither , but this does n't hurt . so , well . it seems pretty phd f: was n't there some experiment you were gon na try where you did something differently for each , um , uh i do n't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , fft bin or someth there was something you were gon na uh , { comment } some parameter you were gon na vary depending on the frequency . i do n't know if that was phd c: i guess it was i do n't know . no . u maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different mfcc 's . phd f: for each , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . i i thought , morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . and then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said `` yeah , it does seem like , you know , c - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one `` or , uh , s i ca n't remember exactly what it was now . phd c: mmm . yeah . there uh , actually , yeah . s um , it 's very important to normalize c - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . and , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . and we i think , we kind of know that normalizing c - one does n't help with the current scheme . and and yeah . in my idea , i i was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . um yeah . but maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: um , i i really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . i know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , um , just seeing that each of these things did n't make things better may not be enough . it may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . and if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: hmm . phd c: alright . mmm . yeah . w um , so that 's it , i think , for the on - line normalization . um yeah . i 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , i think i yeah . well , what i did is t is to take , um to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold well , this for each mel band . then put a threshold that 's fifteen db below well , uh , a couple of db below this maximum , professor b: mm - hmm . mmm . phd c: and actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so i was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen db below the maximum energy of the utterance . and yeah . when we look at at the , um , mfcc that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . phd f: hmm . phd c: um . and yeah . and the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: hmm . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen db just fifteen db below the maximum energy . grad a: sorry . phd c: and at least phd f: so why does that m smooth things out ? i do n't i do n't understand that . professor b: well , there 's less difference . right ? phd c: it 's i think , it 's whitening this the portion that are more silent , professor b: cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: huh . oh , ok . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech do n't get much affected anyway by the other noise . and as the noise you add is the same is the shape , it 's also the same . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: so they have the trajectory are very , very similar . and and professor b: so , i mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you do n't do b do badly . the reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . even if the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . and and phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's , phd f: hmm . professor b: uh phd f: so would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: i think it 's i think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: it 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the aurora database . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: if if you compare th the two shut channels of speechdat - car during speech portion , it 's n n n the mfcc are not very different . they are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . and , professor b: yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: uh professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . phd c: ye professor b: right ? phd c: yeah . so it distort the speech . right . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . phd f: so performance went down ? phd c: no . it did n't . but phd f: oh . phd c: yeah . so , but in this case i i really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . i mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: uh , i mean , first place it 's fifteen db , uh , down across the utterance . and maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . secondly , you happened to pick fifteen db phd c: mmm . professor b: and maybe twenty 'd be better , phd c: yeah . professor b: or or twelve . phd c: yeah . right . phd f: so what was the what was the threshold part of it ? was the threshold , uh , how far down ? professor b: yeah . well , he yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . so he was looking he was looking at the peak value . phd f: uh - huh . professor b: right ? and then phd c: uh - huh . phd f: and and so what 's ho i do n't understand . how does it go ? if it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? or if it 's below s phd c: i systematically { comment } add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . phd f: oh , oh . i see . phd c: mmm . phd f: i see . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . yeah . which is not really noise , actually . it 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: to each of the mel filter bank . yeah . phd f: i see . phd c: so , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . i th professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . phd c: mm - hmm . um . yeah . so may well , the this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . and i do n't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or um professor b: or or not constant but but , uh , varying over time in fact is another way to go . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd c: yeah . um professor b: were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? i mean , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: um yeah . it was it was , uh , the same system . mm - hmm . professor b: ok . phd c: it was the same system . mmm . oh , yeah . a third thing is that , um , i play a little bit with the , um finding what was different between , um , and there were a couple of differences , like the lda filters were not the same . um , he had the france telecom blind equalization in the system . um , the number o of mfcc that was were used was different . you used thirteen and we used fifteen . well , a bunch of differences . and , um , actually the result that he he got were much better on ti - digits especially . so i 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . and it seems that the lda filter is is was hurting . um , so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , lda filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . and it makes a big difference , um , on ti - digits trained on clean . uh , if we use the the old lda filter , i mean the lda filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . but and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um . yeah . so now the results are more similar , and i do n't i will not , i think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of mfcc that we keep and other small things that we can i think optimize later on anyway . professor b: sure . but on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . right ? so if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , i mean which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to aurora ? are they they both ? well , i mean phd c: i think yeah . i think th th uh , the new system that i tested is , i guess , closer because it does n't have it have less of of france telecom stuff , phd d: you mean the phd c: i phd d: the whatever you , uh , tested with recently . right ? phd c: mmm ? yeah . phd d: yeah ? professor b: well , no , i i 'm i yeah , you 're trying to add in france telecom . phd c: but , we professor b: tell them about the rest of it . like you said the number of filters might be different or something . right ? or phd d: the number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: cep phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so , i mean , i think we 'd wan na standardize there , would n't we ? phd c: yeah , yeah . professor b: so , sh you guys should pick something phd d: yeah . professor b: and well , all th all three of you . phd d: yeah . phd c: i think we were gon na work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: uh , so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . phd c: so right . yeah . phd d: yeah , so yeah , so yep . phd c: but we will use the the lda filters f derived from clean speech . well , yeah , actually it 's it 's not the the lda filter . phd d: yeah , yeah . so phd c: it 's something that 's also short enough in in latency . phd d: yeah . well . phd c: so . phd d: yeah . so , we have n't w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients , phd c: yeah . phd d: not thirteen ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . well , uh , that 's something 's um . yeah . then professor b: i think as long as you guys agree on it , it does n't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: i think we have a maximum of sixty , uh , features that we 're allowed . so . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . ma - maybe we can i mean , at least , um , i 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once i have this { comment } noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: never tested it with the compensation , but without , uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: yeah . phd d: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen . phd c: yeah . and there is there is also this log energy versus c - zero . phd d: sorry , fifteen . yeah , the log energy versus c - zero . phd c: well . w w if if phd d: uh , that 's that 's the other thing . i mean , without noise compensation certainly c - zero is better than log energy . be - i mean , because the there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: you know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than c - zero . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not for i mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy i mean you get a better performance with log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , i do n't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for c - zero or log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: we can see that . phd c: yeah . phd d: hmm . phd c: mmm . phd f: so do you have more , stephane , or ? phd c: uh , that 's it , i think . mmm . phd f: do you have anything , morgan , or ? professor b: uh , no . i 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . so . phd f: how about you , barry ? grad a: um , still working on my my quals preparation stuff . um , so i 'm i 'm thinking about , um , starting some , uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that i want to classify . so , for example , um , if i know where voicing occurs and everything , um , i would do a phone um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the the , uh the perfect knowledge that i have about voicing . so , um , in particular i was thinking , um , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those lna files , and , um , setting to zero those probabilities that , um that these phones are not voicing . so say , like , i know this particular segment is voicing , um , i would say , uh , go into the corresponding lna file and zonk out the the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced , phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and then see what kinds of improvements i get . and so this would be a useful thing , um , to know in terms of , like , which which , um which of these categories are are good for , um , speech recognition . phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so , that 's i hope to get those , uh those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in july . phd f: so do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: yeah . i i i was thinking ok , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , um , phones . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? and then renormalize . phd f: mmm . grad a: right . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: cool . that will be really interesting to see , you know . so then you 're gon na feed the those into some standard recognizer . grad a: mm - hmm . phd f: uh , wh are you gon na do digits grad a: yeah , m um , well , i 'm gon na f work with timit phd f: or ? with timit . ok . grad a: timit uh , phone recognition with timit . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and , um phd f: oh , so then you 'll feed those sorry . so where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: oh . um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , icsi hybrid , um , recognizer . so maybe , um , chronos phd f: an - and you 're gon na the you 're gon na do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or phone recognition . right , right . phd f: ok , ok . i see . grad a: so . and , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where i can look at whole words . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and i would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , inter - phoneme events . so , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: segment . you know , so something that is transitional in nature . phd f: right . grad a: yeah . phd f: cool . great . grad a: so that 's that 's it . phd f: uh ok . grad a: yeah . phd f: um let 's see , i have n't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . i 've been focusing mainly on meeting recorder stuff . phd c: oh . phd f: so , um , i guess i 'll just pass it on to dave . grad g: uh , ok . well , in my lunch talk last week i i said i 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . it turned out there was a bug in my matlab code . so i tried it again , um , and , um , the results were were better . i got intelligible speech back . but they still were n't as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means . and also i 've been talking to , um , andreas and thilo about the , um , smartkom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the smartkom system . so i 'm gon na be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the smartkom system , i mean . and , um , one of the experiments we 're gon na do is , um , we 're gon na , um , train the a broadcast news net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . um , an - andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the smartkom system interaction is not gon na be exactly conversational . phd f: mm - hmm . grad g: s so actually i was wondering , how long does it take to train that broadcast news net ? professor b: the big one takes a while . yeah . that takes two , three weeks . grad g: two , three weeks . professor b: so but , you know , uh , you can get i do n't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . so , um , you can scale it down by i 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large broadcast news test set training set . i do n't know how much you 'd be training on . grad g: oh . professor b: the full ? grad g: ok . professor b: uh , i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: ok . professor b: and it 'd be nearly as good . so . grad g: ok . professor b: yeah . also , i guess we had we 've had these , uh , little di discussions i guess you ha have n't had a chance to work with it too much about about , uh uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . so , i mean , i i guess that was something i could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh and not not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . but it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . but grad g: and , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization so i did two experiments , and one is so , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . and so i thought at first , um , that , uh , what i should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . um , but i actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in matlab than i did not unwrapping at all . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . p so . grad g: and that 's all i have to say . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . so i 'm i 'm still hopeful that that i mean , we we do n't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . i mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it is n't the right thing to do . but , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . one one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh in rectangular kind of coordinates . and the other is to , uh , do a taylor series well . so you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . so then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . we do n't really know that . the other thing we talked a little bit about was taylor series expansion . and , um , uh , actually i was talking to dick karp about it a little bit , and and and , since i got thinking about it , and and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , i think , uh we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but i think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . and and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one it should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: ok . professor b: and so forth . so if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges . grad g: oh . professor b: so you have to do some scaling . but that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of k times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of k plus log of the complex number . grad g: oh . professor b: uh , so there 's grad g: ok . professor b: converges . but . phd f: hmm . ok . how about you , sunil ? phd d: so , um , i 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , wiener filtering for this aurora task . and , uh , i i actually thought it was it was doing fine when i tested it once . i it 's , like , using a small section of the code . and then i ran the whole recognition experiment with italian and i got , like , worse results than not using it . then i so , i 've been trying to find where the problem came from . and then it looks like i have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . and , ugh ! i i mean , i uh , it actually i it actually made the whole thing worse . i was looking at the spectrograms that i got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . like , when i professor b: i i missed the v i 'm sorry , i was i was distracted . i missed the very first sentence . so then , i 'm a little lost on the rest . phd d: oh , i mean professor b: what what what ? phd d: oh , yeah . i actually implemented the wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately . professor b: yeah , i see . oh , ok . phd d: and it it it gave , like i just got the signal out and it it was ok . so , i plugged it in somewhere and then i mean , it 's like i had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . and then i in that process i messed it up somewhere . professor b: ok . phd d: so . so , it was real i mean , i thought it was all fine and then i ran it , and i got something worse than not using it . so , i was like i 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: uh - huh . phd d: and it seems to be , like , somewhere professor b: ok . phd d: some silly stuff . and , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh well , hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then i was t talking wi professor b: right . yeah . as as he is wont to do . yeah . phd d: uh , yeah . so i was actually that day i was thinking about d doing something about the wiener filtering , and then carlos matter of stuff . and then he showed up and then i told him . and then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then that was something which came up . and then , um so , uh , i 'm actually , uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , w wiener filtering because that is a m modified wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the wiener filter . so instead of designing our own new wiener filters , i may just use one of those carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing the wiener filter professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: but @ @ s so , i do n't know , i was h i 'm i 'm i 'm , like that so that is the next thing . once this i once i sort this pro uh , problem out maybe i 'll just go into that also . and the the other thing was about the subspace approach . so , um , i , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . so just i just @ @ some small block of things which i needed to put together for the subspace approach . and i 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . and , um , uh yeah . i guess yep . i guess that 's it . and , uh , th th that 's where i am right now . so . phd f: oh . how about you , carmen ? phd e: mmm . i 'm working with vts . um , i do several experiment with the spanish database first , only with vts and nothing more . not vad , no lda , nothing more . phd f: what what is vts again ? phd d: new phd e: eh , vectorial taylor series . phd f: oh , yes . phd e: to remove the noise too . phd f: right , right . i think i ask you that every single meeting , do n't i ? phd e: what ? phd f: i ask you that question every meeting . phd e: yeah . professor b: so , that 'd be good from for analysis . phd e: if well professor b: it 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different different times . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: `` what is vts ? `` phd e: vts . i 'm sor well , um , the question is that well . remove some noise but not too much . and when we put the m m the , em , vad , the result is better . and we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without vts . no , no . professor b: i see . so that @ @ { comment } given that you 're using the vad also , the effect of the vts is not so far phd e: is not . professor b: do you how much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: pfft . i do n't know because phd c: are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: hhh , phd c: or ? or i ? phd e: uh , i do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . phd c: yeah . hmm . phd e: and also i did some experiment , uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . and , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different they all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: mmm . phd e: mmm . no , i do that two t did two time . phd c: but they use every all use a different one . professor b: i have an idea . if if , uh , uh , y you 're right . i mean , each of these require this . um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? s so , e um , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: first place , i mean even if ultimately we would n't be given the boundaries , uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . i mean , how much is the poor you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um . so maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . phd e: yeah . another thing is the , em the codebook , the initial codebook . that maybe , well , it 's too clean and professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: cuz it 's a i do n't know . the methods if you want , you c i can say something about the method . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . in the because it 's a little bit different of the other method . well , we have if this if this is the noise signal , uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . now , we have something like this . and the idea of these methods is to n given a , um professor b: phd e: how do you say ? i will read because it 's better for my english . i i given is the estimate of the pdf of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . and the clean speech the statistic of the clean speech is from a codebook . mmm ? this is the idea . well , like , this relation is not linear . the methods propose to develop this in a vectorial taylor series approximation . professor b: i i 'm actually just confused about the equations you have up there . so , uh , the top equation is is is phd e: no , this in the it 's this is the log domain . i i must to say that . professor b: which is which is the log domain ? phd e: is the t is egual { comment } is equal to , uh , log of professor b: and but y is what ? y of the spectrum phd e: uh , this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . professor b: no , no . the top y is what ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: is that power spectrum ? phd e: uh , this is the noisy speech . phd c: p s this professor b: no , is that power spectrum ? is it ? phd c: yeah . i guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech . phd e: yeah . it 's the power spectrum . professor b: oh , ok . phd c: yeah . and professor b: so that 's uh phd e: this is the noisy yeah , it 's professor b: ok . phd e: of the value professor b: yeah , ok . so this it 's the magnitude squared or something . phd e: yeah . professor b: ok , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on t , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o yeah . it 's the same . professor b: you just mean the log of the of the one up above . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , uh , so that is x times , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , phd d: one one plus n by x . phd e: yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: but , n well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: x times one plus , uh , n uh , n n n minus x ? phd e: the yeah . professor b: and then , uh so that 's log of x plus log of one plus , uh phd e: and the noise signal . professor b: well . is that right ? log of phd d: one plus n by x . phd e: well , mmm professor b: i actually do n't see how you get that . uh . phd e: well , if we apply the log , we have e is n phd c: mmm . phd d: uh , and phd e: uh , log e is equal , oh , to log of x plus n . professor b: yeah . phd e: and , well , phd d: and , log of phd e: uh , we can say that e is equal to log of , um , exponential of x plus exponential of n . professor b: uh phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: well , if e restricts it is y phd e: well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . well , we have that , um we have first that , for example , x is equal , uh well . this is the frequency domain professor b: yeah . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of x omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . no ? no ? oh , maybe it 's i am i 'm problem . professor b: yeah . i mean , just never mind what they are . uh , it 's just if x and n are variables right ? phd d: what is , uh ? professor b: the the the log of x plus n is not the same as the log of e to the x plus e to the n . phd e: yeah . but this i well , i do n't well , uh , professor b: maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but i i do n't know . phd e: i i can do this incorrectly . well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , uh phd d: the log the taylor series expansion for log one plus n by x is professor b: ok . phd c: is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is x professor b: i i phd d: yeah , the first one . phd c: yeah , i guess . phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . yeah . cuz it does n't just follow what 's there . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: it has to be some , uh , taylor series phd d: y yeah . if if you take log x into log one plus n by x , and then expand the log one plus n by x into taylor series phd c: yeah . phd e: now , this is the and then phd c: yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: not exactly . professor b: no . phd e: no , no , no . it 's not the first space . well , we have pfft , uh , em well , we can put that x is equal i is equal to log of , uh , mmm professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: mmm . phd e: well , we can put , uh , this ? phd d: no . professor b: that i mean , that the f top one does not imply the second one . because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: the top ? professor b: i mean , as phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: but we can uh , we we know that , for example , the log of e plus b is equal to log of e plus log to b . professor b: right . phd e: and we can say here , it i professor b: right . so you could s phd c: what is that ? phd e: and we can , uh , put this inside . professor b: yeah . phd e: and then we can , uh , professor b: n no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: yeah . professor b: i do n't see how you get the second expression from the top one . phd d: uh . professor b: the i mean , just more generally here , if you say `` log of , um , a plus b `` , the log of log of a plus b is not or a plus b is not the , um , log of e to the a plus e to the b . phd e: no , no , no , no , no , no , no . this not . professor b: right ? and that 's what you seem to be saying . phd e: no . no . it 's not . but this is the same oh . professor b: right ? cuz you cuz you up here you have the a plus b phd e: no . i say if i apply log , i have , uh , log of e is equal to log of , uh in this side , is equal to log of x professor b: plus n . phd e: plus n . professor b: right . phd e: no ? professor b: right . phd e: right . professor b: and then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: this is right . and then if i apply exponential , to have here e professor b: look . ok , so let 's i mean , c equals a plus b , phd c: it 's log o of capital y . yeah , right . professor b: and then phd c: capital y . phd e: yeah . phd d: x . x . this is x , inside . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd e: we have this , no ? professor b: yeah . that one 's right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: one and phd e: s uh , i th we can put here the set transformation . professor b: oh . i see . phd e: no ? professor b: i see . ok , i understand now . alright , thanks . phd e: yeah . in this case , well , we can put here a y . professor b: ok . so , yeah . it 's just by definition that the individual that the , uh so , capital x is by definition the same as e to the little x because she 's saying that the little x is is the , uh is the log . alright . phd e: now we can put this . professor b: yeah . phd e: no ? professor b: alright . phd e: and here we can multiply by x . professor b: i think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: oh , yes . professor b: so you know which is which . but i i under i understand what you mean now . phd e: yeah , yeah . that 's true . that 's true . professor b: ok . phd e: but this this is correct ? professor b: sure . phd e: and now i can do it , uh pfff ! i can put log of ex plus log professor b: oh . yes . i understand now . and that 's where it comes from . phd e: and this is professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . right . professor b: right . phd e: now it 's correct . professor b: right . ok . thanks . phd e: well . the idea well , we have fixed this equa professor b: ok . so now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , taylor series expansion of this . phd e: yeah . this is another linear relation that this to develop this in vector s taylor series . phd c: yeah , sure . professor b: right . phd e: mm - hmm . and for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um est estimate a pdf for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . mmm ? and when w the way to obtain the pdf for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and then when we have a expression , uh , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . this only that . but the idea is that phd c: and the the model of clean speech is a codebook . right ? phd e: u yeah . we have our codebook with different density gaussian . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: we can expre we can put that the pdf { comment } for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: yeah . phd e: phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: yeah . phd e: i i need to s professor b: yeah . phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: cuz i think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , um , you do n't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not . phd e: yeah . i the clean speech the codebook for clean speech , i am using timit . and i have now , uh , sixty - four gaus - gaussian . professor b: uh - huh . and what are you using for the noisy ? y y doing that strictly phd e: of the noise i estimate the noises wi professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: well , for the noises i only use one gaussian . professor b: and and you and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: hmm . phd e: uh , yes . the first experiment that i do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: yeah . phd e: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is the first experiment . professor b: yeah . phd e: and i fix this for all the all the sentences . uh , because well , the vts methods in fact the first thing that i do is to to obtain , uh , an expression for e probability e expression of of e . that mean that the vts mmm , with the vts we obtain , uh well , we we obtain the means for each gaussian { comment } and the variance . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is one . eh , this is the composition of the dictionary . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this one thing . and the other thing that this with these methods is to , uh , obtain to calculate this value . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: because we can write uh , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: this is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of e minus a function that conditional to e to the t to the noise signal . well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . give px and , uh , p the noise . phd d: x k c noise . professor b: mmm . phd e: and i can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus well , i put before this name , uh and i can calculate this . professor b: what is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: uh , this is the gaussian . professor b: no , no . i 'm sorry . in in the one you pointed at . what 's that variable ? phd e: v uh , this is the phd d: weak . so probably it it would do that . phd e: like this , phd c: it 's one mixture of the model . right ? phd e: but conditional . no , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . it 's modify . uh , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each gaussian . professor b: ok . phd e: no . and now , this weight is different now professor b: yes . phd e: because it 's conditional . and this i need to to calcu i know this professor b: uh - huh . phd e: and i know this because this is from the dictionary that you have . professor b: uh - huh . phd e: i need to calculate this . professor b: yes . phd e: and for calculate this , i have an i i can develop an expression that is phd d: it 's overlapping . phd e: that . i can calculate i can i calculated this value , uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that i calculated before with the vts approximation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and well , normalizing . and i know everything . uh , with the , nnn when i develop this in s taylor taylor series , i ca n't , um , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . now . and this is fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: if i never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that i need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: so , i 'm i 'm not following this perfectly but , um , i are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? and never change throughout anything else ? phd e: yeah . never cha this is one of the approximations that i am doing . professor b: per per per utterance , or per ? phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: per utterance . ok . phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: so it 's done it 's done new for each new utterance . phd e: and th professor b: so this changes the whole mapping for every utterance . phd e: yeah . it 's not yeah . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , the dictionary . professor b: ok . phd e: and the other estimation is when i do the uh on - line estimation , i change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: yeah ? phd e: each time that i detect noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i do it uh again this develop . estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . and with th with this new s new mean and variance i estimate again this . professor b: so you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? uh , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: um , no , no , no . it 's not completely no , it 's i am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . professor b: ok . now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? yeah . i mean , i know you do n't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , uh , um phd e: i estimate mean and variance for each one of the gaussian of the codebook . professor b: no , i 'm talking about the noise . phd e: oh , professor b: there 's only one gaussian . phd e: um . well , only one i am only using only one . professor b: right . phd e: i do n't know i professor b: and you and and it 's , uh , uh right , it 's only it 's only one wait a minute . this is what 's the dimensionality of the gaussian ? this is phd e: uh , it 's in after the mel filter bank . professor b: so this is twenty or something ? phd e: twenty - three . professor b: twenty ? so it 's yeah . so it 's actually forty numbers that you 're getting . yeah , maybe maybe you do n't have a phd e: uh , the original paper say that only one gaussian for the noise . professor b: well , yeah . but , i mean , no no paper is is a bible , phd e: yeah , maybe is n't the right thing . professor b: you know . this is this is , uh phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: the question is , um , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more so , suppose you did this is almost cheating . it certainly is n't real - time . but if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the vad and so forth or i i guess we 're gon na be given even better boundaries than that . and you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? that would be another question . phd e: maybe . professor b: so first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? and the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? um . also another question might be um , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector taylor series ? phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: yeah . it 's quite complicated . professor b: yeah , ok . no , i wo n't ask the next question then . phd e: oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that i am working with vts . professor b: yeah . no , it 's interesting . phd e: uh professor b: uh , w we have n't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: it 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . i do n't know . professor b: right . phd f: great . ok . well , i guess we 're about done . um , so some of the digit forms do n't have digits . uh , we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . but , um , i guess you 've got some . right , morgan ? professor b: i have some . phd f: so , why do n't you go ahead and start . and i think it 's just us down here at this end that have them . phd d: s phd e: um phd f: so . professor b: uh , ok . phd d: s so , we switch off with this phd f: whenever you 're ready . phd d: or n ? phd f: uh , leave it on , phd d: no . ok . phd f: uh , professor b: they prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information . phd f: yeah . phd d: ok . ok . phd f: ok . professor b: ok . s

the professor suggested delving deep into the different types of errors in the difference between silence and speech means . he thought that training and testing in the same kind of white noise would be an effective strategy . in his opinion , the differences were hurting the recognition , even though they were not too big .

summarize the discussion on quals and phase normalization </s> phd f: ok . professor b: uh . somebody else should run this . i 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , `` well , what do you think about this ? `` you wan na ? phd d: yeah . phd f: should we take turns ? you want me to run it today ? professor b: yeah . why do n't you run it today ? ok . phd f: ok . ok . um . let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . um , i guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . but aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up phd d: mmm . phd f: for today ? no ? ok . so why do n't we just around and people can give updates . phd e: oh . phd f: uh , do you want to start , stephane ? phd c: alright . um . well , the first thing maybe is that the p eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . um . yeah . phd f: this is what what do you , uh what 's in the paper there ? phd c: so it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the aurora . phd f: the one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: right , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: uh - huh . phd c: um yeah . so and the , fff { comment } comments seems from the reviewer are good . so . phd f: hmm . phd c: mmm yeah . phd f: where where 's it gon na be this year ? phd c: it 's , uh , aalborg in denmark . and it 's , phd f: oh , ok . phd c: yeah , september . phd f: mmm . phd c: mmm yeah . then , uh , whhh well , i 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . uh , i 've been trying different slightly slightly different approaches . um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . um , and so i have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . mmm . this actually do n't s does n't seem to help , although it does n't hurt . so . but well , both on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . well , they phd f: are the means pretty different for the two ? phd c: yeah . they can be very different . yeah . mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: so do you maybe make errors in different places ? different kinds of errors ? phd c: i did n't look , uh , more closely . um . it might be , yeah . mm - hmm . um . well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for c - zero and c - one than for the other coefficients . and yeah . and yeah , it the c - one is there are strange strange thing happening with c - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . and phd f: hmm . phd c: so when you look at the trajectory of c - one , it 's has a strange shape and i was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange c - ze c - one shape , uh , which can like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd f: oh . phd c: so which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we do n't frame ev uh , drop everything , but uh , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and mmm . { comment } but i still have to investigate further , i think . um , a third thing is , um , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , i try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . t t um yeah . and then this time constant increases and i have a threshold that professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , i keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when if the utterance is , uh , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: or mmm . uh , well , this does n't help neither , but this does n't hurt . so , well . it seems pretty phd f: was n't there some experiment you were gon na try where you did something differently for each , um , uh i do n't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , fft bin or someth there was something you were gon na uh , { comment } some parameter you were gon na vary depending on the frequency . i do n't know if that was phd c: i guess it was i do n't know . no . u maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different mfcc 's . phd f: for each , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . i i thought , morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . and then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said `` yeah , it does seem like , you know , c - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one `` or , uh , s i ca n't remember exactly what it was now . phd c: mmm . yeah . there uh , actually , yeah . s um , it 's very important to normalize c - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . and , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . and we i think , we kind of know that normalizing c - one does n't help with the current scheme . and and yeah . in my idea , i i was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . um yeah . but maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: um , i i really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . i know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , um , just seeing that each of these things did n't make things better may not be enough . it may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . and if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: hmm . phd c: alright . mmm . yeah . w um , so that 's it , i think , for the on - line normalization . um yeah . i 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , i think i yeah . well , what i did is t is to take , um to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold well , this for each mel band . then put a threshold that 's fifteen db below well , uh , a couple of db below this maximum , professor b: mm - hmm . mmm . phd c: and actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so i was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen db below the maximum energy of the utterance . and yeah . when we look at at the , um , mfcc that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . phd f: hmm . phd c: um . and yeah . and the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: hmm . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen db just fifteen db below the maximum energy . grad a: sorry . phd c: and at least phd f: so why does that m smooth things out ? i do n't i do n't understand that . professor b: well , there 's less difference . right ? phd c: it 's i think , it 's whitening this the portion that are more silent , professor b: cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: huh . oh , ok . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech do n't get much affected anyway by the other noise . and as the noise you add is the same is the shape , it 's also the same . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: so they have the trajectory are very , very similar . and and professor b: so , i mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you do n't do b do badly . the reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . even if the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . and and phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's , phd f: hmm . professor b: uh phd f: so would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: i think it 's i think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: it 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the aurora database . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: if if you compare th the two shut channels of speechdat - car during speech portion , it 's n n n the mfcc are not very different . they are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . and , professor b: yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: uh professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . phd c: ye professor b: right ? phd c: yeah . so it distort the speech . right . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . phd f: so performance went down ? phd c: no . it did n't . but phd f: oh . phd c: yeah . so , but in this case i i really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . i mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: uh , i mean , first place it 's fifteen db , uh , down across the utterance . and maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . secondly , you happened to pick fifteen db phd c: mmm . professor b: and maybe twenty 'd be better , phd c: yeah . professor b: or or twelve . phd c: yeah . right . phd f: so what was the what was the threshold part of it ? was the threshold , uh , how far down ? professor b: yeah . well , he yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . so he was looking he was looking at the peak value . phd f: uh - huh . professor b: right ? and then phd c: uh - huh . phd f: and and so what 's ho i do n't understand . how does it go ? if it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? or if it 's below s phd c: i systematically { comment } add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . phd f: oh , oh . i see . phd c: mmm . phd f: i see . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . yeah . which is not really noise , actually . it 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: to each of the mel filter bank . yeah . phd f: i see . phd c: so , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . i th professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . phd c: mm - hmm . um . yeah . so may well , the this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . and i do n't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or um professor b: or or not constant but but , uh , varying over time in fact is another way to go . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd c: yeah . um professor b: were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? i mean , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: um yeah . it was it was , uh , the same system . mm - hmm . professor b: ok . phd c: it was the same system . mmm . oh , yeah . a third thing is that , um , i play a little bit with the , um finding what was different between , um , and there were a couple of differences , like the lda filters were not the same . um , he had the france telecom blind equalization in the system . um , the number o of mfcc that was were used was different . you used thirteen and we used fifteen . well , a bunch of differences . and , um , actually the result that he he got were much better on ti - digits especially . so i 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . and it seems that the lda filter is is was hurting . um , so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , lda filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . and it makes a big difference , um , on ti - digits trained on clean . uh , if we use the the old lda filter , i mean the lda filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . but and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um . yeah . so now the results are more similar , and i do n't i will not , i think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of mfcc that we keep and other small things that we can i think optimize later on anyway . professor b: sure . but on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . right ? so if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , i mean which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to aurora ? are they they both ? well , i mean phd c: i think yeah . i think th th uh , the new system that i tested is , i guess , closer because it does n't have it have less of of france telecom stuff , phd d: you mean the phd c: i phd d: the whatever you , uh , tested with recently . right ? phd c: mmm ? yeah . phd d: yeah ? professor b: well , no , i i 'm i yeah , you 're trying to add in france telecom . phd c: but , we professor b: tell them about the rest of it . like you said the number of filters might be different or something . right ? or phd d: the number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: cep phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so , i mean , i think we 'd wan na standardize there , would n't we ? phd c: yeah , yeah . professor b: so , sh you guys should pick something phd d: yeah . professor b: and well , all th all three of you . phd d: yeah . phd c: i think we were gon na work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: uh , so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . phd c: so right . yeah . phd d: yeah , so yeah , so yep . phd c: but we will use the the lda filters f derived from clean speech . well , yeah , actually it 's it 's not the the lda filter . phd d: yeah , yeah . so phd c: it 's something that 's also short enough in in latency . phd d: yeah . well . phd c: so . phd d: yeah . so , we have n't w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients , phd c: yeah . phd d: not thirteen ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . well , uh , that 's something 's um . yeah . then professor b: i think as long as you guys agree on it , it does n't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: i think we have a maximum of sixty , uh , features that we 're allowed . so . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . ma - maybe we can i mean , at least , um , i 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once i have this { comment } noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: never tested it with the compensation , but without , uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: yeah . phd d: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen . phd c: yeah . and there is there is also this log energy versus c - zero . phd d: sorry , fifteen . yeah , the log energy versus c - zero . phd c: well . w w if if phd d: uh , that 's that 's the other thing . i mean , without noise compensation certainly c - zero is better than log energy . be - i mean , because the there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: you know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than c - zero . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not for i mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy i mean you get a better performance with log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , i do n't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for c - zero or log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: we can see that . phd c: yeah . phd d: hmm . phd c: mmm . phd f: so do you have more , stephane , or ? phd c: uh , that 's it , i think . mmm . phd f: do you have anything , morgan , or ? professor b: uh , no . i 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . so . phd f: how about you , barry ? grad a: um , still working on my my quals preparation stuff . um , so i 'm i 'm thinking about , um , starting some , uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that i want to classify . so , for example , um , if i know where voicing occurs and everything , um , i would do a phone um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the the , uh the perfect knowledge that i have about voicing . so , um , in particular i was thinking , um , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those lna files , and , um , setting to zero those probabilities that , um that these phones are not voicing . so say , like , i know this particular segment is voicing , um , i would say , uh , go into the corresponding lna file and zonk out the the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced , phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and then see what kinds of improvements i get . and so this would be a useful thing , um , to know in terms of , like , which which , um which of these categories are are good for , um , speech recognition . phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so , that 's i hope to get those , uh those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in july . phd f: so do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: yeah . i i i was thinking ok , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , um , phones . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? and then renormalize . phd f: mmm . grad a: right . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: cool . that will be really interesting to see , you know . so then you 're gon na feed the those into some standard recognizer . grad a: mm - hmm . phd f: uh , wh are you gon na do digits grad a: yeah , m um , well , i 'm gon na f work with timit phd f: or ? with timit . ok . grad a: timit uh , phone recognition with timit . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and , um phd f: oh , so then you 'll feed those sorry . so where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: oh . um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , icsi hybrid , um , recognizer . so maybe , um , chronos phd f: an - and you 're gon na the you 're gon na do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or phone recognition . right , right . phd f: ok , ok . i see . grad a: so . and , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where i can look at whole words . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and i would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , inter - phoneme events . so , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: segment . you know , so something that is transitional in nature . phd f: right . grad a: yeah . phd f: cool . great . grad a: so that 's that 's it . phd f: uh ok . grad a: yeah . phd f: um let 's see , i have n't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . i 've been focusing mainly on meeting recorder stuff . phd c: oh . phd f: so , um , i guess i 'll just pass it on to dave . grad g: uh , ok . well , in my lunch talk last week i i said i 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . it turned out there was a bug in my matlab code . so i tried it again , um , and , um , the results were were better . i got intelligible speech back . but they still were n't as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means . and also i 've been talking to , um , andreas and thilo about the , um , smartkom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the smartkom system . so i 'm gon na be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the smartkom system , i mean . and , um , one of the experiments we 're gon na do is , um , we 're gon na , um , train the a broadcast news net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . um , an - andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the smartkom system interaction is not gon na be exactly conversational . phd f: mm - hmm . grad g: s so actually i was wondering , how long does it take to train that broadcast news net ? professor b: the big one takes a while . yeah . that takes two , three weeks . grad g: two , three weeks . professor b: so but , you know , uh , you can get i do n't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . so , um , you can scale it down by i 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large broadcast news test set training set . i do n't know how much you 'd be training on . grad g: oh . professor b: the full ? grad g: ok . professor b: uh , i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: ok . professor b: and it 'd be nearly as good . so . grad g: ok . professor b: yeah . also , i guess we had we 've had these , uh , little di discussions i guess you ha have n't had a chance to work with it too much about about , uh uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . so , i mean , i i guess that was something i could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh and not not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . but it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . but grad g: and , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization so i did two experiments , and one is so , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . and so i thought at first , um , that , uh , what i should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . um , but i actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in matlab than i did not unwrapping at all . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . p so . grad g: and that 's all i have to say . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . so i 'm i 'm still hopeful that that i mean , we we do n't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . i mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it is n't the right thing to do . but , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . one one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh in rectangular kind of coordinates . and the other is to , uh , do a taylor series well . so you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . so then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . we do n't really know that . the other thing we talked a little bit about was taylor series expansion . and , um , uh , actually i was talking to dick karp about it a little bit , and and and , since i got thinking about it , and and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , i think , uh we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but i think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . and and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one it should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: ok . professor b: and so forth . so if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges . grad g: oh . professor b: so you have to do some scaling . but that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of k times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of k plus log of the complex number . grad g: oh . professor b: uh , so there 's grad g: ok . professor b: converges . but . phd f: hmm . ok . how about you , sunil ? phd d: so , um , i 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , wiener filtering for this aurora task . and , uh , i i actually thought it was it was doing fine when i tested it once . i it 's , like , using a small section of the code . and then i ran the whole recognition experiment with italian and i got , like , worse results than not using it . then i so , i 've been trying to find where the problem came from . and then it looks like i have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . and , ugh ! i i mean , i uh , it actually i it actually made the whole thing worse . i was looking at the spectrograms that i got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . like , when i professor b: i i missed the v i 'm sorry , i was i was distracted . i missed the very first sentence . so then , i 'm a little lost on the rest . phd d: oh , i mean professor b: what what what ? phd d: oh , yeah . i actually implemented the wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately . professor b: yeah , i see . oh , ok . phd d: and it it it gave , like i just got the signal out and it it was ok . so , i plugged it in somewhere and then i mean , it 's like i had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . and then i in that process i messed it up somewhere . professor b: ok . phd d: so . so , it was real i mean , i thought it was all fine and then i ran it , and i got something worse than not using it . so , i was like i 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: uh - huh . phd d: and it seems to be , like , somewhere professor b: ok . phd d: some silly stuff . and , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh well , hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then i was t talking wi professor b: right . yeah . as as he is wont to do . yeah . phd d: uh , yeah . so i was actually that day i was thinking about d doing something about the wiener filtering , and then carlos matter of stuff . and then he showed up and then i told him . and then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then that was something which came up . and then , um so , uh , i 'm actually , uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , w wiener filtering because that is a m modified wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the wiener filter . so instead of designing our own new wiener filters , i may just use one of those carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing the wiener filter professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: but @ @ s so , i do n't know , i was h i 'm i 'm i 'm , like that so that is the next thing . once this i once i sort this pro uh , problem out maybe i 'll just go into that also . and the the other thing was about the subspace approach . so , um , i , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . so just i just @ @ some small block of things which i needed to put together for the subspace approach . and i 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . and , um , uh yeah . i guess yep . i guess that 's it . and , uh , th th that 's where i am right now . so . phd f: oh . how about you , carmen ? phd e: mmm . i 'm working with vts . um , i do several experiment with the spanish database first , only with vts and nothing more . not vad , no lda , nothing more . phd f: what what is vts again ? phd d: new phd e: eh , vectorial taylor series . phd f: oh , yes . phd e: to remove the noise too . phd f: right , right . i think i ask you that every single meeting , do n't i ? phd e: what ? phd f: i ask you that question every meeting . phd e: yeah . professor b: so , that 'd be good from for analysis . phd e: if well professor b: it 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different different times . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: `` what is vts ? `` phd e: vts . i 'm sor well , um , the question is that well . remove some noise but not too much . and when we put the m m the , em , vad , the result is better . and we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without vts . no , no . professor b: i see . so that @ @ { comment } given that you 're using the vad also , the effect of the vts is not so far phd e: is not . professor b: do you how much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: pfft . i do n't know because phd c: are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: hhh , phd c: or ? or i ? phd e: uh , i do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . phd c: yeah . hmm . phd e: and also i did some experiment , uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . and , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different they all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: mmm . phd e: mmm . no , i do that two t did two time . phd c: but they use every all use a different one . professor b: i have an idea . if if , uh , uh , y you 're right . i mean , each of these require this . um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? s so , e um , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: first place , i mean even if ultimately we would n't be given the boundaries , uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . i mean , how much is the poor you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um . so maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . phd e: yeah . another thing is the , em the codebook , the initial codebook . that maybe , well , it 's too clean and professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: cuz it 's a i do n't know . the methods if you want , you c i can say something about the method . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . in the because it 's a little bit different of the other method . well , we have if this if this is the noise signal , uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . now , we have something like this . and the idea of these methods is to n given a , um professor b: phd e: how do you say ? i will read because it 's better for my english . i i given is the estimate of the pdf of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . and the clean speech the statistic of the clean speech is from a codebook . mmm ? this is the idea . well , like , this relation is not linear . the methods propose to develop this in a vectorial taylor series approximation . professor b: i i 'm actually just confused about the equations you have up there . so , uh , the top equation is is is phd e: no , this in the it 's this is the log domain . i i must to say that . professor b: which is which is the log domain ? phd e: is the t is egual { comment } is equal to , uh , log of professor b: and but y is what ? y of the spectrum phd e: uh , this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . professor b: no , no . the top y is what ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: is that power spectrum ? phd e: uh , this is the noisy speech . phd c: p s this professor b: no , is that power spectrum ? is it ? phd c: yeah . i guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech . phd e: yeah . it 's the power spectrum . professor b: oh , ok . phd c: yeah . and professor b: so that 's uh phd e: this is the noisy yeah , it 's professor b: ok . phd e: of the value professor b: yeah , ok . so this it 's the magnitude squared or something . phd e: yeah . professor b: ok , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on t , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o yeah . it 's the same . professor b: you just mean the log of the of the one up above . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , uh , so that is x times , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , phd d: one one plus n by x . phd e: yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: but , n well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: x times one plus , uh , n uh , n n n minus x ? phd e: the yeah . professor b: and then , uh so that 's log of x plus log of one plus , uh phd e: and the noise signal . professor b: well . is that right ? log of phd d: one plus n by x . phd e: well , mmm professor b: i actually do n't see how you get that . uh . phd e: well , if we apply the log , we have e is n phd c: mmm . phd d: uh , and phd e: uh , log e is equal , oh , to log of x plus n . professor b: yeah . phd e: and , well , phd d: and , log of phd e: uh , we can say that e is equal to log of , um , exponential of x plus exponential of n . professor b: uh phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: well , if e restricts it is y phd e: well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . well , we have that , um we have first that , for example , x is equal , uh well . this is the frequency domain professor b: yeah . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of x omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . no ? no ? oh , maybe it 's i am i 'm problem . professor b: yeah . i mean , just never mind what they are . uh , it 's just if x and n are variables right ? phd d: what is , uh ? professor b: the the the log of x plus n is not the same as the log of e to the x plus e to the n . phd e: yeah . but this i well , i do n't well , uh , professor b: maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but i i do n't know . phd e: i i can do this incorrectly . well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , uh phd d: the log the taylor series expansion for log one plus n by x is professor b: ok . phd c: is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is x professor b: i i phd d: yeah , the first one . phd c: yeah , i guess . phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . yeah . cuz it does n't just follow what 's there . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: it has to be some , uh , taylor series phd d: y yeah . if if you take log x into log one plus n by x , and then expand the log one plus n by x into taylor series phd c: yeah . phd e: now , this is the and then phd c: yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: not exactly . professor b: no . phd e: no , no , no . it 's not the first space . well , we have pfft , uh , em well , we can put that x is equal i is equal to log of , uh , mmm professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: mmm . phd e: well , we can put , uh , this ? phd d: no . professor b: that i mean , that the f top one does not imply the second one . because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: the top ? professor b: i mean , as phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: but we can uh , we we know that , for example , the log of e plus b is equal to log of e plus log to b . professor b: right . phd e: and we can say here , it i professor b: right . so you could s phd c: what is that ? phd e: and we can , uh , put this inside . professor b: yeah . phd e: and then we can , uh , professor b: n no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: yeah . professor b: i do n't see how you get the second expression from the top one . phd d: uh . professor b: the i mean , just more generally here , if you say `` log of , um , a plus b `` , the log of log of a plus b is not or a plus b is not the , um , log of e to the a plus e to the b . phd e: no , no , no , no , no , no , no . this not . professor b: right ? and that 's what you seem to be saying . phd e: no . no . it 's not . but this is the same oh . professor b: right ? cuz you cuz you up here you have the a plus b phd e: no . i say if i apply log , i have , uh , log of e is equal to log of , uh in this side , is equal to log of x professor b: plus n . phd e: plus n . professor b: right . phd e: no ? professor b: right . phd e: right . professor b: and then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: this is right . and then if i apply exponential , to have here e professor b: look . ok , so let 's i mean , c equals a plus b , phd c: it 's log o of capital y . yeah , right . professor b: and then phd c: capital y . phd e: yeah . phd d: x . x . this is x , inside . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd e: we have this , no ? professor b: yeah . that one 's right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: one and phd e: s uh , i th we can put here the set transformation . professor b: oh . i see . phd e: no ? professor b: i see . ok , i understand now . alright , thanks . phd e: yeah . in this case , well , we can put here a y . professor b: ok . so , yeah . it 's just by definition that the individual that the , uh so , capital x is by definition the same as e to the little x because she 's saying that the little x is is the , uh is the log . alright . phd e: now we can put this . professor b: yeah . phd e: no ? professor b: alright . phd e: and here we can multiply by x . professor b: i think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: oh , yes . professor b: so you know which is which . but i i under i understand what you mean now . phd e: yeah , yeah . that 's true . that 's true . professor b: ok . phd e: but this this is correct ? professor b: sure . phd e: and now i can do it , uh pfff ! i can put log of ex plus log professor b: oh . yes . i understand now . and that 's where it comes from . phd e: and this is professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . right . professor b: right . phd e: now it 's correct . professor b: right . ok . thanks . phd e: well . the idea well , we have fixed this equa professor b: ok . so now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , taylor series expansion of this . phd e: yeah . this is another linear relation that this to develop this in vector s taylor series . phd c: yeah , sure . professor b: right . phd e: mm - hmm . and for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um est estimate a pdf for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . mmm ? and when w the way to obtain the pdf for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and then when we have a expression , uh , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . this only that . but the idea is that phd c: and the the model of clean speech is a codebook . right ? phd e: u yeah . we have our codebook with different density gaussian . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: we can expre we can put that the pdf { comment } for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: yeah . phd e: phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: yeah . phd e: i i need to s professor b: yeah . phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: cuz i think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , um , you do n't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not . phd e: yeah . i the clean speech the codebook for clean speech , i am using timit . and i have now , uh , sixty - four gaus - gaussian . professor b: uh - huh . and what are you using for the noisy ? y y doing that strictly phd e: of the noise i estimate the noises wi professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: well , for the noises i only use one gaussian . professor b: and and you and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: hmm . phd e: uh , yes . the first experiment that i do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: yeah . phd e: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is the first experiment . professor b: yeah . phd e: and i fix this for all the all the sentences . uh , because well , the vts methods in fact the first thing that i do is to to obtain , uh , an expression for e probability e expression of of e . that mean that the vts mmm , with the vts we obtain , uh well , we we obtain the means for each gaussian { comment } and the variance . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is one . eh , this is the composition of the dictionary . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this one thing . and the other thing that this with these methods is to , uh , obtain to calculate this value . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: because we can write uh , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: this is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of e minus a function that conditional to e to the t to the noise signal . well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . give px and , uh , p the noise . phd d: x k c noise . professor b: mmm . phd e: and i can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus well , i put before this name , uh and i can calculate this . professor b: what is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: uh , this is the gaussian . professor b: no , no . i 'm sorry . in in the one you pointed at . what 's that variable ? phd e: v uh , this is the phd d: weak . so probably it it would do that . phd e: like this , phd c: it 's one mixture of the model . right ? phd e: but conditional . no , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . it 's modify . uh , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each gaussian . professor b: ok . phd e: no . and now , this weight is different now professor b: yes . phd e: because it 's conditional . and this i need to to calcu i know this professor b: uh - huh . phd e: and i know this because this is from the dictionary that you have . professor b: uh - huh . phd e: i need to calculate this . professor b: yes . phd e: and for calculate this , i have an i i can develop an expression that is phd d: it 's overlapping . phd e: that . i can calculate i can i calculated this value , uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that i calculated before with the vts approximation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and well , normalizing . and i know everything . uh , with the , nnn when i develop this in s taylor taylor series , i ca n't , um , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . now . and this is fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: if i never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that i need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: so , i 'm i 'm not following this perfectly but , um , i are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? and never change throughout anything else ? phd e: yeah . never cha this is one of the approximations that i am doing . professor b: per per per utterance , or per ? phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: per utterance . ok . phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: so it 's done it 's done new for each new utterance . phd e: and th professor b: so this changes the whole mapping for every utterance . phd e: yeah . it 's not yeah . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , the dictionary . professor b: ok . phd e: and the other estimation is when i do the uh on - line estimation , i change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: yeah ? phd e: each time that i detect noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i do it uh again this develop . estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . and with th with this new s new mean and variance i estimate again this . professor b: so you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? uh , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: um , no , no , no . it 's not completely no , it 's i am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . professor b: ok . now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? yeah . i mean , i know you do n't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , uh , um phd e: i estimate mean and variance for each one of the gaussian of the codebook . professor b: no , i 'm talking about the noise . phd e: oh , professor b: there 's only one gaussian . phd e: um . well , only one i am only using only one . professor b: right . phd e: i do n't know i professor b: and you and and it 's , uh , uh right , it 's only it 's only one wait a minute . this is what 's the dimensionality of the gaussian ? this is phd e: uh , it 's in after the mel filter bank . professor b: so this is twenty or something ? phd e: twenty - three . professor b: twenty ? so it 's yeah . so it 's actually forty numbers that you 're getting . yeah , maybe maybe you do n't have a phd e: uh , the original paper say that only one gaussian for the noise . professor b: well , yeah . but , i mean , no no paper is is a bible , phd e: yeah , maybe is n't the right thing . professor b: you know . this is this is , uh phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: the question is , um , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more so , suppose you did this is almost cheating . it certainly is n't real - time . but if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the vad and so forth or i i guess we 're gon na be given even better boundaries than that . and you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? that would be another question . phd e: maybe . professor b: so first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? and the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? um . also another question might be um , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector taylor series ? phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: yeah . it 's quite complicated . professor b: yeah , ok . no , i wo n't ask the next question then . phd e: oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that i am working with vts . professor b: yeah . no , it 's interesting . phd e: uh professor b: uh , w we have n't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: it 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . i do n't know . professor b: right . phd f: great . ok . well , i guess we 're about done . um , so some of the digit forms do n't have digits . uh , we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . but , um , i guess you 've got some . right , morgan ? professor b: i have some . phd f: so , why do n't you go ahead and start . and i think it 's just us down here at this end that have them . phd d: s phd e: um phd f: so . professor b: uh , ok . phd d: s so , we switch off with this phd f: whenever you 're ready . phd d: or n ? phd f: uh , leave it on , phd d: no . ok . phd f: uh , professor b: they prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information . phd f: yeah . phd d: ok . ok . phd f: ok . professor b: ok . s

grad a was working on cheating experiments to study classification of phones for his qualifying exam . grad g fixed a bug in his matlab code for phase normalization and started receiving better results .

what did the professor think about phase normalization ? </s> phd f: ok . professor b: uh . somebody else should run this . i 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , `` well , what do you think about this ? `` you wan na ? phd d: yeah . phd f: should we take turns ? you want me to run it today ? professor b: yeah . why do n't you run it today ? ok . phd f: ok . ok . um . let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . um , i guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . but aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up phd d: mmm . phd f: for today ? no ? ok . so why do n't we just around and people can give updates . phd e: oh . phd f: uh , do you want to start , stephane ? phd c: alright . um . well , the first thing maybe is that the p eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . um . yeah . phd f: this is what what do you , uh what 's in the paper there ? phd c: so it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the aurora . phd f: the one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: right , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: uh - huh . phd c: um yeah . so and the , fff { comment } comments seems from the reviewer are good . so . phd f: hmm . phd c: mmm yeah . phd f: where where 's it gon na be this year ? phd c: it 's , uh , aalborg in denmark . and it 's , phd f: oh , ok . phd c: yeah , september . phd f: mmm . phd c: mmm yeah . then , uh , whhh well , i 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . uh , i 've been trying different slightly slightly different approaches . um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . um , and so i have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . mmm . this actually do n't s does n't seem to help , although it does n't hurt . so . but well , both on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . well , they phd f: are the means pretty different for the two ? phd c: yeah . they can be very different . yeah . mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: so do you maybe make errors in different places ? different kinds of errors ? phd c: i did n't look , uh , more closely . um . it might be , yeah . mm - hmm . um . well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for c - zero and c - one than for the other coefficients . and yeah . and yeah , it the c - one is there are strange strange thing happening with c - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . and phd f: hmm . phd c: so when you look at the trajectory of c - one , it 's has a strange shape and i was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange c - ze c - one shape , uh , which can like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd f: oh . phd c: so which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we do n't frame ev uh , drop everything , but uh , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and mmm . { comment } but i still have to investigate further , i think . um , a third thing is , um , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , i try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . t t um yeah . and then this time constant increases and i have a threshold that professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , i keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when if the utterance is , uh , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: or mmm . uh , well , this does n't help neither , but this does n't hurt . so , well . it seems pretty phd f: was n't there some experiment you were gon na try where you did something differently for each , um , uh i do n't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , fft bin or someth there was something you were gon na uh , { comment } some parameter you were gon na vary depending on the frequency . i do n't know if that was phd c: i guess it was i do n't know . no . u maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different mfcc 's . phd f: for each , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . i i thought , morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . and then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said `` yeah , it does seem like , you know , c - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one `` or , uh , s i ca n't remember exactly what it was now . phd c: mmm . yeah . there uh , actually , yeah . s um , it 's very important to normalize c - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . and , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . and we i think , we kind of know that normalizing c - one does n't help with the current scheme . and and yeah . in my idea , i i was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . um yeah . but maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: um , i i really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . i know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , um , just seeing that each of these things did n't make things better may not be enough . it may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . and if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: hmm . phd c: alright . mmm . yeah . w um , so that 's it , i think , for the on - line normalization . um yeah . i 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , i think i yeah . well , what i did is t is to take , um to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold well , this for each mel band . then put a threshold that 's fifteen db below well , uh , a couple of db below this maximum , professor b: mm - hmm . mmm . phd c: and actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so i was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen db below the maximum energy of the utterance . and yeah . when we look at at the , um , mfcc that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . phd f: hmm . phd c: um . and yeah . and the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: hmm . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen db just fifteen db below the maximum energy . grad a: sorry . phd c: and at least phd f: so why does that m smooth things out ? i do n't i do n't understand that . professor b: well , there 's less difference . right ? phd c: it 's i think , it 's whitening this the portion that are more silent , professor b: cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: huh . oh , ok . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech do n't get much affected anyway by the other noise . and as the noise you add is the same is the shape , it 's also the same . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: so they have the trajectory are very , very similar . and and professor b: so , i mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you do n't do b do badly . the reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . even if the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . and and phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's , phd f: hmm . professor b: uh phd f: so would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: i think it 's i think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: it 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the aurora database . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: if if you compare th the two shut channels of speechdat - car during speech portion , it 's n n n the mfcc are not very different . they are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . and , professor b: yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: uh professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . phd c: ye professor b: right ? phd c: yeah . so it distort the speech . right . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . phd f: so performance went down ? phd c: no . it did n't . but phd f: oh . phd c: yeah . so , but in this case i i really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . i mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: uh , i mean , first place it 's fifteen db , uh , down across the utterance . and maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . secondly , you happened to pick fifteen db phd c: mmm . professor b: and maybe twenty 'd be better , phd c: yeah . professor b: or or twelve . phd c: yeah . right . phd f: so what was the what was the threshold part of it ? was the threshold , uh , how far down ? professor b: yeah . well , he yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . so he was looking he was looking at the peak value . phd f: uh - huh . professor b: right ? and then phd c: uh - huh . phd f: and and so what 's ho i do n't understand . how does it go ? if it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? or if it 's below s phd c: i systematically { comment } add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . phd f: oh , oh . i see . phd c: mmm . phd f: i see . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . yeah . which is not really noise , actually . it 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: to each of the mel filter bank . yeah . phd f: i see . phd c: so , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . i th professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . phd c: mm - hmm . um . yeah . so may well , the this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . and i do n't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or um professor b: or or not constant but but , uh , varying over time in fact is another way to go . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd c: yeah . um professor b: were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? i mean , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: um yeah . it was it was , uh , the same system . mm - hmm . professor b: ok . phd c: it was the same system . mmm . oh , yeah . a third thing is that , um , i play a little bit with the , um finding what was different between , um , and there were a couple of differences , like the lda filters were not the same . um , he had the france telecom blind equalization in the system . um , the number o of mfcc that was were used was different . you used thirteen and we used fifteen . well , a bunch of differences . and , um , actually the result that he he got were much better on ti - digits especially . so i 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . and it seems that the lda filter is is was hurting . um , so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , lda filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . and it makes a big difference , um , on ti - digits trained on clean . uh , if we use the the old lda filter , i mean the lda filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . but and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um . yeah . so now the results are more similar , and i do n't i will not , i think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of mfcc that we keep and other small things that we can i think optimize later on anyway . professor b: sure . but on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . right ? so if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , i mean which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to aurora ? are they they both ? well , i mean phd c: i think yeah . i think th th uh , the new system that i tested is , i guess , closer because it does n't have it have less of of france telecom stuff , phd d: you mean the phd c: i phd d: the whatever you , uh , tested with recently . right ? phd c: mmm ? yeah . phd d: yeah ? professor b: well , no , i i 'm i yeah , you 're trying to add in france telecom . phd c: but , we professor b: tell them about the rest of it . like you said the number of filters might be different or something . right ? or phd d: the number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: cep phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so , i mean , i think we 'd wan na standardize there , would n't we ? phd c: yeah , yeah . professor b: so , sh you guys should pick something phd d: yeah . professor b: and well , all th all three of you . phd d: yeah . phd c: i think we were gon na work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: uh , so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . phd c: so right . yeah . phd d: yeah , so yeah , so yep . phd c: but we will use the the lda filters f derived from clean speech . well , yeah , actually it 's it 's not the the lda filter . phd d: yeah , yeah . so phd c: it 's something that 's also short enough in in latency . phd d: yeah . well . phd c: so . phd d: yeah . so , we have n't w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients , phd c: yeah . phd d: not thirteen ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . well , uh , that 's something 's um . yeah . then professor b: i think as long as you guys agree on it , it does n't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: i think we have a maximum of sixty , uh , features that we 're allowed . so . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . ma - maybe we can i mean , at least , um , i 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once i have this { comment } noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: never tested it with the compensation , but without , uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: yeah . phd d: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen . phd c: yeah . and there is there is also this log energy versus c - zero . phd d: sorry , fifteen . yeah , the log energy versus c - zero . phd c: well . w w if if phd d: uh , that 's that 's the other thing . i mean , without noise compensation certainly c - zero is better than log energy . be - i mean , because the there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: you know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than c - zero . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not for i mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy i mean you get a better performance with log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , i do n't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for c - zero or log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: we can see that . phd c: yeah . phd d: hmm . phd c: mmm . phd f: so do you have more , stephane , or ? phd c: uh , that 's it , i think . mmm . phd f: do you have anything , morgan , or ? professor b: uh , no . i 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . so . phd f: how about you , barry ? grad a: um , still working on my my quals preparation stuff . um , so i 'm i 'm thinking about , um , starting some , uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that i want to classify . so , for example , um , if i know where voicing occurs and everything , um , i would do a phone um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the the , uh the perfect knowledge that i have about voicing . so , um , in particular i was thinking , um , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those lna files , and , um , setting to zero those probabilities that , um that these phones are not voicing . so say , like , i know this particular segment is voicing , um , i would say , uh , go into the corresponding lna file and zonk out the the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced , phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and then see what kinds of improvements i get . and so this would be a useful thing , um , to know in terms of , like , which which , um which of these categories are are good for , um , speech recognition . phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so , that 's i hope to get those , uh those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in july . phd f: so do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: yeah . i i i was thinking ok , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , um , phones . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? and then renormalize . phd f: mmm . grad a: right . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: cool . that will be really interesting to see , you know . so then you 're gon na feed the those into some standard recognizer . grad a: mm - hmm . phd f: uh , wh are you gon na do digits grad a: yeah , m um , well , i 'm gon na f work with timit phd f: or ? with timit . ok . grad a: timit uh , phone recognition with timit . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and , um phd f: oh , so then you 'll feed those sorry . so where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: oh . um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , icsi hybrid , um , recognizer . so maybe , um , chronos phd f: an - and you 're gon na the you 're gon na do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or phone recognition . right , right . phd f: ok , ok . i see . grad a: so . and , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where i can look at whole words . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and i would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , inter - phoneme events . so , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: segment . you know , so something that is transitional in nature . phd f: right . grad a: yeah . phd f: cool . great . grad a: so that 's that 's it . phd f: uh ok . grad a: yeah . phd f: um let 's see , i have n't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . i 've been focusing mainly on meeting recorder stuff . phd c: oh . phd f: so , um , i guess i 'll just pass it on to dave . grad g: uh , ok . well , in my lunch talk last week i i said i 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . it turned out there was a bug in my matlab code . so i tried it again , um , and , um , the results were were better . i got intelligible speech back . but they still were n't as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means . and also i 've been talking to , um , andreas and thilo about the , um , smartkom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the smartkom system . so i 'm gon na be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the smartkom system , i mean . and , um , one of the experiments we 're gon na do is , um , we 're gon na , um , train the a broadcast news net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . um , an - andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the smartkom system interaction is not gon na be exactly conversational . phd f: mm - hmm . grad g: s so actually i was wondering , how long does it take to train that broadcast news net ? professor b: the big one takes a while . yeah . that takes two , three weeks . grad g: two , three weeks . professor b: so but , you know , uh , you can get i do n't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . so , um , you can scale it down by i 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large broadcast news test set training set . i do n't know how much you 'd be training on . grad g: oh . professor b: the full ? grad g: ok . professor b: uh , i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: ok . professor b: and it 'd be nearly as good . so . grad g: ok . professor b: yeah . also , i guess we had we 've had these , uh , little di discussions i guess you ha have n't had a chance to work with it too much about about , uh uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . so , i mean , i i guess that was something i could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh and not not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . but it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . but grad g: and , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization so i did two experiments , and one is so , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . and so i thought at first , um , that , uh , what i should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . um , but i actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in matlab than i did not unwrapping at all . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . p so . grad g: and that 's all i have to say . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . so i 'm i 'm still hopeful that that i mean , we we do n't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . i mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it is n't the right thing to do . but , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . one one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh in rectangular kind of coordinates . and the other is to , uh , do a taylor series well . so you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . so then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . we do n't really know that . the other thing we talked a little bit about was taylor series expansion . and , um , uh , actually i was talking to dick karp about it a little bit , and and and , since i got thinking about it , and and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , i think , uh we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but i think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . and and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one it should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: ok . professor b: and so forth . so if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges . grad g: oh . professor b: so you have to do some scaling . but that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of k times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of k plus log of the complex number . grad g: oh . professor b: uh , so there 's grad g: ok . professor b: converges . but . phd f: hmm . ok . how about you , sunil ? phd d: so , um , i 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , wiener filtering for this aurora task . and , uh , i i actually thought it was it was doing fine when i tested it once . i it 's , like , using a small section of the code . and then i ran the whole recognition experiment with italian and i got , like , worse results than not using it . then i so , i 've been trying to find where the problem came from . and then it looks like i have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . and , ugh ! i i mean , i uh , it actually i it actually made the whole thing worse . i was looking at the spectrograms that i got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . like , when i professor b: i i missed the v i 'm sorry , i was i was distracted . i missed the very first sentence . so then , i 'm a little lost on the rest . phd d: oh , i mean professor b: what what what ? phd d: oh , yeah . i actually implemented the wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately . professor b: yeah , i see . oh , ok . phd d: and it it it gave , like i just got the signal out and it it was ok . so , i plugged it in somewhere and then i mean , it 's like i had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . and then i in that process i messed it up somewhere . professor b: ok . phd d: so . so , it was real i mean , i thought it was all fine and then i ran it , and i got something worse than not using it . so , i was like i 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: uh - huh . phd d: and it seems to be , like , somewhere professor b: ok . phd d: some silly stuff . and , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh well , hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then i was t talking wi professor b: right . yeah . as as he is wont to do . yeah . phd d: uh , yeah . so i was actually that day i was thinking about d doing something about the wiener filtering , and then carlos matter of stuff . and then he showed up and then i told him . and then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then that was something which came up . and then , um so , uh , i 'm actually , uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , w wiener filtering because that is a m modified wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the wiener filter . so instead of designing our own new wiener filters , i may just use one of those carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing the wiener filter professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: but @ @ s so , i do n't know , i was h i 'm i 'm i 'm , like that so that is the next thing . once this i once i sort this pro uh , problem out maybe i 'll just go into that also . and the the other thing was about the subspace approach . so , um , i , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . so just i just @ @ some small block of things which i needed to put together for the subspace approach . and i 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . and , um , uh yeah . i guess yep . i guess that 's it . and , uh , th th that 's where i am right now . so . phd f: oh . how about you , carmen ? phd e: mmm . i 'm working with vts . um , i do several experiment with the spanish database first , only with vts and nothing more . not vad , no lda , nothing more . phd f: what what is vts again ? phd d: new phd e: eh , vectorial taylor series . phd f: oh , yes . phd e: to remove the noise too . phd f: right , right . i think i ask you that every single meeting , do n't i ? phd e: what ? phd f: i ask you that question every meeting . phd e: yeah . professor b: so , that 'd be good from for analysis . phd e: if well professor b: it 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different different times . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: `` what is vts ? `` phd e: vts . i 'm sor well , um , the question is that well . remove some noise but not too much . and when we put the m m the , em , vad , the result is better . and we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without vts . no , no . professor b: i see . so that @ @ { comment } given that you 're using the vad also , the effect of the vts is not so far phd e: is not . professor b: do you how much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: pfft . i do n't know because phd c: are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: hhh , phd c: or ? or i ? phd e: uh , i do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . phd c: yeah . hmm . phd e: and also i did some experiment , uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . and , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different they all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: mmm . phd e: mmm . no , i do that two t did two time . phd c: but they use every all use a different one . professor b: i have an idea . if if , uh , uh , y you 're right . i mean , each of these require this . um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? s so , e um , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: first place , i mean even if ultimately we would n't be given the boundaries , uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . i mean , how much is the poor you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um . so maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . phd e: yeah . another thing is the , em the codebook , the initial codebook . that maybe , well , it 's too clean and professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: cuz it 's a i do n't know . the methods if you want , you c i can say something about the method . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . in the because it 's a little bit different of the other method . well , we have if this if this is the noise signal , uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . now , we have something like this . and the idea of these methods is to n given a , um professor b: phd e: how do you say ? i will read because it 's better for my english . i i given is the estimate of the pdf of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . and the clean speech the statistic of the clean speech is from a codebook . mmm ? this is the idea . well , like , this relation is not linear . the methods propose to develop this in a vectorial taylor series approximation . professor b: i i 'm actually just confused about the equations you have up there . so , uh , the top equation is is is phd e: no , this in the it 's this is the log domain . i i must to say that . professor b: which is which is the log domain ? phd e: is the t is egual { comment } is equal to , uh , log of professor b: and but y is what ? y of the spectrum phd e: uh , this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . professor b: no , no . the top y is what ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: is that power spectrum ? phd e: uh , this is the noisy speech . phd c: p s this professor b: no , is that power spectrum ? is it ? phd c: yeah . i guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech . phd e: yeah . it 's the power spectrum . professor b: oh , ok . phd c: yeah . and professor b: so that 's uh phd e: this is the noisy yeah , it 's professor b: ok . phd e: of the value professor b: yeah , ok . so this it 's the magnitude squared or something . phd e: yeah . professor b: ok , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on t , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o yeah . it 's the same . professor b: you just mean the log of the of the one up above . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , uh , so that is x times , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , phd d: one one plus n by x . phd e: yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: but , n well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: x times one plus , uh , n uh , n n n minus x ? phd e: the yeah . professor b: and then , uh so that 's log of x plus log of one plus , uh phd e: and the noise signal . professor b: well . is that right ? log of phd d: one plus n by x . phd e: well , mmm professor b: i actually do n't see how you get that . uh . phd e: well , if we apply the log , we have e is n phd c: mmm . phd d: uh , and phd e: uh , log e is equal , oh , to log of x plus n . professor b: yeah . phd e: and , well , phd d: and , log of phd e: uh , we can say that e is equal to log of , um , exponential of x plus exponential of n . professor b: uh phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: well , if e restricts it is y phd e: well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . well , we have that , um we have first that , for example , x is equal , uh well . this is the frequency domain professor b: yeah . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of x omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . no ? no ? oh , maybe it 's i am i 'm problem . professor b: yeah . i mean , just never mind what they are . uh , it 's just if x and n are variables right ? phd d: what is , uh ? professor b: the the the log of x plus n is not the same as the log of e to the x plus e to the n . phd e: yeah . but this i well , i do n't well , uh , professor b: maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but i i do n't know . phd e: i i can do this incorrectly . well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , uh phd d: the log the taylor series expansion for log one plus n by x is professor b: ok . phd c: is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is x professor b: i i phd d: yeah , the first one . phd c: yeah , i guess . phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . yeah . cuz it does n't just follow what 's there . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: it has to be some , uh , taylor series phd d: y yeah . if if you take log x into log one plus n by x , and then expand the log one plus n by x into taylor series phd c: yeah . phd e: now , this is the and then phd c: yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: not exactly . professor b: no . phd e: no , no , no . it 's not the first space . well , we have pfft , uh , em well , we can put that x is equal i is equal to log of , uh , mmm professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: mmm . phd e: well , we can put , uh , this ? phd d: no . professor b: that i mean , that the f top one does not imply the second one . because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: the top ? professor b: i mean , as phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: but we can uh , we we know that , for example , the log of e plus b is equal to log of e plus log to b . professor b: right . phd e: and we can say here , it i professor b: right . so you could s phd c: what is that ? phd e: and we can , uh , put this inside . professor b: yeah . phd e: and then we can , uh , professor b: n no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: yeah . professor b: i do n't see how you get the second expression from the top one . phd d: uh . professor b: the i mean , just more generally here , if you say `` log of , um , a plus b `` , the log of log of a plus b is not or a plus b is not the , um , log of e to the a plus e to the b . phd e: no , no , no , no , no , no , no . this not . professor b: right ? and that 's what you seem to be saying . phd e: no . no . it 's not . but this is the same oh . professor b: right ? cuz you cuz you up here you have the a plus b phd e: no . i say if i apply log , i have , uh , log of e is equal to log of , uh in this side , is equal to log of x professor b: plus n . phd e: plus n . professor b: right . phd e: no ? professor b: right . phd e: right . professor b: and then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: this is right . and then if i apply exponential , to have here e professor b: look . ok , so let 's i mean , c equals a plus b , phd c: it 's log o of capital y . yeah , right . professor b: and then phd c: capital y . phd e: yeah . phd d: x . x . this is x , inside . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd e: we have this , no ? professor b: yeah . that one 's right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: one and phd e: s uh , i th we can put here the set transformation . professor b: oh . i see . phd e: no ? professor b: i see . ok , i understand now . alright , thanks . phd e: yeah . in this case , well , we can put here a y . professor b: ok . so , yeah . it 's just by definition that the individual that the , uh so , capital x is by definition the same as e to the little x because she 's saying that the little x is is the , uh is the log . alright . phd e: now we can put this . professor b: yeah . phd e: no ? professor b: alright . phd e: and here we can multiply by x . professor b: i think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: oh , yes . professor b: so you know which is which . but i i under i understand what you mean now . phd e: yeah , yeah . that 's true . that 's true . professor b: ok . phd e: but this this is correct ? professor b: sure . phd e: and now i can do it , uh pfff ! i can put log of ex plus log professor b: oh . yes . i understand now . and that 's where it comes from . phd e: and this is professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . right . professor b: right . phd e: now it 's correct . professor b: right . ok . thanks . phd e: well . the idea well , we have fixed this equa professor b: ok . so now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , taylor series expansion of this . phd e: yeah . this is another linear relation that this to develop this in vector s taylor series . phd c: yeah , sure . professor b: right . phd e: mm - hmm . and for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um est estimate a pdf for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . mmm ? and when w the way to obtain the pdf for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and then when we have a expression , uh , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . this only that . but the idea is that phd c: and the the model of clean speech is a codebook . right ? phd e: u yeah . we have our codebook with different density gaussian . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: we can expre we can put that the pdf { comment } for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: yeah . phd e: phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: yeah . phd e: i i need to s professor b: yeah . phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: cuz i think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , um , you do n't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not . phd e: yeah . i the clean speech the codebook for clean speech , i am using timit . and i have now , uh , sixty - four gaus - gaussian . professor b: uh - huh . and what are you using for the noisy ? y y doing that strictly phd e: of the noise i estimate the noises wi professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: well , for the noises i only use one gaussian . professor b: and and you and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: hmm . phd e: uh , yes . the first experiment that i do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: yeah . phd e: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is the first experiment . professor b: yeah . phd e: and i fix this for all the all the sentences . uh , because well , the vts methods in fact the first thing that i do is to to obtain , uh , an expression for e probability e expression of of e . that mean that the vts mmm , with the vts we obtain , uh well , we we obtain the means for each gaussian { comment } and the variance . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is one . eh , this is the composition of the dictionary . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this one thing . and the other thing that this with these methods is to , uh , obtain to calculate this value . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: because we can write uh , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: this is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of e minus a function that conditional to e to the t to the noise signal . well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . give px and , uh , p the noise . phd d: x k c noise . professor b: mmm . phd e: and i can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus well , i put before this name , uh and i can calculate this . professor b: what is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: uh , this is the gaussian . professor b: no , no . i 'm sorry . in in the one you pointed at . what 's that variable ? phd e: v uh , this is the phd d: weak . so probably it it would do that . phd e: like this , phd c: it 's one mixture of the model . right ? phd e: but conditional . no , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . it 's modify . uh , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each gaussian . professor b: ok . phd e: no . and now , this weight is different now professor b: yes . phd e: because it 's conditional . and this i need to to calcu i know this professor b: uh - huh . phd e: and i know this because this is from the dictionary that you have . professor b: uh - huh . phd e: i need to calculate this . professor b: yes . phd e: and for calculate this , i have an i i can develop an expression that is phd d: it 's overlapping . phd e: that . i can calculate i can i calculated this value , uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that i calculated before with the vts approximation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and well , normalizing . and i know everything . uh , with the , nnn when i develop this in s taylor taylor series , i ca n't , um , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . now . and this is fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: if i never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that i need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: so , i 'm i 'm not following this perfectly but , um , i are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? and never change throughout anything else ? phd e: yeah . never cha this is one of the approximations that i am doing . professor b: per per per utterance , or per ? phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: per utterance . ok . phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: so it 's done it 's done new for each new utterance . phd e: and th professor b: so this changes the whole mapping for every utterance . phd e: yeah . it 's not yeah . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , the dictionary . professor b: ok . phd e: and the other estimation is when i do the uh on - line estimation , i change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: yeah ? phd e: each time that i detect noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i do it uh again this develop . estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . and with th with this new s new mean and variance i estimate again this . professor b: so you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? uh , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: um , no , no , no . it 's not completely no , it 's i am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . professor b: ok . now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? yeah . i mean , i know you do n't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , uh , um phd e: i estimate mean and variance for each one of the gaussian of the codebook . professor b: no , i 'm talking about the noise . phd e: oh , professor b: there 's only one gaussian . phd e: um . well , only one i am only using only one . professor b: right . phd e: i do n't know i professor b: and you and and it 's , uh , uh right , it 's only it 's only one wait a minute . this is what 's the dimensionality of the gaussian ? this is phd e: uh , it 's in after the mel filter bank . professor b: so this is twenty or something ? phd e: twenty - three . professor b: twenty ? so it 's yeah . so it 's actually forty numbers that you 're getting . yeah , maybe maybe you do n't have a phd e: uh , the original paper say that only one gaussian for the noise . professor b: well , yeah . but , i mean , no no paper is is a bible , phd e: yeah , maybe is n't the right thing . professor b: you know . this is this is , uh phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: the question is , um , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more so , suppose you did this is almost cheating . it certainly is n't real - time . but if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the vad and so forth or i i guess we 're gon na be given even better boundaries than that . and you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? that would be another question . phd e: maybe . professor b: so first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? and the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? um . also another question might be um , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector taylor series ? phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: yeah . it 's quite complicated . professor b: yeah , ok . no , i wo n't ask the next question then . phd e: oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that i am working with vts . professor b: yeah . no , it 's interesting . phd e: uh professor b: uh , w we have n't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: it 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . i do n't know . professor b: right . phd f: great . ok . well , i guess we 're about done . um , so some of the digit forms do n't have digits . uh , we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . but , um , i guess you 've got some . right , morgan ? professor b: i have some . phd f: so , why do n't you go ahead and start . and i think it 's just us down here at this end that have them . phd d: s phd e: um phd f: so . professor b: uh , ok . phd d: s so , we switch off with this phd f: whenever you 're ready . phd d: or n ? phd f: uh , leave it on , phd d: no . ok . phd f: uh , professor b: they prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information . phd f: yeah . phd d: ok . ok . phd f: ok . professor b: ok . s

the professor thought that the broadcast news net could be scaled down . the big one took two to three weeks . phase normalization experiments relied on it . he also suggested that the math can be simplified to just complex numbers .

what did grad a think about the experiments grad a was running ? </s> phd f: ok . professor b: uh . somebody else should run this . i 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , `` well , what do you think about this ? `` you wan na ? phd d: yeah . phd f: should we take turns ? you want me to run it today ? professor b: yeah . why do n't you run it today ? ok . phd f: ok . ok . um . let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about . um , i guess there 's the usual updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . but aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up phd d: mmm . phd f: for today ? no ? ok . so why do n't we just around and people can give updates . phd e: oh . phd f: uh , do you want to start , stephane ? phd c: alright . um . well , the first thing maybe is that the p eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . um . yeah . phd f: this is what what do you , uh what 's in the paper there ? phd c: so it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the aurora . phd f: the one that we s we submitted the last round ? phd c: right , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: uh - huh . phd c: um yeah . so and the , fff { comment } comments seems from the reviewer are good . so . phd f: hmm . phd c: mmm yeah . phd f: where where 's it gon na be this year ? phd c: it 's , uh , aalborg in denmark . and it 's , phd f: oh , ok . phd c: yeah , september . phd f: mmm . phd c: mmm yeah . then , uh , whhh well , i 've been working on on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . uh , i 've been trying different slightly slightly different approaches . um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . um , and so i have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . mmm . this actually do n't s does n't seem to help , although it does n't hurt . so . but well , both on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . well , they phd f: are the means pretty different for the two ? phd c: yeah . they can be very different . yeah . mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: so do you maybe make errors in different places ? different kinds of errors ? phd c: i did n't look , uh , more closely . um . it might be , yeah . mm - hmm . um . well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for for c - zero and c - one than for the other coefficients . and yeah . and yeah , it the c - one is there are strange strange thing happening with c - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the the silence portion is can be different . and phd f: hmm . phd c: so when you look at the trajectory of c - one , it 's has a strange shape and i was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the the strange c - ze c - one shape , uh , which can like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else . phd f: oh . phd c: so which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we do n't frame ev uh , drop everything , but uh , this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and mmm . { comment } but i still have to investigate further , i think . um , a third thing is , um , that instead of t having a fixed time constant , i try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . t t um yeah . and then this time constant increases and i have a threshold that professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , i keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when if the utterance is , uh , long enough to to continue to adapt after , like , one second professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: or mmm . uh , well , this does n't help neither , but this does n't hurt . so , well . it seems pretty phd f: was n't there some experiment you were gon na try where you did something differently for each , um , uh i do n't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , fft bin or someth there was something you were gon na uh , { comment } some parameter you were gon na vary depending on the frequency . i do n't know if that was phd c: i guess it was i do n't know . no . u maybe it 's this this idea of having different on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different mfcc 's . phd f: for each , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . i i thought , morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . and then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said `` yeah , it does seem like , you know , c - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one `` or , uh , s i ca n't remember exactly what it was now . phd c: mmm . yeah . there uh , actually , yeah . s um , it 's very important to normalize c - zero and much less to normalize the other coefficients . and , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . and we i think , we kind of know that normalizing c - one does n't help with the current scheme . and and yeah . in my idea , i i was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . um yeah . but maybe it 's not so so easy to professor b: um , i i really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . i know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but sometimes , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , um , just seeing that each of these things did n't make things better may not be enough . it may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . and if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: hmm . phd c: alright . mmm . yeah . w um , so that 's it , i think , for the on - line normalization . um yeah . i 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , i think i yeah . well , what i did is t is to take , um to measure the average no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold well , this for each mel band . then put a threshold that 's fifteen db below well , uh , a couple of db below this maximum , professor b: mm - hmm . mmm . phd c: and actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so i was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen db below the maximum energy of the utterance . and yeah . when we look at at the , um , mfcc that result from this , they are a lot more smoother . um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two . phd f: hmm . phd c: um . and yeah . and the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse phd f: hmm . phd c: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen db just fifteen db below the maximum energy . grad a: sorry . phd c: and at least phd f: so why does that m smooth things out ? i do n't i do n't understand that . professor b: well , there 's less difference . right ? phd c: it 's i think , it 's whitening this the portion that are more silent , professor b: cuz it 's phd c: as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy , it whitens everything phd f: huh . oh , ok . phd c: and and the high - energy portion of the speech do n't get much affected anyway by the other noise . and as the noise you add is the same is the shape , it 's also the same . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: so they have the trajectory are very , very similar . and and professor b: so , i mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd you know , given enough training data you do n't do b do badly . the reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because it 's different in training and test . even if the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . and and phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you the the only noise to to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's , phd f: hmm . professor b: uh phd f: so would that be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's a kind of smoothing , phd c: i think it 's i think it 's different . professor b: but phd c: it 's it 's something that yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the aurora database . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: if if you compare th the two shut channels of speechdat - car during speech portion , it 's n n n the mfcc are not very different . they are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . and , professor b: yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors , phd c: uh professor b: which means that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , are are hurting your recognition . phd c: ye professor b: right ? phd c: yeah . so it distort the speech . right . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . phd f: so performance went down ? phd c: no . it did n't . but phd f: oh . phd c: yeah . so , but in this case i i really expect that maybe the the two these two stream of features , they are very different . i mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them professor b: well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it . phd c: or professor b: uh , i mean , first place it 's fifteen db , uh , down across the utterance . and maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . secondly , you happened to pick fifteen db phd c: mmm . professor b: and maybe twenty 'd be better , phd c: yeah . professor b: or or twelve . phd c: yeah . right . phd f: so what was the what was the threshold part of it ? was the threshold , uh , how far down ? professor b: yeah . well , he yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . so he was looking he was looking at the peak value . phd f: uh - huh . professor b: right ? and then phd c: uh - huh . phd f: and and so what 's ho i do n't understand . how does it go ? if it if if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? or if it 's below s phd c: i systematically { comment } add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just some kind of threshold below the peak . phd f: oh , oh . i see . phd c: mmm . phd f: i see . professor b: yeah . phd c: um . yeah . which is not really noise , actually . it 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: to each of the mel filter bank . yeah . phd f: i see . phd c: so , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . i th professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the the little variation tends to go away . phd c: mm - hmm . um . yeah . so may well , the this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . and i do n't know , maybe a constant noise addition would would be fine also , or um professor b: or or not constant but but , uh , varying over time in fact is another way to go . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: um . phd c: yeah . um professor b: were you using the the normalization in addition to this ? i mean , what was the rest of the system ? phd c: um yeah . it was it was , uh , the same system . mm - hmm . professor b: ok . phd c: it was the same system . mmm . oh , yeah . a third thing is that , um , i play a little bit with the , um finding what was different between , um , and there were a couple of differences , like the lda filters were not the same . um , he had the france telecom blind equalization in the system . um , the number o of mfcc that was were used was different . you used thirteen and we used fifteen . well , a bunch of differences . and , um , actually the result that he he got were much better on ti - digits especially . so i 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . and it seems that the lda filter is is was hurting . um , so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , lda filter that that 's derived from noisy speech is not more anymore optimal . and it makes a big difference , um , on ti - digits trained on clean . uh , if we use the the old lda filter , i mean the lda filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . but and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um . yeah . so now the results are more similar , and i do n't i will not , i think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of mfcc that we keep and other small things that we can i think optimize later on anyway . professor b: sure . but on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece that we 're not changing . right ? so if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , i mean which which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to aurora ? are they they both ? well , i mean phd c: i think yeah . i think th th uh , the new system that i tested is , i guess , closer because it does n't have it have less of of france telecom stuff , phd d: you mean the phd c: i phd d: the whatever you , uh , tested with recently . right ? phd c: mmm ? yeah . phd d: yeah ? professor b: well , no , i i 'm i yeah , you 're trying to add in france telecom . phd c: but , we professor b: tell them about the rest of it . like you said the number of filters might be different or something . right ? or phd d: the number of cepstral coefficients is what ? professor b: cep phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . so , i mean , i think we 'd wan na standardize there , would n't we ? phd c: yeah , yeah . professor b: so , sh you guys should pick something phd d: yeah . professor b: and well , all th all three of you . phd d: yeah . phd c: i think we were gon na work with with this or this new system , or with phd d: uh , so the the right now , the the system that is there in the what we have in the repositories , with uses fifteen . phd c: so right . yeah . phd d: yeah , so yeah , so yep . phd c: but we will use the the lda filters f derived from clean speech . well , yeah , actually it 's it 's not the the lda filter . phd d: yeah , yeah . so phd c: it 's something that 's also short enough in in latency . phd d: yeah . well . phd c: so . phd d: yeah . so , we have n't w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients , phd c: yeah . phd d: not thirteen ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . well , uh , that 's something 's um . yeah . then professor b: i think as long as you guys agree on it , it does n't matter . phd d: mmm professor b: i think we have a maximum of sixty , uh , features that we 're allowed . so . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . ma - maybe we can i mean , at least , um , i 'll t s run some experiments to see whether once i have this { comment } noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: never tested it with the compensation , but without , uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen , phd c: yeah . phd d: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen . phd c: yeah . and there is there is also this log energy versus c - zero . phd d: sorry , fifteen . yeah , the log energy versus c - zero . phd c: well . w w if if phd d: uh , that 's that 's the other thing . i mean , without noise compensation certainly c - zero is better than log energy . be - i mean , because the there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: you know , always for the matched condition , you always get a slightly better performance for log energy than c - zero . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not for i mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy i mean you get a better performance with log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , i do n't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for c - zero or log energy . phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: we can see that . phd c: yeah . phd d: hmm . phd c: mmm . phd f: so do you have more , stephane , or ? phd c: uh , that 's it , i think . mmm . phd f: do you have anything , morgan , or ? professor b: uh , no . i 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . so . phd f: how about you , barry ? grad a: um , still working on my my quals preparation stuff . um , so i 'm i 'm thinking about , um , starting some , uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that i want to classify . so , for example , um , if i know where voicing occurs and everything , um , i would do a phone um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the the , uh the perfect knowledge that i have about voicing . so , um , in particular i was thinking , um , in in the hybrid framework , just taking those lna files , and , um , setting to zero those probabilities that , um that these phones are not voicing . so say , like , i know this particular segment is voicing , um , i would say , uh , go into the corresponding lna file and zonk out the the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced , phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and then see what kinds of improvements i get . and so this would be a useful thing , um , to know in terms of , like , which which , um which of these categories are are good for , um , speech recognition . phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so , that 's i hope to get those , uh those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in july . phd f: so do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? grad a: yeah . i i i was thinking ok , so just set to set to some really low number , the the non - voiced , um , phones . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? and then renormalize . phd f: mmm . grad a: right . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: cool . that will be really interesting to see , you know . so then you 're gon na feed the those into some standard recognizer . grad a: mm - hmm . phd f: uh , wh are you gon na do digits grad a: yeah , m um , well , i 'm gon na f work with timit phd f: or ? with timit . ok . grad a: timit uh , phone recognition with timit . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and , um phd f: oh , so then you 'll feed those sorry . so where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ? grad a: oh . um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , icsi hybrid , um , recognizer . so maybe , um , chronos phd f: an - and you 're gon na the you 're gon na do phone recognition with that ? grad a: or phone recognition . right , right . phd f: ok , ok . i see . grad a: so . and , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where i can look at whole words . phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: and i would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , inter - phoneme events . so , like , this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic phd f: mm - hmm . grad a: segment . you know , so something that is transitional in nature . phd f: right . grad a: yeah . phd f: cool . great . grad a: so that 's that 's it . phd f: uh ok . grad a: yeah . phd f: um let 's see , i have n't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . i 've been focusing mainly on meeting recorder stuff . phd c: oh . phd f: so , um , i guess i 'll just pass it on to dave . grad g: uh , ok . well , in my lunch talk last week i i said i 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . it turned out there was a bug in my matlab code . so i tried it again , um , and , um , the results were were better . i got intelligible speech back . but they still were n't as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means . and also i 've been talking to , um , andreas and thilo about the , um , smartkom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the smartkom system . so i 'm gon na be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far - mike system for the smartkom system , i mean . and , um , one of the experiments we 're gon na do is , um , we 're gon na , um , train the a broadcast news net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . um , an - andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like these digit readings , because he feels that the smartkom system interaction is not gon na be exactly conversational . phd f: mm - hmm . grad g: s so actually i was wondering , how long does it take to train that broadcast news net ? professor b: the big one takes a while . yeah . that takes two , three weeks . grad g: two , three weeks . professor b: so but , you know , uh , you can get i do n't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . so , um , you can scale it down by i 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large broadcast news test set training set . i do n't know how much you 'd be training on . grad g: oh . professor b: the full ? grad g: ok . professor b: uh , i so if you trained on half as much and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth the amount of time grad g: ok . professor b: and it 'd be nearly as good . so . grad g: ok . professor b: yeah . also , i guess we had we 've had these , uh , little di discussions i guess you ha have n't had a chance to work with it too much about about , uh uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . so , i mean , i i guess that was something i could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh and not not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . but it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum . but grad g: and , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization so i did two experiments , and one is so , phases get added , modulo two pi , and because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . and so i thought at first , um , that , uh , what i should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . um , but i actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in matlab than i did not unwrapping at all . phd d: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . p so . grad g: and that 's all i have to say . phd f: hmm . professor b: yeah . so i 'm i 'm still hopeful that that i mean , we we do n't even know if the phase is something the average phase is something that we do want to remove . i mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it is n't the right thing to do . but , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . one one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh in rectangular kind of coordinates . and the other is to , uh , do a taylor series well . so you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum the average complex spectrum um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . so then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . we do n't really know that . the other thing we talked a little bit about was taylor series expansion . and , um , uh , actually i was talking to dick karp about it a little bit , and and and , since i got thinking about it , and and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , i think , uh we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but i think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're taking the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because the taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and and so forth . and and so if if you have a a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one it should be right around one , if it 's cuz it 's a expansion of log one one minus epsilon or o is is one plus epsilon , or is it one plus ? well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three , grad g: ok . professor b: and so forth . so if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges . grad g: oh . professor b: so you have to do some scaling . but that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of of k times a complex number , then you can just that 's the same as log of k plus log of the complex number . grad g: oh . professor b: uh , so there 's grad g: ok . professor b: converges . but . phd f: hmm . ok . how about you , sunil ? phd d: so , um , i 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , wiener filtering for this aurora task . and , uh , i i actually thought it was it was doing fine when i tested it once . i it 's , like , using a small section of the code . and then i ran the whole recognition experiment with italian and i got , like , worse results than not using it . then i so , i 've been trying to find where the problem came from . and then it looks like i have some problem in the way there is some some very silly bug somewhere . and , ugh ! i i mean , i uh , it actually i it actually made the whole thing worse . i was looking at the spectrograms that i got and it 's , like w it 's it 's very horrible . like , when i professor b: i i missed the v i 'm sorry , i was i was distracted . i missed the very first sentence . so then , i 'm a little lost on the rest . phd d: oh , i mean professor b: what what what ? phd d: oh , yeah . i actually implemented the wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately . professor b: yeah , i see . oh , ok . phd d: and it it it gave , like i just got the signal out and it it was ok . so , i plugged it in somewhere and then i mean , it 's like i had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . and then i in that process i messed it up somewhere . professor b: ok . phd d: so . so , it was real i mean , i thought it was all fine and then i ran it , and i got something worse than not using it . so , i was like i 'm trying to find where the m m problem came , professor b: uh - huh . phd d: and it seems to be , like , somewhere professor b: ok . phd d: some silly stuff . and , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh well , hynek showed up one suddenly on one day and then i was t talking wi professor b: right . yeah . as as he is wont to do . yeah . phd d: uh , yeah . so i was actually that day i was thinking about d doing something about the wiener filtering , and then carlos matter of stuff . and then he showed up and then i told him . and then he gave me a whole bunch of filters what carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then that was something which came up . and then , um so , uh , i 'm actually , uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , w wiener filtering because that is a m modified wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses adjacent frames also in designing the wiener filter . so instead of designing our own new wiener filters , i may just use one of those carlos filters in in this implementation professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: and see whether it it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing the wiener filter professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: but @ @ s so , i do n't know , i was h i 'm i 'm i 'm , like that so that is the next thing . once this i once i sort this pro uh , problem out maybe i 'll just go into that also . and the the other thing was about the subspace approach . so , um , i , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . so just i just @ @ some small block of things which i needed to put together for the subspace approach . and i 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . and , um , uh yeah . i guess yep . i guess that 's it . and , uh , th th that 's where i am right now . so . phd f: oh . how about you , carmen ? phd e: mmm . i 'm working with vts . um , i do several experiment with the spanish database first , only with vts and nothing more . not vad , no lda , nothing more . phd f: what what is vts again ? phd d: new phd e: eh , vectorial taylor series . phd f: oh , yes . phd e: to remove the noise too . phd f: right , right . i think i ask you that every single meeting , do n't i ? phd e: what ? phd f: i ask you that question every meeting . phd e: yeah . professor b: so , that 'd be good from for analysis . phd e: if well professor b: it 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different different times . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: `` what is vts ? `` phd e: vts . i 'm sor well , um , the question is that well . remove some noise but not too much . and when we put the m m the , em , vad , the result is better . and we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without vts . no , no . professor b: i see . so that @ @ { comment } given that you 're using the vad also , the effect of the vts is not so far phd e: is not . professor b: do you how much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? or how much do you think is intrinsic to ? phd e: pfft . i do n't know because phd c: are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation phd e: hhh , phd c: or ? or i ? phd e: uh , i do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise . phd c: yeah . hmm . phd e: and also i did some experiment , uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . and , well , it 's a little bit better but not n phd c: maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different they all need some some noise noise spectra phd d: mmm . phd e: mmm . no , i do that two t did two time . phd c: but they use every all use a different one . professor b: i have an idea . if if , uh , uh , y you 're right . i mean , each of these require this . um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using known sections of nonspeech for the estimation ? phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: right ? s so , e um , phd c: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: first place , i mean even if ultimately we would n't be given the boundaries , uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . i mean , how much is the poor you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately finding enough regions that that are really n noise ? phd d: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um . so maybe if you tested it using that , you 'd have more reliable stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps . phd e: yeah . another thing is the , em the codebook , the initial codebook . that maybe , well , it 's too clean and professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: cuz it 's a i do n't know . the methods if you want , you c i can say something about the method . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . in the because it 's a little bit different of the other method . well , we have if this if this is the noise signal , uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . now , we have something like this . and the idea of these methods is to n given a , um professor b: phd e: how do you say ? i will read because it 's better for my english . i i given is the estimate of the pdf of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . and the clean speech the statistic of the clean speech is from a codebook . mmm ? this is the idea . well , like , this relation is not linear . the methods propose to develop this in a vectorial taylor series approximation . professor b: i i 'm actually just confused about the equations you have up there . so , uh , the top equation is is is phd e: no , this in the it 's this is the log domain . i i must to say that . professor b: which is which is the log domain ? phd e: is the t is egual { comment } is equal to , uh , log of professor b: and but y is what ? y of the spectrum phd e: uh , this this is this professor b: or ? phd e: and this is this . professor b: no , no . the top y is what ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: is that power spectrum ? phd e: uh , this is the noisy speech . phd c: p s this professor b: no , is that power spectrum ? is it ? phd c: yeah . i guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech . phd e: yeah . it 's the power spectrum . professor b: oh , ok . phd c: yeah . and professor b: so that 's uh phd e: this is the noisy yeah , it 's professor b: ok . phd e: of the value professor b: yeah , ok . so this it 's the magnitude squared or something . phd e: yeah . professor b: ok , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have you you put the depends on t , but b all of this is just you just mean phd e: w o yeah . it 's the same . professor b: you just mean the log of the of the one up above . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , uh , so that is x times , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , phd d: one one plus n by x . phd e: yeah , maybe professor b: o phd e: but , n well , y we can expre we can put this expression professor b: x times one plus , uh , n uh , n n n minus x ? phd e: the yeah . professor b: and then , uh so that 's log of x plus log of one plus , uh phd e: and the noise signal . professor b: well . is that right ? log of phd d: one plus n by x . phd e: well , mmm professor b: i actually do n't see how you get that . uh . phd e: well , if we apply the log , we have e is n phd c: mmm . phd d: uh , and phd e: uh , log e is equal , oh , to log of x plus n . professor b: yeah . phd e: and , well , phd d: and , log of phd e: uh , we can say that e is equal to log of , um , exponential of x plus exponential of n . professor b: uh phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: no . phd d: no . professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: well , if e restricts it is y phd e: well , this is this is in the ti the time domain . well , we have that , um we have first that , for example , x is equal , uh well . this is the frequency domain professor b: yeah . phd e: and we can put u that n the log domain log of x omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . no ? no ? oh , maybe it 's i am i 'm problem . professor b: yeah . i mean , just never mind what they are . uh , it 's just if x and n are variables right ? phd d: what is , uh ? professor b: the the the log of x plus n is not the same as the log of e to the x plus e to the n . phd e: yeah . but this i well , i do n't well , uh , professor b: maybe we can take it off - line , phd e: maybe professor b: but i i do n't know . phd e: i i can do this incorrectly . well , the expression that appear in the in the paper , is , uh phd d: the log the taylor series expansion for log one plus n by x is professor b: ok . phd c: is it the first - order expansion ? phd e: is x professor b: i i phd d: yeah , the first one . phd c: yeah , i guess . phd d: yeah . professor b: ok . yeah . cuz it does n't just follow what 's there . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: it has to be some , uh , taylor series phd d: y yeah . if if you take log x into log one plus n by x , and then expand the log one plus n by x into taylor series phd c: yeah . phd e: now , this is the and then phd c: yeah , but the the second expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between phd e: not exactly . professor b: no . phd e: no , no , no . it 's not the first space . well , we have pfft , uh , em well , we can put that x is equal i is equal to log of , uh , mmm professor b: that does n't follow . phd d: mmm . phd e: well , we can put , uh , this ? phd d: no . professor b: that i mean , that the f top one does not imply the second one . because cuz the log of a sum is not the same as th phd e: the top ? professor b: i mean , as phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd e: but we can uh , we we know that , for example , the log of e plus b is equal to log of e plus log to b . professor b: right . phd e: and we can say here , it i professor b: right . so you could s phd c: what is that ? phd e: and we can , uh , put this inside . professor b: yeah . phd e: and then we can , uh , professor b: n no , phd e: you know professor b: but phd e: yeah . professor b: i do n't see how you get the second expression from the top one . phd d: uh . professor b: the i mean , just more generally here , if you say `` log of , um , a plus b `` , the log of log of a plus b is not or a plus b is not the , um , log of e to the a plus e to the b . phd e: no , no , no , no , no , no , no . this not . professor b: right ? and that 's what you seem to be saying . phd e: no . no . it 's not . but this is the same oh . professor b: right ? cuz you cuz you up here you have the a plus b phd e: no . i say if i apply log , i have , uh , log of e is equal to log of , uh in this side , is equal to log of x professor b: plus n . phd e: plus n . professor b: right . phd e: no ? professor b: right . phd e: right . professor b: and then how do you go from there to the ? phd e: this is right . and then if i apply exponential , to have here e professor b: look . ok , so let 's i mean , c equals a plus b , phd c: it 's log o of capital y . yeah , right . professor b: and then phd c: capital y . phd e: yeah . phd d: x . x . this is x , inside . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: right . phd e: we have this , no ? professor b: yeah . that one 's right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: one and phd e: s uh , i th we can put here the set transformation . professor b: oh . i see . phd e: no ? professor b: i see . ok , i understand now . alright , thanks . phd e: yeah . in this case , well , we can put here a y . professor b: ok . so , yeah . it 's just by definition that the individual that the , uh so , capital x is by definition the same as e to the little x because she 's saying that the little x is is the , uh is the log . alright . phd e: now we can put this . professor b: yeah . phd e: no ? professor b: alright . phd e: and here we can multiply by x . professor b: i think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts different fonts there phd e: oh , yes . professor b: so you know which is which . but i i under i understand what you mean now . phd e: yeah , yeah . that 's true . that 's true . professor b: ok . phd e: but this this is correct ? professor b: sure . phd e: and now i can do it , uh pfff ! i can put log of ex plus log professor b: oh . yes . i understand now . and that 's where it comes from . phd e: and this is professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . right . professor b: right . phd e: now it 's correct . professor b: right . ok . thanks . phd e: well . the idea well , we have fixed this equa professor b: ok . so now once you get that that one , then you then you do a first or second - order , or something , taylor series expansion of this . phd e: yeah . this is another linear relation that this to develop this in vector s taylor series . phd c: yeah , sure . professor b: right . phd e: mm - hmm . and for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um est estimate a pdf for the noisy speech when we have a a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . mmm ? and when w the way to obtain the pdf for the noisy speech is well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st taylor series of the of the of well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and then when we have a expression , uh , for the mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the this statistic for the noisy speech professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . this only that . but the idea is that phd c: and the the model of clean speech is a codebook . right ? phd e: u yeah . we have our codebook with different density gaussian . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: we can expre we can put that the pdf { comment } for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to professor b: yeah . phd e: phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so , um , how h how much in in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the to get this mapping ? phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: yeah . phd e: i i need to s professor b: yeah . phd e: i do n't know exactly . professor b: cuz i think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the data in this test is that , um , you do n't have the the training set may not be a a great estimator for the noise in the test set . sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not . phd e: yeah . i the clean speech the codebook for clean speech , i am using timit . and i have now , uh , sixty - four gaus - gaussian . professor b: uh - huh . and what are you using for the noisy ? y y doing that strictly phd e: of the noise i estimate the noises wi professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: well , for the noises i only use one gaussian . professor b: and and you and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ? phd c: hmm . phd e: uh , yes . the first experiment that i do it is solely to calculate the , mmm well , this value professor b: yeah . phd e: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the the noise at the f beginning of the sentence . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is the first experiment . professor b: yeah . phd e: and i fix this for all the all the sentences . uh , because well , the vts methods in fact the first thing that i do is to to obtain , uh , an expression for e probability e expression of of e . that mean that the vts mmm , with the vts we obtain , uh well , we we obtain the means for each gaussian { comment } and the variance . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this is one . eh , this is the composition of the dictionary . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: this one thing . and the other thing that this with these methods is to , uh , obtain to calculate this value . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: because we can write uh , we can write that the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal the probability f of the the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: this is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of e minus a function that conditional to e to the t to the noise signal . well , this is this function is the the term after develop this , the term that we we take . give px and , uh , p the noise . phd d: x k c noise . professor b: mmm . phd e: and i can put that this is equal to the noise signal minus well , i put before this name , uh and i can calculate this . professor b: what is the first variable in that probability ? phd e: uh , this is the gaussian . professor b: no , no . i 'm sorry . in in the one you pointed at . what 's that variable ? phd e: v uh , this is the phd d: weak . so probably it it would do that . phd e: like this , phd c: it 's one mixture of the model . right ? phd e: but conditional . no , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . it 's modify . uh , if we have clean speech we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of our our weight for each gaussian . professor b: ok . phd e: no . and now , this weight is different now professor b: yes . phd e: because it 's conditional . and this i need to to calcu i know this professor b: uh - huh . phd e: and i know this because this is from the dictionary that you have . professor b: uh - huh . phd e: i need to calculate this . professor b: yes . phd e: and for calculate this , i have an i i can develop an expression that is phd d: it 's overlapping . phd e: that . i can calculate i can i calculated this value , uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that i calculated before with the vts approximation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and well , normalizing . and i know everything . uh , with the , nnn when i develop this in s taylor taylor series , i ca n't , um , calculate the mean and the variance of the for each of the gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . now . and this is fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: if i never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as mean and the variance are fixed . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: and for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that i need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech . professor b: so , i 'm i 'm not following this perfectly but , um , i are you saying that all of these estimates are done using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? and never change throughout anything else ? phd e: yeah . never cha this is one of the approximations that i am doing . professor b: per per per utterance , or per ? phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: per utterance . ok . phd e: per utterance . yes . professor b: so it 's done it 's done new for each new utterance . phd e: and th professor b: so this changes the whole mapping for every utterance . phd e: yeah . it 's not yeah . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , the dictionary . professor b: ok . phd e: and the other estimation is when i do the uh on - line estimation , i change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech professor b: yeah ? phd e: each time that i detect noise . professor b: mm - hmm . phd e: i do it uh again this develop . estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . and with th with this new s new mean and variance i estimate again this . professor b: so you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? uh , or is there some adaptation ? phd e: um , no , no , no . it 's not completely no , it 's i am doing something like an adaptation of the noise . professor b: ok . now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the the mean and variance , is enough ? yeah . i mean , i know you do n't have a lot of data to estimate with , but but , uh , um phd e: i estimate mean and variance for each one of the gaussian of the codebook . professor b: no , i 'm talking about the noise . phd e: oh , professor b: there 's only one gaussian . phd e: um . well , only one i am only using only one . professor b: right . phd e: i do n't know i professor b: and you and and it 's , uh , uh right , it 's only it 's only one wait a minute . this is what 's the dimensionality of the gaussian ? this is phd e: uh , it 's in after the mel filter bank . professor b: so this is twenty or something ? phd e: twenty - three . professor b: twenty ? so it 's yeah . so it 's actually forty numbers that you 're getting . yeah , maybe maybe you do n't have a phd e: uh , the original paper say that only one gaussian for the noise . professor b: well , yeah . but , i mean , no no paper is is a bible , phd e: yeah , maybe is n't the right thing . professor b: you know . this is this is , uh phd e: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor b: the question is , um , whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used if you had more so , suppose you did this is almost cheating . it certainly is n't real - time . but if y suppose you use the real boundaries that that you were in fact were given by the vad and so forth or i i guess we 're gon na be given even better boundaries than that . and you look you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? that would be another question . phd e: maybe . professor b: so first question would be to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? and the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? um . also another question might be um , they are doing they 're using first term only of the vector taylor series ? phd e: yeah . professor b: um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ? phd e: yeah . it 's quite complicated . professor b: yeah , ok . no , i wo n't ask the next question then . phd e: oh , it 's it 's the for me it 's the first time that i am working with vts . professor b: yeah . no , it 's interesting . phd e: uh professor b: uh , w we have n't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your get your feedback about it . phd e: it 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic statistic approximation to remove the noise . i do n't know . professor b: right . phd f: great . ok . well , i guess we 're about done . um , so some of the digit forms do n't have digits . uh , we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . but , um , i guess you 've got some . right , morgan ? professor b: i have some . phd f: so , why do n't you go ahead and start . and i think it 's just us down here at this end that have them . phd d: s phd e: um phd f: so . professor b: uh , ok . phd d: s so , we switch off with this phd f: whenever you 're ready . phd d: or n ? phd f: uh , leave it on , phd d: no . ok . phd f: uh , professor b: they prefer to have them on phd f: and the professor b: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information . phd f: yeah . phd d: ok . ok . phd f: ok . professor b: ok . s

grad a thought that the experiments would explain which categories were good for speech recognition . the experiments would do phone recognition with timit and the output would go into a standard recognizer , maybe chronos .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> user interface: okay . project manager: so i see all everybody 's here , 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and we can start meeting . user interface: okay . marketing: what 's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: the i will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you . marketing: okay . project manager: um as you can see here . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: perfect . project manager: so first uh just to mention i will take notes uh of this meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh i will try to work them out and give them to you . i 've also made notes of the previous meeting and um i was about to send them you but then uh i had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: next . project manager: um . industrial designer: so y you are the secretary also . project manager: yes . indeed . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: then i hope you all have uh worked out some some uh some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . industrial designer: perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh . user interface: project manager: um . w we will uh in a minute we will uh start with them . um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . um then i will uh bring in some some some new requirements i i got uh from the uh account manager , i try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . uh um about the functions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: mm . industrial designer: you mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: yes i mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this , marketing: mm . user interface: industrial designer: oh the customers , okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: the customers , indeed yes . think that 's that 's important matter . marketing: that 's the big question yeah . project manager: uh . so and then uh we will close this meeting uh user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we 'll uh we 'll have a lunch . good . um . maybe um why uh anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: no , i do n't . project manager: you do n't have presentation ? marketing: i was n't . no . project manager: uh you want a table to to uh marketing: i c i can talk about it but i have no slides or anything . project manager: yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um . marketing: mm-hmm . well i 've just been um presented with some research we 've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . um . it 's probably ca n't email this to you , i 've just got a web page with some data on it . um basically it 's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . um . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . um . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they 're watching television . uh . fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they 've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: mm . marketing: um . project manager: do you do you have this uh information on the web page you said ? marketing: i have an a web page yes . project manager: yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . uh about this . marketing: yep . yep , sure . mm-hmm . so basically um there 's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um and then there 's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . project manager: mm . marketing: um . teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . um . project manager: mm . marketing: an interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . um . project manager: yes yes , i have that too . industrial designer: marketing: thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that 's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . project manager: mm . marketing: um . industrial designer: it 's it 's easy to learn or how do you say it 's marketing: thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . yep . industrial designer: okay too much time to learn . okay . marketing: um . and thirty twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: not enough marketing: i do n't know how we 'd go about combating that . user interface: . what do you mean there ? marketing: for r_s_i_ ? respet repetitive strain injury . user interface: okay . marketing: so . but project manager: mm . they think that or do their doctor the doctor says ? marketing: mm . project manager: but it 's it 's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ? marketing: yeah . that 's what the report says yeah . project manager: so mm . marketing: um and then it 's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: maybe y y you can not put this webpage online on the marketing: uh i should be able to actually , if i email it to you now . user interface: you can disconnect it there project manager: you can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: oh no , yeah . industrial designer: ah it 's it okay it 's a webpage on the c_ it 's a file marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: um , s hang on . industrial designer: o otherwise you yeah . you can connect this one . project manager: user interface: then you can connect this one or this one yeah . project manager: user interface: all to your computer . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well . industrial designer: so these are important numbers that matthew and i need to take into account for our functional um user interface: oh yeah . project manager: marketing: oh i need to muck around with this . it 's probably easier if you put it on yours and then i 'll just email it to you . it 's just a web link . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design . user interface: hmm . yeah . marketing: one thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important . marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control . industrial designer: speech recognition in marketing: and who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . project manager: d do you have numbers o o on that ? industrial designer: ah okay . marketing: yes , i 'll just get this up . industrial designer: so that we do n't do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: well potentially yeah , um project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . marketing: i think even for interesti industrial designer: okay . interesting idea . marketing: yeah i think that would not work so well . you wan na have both options . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it does n't matter where it is , my well it 's we should be in range , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . but the these are all quite fancy features industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve euro fi and fifty cents . user interface: well it would be f marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no you ca n't . industrial designer: and we do n't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: oh . well , it depends you know like there is uh it 's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but it 's quite noisy if there is the tv uh shouting . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: it 's it 's going to be li project manager: that that that that 's mm . user interface: it 's not going to be s so easy but u usually it 's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: do you have some more important facts user interface: but it 's but i do n't know with twenty fi marketing: um project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: okay . so marketing: well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: this is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . project manager: mm . user interface: okay it 's uh decline . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: but we sh project manager: mm-hmm . decline with age , mm . marketing: yeah , it really depends where we 're gon na be targeting this product , um , user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: which we 'll be talking about later i think . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yes . we will talk about it later . marketing: did you get the email ? project manager: okay . marketing: yep , that one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: just follow that link . industrial designer: i thi you us marketing: it 'll be in a different window , yep . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: that 's left that one . project manager: marketing: yep . industrial designer: okay perfect . .. . marketing: mm . so that 's the figure that i was just talking about there , with the different demographics . user interface: okay . marketing: another thing it 's talking about there is the lcd screen but there 's no figures apparently on that . project manager: mm . okay . um industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: uh maybe uh mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ? industrial designer: yeah . mm i okay project manager: oh , industrial designer: i stay project manager: this is user interface: now you can move i think yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh . industrial designer: i can move as far as maybe i take your chair ? project manager: yes . you can you can sa take my chair . industrial designer: i okay . user interface: it 's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: sorry ? oh . user interface: go to the . yeah . industrial designer: so i think as everybody knows uh i 'm the uh industrial designer . and uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um is gon na focus on the working design of the the remote control . um i 'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you do n't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because i think in the product it is important . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . so my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first the the main point is that i would wish to to make a really functional product . i would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and does n't work . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so for that yeah as it 's important to take into account the user requirements from the marketing uh expert uh anna marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and i show you the the working design . so um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want . uh we want an on off button , it can be uh it 's simple but it 's it 's important , and also uh the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . so the components i quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that 's my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . this is very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you do n't agree on it on that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um so what i have found and after a lot of work actually i i draw this i draw for you this uh schema marketing: well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: you drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . project manager: is huh marketing: ninety one . industrial designer: and uh that 's it so i wo n't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . marketing: project manager: no . industrial designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components . project manager: and and why do you want these kind of component ? industrial designer: so . so project manager: i mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? what were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it 's expensive , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that 's it for the working design , uh i hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components project manager: yes . it it it 's more clear now i think . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: so user interface: but is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: no no no no we we will uh this is a preference but we can always change uh project manager: mm-hmm . what i w what i was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , i mean can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . so we we must adapt to the to the receiver . industrial designer: of course yeah . project manager: i i suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh . industrial designer: yeah . we will use uh infrared protocol uh using yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles . project manager: mm . mm . mm . mm . yes . okay . industrial designer: um . okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: well it to du it 's just you had to change the frequencies . industrial designer: the frequencies ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . of course yeah user interface: but you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other tvs , so basically through all the things . industrial designer: that can control o other things . yeah . marketing: ah . project manager: mm . user interface: so maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: that 's handy . project manager: yeah yes marketing: so if the b tv in the next apartment 's really loud , you can just turn it off . project manager: i i i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: in the uh user interface: yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone 's tv and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: you do n't have to be near the tv at all . marketing: yeah . i like that idea . project manager: i i feel i i i think m mael will will consider this uh th these things . user interface: project manager: maybe maybe we can go to to your presentation uh matthew . user interface: yeah project manager: i i i assume you were finished here . user interface: so . industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh okay . user interface: okay . so i can take i think mine now there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay so voila . marketing: user interface: hmm i can take mine it 's okay , voila , mm so mm . okay . project manager: oh . i uh , sorry ? i know where it is . user interface: it 's on the desktop . project manager: it 's uh user interface: technical function . project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's uh user interface: like so . project manager: user interface: well . so um i 'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it 's about what is the user going to do , i think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: mm-hmm . yep . user interface: so what 's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . so well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the tv set , as mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the tv and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the tv and uh um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . so p as um anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you do n't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the tv . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: and um so generally mm i do n't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard tv remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . and if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . then there is uh this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it does n't have teletext option , it can without any , it 's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch . and then you have uh what 's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . and then whi which is generally used by the people . and then well personal preferences i would uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the uh the f a tv and the remote video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video 's remote control and the tv they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with marketing: okay . how would that work ? so you 've got say maybe a v_c_r_ and a tv which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home i 've got a v_c_r_ remote which then changes the channel on the v_c_r_ and does n't do anything on the tv , user interface: yeah . marketing: so is it gon na be like a switch on the remote that says t use the tv or use the v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but um uh yo you you you still ca n't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the v_c_r_ option marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you could play it or you can also think about having like um i in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program . marketing: mm . user interface: in that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . marketing: mm . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: these are kind of next generation functionalities . user interface: it 's the next generation thing , project manager: mm yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . marketing: mm . project manager: but i think it 's i i it 's already there , user interface: it 's goi project manager: i mean the hard disk uh recorders uh i i 've seen them in the shop . user interface: yeah it 's marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so industrial designer: mm 'kay . user interface: it 's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard tv thing . marketing: mm . yeah . that 's fair enough . mm . but i do n't think we 're trying to make a universal remote here . that 's , user interface: no no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , i have a tv and tomorrow i am going to have set up box marketing: mm . user interface: which is going to sit there and uh it 's going to do that job for me . marketing: mm . because y project manager: w w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mean , you can go pretty far i f i think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects marketing: mm . yep . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . so project manager: but it 's good to keep in mind . marketing: mm . user interface: okay so that p ends my presentation . project manager: mm . very well . user interface: well . so we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it 's presently booming up actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your tv . project manager: good . user interface: and thi this is going to come . industrial designer: or even you do n't need to download it , it 's streamed uh online uh yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time i want to watch the movie marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: um , so u um user interface: so . yeah . project manager: i have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh i would like to share them with you . um marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but it 's it 's getting used less and less . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's especially because of the internet of course . marketing: hmm . project manager: so we should think about it um . do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . marketing: mm . project manager: uh as uh a in any case it 's it 's not used , well very much , but it 's it is still used . um marketing: mm . user interface: um . project manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you ca n't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ? user interface: marketing: so d_v_d_s and v_c_r_s ? project manager: uh indeed indeed . marketing: mm . project manager: and and and the hard disk recorders . um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh y younger customers and then with younger customers i mean people uh below the age of forty , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh which well industrial designer: fourteen project manager: forty . industrial designer: or for o okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so project manager: that 's to that 's i mean there 's a market but uh they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you 'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that 's w we should make our our our r_c_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah it 's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: mm . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you do n't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh marketing: mm . project manager: ma maybe maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh marketing: mm . but i think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we 're going after a younger market , user interface: yeah so . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . yes yes marketing: that 's the the the mm the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that 's , project manager: yes it 's recognisable industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , there 's lot there 's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . project manager: mm mm . marketing: that 's project manager: and and they are skilled uh by using it . marketing: mm . user interface: so for example uh well uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . .. . user interface: okay , it works . fine . so , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that project manager: mael can you hand me over this uh ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh thank you . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . how much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: mm well marketing: 'cause we have n't talked about demographic at all project manager: i think fi five min user interface: forty minutes ? marketing: and it 's a very important issue . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . too sorry , so we basically do n't change the uh original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't look uh so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six , marketing: mm . mm . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: for you do n't have too many keys marketing: mm . user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: okay . 'kay i i think now that the idea 's clear . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . project manager: uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . which i think is quite tricky . industrial designer: marketing: um , basically we 're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: would n't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: of course they have already one . so our our our remote control has to be better . marketing: but it 's not going to have more functionality , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause it 's only a low market , it 's a cheap-end remote control , we ca n't beat modern functionality , we might we 'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that 's not a big seller , if they 're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i 'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing . project manager: mm . i well i think many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh r_c_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: mm . yeah . but why are they buying one in the first place ? project manager: but indeed . so that will be about functionality marketing: mm . but if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they 'll buy a universal remote . i 've got friends who 've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they 're using five different remotes for their all their things . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . mm . marketing: in that case they would n't buy our product , because it does n't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: so your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: well , we ca n't , with the price range . we we 're not building a universal remote , we 're not building a high end product . project manager: what do what do you think about what componen industrial designer: yeah we have yeah twelve point five euros uh per uh per r_ s r_c_ marketing: mm . industrial designer: and i think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . and um but yeah marketing: but yeah . if we 're getting into universal remote territory , we 're getting to lcd screens and things like that industrial designer: that 's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . project manager: i do n't know . i do n't know whether that 's necessary . industrial designer: ye project manager: is the lcd screen marketing: for universal remotes industrial designer: i do n't think lcd is not necessary well , th for long term . marketing: if you mm . project manager: i think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive . marketing: and quite complicated to use , project manager: s so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated marketing: mm-hmm . not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh r_c_ industrial designer: universal . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: but if we 're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own tvs to use a remote control on . project manager: mm yes but w we 're targeting i think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . marketing: okay . so they 're yeah . project manager: people yes . who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yep . i do n't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . are we gon na be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? i do n't know . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think uh when we think it over i thi i think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . industrial designer: marketing: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so d do you agree ? user interface: well well i it 's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive . industrial designer: yeah user interface: uh and it d uh our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gon na b we are gon na sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is uh price of a chip is very cheap . marketing: mm . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so i 'm okay for designing um a ne uh less yeah a a kind of universal uh r_c_ yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . you think it 's possible for the twelve euro fifty ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control . user interface: uh yeah , that 's that 's what we needed basically . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: uh that 's needed right now . and uh basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: yeah that 's needed , yeah . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: and if we want to get the market , we really need that . marketing: yeah . so i guess what i 'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , v_c_r_ and tv . user interface: actu industrial designer: yes . exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: and just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . industrial designer: is that okay for you ? yeah . project manager: mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: so given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market . marketing: mm-hmm yep . user interface: voila . hmm . project manager: so anyone uh has a point to bring in user interface: so . well . project manager: or shall we no . user interface: oh i do n't have anything right now . we can we 'll we 'll go industrial designer: oh project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's that 's fine then . user interface: and we 'll i 'm sure we 'll up something good marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: w yes , user interface: for the project manager: we uh we can have lunch now . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um then th th the next meeting will uh user interface: yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . but you will be informed via the computer . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: cool . so see you later . industrial designer: okay perfect .

the whole meeting was focused on the target group and the functionality of the new remote control product . after project manager briefly reaffirmed the meeting procedure , marketing , industrial designer , and user interface each gave a presentation about trend-watching , working design , technical function respectively . then , project manager started a group discussion about the demand for teletext and video , for which thick key design was accepted as a feasible solution . then , the group discussed the target group based on the predetermined budget , and accepted universality as an important feature .

summarize the group discussion about video demand , teletext demand , and thick keys design . </s> user interface: okay . project manager: so i see all everybody 's here , 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and we can start meeting . user interface: okay . marketing: what 's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: the i will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you . marketing: okay . project manager: um as you can see here . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: perfect . project manager: so first uh just to mention i will take notes uh of this meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh i will try to work them out and give them to you . i 've also made notes of the previous meeting and um i was about to send them you but then uh i had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: next . project manager: um . industrial designer: so y you are the secretary also . project manager: yes . indeed . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: then i hope you all have uh worked out some some uh some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . industrial designer: perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh . user interface: project manager: um . w we will uh in a minute we will uh start with them . um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . um then i will uh bring in some some some new requirements i i got uh from the uh account manager , i try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . uh um about the functions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: mm . industrial designer: you mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: yes i mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this , marketing: mm . user interface: industrial designer: oh the customers , okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: the customers , indeed yes . think that 's that 's important matter . marketing: that 's the big question yeah . project manager: uh . so and then uh we will close this meeting uh user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we 'll uh we 'll have a lunch . good . um . maybe um why uh anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: no , i do n't . project manager: you do n't have presentation ? marketing: i was n't . no . project manager: uh you want a table to to uh marketing: i c i can talk about it but i have no slides or anything . project manager: yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um . marketing: mm-hmm . well i 've just been um presented with some research we 've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . um . it 's probably ca n't email this to you , i 've just got a web page with some data on it . um basically it 's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . um . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . um . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they 're watching television . uh . fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they 've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: mm . marketing: um . project manager: do you do you have this uh information on the web page you said ? marketing: i have an a web page yes . project manager: yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . uh about this . marketing: yep . yep , sure . mm-hmm . so basically um there 's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um and then there 's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . project manager: mm . marketing: um . teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . um . project manager: mm . marketing: an interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . um . project manager: yes yes , i have that too . industrial designer: marketing: thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that 's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . project manager: mm . marketing: um . industrial designer: it 's it 's easy to learn or how do you say it 's marketing: thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . yep . industrial designer: okay too much time to learn . okay . marketing: um . and thirty twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: not enough marketing: i do n't know how we 'd go about combating that . user interface: . what do you mean there ? marketing: for r_s_i_ ? respet repetitive strain injury . user interface: okay . marketing: so . but project manager: mm . they think that or do their doctor the doctor says ? marketing: mm . project manager: but it 's it 's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ? marketing: yeah . that 's what the report says yeah . project manager: so mm . marketing: um and then it 's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: maybe y y you can not put this webpage online on the marketing: uh i should be able to actually , if i email it to you now . user interface: you can disconnect it there project manager: you can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: oh no , yeah . industrial designer: ah it 's it okay it 's a webpage on the c_ it 's a file marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: um , s hang on . industrial designer: o otherwise you yeah . you can connect this one . project manager: user interface: then you can connect this one or this one yeah . project manager: user interface: all to your computer . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well . industrial designer: so these are important numbers that matthew and i need to take into account for our functional um user interface: oh yeah . project manager: marketing: oh i need to muck around with this . it 's probably easier if you put it on yours and then i 'll just email it to you . it 's just a web link . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design . user interface: hmm . yeah . marketing: one thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important . marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control . industrial designer: speech recognition in marketing: and who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . project manager: d do you have numbers o o on that ? industrial designer: ah okay . marketing: yes , i 'll just get this up . industrial designer: so that we do n't do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: well potentially yeah , um project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . marketing: i think even for interesti industrial designer: okay . interesting idea . marketing: yeah i think that would not work so well . you wan na have both options . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it does n't matter where it is , my well it 's we should be in range , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . but the these are all quite fancy features industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve euro fi and fifty cents . user interface: well it would be f marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no you ca n't . industrial designer: and we do n't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: oh . well , it depends you know like there is uh it 's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but it 's quite noisy if there is the tv uh shouting . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: it 's it 's going to be li project manager: that that that that 's mm . user interface: it 's not going to be s so easy but u usually it 's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: do you have some more important facts user interface: but it 's but i do n't know with twenty fi marketing: um project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: okay . so marketing: well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: this is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . project manager: mm . user interface: okay it 's uh decline . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: but we sh project manager: mm-hmm . decline with age , mm . marketing: yeah , it really depends where we 're gon na be targeting this product , um , user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: which we 'll be talking about later i think . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yes . we will talk about it later . marketing: did you get the email ? project manager: okay . marketing: yep , that one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: just follow that link . industrial designer: i thi you us marketing: it 'll be in a different window , yep . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: that 's left that one . project manager: marketing: yep . industrial designer: okay perfect . .. . marketing: mm . so that 's the figure that i was just talking about there , with the different demographics . user interface: okay . marketing: another thing it 's talking about there is the lcd screen but there 's no figures apparently on that . project manager: mm . okay . um industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: uh maybe uh mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ? industrial designer: yeah . mm i okay project manager: oh , industrial designer: i stay project manager: this is user interface: now you can move i think yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh . industrial designer: i can move as far as maybe i take your chair ? project manager: yes . you can you can sa take my chair . industrial designer: i okay . user interface: it 's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: sorry ? oh . user interface: go to the . yeah . industrial designer: so i think as everybody knows uh i 'm the uh industrial designer . and uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um is gon na focus on the working design of the the remote control . um i 'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you do n't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because i think in the product it is important . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . so my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first the the main point is that i would wish to to make a really functional product . i would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and does n't work . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so for that yeah as it 's important to take into account the user requirements from the marketing uh expert uh anna marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and i show you the the working design . so um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want . uh we want an on off button , it can be uh it 's simple but it 's it 's important , and also uh the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . so the components i quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that 's my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . this is very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you do n't agree on it on that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um so what i have found and after a lot of work actually i i draw this i draw for you this uh schema marketing: well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: you drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . project manager: is huh marketing: ninety one . industrial designer: and uh that 's it so i wo n't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . marketing: project manager: no . industrial designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components . project manager: and and why do you want these kind of component ? industrial designer: so . so project manager: i mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? what were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it 's expensive , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that 's it for the working design , uh i hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components project manager: yes . it it it 's more clear now i think . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: so user interface: but is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: no no no no we we will uh this is a preference but we can always change uh project manager: mm-hmm . what i w what i was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , i mean can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . so we we must adapt to the to the receiver . industrial designer: of course yeah . project manager: i i suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh . industrial designer: yeah . we will use uh infrared protocol uh using yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles . project manager: mm . mm . mm . mm . yes . okay . industrial designer: um . okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: well it to du it 's just you had to change the frequencies . industrial designer: the frequencies ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . of course yeah user interface: but you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other tvs , so basically through all the things . industrial designer: that can control o other things . yeah . marketing: ah . project manager: mm . user interface: so maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: that 's handy . project manager: yeah yes marketing: so if the b tv in the next apartment 's really loud , you can just turn it off . project manager: i i i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: in the uh user interface: yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone 's tv and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: you do n't have to be near the tv at all . marketing: yeah . i like that idea . project manager: i i feel i i i think m mael will will consider this uh th these things . user interface: project manager: maybe maybe we can go to to your presentation uh matthew . user interface: yeah project manager: i i i assume you were finished here . user interface: so . industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh okay . user interface: okay . so i can take i think mine now there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay so voila . marketing: user interface: hmm i can take mine it 's okay , voila , mm so mm . okay . project manager: oh . i uh , sorry ? i know where it is . user interface: it 's on the desktop . project manager: it 's uh user interface: technical function . project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's uh user interface: like so . project manager: user interface: well . so um i 'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it 's about what is the user going to do , i think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: mm-hmm . yep . user interface: so what 's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . so well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the tv set , as mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the tv and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the tv and uh um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . so p as um anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you do n't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the tv . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: and um so generally mm i do n't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard tv remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . and if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . then there is uh this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it does n't have teletext option , it can without any , it 's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch . and then you have uh what 's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . and then whi which is generally used by the people . and then well personal preferences i would uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the uh the f a tv and the remote video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video 's remote control and the tv they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with marketing: okay . how would that work ? so you 've got say maybe a v_c_r_ and a tv which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home i 've got a v_c_r_ remote which then changes the channel on the v_c_r_ and does n't do anything on the tv , user interface: yeah . marketing: so is it gon na be like a switch on the remote that says t use the tv or use the v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but um uh yo you you you still ca n't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the v_c_r_ option marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you could play it or you can also think about having like um i in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program . marketing: mm . user interface: in that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . marketing: mm . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: these are kind of next generation functionalities . user interface: it 's the next generation thing , project manager: mm yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . marketing: mm . project manager: but i think it 's i i it 's already there , user interface: it 's goi project manager: i mean the hard disk uh recorders uh i i 've seen them in the shop . user interface: yeah it 's marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so industrial designer: mm 'kay . user interface: it 's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard tv thing . marketing: mm . yeah . that 's fair enough . mm . but i do n't think we 're trying to make a universal remote here . that 's , user interface: no no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , i have a tv and tomorrow i am going to have set up box marketing: mm . user interface: which is going to sit there and uh it 's going to do that job for me . marketing: mm . because y project manager: w w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mean , you can go pretty far i f i think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects marketing: mm . yep . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . so project manager: but it 's good to keep in mind . marketing: mm . user interface: okay so that p ends my presentation . project manager: mm . very well . user interface: well . so we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it 's presently booming up actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your tv . project manager: good . user interface: and thi this is going to come . industrial designer: or even you do n't need to download it , it 's streamed uh online uh yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time i want to watch the movie marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: um , so u um user interface: so . yeah . project manager: i have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh i would like to share them with you . um marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but it 's it 's getting used less and less . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's especially because of the internet of course . marketing: hmm . project manager: so we should think about it um . do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . marketing: mm . project manager: uh as uh a in any case it 's it 's not used , well very much , but it 's it is still used . um marketing: mm . user interface: um . project manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you ca n't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ? user interface: marketing: so d_v_d_s and v_c_r_s ? project manager: uh indeed indeed . marketing: mm . project manager: and and and the hard disk recorders . um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh y younger customers and then with younger customers i mean people uh below the age of forty , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh which well industrial designer: fourteen project manager: forty . industrial designer: or for o okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so project manager: that 's to that 's i mean there 's a market but uh they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you 'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that 's w we should make our our our r_c_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah it 's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: mm . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you do n't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh marketing: mm . project manager: ma maybe maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh marketing: mm . but i think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we 're going after a younger market , user interface: yeah so . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . yes yes marketing: that 's the the the mm the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that 's , project manager: yes it 's recognisable industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , there 's lot there 's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . project manager: mm mm . marketing: that 's project manager: and and they are skilled uh by using it . marketing: mm . user interface: so for example uh well uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . .. . user interface: okay , it works . fine . so , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that project manager: mael can you hand me over this uh ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh thank you . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . how much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: mm well marketing: 'cause we have n't talked about demographic at all project manager: i think fi five min user interface: forty minutes ? marketing: and it 's a very important issue . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . too sorry , so we basically do n't change the uh original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't look uh so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six , marketing: mm . mm . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: for you do n't have too many keys marketing: mm . user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: okay . 'kay i i think now that the idea 's clear . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . project manager: uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . which i think is quite tricky . industrial designer: marketing: um , basically we 're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: would n't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: of course they have already one . so our our our remote control has to be better . marketing: but it 's not going to have more functionality , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause it 's only a low market , it 's a cheap-end remote control , we ca n't beat modern functionality , we might we 'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that 's not a big seller , if they 're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i 'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing . project manager: mm . i well i think many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh r_c_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: mm . yeah . but why are they buying one in the first place ? project manager: but indeed . so that will be about functionality marketing: mm . but if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they 'll buy a universal remote . i 've got friends who 've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they 're using five different remotes for their all their things . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . mm . marketing: in that case they would n't buy our product , because it does n't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: so your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: well , we ca n't , with the price range . we we 're not building a universal remote , we 're not building a high end product . project manager: what do what do you think about what componen industrial designer: yeah we have yeah twelve point five euros uh per uh per r_ s r_c_ marketing: mm . industrial designer: and i think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . and um but yeah marketing: but yeah . if we 're getting into universal remote territory , we 're getting to lcd screens and things like that industrial designer: that 's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . project manager: i do n't know . i do n't know whether that 's necessary . industrial designer: ye project manager: is the lcd screen marketing: for universal remotes industrial designer: i do n't think lcd is not necessary well , th for long term . marketing: if you mm . project manager: i think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive . marketing: and quite complicated to use , project manager: s so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated marketing: mm-hmm . not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh r_c_ industrial designer: universal . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: but if we 're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own tvs to use a remote control on . project manager: mm yes but w we 're targeting i think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . marketing: okay . so they 're yeah . project manager: people yes . who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yep . i do n't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . are we gon na be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? i do n't know . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think uh when we think it over i thi i think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . industrial designer: marketing: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so d do you agree ? user interface: well well i it 's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive . industrial designer: yeah user interface: uh and it d uh our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gon na b we are gon na sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is uh price of a chip is very cheap . marketing: mm . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so i 'm okay for designing um a ne uh less yeah a a kind of universal uh r_c_ yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . you think it 's possible for the twelve euro fifty ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control . user interface: uh yeah , that 's that 's what we needed basically . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: uh that 's needed right now . and uh basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: yeah that 's needed , yeah . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: and if we want to get the market , we really need that . marketing: yeah . so i guess what i 'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , v_c_r_ and tv . user interface: actu industrial designer: yes . exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: and just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . industrial designer: is that okay for you ? yeah . project manager: mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: so given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market . marketing: mm-hmm yep . user interface: voila . hmm . project manager: so anyone uh has a point to bring in user interface: so . well . project manager: or shall we no . user interface: oh i do n't have anything right now . we can we 'll we 'll go industrial designer: oh project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's that 's fine then . user interface: and we 'll i 'm sure we 'll up something good marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: w yes , user interface: for the project manager: we uh we can have lunch now . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um then th th the next meeting will uh user interface: yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . but you will be informed via the computer . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: cool . so see you later . industrial designer: okay perfect .

first of all , project manager launched a discussion about video over-demand , during which user interface and industrial designer mentioned some fancy functions like downloading and streamlining . then , project manager announced that according to the account manager , teletext could be included in the discussion , though its obsolescence incurred doubts over its usability and necessity . after that , project manager offered a choice question between television and further recording devices represented by dvds , vcrs , and hard disk recorders . finally , to cater for the younger people , user interface devised big thick keys for rc in imitation of mobile phones , which received positive feedback from other team members .

what attitudes did project manager hold towards teletext ? </s> user interface: okay . project manager: so i see all everybody 's here , 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and we can start meeting . user interface: okay . marketing: what 's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: the i will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you . marketing: okay . project manager: um as you can see here . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: perfect . project manager: so first uh just to mention i will take notes uh of this meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh i will try to work them out and give them to you . i 've also made notes of the previous meeting and um i was about to send them you but then uh i had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: next . project manager: um . industrial designer: so y you are the secretary also . project manager: yes . indeed . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: then i hope you all have uh worked out some some uh some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . industrial designer: perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh . user interface: project manager: um . w we will uh in a minute we will uh start with them . um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . um then i will uh bring in some some some new requirements i i got uh from the uh account manager , i try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . uh um about the functions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: mm . industrial designer: you mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: yes i mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this , marketing: mm . user interface: industrial designer: oh the customers , okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: the customers , indeed yes . think that 's that 's important matter . marketing: that 's the big question yeah . project manager: uh . so and then uh we will close this meeting uh user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we 'll uh we 'll have a lunch . good . um . maybe um why uh anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: no , i do n't . project manager: you do n't have presentation ? marketing: i was n't . no . project manager: uh you want a table to to uh marketing: i c i can talk about it but i have no slides or anything . project manager: yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um . marketing: mm-hmm . well i 've just been um presented with some research we 've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . um . it 's probably ca n't email this to you , i 've just got a web page with some data on it . um basically it 's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . um . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . um . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they 're watching television . uh . fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they 've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: mm . marketing: um . project manager: do you do you have this uh information on the web page you said ? marketing: i have an a web page yes . project manager: yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . uh about this . marketing: yep . yep , sure . mm-hmm . so basically um there 's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um and then there 's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . project manager: mm . marketing: um . teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . um . project manager: mm . marketing: an interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . um . project manager: yes yes , i have that too . industrial designer: marketing: thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that 's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . project manager: mm . marketing: um . industrial designer: it 's it 's easy to learn or how do you say it 's marketing: thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . yep . industrial designer: okay too much time to learn . okay . marketing: um . and thirty twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: not enough marketing: i do n't know how we 'd go about combating that . user interface: . what do you mean there ? marketing: for r_s_i_ ? respet repetitive strain injury . user interface: okay . marketing: so . but project manager: mm . they think that or do their doctor the doctor says ? marketing: mm . project manager: but it 's it 's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ? marketing: yeah . that 's what the report says yeah . project manager: so mm . marketing: um and then it 's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: maybe y y you can not put this webpage online on the marketing: uh i should be able to actually , if i email it to you now . user interface: you can disconnect it there project manager: you can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: oh no , yeah . industrial designer: ah it 's it okay it 's a webpage on the c_ it 's a file marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: um , s hang on . industrial designer: o otherwise you yeah . you can connect this one . project manager: user interface: then you can connect this one or this one yeah . project manager: user interface: all to your computer . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well . industrial designer: so these are important numbers that matthew and i need to take into account for our functional um user interface: oh yeah . project manager: marketing: oh i need to muck around with this . it 's probably easier if you put it on yours and then i 'll just email it to you . it 's just a web link . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design . user interface: hmm . yeah . marketing: one thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important . marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control . industrial designer: speech recognition in marketing: and who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . project manager: d do you have numbers o o on that ? industrial designer: ah okay . marketing: yes , i 'll just get this up . industrial designer: so that we do n't do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: well potentially yeah , um project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . marketing: i think even for interesti industrial designer: okay . interesting idea . marketing: yeah i think that would not work so well . you wan na have both options . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it does n't matter where it is , my well it 's we should be in range , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . but the these are all quite fancy features industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve euro fi and fifty cents . user interface: well it would be f marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no you ca n't . industrial designer: and we do n't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: oh . well , it depends you know like there is uh it 's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but it 's quite noisy if there is the tv uh shouting . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: it 's it 's going to be li project manager: that that that that 's mm . user interface: it 's not going to be s so easy but u usually it 's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: do you have some more important facts user interface: but it 's but i do n't know with twenty fi marketing: um project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: okay . so marketing: well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: this is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . project manager: mm . user interface: okay it 's uh decline . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: but we sh project manager: mm-hmm . decline with age , mm . marketing: yeah , it really depends where we 're gon na be targeting this product , um , user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: which we 'll be talking about later i think . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yes . we will talk about it later . marketing: did you get the email ? project manager: okay . marketing: yep , that one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: just follow that link . industrial designer: i thi you us marketing: it 'll be in a different window , yep . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: that 's left that one . project manager: marketing: yep . industrial designer: okay perfect . .. . marketing: mm . so that 's the figure that i was just talking about there , with the different demographics . user interface: okay . marketing: another thing it 's talking about there is the lcd screen but there 's no figures apparently on that . project manager: mm . okay . um industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: uh maybe uh mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ? industrial designer: yeah . mm i okay project manager: oh , industrial designer: i stay project manager: this is user interface: now you can move i think yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh . industrial designer: i can move as far as maybe i take your chair ? project manager: yes . you can you can sa take my chair . industrial designer: i okay . user interface: it 's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: sorry ? oh . user interface: go to the . yeah . industrial designer: so i think as everybody knows uh i 'm the uh industrial designer . and uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um is gon na focus on the working design of the the remote control . um i 'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you do n't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because i think in the product it is important . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . so my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first the the main point is that i would wish to to make a really functional product . i would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and does n't work . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so for that yeah as it 's important to take into account the user requirements from the marketing uh expert uh anna marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and i show you the the working design . so um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want . uh we want an on off button , it can be uh it 's simple but it 's it 's important , and also uh the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . so the components i quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that 's my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . this is very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you do n't agree on it on that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um so what i have found and after a lot of work actually i i draw this i draw for you this uh schema marketing: well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: you drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . project manager: is huh marketing: ninety one . industrial designer: and uh that 's it so i wo n't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . marketing: project manager: no . industrial designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components . project manager: and and why do you want these kind of component ? industrial designer: so . so project manager: i mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? what were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it 's expensive , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that 's it for the working design , uh i hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components project manager: yes . it it it 's more clear now i think . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: so user interface: but is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: no no no no we we will uh this is a preference but we can always change uh project manager: mm-hmm . what i w what i was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , i mean can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . so we we must adapt to the to the receiver . industrial designer: of course yeah . project manager: i i suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh . industrial designer: yeah . we will use uh infrared protocol uh using yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles . project manager: mm . mm . mm . mm . yes . okay . industrial designer: um . okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: well it to du it 's just you had to change the frequencies . industrial designer: the frequencies ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . of course yeah user interface: but you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other tvs , so basically through all the things . industrial designer: that can control o other things . yeah . marketing: ah . project manager: mm . user interface: so maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: that 's handy . project manager: yeah yes marketing: so if the b tv in the next apartment 's really loud , you can just turn it off . project manager: i i i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: in the uh user interface: yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone 's tv and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: you do n't have to be near the tv at all . marketing: yeah . i like that idea . project manager: i i feel i i i think m mael will will consider this uh th these things . user interface: project manager: maybe maybe we can go to to your presentation uh matthew . user interface: yeah project manager: i i i assume you were finished here . user interface: so . industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh okay . user interface: okay . so i can take i think mine now there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay so voila . marketing: user interface: hmm i can take mine it 's okay , voila , mm so mm . okay . project manager: oh . i uh , sorry ? i know where it is . user interface: it 's on the desktop . project manager: it 's uh user interface: technical function . project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's uh user interface: like so . project manager: user interface: well . so um i 'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it 's about what is the user going to do , i think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: mm-hmm . yep . user interface: so what 's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . so well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the tv set , as mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the tv and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the tv and uh um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . so p as um anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you do n't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the tv . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: and um so generally mm i do n't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard tv remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . and if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . then there is uh this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it does n't have teletext option , it can without any , it 's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch . and then you have uh what 's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . and then whi which is generally used by the people . and then well personal preferences i would uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the uh the f a tv and the remote video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video 's remote control and the tv they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with marketing: okay . how would that work ? so you 've got say maybe a v_c_r_ and a tv which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home i 've got a v_c_r_ remote which then changes the channel on the v_c_r_ and does n't do anything on the tv , user interface: yeah . marketing: so is it gon na be like a switch on the remote that says t use the tv or use the v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but um uh yo you you you still ca n't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the v_c_r_ option marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you could play it or you can also think about having like um i in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program . marketing: mm . user interface: in that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . marketing: mm . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: these are kind of next generation functionalities . user interface: it 's the next generation thing , project manager: mm yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . marketing: mm . project manager: but i think it 's i i it 's already there , user interface: it 's goi project manager: i mean the hard disk uh recorders uh i i 've seen them in the shop . user interface: yeah it 's marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so industrial designer: mm 'kay . user interface: it 's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard tv thing . marketing: mm . yeah . that 's fair enough . mm . but i do n't think we 're trying to make a universal remote here . that 's , user interface: no no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , i have a tv and tomorrow i am going to have set up box marketing: mm . user interface: which is going to sit there and uh it 's going to do that job for me . marketing: mm . because y project manager: w w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mean , you can go pretty far i f i think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects marketing: mm . yep . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . so project manager: but it 's good to keep in mind . marketing: mm . user interface: okay so that p ends my presentation . project manager: mm . very well . user interface: well . so we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it 's presently booming up actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your tv . project manager: good . user interface: and thi this is going to come . industrial designer: or even you do n't need to download it , it 's streamed uh online uh yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time i want to watch the movie marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: um , so u um user interface: so . yeah . project manager: i have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh i would like to share them with you . um marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but it 's it 's getting used less and less . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's especially because of the internet of course . marketing: hmm . project manager: so we should think about it um . do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . marketing: mm . project manager: uh as uh a in any case it 's it 's not used , well very much , but it 's it is still used . um marketing: mm . user interface: um . project manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you ca n't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ? user interface: marketing: so d_v_d_s and v_c_r_s ? project manager: uh indeed indeed . marketing: mm . project manager: and and and the hard disk recorders . um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh y younger customers and then with younger customers i mean people uh below the age of forty , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh which well industrial designer: fourteen project manager: forty . industrial designer: or for o okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so project manager: that 's to that 's i mean there 's a market but uh they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you 'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that 's w we should make our our our r_c_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah it 's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: mm . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you do n't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh marketing: mm . project manager: ma maybe maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh marketing: mm . but i think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we 're going after a younger market , user interface: yeah so . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . yes yes marketing: that 's the the the mm the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that 's , project manager: yes it 's recognisable industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , there 's lot there 's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . project manager: mm mm . marketing: that 's project manager: and and they are skilled uh by using it . marketing: mm . user interface: so for example uh well uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . .. . user interface: okay , it works . fine . so , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that project manager: mael can you hand me over this uh ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh thank you . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . how much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: mm well marketing: 'cause we have n't talked about demographic at all project manager: i think fi five min user interface: forty minutes ? marketing: and it 's a very important issue . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . too sorry , so we basically do n't change the uh original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't look uh so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six , marketing: mm . mm . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: for you do n't have too many keys marketing: mm . user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: okay . 'kay i i think now that the idea 's clear . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . project manager: uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . which i think is quite tricky . industrial designer: marketing: um , basically we 're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: would n't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: of course they have already one . so our our our remote control has to be better . marketing: but it 's not going to have more functionality , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause it 's only a low market , it 's a cheap-end remote control , we ca n't beat modern functionality , we might we 'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that 's not a big seller , if they 're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i 'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing . project manager: mm . i well i think many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh r_c_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: mm . yeah . but why are they buying one in the first place ? project manager: but indeed . so that will be about functionality marketing: mm . but if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they 'll buy a universal remote . i 've got friends who 've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they 're using five different remotes for their all their things . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . mm . marketing: in that case they would n't buy our product , because it does n't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: so your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: well , we ca n't , with the price range . we we 're not building a universal remote , we 're not building a high end product . project manager: what do what do you think about what componen industrial designer: yeah we have yeah twelve point five euros uh per uh per r_ s r_c_ marketing: mm . industrial designer: and i think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . and um but yeah marketing: but yeah . if we 're getting into universal remote territory , we 're getting to lcd screens and things like that industrial designer: that 's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . project manager: i do n't know . i do n't know whether that 's necessary . industrial designer: ye project manager: is the lcd screen marketing: for universal remotes industrial designer: i do n't think lcd is not necessary well , th for long term . marketing: if you mm . project manager: i think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive . marketing: and quite complicated to use , project manager: s so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated marketing: mm-hmm . not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh r_c_ industrial designer: universal . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: but if we 're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own tvs to use a remote control on . project manager: mm yes but w we 're targeting i think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . marketing: okay . so they 're yeah . project manager: people yes . who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yep . i do n't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . are we gon na be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? i do n't know . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think uh when we think it over i thi i think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . industrial designer: marketing: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so d do you agree ? user interface: well well i it 's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive . industrial designer: yeah user interface: uh and it d uh our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gon na b we are gon na sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is uh price of a chip is very cheap . marketing: mm . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so i 'm okay for designing um a ne uh less yeah a a kind of universal uh r_c_ yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . you think it 's possible for the twelve euro fifty ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control . user interface: uh yeah , that 's that 's what we needed basically . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: uh that 's needed right now . and uh basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: yeah that 's needed , yeah . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: and if we want to get the market , we really need that . marketing: yeah . so i guess what i 'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , v_c_r_ and tv . user interface: actu industrial designer: yes . exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: and just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . industrial designer: is that okay for you ? yeah . project manager: mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: so given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market . marketing: mm-hmm yep . user interface: voila . hmm . project manager: so anyone uh has a point to bring in user interface: so . well . project manager: or shall we no . user interface: oh i do n't have anything right now . we can we 'll we 'll go industrial designer: oh project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's that 's fine then . user interface: and we 'll i 'm sure we 'll up something good marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: w yes , user interface: for the project manager: we uh we can have lunch now . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um then th th the next meeting will uh user interface: yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . but you will be informed via the computer . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: cool . so see you later . industrial designer: okay perfect .

project manager first brought up teletext as a well-known feature of televisions , but then admitted that it was becoming obsolete due to the development of the internet , though it was still used . under this circumstance , project manager put forward two options , one of which was to stop at the television phase , and the other was to go further to the phase of the recording device . then he started to talk about target customers in the first place and laid teletext issues on the table .

what were the advantages of big thick keys proposed by user interface ? </s> user interface: okay . project manager: so i see all everybody 's here , 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and we can start meeting . user interface: okay . marketing: what 's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: the i will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you . marketing: okay . project manager: um as you can see here . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: perfect . project manager: so first uh just to mention i will take notes uh of this meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh i will try to work them out and give them to you . i 've also made notes of the previous meeting and um i was about to send them you but then uh i had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: next . project manager: um . industrial designer: so y you are the secretary also . project manager: yes . indeed . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: then i hope you all have uh worked out some some uh some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . industrial designer: perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh . user interface: project manager: um . w we will uh in a minute we will uh start with them . um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . um then i will uh bring in some some some new requirements i i got uh from the uh account manager , i try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . uh um about the functions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: mm . industrial designer: you mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: yes i mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this , marketing: mm . user interface: industrial designer: oh the customers , okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: the customers , indeed yes . think that 's that 's important matter . marketing: that 's the big question yeah . project manager: uh . so and then uh we will close this meeting uh user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we 'll uh we 'll have a lunch . good . um . maybe um why uh anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: no , i do n't . project manager: you do n't have presentation ? marketing: i was n't . no . project manager: uh you want a table to to uh marketing: i c i can talk about it but i have no slides or anything . project manager: yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um . marketing: mm-hmm . well i 've just been um presented with some research we 've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . um . it 's probably ca n't email this to you , i 've just got a web page with some data on it . um basically it 's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . um . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . um . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they 're watching television . uh . fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they 've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: mm . marketing: um . project manager: do you do you have this uh information on the web page you said ? marketing: i have an a web page yes . project manager: yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . uh about this . marketing: yep . yep , sure . mm-hmm . so basically um there 's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um and then there 's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . project manager: mm . marketing: um . teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . um . project manager: mm . marketing: an interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . um . project manager: yes yes , i have that too . industrial designer: marketing: thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that 's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . project manager: mm . marketing: um . industrial designer: it 's it 's easy to learn or how do you say it 's marketing: thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . yep . industrial designer: okay too much time to learn . okay . marketing: um . and thirty twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: not enough marketing: i do n't know how we 'd go about combating that . user interface: . what do you mean there ? marketing: for r_s_i_ ? respet repetitive strain injury . user interface: okay . marketing: so . but project manager: mm . they think that or do their doctor the doctor says ? marketing: mm . project manager: but it 's it 's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ? marketing: yeah . that 's what the report says yeah . project manager: so mm . marketing: um and then it 's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: maybe y y you can not put this webpage online on the marketing: uh i should be able to actually , if i email it to you now . user interface: you can disconnect it there project manager: you can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: oh no , yeah . industrial designer: ah it 's it okay it 's a webpage on the c_ it 's a file marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: um , s hang on . industrial designer: o otherwise you yeah . you can connect this one . project manager: user interface: then you can connect this one or this one yeah . project manager: user interface: all to your computer . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well . industrial designer: so these are important numbers that matthew and i need to take into account for our functional um user interface: oh yeah . project manager: marketing: oh i need to muck around with this . it 's probably easier if you put it on yours and then i 'll just email it to you . it 's just a web link . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design . user interface: hmm . yeah . marketing: one thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important . marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control . industrial designer: speech recognition in marketing: and who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . project manager: d do you have numbers o o on that ? industrial designer: ah okay . marketing: yes , i 'll just get this up . industrial designer: so that we do n't do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: well potentially yeah , um project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . marketing: i think even for interesti industrial designer: okay . interesting idea . marketing: yeah i think that would not work so well . you wan na have both options . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it does n't matter where it is , my well it 's we should be in range , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . but the these are all quite fancy features industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve euro fi and fifty cents . user interface: well it would be f marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no you ca n't . industrial designer: and we do n't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: oh . well , it depends you know like there is uh it 's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but it 's quite noisy if there is the tv uh shouting . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: it 's it 's going to be li project manager: that that that that 's mm . user interface: it 's not going to be s so easy but u usually it 's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: do you have some more important facts user interface: but it 's but i do n't know with twenty fi marketing: um project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: okay . so marketing: well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: this is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . project manager: mm . user interface: okay it 's uh decline . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: but we sh project manager: mm-hmm . decline with age , mm . marketing: yeah , it really depends where we 're gon na be targeting this product , um , user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: which we 'll be talking about later i think . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yes . we will talk about it later . marketing: did you get the email ? project manager: okay . marketing: yep , that one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: just follow that link . industrial designer: i thi you us marketing: it 'll be in a different window , yep . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: that 's left that one . project manager: marketing: yep . industrial designer: okay perfect . .. . marketing: mm . so that 's the figure that i was just talking about there , with the different demographics . user interface: okay . marketing: another thing it 's talking about there is the lcd screen but there 's no figures apparently on that . project manager: mm . okay . um industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: uh maybe uh mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ? industrial designer: yeah . mm i okay project manager: oh , industrial designer: i stay project manager: this is user interface: now you can move i think yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh . industrial designer: i can move as far as maybe i take your chair ? project manager: yes . you can you can sa take my chair . industrial designer: i okay . user interface: it 's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: sorry ? oh . user interface: go to the . yeah . industrial designer: so i think as everybody knows uh i 'm the uh industrial designer . and uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um is gon na focus on the working design of the the remote control . um i 'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you do n't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because i think in the product it is important . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . so my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first the the main point is that i would wish to to make a really functional product . i would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and does n't work . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so for that yeah as it 's important to take into account the user requirements from the marketing uh expert uh anna marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and i show you the the working design . so um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want . uh we want an on off button , it can be uh it 's simple but it 's it 's important , and also uh the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . so the components i quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that 's my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . this is very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you do n't agree on it on that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um so what i have found and after a lot of work actually i i draw this i draw for you this uh schema marketing: well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: you drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . project manager: is huh marketing: ninety one . industrial designer: and uh that 's it so i wo n't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . marketing: project manager: no . industrial designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components . project manager: and and why do you want these kind of component ? industrial designer: so . so project manager: i mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? what were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it 's expensive , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that 's it for the working design , uh i hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components project manager: yes . it it it 's more clear now i think . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: so user interface: but is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: no no no no we we will uh this is a preference but we can always change uh project manager: mm-hmm . what i w what i was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , i mean can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . so we we must adapt to the to the receiver . industrial designer: of course yeah . project manager: i i suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh . industrial designer: yeah . we will use uh infrared protocol uh using yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles . project manager: mm . mm . mm . mm . yes . okay . industrial designer: um . okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: well it to du it 's just you had to change the frequencies . industrial designer: the frequencies ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . of course yeah user interface: but you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other tvs , so basically through all the things . industrial designer: that can control o other things . yeah . marketing: ah . project manager: mm . user interface: so maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: that 's handy . project manager: yeah yes marketing: so if the b tv in the next apartment 's really loud , you can just turn it off . project manager: i i i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: in the uh user interface: yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone 's tv and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: you do n't have to be near the tv at all . marketing: yeah . i like that idea . project manager: i i feel i i i think m mael will will consider this uh th these things . user interface: project manager: maybe maybe we can go to to your presentation uh matthew . user interface: yeah project manager: i i i assume you were finished here . user interface: so . industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh okay . user interface: okay . so i can take i think mine now there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay so voila . marketing: user interface: hmm i can take mine it 's okay , voila , mm so mm . okay . project manager: oh . i uh , sorry ? i know where it is . user interface: it 's on the desktop . project manager: it 's uh user interface: technical function . project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's uh user interface: like so . project manager: user interface: well . so um i 'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it 's about what is the user going to do , i think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: mm-hmm . yep . user interface: so what 's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . so well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the tv set , as mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the tv and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the tv and uh um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . so p as um anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you do n't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the tv . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: and um so generally mm i do n't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard tv remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . and if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . then there is uh this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it does n't have teletext option , it can without any , it 's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch . and then you have uh what 's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . and then whi which is generally used by the people . and then well personal preferences i would uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the uh the f a tv and the remote video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video 's remote control and the tv they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with marketing: okay . how would that work ? so you 've got say maybe a v_c_r_ and a tv which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home i 've got a v_c_r_ remote which then changes the channel on the v_c_r_ and does n't do anything on the tv , user interface: yeah . marketing: so is it gon na be like a switch on the remote that says t use the tv or use the v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but um uh yo you you you still ca n't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the v_c_r_ option marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you could play it or you can also think about having like um i in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program . marketing: mm . user interface: in that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . marketing: mm . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: these are kind of next generation functionalities . user interface: it 's the next generation thing , project manager: mm yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . marketing: mm . project manager: but i think it 's i i it 's already there , user interface: it 's goi project manager: i mean the hard disk uh recorders uh i i 've seen them in the shop . user interface: yeah it 's marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so industrial designer: mm 'kay . user interface: it 's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard tv thing . marketing: mm . yeah . that 's fair enough . mm . but i do n't think we 're trying to make a universal remote here . that 's , user interface: no no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , i have a tv and tomorrow i am going to have set up box marketing: mm . user interface: which is going to sit there and uh it 's going to do that job for me . marketing: mm . because y project manager: w w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mean , you can go pretty far i f i think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects marketing: mm . yep . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . so project manager: but it 's good to keep in mind . marketing: mm . user interface: okay so that p ends my presentation . project manager: mm . very well . user interface: well . so we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it 's presently booming up actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your tv . project manager: good . user interface: and thi this is going to come . industrial designer: or even you do n't need to download it , it 's streamed uh online uh yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time i want to watch the movie marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: um , so u um user interface: so . yeah . project manager: i have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh i would like to share them with you . um marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but it 's it 's getting used less and less . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's especially because of the internet of course . marketing: hmm . project manager: so we should think about it um . do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . marketing: mm . project manager: uh as uh a in any case it 's it 's not used , well very much , but it 's it is still used . um marketing: mm . user interface: um . project manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you ca n't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ? user interface: marketing: so d_v_d_s and v_c_r_s ? project manager: uh indeed indeed . marketing: mm . project manager: and and and the hard disk recorders . um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh y younger customers and then with younger customers i mean people uh below the age of forty , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh which well industrial designer: fourteen project manager: forty . industrial designer: or for o okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so project manager: that 's to that 's i mean there 's a market but uh they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you 'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that 's w we should make our our our r_c_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah it 's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: mm . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you do n't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh marketing: mm . project manager: ma maybe maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh marketing: mm . but i think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we 're going after a younger market , user interface: yeah so . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . yes yes marketing: that 's the the the mm the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that 's , project manager: yes it 's recognisable industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , there 's lot there 's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . project manager: mm mm . marketing: that 's project manager: and and they are skilled uh by using it . marketing: mm . user interface: so for example uh well uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . .. . user interface: okay , it works . fine . so , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that project manager: mael can you hand me over this uh ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh thank you . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . how much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: mm well marketing: 'cause we have n't talked about demographic at all project manager: i think fi five min user interface: forty minutes ? marketing: and it 's a very important issue . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . too sorry , so we basically do n't change the uh original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't look uh so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six , marketing: mm . mm . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: for you do n't have too many keys marketing: mm . user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: okay . 'kay i i think now that the idea 's clear . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . project manager: uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . which i think is quite tricky . industrial designer: marketing: um , basically we 're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: would n't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: of course they have already one . so our our our remote control has to be better . marketing: but it 's not going to have more functionality , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause it 's only a low market , it 's a cheap-end remote control , we ca n't beat modern functionality , we might we 'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that 's not a big seller , if they 're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i 'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing . project manager: mm . i well i think many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh r_c_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: mm . yeah . but why are they buying one in the first place ? project manager: but indeed . so that will be about functionality marketing: mm . but if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they 'll buy a universal remote . i 've got friends who 've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they 're using five different remotes for their all their things . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . mm . marketing: in that case they would n't buy our product , because it does n't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: so your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: well , we ca n't , with the price range . we we 're not building a universal remote , we 're not building a high end product . project manager: what do what do you think about what componen industrial designer: yeah we have yeah twelve point five euros uh per uh per r_ s r_c_ marketing: mm . industrial designer: and i think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . and um but yeah marketing: but yeah . if we 're getting into universal remote territory , we 're getting to lcd screens and things like that industrial designer: that 's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . project manager: i do n't know . i do n't know whether that 's necessary . industrial designer: ye project manager: is the lcd screen marketing: for universal remotes industrial designer: i do n't think lcd is not necessary well , th for long term . marketing: if you mm . project manager: i think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive . marketing: and quite complicated to use , project manager: s so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated marketing: mm-hmm . not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh r_c_ industrial designer: universal . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: but if we 're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own tvs to use a remote control on . project manager: mm yes but w we 're targeting i think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . marketing: okay . so they 're yeah . project manager: people yes . who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yep . i do n't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . are we gon na be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? i do n't know . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think uh when we think it over i thi i think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . industrial designer: marketing: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so d do you agree ? user interface: well well i it 's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive . industrial designer: yeah user interface: uh and it d uh our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gon na b we are gon na sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is uh price of a chip is very cheap . marketing: mm . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so i 'm okay for designing um a ne uh less yeah a a kind of universal uh r_c_ yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . you think it 's possible for the twelve euro fifty ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control . user interface: uh yeah , that 's that 's what we needed basically . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: uh that 's needed right now . and uh basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: yeah that 's needed , yeah . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: and if we want to get the market , we really need that . marketing: yeah . so i guess what i 'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , v_c_r_ and tv . user interface: actu industrial designer: yes . exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: and just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . industrial designer: is that okay for you ? yeah . project manager: mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: so given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market . marketing: mm-hmm yep . user interface: voila . hmm . project manager: so anyone uh has a point to bring in user interface: so . well . project manager: or shall we no . user interface: oh i do n't have anything right now . we can we 'll we 'll go industrial designer: oh project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's that 's fine then . user interface: and we 'll i 'm sure we 'll up something good marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: w yes , user interface: for the project manager: we uh we can have lunch now . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um then th th the next meeting will uh user interface: yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . but you will be informed via the computer . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: cool . so see you later . industrial designer: okay perfect .

user interface gained the inspiration of big thick keys for remote control from mobile phones , which were already skillfully used by the younger generation and thus made thick keys familiar to youngsters . also , according to marketing , compared with ordinary keys for rc , thick keys fitted in with the trend , especially among youngsters . moreover , every team member agreed that with thick design , keys would look less cluttered and more spacious .

summarize the group discussion about the target group and corresponding functionalities . </s> user interface: okay . project manager: so i see all everybody 's here , 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and we can start meeting . user interface: okay . marketing: what 's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: the i will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you . marketing: okay . project manager: um as you can see here . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: perfect . project manager: so first uh just to mention i will take notes uh of this meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh i will try to work them out and give them to you . i 've also made notes of the previous meeting and um i was about to send them you but then uh i had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: next . project manager: um . industrial designer: so y you are the secretary also . project manager: yes . indeed . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: then i hope you all have uh worked out some some uh some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . industrial designer: perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh . user interface: project manager: um . w we will uh in a minute we will uh start with them . um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . um then i will uh bring in some some some new requirements i i got uh from the uh account manager , i try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . uh um about the functions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: mm . industrial designer: you mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: yes i mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this , marketing: mm . user interface: industrial designer: oh the customers , okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: the customers , indeed yes . think that 's that 's important matter . marketing: that 's the big question yeah . project manager: uh . so and then uh we will close this meeting uh user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we 'll uh we 'll have a lunch . good . um . maybe um why uh anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: no , i do n't . project manager: you do n't have presentation ? marketing: i was n't . no . project manager: uh you want a table to to uh marketing: i c i can talk about it but i have no slides or anything . project manager: yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um . marketing: mm-hmm . well i 've just been um presented with some research we 've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . um . it 's probably ca n't email this to you , i 've just got a web page with some data on it . um basically it 's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . um . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . um . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they 're watching television . uh . fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they 've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: mm . marketing: um . project manager: do you do you have this uh information on the web page you said ? marketing: i have an a web page yes . project manager: yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . uh about this . marketing: yep . yep , sure . mm-hmm . so basically um there 's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um and then there 's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . project manager: mm . marketing: um . teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . um . project manager: mm . marketing: an interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . um . project manager: yes yes , i have that too . industrial designer: marketing: thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that 's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . project manager: mm . marketing: um . industrial designer: it 's it 's easy to learn or how do you say it 's marketing: thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . yep . industrial designer: okay too much time to learn . okay . marketing: um . and thirty twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: not enough marketing: i do n't know how we 'd go about combating that . user interface: . what do you mean there ? marketing: for r_s_i_ ? respet repetitive strain injury . user interface: okay . marketing: so . but project manager: mm . they think that or do their doctor the doctor says ? marketing: mm . project manager: but it 's it 's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ? marketing: yeah . that 's what the report says yeah . project manager: so mm . marketing: um and then it 's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: maybe y y you can not put this webpage online on the marketing: uh i should be able to actually , if i email it to you now . user interface: you can disconnect it there project manager: you can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: oh no , yeah . industrial designer: ah it 's it okay it 's a webpage on the c_ it 's a file marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: um , s hang on . industrial designer: o otherwise you yeah . you can connect this one . project manager: user interface: then you can connect this one or this one yeah . project manager: user interface: all to your computer . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well . industrial designer: so these are important numbers that matthew and i need to take into account for our functional um user interface: oh yeah . project manager: marketing: oh i need to muck around with this . it 's probably easier if you put it on yours and then i 'll just email it to you . it 's just a web link . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design . user interface: hmm . yeah . marketing: one thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important . marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control . industrial designer: speech recognition in marketing: and who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . project manager: d do you have numbers o o on that ? industrial designer: ah okay . marketing: yes , i 'll just get this up . industrial designer: so that we do n't do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: well potentially yeah , um project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . marketing: i think even for interesti industrial designer: okay . interesting idea . marketing: yeah i think that would not work so well . you wan na have both options . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it does n't matter where it is , my well it 's we should be in range , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . but the these are all quite fancy features industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve euro fi and fifty cents . user interface: well it would be f marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no you ca n't . industrial designer: and we do n't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: oh . well , it depends you know like there is uh it 's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but it 's quite noisy if there is the tv uh shouting . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: it 's it 's going to be li project manager: that that that that 's mm . user interface: it 's not going to be s so easy but u usually it 's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: do you have some more important facts user interface: but it 's but i do n't know with twenty fi marketing: um project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: okay . so marketing: well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: this is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . project manager: mm . user interface: okay it 's uh decline . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: but we sh project manager: mm-hmm . decline with age , mm . marketing: yeah , it really depends where we 're gon na be targeting this product , um , user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: which we 'll be talking about later i think . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yes . we will talk about it later . marketing: did you get the email ? project manager: okay . marketing: yep , that one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: just follow that link . industrial designer: i thi you us marketing: it 'll be in a different window , yep . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: that 's left that one . project manager: marketing: yep . industrial designer: okay perfect . .. . marketing: mm . so that 's the figure that i was just talking about there , with the different demographics . user interface: okay . marketing: another thing it 's talking about there is the lcd screen but there 's no figures apparently on that . project manager: mm . okay . um industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: uh maybe uh mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ? industrial designer: yeah . mm i okay project manager: oh , industrial designer: i stay project manager: this is user interface: now you can move i think yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh . industrial designer: i can move as far as maybe i take your chair ? project manager: yes . you can you can sa take my chair . industrial designer: i okay . user interface: it 's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: sorry ? oh . user interface: go to the . yeah . industrial designer: so i think as everybody knows uh i 'm the uh industrial designer . and uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um is gon na focus on the working design of the the remote control . um i 'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you do n't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because i think in the product it is important . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . so my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first the the main point is that i would wish to to make a really functional product . i would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and does n't work . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so for that yeah as it 's important to take into account the user requirements from the marketing uh expert uh anna marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and i show you the the working design . so um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want . uh we want an on off button , it can be uh it 's simple but it 's it 's important , and also uh the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . so the components i quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that 's my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . this is very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you do n't agree on it on that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um so what i have found and after a lot of work actually i i draw this i draw for you this uh schema marketing: well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: you drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . project manager: is huh marketing: ninety one . industrial designer: and uh that 's it so i wo n't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . marketing: project manager: no . industrial designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components . project manager: and and why do you want these kind of component ? industrial designer: so . so project manager: i mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? what were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it 's expensive , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that 's it for the working design , uh i hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components project manager: yes . it it it 's more clear now i think . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: so user interface: but is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: no no no no we we will uh this is a preference but we can always change uh project manager: mm-hmm . what i w what i was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , i mean can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . so we we must adapt to the to the receiver . industrial designer: of course yeah . project manager: i i suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh . industrial designer: yeah . we will use uh infrared protocol uh using yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles . project manager: mm . mm . mm . mm . yes . okay . industrial designer: um . okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: well it to du it 's just you had to change the frequencies . industrial designer: the frequencies ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . of course yeah user interface: but you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other tvs , so basically through all the things . industrial designer: that can control o other things . yeah . marketing: ah . project manager: mm . user interface: so maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: that 's handy . project manager: yeah yes marketing: so if the b tv in the next apartment 's really loud , you can just turn it off . project manager: i i i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: in the uh user interface: yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone 's tv and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: you do n't have to be near the tv at all . marketing: yeah . i like that idea . project manager: i i feel i i i think m mael will will consider this uh th these things . user interface: project manager: maybe maybe we can go to to your presentation uh matthew . user interface: yeah project manager: i i i assume you were finished here . user interface: so . industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh okay . user interface: okay . so i can take i think mine now there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay so voila . marketing: user interface: hmm i can take mine it 's okay , voila , mm so mm . okay . project manager: oh . i uh , sorry ? i know where it is . user interface: it 's on the desktop . project manager: it 's uh user interface: technical function . project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's uh user interface: like so . project manager: user interface: well . so um i 'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it 's about what is the user going to do , i think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: mm-hmm . yep . user interface: so what 's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . so well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the tv set , as mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the tv and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the tv and uh um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . so p as um anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you do n't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the tv . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: and um so generally mm i do n't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard tv remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . and if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . then there is uh this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it does n't have teletext option , it can without any , it 's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch . and then you have uh what 's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . and then whi which is generally used by the people . and then well personal preferences i would uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the uh the f a tv and the remote video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video 's remote control and the tv they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with marketing: okay . how would that work ? so you 've got say maybe a v_c_r_ and a tv which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home i 've got a v_c_r_ remote which then changes the channel on the v_c_r_ and does n't do anything on the tv , user interface: yeah . marketing: so is it gon na be like a switch on the remote that says t use the tv or use the v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but um uh yo you you you still ca n't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the v_c_r_ option marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you could play it or you can also think about having like um i in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program . marketing: mm . user interface: in that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . marketing: mm . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: these are kind of next generation functionalities . user interface: it 's the next generation thing , project manager: mm yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . marketing: mm . project manager: but i think it 's i i it 's already there , user interface: it 's goi project manager: i mean the hard disk uh recorders uh i i 've seen them in the shop . user interface: yeah it 's marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so industrial designer: mm 'kay . user interface: it 's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard tv thing . marketing: mm . yeah . that 's fair enough . mm . but i do n't think we 're trying to make a universal remote here . that 's , user interface: no no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , i have a tv and tomorrow i am going to have set up box marketing: mm . user interface: which is going to sit there and uh it 's going to do that job for me . marketing: mm . because y project manager: w w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mean , you can go pretty far i f i think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects marketing: mm . yep . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . so project manager: but it 's good to keep in mind . marketing: mm . user interface: okay so that p ends my presentation . project manager: mm . very well . user interface: well . so we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it 's presently booming up actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your tv . project manager: good . user interface: and thi this is going to come . industrial designer: or even you do n't need to download it , it 's streamed uh online uh yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time i want to watch the movie marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: um , so u um user interface: so . yeah . project manager: i have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh i would like to share them with you . um marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but it 's it 's getting used less and less . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's especially because of the internet of course . marketing: hmm . project manager: so we should think about it um . do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . marketing: mm . project manager: uh as uh a in any case it 's it 's not used , well very much , but it 's it is still used . um marketing: mm . user interface: um . project manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you ca n't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ? user interface: marketing: so d_v_d_s and v_c_r_s ? project manager: uh indeed indeed . marketing: mm . project manager: and and and the hard disk recorders . um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh y younger customers and then with younger customers i mean people uh below the age of forty , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh which well industrial designer: fourteen project manager: forty . industrial designer: or for o okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so project manager: that 's to that 's i mean there 's a market but uh they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you 'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that 's w we should make our our our r_c_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah it 's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: mm . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you do n't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh marketing: mm . project manager: ma maybe maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh marketing: mm . but i think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we 're going after a younger market , user interface: yeah so . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . yes yes marketing: that 's the the the mm the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that 's , project manager: yes it 's recognisable industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , there 's lot there 's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . project manager: mm mm . marketing: that 's project manager: and and they are skilled uh by using it . marketing: mm . user interface: so for example uh well uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . .. . user interface: okay , it works . fine . so , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that project manager: mael can you hand me over this uh ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh thank you . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . how much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: mm well marketing: 'cause we have n't talked about demographic at all project manager: i think fi five min user interface: forty minutes ? marketing: and it 's a very important issue . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . too sorry , so we basically do n't change the uh original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't look uh so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six , marketing: mm . mm . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: for you do n't have too many keys marketing: mm . user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: okay . 'kay i i think now that the idea 's clear . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . project manager: uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . which i think is quite tricky . industrial designer: marketing: um , basically we 're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: would n't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: of course they have already one . so our our our remote control has to be better . marketing: but it 's not going to have more functionality , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause it 's only a low market , it 's a cheap-end remote control , we ca n't beat modern functionality , we might we 'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that 's not a big seller , if they 're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i 'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing . project manager: mm . i well i think many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh r_c_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: mm . yeah . but why are they buying one in the first place ? project manager: but indeed . so that will be about functionality marketing: mm . but if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they 'll buy a universal remote . i 've got friends who 've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they 're using five different remotes for their all their things . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . mm . marketing: in that case they would n't buy our product , because it does n't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: so your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: well , we ca n't , with the price range . we we 're not building a universal remote , we 're not building a high end product . project manager: what do what do you think about what componen industrial designer: yeah we have yeah twelve point five euros uh per uh per r_ s r_c_ marketing: mm . industrial designer: and i think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . and um but yeah marketing: but yeah . if we 're getting into universal remote territory , we 're getting to lcd screens and things like that industrial designer: that 's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . project manager: i do n't know . i do n't know whether that 's necessary . industrial designer: ye project manager: is the lcd screen marketing: for universal remotes industrial designer: i do n't think lcd is not necessary well , th for long term . marketing: if you mm . project manager: i think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive . marketing: and quite complicated to use , project manager: s so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated marketing: mm-hmm . not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh r_c_ industrial designer: universal . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: but if we 're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own tvs to use a remote control on . project manager: mm yes but w we 're targeting i think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . marketing: okay . so they 're yeah . project manager: people yes . who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yep . i do n't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . are we gon na be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? i do n't know . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think uh when we think it over i thi i think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . industrial designer: marketing: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so d do you agree ? user interface: well well i it 's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive . industrial designer: yeah user interface: uh and it d uh our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gon na b we are gon na sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is uh price of a chip is very cheap . marketing: mm . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so i 'm okay for designing um a ne uh less yeah a a kind of universal uh r_c_ yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . you think it 's possible for the twelve euro fifty ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control . user interface: uh yeah , that 's that 's what we needed basically . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: uh that 's needed right now . and uh basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: yeah that 's needed , yeah . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: and if we want to get the market , we really need that . marketing: yeah . so i guess what i 'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , v_c_r_ and tv . user interface: actu industrial designer: yes . exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: and just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . industrial designer: is that okay for you ? yeah . project manager: mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: so given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market . marketing: mm-hmm yep . user interface: voila . hmm . project manager: so anyone uh has a point to bring in user interface: so . well . project manager: or shall we no . user interface: oh i do n't have anything right now . we can we 'll we 'll go industrial designer: oh project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's that 's fine then . user interface: and we 'll i 'm sure we 'll up something good marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: w yes , user interface: for the project manager: we uh we can have lunch now . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um then th th the next meeting will uh user interface: yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . but you will be informed via the computer . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: cool . so see you later . industrial designer: okay perfect .

when projected manager announced that the group should decide on the target group , marketing thought that with a tight budget , the functionality of the product would be greatly restricted . hence , only a low market could be reached . however , after a brief discussion about lcr screen , project manager brought back the idea of universal remote control , and the group reached a consensus on the feasibility of designing a basic universal remote control at a low cost .

who did marketing think the remote control should target and why ? </s> user interface: okay . project manager: so i see all everybody 's here , 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and we can start meeting . user interface: okay . marketing: what 's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: the i will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you . marketing: okay . project manager: um as you can see here . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: perfect . project manager: so first uh just to mention i will take notes uh of this meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh i will try to work them out and give them to you . i 've also made notes of the previous meeting and um i was about to send them you but then uh i had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: next . project manager: um . industrial designer: so y you are the secretary also . project manager: yes . indeed . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: then i hope you all have uh worked out some some uh some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . industrial designer: perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh . user interface: project manager: um . w we will uh in a minute we will uh start with them . um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . um then i will uh bring in some some some new requirements i i got uh from the uh account manager , i try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . uh um about the functions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: mm . industrial designer: you mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: yes i mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this , marketing: mm . user interface: industrial designer: oh the customers , okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: the customers , indeed yes . think that 's that 's important matter . marketing: that 's the big question yeah . project manager: uh . so and then uh we will close this meeting uh user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we 'll uh we 'll have a lunch . good . um . maybe um why uh anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: no , i do n't . project manager: you do n't have presentation ? marketing: i was n't . no . project manager: uh you want a table to to uh marketing: i c i can talk about it but i have no slides or anything . project manager: yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um . marketing: mm-hmm . well i 've just been um presented with some research we 've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . um . it 's probably ca n't email this to you , i 've just got a web page with some data on it . um basically it 's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . um . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . um . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they 're watching television . uh . fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they 've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: mm . marketing: um . project manager: do you do you have this uh information on the web page you said ? marketing: i have an a web page yes . project manager: yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . uh about this . marketing: yep . yep , sure . mm-hmm . so basically um there 's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um and then there 's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . project manager: mm . marketing: um . teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . um . project manager: mm . marketing: an interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . um . project manager: yes yes , i have that too . industrial designer: marketing: thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that 's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . project manager: mm . marketing: um . industrial designer: it 's it 's easy to learn or how do you say it 's marketing: thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . yep . industrial designer: okay too much time to learn . okay . marketing: um . and thirty twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: not enough marketing: i do n't know how we 'd go about combating that . user interface: . what do you mean there ? marketing: for r_s_i_ ? respet repetitive strain injury . user interface: okay . marketing: so . but project manager: mm . they think that or do their doctor the doctor says ? marketing: mm . project manager: but it 's it 's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ? marketing: yeah . that 's what the report says yeah . project manager: so mm . marketing: um and then it 's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: maybe y y you can not put this webpage online on the marketing: uh i should be able to actually , if i email it to you now . user interface: you can disconnect it there project manager: you can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: oh no , yeah . industrial designer: ah it 's it okay it 's a webpage on the c_ it 's a file marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: um , s hang on . industrial designer: o otherwise you yeah . you can connect this one . project manager: user interface: then you can connect this one or this one yeah . project manager: user interface: all to your computer . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well . industrial designer: so these are important numbers that matthew and i need to take into account for our functional um user interface: oh yeah . project manager: marketing: oh i need to muck around with this . it 's probably easier if you put it on yours and then i 'll just email it to you . it 's just a web link . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design . user interface: hmm . yeah . marketing: one thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important . marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control . industrial designer: speech recognition in marketing: and who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . project manager: d do you have numbers o o on that ? industrial designer: ah okay . marketing: yes , i 'll just get this up . industrial designer: so that we do n't do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: well potentially yeah , um project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . marketing: i think even for interesti industrial designer: okay . interesting idea . marketing: yeah i think that would not work so well . you wan na have both options . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it does n't matter where it is , my well it 's we should be in range , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . but the these are all quite fancy features industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve euro fi and fifty cents . user interface: well it would be f marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no you ca n't . industrial designer: and we do n't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: oh . well , it depends you know like there is uh it 's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but it 's quite noisy if there is the tv uh shouting . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: it 's it 's going to be li project manager: that that that that 's mm . user interface: it 's not going to be s so easy but u usually it 's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: do you have some more important facts user interface: but it 's but i do n't know with twenty fi marketing: um project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: okay . so marketing: well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: this is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . project manager: mm . user interface: okay it 's uh decline . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: but we sh project manager: mm-hmm . decline with age , mm . marketing: yeah , it really depends where we 're gon na be targeting this product , um , user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: which we 'll be talking about later i think . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yes . we will talk about it later . marketing: did you get the email ? project manager: okay . marketing: yep , that one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: just follow that link . industrial designer: i thi you us marketing: it 'll be in a different window , yep . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: that 's left that one . project manager: marketing: yep . industrial designer: okay perfect . .. . marketing: mm . so that 's the figure that i was just talking about there , with the different demographics . user interface: okay . marketing: another thing it 's talking about there is the lcd screen but there 's no figures apparently on that . project manager: mm . okay . um industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: uh maybe uh mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ? industrial designer: yeah . mm i okay project manager: oh , industrial designer: i stay project manager: this is user interface: now you can move i think yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh . industrial designer: i can move as far as maybe i take your chair ? project manager: yes . you can you can sa take my chair . industrial designer: i okay . user interface: it 's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: sorry ? oh . user interface: go to the . yeah . industrial designer: so i think as everybody knows uh i 'm the uh industrial designer . and uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um is gon na focus on the working design of the the remote control . um i 'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you do n't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because i think in the product it is important . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . so my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first the the main point is that i would wish to to make a really functional product . i would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and does n't work . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so for that yeah as it 's important to take into account the user requirements from the marketing uh expert uh anna marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and i show you the the working design . so um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want . uh we want an on off button , it can be uh it 's simple but it 's it 's important , and also uh the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . so the components i quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that 's my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . this is very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you do n't agree on it on that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um so what i have found and after a lot of work actually i i draw this i draw for you this uh schema marketing: well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: you drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . project manager: is huh marketing: ninety one . industrial designer: and uh that 's it so i wo n't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . marketing: project manager: no . industrial designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components . project manager: and and why do you want these kind of component ? industrial designer: so . so project manager: i mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? what were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it 's expensive , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that 's it for the working design , uh i hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components project manager: yes . it it it 's more clear now i think . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: so user interface: but is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: no no no no we we will uh this is a preference but we can always change uh project manager: mm-hmm . what i w what i was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , i mean can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . so we we must adapt to the to the receiver . industrial designer: of course yeah . project manager: i i suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh . industrial designer: yeah . we will use uh infrared protocol uh using yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles . project manager: mm . mm . mm . mm . yes . okay . industrial designer: um . okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: well it to du it 's just you had to change the frequencies . industrial designer: the frequencies ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . of course yeah user interface: but you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other tvs , so basically through all the things . industrial designer: that can control o other things . yeah . marketing: ah . project manager: mm . user interface: so maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: that 's handy . project manager: yeah yes marketing: so if the b tv in the next apartment 's really loud , you can just turn it off . project manager: i i i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: in the uh user interface: yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone 's tv and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: you do n't have to be near the tv at all . marketing: yeah . i like that idea . project manager: i i feel i i i think m mael will will consider this uh th these things . user interface: project manager: maybe maybe we can go to to your presentation uh matthew . user interface: yeah project manager: i i i assume you were finished here . user interface: so . industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh okay . user interface: okay . so i can take i think mine now there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay so voila . marketing: user interface: hmm i can take mine it 's okay , voila , mm so mm . okay . project manager: oh . i uh , sorry ? i know where it is . user interface: it 's on the desktop . project manager: it 's uh user interface: technical function . project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's uh user interface: like so . project manager: user interface: well . so um i 'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it 's about what is the user going to do , i think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: mm-hmm . yep . user interface: so what 's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . so well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the tv set , as mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the tv and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the tv and uh um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . so p as um anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you do n't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the tv . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: and um so generally mm i do n't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard tv remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . and if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . then there is uh this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it does n't have teletext option , it can without any , it 's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch . and then you have uh what 's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . and then whi which is generally used by the people . and then well personal preferences i would uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the uh the f a tv and the remote video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video 's remote control and the tv they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with marketing: okay . how would that work ? so you 've got say maybe a v_c_r_ and a tv which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home i 've got a v_c_r_ remote which then changes the channel on the v_c_r_ and does n't do anything on the tv , user interface: yeah . marketing: so is it gon na be like a switch on the remote that says t use the tv or use the v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but um uh yo you you you still ca n't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the v_c_r_ option marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you could play it or you can also think about having like um i in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program . marketing: mm . user interface: in that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . marketing: mm . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: these are kind of next generation functionalities . user interface: it 's the next generation thing , project manager: mm yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . marketing: mm . project manager: but i think it 's i i it 's already there , user interface: it 's goi project manager: i mean the hard disk uh recorders uh i i 've seen them in the shop . user interface: yeah it 's marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so industrial designer: mm 'kay . user interface: it 's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard tv thing . marketing: mm . yeah . that 's fair enough . mm . but i do n't think we 're trying to make a universal remote here . that 's , user interface: no no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , i have a tv and tomorrow i am going to have set up box marketing: mm . user interface: which is going to sit there and uh it 's going to do that job for me . marketing: mm . because y project manager: w w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mean , you can go pretty far i f i think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects marketing: mm . yep . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . so project manager: but it 's good to keep in mind . marketing: mm . user interface: okay so that p ends my presentation . project manager: mm . very well . user interface: well . so we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it 's presently booming up actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your tv . project manager: good . user interface: and thi this is going to come . industrial designer: or even you do n't need to download it , it 's streamed uh online uh yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time i want to watch the movie marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: um , so u um user interface: so . yeah . project manager: i have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh i would like to share them with you . um marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but it 's it 's getting used less and less . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's especially because of the internet of course . marketing: hmm . project manager: so we should think about it um . do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . marketing: mm . project manager: uh as uh a in any case it 's it 's not used , well very much , but it 's it is still used . um marketing: mm . user interface: um . project manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you ca n't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ? user interface: marketing: so d_v_d_s and v_c_r_s ? project manager: uh indeed indeed . marketing: mm . project manager: and and and the hard disk recorders . um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh y younger customers and then with younger customers i mean people uh below the age of forty , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh which well industrial designer: fourteen project manager: forty . industrial designer: or for o okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so project manager: that 's to that 's i mean there 's a market but uh they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you 'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that 's w we should make our our our r_c_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah it 's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: mm . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you do n't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh marketing: mm . project manager: ma maybe maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh marketing: mm . but i think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we 're going after a younger market , user interface: yeah so . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . yes yes marketing: that 's the the the mm the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that 's , project manager: yes it 's recognisable industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , there 's lot there 's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . project manager: mm mm . marketing: that 's project manager: and and they are skilled uh by using it . marketing: mm . user interface: so for example uh well uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . .. . user interface: okay , it works . fine . so , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that project manager: mael can you hand me over this uh ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh thank you . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . how much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: mm well marketing: 'cause we have n't talked about demographic at all project manager: i think fi five min user interface: forty minutes ? marketing: and it 's a very important issue . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . too sorry , so we basically do n't change the uh original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't look uh so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six , marketing: mm . mm . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: for you do n't have too many keys marketing: mm . user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: okay . 'kay i i think now that the idea 's clear . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . project manager: uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . which i think is quite tricky . industrial designer: marketing: um , basically we 're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: would n't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: of course they have already one . so our our our remote control has to be better . marketing: but it 's not going to have more functionality , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause it 's only a low market , it 's a cheap-end remote control , we ca n't beat modern functionality , we might we 'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that 's not a big seller , if they 're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i 'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing . project manager: mm . i well i think many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh r_c_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: mm . yeah . but why are they buying one in the first place ? project manager: but indeed . so that will be about functionality marketing: mm . but if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they 'll buy a universal remote . i 've got friends who 've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they 're using five different remotes for their all their things . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . mm . marketing: in that case they would n't buy our product , because it does n't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: so your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: well , we ca n't , with the price range . we we 're not building a universal remote , we 're not building a high end product . project manager: what do what do you think about what componen industrial designer: yeah we have yeah twelve point five euros uh per uh per r_ s r_c_ marketing: mm . industrial designer: and i think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . and um but yeah marketing: but yeah . if we 're getting into universal remote territory , we 're getting to lcd screens and things like that industrial designer: that 's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . project manager: i do n't know . i do n't know whether that 's necessary . industrial designer: ye project manager: is the lcd screen marketing: for universal remotes industrial designer: i do n't think lcd is not necessary well , th for long term . marketing: if you mm . project manager: i think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive . marketing: and quite complicated to use , project manager: s so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated marketing: mm-hmm . not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh r_c_ industrial designer: universal . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: but if we 're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own tvs to use a remote control on . project manager: mm yes but w we 're targeting i think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . marketing: okay . so they 're yeah . project manager: people yes . who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yep . i do n't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . are we gon na be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? i do n't know . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think uh when we think it over i thi i think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . industrial designer: marketing: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so d do you agree ? user interface: well well i it 's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive . industrial designer: yeah user interface: uh and it d uh our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gon na b we are gon na sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is uh price of a chip is very cheap . marketing: mm . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so i 'm okay for designing um a ne uh less yeah a a kind of universal uh r_c_ yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . you think it 's possible for the twelve euro fifty ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control . user interface: uh yeah , that 's that 's what we needed basically . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: uh that 's needed right now . and uh basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: yeah that 's needed , yeah . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: and if we want to get the market , we really need that . marketing: yeah . so i guess what i 'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , v_c_r_ and tv . user interface: actu industrial designer: yes . exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: and just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . industrial designer: is that okay for you ? yeah . project manager: mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: so given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market . marketing: mm-hmm yep . user interface: voila . hmm . project manager: so anyone uh has a point to bring in user interface: so . well . project manager: or shall we no . user interface: oh i do n't have anything right now . we can we 'll we 'll go industrial designer: oh project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's that 's fine then . user interface: and we 'll i 'm sure we 'll up something good marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: w yes , user interface: for the project manager: we uh we can have lunch now . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um then th th the next meeting will uh user interface: yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . but you will be informed via the computer . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: cool . so see you later . industrial designer: okay perfect .

marketing thought that remote control should be targeted at a low market . first , considering the tight budget , marketing described the product as a cheap-end remote control , which would hardly gain the advantage over competitors in functionality . by saying that she implied that a high-end rc for a high market should be equipped with sophisticated functions , which were not possessed by a low-cost one anyway . therefore , only a low market may want to buy it .

what decision did the group make on universal remote ? </s> user interface: okay . project manager: so i see all everybody 's here , 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . project manager: and we can start meeting . user interface: okay . marketing: what 's the agenda for this meeting ? project manager: the i will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you . marketing: okay . project manager: um as you can see here . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: perfect . project manager: so first uh just to mention i will take notes uh of this meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh i will try to work them out and give them to you . i 've also made notes of the previous meeting and um i was about to send them you but then uh i had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: next . project manager: um . industrial designer: so y you are the secretary also . project manager: yes . indeed . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: then i hope you all have uh worked out some some uh some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting . industrial designer: perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh . user interface: project manager: um . w we will uh in a minute we will uh start with them . um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . um then i will uh bring in some some some new requirements i i got uh from the uh account manager , i try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . uh um about the functions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and well in this meeting we should really try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the marketing: mm . industrial designer: you mean the social target group who we wants to target ? project manager: yes i mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this , marketing: mm . user interface: industrial designer: oh the customers , okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: the customers , indeed yes . think that 's that 's important matter . marketing: that 's the big question yeah . project manager: uh . so and then uh we will close this meeting uh user interface: project manager: and after this meeting we 'll uh we 'll have a lunch . good . um . maybe um why uh anna can you c do you have a presentations ? marketing: no , i do n't . project manager: you do n't have presentation ? marketing: i was n't . no . project manager: uh you want a table to to uh marketing: i c i can talk about it but i have no slides or anything . project manager: yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um . marketing: mm-hmm . well i 've just been um presented with some research we 've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . um . it 's probably ca n't email this to you , i 've just got a web page with some data on it . um basically it 's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . um . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . um . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they 're watching television . uh . fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they 've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that . project manager: mm . marketing: um . project manager: do you do you have this uh information on the web page you said ? marketing: i have an a web page yes . project manager: yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . uh about this . marketing: yep . yep , sure . mm-hmm . so basically um there 's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um and then there 's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently . project manager: mm . marketing: um . teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . um . project manager: mm . marketing: an interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . um . project manager: yes yes , i have that too . industrial designer: marketing: thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that 's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps . project manager: mm . marketing: um . industrial designer: it 's it 's easy to learn or how do you say it 's marketing: thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . yep . industrial designer: okay too much time to learn . okay . marketing: um . and thirty twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: not enough marketing: i do n't know how we 'd go about combating that . user interface: . what do you mean there ? marketing: for r_s_i_ ? respet repetitive strain injury . user interface: okay . marketing: so . but project manager: mm . they think that or do their doctor the doctor says ? marketing: mm . project manager: but it 's it 's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ? marketing: yeah . that 's what the report says yeah . project manager: so mm . marketing: um and then it 's got a demographic breakdown on industrial designer: maybe y y you can not put this webpage online on the marketing: uh i should be able to actually , if i email it to you now . user interface: you can disconnect it there project manager: you can maybe just just user interface: no ? marketing: oh no , yeah . industrial designer: ah it 's it okay it 's a webpage on the c_ it 's a file marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: um , s hang on . industrial designer: o otherwise you yeah . you can connect this one . project manager: user interface: then you can connect this one or this one yeah . project manager: user interface: all to your computer . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well . industrial designer: so these are important numbers that matthew and i need to take into account for our functional um user interface: oh yeah . project manager: marketing: oh i need to muck around with this . it 's probably easier if you put it on yours and then i 'll just email it to you . it 's just a web link . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design . user interface: hmm . yeah . marketing: one thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the hang on a minute . industrial designer: because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important . marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control . industrial designer: speech recognition in marketing: and who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful . project manager: d do you have numbers o o on that ? industrial designer: ah okay . marketing: yes , i 'll just get this up . industrial designer: so that we do n't do we not need any button on the remote control marketing: well potentially yeah , um project manager: user interface: industrial designer: it would be all based on speech . marketing: i think even for interesti industrial designer: okay . interesting idea . marketing: yeah i think that would not work so well . you wan na have both options . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it does n't matter where it is , my well it 's we should be in range , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . but the these are all quite fancy features industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm not sure whether we will we can make this for for twelve euro fi and fifty cents . user interface: well it would be f marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no you ca n't . industrial designer: and we do n't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ? user interface: oh . well , it depends you know like there is uh it 's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but it 's quite noisy if there is the tv uh shouting . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: it 's it 's going to be li project manager: that that that that 's mm . user interface: it 's not going to be s so easy but u usually it 's going to be more of an isolated case project manager: do you have some more important facts user interface: but it 's but i do n't know with twenty fi marketing: um project manager: or can we go to the next presentation ? industrial designer: okay . so marketing: well industrial designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the marketing: this is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five . project manager: mm . user interface: okay it 's uh decline . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: but we sh project manager: mm-hmm . decline with age , mm . marketing: yeah , it really depends where we 're gon na be targeting this product , um , user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: which we 'll be talking about later i think . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yes . we will talk about it later . marketing: did you get the email ? project manager: okay . marketing: yep , that one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: just follow that link . industrial designer: i thi you us marketing: it 'll be in a different window , yep . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: that 's left that one . project manager: marketing: yep . industrial designer: okay perfect . .. . marketing: mm . so that 's the figure that i was just talking about there , with the different demographics . user interface: okay . marketing: another thing it 's talking about there is the lcd screen but there 's no figures apparently on that . project manager: mm . okay . um industrial designer: mm 'kay . project manager: uh maybe uh mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ? industrial designer: yeah . mm i okay project manager: oh , industrial designer: i stay project manager: this is user interface: now you can move i think yeah . project manager: mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh . industrial designer: i can move as far as maybe i take your chair ? project manager: yes . you can you can sa take my chair . industrial designer: i okay . user interface: it 's a channel selection , a module , this and this function , marketing: sorry ? oh . user interface: go to the . yeah . industrial designer: so i think as everybody knows uh i 'm the uh industrial designer . and uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um is gon na focus on the working design of the the remote control . um i 'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you do n't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because i think in the product it is important . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . so my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first the the main point is that i would wish to to make a really functional product . i would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and does n't work . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so for that yeah as it 's important to take into account the user requirements from the marketing uh expert uh anna marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and i show you the the working design . so um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want . uh we want an on off button , it can be uh it 's simple but it 's it 's important , and also uh the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after , marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . so the components i quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that 's my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . this is very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you do n't agree on it on that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um so what i have found and after a lot of work actually i i draw this i draw for you this uh schema marketing: well . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me marketing: you drew it a long time ago ? industrial designer: you know . project manager: is huh marketing: ninety one . industrial designer: and uh that 's it so i wo n't go into details about that project manager: overwhelming . marketing: project manager: no . industrial designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components . project manager: and and why do you want these kind of component ? industrial designer: so . so project manager: i mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? what were your industrial designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it 's expensive , project manager: mm . industrial designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that 's it for the working design , uh i hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components project manager: yes . it it it 's more clear now i think . industrial designer: but maybe yeah project manager: so user interface: but is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma industrial designer: no no no no we we will uh this is a preference but we can always change uh project manager: mm-hmm . what i w what i was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , i mean can you can you get back to it ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . so we we must adapt to the to the receiver . industrial designer: of course yeah . project manager: i i suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh . industrial designer: yeah . we will use uh infrared protocol uh using yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles . project manager: mm . mm . mm . mm . yes . okay . industrial designer: um . okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: well it to du it 's just you had to change the frequencies . industrial designer: the frequencies ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . of course yeah user interface: but you should be careful , industrial designer: in the chip you have it yeah . user interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other tvs , so basically through all the things . industrial designer: that can control o other things . yeah . marketing: ah . project manager: mm . user interface: so maybe we should think of marketing: industrial designer: of course yeah we should take that into account marketing: that 's handy . project manager: yeah yes marketing: so if the b tv in the next apartment 's really loud , you can just turn it off . project manager: i i i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: in the uh user interface: yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone 's tv and you can just walk away industrial designer: user interface: you do n't have to be near the tv at all . marketing: yeah . i like that idea . project manager: i i feel i i i think m mael will will consider this uh th these things . user interface: project manager: maybe maybe we can go to to your presentation uh matthew . user interface: yeah project manager: i i i assume you were finished here . user interface: so . industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh okay . user interface: okay . so i can take i think mine now there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay so voila . marketing: user interface: hmm i can take mine it 's okay , voila , mm so mm . okay . project manager: oh . i uh , sorry ? i know where it is . user interface: it 's on the desktop . project manager: it 's uh user interface: technical function . project manager: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's uh user interface: like so . project manager: user interface: well . so um i 'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it 's about what is the user going to do , i think my last presented what is going inside , marketing: mm-hmm . yep . user interface: so what 's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . so well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the tv set , as mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the tv and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the tv and uh um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . so p as um anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you do n't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the tv . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: and um so generally mm i do n't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard tv remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . and if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . then there is uh this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it does n't have teletext option , it can without any , it 's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch . and then you have uh what 's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . and then whi which is generally used by the people . and then well personal preferences i would uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the we could have both the uh the f a tv and the remote video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video 's remote control and the tv they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with marketing: okay . how would that work ? so you 've got say maybe a v_c_r_ and a tv which are separate , user interface: marketing: so you on my one at home i 've got a v_c_r_ remote which then changes the channel on the v_c_r_ and does n't do anything on the tv , user interface: yeah . marketing: so is it gon na be like a switch on the remote that says t use the tv or use the v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah . marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ? user interface: um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but um uh yo you you you still ca n't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the v_c_r_ option marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you could play it or you can also think about having like um i in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you marketing: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program . marketing: mm . user interface: in that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities . marketing: mm . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: these are kind of next generation functionalities . user interface: it 's the next generation thing , project manager: mm yes , user interface: but it is going to come in couple of years . marketing: mm . project manager: but i think it 's i i it 's already there , user interface: it 's goi project manager: i mean the hard disk uh recorders uh i i 've seen them in the shop . user interface: yeah it 's marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so industrial designer: mm 'kay . user interface: it 's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard tv thing . marketing: mm . yeah . that 's fair enough . mm . but i do n't think we 're trying to make a universal remote here . that 's , user interface: no no we are not making a universal remote , marketing: yeah . user interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , i have a tv and tomorrow i am going to have set up box marketing: mm . user interface: which is going to sit there and uh it 's going to do that job for me . marketing: mm . because y project manager: w w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mean , you can go pretty far i f i think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects marketing: mm . yep . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . so project manager: but it 's good to keep in mind . marketing: mm . user interface: okay so that p ends my presentation . project manager: mm . very well . user interface: well . so we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it 's presently booming up actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your tv . project manager: good . user interface: and thi this is going to come . industrial designer: or even you do n't need to download it , it 's streamed uh online uh yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time i want to watch the movie marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: um , so u um user interface: so . yeah . project manager: i have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh i would like to share them with you . um marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but it 's it 's getting used less and less . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's especially because of the internet of course . marketing: hmm . project manager: so we should think about it um . do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself . marketing: mm . project manager: uh as uh a in any case it 's it 's not used , well very much , but it 's it is still used . um marketing: mm . user interface: um . project manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you ca n't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ? user interface: marketing: so d_v_d_s and v_c_r_s ? project manager: uh indeed indeed . marketing: mm . project manager: and and and the hard disk recorders . um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh y younger customers and then with younger customers i mean people uh below the age of forty , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh which well industrial designer: fourteen project manager: forty . industrial designer: or for o okay . project manager: so industrial designer: so project manager: that 's to that 's i mean there 's a market but uh they will grow older older marketing: project manager: and you 'll al always need to have the the future with younger people . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um therefore , younger people like trendy trendy designs , so that 's w we should make our our our r_c_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all . marketing: mm . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah it 's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys marketing: mm . user interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you do n't see two separate keys there actually industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh marketing: mm . project manager: ma maybe maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh marketing: mm . but i think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we 're going after a younger market , user interface: yeah so . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: hmm . yes yes marketing: that 's the the the mm the new and the funky things , project manager: mo industrial designer: because they are already used to that , you know , product . marketing: that 's , project manager: yes it 's recognisable industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , there 's lot there 's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls . project manager: mm mm . marketing: that 's project manager: and and they are skilled uh by using it . marketing: mm . user interface: so for example uh well uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . .. . user interface: okay , it works . fine . so , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that project manager: mael can you hand me over this uh ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: uh thank you . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . how much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? project manager: mm well marketing: 'cause we have n't talked about demographic at all project manager: i think fi five min user interface: forty minutes ? marketing: and it 's a very important issue . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . too sorry , so we basically do n't change the uh original order of them industrial designer: user interface: but then the keys are more spacious , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't look uh so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six , marketing: mm . mm . user interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: for you do n't have too many keys marketing: mm . user interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to project manager: okay . 'kay i i think now that the idea 's clear . industrial designer: yep . marketing: mm . project manager: uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . which i think is quite tricky . industrial designer: marketing: um , basically we 're trying to get people to buy a remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: would n't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? user interface: project manager: of course they have already one . so our our our remote control has to be better . marketing: but it 's not going to have more functionality , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause it 's only a low market , it 's a cheap-end remote control , we ca n't beat modern functionality , we might we 'll be able to beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that 's not a big seller , if they 're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i 'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing . project manager: mm . i well i think many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh r_c_ is is important when they are buying one marketing: mm . yeah . but why are they buying one in the first place ? project manager: but indeed . so that will be about functionality marketing: mm . but if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they 'll buy a universal remote . i 've got friends who 've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they 're using five different remotes for their all their things . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . mm . marketing: in that case they would n't buy our product , because it does n't give them what they need in terms of functionality . project manager: so your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance marketing: well , we ca n't , with the price range . we we 're not building a universal remote , we 're not building a high end product . project manager: what do what do you think about what componen industrial designer: yeah we have yeah twelve point five euros uh per uh per r_ s r_c_ marketing: mm . industrial designer: and i think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . and um but yeah marketing: but yeah . if we 're getting into universal remote territory , we 're getting to lcd screens and things like that industrial designer: that 's marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot . project manager: i do n't know . i do n't know whether that 's necessary . industrial designer: ye project manager: is the lcd screen marketing: for universal remotes industrial designer: i do n't think lcd is not necessary well , th for long term . marketing: if you mm . project manager: i think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive . marketing: and quite complicated to use , project manager: s so we can try to go in between , marketing: yes . project manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated marketing: mm-hmm . not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh r_c_ industrial designer: universal . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: but if we 're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own tvs to use a remote control on . project manager: mm yes but w we 're targeting i think on more on the on the twenty to forty group . marketing: okay . so they 're yeah . project manager: people yes . who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yep . i do n't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . are we gon na be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? i do n't know . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think uh when we think it over i thi i think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money . industrial designer: marketing: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so d do you agree ? user interface: well well i it 's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive . industrial designer: yeah user interface: uh and it d uh our provin industrial designer: because we have to take into account that we are gon na b we are gon na sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is uh price of a chip is very cheap . marketing: mm . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so i 'm okay for designing um a ne uh less yeah a a kind of universal uh r_c_ yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . you think it 's possible for the twelve euro fifty ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control . user interface: uh yeah , that 's that 's what we needed basically . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: uh that 's needed right now . and uh basically you can look to the standards of other industrial designer: yeah that 's needed , yeah . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: and if we want to get the market , we really need that . marketing: yeah . so i guess what i 'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , v_c_r_ and tv . user interface: actu industrial designer: yes . exactly . user interface: yeah . marketing: and just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them . industrial designer: is that okay for you ? yeah . project manager: mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: so given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content industrial designer: yes . marketing: mm . user interface: okay . okay . project manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market . marketing: mm-hmm yep . user interface: voila . hmm . project manager: so anyone uh has a point to bring in user interface: so . well . project manager: or shall we no . user interface: oh i do n't have anything right now . we can we 'll we 'll go industrial designer: oh project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's that 's fine then . user interface: and we 'll i 'm sure we 'll up something good marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: w yes , user interface: for the project manager: we uh we can have lunch now . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um then th th the next meeting will uh user interface: yeah so we meet in well what are our project manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . but you will be informed via the computer . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: cool . so see you later . industrial designer: okay perfect .

when marketing first touched on the idea of a universal remote , she quickly rebutted herself , arguing that a high-end product was not achievable with a tight budget . however , project manager said that the group could make an attempt to provide a basic version of universal control , which could switch between stereo , vc , and tv . thus , the group agreed to give universal remote a try and see if they could design a cheap one within budget .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

after project manager recapped the decisions made in the last meeting , such as having a child lock and display clock , user interface started the presentation regarding how to make the interface more attractive to customers . then , industrial designer gave the presentation on the component design of the remote , which was divided into two parts - the components in the remote and the working design . afterwards , marketing reported findings for marketing like the people wanting fewer buttons which the functions were obvious . in the end , project manager wrapped up the meeting , concluding what had to be done by each of them for the next meeting .

summarize the recap of the last meeting . </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

the general idea for the remote was that it should be easy to use , attractive and electricity saving . people might lose it a lot and it could be sold by using a slogan . for the technical aspect , the remote should have a chip with an interface that controls it , infrared bulbs , battery , wires , buttons and holder . there should be extra features such as timer , lid buttons , on-off button , channel lock and display clock . the remote could be in different shapes , preferably compact and t-shaped . the material should be of non-allergic nature . the different systems that exist were infrared and radio-waves .

what would be the interface design of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

there would be nine channel switches and a memory switch . there would be buttons for the next channel , subtitles , increasing and decreasing volume , mute and controlling features like colour , contrast , sharpness , brightness of picture . there also could be a speech recognition feature , which would be an integrated programmable sample sensor speaker unit that had voice recognizers to record the user 's voice and change functionalities accordingly . it was agreed that the interface should be simple with important features .

what did the team think about the slides with different types of the interface during the discussion of the interface design ? </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

the interfaces shown on the slides were a remote that had voice recognizer with multi-purpose use such as for tv and cable-satellite , a simple and compact one that a child can use and could play with it and a big oversized remote that can not be misplaced . the team agreed that the t-shaped design and the children-friendly interface were nice but the over-big one was not ideal .

what were the components discussed during the presentation of the component design that were required for the construction of the remote control ? </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

there should be a strong and recyclable case that was not made from harmful materials such as plastic . a resistor , capacitor , diode , transistor , circuit board and resonator should be in the remote , along with a timer and alarm facility . the integrated circuit could be highly sophisticated for higher efficiency and should be resistant to high and low temperatures . also , colouring components could be used if the remote was to have different colours . for the battery , it could be rechargeable as people can use it for a long time and saves costs for production .

what did industrial designer say about the working design of the remote during the discussion of the component design ? </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

when a button was pressed , a small circuit underneath the button would send signals through the wires to the chip . the chip would know which button was pressed and produce a morse code signal specific to that button , which the transistor would amplify the signal . the led would receive the signal and translate it into infrared light . the sensor on the tv would receive the infrared light which contained the signals and would react accordingly .

what was agreed by the team about the component design ? </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

it was agreed that the circuit board would be printed in bulk as it would be cheaper with no wires and both regular and advanced chips could be made on print , including the infrared sender . a scroll wheel , presented as an alternative to push buttons , required a more sophisticated chip , making it more costly than push buttons , which require a regular chip . hence , the team agreed to have push buttons to save cost . on the other hand , the case would be bright , colourful and strong with a trendy design . the battery was foreseen to be the energy source of the remote .

what was left open to discuss about the component design ? </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

materials could be made from plastic , rubber or wood and the remote could be in different cases . speech recognition was pending for more research on how much it cost . in addition , there were doubts from industrial designer on this feature as there might be trouble in recognizing different voices .

summarize the presentation about findings for marketing . </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

people liked something that fit their hand and fewer buttons which the functions were obvious . they did n't want to squint at small prints and did n't care for different modes . the appearance of the remote should be eye-catching and appealing . the remote had to be in the market before competition for christmas . fruit and vegetable shapes were very popular this year and people were back into a soft and spongy feel with a little cloth . the star features of the remote should be narrowed down to one or two and voice recognizer could be an option .

summarize the wrap up of the meeting . </s> project manager: okay . hello everyone . industrial designer: hi . user interface: hi . marketing: hi . project manager: um how uh how we doing ? industrial designer: yeah , good . project manager: uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the within the budget uh that was given . uh in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . um it 's also an item that people lose a lot . so we should address that . and , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . in addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive , marketing: project manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that 's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , i go home and think about it , that wo n't work . um also mentioned was it should be uh it should have a very short learning curve . and maybe it could be sold by using a slogan . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip marketing: project manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . there should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . if too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . so the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . francino who is our um user interface: interface designer . project manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . particularly with maybe small children that they could n't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . it should be compact . her personal favourite was it should be t-shaped . and maybe have an anar alarm-clock . and the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature . marketing: project manager: and even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote . user interface: yes . project manager: uh are we all in agreement that that 's about what we discussed last time ? okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think that pretty much is it . yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: okay , then we i 'm looking for three presentations . and uh i do n't know whether the order matters much uh , i do n't i do n't think so , so whoever w wants user interface: okay , i can start first . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: okay . now my slide , please . project manager: okay , your slides . okay . oh , come on , close already . marketing: project manager: and that 's number two , right ? user interface: three . project manager: three . user interface: participant three . yes . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: now as an interface designer , i would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . next , please . okay . now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . this messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine . project manager: nine what ? nine channel uh switches ? user interface: pardon me ? project manager: nine channel switches ? is yeah . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yes , nine numbers . and then you have swapping of uh button project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: by which using which you can swap the channels if you do n't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: going to the nex next . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . for example , if you are watching a french program and you would like to have a subtitles in english , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the the subtitles on the screen . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . now there should be a memory switch . there should be a mute button . suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he does n't want to switch off the uh tv , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can uh while talking he can watch the tv . now the most important feature i would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . it 's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . so a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the uh yeah , the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so the tv will have some recogniser which will recognise the user 's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . so this is one one of the interface which can be created . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: a very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , please , next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . so you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . even a kid can use that . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so can you go on t t uh to the next slide . yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: user interface: and this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for tv , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for v_c_r_ , d_v_d_s and audio . and this has in-built voice recogniser . project manager: user interface: can you go on to the next slide ? yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh this is user-friendly , it 's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . and this comes with different colours , different shapes . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons marketing: user interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . next slide , please . now this is a big over-sized remote which can not be misplaced or it 's impossible to misplace . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: you do n't know me . user interface: this . marketing: i could lose that in a minute . user interface: project manager: user interface: so this is no this is a very big , you can not misplace it anywhere . marketing: user interface: so this is a jumbo universal remote control and it 's impossible to im misplace or lose . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this i this is one such interface which can be created . and the personal preference uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user 's voice for a particular uh function . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . right . user interface: thank you , that 's project manager: mm-hmm . okay , thank you very much . uh any comments on uh her presentation ? marketing: well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um what uh i 'm no suggestion 's bad . user interface: mm yes . marketing: but uh we 're gon na have to narrow it down a little more . i do n't think that we can get uh the t-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , i think it 's just funny . user interface: okay . marketing: um i do n't think that 's gon na be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , i i th i think user interface: okay . marketing: it 's it 's gon na be a little bit too unwieldy . user interface: project manager: no , i think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after marketing: yeah mm . mm-hmm . have to come back to that later . okay . user interface: we can . project manager: but if i just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation . marketing: no , i think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . yeah . project manager: mm right . mm-hmm . ho who wants to go next um ? mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , maybe . project manager: and you industrial designer: participant two . marketing: project manager: uh okay . industrial designer: uh the next one , sorry . project manager: oops . industrial designer: it 's it was the old one . project manager: the components design . industrial designer: components . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: um this time i 'm i 'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh , can you go on to the next slide , please . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i have just brief uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction . marketing: industrial designer: uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it 's like uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , you know , if you if it falls down , then it does n't break . so it should be strong . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . and it should be recyclable . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and uh , marketing: mm-hmm . good point . industrial designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . and uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit . marketing: industrial designer: uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it 's like the it 's like the heart of the remote controller . if it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one . and it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . and uh it should be with uh um equipped with timer and alarm facility . and the uh other component we should uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m i think it 's it 's like a battery , capacitor . can you go on to the next slide , please ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are which we have to use in a remote controller . a battery uh , i would like to suggest one thing uh if we uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it ca n't l it ca n't charge much . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it it it 's not a high voltage battery . then also we can if it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . and we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . can you go to the next slide , please . and how it works , how the remote controller works . project manager: go away . industrial designer: thank you . uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires , marketing: industrial designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed . marketing: industrial designer: it pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the l_e_d_ which translates the signal into infrared light . like you have got a signal by pressing a button . that 's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . that is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller . it will amplify the signal and it will send it to the l_e_d_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . the sensor on the tv can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . then it will do the appropriate action . so uh this is how the remote controller works . user interface: it works . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . yeah , i have few pictures . when you look at the uh um remote controller uh it 's it 's it this is a normal remote controller . and to the next slide , please . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and where we had a a few buttons and all . and uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm yeah , and di and a diode transistor . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the electronic components uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d diode transistors an yeah , di um can y uh you can see the t_a_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm yes . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh you can also see the uh uh the green two green things are uh these are they are they are resistors , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . uh and also there are uh um resistors uh sorry , ther there is a diode . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: can you go go on to the next slide . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh this is the circuit board . the green one is a circuit board . actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it 's a it 's a l l inexpensive . uh it 's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh uh when you when you are building uh some circuits some um uh circuits and also wires , it 's it 's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it 's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you do n't need to use wires and all . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's not exactly wires we are using . it 's just printing something on a board . marketing: industrial designer: tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . so th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit . user interface: transmit . industrial designer: can you go to the next slide , please . uh so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . uh can you see the black uh , round marks ? project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: they they are the circuits . marketing: yes . industrial designer: next , please . and um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls . uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh uh uh full a complete chip . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . so that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . uh . marketing: hmm , that 's interesting . industrial designer: yeah . uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . uh usually , the cases and card flat that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and you have more pictures . uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting . industrial designer: yeah , maybe d uh i have just one more slide , i think . um . like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we ca n't use . um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . um yeah the uh for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . an yeah , that 's it . it 's all for me now , project manager: okay , well thank you . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: any particular comments by anybody ? marketing: uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? industrial designer: no , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh which which we used to do before ten ten years before , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all . marketing: industrial designer: so i think it 's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons . marketing: um . we 'll just go for push buttons industrial designer: yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . yeah . user interface: push-buttons . marketing: for in the interest of cost . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: we do n't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing . marketing: okay . go right to my first my next slide . project manager: uh okay . marketing: um alright , my method is uh i 'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wan na see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so i 've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . i s i spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . and then when i 'm out um in people 's houses or at meetings or anything like that , i try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it 's convenient in the conversation i ask about it . and i would encourage you all to do the same . um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . um people like something that really fits in their hand . user interface: 'kay . marketing: simple is beautiful . they do n't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they do n't care for the mode thing . they want each button to do something . and eye-catching is important . it 's got ta look cute , it 's got ta look appealing . go ahead , i 'm trying to finish fast for you . um and our preference is , as far as i 'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their christmas item . and we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . if we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we do n't get anywhere . so we 've got ta narrow our selection down to li two things , i think , that we gon na say are really great about our our our new product . and i 've been looking around um at what designs every year different things are popular . and in my research this year i found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . and people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . they are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . so those are things maybe we wan na look at as far as saleability of the item . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . and what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh so what do we think on the concept marketing: project manager: of the remote ? marketing: you wan na try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ? project manager: y user interface: uh yes , i would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so speech recognition is most important as far as you 're concerned ? user interface: this could be uh one feature which could be sellable . industrial designer: yeah , but w marketing: yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature . project manager: i think that 's industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that that be really good , yeah , i agree with that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , but but i what i 'm uh very very much doubtful how how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues . marketing: distance problem ? industrial designer: yeah , it 's not distance problem it it 's recognising a person 's voice , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it 's uh everything so i marketing: uh . project manager: well , you you teach you have to teach uh industrial designer: so to get a good recogni recognising system , it 's a costly thing , i think . marketing: user interface: no , it 's it 's , uh yeah , it it 's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you 're expecting an answer from th for example , you have a tv system , i 'm the user and my family members are the user , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i will already record uh a question like , uh good morning , industrial designer: yeah , but yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: like around eight o'clock i want to see the news in the television . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i 'll say just good morning and the tv will switch on . it will recognise my voice and will switch on . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . what kind of energy do we foresee ? battery . marketing: i think i think battery , project manager: battery . user interface: battery . marketing: and i think we all agreed on that . user interface: yes . marketing: that that 's that 's gon na be most cost-effective and the best thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay then chip on print . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . user interface: yes . project manager: and the case . and i think we all agree on the case , we wan na have something uh maybe bright , colourful . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong . user interface: and compact . industrial designer: and also strong . user interface: trendy design and compact . industrial designer: trendy , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . trendy design , compact and strong . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface concept , uh interface type , supplements marketing: project manager: that will be your area i think , right , jana . industrial designer: uh . um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface . user interface: push-buttons . project manager: put uh k i guess uh for industrial designer: push-buttons . project manager: yeah . and not sure what they mean by supplements . user interface: and industrial designer: yeah . user interface: supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button . marketing: well , i think that yeah , project manager: oh , like marketing: or or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement . project manager: oh . a what ? marketing: her speech recognition feature would be a supplement . project manager: right , right , right , mm-hmm . user interface: recogniser . yes . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: okay , so why do n't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh i_d_ is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the u_i_d_ is supposed to uh come up with the user interface design , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: in this phase , the two of you , jana and francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: you will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches . user interface: industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , i suppose . user interface: marketing: wherever they 're hiding ? industrial designer: project manager: user interface: project manager: um so um i think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: thank you very much . user interface: thank you .

industrial designer was supposed to have the look and feel of the design , user interface should have come up with user interface design and marketing should have the product evaluation for the next meeting . furthermore , user interface and marketing had to work together on a prototype using modelling clay and everyone would receive specific instructions sent by coaches .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay , almost there . project manager: okay . we 'll sta i 'll use the powerpoint , i guess . how was that , was that fun ? user interface: mm . very fun . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . uh oh i 've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but i will do . industrial designer: okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: upsidaisy . um um we marketing: e excuse me i forgot my project manager: yeah . marketing: copy . project manager: alright , okay , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: he 's gon na get his pen . user interface: oh right . okay . project manager: um will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: yeah , there 's good news ? project manager: uh industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . project manager: we have budget problems . industrial designer: oh . cutbacks . project manager: i 'm afraid you 're all sacked . oops . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't even have this on . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay , have you got a presentation to make ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , not mine yet . project manager: no . okay industrial designer: oh . project manager: so it 's just your your show . industrial designer: um maybe we should bring so that the camera can see . yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . sure . industrial designer: okay . project manager: user interface: we made three for you . project manager: three ? oh . user interface: um one 's based on the banana , one 's based on the tomato project manager: tomato ? what tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't recall a tomato . user interface: look . oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over . project manager: ah i see , okay . user interface: so . okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mainly speak recognition . the yellow there is the um project manager: logo . user interface: the slogan , yeah , project manager: okay , brilliant . user interface: that we need to incorporate , it 's very simple . if you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there 's some there , project manager: okay . user interface: um but mainly it 's speech recognition . project manager: okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah and yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: mm i 'm not sure about that . um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier . project manager: right . user interface: yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want . project manager: that 's groovy . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . uh can i have project manager: well i like the feel of it , i like the feel of it . user interface: yeah , sure . um that one is marketing: oh sorry s user interface: oh no , it 's delicate . project manager: at oh dear . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: that 's that 's already got its stand that one . that 's it stand . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: it does also lie flat , but that 's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: okay , brilliant mm . user interface: um the black on the back is the slogan . project manager: okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: uh yeah , that marketing: user interface: well , we did think of that . project manager: if it 's standing up , i guess , yeah . user interface: yeah , if it 's standing up it 's it 's on there , but also we 're gon na have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . project manager: oh right , okay , brilliant . like that from its centre . user interface: so um and that 's the um transmit the l_e_d_ thing . these are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . we n were were n't sure about putting them there , because um i it 's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: where you 're , yeah , uh were you 're holding it kind of user interface: yeah . well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you 've got small hands . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , obviously i do n't think that 's real sized . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it would have to be a bit bigger . project manager: yeah , scale model , yeah . user interface: okay . um that 's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and um then the buttons . yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . tried to keep it simple . oh that 's the charging base prongs at the bottom . project manager: alright , excellent . user interface: we used those . and um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's not in the traditional place , project manager: no . user interface: but um it 's quite an obvious place . project manager: it 's out of the way as well , i suppose , so . excellent . user interface: so there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too . industrial designer: oh yeah , yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: this one is uh , i suppose for the younger audiences . user interface: industrial designer: a a more friendly type of project manager: okay , so so barney the banana . industrial designer: right , right . it 's to uh induce more television watching i suppose or project manager: ah excellent , just what we need . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: say it for the camera . project manager: lo sort of loch ness banana . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: cool yeah . well , nice to have uh options at least . industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay and user interface: so are there any um improvements or issues or industrial designer: it wo n't stand . project manager: oh there are issues , oh there are issues . industrial designer: just let it lie down , it wont stand . user interface: project manager: um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: uh , let 's just enter in the um evaluation criteria . industrial designer: project manager: um unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it 's gon na cost us fourteen point six euros . marketing: mm . user interface: oh . project manager: so we have to industrial designer: what 's on the uh on the left ? project manager: rea sorry , i 've accidentally highlighted somehow um . there we go . industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh god , why is it doing that ? user interface: ooh . project manager: there we go . so basically , um in order to save our two euros um i was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um . user interface: more like a traditional remote control . project manager: yeah , i mean it 's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it would n't have to be curved sort of in and out . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and by doing so oh no , hold on . does n't save us quite as much . i do n't know what 's going on with this again . industrial designer: w why is the uh double curved two of them ? project manager: oh , good point . marketing: and double curve on both sides ? project manager: um . marketing: curve . yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: that 's sort of curve in and out . marketing: no ? industrial designer: is i marketing: this is double-curve . it this one is single curve . industrial designer: mm . marketing: 'cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . so double-curve . project manager: no , i think it means double curved as in um user interface: like an s_ shape . project manager: like uh a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . user interface: okay . project manager: okay , i might be wrong though . marketing: like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side . project manager: i do n't think that counts as a curve , i think that 's just a shape . marketing: hmm . hmm . industrial designer: project manager: a curvature is like the this case . user interface: okay . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: 'cause that 's the uh the biggest expense there , right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: yeah , and why why i 've got it two , i do n't know , i ca n't seem to select any more however . industrial designer: okay . well we can work around that um project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right . no . industrial designer: cut things out . but you think it should be one . project manager: it 's meant to be one , yeah , i do n't know why i put two in there , industrial designer: okay . project manager: but um hold on till i find it , i think this shift button might be stuck again . no maybe the shift button 's stuck in . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: should industrial designer: project manager: oh that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah , so we 're project manager: eleven uh eleven euros sixty . user interface: cool . cool . project manager: um user interface: so we could even add something . project manager: we cou oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately . industrial designer: we should fire the accountants . project manager: what ? industrial designer: fire the accountants . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: ah yeah , we could add things . project manager: industrial designer: maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you 're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: does that work ? project manager: yeah , i know , that just extends it as well . industrial designer: no mm . marketing: uh you can do one thing . project manager: i do n't know . marketing: you just select one box outsi yeah , this box . then move it with the help of this okay . project manager: it one of the buttons is sticking , i do n't know . marketing: just uh just uh okay , just a minute . okay . no input , like this . shift . no it 's not . project manager: no , it 's 'cause the uh the shift button 's stuck , or something . marketing: yeah , it 's not working . industrial designer: is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: should we ask meli project manager: marketing: should we ask our technical expert melissa ? project manager: no that 's fine . um we 've worked out what it would be anyway . industrial designer: did you try both shift buttons ? it could be the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: cancel . piss off . industrial designer: that 's too bad . project manager: oh well , never mind . um . right , so that 's finances and i dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? um user interface: well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: well i suppose that 's our that 's that 's our design that we 've got . so user interface: what do you th we 're trying to save money , so . yeah , if we 're happy with the design there 's no point in spending money , if we do n't have to . project manager: yeah . user interface: but if there is anything you think we 've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . maybe i mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: because it 's not in an ideal place right now . project manager: well that 's that 's uh okay , so project evaluation . we have under twelve euros fifty . project process , how do we think that went ? are we happy ? industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah i think we have a a winning product . project manager: okay . evaluation . oh we 've been writing this up for m months . user interface: i think it went quite smoothly . project manager: uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: w i think we were very creative . industrial designer: project manager: no , i mea i think it means sort of individually . user interface: oh right , okay . project manager: yes , no , maybe ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . groovy . so uh we 're just gon na . uh yeah , okay . teamwork ? leadership , sorry . industrial designer: great leadership . user interface: excellent leadership . marketing: project manager: thank you very much . you 're all get you 're all getting a raise . uh teamwork . i thought went well . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , everyone got enough input , i think . project manager: uh and well means , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , we project manager: the technical stuff was brilliant . marketing: project manager: let 's buy more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh right . um industrial designer: these pens are are neat though . project manager: i do n't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest . marketing: yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . we discussed all the new ideas , but of course we could n't reach any proper goals , we could n't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . these are new ideas we and new shapes , everything project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: . at le project manager: mm 'kay . groovy . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so just general thumbs up for all of us then . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . project manager: that kind of unfortunately is too quick . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: well um . industrial designer: project manager: uh . i suppose yeah . um . industrial designer: uh so let 's talk about our bonuses and the raises we 're getting for this , right . project manager: that 's it , um i think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . user interface: marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: uh let 's see if i can get this bloody thing to work . industrial designer: uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay . project manager: whoops . user interface: yeah , maybe . industrial designer: marketing: so project manager: does it go back in , does it ? reusable . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: something we should get . project manager: i do n't know what this is but it 's really really annoying . marketing: so uh brian , have you have you finished ? project manager: uh-huh . marketing: uh mine needs also this . project manager: um i have , yes . marketing: at last mine is also the presentation . project manager: huh ? oh right , okay , you 've got more , okay . marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: oh , you got a presentation , project manager: sorry uh . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: oh ok project manager: it did n't bother to tell me that on this marketing: s industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . is it ? okay . marketing: uh is the project evaluated , that is mine . project manager: does n't tell me . oh you 're doing that . marketing: yeah . project manager: we evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: uh . user interface: mm , love to eat that now . industrial designer: anybody user interface: kind of a green banana now . project manager: mm . industrial designer: clay covered banana . user interface: it 's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it 'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we 've got . project manager: o okay , hold on . user interface: i 've got . industrial designer: blue . user interface: project manager: i wonder w which cell do i want . industrial designer: it 's fun to touch . user interface: yeah . marketing: so . yeah . project manager: okay , i did n't realise you had that bit . marketing: so . user interface: oh could you pass the tomato please . project manager: user interface: sorry . thank you . marketing: so now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . how we are going to user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: means uh at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not . how mu what rating we will give to these products . so of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . so what methodology i will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this . project manager: okay . marketing: we will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . then marketing strategy of the company . as we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: sorry . sorry , marketing: yeah . user interface: carry on . marketing: so but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . so now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . i 'm having this scale this scale , project manager: okay . marketing: so we have to do it on a board . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: the user requirem i think . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: okay . project manager: the board working again , is it ? industrial designer: do we have the uh the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: um . industrial designer: there it is . marketing: thank you . project manager: marketing: so . user interface: marketing: so these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . first of all uh comes user requirement . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . i i will first i would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: um i think yeah , it did . marketing: s user interface: it had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so . project manager: when the user requirement is essentially just to operate the tv , user interface: does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: yeah . so . marketing: so what do you think you will personally give . project manager: of course we have n't actually got a working model yet . user interface: i would say seven . marketing: seven . uh . user interface: seven is good , yeah , is n't it ? i ca n't true or false ? no sorry tr one is true . marketing: project manager: one , yeah . marketing: uh one is means highest ranking , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: no it 's it 's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: no that 's false . marketing: okay , right right . so it 's one for from your point of view . user interface: okay , so one . marketing: and what do you say our industrial expert ? user interface: yep . industrial designer: uh . it 's hard to know . i i give it a two . marketing: uh d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: i think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i interface expert . industrial designer: okay . marketing: but you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: um yeah , i think i it might even exceed it um . but i guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons . project manager: industrial designer: um i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: two . industrial designer: two . marketing: and what about uh you , brian ? project manager: oh , i 'll go for a one . marketing: you will go for one . project manager: basic requirements but of the pro of the project . marketing: okay . uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: yeah th marketing: and user interface: mm yellow . marketing: uh yeah , lower end . and the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but if a person does n't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: come on that was the tha marketing: no , do n't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: so we are showing our preference for particular fruits , user interface: okay . industrial designer: project manager: being fruitist . marketing: two or three kinds rather , and yeah . so . user interface: is that no is that not trends ? marketing: uh no , uh personally as a marketing expert i do n't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . industrial designer: marketing: so you can what shape a person will like . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . and by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also . user interface: uh-huh . but in electronics , i think , it 's not q always quite so um you do n't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: i think , you know , if you 're going to buy a tv maybe a company 'll have that you 're going to choose from , a company 'll have two or three choices , but they 're different designs . we were coming up with one product . marketing: uh maybe . okay but i will i will personally wo n't give it beyond three . project manager: user interface: no , i mean uh obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: i 'm just trying to okay . marketing: so we can project manager: he 's a tough cookie . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . three or four ? project manager: marketing: uh , no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: six . five or six . user interface: what are we doing ? industrial designer: what are we doing ? marketing: no sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: adding them up ? industrial designer: we 're gon na average them ? marketing: yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: okay . so seven fourths . marketing: and that 's i have taken it very wrongly . user interface: oh . marketing: yeah uh industrial designer: about one point f one point eight . marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev yeah one pe exactly . so we can say one or two . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: because it is one point eight uh two , so we will do two . industrial designer: project manager: oh i see . industrial designer: yeah round it up to two . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: so trends . marketing: so where were the trends . industrial designer: can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: how it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the uh as a fruit shape or something . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: uh . user interface: well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , i would give it um , well , because it 's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so i would actually give it a three . marketing: user interface: tha three or four , i 'm not sure . marketing: okay . yeah . user interface: three . go for three . that 's fine . marketing: uh industrial designer: 'kay . as far as the uh technology it its ' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it 's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it does n't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . so i give it a a four . i 'd give it a kinda middle of the road for user interface: mm . industrial designer: for technology . project manager: yeah , i am sort of pret uh just the fruit does me in , i mean uh it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but i 'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh also uh i would have liked to have seen the lcd screen in it . um so yeah i 'd say about four as well . marketing: okay . uh personally i wi uh i think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and in this way our product is good . and the second thing , now people do n't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . project manager: marketing: so that is also ef that also user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . and yes . it is cus spongy also . so they can play with it , it 's quite good . project manager: marketing: so then i think , maybe i can give it two . so four five ten thirteen thirteen . so we can is it fine ? so what about company strategy ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: um . industrial designer: well it was yellow . project manager: user interface: yeah , the company strategy , okay . um there was lot of discussing , that was good . um i feel i got my say . um so i 'd give the company strategy a two . industrial designer: well , i think it 's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: is that the question ? project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: is it ? okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: okay , so one or two . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: one . okay , just leave it , it 's fine . industrial designer: i 'll go with two . marketing: so what about you , brian ? project manager: um yeah , a three . pretty much kept to the company strategy , so i would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers ' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . so since our product meets all these requirements , so i would also prefer to give it rank one . so four six six industrial designer: so one and a half . marketing: half . user interface: yeah , one . marketing: so we can say two or one industrial designer: a two . marketing: okay . so th seven seven . uh overall we are getting two something , but we can round it as two . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . so i think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good . project manager: cool , groovy . user interface: okay . industrial designer: s marketing: so we can launch it . yeah . project manager: cool . brilliant . user interface: woo-hoo . project manager: in which case we are done . 'cause we 've evaluated and we are within budget . industrial designer: okay . user interface: cool . marketing: so project manager: champagne lunch anyone ? industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . great . industrial designer: uh .

in this meeting , the team was very satisfied with the three prototypes presented . however , they had to take the budget limits into consideration . their current cost per remote control was fourteen point six euros , while the budget required them to cut two more euros . therefore , a series of changes were done in order to meet the criteria , such as making the remotes flattened . in the end , the team was asked to make an evaluation about the project . all of them were very satisfied with the final product .

summarize the discussion about the cost control . </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay , almost there . project manager: okay . we 'll sta i 'll use the powerpoint , i guess . how was that , was that fun ? user interface: mm . very fun . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . uh oh i 've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but i will do . industrial designer: okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: upsidaisy . um um we marketing: e excuse me i forgot my project manager: yeah . marketing: copy . project manager: alright , okay , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: he 's gon na get his pen . user interface: oh right . okay . project manager: um will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: yeah , there 's good news ? project manager: uh industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . project manager: we have budget problems . industrial designer: oh . cutbacks . project manager: i 'm afraid you 're all sacked . oops . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't even have this on . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay , have you got a presentation to make ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , not mine yet . project manager: no . okay industrial designer: oh . project manager: so it 's just your your show . industrial designer: um maybe we should bring so that the camera can see . yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . sure . industrial designer: okay . project manager: user interface: we made three for you . project manager: three ? oh . user interface: um one 's based on the banana , one 's based on the tomato project manager: tomato ? what tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't recall a tomato . user interface: look . oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over . project manager: ah i see , okay . user interface: so . okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mainly speak recognition . the yellow there is the um project manager: logo . user interface: the slogan , yeah , project manager: okay , brilliant . user interface: that we need to incorporate , it 's very simple . if you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there 's some there , project manager: okay . user interface: um but mainly it 's speech recognition . project manager: okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah and yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: mm i 'm not sure about that . um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier . project manager: right . user interface: yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want . project manager: that 's groovy . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . uh can i have project manager: well i like the feel of it , i like the feel of it . user interface: yeah , sure . um that one is marketing: oh sorry s user interface: oh no , it 's delicate . project manager: at oh dear . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: that 's that 's already got its stand that one . that 's it stand . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: it does also lie flat , but that 's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: okay , brilliant mm . user interface: um the black on the back is the slogan . project manager: okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: uh yeah , that marketing: user interface: well , we did think of that . project manager: if it 's standing up , i guess , yeah . user interface: yeah , if it 's standing up it 's it 's on there , but also we 're gon na have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . project manager: oh right , okay , brilliant . like that from its centre . user interface: so um and that 's the um transmit the l_e_d_ thing . these are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . we n were were n't sure about putting them there , because um i it 's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: where you 're , yeah , uh were you 're holding it kind of user interface: yeah . well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you 've got small hands . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , obviously i do n't think that 's real sized . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it would have to be a bit bigger . project manager: yeah , scale model , yeah . user interface: okay . um that 's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and um then the buttons . yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . tried to keep it simple . oh that 's the charging base prongs at the bottom . project manager: alright , excellent . user interface: we used those . and um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's not in the traditional place , project manager: no . user interface: but um it 's quite an obvious place . project manager: it 's out of the way as well , i suppose , so . excellent . user interface: so there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too . industrial designer: oh yeah , yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: this one is uh , i suppose for the younger audiences . user interface: industrial designer: a a more friendly type of project manager: okay , so so barney the banana . industrial designer: right , right . it 's to uh induce more television watching i suppose or project manager: ah excellent , just what we need . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: say it for the camera . project manager: lo sort of loch ness banana . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: cool yeah . well , nice to have uh options at least . industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay and user interface: so are there any um improvements or issues or industrial designer: it wo n't stand . project manager: oh there are issues , oh there are issues . industrial designer: just let it lie down , it wont stand . user interface: project manager: um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: uh , let 's just enter in the um evaluation criteria . industrial designer: project manager: um unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it 's gon na cost us fourteen point six euros . marketing: mm . user interface: oh . project manager: so we have to industrial designer: what 's on the uh on the left ? project manager: rea sorry , i 've accidentally highlighted somehow um . there we go . industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh god , why is it doing that ? user interface: ooh . project manager: there we go . so basically , um in order to save our two euros um i was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um . user interface: more like a traditional remote control . project manager: yeah , i mean it 's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it would n't have to be curved sort of in and out . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and by doing so oh no , hold on . does n't save us quite as much . i do n't know what 's going on with this again . industrial designer: w why is the uh double curved two of them ? project manager: oh , good point . marketing: and double curve on both sides ? project manager: um . marketing: curve . yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: that 's sort of curve in and out . marketing: no ? industrial designer: is i marketing: this is double-curve . it this one is single curve . industrial designer: mm . marketing: 'cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . so double-curve . project manager: no , i think it means double curved as in um user interface: like an s_ shape . project manager: like uh a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . user interface: okay . project manager: okay , i might be wrong though . marketing: like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side . project manager: i do n't think that counts as a curve , i think that 's just a shape . marketing: hmm . hmm . industrial designer: project manager: a curvature is like the this case . user interface: okay . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: 'cause that 's the uh the biggest expense there , right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: yeah , and why why i 've got it two , i do n't know , i ca n't seem to select any more however . industrial designer: okay . well we can work around that um project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right . no . industrial designer: cut things out . but you think it should be one . project manager: it 's meant to be one , yeah , i do n't know why i put two in there , industrial designer: okay . project manager: but um hold on till i find it , i think this shift button might be stuck again . no maybe the shift button 's stuck in . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: should industrial designer: project manager: oh that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah , so we 're project manager: eleven uh eleven euros sixty . user interface: cool . cool . project manager: um user interface: so we could even add something . project manager: we cou oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately . industrial designer: we should fire the accountants . project manager: what ? industrial designer: fire the accountants . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: ah yeah , we could add things . project manager: industrial designer: maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you 're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: does that work ? project manager: yeah , i know , that just extends it as well . industrial designer: no mm . marketing: uh you can do one thing . project manager: i do n't know . marketing: you just select one box outsi yeah , this box . then move it with the help of this okay . project manager: it one of the buttons is sticking , i do n't know . marketing: just uh just uh okay , just a minute . okay . no input , like this . shift . no it 's not . project manager: no , it 's 'cause the uh the shift button 's stuck , or something . marketing: yeah , it 's not working . industrial designer: is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: should we ask meli project manager: marketing: should we ask our technical expert melissa ? project manager: no that 's fine . um we 've worked out what it would be anyway . industrial designer: did you try both shift buttons ? it could be the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: cancel . piss off . industrial designer: that 's too bad . project manager: oh well , never mind . um . right , so that 's finances and i dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? um user interface: well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: well i suppose that 's our that 's that 's our design that we 've got . so user interface: what do you th we 're trying to save money , so . yeah , if we 're happy with the design there 's no point in spending money , if we do n't have to . project manager: yeah . user interface: but if there is anything you think we 've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . maybe i mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: because it 's not in an ideal place right now . project manager: well that 's that 's uh okay , so project evaluation . we have under twelve euros fifty . project process , how do we think that went ? are we happy ? industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah i think we have a a winning product . project manager: okay . evaluation . oh we 've been writing this up for m months . user interface: i think it went quite smoothly . project manager: uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: w i think we were very creative . industrial designer: project manager: no , i mea i think it means sort of individually . user interface: oh right , okay . project manager: yes , no , maybe ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . groovy . so uh we 're just gon na . uh yeah , okay . teamwork ? leadership , sorry . industrial designer: great leadership . user interface: excellent leadership . marketing: project manager: thank you very much . you 're all get you 're all getting a raise . uh teamwork . i thought went well . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , everyone got enough input , i think . project manager: uh and well means , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , we project manager: the technical stuff was brilliant . marketing: project manager: let 's buy more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh right . um industrial designer: these pens are are neat though . project manager: i do n't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest . marketing: yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . we discussed all the new ideas , but of course we could n't reach any proper goals , we could n't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . these are new ideas we and new shapes , everything project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: . at le project manager: mm 'kay . groovy . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so just general thumbs up for all of us then . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . project manager: that kind of unfortunately is too quick . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: well um . industrial designer: project manager: uh . i suppose yeah . um . industrial designer: uh so let 's talk about our bonuses and the raises we 're getting for this , right . project manager: that 's it , um i think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . user interface: marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: uh let 's see if i can get this bloody thing to work . industrial designer: uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay . project manager: whoops . user interface: yeah , maybe . industrial designer: marketing: so project manager: does it go back in , does it ? reusable . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: something we should get . project manager: i do n't know what this is but it 's really really annoying . marketing: so uh brian , have you have you finished ? project manager: uh-huh . marketing: uh mine needs also this . project manager: um i have , yes . marketing: at last mine is also the presentation . project manager: huh ? oh right , okay , you 've got more , okay . marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: oh , you got a presentation , project manager: sorry uh . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: oh ok project manager: it did n't bother to tell me that on this marketing: s industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . is it ? okay . marketing: uh is the project evaluated , that is mine . project manager: does n't tell me . oh you 're doing that . marketing: yeah . project manager: we evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: uh . user interface: mm , love to eat that now . industrial designer: anybody user interface: kind of a green banana now . project manager: mm . industrial designer: clay covered banana . user interface: it 's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it 'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we 've got . project manager: o okay , hold on . user interface: i 've got . industrial designer: blue . user interface: project manager: i wonder w which cell do i want . industrial designer: it 's fun to touch . user interface: yeah . marketing: so . yeah . project manager: okay , i did n't realise you had that bit . marketing: so . user interface: oh could you pass the tomato please . project manager: user interface: sorry . thank you . marketing: so now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . how we are going to user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: means uh at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not . how mu what rating we will give to these products . so of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . so what methodology i will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this . project manager: okay . marketing: we will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . then marketing strategy of the company . as we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: sorry . sorry , marketing: yeah . user interface: carry on . marketing: so but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . so now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . i 'm having this scale this scale , project manager: okay . marketing: so we have to do it on a board . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: the user requirem i think . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: okay . project manager: the board working again , is it ? industrial designer: do we have the uh the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: um . industrial designer: there it is . marketing: thank you . project manager: marketing: so . user interface: marketing: so these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . first of all uh comes user requirement . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . i i will first i would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: um i think yeah , it did . marketing: s user interface: it had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so . project manager: when the user requirement is essentially just to operate the tv , user interface: does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: yeah . so . marketing: so what do you think you will personally give . project manager: of course we have n't actually got a working model yet . user interface: i would say seven . marketing: seven . uh . user interface: seven is good , yeah , is n't it ? i ca n't true or false ? no sorry tr one is true . marketing: project manager: one , yeah . marketing: uh one is means highest ranking , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: no it 's it 's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: no that 's false . marketing: okay , right right . so it 's one for from your point of view . user interface: okay , so one . marketing: and what do you say our industrial expert ? user interface: yep . industrial designer: uh . it 's hard to know . i i give it a two . marketing: uh d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: i think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i interface expert . industrial designer: okay . marketing: but you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: um yeah , i think i it might even exceed it um . but i guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons . project manager: industrial designer: um i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: two . industrial designer: two . marketing: and what about uh you , brian ? project manager: oh , i 'll go for a one . marketing: you will go for one . project manager: basic requirements but of the pro of the project . marketing: okay . uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: yeah th marketing: and user interface: mm yellow . marketing: uh yeah , lower end . and the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but if a person does n't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: come on that was the tha marketing: no , do n't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: so we are showing our preference for particular fruits , user interface: okay . industrial designer: project manager: being fruitist . marketing: two or three kinds rather , and yeah . so . user interface: is that no is that not trends ? marketing: uh no , uh personally as a marketing expert i do n't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . industrial designer: marketing: so you can what shape a person will like . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . and by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also . user interface: uh-huh . but in electronics , i think , it 's not q always quite so um you do n't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: i think , you know , if you 're going to buy a tv maybe a company 'll have that you 're going to choose from , a company 'll have two or three choices , but they 're different designs . we were coming up with one product . marketing: uh maybe . okay but i will i will personally wo n't give it beyond three . project manager: user interface: no , i mean uh obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: i 'm just trying to okay . marketing: so we can project manager: he 's a tough cookie . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . three or four ? project manager: marketing: uh , no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: six . five or six . user interface: what are we doing ? industrial designer: what are we doing ? marketing: no sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: adding them up ? industrial designer: we 're gon na average them ? marketing: yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: okay . so seven fourths . marketing: and that 's i have taken it very wrongly . user interface: oh . marketing: yeah uh industrial designer: about one point f one point eight . marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev yeah one pe exactly . so we can say one or two . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: because it is one point eight uh two , so we will do two . industrial designer: project manager: oh i see . industrial designer: yeah round it up to two . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: so trends . marketing: so where were the trends . industrial designer: can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: how it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the uh as a fruit shape or something . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: uh . user interface: well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , i would give it um , well , because it 's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so i would actually give it a three . marketing: user interface: tha three or four , i 'm not sure . marketing: okay . yeah . user interface: three . go for three . that 's fine . marketing: uh industrial designer: 'kay . as far as the uh technology it its ' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it 's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it does n't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . so i give it a a four . i 'd give it a kinda middle of the road for user interface: mm . industrial designer: for technology . project manager: yeah , i am sort of pret uh just the fruit does me in , i mean uh it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but i 'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh also uh i would have liked to have seen the lcd screen in it . um so yeah i 'd say about four as well . marketing: okay . uh personally i wi uh i think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and in this way our product is good . and the second thing , now people do n't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . project manager: marketing: so that is also ef that also user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . and yes . it is cus spongy also . so they can play with it , it 's quite good . project manager: marketing: so then i think , maybe i can give it two . so four five ten thirteen thirteen . so we can is it fine ? so what about company strategy ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: um . industrial designer: well it was yellow . project manager: user interface: yeah , the company strategy , okay . um there was lot of discussing , that was good . um i feel i got my say . um so i 'd give the company strategy a two . industrial designer: well , i think it 's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: is that the question ? project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: is it ? okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: okay , so one or two . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: one . okay , just leave it , it 's fine . industrial designer: i 'll go with two . marketing: so what about you , brian ? project manager: um yeah , a three . pretty much kept to the company strategy , so i would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers ' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . so since our product meets all these requirements , so i would also prefer to give it rank one . so four six six industrial designer: so one and a half . marketing: half . user interface: yeah , one . marketing: so we can say two or one industrial designer: a two . marketing: okay . so th seven seven . uh overall we are getting two something , but we can round it as two . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . so i think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good . project manager: cool , groovy . user interface: okay . industrial designer: s marketing: so we can launch it . yeah . project manager: cool . brilliant . user interface: woo-hoo . project manager: in which case we are done . 'cause we 've evaluated and we are within budget . industrial designer: okay . user interface: cool . marketing: so project manager: champagne lunch anyone ? industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . great . industrial designer: uh .

according to project manager , currently , the new remote controls would cost fourteen point six euros each . unfortunately , that was two euros over the budget . then the team had a little discussion on how to reduce the cost . eventually , the cost was reduced to eleven euros sixty by adjusting two parts of the design . that left them plenty of room to add some other designs to the existing models . the final cost of the new remote controls was set at twelve euros fifty each .

what did the team eventually come up with to reduce costs ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay , almost there . project manager: okay . we 'll sta i 'll use the powerpoint , i guess . how was that , was that fun ? user interface: mm . very fun . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . uh oh i 've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but i will do . industrial designer: okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: upsidaisy . um um we marketing: e excuse me i forgot my project manager: yeah . marketing: copy . project manager: alright , okay , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: he 's gon na get his pen . user interface: oh right . okay . project manager: um will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: yeah , there 's good news ? project manager: uh industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . project manager: we have budget problems . industrial designer: oh . cutbacks . project manager: i 'm afraid you 're all sacked . oops . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't even have this on . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay , have you got a presentation to make ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , not mine yet . project manager: no . okay industrial designer: oh . project manager: so it 's just your your show . industrial designer: um maybe we should bring so that the camera can see . yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . sure . industrial designer: okay . project manager: user interface: we made three for you . project manager: three ? oh . user interface: um one 's based on the banana , one 's based on the tomato project manager: tomato ? what tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't recall a tomato . user interface: look . oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over . project manager: ah i see , okay . user interface: so . okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mainly speak recognition . the yellow there is the um project manager: logo . user interface: the slogan , yeah , project manager: okay , brilliant . user interface: that we need to incorporate , it 's very simple . if you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there 's some there , project manager: okay . user interface: um but mainly it 's speech recognition . project manager: okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah and yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: mm i 'm not sure about that . um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier . project manager: right . user interface: yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want . project manager: that 's groovy . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . uh can i have project manager: well i like the feel of it , i like the feel of it . user interface: yeah , sure . um that one is marketing: oh sorry s user interface: oh no , it 's delicate . project manager: at oh dear . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: that 's that 's already got its stand that one . that 's it stand . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: it does also lie flat , but that 's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: okay , brilliant mm . user interface: um the black on the back is the slogan . project manager: okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: uh yeah , that marketing: user interface: well , we did think of that . project manager: if it 's standing up , i guess , yeah . user interface: yeah , if it 's standing up it 's it 's on there , but also we 're gon na have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . project manager: oh right , okay , brilliant . like that from its centre . user interface: so um and that 's the um transmit the l_e_d_ thing . these are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . we n were were n't sure about putting them there , because um i it 's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: where you 're , yeah , uh were you 're holding it kind of user interface: yeah . well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you 've got small hands . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , obviously i do n't think that 's real sized . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it would have to be a bit bigger . project manager: yeah , scale model , yeah . user interface: okay . um that 's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and um then the buttons . yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . tried to keep it simple . oh that 's the charging base prongs at the bottom . project manager: alright , excellent . user interface: we used those . and um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's not in the traditional place , project manager: no . user interface: but um it 's quite an obvious place . project manager: it 's out of the way as well , i suppose , so . excellent . user interface: so there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too . industrial designer: oh yeah , yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: this one is uh , i suppose for the younger audiences . user interface: industrial designer: a a more friendly type of project manager: okay , so so barney the banana . industrial designer: right , right . it 's to uh induce more television watching i suppose or project manager: ah excellent , just what we need . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: say it for the camera . project manager: lo sort of loch ness banana . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: cool yeah . well , nice to have uh options at least . industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay and user interface: so are there any um improvements or issues or industrial designer: it wo n't stand . project manager: oh there are issues , oh there are issues . industrial designer: just let it lie down , it wont stand . user interface: project manager: um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: uh , let 's just enter in the um evaluation criteria . industrial designer: project manager: um unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it 's gon na cost us fourteen point six euros . marketing: mm . user interface: oh . project manager: so we have to industrial designer: what 's on the uh on the left ? project manager: rea sorry , i 've accidentally highlighted somehow um . there we go . industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh god , why is it doing that ? user interface: ooh . project manager: there we go . so basically , um in order to save our two euros um i was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um . user interface: more like a traditional remote control . project manager: yeah , i mean it 's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it would n't have to be curved sort of in and out . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and by doing so oh no , hold on . does n't save us quite as much . i do n't know what 's going on with this again . industrial designer: w why is the uh double curved two of them ? project manager: oh , good point . marketing: and double curve on both sides ? project manager: um . marketing: curve . yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: that 's sort of curve in and out . marketing: no ? industrial designer: is i marketing: this is double-curve . it this one is single curve . industrial designer: mm . marketing: 'cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . so double-curve . project manager: no , i think it means double curved as in um user interface: like an s_ shape . project manager: like uh a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . user interface: okay . project manager: okay , i might be wrong though . marketing: like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side . project manager: i do n't think that counts as a curve , i think that 's just a shape . marketing: hmm . hmm . industrial designer: project manager: a curvature is like the this case . user interface: okay . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: 'cause that 's the uh the biggest expense there , right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: yeah , and why why i 've got it two , i do n't know , i ca n't seem to select any more however . industrial designer: okay . well we can work around that um project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right . no . industrial designer: cut things out . but you think it should be one . project manager: it 's meant to be one , yeah , i do n't know why i put two in there , industrial designer: okay . project manager: but um hold on till i find it , i think this shift button might be stuck again . no maybe the shift button 's stuck in . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: should industrial designer: project manager: oh that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah , so we 're project manager: eleven uh eleven euros sixty . user interface: cool . cool . project manager: um user interface: so we could even add something . project manager: we cou oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately . industrial designer: we should fire the accountants . project manager: what ? industrial designer: fire the accountants . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: ah yeah , we could add things . project manager: industrial designer: maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you 're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: does that work ? project manager: yeah , i know , that just extends it as well . industrial designer: no mm . marketing: uh you can do one thing . project manager: i do n't know . marketing: you just select one box outsi yeah , this box . then move it with the help of this okay . project manager: it one of the buttons is sticking , i do n't know . marketing: just uh just uh okay , just a minute . okay . no input , like this . shift . no it 's not . project manager: no , it 's 'cause the uh the shift button 's stuck , or something . marketing: yeah , it 's not working . industrial designer: is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: should we ask meli project manager: marketing: should we ask our technical expert melissa ? project manager: no that 's fine . um we 've worked out what it would be anyway . industrial designer: did you try both shift buttons ? it could be the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: cancel . piss off . industrial designer: that 's too bad . project manager: oh well , never mind . um . right , so that 's finances and i dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? um user interface: well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: well i suppose that 's our that 's that 's our design that we 've got . so user interface: what do you th we 're trying to save money , so . yeah , if we 're happy with the design there 's no point in spending money , if we do n't have to . project manager: yeah . user interface: but if there is anything you think we 've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . maybe i mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: because it 's not in an ideal place right now . project manager: well that 's that 's uh okay , so project evaluation . we have under twelve euros fifty . project process , how do we think that went ? are we happy ? industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah i think we have a a winning product . project manager: okay . evaluation . oh we 've been writing this up for m months . user interface: i think it went quite smoothly . project manager: uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: w i think we were very creative . industrial designer: project manager: no , i mea i think it means sort of individually . user interface: oh right , okay . project manager: yes , no , maybe ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . groovy . so uh we 're just gon na . uh yeah , okay . teamwork ? leadership , sorry . industrial designer: great leadership . user interface: excellent leadership . marketing: project manager: thank you very much . you 're all get you 're all getting a raise . uh teamwork . i thought went well . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , everyone got enough input , i think . project manager: uh and well means , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , we project manager: the technical stuff was brilliant . marketing: project manager: let 's buy more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh right . um industrial designer: these pens are are neat though . project manager: i do n't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest . marketing: yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . we discussed all the new ideas , but of course we could n't reach any proper goals , we could n't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . these are new ideas we and new shapes , everything project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: . at le project manager: mm 'kay . groovy . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so just general thumbs up for all of us then . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . project manager: that kind of unfortunately is too quick . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: well um . industrial designer: project manager: uh . i suppose yeah . um . industrial designer: uh so let 's talk about our bonuses and the raises we 're getting for this , right . project manager: that 's it , um i think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . user interface: marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: uh let 's see if i can get this bloody thing to work . industrial designer: uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay . project manager: whoops . user interface: yeah , maybe . industrial designer: marketing: so project manager: does it go back in , does it ? reusable . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: something we should get . project manager: i do n't know what this is but it 's really really annoying . marketing: so uh brian , have you have you finished ? project manager: uh-huh . marketing: uh mine needs also this . project manager: um i have , yes . marketing: at last mine is also the presentation . project manager: huh ? oh right , okay , you 've got more , okay . marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: oh , you got a presentation , project manager: sorry uh . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: oh ok project manager: it did n't bother to tell me that on this marketing: s industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . is it ? okay . marketing: uh is the project evaluated , that is mine . project manager: does n't tell me . oh you 're doing that . marketing: yeah . project manager: we evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: uh . user interface: mm , love to eat that now . industrial designer: anybody user interface: kind of a green banana now . project manager: mm . industrial designer: clay covered banana . user interface: it 's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it 'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we 've got . project manager: o okay , hold on . user interface: i 've got . industrial designer: blue . user interface: project manager: i wonder w which cell do i want . industrial designer: it 's fun to touch . user interface: yeah . marketing: so . yeah . project manager: okay , i did n't realise you had that bit . marketing: so . user interface: oh could you pass the tomato please . project manager: user interface: sorry . thank you . marketing: so now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . how we are going to user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: means uh at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not . how mu what rating we will give to these products . so of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . so what methodology i will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this . project manager: okay . marketing: we will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . then marketing strategy of the company . as we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: sorry . sorry , marketing: yeah . user interface: carry on . marketing: so but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . so now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . i 'm having this scale this scale , project manager: okay . marketing: so we have to do it on a board . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: the user requirem i think . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: okay . project manager: the board working again , is it ? industrial designer: do we have the uh the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: um . industrial designer: there it is . marketing: thank you . project manager: marketing: so . user interface: marketing: so these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . first of all uh comes user requirement . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . i i will first i would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: um i think yeah , it did . marketing: s user interface: it had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so . project manager: when the user requirement is essentially just to operate the tv , user interface: does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: yeah . so . marketing: so what do you think you will personally give . project manager: of course we have n't actually got a working model yet . user interface: i would say seven . marketing: seven . uh . user interface: seven is good , yeah , is n't it ? i ca n't true or false ? no sorry tr one is true . marketing: project manager: one , yeah . marketing: uh one is means highest ranking , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: no it 's it 's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: no that 's false . marketing: okay , right right . so it 's one for from your point of view . user interface: okay , so one . marketing: and what do you say our industrial expert ? user interface: yep . industrial designer: uh . it 's hard to know . i i give it a two . marketing: uh d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: i think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i interface expert . industrial designer: okay . marketing: but you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: um yeah , i think i it might even exceed it um . but i guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons . project manager: industrial designer: um i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: two . industrial designer: two . marketing: and what about uh you , brian ? project manager: oh , i 'll go for a one . marketing: you will go for one . project manager: basic requirements but of the pro of the project . marketing: okay . uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: yeah th marketing: and user interface: mm yellow . marketing: uh yeah , lower end . and the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but if a person does n't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: come on that was the tha marketing: no , do n't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: so we are showing our preference for particular fruits , user interface: okay . industrial designer: project manager: being fruitist . marketing: two or three kinds rather , and yeah . so . user interface: is that no is that not trends ? marketing: uh no , uh personally as a marketing expert i do n't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . industrial designer: marketing: so you can what shape a person will like . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . and by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also . user interface: uh-huh . but in electronics , i think , it 's not q always quite so um you do n't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: i think , you know , if you 're going to buy a tv maybe a company 'll have that you 're going to choose from , a company 'll have two or three choices , but they 're different designs . we were coming up with one product . marketing: uh maybe . okay but i will i will personally wo n't give it beyond three . project manager: user interface: no , i mean uh obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: i 'm just trying to okay . marketing: so we can project manager: he 's a tough cookie . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . three or four ? project manager: marketing: uh , no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: six . five or six . user interface: what are we doing ? industrial designer: what are we doing ? marketing: no sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: adding them up ? industrial designer: we 're gon na average them ? marketing: yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: okay . so seven fourths . marketing: and that 's i have taken it very wrongly . user interface: oh . marketing: yeah uh industrial designer: about one point f one point eight . marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev yeah one pe exactly . so we can say one or two . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: because it is one point eight uh two , so we will do two . industrial designer: project manager: oh i see . industrial designer: yeah round it up to two . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: so trends . marketing: so where were the trends . industrial designer: can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: how it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the uh as a fruit shape or something . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: uh . user interface: well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , i would give it um , well , because it 's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so i would actually give it a three . marketing: user interface: tha three or four , i 'm not sure . marketing: okay . yeah . user interface: three . go for three . that 's fine . marketing: uh industrial designer: 'kay . as far as the uh technology it its ' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it 's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it does n't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . so i give it a a four . i 'd give it a kinda middle of the road for user interface: mm . industrial designer: for technology . project manager: yeah , i am sort of pret uh just the fruit does me in , i mean uh it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but i 'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh also uh i would have liked to have seen the lcd screen in it . um so yeah i 'd say about four as well . marketing: okay . uh personally i wi uh i think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and in this way our product is good . and the second thing , now people do n't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . project manager: marketing: so that is also ef that also user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . and yes . it is cus spongy also . so they can play with it , it 's quite good . project manager: marketing: so then i think , maybe i can give it two . so four five ten thirteen thirteen . so we can is it fine ? so what about company strategy ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: um . industrial designer: well it was yellow . project manager: user interface: yeah , the company strategy , okay . um there was lot of discussing , that was good . um i feel i got my say . um so i 'd give the company strategy a two . industrial designer: well , i think it 's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: is that the question ? project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: is it ? okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: okay , so one or two . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: one . okay , just leave it , it 's fine . industrial designer: i 'll go with two . marketing: so what about you , brian ? project manager: um yeah , a three . pretty much kept to the company strategy , so i would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers ' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . so since our product meets all these requirements , so i would also prefer to give it rank one . so four six six industrial designer: so one and a half . marketing: half . user interface: yeah , one . marketing: so we can say two or one industrial designer: a two . marketing: okay . so th seven seven . uh overall we are getting two something , but we can round it as two . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . so i think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good . project manager: cool , groovy . user interface: okay . industrial designer: s marketing: so we can launch it . yeah . project manager: cool . brilliant . user interface: woo-hoo . project manager: in which case we are done . 'cause we 've evaluated and we are within budget . industrial designer: okay . user interface: cool . marketing: so project manager: champagne lunch anyone ? industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . great . industrial designer: uh .

in general , the team came up with two ways to reduce the costs . first , they would essentially remain the same shape as the prototypes , but just have it flattened . in user interface 's words , it would be more like a traditional remote control . second , the team reached a consensus that the design of double curves shall be changed into a single curve since it was the biggest expense there . luckily , after the discussion , the overall cost of the new remote controls went down to eleven euros sixty .

what kind of design did the team finally decide to add with the extra budget ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay , almost there . project manager: okay . we 'll sta i 'll use the powerpoint , i guess . how was that , was that fun ? user interface: mm . very fun . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . uh oh i 've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but i will do . industrial designer: okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: upsidaisy . um um we marketing: e excuse me i forgot my project manager: yeah . marketing: copy . project manager: alright , okay , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: he 's gon na get his pen . user interface: oh right . okay . project manager: um will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: yeah , there 's good news ? project manager: uh industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . project manager: we have budget problems . industrial designer: oh . cutbacks . project manager: i 'm afraid you 're all sacked . oops . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't even have this on . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay , have you got a presentation to make ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , not mine yet . project manager: no . okay industrial designer: oh . project manager: so it 's just your your show . industrial designer: um maybe we should bring so that the camera can see . yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . sure . industrial designer: okay . project manager: user interface: we made three for you . project manager: three ? oh . user interface: um one 's based on the banana , one 's based on the tomato project manager: tomato ? what tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't recall a tomato . user interface: look . oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over . project manager: ah i see , okay . user interface: so . okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mainly speak recognition . the yellow there is the um project manager: logo . user interface: the slogan , yeah , project manager: okay , brilliant . user interface: that we need to incorporate , it 's very simple . if you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there 's some there , project manager: okay . user interface: um but mainly it 's speech recognition . project manager: okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah and yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: mm i 'm not sure about that . um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier . project manager: right . user interface: yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want . project manager: that 's groovy . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . uh can i have project manager: well i like the feel of it , i like the feel of it . user interface: yeah , sure . um that one is marketing: oh sorry s user interface: oh no , it 's delicate . project manager: at oh dear . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: that 's that 's already got its stand that one . that 's it stand . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: it does also lie flat , but that 's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: okay , brilliant mm . user interface: um the black on the back is the slogan . project manager: okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: uh yeah , that marketing: user interface: well , we did think of that . project manager: if it 's standing up , i guess , yeah . user interface: yeah , if it 's standing up it 's it 's on there , but also we 're gon na have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . project manager: oh right , okay , brilliant . like that from its centre . user interface: so um and that 's the um transmit the l_e_d_ thing . these are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . we n were were n't sure about putting them there , because um i it 's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: where you 're , yeah , uh were you 're holding it kind of user interface: yeah . well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you 've got small hands . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , obviously i do n't think that 's real sized . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it would have to be a bit bigger . project manager: yeah , scale model , yeah . user interface: okay . um that 's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and um then the buttons . yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . tried to keep it simple . oh that 's the charging base prongs at the bottom . project manager: alright , excellent . user interface: we used those . and um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's not in the traditional place , project manager: no . user interface: but um it 's quite an obvious place . project manager: it 's out of the way as well , i suppose , so . excellent . user interface: so there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too . industrial designer: oh yeah , yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: this one is uh , i suppose for the younger audiences . user interface: industrial designer: a a more friendly type of project manager: okay , so so barney the banana . industrial designer: right , right . it 's to uh induce more television watching i suppose or project manager: ah excellent , just what we need . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: say it for the camera . project manager: lo sort of loch ness banana . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: cool yeah . well , nice to have uh options at least . industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay and user interface: so are there any um improvements or issues or industrial designer: it wo n't stand . project manager: oh there are issues , oh there are issues . industrial designer: just let it lie down , it wont stand . user interface: project manager: um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: uh , let 's just enter in the um evaluation criteria . industrial designer: project manager: um unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it 's gon na cost us fourteen point six euros . marketing: mm . user interface: oh . project manager: so we have to industrial designer: what 's on the uh on the left ? project manager: rea sorry , i 've accidentally highlighted somehow um . there we go . industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh god , why is it doing that ? user interface: ooh . project manager: there we go . so basically , um in order to save our two euros um i was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um . user interface: more like a traditional remote control . project manager: yeah , i mean it 's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it would n't have to be curved sort of in and out . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and by doing so oh no , hold on . does n't save us quite as much . i do n't know what 's going on with this again . industrial designer: w why is the uh double curved two of them ? project manager: oh , good point . marketing: and double curve on both sides ? project manager: um . marketing: curve . yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: that 's sort of curve in and out . marketing: no ? industrial designer: is i marketing: this is double-curve . it this one is single curve . industrial designer: mm . marketing: 'cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . so double-curve . project manager: no , i think it means double curved as in um user interface: like an s_ shape . project manager: like uh a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . user interface: okay . project manager: okay , i might be wrong though . marketing: like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side . project manager: i do n't think that counts as a curve , i think that 's just a shape . marketing: hmm . hmm . industrial designer: project manager: a curvature is like the this case . user interface: okay . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: 'cause that 's the uh the biggest expense there , right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: yeah , and why why i 've got it two , i do n't know , i ca n't seem to select any more however . industrial designer: okay . well we can work around that um project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right . no . industrial designer: cut things out . but you think it should be one . project manager: it 's meant to be one , yeah , i do n't know why i put two in there , industrial designer: okay . project manager: but um hold on till i find it , i think this shift button might be stuck again . no maybe the shift button 's stuck in . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: should industrial designer: project manager: oh that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah , so we 're project manager: eleven uh eleven euros sixty . user interface: cool . cool . project manager: um user interface: so we could even add something . project manager: we cou oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately . industrial designer: we should fire the accountants . project manager: what ? industrial designer: fire the accountants . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: ah yeah , we could add things . project manager: industrial designer: maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you 're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: does that work ? project manager: yeah , i know , that just extends it as well . industrial designer: no mm . marketing: uh you can do one thing . project manager: i do n't know . marketing: you just select one box outsi yeah , this box . then move it with the help of this okay . project manager: it one of the buttons is sticking , i do n't know . marketing: just uh just uh okay , just a minute . okay . no input , like this . shift . no it 's not . project manager: no , it 's 'cause the uh the shift button 's stuck , or something . marketing: yeah , it 's not working . industrial designer: is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: should we ask meli project manager: marketing: should we ask our technical expert melissa ? project manager: no that 's fine . um we 've worked out what it would be anyway . industrial designer: did you try both shift buttons ? it could be the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: cancel . piss off . industrial designer: that 's too bad . project manager: oh well , never mind . um . right , so that 's finances and i dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? um user interface: well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: well i suppose that 's our that 's that 's our design that we 've got . so user interface: what do you th we 're trying to save money , so . yeah , if we 're happy with the design there 's no point in spending money , if we do n't have to . project manager: yeah . user interface: but if there is anything you think we 've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . maybe i mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: because it 's not in an ideal place right now . project manager: well that 's that 's uh okay , so project evaluation . we have under twelve euros fifty . project process , how do we think that went ? are we happy ? industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah i think we have a a winning product . project manager: okay . evaluation . oh we 've been writing this up for m months . user interface: i think it went quite smoothly . project manager: uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: w i think we were very creative . industrial designer: project manager: no , i mea i think it means sort of individually . user interface: oh right , okay . project manager: yes , no , maybe ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . groovy . so uh we 're just gon na . uh yeah , okay . teamwork ? leadership , sorry . industrial designer: great leadership . user interface: excellent leadership . marketing: project manager: thank you very much . you 're all get you 're all getting a raise . uh teamwork . i thought went well . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , everyone got enough input , i think . project manager: uh and well means , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , we project manager: the technical stuff was brilliant . marketing: project manager: let 's buy more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh right . um industrial designer: these pens are are neat though . project manager: i do n't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest . marketing: yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . we discussed all the new ideas , but of course we could n't reach any proper goals , we could n't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . these are new ideas we and new shapes , everything project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: . at le project manager: mm 'kay . groovy . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so just general thumbs up for all of us then . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . project manager: that kind of unfortunately is too quick . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: well um . industrial designer: project manager: uh . i suppose yeah . um . industrial designer: uh so let 's talk about our bonuses and the raises we 're getting for this , right . project manager: that 's it , um i think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . user interface: marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: uh let 's see if i can get this bloody thing to work . industrial designer: uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay . project manager: whoops . user interface: yeah , maybe . industrial designer: marketing: so project manager: does it go back in , does it ? reusable . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: something we should get . project manager: i do n't know what this is but it 's really really annoying . marketing: so uh brian , have you have you finished ? project manager: uh-huh . marketing: uh mine needs also this . project manager: um i have , yes . marketing: at last mine is also the presentation . project manager: huh ? oh right , okay , you 've got more , okay . marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: oh , you got a presentation , project manager: sorry uh . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: oh ok project manager: it did n't bother to tell me that on this marketing: s industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . is it ? okay . marketing: uh is the project evaluated , that is mine . project manager: does n't tell me . oh you 're doing that . marketing: yeah . project manager: we evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: uh . user interface: mm , love to eat that now . industrial designer: anybody user interface: kind of a green banana now . project manager: mm . industrial designer: clay covered banana . user interface: it 's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it 'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we 've got . project manager: o okay , hold on . user interface: i 've got . industrial designer: blue . user interface: project manager: i wonder w which cell do i want . industrial designer: it 's fun to touch . user interface: yeah . marketing: so . yeah . project manager: okay , i did n't realise you had that bit . marketing: so . user interface: oh could you pass the tomato please . project manager: user interface: sorry . thank you . marketing: so now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . how we are going to user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: means uh at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not . how mu what rating we will give to these products . so of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . so what methodology i will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this . project manager: okay . marketing: we will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . then marketing strategy of the company . as we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: sorry . sorry , marketing: yeah . user interface: carry on . marketing: so but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . so now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . i 'm having this scale this scale , project manager: okay . marketing: so we have to do it on a board . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: the user requirem i think . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: okay . project manager: the board working again , is it ? industrial designer: do we have the uh the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: um . industrial designer: there it is . marketing: thank you . project manager: marketing: so . user interface: marketing: so these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . first of all uh comes user requirement . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . i i will first i would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: um i think yeah , it did . marketing: s user interface: it had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so . project manager: when the user requirement is essentially just to operate the tv , user interface: does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: yeah . so . marketing: so what do you think you will personally give . project manager: of course we have n't actually got a working model yet . user interface: i would say seven . marketing: seven . uh . user interface: seven is good , yeah , is n't it ? i ca n't true or false ? no sorry tr one is true . marketing: project manager: one , yeah . marketing: uh one is means highest ranking , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: no it 's it 's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: no that 's false . marketing: okay , right right . so it 's one for from your point of view . user interface: okay , so one . marketing: and what do you say our industrial expert ? user interface: yep . industrial designer: uh . it 's hard to know . i i give it a two . marketing: uh d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: i think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i interface expert . industrial designer: okay . marketing: but you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: um yeah , i think i it might even exceed it um . but i guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons . project manager: industrial designer: um i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: two . industrial designer: two . marketing: and what about uh you , brian ? project manager: oh , i 'll go for a one . marketing: you will go for one . project manager: basic requirements but of the pro of the project . marketing: okay . uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: yeah th marketing: and user interface: mm yellow . marketing: uh yeah , lower end . and the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but if a person does n't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: come on that was the tha marketing: no , do n't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: so we are showing our preference for particular fruits , user interface: okay . industrial designer: project manager: being fruitist . marketing: two or three kinds rather , and yeah . so . user interface: is that no is that not trends ? marketing: uh no , uh personally as a marketing expert i do n't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . industrial designer: marketing: so you can what shape a person will like . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . and by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also . user interface: uh-huh . but in electronics , i think , it 's not q always quite so um you do n't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: i think , you know , if you 're going to buy a tv maybe a company 'll have that you 're going to choose from , a company 'll have two or three choices , but they 're different designs . we were coming up with one product . marketing: uh maybe . okay but i will i will personally wo n't give it beyond three . project manager: user interface: no , i mean uh obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: i 'm just trying to okay . marketing: so we can project manager: he 's a tough cookie . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . three or four ? project manager: marketing: uh , no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: six . five or six . user interface: what are we doing ? industrial designer: what are we doing ? marketing: no sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: adding them up ? industrial designer: we 're gon na average them ? marketing: yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: okay . so seven fourths . marketing: and that 's i have taken it very wrongly . user interface: oh . marketing: yeah uh industrial designer: about one point f one point eight . marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev yeah one pe exactly . so we can say one or two . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: because it is one point eight uh two , so we will do two . industrial designer: project manager: oh i see . industrial designer: yeah round it up to two . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: so trends . marketing: so where were the trends . industrial designer: can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: how it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the uh as a fruit shape or something . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: uh . user interface: well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , i would give it um , well , because it 's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so i would actually give it a three . marketing: user interface: tha three or four , i 'm not sure . marketing: okay . yeah . user interface: three . go for three . that 's fine . marketing: uh industrial designer: 'kay . as far as the uh technology it its ' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it 's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it does n't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . so i give it a a four . i 'd give it a kinda middle of the road for user interface: mm . industrial designer: for technology . project manager: yeah , i am sort of pret uh just the fruit does me in , i mean uh it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but i 'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh also uh i would have liked to have seen the lcd screen in it . um so yeah i 'd say about four as well . marketing: okay . uh personally i wi uh i think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and in this way our product is good . and the second thing , now people do n't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . project manager: marketing: so that is also ef that also user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . and yes . it is cus spongy also . so they can play with it , it 's quite good . project manager: marketing: so then i think , maybe i can give it two . so four five ten thirteen thirteen . so we can is it fine ? so what about company strategy ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: um . industrial designer: well it was yellow . project manager: user interface: yeah , the company strategy , okay . um there was lot of discussing , that was good . um i feel i got my say . um so i 'd give the company strategy a two . industrial designer: well , i think it 's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: is that the question ? project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: is it ? okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: okay , so one or two . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: one . okay , just leave it , it 's fine . industrial designer: i 'll go with two . marketing: so what about you , brian ? project manager: um yeah , a three . pretty much kept to the company strategy , so i would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers ' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . so since our product meets all these requirements , so i would also prefer to give it rank one . so four six six industrial designer: so one and a half . marketing: half . user interface: yeah , one . marketing: so we can say two or one industrial designer: a two . marketing: okay . so th seven seven . uh overall we are getting two something , but we can round it as two . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . so i think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good . project manager: cool , groovy . user interface: okay . industrial designer: s marketing: so we can launch it . yeah . project manager: cool . brilliant . user interface: woo-hoo . project manager: in which case we are done . 'cause we 've evaluated and we are within budget . industrial designer: okay . user interface: cool . marketing: so project manager: champagne lunch anyone ? industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . great . industrial designer: uh .

through a series of previous adjustments , the cost of the new remote controls had been effectively reduced . the team then decided to use some of the remaining cost budget to add another design to the new remotes . after discussion , the team thought it might be a good idea to have the slogan on the front because there was obviously more space there and the current slogan was not in an ideal place . with this little change , the overall cost of the new remote each went up to twelve euros fifty , still under the budget limit .

summarize the discussion about the evaluation about the new remote controls . </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay , almost there . project manager: okay . we 'll sta i 'll use the powerpoint , i guess . how was that , was that fun ? user interface: mm . very fun . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . uh oh i 've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but i will do . industrial designer: okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: upsidaisy . um um we marketing: e excuse me i forgot my project manager: yeah . marketing: copy . project manager: alright , okay , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: he 's gon na get his pen . user interface: oh right . okay . project manager: um will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: yeah , there 's good news ? project manager: uh industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . project manager: we have budget problems . industrial designer: oh . cutbacks . project manager: i 'm afraid you 're all sacked . oops . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't even have this on . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay , have you got a presentation to make ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , not mine yet . project manager: no . okay industrial designer: oh . project manager: so it 's just your your show . industrial designer: um maybe we should bring so that the camera can see . yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . sure . industrial designer: okay . project manager: user interface: we made three for you . project manager: three ? oh . user interface: um one 's based on the banana , one 's based on the tomato project manager: tomato ? what tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't recall a tomato . user interface: look . oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over . project manager: ah i see , okay . user interface: so . okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mainly speak recognition . the yellow there is the um project manager: logo . user interface: the slogan , yeah , project manager: okay , brilliant . user interface: that we need to incorporate , it 's very simple . if you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there 's some there , project manager: okay . user interface: um but mainly it 's speech recognition . project manager: okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah and yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: mm i 'm not sure about that . um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier . project manager: right . user interface: yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want . project manager: that 's groovy . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . uh can i have project manager: well i like the feel of it , i like the feel of it . user interface: yeah , sure . um that one is marketing: oh sorry s user interface: oh no , it 's delicate . project manager: at oh dear . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: that 's that 's already got its stand that one . that 's it stand . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: it does also lie flat , but that 's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: okay , brilliant mm . user interface: um the black on the back is the slogan . project manager: okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: uh yeah , that marketing: user interface: well , we did think of that . project manager: if it 's standing up , i guess , yeah . user interface: yeah , if it 's standing up it 's it 's on there , but also we 're gon na have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . project manager: oh right , okay , brilliant . like that from its centre . user interface: so um and that 's the um transmit the l_e_d_ thing . these are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . we n were were n't sure about putting them there , because um i it 's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: where you 're , yeah , uh were you 're holding it kind of user interface: yeah . well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you 've got small hands . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , obviously i do n't think that 's real sized . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it would have to be a bit bigger . project manager: yeah , scale model , yeah . user interface: okay . um that 's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and um then the buttons . yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . tried to keep it simple . oh that 's the charging base prongs at the bottom . project manager: alright , excellent . user interface: we used those . and um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's not in the traditional place , project manager: no . user interface: but um it 's quite an obvious place . project manager: it 's out of the way as well , i suppose , so . excellent . user interface: so there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too . industrial designer: oh yeah , yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: this one is uh , i suppose for the younger audiences . user interface: industrial designer: a a more friendly type of project manager: okay , so so barney the banana . industrial designer: right , right . it 's to uh induce more television watching i suppose or project manager: ah excellent , just what we need . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: say it for the camera . project manager: lo sort of loch ness banana . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: cool yeah . well , nice to have uh options at least . industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay and user interface: so are there any um improvements or issues or industrial designer: it wo n't stand . project manager: oh there are issues , oh there are issues . industrial designer: just let it lie down , it wont stand . user interface: project manager: um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: uh , let 's just enter in the um evaluation criteria . industrial designer: project manager: um unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it 's gon na cost us fourteen point six euros . marketing: mm . user interface: oh . project manager: so we have to industrial designer: what 's on the uh on the left ? project manager: rea sorry , i 've accidentally highlighted somehow um . there we go . industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh god , why is it doing that ? user interface: ooh . project manager: there we go . so basically , um in order to save our two euros um i was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um . user interface: more like a traditional remote control . project manager: yeah , i mean it 's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it would n't have to be curved sort of in and out . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and by doing so oh no , hold on . does n't save us quite as much . i do n't know what 's going on with this again . industrial designer: w why is the uh double curved two of them ? project manager: oh , good point . marketing: and double curve on both sides ? project manager: um . marketing: curve . yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: that 's sort of curve in and out . marketing: no ? industrial designer: is i marketing: this is double-curve . it this one is single curve . industrial designer: mm . marketing: 'cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . so double-curve . project manager: no , i think it means double curved as in um user interface: like an s_ shape . project manager: like uh a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . user interface: okay . project manager: okay , i might be wrong though . marketing: like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side . project manager: i do n't think that counts as a curve , i think that 's just a shape . marketing: hmm . hmm . industrial designer: project manager: a curvature is like the this case . user interface: okay . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: 'cause that 's the uh the biggest expense there , right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: yeah , and why why i 've got it two , i do n't know , i ca n't seem to select any more however . industrial designer: okay . well we can work around that um project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right . no . industrial designer: cut things out . but you think it should be one . project manager: it 's meant to be one , yeah , i do n't know why i put two in there , industrial designer: okay . project manager: but um hold on till i find it , i think this shift button might be stuck again . no maybe the shift button 's stuck in . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: should industrial designer: project manager: oh that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah , so we 're project manager: eleven uh eleven euros sixty . user interface: cool . cool . project manager: um user interface: so we could even add something . project manager: we cou oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately . industrial designer: we should fire the accountants . project manager: what ? industrial designer: fire the accountants . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: ah yeah , we could add things . project manager: industrial designer: maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you 're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: does that work ? project manager: yeah , i know , that just extends it as well . industrial designer: no mm . marketing: uh you can do one thing . project manager: i do n't know . marketing: you just select one box outsi yeah , this box . then move it with the help of this okay . project manager: it one of the buttons is sticking , i do n't know . marketing: just uh just uh okay , just a minute . okay . no input , like this . shift . no it 's not . project manager: no , it 's 'cause the uh the shift button 's stuck , or something . marketing: yeah , it 's not working . industrial designer: is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: should we ask meli project manager: marketing: should we ask our technical expert melissa ? project manager: no that 's fine . um we 've worked out what it would be anyway . industrial designer: did you try both shift buttons ? it could be the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: cancel . piss off . industrial designer: that 's too bad . project manager: oh well , never mind . um . right , so that 's finances and i dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? um user interface: well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: well i suppose that 's our that 's that 's our design that we 've got . so user interface: what do you th we 're trying to save money , so . yeah , if we 're happy with the design there 's no point in spending money , if we do n't have to . project manager: yeah . user interface: but if there is anything you think we 've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . maybe i mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: because it 's not in an ideal place right now . project manager: well that 's that 's uh okay , so project evaluation . we have under twelve euros fifty . project process , how do we think that went ? are we happy ? industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah i think we have a a winning product . project manager: okay . evaluation . oh we 've been writing this up for m months . user interface: i think it went quite smoothly . project manager: uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: w i think we were very creative . industrial designer: project manager: no , i mea i think it means sort of individually . user interface: oh right , okay . project manager: yes , no , maybe ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . groovy . so uh we 're just gon na . uh yeah , okay . teamwork ? leadership , sorry . industrial designer: great leadership . user interface: excellent leadership . marketing: project manager: thank you very much . you 're all get you 're all getting a raise . uh teamwork . i thought went well . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , everyone got enough input , i think . project manager: uh and well means , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , we project manager: the technical stuff was brilliant . marketing: project manager: let 's buy more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh right . um industrial designer: these pens are are neat though . project manager: i do n't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest . marketing: yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . we discussed all the new ideas , but of course we could n't reach any proper goals , we could n't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . these are new ideas we and new shapes , everything project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: . at le project manager: mm 'kay . groovy . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so just general thumbs up for all of us then . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . project manager: that kind of unfortunately is too quick . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: well um . industrial designer: project manager: uh . i suppose yeah . um . industrial designer: uh so let 's talk about our bonuses and the raises we 're getting for this , right . project manager: that 's it , um i think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . user interface: marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: uh let 's see if i can get this bloody thing to work . industrial designer: uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay . project manager: whoops . user interface: yeah , maybe . industrial designer: marketing: so project manager: does it go back in , does it ? reusable . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: something we should get . project manager: i do n't know what this is but it 's really really annoying . marketing: so uh brian , have you have you finished ? project manager: uh-huh . marketing: uh mine needs also this . project manager: um i have , yes . marketing: at last mine is also the presentation . project manager: huh ? oh right , okay , you 've got more , okay . marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: oh , you got a presentation , project manager: sorry uh . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: oh ok project manager: it did n't bother to tell me that on this marketing: s industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . is it ? okay . marketing: uh is the project evaluated , that is mine . project manager: does n't tell me . oh you 're doing that . marketing: yeah . project manager: we evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: uh . user interface: mm , love to eat that now . industrial designer: anybody user interface: kind of a green banana now . project manager: mm . industrial designer: clay covered banana . user interface: it 's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it 'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we 've got . project manager: o okay , hold on . user interface: i 've got . industrial designer: blue . user interface: project manager: i wonder w which cell do i want . industrial designer: it 's fun to touch . user interface: yeah . marketing: so . yeah . project manager: okay , i did n't realise you had that bit . marketing: so . user interface: oh could you pass the tomato please . project manager: user interface: sorry . thank you . marketing: so now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . how we are going to user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: means uh at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not . how mu what rating we will give to these products . so of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . so what methodology i will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this . project manager: okay . marketing: we will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . then marketing strategy of the company . as we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: sorry . sorry , marketing: yeah . user interface: carry on . marketing: so but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . so now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . i 'm having this scale this scale , project manager: okay . marketing: so we have to do it on a board . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: the user requirem i think . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: okay . project manager: the board working again , is it ? industrial designer: do we have the uh the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: um . industrial designer: there it is . marketing: thank you . project manager: marketing: so . user interface: marketing: so these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . first of all uh comes user requirement . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . i i will first i would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: um i think yeah , it did . marketing: s user interface: it had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so . project manager: when the user requirement is essentially just to operate the tv , user interface: does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: yeah . so . marketing: so what do you think you will personally give . project manager: of course we have n't actually got a working model yet . user interface: i would say seven . marketing: seven . uh . user interface: seven is good , yeah , is n't it ? i ca n't true or false ? no sorry tr one is true . marketing: project manager: one , yeah . marketing: uh one is means highest ranking , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: no it 's it 's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: no that 's false . marketing: okay , right right . so it 's one for from your point of view . user interface: okay , so one . marketing: and what do you say our industrial expert ? user interface: yep . industrial designer: uh . it 's hard to know . i i give it a two . marketing: uh d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: i think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i interface expert . industrial designer: okay . marketing: but you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: um yeah , i think i it might even exceed it um . but i guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons . project manager: industrial designer: um i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: two . industrial designer: two . marketing: and what about uh you , brian ? project manager: oh , i 'll go for a one . marketing: you will go for one . project manager: basic requirements but of the pro of the project . marketing: okay . uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: yeah th marketing: and user interface: mm yellow . marketing: uh yeah , lower end . and the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but if a person does n't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: come on that was the tha marketing: no , do n't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: so we are showing our preference for particular fruits , user interface: okay . industrial designer: project manager: being fruitist . marketing: two or three kinds rather , and yeah . so . user interface: is that no is that not trends ? marketing: uh no , uh personally as a marketing expert i do n't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . industrial designer: marketing: so you can what shape a person will like . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . and by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also . user interface: uh-huh . but in electronics , i think , it 's not q always quite so um you do n't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: i think , you know , if you 're going to buy a tv maybe a company 'll have that you 're going to choose from , a company 'll have two or three choices , but they 're different designs . we were coming up with one product . marketing: uh maybe . okay but i will i will personally wo n't give it beyond three . project manager: user interface: no , i mean uh obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: i 'm just trying to okay . marketing: so we can project manager: he 's a tough cookie . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . three or four ? project manager: marketing: uh , no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: six . five or six . user interface: what are we doing ? industrial designer: what are we doing ? marketing: no sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: adding them up ? industrial designer: we 're gon na average them ? marketing: yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: okay . so seven fourths . marketing: and that 's i have taken it very wrongly . user interface: oh . marketing: yeah uh industrial designer: about one point f one point eight . marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev yeah one pe exactly . so we can say one or two . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: because it is one point eight uh two , so we will do two . industrial designer: project manager: oh i see . industrial designer: yeah round it up to two . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: so trends . marketing: so where were the trends . industrial designer: can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: how it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the uh as a fruit shape or something . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: uh . user interface: well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , i would give it um , well , because it 's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so i would actually give it a three . marketing: user interface: tha three or four , i 'm not sure . marketing: okay . yeah . user interface: three . go for three . that 's fine . marketing: uh industrial designer: 'kay . as far as the uh technology it its ' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it 's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it does n't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . so i give it a a four . i 'd give it a kinda middle of the road for user interface: mm . industrial designer: for technology . project manager: yeah , i am sort of pret uh just the fruit does me in , i mean uh it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but i 'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh also uh i would have liked to have seen the lcd screen in it . um so yeah i 'd say about four as well . marketing: okay . uh personally i wi uh i think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and in this way our product is good . and the second thing , now people do n't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . project manager: marketing: so that is also ef that also user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . and yes . it is cus spongy also . so they can play with it , it 's quite good . project manager: marketing: so then i think , maybe i can give it two . so four five ten thirteen thirteen . so we can is it fine ? so what about company strategy ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: um . industrial designer: well it was yellow . project manager: user interface: yeah , the company strategy , okay . um there was lot of discussing , that was good . um i feel i got my say . um so i 'd give the company strategy a two . industrial designer: well , i think it 's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: is that the question ? project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: is it ? okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: okay , so one or two . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: one . okay , just leave it , it 's fine . industrial designer: i 'll go with two . marketing: so what about you , brian ? project manager: um yeah , a three . pretty much kept to the company strategy , so i would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers ' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . so since our product meets all these requirements , so i would also prefer to give it rank one . so four six six industrial designer: so one and a half . marketing: half . user interface: yeah , one . marketing: so we can say two or one industrial designer: a two . marketing: okay . so th seven seven . uh overall we are getting two something , but we can round it as two . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . so i think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good . project manager: cool , groovy . user interface: okay . industrial designer: s marketing: so we can launch it . yeah . project manager: cool . brilliant . user interface: woo-hoo . project manager: in which case we are done . 'cause we 've evaluated and we are within budget . industrial designer: okay . user interface: cool . marketing: so project manager: champagne lunch anyone ? industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . great . industrial designer: uh .

most time of the discussion of this meeting was devoted into the evaluation of the new remote controls . according to the whole team , this project was excellent because it was creative and with great leadership and teamwork . also , the technical stuff was brilliant . lots of new ideas were found , such as glow-in-dark , new shapes , etc . generally , they all gave a thumb up to the new remote controls . the overall evaluation is around two .

what 's the final evaluation of the project ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay , almost there . project manager: okay . we 'll sta i 'll use the powerpoint , i guess . how was that , was that fun ? user interface: mm . very fun . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . uh oh i 've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but i will do . industrial designer: okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: upsidaisy . um um we marketing: e excuse me i forgot my project manager: yeah . marketing: copy . project manager: alright , okay , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: he 's gon na get his pen . user interface: oh right . okay . project manager: um will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: yeah , there 's good news ? project manager: uh industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . project manager: we have budget problems . industrial designer: oh . cutbacks . project manager: i 'm afraid you 're all sacked . oops . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't even have this on . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay , have you got a presentation to make ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , not mine yet . project manager: no . okay industrial designer: oh . project manager: so it 's just your your show . industrial designer: um maybe we should bring so that the camera can see . yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . sure . industrial designer: okay . project manager: user interface: we made three for you . project manager: three ? oh . user interface: um one 's based on the banana , one 's based on the tomato project manager: tomato ? what tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't recall a tomato . user interface: look . oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over . project manager: ah i see , okay . user interface: so . okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mainly speak recognition . the yellow there is the um project manager: logo . user interface: the slogan , yeah , project manager: okay , brilliant . user interface: that we need to incorporate , it 's very simple . if you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there 's some there , project manager: okay . user interface: um but mainly it 's speech recognition . project manager: okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah and yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: mm i 'm not sure about that . um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier . project manager: right . user interface: yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want . project manager: that 's groovy . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . uh can i have project manager: well i like the feel of it , i like the feel of it . user interface: yeah , sure . um that one is marketing: oh sorry s user interface: oh no , it 's delicate . project manager: at oh dear . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: that 's that 's already got its stand that one . that 's it stand . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: it does also lie flat , but that 's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: okay , brilliant mm . user interface: um the black on the back is the slogan . project manager: okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: uh yeah , that marketing: user interface: well , we did think of that . project manager: if it 's standing up , i guess , yeah . user interface: yeah , if it 's standing up it 's it 's on there , but also we 're gon na have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . project manager: oh right , okay , brilliant . like that from its centre . user interface: so um and that 's the um transmit the l_e_d_ thing . these are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . we n were were n't sure about putting them there , because um i it 's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: where you 're , yeah , uh were you 're holding it kind of user interface: yeah . well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you 've got small hands . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , obviously i do n't think that 's real sized . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it would have to be a bit bigger . project manager: yeah , scale model , yeah . user interface: okay . um that 's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and um then the buttons . yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . tried to keep it simple . oh that 's the charging base prongs at the bottom . project manager: alright , excellent . user interface: we used those . and um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's not in the traditional place , project manager: no . user interface: but um it 's quite an obvious place . project manager: it 's out of the way as well , i suppose , so . excellent . user interface: so there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too . industrial designer: oh yeah , yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: this one is uh , i suppose for the younger audiences . user interface: industrial designer: a a more friendly type of project manager: okay , so so barney the banana . industrial designer: right , right . it 's to uh induce more television watching i suppose or project manager: ah excellent , just what we need . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: say it for the camera . project manager: lo sort of loch ness banana . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: cool yeah . well , nice to have uh options at least . industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay and user interface: so are there any um improvements or issues or industrial designer: it wo n't stand . project manager: oh there are issues , oh there are issues . industrial designer: just let it lie down , it wont stand . user interface: project manager: um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: uh , let 's just enter in the um evaluation criteria . industrial designer: project manager: um unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it 's gon na cost us fourteen point six euros . marketing: mm . user interface: oh . project manager: so we have to industrial designer: what 's on the uh on the left ? project manager: rea sorry , i 've accidentally highlighted somehow um . there we go . industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh god , why is it doing that ? user interface: ooh . project manager: there we go . so basically , um in order to save our two euros um i was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um . user interface: more like a traditional remote control . project manager: yeah , i mean it 's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it would n't have to be curved sort of in and out . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and by doing so oh no , hold on . does n't save us quite as much . i do n't know what 's going on with this again . industrial designer: w why is the uh double curved two of them ? project manager: oh , good point . marketing: and double curve on both sides ? project manager: um . marketing: curve . yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: that 's sort of curve in and out . marketing: no ? industrial designer: is i marketing: this is double-curve . it this one is single curve . industrial designer: mm . marketing: 'cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . so double-curve . project manager: no , i think it means double curved as in um user interface: like an s_ shape . project manager: like uh a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . user interface: okay . project manager: okay , i might be wrong though . marketing: like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side . project manager: i do n't think that counts as a curve , i think that 's just a shape . marketing: hmm . hmm . industrial designer: project manager: a curvature is like the this case . user interface: okay . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: 'cause that 's the uh the biggest expense there , right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: yeah , and why why i 've got it two , i do n't know , i ca n't seem to select any more however . industrial designer: okay . well we can work around that um project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right . no . industrial designer: cut things out . but you think it should be one . project manager: it 's meant to be one , yeah , i do n't know why i put two in there , industrial designer: okay . project manager: but um hold on till i find it , i think this shift button might be stuck again . no maybe the shift button 's stuck in . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: should industrial designer: project manager: oh that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah , so we 're project manager: eleven uh eleven euros sixty . user interface: cool . cool . project manager: um user interface: so we could even add something . project manager: we cou oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately . industrial designer: we should fire the accountants . project manager: what ? industrial designer: fire the accountants . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: ah yeah , we could add things . project manager: industrial designer: maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you 're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: does that work ? project manager: yeah , i know , that just extends it as well . industrial designer: no mm . marketing: uh you can do one thing . project manager: i do n't know . marketing: you just select one box outsi yeah , this box . then move it with the help of this okay . project manager: it one of the buttons is sticking , i do n't know . marketing: just uh just uh okay , just a minute . okay . no input , like this . shift . no it 's not . project manager: no , it 's 'cause the uh the shift button 's stuck , or something . marketing: yeah , it 's not working . industrial designer: is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: should we ask meli project manager: marketing: should we ask our technical expert melissa ? project manager: no that 's fine . um we 've worked out what it would be anyway . industrial designer: did you try both shift buttons ? it could be the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: cancel . piss off . industrial designer: that 's too bad . project manager: oh well , never mind . um . right , so that 's finances and i dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? um user interface: well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: well i suppose that 's our that 's that 's our design that we 've got . so user interface: what do you th we 're trying to save money , so . yeah , if we 're happy with the design there 's no point in spending money , if we do n't have to . project manager: yeah . user interface: but if there is anything you think we 've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . maybe i mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: because it 's not in an ideal place right now . project manager: well that 's that 's uh okay , so project evaluation . we have under twelve euros fifty . project process , how do we think that went ? are we happy ? industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah i think we have a a winning product . project manager: okay . evaluation . oh we 've been writing this up for m months . user interface: i think it went quite smoothly . project manager: uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: w i think we were very creative . industrial designer: project manager: no , i mea i think it means sort of individually . user interface: oh right , okay . project manager: yes , no , maybe ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . groovy . so uh we 're just gon na . uh yeah , okay . teamwork ? leadership , sorry . industrial designer: great leadership . user interface: excellent leadership . marketing: project manager: thank you very much . you 're all get you 're all getting a raise . uh teamwork . i thought went well . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , everyone got enough input , i think . project manager: uh and well means , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , we project manager: the technical stuff was brilliant . marketing: project manager: let 's buy more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh right . um industrial designer: these pens are are neat though . project manager: i do n't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest . marketing: yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . we discussed all the new ideas , but of course we could n't reach any proper goals , we could n't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . these are new ideas we and new shapes , everything project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: . at le project manager: mm 'kay . groovy . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so just general thumbs up for all of us then . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . project manager: that kind of unfortunately is too quick . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: well um . industrial designer: project manager: uh . i suppose yeah . um . industrial designer: uh so let 's talk about our bonuses and the raises we 're getting for this , right . project manager: that 's it , um i think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . user interface: marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: uh let 's see if i can get this bloody thing to work . industrial designer: uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay . project manager: whoops . user interface: yeah , maybe . industrial designer: marketing: so project manager: does it go back in , does it ? reusable . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: something we should get . project manager: i do n't know what this is but it 's really really annoying . marketing: so uh brian , have you have you finished ? project manager: uh-huh . marketing: uh mine needs also this . project manager: um i have , yes . marketing: at last mine is also the presentation . project manager: huh ? oh right , okay , you 've got more , okay . marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: oh , you got a presentation , project manager: sorry uh . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: oh ok project manager: it did n't bother to tell me that on this marketing: s industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . is it ? okay . marketing: uh is the project evaluated , that is mine . project manager: does n't tell me . oh you 're doing that . marketing: yeah . project manager: we evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: uh . user interface: mm , love to eat that now . industrial designer: anybody user interface: kind of a green banana now . project manager: mm . industrial designer: clay covered banana . user interface: it 's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it 'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we 've got . project manager: o okay , hold on . user interface: i 've got . industrial designer: blue . user interface: project manager: i wonder w which cell do i want . industrial designer: it 's fun to touch . user interface: yeah . marketing: so . yeah . project manager: okay , i did n't realise you had that bit . marketing: so . user interface: oh could you pass the tomato please . project manager: user interface: sorry . thank you . marketing: so now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . how we are going to user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: means uh at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not . how mu what rating we will give to these products . so of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . so what methodology i will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this . project manager: okay . marketing: we will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . then marketing strategy of the company . as we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: sorry . sorry , marketing: yeah . user interface: carry on . marketing: so but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . so now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . i 'm having this scale this scale , project manager: okay . marketing: so we have to do it on a board . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: the user requirem i think . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: okay . project manager: the board working again , is it ? industrial designer: do we have the uh the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: um . industrial designer: there it is . marketing: thank you . project manager: marketing: so . user interface: marketing: so these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . first of all uh comes user requirement . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . i i will first i would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: um i think yeah , it did . marketing: s user interface: it had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so . project manager: when the user requirement is essentially just to operate the tv , user interface: does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: yeah . so . marketing: so what do you think you will personally give . project manager: of course we have n't actually got a working model yet . user interface: i would say seven . marketing: seven . uh . user interface: seven is good , yeah , is n't it ? i ca n't true or false ? no sorry tr one is true . marketing: project manager: one , yeah . marketing: uh one is means highest ranking , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: no it 's it 's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: no that 's false . marketing: okay , right right . so it 's one for from your point of view . user interface: okay , so one . marketing: and what do you say our industrial expert ? user interface: yep . industrial designer: uh . it 's hard to know . i i give it a two . marketing: uh d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: i think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i interface expert . industrial designer: okay . marketing: but you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: um yeah , i think i it might even exceed it um . but i guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons . project manager: industrial designer: um i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: two . industrial designer: two . marketing: and what about uh you , brian ? project manager: oh , i 'll go for a one . marketing: you will go for one . project manager: basic requirements but of the pro of the project . marketing: okay . uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: yeah th marketing: and user interface: mm yellow . marketing: uh yeah , lower end . and the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but if a person does n't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: come on that was the tha marketing: no , do n't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: so we are showing our preference for particular fruits , user interface: okay . industrial designer: project manager: being fruitist . marketing: two or three kinds rather , and yeah . so . user interface: is that no is that not trends ? marketing: uh no , uh personally as a marketing expert i do n't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . industrial designer: marketing: so you can what shape a person will like . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . and by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also . user interface: uh-huh . but in electronics , i think , it 's not q always quite so um you do n't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: i think , you know , if you 're going to buy a tv maybe a company 'll have that you 're going to choose from , a company 'll have two or three choices , but they 're different designs . we were coming up with one product . marketing: uh maybe . okay but i will i will personally wo n't give it beyond three . project manager: user interface: no , i mean uh obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: i 'm just trying to okay . marketing: so we can project manager: he 's a tough cookie . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . three or four ? project manager: marketing: uh , no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: six . five or six . user interface: what are we doing ? industrial designer: what are we doing ? marketing: no sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: adding them up ? industrial designer: we 're gon na average them ? marketing: yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: okay . so seven fourths . marketing: and that 's i have taken it very wrongly . user interface: oh . marketing: yeah uh industrial designer: about one point f one point eight . marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev yeah one pe exactly . so we can say one or two . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: because it is one point eight uh two , so we will do two . industrial designer: project manager: oh i see . industrial designer: yeah round it up to two . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: so trends . marketing: so where were the trends . industrial designer: can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: how it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the uh as a fruit shape or something . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: uh . user interface: well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , i would give it um , well , because it 's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so i would actually give it a three . marketing: user interface: tha three or four , i 'm not sure . marketing: okay . yeah . user interface: three . go for three . that 's fine . marketing: uh industrial designer: 'kay . as far as the uh technology it its ' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it 's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it does n't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . so i give it a a four . i 'd give it a kinda middle of the road for user interface: mm . industrial designer: for technology . project manager: yeah , i am sort of pret uh just the fruit does me in , i mean uh it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but i 'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh also uh i would have liked to have seen the lcd screen in it . um so yeah i 'd say about four as well . marketing: okay . uh personally i wi uh i think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and in this way our product is good . and the second thing , now people do n't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . project manager: marketing: so that is also ef that also user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . and yes . it is cus spongy also . so they can play with it , it 's quite good . project manager: marketing: so then i think , maybe i can give it two . so four five ten thirteen thirteen . so we can is it fine ? so what about company strategy ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: um . industrial designer: well it was yellow . project manager: user interface: yeah , the company strategy , okay . um there was lot of discussing , that was good . um i feel i got my say . um so i 'd give the company strategy a two . industrial designer: well , i think it 's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: is that the question ? project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: is it ? okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: okay , so one or two . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: one . okay , just leave it , it 's fine . industrial designer: i 'll go with two . marketing: so what about you , brian ? project manager: um yeah , a three . pretty much kept to the company strategy , so i would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers ' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . so since our product meets all these requirements , so i would also prefer to give it rank one . so four six six industrial designer: so one and a half . marketing: half . user interface: yeah , one . marketing: so we can say two or one industrial designer: a two . marketing: okay . so th seven seven . uh overall we are getting two something , but we can round it as two . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . so i think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good . project manager: cool , groovy . user interface: okay . industrial designer: s marketing: so we can launch it . yeah . project manager: cool . brilliant . user interface: woo-hoo . project manager: in which case we are done . 'cause we 've evaluated and we are within budget . industrial designer: okay . user interface: cool . marketing: so project manager: champagne lunch anyone ? industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . great . industrial designer: uh .

in order to make the final evaluation , the team needed to give rating to these products . of the design of the three fruits , the teams agreed to give two points . as for the trend , since fruits and vegetables were quite populous , the final rating was three . in terms of the company strategy , the rating was one because it perfectly conformed to the strategy . the overall evaluation is around two , which was quite good .

why did the team have different opinions when evaluating the design of three fruits ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay , almost there . project manager: okay . we 'll sta i 'll use the powerpoint , i guess . how was that , was that fun ? user interface: mm . very fun . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . uh oh i 've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but i will do . industrial designer: okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: upsidaisy . um um we marketing: e excuse me i forgot my project manager: yeah . marketing: copy . project manager: alright , okay , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: he 's gon na get his pen . user interface: oh right . okay . project manager: um will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ? industrial designer: yeah , there 's good news ? project manager: uh industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . project manager: we have budget problems . industrial designer: oh . cutbacks . project manager: i 'm afraid you 're all sacked . oops . industrial designer: project manager: i do n't even have this on . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: okay , have you got a presentation to make ? industrial designer: okay . marketing: no , not mine yet . project manager: no . okay industrial designer: oh . project manager: so it 's just your your show . industrial designer: um maybe we should bring so that the camera can see . yeah . project manager: user interface: okay . sure . industrial designer: okay . project manager: user interface: we made three for you . project manager: three ? oh . user interface: um one 's based on the banana , one 's based on the tomato project manager: tomato ? what tomato ? user interface: and the other one is st marketing: industrial designer: project manager: i do n't recall a tomato . user interface: look . oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over . project manager: ah i see , okay . user interface: so . okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mainly speak recognition . the yellow there is the um project manager: logo . user interface: the slogan , yeah , project manager: okay , brilliant . user interface: that we need to incorporate , it 's very simple . if you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there 's some there , project manager: okay . user interface: um but mainly it 's speech recognition . project manager: okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah and yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: mm i 'm not sure about that . um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier . project manager: right . user interface: yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want . project manager: that 's groovy . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . uh can i have project manager: well i like the feel of it , i like the feel of it . user interface: yeah , sure . um that one is marketing: oh sorry s user interface: oh no , it 's delicate . project manager: at oh dear . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: that 's that 's already got its stand that one . that 's it stand . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: it does also lie flat , but that 's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand . project manager: okay , brilliant mm . user interface: um the black on the back is the slogan . project manager: okay , nice and obvious there , user interface: uh yeah , that marketing: user interface: well , we did think of that . project manager: if it 's standing up , i guess , yeah . user interface: yeah , if it 's standing up it 's it 's on there , but also we 're gon na have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle . project manager: oh right , okay , brilliant . like that from its centre . user interface: so um and that 's the um transmit the l_e_d_ thing . these are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . we n were were n't sure about putting them there , because um i it 's it kind of could get bashed . project manager: where you 're , yeah , uh were you 're holding it kind of user interface: yeah . well , if you hold it , you can you all can hold it , is it does actually feel quite ergonomic , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: if you 've got small hands . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , obviously i do n't think that 's real sized . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: it would have to be a bit bigger . project manager: yeah , scale model , yeah . user interface: okay . um that 's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and um then the buttons . yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . tried to keep it simple . oh that 's the charging base prongs at the bottom . project manager: alright , excellent . user interface: we used those . and um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's not in the traditional place , project manager: no . user interface: but um it 's quite an obvious place . project manager: it 's out of the way as well , i suppose , so . excellent . user interface: so there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too . industrial designer: oh yeah , yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: this one is uh , i suppose for the younger audiences . user interface: industrial designer: a a more friendly type of project manager: okay , so so barney the banana . industrial designer: right , right . it 's to uh induce more television watching i suppose or project manager: ah excellent , just what we need . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: say it for the camera . project manager: lo sort of loch ness banana . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: cool yeah . well , nice to have uh options at least . industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay and user interface: so are there any um improvements or issues or industrial designer: it wo n't stand . project manager: oh there are issues , oh there are issues . industrial designer: just let it lie down , it wont stand . user interface: project manager: um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance . industrial designer: user interface: oh . project manager: uh , let 's just enter in the um evaluation criteria . industrial designer: project manager: um unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it 's gon na cost us fourteen point six euros . marketing: mm . user interface: oh . project manager: so we have to industrial designer: what 's on the uh on the left ? project manager: rea sorry , i 've accidentally highlighted somehow um . there we go . industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh god , why is it doing that ? user interface: ooh . project manager: there we go . so basically , um in order to save our two euros um i was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um . user interface: more like a traditional remote control . project manager: yeah , i mean it 's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it would n't have to be curved sort of in and out . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and by doing so oh no , hold on . does n't save us quite as much . i do n't know what 's going on with this again . industrial designer: w why is the uh double curved two of them ? project manager: oh , good point . marketing: and double curve on both sides ? project manager: um . marketing: curve . yeah , this is double-curve , project manager: that 's sort of curve in and out . marketing: no ? industrial designer: is i marketing: this is double-curve . it this one is single curve . industrial designer: mm . marketing: 'cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . so double-curve . project manager: no , i think it means double curved as in um user interface: like an s_ shape . project manager: like uh a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward . user interface: okay . project manager: okay , i might be wrong though . marketing: like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side . project manager: i do n't think that counts as a curve , i think that 's just a shape . marketing: hmm . hmm . industrial designer: project manager: a curvature is like the this case . user interface: okay . marketing: maybe . industrial designer: 'cause that 's the uh the biggest expense there , right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: got two of them project manager: yeah , and why why i 've got it two , i do n't know , i ca n't seem to select any more however . industrial designer: okay . well we can work around that um project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right . no . industrial designer: cut things out . but you think it should be one . project manager: it 's meant to be one , yeah , i do n't know why i put two in there , industrial designer: okay . project manager: but um hold on till i find it , i think this shift button might be stuck again . no maybe the shift button 's stuck in . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us marketing: should industrial designer: project manager: oh that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah , so we 're project manager: eleven uh eleven euros sixty . user interface: cool . cool . project manager: um user interface: so we could even add something . project manager: we cou oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately . industrial designer: we should fire the accountants . project manager: what ? industrial designer: fire the accountants . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: ah yeah , we could add things . project manager: industrial designer: maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you 're starting from , and then use the arrow keys . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: does that work ? project manager: yeah , i know , that just extends it as well . industrial designer: no mm . marketing: uh you can do one thing . project manager: i do n't know . marketing: you just select one box outsi yeah , this box . then move it with the help of this okay . project manager: it one of the buttons is sticking , i do n't know . marketing: just uh just uh okay , just a minute . okay . no input , like this . shift . no it 's not . project manager: no , it 's 'cause the uh the shift button 's stuck , or something . marketing: yeah , it 's not working . industrial designer: is it the other shift button maybe ? marketing: should we ask meli project manager: marketing: should we ask our technical expert melissa ? project manager: no that 's fine . um we 've worked out what it would be anyway . industrial designer: did you try both shift buttons ? it could be the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: cancel . piss off . industrial designer: that 's too bad . project manager: oh well , never mind . um . right , so that 's finances and i dunno what we what could we reckon we could add ? um user interface: well maybe we could add something , but maybe if project manager: well i suppose that 's our that 's that 's our design that we 've got . so user interface: what do you th we 're trying to save money , so . yeah , if we 're happy with the design there 's no point in spending money , if we do n't have to . project manager: yeah . user interface: but if there is anything you think we 've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . maybe i mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: because it 's not in an ideal place right now . project manager: well that 's that 's uh okay , so project evaluation . we have under twelve euros fifty . project process , how do we think that went ? are we happy ? industrial designer: oh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah i think we have a a winning product . project manager: okay . evaluation . oh we 've been writing this up for m months . user interface: i think it went quite smoothly . project manager: uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ? user interface: w i think we were very creative . industrial designer: project manager: no , i mea i think it means sort of individually . user interface: oh right , okay . project manager: yes , no , maybe ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . groovy . so uh we 're just gon na . uh yeah , okay . teamwork ? leadership , sorry . industrial designer: great leadership . user interface: excellent leadership . marketing: project manager: thank you very much . you 're all get you 're all getting a raise . uh teamwork . i thought went well . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , everyone got enough input , i think . project manager: uh and well means , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , we project manager: the technical stuff was brilliant . marketing: project manager: let 's buy more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh right . um industrial designer: these pens are are neat though . project manager: i do n't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest . marketing: yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . we discussed all the new ideas , but of course we could n't reach any proper goals , we could n't use these , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . these are new ideas we and new shapes , everything project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: . at le project manager: mm 'kay . groovy . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so just general thumbs up for all of us then . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . project manager: that kind of unfortunately is too quick . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: well um . industrial designer: project manager: uh . i suppose yeah . um . industrial designer: uh so let 's talk about our bonuses and the raises we 're getting for this , right . project manager: that 's it , um i think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you . user interface: marketing: user interface: mm . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: uh let 's see if i can get this bloody thing to work . industrial designer: uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay . project manager: whoops . user interface: yeah , maybe . industrial designer: marketing: so project manager: does it go back in , does it ? reusable . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: something we should get . project manager: i do n't know what this is but it 's really really annoying . marketing: so uh brian , have you have you finished ? project manager: uh-huh . marketing: uh mine needs also this . project manager: um i have , yes . marketing: at last mine is also the presentation . project manager: huh ? oh right , okay , you 've got more , okay . marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: oh , you got a presentation , project manager: sorry uh . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: oh ok project manager: it did n't bother to tell me that on this marketing: s industrial designer: marketing: project manager: thing . is it ? okay . marketing: uh is the project evaluated , that is mine . project manager: does n't tell me . oh you 're doing that . marketing: yeah . project manager: we evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . marketing: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: uh . user interface: mm , love to eat that now . industrial designer: anybody user interface: kind of a green banana now . project manager: mm . industrial designer: clay covered banana . user interface: it 's this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it 'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we 've got . project manager: o okay , hold on . user interface: i 've got . industrial designer: blue . user interface: project manager: i wonder w which cell do i want . industrial designer: it 's fun to touch . user interface: yeah . marketing: so . yeah . project manager: okay , i did n't realise you had that bit . marketing: so . user interface: oh could you pass the tomato please . project manager: user interface: sorry . thank you . marketing: so now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . how we are going to user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: means uh at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not . how mu what rating we will give to these products . so of course this is will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . so what methodology i will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this . project manager: okay . marketing: we will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . then trends , whether it is as fashion trends or not ? means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . then marketing strategy of the company . as we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s user interface: sorry . sorry , marketing: yeah . user interface: carry on . marketing: so but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . so now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . i 'm having this scale this scale , project manager: okay . marketing: so we have to do it on a board . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: the user requirem i think . project manager: alright , okay . user interface: okay . project manager: the board working again , is it ? industrial designer: do we have the uh the marker for the board ? project manager: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: um . industrial designer: there it is . marketing: thank you . project manager: marketing: so . user interface: marketing: so these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . first of all uh comes user requirement . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . i i will first i would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? user interface: um i think yeah , it did . marketing: s user interface: it had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so . project manager: when the user requirement is essentially just to operate the tv , user interface: does it work ? project manager: so yeah , user interface: yeah . so . marketing: so what do you think you will personally give . project manager: of course we have n't actually got a working model yet . user interface: i would say seven . marketing: seven . uh . user interface: seven is good , yeah , is n't it ? i ca n't true or false ? no sorry tr one is true . marketing: project manager: one , yeah . marketing: uh one is means highest ranking , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i think highest ranking is seven , or one ? project manager: no it 's it 's like true is one end , and false is the oth industrial designer: no that 's false . marketing: okay , right right . so it 's one for from your point of view . user interface: okay , so one . marketing: and what do you say our industrial expert ? user interface: yep . industrial designer: uh . it 's hard to know . i i give it a two . marketing: uh d you can you can tell on on the like project manager: marketing: i think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i interface expert . industrial designer: okay . marketing: but you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? industrial designer: um yeah , i think i it might even exceed it um . but i guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons . project manager: industrial designer: um i 'm gon na give it a two . marketing: two . industrial designer: two . marketing: and what about uh you , brian ? project manager: oh , i 'll go for a one . marketing: you will go for one . project manager: basic requirements but of the pro of the project . marketing: okay . uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange , industrial designer: project manager: yeah th marketing: and user interface: mm yellow . marketing: uh yeah , lower end . and the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: but if a person does n't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: come on that was the tha marketing: no , do n't buy our product , because we are l we like this only . project manager: 'kay . user interface: uh-huh . marketing: so we are showing our preference for particular fruits , user interface: okay . industrial designer: project manager: being fruitist . marketing: two or three kinds rather , and yeah . so . user interface: is that no is that not trends ? marketing: uh no , uh personally as a marketing expert i do n't believe that , project manager: marketing: because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape . industrial designer: marketing: so you can what shape a person will like . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . and by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also . user interface: uh-huh . but in electronics , i think , it 's not q always quite so um you do n't always have so many choices as with chocolates . project manager: user interface: i think , you know , if you 're going to buy a tv maybe a company 'll have that you 're going to choose from , a company 'll have two or three choices , but they 're different designs . we were coming up with one product . marketing: uh maybe . okay but i will i will personally wo n't give it beyond three . project manager: user interface: no , i mean uh obviously your opinion , industrial designer: user interface: i 'm just trying to okay . marketing: so we can project manager: he 's a tough cookie . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . three or four ? project manager: marketing: uh , no sorry , industrial designer: marketing: it should be project manager: six . five or six . user interface: what are we doing ? industrial designer: what are we doing ? marketing: no sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing . user interface: adding them up ? industrial designer: we 're gon na average them ? marketing: yeah , yeah , we are taking everything , industrial designer: okay . so seven fourths . marketing: and that 's i have taken it very wrongly . user interface: oh . marketing: yeah uh industrial designer: about one point f one point eight . marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev yeah one pe exactly . so we can say one or two . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: because it is one point eight uh two , so we will do two . industrial designer: project manager: oh i see . industrial designer: yeah round it up to two . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , yeah . industrial designer: so trends . marketing: so where were the trends . industrial designer: can you explain what you want us to write there ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: how it how conforms to the current trends ? marketing: yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the uh as a fruit shape or something . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: uh . user interface: well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , i would give it um , well , because it 's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know , project manager: user interface: so i would actually give it a three . marketing: user interface: tha three or four , i 'm not sure . marketing: okay . yeah . user interface: three . go for three . that 's fine . marketing: uh industrial designer: 'kay . as far as the uh technology it its ' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it 's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it does n't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . so i give it a a four . i 'd give it a kinda middle of the road for user interface: mm . industrial designer: for technology . project manager: yeah , i am sort of pret uh just the fruit does me in , i mean uh it might user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: it might be trendy to some , but i 'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh also uh i would have liked to have seen the lcd screen in it . um so yeah i 'd say about four as well . marketing: okay . uh personally i wi uh i think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them or showing some association with them . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so and in this way our product is good . and the second thing , now people do n't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy . project manager: marketing: so that is also ef that also user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . and yes . it is cus spongy also . so they can play with it , it 's quite good . project manager: marketing: so then i think , maybe i can give it two . so four five ten thirteen thirteen . so we can is it fine ? so what about company strategy ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: um . industrial designer: well it was yellow . project manager: user interface: yeah , the company strategy , okay . um there was lot of discussing , that was good . um i feel i got my say . um so i 'd give the company strategy a two . industrial designer: well , i think it 's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: is that the question ? project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: is it ? okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: okay , so one or two . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: one . okay , just leave it , it 's fine . industrial designer: i 'll go with two . marketing: so what about you , brian ? project manager: um yeah , a three . pretty much kept to the company strategy , so i would go for a a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by user interface: mm . marketing: yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers ' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . so since our product meets all these requirements , so i would also prefer to give it rank one . so four six six industrial designer: so one and a half . marketing: half . user interface: yeah , one . marketing: so we can say two or one industrial designer: a two . marketing: okay . so th seven seven . uh overall we are getting two something , but we can round it as two . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . so i think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good . project manager: cool , groovy . user interface: okay . industrial designer: s marketing: so we can launch it . yeah . project manager: cool . brilliant . user interface: woo-hoo . project manager: in which case we are done . 'cause we 've evaluated and we are within budget . industrial designer: okay . user interface: cool . marketing: so project manager: champagne lunch anyone ? industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . great . industrial designer: uh .

basically , the dissent mainly came from marketing . according to marketing , the company failed to offer enough options to the customers ( only three options ) . therefore , customers were limited . by limiting the customers , sales and profits would definitely be limited as well . however , user interface disagreed with him because he believed that electronics were not the same as other products , for example chocolate . there were not always quite so many choices in electronics .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

the group had a heated discussion over the functional design and the market positioning of their new product . first , user interface introduced the basic components of the remote control and the cost of them . when discussing the user interface design , the group agreed that the product should be good-looking and branded with their company logo . industrial designer thought they should keep the functions simple and basic and aimed at the exterior design . then , the group talked much about the teletext and whether the controller should be only for tv . when it came to the market positioning , the opinion of user interface differed from marketing 's - the former tended to keep it simple but the latter thought there should be something special about the product to make it exclusive .

summarize the discussion about basic components and the cost . </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

the basic components included power source , user interface , a programmable digital signal processor , on-off switch , encryption codes for the different modes of tvs , and memory system . then user interface presented the basic layout of how the remote would work . in terms of the cost , the most costly component was the chip and the casing would be expensive as well . led , the transistors and everything else were pretty cheap . the price of the chip depended on what functionality the product would have and how much the battery capacity and storage would be . for the moment , they did n't have a ballpark figure .

summarize the discussion about functional design and user interface design . </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

the group agreed that the product should be good-looking and branded with their company logo . industrial designer thought they should keep the functions simple and basic and aimed at the exterior design . as for the teletext , project manager had intended to remove it from their new product , but considering the popularity of teletext , they decided to keep it since it would n't affect the price anyway . besides , the product was demanded to be only for tv , but marketing thought they should design an all-in-one ultimate remote control which would be easier to sell .

what did marketing think of the proposal of eliminating teletext technology from their product ? </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

marketing disapproved of this proposal because though teletext was becoming outdated as project manager said , more than eighty percent of the current televisions were still teletext and people were very comfortable with the idea of having and using teletext . besides , marketing could n't understand why the advent of the internet would eliminate the need for teletext . even so , if they were to remove the teletext from the controller , they had to bring something very attractive to take the place of it .

what did user interface recommend to do when discussing the functional design and why ? </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

user interface recommended to design a power cradle for the controller so that it would be unnecessary to change batteries . in this way , users would always know where the remote was because they had to put the device back to the cradle to charge it , which addressed the problem of losing it . this attempt would also do good to the look and feel of the remote control as a whole . the idea would be considered by the group , but they had to look into how much this might increase the cost .

summarize the discussion about marketing positioning of the product . </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

the group decided to make the new product good-looking , durable and environmentally sensitive , but the opinion of user interface had a little difference with marketing 's - the former thought the product should only have some basic functions but the latter thought there should be something special about the product to make it exclusive .

summarize the opinion of user interface about marketing positioning of the product . </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

user interface believed that most people bought a new remote control just because they lost their old one and needed another one that could work with their tv . what they wanted was something ergonomic , durable , and good-looking . actually , few people would use every function of the controller , so they should just keep the product simple instead of adding cost for advanced features .

what was marketing 's opinion on marketing positioning of the product ? </s> project manager: so we are here to talk about functional design . now hopefully we 've all got a better idea from than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . so here 's an agenda . uh i 'll open . um you should know that i 'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as i was struggling to our last time uh and that 'll be easier for me now because i 'm not actually giving the whole presentation . uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that i forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful . industrial designer: project manager: um now you can all give your presentations . we can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . here 's the additional points i just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . uh did you all receive that email ? user interface: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so does anyone have any overall marketing: well uh what comes up for me is that if we 're gon na if we 're gon na be marketing a product that is going to be uh having no teletext , people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we 're not we 're gon na be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now . project manager: mm . mm . yep . marketing: so that 's , from a marketing perspective i i see i see a lack . project manager: mm . marketing: and so we have to go , i think , in the other direction . what are we gon na have that makes this thing better than project manager: well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the internet there is the opportunity that 's presented , i guess . marketing: right . yeah . no , i i agree with you . project manager: okay . marketing: so what i 'm talking about is i see that one side we 're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gon na be targeting our market uh that identifies our product as better than because it does n't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta . project manager: okay . marketing: so that 's that 's that was my reactions . project manager: yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television . marketing: yeah yeah . project manager: so we 're quite fixed . so we 're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that 's uh that 's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yeah bu but we we 're designing only the remote , project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: we not design the tv . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: so uh we 're gon na be removing the teletext out of any tv that we people use our remote with . marketing: yeah . 'kay . project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's right . industrial designer: so it 's kind of a stupid decision . marketing: i think we take with you . project manager: but there 's also the potential for mark there 's a market here for our lost teletext . user interface: right . project manager: for example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible . twenty-five euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here i guess . marketing: that 's what i 'm that 's what i 'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gon na be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gon na be hap unhappy 'cause it took they ca n't ac access their teletext . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . 'cause we 're talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext . project manager: k yeah . marketing: so so it 's it 's not that i 'm criticizing the product at all . it 's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? what are we bringing in to take the place of this , project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up . industrial designer: marketing: if we lose one we need to bring two or three . project manager: okay . okay i think that the last point is probably quite uh straightforward . obviously the the w it has to be branded . 'kay . industrial designer: so then the double r_ will be our our project manager: on the product yeah . can you handle that black and yellow ? user interface: i think one of industrial designer: i tho i tho i thou i think rol ro rolls-royce might mind , but do n't worry . user interface: i think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we 're doing this i mean our company 's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . so i think our kind of our target here is to have some kind of very like sleek nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but i think one of the main selling points is that we do n't want it to be clunky like like this thing here . project manager: mm . user interface: you know we do n't wan na a big clunker . we want something that looks nice and it 's fashionable and so marketing: so you have this ? project manager: nah . so we have three presentations , and i think we 'll go in order of participant number here . so we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . that 's okay . industrial designer: yes . user interface: that 's fine . okay so project manager: mm it 's enough . but uh click it on off ? user interface: so you all know me , i 'm the industrial designer . and we 've some basic components that um our remote is gon na need , just basically every remote 'll need 'em . industrial designer: user interface: we need some kinda of power d power source . um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red l_e_d_ , which you aim at the television uh which and it receives that signal . you need a on-off switch um i do n't know how that got in there . and uh we also need to um have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of tvs . so we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that 'll require some memory as well . um so here 's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . you ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red l_e_d_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . so those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around . marketing: now is would this be considered just a standard uh um user interface: i think any des marketing: this is not this is not cutting edge technology we 're talking here . user interface: no . marketing: we 're talking about existing technology . user interface: right i think marketing: nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries . user interface: yeah this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are gon na be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . we can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , i mean that i mean that you can kinda say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: do we have an idea of costs of different components ? user interface: um well the most the most costly components are gon na be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gon na be expensive as well . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um the l_e_d_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they 're they 're pretty cheap . so depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power . project manager: do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? no . user interface: uh i do n't have any figures right now . project manager: 'kay . user interface: we uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but and i think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , i think . marketing: n okay . mm . mm the shell ? user interface: yeah . basically yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . user interface: so yeah . that 's all i have really . project manager: okay . thanks . and we have participant three , which i believe is pedro . industrial designer: i project manager: i can give you that to click on . industrial designer: hey mouse . marketing: industrial designer: open . project manager: and you wan na get industrial designer: when we 're fighting over it 's also more lot more fun . project manager: view a slide show , that 's what you wan na do , yeah ? just go up to view . user interface: click , do n't yeah . industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm 'kay industrial designer: this does n't work . so yeah function design . um you guys know me , pedro , and um what i found is we want to do fashion and i think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . if basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . um something cute and small . the big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . so we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at . project manager: industrial designer: and um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people wo n't wo n't get too mad of actually having to go the to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their the stations . there 's no need to have that in the remote . so um um as for what i would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh i will change the colours on the on the logo , but um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . um and uh although i th i th i 'm still here recommending the teletext so i 'll remove that , i guess , but um we should go for the project manager: but i t i think what the the management recommendation was less that there 's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we should n't have it . so i i still think if it 's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise we 're just going to i mean even if it 's necessary or not , if you if you 're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really if it i if it is n't more expensive for us to k make because as far as i understand it , it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? so it should be in there . user interface: right as far as industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i it 's just uh the cost of an extra button . i mean software-wise there 's really no difference . project manager: yeah . okay . is n't user interface: i think . marketing: i have maybe a silly question . i in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there 's gon na be the it 's gon na be out-moded teletext . i i do n't understand how those two things are connected . how does how does computers and teletext h how why is one eliminating the need of the other ? i do n't understand that . project manager: well maybe what we 're getting into here is the the idea of uh internet through the tv for example . so that might play on what we can do . industrial designer: yeah the they 're basically aiming at saying that you would use you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that user interface: scheduling . um to find out what what you 're watching even if there 's commercials you know . industrial designer: and now yeah marketing: okay . industrial designer: and now you can c look it over internet . but i still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities . user interface: i think i ha i agree . marketing: yeah 'cause , yeah , i just i do n't see the cross-over between computers and television . i mean i do see the cross-over in some sense , industrial designer: yeah , but it 's not happen yet . yeah . marketing: but but but but with the the remote is is used for television , okay . user interface: well for me project manager: well you have digital tv still already . user interface: yeah . marketing: so so if we make the cross-over and we 're gon na view television on computers then we 're then we 're losing the the necessity of the remote . s user interface: unless you have a project manager: well there there is a for example on digital tv systems you have you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: a a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can yeah , and there 's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live tv and things like that . they 're just features from the internet uh from computers are are coming into the tv sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext . marketing: okay . project manager: so now the things to think here are that that there 's gon na be more functionality , potentially that we can handle . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah but we we do n't we 're not aiming a command for that . that 's the thing . and all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and user interface: i think a lot of that 's proprietary anyways . you 're not gon na be able to , you , like command a tivo with our remote . i do n't think . project manager: mm . but still there there 's an opportunity . if if it 's , for example , a trainable one then we 're just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . industrial designer: yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so project manager: mm . okay . industrial designer: well i dunno . one way the other teletext was there but i guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs . user interface: i think if it 's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . just you know industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah i do n't i do n't see the logic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i i do n't see the logic in elimination of teletext , i just i i project manager: yeah , and neither do i in fact . marketing: but i 'm not a tech-mind either . i just do n't see the cross-over between computers and and and project manager: bu uh . marketing: 'cause we are designing something for a television , okay . industrial designer: project manager: i 'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wan na be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there 's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it does n't affect the price . user interface: right it 's just not industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um but i i think what they 're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we are selling it to an existing market . project manager: i dunno i 'm industrial designer: yeah but we 're not putting some there 's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext . marketing: that 's project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: that 's the problem . marketing: and and , yeah , and and we 're also marketing a product . it 's what i 'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product . project manager: mm . marketing: so so w we ca n't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing project manager: yeah . marketing: because all of a sudden we are gon na have cost overruns . so if we drop if we are gon na choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? project manager: hmm . so if we 're keeping it basic we 're loo loo what we 're looking to sell it basically is it 's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'cause we really do n't have anything else there , do we ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i do n't i do n't see it , and to me if i 'm gon na market a product for b for beauty for for design i 'm gon na i 'm gon na try to market it at a much higher price . i need to make it special with a high price tag . i do n't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i want i want to market it as exclusive . so i would market this product it at eighty-nine euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but i do n't think we have that flexibility . project manager: but i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard tv so the place uh remote the then the place we 're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant high-priced basic remote . does that make sense , huh ? marketing: no i no i i understand what you say , project manager: mm . marketing: but what i 'm what i 'm , okay we probably need to move along , project manager: yeah we probably should . marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product , project manager: we we 're doing alright for time . marketing: and if i 'm coming in with a with with twenty-five euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am i going to give these people for this ? project manager: yeah . marketing: so that 's just my question , but we can keep talking . project manager: okay . sorry that kinda cut into you there . industrial designer: no just i i would i would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe i 'll come up with more concrete ideas . right now it 's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um user interface: right . i 'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it 's just so confusing to do to use all these functions . where i think the largest portion of the market is just gon na you know they lost their tv remote , they need another one that 'll work with their tv . they want something that looks nice , that that that is n't gon na break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it 's it 's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that . project manager: mm . user interface: i think that 's gon na be where you 're gon na find the biggest , you know , market share . project manager: so we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . is that user interface: i think the more bells and whistles we add , it 's just gon na cut into our into our profits . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because i think as we as we add costs for things like uh for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , i think you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gon na use that ? project manager: mm . user interface: maybe five percent , you know , industrial designer: yeah mm . project manager: but we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this . user interface: and how much right . yeah okay . project manager: be a good idea . user interface: i 'm sorry . project manager: uh sorry , i did n't mean to cut in . marketing: yeah . user interface: sorry boss . project manager: i 'm not the boss . okay . marketing: oh p pedro , i just want to say quickly i i would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh . industrial designer: marketing: you know sell uh things come to my mind is uh uh something that 's uh um voice-activated . i know we 're getting into some , i hope , some big money on this thing , but project manager: i think that 's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah . marketing: is that for over here ? user interface: yeah . well it 's kinda both of us . marketing: okay , alright . project manager: is it ? user interface: us us user interface . project manager: okay . marketing: that 's industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause uh and i think of voice-activated i think of of how many times i 've i 've lost my my remote and i ca n't find it . so some way that i can i can find my remote by clapping my hands or something user interface: mm-hmm . i was thinking about that . then your lights would go off , though . project manager: mm . marketing: uh and and so so um industrial designer: marketing: but this 's just something . i 'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it 's like , what are we gon na put in ? what makes this thing attractive ? and it 's only for televisions . so we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their v_c_r_s , their d_v_d_s , their their televisions and we 're coming out with one remote for television only . and so to me we have to make this a really special product user interface: yeah . marketing: i i i do n't s i really have to say i do n't see the market niche for this product . at this price i do n't see it yet . i 'm i i go along with this , because this is what we 're given to try to market , but i i do n't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but we th that should be design . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should be the design basically . user interface: right . industrial designer: i think technology we 'd we we 're not in the price range to do it . we do n't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design . marketing: okay . have to do you have to do it in the box ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: okay well , so so that 's up to you then to to make this box in something that 's absolutely extraordinary . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: maybe make it in the form of a gun . we can sell it in united states . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: i have a question uh for you . does any of the um the features that pedro 's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? in terms of making it work or the cost of that or user interface: i do n't i think all these things are pretty standard . i think we 'll be okay . project manager: okay . 'kay . cheers . onto participant four . marketing: well you know for marketing f marketing for me is uh and uh how do i go here ? okay . user interface: mm you can just click . marketing: go go . user interface: no no no marketing: is that right ? user interface: you just get off that . you just click anywhere . marketing: ah-ha . yeah , what for me is it um i d i do n't know what i 'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when i wrote this , i do n't know what i 'm marketing . i just know that i i was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . and so the th the twenty-five euros that we 've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: that 's what we decided here . um so what i did is i i decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . so what we 've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . we 're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . so that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um so i would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . so i say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh innovation i think fits into what we 're talking about here with design . uh cutting edge technology , i do n't think we 're gon na have that , these were ideas i was putting together , um unless we come up with some new age product a as far as the casing is concerned . i i wan na make this thing something that i can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some i i talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . i do n't know . these are just thoughts . uh i wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we 're new , we 're aggressive , we 're competitive , we 're we 're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . so to me it 's about selling d uh our identity our corporate identity along with the product . um what i found is that the projected costs are competitive . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: uh we 're kind of in the middle of the market , but what i 'm seeing is that the market is ready for i i identified new technology , but again , because what i see is budget restrictions and limitations , i do n't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . if if we could have a technological something user interface: i have an idea . marketing: mm p please . user interface: and it 's kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it 's a common issue . project manager: mm . user interface: um what we can do is , well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . right ? marketing: solar . project manager: yeah . user interface: and s for some people yeah . well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? marketing: but solar user interface: like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you 're not using it , so you 'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we 'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . you never have to get go through the go through uh all these different batteries . and also you can i i think it 's a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design , but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . you know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself . marketing: blah , i like it . i like the idea , but we 're talking about in cost is gon na probably double . user interface: it w it would increase the cost . marketing: but boy , we can sell this thing , because there 's no batteries , it 's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form . user interface: and you could page the remote if you lose it . maybe there 's a button on the cradle . marketing: yep , that 's right . i really see project manager: now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ? marketing: but the cost i no no . no no , we have t we have to change the end cost . project manager: we we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh can we dl can we do that without uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ? marketing: there 's uh i mean i do n't see it anyway . yeah , that 's gon na be up to these guys . user interface: well marketing: i my reaction is no , but user interface: what i can do is i can d look into ho well pedro and i can look into how much this might increase our our costs project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gon na have on our on our final numbers . project manager: yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that 's gon na be marketing: well , see i i see i i 'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . you know , let 's let 's sell this wholesale for for fifty euros , sixty euros . let 's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the rolls royce of of remote controls . user interface: i i marketing: every home 's got to have it . if you do n't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? oh you 've got one of those , oh fantastic , i want one of those too . user interface: yeah . marketing: i just do n't have enough money right now . user interface: i just do n't know about that , because in order to do that in order to price it at that kind of level i think we 'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the d_v_d_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . which is a pretty basic function that w we 've opted out of . and additionally we 're m maybe not supporting teletext um project manager: nah , i think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext . marketing: user interface: but i do think there are some basic features that we do n't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have . marketing: yep , one one thing i do n't understand is h they 've they 've given us this package , okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . they say they say okay here you go . they gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: and and w it 's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . i do n't think it 's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . i do n't know what kind of role we have in this in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it 's like , okay , you have got your here 's our ideas , okay . project manager: mm . marketing: and then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but to me it 's it 's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca i i do not i do not see the market niche for the product that they 're handing f handing us right now . project manager: mm . user interface: i don i i d marketing: i do n't see it . user interface: i have to disagree though . i think our market niche is basically people who need who have lost their remote or uh who 've broken their remote and do n't wan na send back to the manufacturer , they just wan na run out to the store and get a remote , and then they 're gon na look on the shelf and they 're gon na see ours is the nicest looking remote . it does what they need . these are n't i i think that it project manager: and and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh for cutting in but , i th i think it 's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple tvs , yeah , 'cause it 's selling on its own . user interface: right . project manager: it 's not going to be specifically for hitachi tvs or or whatever . marketing: right . user interface: right . marketing: no i understand that . project manager: so technologically , if i understand it , uh tvs tv remote 's working exactly the same way as video remotes and d_v_d_ remotes . all you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code . marketing: project manager: so saying that it works with all tvs is equivalent to saying that it 'll work with d_v_d_s and other things . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: nope , they 've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions . project manager: oh okay okay . industrial designer: yeah y y you you would n't marketing: they 've identified this product limita project manager: we have done this . marketing: that 's why i say i do n't i do n't see the market niche for this . industrial designer: the interface will be different . project manager: i see . marketing: if we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for d_v_d_s , v_c_r_s and everything , then i can see the market niche , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but we we 're only identified as going for televisions without teletext . user interface: right . marketing: and it 's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that 's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable , user interface: well here 's project manager: and i i 'd marketing: because who wants just a television remote ? project manager: mm sorry . user interface: right . we he well here 's my thing about that . marketing: i do n't . user interface: if you 're in the market for this ultimate remote , you 're not gon na go for just a television remote . if it ca n't control if it ca n't control your your d_v_d_ player and a al if y if you ca n't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just you can throw all your other remotes away . i 'm not gon na buy a d seventy-five euro remote . marketing: that 's right . i i i have a tendency to agree with you . i really do . project manager: so we really ca n't chase that . marketing: that 's why i say i quest i q i question the marketability of the product . i really question where we create the demand . user interface: so i think what we project manager: we 're really looking for something basic . user interface: so that 's what i 'm saying project manager: the the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we 're we 're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we 're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where i 'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let 's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . we 're selling more than just the product . we 're trying to get mind-share about uh real reaction to to the people who are gon na buy consumer electronics . we want people to eventually say , oh that 's that 's real reaction that 's a good m make . it 's reliable . and and we 're gon na make it we 're gon na win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product industrial designer: project manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , and solid . so if we can make if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking i think that 's in itself an extremely big thing . user interface: mm-hmm . i think that 's big . marketing: w okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we 're going into an a a new market area . so we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da . industrial designer: good design . project manager: we only have a few minutes left . marketing: but what i 'm saying is right now we 're middle market . project manager: is twenty-five euros a mid-market price for a remote ? marketing: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah user interface: i think so , yeah . marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that 's a mid-market price . in a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen euro , project manager: okay . marketing: and that 's for the multi-functions , uh d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , uh catch-alls . and and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . so to me , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . we have to have something that will change people 's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and i do n't know what that is . it 's got ta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features . project manager: well i 'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that 's the way we really should play it . if we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: but we 're really doing that to sell the brand . yep we have five minutes left . uh rather th uh to to to sell for real reactions . marketing: or my d project manager: and i can communicate this to to the more senior uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . user interface: what about um the idea that i had with the cradle ? how do you feel about that ? project manager: well how does everybody feel ? user interface: or how does everybody feel ? marketing: i mean i i well we g we 're talking about the other end now . project manager: i i think marketing: i like it . user interface: no , but i that 's the thing i i do n't think it 's necessarily the other end . marketing: i like the idea , but we have t we have to find out project manager: the other the o the problem with that in my mind i just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would i wan na buy that ? and i think maybe not because i 've got a remote and i 'll take it to different chairs , i 'll take it to different user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: i w i do n't wan na go over somewhere and put it down . it i if it is gon na be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair , user interface: right . project manager: and that implies that there 's only one tv user . so it 's very good for some people but it 's not a like user interface: well it lasts it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you 're done with it you put it back in the cradle . project manager: but it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent . user interface: yeah project manager: you have to l sort of remember . user interface: well it mm-hmm . project manager: you have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: well . project manager: i d i d i d i think it it in my mind it does n't seem like something that oh i 'd really want uh because of that fact . marketing: mm . project manager: but i i do n't know , that 's just my opinion . marketing: well , i think again it 's it we have a cost issue here . you know if we 're gon na go in this direction , to me we 're going to the other side of the cost range . project manager: mm . marketing: are we gon na make this selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gon na go to the lower side of the range ? again i do n't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet . project manager: 'kay . marketing: i do n't see it yet . project manager: so what do we think maybe we should pedro , do you have any opinion on it ? industrial designer: uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good . marketing: w a question i have in in a 'cause i i i think i agree with you on , we got ta make it a box . the box is gon na sell it i think , the outside , the casing . project manager: really need to wrap up now . marketing: can can can we have multiple designs ? have a modern , have a traditional , have a you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . i do n't know what that creates cost , or user interface: well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . so industrial designer: marketing: yep one over another . yeah , okay , i hear that . industrial designer: yeah , complicated but user interface: um but what we could do is some kind of well i mean yeah we we need to , i mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that i think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . i think w what 's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel it has to feel good in your hand , project manager: yeah . user interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and i think it 's really important that it does n't look cheap . i think i think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . even though the cost may be low . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: what ab what ab what about a a remote that 's that does n't maybe look like a remote ? just an idea . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: just just okay 'cause i mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . they 're selling these things everywhere . maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that does n't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone . user interface: or what if it looks like a pen ? marketing: does n't matter , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'm just jus i talking about some something to make this thing unique . user interface: a pointer ? marketing: it that 's the thing , i 'm gon na keep thumping on . user interface: yeah . marketing: i 'll sell whatever you guys design . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: i do n't have a problem selling a product , that 's not the issue . i give you ideas , you guys create the product . once you have the finished product i 'll find a way to sell it . do n't worry about it . i just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings . user interface: so industrial designer: okay . user interface: just to touch on m my point one last time that i had brought up . um i really un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it 's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you ca n't lose it on your own , i think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . user interface: because i really think i in a certain sense it almost like for me i would want to have that just , because i know at the end of when i 'm done watching tv that when i 'm done , oh i better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . maybe th th th that 's just some people that like that . project manager: i mean there 's al there 's also remote controls i remember that that worked uh , this has n't been done in a while i think , but th as a as a watch . user interface: a lot of people marketing: no no . user interface: as a watch ? project manager: yeah , there is remote control watches um , user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: but i think they 're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now . industrial designer: yeah they are not simple . project manager: those things may have been inexpensive for all i know . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: one thing i just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gon na be someone who has lost or broken project manager: user interface: that 's what i was saying . marketing: we got ta stop ? project manager: got ta cut up . marketing: who 's lost or broken their their remote . so how many remotes do they wan na buy ? can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ? user interface: exactly . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ? user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: how does this happen ? project manager: the last remote you 'll ever buy . user interface: and also presumably they 've marketing: and and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you 'll ever need to buy . project manager: well if if we 're going down that then we can we do n't need to go the user interface: exactly . project manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make . user interface: yeah . project manager: whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that 's just done with mobile phones user interface: true . project manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there . user interface: right . yeah . the locator 'll definitely be more expensive . mm-hmm . project manager: um need to look into whether we can do that but uh i think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our internet . we really need to finish up here . but uh marketing: uh we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . project manager: yeah we have the the power-adaptor products . we sell power-adaptor products . so for example there 's nothing stopping us using that technology . marketing: it 's uh just it 's that i think it 's telling us to stop our meeting . project manager: yeah . marketing: so we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we 're talking about . project manager: yeah i think so , marketing: a charging system . project manager: without it being too in fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that 's already gon na be in place here . user interface: right . marketing: if if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics . user interface: right . project manager: okay . user interface: i think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery . project manager: yep . user interface: you know , something like that . project manager: 'kay . thanks guys . industrial designer: yep . marketing: no that 's not what i want , i want oh look it here .

marketing wanted the product to be exclusive , beautiful , attractive , and environmentally sensitive . it should be special in some way so that it could sell on its own . marketing also wanted to sell their corporate identity along with the product . however , the fact was that they could not use some cutting-edge technology due to the limitation of cost , so they had to aim at the exterior design .

what was discussed in the meeting ? </s> grad a: ok . we seem to be recording . professor g: alright ! grad a: so , sorry about not professor g: we 're not crashing . phd d: number four . grad a: not pre - doing everything . the lunch went a little later than i was expecting , chuck . phd e: hmm ? professor g: ok . phd b: chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ? grad a: yep . pretty much . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . does anybody have an agenda ? grad a: no . postdoc f: well , i 'm i sent a couple of items . they 're they 're sort of practical . professor g: i thought somebody had . postdoc f: i do n't know if you 're professor g: yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: if if that 's too practical for what we 're focused on . grad a: i mean , we do n't want anything too practical . professor g: yeah , we only want th useless things . grad a: yeah , that would be professor g: yeah . no , why do n't we talk about practical things ? postdoc f: ok . professor g: sure . postdoc f: well , um , i can give you an update on the transcription effort . professor g: great . postdoc f: uh , maybe raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: ok , transcription , uh , microphone issues postdoc f: and then maybe ask , th uh , these guys . the we have great great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . professor g: ok . grad a: well , we have steps forward . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , it 's a it 's a big improvement . phd c: i would prefer this . professor g: yes . yeah , well . ok . uh phd d: we talk about the the results of professor g: you have some yeah . grad a: i have a little bit of iram stuff professor g: ok . phd d: use grad a: but i 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: uh , bigram ? grad a: iram . phd d: iram . professor g: iram . grad a: iram , bigram , professor g: well , m maybe . phd d: bi - bigram . grad a: you know . professor g: yeah , let 's let 's see where we are at three - thirty . phd b: hmm . professor g: um phd b: since , uh since i have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? professor g: well phd c: which is ? grad a: what 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part . phd e: please specify . professor g: but phd b: well , uh , i guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i think that would be a good thing to start with . phd b: yeah . professor g: ok . um , and , um , the other thing , uh , which i 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting i had the other day when i was in spain with , uh , manolo pardo and javier , uh , ferreiros , who was here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . so , in what javier did before when they were doing , um h he was looking for , uh , speaker change points . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: um . as a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , uh , a putative , uh , speaker change point . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . and for broadcast news , that was fine . here obviously it 's not . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: uh - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: nnn , yeah . professor g: so then you 've got you already have the super - structure with gaussians and h - you know , simple h m ms and so forth . and you you might so there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because i i thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . phd d: yeah . professor g: but , uh , on the other hand i saw that the they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit because ultimately we 're gon na end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple hmm and you 're testing the hypothesis that , uh , there is a change . phd d: yeah . professor g: so so anyway , i just reporting that . phd d: ok . professor g: but , uh , uh so . yeah , why do n't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: yeah . do i i hear you you did n't phd c: speech - nonspeech ? ok . postdoc f: uh - huh . yeah . phd c: um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and what i did so far is i just used our old munich system , which is an hmm - ba based system with gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . and it was a system which used only one gaussian for silence and one gaussian for speech . and now i added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech . professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: and i did some training on on one dialogue , which was transcribed by yeah . we we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription . phd d: jose . phd c: adam , dave , and i , we did , for that dialogue and i trained it on that . and i did some pre - segmentations for for jane . and i 'm not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say . they they can use it or ? postdoc f: uh , they they think it 's a terrific improvement . and , um , it real it just makes a a world of difference . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: and , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: yeah . uh , yeah . that that was one one one thing , uh , why i added more mixtures for for the speech . so i saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and so i did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: and did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: i did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: right . phd c: and that was enough to to train the system . phd b: w what ? phd d: yeah . phd c: and so it it adapts , uh , on while running . so . phd b: what kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ? phd c: hopefully . phd d: ok . phd c: it 's just our our old munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd b: mm - hmm . phd c: and four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . so it 's twenty - four twenty - four features . phd b: mmm . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and you also provided me with several different versions , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: which i compared . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and so you change parameters . what do you wan na say something about the parameters that you change ? phd c: yeah . you can specify the minimum length of speech or and silence portions which you want . and so i did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , um yeah to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . so . grad a: right . so this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . yeah . grad a: but for overlap i imagine that does n't work at all , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: that 's it . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad a: but postdoc f: that 's true . but it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: um grad a: yep . postdoc f: just enormous , enormous savings . fantastic . professor g: that 's great . um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . so you have these twenty - four features . phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , a lot of them are spectral features . is there a a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ? phd c: no . grad a: yeah . it was is two . phd c: no . w w we originally we did that professor g: just phd c: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . it it works as well f with with without , uh , a lda or something . professor g: ok . ok . no , i was j curious . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i do n't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: yeah . phd d: right . professor g: but but yeah , it 's a postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . but then there 's another thing that also thilo 's involved with , which is , um ok , and and also da - dave gelbart . so there 's this this problem of and w and so we had this meeting . th - the also adam , before the the before you went away . uh we , um regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , um , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired i think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so we do n't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . we just have the the overlaps encoded in a simple bin . well , ok . so @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my my view and i think i mean , i had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . so , um , um , i spoke i had a meeting with dave gelbart on on and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . but , um , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . so , do you wan na say something about that ? phd c: yes . um , i talked with , uh , munich guys from from ludwi - ludwig maximilians university , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and they basically said they have they have , uh , a tool they developed themselves and they ca n't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: yeah . phd c: but , um , susanne bur - burger , who is at se cmu , he wa who was formally at in munich and w and is now at with cmu , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: excuse me . phd c: but it 's running under windows . postdoc f: under windows . phd c: so i 'm not sure if if if we can use it . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: she said she would give it to us . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: it would n't be a problem . and i 've got some some kind of manual down in my office . grad a: well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange windows machines to be available . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . we could uh , potentially so . grad a: so . postdoc f: i also wanted to be sure i mean , i 've i 've seen the this this is called praat , praat , which i guess means spee speech in dutch or something . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah , but then i 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . postdoc f: but in terms of it being windows versus professor g: yeah . grad a: no , no . praat is n't praat 's multi - platform . postdoc f: but i 'm just wondering , is ? phd c: no . no , praat yeah . yeah . postdoc f: oh ! i see . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: oh , i see . so praat may not be phd c: that 's not praat . it 's called `` trans transedit `` i think . postdoc f: it 's a different one . phd c: the the , uh the tool from from susanne . postdoc f: i see . oh , i see . ok . ok . alright . professor g: the other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh i mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: mmm , yeah . professor g: but , um , i think our outside sponsor is actually gon na kick in postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . so i do n't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . i think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . but as far a you know , uh , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . grad a: oh . phd b: but you s grad a: what our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . phd c: yeah . professor g: right . yeah . grad a: and and do what we can later to clean that up if we need to . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right . postdoc f: and and i was just thinking that , um , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: uh th - they 're making really quick progress . professor g: yeah . that 's great . postdoc f: and , um , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . and it 'll be i 'm i 'm i 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . professor g: that 's great . grad a: and did you , uh , forward morgan brian 's thing ? professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i sent it to , um who did i send that to ? i sent it to a list and i thought i sent it to the e to the local list . phd e: meeting recorder . grad a: oh , you did ? ok . so you probably did get that . postdoc f: you saw that ? so brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , uh that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gon na check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: i mean , basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . i mean , basically he 's he 's on it now . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: oh , that 's this is a new development . professor g: so so so this is so i it 'll happen . postdoc f: ok . super . super . ok . great . professor g: yeah . i mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: yeah . professor g: you know , who just does n't happen to be here anymore . someone else pays him . so phd b: but about the need for transcription , postdoc f: is n't that great ? phd b: i mean , do n't we did n't we previously decide that the ibm transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: so . yeah . postdoc f: yes . that 's true . phd b: so , i think having a good tool is worth something no matter what . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . s ok . that 's that 's a good point . grad a: yeah , and dave gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: good . grad a: and since he 's not here , i 'll repeat it to at least modify transcriber , which , if we do n't have something else that works , i think that 's a pretty good way of going . phd c: mmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we discussed on some methods to do it . my approach originally , and i 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because i was trying to display all the waveforms . but he pointed out that you do n't really have to . i think that 's a good point . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: that if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: yeah , exactly . and just keep those things separate . and and , um , dan ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: no . they can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: oh , yes , but well , uh , yes , but what i mean is that , uh , from the transcriber 's perspective , uh , those two functions are separate . and dan ellis 's hack handles the , um , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . grad a: but only to listen to , not to look at . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: um grad a: the waveform you 're looking at does n't change . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: that 's true . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: yeah , but that 's that 's ok , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . grad a: right . postdoc f: and then and then professor g: hmm . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: right . postdoc f: which then would also serve liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio . professor g: mm - hmm . have , uh , folks from nist been in contact with you ? postdoc f: not directly . i 'm trying to think if if i could have gotten it over a list . professor g: ok . postdoc f: i do n't i do n't think so . professor g: ok . well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in they seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . postdoc f: oh ! this was from before december . yeah . professor g: right . because they 're they 're presumably going to start recording next month . postdoc f: ok . ok . grad a: oh , we should definitely get with them then , professor g: so . grad a: and agree upon a format . though i do n't remember email on that . so was i not in the loop on that ? professor g: um . yeah , i do n't think i mailed anybody . i just think i told them to contact jane that , uh , if they had a grad a: oh , ok . postdoc f: that 's right . professor g: if , uh that that , uh , as the point person on it . grad a: yeah , i think that 's right . professor g: but grad a: just , uh professor g: so , yeah . maybe i 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to get that straight . postdoc f: ok . i 'm keeping the conventions absolutely as simple as possible . professor g: yeah . so is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at columbia , collections at at uw i mean dan dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . professor g: and collections at nist . so yeah . grad a: so . postdoc f: n there was also this , uh , email from dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: i do n't know if , uh , uh , we wan na , uh and dan gel - and dave gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . grad a: cross - correlation . professor g: oh , yeah . he was talking he was talking i mean , uh , we he had postdoc f: cross professor g: yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: cross professor g: i had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , uh , voice , uh you know , active miking , postdoc f: uh - huh . professor g: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . and and you basically compare the energy here to some function of all of the mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who who 's talking . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh and those those systems work very well , by the way , i mean , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: uh - huh . professor g: uh and , uh , those if boy , the guy i knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: hmm . professor g: so they 're it 's the the techniques work pretty well . postdoc f: fantastic . cuz there is one thing that we do n't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier . professor g: so . postdoc f: that that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: the the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do if that were available . professor g: yeah . so i think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: but . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh , and we also have these we have the advantage of having distant mikes too . so that , you cou yo grad a: yeah , although the the using the close - talking i think would be much better . would n't it ? postdoc f: yeah . professor g: um . i i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor g: i just it 'd be if i was actually working on it , i 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . i mean , the the the , uh but , uh , you certainly wan na use the close - talking , as a at least . grad a: right . professor g: i do n't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . what what are the different , uh , classes to to code , uh , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: um , to code d phd d: what you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: yeah . postdoc f: um , so at a meeting that was n't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and , um phd d: look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? the ? yeah ? yeah . postdoc f: yes , exactly . that has n't changed . so it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . and then below that there 're subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , you know , is it , uh , simply backchannel phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: or is it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . grad a: right . and i hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . phd d: huh . yeah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . well , one would phd d: we hope . grad a: yeah . who knows ? postdoc f: that 'd be that 'd be nice . i mean , i i i i 've phd b: so who 's gon na do that ? who 's gon na do forced alignment ? grad a: well , u uh , ibm was going to . um phd b: oh , ok . phd d: oh . grad a: and i imagine they still plan to but but , you know , i have n't spoken with them about that recently . phd b: ok . phd d: uh - huh . professor g: well , uh , my suggestion now is is on all of these things to , uh , contact brian . grad a: ok . i 'll do that . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: this is wonderful to have a direct contact like that . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: uh well , th lem me ask you this . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: it occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , um , by professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , uh , say professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . i could send brian the , um the transcript . i know these are er , uh , i could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: well , just talk to him about it . grad a: yep . postdoc f: good . professor g: i mean , you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: yeah ! professor g: uh , they and and , you know , the the organization always did wan na help us . postdoc f: super . super . professor g: it was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah , yeah . professor g: so , um , eh grad a: is he on the mailing list ? the meeting recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: oh ! grad a: we should add him . postdoc f: yeah . i i i do n't know for sure . professor g: yeah . phd e: did something happen , morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: add him . phd e: or ? professor g: no , i , eh , eh , p it it oc i h it 's yeah , something happened . i do n't know what . phd b: he asked for more work . phd e: huh . professor g: but he 's on it now . postdoc f: that would be like that 'd be like him . he 's great . professor g: right . so , uh , where are we ? maybe , uh , uh , brief well , let 's why do n't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: yeah . that 'd be great . professor g: that was that was a grad a: um , so one thing is that i did look on sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . but i think i need someone who knows more about mikes than i do , because i could n't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: oh , i probably would . i mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same . grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: so uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that . phd e: you could n't you could n't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: yep . when i looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . but my guess is that sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . and and so professor g: mm - hmm . well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: and there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: yeah . postdoc f: seems like there 'd be a ok . grad a: as i said , who knows ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: who who are we buying these from ? grad a: um , professor g: that 'd be grad a: i have it downstairs . i do n't remember off the top of my head . professor g: yeah . ok . yeah . we we can try and look at that together . grad a: and then , uh just in terms of how you wear them i mean , i had thought about this before . i mean , when when when you use a product like dragondictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . postdoc f: oh . grad a: but i felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gon na get people to really do it and maybe it was n't worth concentrating on . but professor g: well , i think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . that 's what i was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gon na get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . but i i think that it it does n't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: because , um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . grad a: oh . that 's true . professor g: i mean , i think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people are n't gon na be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: so this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , it 's gon na make you know , if if an - andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gon na be m wan na be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . grad a: right . professor g: so it 's it 's , uh , uh grad a: well , i 'll dig through the documentation to dragondictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: but it does happen . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , and any phd b: it 's interesting , uh , i talked to some ibm guys , uh , last january , i think , i was there . and so people who were working on the on their viavoice dictation product . professor g: yeah . phd b: and they said , uh , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . postdoc f: wow . phd b: so , anything to reduce breathing is is is a good thing . professor g: yeah . grad a: well , that 's the it seemed to me when i was using dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , uh an enormous amount . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: so you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it does n't the wind does n't hit the mike . phd b: right . mm - hmm . grad a: and then , uh everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . and then just close enough so that you get good volume . so you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: is uh - huh . professor g: i remember when i was when i i i i used , uh , um , a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , uh this was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . and , um , they were they were perturbed with me because i was breathing in instead of breathing out . and they had models for they they had markov models for br breathing out but they did n't have them for breathing in . phd d: yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: that 's interesting . well , what i wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly i mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . grad a: i mean , when when it 's on , you can see it . postdoc f: i do n't know if the if it 's professor g: i grad a: you can definitely see it . postdoc f: can you see the breathing ? grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: cuz i grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: oh . professor g: yeah . grad a: and so , you know , i 've i 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: i grad a: and the bar going up and down , and i 'm thinking , i could say something , but professor g: i mean , i think grad a: i do n't want to make people self - conscious . stop breathing ! professor g: it it 's going to be imperfect . postdoc f: yeah . uh - huh . professor g: you 're not gon na get it perfect . and you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: yeah . postdoc f: good . professor g: but not too far away . postdoc f: yeah , i professor g: and then , you know , i think there 's not much because you ca n't al you know , interfere w you ca n't fine tune the meeting that much , i think . grad a: right . phd d: yeah . professor g: it 's sort of postdoc f: that 's true . it just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . grad a: yep . and then also the position of the mike also . if it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . so so , like , yours is pretty far down below your mouth . yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: but mm - hmm . my my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: yeah . phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: i do n't know why that is . postdoc f: well , i mean , you yeah , of course . you 're you 're also uh , your volume is is greater . but but still , i mean , they they say grad a: i 've been eating a lot . postdoc f: i it makes their their job extremely easy . professor g: uh . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: and then there 's mass . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: anyway . postdoc f: i could say something about about the well , i do n't know what you wan na do . yeah . professor g: about what ? postdoc f: about the transcribers or anything or ? i do n't know . professor g: well , the other phd b: but , uh , just to to , um professor g: why do n't we do that ? phd b: one more remark , uh , concerning the sri recognizer . um . it is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so , grad a: so , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: mmm . phd b: um postdoc f: they are . phd b: ok . postdoc f: they 're putting eh , so in curly brackets they put `` inhale `` or `` breath `` . grad a: oh , great . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: it they and then in curly brackets they say `` laughter `` . now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , uh , m so they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: one is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . so , um , i i did s i did some double checking to look through i mean , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: it 's not so i do n't think it 's , um postdoc f: and that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying `` curly brackets laughing `` a after the unit . phd b: as as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words i think that 's sufficient , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: good . oh ! grad a: against they could do forced alignment . postdoc f: ok . phd b: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um you know , is pretty good . phd c: yeah . phd b: so as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: oh , i did n't know that . phd b: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models . postdoc f: ok . grad a: that would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: then phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and let me ask y and i got ta ask you one thing about that . grad a: when phd b: hmm . postdoc f: so , um , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . phd b: mm - hmm . right . postdoc f: but if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . does that matter ? phd d: yeah . phd b: well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . um , and that 's , uh i do n't think that we can do very well with that . grad a: right . phd b: so phd d: yeah . phd b: but , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: ok . grad a: so are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: uh is it ? phd d: huh . i i think it 's frequent in in the meeting . postdoc f: i think he 's right . yeah . phd b: we tried both . uh , currently , um , we use special words . there was a there 's actually a word for uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: mm - hmm . mouth stuff ? phd b: uh , mouth mouth stuff . and then laughter is a is a special word . grad a: how would we do that with the hybrid system ? professor g: same thing . grad a: so train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: same thing ? yeah . yeah . you ha oh . and each of these words has a dedicated phone . professor g: no grad a: oh , it does ? phd b: so the so the the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that . grad a: right . so in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone . professor g: yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: i mean , it 's it 's it 's always the same thing . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right ? i mean , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , uh different states . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then you would have three i mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: do whatever you want . phd b: and the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah , yeah . phd d: no . phd b: they actually are uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: to go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: and how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: it 's just a it 's just a word . grad a: it 's just a word in the language model . phd b: we train it like any other word . grad a: cool . phd b: yeah . we also tried , um , absorbing these uh , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , um phd d: yeah . phd b: yes . ok . anyway . we also tried absorbing that into the pause model i mean , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , um , it did n't work as well . so . grad a: huh . ok . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: can you hand me your digit form ? phd b: sorry . grad a: i just wan na mark that you did not read digits . professor g: ok . say hi for me . postdoc f: good . you you did get me to thinking about i i 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing i think it may be an individual thing . some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking . professor g: yeah . grad a: i was noticing that with dan in the one that we , uh we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: yeah . i think postdoc f: but i ca n't phd d: yeah . grad a: that th he has these little chuckles as he talks . postdoc f: yeah . ok . professor g: i 'm sure it 's very individual . and and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . we have this very , very tiny sample of of phd d: yeah . postdoc f: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: speech researchers ? professor g: uh , yeah . and yeah , r right . phd d: speech research . professor g: so , uh , who knows . uh yeah . why don why do n't we just since we 're on this vein , why do n't we just continue with , uh , what you were gon na say about the transcriptions postdoc f: ok . professor g: and ? postdoc f: um , um , the i i 'm really very for i 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . they are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um and i 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: cuz they 're gon na be transcribing it in a few days . postdoc f: no , they 're super . they 're the they very quick . phd e: ok . turn the mikes off and let 's talk . postdoc f: yeah , i know . i am i 'm serious . they 're just super . so i , um , e you know , i i brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because i think people can raise questions grad a: that 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and um , i trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . this also gives me a sense of you know , i can i can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . but the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . and then , um , i just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . they 're , um they 're trained in linguistics . grad a: good . oh , no . is that good or bad ? postdoc f: they got professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: well , they they 're very perce they 'll so one of them said `` well , you know , he really said `` n `` , not really `` and `` , phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: so what what should i do with that ? `` grad a: yeah . postdoc f: and i said , `` well for our purposes , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i do have a convention . if it 's an a noncanonical p `` that one , i think we you know , with eric 's work , i sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . but i told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like i said in one thing , professor g: ok . yes . postdoc f: and i gave my my example , like i said , `` microfon `` in instead of `` microphone `` . did n't bother i knew it when i said it . i remember s thinking `` oh , that 's not correctly pronounced `` . but it but i thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . grad a: you 'll self - repair . yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: but i have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native english american english speaker , you know that i did n't mean to say `` microfon . `` then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets `` pron error `` . and , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . but , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the `` nnn `` . `` he said `` nnn `` , not `` and `` . what shall i do with that ? `` i mean , they 're very perceptive . and and s several of them are trained in ipa . c they really could do phonetic transcription if if we wanted them to . professor g: mm - hmm . right . well well , you know , it might be something we 'd wan na do with some , uh , s small subset of the whole thing . grad a: hmm . where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: i think professor g: we certainly would n't wan na do it with everything . postdoc f: and i 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . i mean , if , uh so i i told them that , um , we do n't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: and i also m i think they know that the data p source is limited and i may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although i hope to . professor g: the other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . postdoc f: and oh , that 'd be so super . they would be so s so terrific . grad a: i mean , this was something that we were talking about . professor g: right ? grad a: we could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . right ? one for each participant . so they could by hand professor g: well , that 's one way to do it . grad a: yeah . professor g: but i 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , that 's right . professor g: right ? postdoc f: and with the right in interface professor g: given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: which we know from the steve 's experience with the switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . and and you know , it took them i do n't know how many months to do to get four hours . and so that has n't been really our focus . uh , we can consider it . but , i mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but anyway , i 'm i 'm open to c our consideration . postdoc f: that 'd be great . phd d: hmm . professor g: i i do n't wan na say that by fiat . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: i 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and , uh , uh , phd d: hmm . professor g: i i i think this year we we actually , uh , can do it . postdoc f: oh , wonderful . professor g: it 's a we have we have due to @ @ { comment } variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: so i do n't wan na hire a grad a: calendar year or ? professor g: uh , i mean , calendar year two thousand one . grad a: ok . professor g: yeah . so it 's uh , it 's we do n't wan na hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: full - time . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . but having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding . postdoc f: wonderful . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and then school will start in in the sixt on the sixteenth . professor g: so . postdoc f: some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point . professor g: yeah . phd e: are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: but some of them are . grad a: wow . postdoc f: yeah . well , why do i would n't say forty - hour weeks . no . but what i mean is oh , i should n't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . no . i th i i would say they 're probably they do n't have o they do n't have other things that are taking away their time . grad a: i do n't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription . phd e: hmm . postdoc f: but it 's you ca n't . professor g: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: no . you 're right . it 's i it would be too taxing . but , um , they 're putting in a lot of professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and and i checked them over . professor g: i postdoc f: i i i have n't checked them all , but just spot - checking . they 're fantastic . grad a: i think it would be professor g: i remember when we were transcribing berp , uh , uh , uh , ron kay , uh , volunteered to to do some of that . and , he was the first first stuff he did was transcribing chuck . and he 's saying `` you you know , i always thought chuck spoke really well . `` postdoc f: yeah . yeah . well , you know , and i also thought , y liz has this , eh , you know , and i do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . these people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: we 'd have to mark them . postdoc f: or whatever . so , um . professor g: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: i think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: yeah . grad a: cuz i 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . yeah . th - that 'd be i think that 's a a good idea . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: you know , there 's also , the e in my mind , i think a an - andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , um , we have n't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from ibm , and it may just be , you know , pristine . but on the other hand , given the lesser interface cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um professor g: it could be that they will uh theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . postdoc f: something like that . professor g: maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gon na do these alignments , which will also clear things up . postdoc f: that 's that 's true . al - although you have to s do n't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: well , tha that 's that 's debatable . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? i mean , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , uh , clean things up . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? so it it 's got its own objective criterion . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough i mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back back when chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . grad a: wrong . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . professor g: but it 's o k . you start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that does n't really look too bad . postdoc f: oh , excellent . ok . professor g: so so i think using a a good aligner , um , actually can can help a lot . um . but , uh , you know , they both help each other . if you have a if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . if you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so so postdoc f: excellent . i guess there 's another aspect , too , and i do n't know uh , this this is very possibly a different , uh , topic . but , uh , just let me say with reference to this idea of , um , higher - order organization within meetings . so like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um e i mean , i i i did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: already transcribed meeting . and i do n't know if , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wan na do with each meeting , sort of like a , um it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: i mean , i i i do n't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . i do n't know i if that 's something that i should do when i look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: but this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . ok . professor g: yeah . meaning really is n't my thing . um grad a: i think it just whoever is interested can do that . i mean , so if someone wants to use that data postdoc f: ok . professor g: we 're running a little short here . postdoc f: that 's fine . professor g: we , uh , uh , cou trying to postdoc f: i 'm finished . professor g: eh , was p well , you know , the thing i 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: oh , yeah . professor g: and and i have n't heard , uh , from jose yet . postdoc f: oh , yes . phd d: ok . what do you want ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so grad a: we could skip the digits . professor g: uh grad a: we do n't have to read digits each time . professor g: uh i i i think it you know , another another bunch of digits . more data is good . grad a: ok . phd d: yeah . sure . professor g: so so i 'd like to do that . but i think , do you , maybe , eh ? did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: yeah . it 's it 's prepared . professor g: or what was that ? yeah . postdoc f: oh , k sorry . professor g: uh , how long a ? phd d: i i think it 's it 's fast , because , uh , i have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . eh , um , eh , in the in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the by the , um , variance . um , i th i professor g: yeah . phd d: the other , uh the the last w uh , meeting eh , i do n't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it does n't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: yes . right . phd d: and it was a problem , uh , with the scale . grad a: with what ? phd d: eh , the scale . postdoc f: scale . grad a: scale . phd d: eh , and i i change the scale and we can see the the variance . professor g: ok . but the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: right ? phd d: the distribution the distribution is is similar . professor g: ok . so that 's that 's that 's enough then . ok . phd d: yeah . professor g: no , i mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: so , i i think we have to start uh , i mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh what we said before is that , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: um , it looks like , at least that you have n't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: um , i i 'm i 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . these things l @ @ seems like there should be , phd d: yeah . professor g: but but you do n't want to keep , uh keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . but , i mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: yeah . professor g: so which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . um but , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in spain , phd d: yeah . professor g: which is to say , do n't worry so much about the , uh , features . phd d: yeah . professor g: that is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling . phd d: yeah . professor g: you know , have a have a couple markov models and and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . phd d: hmm . professor g: and let the , uh , uh , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . phd d: yeah . professor g: i i , um , i think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . i think that you 'd end up with a better system overall . phd d: yeah . professor g: but given the limitation in time and given the fact that javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: maybe that 's a better place to go . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so . phd d: i i i think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: yeah . phd d: and wh what nnn , how far is professor g: maybe . yeah . phd d: and , i i have prepared the the pitch tracker now . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: and i hope the the next week i will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . professor g: i see . phd d: and , nnn , nnn professor g: ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ? phd c: no . no . phd d: no . professor g: oh . maybe m you could , you kn uh show thilo that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . sure . phd d: yeah . professor g: cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . phd d: yeah . professor g: but if you included , uh , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: ok . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah , but i 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector i i i used up to now , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: that 's right . but i think javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . phd d: ah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think javier 's might be able to . phd c: so . professor g: n n grad a: it does n't have the same gaus - uh , h m m modeling , phd c: yeah . grad a: which is i think a drawback . phd c: ok . grad a: but , uh professor g: well , it 's sort of has a simple one . phd d: mmm , yeah . grad a: does it ? professor g: right ? it 's it 's just it 's just a is n't it just a gaussian phd d: yeah . professor g: for each ? grad a: yeah . and then he ch you choose optimal splitting . phd d: hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . oh , it does n't have it does n't have any temporal , uh ? grad a: maybe i 'm misremembering , but i did not think it had a markov professor g: i thought it yeah . i gues i guess i do n't remember either . uh . it 's been a while . phd c: yeah . uh , i could have a look at it . phd d: javier professor g: uh . phd c: so . phd d: you mean ja - eh , eh , javier program ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: no , javier di does n't worked with , uh , a markov grad a: yeah , i did n't think so . phd d: he on only train professor g: oh , ok . so he 's just he just computes a gaussian over potential grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . it was only gaussian . professor g: oh , i see . i see . grad a: and so i i think it would work fine for detecting overlap . phd d: this is the idea . professor g: and and grad a: it 's just , uh , that i it he has the two - pass issue that what he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . and that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . phd c: ok . grad a: and so those are the putative places where he tries . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . ok . grad a: and right now he 's doing that with silence and that does n't work with the meeting recorder . so if we used another method to get the first pass , i think it would probably work . phd c: yeah . yeah . sure . yeah . yeah , ok . grad a: it 's a good method . as long as the len as long the segments are long enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: that 's the other problem . phd c: so professor g: o - k ok . so let me go back to what you had , though . phd c: yeah . professor g: um . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: the other thing one could do is could n't i mean , it 's so you have two categories phd c: yeah . professor g: and you have markov models for each . could n't you have a third category ? so you have , uh you have , uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: he has this on his board actually . do n't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: right ? and then you have a markov model for each ? phd c: um i 'm not sure . i i thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . but it 's not too easy , i think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system i have now . but it it it could be possible , i think , professor g: i see . i see . phd c: in principle . professor g: yeah , i mean , i this is all pretty gross . phd d: yeah . professor g: i mean , the th the reason why , uh , i was suggesting originally that we look at features is because i thought , well , we 're doing something we have n't done before , phd c: yeah . professor g: we should at least look at the space and understand phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: it seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: i had the impression . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . grad a: right . phd c: yeah . professor g: so those are all things that should be there . phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: so far , um , uh , jose has has been by the way , i was told i should be calling you pepe , but phd d: yeah . professor g: by your friends , but anyway , phd d: yeah . professor g: um , uh , the has has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then there 's , you know is it energy ? is it log energy ? is it lpc residual energy ? is it is it is it , uh , delta of those things ? uh , what is it no obviously , just a simple number absolute number is n't gon na work . so it should be with compared to what ? should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: yeah . professor g: or , you know , how b short should they be ? so , phd d: hmm . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . phd d: yeah . professor g: so i i still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . phd d: yeah . to overrule , yeah . professor g: so pitch - related and harmonic - related , i 'm i 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: but it seems like if we just wan na get something to work , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: that , uh , their suggestion of of th - they were suggesting going to markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what javier did . and one of those things , looking at the statistical component , phd d: one . phd c: yeah . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , um eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: but , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the javier software ? eh , i mean , the , uh the , uh the bic criterion , the the t to train the the gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . i mean , eh , i i i think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step i mean , the the classifier what were the classifier from javier or classifier from thilo ? w what happen with the second step ? i i mean , what what happen with the , eh the , uh , clu the , uh the clu the clustering process ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: using the the gaussian . grad a: you mean javier 's ? phd d: yeah . grad a: what do you mean ? phd d: i i mean , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step does n't work well , eh , we have another problem . grad a: i yeah . i had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: n grad a: and it worked pretty well , but i have n't worked with it a lot . so what i d i d i took a hand - segmented sample phd d: nnn , yeah . grad a: and i added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: yeah . grad a: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries . phd d: oh . yeah . but is is if grad a: but this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: but it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: right . so if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to javier 's and it does n't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: uh yeah . the n n yeah . no . the demonstration by hand . segmentation by hand i i i think is the fast experiment . grad a: yeah . i think that 's probably worthwhile doing . phd d: uh , we can prove that the professor g: uh - huh . grad a: whether it 'll work or not . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and gaussian grad a: yeah . professor g: yeah . grad a: yep . y do you know where his software is ? have you used it at all ? phd d: i yeah have . i have . grad a: ok . phd d: grad a: so . i i have as well , so if you need need help let me know . phd d: ok . professor g: let 's read some digits . grad a: ok . uuh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we are { disfmarker }

the group talked about the ongoing transcription effort and issues related to the transcriber tool , which despite its limitations for capturing tight time markings for overlapping speech , will continue to remain in use . speaker mn014 explained his efforts to pre-segment the signal into speech and non-speech portions for facilitating transcriptions . recording equipment and procedures were discussed , with a focus on audible breathing and the need for standards in microphone wear and use .

what did speaker c say about detecting speech/non-speech options ? </s> grad a: ok . we seem to be recording . professor g: alright ! grad a: so , sorry about not professor g: we 're not crashing . phd d: number four . grad a: not pre - doing everything . the lunch went a little later than i was expecting , chuck . phd e: hmm ? professor g: ok . phd b: chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ? grad a: yep . pretty much . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . does anybody have an agenda ? grad a: no . postdoc f: well , i 'm i sent a couple of items . they 're they 're sort of practical . professor g: i thought somebody had . postdoc f: i do n't know if you 're professor g: yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: if if that 's too practical for what we 're focused on . grad a: i mean , we do n't want anything too practical . professor g: yeah , we only want th useless things . grad a: yeah , that would be professor g: yeah . no , why do n't we talk about practical things ? postdoc f: ok . professor g: sure . postdoc f: well , um , i can give you an update on the transcription effort . professor g: great . postdoc f: uh , maybe raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: ok , transcription , uh , microphone issues postdoc f: and then maybe ask , th uh , these guys . the we have great great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . professor g: ok . grad a: well , we have steps forward . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , it 's a it 's a big improvement . phd c: i would prefer this . professor g: yes . yeah , well . ok . uh phd d: we talk about the the results of professor g: you have some yeah . grad a: i have a little bit of iram stuff professor g: ok . phd d: use grad a: but i 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: uh , bigram ? grad a: iram . phd d: iram . professor g: iram . grad a: iram , bigram , professor g: well , m maybe . phd d: bi - bigram . grad a: you know . professor g: yeah , let 's let 's see where we are at three - thirty . phd b: hmm . professor g: um phd b: since , uh since i have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? professor g: well phd c: which is ? grad a: what 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part . phd e: please specify . professor g: but phd b: well , uh , i guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i think that would be a good thing to start with . phd b: yeah . professor g: ok . um , and , um , the other thing , uh , which i 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting i had the other day when i was in spain with , uh , manolo pardo and javier , uh , ferreiros , who was here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . so , in what javier did before when they were doing , um h he was looking for , uh , speaker change points . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: um . as a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , uh , a putative , uh , speaker change point . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . and for broadcast news , that was fine . here obviously it 's not . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: uh - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: nnn , yeah . professor g: so then you 've got you already have the super - structure with gaussians and h - you know , simple h m ms and so forth . and you you might so there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because i i thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . phd d: yeah . professor g: but , uh , on the other hand i saw that the they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit because ultimately we 're gon na end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple hmm and you 're testing the hypothesis that , uh , there is a change . phd d: yeah . professor g: so so anyway , i just reporting that . phd d: ok . professor g: but , uh , uh so . yeah , why do n't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: yeah . do i i hear you you did n't phd c: speech - nonspeech ? ok . postdoc f: uh - huh . yeah . phd c: um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and what i did so far is i just used our old munich system , which is an hmm - ba based system with gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . and it was a system which used only one gaussian for silence and one gaussian for speech . and now i added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech . professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: and i did some training on on one dialogue , which was transcribed by yeah . we we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription . phd d: jose . phd c: adam , dave , and i , we did , for that dialogue and i trained it on that . and i did some pre - segmentations for for jane . and i 'm not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say . they they can use it or ? postdoc f: uh , they they think it 's a terrific improvement . and , um , it real it just makes a a world of difference . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: and , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: yeah . uh , yeah . that that was one one one thing , uh , why i added more mixtures for for the speech . so i saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and so i did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: and did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: i did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: right . phd c: and that was enough to to train the system . phd b: w what ? phd d: yeah . phd c: and so it it adapts , uh , on while running . so . phd b: what kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ? phd c: hopefully . phd d: ok . phd c: it 's just our our old munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd b: mm - hmm . phd c: and four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . so it 's twenty - four twenty - four features . phd b: mmm . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and you also provided me with several different versions , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: which i compared . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and so you change parameters . what do you wan na say something about the parameters that you change ? phd c: yeah . you can specify the minimum length of speech or and silence portions which you want . and so i did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , um yeah to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . so . grad a: right . so this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . yeah . grad a: but for overlap i imagine that does n't work at all , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: that 's it . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad a: but postdoc f: that 's true . but it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: um grad a: yep . postdoc f: just enormous , enormous savings . fantastic . professor g: that 's great . um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . so you have these twenty - four features . phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , a lot of them are spectral features . is there a a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ? phd c: no . grad a: yeah . it was is two . phd c: no . w w we originally we did that professor g: just phd c: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . it it works as well f with with without , uh , a lda or something . professor g: ok . ok . no , i was j curious . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i do n't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: yeah . phd d: right . professor g: but but yeah , it 's a postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . but then there 's another thing that also thilo 's involved with , which is , um ok , and and also da - dave gelbart . so there 's this this problem of and w and so we had this meeting . th - the also adam , before the the before you went away . uh we , um regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , um , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired i think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so we do n't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . we just have the the overlaps encoded in a simple bin . well , ok . so @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my my view and i think i mean , i had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . so , um , um , i spoke i had a meeting with dave gelbart on on and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . but , um , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . so , do you wan na say something about that ? phd c: yes . um , i talked with , uh , munich guys from from ludwi - ludwig maximilians university , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and they basically said they have they have , uh , a tool they developed themselves and they ca n't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: yeah . phd c: but , um , susanne bur - burger , who is at se cmu , he wa who was formally at in munich and w and is now at with cmu , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: excuse me . phd c: but it 's running under windows . postdoc f: under windows . phd c: so i 'm not sure if if if we can use it . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: she said she would give it to us . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: it would n't be a problem . and i 've got some some kind of manual down in my office . grad a: well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange windows machines to be available . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . we could uh , potentially so . grad a: so . postdoc f: i also wanted to be sure i mean , i 've i 've seen the this this is called praat , praat , which i guess means spee speech in dutch or something . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah , but then i 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . postdoc f: but in terms of it being windows versus professor g: yeah . grad a: no , no . praat is n't praat 's multi - platform . postdoc f: but i 'm just wondering , is ? phd c: no . no , praat yeah . yeah . postdoc f: oh ! i see . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: oh , i see . so praat may not be phd c: that 's not praat . it 's called `` trans transedit `` i think . postdoc f: it 's a different one . phd c: the the , uh the tool from from susanne . postdoc f: i see . oh , i see . ok . ok . alright . professor g: the other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh i mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: mmm , yeah . professor g: but , um , i think our outside sponsor is actually gon na kick in postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . so i do n't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . i think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . but as far a you know , uh , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . grad a: oh . phd b: but you s grad a: what our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . phd c: yeah . professor g: right . yeah . grad a: and and do what we can later to clean that up if we need to . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right . postdoc f: and and i was just thinking that , um , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: uh th - they 're making really quick progress . professor g: yeah . that 's great . postdoc f: and , um , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . and it 'll be i 'm i 'm i 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . professor g: that 's great . grad a: and did you , uh , forward morgan brian 's thing ? professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i sent it to , um who did i send that to ? i sent it to a list and i thought i sent it to the e to the local list . phd e: meeting recorder . grad a: oh , you did ? ok . so you probably did get that . postdoc f: you saw that ? so brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , uh that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gon na check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: i mean , basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . i mean , basically he 's he 's on it now . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: oh , that 's this is a new development . professor g: so so so this is so i it 'll happen . postdoc f: ok . super . super . ok . great . professor g: yeah . i mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: yeah . professor g: you know , who just does n't happen to be here anymore . someone else pays him . so phd b: but about the need for transcription , postdoc f: is n't that great ? phd b: i mean , do n't we did n't we previously decide that the ibm transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: so . yeah . postdoc f: yes . that 's true . phd b: so , i think having a good tool is worth something no matter what . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . s ok . that 's that 's a good point . grad a: yeah , and dave gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: good . grad a: and since he 's not here , i 'll repeat it to at least modify transcriber , which , if we do n't have something else that works , i think that 's a pretty good way of going . phd c: mmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we discussed on some methods to do it . my approach originally , and i 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because i was trying to display all the waveforms . but he pointed out that you do n't really have to . i think that 's a good point . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: that if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: yeah , exactly . and just keep those things separate . and and , um , dan ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: no . they can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: oh , yes , but well , uh , yes , but what i mean is that , uh , from the transcriber 's perspective , uh , those two functions are separate . and dan ellis 's hack handles the , um , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . grad a: but only to listen to , not to look at . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: um grad a: the waveform you 're looking at does n't change . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: that 's true . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: yeah , but that 's that 's ok , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . grad a: right . postdoc f: and then and then professor g: hmm . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: right . postdoc f: which then would also serve liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio . professor g: mm - hmm . have , uh , folks from nist been in contact with you ? postdoc f: not directly . i 'm trying to think if if i could have gotten it over a list . professor g: ok . postdoc f: i do n't i do n't think so . professor g: ok . well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in they seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . postdoc f: oh ! this was from before december . yeah . professor g: right . because they 're they 're presumably going to start recording next month . postdoc f: ok . ok . grad a: oh , we should definitely get with them then , professor g: so . grad a: and agree upon a format . though i do n't remember email on that . so was i not in the loop on that ? professor g: um . yeah , i do n't think i mailed anybody . i just think i told them to contact jane that , uh , if they had a grad a: oh , ok . postdoc f: that 's right . professor g: if , uh that that , uh , as the point person on it . grad a: yeah , i think that 's right . professor g: but grad a: just , uh professor g: so , yeah . maybe i 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to get that straight . postdoc f: ok . i 'm keeping the conventions absolutely as simple as possible . professor g: yeah . so is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at columbia , collections at at uw i mean dan dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . professor g: and collections at nist . so yeah . grad a: so . postdoc f: n there was also this , uh , email from dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: i do n't know if , uh , uh , we wan na , uh and dan gel - and dave gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . grad a: cross - correlation . professor g: oh , yeah . he was talking he was talking i mean , uh , we he had postdoc f: cross professor g: yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: cross professor g: i had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , uh , voice , uh you know , active miking , postdoc f: uh - huh . professor g: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . and and you basically compare the energy here to some function of all of the mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who who 's talking . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh and those those systems work very well , by the way , i mean , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: uh - huh . professor g: uh and , uh , those if boy , the guy i knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: hmm . professor g: so they 're it 's the the techniques work pretty well . postdoc f: fantastic . cuz there is one thing that we do n't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier . professor g: so . postdoc f: that that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: the the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do if that were available . professor g: yeah . so i think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: but . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh , and we also have these we have the advantage of having distant mikes too . so that , you cou yo grad a: yeah , although the the using the close - talking i think would be much better . would n't it ? postdoc f: yeah . professor g: um . i i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor g: i just it 'd be if i was actually working on it , i 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . i mean , the the the , uh but , uh , you certainly wan na use the close - talking , as a at least . grad a: right . professor g: i do n't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . what what are the different , uh , classes to to code , uh , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: um , to code d phd d: what you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: yeah . postdoc f: um , so at a meeting that was n't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and , um phd d: look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? the ? yeah ? yeah . postdoc f: yes , exactly . that has n't changed . so it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . and then below that there 're subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , you know , is it , uh , simply backchannel phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: or is it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . grad a: right . and i hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . phd d: huh . yeah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . well , one would phd d: we hope . grad a: yeah . who knows ? postdoc f: that 'd be that 'd be nice . i mean , i i i i 've phd b: so who 's gon na do that ? who 's gon na do forced alignment ? grad a: well , u uh , ibm was going to . um phd b: oh , ok . phd d: oh . grad a: and i imagine they still plan to but but , you know , i have n't spoken with them about that recently . phd b: ok . phd d: uh - huh . professor g: well , uh , my suggestion now is is on all of these things to , uh , contact brian . grad a: ok . i 'll do that . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: this is wonderful to have a direct contact like that . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: uh well , th lem me ask you this . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: it occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , um , by professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , uh , say professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . i could send brian the , um the transcript . i know these are er , uh , i could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: well , just talk to him about it . grad a: yep . postdoc f: good . professor g: i mean , you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: yeah ! professor g: uh , they and and , you know , the the organization always did wan na help us . postdoc f: super . super . professor g: it was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah , yeah . professor g: so , um , eh grad a: is he on the mailing list ? the meeting recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: oh ! grad a: we should add him . postdoc f: yeah . i i i do n't know for sure . professor g: yeah . phd e: did something happen , morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: add him . phd e: or ? professor g: no , i , eh , eh , p it it oc i h it 's yeah , something happened . i do n't know what . phd b: he asked for more work . phd e: huh . professor g: but he 's on it now . postdoc f: that would be like that 'd be like him . he 's great . professor g: right . so , uh , where are we ? maybe , uh , uh , brief well , let 's why do n't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: yeah . that 'd be great . professor g: that was that was a grad a: um , so one thing is that i did look on sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . but i think i need someone who knows more about mikes than i do , because i could n't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: oh , i probably would . i mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same . grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: so uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that . phd e: you could n't you could n't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: yep . when i looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . but my guess is that sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . and and so professor g: mm - hmm . well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: and there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: yeah . postdoc f: seems like there 'd be a ok . grad a: as i said , who knows ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: who who are we buying these from ? grad a: um , professor g: that 'd be grad a: i have it downstairs . i do n't remember off the top of my head . professor g: yeah . ok . yeah . we we can try and look at that together . grad a: and then , uh just in terms of how you wear them i mean , i had thought about this before . i mean , when when when you use a product like dragondictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . postdoc f: oh . grad a: but i felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gon na get people to really do it and maybe it was n't worth concentrating on . but professor g: well , i think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . that 's what i was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gon na get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . but i i think that it it does n't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: because , um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . grad a: oh . that 's true . professor g: i mean , i think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people are n't gon na be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: so this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , it 's gon na make you know , if if an - andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gon na be m wan na be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . grad a: right . professor g: so it 's it 's , uh , uh grad a: well , i 'll dig through the documentation to dragondictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: but it does happen . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , and any phd b: it 's interesting , uh , i talked to some ibm guys , uh , last january , i think , i was there . and so people who were working on the on their viavoice dictation product . professor g: yeah . phd b: and they said , uh , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . postdoc f: wow . phd b: so , anything to reduce breathing is is is a good thing . professor g: yeah . grad a: well , that 's the it seemed to me when i was using dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , uh an enormous amount . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: so you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it does n't the wind does n't hit the mike . phd b: right . mm - hmm . grad a: and then , uh everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . and then just close enough so that you get good volume . so you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: is uh - huh . professor g: i remember when i was when i i i i used , uh , um , a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , uh this was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . and , um , they were they were perturbed with me because i was breathing in instead of breathing out . and they had models for they they had markov models for br breathing out but they did n't have them for breathing in . phd d: yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: that 's interesting . well , what i wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly i mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . grad a: i mean , when when it 's on , you can see it . postdoc f: i do n't know if the if it 's professor g: i grad a: you can definitely see it . postdoc f: can you see the breathing ? grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: cuz i grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: oh . professor g: yeah . grad a: and so , you know , i 've i 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: i grad a: and the bar going up and down , and i 'm thinking , i could say something , but professor g: i mean , i think grad a: i do n't want to make people self - conscious . stop breathing ! professor g: it it 's going to be imperfect . postdoc f: yeah . uh - huh . professor g: you 're not gon na get it perfect . and you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: yeah . postdoc f: good . professor g: but not too far away . postdoc f: yeah , i professor g: and then , you know , i think there 's not much because you ca n't al you know , interfere w you ca n't fine tune the meeting that much , i think . grad a: right . phd d: yeah . professor g: it 's sort of postdoc f: that 's true . it just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . grad a: yep . and then also the position of the mike also . if it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . so so , like , yours is pretty far down below your mouth . yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: but mm - hmm . my my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: yeah . phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: i do n't know why that is . postdoc f: well , i mean , you yeah , of course . you 're you 're also uh , your volume is is greater . but but still , i mean , they they say grad a: i 've been eating a lot . postdoc f: i it makes their their job extremely easy . professor g: uh . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: and then there 's mass . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: anyway . postdoc f: i could say something about about the well , i do n't know what you wan na do . yeah . professor g: about what ? postdoc f: about the transcribers or anything or ? i do n't know . professor g: well , the other phd b: but , uh , just to to , um professor g: why do n't we do that ? phd b: one more remark , uh , concerning the sri recognizer . um . it is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so , grad a: so , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: mmm . phd b: um postdoc f: they are . phd b: ok . postdoc f: they 're putting eh , so in curly brackets they put `` inhale `` or `` breath `` . grad a: oh , great . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: it they and then in curly brackets they say `` laughter `` . now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , uh , m so they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: one is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . so , um , i i did s i did some double checking to look through i mean , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: it 's not so i do n't think it 's , um postdoc f: and that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying `` curly brackets laughing `` a after the unit . phd b: as as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words i think that 's sufficient , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: good . oh ! grad a: against they could do forced alignment . postdoc f: ok . phd b: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um you know , is pretty good . phd c: yeah . phd b: so as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: oh , i did n't know that . phd b: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models . postdoc f: ok . grad a: that would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: then phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and let me ask y and i got ta ask you one thing about that . grad a: when phd b: hmm . postdoc f: so , um , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . phd b: mm - hmm . right . postdoc f: but if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . does that matter ? phd d: yeah . phd b: well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . um , and that 's , uh i do n't think that we can do very well with that . grad a: right . phd b: so phd d: yeah . phd b: but , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: ok . grad a: so are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: uh is it ? phd d: huh . i i think it 's frequent in in the meeting . postdoc f: i think he 's right . yeah . phd b: we tried both . uh , currently , um , we use special words . there was a there 's actually a word for uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: mm - hmm . mouth stuff ? phd b: uh , mouth mouth stuff . and then laughter is a is a special word . grad a: how would we do that with the hybrid system ? professor g: same thing . grad a: so train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: same thing ? yeah . yeah . you ha oh . and each of these words has a dedicated phone . professor g: no grad a: oh , it does ? phd b: so the so the the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that . grad a: right . so in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone . professor g: yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: i mean , it 's it 's it 's always the same thing . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right ? i mean , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , uh different states . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then you would have three i mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: do whatever you want . phd b: and the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah , yeah . phd d: no . phd b: they actually are uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: to go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: and how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: it 's just a it 's just a word . grad a: it 's just a word in the language model . phd b: we train it like any other word . grad a: cool . phd b: yeah . we also tried , um , absorbing these uh , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , um phd d: yeah . phd b: yes . ok . anyway . we also tried absorbing that into the pause model i mean , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , um , it did n't work as well . so . grad a: huh . ok . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: can you hand me your digit form ? phd b: sorry . grad a: i just wan na mark that you did not read digits . professor g: ok . say hi for me . postdoc f: good . you you did get me to thinking about i i 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing i think it may be an individual thing . some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking . professor g: yeah . grad a: i was noticing that with dan in the one that we , uh we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: yeah . i think postdoc f: but i ca n't phd d: yeah . grad a: that th he has these little chuckles as he talks . postdoc f: yeah . ok . professor g: i 'm sure it 's very individual . and and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . we have this very , very tiny sample of of phd d: yeah . postdoc f: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: speech researchers ? professor g: uh , yeah . and yeah , r right . phd d: speech research . professor g: so , uh , who knows . uh yeah . why don why do n't we just since we 're on this vein , why do n't we just continue with , uh , what you were gon na say about the transcriptions postdoc f: ok . professor g: and ? postdoc f: um , um , the i i 'm really very for i 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . they are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um and i 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: cuz they 're gon na be transcribing it in a few days . postdoc f: no , they 're super . they 're the they very quick . phd e: ok . turn the mikes off and let 's talk . postdoc f: yeah , i know . i am i 'm serious . they 're just super . so i , um , e you know , i i brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because i think people can raise questions grad a: that 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and um , i trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . this also gives me a sense of you know , i can i can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . but the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . and then , um , i just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . they 're , um they 're trained in linguistics . grad a: good . oh , no . is that good or bad ? postdoc f: they got professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: well , they they 're very perce they 'll so one of them said `` well , you know , he really said `` n `` , not really `` and `` , phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: so what what should i do with that ? `` grad a: yeah . postdoc f: and i said , `` well for our purposes , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i do have a convention . if it 's an a noncanonical p `` that one , i think we you know , with eric 's work , i sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . but i told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like i said in one thing , professor g: ok . yes . postdoc f: and i gave my my example , like i said , `` microfon `` in instead of `` microphone `` . did n't bother i knew it when i said it . i remember s thinking `` oh , that 's not correctly pronounced `` . but it but i thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . grad a: you 'll self - repair . yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: but i have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native english american english speaker , you know that i did n't mean to say `` microfon . `` then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets `` pron error `` . and , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . but , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the `` nnn `` . `` he said `` nnn `` , not `` and `` . what shall i do with that ? `` i mean , they 're very perceptive . and and s several of them are trained in ipa . c they really could do phonetic transcription if if we wanted them to . professor g: mm - hmm . right . well well , you know , it might be something we 'd wan na do with some , uh , s small subset of the whole thing . grad a: hmm . where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: i think professor g: we certainly would n't wan na do it with everything . postdoc f: and i 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . i mean , if , uh so i i told them that , um , we do n't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: and i also m i think they know that the data p source is limited and i may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although i hope to . professor g: the other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . postdoc f: and oh , that 'd be so super . they would be so s so terrific . grad a: i mean , this was something that we were talking about . professor g: right ? grad a: we could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . right ? one for each participant . so they could by hand professor g: well , that 's one way to do it . grad a: yeah . professor g: but i 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , that 's right . professor g: right ? postdoc f: and with the right in interface professor g: given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: which we know from the steve 's experience with the switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . and and you know , it took them i do n't know how many months to do to get four hours . and so that has n't been really our focus . uh , we can consider it . but , i mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but anyway , i 'm i 'm open to c our consideration . postdoc f: that 'd be great . phd d: hmm . professor g: i i do n't wan na say that by fiat . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: i 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and , uh , uh , phd d: hmm . professor g: i i i think this year we we actually , uh , can do it . postdoc f: oh , wonderful . professor g: it 's a we have we have due to @ @ { comment } variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: so i do n't wan na hire a grad a: calendar year or ? professor g: uh , i mean , calendar year two thousand one . grad a: ok . professor g: yeah . so it 's uh , it 's we do n't wan na hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: full - time . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . but having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding . postdoc f: wonderful . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and then school will start in in the sixt on the sixteenth . professor g: so . postdoc f: some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point . professor g: yeah . phd e: are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: but some of them are . grad a: wow . postdoc f: yeah . well , why do i would n't say forty - hour weeks . no . but what i mean is oh , i should n't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . no . i th i i would say they 're probably they do n't have o they do n't have other things that are taking away their time . grad a: i do n't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription . phd e: hmm . postdoc f: but it 's you ca n't . professor g: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: no . you 're right . it 's i it would be too taxing . but , um , they 're putting in a lot of professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and and i checked them over . professor g: i postdoc f: i i i have n't checked them all , but just spot - checking . they 're fantastic . grad a: i think it would be professor g: i remember when we were transcribing berp , uh , uh , uh , ron kay , uh , volunteered to to do some of that . and , he was the first first stuff he did was transcribing chuck . and he 's saying `` you you know , i always thought chuck spoke really well . `` postdoc f: yeah . yeah . well , you know , and i also thought , y liz has this , eh , you know , and i do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . these people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: we 'd have to mark them . postdoc f: or whatever . so , um . professor g: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: i think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: yeah . grad a: cuz i 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . yeah . th - that 'd be i think that 's a a good idea . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: you know , there 's also , the e in my mind , i think a an - andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , um , we have n't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from ibm , and it may just be , you know , pristine . but on the other hand , given the lesser interface cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um professor g: it could be that they will uh theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . postdoc f: something like that . professor g: maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gon na do these alignments , which will also clear things up . postdoc f: that 's that 's true . al - although you have to s do n't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: well , tha that 's that 's debatable . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? i mean , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , uh , clean things up . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? so it it 's got its own objective criterion . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough i mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back back when chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . grad a: wrong . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . professor g: but it 's o k . you start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that does n't really look too bad . postdoc f: oh , excellent . ok . professor g: so so i think using a a good aligner , um , actually can can help a lot . um . but , uh , you know , they both help each other . if you have a if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . if you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so so postdoc f: excellent . i guess there 's another aspect , too , and i do n't know uh , this this is very possibly a different , uh , topic . but , uh , just let me say with reference to this idea of , um , higher - order organization within meetings . so like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um e i mean , i i i did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: already transcribed meeting . and i do n't know if , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wan na do with each meeting , sort of like a , um it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: i mean , i i i do n't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . i do n't know i if that 's something that i should do when i look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: but this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . ok . professor g: yeah . meaning really is n't my thing . um grad a: i think it just whoever is interested can do that . i mean , so if someone wants to use that data postdoc f: ok . professor g: we 're running a little short here . postdoc f: that 's fine . professor g: we , uh , uh , cou trying to postdoc f: i 'm finished . professor g: eh , was p well , you know , the thing i 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: oh , yeah . professor g: and and i have n't heard , uh , from jose yet . postdoc f: oh , yes . phd d: ok . what do you want ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so grad a: we could skip the digits . professor g: uh grad a: we do n't have to read digits each time . professor g: uh i i i think it you know , another another bunch of digits . more data is good . grad a: ok . phd d: yeah . sure . professor g: so so i 'd like to do that . but i think , do you , maybe , eh ? did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: yeah . it 's it 's prepared . professor g: or what was that ? yeah . postdoc f: oh , k sorry . professor g: uh , how long a ? phd d: i i think it 's it 's fast , because , uh , i have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . eh , um , eh , in the in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the by the , um , variance . um , i th i professor g: yeah . phd d: the other , uh the the last w uh , meeting eh , i do n't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it does n't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: yes . right . phd d: and it was a problem , uh , with the scale . grad a: with what ? phd d: eh , the scale . postdoc f: scale . grad a: scale . phd d: eh , and i i change the scale and we can see the the variance . professor g: ok . but the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: right ? phd d: the distribution the distribution is is similar . professor g: ok . so that 's that 's that 's enough then . ok . phd d: yeah . professor g: no , i mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: so , i i think we have to start uh , i mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh what we said before is that , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: um , it looks like , at least that you have n't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: um , i i 'm i 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . these things l @ @ seems like there should be , phd d: yeah . professor g: but but you do n't want to keep , uh keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . but , i mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: yeah . professor g: so which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . um but , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in spain , phd d: yeah . professor g: which is to say , do n't worry so much about the , uh , features . phd d: yeah . professor g: that is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling . phd d: yeah . professor g: you know , have a have a couple markov models and and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . phd d: hmm . professor g: and let the , uh , uh , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . phd d: yeah . professor g: i i , um , i think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . i think that you 'd end up with a better system overall . phd d: yeah . professor g: but given the limitation in time and given the fact that javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: maybe that 's a better place to go . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so . phd d: i i i think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: yeah . phd d: and wh what nnn , how far is professor g: maybe . yeah . phd d: and , i i have prepared the the pitch tracker now . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: and i hope the the next week i will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . professor g: i see . phd d: and , nnn , nnn professor g: ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ? phd c: no . no . phd d: no . professor g: oh . maybe m you could , you kn uh show thilo that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . sure . phd d: yeah . professor g: cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . phd d: yeah . professor g: but if you included , uh , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: ok . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah , but i 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector i i i used up to now , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: that 's right . but i think javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . phd d: ah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think javier 's might be able to . phd c: so . professor g: n n grad a: it does n't have the same gaus - uh , h m m modeling , phd c: yeah . grad a: which is i think a drawback . phd c: ok . grad a: but , uh professor g: well , it 's sort of has a simple one . phd d: mmm , yeah . grad a: does it ? professor g: right ? it 's it 's just it 's just a is n't it just a gaussian phd d: yeah . professor g: for each ? grad a: yeah . and then he ch you choose optimal splitting . phd d: hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . oh , it does n't have it does n't have any temporal , uh ? grad a: maybe i 'm misremembering , but i did not think it had a markov professor g: i thought it yeah . i gues i guess i do n't remember either . uh . it 's been a while . phd c: yeah . uh , i could have a look at it . phd d: javier professor g: uh . phd c: so . phd d: you mean ja - eh , eh , javier program ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: no , javier di does n't worked with , uh , a markov grad a: yeah , i did n't think so . phd d: he on only train professor g: oh , ok . so he 's just he just computes a gaussian over potential grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . it was only gaussian . professor g: oh , i see . i see . grad a: and so i i think it would work fine for detecting overlap . phd d: this is the idea . professor g: and and grad a: it 's just , uh , that i it he has the two - pass issue that what he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . and that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . phd c: ok . grad a: and so those are the putative places where he tries . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . ok . grad a: and right now he 's doing that with silence and that does n't work with the meeting recorder . so if we used another method to get the first pass , i think it would probably work . phd c: yeah . yeah . sure . yeah . yeah , ok . grad a: it 's a good method . as long as the len as long the segments are long enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: that 's the other problem . phd c: so professor g: o - k ok . so let me go back to what you had , though . phd c: yeah . professor g: um . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: the other thing one could do is could n't i mean , it 's so you have two categories phd c: yeah . professor g: and you have markov models for each . could n't you have a third category ? so you have , uh you have , uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: he has this on his board actually . do n't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: right ? and then you have a markov model for each ? phd c: um i 'm not sure . i i thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . but it 's not too easy , i think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system i have now . but it it it could be possible , i think , professor g: i see . i see . phd c: in principle . professor g: yeah , i mean , i this is all pretty gross . phd d: yeah . professor g: i mean , the th the reason why , uh , i was suggesting originally that we look at features is because i thought , well , we 're doing something we have n't done before , phd c: yeah . professor g: we should at least look at the space and understand phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: it seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: i had the impression . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . grad a: right . phd c: yeah . professor g: so those are all things that should be there . phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: so far , um , uh , jose has has been by the way , i was told i should be calling you pepe , but phd d: yeah . professor g: by your friends , but anyway , phd d: yeah . professor g: um , uh , the has has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then there 's , you know is it energy ? is it log energy ? is it lpc residual energy ? is it is it is it , uh , delta of those things ? uh , what is it no obviously , just a simple number absolute number is n't gon na work . so it should be with compared to what ? should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: yeah . professor g: or , you know , how b short should they be ? so , phd d: hmm . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . phd d: yeah . professor g: so i i still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . phd d: yeah . to overrule , yeah . professor g: so pitch - related and harmonic - related , i 'm i 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: but it seems like if we just wan na get something to work , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: that , uh , their suggestion of of th - they were suggesting going to markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what javier did . and one of those things , looking at the statistical component , phd d: one . phd c: yeah . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , um eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: but , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the javier software ? eh , i mean , the , uh the , uh the bic criterion , the the t to train the the gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . i mean , eh , i i i think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step i mean , the the classifier what were the classifier from javier or classifier from thilo ? w what happen with the second step ? i i mean , what what happen with the , eh the , uh , clu the , uh the clu the clustering process ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: using the the gaussian . grad a: you mean javier 's ? phd d: yeah . grad a: what do you mean ? phd d: i i mean , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step does n't work well , eh , we have another problem . grad a: i yeah . i had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: n grad a: and it worked pretty well , but i have n't worked with it a lot . so what i d i d i took a hand - segmented sample phd d: nnn , yeah . grad a: and i added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: yeah . grad a: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries . phd d: oh . yeah . but is is if grad a: but this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: but it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: right . so if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to javier 's and it does n't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: uh yeah . the n n yeah . no . the demonstration by hand . segmentation by hand i i i think is the fast experiment . grad a: yeah . i think that 's probably worthwhile doing . phd d: uh , we can prove that the professor g: uh - huh . grad a: whether it 'll work or not . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and gaussian grad a: yeah . professor g: yeah . grad a: yep . y do you know where his software is ? have you used it at all ? phd d: i yeah have . i have . grad a: ok . phd d: grad a: so . i i have as well , so if you need need help let me know . phd d: ok . professor g: let 's read some digits . grad a: ok . uuh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we are { disfmarker }

speaker c ’ s efforts to detect speech/non-speech portions in the mixed signal ( using an hmm-based detector with gaussian mixtures ) have produced pre-segmentations that facilitate the transcription effort .

what did the team discuss about volume variation ? </s> grad a: ok . we seem to be recording . professor g: alright ! grad a: so , sorry about not professor g: we 're not crashing . phd d: number four . grad a: not pre - doing everything . the lunch went a little later than i was expecting , chuck . phd e: hmm ? professor g: ok . phd b: chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ? grad a: yep . pretty much . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . does anybody have an agenda ? grad a: no . postdoc f: well , i 'm i sent a couple of items . they 're they 're sort of practical . professor g: i thought somebody had . postdoc f: i do n't know if you 're professor g: yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: if if that 's too practical for what we 're focused on . grad a: i mean , we do n't want anything too practical . professor g: yeah , we only want th useless things . grad a: yeah , that would be professor g: yeah . no , why do n't we talk about practical things ? postdoc f: ok . professor g: sure . postdoc f: well , um , i can give you an update on the transcription effort . professor g: great . postdoc f: uh , maybe raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: ok , transcription , uh , microphone issues postdoc f: and then maybe ask , th uh , these guys . the we have great great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . professor g: ok . grad a: well , we have steps forward . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , it 's a it 's a big improvement . phd c: i would prefer this . professor g: yes . yeah , well . ok . uh phd d: we talk about the the results of professor g: you have some yeah . grad a: i have a little bit of iram stuff professor g: ok . phd d: use grad a: but i 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: uh , bigram ? grad a: iram . phd d: iram . professor g: iram . grad a: iram , bigram , professor g: well , m maybe . phd d: bi - bigram . grad a: you know . professor g: yeah , let 's let 's see where we are at three - thirty . phd b: hmm . professor g: um phd b: since , uh since i have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? professor g: well phd c: which is ? grad a: what 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part . phd e: please specify . professor g: but phd b: well , uh , i guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i think that would be a good thing to start with . phd b: yeah . professor g: ok . um , and , um , the other thing , uh , which i 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting i had the other day when i was in spain with , uh , manolo pardo and javier , uh , ferreiros , who was here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . so , in what javier did before when they were doing , um h he was looking for , uh , speaker change points . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: um . as a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , uh , a putative , uh , speaker change point . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . and for broadcast news , that was fine . here obviously it 's not . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: uh - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: nnn , yeah . professor g: so then you 've got you already have the super - structure with gaussians and h - you know , simple h m ms and so forth . and you you might so there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because i i thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . phd d: yeah . professor g: but , uh , on the other hand i saw that the they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit because ultimately we 're gon na end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple hmm and you 're testing the hypothesis that , uh , there is a change . phd d: yeah . professor g: so so anyway , i just reporting that . phd d: ok . professor g: but , uh , uh so . yeah , why do n't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: yeah . do i i hear you you did n't phd c: speech - nonspeech ? ok . postdoc f: uh - huh . yeah . phd c: um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and what i did so far is i just used our old munich system , which is an hmm - ba based system with gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . and it was a system which used only one gaussian for silence and one gaussian for speech . and now i added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech . professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: and i did some training on on one dialogue , which was transcribed by yeah . we we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription . phd d: jose . phd c: adam , dave , and i , we did , for that dialogue and i trained it on that . and i did some pre - segmentations for for jane . and i 'm not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say . they they can use it or ? postdoc f: uh , they they think it 's a terrific improvement . and , um , it real it just makes a a world of difference . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: and , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: yeah . uh , yeah . that that was one one one thing , uh , why i added more mixtures for for the speech . so i saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and so i did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: and did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: i did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: right . phd c: and that was enough to to train the system . phd b: w what ? phd d: yeah . phd c: and so it it adapts , uh , on while running . so . phd b: what kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ? phd c: hopefully . phd d: ok . phd c: it 's just our our old munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd b: mm - hmm . phd c: and four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . so it 's twenty - four twenty - four features . phd b: mmm . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and you also provided me with several different versions , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: which i compared . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and so you change parameters . what do you wan na say something about the parameters that you change ? phd c: yeah . you can specify the minimum length of speech or and silence portions which you want . and so i did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , um yeah to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . so . grad a: right . so this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . yeah . grad a: but for overlap i imagine that does n't work at all , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: that 's it . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad a: but postdoc f: that 's true . but it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: um grad a: yep . postdoc f: just enormous , enormous savings . fantastic . professor g: that 's great . um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . so you have these twenty - four features . phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , a lot of them are spectral features . is there a a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ? phd c: no . grad a: yeah . it was is two . phd c: no . w w we originally we did that professor g: just phd c: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . it it works as well f with with without , uh , a lda or something . professor g: ok . ok . no , i was j curious . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i do n't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: yeah . phd d: right . professor g: but but yeah , it 's a postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . but then there 's another thing that also thilo 's involved with , which is , um ok , and and also da - dave gelbart . so there 's this this problem of and w and so we had this meeting . th - the also adam , before the the before you went away . uh we , um regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , um , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired i think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so we do n't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . we just have the the overlaps encoded in a simple bin . well , ok . so @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my my view and i think i mean , i had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . so , um , um , i spoke i had a meeting with dave gelbart on on and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . but , um , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . so , do you wan na say something about that ? phd c: yes . um , i talked with , uh , munich guys from from ludwi - ludwig maximilians university , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and they basically said they have they have , uh , a tool they developed themselves and they ca n't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: yeah . phd c: but , um , susanne bur - burger , who is at se cmu , he wa who was formally at in munich and w and is now at with cmu , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: excuse me . phd c: but it 's running under windows . postdoc f: under windows . phd c: so i 'm not sure if if if we can use it . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: she said she would give it to us . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: it would n't be a problem . and i 've got some some kind of manual down in my office . grad a: well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange windows machines to be available . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . we could uh , potentially so . grad a: so . postdoc f: i also wanted to be sure i mean , i 've i 've seen the this this is called praat , praat , which i guess means spee speech in dutch or something . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah , but then i 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . postdoc f: but in terms of it being windows versus professor g: yeah . grad a: no , no . praat is n't praat 's multi - platform . postdoc f: but i 'm just wondering , is ? phd c: no . no , praat yeah . yeah . postdoc f: oh ! i see . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: oh , i see . so praat may not be phd c: that 's not praat . it 's called `` trans transedit `` i think . postdoc f: it 's a different one . phd c: the the , uh the tool from from susanne . postdoc f: i see . oh , i see . ok . ok . alright . professor g: the other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh i mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: mmm , yeah . professor g: but , um , i think our outside sponsor is actually gon na kick in postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . so i do n't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . i think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . but as far a you know , uh , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . grad a: oh . phd b: but you s grad a: what our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . phd c: yeah . professor g: right . yeah . grad a: and and do what we can later to clean that up if we need to . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right . postdoc f: and and i was just thinking that , um , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: uh th - they 're making really quick progress . professor g: yeah . that 's great . postdoc f: and , um , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . and it 'll be i 'm i 'm i 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . professor g: that 's great . grad a: and did you , uh , forward morgan brian 's thing ? professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i sent it to , um who did i send that to ? i sent it to a list and i thought i sent it to the e to the local list . phd e: meeting recorder . grad a: oh , you did ? ok . so you probably did get that . postdoc f: you saw that ? so brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , uh that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gon na check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: i mean , basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . i mean , basically he 's he 's on it now . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: oh , that 's this is a new development . professor g: so so so this is so i it 'll happen . postdoc f: ok . super . super . ok . great . professor g: yeah . i mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: yeah . professor g: you know , who just does n't happen to be here anymore . someone else pays him . so phd b: but about the need for transcription , postdoc f: is n't that great ? phd b: i mean , do n't we did n't we previously decide that the ibm transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: so . yeah . postdoc f: yes . that 's true . phd b: so , i think having a good tool is worth something no matter what . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . s ok . that 's that 's a good point . grad a: yeah , and dave gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: good . grad a: and since he 's not here , i 'll repeat it to at least modify transcriber , which , if we do n't have something else that works , i think that 's a pretty good way of going . phd c: mmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we discussed on some methods to do it . my approach originally , and i 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because i was trying to display all the waveforms . but he pointed out that you do n't really have to . i think that 's a good point . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: that if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: yeah , exactly . and just keep those things separate . and and , um , dan ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: no . they can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: oh , yes , but well , uh , yes , but what i mean is that , uh , from the transcriber 's perspective , uh , those two functions are separate . and dan ellis 's hack handles the , um , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . grad a: but only to listen to , not to look at . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: um grad a: the waveform you 're looking at does n't change . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: that 's true . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: yeah , but that 's that 's ok , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . grad a: right . postdoc f: and then and then professor g: hmm . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: right . postdoc f: which then would also serve liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio . professor g: mm - hmm . have , uh , folks from nist been in contact with you ? postdoc f: not directly . i 'm trying to think if if i could have gotten it over a list . professor g: ok . postdoc f: i do n't i do n't think so . professor g: ok . well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in they seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . postdoc f: oh ! this was from before december . yeah . professor g: right . because they 're they 're presumably going to start recording next month . postdoc f: ok . ok . grad a: oh , we should definitely get with them then , professor g: so . grad a: and agree upon a format . though i do n't remember email on that . so was i not in the loop on that ? professor g: um . yeah , i do n't think i mailed anybody . i just think i told them to contact jane that , uh , if they had a grad a: oh , ok . postdoc f: that 's right . professor g: if , uh that that , uh , as the point person on it . grad a: yeah , i think that 's right . professor g: but grad a: just , uh professor g: so , yeah . maybe i 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to get that straight . postdoc f: ok . i 'm keeping the conventions absolutely as simple as possible . professor g: yeah . so is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at columbia , collections at at uw i mean dan dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . professor g: and collections at nist . so yeah . grad a: so . postdoc f: n there was also this , uh , email from dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: i do n't know if , uh , uh , we wan na , uh and dan gel - and dave gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . grad a: cross - correlation . professor g: oh , yeah . he was talking he was talking i mean , uh , we he had postdoc f: cross professor g: yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: cross professor g: i had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , uh , voice , uh you know , active miking , postdoc f: uh - huh . professor g: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . and and you basically compare the energy here to some function of all of the mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who who 's talking . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh and those those systems work very well , by the way , i mean , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: uh - huh . professor g: uh and , uh , those if boy , the guy i knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: hmm . professor g: so they 're it 's the the techniques work pretty well . postdoc f: fantastic . cuz there is one thing that we do n't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier . professor g: so . postdoc f: that that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: the the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do if that were available . professor g: yeah . so i think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: but . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh , and we also have these we have the advantage of having distant mikes too . so that , you cou yo grad a: yeah , although the the using the close - talking i think would be much better . would n't it ? postdoc f: yeah . professor g: um . i i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor g: i just it 'd be if i was actually working on it , i 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . i mean , the the the , uh but , uh , you certainly wan na use the close - talking , as a at least . grad a: right . professor g: i do n't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . what what are the different , uh , classes to to code , uh , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: um , to code d phd d: what you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: yeah . postdoc f: um , so at a meeting that was n't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and , um phd d: look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? the ? yeah ? yeah . postdoc f: yes , exactly . that has n't changed . so it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . and then below that there 're subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , you know , is it , uh , simply backchannel phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: or is it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . grad a: right . and i hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . phd d: huh . yeah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . well , one would phd d: we hope . grad a: yeah . who knows ? postdoc f: that 'd be that 'd be nice . i mean , i i i i 've phd b: so who 's gon na do that ? who 's gon na do forced alignment ? grad a: well , u uh , ibm was going to . um phd b: oh , ok . phd d: oh . grad a: and i imagine they still plan to but but , you know , i have n't spoken with them about that recently . phd b: ok . phd d: uh - huh . professor g: well , uh , my suggestion now is is on all of these things to , uh , contact brian . grad a: ok . i 'll do that . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: this is wonderful to have a direct contact like that . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: uh well , th lem me ask you this . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: it occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , um , by professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , uh , say professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . i could send brian the , um the transcript . i know these are er , uh , i could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: well , just talk to him about it . grad a: yep . postdoc f: good . professor g: i mean , you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: yeah ! professor g: uh , they and and , you know , the the organization always did wan na help us . postdoc f: super . super . professor g: it was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah , yeah . professor g: so , um , eh grad a: is he on the mailing list ? the meeting recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: oh ! grad a: we should add him . postdoc f: yeah . i i i do n't know for sure . professor g: yeah . phd e: did something happen , morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: add him . phd e: or ? professor g: no , i , eh , eh , p it it oc i h it 's yeah , something happened . i do n't know what . phd b: he asked for more work . phd e: huh . professor g: but he 's on it now . postdoc f: that would be like that 'd be like him . he 's great . professor g: right . so , uh , where are we ? maybe , uh , uh , brief well , let 's why do n't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: yeah . that 'd be great . professor g: that was that was a grad a: um , so one thing is that i did look on sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . but i think i need someone who knows more about mikes than i do , because i could n't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: oh , i probably would . i mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same . grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: so uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that . phd e: you could n't you could n't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: yep . when i looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . but my guess is that sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . and and so professor g: mm - hmm . well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: and there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: yeah . postdoc f: seems like there 'd be a ok . grad a: as i said , who knows ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: who who are we buying these from ? grad a: um , professor g: that 'd be grad a: i have it downstairs . i do n't remember off the top of my head . professor g: yeah . ok . yeah . we we can try and look at that together . grad a: and then , uh just in terms of how you wear them i mean , i had thought about this before . i mean , when when when you use a product like dragondictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . postdoc f: oh . grad a: but i felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gon na get people to really do it and maybe it was n't worth concentrating on . but professor g: well , i think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . that 's what i was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gon na get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . but i i think that it it does n't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: because , um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . grad a: oh . that 's true . professor g: i mean , i think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people are n't gon na be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: so this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , it 's gon na make you know , if if an - andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gon na be m wan na be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . grad a: right . professor g: so it 's it 's , uh , uh grad a: well , i 'll dig through the documentation to dragondictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: but it does happen . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , and any phd b: it 's interesting , uh , i talked to some ibm guys , uh , last january , i think , i was there . and so people who were working on the on their viavoice dictation product . professor g: yeah . phd b: and they said , uh , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . postdoc f: wow . phd b: so , anything to reduce breathing is is is a good thing . professor g: yeah . grad a: well , that 's the it seemed to me when i was using dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , uh an enormous amount . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: so you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it does n't the wind does n't hit the mike . phd b: right . mm - hmm . grad a: and then , uh everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . and then just close enough so that you get good volume . so you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: is uh - huh . professor g: i remember when i was when i i i i used , uh , um , a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , uh this was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . and , um , they were they were perturbed with me because i was breathing in instead of breathing out . and they had models for they they had markov models for br breathing out but they did n't have them for breathing in . phd d: yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: that 's interesting . well , what i wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly i mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . grad a: i mean , when when it 's on , you can see it . postdoc f: i do n't know if the if it 's professor g: i grad a: you can definitely see it . postdoc f: can you see the breathing ? grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: cuz i grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: oh . professor g: yeah . grad a: and so , you know , i 've i 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: i grad a: and the bar going up and down , and i 'm thinking , i could say something , but professor g: i mean , i think grad a: i do n't want to make people self - conscious . stop breathing ! professor g: it it 's going to be imperfect . postdoc f: yeah . uh - huh . professor g: you 're not gon na get it perfect . and you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: yeah . postdoc f: good . professor g: but not too far away . postdoc f: yeah , i professor g: and then , you know , i think there 's not much because you ca n't al you know , interfere w you ca n't fine tune the meeting that much , i think . grad a: right . phd d: yeah . professor g: it 's sort of postdoc f: that 's true . it just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . grad a: yep . and then also the position of the mike also . if it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . so so , like , yours is pretty far down below your mouth . yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: but mm - hmm . my my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: yeah . phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: i do n't know why that is . postdoc f: well , i mean , you yeah , of course . you 're you 're also uh , your volume is is greater . but but still , i mean , they they say grad a: i 've been eating a lot . postdoc f: i it makes their their job extremely easy . professor g: uh . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: and then there 's mass . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: anyway . postdoc f: i could say something about about the well , i do n't know what you wan na do . yeah . professor g: about what ? postdoc f: about the transcribers or anything or ? i do n't know . professor g: well , the other phd b: but , uh , just to to , um professor g: why do n't we do that ? phd b: one more remark , uh , concerning the sri recognizer . um . it is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so , grad a: so , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: mmm . phd b: um postdoc f: they are . phd b: ok . postdoc f: they 're putting eh , so in curly brackets they put `` inhale `` or `` breath `` . grad a: oh , great . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: it they and then in curly brackets they say `` laughter `` . now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , uh , m so they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: one is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . so , um , i i did s i did some double checking to look through i mean , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: it 's not so i do n't think it 's , um postdoc f: and that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying `` curly brackets laughing `` a after the unit . phd b: as as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words i think that 's sufficient , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: good . oh ! grad a: against they could do forced alignment . postdoc f: ok . phd b: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um you know , is pretty good . phd c: yeah . phd b: so as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: oh , i did n't know that . phd b: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models . postdoc f: ok . grad a: that would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: then phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and let me ask y and i got ta ask you one thing about that . grad a: when phd b: hmm . postdoc f: so , um , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . phd b: mm - hmm . right . postdoc f: but if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . does that matter ? phd d: yeah . phd b: well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . um , and that 's , uh i do n't think that we can do very well with that . grad a: right . phd b: so phd d: yeah . phd b: but , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: ok . grad a: so are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: uh is it ? phd d: huh . i i think it 's frequent in in the meeting . postdoc f: i think he 's right . yeah . phd b: we tried both . uh , currently , um , we use special words . there was a there 's actually a word for uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: mm - hmm . mouth stuff ? phd b: uh , mouth mouth stuff . and then laughter is a is a special word . grad a: how would we do that with the hybrid system ? professor g: same thing . grad a: so train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: same thing ? yeah . yeah . you ha oh . and each of these words has a dedicated phone . professor g: no grad a: oh , it does ? phd b: so the so the the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that . grad a: right . so in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone . professor g: yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: i mean , it 's it 's it 's always the same thing . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right ? i mean , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , uh different states . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then you would have three i mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: do whatever you want . phd b: and the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah , yeah . phd d: no . phd b: they actually are uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: to go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: and how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: it 's just a it 's just a word . grad a: it 's just a word in the language model . phd b: we train it like any other word . grad a: cool . phd b: yeah . we also tried , um , absorbing these uh , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , um phd d: yeah . phd b: yes . ok . anyway . we also tried absorbing that into the pause model i mean , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , um , it did n't work as well . so . grad a: huh . ok . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: can you hand me your digit form ? phd b: sorry . grad a: i just wan na mark that you did not read digits . professor g: ok . say hi for me . postdoc f: good . you you did get me to thinking about i i 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing i think it may be an individual thing . some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking . professor g: yeah . grad a: i was noticing that with dan in the one that we , uh we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: yeah . i think postdoc f: but i ca n't phd d: yeah . grad a: that th he has these little chuckles as he talks . postdoc f: yeah . ok . professor g: i 'm sure it 's very individual . and and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . we have this very , very tiny sample of of phd d: yeah . postdoc f: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: speech researchers ? professor g: uh , yeah . and yeah , r right . phd d: speech research . professor g: so , uh , who knows . uh yeah . why don why do n't we just since we 're on this vein , why do n't we just continue with , uh , what you were gon na say about the transcriptions postdoc f: ok . professor g: and ? postdoc f: um , um , the i i 'm really very for i 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . they are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um and i 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: cuz they 're gon na be transcribing it in a few days . postdoc f: no , they 're super . they 're the they very quick . phd e: ok . turn the mikes off and let 's talk . postdoc f: yeah , i know . i am i 'm serious . they 're just super . so i , um , e you know , i i brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because i think people can raise questions grad a: that 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and um , i trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . this also gives me a sense of you know , i can i can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . but the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . and then , um , i just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . they 're , um they 're trained in linguistics . grad a: good . oh , no . is that good or bad ? postdoc f: they got professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: well , they they 're very perce they 'll so one of them said `` well , you know , he really said `` n `` , not really `` and `` , phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: so what what should i do with that ? `` grad a: yeah . postdoc f: and i said , `` well for our purposes , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i do have a convention . if it 's an a noncanonical p `` that one , i think we you know , with eric 's work , i sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . but i told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like i said in one thing , professor g: ok . yes . postdoc f: and i gave my my example , like i said , `` microfon `` in instead of `` microphone `` . did n't bother i knew it when i said it . i remember s thinking `` oh , that 's not correctly pronounced `` . but it but i thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . grad a: you 'll self - repair . yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: but i have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native english american english speaker , you know that i did n't mean to say `` microfon . `` then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets `` pron error `` . and , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . but , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the `` nnn `` . `` he said `` nnn `` , not `` and `` . what shall i do with that ? `` i mean , they 're very perceptive . and and s several of them are trained in ipa . c they really could do phonetic transcription if if we wanted them to . professor g: mm - hmm . right . well well , you know , it might be something we 'd wan na do with some , uh , s small subset of the whole thing . grad a: hmm . where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: i think professor g: we certainly would n't wan na do it with everything . postdoc f: and i 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . i mean , if , uh so i i told them that , um , we do n't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: and i also m i think they know that the data p source is limited and i may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although i hope to . professor g: the other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . postdoc f: and oh , that 'd be so super . they would be so s so terrific . grad a: i mean , this was something that we were talking about . professor g: right ? grad a: we could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . right ? one for each participant . so they could by hand professor g: well , that 's one way to do it . grad a: yeah . professor g: but i 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , that 's right . professor g: right ? postdoc f: and with the right in interface professor g: given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: which we know from the steve 's experience with the switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . and and you know , it took them i do n't know how many months to do to get four hours . and so that has n't been really our focus . uh , we can consider it . but , i mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but anyway , i 'm i 'm open to c our consideration . postdoc f: that 'd be great . phd d: hmm . professor g: i i do n't wan na say that by fiat . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: i 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and , uh , uh , phd d: hmm . professor g: i i i think this year we we actually , uh , can do it . postdoc f: oh , wonderful . professor g: it 's a we have we have due to @ @ { comment } variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: so i do n't wan na hire a grad a: calendar year or ? professor g: uh , i mean , calendar year two thousand one . grad a: ok . professor g: yeah . so it 's uh , it 's we do n't wan na hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: full - time . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . but having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding . postdoc f: wonderful . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and then school will start in in the sixt on the sixteenth . professor g: so . postdoc f: some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point . professor g: yeah . phd e: are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: but some of them are . grad a: wow . postdoc f: yeah . well , why do i would n't say forty - hour weeks . no . but what i mean is oh , i should n't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . no . i th i i would say they 're probably they do n't have o they do n't have other things that are taking away their time . grad a: i do n't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription . phd e: hmm . postdoc f: but it 's you ca n't . professor g: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: no . you 're right . it 's i it would be too taxing . but , um , they 're putting in a lot of professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and and i checked them over . professor g: i postdoc f: i i i have n't checked them all , but just spot - checking . they 're fantastic . grad a: i think it would be professor g: i remember when we were transcribing berp , uh , uh , uh , ron kay , uh , volunteered to to do some of that . and , he was the first first stuff he did was transcribing chuck . and he 's saying `` you you know , i always thought chuck spoke really well . `` postdoc f: yeah . yeah . well , you know , and i also thought , y liz has this , eh , you know , and i do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . these people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: we 'd have to mark them . postdoc f: or whatever . so , um . professor g: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: i think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: yeah . grad a: cuz i 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . yeah . th - that 'd be i think that 's a a good idea . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: you know , there 's also , the e in my mind , i think a an - andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , um , we have n't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from ibm , and it may just be , you know , pristine . but on the other hand , given the lesser interface cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um professor g: it could be that they will uh theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . postdoc f: something like that . professor g: maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gon na do these alignments , which will also clear things up . postdoc f: that 's that 's true . al - although you have to s do n't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: well , tha that 's that 's debatable . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? i mean , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , uh , clean things up . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? so it it 's got its own objective criterion . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough i mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back back when chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . grad a: wrong . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . professor g: but it 's o k . you start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that does n't really look too bad . postdoc f: oh , excellent . ok . professor g: so so i think using a a good aligner , um , actually can can help a lot . um . but , uh , you know , they both help each other . if you have a if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . if you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so so postdoc f: excellent . i guess there 's another aspect , too , and i do n't know uh , this this is very possibly a different , uh , topic . but , uh , just let me say with reference to this idea of , um , higher - order organization within meetings . so like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um e i mean , i i i did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: already transcribed meeting . and i do n't know if , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wan na do with each meeting , sort of like a , um it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: i mean , i i i do n't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . i do n't know i if that 's something that i should do when i look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: but this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . ok . professor g: yeah . meaning really is n't my thing . um grad a: i think it just whoever is interested can do that . i mean , so if someone wants to use that data postdoc f: ok . professor g: we 're running a little short here . postdoc f: that 's fine . professor g: we , uh , uh , cou trying to postdoc f: i 'm finished . professor g: eh , was p well , you know , the thing i 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: oh , yeah . professor g: and and i have n't heard , uh , from jose yet . postdoc f: oh , yes . phd d: ok . what do you want ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so grad a: we could skip the digits . professor g: uh grad a: we do n't have to read digits each time . professor g: uh i i i think it you know , another another bunch of digits . more data is good . grad a: ok . phd d: yeah . sure . professor g: so so i 'd like to do that . but i think , do you , maybe , eh ? did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: yeah . it 's it 's prepared . professor g: or what was that ? yeah . postdoc f: oh , k sorry . professor g: uh , how long a ? phd d: i i think it 's it 's fast , because , uh , i have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . eh , um , eh , in the in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the by the , um , variance . um , i th i professor g: yeah . phd d: the other , uh the the last w uh , meeting eh , i do n't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it does n't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: yes . right . phd d: and it was a problem , uh , with the scale . grad a: with what ? phd d: eh , the scale . postdoc f: scale . grad a: scale . phd d: eh , and i i change the scale and we can see the the variance . professor g: ok . but the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: right ? phd d: the distribution the distribution is is similar . professor g: ok . so that 's that 's that 's enough then . ok . phd d: yeah . professor g: no , i mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: so , i i think we have to start uh , i mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh what we said before is that , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: um , it looks like , at least that you have n't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: um , i i 'm i 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . these things l @ @ seems like there should be , phd d: yeah . professor g: but but you do n't want to keep , uh keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . but , i mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: yeah . professor g: so which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . um but , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in spain , phd d: yeah . professor g: which is to say , do n't worry so much about the , uh , features . phd d: yeah . professor g: that is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling . phd d: yeah . professor g: you know , have a have a couple markov models and and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . phd d: hmm . professor g: and let the , uh , uh , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . phd d: yeah . professor g: i i , um , i think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . i think that you 'd end up with a better system overall . phd d: yeah . professor g: but given the limitation in time and given the fact that javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: maybe that 's a better place to go . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so . phd d: i i i think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: yeah . phd d: and wh what nnn , how far is professor g: maybe . yeah . phd d: and , i i have prepared the the pitch tracker now . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: and i hope the the next week i will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . professor g: i see . phd d: and , nnn , nnn professor g: ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ? phd c: no . no . phd d: no . professor g: oh . maybe m you could , you kn uh show thilo that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . sure . phd d: yeah . professor g: cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . phd d: yeah . professor g: but if you included , uh , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: ok . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah , but i 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector i i i used up to now , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: that 's right . but i think javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . phd d: ah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think javier 's might be able to . phd c: so . professor g: n n grad a: it does n't have the same gaus - uh , h m m modeling , phd c: yeah . grad a: which is i think a drawback . phd c: ok . grad a: but , uh professor g: well , it 's sort of has a simple one . phd d: mmm , yeah . grad a: does it ? professor g: right ? it 's it 's just it 's just a is n't it just a gaussian phd d: yeah . professor g: for each ? grad a: yeah . and then he ch you choose optimal splitting . phd d: hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . oh , it does n't have it does n't have any temporal , uh ? grad a: maybe i 'm misremembering , but i did not think it had a markov professor g: i thought it yeah . i gues i guess i do n't remember either . uh . it 's been a while . phd c: yeah . uh , i could have a look at it . phd d: javier professor g: uh . phd c: so . phd d: you mean ja - eh , eh , javier program ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: no , javier di does n't worked with , uh , a markov grad a: yeah , i did n't think so . phd d: he on only train professor g: oh , ok . so he 's just he just computes a gaussian over potential grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . it was only gaussian . professor g: oh , i see . i see . grad a: and so i i think it would work fine for detecting overlap . phd d: this is the idea . professor g: and and grad a: it 's just , uh , that i it he has the two - pass issue that what he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . and that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . phd c: ok . grad a: and so those are the putative places where he tries . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . ok . grad a: and right now he 's doing that with silence and that does n't work with the meeting recorder . so if we used another method to get the first pass , i think it would probably work . phd c: yeah . yeah . sure . yeah . yeah , ok . grad a: it 's a good method . as long as the len as long the segments are long enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: that 's the other problem . phd c: so professor g: o - k ok . so let me go back to what you had , though . phd c: yeah . professor g: um . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: the other thing one could do is could n't i mean , it 's so you have two categories phd c: yeah . professor g: and you have markov models for each . could n't you have a third category ? so you have , uh you have , uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: he has this on his board actually . do n't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: right ? and then you have a markov model for each ? phd c: um i 'm not sure . i i thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . but it 's not too easy , i think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system i have now . but it it it could be possible , i think , professor g: i see . i see . phd c: in principle . professor g: yeah , i mean , i this is all pretty gross . phd d: yeah . professor g: i mean , the th the reason why , uh , i was suggesting originally that we look at features is because i thought , well , we 're doing something we have n't done before , phd c: yeah . professor g: we should at least look at the space and understand phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: it seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: i had the impression . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . grad a: right . phd c: yeah . professor g: so those are all things that should be there . phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: so far , um , uh , jose has has been by the way , i was told i should be calling you pepe , but phd d: yeah . professor g: by your friends , but anyway , phd d: yeah . professor g: um , uh , the has has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then there 's , you know is it energy ? is it log energy ? is it lpc residual energy ? is it is it is it , uh , delta of those things ? uh , what is it no obviously , just a simple number absolute number is n't gon na work . so it should be with compared to what ? should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: yeah . professor g: or , you know , how b short should they be ? so , phd d: hmm . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . phd d: yeah . professor g: so i i still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . phd d: yeah . to overrule , yeah . professor g: so pitch - related and harmonic - related , i 'm i 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: but it seems like if we just wan na get something to work , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: that , uh , their suggestion of of th - they were suggesting going to markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what javier did . and one of those things , looking at the statistical component , phd d: one . phd c: yeah . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , um eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: but , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the javier software ? eh , i mean , the , uh the , uh the bic criterion , the the t to train the the gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . i mean , eh , i i i think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step i mean , the the classifier what were the classifier from javier or classifier from thilo ? w what happen with the second step ? i i mean , what what happen with the , eh the , uh , clu the , uh the clu the clustering process ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: using the the gaussian . grad a: you mean javier 's ? phd d: yeah . grad a: what do you mean ? phd d: i i mean , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step does n't work well , eh , we have another problem . grad a: i yeah . i had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: n grad a: and it worked pretty well , but i have n't worked with it a lot . so what i d i d i took a hand - segmented sample phd d: nnn , yeah . grad a: and i added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: yeah . grad a: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries . phd d: oh . yeah . but is is if grad a: but this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: but it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: right . so if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to javier 's and it does n't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: uh yeah . the n n yeah . no . the demonstration by hand . segmentation by hand i i i think is the fast experiment . grad a: yeah . i think that 's probably worthwhile doing . phd d: uh , we can prove that the professor g: uh - huh . grad a: whether it 'll work or not . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and gaussian grad a: yeah . professor g: yeah . grad a: yep . y do you know where his software is ? have you used it at all ? phd d: i yeah have . i have . grad a: ok . phd d: grad a: so . i i have as well , so if you need need help let me know . phd d: ok . professor g: let 's read some digits . grad a: ok . uuh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we are { disfmarker }

speaker mn014 trained the system to identify speech from loud versus quiet speakers . such pre-segmentation modifications allow the experimenter to specify the minimum length of speech and silence portions desired , and also facilitate the identification of pauses and utterance boundaries .

what problems were faced due to overlaps ? </s> grad a: ok . we seem to be recording . professor g: alright ! grad a: so , sorry about not professor g: we 're not crashing . phd d: number four . grad a: not pre - doing everything . the lunch went a little later than i was expecting , chuck . phd e: hmm ? professor g: ok . phd b: chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ? grad a: yep . pretty much . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . does anybody have an agenda ? grad a: no . postdoc f: well , i 'm i sent a couple of items . they 're they 're sort of practical . professor g: i thought somebody had . postdoc f: i do n't know if you 're professor g: yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: if if that 's too practical for what we 're focused on . grad a: i mean , we do n't want anything too practical . professor g: yeah , we only want th useless things . grad a: yeah , that would be professor g: yeah . no , why do n't we talk about practical things ? postdoc f: ok . professor g: sure . postdoc f: well , um , i can give you an update on the transcription effort . professor g: great . postdoc f: uh , maybe raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: ok , transcription , uh , microphone issues postdoc f: and then maybe ask , th uh , these guys . the we have great great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . professor g: ok . grad a: well , we have steps forward . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , it 's a it 's a big improvement . phd c: i would prefer this . professor g: yes . yeah , well . ok . uh phd d: we talk about the the results of professor g: you have some yeah . grad a: i have a little bit of iram stuff professor g: ok . phd d: use grad a: but i 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: uh , bigram ? grad a: iram . phd d: iram . professor g: iram . grad a: iram , bigram , professor g: well , m maybe . phd d: bi - bigram . grad a: you know . professor g: yeah , let 's let 's see where we are at three - thirty . phd b: hmm . professor g: um phd b: since , uh since i have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? professor g: well phd c: which is ? grad a: what 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part . phd e: please specify . professor g: but phd b: well , uh , i guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i think that would be a good thing to start with . phd b: yeah . professor g: ok . um , and , um , the other thing , uh , which i 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting i had the other day when i was in spain with , uh , manolo pardo and javier , uh , ferreiros , who was here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . so , in what javier did before when they were doing , um h he was looking for , uh , speaker change points . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: um . as a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , uh , a putative , uh , speaker change point . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . and for broadcast news , that was fine . here obviously it 's not . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: uh - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: nnn , yeah . professor g: so then you 've got you already have the super - structure with gaussians and h - you know , simple h m ms and so forth . and you you might so there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because i i thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . phd d: yeah . professor g: but , uh , on the other hand i saw that the they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit because ultimately we 're gon na end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple hmm and you 're testing the hypothesis that , uh , there is a change . phd d: yeah . professor g: so so anyway , i just reporting that . phd d: ok . professor g: but , uh , uh so . yeah , why do n't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: yeah . do i i hear you you did n't phd c: speech - nonspeech ? ok . postdoc f: uh - huh . yeah . phd c: um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and what i did so far is i just used our old munich system , which is an hmm - ba based system with gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . and it was a system which used only one gaussian for silence and one gaussian for speech . and now i added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech . professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: and i did some training on on one dialogue , which was transcribed by yeah . we we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription . phd d: jose . phd c: adam , dave , and i , we did , for that dialogue and i trained it on that . and i did some pre - segmentations for for jane . and i 'm not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say . they they can use it or ? postdoc f: uh , they they think it 's a terrific improvement . and , um , it real it just makes a a world of difference . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: and , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: yeah . uh , yeah . that that was one one one thing , uh , why i added more mixtures for for the speech . so i saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and so i did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: and did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: i did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: right . phd c: and that was enough to to train the system . phd b: w what ? phd d: yeah . phd c: and so it it adapts , uh , on while running . so . phd b: what kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ? phd c: hopefully . phd d: ok . phd c: it 's just our our old munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd b: mm - hmm . phd c: and four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . so it 's twenty - four twenty - four features . phd b: mmm . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and you also provided me with several different versions , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: which i compared . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and so you change parameters . what do you wan na say something about the parameters that you change ? phd c: yeah . you can specify the minimum length of speech or and silence portions which you want . and so i did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , um yeah to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . so . grad a: right . so this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . yeah . grad a: but for overlap i imagine that does n't work at all , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: that 's it . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad a: but postdoc f: that 's true . but it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: um grad a: yep . postdoc f: just enormous , enormous savings . fantastic . professor g: that 's great . um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . so you have these twenty - four features . phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , a lot of them are spectral features . is there a a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ? phd c: no . grad a: yeah . it was is two . phd c: no . w w we originally we did that professor g: just phd c: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . it it works as well f with with without , uh , a lda or something . professor g: ok . ok . no , i was j curious . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i do n't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: yeah . phd d: right . professor g: but but yeah , it 's a postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . but then there 's another thing that also thilo 's involved with , which is , um ok , and and also da - dave gelbart . so there 's this this problem of and w and so we had this meeting . th - the also adam , before the the before you went away . uh we , um regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , um , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired i think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so we do n't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . we just have the the overlaps encoded in a simple bin . well , ok . so @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my my view and i think i mean , i had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . so , um , um , i spoke i had a meeting with dave gelbart on on and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . but , um , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . so , do you wan na say something about that ? phd c: yes . um , i talked with , uh , munich guys from from ludwi - ludwig maximilians university , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and they basically said they have they have , uh , a tool they developed themselves and they ca n't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: yeah . phd c: but , um , susanne bur - burger , who is at se cmu , he wa who was formally at in munich and w and is now at with cmu , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: excuse me . phd c: but it 's running under windows . postdoc f: under windows . phd c: so i 'm not sure if if if we can use it . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: she said she would give it to us . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: it would n't be a problem . and i 've got some some kind of manual down in my office . grad a: well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange windows machines to be available . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . we could uh , potentially so . grad a: so . postdoc f: i also wanted to be sure i mean , i 've i 've seen the this this is called praat , praat , which i guess means spee speech in dutch or something . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah , but then i 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . postdoc f: but in terms of it being windows versus professor g: yeah . grad a: no , no . praat is n't praat 's multi - platform . postdoc f: but i 'm just wondering , is ? phd c: no . no , praat yeah . yeah . postdoc f: oh ! i see . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: oh , i see . so praat may not be phd c: that 's not praat . it 's called `` trans transedit `` i think . postdoc f: it 's a different one . phd c: the the , uh the tool from from susanne . postdoc f: i see . oh , i see . ok . ok . alright . professor g: the other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh i mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: mmm , yeah . professor g: but , um , i think our outside sponsor is actually gon na kick in postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . so i do n't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . i think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . but as far a you know , uh , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . grad a: oh . phd b: but you s grad a: what our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . phd c: yeah . professor g: right . yeah . grad a: and and do what we can later to clean that up if we need to . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right . postdoc f: and and i was just thinking that , um , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: uh th - they 're making really quick progress . professor g: yeah . that 's great . postdoc f: and , um , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . and it 'll be i 'm i 'm i 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . professor g: that 's great . grad a: and did you , uh , forward morgan brian 's thing ? professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i sent it to , um who did i send that to ? i sent it to a list and i thought i sent it to the e to the local list . phd e: meeting recorder . grad a: oh , you did ? ok . so you probably did get that . postdoc f: you saw that ? so brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , uh that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gon na check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: i mean , basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . i mean , basically he 's he 's on it now . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: oh , that 's this is a new development . professor g: so so so this is so i it 'll happen . postdoc f: ok . super . super . ok . great . professor g: yeah . i mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: yeah . professor g: you know , who just does n't happen to be here anymore . someone else pays him . so phd b: but about the need for transcription , postdoc f: is n't that great ? phd b: i mean , do n't we did n't we previously decide that the ibm transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: so . yeah . postdoc f: yes . that 's true . phd b: so , i think having a good tool is worth something no matter what . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . s ok . that 's that 's a good point . grad a: yeah , and dave gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: good . grad a: and since he 's not here , i 'll repeat it to at least modify transcriber , which , if we do n't have something else that works , i think that 's a pretty good way of going . phd c: mmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we discussed on some methods to do it . my approach originally , and i 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because i was trying to display all the waveforms . but he pointed out that you do n't really have to . i think that 's a good point . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: that if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: yeah , exactly . and just keep those things separate . and and , um , dan ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: no . they can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: oh , yes , but well , uh , yes , but what i mean is that , uh , from the transcriber 's perspective , uh , those two functions are separate . and dan ellis 's hack handles the , um , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . grad a: but only to listen to , not to look at . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: um grad a: the waveform you 're looking at does n't change . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: that 's true . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: yeah , but that 's that 's ok , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . grad a: right . postdoc f: and then and then professor g: hmm . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: right . postdoc f: which then would also serve liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio . professor g: mm - hmm . have , uh , folks from nist been in contact with you ? postdoc f: not directly . i 'm trying to think if if i could have gotten it over a list . professor g: ok . postdoc f: i do n't i do n't think so . professor g: ok . well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in they seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . postdoc f: oh ! this was from before december . yeah . professor g: right . because they 're they 're presumably going to start recording next month . postdoc f: ok . ok . grad a: oh , we should definitely get with them then , professor g: so . grad a: and agree upon a format . though i do n't remember email on that . so was i not in the loop on that ? professor g: um . yeah , i do n't think i mailed anybody . i just think i told them to contact jane that , uh , if they had a grad a: oh , ok . postdoc f: that 's right . professor g: if , uh that that , uh , as the point person on it . grad a: yeah , i think that 's right . professor g: but grad a: just , uh professor g: so , yeah . maybe i 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to get that straight . postdoc f: ok . i 'm keeping the conventions absolutely as simple as possible . professor g: yeah . so is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at columbia , collections at at uw i mean dan dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . professor g: and collections at nist . so yeah . grad a: so . postdoc f: n there was also this , uh , email from dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: i do n't know if , uh , uh , we wan na , uh and dan gel - and dave gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . grad a: cross - correlation . professor g: oh , yeah . he was talking he was talking i mean , uh , we he had postdoc f: cross professor g: yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: cross professor g: i had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , uh , voice , uh you know , active miking , postdoc f: uh - huh . professor g: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . and and you basically compare the energy here to some function of all of the mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who who 's talking . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh and those those systems work very well , by the way , i mean , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: uh - huh . professor g: uh and , uh , those if boy , the guy i knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: hmm . professor g: so they 're it 's the the techniques work pretty well . postdoc f: fantastic . cuz there is one thing that we do n't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier . professor g: so . postdoc f: that that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: the the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do if that were available . professor g: yeah . so i think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: but . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh , and we also have these we have the advantage of having distant mikes too . so that , you cou yo grad a: yeah , although the the using the close - talking i think would be much better . would n't it ? postdoc f: yeah . professor g: um . i i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor g: i just it 'd be if i was actually working on it , i 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . i mean , the the the , uh but , uh , you certainly wan na use the close - talking , as a at least . grad a: right . professor g: i do n't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . what what are the different , uh , classes to to code , uh , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: um , to code d phd d: what you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: yeah . postdoc f: um , so at a meeting that was n't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and , um phd d: look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? the ? yeah ? yeah . postdoc f: yes , exactly . that has n't changed . so it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . and then below that there 're subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , you know , is it , uh , simply backchannel phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: or is it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . grad a: right . and i hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . phd d: huh . yeah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . well , one would phd d: we hope . grad a: yeah . who knows ? postdoc f: that 'd be that 'd be nice . i mean , i i i i 've phd b: so who 's gon na do that ? who 's gon na do forced alignment ? grad a: well , u uh , ibm was going to . um phd b: oh , ok . phd d: oh . grad a: and i imagine they still plan to but but , you know , i have n't spoken with them about that recently . phd b: ok . phd d: uh - huh . professor g: well , uh , my suggestion now is is on all of these things to , uh , contact brian . grad a: ok . i 'll do that . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: this is wonderful to have a direct contact like that . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: uh well , th lem me ask you this . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: it occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , um , by professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , uh , say professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . i could send brian the , um the transcript . i know these are er , uh , i could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: well , just talk to him about it . grad a: yep . postdoc f: good . professor g: i mean , you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: yeah ! professor g: uh , they and and , you know , the the organization always did wan na help us . postdoc f: super . super . professor g: it was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah , yeah . professor g: so , um , eh grad a: is he on the mailing list ? the meeting recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: oh ! grad a: we should add him . postdoc f: yeah . i i i do n't know for sure . professor g: yeah . phd e: did something happen , morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: add him . phd e: or ? professor g: no , i , eh , eh , p it it oc i h it 's yeah , something happened . i do n't know what . phd b: he asked for more work . phd e: huh . professor g: but he 's on it now . postdoc f: that would be like that 'd be like him . he 's great . professor g: right . so , uh , where are we ? maybe , uh , uh , brief well , let 's why do n't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: yeah . that 'd be great . professor g: that was that was a grad a: um , so one thing is that i did look on sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . but i think i need someone who knows more about mikes than i do , because i could n't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: oh , i probably would . i mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same . grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: so uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that . phd e: you could n't you could n't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: yep . when i looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . but my guess is that sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . and and so professor g: mm - hmm . well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: and there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: yeah . postdoc f: seems like there 'd be a ok . grad a: as i said , who knows ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: who who are we buying these from ? grad a: um , professor g: that 'd be grad a: i have it downstairs . i do n't remember off the top of my head . professor g: yeah . ok . yeah . we we can try and look at that together . grad a: and then , uh just in terms of how you wear them i mean , i had thought about this before . i mean , when when when you use a product like dragondictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . postdoc f: oh . grad a: but i felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gon na get people to really do it and maybe it was n't worth concentrating on . but professor g: well , i think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . that 's what i was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gon na get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . but i i think that it it does n't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: because , um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . grad a: oh . that 's true . professor g: i mean , i think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people are n't gon na be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: so this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , it 's gon na make you know , if if an - andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gon na be m wan na be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . grad a: right . professor g: so it 's it 's , uh , uh grad a: well , i 'll dig through the documentation to dragondictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: but it does happen . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , and any phd b: it 's interesting , uh , i talked to some ibm guys , uh , last january , i think , i was there . and so people who were working on the on their viavoice dictation product . professor g: yeah . phd b: and they said , uh , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . postdoc f: wow . phd b: so , anything to reduce breathing is is is a good thing . professor g: yeah . grad a: well , that 's the it seemed to me when i was using dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , uh an enormous amount . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: so you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it does n't the wind does n't hit the mike . phd b: right . mm - hmm . grad a: and then , uh everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . and then just close enough so that you get good volume . so you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: is uh - huh . professor g: i remember when i was when i i i i used , uh , um , a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , uh this was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . and , um , they were they were perturbed with me because i was breathing in instead of breathing out . and they had models for they they had markov models for br breathing out but they did n't have them for breathing in . phd d: yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: that 's interesting . well , what i wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly i mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . grad a: i mean , when when it 's on , you can see it . postdoc f: i do n't know if the if it 's professor g: i grad a: you can definitely see it . postdoc f: can you see the breathing ? grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: cuz i grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: oh . professor g: yeah . grad a: and so , you know , i 've i 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: i grad a: and the bar going up and down , and i 'm thinking , i could say something , but professor g: i mean , i think grad a: i do n't want to make people self - conscious . stop breathing ! professor g: it it 's going to be imperfect . postdoc f: yeah . uh - huh . professor g: you 're not gon na get it perfect . and you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: yeah . postdoc f: good . professor g: but not too far away . postdoc f: yeah , i professor g: and then , you know , i think there 's not much because you ca n't al you know , interfere w you ca n't fine tune the meeting that much , i think . grad a: right . phd d: yeah . professor g: it 's sort of postdoc f: that 's true . it just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . grad a: yep . and then also the position of the mike also . if it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . so so , like , yours is pretty far down below your mouth . yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: but mm - hmm . my my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: yeah . phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: i do n't know why that is . postdoc f: well , i mean , you yeah , of course . you 're you 're also uh , your volume is is greater . but but still , i mean , they they say grad a: i 've been eating a lot . postdoc f: i it makes their their job extremely easy . professor g: uh . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: and then there 's mass . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: anyway . postdoc f: i could say something about about the well , i do n't know what you wan na do . yeah . professor g: about what ? postdoc f: about the transcribers or anything or ? i do n't know . professor g: well , the other phd b: but , uh , just to to , um professor g: why do n't we do that ? phd b: one more remark , uh , concerning the sri recognizer . um . it is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so , grad a: so , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: mmm . phd b: um postdoc f: they are . phd b: ok . postdoc f: they 're putting eh , so in curly brackets they put `` inhale `` or `` breath `` . grad a: oh , great . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: it they and then in curly brackets they say `` laughter `` . now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , uh , m so they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: one is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . so , um , i i did s i did some double checking to look through i mean , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: it 's not so i do n't think it 's , um postdoc f: and that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying `` curly brackets laughing `` a after the unit . phd b: as as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words i think that 's sufficient , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: good . oh ! grad a: against they could do forced alignment . postdoc f: ok . phd b: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um you know , is pretty good . phd c: yeah . phd b: so as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: oh , i did n't know that . phd b: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models . postdoc f: ok . grad a: that would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: then phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and let me ask y and i got ta ask you one thing about that . grad a: when phd b: hmm . postdoc f: so , um , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . phd b: mm - hmm . right . postdoc f: but if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . does that matter ? phd d: yeah . phd b: well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . um , and that 's , uh i do n't think that we can do very well with that . grad a: right . phd b: so phd d: yeah . phd b: but , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: ok . grad a: so are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: uh is it ? phd d: huh . i i think it 's frequent in in the meeting . postdoc f: i think he 's right . yeah . phd b: we tried both . uh , currently , um , we use special words . there was a there 's actually a word for uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: mm - hmm . mouth stuff ? phd b: uh , mouth mouth stuff . and then laughter is a is a special word . grad a: how would we do that with the hybrid system ? professor g: same thing . grad a: so train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: same thing ? yeah . yeah . you ha oh . and each of these words has a dedicated phone . professor g: no grad a: oh , it does ? phd b: so the so the the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that . grad a: right . so in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone . professor g: yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: i mean , it 's it 's it 's always the same thing . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right ? i mean , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , uh different states . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then you would have three i mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: do whatever you want . phd b: and the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah , yeah . phd d: no . phd b: they actually are uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: to go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: and how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: it 's just a it 's just a word . grad a: it 's just a word in the language model . phd b: we train it like any other word . grad a: cool . phd b: yeah . we also tried , um , absorbing these uh , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , um phd d: yeah . phd b: yes . ok . anyway . we also tried absorbing that into the pause model i mean , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , um , it did n't work as well . so . grad a: huh . ok . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: can you hand me your digit form ? phd b: sorry . grad a: i just wan na mark that you did not read digits . professor g: ok . say hi for me . postdoc f: good . you you did get me to thinking about i i 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing i think it may be an individual thing . some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking . professor g: yeah . grad a: i was noticing that with dan in the one that we , uh we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: yeah . i think postdoc f: but i ca n't phd d: yeah . grad a: that th he has these little chuckles as he talks . postdoc f: yeah . ok . professor g: i 'm sure it 's very individual . and and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . we have this very , very tiny sample of of phd d: yeah . postdoc f: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: speech researchers ? professor g: uh , yeah . and yeah , r right . phd d: speech research . professor g: so , uh , who knows . uh yeah . why don why do n't we just since we 're on this vein , why do n't we just continue with , uh , what you were gon na say about the transcriptions postdoc f: ok . professor g: and ? postdoc f: um , um , the i i 'm really very for i 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . they are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um and i 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: cuz they 're gon na be transcribing it in a few days . postdoc f: no , they 're super . they 're the they very quick . phd e: ok . turn the mikes off and let 's talk . postdoc f: yeah , i know . i am i 'm serious . they 're just super . so i , um , e you know , i i brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because i think people can raise questions grad a: that 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and um , i trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . this also gives me a sense of you know , i can i can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . but the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . and then , um , i just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . they 're , um they 're trained in linguistics . grad a: good . oh , no . is that good or bad ? postdoc f: they got professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: well , they they 're very perce they 'll so one of them said `` well , you know , he really said `` n `` , not really `` and `` , phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: so what what should i do with that ? `` grad a: yeah . postdoc f: and i said , `` well for our purposes , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i do have a convention . if it 's an a noncanonical p `` that one , i think we you know , with eric 's work , i sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . but i told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like i said in one thing , professor g: ok . yes . postdoc f: and i gave my my example , like i said , `` microfon `` in instead of `` microphone `` . did n't bother i knew it when i said it . i remember s thinking `` oh , that 's not correctly pronounced `` . but it but i thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . grad a: you 'll self - repair . yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: but i have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native english american english speaker , you know that i did n't mean to say `` microfon . `` then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets `` pron error `` . and , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . but , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the `` nnn `` . `` he said `` nnn `` , not `` and `` . what shall i do with that ? `` i mean , they 're very perceptive . and and s several of them are trained in ipa . c they really could do phonetic transcription if if we wanted them to . professor g: mm - hmm . right . well well , you know , it might be something we 'd wan na do with some , uh , s small subset of the whole thing . grad a: hmm . where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: i think professor g: we certainly would n't wan na do it with everything . postdoc f: and i 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . i mean , if , uh so i i told them that , um , we do n't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: and i also m i think they know that the data p source is limited and i may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although i hope to . professor g: the other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . postdoc f: and oh , that 'd be so super . they would be so s so terrific . grad a: i mean , this was something that we were talking about . professor g: right ? grad a: we could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . right ? one for each participant . so they could by hand professor g: well , that 's one way to do it . grad a: yeah . professor g: but i 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , that 's right . professor g: right ? postdoc f: and with the right in interface professor g: given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: which we know from the steve 's experience with the switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . and and you know , it took them i do n't know how many months to do to get four hours . and so that has n't been really our focus . uh , we can consider it . but , i mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but anyway , i 'm i 'm open to c our consideration . postdoc f: that 'd be great . phd d: hmm . professor g: i i do n't wan na say that by fiat . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: i 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and , uh , uh , phd d: hmm . professor g: i i i think this year we we actually , uh , can do it . postdoc f: oh , wonderful . professor g: it 's a we have we have due to @ @ { comment } variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: so i do n't wan na hire a grad a: calendar year or ? professor g: uh , i mean , calendar year two thousand one . grad a: ok . professor g: yeah . so it 's uh , it 's we do n't wan na hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: full - time . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . but having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding . postdoc f: wonderful . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and then school will start in in the sixt on the sixteenth . professor g: so . postdoc f: some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point . professor g: yeah . phd e: are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: but some of them are . grad a: wow . postdoc f: yeah . well , why do i would n't say forty - hour weeks . no . but what i mean is oh , i should n't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . no . i th i i would say they 're probably they do n't have o they do n't have other things that are taking away their time . grad a: i do n't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription . phd e: hmm . postdoc f: but it 's you ca n't . professor g: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: no . you 're right . it 's i it would be too taxing . but , um , they 're putting in a lot of professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and and i checked them over . professor g: i postdoc f: i i i have n't checked them all , but just spot - checking . they 're fantastic . grad a: i think it would be professor g: i remember when we were transcribing berp , uh , uh , uh , ron kay , uh , volunteered to to do some of that . and , he was the first first stuff he did was transcribing chuck . and he 's saying `` you you know , i always thought chuck spoke really well . `` postdoc f: yeah . yeah . well , you know , and i also thought , y liz has this , eh , you know , and i do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . these people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: we 'd have to mark them . postdoc f: or whatever . so , um . professor g: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: i think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: yeah . grad a: cuz i 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . yeah . th - that 'd be i think that 's a a good idea . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: you know , there 's also , the e in my mind , i think a an - andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , um , we have n't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from ibm , and it may just be , you know , pristine . but on the other hand , given the lesser interface cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um professor g: it could be that they will uh theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . postdoc f: something like that . professor g: maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gon na do these alignments , which will also clear things up . postdoc f: that 's that 's true . al - although you have to s do n't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: well , tha that 's that 's debatable . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? i mean , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , uh , clean things up . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? so it it 's got its own objective criterion . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough i mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back back when chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . grad a: wrong . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . professor g: but it 's o k . you start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that does n't really look too bad . postdoc f: oh , excellent . ok . professor g: so so i think using a a good aligner , um , actually can can help a lot . um . but , uh , you know , they both help each other . if you have a if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . if you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so so postdoc f: excellent . i guess there 's another aspect , too , and i do n't know uh , this this is very possibly a different , uh , topic . but , uh , just let me say with reference to this idea of , um , higher - order organization within meetings . so like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um e i mean , i i i did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: already transcribed meeting . and i do n't know if , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wan na do with each meeting , sort of like a , um it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: i mean , i i i do n't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . i do n't know i if that 's something that i should do when i look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: but this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . ok . professor g: yeah . meaning really is n't my thing . um grad a: i think it just whoever is interested can do that . i mean , so if someone wants to use that data postdoc f: ok . professor g: we 're running a little short here . postdoc f: that 's fine . professor g: we , uh , uh , cou trying to postdoc f: i 'm finished . professor g: eh , was p well , you know , the thing i 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: oh , yeah . professor g: and and i have n't heard , uh , from jose yet . postdoc f: oh , yes . phd d: ok . what do you want ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so grad a: we could skip the digits . professor g: uh grad a: we do n't have to read digits each time . professor g: uh i i i think it you know , another another bunch of digits . more data is good . grad a: ok . phd d: yeah . sure . professor g: so so i 'd like to do that . but i think , do you , maybe , eh ? did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: yeah . it 's it 's prepared . professor g: or what was that ? yeah . postdoc f: oh , k sorry . professor g: uh , how long a ? phd d: i i think it 's it 's fast , because , uh , i have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . eh , um , eh , in the in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the by the , um , variance . um , i th i professor g: yeah . phd d: the other , uh the the last w uh , meeting eh , i do n't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it does n't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: yes . right . phd d: and it was a problem , uh , with the scale . grad a: with what ? phd d: eh , the scale . postdoc f: scale . grad a: scale . phd d: eh , and i i change the scale and we can see the the variance . professor g: ok . but the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: right ? phd d: the distribution the distribution is is similar . professor g: ok . so that 's that 's that 's enough then . ok . phd d: yeah . professor g: no , i mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: so , i i think we have to start uh , i mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh what we said before is that , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: um , it looks like , at least that you have n't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: um , i i 'm i 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . these things l @ @ seems like there should be , phd d: yeah . professor g: but but you do n't want to keep , uh keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . but , i mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: yeah . professor g: so which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . um but , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in spain , phd d: yeah . professor g: which is to say , do n't worry so much about the , uh , features . phd d: yeah . professor g: that is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling . phd d: yeah . professor g: you know , have a have a couple markov models and and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . phd d: hmm . professor g: and let the , uh , uh , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . phd d: yeah . professor g: i i , um , i think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . i think that you 'd end up with a better system overall . phd d: yeah . professor g: but given the limitation in time and given the fact that javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: maybe that 's a better place to go . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so . phd d: i i i think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: yeah . phd d: and wh what nnn , how far is professor g: maybe . yeah . phd d: and , i i have prepared the the pitch tracker now . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: and i hope the the next week i will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . professor g: i see . phd d: and , nnn , nnn professor g: ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ? phd c: no . no . phd d: no . professor g: oh . maybe m you could , you kn uh show thilo that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . sure . phd d: yeah . professor g: cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . phd d: yeah . professor g: but if you included , uh , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: ok . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah , but i 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector i i i used up to now , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: that 's right . but i think javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . phd d: ah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think javier 's might be able to . phd c: so . professor g: n n grad a: it does n't have the same gaus - uh , h m m modeling , phd c: yeah . grad a: which is i think a drawback . phd c: ok . grad a: but , uh professor g: well , it 's sort of has a simple one . phd d: mmm , yeah . grad a: does it ? professor g: right ? it 's it 's just it 's just a is n't it just a gaussian phd d: yeah . professor g: for each ? grad a: yeah . and then he ch you choose optimal splitting . phd d: hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . oh , it does n't have it does n't have any temporal , uh ? grad a: maybe i 'm misremembering , but i did not think it had a markov professor g: i thought it yeah . i gues i guess i do n't remember either . uh . it 's been a while . phd c: yeah . uh , i could have a look at it . phd d: javier professor g: uh . phd c: so . phd d: you mean ja - eh , eh , javier program ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: no , javier di does n't worked with , uh , a markov grad a: yeah , i did n't think so . phd d: he on only train professor g: oh , ok . so he 's just he just computes a gaussian over potential grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . it was only gaussian . professor g: oh , i see . i see . grad a: and so i i think it would work fine for detecting overlap . phd d: this is the idea . professor g: and and grad a: it 's just , uh , that i it he has the two - pass issue that what he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . and that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . phd c: ok . grad a: and so those are the putative places where he tries . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . ok . grad a: and right now he 's doing that with silence and that does n't work with the meeting recorder . so if we used another method to get the first pass , i think it would probably work . phd c: yeah . yeah . sure . yeah . yeah , ok . grad a: it 's a good method . as long as the len as long the segments are long enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: that 's the other problem . phd c: so professor g: o - k ok . so let me go back to what you had , though . phd c: yeah . professor g: um . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: the other thing one could do is could n't i mean , it 's so you have two categories phd c: yeah . professor g: and you have markov models for each . could n't you have a third category ? so you have , uh you have , uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: he has this on his board actually . do n't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: right ? and then you have a markov model for each ? phd c: um i 'm not sure . i i thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . but it 's not too easy , i think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system i have now . but it it it could be possible , i think , professor g: i see . i see . phd c: in principle . professor g: yeah , i mean , i this is all pretty gross . phd d: yeah . professor g: i mean , the th the reason why , uh , i was suggesting originally that we look at features is because i thought , well , we 're doing something we have n't done before , phd c: yeah . professor g: we should at least look at the space and understand phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: it seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: i had the impression . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . grad a: right . phd c: yeah . professor g: so those are all things that should be there . phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: so far , um , uh , jose has has been by the way , i was told i should be calling you pepe , but phd d: yeah . professor g: by your friends , but anyway , phd d: yeah . professor g: um , uh , the has has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then there 's , you know is it energy ? is it log energy ? is it lpc residual energy ? is it is it is it , uh , delta of those things ? uh , what is it no obviously , just a simple number absolute number is n't gon na work . so it should be with compared to what ? should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: yeah . professor g: or , you know , how b short should they be ? so , phd d: hmm . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . phd d: yeah . professor g: so i i still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . phd d: yeah . to overrule , yeah . professor g: so pitch - related and harmonic - related , i 'm i 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: but it seems like if we just wan na get something to work , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: that , uh , their suggestion of of th - they were suggesting going to markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what javier did . and one of those things , looking at the statistical component , phd d: one . phd c: yeah . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , um eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: but , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the javier software ? eh , i mean , the , uh the , uh the bic criterion , the the t to train the the gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . i mean , eh , i i i think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step i mean , the the classifier what were the classifier from javier or classifier from thilo ? w what happen with the second step ? i i mean , what what happen with the , eh the , uh , clu the , uh the clu the clustering process ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: using the the gaussian . grad a: you mean javier 's ? phd d: yeah . grad a: what do you mean ? phd d: i i mean , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step does n't work well , eh , we have another problem . grad a: i yeah . i had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: n grad a: and it worked pretty well , but i have n't worked with it a lot . so what i d i d i took a hand - segmented sample phd d: nnn , yeah . grad a: and i added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: yeah . grad a: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries . phd d: oh . yeah . but is is if grad a: but this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: but it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: right . so if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to javier 's and it does n't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: uh yeah . the n n yeah . no . the demonstration by hand . segmentation by hand i i i think is the fast experiment . grad a: yeah . i think that 's probably worthwhile doing . phd d: uh , we can prove that the professor g: uh - huh . grad a: whether it 'll work or not . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and gaussian grad a: yeah . professor g: yeah . grad a: yep . y do you know where his software is ? have you used it at all ? phd d: i yeah have . i have . grad a: ok . phd d: grad a: so . i i have as well , so if you need need help let me know . phd d: ok . professor g: let 's read some digits . grad a: ok . uuh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we are { disfmarker }

there is no channel identifier to help in encoding speaker overlaps . speech uttered while laughing is problematic for asr . so far , speaker mn005 's attempts to detect speaker overlap have been unsuccessful , as it has not been possible to normalize energy as a reliable indicator of overlap .

what ’ s the status of transcription ? </s> grad a: ok . we seem to be recording . professor g: alright ! grad a: so , sorry about not professor g: we 're not crashing . phd d: number four . grad a: not pre - doing everything . the lunch went a little later than i was expecting , chuck . phd e: hmm ? professor g: ok . phd b: chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ? grad a: yep . pretty much . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . does anybody have an agenda ? grad a: no . postdoc f: well , i 'm i sent a couple of items . they 're they 're sort of practical . professor g: i thought somebody had . postdoc f: i do n't know if you 're professor g: yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: if if that 's too practical for what we 're focused on . grad a: i mean , we do n't want anything too practical . professor g: yeah , we only want th useless things . grad a: yeah , that would be professor g: yeah . no , why do n't we talk about practical things ? postdoc f: ok . professor g: sure . postdoc f: well , um , i can give you an update on the transcription effort . professor g: great . postdoc f: uh , maybe raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: ok , transcription , uh , microphone issues postdoc f: and then maybe ask , th uh , these guys . the we have great great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . professor g: ok . grad a: well , we have steps forward . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , it 's a it 's a big improvement . phd c: i would prefer this . professor g: yes . yeah , well . ok . uh phd d: we talk about the the results of professor g: you have some yeah . grad a: i have a little bit of iram stuff professor g: ok . phd d: use grad a: but i 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: uh , bigram ? grad a: iram . phd d: iram . professor g: iram . grad a: iram , bigram , professor g: well , m maybe . phd d: bi - bigram . grad a: you know . professor g: yeah , let 's let 's see where we are at three - thirty . phd b: hmm . professor g: um phd b: since , uh since i have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? professor g: well phd c: which is ? grad a: what 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part . phd e: please specify . professor g: but phd b: well , uh , i guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i think that would be a good thing to start with . phd b: yeah . professor g: ok . um , and , um , the other thing , uh , which i 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting i had the other day when i was in spain with , uh , manolo pardo and javier , uh , ferreiros , who was here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . so , in what javier did before when they were doing , um h he was looking for , uh , speaker change points . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: um . as a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , uh , a putative , uh , speaker change point . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . and for broadcast news , that was fine . here obviously it 's not . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: uh - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: nnn , yeah . professor g: so then you 've got you already have the super - structure with gaussians and h - you know , simple h m ms and so forth . and you you might so there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because i i thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . phd d: yeah . professor g: but , uh , on the other hand i saw that the they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit because ultimately we 're gon na end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple hmm and you 're testing the hypothesis that , uh , there is a change . phd d: yeah . professor g: so so anyway , i just reporting that . phd d: ok . professor g: but , uh , uh so . yeah , why do n't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: yeah . do i i hear you you did n't phd c: speech - nonspeech ? ok . postdoc f: uh - huh . yeah . phd c: um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and what i did so far is i just used our old munich system , which is an hmm - ba based system with gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . and it was a system which used only one gaussian for silence and one gaussian for speech . and now i added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech . professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: and i did some training on on one dialogue , which was transcribed by yeah . we we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription . phd d: jose . phd c: adam , dave , and i , we did , for that dialogue and i trained it on that . and i did some pre - segmentations for for jane . and i 'm not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say . they they can use it or ? postdoc f: uh , they they think it 's a terrific improvement . and , um , it real it just makes a a world of difference . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: and , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: yeah . uh , yeah . that that was one one one thing , uh , why i added more mixtures for for the speech . so i saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and so i did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: and did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: i did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: right . phd c: and that was enough to to train the system . phd b: w what ? phd d: yeah . phd c: and so it it adapts , uh , on while running . so . phd b: what kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ? phd c: hopefully . phd d: ok . phd c: it 's just our our old munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd b: mm - hmm . phd c: and four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . so it 's twenty - four twenty - four features . phd b: mmm . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and you also provided me with several different versions , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: which i compared . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and so you change parameters . what do you wan na say something about the parameters that you change ? phd c: yeah . you can specify the minimum length of speech or and silence portions which you want . and so i did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , um yeah to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . so . grad a: right . so this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . yeah . grad a: but for overlap i imagine that does n't work at all , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: that 's it . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad a: but postdoc f: that 's true . but it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: um grad a: yep . postdoc f: just enormous , enormous savings . fantastic . professor g: that 's great . um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . so you have these twenty - four features . phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , a lot of them are spectral features . is there a a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ? phd c: no . grad a: yeah . it was is two . phd c: no . w w we originally we did that professor g: just phd c: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . it it works as well f with with without , uh , a lda or something . professor g: ok . ok . no , i was j curious . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i do n't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: yeah . phd d: right . professor g: but but yeah , it 's a postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . but then there 's another thing that also thilo 's involved with , which is , um ok , and and also da - dave gelbart . so there 's this this problem of and w and so we had this meeting . th - the also adam , before the the before you went away . uh we , um regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , um , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired i think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so we do n't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . we just have the the overlaps encoded in a simple bin . well , ok . so @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my my view and i think i mean , i had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . so , um , um , i spoke i had a meeting with dave gelbart on on and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . but , um , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . so , do you wan na say something about that ? phd c: yes . um , i talked with , uh , munich guys from from ludwi - ludwig maximilians university , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and they basically said they have they have , uh , a tool they developed themselves and they ca n't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: yeah . phd c: but , um , susanne bur - burger , who is at se cmu , he wa who was formally at in munich and w and is now at with cmu , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: excuse me . phd c: but it 's running under windows . postdoc f: under windows . phd c: so i 'm not sure if if if we can use it . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: she said she would give it to us . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: it would n't be a problem . and i 've got some some kind of manual down in my office . grad a: well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange windows machines to be available . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . we could uh , potentially so . grad a: so . postdoc f: i also wanted to be sure i mean , i 've i 've seen the this this is called praat , praat , which i guess means spee speech in dutch or something . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah , but then i 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . postdoc f: but in terms of it being windows versus professor g: yeah . grad a: no , no . praat is n't praat 's multi - platform . postdoc f: but i 'm just wondering , is ? phd c: no . no , praat yeah . yeah . postdoc f: oh ! i see . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: oh , i see . so praat may not be phd c: that 's not praat . it 's called `` trans transedit `` i think . postdoc f: it 's a different one . phd c: the the , uh the tool from from susanne . postdoc f: i see . oh , i see . ok . ok . alright . professor g: the other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh i mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: mmm , yeah . professor g: but , um , i think our outside sponsor is actually gon na kick in postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . so i do n't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . i think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . but as far a you know , uh , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . grad a: oh . phd b: but you s grad a: what our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . phd c: yeah . professor g: right . yeah . grad a: and and do what we can later to clean that up if we need to . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right . postdoc f: and and i was just thinking that , um , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: uh th - they 're making really quick progress . professor g: yeah . that 's great . postdoc f: and , um , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . and it 'll be i 'm i 'm i 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . professor g: that 's great . grad a: and did you , uh , forward morgan brian 's thing ? professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i sent it to , um who did i send that to ? i sent it to a list and i thought i sent it to the e to the local list . phd e: meeting recorder . grad a: oh , you did ? ok . so you probably did get that . postdoc f: you saw that ? so brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , uh that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gon na check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: i mean , basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . i mean , basically he 's he 's on it now . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: oh , that 's this is a new development . professor g: so so so this is so i it 'll happen . postdoc f: ok . super . super . ok . great . professor g: yeah . i mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: yeah . professor g: you know , who just does n't happen to be here anymore . someone else pays him . so phd b: but about the need for transcription , postdoc f: is n't that great ? phd b: i mean , do n't we did n't we previously decide that the ibm transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: so . yeah . postdoc f: yes . that 's true . phd b: so , i think having a good tool is worth something no matter what . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . s ok . that 's that 's a good point . grad a: yeah , and dave gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: good . grad a: and since he 's not here , i 'll repeat it to at least modify transcriber , which , if we do n't have something else that works , i think that 's a pretty good way of going . phd c: mmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we discussed on some methods to do it . my approach originally , and i 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because i was trying to display all the waveforms . but he pointed out that you do n't really have to . i think that 's a good point . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: that if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: yeah , exactly . and just keep those things separate . and and , um , dan ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: no . they can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: oh , yes , but well , uh , yes , but what i mean is that , uh , from the transcriber 's perspective , uh , those two functions are separate . and dan ellis 's hack handles the , um , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . grad a: but only to listen to , not to look at . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: um grad a: the waveform you 're looking at does n't change . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: that 's true . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: yeah , but that 's that 's ok , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . grad a: right . postdoc f: and then and then professor g: hmm . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: right . postdoc f: which then would also serve liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio . professor g: mm - hmm . have , uh , folks from nist been in contact with you ? postdoc f: not directly . i 'm trying to think if if i could have gotten it over a list . professor g: ok . postdoc f: i do n't i do n't think so . professor g: ok . well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in they seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . postdoc f: oh ! this was from before december . yeah . professor g: right . because they 're they 're presumably going to start recording next month . postdoc f: ok . ok . grad a: oh , we should definitely get with them then , professor g: so . grad a: and agree upon a format . though i do n't remember email on that . so was i not in the loop on that ? professor g: um . yeah , i do n't think i mailed anybody . i just think i told them to contact jane that , uh , if they had a grad a: oh , ok . postdoc f: that 's right . professor g: if , uh that that , uh , as the point person on it . grad a: yeah , i think that 's right . professor g: but grad a: just , uh professor g: so , yeah . maybe i 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to get that straight . postdoc f: ok . i 'm keeping the conventions absolutely as simple as possible . professor g: yeah . so is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at columbia , collections at at uw i mean dan dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . professor g: and collections at nist . so yeah . grad a: so . postdoc f: n there was also this , uh , email from dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: i do n't know if , uh , uh , we wan na , uh and dan gel - and dave gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . grad a: cross - correlation . professor g: oh , yeah . he was talking he was talking i mean , uh , we he had postdoc f: cross professor g: yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: cross professor g: i had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , uh , voice , uh you know , active miking , postdoc f: uh - huh . professor g: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . and and you basically compare the energy here to some function of all of the mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who who 's talking . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh and those those systems work very well , by the way , i mean , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: uh - huh . professor g: uh and , uh , those if boy , the guy i knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: hmm . professor g: so they 're it 's the the techniques work pretty well . postdoc f: fantastic . cuz there is one thing that we do n't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier . professor g: so . postdoc f: that that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: the the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do if that were available . professor g: yeah . so i think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: but . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh , and we also have these we have the advantage of having distant mikes too . so that , you cou yo grad a: yeah , although the the using the close - talking i think would be much better . would n't it ? postdoc f: yeah . professor g: um . i i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor g: i just it 'd be if i was actually working on it , i 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . i mean , the the the , uh but , uh , you certainly wan na use the close - talking , as a at least . grad a: right . professor g: i do n't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . what what are the different , uh , classes to to code , uh , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: um , to code d phd d: what you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: yeah . postdoc f: um , so at a meeting that was n't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and , um phd d: look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? the ? yeah ? yeah . postdoc f: yes , exactly . that has n't changed . so it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . and then below that there 're subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , you know , is it , uh , simply backchannel phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: or is it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . grad a: right . and i hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . phd d: huh . yeah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . well , one would phd d: we hope . grad a: yeah . who knows ? postdoc f: that 'd be that 'd be nice . i mean , i i i i 've phd b: so who 's gon na do that ? who 's gon na do forced alignment ? grad a: well , u uh , ibm was going to . um phd b: oh , ok . phd d: oh . grad a: and i imagine they still plan to but but , you know , i have n't spoken with them about that recently . phd b: ok . phd d: uh - huh . professor g: well , uh , my suggestion now is is on all of these things to , uh , contact brian . grad a: ok . i 'll do that . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: this is wonderful to have a direct contact like that . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: uh well , th lem me ask you this . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: it occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , um , by professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , uh , say professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . i could send brian the , um the transcript . i know these are er , uh , i could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: well , just talk to him about it . grad a: yep . postdoc f: good . professor g: i mean , you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: yeah ! professor g: uh , they and and , you know , the the organization always did wan na help us . postdoc f: super . super . professor g: it was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah , yeah . professor g: so , um , eh grad a: is he on the mailing list ? the meeting recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: oh ! grad a: we should add him . postdoc f: yeah . i i i do n't know for sure . professor g: yeah . phd e: did something happen , morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: add him . phd e: or ? professor g: no , i , eh , eh , p it it oc i h it 's yeah , something happened . i do n't know what . phd b: he asked for more work . phd e: huh . professor g: but he 's on it now . postdoc f: that would be like that 'd be like him . he 's great . professor g: right . so , uh , where are we ? maybe , uh , uh , brief well , let 's why do n't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: yeah . that 'd be great . professor g: that was that was a grad a: um , so one thing is that i did look on sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . but i think i need someone who knows more about mikes than i do , because i could n't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: oh , i probably would . i mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same . grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: so uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that . phd e: you could n't you could n't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: yep . when i looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . but my guess is that sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . and and so professor g: mm - hmm . well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: and there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: yeah . postdoc f: seems like there 'd be a ok . grad a: as i said , who knows ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: who who are we buying these from ? grad a: um , professor g: that 'd be grad a: i have it downstairs . i do n't remember off the top of my head . professor g: yeah . ok . yeah . we we can try and look at that together . grad a: and then , uh just in terms of how you wear them i mean , i had thought about this before . i mean , when when when you use a product like dragondictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . postdoc f: oh . grad a: but i felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gon na get people to really do it and maybe it was n't worth concentrating on . but professor g: well , i think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . that 's what i was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gon na get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . but i i think that it it does n't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: because , um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . grad a: oh . that 's true . professor g: i mean , i think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people are n't gon na be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: so this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , it 's gon na make you know , if if an - andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gon na be m wan na be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . grad a: right . professor g: so it 's it 's , uh , uh grad a: well , i 'll dig through the documentation to dragondictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: but it does happen . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , and any phd b: it 's interesting , uh , i talked to some ibm guys , uh , last january , i think , i was there . and so people who were working on the on their viavoice dictation product . professor g: yeah . phd b: and they said , uh , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . postdoc f: wow . phd b: so , anything to reduce breathing is is is a good thing . professor g: yeah . grad a: well , that 's the it seemed to me when i was using dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , uh an enormous amount . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: so you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it does n't the wind does n't hit the mike . phd b: right . mm - hmm . grad a: and then , uh everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . and then just close enough so that you get good volume . so you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: is uh - huh . professor g: i remember when i was when i i i i used , uh , um , a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , uh this was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . and , um , they were they were perturbed with me because i was breathing in instead of breathing out . and they had models for they they had markov models for br breathing out but they did n't have them for breathing in . phd d: yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: that 's interesting . well , what i wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly i mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . grad a: i mean , when when it 's on , you can see it . postdoc f: i do n't know if the if it 's professor g: i grad a: you can definitely see it . postdoc f: can you see the breathing ? grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: cuz i grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: oh . professor g: yeah . grad a: and so , you know , i 've i 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: i grad a: and the bar going up and down , and i 'm thinking , i could say something , but professor g: i mean , i think grad a: i do n't want to make people self - conscious . stop breathing ! professor g: it it 's going to be imperfect . postdoc f: yeah . uh - huh . professor g: you 're not gon na get it perfect . and you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: yeah . postdoc f: good . professor g: but not too far away . postdoc f: yeah , i professor g: and then , you know , i think there 's not much because you ca n't al you know , interfere w you ca n't fine tune the meeting that much , i think . grad a: right . phd d: yeah . professor g: it 's sort of postdoc f: that 's true . it just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . grad a: yep . and then also the position of the mike also . if it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . so so , like , yours is pretty far down below your mouth . yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: but mm - hmm . my my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: yeah . phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: i do n't know why that is . postdoc f: well , i mean , you yeah , of course . you 're you 're also uh , your volume is is greater . but but still , i mean , they they say grad a: i 've been eating a lot . postdoc f: i it makes their their job extremely easy . professor g: uh . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: and then there 's mass . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: anyway . postdoc f: i could say something about about the well , i do n't know what you wan na do . yeah . professor g: about what ? postdoc f: about the transcribers or anything or ? i do n't know . professor g: well , the other phd b: but , uh , just to to , um professor g: why do n't we do that ? phd b: one more remark , uh , concerning the sri recognizer . um . it is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so , grad a: so , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: mmm . phd b: um postdoc f: they are . phd b: ok . postdoc f: they 're putting eh , so in curly brackets they put `` inhale `` or `` breath `` . grad a: oh , great . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: it they and then in curly brackets they say `` laughter `` . now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , uh , m so they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: one is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . so , um , i i did s i did some double checking to look through i mean , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: it 's not so i do n't think it 's , um postdoc f: and that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying `` curly brackets laughing `` a after the unit . phd b: as as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words i think that 's sufficient , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: good . oh ! grad a: against they could do forced alignment . postdoc f: ok . phd b: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um you know , is pretty good . phd c: yeah . phd b: so as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: oh , i did n't know that . phd b: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models . postdoc f: ok . grad a: that would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: then phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and let me ask y and i got ta ask you one thing about that . grad a: when phd b: hmm . postdoc f: so , um , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . phd b: mm - hmm . right . postdoc f: but if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . does that matter ? phd d: yeah . phd b: well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . um , and that 's , uh i do n't think that we can do very well with that . grad a: right . phd b: so phd d: yeah . phd b: but , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: ok . grad a: so are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: uh is it ? phd d: huh . i i think it 's frequent in in the meeting . postdoc f: i think he 's right . yeah . phd b: we tried both . uh , currently , um , we use special words . there was a there 's actually a word for uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: mm - hmm . mouth stuff ? phd b: uh , mouth mouth stuff . and then laughter is a is a special word . grad a: how would we do that with the hybrid system ? professor g: same thing . grad a: so train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: same thing ? yeah . yeah . you ha oh . and each of these words has a dedicated phone . professor g: no grad a: oh , it does ? phd b: so the so the the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that . grad a: right . so in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone . professor g: yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: i mean , it 's it 's it 's always the same thing . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right ? i mean , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , uh different states . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then you would have three i mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: do whatever you want . phd b: and the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah , yeah . phd d: no . phd b: they actually are uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: to go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: and how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: it 's just a it 's just a word . grad a: it 's just a word in the language model . phd b: we train it like any other word . grad a: cool . phd b: yeah . we also tried , um , absorbing these uh , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , um phd d: yeah . phd b: yes . ok . anyway . we also tried absorbing that into the pause model i mean , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , um , it did n't work as well . so . grad a: huh . ok . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: can you hand me your digit form ? phd b: sorry . grad a: i just wan na mark that you did not read digits . professor g: ok . say hi for me . postdoc f: good . you you did get me to thinking about i i 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing i think it may be an individual thing . some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking . professor g: yeah . grad a: i was noticing that with dan in the one that we , uh we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: yeah . i think postdoc f: but i ca n't phd d: yeah . grad a: that th he has these little chuckles as he talks . postdoc f: yeah . ok . professor g: i 'm sure it 's very individual . and and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . we have this very , very tiny sample of of phd d: yeah . postdoc f: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: speech researchers ? professor g: uh , yeah . and yeah , r right . phd d: speech research . professor g: so , uh , who knows . uh yeah . why don why do n't we just since we 're on this vein , why do n't we just continue with , uh , what you were gon na say about the transcriptions postdoc f: ok . professor g: and ? postdoc f: um , um , the i i 'm really very for i 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . they are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um and i 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: cuz they 're gon na be transcribing it in a few days . postdoc f: no , they 're super . they 're the they very quick . phd e: ok . turn the mikes off and let 's talk . postdoc f: yeah , i know . i am i 'm serious . they 're just super . so i , um , e you know , i i brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because i think people can raise questions grad a: that 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and um , i trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . this also gives me a sense of you know , i can i can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . but the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . and then , um , i just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . they 're , um they 're trained in linguistics . grad a: good . oh , no . is that good or bad ? postdoc f: they got professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: well , they they 're very perce they 'll so one of them said `` well , you know , he really said `` n `` , not really `` and `` , phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: so what what should i do with that ? `` grad a: yeah . postdoc f: and i said , `` well for our purposes , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i do have a convention . if it 's an a noncanonical p `` that one , i think we you know , with eric 's work , i sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . but i told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like i said in one thing , professor g: ok . yes . postdoc f: and i gave my my example , like i said , `` microfon `` in instead of `` microphone `` . did n't bother i knew it when i said it . i remember s thinking `` oh , that 's not correctly pronounced `` . but it but i thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . grad a: you 'll self - repair . yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: but i have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native english american english speaker , you know that i did n't mean to say `` microfon . `` then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets `` pron error `` . and , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . but , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the `` nnn `` . `` he said `` nnn `` , not `` and `` . what shall i do with that ? `` i mean , they 're very perceptive . and and s several of them are trained in ipa . c they really could do phonetic transcription if if we wanted them to . professor g: mm - hmm . right . well well , you know , it might be something we 'd wan na do with some , uh , s small subset of the whole thing . grad a: hmm . where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: i think professor g: we certainly would n't wan na do it with everything . postdoc f: and i 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . i mean , if , uh so i i told them that , um , we do n't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: and i also m i think they know that the data p source is limited and i may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although i hope to . professor g: the other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . postdoc f: and oh , that 'd be so super . they would be so s so terrific . grad a: i mean , this was something that we were talking about . professor g: right ? grad a: we could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . right ? one for each participant . so they could by hand professor g: well , that 's one way to do it . grad a: yeah . professor g: but i 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , that 's right . professor g: right ? postdoc f: and with the right in interface professor g: given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: which we know from the steve 's experience with the switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . and and you know , it took them i do n't know how many months to do to get four hours . and so that has n't been really our focus . uh , we can consider it . but , i mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but anyway , i 'm i 'm open to c our consideration . postdoc f: that 'd be great . phd d: hmm . professor g: i i do n't wan na say that by fiat . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: i 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and , uh , uh , phd d: hmm . professor g: i i i think this year we we actually , uh , can do it . postdoc f: oh , wonderful . professor g: it 's a we have we have due to @ @ { comment } variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: so i do n't wan na hire a grad a: calendar year or ? professor g: uh , i mean , calendar year two thousand one . grad a: ok . professor g: yeah . so it 's uh , it 's we do n't wan na hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: full - time . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . but having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding . postdoc f: wonderful . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and then school will start in in the sixt on the sixteenth . professor g: so . postdoc f: some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point . professor g: yeah . phd e: are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: but some of them are . grad a: wow . postdoc f: yeah . well , why do i would n't say forty - hour weeks . no . but what i mean is oh , i should n't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . no . i th i i would say they 're probably they do n't have o they do n't have other things that are taking away their time . grad a: i do n't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription . phd e: hmm . postdoc f: but it 's you ca n't . professor g: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: no . you 're right . it 's i it would be too taxing . but , um , they 're putting in a lot of professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and and i checked them over . professor g: i postdoc f: i i i have n't checked them all , but just spot - checking . they 're fantastic . grad a: i think it would be professor g: i remember when we were transcribing berp , uh , uh , uh , ron kay , uh , volunteered to to do some of that . and , he was the first first stuff he did was transcribing chuck . and he 's saying `` you you know , i always thought chuck spoke really well . `` postdoc f: yeah . yeah . well , you know , and i also thought , y liz has this , eh , you know , and i do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . these people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: we 'd have to mark them . postdoc f: or whatever . so , um . professor g: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: i think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: yeah . grad a: cuz i 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . yeah . th - that 'd be i think that 's a a good idea . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: you know , there 's also , the e in my mind , i think a an - andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , um , we have n't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from ibm , and it may just be , you know , pristine . but on the other hand , given the lesser interface cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um professor g: it could be that they will uh theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . postdoc f: something like that . professor g: maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gon na do these alignments , which will also clear things up . postdoc f: that 's that 's true . al - although you have to s do n't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: well , tha that 's that 's debatable . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? i mean , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , uh , clean things up . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? so it it 's got its own objective criterion . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough i mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back back when chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . grad a: wrong . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . professor g: but it 's o k . you start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that does n't really look too bad . postdoc f: oh , excellent . ok . professor g: so so i think using a a good aligner , um , actually can can help a lot . um . but , uh , you know , they both help each other . if you have a if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . if you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so so postdoc f: excellent . i guess there 's another aspect , too , and i do n't know uh , this this is very possibly a different , uh , topic . but , uh , just let me say with reference to this idea of , um , higher - order organization within meetings . so like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um e i mean , i i i did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: already transcribed meeting . and i do n't know if , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wan na do with each meeting , sort of like a , um it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: i mean , i i i do n't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . i do n't know i if that 's something that i should do when i look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: but this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . ok . professor g: yeah . meaning really is n't my thing . um grad a: i think it just whoever is interested can do that . i mean , so if someone wants to use that data postdoc f: ok . professor g: we 're running a little short here . postdoc f: that 's fine . professor g: we , uh , uh , cou trying to postdoc f: i 'm finished . professor g: eh , was p well , you know , the thing i 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: oh , yeah . professor g: and and i have n't heard , uh , from jose yet . postdoc f: oh , yes . phd d: ok . what do you want ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so grad a: we could skip the digits . professor g: uh grad a: we do n't have to read digits each time . professor g: uh i i i think it you know , another another bunch of digits . more data is good . grad a: ok . phd d: yeah . sure . professor g: so so i 'd like to do that . but i think , do you , maybe , eh ? did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: yeah . it 's it 's prepared . professor g: or what was that ? yeah . postdoc f: oh , k sorry . professor g: uh , how long a ? phd d: i i think it 's it 's fast , because , uh , i have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . eh , um , eh , in the in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the by the , um , variance . um , i th i professor g: yeah . phd d: the other , uh the the last w uh , meeting eh , i do n't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it does n't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: yes . right . phd d: and it was a problem , uh , with the scale . grad a: with what ? phd d: eh , the scale . postdoc f: scale . grad a: scale . phd d: eh , and i i change the scale and we can see the the variance . professor g: ok . but the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: right ? phd d: the distribution the distribution is is similar . professor g: ok . so that 's that 's that 's enough then . ok . phd d: yeah . professor g: no , i mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: so , i i think we have to start uh , i mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh what we said before is that , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: um , it looks like , at least that you have n't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: um , i i 'm i 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . these things l @ @ seems like there should be , phd d: yeah . professor g: but but you do n't want to keep , uh keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . but , i mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: yeah . professor g: so which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . um but , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in spain , phd d: yeah . professor g: which is to say , do n't worry so much about the , uh , features . phd d: yeah . professor g: that is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling . phd d: yeah . professor g: you know , have a have a couple markov models and and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . phd d: hmm . professor g: and let the , uh , uh , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . phd d: yeah . professor g: i i , um , i think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . i think that you 'd end up with a better system overall . phd d: yeah . professor g: but given the limitation in time and given the fact that javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: maybe that 's a better place to go . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so . phd d: i i i think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: yeah . phd d: and wh what nnn , how far is professor g: maybe . yeah . phd d: and , i i have prepared the the pitch tracker now . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: and i hope the the next week i will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . professor g: i see . phd d: and , nnn , nnn professor g: ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ? phd c: no . no . phd d: no . professor g: oh . maybe m you could , you kn uh show thilo that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . sure . phd d: yeah . professor g: cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . phd d: yeah . professor g: but if you included , uh , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: ok . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah , but i 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector i i i used up to now , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: that 's right . but i think javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . phd d: ah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think javier 's might be able to . phd c: so . professor g: n n grad a: it does n't have the same gaus - uh , h m m modeling , phd c: yeah . grad a: which is i think a drawback . phd c: ok . grad a: but , uh professor g: well , it 's sort of has a simple one . phd d: mmm , yeah . grad a: does it ? professor g: right ? it 's it 's just it 's just a is n't it just a gaussian phd d: yeah . professor g: for each ? grad a: yeah . and then he ch you choose optimal splitting . phd d: hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . oh , it does n't have it does n't have any temporal , uh ? grad a: maybe i 'm misremembering , but i did not think it had a markov professor g: i thought it yeah . i gues i guess i do n't remember either . uh . it 's been a while . phd c: yeah . uh , i could have a look at it . phd d: javier professor g: uh . phd c: so . phd d: you mean ja - eh , eh , javier program ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: no , javier di does n't worked with , uh , a markov grad a: yeah , i did n't think so . phd d: he on only train professor g: oh , ok . so he 's just he just computes a gaussian over potential grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . it was only gaussian . professor g: oh , i see . i see . grad a: and so i i think it would work fine for detecting overlap . phd d: this is the idea . professor g: and and grad a: it 's just , uh , that i it he has the two - pass issue that what he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . and that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . phd c: ok . grad a: and so those are the putative places where he tries . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . ok . grad a: and right now he 's doing that with silence and that does n't work with the meeting recorder . so if we used another method to get the first pass , i think it would probably work . phd c: yeah . yeah . sure . yeah . yeah , ok . grad a: it 's a good method . as long as the len as long the segments are long enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: that 's the other problem . phd c: so professor g: o - k ok . so let me go back to what you had , though . phd c: yeah . professor g: um . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: the other thing one could do is could n't i mean , it 's so you have two categories phd c: yeah . professor g: and you have markov models for each . could n't you have a third category ? so you have , uh you have , uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: he has this on his board actually . do n't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: right ? and then you have a markov model for each ? phd c: um i 'm not sure . i i thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . but it 's not too easy , i think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system i have now . but it it it could be possible , i think , professor g: i see . i see . phd c: in principle . professor g: yeah , i mean , i this is all pretty gross . phd d: yeah . professor g: i mean , the th the reason why , uh , i was suggesting originally that we look at features is because i thought , well , we 're doing something we have n't done before , phd c: yeah . professor g: we should at least look at the space and understand phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: it seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: i had the impression . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . grad a: right . phd c: yeah . professor g: so those are all things that should be there . phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: so far , um , uh , jose has has been by the way , i was told i should be calling you pepe , but phd d: yeah . professor g: by your friends , but anyway , phd d: yeah . professor g: um , uh , the has has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then there 's , you know is it energy ? is it log energy ? is it lpc residual energy ? is it is it is it , uh , delta of those things ? uh , what is it no obviously , just a simple number absolute number is n't gon na work . so it should be with compared to what ? should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: yeah . professor g: or , you know , how b short should they be ? so , phd d: hmm . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . phd d: yeah . professor g: so i i still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . phd d: yeah . to overrule , yeah . professor g: so pitch - related and harmonic - related , i 'm i 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: but it seems like if we just wan na get something to work , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: that , uh , their suggestion of of th - they were suggesting going to markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what javier did . and one of those things , looking at the statistical component , phd d: one . phd c: yeah . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , um eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: but , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the javier software ? eh , i mean , the , uh the , uh the bic criterion , the the t to train the the gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . i mean , eh , i i i think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step i mean , the the classifier what were the classifier from javier or classifier from thilo ? w what happen with the second step ? i i mean , what what happen with the , eh the , uh , clu the , uh the clu the clustering process ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: using the the gaussian . grad a: you mean javier 's ? phd d: yeah . grad a: what do you mean ? phd d: i i mean , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step does n't work well , eh , we have another problem . grad a: i yeah . i had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: n grad a: and it worked pretty well , but i have n't worked with it a lot . so what i d i d i took a hand - segmented sample phd d: nnn , yeah . grad a: and i added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: yeah . grad a: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries . phd d: oh . yeah . but is is if grad a: but this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: but it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: right . so if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to javier 's and it does n't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: uh yeah . the n n yeah . no . the demonstration by hand . segmentation by hand i i i think is the fast experiment . grad a: yeah . i think that 's probably worthwhile doing . phd d: uh , we can prove that the professor g: uh - huh . grad a: whether it 'll work or not . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and gaussian grad a: yeah . professor g: yeah . grad a: yep . y do you know where his software is ? have you used it at all ? phd d: i yeah have . i have . grad a: ok . phd d: grad a: so . i i have as well , so if you need need help let me know . phd d: ok . professor g: let 's read some digits . grad a: ok . uuh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we are { disfmarker }

the transcriber pool is making quick progress , and may be used in the future to perform other types of coding , e.g . a more detailed analysis of speaker overlap . transcribers are coding non-speech gestures , such as audible breaths and laughter , both of which are useful for improving recognition results .

what did speaker f state about the transcriber tool ? </s> grad a: ok . we seem to be recording . professor g: alright ! grad a: so , sorry about not professor g: we 're not crashing . phd d: number four . grad a: not pre - doing everything . the lunch went a little later than i was expecting , chuck . phd e: hmm ? professor g: ok . phd b: chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ? grad a: yep . pretty much . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . does anybody have an agenda ? grad a: no . postdoc f: well , i 'm i sent a couple of items . they 're they 're sort of practical . professor g: i thought somebody had . postdoc f: i do n't know if you 're professor g: yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: if if that 's too practical for what we 're focused on . grad a: i mean , we do n't want anything too practical . professor g: yeah , we only want th useless things . grad a: yeah , that would be professor g: yeah . no , why do n't we talk about practical things ? postdoc f: ok . professor g: sure . postdoc f: well , um , i can give you an update on the transcription effort . professor g: great . postdoc f: uh , maybe raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: ok , transcription , uh , microphone issues postdoc f: and then maybe ask , th uh , these guys . the we have great great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . professor g: ok . grad a: well , we have steps forward . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , it 's a it 's a big improvement . phd c: i would prefer this . professor g: yes . yeah , well . ok . uh phd d: we talk about the the results of professor g: you have some yeah . grad a: i have a little bit of iram stuff professor g: ok . phd d: use grad a: but i 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: uh , bigram ? grad a: iram . phd d: iram . professor g: iram . grad a: iram , bigram , professor g: well , m maybe . phd d: bi - bigram . grad a: you know . professor g: yeah , let 's let 's see where we are at three - thirty . phd b: hmm . professor g: um phd b: since , uh since i have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? professor g: well phd c: which is ? grad a: what 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part . phd e: please specify . professor g: but phd b: well , uh , i guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i think that would be a good thing to start with . phd b: yeah . professor g: ok . um , and , um , the other thing , uh , which i 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting i had the other day when i was in spain with , uh , manolo pardo and javier , uh , ferreiros , who was here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . so , in what javier did before when they were doing , um h he was looking for , uh , speaker change points . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: um . as a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , uh , a putative , uh , speaker change point . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . and for broadcast news , that was fine . here obviously it 's not . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: uh - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: nnn , yeah . professor g: so then you 've got you already have the super - structure with gaussians and h - you know , simple h m ms and so forth . and you you might so there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because i i thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . phd d: yeah . professor g: but , uh , on the other hand i saw that the they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit because ultimately we 're gon na end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple hmm and you 're testing the hypothesis that , uh , there is a change . phd d: yeah . professor g: so so anyway , i just reporting that . phd d: ok . professor g: but , uh , uh so . yeah , why do n't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: yeah . do i i hear you you did n't phd c: speech - nonspeech ? ok . postdoc f: uh - huh . yeah . phd c: um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and what i did so far is i just used our old munich system , which is an hmm - ba based system with gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . and it was a system which used only one gaussian for silence and one gaussian for speech . and now i added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech . professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: and i did some training on on one dialogue , which was transcribed by yeah . we we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription . phd d: jose . phd c: adam , dave , and i , we did , for that dialogue and i trained it on that . and i did some pre - segmentations for for jane . and i 'm not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say . they they can use it or ? postdoc f: uh , they they think it 's a terrific improvement . and , um , it real it just makes a a world of difference . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: and , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: yeah . uh , yeah . that that was one one one thing , uh , why i added more mixtures for for the speech . so i saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and so i did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: and did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: i did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: right . phd c: and that was enough to to train the system . phd b: w what ? phd d: yeah . phd c: and so it it adapts , uh , on while running . so . phd b: what kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ? phd c: hopefully . phd d: ok . phd c: it 's just our our old munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd b: mm - hmm . phd c: and four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . so it 's twenty - four twenty - four features . phd b: mmm . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and you also provided me with several different versions , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: which i compared . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and so you change parameters . what do you wan na say something about the parameters that you change ? phd c: yeah . you can specify the minimum length of speech or and silence portions which you want . and so i did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , um yeah to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . so . grad a: right . so this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . yeah . grad a: but for overlap i imagine that does n't work at all , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: that 's it . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad a: but postdoc f: that 's true . but it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: um grad a: yep . postdoc f: just enormous , enormous savings . fantastic . professor g: that 's great . um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . so you have these twenty - four features . phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , a lot of them are spectral features . is there a a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ? phd c: no . grad a: yeah . it was is two . phd c: no . w w we originally we did that professor g: just phd c: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . it it works as well f with with without , uh , a lda or something . professor g: ok . ok . no , i was j curious . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i do n't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: yeah . phd d: right . professor g: but but yeah , it 's a postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . but then there 's another thing that also thilo 's involved with , which is , um ok , and and also da - dave gelbart . so there 's this this problem of and w and so we had this meeting . th - the also adam , before the the before you went away . uh we , um regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , um , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired i think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so we do n't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . we just have the the overlaps encoded in a simple bin . well , ok . so @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my my view and i think i mean , i had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . so , um , um , i spoke i had a meeting with dave gelbart on on and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . but , um , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . so , do you wan na say something about that ? phd c: yes . um , i talked with , uh , munich guys from from ludwi - ludwig maximilians university , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and they basically said they have they have , uh , a tool they developed themselves and they ca n't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: yeah . phd c: but , um , susanne bur - burger , who is at se cmu , he wa who was formally at in munich and w and is now at with cmu , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: excuse me . phd c: but it 's running under windows . postdoc f: under windows . phd c: so i 'm not sure if if if we can use it . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: she said she would give it to us . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: it would n't be a problem . and i 've got some some kind of manual down in my office . grad a: well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange windows machines to be available . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . we could uh , potentially so . grad a: so . postdoc f: i also wanted to be sure i mean , i 've i 've seen the this this is called praat , praat , which i guess means spee speech in dutch or something . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah , but then i 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . postdoc f: but in terms of it being windows versus professor g: yeah . grad a: no , no . praat is n't praat 's multi - platform . postdoc f: but i 'm just wondering , is ? phd c: no . no , praat yeah . yeah . postdoc f: oh ! i see . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: oh , i see . so praat may not be phd c: that 's not praat . it 's called `` trans transedit `` i think . postdoc f: it 's a different one . phd c: the the , uh the tool from from susanne . postdoc f: i see . oh , i see . ok . ok . alright . professor g: the other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh i mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: mmm , yeah . professor g: but , um , i think our outside sponsor is actually gon na kick in postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . so i do n't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . i think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . but as far a you know , uh , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . grad a: oh . phd b: but you s grad a: what our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . phd c: yeah . professor g: right . yeah . grad a: and and do what we can later to clean that up if we need to . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right . postdoc f: and and i was just thinking that , um , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: uh th - they 're making really quick progress . professor g: yeah . that 's great . postdoc f: and , um , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . and it 'll be i 'm i 'm i 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . professor g: that 's great . grad a: and did you , uh , forward morgan brian 's thing ? professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i sent it to , um who did i send that to ? i sent it to a list and i thought i sent it to the e to the local list . phd e: meeting recorder . grad a: oh , you did ? ok . so you probably did get that . postdoc f: you saw that ? so brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , uh that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gon na check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: i mean , basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . i mean , basically he 's he 's on it now . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: oh , that 's this is a new development . professor g: so so so this is so i it 'll happen . postdoc f: ok . super . super . ok . great . professor g: yeah . i mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: yeah . professor g: you know , who just does n't happen to be here anymore . someone else pays him . so phd b: but about the need for transcription , postdoc f: is n't that great ? phd b: i mean , do n't we did n't we previously decide that the ibm transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: so . yeah . postdoc f: yes . that 's true . phd b: so , i think having a good tool is worth something no matter what . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . s ok . that 's that 's a good point . grad a: yeah , and dave gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: good . grad a: and since he 's not here , i 'll repeat it to at least modify transcriber , which , if we do n't have something else that works , i think that 's a pretty good way of going . phd c: mmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we discussed on some methods to do it . my approach originally , and i 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because i was trying to display all the waveforms . but he pointed out that you do n't really have to . i think that 's a good point . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: that if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: yeah , exactly . and just keep those things separate . and and , um , dan ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: no . they can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: oh , yes , but well , uh , yes , but what i mean is that , uh , from the transcriber 's perspective , uh , those two functions are separate . and dan ellis 's hack handles the , um , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . grad a: but only to listen to , not to look at . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: um grad a: the waveform you 're looking at does n't change . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: that 's true . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: yeah , but that 's that 's ok , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . grad a: right . postdoc f: and then and then professor g: hmm . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: right . postdoc f: which then would also serve liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio . professor g: mm - hmm . have , uh , folks from nist been in contact with you ? postdoc f: not directly . i 'm trying to think if if i could have gotten it over a list . professor g: ok . postdoc f: i do n't i do n't think so . professor g: ok . well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in they seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . postdoc f: oh ! this was from before december . yeah . professor g: right . because they 're they 're presumably going to start recording next month . postdoc f: ok . ok . grad a: oh , we should definitely get with them then , professor g: so . grad a: and agree upon a format . though i do n't remember email on that . so was i not in the loop on that ? professor g: um . yeah , i do n't think i mailed anybody . i just think i told them to contact jane that , uh , if they had a grad a: oh , ok . postdoc f: that 's right . professor g: if , uh that that , uh , as the point person on it . grad a: yeah , i think that 's right . professor g: but grad a: just , uh professor g: so , yeah . maybe i 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to get that straight . postdoc f: ok . i 'm keeping the conventions absolutely as simple as possible . professor g: yeah . so is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at columbia , collections at at uw i mean dan dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . professor g: and collections at nist . so yeah . grad a: so . postdoc f: n there was also this , uh , email from dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: i do n't know if , uh , uh , we wan na , uh and dan gel - and dave gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . grad a: cross - correlation . professor g: oh , yeah . he was talking he was talking i mean , uh , we he had postdoc f: cross professor g: yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: cross professor g: i had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , uh , voice , uh you know , active miking , postdoc f: uh - huh . professor g: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . and and you basically compare the energy here to some function of all of the mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who who 's talking . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh and those those systems work very well , by the way , i mean , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: uh - huh . professor g: uh and , uh , those if boy , the guy i knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: hmm . professor g: so they 're it 's the the techniques work pretty well . postdoc f: fantastic . cuz there is one thing that we do n't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier . professor g: so . postdoc f: that that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: the the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do if that were available . professor g: yeah . so i think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: but . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh , and we also have these we have the advantage of having distant mikes too . so that , you cou yo grad a: yeah , although the the using the close - talking i think would be much better . would n't it ? postdoc f: yeah . professor g: um . i i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor g: i just it 'd be if i was actually working on it , i 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . i mean , the the the , uh but , uh , you certainly wan na use the close - talking , as a at least . grad a: right . professor g: i do n't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . what what are the different , uh , classes to to code , uh , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: um , to code d phd d: what you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: yeah . postdoc f: um , so at a meeting that was n't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and , um phd d: look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? the ? yeah ? yeah . postdoc f: yes , exactly . that has n't changed . so it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . and then below that there 're subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , you know , is it , uh , simply backchannel phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: or is it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . grad a: right . and i hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . phd d: huh . yeah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . well , one would phd d: we hope . grad a: yeah . who knows ? postdoc f: that 'd be that 'd be nice . i mean , i i i i 've phd b: so who 's gon na do that ? who 's gon na do forced alignment ? grad a: well , u uh , ibm was going to . um phd b: oh , ok . phd d: oh . grad a: and i imagine they still plan to but but , you know , i have n't spoken with them about that recently . phd b: ok . phd d: uh - huh . professor g: well , uh , my suggestion now is is on all of these things to , uh , contact brian . grad a: ok . i 'll do that . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: this is wonderful to have a direct contact like that . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: uh well , th lem me ask you this . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: it occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , um , by professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , uh , say professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . i could send brian the , um the transcript . i know these are er , uh , i could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: well , just talk to him about it . grad a: yep . postdoc f: good . professor g: i mean , you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: yeah ! professor g: uh , they and and , you know , the the organization always did wan na help us . postdoc f: super . super . professor g: it was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah , yeah . professor g: so , um , eh grad a: is he on the mailing list ? the meeting recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: oh ! grad a: we should add him . postdoc f: yeah . i i i do n't know for sure . professor g: yeah . phd e: did something happen , morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: add him . phd e: or ? professor g: no , i , eh , eh , p it it oc i h it 's yeah , something happened . i do n't know what . phd b: he asked for more work . phd e: huh . professor g: but he 's on it now . postdoc f: that would be like that 'd be like him . he 's great . professor g: right . so , uh , where are we ? maybe , uh , uh , brief well , let 's why do n't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: yeah . that 'd be great . professor g: that was that was a grad a: um , so one thing is that i did look on sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . but i think i need someone who knows more about mikes than i do , because i could n't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: oh , i probably would . i mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same . grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: so uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that . phd e: you could n't you could n't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: yep . when i looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . but my guess is that sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . and and so professor g: mm - hmm . well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: and there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: yeah . postdoc f: seems like there 'd be a ok . grad a: as i said , who knows ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: who who are we buying these from ? grad a: um , professor g: that 'd be grad a: i have it downstairs . i do n't remember off the top of my head . professor g: yeah . ok . yeah . we we can try and look at that together . grad a: and then , uh just in terms of how you wear them i mean , i had thought about this before . i mean , when when when you use a product like dragondictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . postdoc f: oh . grad a: but i felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gon na get people to really do it and maybe it was n't worth concentrating on . but professor g: well , i think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . that 's what i was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gon na get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . but i i think that it it does n't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: because , um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . grad a: oh . that 's true . professor g: i mean , i think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people are n't gon na be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: so this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , it 's gon na make you know , if if an - andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gon na be m wan na be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . grad a: right . professor g: so it 's it 's , uh , uh grad a: well , i 'll dig through the documentation to dragondictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: but it does happen . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , and any phd b: it 's interesting , uh , i talked to some ibm guys , uh , last january , i think , i was there . and so people who were working on the on their viavoice dictation product . professor g: yeah . phd b: and they said , uh , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . postdoc f: wow . phd b: so , anything to reduce breathing is is is a good thing . professor g: yeah . grad a: well , that 's the it seemed to me when i was using dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , uh an enormous amount . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: so you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it does n't the wind does n't hit the mike . phd b: right . mm - hmm . grad a: and then , uh everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . and then just close enough so that you get good volume . so you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: is uh - huh . professor g: i remember when i was when i i i i used , uh , um , a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , uh this was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . and , um , they were they were perturbed with me because i was breathing in instead of breathing out . and they had models for they they had markov models for br breathing out but they did n't have them for breathing in . phd d: yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: that 's interesting . well , what i wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly i mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . grad a: i mean , when when it 's on , you can see it . postdoc f: i do n't know if the if it 's professor g: i grad a: you can definitely see it . postdoc f: can you see the breathing ? grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: cuz i grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: oh . professor g: yeah . grad a: and so , you know , i 've i 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: i grad a: and the bar going up and down , and i 'm thinking , i could say something , but professor g: i mean , i think grad a: i do n't want to make people self - conscious . stop breathing ! professor g: it it 's going to be imperfect . postdoc f: yeah . uh - huh . professor g: you 're not gon na get it perfect . and you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: yeah . postdoc f: good . professor g: but not too far away . postdoc f: yeah , i professor g: and then , you know , i think there 's not much because you ca n't al you know , interfere w you ca n't fine tune the meeting that much , i think . grad a: right . phd d: yeah . professor g: it 's sort of postdoc f: that 's true . it just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . grad a: yep . and then also the position of the mike also . if it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . so so , like , yours is pretty far down below your mouth . yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: but mm - hmm . my my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: yeah . phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: i do n't know why that is . postdoc f: well , i mean , you yeah , of course . you 're you 're also uh , your volume is is greater . but but still , i mean , they they say grad a: i 've been eating a lot . postdoc f: i it makes their their job extremely easy . professor g: uh . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: and then there 's mass . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: anyway . postdoc f: i could say something about about the well , i do n't know what you wan na do . yeah . professor g: about what ? postdoc f: about the transcribers or anything or ? i do n't know . professor g: well , the other phd b: but , uh , just to to , um professor g: why do n't we do that ? phd b: one more remark , uh , concerning the sri recognizer . um . it is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so , grad a: so , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: mmm . phd b: um postdoc f: they are . phd b: ok . postdoc f: they 're putting eh , so in curly brackets they put `` inhale `` or `` breath `` . grad a: oh , great . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: it they and then in curly brackets they say `` laughter `` . now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , uh , m so they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: one is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . so , um , i i did s i did some double checking to look through i mean , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: it 's not so i do n't think it 's , um postdoc f: and that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying `` curly brackets laughing `` a after the unit . phd b: as as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words i think that 's sufficient , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: good . oh ! grad a: against they could do forced alignment . postdoc f: ok . phd b: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um you know , is pretty good . phd c: yeah . phd b: so as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: oh , i did n't know that . phd b: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models . postdoc f: ok . grad a: that would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: then phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and let me ask y and i got ta ask you one thing about that . grad a: when phd b: hmm . postdoc f: so , um , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . phd b: mm - hmm . right . postdoc f: but if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . does that matter ? phd d: yeah . phd b: well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . um , and that 's , uh i do n't think that we can do very well with that . grad a: right . phd b: so phd d: yeah . phd b: but , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: ok . grad a: so are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: uh is it ? phd d: huh . i i think it 's frequent in in the meeting . postdoc f: i think he 's right . yeah . phd b: we tried both . uh , currently , um , we use special words . there was a there 's actually a word for uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: mm - hmm . mouth stuff ? phd b: uh , mouth mouth stuff . and then laughter is a is a special word . grad a: how would we do that with the hybrid system ? professor g: same thing . grad a: so train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: same thing ? yeah . yeah . you ha oh . and each of these words has a dedicated phone . professor g: no grad a: oh , it does ? phd b: so the so the the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that . grad a: right . so in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone . professor g: yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: i mean , it 's it 's it 's always the same thing . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right ? i mean , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , uh different states . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then you would have three i mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: do whatever you want . phd b: and the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah , yeah . phd d: no . phd b: they actually are uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: to go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: and how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: it 's just a it 's just a word . grad a: it 's just a word in the language model . phd b: we train it like any other word . grad a: cool . phd b: yeah . we also tried , um , absorbing these uh , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , um phd d: yeah . phd b: yes . ok . anyway . we also tried absorbing that into the pause model i mean , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , um , it did n't work as well . so . grad a: huh . ok . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: can you hand me your digit form ? phd b: sorry . grad a: i just wan na mark that you did not read digits . professor g: ok . say hi for me . postdoc f: good . you you did get me to thinking about i i 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing i think it may be an individual thing . some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking . professor g: yeah . grad a: i was noticing that with dan in the one that we , uh we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: yeah . i think postdoc f: but i ca n't phd d: yeah . grad a: that th he has these little chuckles as he talks . postdoc f: yeah . ok . professor g: i 'm sure it 's very individual . and and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . we have this very , very tiny sample of of phd d: yeah . postdoc f: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: speech researchers ? professor g: uh , yeah . and yeah , r right . phd d: speech research . professor g: so , uh , who knows . uh yeah . why don why do n't we just since we 're on this vein , why do n't we just continue with , uh , what you were gon na say about the transcriptions postdoc f: ok . professor g: and ? postdoc f: um , um , the i i 'm really very for i 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . they are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um and i 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: cuz they 're gon na be transcribing it in a few days . postdoc f: no , they 're super . they 're the they very quick . phd e: ok . turn the mikes off and let 's talk . postdoc f: yeah , i know . i am i 'm serious . they 're just super . so i , um , e you know , i i brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because i think people can raise questions grad a: that 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and um , i trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . this also gives me a sense of you know , i can i can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . but the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . and then , um , i just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . they 're , um they 're trained in linguistics . grad a: good . oh , no . is that good or bad ? postdoc f: they got professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: well , they they 're very perce they 'll so one of them said `` well , you know , he really said `` n `` , not really `` and `` , phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: so what what should i do with that ? `` grad a: yeah . postdoc f: and i said , `` well for our purposes , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i do have a convention . if it 's an a noncanonical p `` that one , i think we you know , with eric 's work , i sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . but i told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like i said in one thing , professor g: ok . yes . postdoc f: and i gave my my example , like i said , `` microfon `` in instead of `` microphone `` . did n't bother i knew it when i said it . i remember s thinking `` oh , that 's not correctly pronounced `` . but it but i thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . grad a: you 'll self - repair . yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: but i have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native english american english speaker , you know that i did n't mean to say `` microfon . `` then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets `` pron error `` . and , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . but , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the `` nnn `` . `` he said `` nnn `` , not `` and `` . what shall i do with that ? `` i mean , they 're very perceptive . and and s several of them are trained in ipa . c they really could do phonetic transcription if if we wanted them to . professor g: mm - hmm . right . well well , you know , it might be something we 'd wan na do with some , uh , s small subset of the whole thing . grad a: hmm . where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: i think professor g: we certainly would n't wan na do it with everything . postdoc f: and i 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . i mean , if , uh so i i told them that , um , we do n't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: and i also m i think they know that the data p source is limited and i may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although i hope to . professor g: the other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . postdoc f: and oh , that 'd be so super . they would be so s so terrific . grad a: i mean , this was something that we were talking about . professor g: right ? grad a: we could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . right ? one for each participant . so they could by hand professor g: well , that 's one way to do it . grad a: yeah . professor g: but i 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , that 's right . professor g: right ? postdoc f: and with the right in interface professor g: given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: which we know from the steve 's experience with the switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . and and you know , it took them i do n't know how many months to do to get four hours . and so that has n't been really our focus . uh , we can consider it . but , i mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but anyway , i 'm i 'm open to c our consideration . postdoc f: that 'd be great . phd d: hmm . professor g: i i do n't wan na say that by fiat . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: i 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and , uh , uh , phd d: hmm . professor g: i i i think this year we we actually , uh , can do it . postdoc f: oh , wonderful . professor g: it 's a we have we have due to @ @ { comment } variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: so i do n't wan na hire a grad a: calendar year or ? professor g: uh , i mean , calendar year two thousand one . grad a: ok . professor g: yeah . so it 's uh , it 's we do n't wan na hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: full - time . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . but having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding . postdoc f: wonderful . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and then school will start in in the sixt on the sixteenth . professor g: so . postdoc f: some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point . professor g: yeah . phd e: are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: but some of them are . grad a: wow . postdoc f: yeah . well , why do i would n't say forty - hour weeks . no . but what i mean is oh , i should n't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . no . i th i i would say they 're probably they do n't have o they do n't have other things that are taking away their time . grad a: i do n't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription . phd e: hmm . postdoc f: but it 's you ca n't . professor g: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: no . you 're right . it 's i it would be too taxing . but , um , they 're putting in a lot of professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and and i checked them over . professor g: i postdoc f: i i i have n't checked them all , but just spot - checking . they 're fantastic . grad a: i think it would be professor g: i remember when we were transcribing berp , uh , uh , uh , ron kay , uh , volunteered to to do some of that . and , he was the first first stuff he did was transcribing chuck . and he 's saying `` you you know , i always thought chuck spoke really well . `` postdoc f: yeah . yeah . well , you know , and i also thought , y liz has this , eh , you know , and i do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . these people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: we 'd have to mark them . postdoc f: or whatever . so , um . professor g: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: i think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: yeah . grad a: cuz i 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . yeah . th - that 'd be i think that 's a a good idea . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: you know , there 's also , the e in my mind , i think a an - andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , um , we have n't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from ibm , and it may just be , you know , pristine . but on the other hand , given the lesser interface cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um professor g: it could be that they will uh theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . postdoc f: something like that . professor g: maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gon na do these alignments , which will also clear things up . postdoc f: that 's that 's true . al - although you have to s do n't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: well , tha that 's that 's debatable . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? i mean , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , uh , clean things up . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? so it it 's got its own objective criterion . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough i mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back back when chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . grad a: wrong . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . professor g: but it 's o k . you start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that does n't really look too bad . postdoc f: oh , excellent . ok . professor g: so so i think using a a good aligner , um , actually can can help a lot . um . but , uh , you know , they both help each other . if you have a if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . if you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so so postdoc f: excellent . i guess there 's another aspect , too , and i do n't know uh , this this is very possibly a different , uh , topic . but , uh , just let me say with reference to this idea of , um , higher - order organization within meetings . so like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um e i mean , i i i did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: already transcribed meeting . and i do n't know if , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wan na do with each meeting , sort of like a , um it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: i mean , i i i do n't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . i do n't know i if that 's something that i should do when i look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: but this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . ok . professor g: yeah . meaning really is n't my thing . um grad a: i think it just whoever is interested can do that . i mean , so if someone wants to use that data postdoc f: ok . professor g: we 're running a little short here . postdoc f: that 's fine . professor g: we , uh , uh , cou trying to postdoc f: i 'm finished . professor g: eh , was p well , you know , the thing i 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: oh , yeah . professor g: and and i have n't heard , uh , from jose yet . postdoc f: oh , yes . phd d: ok . what do you want ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so grad a: we could skip the digits . professor g: uh grad a: we do n't have to read digits each time . professor g: uh i i i think it you know , another another bunch of digits . more data is good . grad a: ok . phd d: yeah . sure . professor g: so so i 'd like to do that . but i think , do you , maybe , eh ? did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: yeah . it 's it 's prepared . professor g: or what was that ? yeah . postdoc f: oh , k sorry . professor g: uh , how long a ? phd d: i i think it 's it 's fast , because , uh , i have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . eh , um , eh , in the in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the by the , um , variance . um , i th i professor g: yeah . phd d: the other , uh the the last w uh , meeting eh , i do n't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it does n't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: yes . right . phd d: and it was a problem , uh , with the scale . grad a: with what ? phd d: eh , the scale . postdoc f: scale . grad a: scale . phd d: eh , and i i change the scale and we can see the the variance . professor g: ok . but the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: right ? phd d: the distribution the distribution is is similar . professor g: ok . so that 's that 's that 's enough then . ok . phd d: yeah . professor g: no , i mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: so , i i think we have to start uh , i mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh what we said before is that , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: um , it looks like , at least that you have n't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: um , i i 'm i 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . these things l @ @ seems like there should be , phd d: yeah . professor g: but but you do n't want to keep , uh keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . but , i mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: yeah . professor g: so which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . um but , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in spain , phd d: yeah . professor g: which is to say , do n't worry so much about the , uh , features . phd d: yeah . professor g: that is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling . phd d: yeah . professor g: you know , have a have a couple markov models and and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . phd d: hmm . professor g: and let the , uh , uh , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . phd d: yeah . professor g: i i , um , i think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . i think that you 'd end up with a better system overall . phd d: yeah . professor g: but given the limitation in time and given the fact that javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: maybe that 's a better place to go . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so . phd d: i i i think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: yeah . phd d: and wh what nnn , how far is professor g: maybe . yeah . phd d: and , i i have prepared the the pitch tracker now . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: and i hope the the next week i will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . professor g: i see . phd d: and , nnn , nnn professor g: ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ? phd c: no . no . phd d: no . professor g: oh . maybe m you could , you kn uh show thilo that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . sure . phd d: yeah . professor g: cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . phd d: yeah . professor g: but if you included , uh , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: ok . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah , but i 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector i i i used up to now , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: that 's right . but i think javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . phd d: ah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think javier 's might be able to . phd c: so . professor g: n n grad a: it does n't have the same gaus - uh , h m m modeling , phd c: yeah . grad a: which is i think a drawback . phd c: ok . grad a: but , uh professor g: well , it 's sort of has a simple one . phd d: mmm , yeah . grad a: does it ? professor g: right ? it 's it 's just it 's just a is n't it just a gaussian phd d: yeah . professor g: for each ? grad a: yeah . and then he ch you choose optimal splitting . phd d: hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . oh , it does n't have it does n't have any temporal , uh ? grad a: maybe i 'm misremembering , but i did not think it had a markov professor g: i thought it yeah . i gues i guess i do n't remember either . uh . it 's been a while . phd c: yeah . uh , i could have a look at it . phd d: javier professor g: uh . phd c: so . phd d: you mean ja - eh , eh , javier program ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: no , javier di does n't worked with , uh , a markov grad a: yeah , i did n't think so . phd d: he on only train professor g: oh , ok . so he 's just he just computes a gaussian over potential grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . it was only gaussian . professor g: oh , i see . i see . grad a: and so i i think it would work fine for detecting overlap . phd d: this is the idea . professor g: and and grad a: it 's just , uh , that i it he has the two - pass issue that what he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . and that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . phd c: ok . grad a: and so those are the putative places where he tries . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . ok . grad a: and right now he 's doing that with silence and that does n't work with the meeting recorder . so if we used another method to get the first pass , i think it would probably work . phd c: yeah . yeah . sure . yeah . yeah , ok . grad a: it 's a good method . as long as the len as long the segments are long enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: that 's the other problem . phd c: so professor g: o - k ok . so let me go back to what you had , though . phd c: yeah . professor g: um . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: the other thing one could do is could n't i mean , it 's so you have two categories phd c: yeah . professor g: and you have markov models for each . could n't you have a third category ? so you have , uh you have , uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: he has this on his board actually . do n't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: right ? and then you have a markov model for each ? phd c: um i 'm not sure . i i thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . but it 's not too easy , i think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system i have now . but it it it could be possible , i think , professor g: i see . i see . phd c: in principle . professor g: yeah , i mean , i this is all pretty gross . phd d: yeah . professor g: i mean , the th the reason why , uh , i was suggesting originally that we look at features is because i thought , well , we 're doing something we have n't done before , phd c: yeah . professor g: we should at least look at the space and understand phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: it seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: i had the impression . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . grad a: right . phd c: yeah . professor g: so those are all things that should be there . phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: so far , um , uh , jose has has been by the way , i was told i should be calling you pepe , but phd d: yeah . professor g: by your friends , but anyway , phd d: yeah . professor g: um , uh , the has has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then there 's , you know is it energy ? is it log energy ? is it lpc residual energy ? is it is it is it , uh , delta of those things ? uh , what is it no obviously , just a simple number absolute number is n't gon na work . so it should be with compared to what ? should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: yeah . professor g: or , you know , how b short should they be ? so , phd d: hmm . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . phd d: yeah . professor g: so i i still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . phd d: yeah . to overrule , yeah . professor g: so pitch - related and harmonic - related , i 'm i 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: but it seems like if we just wan na get something to work , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: that , uh , their suggestion of of th - they were suggesting going to markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what javier did . and one of those things , looking at the statistical component , phd d: one . phd c: yeah . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , um eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: but , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the javier software ? eh , i mean , the , uh the , uh the bic criterion , the the t to train the the gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . i mean , eh , i i i think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step i mean , the the classifier what were the classifier from javier or classifier from thilo ? w what happen with the second step ? i i mean , what what happen with the , eh the , uh , clu the , uh the clu the clustering process ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: using the the gaussian . grad a: you mean javier 's ? phd d: yeah . grad a: what do you mean ? phd d: i i mean , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step does n't work well , eh , we have another problem . grad a: i yeah . i had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: n grad a: and it worked pretty well , but i have n't worked with it a lot . so what i d i d i took a hand - segmented sample phd d: nnn , yeah . grad a: and i added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: yeah . grad a: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries . phd d: oh . yeah . but is is if grad a: but this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: but it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: right . so if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to javier 's and it does n't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: uh yeah . the n n yeah . no . the demonstration by hand . segmentation by hand i i i think is the fast experiment . grad a: yeah . i think that 's probably worthwhile doing . phd d: uh , we can prove that the professor g: uh - huh . grad a: whether it 'll work or not . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and gaussian grad a: yeah . professor g: yeah . grad a: yep . y do you know where his software is ? have you used it at all ? phd d: i yeah have . i have . grad a: ok . phd d: grad a: so . i i have as well , so if you need need help let me know . phd d: ok . professor g: let 's read some digits . grad a: ok . uuh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we are { disfmarker }

recent modifications to the transcriber tool allow transcribers to listen to speech from different channels , as well as helping to preserve portions of overlapping speech , and enabling the creation of different output files for each channel for a cleaner and more segmentable transcript .

what did the team say on alternative transcription tools ? </s> grad a: ok . we seem to be recording . professor g: alright ! grad a: so , sorry about not professor g: we 're not crashing . phd d: number four . grad a: not pre - doing everything . the lunch went a little later than i was expecting , chuck . phd e: hmm ? professor g: ok . phd b: chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ? grad a: yep . pretty much . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . does anybody have an agenda ? grad a: no . postdoc f: well , i 'm i sent a couple of items . they 're they 're sort of practical . professor g: i thought somebody had . postdoc f: i do n't know if you 're professor g: yeah , that 's right . postdoc f: if if that 's too practical for what we 're focused on . grad a: i mean , we do n't want anything too practical . professor g: yeah , we only want th useless things . grad a: yeah , that would be professor g: yeah . no , why do n't we talk about practical things ? postdoc f: ok . professor g: sure . postdoc f: well , um , i can give you an update on the transcription effort . professor g: great . postdoc f: uh , maybe raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the cleanliness of the recordings . professor g: ok , transcription , uh , microphone issues postdoc f: and then maybe ask , th uh , these guys . the we have great great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal . professor g: ok . grad a: well , we have steps forward . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , it 's a it 's a big improvement . phd c: i would prefer this . professor g: yes . yeah , well . ok . uh phd d: we talk about the the results of professor g: you have some yeah . grad a: i have a little bit of iram stuff professor g: ok . phd d: use grad a: but i 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not . professor g: uh , bigram ? grad a: iram . phd d: iram . professor g: iram . grad a: iram , bigram , professor g: well , m maybe . phd d: bi - bigram . grad a: you know . professor g: yeah , let 's let 's see where we are at three - thirty . phd b: hmm . professor g: um phd b: since , uh since i have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? professor g: well phd c: which is ? grad a: what 's the interesting stuff ? postdoc f: i beg your pardon ? phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part . phd e: please specify . professor g: but phd b: well , uh , i guess the work that 's been done on segmentation would be most phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i think that would be a good thing to start with . phd b: yeah . professor g: ok . um , and , um , the other thing , uh , which i 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting i had the other day when i was in spain with , uh , manolo pardo and javier , uh , ferreiros , who was here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . so , in what javier did before when they were doing , um h he was looking for , uh , speaker change points . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: um . as a simplification , he originally did this only using silence as , uh , a putative , uh , speaker change point . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . and for broadcast news , that was fine . here obviously it 's not . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before phd d: uh - huh . professor g: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? phd d: nnn , yeah . professor g: so then you 've got you already have the super - structure with gaussians and h - you know , simple h m ms and so forth . and you you might so there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because i i thought that it was it 's interesting to look at what features are useful . phd d: yeah . professor g: but , uh , on the other hand i saw that the they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit because ultimately we 're gon na end up with some s su kind of structure like that , phd d: yeah . professor g: where you have some kind of simple hmm and you 're testing the hypothesis that , uh , there is a change . phd d: yeah . professor g: so so anyway , i just reporting that . phd d: ok . professor g: but , uh , uh so . yeah , why do n't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ? postdoc f: yeah . do i i hear you you did n't phd c: speech - nonspeech ? ok . postdoc f: uh - huh . yeah . phd c: um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech portions in that . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and what i did so far is i just used our old munich system , which is an hmm - ba based system with gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . and it was a system which used only one gaussian for silence and one gaussian for speech . and now i added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech . professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: and i did some training on on one dialogue , which was transcribed by yeah . we we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription . phd d: jose . phd c: adam , dave , and i , we did , for that dialogue and i trained it on that . and i did some pre - segmentations for for jane . and i 'm not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say . they they can use it or ? postdoc f: uh , they they think it 's a terrific improvement . and , um , it real it just makes a a world of difference . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: and , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix . phd c: yeah . uh , yeah . that that was one one one thing , uh , why i added more mixtures for for the speech . so i saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and so i did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers . grad a: and did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just ? phd c: i did that for for five minutes of one dialogue grad a: right . phd c: and that was enough to to train the system . phd b: w what ? phd d: yeah . phd c: and so it it adapts , uh , on while running . so . phd b: what kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ? phd c: hopefully . phd d: ok . phd c: it 's just our our old munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty twenty critical bands and then loudness . phd b: mm - hmm . phd c: and four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . so it 's twenty - four twenty - four features . phd b: mmm . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and you also provided me with several different versions , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: which i compared . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and so you change parameters . what do you wan na say something about the parameters that you change ? phd c: yeah . you can specify the minimum length of speech or and silence portions which you want . and so i did some some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum minimum length for s for silence to have , er to have , um yeah to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . so . grad a: right . so this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . yeah . grad a: but for overlap i imagine that does n't work at all , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: that 's it . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad a: but postdoc f: that 's true . but it it saves so much time the the transcribers professor g: um grad a: yep . postdoc f: just enormous , enormous savings . fantastic . professor g: that 's great . um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . so you have these twenty - four features . phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , a lot of them are spectral features . is there a a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ? phd c: no . grad a: yeah . it was is two . phd c: no . w w we originally we did that professor g: just phd c: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which yeah , for our for our recognizer in munich we saw that w it 's it 's not it 's not so necessary . it it works as well f with with without , uh , a lda or something . professor g: ok . ok . no , i was j curious . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i do n't think it 's a big deal for this application , phd c: yeah . phd d: right . professor g: but but yeah , it 's a postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . but then there 's another thing that also thilo 's involved with , which is , um ok , and and also da - dave gelbart . so there 's this this problem of and w and so we had this meeting . th - the also adam , before the the before you went away . uh we , um regarding the representation of overlaps , because at present , um , because of the limitations of th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being encoded by the transcribers in as complete and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired i think would be desired in the corpus ultimately . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so we do n't have start and end points at each point where there 's an overlap . we just have the the overlaps encoded in a simple bin . well , ok . so @ @ the limits of the over of of the interface are such that we were at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand the the interface or find other tools which already do what would be useful . because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my my view and i think i mean , i had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be the best way to go . because you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . so , um , um , i spoke i had a meeting with dave gelbart on on and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how the interface could be modified to to do this kind of representation . but , um , he in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . so , do you wan na say something about that ? phd c: yes . um , i talked with , uh , munich guys from from ludwi - ludwig maximilians university , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations . professor g: mm - hmm . phd c: and they basically said they have they have , uh , a tool they developed themselves and they ca n't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had it 's not supported , a a a and professor g: yeah . phd c: but , um , susanne bur - burger , who is at se cmu , he wa who was formally at in munich and w and is now at with cmu , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously , professor g: excuse me . phd c: but it 's running under windows . postdoc f: under windows . phd c: so i 'm not sure if if if we can use it . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: she said she would give it to us . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd c: it would n't be a problem . and i 've got some some kind of manual down in my office . grad a: well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange windows machines to be available . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . we could uh , potentially so . grad a: so . postdoc f: i also wanted to be sure i mean , i 've i 've seen the this this is called praat , praat , which i guess means spee speech in dutch or something . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah , but then i 'm not sure that 's the right thing for us . postdoc f: but in terms of it being windows versus professor g: yeah . grad a: no , no . praat is n't praat 's multi - platform . postdoc f: but i 'm just wondering , is ? phd c: no . no , praat yeah . yeah . postdoc f: oh ! i see . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: oh , i see . so praat may not be phd c: that 's not praat . it 's called `` trans transedit `` i think . postdoc f: it 's a different one . phd c: the the , uh the tool from from susanne . postdoc f: i see . oh , i see . ok . ok . alright . professor g: the other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh i mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data , postdoc f: mmm , yeah . professor g: but , um , i think our outside sponsor is actually gon na kick in postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . so i do n't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . i think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . but as far a you know , uh , with with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project . grad a: oh . phd b: but you s grad a: what our decision was is that we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps . phd c: yeah . professor g: right . yeah . grad a: and and do what we can later to clean that up if we need to . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right . postdoc f: and and i was just thinking that , um , if it were possible to bring that in , like , you know , this week , then when they 're encoding the overlaps it would be nice for them to be able to specify when you know , the start points and end points of overlaps . professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: uh th - they 're making really quick progress . professor g: yeah . that 's great . postdoc f: and , um , so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . and it 'll be i 'm i 'm i 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that . professor g: that 's great . grad a: and did you , uh , forward morgan brian 's thing ? professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i sent it to , um who did i send that to ? i sent it to a list and i thought i sent it to the e to the local list . phd e: meeting recorder . grad a: oh , you did ? ok . so you probably did get that . postdoc f: you saw that ? so brian did tell me that in fact what you said , that , uh that our that they are making progress and that he 's going that they 're going he 's gon na check the f the output of the first transcription and and professor g: i mean , basically it 's it 's all the difference in the world . i mean , basically he 's he 's on it now . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: oh , that 's this is a new development . professor g: so so so this is so i it 'll happen . postdoc f: ok . super . super . ok . great . professor g: yeah . i mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it , postdoc f: yeah . professor g: you know , who just does n't happen to be here anymore . someone else pays him . so phd b: but about the need for transcription , postdoc f: is n't that great ? phd b: i mean , do n't we did n't we previously decide that the ibm transcripts would have to be checked anyway and possibly augmented ? professor g: so . yeah . postdoc f: yes . that 's true . phd b: so , i think having a good tool is worth something no matter what . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . s ok . that 's that 's a good point . grad a: yeah , and dave gelbart did volunteer , postdoc f: good . grad a: and since he 's not here , i 'll repeat it to at least modify transcriber , which , if we do n't have something else that works , i think that 's a pretty good way of going . phd c: mmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we discussed on some methods to do it . my approach originally , and i 've already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because i was trying to display all the waveforms . but he pointed out that you do n't really have to . i think that 's a good point . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: that if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient . professor g: hmm . postdoc f: yeah , exactly . and just keep those things separate . and and , um , dan ellis 's hack already allows them to be able to display different waveforms to clarify overlaps and things , grad a: no . they can only display one , postdoc f: so that 's already grad a: but they can listen to different ones . postdoc f: oh , yes , but well , uh , yes , but what i mean is that , uh , from the transcriber 's perspective , uh , those two functions are separate . and dan ellis 's hack handles the , um , choice the ability to choose different waveforms from moment to moment . grad a: but only to listen to , not to look at . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: um grad a: the waveform you 're looking at does n't change . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: that 's true . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: yeah , but that 's that 's ok , cuz they 're they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway . grad a: right . postdoc f: and then and then professor g: hmm . postdoc f: the hack to preserve the overlaps better would be one which creates different output files for each channel , grad a: right . postdoc f: which then would also serve liz 's request of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio . professor g: mm - hmm . have , uh , folks from nist been in contact with you ? postdoc f: not directly . i 'm trying to think if if i could have gotten it over a list . professor g: ok . postdoc f: i do n't i do n't think so . professor g: ok . well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in in in they seem to want to get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us . postdoc f: oh ! this was from before december . yeah . professor g: right . because they 're they 're presumably going to start recording next month . postdoc f: ok . ok . grad a: oh , we should definitely get with them then , professor g: so . grad a: and agree upon a format . though i do n't remember email on that . so was i not in the loop on that ? professor g: um . yeah , i do n't think i mailed anybody . i just think i told them to contact jane that , uh , if they had a grad a: oh , ok . postdoc f: that 's right . professor g: if , uh that that , uh , as the point person on it . grad a: yeah , i think that 's right . professor g: but grad a: just , uh professor g: so , yeah . maybe i 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to get that straight . postdoc f: ok . i 'm keeping the conventions absolutely as simple as possible . professor g: yeah . so is it cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a a there 'll be collections at columbia , collections at at uw i mean dan dan is very interested in doing some other things , grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same . professor g: and collections at nist . so yeah . grad a: so . postdoc f: n there was also this , uh , email from dan regarding the speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing . grad a: yep . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: i do n't know if , uh , uh , we wan na , uh and dan gel - and dave gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect of using amplitude as a a a as a basis for the separation . grad a: cross - correlation . professor g: oh , yeah . he was talking he was talking i mean , uh , we he had postdoc f: cross professor g: yeah , cross - correlation . phd c: cross professor g: i had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , uh , voice , uh you know , active miking , postdoc f: uh - huh . professor g: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . and and you basically compare the energy here to some function of all of the mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who who 's talking . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh and those those systems work very well , by the way , i mean , so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of , phd d: uh - huh . professor g: uh and , uh , those if boy , the guy i knew who built them , built them like twenty twenty years ago , grad a: hmm . professor g: so they 're it 's the the techniques work pretty well . postdoc f: fantastic . cuz there is one thing that we do n't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier . professor g: so . postdoc f: that that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: the the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do if that were available . professor g: yeah . so i think , you know , basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is , postdoc f: but . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor g: uh , and we also have these we have the advantage of having distant mikes too . so that , you cou yo grad a: yeah , although the the using the close - talking i think would be much better . would n't it ? postdoc f: yeah . professor g: um . i i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor g: i just it 'd be if i was actually working on it , i 'd sit there and and play around with it , and and get a feeling for it . i mean , the the the , uh but , uh , you certainly wan na use the close - talking , as a at least . grad a: right . professor g: i do n't know if the other would would add some other helpful dimension or not . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . what what are the different , uh , classes to to code , uh , the the overlap , you will use ? postdoc f: um , to code d phd d: what you you postdoc f: so types of overlap ? phd d: yeah . postdoc f: um , so at a meeting that was n't transcribed , we worked up a a typology . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and , um phd d: look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? the ? yeah ? yeah . postdoc f: yes , exactly . that has n't changed . so it i the it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether the person who 's interrupted continues or not . and then below that there 're subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , you know , is it , uh , simply backchannel phd d: mm - hmm . postdoc f: or is it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought . grad a: right . and i hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred . phd d: huh . yeah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . well , one would phd d: we hope . grad a: yeah . who knows ? postdoc f: that 'd be that 'd be nice . i mean , i i i i 've phd b: so who 's gon na do that ? who 's gon na do forced alignment ? grad a: well , u uh , ibm was going to . um phd b: oh , ok . phd d: oh . grad a: and i imagine they still plan to but but , you know , i have n't spoken with them about that recently . phd b: ok . phd d: uh - huh . professor g: well , uh , my suggestion now is is on all of these things to , uh , contact brian . grad a: ok . i 'll do that . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: this is wonderful to have a direct contact like that . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: uh well , th lem me ask you this . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: it occurs to me one of my transcribers t told me today that she 'll be finished with one meeting , um , by professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: well , she said tomorrow but then she said you know , but the , you know let 's let 's just , uh , say professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . i could send brian the , um the transcript . i know these are er , uh , i could send him that if it would be possible , or a good idea or not , to try to do a s forced alignment on what we 're on the way we 're encoding overlaps now . professor g: well , just talk to him about it . grad a: yep . postdoc f: good . professor g: i mean , you know , basically he 's he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and , postdoc f: yeah ! professor g: uh , they and and , you know , the the organization always did wan na help us . postdoc f: super . super . professor g: it was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time . grad a: right . postdoc f: yeah , yeah . professor g: so , um , eh grad a: is he on the mailing list ? the meeting recorder mailing li ? postdoc f: oh ! grad a: we should add him . postdoc f: yeah . i i i do n't know for sure . professor g: yeah . phd e: did something happen , morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it , grad a: add him . phd e: or ? professor g: no , i , eh , eh , p it it oc i h it 's yeah , something happened . i do n't know what . phd b: he asked for more work . phd e: huh . professor g: but he 's on it now . postdoc f: that would be like that 'd be like him . he 's great . professor g: right . so , uh , where are we ? maybe , uh , uh , brief well , let 's why do n't we talk about microphone issues ? postdoc f: yeah . that 'd be great . professor g: that was that was a grad a: um , so one thing is that i did look on sony 's for a replacement for the mikes for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . but i think i need someone who knows more about mikes than i do , because i could n't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . does anyone , like , know stores or know about mikes who who would know the right questions to ask ? professor g: oh , i probably would . i mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same . grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: so uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that . phd e: you could n't you could n't find the right connector to go into these things ? grad a: yep . when i looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it phd e: huh ! grad a: as having that type of connector . but my guess is that sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . and and so professor g: mm - hmm . well , let 's look at it together grad a: it seems it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one . professor g: and postdoc f: and there 's no adaptor for it ? phd c: yeah . postdoc f: seems like there 'd be a ok . grad a: as i said , who knows ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: who who are we buying these from ? grad a: um , professor g: that 'd be grad a: i have it downstairs . i do n't remember off the top of my head . professor g: yeah . ok . yeah . we we can try and look at that together . grad a: and then , uh just in terms of how you wear them i mean , i had thought about this before . i mean , when when when you use a product like dragondictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on . postdoc f: oh . grad a: but i felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gon na get people to really do it and maybe it was n't worth concentrating on . but professor g: well , i think that that 's that 's a good back - off position . that 's what i was saying earlier , th that , you know , we are gon na get some recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . but i i think that it it does n't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people wear the microphones properly , if possible , grad a: mm - hmm . professor g: because , um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table . grad a: oh . that 's true . professor g: i mean , i think , you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people are n't gon na be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: so this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , it 's gon na make you know , if if an - andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gon na be m wan na be messed up by people breathing into the microphone . grad a: right . professor g: so it 's it 's , uh , uh grad a: well , i 'll dig through the documentation to dragondictate and ste s see if they still have the little form . professor g: but it does happen . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , and any phd b: it 's interesting , uh , i talked to some ibm guys , uh , last january , i think , i was there . and so people who were working on the on their viavoice dictation product . professor g: yeah . phd b: and they said , uh , the breathing is really a a terrible problem for them , to to not recognize breathing as speech . postdoc f: wow . phd b: so , anything to reduce breathing is is is a good thing . professor g: yeah . grad a: well , that 's the it seemed to me when i was using dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an in , uh an enormous amount . phd b: mm - hmm . grad a: so you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it does n't the wind does n't hit the mike . phd b: right . mm - hmm . grad a: and then , uh everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . and then just close enough so that you get good volume . so you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: is uh - huh . professor g: i remember when i was when i i i i used , uh , um , a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , uh this was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve twelve years ago or something . and , um , they were they were perturbed with me because i was breathing in instead of breathing out . and they had models for they they had markov models for br breathing out but they did n't have them for breathing in . phd d: yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: that 's interesting . well , what i wondered is whether it 's possible to have to maybe use the display at the beginning grad a: yeah . postdoc f: to be able to to judge how how correctly i mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing . grad a: i mean , when when it 's on , you can see it . postdoc f: i do n't know if the if it 's professor g: i grad a: you can definitely see it . postdoc f: can you see the breathing ? grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: cuz i grad a: absolutely . postdoc f: oh . professor g: yeah . grad a: and so , you know , i 've i 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing , professor g: i grad a: and the bar going up and down , and i 'm thinking , i could say something , but professor g: i mean , i think grad a: i do n't want to make people self - conscious . stop breathing ! professor g: it it 's going to be imperfect . postdoc f: yeah . uh - huh . professor g: you 're not gon na get it perfect . and you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle phd d: yeah . postdoc f: good . professor g: but not too far away . postdoc f: yeah , i professor g: and then , you know , i think there 's not much because you ca n't al you know , interfere w you ca n't fine tune the meeting that much , i think . grad a: right . phd d: yeah . professor g: it 's sort of postdoc f: that 's true . it just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth doing . grad a: yep . and then also the position of the mike also . if it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . so so , like , yours is pretty far down below your mouth . yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: but mm - hmm . my my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and and just fan fantastic to phd c: yeah . phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . grad a: i do n't know why that is . postdoc f: well , i mean , you yeah , of course . you 're you 're also uh , your volume is is greater . but but still , i mean , they they say grad a: i 've been eating a lot . postdoc f: i it makes their their job extremely easy . professor g: uh . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: and then there 's mass . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: anyway . postdoc f: i could say something about about the well , i do n't know what you wan na do . yeah . professor g: about what ? postdoc f: about the transcribers or anything or ? i do n't know . professor g: well , the other phd b: but , uh , just to to , um professor g: why do n't we do that ? phd b: one more remark , uh , concerning the sri recognizer . um . it is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to to model . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so , grad a: so , phd b: if you can in your transcripts mark grad a: mark them ? phd b: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially , phd c: mmm . phd b: um postdoc f: they are . phd b: ok . postdoc f: they 're putting eh , so in curly brackets they put `` inhale `` or `` breath `` . grad a: oh , great . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: it they and then in curly brackets they say `` laughter `` . now they 're they 're not being awfully precise , uh , m so they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: one is when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence . phd b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . so , um , i i did s i did some double checking to look through i mean , you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of of the laughing through the utterance . phd b: it 's not so i do n't think it 's , um postdoc f: and that and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying `` curly brackets laughing `` a after the unit . phd b: as as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between two words i think that 's sufficient , phd c: yeah . postdoc f: good . oh ! grad a: against they could do forced alignment . postdoc f: ok . phd b: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um you know , is pretty good . phd c: yeah . phd b: so as long as you can stick a you know , a t a tag in there that that indicates that there was laughter , grad a: oh , i did n't know that . phd b: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models . postdoc f: ok . grad a: that would be a really interesting prosodic feature , postdoc f: then phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and let me ask y and i got ta ask you one thing about that . grad a: when phd b: hmm . postdoc f: so , um , if they laugh between two words , you you 'd get it in between the two words . phd b: mm - hmm . right . postdoc f: but if they laugh across three or four words you you get it after those four words . does that matter ? phd d: yeah . phd b: well , the thing that you is hard to deal with is whe when they speak while laughing . um , and that 's , uh i do n't think that we can do very well with that . grad a: right . phd b: so phd d: yeah . phd b: but , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking , postdoc f: ok . grad a: so are do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ? phd b: so professor g: uh is it ? phd d: huh . i i think it 's frequent in in the meeting . postdoc f: i think he 's right . yeah . phd b: we tried both . uh , currently , um , we use special words . there was a there 's actually a word for uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth grad a: mm - hmm . mouth stuff ? phd b: uh , mouth mouth stuff . and then laughter is a is a special word . grad a: how would we do that with the hybrid system ? professor g: same thing . grad a: so train a phone in the neural net ? phd b: same thing ? yeah . yeah . you ha oh . and each of these words has a dedicated phone . professor g: no grad a: oh , it does ? phd b: so the so the the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that . grad a: right . so in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone . professor g: yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: i mean , it 's it 's it 's always the same thing . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: right ? i mean , you could you could say well , let we now think that laughter should have three sub sub sub - units in the the three states , uh different states . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then you would have three i mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u grad a: do whatever you want . phd b: and the the pronun the pronunciations the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard . phd d: yeah . professor g: yeah , yeah . phd d: no . phd b: they actually are uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can grad a: to go on forever ? phd b: r can go on forever . grad a: and how do you handle it in the language model ? phd b: it 's just a it 's just a word . grad a: it 's just a word in the language model . phd b: we train it like any other word . grad a: cool . phd b: yeah . we also tried , um , absorbing these uh , both laughter and and actually also noise , and , um phd d: yeah . phd b: yes . ok . anyway . we also tried absorbing that into the pause model i mean , the the the model that that matches the stuff between words . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , um , it did n't work as well . so . grad a: huh . ok . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: can you hand me your digit form ? phd b: sorry . grad a: i just wan na mark that you did not read digits . professor g: ok . say hi for me . postdoc f: good . you you did get me to thinking about i i 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing i think it may be an individual thing . some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking . professor g: yeah . grad a: i was noticing that with dan in the one that we , uh we hand tran hand - segmented , professor g: yeah . i think postdoc f: but i ca n't phd d: yeah . grad a: that th he has these little chuckles as he talks . postdoc f: yeah . ok . professor g: i 'm sure it 's very individual . and and one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . we have this very , very tiny sample of of phd d: yeah . postdoc f: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad a: speech researchers ? professor g: uh , yeah . and yeah , r right . phd d: speech research . professor g: so , uh , who knows . uh yeah . why don why do n't we just since we 're on this vein , why do n't we just continue with , uh , what you were gon na say about the transcriptions postdoc f: ok . professor g: and ? postdoc f: um , um , the i i 'm really very for i 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . they are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um and i 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this . grad a: cuz they 're gon na be transcribing it in a few days . postdoc f: no , they 're super . they 're the they very quick . phd e: ok . turn the mikes off and let 's talk . postdoc f: yeah , i know . i am i 'm serious . they 're just super . so i , um , e you know , i i brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because i think people can raise questions grad a: that 's a good idea . postdoc f: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different and um , i trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . this also gives me a sense of you know , i can i can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . but the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , you know , the idea of the th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these th sort of calibration issues . and then , um , i just set them loose and they 're they all have e a already background in using computers . they 're , um they 're trained in linguistics . grad a: good . oh , no . is that good or bad ? postdoc f: they got professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: well , they they 're very perce they 'll so one of them said `` well , you know , he really said `` n `` , not really `` and `` , phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: so what what should i do with that ? `` grad a: yeah . postdoc f: and i said , `` well for our purposes , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: i do have a convention . if it 's an a noncanonical p `` that one , i think we you know , with eric 's work , i sort of figure we we can just treat that as a variant . but i told them if if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like i said in one thing , professor g: ok . yes . postdoc f: and i gave my my example , like i said , `` microfon `` in instead of `` microphone `` . did n't bother i knew it when i said it . i remember s thinking `` oh , that 's not correctly pronounced `` . but it but i thought it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what what you mean . grad a: you 'll self - repair . yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: but i have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation a speech error with you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native english american english speaker , you know that i did n't mean to say `` microfon . `` then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word , professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets `` pron error `` . and , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . but , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the `` nnn `` . `` he said `` nnn `` , not `` and `` . what shall i do with that ? `` i mean , they 're very perceptive . and and s several of them are trained in ipa . c they really could do phonetic transcription if if we wanted them to . professor g: mm - hmm . right . well well , you know , it might be something we 'd wan na do with some , uh , s small subset of the whole thing . grad a: hmm . where were they when we needed them ? postdoc f: i think professor g: we certainly would n't wan na do it with everything . postdoc f: and i 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . i mean , if , uh so i i told them that , um , we do n't know if this will continue past the end of the month professor g: uh - huh . postdoc f: and i also m i think they know that the data p source is limited and i may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although i hope to . professor g: the other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps . postdoc f: and oh , that 'd be so super . they would be so s so terrific . grad a: i mean , this was something that we were talking about . professor g: right ? grad a: we could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . right ? one for each participant . so they could by hand professor g: well , that 's one way to do it . grad a: yeah . professor g: but i 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps . grad a: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm , that 's right . professor g: right ? postdoc f: and with the right in interface professor g: given that y and and do so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: which we know from the steve 's experience with the switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . and and you know , it took them i do n't know how many months to do to get four hours . and so that has n't been really our focus . uh , we can consider it . but , i mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: but anyway , i 'm i 'm open to c our consideration . postdoc f: that 'd be great . phd d: hmm . professor g: i i do n't wan na say that by fiat . postdoc f: yeah . professor g: i 'm open to every consideration of what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: and , uh , uh , phd d: hmm . professor g: i i i think this year we we actually , uh , can do it . postdoc f: oh , wonderful . professor g: it 's a we have we have due to @ @ { comment } variations in funding we have we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this this year , and next year we may have have much less . grad a: is you mean two thousand one ? professor g: so i do n't wan na hire a grad a: calendar year or ? professor g: uh , i mean , calendar year two thousand one . grad a: ok . professor g: yeah . so it 's uh , it 's we do n't wan na hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff , grad a: full - time . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah . professor g: because the the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . but having temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding . postdoc f: wonderful . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: and then school will start in in the sixt on the sixteenth . professor g: so . postdoc f: some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point . professor g: yeah . phd e: are they working full - time now , or ? postdoc f: but some of them are . grad a: wow . postdoc f: yeah . well , why do i would n't say forty - hour weeks . no . but what i mean is oh , i should n't say it that way because that does sound like forty - hour weeks . no . i th i i would say they 're probably they do n't have o they do n't have other things that are taking away their time . grad a: i do n't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription . phd e: hmm . postdoc f: but it 's you ca n't . professor g: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: no . you 're right . it 's i it would be too taxing . but , um , they 're putting in a lot of professor g: yeah . postdoc f: and and i checked them over . professor g: i postdoc f: i i i have n't checked them all , but just spot - checking . they 're fantastic . grad a: i think it would be professor g: i remember when we were transcribing berp , uh , uh , uh , ron kay , uh , volunteered to to do some of that . and , he was the first first stuff he did was transcribing chuck . and he 's saying `` you you know , i always thought chuck spoke really well . `` postdoc f: yeah . yeah . well , you know , and i also thought , y liz has this , eh , you know , and i do also , this this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . these people would be great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted , grad a: we 'd have to mark them . postdoc f: or whatever . so , um . professor g: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: i think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do , professor g: yeah . grad a: cuz i 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: ok . yeah . th - that 'd be i think that 's a a good idea . professor g: yeah . postdoc f: you know , there 's also , the e in my mind , i think a an - andreas was leading to this topic , the idea that , um , we have n't yet seen the the type of transcript that we get from ibm , and it may just be , you know , pristine . but on the other hand , given the lesser interface cuz this is , you know we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um professor g: it could be that they will uh theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something . postdoc f: something like that . professor g: maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gon na do these alignments , which will also clear things up . postdoc f: that 's that 's true . al - although you have to s do n't you have to start with a close enough approximation of the of the verbal part to be able to ? professor g: well , tha that 's that 's debatable . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? i mean , so the so the argument is that if your statistical system is good it will in fact , uh , clean things up . postdoc f: ok . professor g: right ? so it it 's got its own objective criterion . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough i mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back back when chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , you 'd break up the word , uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross . grad a: wrong . phd d: yeah . professor g: right ? i mean , th the timing is off all over the place in just about any word . postdoc f: mm - hmm . ok . professor g: but it 's o k . you start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that does n't really look too bad . postdoc f: oh , excellent . ok . professor g: so so i think using a a good aligner , um , actually can can help a lot . um . but , uh , you know , they both help each other . if you have a if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . if you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in in taking less time to correct things . postdoc f: ok . professor g: so so postdoc f: excellent . i guess there 's another aspect , too , and i do n't know uh , this this is very possibly a different , uh , topic . but , uh , just let me say with reference to this idea of , um , higher - order organization within meetings . so like in a you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data , professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: so being able to find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um e i mean , i i i did sort of a a rough pass on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: already transcribed meeting . and i do n't know if , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: where that i if that 's something that we wan na do with each meeting , sort of like a , um it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or or if that 's , um professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: i mean , i i i do n't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . i do n't know i if that 's something that i should do when i look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever . professor g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: but this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . ok . professor g: yeah . meaning really is n't my thing . um grad a: i think it just whoever is interested can do that . i mean , so if someone wants to use that data postdoc f: ok . professor g: we 're running a little short here . postdoc f: that 's fine . professor g: we , uh , uh , cou trying to postdoc f: i 'm finished . professor g: eh , was p well , you know , the thing i 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits postdoc f: oh , yeah . professor g: and and i have n't heard , uh , from jose yet . postdoc f: oh , yes . phd d: ok . what do you want ? postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so grad a: we could skip the digits . professor g: uh grad a: we do n't have to read digits each time . professor g: uh i i i think it you know , another another bunch of digits . more data is good . grad a: ok . phd d: yeah . sure . professor g: so so i 'd like to do that . but i think , do you , maybe , eh ? did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ? phd d: yeah . it 's it 's prepared . professor g: or what was that ? yeah . postdoc f: oh , k sorry . professor g: uh , how long a ? phd d: i i think it 's it 's fast , because , uh , i have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . eh , um , eh , in the in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the by the , um , variance . um , i th i professor g: yeah . phd d: the other , uh the the last w uh , meeting eh , i do n't know if you remain we have problem to with the with with the parameter with the representations of parameter , because the the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it does n't follow to the to the energy in the signal . professor g: yes . right . phd d: and it was a problem , uh , with the scale . grad a: with what ? phd d: eh , the scale . postdoc f: scale . grad a: scale . phd d: eh , and i i change the scale and we can see the the variance . professor g: ok . but the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: right ? phd d: the distribution the distribution is is similar . professor g: ok . so that 's that 's that 's enough then . ok . phd d: yeah . professor g: no , i mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor g: so , i i think we have to start uh , i mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh what we said before is that , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: um , it looks like , at least that you have n't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: um , i i 'm i 'm still a little f think that 's a little funny . these things l @ @ seems like there should be , phd d: yeah . professor g: but but you do n't want to keep , uh keep knocking at it if it 's if you 're not getting any any result with that . but , i mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things , phd d: yeah . professor g: so which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . um but , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in spain , phd d: yeah . professor g: which is to say , do n't worry so much about the , uh , features . phd d: yeah . professor g: that is to say , use , you know , as as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: and , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling . phd d: yeah . professor g: you know , have a have a couple markov models and and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap . phd d: hmm . professor g: and let the , uh , uh , statistical system determine what 's the right way to look at the data . phd d: yeah . professor g: i i , um , i think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . i think that you 'd end up with a better system overall . phd d: yeah . professor g: but given the limitation in time and given the fact that javier 's system already exists doing this sort of thing , phd d: yeah . professor g: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: maybe that 's a better place to go . phd d: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: so . phd d: i i i think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in in in the speech class , professor g: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of from a speaker and overlapping , to try to to do , eh , eh , a fast a fast , eh , experiment to to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , eh , can solve the the the problem , professor g: yeah . phd d: and wh what nnn , how far is professor g: maybe . yeah . phd d: and , i i have prepared the the pitch tracker now . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: and i hope the the next week i will have , eh , some results and we we will show we will see , eh , the the parameter the pitch , eh , tracking in with the program . professor g: i see . phd d: and , nnn , nnn professor g: ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ? phd c: no . no . phd d: no . professor g: oh . maybe m you could , you kn uh show thilo that . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . sure . phd d: yeah . professor g: cuz again the idea is there the limitation there again was that he was he was only using it to look at silence as a as a as a as a p putative split point between speakers . phd d: yeah . professor g: but if you included , uh , broadened classes then in principle maybe you can cover the overlap cases . phd c: ok . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah , but i 'm not too sure if if we can really represent overlap with with the s detector i i i used up to now , phd d: mmm , yeah . professor g: uh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think with phd c: the to speech - nonspeech as grad a: that 's right . but i think javier 's phd c: it 's only speech or it 's it 's it 's nonspeech . phd d: ah . yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: i think javier 's might be able to . phd c: so . professor g: n n grad a: it does n't have the same gaus - uh , h m m modeling , phd c: yeah . grad a: which is i think a drawback . phd c: ok . grad a: but , uh professor g: well , it 's sort of has a simple one . phd d: mmm , yeah . grad a: does it ? professor g: right ? it 's it 's just it 's just a is n't it just a gaussian phd d: yeah . professor g: for each ? grad a: yeah . and then he ch you choose optimal splitting . phd d: hmm . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . oh , it does n't have it does n't have any temporal , uh ? grad a: maybe i 'm misremembering , but i did not think it had a markov professor g: i thought it yeah . i gues i guess i do n't remember either . uh . it 's been a while . phd c: yeah . uh , i could have a look at it . phd d: javier professor g: uh . phd c: so . phd d: you mean ja - eh , eh , javier program ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: no , javier di does n't worked with , uh , a markov grad a: yeah , i did n't think so . phd d: he on only train professor g: oh , ok . so he 's just he just computes a gaussian over potential grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . it was only gaussian . professor g: oh , i see . i see . grad a: and so i i think it would work fine for detecting overlap . phd d: this is the idea . professor g: and and grad a: it 's just , uh , that i it he has the two - pass issue that what he does is , as a first pass he he p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . and that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval . phd c: ok . grad a: and so those are the putative places where he tries . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . ok . grad a: and right now he 's doing that with silence and that does n't work with the meeting recorder . so if we used another method to get the first pass , i think it would probably work . phd c: yeah . yeah . sure . yeah . yeah , ok . grad a: it 's a good method . as long as the len as long the segments are long enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: that 's the other problem . phd c: so professor g: o - k ok . so let me go back to what you had , though . phd c: yeah . professor g: um . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: the other thing one could do is could n't i mean , it 's so you have two categories phd c: yeah . professor g: and you have markov models for each . could n't you have a third category ? so you have , uh you have , uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ? postdoc f: he has this on his board actually . do n't you have , like those those several different categories on the board ? professor g: right ? and then you have a markov model for each ? phd c: um i 'm not sure . i i thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . but it 's not too easy , i think , the the transition between the different class , to model them in in the system i have now . but it it it could be possible , i think , professor g: i see . i see . phd c: in principle . professor g: yeah , i mean , i this is all pretty gross . phd d: yeah . professor g: i mean , the th the reason why , uh , i was suggesting originally that we look at features is because i thought , well , we 're doing something we have n't done before , phd c: yeah . professor g: we should at least look at the space and understand phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: it seems like if two people two or more people talk at once , it should get louder , phd c: yeah . professor g: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours , phd c: i had the impression . phd d: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor g: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic sequence in the spectrum . grad a: right . phd c: yeah . professor g: so those are all things that should be there . phd c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor g: so far , um , uh , jose has has been by the way , i was told i should be calling you pepe , but phd d: yeah . professor g: by your friends , but anyway , phd d: yeah . professor g: um , uh , the has has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds . phd c: yeah . professor g: and then there 's , you know is it energy ? is it log energy ? is it lpc residual energy ? is it is it is it , uh , delta of those things ? uh , what is it no obviously , just a simple number absolute number is n't gon na work . so it should be with compared to what ? should there be a long window for the normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ? phd c: yeah . professor g: or , you know , how b short should they be ? so , phd d: hmm . professor g: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and and so far at least has not come up with any combination that really gave you an indicator . phd d: yeah . professor g: so i i still have a hunch that there 's it 's in there some place , but it may be given that you have a limited time here , it it just may not be the best thing to to to focus on for the remaining of it . phd d: yeah . to overrule , yeah . professor g: so pitch - related and harmonic - related , i 'm i 'm somewhat more hopeful for it . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor g: but it seems like if we just wan na get something to work , phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor g: that , uh , their suggestion of of th - they were suggesting going to markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what javier did . and one of those things , looking at the statistical component , phd d: one . phd c: yeah . professor g: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank phd c: yeah . professor g: or or cepstrum or something , um eee it 's in there somewhere probably . phd d: but , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the javier software ? eh , i mean , the , uh the , uh the bic criterion , the the t to train the the gaussian , eh , using the the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . i mean , eh , i i i think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the the first step i mean , the the classifier what were the classifier from javier or classifier from thilo ? w what happen with the second step ? i i mean , what what happen with the , eh the , uh , clu the , uh the clu the clustering process ? grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: using the the gaussian . grad a: you mean javier 's ? phd d: yeah . grad a: what do you mean ? phd d: i i mean , that is is enough is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? because th if if we if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier and the second step does n't work well , eh , we have another problem . grad a: i yeah . i had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample , phd d: n grad a: and it worked pretty well , but i have n't worked with it a lot . so what i d i d i took a hand - segmented sample phd d: nnn , yeah . grad a: and i added ten times the amount of numbers at random , phd d: yeah . grad a: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries . phd d: oh . yeah . but is is if grad a: but this was just very anecdotal sort of thing . phd d: but it 's possible with my segmentation by hand that we have information about the the overlapping , grad a: right . so if we if we fed the hand - segmentation to javier 's and it does n't work , then we know something 's wrong . phd d: uh yeah . the n n yeah . no . the demonstration by hand . segmentation by hand i i i think is the fast experiment . grad a: yeah . i think that 's probably worthwhile doing . phd d: uh , we can prove that the professor g: uh - huh . grad a: whether it 'll work or not . phd d: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and gaussian grad a: yeah . professor g: yeah . grad a: yep . y do you know where his software is ? have you used it at all ? phd d: i yeah have . i have . grad a: ok . phd d: grad a: so . i i have as well , so if you need need help let me know . phd d: ok . professor g: let 's read some digits . grad a: ok . uuh postdoc f: mm - hmm . grad a: and we are { disfmarker }

the praat software package was discussed as an alternative transcription tool capable of representing multiple channels of speech . cross-correlation was discussed as a means of enabling speaker identification , and may be integrated into future work .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: is everyone ready to start ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . great . well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . i 'll just get the powerpoint presentation up and running . okay . um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we 'll have your three presentations on what you 've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . and , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we 're gon na make it , what uh materials we 're gon na use , and that sort of thing . industrial designer: project manager: the meeting will be forty minutes long . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and um we will once again have poppy as our first presenter . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , and i will switch up powerpoint . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: okay . industrial designer: should be just loading . okay . oh , although i ca n't see it on my screen . that says go here . okay . i 've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what 's available to us f to actually make the remote control . um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source . marketing: industrial designer: which is not necessarily a battery , as we 're about to see . um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we 'll be getting them from , what they 'll be made of . um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . which is where all the main information is uh contained . um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . um , and all their positioning in the circuit . project manager: um are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ? industrial designer: uh , these , they 're all different options , they 're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: we can go into that later . um , all the other things are individual components that we 'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . and the l_e_d_ of course , that 's a light emitting diode . so , we could , so we 've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . we could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . and they 're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . there 's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . a bit out of date . kinetic energy is something that 's been recently developed . project manager: um what is a hand-powered dynamo ? industrial designer: um , where you manually charge up the power . project manager: just every , every once in a while ? industrial designer: like you wind up something . project manager: just every once in a while or constantly ? industrial designer: sorry ? yeah . every once in a while i think project manager: alright . it 'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it i think . industrial designer: . but it 's yeah . it would be like going a step back in time . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology . project manager: no . marketing: industrial designer: whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that 's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . i mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . um , or there 's solar power , which we 've been considering inside a building , which is where it 's gon na be used , might not be quite so useful . project manager: right . industrial designer: but , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . that 's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . like how it 's comfortable and s sits in the hand . we do n't want something that 's huge and you ca n't pick up . or too small . or too slidy . i know i 've had a remote control before which you could n't tell which was the front and the back , user interface: industrial designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that i 'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: because you ca n't really see which way round it is . project manager: right . industrial designer: um , we also can choose what materials um , the we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-r_s_i_ . it 's like the same sort of rubber that 's used in stress balls and things like that , so it 's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: wood . project manager: industrial designer: um , again , stepping back in time again there . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think that 's quite up to date with what we 're looking for here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , titanium is not gon na be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . but , would 've been maybe for future projects . um right our choice for buttons as well . we 've developed some we 've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . i think that was brought up for , um , they 're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you do n't have to use individual buttons . you can just slide up and down . i 'm sure we 're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: um one thing with the scroll buttons though . it , it industrial designer: project manager: we would have to have an lcd um industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . project manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult . industrial designer: and that would lead to an advanced yeah . if we have yeah . we 're going on to that later with the advanc with the lcd that means we 'd need a really advanced chip . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it 's unlikely that that 's gon na be in our budget . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um , also we 've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we 're most familiar with . it 's the most straightforward . but you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . . got decisions to make there . and this is what i was just saying before . linked in the different depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . um simple would go with the pushbutton . um , regular you could link with the scroll button . and the advanced we 'd have to go with a lcd s display . project manager: right . industrial designer: my personal preferences ? i think we could go for the kinetic energy source . i do n't , i think that 's quite um an advanced kind of technology . it 's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . and also energy saving 'cause you 're producing the energy , you do n't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . you just give it a shake . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: sounds brilliant to me . project manager: uh . industrial designer: rubber casing i thing would probably the best , if we 're going for the anti-r_s_i_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . like it could be pretty much any colour we want . um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . and probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple , marketing: industrial designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no lcd , 'cause we probably ca n't afford that one . project manager: yeah . um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these chips and diodes and delicate technology as industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: like as the exterior . this is the one thing that 's protecting its innards . industrial designer: i think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . and the rubber would just be the , what 's in contact with the human . project manager: yeah . another thing is it might be more difficult if it 's a rubber exterior talking about putting on interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , is it industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i do n't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . it would work that way . industrial designer: maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case . user interface: w industrial designer: so , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable . user interface: like plastic with rubber , kind of on top industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like i ca n't think of what . user interface: well , there 's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or like an user interface: b like a nokia it is . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you can get sort of outer casing for ipods and something , that 's just it 's protective as well . user interface: it 's yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: like the skin ? industrial designer: it , it stops it , i mean , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it would n't damage itself so easily . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: alright . so maybe the industrial designer: i think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber . industrial designer: and then yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the buttons obviously are rubber . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: that sounds good . i , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ? industrial designer: as far as i know . it should be . project manager: okay , marketing: project manager: we 'll just say yeah . user interface: project manager: yes , just why not . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: alright . i like the kinetic energy source idea . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , i do n't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot . industrial designer: i thought that was project manager: but i think that it 's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um user interface: yeah , tha marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: energy source . it could make an we could have any kind of style . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it would n't be as heavy or bulky , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . just for environmental reasons . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: i guess it 's a bit scary 'cause it has n't been done before . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it seems we 'd have to do more research on it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or i dunno if you could have a battery pack . industrial designer: like as a backup for something . user interface: backup . yeah . marketing: yeah so there 's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries i believe . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so , if it was running off of one battery as a user interface: that would be good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . some alternative just in case something went wrong . marketing: right . user interface: maybe we could you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power . industrial designer: that 's true . i just thought of that . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: so maybe that could be incorporated as industrial designer: may maybe that could be the backup . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: instead of a battery . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like solar backup . marketing: although it needs some light , does n't it ? industrial designer: yeah . i suppose project manager: yeah , you can watch a tv in the dark then . user interface: do , do those calculators industrial designer: s but some marketing: so , if we 're doing user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . if we 're industrial designer: but thing is , it 's not you do n't need the solar all the time . user interface: i do n't know how it works . industrial designer: it can be stored . it can be like you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like a few hours a day . . project manager: i think that might be a little impractical though . marketing: yeah . i think sometimes it 's just shoved under , under a cushion , project manager: yeah . marketing: and yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . it could easily user interface: yeah . project manager: like people do n't wan na have to worry about that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , i forgot to charge my remote today . user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like if the kinetic thing , i think what 's best about that is that it 's instant energy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it works . project manager: or just like pick it up when you 're gon na use it . industrial designer: yeah . instead of you do n't have to like make sure it 's in the right place to charge and . user interface: yeah , i suppose . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . cool . industrial designer: k okay . project manager: 's that the end of your presentation . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: there we go . user interface: thanks . oh . it 's not on my screen . industrial designer: it was n't on mine either . user interface: why ? industrial designer: i do n't know why . i think , i just , i just used the mouse on there . user interface: you do n't know why ? oh okay . is it that one ? project manager: yeah . that 's um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um , i 'm just gon na go through the interface concept with yous now . uh , first of all i 'll explain what a user interface is . it 's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or by the human user . and it 's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . um , there are two types of user interfaces . there 's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . so that 's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about . project manager: oh . okay . yeah . user interface: yeah . i 'm not really sure about the pictures that maybe that 's on an lcd screen . industrial designer: mm . user interface: or maybe it 's the the buttons or pictures or something . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: do you think it 's project manager: yeah , 'cause industrial designer: so i suppose sometime project manager: i 'm sorry ? industrial designer: after you . user interface: project manager: um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . you 're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm . user interface: so you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics . industrial designer: i s i suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have like the power would be s some kind of symbol . user interface: like an lcd screen . industrial designer: and if you wanted to go onto teletext or , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i know we 're not having that , but i mean a similar thing , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you , they have there 's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which i suppose it 's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably wo n't have to focus so much on that . project manager: yeah , we 'll be doing industrial designer: it 'll be more the on the numbers and the volume . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . it 'd be more a command interface , and then industrial designer: i suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so it 's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? industrial designer: i marketing: the infrared is like , that 's considered a project manager: hmm ? user interface: no i think it 's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that 's on the buttons of the remote control , and per marketing: okay . so when it says pointing device that does n't include industrial designer: for inp user interface: well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . i think they 're talking about lcd type things . industrial designer: mm . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: but um i think we 're gon na go with the command interface anyway , project manager: yeah . user interface: to make it more simplistic . but the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: as in just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . project manager: what do you mean ? user interface: like i ca n't think of an example , but sort of like little pictures rather than project manager: oh yeah , like how the buttons user interface: like a little sound . instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something . project manager: yeah , as a button though . user interface: yeah , something y marketing: mm . project manager: so , it 's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ? user interface: yeah m perha yeah . yeah . maybe . project manager: okay . yeah . i like that idea . user interface: um , the co uh we 've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . as it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we 'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . you know , make it more trendy and original . we 'll have more money if we keep it simple . project manager: yeah . i 'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . a bit more too , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . seeing as it 's quite a new technology . um we , we also have to keep in mind when we 're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms are n't always helpful . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . that 's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . user interface: yeah . and that all interfaces are different . so , um , that does n't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that 's easy to understand . and maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: does anyone have any questions ? project manager: do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look . user interface: mm . marketing: i think if we go with the um design plate thing , we 'll have to . just because of colour clashing , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if we wanted to , project manager: yeah . marketing: so and , and we might , i mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons . user interface: but um project manager: but what about the lighting up effect ? marketing: you mean different colours for the lighting or project manager: um , well , um , i thought we had um decided that we would if you touched one of the buttons they 'd all light up . and so if they were black , it would n't be possible for them to light up . marketing: mm-hmm . oh i see what you 're saying . project manager: if they were white they would glow , probably . marketing: well y project manager: if they were made out of rubber . marketing: oh so you 're picturing the light is coming from the back . i kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards . industrial designer: oh . project manager: oh . marketing: but , but i guess , you mean from the back . project manager: where would the light come from ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: i 'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something . project manager: yeah , marketing: right . project manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we have that taken care of . industrial designer: it should be able to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: in the phone that i was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber . industrial designer: li yeah . user interface: so you can change the buttons when you 're changing the faces . do you know what i mean ? marketing: oh . project manager: oh . user interface: 'cause it 's just the wee control , marketing: yeah . they , they insert over . user interface: yeah , thing that 's behind it . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . user interface: so i mean , we do n't have to decide on one colour . each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: well , if they 're raised up buttons . so that you can feel them . user interface: yeah . project manager: we were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible . marketing: t project manager: um , it might be more difficult to do . if they 're , if they 're sticking up . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it 's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it 's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think it would be possible . i do n't think it would make that much difference . i mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'cause if it 's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . you can like take off the hard cover and then there 's the like say the buttons . and then you get to the circuit . i do n't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . i 'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: i 'm sure that 'd be fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . if it 's do-able we can do . user interface: project manager: yeah , sounds good to me . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's everything , then ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , thank you . marketing: okay is that my turn then ? project manager: that means you 're up . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . i have a shorter report for you today . um , it took a while to get this , uh uh . industrial designer: you 're not plugged in yet . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: that 's a very good point . project manager: user interface: marketing: okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . sorry . there we go . um so , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . i also spoke with fashion experts in milan , new york and paris . and i looked at the design reports from previous years , here at real remote . um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . um , so i 'll list the three most important aspects that i 've come across . um , and they , they 're each more important than the one that comes after it . uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . um , this should be our priority , as we 've been saying . the second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . so , i think we 've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the face-plates . um , so it looks like we 'll be able to keep on track with that . and the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . so , pretty basic there . and the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in paris and milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . again , we 've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . um so , my personal preferences here , um of course , as we , we 've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and i 'd like to stick to that . the fruits and vegetable themes , i do n't know if that 's going to work for us . it sounds something that you 'd use on kitchenware . industrial designer: mm . marketing: i do n't know if we wan na do it on remotes . user interface: marketing: it could be one of the options . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we 're gon na stick to that . and then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that i find rather jarring . everything else we can really , we can really industrial designer: it is strange . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . but fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control . marketing: it 's , it 's a little but it , it 's everywhere . industrial designer: well user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so maybe we i 've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: but i i think , i think if we stick to tv based , you know , maybe tv shows , or project manager: but they still need to um fit into people 's decor though . user interface: yeah . marketing: or colour schemes . industrial designer: we i think we possibly could take a more abstract design . marketing: right . industrial designer: like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . and then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . i mean we do n't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or a strawberry seed or a leaf . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: the the essence of strawberry . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that 's fits in more with what we 're doing . instead of fruits and vegetables , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: just if you look at it straightforward , it 's a bit yeah . it does n't s quite fit in with the trendy well , obviously it does , if that 's the current theme . project manager: yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but may maybe we could go more directly , i do n't know . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but initially , i dunno . i think if we just sort of tone it down a bit . project manager: tone it down . yeah , industrial designer: yeah and like not , not marketing: i guess , yeah . project manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or banana-shaped . marketing: one thing i was thinking though is project manager: marketing: i dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe there could be animal-based , you know . because a lot of people have a house cat . or , or a dog . industrial designer: mm . marketing: um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . but it 's something to keep in mind . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and , did you have any questions ? pretty straightforward ? project manager: yeah um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . so i 'll need to um hook up the powerpoint again . marketing: there you go . have you guys been saving your powerpoint presentations to the industrial designer: i did n't for the first one . but i have now . marketing: okay . project manager: but it 's still around right ? industrial designer: yeah . uh , hopefully project manager: okay . user interface: where do you have to save it to ? industrial designer: . project documents i think . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . i 'm just trying to make this pop up now . alright . here we go . okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . so energy , we industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh . oh no i ca n't write it in when it 's in this setting . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: does anyone know how to take it out of um , user interface: just escape i think . marketing: the powerpoint ? project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . um , so back to decisions . energy , we 've decided on kinetic , right ? industrial designer: kinetic yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so that 's good . industrial designer: are we going to have a backup ? project manager: hmm . industrial designer: or do we just project manager: but would a backup really be necessary ? i mean will people just use the battery if there 's no , if there 's , industrial designer: i think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy , project manager: if there is backup . industrial designer: and be bold and innovative , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think project manager: there 's like no reason why it would n't work , right ? industrial designer: yeah . i think no . i , i think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential . marketing: so project manager: yeah . it could even be one of our selling points . industrial designer: go for it . it could be user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: fully kinetic energy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: environmentally conscious or something . industrial designer: is everyone happy with that ? marketing: so if it 's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: hope so . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , the next um decision is chip on print . i do n't exactly know what that means . industrial designer: um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . and that linked in with what buttons we would gon na have , so project manager: right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ? industrial designer: yeah , it was user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that was without the lcd . so that means we 're not doing the advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons . project manager: i think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ? industrial designer: uh , so that 's the simple . user interface: yeah . i don project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ? industrial designer: yeah possibly . project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: so , it 's probably gon na be the regular chip that we 're going to need . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's a medium . project manager: that 's called medium , or regular ? industrial designer: so regular chip . regular sorry . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: regular chip . marketing: oh , is regular not simple ? industrial designer: lighting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah if we user interface: it 's for the lighting , yeah . industrial designer: because of the lighting that we 've decided to put in as well . marketing: right right right . project manager: okay , and cases . um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it 's made of , or what ? industrial designer: so th i think this is just like gon na be the a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . well , i guess plastic and coated in rubber . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: yeah industrial designer: yeah . project manager: plastic with rubber industrial designer: plastic rubber coat . user interface: plastic coat . project manager: coating and interchangeable um industrial designer: interchangeable , yeah . still going for that . project manager: yeah , interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface concept . this is your time to shine . user interface: we decided on the component . i , i i 'm sorry , i 've lost my um powerpoint thing , so i ca n't remember what it 's ca it 's the component industrial designer: your screen ? marketing: think it was called command interface . industrial designer: was it project manager: oh , yeah . yeah . marketing: command interface , . user interface: the command inter project manager: command interface . industrial designer: ouch . user interface: the command line interface yeah . project manager: did you say command line ? okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: line interface . marketing: project manager: alright , and supplements . what 's that all about ? user interface: um , i think that is marketing: project manager: user interface: well we have n't really made any decisions about what we 're gon na do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the in consistent use . like what what are ideas to combat these problems ? project manager: um user interface: you know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: we have n't really decided what to do about that . project manager: um , what are our choices here ? user interface: well it 's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . what kind of functions wi shall we have ? project manager: you mean like we 'll have the numbers of the channels , and we 'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ? industrial designer: the power . volume . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um user interface: so pretty just just the basic button functions . project manager: yeah . like i do n't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have industrial designer: may yeah . project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: tone , contrast , and things . that 's a bit marketing: that was on , um one of my presentations . about how often it was used . project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah , it was minima marketing: do you remember that ? industrial designer: well , it was n't the l project manager: yeah , it was hardly ever used really . user interface: yeah . marketing: i w should i bring it up ? project manager: yeah . and most televisions will come with a remote . industrial designer: yeah . that would be good . yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television , user interface: yeah , each television . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so project manager: 'kay , well we know we want numbers . marketing: the ch t screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . so tw twice every once every two hours . um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . that 's brightness , colour , tone , all that . industrial designer: mm . i think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself , user interface: you do n't change that often , yeah . industrial designer: does n't it ? i 'm sure it has its own buttons , so you do n't necessarily need to have it on remote . project manager: yeah , it does . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , and different televisions . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . project manager: like we , i do n't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: changes like that . industrial designer: so we 're just going for power , channels , volume , project manager: volume . marketing: the other one was audio settings . mono , stereo , pitch . i mean i sometimes use that . some tvs will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um user interface: yeah . marketing: and that , they say that 's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . like almost once an hour . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , relevance of two . project manager: oh . we have five minutes to finish our meeting . user interface: project manager: crap . okay , um , let 's do this fast . um industrial designer: marketing: well that did n't some up on mine . project manager: should we have audio ? it only comes up on mine usually . user interface: it w it would seem silly if we 'd having anything else , just have an audio button though . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah , user interface: do you know ? project manager: i do n't , i it 's , it 's a problem with the international uh appeal , i think . um , if we have audio because we do n't know how other televisions work . but we know that everyone has this and it 's the same . user interface: but we industrial designer: i 've marketing: yeah i guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , mm it is a good sales ploy to say , are n't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: this one has channel , volume and your channe and your power . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . we can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic . user interface: that could be a sales pitch . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: simple and project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah uh i marketing: okay . project manager: alright . industrial designer: brilliant . user interface: yeah . project manager: good . and , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . we 'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . um , you 'll be working , poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . wait a minute . is that right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . and you 'll be evaluating the product . um , poppy and tara will have to work together , using modelling clay . user interface: project manager: and , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright . so , anyone else have something to say ? industrial designer: um , i just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: are we seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , i thi i think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that 's what the surveys brought out , i think that we should probably go along with that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , so i suppose that 'll come out in our dev design development . but you 're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ? marketing: now do you guys need want an idea of how many uh are you gon na come up with casing ideas ? industrial designer: y yeah . marketing: like f five different user interface: yeah . project manager: five . . user interface: what i what i was thinking what do yous think of this ? um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: like grapes . like that 's kind of fruity or something . marketing: yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it 's true . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 's just industrial designer: we can have a look at those ideas , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess what you i ideally you 'd kind of think of age markets as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . something that your granny would want on her remote control . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , and international tastes as well , so project manager: yeah . industrial designer: tricky . a lot of things to consider . hm . user interface: marketing: not easy . project manager: yeah . lots of user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . alright . industrial designer: okay . project manager: 'kay we 'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then . user interface: project manager: alright . and , um , we 'll reconvene in thirty minutes . marketing: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: bye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: marketing: project manager: i 'll see you later . oh , what did i just do . okay .

this was the third meeting of conceptual design , including three presentations and a conclusive discussion to make some specific decisions . first , industrial designer introduced and led to a discussion about different options for the components of the circuit board , the energy sources , and the materials of casing and button . next , user interface gave the second presentation about interface concept and two types of user interfaces : the graphical user interface and the command interface , and strongly recommended the latter . the last presentation by marketing reported the trend-watching for remote control and the relevant discussion centralized the trendy theme of vegetable and fruit . given all of the information , the group eventually decided on some special designs , such as the kinetic energy , the regular chip , the plastic rubber coat , the interchangeable plate , the command line interface , and the basic buttons .

summarize the discussion about the options for energy sources . </s> project manager: is everyone ready to start ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . great . well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . i 'll just get the powerpoint presentation up and running . okay . um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we 'll have your three presentations on what you 've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . and , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we 're gon na make it , what uh materials we 're gon na use , and that sort of thing . industrial designer: project manager: the meeting will be forty minutes long . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and um we will once again have poppy as our first presenter . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , and i will switch up powerpoint . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: okay . industrial designer: should be just loading . okay . oh , although i ca n't see it on my screen . that says go here . okay . i 've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what 's available to us f to actually make the remote control . um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source . marketing: industrial designer: which is not necessarily a battery , as we 're about to see . um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we 'll be getting them from , what they 'll be made of . um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . which is where all the main information is uh contained . um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . um , and all their positioning in the circuit . project manager: um are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ? industrial designer: uh , these , they 're all different options , they 're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: we can go into that later . um , all the other things are individual components that we 'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . and the l_e_d_ of course , that 's a light emitting diode . so , we could , so we 've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . we could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . and they 're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . there 's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . a bit out of date . kinetic energy is something that 's been recently developed . project manager: um what is a hand-powered dynamo ? industrial designer: um , where you manually charge up the power . project manager: just every , every once in a while ? industrial designer: like you wind up something . project manager: just every once in a while or constantly ? industrial designer: sorry ? yeah . every once in a while i think project manager: alright . it 'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it i think . industrial designer: . but it 's yeah . it would be like going a step back in time . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology . project manager: no . marketing: industrial designer: whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that 's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . i mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . um , or there 's solar power , which we 've been considering inside a building , which is where it 's gon na be used , might not be quite so useful . project manager: right . industrial designer: but , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . that 's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . like how it 's comfortable and s sits in the hand . we do n't want something that 's huge and you ca n't pick up . or too small . or too slidy . i know i 've had a remote control before which you could n't tell which was the front and the back , user interface: industrial designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that i 'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: because you ca n't really see which way round it is . project manager: right . industrial designer: um , we also can choose what materials um , the we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-r_s_i_ . it 's like the same sort of rubber that 's used in stress balls and things like that , so it 's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: wood . project manager: industrial designer: um , again , stepping back in time again there . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think that 's quite up to date with what we 're looking for here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , titanium is not gon na be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . but , would 've been maybe for future projects . um right our choice for buttons as well . we 've developed some we 've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . i think that was brought up for , um , they 're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you do n't have to use individual buttons . you can just slide up and down . i 'm sure we 're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: um one thing with the scroll buttons though . it , it industrial designer: project manager: we would have to have an lcd um industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . project manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult . industrial designer: and that would lead to an advanced yeah . if we have yeah . we 're going on to that later with the advanc with the lcd that means we 'd need a really advanced chip . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it 's unlikely that that 's gon na be in our budget . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um , also we 've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we 're most familiar with . it 's the most straightforward . but you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . . got decisions to make there . and this is what i was just saying before . linked in the different depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . um simple would go with the pushbutton . um , regular you could link with the scroll button . and the advanced we 'd have to go with a lcd s display . project manager: right . industrial designer: my personal preferences ? i think we could go for the kinetic energy source . i do n't , i think that 's quite um an advanced kind of technology . it 's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . and also energy saving 'cause you 're producing the energy , you do n't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . you just give it a shake . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: sounds brilliant to me . project manager: uh . industrial designer: rubber casing i thing would probably the best , if we 're going for the anti-r_s_i_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . like it could be pretty much any colour we want . um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . and probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple , marketing: industrial designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no lcd , 'cause we probably ca n't afford that one . project manager: yeah . um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these chips and diodes and delicate technology as industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: like as the exterior . this is the one thing that 's protecting its innards . industrial designer: i think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . and the rubber would just be the , what 's in contact with the human . project manager: yeah . another thing is it might be more difficult if it 's a rubber exterior talking about putting on interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , is it industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i do n't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . it would work that way . industrial designer: maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case . user interface: w industrial designer: so , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable . user interface: like plastic with rubber , kind of on top industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like i ca n't think of what . user interface: well , there 's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or like an user interface: b like a nokia it is . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you can get sort of outer casing for ipods and something , that 's just it 's protective as well . user interface: it 's yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: like the skin ? industrial designer: it , it stops it , i mean , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it would n't damage itself so easily . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: alright . so maybe the industrial designer: i think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber . industrial designer: and then yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the buttons obviously are rubber . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: that sounds good . i , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ? industrial designer: as far as i know . it should be . project manager: okay , marketing: project manager: we 'll just say yeah . user interface: project manager: yes , just why not . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: alright . i like the kinetic energy source idea . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , i do n't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot . industrial designer: i thought that was project manager: but i think that it 's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um user interface: yeah , tha marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: energy source . it could make an we could have any kind of style . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it would n't be as heavy or bulky , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . just for environmental reasons . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: i guess it 's a bit scary 'cause it has n't been done before . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it seems we 'd have to do more research on it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or i dunno if you could have a battery pack . industrial designer: like as a backup for something . user interface: backup . yeah . marketing: yeah so there 's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries i believe . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so , if it was running off of one battery as a user interface: that would be good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . some alternative just in case something went wrong . marketing: right . user interface: maybe we could you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power . industrial designer: that 's true . i just thought of that . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: so maybe that could be incorporated as industrial designer: may maybe that could be the backup . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: instead of a battery . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like solar backup . marketing: although it needs some light , does n't it ? industrial designer: yeah . i suppose project manager: yeah , you can watch a tv in the dark then . user interface: do , do those calculators industrial designer: s but some marketing: so , if we 're doing user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . if we 're industrial designer: but thing is , it 's not you do n't need the solar all the time . user interface: i do n't know how it works . industrial designer: it can be stored . it can be like you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like a few hours a day . . project manager: i think that might be a little impractical though . marketing: yeah . i think sometimes it 's just shoved under , under a cushion , project manager: yeah . marketing: and yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . it could easily user interface: yeah . project manager: like people do n't wan na have to worry about that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , i forgot to charge my remote today . user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like if the kinetic thing , i think what 's best about that is that it 's instant energy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it works . project manager: or just like pick it up when you 're gon na use it . industrial designer: yeah . instead of you do n't have to like make sure it 's in the right place to charge and . user interface: yeah , i suppose . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . cool . industrial designer: k okay . project manager: 's that the end of your presentation . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: there we go . user interface: thanks . oh . it 's not on my screen . industrial designer: it was n't on mine either . user interface: why ? industrial designer: i do n't know why . i think , i just , i just used the mouse on there . user interface: you do n't know why ? oh okay . is it that one ? project manager: yeah . that 's um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um , i 'm just gon na go through the interface concept with yous now . uh , first of all i 'll explain what a user interface is . it 's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or by the human user . and it 's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . um , there are two types of user interfaces . there 's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . so that 's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about . project manager: oh . okay . yeah . user interface: yeah . i 'm not really sure about the pictures that maybe that 's on an lcd screen . industrial designer: mm . user interface: or maybe it 's the the buttons or pictures or something . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: do you think it 's project manager: yeah , 'cause industrial designer: so i suppose sometime project manager: i 'm sorry ? industrial designer: after you . user interface: project manager: um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . you 're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm . user interface: so you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics . industrial designer: i s i suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have like the power would be s some kind of symbol . user interface: like an lcd screen . industrial designer: and if you wanted to go onto teletext or , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i know we 're not having that , but i mean a similar thing , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you , they have there 's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which i suppose it 's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably wo n't have to focus so much on that . project manager: yeah , we 'll be doing industrial designer: it 'll be more the on the numbers and the volume . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . it 'd be more a command interface , and then industrial designer: i suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so it 's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? industrial designer: i marketing: the infrared is like , that 's considered a project manager: hmm ? user interface: no i think it 's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that 's on the buttons of the remote control , and per marketing: okay . so when it says pointing device that does n't include industrial designer: for inp user interface: well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . i think they 're talking about lcd type things . industrial designer: mm . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: but um i think we 're gon na go with the command interface anyway , project manager: yeah . user interface: to make it more simplistic . but the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: as in just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . project manager: what do you mean ? user interface: like i ca n't think of an example , but sort of like little pictures rather than project manager: oh yeah , like how the buttons user interface: like a little sound . instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something . project manager: yeah , as a button though . user interface: yeah , something y marketing: mm . project manager: so , it 's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ? user interface: yeah m perha yeah . yeah . maybe . project manager: okay . yeah . i like that idea . user interface: um , the co uh we 've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . as it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we 'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . you know , make it more trendy and original . we 'll have more money if we keep it simple . project manager: yeah . i 'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . a bit more too , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . seeing as it 's quite a new technology . um we , we also have to keep in mind when we 're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms are n't always helpful . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . that 's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . user interface: yeah . and that all interfaces are different . so , um , that does n't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that 's easy to understand . and maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: does anyone have any questions ? project manager: do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look . user interface: mm . marketing: i think if we go with the um design plate thing , we 'll have to . just because of colour clashing , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if we wanted to , project manager: yeah . marketing: so and , and we might , i mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons . user interface: but um project manager: but what about the lighting up effect ? marketing: you mean different colours for the lighting or project manager: um , well , um , i thought we had um decided that we would if you touched one of the buttons they 'd all light up . and so if they were black , it would n't be possible for them to light up . marketing: mm-hmm . oh i see what you 're saying . project manager: if they were white they would glow , probably . marketing: well y project manager: if they were made out of rubber . marketing: oh so you 're picturing the light is coming from the back . i kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards . industrial designer: oh . project manager: oh . marketing: but , but i guess , you mean from the back . project manager: where would the light come from ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: i 'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something . project manager: yeah , marketing: right . project manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we have that taken care of . industrial designer: it should be able to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: in the phone that i was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber . industrial designer: li yeah . user interface: so you can change the buttons when you 're changing the faces . do you know what i mean ? marketing: oh . project manager: oh . user interface: 'cause it 's just the wee control , marketing: yeah . they , they insert over . user interface: yeah , thing that 's behind it . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . user interface: so i mean , we do n't have to decide on one colour . each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: well , if they 're raised up buttons . so that you can feel them . user interface: yeah . project manager: we were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible . marketing: t project manager: um , it might be more difficult to do . if they 're , if they 're sticking up . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it 's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it 's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think it would be possible . i do n't think it would make that much difference . i mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'cause if it 's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . you can like take off the hard cover and then there 's the like say the buttons . and then you get to the circuit . i do n't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . i 'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: i 'm sure that 'd be fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . if it 's do-able we can do . user interface: project manager: yeah , sounds good to me . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's everything , then ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , thank you . marketing: okay is that my turn then ? project manager: that means you 're up . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . i have a shorter report for you today . um , it took a while to get this , uh uh . industrial designer: you 're not plugged in yet . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: that 's a very good point . project manager: user interface: marketing: okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . sorry . there we go . um so , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . i also spoke with fashion experts in milan , new york and paris . and i looked at the design reports from previous years , here at real remote . um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . um , so i 'll list the three most important aspects that i 've come across . um , and they , they 're each more important than the one that comes after it . uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . um , this should be our priority , as we 've been saying . the second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . so , i think we 've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the face-plates . um , so it looks like we 'll be able to keep on track with that . and the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . so , pretty basic there . and the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in paris and milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . again , we 've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . um so , my personal preferences here , um of course , as we , we 've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and i 'd like to stick to that . the fruits and vegetable themes , i do n't know if that 's going to work for us . it sounds something that you 'd use on kitchenware . industrial designer: mm . marketing: i do n't know if we wan na do it on remotes . user interface: marketing: it could be one of the options . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we 're gon na stick to that . and then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that i find rather jarring . everything else we can really , we can really industrial designer: it is strange . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . but fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control . marketing: it 's , it 's a little but it , it 's everywhere . industrial designer: well user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so maybe we i 've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: but i i think , i think if we stick to tv based , you know , maybe tv shows , or project manager: but they still need to um fit into people 's decor though . user interface: yeah . marketing: or colour schemes . industrial designer: we i think we possibly could take a more abstract design . marketing: right . industrial designer: like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . and then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . i mean we do n't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or a strawberry seed or a leaf . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: the the essence of strawberry . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that 's fits in more with what we 're doing . instead of fruits and vegetables , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: just if you look at it straightforward , it 's a bit yeah . it does n't s quite fit in with the trendy well , obviously it does , if that 's the current theme . project manager: yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but may maybe we could go more directly , i do n't know . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but initially , i dunno . i think if we just sort of tone it down a bit . project manager: tone it down . yeah , industrial designer: yeah and like not , not marketing: i guess , yeah . project manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or banana-shaped . marketing: one thing i was thinking though is project manager: marketing: i dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe there could be animal-based , you know . because a lot of people have a house cat . or , or a dog . industrial designer: mm . marketing: um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . but it 's something to keep in mind . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and , did you have any questions ? pretty straightforward ? project manager: yeah um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . so i 'll need to um hook up the powerpoint again . marketing: there you go . have you guys been saving your powerpoint presentations to the industrial designer: i did n't for the first one . but i have now . marketing: okay . project manager: but it 's still around right ? industrial designer: yeah . uh , hopefully project manager: okay . user interface: where do you have to save it to ? industrial designer: . project documents i think . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . i 'm just trying to make this pop up now . alright . here we go . okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . so energy , we industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh . oh no i ca n't write it in when it 's in this setting . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: does anyone know how to take it out of um , user interface: just escape i think . marketing: the powerpoint ? project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . um , so back to decisions . energy , we 've decided on kinetic , right ? industrial designer: kinetic yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so that 's good . industrial designer: are we going to have a backup ? project manager: hmm . industrial designer: or do we just project manager: but would a backup really be necessary ? i mean will people just use the battery if there 's no , if there 's , industrial designer: i think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy , project manager: if there is backup . industrial designer: and be bold and innovative , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think project manager: there 's like no reason why it would n't work , right ? industrial designer: yeah . i think no . i , i think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential . marketing: so project manager: yeah . it could even be one of our selling points . industrial designer: go for it . it could be user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: fully kinetic energy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: environmentally conscious or something . industrial designer: is everyone happy with that ? marketing: so if it 's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: hope so . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , the next um decision is chip on print . i do n't exactly know what that means . industrial designer: um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . and that linked in with what buttons we would gon na have , so project manager: right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ? industrial designer: yeah , it was user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that was without the lcd . so that means we 're not doing the advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons . project manager: i think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ? industrial designer: uh , so that 's the simple . user interface: yeah . i don project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ? industrial designer: yeah possibly . project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: so , it 's probably gon na be the regular chip that we 're going to need . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's a medium . project manager: that 's called medium , or regular ? industrial designer: so regular chip . regular sorry . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: regular chip . marketing: oh , is regular not simple ? industrial designer: lighting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah if we user interface: it 's for the lighting , yeah . industrial designer: because of the lighting that we 've decided to put in as well . marketing: right right right . project manager: okay , and cases . um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it 's made of , or what ? industrial designer: so th i think this is just like gon na be the a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . well , i guess plastic and coated in rubber . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: yeah industrial designer: yeah . project manager: plastic with rubber industrial designer: plastic rubber coat . user interface: plastic coat . project manager: coating and interchangeable um industrial designer: interchangeable , yeah . still going for that . project manager: yeah , interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface concept . this is your time to shine . user interface: we decided on the component . i , i i 'm sorry , i 've lost my um powerpoint thing , so i ca n't remember what it 's ca it 's the component industrial designer: your screen ? marketing: think it was called command interface . industrial designer: was it project manager: oh , yeah . yeah . marketing: command interface , . user interface: the command inter project manager: command interface . industrial designer: ouch . user interface: the command line interface yeah . project manager: did you say command line ? okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: line interface . marketing: project manager: alright , and supplements . what 's that all about ? user interface: um , i think that is marketing: project manager: user interface: well we have n't really made any decisions about what we 're gon na do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the in consistent use . like what what are ideas to combat these problems ? project manager: um user interface: you know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: we have n't really decided what to do about that . project manager: um , what are our choices here ? user interface: well it 's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . what kind of functions wi shall we have ? project manager: you mean like we 'll have the numbers of the channels , and we 'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ? industrial designer: the power . volume . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um user interface: so pretty just just the basic button functions . project manager: yeah . like i do n't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have industrial designer: may yeah . project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: tone , contrast , and things . that 's a bit marketing: that was on , um one of my presentations . about how often it was used . project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah , it was minima marketing: do you remember that ? industrial designer: well , it was n't the l project manager: yeah , it was hardly ever used really . user interface: yeah . marketing: i w should i bring it up ? project manager: yeah . and most televisions will come with a remote . industrial designer: yeah . that would be good . yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television , user interface: yeah , each television . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so project manager: 'kay , well we know we want numbers . marketing: the ch t screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . so tw twice every once every two hours . um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . that 's brightness , colour , tone , all that . industrial designer: mm . i think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself , user interface: you do n't change that often , yeah . industrial designer: does n't it ? i 'm sure it has its own buttons , so you do n't necessarily need to have it on remote . project manager: yeah , it does . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , and different televisions . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . project manager: like we , i do n't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: changes like that . industrial designer: so we 're just going for power , channels , volume , project manager: volume . marketing: the other one was audio settings . mono , stereo , pitch . i mean i sometimes use that . some tvs will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um user interface: yeah . marketing: and that , they say that 's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . like almost once an hour . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , relevance of two . project manager: oh . we have five minutes to finish our meeting . user interface: project manager: crap . okay , um , let 's do this fast . um industrial designer: marketing: well that did n't some up on mine . project manager: should we have audio ? it only comes up on mine usually . user interface: it w it would seem silly if we 'd having anything else , just have an audio button though . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah , user interface: do you know ? project manager: i do n't , i it 's , it 's a problem with the international uh appeal , i think . um , if we have audio because we do n't know how other televisions work . but we know that everyone has this and it 's the same . user interface: but we industrial designer: i 've marketing: yeah i guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , mm it is a good sales ploy to say , are n't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: this one has channel , volume and your channe and your power . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . we can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic . user interface: that could be a sales pitch . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: simple and project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah uh i marketing: okay . project manager: alright . industrial designer: brilliant . user interface: yeah . project manager: good . and , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . we 'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . um , you 'll be working , poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . wait a minute . is that right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . and you 'll be evaluating the product . um , poppy and tara will have to work together , using modelling clay . user interface: project manager: and , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright . so , anyone else have something to say ? industrial designer: um , i just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: are we seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , i thi i think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that 's what the surveys brought out , i think that we should probably go along with that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , so i suppose that 'll come out in our dev design development . but you 're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ? marketing: now do you guys need want an idea of how many uh are you gon na come up with casing ideas ? industrial designer: y yeah . marketing: like f five different user interface: yeah . project manager: five . . user interface: what i what i was thinking what do yous think of this ? um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: like grapes . like that 's kind of fruity or something . marketing: yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it 's true . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 's just industrial designer: we can have a look at those ideas , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess what you i ideally you 'd kind of think of age markets as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . something that your granny would want on her remote control . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , and international tastes as well , so project manager: yeah . industrial designer: tricky . a lot of things to consider . hm . user interface: marketing: not easy . project manager: yeah . lots of user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . alright . industrial designer: okay . project manager: 'kay we 'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then . user interface: project manager: alright . and , um , we 'll reconvene in thirty minutes . marketing: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: bye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: marketing: project manager: i 'll see you later . oh , what did i just do . okay .

first , industrial designer introduced three optional sources of energy and recommended kinetic energy as they were light , novelty , and environmental-friendly . project manager agreed , but marketing suggested it should be corporated with a battery backup in case something went wrong . after that , the group discussed solar energy , considering it impractical for remote control although it can be stored . with complete confidence by industrial designer and project manager , the group finally reconciled with the idea of full kinetic energy and treated it as one selling point .

why did industrial designer think rubber casing was the best when talking about the options for materials ? </s> project manager: is everyone ready to start ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . great . well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . i 'll just get the powerpoint presentation up and running . okay . um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we 'll have your three presentations on what you 've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . and , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we 're gon na make it , what uh materials we 're gon na use , and that sort of thing . industrial designer: project manager: the meeting will be forty minutes long . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and um we will once again have poppy as our first presenter . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , and i will switch up powerpoint . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: okay . industrial designer: should be just loading . okay . oh , although i ca n't see it on my screen . that says go here . okay . i 've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what 's available to us f to actually make the remote control . um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source . marketing: industrial designer: which is not necessarily a battery , as we 're about to see . um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we 'll be getting them from , what they 'll be made of . um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . which is where all the main information is uh contained . um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . um , and all their positioning in the circuit . project manager: um are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ? industrial designer: uh , these , they 're all different options , they 're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: we can go into that later . um , all the other things are individual components that we 'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . and the l_e_d_ of course , that 's a light emitting diode . so , we could , so we 've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . we could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . and they 're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . there 's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . a bit out of date . kinetic energy is something that 's been recently developed . project manager: um what is a hand-powered dynamo ? industrial designer: um , where you manually charge up the power . project manager: just every , every once in a while ? industrial designer: like you wind up something . project manager: just every once in a while or constantly ? industrial designer: sorry ? yeah . every once in a while i think project manager: alright . it 'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it i think . industrial designer: . but it 's yeah . it would be like going a step back in time . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology . project manager: no . marketing: industrial designer: whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that 's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . i mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . um , or there 's solar power , which we 've been considering inside a building , which is where it 's gon na be used , might not be quite so useful . project manager: right . industrial designer: but , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . that 's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . like how it 's comfortable and s sits in the hand . we do n't want something that 's huge and you ca n't pick up . or too small . or too slidy . i know i 've had a remote control before which you could n't tell which was the front and the back , user interface: industrial designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that i 'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: because you ca n't really see which way round it is . project manager: right . industrial designer: um , we also can choose what materials um , the we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-r_s_i_ . it 's like the same sort of rubber that 's used in stress balls and things like that , so it 's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: wood . project manager: industrial designer: um , again , stepping back in time again there . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think that 's quite up to date with what we 're looking for here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , titanium is not gon na be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . but , would 've been maybe for future projects . um right our choice for buttons as well . we 've developed some we 've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . i think that was brought up for , um , they 're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you do n't have to use individual buttons . you can just slide up and down . i 'm sure we 're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: um one thing with the scroll buttons though . it , it industrial designer: project manager: we would have to have an lcd um industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . project manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult . industrial designer: and that would lead to an advanced yeah . if we have yeah . we 're going on to that later with the advanc with the lcd that means we 'd need a really advanced chip . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it 's unlikely that that 's gon na be in our budget . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um , also we 've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we 're most familiar with . it 's the most straightforward . but you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . . got decisions to make there . and this is what i was just saying before . linked in the different depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . um simple would go with the pushbutton . um , regular you could link with the scroll button . and the advanced we 'd have to go with a lcd s display . project manager: right . industrial designer: my personal preferences ? i think we could go for the kinetic energy source . i do n't , i think that 's quite um an advanced kind of technology . it 's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . and also energy saving 'cause you 're producing the energy , you do n't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . you just give it a shake . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: sounds brilliant to me . project manager: uh . industrial designer: rubber casing i thing would probably the best , if we 're going for the anti-r_s_i_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . like it could be pretty much any colour we want . um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . and probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple , marketing: industrial designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no lcd , 'cause we probably ca n't afford that one . project manager: yeah . um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these chips and diodes and delicate technology as industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: like as the exterior . this is the one thing that 's protecting its innards . industrial designer: i think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . and the rubber would just be the , what 's in contact with the human . project manager: yeah . another thing is it might be more difficult if it 's a rubber exterior talking about putting on interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , is it industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i do n't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . it would work that way . industrial designer: maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case . user interface: w industrial designer: so , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable . user interface: like plastic with rubber , kind of on top industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like i ca n't think of what . user interface: well , there 's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or like an user interface: b like a nokia it is . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you can get sort of outer casing for ipods and something , that 's just it 's protective as well . user interface: it 's yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: like the skin ? industrial designer: it , it stops it , i mean , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it would n't damage itself so easily . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: alright . so maybe the industrial designer: i think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber . industrial designer: and then yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the buttons obviously are rubber . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: that sounds good . i , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ? industrial designer: as far as i know . it should be . project manager: okay , marketing: project manager: we 'll just say yeah . user interface: project manager: yes , just why not . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: alright . i like the kinetic energy source idea . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , i do n't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot . industrial designer: i thought that was project manager: but i think that it 's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um user interface: yeah , tha marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: energy source . it could make an we could have any kind of style . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it would n't be as heavy or bulky , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . just for environmental reasons . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: i guess it 's a bit scary 'cause it has n't been done before . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it seems we 'd have to do more research on it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or i dunno if you could have a battery pack . industrial designer: like as a backup for something . user interface: backup . yeah . marketing: yeah so there 's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries i believe . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so , if it was running off of one battery as a user interface: that would be good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . some alternative just in case something went wrong . marketing: right . user interface: maybe we could you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power . industrial designer: that 's true . i just thought of that . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: so maybe that could be incorporated as industrial designer: may maybe that could be the backup . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: instead of a battery . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like solar backup . marketing: although it needs some light , does n't it ? industrial designer: yeah . i suppose project manager: yeah , you can watch a tv in the dark then . user interface: do , do those calculators industrial designer: s but some marketing: so , if we 're doing user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . if we 're industrial designer: but thing is , it 's not you do n't need the solar all the time . user interface: i do n't know how it works . industrial designer: it can be stored . it can be like you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like a few hours a day . . project manager: i think that might be a little impractical though . marketing: yeah . i think sometimes it 's just shoved under , under a cushion , project manager: yeah . marketing: and yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . it could easily user interface: yeah . project manager: like people do n't wan na have to worry about that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , i forgot to charge my remote today . user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like if the kinetic thing , i think what 's best about that is that it 's instant energy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it works . project manager: or just like pick it up when you 're gon na use it . industrial designer: yeah . instead of you do n't have to like make sure it 's in the right place to charge and . user interface: yeah , i suppose . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . cool . industrial designer: k okay . project manager: 's that the end of your presentation . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: there we go . user interface: thanks . oh . it 's not on my screen . industrial designer: it was n't on mine either . user interface: why ? industrial designer: i do n't know why . i think , i just , i just used the mouse on there . user interface: you do n't know why ? oh okay . is it that one ? project manager: yeah . that 's um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um , i 'm just gon na go through the interface concept with yous now . uh , first of all i 'll explain what a user interface is . it 's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or by the human user . and it 's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . um , there are two types of user interfaces . there 's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . so that 's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about . project manager: oh . okay . yeah . user interface: yeah . i 'm not really sure about the pictures that maybe that 's on an lcd screen . industrial designer: mm . user interface: or maybe it 's the the buttons or pictures or something . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: do you think it 's project manager: yeah , 'cause industrial designer: so i suppose sometime project manager: i 'm sorry ? industrial designer: after you . user interface: project manager: um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . you 're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm . user interface: so you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics . industrial designer: i s i suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have like the power would be s some kind of symbol . user interface: like an lcd screen . industrial designer: and if you wanted to go onto teletext or , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i know we 're not having that , but i mean a similar thing , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you , they have there 's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which i suppose it 's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably wo n't have to focus so much on that . project manager: yeah , we 'll be doing industrial designer: it 'll be more the on the numbers and the volume . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . it 'd be more a command interface , and then industrial designer: i suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so it 's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? industrial designer: i marketing: the infrared is like , that 's considered a project manager: hmm ? user interface: no i think it 's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that 's on the buttons of the remote control , and per marketing: okay . so when it says pointing device that does n't include industrial designer: for inp user interface: well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . i think they 're talking about lcd type things . industrial designer: mm . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: but um i think we 're gon na go with the command interface anyway , project manager: yeah . user interface: to make it more simplistic . but the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: as in just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . project manager: what do you mean ? user interface: like i ca n't think of an example , but sort of like little pictures rather than project manager: oh yeah , like how the buttons user interface: like a little sound . instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something . project manager: yeah , as a button though . user interface: yeah , something y marketing: mm . project manager: so , it 's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ? user interface: yeah m perha yeah . yeah . maybe . project manager: okay . yeah . i like that idea . user interface: um , the co uh we 've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . as it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we 'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . you know , make it more trendy and original . we 'll have more money if we keep it simple . project manager: yeah . i 'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . a bit more too , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . seeing as it 's quite a new technology . um we , we also have to keep in mind when we 're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms are n't always helpful . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . that 's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . user interface: yeah . and that all interfaces are different . so , um , that does n't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that 's easy to understand . and maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: does anyone have any questions ? project manager: do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look . user interface: mm . marketing: i think if we go with the um design plate thing , we 'll have to . just because of colour clashing , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if we wanted to , project manager: yeah . marketing: so and , and we might , i mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons . user interface: but um project manager: but what about the lighting up effect ? marketing: you mean different colours for the lighting or project manager: um , well , um , i thought we had um decided that we would if you touched one of the buttons they 'd all light up . and so if they were black , it would n't be possible for them to light up . marketing: mm-hmm . oh i see what you 're saying . project manager: if they were white they would glow , probably . marketing: well y project manager: if they were made out of rubber . marketing: oh so you 're picturing the light is coming from the back . i kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards . industrial designer: oh . project manager: oh . marketing: but , but i guess , you mean from the back . project manager: where would the light come from ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: i 'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something . project manager: yeah , marketing: right . project manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we have that taken care of . industrial designer: it should be able to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: in the phone that i was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber . industrial designer: li yeah . user interface: so you can change the buttons when you 're changing the faces . do you know what i mean ? marketing: oh . project manager: oh . user interface: 'cause it 's just the wee control , marketing: yeah . they , they insert over . user interface: yeah , thing that 's behind it . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . user interface: so i mean , we do n't have to decide on one colour . each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: well , if they 're raised up buttons . so that you can feel them . user interface: yeah . project manager: we were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible . marketing: t project manager: um , it might be more difficult to do . if they 're , if they 're sticking up . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it 's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it 's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think it would be possible . i do n't think it would make that much difference . i mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'cause if it 's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . you can like take off the hard cover and then there 's the like say the buttons . and then you get to the circuit . i do n't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . i 'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: i 'm sure that 'd be fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . if it 's do-able we can do . user interface: project manager: yeah , sounds good to me . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's everything , then ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , thank you . marketing: okay is that my turn then ? project manager: that means you 're up . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . i have a shorter report for you today . um , it took a while to get this , uh uh . industrial designer: you 're not plugged in yet . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: that 's a very good point . project manager: user interface: marketing: okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . sorry . there we go . um so , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . i also spoke with fashion experts in milan , new york and paris . and i looked at the design reports from previous years , here at real remote . um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . um , so i 'll list the three most important aspects that i 've come across . um , and they , they 're each more important than the one that comes after it . uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . um , this should be our priority , as we 've been saying . the second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . so , i think we 've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the face-plates . um , so it looks like we 'll be able to keep on track with that . and the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . so , pretty basic there . and the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in paris and milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . again , we 've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . um so , my personal preferences here , um of course , as we , we 've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and i 'd like to stick to that . the fruits and vegetable themes , i do n't know if that 's going to work for us . it sounds something that you 'd use on kitchenware . industrial designer: mm . marketing: i do n't know if we wan na do it on remotes . user interface: marketing: it could be one of the options . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we 're gon na stick to that . and then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that i find rather jarring . everything else we can really , we can really industrial designer: it is strange . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . but fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control . marketing: it 's , it 's a little but it , it 's everywhere . industrial designer: well user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so maybe we i 've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: but i i think , i think if we stick to tv based , you know , maybe tv shows , or project manager: but they still need to um fit into people 's decor though . user interface: yeah . marketing: or colour schemes . industrial designer: we i think we possibly could take a more abstract design . marketing: right . industrial designer: like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . and then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . i mean we do n't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or a strawberry seed or a leaf . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: the the essence of strawberry . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that 's fits in more with what we 're doing . instead of fruits and vegetables , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: just if you look at it straightforward , it 's a bit yeah . it does n't s quite fit in with the trendy well , obviously it does , if that 's the current theme . project manager: yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but may maybe we could go more directly , i do n't know . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but initially , i dunno . i think if we just sort of tone it down a bit . project manager: tone it down . yeah , industrial designer: yeah and like not , not marketing: i guess , yeah . project manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or banana-shaped . marketing: one thing i was thinking though is project manager: marketing: i dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe there could be animal-based , you know . because a lot of people have a house cat . or , or a dog . industrial designer: mm . marketing: um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . but it 's something to keep in mind . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and , did you have any questions ? pretty straightforward ? project manager: yeah um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . so i 'll need to um hook up the powerpoint again . marketing: there you go . have you guys been saving your powerpoint presentations to the industrial designer: i did n't for the first one . but i have now . marketing: okay . project manager: but it 's still around right ? industrial designer: yeah . uh , hopefully project manager: okay . user interface: where do you have to save it to ? industrial designer: . project documents i think . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . i 'm just trying to make this pop up now . alright . here we go . okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . so energy , we industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh . oh no i ca n't write it in when it 's in this setting . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: does anyone know how to take it out of um , user interface: just escape i think . marketing: the powerpoint ? project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . um , so back to decisions . energy , we 've decided on kinetic , right ? industrial designer: kinetic yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so that 's good . industrial designer: are we going to have a backup ? project manager: hmm . industrial designer: or do we just project manager: but would a backup really be necessary ? i mean will people just use the battery if there 's no , if there 's , industrial designer: i think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy , project manager: if there is backup . industrial designer: and be bold and innovative , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think project manager: there 's like no reason why it would n't work , right ? industrial designer: yeah . i think no . i , i think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential . marketing: so project manager: yeah . it could even be one of our selling points . industrial designer: go for it . it could be user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: fully kinetic energy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: environmentally conscious or something . industrial designer: is everyone happy with that ? marketing: so if it 's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: hope so . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , the next um decision is chip on print . i do n't exactly know what that means . industrial designer: um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . and that linked in with what buttons we would gon na have , so project manager: right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ? industrial designer: yeah , it was user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that was without the lcd . so that means we 're not doing the advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons . project manager: i think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ? industrial designer: uh , so that 's the simple . user interface: yeah . i don project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ? industrial designer: yeah possibly . project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: so , it 's probably gon na be the regular chip that we 're going to need . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's a medium . project manager: that 's called medium , or regular ? industrial designer: so regular chip . regular sorry . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: regular chip . marketing: oh , is regular not simple ? industrial designer: lighting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah if we user interface: it 's for the lighting , yeah . industrial designer: because of the lighting that we 've decided to put in as well . marketing: right right right . project manager: okay , and cases . um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it 's made of , or what ? industrial designer: so th i think this is just like gon na be the a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . well , i guess plastic and coated in rubber . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: yeah industrial designer: yeah . project manager: plastic with rubber industrial designer: plastic rubber coat . user interface: plastic coat . project manager: coating and interchangeable um industrial designer: interchangeable , yeah . still going for that . project manager: yeah , interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface concept . this is your time to shine . user interface: we decided on the component . i , i i 'm sorry , i 've lost my um powerpoint thing , so i ca n't remember what it 's ca it 's the component industrial designer: your screen ? marketing: think it was called command interface . industrial designer: was it project manager: oh , yeah . yeah . marketing: command interface , . user interface: the command inter project manager: command interface . industrial designer: ouch . user interface: the command line interface yeah . project manager: did you say command line ? okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: line interface . marketing: project manager: alright , and supplements . what 's that all about ? user interface: um , i think that is marketing: project manager: user interface: well we have n't really made any decisions about what we 're gon na do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the in consistent use . like what what are ideas to combat these problems ? project manager: um user interface: you know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: we have n't really decided what to do about that . project manager: um , what are our choices here ? user interface: well it 's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . what kind of functions wi shall we have ? project manager: you mean like we 'll have the numbers of the channels , and we 'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ? industrial designer: the power . volume . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um user interface: so pretty just just the basic button functions . project manager: yeah . like i do n't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have industrial designer: may yeah . project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: tone , contrast , and things . that 's a bit marketing: that was on , um one of my presentations . about how often it was used . project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah , it was minima marketing: do you remember that ? industrial designer: well , it was n't the l project manager: yeah , it was hardly ever used really . user interface: yeah . marketing: i w should i bring it up ? project manager: yeah . and most televisions will come with a remote . industrial designer: yeah . that would be good . yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television , user interface: yeah , each television . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so project manager: 'kay , well we know we want numbers . marketing: the ch t screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . so tw twice every once every two hours . um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . that 's brightness , colour , tone , all that . industrial designer: mm . i think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself , user interface: you do n't change that often , yeah . industrial designer: does n't it ? i 'm sure it has its own buttons , so you do n't necessarily need to have it on remote . project manager: yeah , it does . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , and different televisions . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . project manager: like we , i do n't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: changes like that . industrial designer: so we 're just going for power , channels , volume , project manager: volume . marketing: the other one was audio settings . mono , stereo , pitch . i mean i sometimes use that . some tvs will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um user interface: yeah . marketing: and that , they say that 's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . like almost once an hour . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , relevance of two . project manager: oh . we have five minutes to finish our meeting . user interface: project manager: crap . okay , um , let 's do this fast . um industrial designer: marketing: well that did n't some up on mine . project manager: should we have audio ? it only comes up on mine usually . user interface: it w it would seem silly if we 'd having anything else , just have an audio button though . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah , user interface: do you know ? project manager: i do n't , i it 's , it 's a problem with the international uh appeal , i think . um , if we have audio because we do n't know how other televisions work . but we know that everyone has this and it 's the same . user interface: but we industrial designer: i 've marketing: yeah i guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , mm it is a good sales ploy to say , are n't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: this one has channel , volume and your channe and your power . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . we can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic . user interface: that could be a sales pitch . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: simple and project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah uh i marketing: okay . project manager: alright . industrial designer: brilliant . user interface: yeah . project manager: good . and , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . we 'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . um , you 'll be working , poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . wait a minute . is that right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . and you 'll be evaluating the product . um , poppy and tara will have to work together , using modelling clay . user interface: project manager: and , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright . so , anyone else have something to say ? industrial designer: um , i just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: are we seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , i thi i think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that 's what the surveys brought out , i think that we should probably go along with that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , so i suppose that 'll come out in our dev design development . but you 're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ? marketing: now do you guys need want an idea of how many uh are you gon na come up with casing ideas ? industrial designer: y yeah . marketing: like f five different user interface: yeah . project manager: five . . user interface: what i what i was thinking what do yous think of this ? um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: like grapes . like that 's kind of fruity or something . marketing: yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it 's true . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 's just industrial designer: we can have a look at those ideas , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess what you i ideally you 'd kind of think of age markets as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . something that your granny would want on her remote control . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , and international tastes as well , so project manager: yeah . industrial designer: tricky . a lot of things to consider . hm . user interface: marketing: not easy . project manager: yeah . lots of user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . alright . industrial designer: okay . project manager: 'kay we 'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then . user interface: project manager: alright . and , um , we 'll reconvene in thirty minutes . marketing: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: bye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: marketing: project manager: i 'll see you later . oh , what did i just do . okay .

industrial designer indicated rubber was softer than metal , cheaper than titanium that would exceed the budget , and more flexible to color alternatives . although rubber could n't work as the interior to protect innards , rubber coating would reduce the impact if the remote control was dropped .

what did user interface think about the command interface when talking about user interface types ? </s> project manager: is everyone ready to start ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . great . well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . i 'll just get the powerpoint presentation up and running . okay . um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we 'll have your three presentations on what you 've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . and , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we 're gon na make it , what uh materials we 're gon na use , and that sort of thing . industrial designer: project manager: the meeting will be forty minutes long . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and um we will once again have poppy as our first presenter . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , and i will switch up powerpoint . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: okay . industrial designer: should be just loading . okay . oh , although i ca n't see it on my screen . that says go here . okay . i 've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what 's available to us f to actually make the remote control . um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source . marketing: industrial designer: which is not necessarily a battery , as we 're about to see . um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we 'll be getting them from , what they 'll be made of . um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . which is where all the main information is uh contained . um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . um , and all their positioning in the circuit . project manager: um are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ? industrial designer: uh , these , they 're all different options , they 're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: we can go into that later . um , all the other things are individual components that we 'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . and the l_e_d_ of course , that 's a light emitting diode . so , we could , so we 've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . we could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . and they 're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . there 's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . a bit out of date . kinetic energy is something that 's been recently developed . project manager: um what is a hand-powered dynamo ? industrial designer: um , where you manually charge up the power . project manager: just every , every once in a while ? industrial designer: like you wind up something . project manager: just every once in a while or constantly ? industrial designer: sorry ? yeah . every once in a while i think project manager: alright . it 'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it i think . industrial designer: . but it 's yeah . it would be like going a step back in time . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology . project manager: no . marketing: industrial designer: whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that 's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . i mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . um , or there 's solar power , which we 've been considering inside a building , which is where it 's gon na be used , might not be quite so useful . project manager: right . industrial designer: but , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . that 's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . like how it 's comfortable and s sits in the hand . we do n't want something that 's huge and you ca n't pick up . or too small . or too slidy . i know i 've had a remote control before which you could n't tell which was the front and the back , user interface: industrial designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that i 'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: because you ca n't really see which way round it is . project manager: right . industrial designer: um , we also can choose what materials um , the we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-r_s_i_ . it 's like the same sort of rubber that 's used in stress balls and things like that , so it 's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: wood . project manager: industrial designer: um , again , stepping back in time again there . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think that 's quite up to date with what we 're looking for here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , titanium is not gon na be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . but , would 've been maybe for future projects . um right our choice for buttons as well . we 've developed some we 've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . i think that was brought up for , um , they 're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you do n't have to use individual buttons . you can just slide up and down . i 'm sure we 're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: um one thing with the scroll buttons though . it , it industrial designer: project manager: we would have to have an lcd um industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . project manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult . industrial designer: and that would lead to an advanced yeah . if we have yeah . we 're going on to that later with the advanc with the lcd that means we 'd need a really advanced chip . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it 's unlikely that that 's gon na be in our budget . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um , also we 've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we 're most familiar with . it 's the most straightforward . but you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . . got decisions to make there . and this is what i was just saying before . linked in the different depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . um simple would go with the pushbutton . um , regular you could link with the scroll button . and the advanced we 'd have to go with a lcd s display . project manager: right . industrial designer: my personal preferences ? i think we could go for the kinetic energy source . i do n't , i think that 's quite um an advanced kind of technology . it 's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . and also energy saving 'cause you 're producing the energy , you do n't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . you just give it a shake . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: sounds brilliant to me . project manager: uh . industrial designer: rubber casing i thing would probably the best , if we 're going for the anti-r_s_i_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . like it could be pretty much any colour we want . um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . and probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple , marketing: industrial designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no lcd , 'cause we probably ca n't afford that one . project manager: yeah . um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these chips and diodes and delicate technology as industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: like as the exterior . this is the one thing that 's protecting its innards . industrial designer: i think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . and the rubber would just be the , what 's in contact with the human . project manager: yeah . another thing is it might be more difficult if it 's a rubber exterior talking about putting on interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , is it industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i do n't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . it would work that way . industrial designer: maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case . user interface: w industrial designer: so , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable . user interface: like plastic with rubber , kind of on top industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like i ca n't think of what . user interface: well , there 's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or like an user interface: b like a nokia it is . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you can get sort of outer casing for ipods and something , that 's just it 's protective as well . user interface: it 's yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: like the skin ? industrial designer: it , it stops it , i mean , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it would n't damage itself so easily . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: alright . so maybe the industrial designer: i think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber . industrial designer: and then yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the buttons obviously are rubber . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: that sounds good . i , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ? industrial designer: as far as i know . it should be . project manager: okay , marketing: project manager: we 'll just say yeah . user interface: project manager: yes , just why not . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: alright . i like the kinetic energy source idea . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , i do n't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot . industrial designer: i thought that was project manager: but i think that it 's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um user interface: yeah , tha marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: energy source . it could make an we could have any kind of style . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it would n't be as heavy or bulky , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . just for environmental reasons . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: i guess it 's a bit scary 'cause it has n't been done before . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it seems we 'd have to do more research on it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or i dunno if you could have a battery pack . industrial designer: like as a backup for something . user interface: backup . yeah . marketing: yeah so there 's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries i believe . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so , if it was running off of one battery as a user interface: that would be good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . some alternative just in case something went wrong . marketing: right . user interface: maybe we could you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power . industrial designer: that 's true . i just thought of that . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: so maybe that could be incorporated as industrial designer: may maybe that could be the backup . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: instead of a battery . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like solar backup . marketing: although it needs some light , does n't it ? industrial designer: yeah . i suppose project manager: yeah , you can watch a tv in the dark then . user interface: do , do those calculators industrial designer: s but some marketing: so , if we 're doing user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . if we 're industrial designer: but thing is , it 's not you do n't need the solar all the time . user interface: i do n't know how it works . industrial designer: it can be stored . it can be like you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like a few hours a day . . project manager: i think that might be a little impractical though . marketing: yeah . i think sometimes it 's just shoved under , under a cushion , project manager: yeah . marketing: and yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . it could easily user interface: yeah . project manager: like people do n't wan na have to worry about that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , i forgot to charge my remote today . user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like if the kinetic thing , i think what 's best about that is that it 's instant energy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it works . project manager: or just like pick it up when you 're gon na use it . industrial designer: yeah . instead of you do n't have to like make sure it 's in the right place to charge and . user interface: yeah , i suppose . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . cool . industrial designer: k okay . project manager: 's that the end of your presentation . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: there we go . user interface: thanks . oh . it 's not on my screen . industrial designer: it was n't on mine either . user interface: why ? industrial designer: i do n't know why . i think , i just , i just used the mouse on there . user interface: you do n't know why ? oh okay . is it that one ? project manager: yeah . that 's um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um , i 'm just gon na go through the interface concept with yous now . uh , first of all i 'll explain what a user interface is . it 's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or by the human user . and it 's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . um , there are two types of user interfaces . there 's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . so that 's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about . project manager: oh . okay . yeah . user interface: yeah . i 'm not really sure about the pictures that maybe that 's on an lcd screen . industrial designer: mm . user interface: or maybe it 's the the buttons or pictures or something . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: do you think it 's project manager: yeah , 'cause industrial designer: so i suppose sometime project manager: i 'm sorry ? industrial designer: after you . user interface: project manager: um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . you 're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm . user interface: so you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics . industrial designer: i s i suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have like the power would be s some kind of symbol . user interface: like an lcd screen . industrial designer: and if you wanted to go onto teletext or , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i know we 're not having that , but i mean a similar thing , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you , they have there 's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which i suppose it 's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably wo n't have to focus so much on that . project manager: yeah , we 'll be doing industrial designer: it 'll be more the on the numbers and the volume . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . it 'd be more a command interface , and then industrial designer: i suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so it 's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? industrial designer: i marketing: the infrared is like , that 's considered a project manager: hmm ? user interface: no i think it 's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that 's on the buttons of the remote control , and per marketing: okay . so when it says pointing device that does n't include industrial designer: for inp user interface: well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . i think they 're talking about lcd type things . industrial designer: mm . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: but um i think we 're gon na go with the command interface anyway , project manager: yeah . user interface: to make it more simplistic . but the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: as in just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . project manager: what do you mean ? user interface: like i ca n't think of an example , but sort of like little pictures rather than project manager: oh yeah , like how the buttons user interface: like a little sound . instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something . project manager: yeah , as a button though . user interface: yeah , something y marketing: mm . project manager: so , it 's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ? user interface: yeah m perha yeah . yeah . maybe . project manager: okay . yeah . i like that idea . user interface: um , the co uh we 've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . as it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we 'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . you know , make it more trendy and original . we 'll have more money if we keep it simple . project manager: yeah . i 'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . a bit more too , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . seeing as it 's quite a new technology . um we , we also have to keep in mind when we 're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms are n't always helpful . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . that 's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . user interface: yeah . and that all interfaces are different . so , um , that does n't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that 's easy to understand . and maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: does anyone have any questions ? project manager: do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look . user interface: mm . marketing: i think if we go with the um design plate thing , we 'll have to . just because of colour clashing , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if we wanted to , project manager: yeah . marketing: so and , and we might , i mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons . user interface: but um project manager: but what about the lighting up effect ? marketing: you mean different colours for the lighting or project manager: um , well , um , i thought we had um decided that we would if you touched one of the buttons they 'd all light up . and so if they were black , it would n't be possible for them to light up . marketing: mm-hmm . oh i see what you 're saying . project manager: if they were white they would glow , probably . marketing: well y project manager: if they were made out of rubber . marketing: oh so you 're picturing the light is coming from the back . i kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards . industrial designer: oh . project manager: oh . marketing: but , but i guess , you mean from the back . project manager: where would the light come from ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: i 'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something . project manager: yeah , marketing: right . project manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we have that taken care of . industrial designer: it should be able to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: in the phone that i was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber . industrial designer: li yeah . user interface: so you can change the buttons when you 're changing the faces . do you know what i mean ? marketing: oh . project manager: oh . user interface: 'cause it 's just the wee control , marketing: yeah . they , they insert over . user interface: yeah , thing that 's behind it . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . user interface: so i mean , we do n't have to decide on one colour . each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: well , if they 're raised up buttons . so that you can feel them . user interface: yeah . project manager: we were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible . marketing: t project manager: um , it might be more difficult to do . if they 're , if they 're sticking up . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it 's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it 's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think it would be possible . i do n't think it would make that much difference . i mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'cause if it 's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . you can like take off the hard cover and then there 's the like say the buttons . and then you get to the circuit . i do n't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . i 'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: i 'm sure that 'd be fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . if it 's do-able we can do . user interface: project manager: yeah , sounds good to me . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's everything , then ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , thank you . marketing: okay is that my turn then ? project manager: that means you 're up . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . i have a shorter report for you today . um , it took a while to get this , uh uh . industrial designer: you 're not plugged in yet . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: that 's a very good point . project manager: user interface: marketing: okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . sorry . there we go . um so , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . i also spoke with fashion experts in milan , new york and paris . and i looked at the design reports from previous years , here at real remote . um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . um , so i 'll list the three most important aspects that i 've come across . um , and they , they 're each more important than the one that comes after it . uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . um , this should be our priority , as we 've been saying . the second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . so , i think we 've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the face-plates . um , so it looks like we 'll be able to keep on track with that . and the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . so , pretty basic there . and the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in paris and milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . again , we 've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . um so , my personal preferences here , um of course , as we , we 've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and i 'd like to stick to that . the fruits and vegetable themes , i do n't know if that 's going to work for us . it sounds something that you 'd use on kitchenware . industrial designer: mm . marketing: i do n't know if we wan na do it on remotes . user interface: marketing: it could be one of the options . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we 're gon na stick to that . and then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that i find rather jarring . everything else we can really , we can really industrial designer: it is strange . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . but fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control . marketing: it 's , it 's a little but it , it 's everywhere . industrial designer: well user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so maybe we i 've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: but i i think , i think if we stick to tv based , you know , maybe tv shows , or project manager: but they still need to um fit into people 's decor though . user interface: yeah . marketing: or colour schemes . industrial designer: we i think we possibly could take a more abstract design . marketing: right . industrial designer: like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . and then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . i mean we do n't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or a strawberry seed or a leaf . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: the the essence of strawberry . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that 's fits in more with what we 're doing . instead of fruits and vegetables , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: just if you look at it straightforward , it 's a bit yeah . it does n't s quite fit in with the trendy well , obviously it does , if that 's the current theme . project manager: yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but may maybe we could go more directly , i do n't know . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but initially , i dunno . i think if we just sort of tone it down a bit . project manager: tone it down . yeah , industrial designer: yeah and like not , not marketing: i guess , yeah . project manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or banana-shaped . marketing: one thing i was thinking though is project manager: marketing: i dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe there could be animal-based , you know . because a lot of people have a house cat . or , or a dog . industrial designer: mm . marketing: um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . but it 's something to keep in mind . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and , did you have any questions ? pretty straightforward ? project manager: yeah um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . so i 'll need to um hook up the powerpoint again . marketing: there you go . have you guys been saving your powerpoint presentations to the industrial designer: i did n't for the first one . but i have now . marketing: okay . project manager: but it 's still around right ? industrial designer: yeah . uh , hopefully project manager: okay . user interface: where do you have to save it to ? industrial designer: . project documents i think . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . i 'm just trying to make this pop up now . alright . here we go . okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . so energy , we industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh . oh no i ca n't write it in when it 's in this setting . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: does anyone know how to take it out of um , user interface: just escape i think . marketing: the powerpoint ? project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . um , so back to decisions . energy , we 've decided on kinetic , right ? industrial designer: kinetic yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so that 's good . industrial designer: are we going to have a backup ? project manager: hmm . industrial designer: or do we just project manager: but would a backup really be necessary ? i mean will people just use the battery if there 's no , if there 's , industrial designer: i think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy , project manager: if there is backup . industrial designer: and be bold and innovative , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think project manager: there 's like no reason why it would n't work , right ? industrial designer: yeah . i think no . i , i think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential . marketing: so project manager: yeah . it could even be one of our selling points . industrial designer: go for it . it could be user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: fully kinetic energy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: environmentally conscious or something . industrial designer: is everyone happy with that ? marketing: so if it 's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: hope so . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , the next um decision is chip on print . i do n't exactly know what that means . industrial designer: um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . and that linked in with what buttons we would gon na have , so project manager: right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ? industrial designer: yeah , it was user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that was without the lcd . so that means we 're not doing the advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons . project manager: i think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ? industrial designer: uh , so that 's the simple . user interface: yeah . i don project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ? industrial designer: yeah possibly . project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: so , it 's probably gon na be the regular chip that we 're going to need . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's a medium . project manager: that 's called medium , or regular ? industrial designer: so regular chip . regular sorry . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: regular chip . marketing: oh , is regular not simple ? industrial designer: lighting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah if we user interface: it 's for the lighting , yeah . industrial designer: because of the lighting that we 've decided to put in as well . marketing: right right right . project manager: okay , and cases . um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it 's made of , or what ? industrial designer: so th i think this is just like gon na be the a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . well , i guess plastic and coated in rubber . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: yeah industrial designer: yeah . project manager: plastic with rubber industrial designer: plastic rubber coat . user interface: plastic coat . project manager: coating and interchangeable um industrial designer: interchangeable , yeah . still going for that . project manager: yeah , interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface concept . this is your time to shine . user interface: we decided on the component . i , i i 'm sorry , i 've lost my um powerpoint thing , so i ca n't remember what it 's ca it 's the component industrial designer: your screen ? marketing: think it was called command interface . industrial designer: was it project manager: oh , yeah . yeah . marketing: command interface , . user interface: the command inter project manager: command interface . industrial designer: ouch . user interface: the command line interface yeah . project manager: did you say command line ? okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: line interface . marketing: project manager: alright , and supplements . what 's that all about ? user interface: um , i think that is marketing: project manager: user interface: well we have n't really made any decisions about what we 're gon na do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the in consistent use . like what what are ideas to combat these problems ? project manager: um user interface: you know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: we have n't really decided what to do about that . project manager: um , what are our choices here ? user interface: well it 's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . what kind of functions wi shall we have ? project manager: you mean like we 'll have the numbers of the channels , and we 'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ? industrial designer: the power . volume . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um user interface: so pretty just just the basic button functions . project manager: yeah . like i do n't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have industrial designer: may yeah . project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: tone , contrast , and things . that 's a bit marketing: that was on , um one of my presentations . about how often it was used . project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah , it was minima marketing: do you remember that ? industrial designer: well , it was n't the l project manager: yeah , it was hardly ever used really . user interface: yeah . marketing: i w should i bring it up ? project manager: yeah . and most televisions will come with a remote . industrial designer: yeah . that would be good . yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television , user interface: yeah , each television . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so project manager: 'kay , well we know we want numbers . marketing: the ch t screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . so tw twice every once every two hours . um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . that 's brightness , colour , tone , all that . industrial designer: mm . i think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself , user interface: you do n't change that often , yeah . industrial designer: does n't it ? i 'm sure it has its own buttons , so you do n't necessarily need to have it on remote . project manager: yeah , it does . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , and different televisions . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . project manager: like we , i do n't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: changes like that . industrial designer: so we 're just going for power , channels , volume , project manager: volume . marketing: the other one was audio settings . mono , stereo , pitch . i mean i sometimes use that . some tvs will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um user interface: yeah . marketing: and that , they say that 's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . like almost once an hour . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , relevance of two . project manager: oh . we have five minutes to finish our meeting . user interface: project manager: crap . okay , um , let 's do this fast . um industrial designer: marketing: well that did n't some up on mine . project manager: should we have audio ? it only comes up on mine usually . user interface: it w it would seem silly if we 'd having anything else , just have an audio button though . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah , user interface: do you know ? project manager: i do n't , i it 's , it 's a problem with the international uh appeal , i think . um , if we have audio because we do n't know how other televisions work . but we know that everyone has this and it 's the same . user interface: but we industrial designer: i 've marketing: yeah i guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , mm it is a good sales ploy to say , are n't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: this one has channel , volume and your channe and your power . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . we can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic . user interface: that could be a sales pitch . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: simple and project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah uh i marketing: okay . project manager: alright . industrial designer: brilliant . user interface: yeah . project manager: good . and , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . we 'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . um , you 'll be working , poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . wait a minute . is that right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . and you 'll be evaluating the product . um , poppy and tara will have to work together , using modelling clay . user interface: project manager: and , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright . so , anyone else have something to say ? industrial designer: um , i just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: are we seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , i thi i think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that 's what the surveys brought out , i think that we should probably go along with that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , so i suppose that 'll come out in our dev design development . but you 're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ? marketing: now do you guys need want an idea of how many uh are you gon na come up with casing ideas ? industrial designer: y yeah . marketing: like f five different user interface: yeah . project manager: five . . user interface: what i what i was thinking what do yous think of this ? um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: like grapes . like that 's kind of fruity or something . marketing: yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it 's true . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 's just industrial designer: we can have a look at those ideas , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess what you i ideally you 'd kind of think of age markets as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . something that your granny would want on her remote control . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , and international tastes as well , so project manager: yeah . industrial designer: tricky . a lot of things to consider . hm . user interface: marketing: not easy . project manager: yeah . lots of user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . alright . industrial designer: okay . project manager: 'kay we 'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then . user interface: project manager: alright . and , um , we 'll reconvene in thirty minutes . marketing: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: bye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: marketing: project manager: i 'll see you later . oh , what did i just do . okay .

user interface regarded the command interface as useful for remote control . it was less complicated and more user-friendly . in comparison , the interface consisting of many buttons , colors , and functions would n't improve the use of the product and was challenging to understand . as for expense , the command interface was also cheaper . therefore , more budget could be targeted to the design area .

summarize the discussion about the trend-watching for remote control . </s> project manager: is everyone ready to start ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . great . well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . i 'll just get the powerpoint presentation up and running . okay . um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we 'll have your three presentations on what you 've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . and , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we 're gon na make it , what uh materials we 're gon na use , and that sort of thing . industrial designer: project manager: the meeting will be forty minutes long . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and um we will once again have poppy as our first presenter . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , and i will switch up powerpoint . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: okay . industrial designer: should be just loading . okay . oh , although i ca n't see it on my screen . that says go here . okay . i 've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what 's available to us f to actually make the remote control . um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source . marketing: industrial designer: which is not necessarily a battery , as we 're about to see . um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we 'll be getting them from , what they 'll be made of . um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . which is where all the main information is uh contained . um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . um , and all their positioning in the circuit . project manager: um are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ? industrial designer: uh , these , they 're all different options , they 're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: we can go into that later . um , all the other things are individual components that we 'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . and the l_e_d_ of course , that 's a light emitting diode . so , we could , so we 've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . we could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . and they 're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . there 's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . a bit out of date . kinetic energy is something that 's been recently developed . project manager: um what is a hand-powered dynamo ? industrial designer: um , where you manually charge up the power . project manager: just every , every once in a while ? industrial designer: like you wind up something . project manager: just every once in a while or constantly ? industrial designer: sorry ? yeah . every once in a while i think project manager: alright . it 'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it i think . industrial designer: . but it 's yeah . it would be like going a step back in time . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology . project manager: no . marketing: industrial designer: whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that 's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . i mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . um , or there 's solar power , which we 've been considering inside a building , which is where it 's gon na be used , might not be quite so useful . project manager: right . industrial designer: but , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . that 's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . like how it 's comfortable and s sits in the hand . we do n't want something that 's huge and you ca n't pick up . or too small . or too slidy . i know i 've had a remote control before which you could n't tell which was the front and the back , user interface: industrial designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that i 'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: because you ca n't really see which way round it is . project manager: right . industrial designer: um , we also can choose what materials um , the we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-r_s_i_ . it 's like the same sort of rubber that 's used in stress balls and things like that , so it 's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: wood . project manager: industrial designer: um , again , stepping back in time again there . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think that 's quite up to date with what we 're looking for here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , titanium is not gon na be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . but , would 've been maybe for future projects . um right our choice for buttons as well . we 've developed some we 've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . i think that was brought up for , um , they 're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you do n't have to use individual buttons . you can just slide up and down . i 'm sure we 're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: um one thing with the scroll buttons though . it , it industrial designer: project manager: we would have to have an lcd um industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . project manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult . industrial designer: and that would lead to an advanced yeah . if we have yeah . we 're going on to that later with the advanc with the lcd that means we 'd need a really advanced chip . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it 's unlikely that that 's gon na be in our budget . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um , also we 've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we 're most familiar with . it 's the most straightforward . but you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . . got decisions to make there . and this is what i was just saying before . linked in the different depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . um simple would go with the pushbutton . um , regular you could link with the scroll button . and the advanced we 'd have to go with a lcd s display . project manager: right . industrial designer: my personal preferences ? i think we could go for the kinetic energy source . i do n't , i think that 's quite um an advanced kind of technology . it 's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . and also energy saving 'cause you 're producing the energy , you do n't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . you just give it a shake . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: sounds brilliant to me . project manager: uh . industrial designer: rubber casing i thing would probably the best , if we 're going for the anti-r_s_i_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . like it could be pretty much any colour we want . um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . and probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple , marketing: industrial designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no lcd , 'cause we probably ca n't afford that one . project manager: yeah . um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these chips and diodes and delicate technology as industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: like as the exterior . this is the one thing that 's protecting its innards . industrial designer: i think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . and the rubber would just be the , what 's in contact with the human . project manager: yeah . another thing is it might be more difficult if it 's a rubber exterior talking about putting on interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , is it industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i do n't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . it would work that way . industrial designer: maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case . user interface: w industrial designer: so , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable . user interface: like plastic with rubber , kind of on top industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like i ca n't think of what . user interface: well , there 's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or like an user interface: b like a nokia it is . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you can get sort of outer casing for ipods and something , that 's just it 's protective as well . user interface: it 's yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: like the skin ? industrial designer: it , it stops it , i mean , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it would n't damage itself so easily . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: alright . so maybe the industrial designer: i think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber . industrial designer: and then yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the buttons obviously are rubber . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: that sounds good . i , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ? industrial designer: as far as i know . it should be . project manager: okay , marketing: project manager: we 'll just say yeah . user interface: project manager: yes , just why not . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: alright . i like the kinetic energy source idea . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , i do n't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot . industrial designer: i thought that was project manager: but i think that it 's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um user interface: yeah , tha marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: energy source . it could make an we could have any kind of style . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it would n't be as heavy or bulky , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . just for environmental reasons . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: i guess it 's a bit scary 'cause it has n't been done before . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it seems we 'd have to do more research on it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or i dunno if you could have a battery pack . industrial designer: like as a backup for something . user interface: backup . yeah . marketing: yeah so there 's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries i believe . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so , if it was running off of one battery as a user interface: that would be good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . some alternative just in case something went wrong . marketing: right . user interface: maybe we could you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power . industrial designer: that 's true . i just thought of that . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: so maybe that could be incorporated as industrial designer: may maybe that could be the backup . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: instead of a battery . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like solar backup . marketing: although it needs some light , does n't it ? industrial designer: yeah . i suppose project manager: yeah , you can watch a tv in the dark then . user interface: do , do those calculators industrial designer: s but some marketing: so , if we 're doing user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . if we 're industrial designer: but thing is , it 's not you do n't need the solar all the time . user interface: i do n't know how it works . industrial designer: it can be stored . it can be like you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like a few hours a day . . project manager: i think that might be a little impractical though . marketing: yeah . i think sometimes it 's just shoved under , under a cushion , project manager: yeah . marketing: and yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . it could easily user interface: yeah . project manager: like people do n't wan na have to worry about that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , i forgot to charge my remote today . user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like if the kinetic thing , i think what 's best about that is that it 's instant energy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it works . project manager: or just like pick it up when you 're gon na use it . industrial designer: yeah . instead of you do n't have to like make sure it 's in the right place to charge and . user interface: yeah , i suppose . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . cool . industrial designer: k okay . project manager: 's that the end of your presentation . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: there we go . user interface: thanks . oh . it 's not on my screen . industrial designer: it was n't on mine either . user interface: why ? industrial designer: i do n't know why . i think , i just , i just used the mouse on there . user interface: you do n't know why ? oh okay . is it that one ? project manager: yeah . that 's um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um , i 'm just gon na go through the interface concept with yous now . uh , first of all i 'll explain what a user interface is . it 's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or by the human user . and it 's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . um , there are two types of user interfaces . there 's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . so that 's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about . project manager: oh . okay . yeah . user interface: yeah . i 'm not really sure about the pictures that maybe that 's on an lcd screen . industrial designer: mm . user interface: or maybe it 's the the buttons or pictures or something . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: do you think it 's project manager: yeah , 'cause industrial designer: so i suppose sometime project manager: i 'm sorry ? industrial designer: after you . user interface: project manager: um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . you 're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm . user interface: so you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics . industrial designer: i s i suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have like the power would be s some kind of symbol . user interface: like an lcd screen . industrial designer: and if you wanted to go onto teletext or , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i know we 're not having that , but i mean a similar thing , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you , they have there 's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which i suppose it 's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably wo n't have to focus so much on that . project manager: yeah , we 'll be doing industrial designer: it 'll be more the on the numbers and the volume . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . it 'd be more a command interface , and then industrial designer: i suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so it 's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? industrial designer: i marketing: the infrared is like , that 's considered a project manager: hmm ? user interface: no i think it 's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that 's on the buttons of the remote control , and per marketing: okay . so when it says pointing device that does n't include industrial designer: for inp user interface: well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . i think they 're talking about lcd type things . industrial designer: mm . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: but um i think we 're gon na go with the command interface anyway , project manager: yeah . user interface: to make it more simplistic . but the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: as in just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . project manager: what do you mean ? user interface: like i ca n't think of an example , but sort of like little pictures rather than project manager: oh yeah , like how the buttons user interface: like a little sound . instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something . project manager: yeah , as a button though . user interface: yeah , something y marketing: mm . project manager: so , it 's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ? user interface: yeah m perha yeah . yeah . maybe . project manager: okay . yeah . i like that idea . user interface: um , the co uh we 've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . as it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we 'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . you know , make it more trendy and original . we 'll have more money if we keep it simple . project manager: yeah . i 'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . a bit more too , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . seeing as it 's quite a new technology . um we , we also have to keep in mind when we 're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms are n't always helpful . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . that 's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . user interface: yeah . and that all interfaces are different . so , um , that does n't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that 's easy to understand . and maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: does anyone have any questions ? project manager: do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look . user interface: mm . marketing: i think if we go with the um design plate thing , we 'll have to . just because of colour clashing , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if we wanted to , project manager: yeah . marketing: so and , and we might , i mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons . user interface: but um project manager: but what about the lighting up effect ? marketing: you mean different colours for the lighting or project manager: um , well , um , i thought we had um decided that we would if you touched one of the buttons they 'd all light up . and so if they were black , it would n't be possible for them to light up . marketing: mm-hmm . oh i see what you 're saying . project manager: if they were white they would glow , probably . marketing: well y project manager: if they were made out of rubber . marketing: oh so you 're picturing the light is coming from the back . i kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards . industrial designer: oh . project manager: oh . marketing: but , but i guess , you mean from the back . project manager: where would the light come from ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: i 'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something . project manager: yeah , marketing: right . project manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we have that taken care of . industrial designer: it should be able to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: in the phone that i was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber . industrial designer: li yeah . user interface: so you can change the buttons when you 're changing the faces . do you know what i mean ? marketing: oh . project manager: oh . user interface: 'cause it 's just the wee control , marketing: yeah . they , they insert over . user interface: yeah , thing that 's behind it . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . user interface: so i mean , we do n't have to decide on one colour . each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: well , if they 're raised up buttons . so that you can feel them . user interface: yeah . project manager: we were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible . marketing: t project manager: um , it might be more difficult to do . if they 're , if they 're sticking up . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it 's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it 's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think it would be possible . i do n't think it would make that much difference . i mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'cause if it 's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . you can like take off the hard cover and then there 's the like say the buttons . and then you get to the circuit . i do n't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . i 'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: i 'm sure that 'd be fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . if it 's do-able we can do . user interface: project manager: yeah , sounds good to me . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's everything , then ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , thank you . marketing: okay is that my turn then ? project manager: that means you 're up . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . i have a shorter report for you today . um , it took a while to get this , uh uh . industrial designer: you 're not plugged in yet . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: that 's a very good point . project manager: user interface: marketing: okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . sorry . there we go . um so , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . i also spoke with fashion experts in milan , new york and paris . and i looked at the design reports from previous years , here at real remote . um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . um , so i 'll list the three most important aspects that i 've come across . um , and they , they 're each more important than the one that comes after it . uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . um , this should be our priority , as we 've been saying . the second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . so , i think we 've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the face-plates . um , so it looks like we 'll be able to keep on track with that . and the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . so , pretty basic there . and the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in paris and milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . again , we 've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . um so , my personal preferences here , um of course , as we , we 've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and i 'd like to stick to that . the fruits and vegetable themes , i do n't know if that 's going to work for us . it sounds something that you 'd use on kitchenware . industrial designer: mm . marketing: i do n't know if we wan na do it on remotes . user interface: marketing: it could be one of the options . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we 're gon na stick to that . and then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that i find rather jarring . everything else we can really , we can really industrial designer: it is strange . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . but fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control . marketing: it 's , it 's a little but it , it 's everywhere . industrial designer: well user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so maybe we i 've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: but i i think , i think if we stick to tv based , you know , maybe tv shows , or project manager: but they still need to um fit into people 's decor though . user interface: yeah . marketing: or colour schemes . industrial designer: we i think we possibly could take a more abstract design . marketing: right . industrial designer: like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . and then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . i mean we do n't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or a strawberry seed or a leaf . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: the the essence of strawberry . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that 's fits in more with what we 're doing . instead of fruits and vegetables , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: just if you look at it straightforward , it 's a bit yeah . it does n't s quite fit in with the trendy well , obviously it does , if that 's the current theme . project manager: yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but may maybe we could go more directly , i do n't know . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but initially , i dunno . i think if we just sort of tone it down a bit . project manager: tone it down . yeah , industrial designer: yeah and like not , not marketing: i guess , yeah . project manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or banana-shaped . marketing: one thing i was thinking though is project manager: marketing: i dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe there could be animal-based , you know . because a lot of people have a house cat . or , or a dog . industrial designer: mm . marketing: um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . but it 's something to keep in mind . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and , did you have any questions ? pretty straightforward ? project manager: yeah um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . so i 'll need to um hook up the powerpoint again . marketing: there you go . have you guys been saving your powerpoint presentations to the industrial designer: i did n't for the first one . but i have now . marketing: okay . project manager: but it 's still around right ? industrial designer: yeah . uh , hopefully project manager: okay . user interface: where do you have to save it to ? industrial designer: . project documents i think . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . i 'm just trying to make this pop up now . alright . here we go . okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . so energy , we industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh . oh no i ca n't write it in when it 's in this setting . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: does anyone know how to take it out of um , user interface: just escape i think . marketing: the powerpoint ? project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . um , so back to decisions . energy , we 've decided on kinetic , right ? industrial designer: kinetic yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so that 's good . industrial designer: are we going to have a backup ? project manager: hmm . industrial designer: or do we just project manager: but would a backup really be necessary ? i mean will people just use the battery if there 's no , if there 's , industrial designer: i think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy , project manager: if there is backup . industrial designer: and be bold and innovative , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think project manager: there 's like no reason why it would n't work , right ? industrial designer: yeah . i think no . i , i think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential . marketing: so project manager: yeah . it could even be one of our selling points . industrial designer: go for it . it could be user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: fully kinetic energy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: environmentally conscious or something . industrial designer: is everyone happy with that ? marketing: so if it 's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: hope so . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , the next um decision is chip on print . i do n't exactly know what that means . industrial designer: um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . and that linked in with what buttons we would gon na have , so project manager: right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ? industrial designer: yeah , it was user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that was without the lcd . so that means we 're not doing the advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons . project manager: i think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ? industrial designer: uh , so that 's the simple . user interface: yeah . i don project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ? industrial designer: yeah possibly . project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: so , it 's probably gon na be the regular chip that we 're going to need . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's a medium . project manager: that 's called medium , or regular ? industrial designer: so regular chip . regular sorry . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: regular chip . marketing: oh , is regular not simple ? industrial designer: lighting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah if we user interface: it 's for the lighting , yeah . industrial designer: because of the lighting that we 've decided to put in as well . marketing: right right right . project manager: okay , and cases . um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it 's made of , or what ? industrial designer: so th i think this is just like gon na be the a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . well , i guess plastic and coated in rubber . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: yeah industrial designer: yeah . project manager: plastic with rubber industrial designer: plastic rubber coat . user interface: plastic coat . project manager: coating and interchangeable um industrial designer: interchangeable , yeah . still going for that . project manager: yeah , interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface concept . this is your time to shine . user interface: we decided on the component . i , i i 'm sorry , i 've lost my um powerpoint thing , so i ca n't remember what it 's ca it 's the component industrial designer: your screen ? marketing: think it was called command interface . industrial designer: was it project manager: oh , yeah . yeah . marketing: command interface , . user interface: the command inter project manager: command interface . industrial designer: ouch . user interface: the command line interface yeah . project manager: did you say command line ? okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: line interface . marketing: project manager: alright , and supplements . what 's that all about ? user interface: um , i think that is marketing: project manager: user interface: well we have n't really made any decisions about what we 're gon na do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the in consistent use . like what what are ideas to combat these problems ? project manager: um user interface: you know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: we have n't really decided what to do about that . project manager: um , what are our choices here ? user interface: well it 's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . what kind of functions wi shall we have ? project manager: you mean like we 'll have the numbers of the channels , and we 'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ? industrial designer: the power . volume . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um user interface: so pretty just just the basic button functions . project manager: yeah . like i do n't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have industrial designer: may yeah . project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: tone , contrast , and things . that 's a bit marketing: that was on , um one of my presentations . about how often it was used . project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah , it was minima marketing: do you remember that ? industrial designer: well , it was n't the l project manager: yeah , it was hardly ever used really . user interface: yeah . marketing: i w should i bring it up ? project manager: yeah . and most televisions will come with a remote . industrial designer: yeah . that would be good . yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television , user interface: yeah , each television . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so project manager: 'kay , well we know we want numbers . marketing: the ch t screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . so tw twice every once every two hours . um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . that 's brightness , colour , tone , all that . industrial designer: mm . i think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself , user interface: you do n't change that often , yeah . industrial designer: does n't it ? i 'm sure it has its own buttons , so you do n't necessarily need to have it on remote . project manager: yeah , it does . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , and different televisions . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . project manager: like we , i do n't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: changes like that . industrial designer: so we 're just going for power , channels , volume , project manager: volume . marketing: the other one was audio settings . mono , stereo , pitch . i mean i sometimes use that . some tvs will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um user interface: yeah . marketing: and that , they say that 's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . like almost once an hour . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , relevance of two . project manager: oh . we have five minutes to finish our meeting . user interface: project manager: crap . okay , um , let 's do this fast . um industrial designer: marketing: well that did n't some up on mine . project manager: should we have audio ? it only comes up on mine usually . user interface: it w it would seem silly if we 'd having anything else , just have an audio button though . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah , user interface: do you know ? project manager: i do n't , i it 's , it 's a problem with the international uh appeal , i think . um , if we have audio because we do n't know how other televisions work . but we know that everyone has this and it 's the same . user interface: but we industrial designer: i 've marketing: yeah i guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , mm it is a good sales ploy to say , are n't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: this one has channel , volume and your channe and your power . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . we can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic . user interface: that could be a sales pitch . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: simple and project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah uh i marketing: okay . project manager: alright . industrial designer: brilliant . user interface: yeah . project manager: good . and , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . we 'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . um , you 'll be working , poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . wait a minute . is that right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . and you 'll be evaluating the product . um , poppy and tara will have to work together , using modelling clay . user interface: project manager: and , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright . so , anyone else have something to say ? industrial designer: um , i just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: are we seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , i thi i think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that 's what the surveys brought out , i think that we should probably go along with that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , so i suppose that 'll come out in our dev design development . but you 're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ? marketing: now do you guys need want an idea of how many uh are you gon na come up with casing ideas ? industrial designer: y yeah . marketing: like f five different user interface: yeah . project manager: five . . user interface: what i what i was thinking what do yous think of this ? um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: like grapes . like that 's kind of fruity or something . marketing: yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it 's true . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 's just industrial designer: we can have a look at those ideas , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess what you i ideally you 'd kind of think of age markets as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . something that your granny would want on her remote control . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , and international tastes as well , so project manager: yeah . industrial designer: tricky . a lot of things to consider . hm . user interface: marketing: not easy . project manager: yeah . lots of user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . alright . industrial designer: okay . project manager: 'kay we 'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then . user interface: project manager: alright . and , um , we 'll reconvene in thirty minutes . marketing: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: bye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: marketing: project manager: i 'll see you later . oh , what did i just do . okay .

in the presentation , marketing listed the three most important aspects of remote control . the priority was to have a fancy look-and-feel instead of the traditional one . secondly , the remote control should be technologically innovative . moreover , it should be easy to use . marketing also mentioned that fruit and vegetables would be the popular theme this year . in this way , the group turned to discuss some ideas about combining this theme with their design , like applying an abstract design and putting photos on the product .

what did industrial designer think about vegetable and fruit themes when talking about trend-watching ? </s> project manager: is everyone ready to start ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . great . well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . i 'll just get the powerpoint presentation up and running . okay . um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we 'll have your three presentations on what you 've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . and , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we 're gon na make it , what uh materials we 're gon na use , and that sort of thing . industrial designer: project manager: the meeting will be forty minutes long . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and um we will once again have poppy as our first presenter . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , and i will switch up powerpoint . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: okay . industrial designer: should be just loading . okay . oh , although i ca n't see it on my screen . that says go here . okay . i 've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what 's available to us f to actually make the remote control . um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source . marketing: industrial designer: which is not necessarily a battery , as we 're about to see . um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we 'll be getting them from , what they 'll be made of . um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . which is where all the main information is uh contained . um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . um , and all their positioning in the circuit . project manager: um are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ? industrial designer: uh , these , they 're all different options , they 're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: we can go into that later . um , all the other things are individual components that we 'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . and the l_e_d_ of course , that 's a light emitting diode . so , we could , so we 've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . we could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . and they 're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . there 's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . a bit out of date . kinetic energy is something that 's been recently developed . project manager: um what is a hand-powered dynamo ? industrial designer: um , where you manually charge up the power . project manager: just every , every once in a while ? industrial designer: like you wind up something . project manager: just every once in a while or constantly ? industrial designer: sorry ? yeah . every once in a while i think project manager: alright . it 'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it i think . industrial designer: . but it 's yeah . it would be like going a step back in time . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology . project manager: no . marketing: industrial designer: whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that 's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . i mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . um , or there 's solar power , which we 've been considering inside a building , which is where it 's gon na be used , might not be quite so useful . project manager: right . industrial designer: but , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . that 's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . like how it 's comfortable and s sits in the hand . we do n't want something that 's huge and you ca n't pick up . or too small . or too slidy . i know i 've had a remote control before which you could n't tell which was the front and the back , user interface: industrial designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that i 'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: because you ca n't really see which way round it is . project manager: right . industrial designer: um , we also can choose what materials um , the we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-r_s_i_ . it 's like the same sort of rubber that 's used in stress balls and things like that , so it 's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: wood . project manager: industrial designer: um , again , stepping back in time again there . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think that 's quite up to date with what we 're looking for here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , titanium is not gon na be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . but , would 've been maybe for future projects . um right our choice for buttons as well . we 've developed some we 've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . i think that was brought up for , um , they 're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you do n't have to use individual buttons . you can just slide up and down . i 'm sure we 're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: um one thing with the scroll buttons though . it , it industrial designer: project manager: we would have to have an lcd um industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . project manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult . industrial designer: and that would lead to an advanced yeah . if we have yeah . we 're going on to that later with the advanc with the lcd that means we 'd need a really advanced chip . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it 's unlikely that that 's gon na be in our budget . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um , also we 've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we 're most familiar with . it 's the most straightforward . but you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . . got decisions to make there . and this is what i was just saying before . linked in the different depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . um simple would go with the pushbutton . um , regular you could link with the scroll button . and the advanced we 'd have to go with a lcd s display . project manager: right . industrial designer: my personal preferences ? i think we could go for the kinetic energy source . i do n't , i think that 's quite um an advanced kind of technology . it 's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . and also energy saving 'cause you 're producing the energy , you do n't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . you just give it a shake . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: sounds brilliant to me . project manager: uh . industrial designer: rubber casing i thing would probably the best , if we 're going for the anti-r_s_i_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . like it could be pretty much any colour we want . um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . and probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple , marketing: industrial designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no lcd , 'cause we probably ca n't afford that one . project manager: yeah . um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these chips and diodes and delicate technology as industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: like as the exterior . this is the one thing that 's protecting its innards . industrial designer: i think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . and the rubber would just be the , what 's in contact with the human . project manager: yeah . another thing is it might be more difficult if it 's a rubber exterior talking about putting on interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , is it industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i do n't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . it would work that way . industrial designer: maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case . user interface: w industrial designer: so , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable . user interface: like plastic with rubber , kind of on top industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like i ca n't think of what . user interface: well , there 's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or like an user interface: b like a nokia it is . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you can get sort of outer casing for ipods and something , that 's just it 's protective as well . user interface: it 's yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: like the skin ? industrial designer: it , it stops it , i mean , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it would n't damage itself so easily . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: alright . so maybe the industrial designer: i think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber . industrial designer: and then yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the buttons obviously are rubber . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: that sounds good . i , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ? industrial designer: as far as i know . it should be . project manager: okay , marketing: project manager: we 'll just say yeah . user interface: project manager: yes , just why not . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: alright . i like the kinetic energy source idea . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , i do n't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot . industrial designer: i thought that was project manager: but i think that it 's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um user interface: yeah , tha marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: energy source . it could make an we could have any kind of style . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it would n't be as heavy or bulky , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . just for environmental reasons . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: i guess it 's a bit scary 'cause it has n't been done before . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it seems we 'd have to do more research on it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or i dunno if you could have a battery pack . industrial designer: like as a backup for something . user interface: backup . yeah . marketing: yeah so there 's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries i believe . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so , if it was running off of one battery as a user interface: that would be good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . some alternative just in case something went wrong . marketing: right . user interface: maybe we could you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power . industrial designer: that 's true . i just thought of that . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: so maybe that could be incorporated as industrial designer: may maybe that could be the backup . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: instead of a battery . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like solar backup . marketing: although it needs some light , does n't it ? industrial designer: yeah . i suppose project manager: yeah , you can watch a tv in the dark then . user interface: do , do those calculators industrial designer: s but some marketing: so , if we 're doing user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . if we 're industrial designer: but thing is , it 's not you do n't need the solar all the time . user interface: i do n't know how it works . industrial designer: it can be stored . it can be like you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like a few hours a day . . project manager: i think that might be a little impractical though . marketing: yeah . i think sometimes it 's just shoved under , under a cushion , project manager: yeah . marketing: and yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . it could easily user interface: yeah . project manager: like people do n't wan na have to worry about that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , i forgot to charge my remote today . user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like if the kinetic thing , i think what 's best about that is that it 's instant energy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it works . project manager: or just like pick it up when you 're gon na use it . industrial designer: yeah . instead of you do n't have to like make sure it 's in the right place to charge and . user interface: yeah , i suppose . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . cool . industrial designer: k okay . project manager: 's that the end of your presentation . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: there we go . user interface: thanks . oh . it 's not on my screen . industrial designer: it was n't on mine either . user interface: why ? industrial designer: i do n't know why . i think , i just , i just used the mouse on there . user interface: you do n't know why ? oh okay . is it that one ? project manager: yeah . that 's um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um , i 'm just gon na go through the interface concept with yous now . uh , first of all i 'll explain what a user interface is . it 's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or by the human user . and it 's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . um , there are two types of user interfaces . there 's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . so that 's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about . project manager: oh . okay . yeah . user interface: yeah . i 'm not really sure about the pictures that maybe that 's on an lcd screen . industrial designer: mm . user interface: or maybe it 's the the buttons or pictures or something . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: do you think it 's project manager: yeah , 'cause industrial designer: so i suppose sometime project manager: i 'm sorry ? industrial designer: after you . user interface: project manager: um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . you 're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm . user interface: so you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics . industrial designer: i s i suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have like the power would be s some kind of symbol . user interface: like an lcd screen . industrial designer: and if you wanted to go onto teletext or , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i know we 're not having that , but i mean a similar thing , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you , they have there 's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which i suppose it 's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably wo n't have to focus so much on that . project manager: yeah , we 'll be doing industrial designer: it 'll be more the on the numbers and the volume . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . it 'd be more a command interface , and then industrial designer: i suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so it 's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? industrial designer: i marketing: the infrared is like , that 's considered a project manager: hmm ? user interface: no i think it 's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that 's on the buttons of the remote control , and per marketing: okay . so when it says pointing device that does n't include industrial designer: for inp user interface: well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . i think they 're talking about lcd type things . industrial designer: mm . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: but um i think we 're gon na go with the command interface anyway , project manager: yeah . user interface: to make it more simplistic . but the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: as in just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . project manager: what do you mean ? user interface: like i ca n't think of an example , but sort of like little pictures rather than project manager: oh yeah , like how the buttons user interface: like a little sound . instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something . project manager: yeah , as a button though . user interface: yeah , something y marketing: mm . project manager: so , it 's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ? user interface: yeah m perha yeah . yeah . maybe . project manager: okay . yeah . i like that idea . user interface: um , the co uh we 've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . as it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we 'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . you know , make it more trendy and original . we 'll have more money if we keep it simple . project manager: yeah . i 'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . a bit more too , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . seeing as it 's quite a new technology . um we , we also have to keep in mind when we 're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms are n't always helpful . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . that 's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . user interface: yeah . and that all interfaces are different . so , um , that does n't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that 's easy to understand . and maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: does anyone have any questions ? project manager: do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look . user interface: mm . marketing: i think if we go with the um design plate thing , we 'll have to . just because of colour clashing , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if we wanted to , project manager: yeah . marketing: so and , and we might , i mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons . user interface: but um project manager: but what about the lighting up effect ? marketing: you mean different colours for the lighting or project manager: um , well , um , i thought we had um decided that we would if you touched one of the buttons they 'd all light up . and so if they were black , it would n't be possible for them to light up . marketing: mm-hmm . oh i see what you 're saying . project manager: if they were white they would glow , probably . marketing: well y project manager: if they were made out of rubber . marketing: oh so you 're picturing the light is coming from the back . i kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards . industrial designer: oh . project manager: oh . marketing: but , but i guess , you mean from the back . project manager: where would the light come from ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: i 'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something . project manager: yeah , marketing: right . project manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we have that taken care of . industrial designer: it should be able to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: in the phone that i was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber . industrial designer: li yeah . user interface: so you can change the buttons when you 're changing the faces . do you know what i mean ? marketing: oh . project manager: oh . user interface: 'cause it 's just the wee control , marketing: yeah . they , they insert over . user interface: yeah , thing that 's behind it . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . user interface: so i mean , we do n't have to decide on one colour . each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: well , if they 're raised up buttons . so that you can feel them . user interface: yeah . project manager: we were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible . marketing: t project manager: um , it might be more difficult to do . if they 're , if they 're sticking up . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it 's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it 's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think it would be possible . i do n't think it would make that much difference . i mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'cause if it 's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . you can like take off the hard cover and then there 's the like say the buttons . and then you get to the circuit . i do n't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . i 'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: i 'm sure that 'd be fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . if it 's do-able we can do . user interface: project manager: yeah , sounds good to me . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's everything , then ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , thank you . marketing: okay is that my turn then ? project manager: that means you 're up . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . i have a shorter report for you today . um , it took a while to get this , uh uh . industrial designer: you 're not plugged in yet . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: that 's a very good point . project manager: user interface: marketing: okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . sorry . there we go . um so , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . i also spoke with fashion experts in milan , new york and paris . and i looked at the design reports from previous years , here at real remote . um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . um , so i 'll list the three most important aspects that i 've come across . um , and they , they 're each more important than the one that comes after it . uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . um , this should be our priority , as we 've been saying . the second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . so , i think we 've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the face-plates . um , so it looks like we 'll be able to keep on track with that . and the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . so , pretty basic there . and the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in paris and milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . again , we 've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . um so , my personal preferences here , um of course , as we , we 've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and i 'd like to stick to that . the fruits and vegetable themes , i do n't know if that 's going to work for us . it sounds something that you 'd use on kitchenware . industrial designer: mm . marketing: i do n't know if we wan na do it on remotes . user interface: marketing: it could be one of the options . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we 're gon na stick to that . and then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that i find rather jarring . everything else we can really , we can really industrial designer: it is strange . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . but fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control . marketing: it 's , it 's a little but it , it 's everywhere . industrial designer: well user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so maybe we i 've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: but i i think , i think if we stick to tv based , you know , maybe tv shows , or project manager: but they still need to um fit into people 's decor though . user interface: yeah . marketing: or colour schemes . industrial designer: we i think we possibly could take a more abstract design . marketing: right . industrial designer: like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . and then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . i mean we do n't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or a strawberry seed or a leaf . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: the the essence of strawberry . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that 's fits in more with what we 're doing . instead of fruits and vegetables , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: just if you look at it straightforward , it 's a bit yeah . it does n't s quite fit in with the trendy well , obviously it does , if that 's the current theme . project manager: yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but may maybe we could go more directly , i do n't know . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but initially , i dunno . i think if we just sort of tone it down a bit . project manager: tone it down . yeah , industrial designer: yeah and like not , not marketing: i guess , yeah . project manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or banana-shaped . marketing: one thing i was thinking though is project manager: marketing: i dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe there could be animal-based , you know . because a lot of people have a house cat . or , or a dog . industrial designer: mm . marketing: um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . but it 's something to keep in mind . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and , did you have any questions ? pretty straightforward ? project manager: yeah um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . so i 'll need to um hook up the powerpoint again . marketing: there you go . have you guys been saving your powerpoint presentations to the industrial designer: i did n't for the first one . but i have now . marketing: okay . project manager: but it 's still around right ? industrial designer: yeah . uh , hopefully project manager: okay . user interface: where do you have to save it to ? industrial designer: . project documents i think . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . i 'm just trying to make this pop up now . alright . here we go . okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . so energy , we industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh . oh no i ca n't write it in when it 's in this setting . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: does anyone know how to take it out of um , user interface: just escape i think . marketing: the powerpoint ? project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . um , so back to decisions . energy , we 've decided on kinetic , right ? industrial designer: kinetic yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so that 's good . industrial designer: are we going to have a backup ? project manager: hmm . industrial designer: or do we just project manager: but would a backup really be necessary ? i mean will people just use the battery if there 's no , if there 's , industrial designer: i think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy , project manager: if there is backup . industrial designer: and be bold and innovative , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think project manager: there 's like no reason why it would n't work , right ? industrial designer: yeah . i think no . i , i think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential . marketing: so project manager: yeah . it could even be one of our selling points . industrial designer: go for it . it could be user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: fully kinetic energy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: environmentally conscious or something . industrial designer: is everyone happy with that ? marketing: so if it 's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: hope so . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , the next um decision is chip on print . i do n't exactly know what that means . industrial designer: um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . and that linked in with what buttons we would gon na have , so project manager: right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ? industrial designer: yeah , it was user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that was without the lcd . so that means we 're not doing the advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons . project manager: i think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ? industrial designer: uh , so that 's the simple . user interface: yeah . i don project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ? industrial designer: yeah possibly . project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: so , it 's probably gon na be the regular chip that we 're going to need . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's a medium . project manager: that 's called medium , or regular ? industrial designer: so regular chip . regular sorry . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: regular chip . marketing: oh , is regular not simple ? industrial designer: lighting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah if we user interface: it 's for the lighting , yeah . industrial designer: because of the lighting that we 've decided to put in as well . marketing: right right right . project manager: okay , and cases . um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it 's made of , or what ? industrial designer: so th i think this is just like gon na be the a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . well , i guess plastic and coated in rubber . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: yeah industrial designer: yeah . project manager: plastic with rubber industrial designer: plastic rubber coat . user interface: plastic coat . project manager: coating and interchangeable um industrial designer: interchangeable , yeah . still going for that . project manager: yeah , interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface concept . this is your time to shine . user interface: we decided on the component . i , i i 'm sorry , i 've lost my um powerpoint thing , so i ca n't remember what it 's ca it 's the component industrial designer: your screen ? marketing: think it was called command interface . industrial designer: was it project manager: oh , yeah . yeah . marketing: command interface , . user interface: the command inter project manager: command interface . industrial designer: ouch . user interface: the command line interface yeah . project manager: did you say command line ? okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: line interface . marketing: project manager: alright , and supplements . what 's that all about ? user interface: um , i think that is marketing: project manager: user interface: well we have n't really made any decisions about what we 're gon na do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the in consistent use . like what what are ideas to combat these problems ? project manager: um user interface: you know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: we have n't really decided what to do about that . project manager: um , what are our choices here ? user interface: well it 's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . what kind of functions wi shall we have ? project manager: you mean like we 'll have the numbers of the channels , and we 'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ? industrial designer: the power . volume . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um user interface: so pretty just just the basic button functions . project manager: yeah . like i do n't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have industrial designer: may yeah . project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: tone , contrast , and things . that 's a bit marketing: that was on , um one of my presentations . about how often it was used . project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah , it was minima marketing: do you remember that ? industrial designer: well , it was n't the l project manager: yeah , it was hardly ever used really . user interface: yeah . marketing: i w should i bring it up ? project manager: yeah . and most televisions will come with a remote . industrial designer: yeah . that would be good . yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television , user interface: yeah , each television . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so project manager: 'kay , well we know we want numbers . marketing: the ch t screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . so tw twice every once every two hours . um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . that 's brightness , colour , tone , all that . industrial designer: mm . i think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself , user interface: you do n't change that often , yeah . industrial designer: does n't it ? i 'm sure it has its own buttons , so you do n't necessarily need to have it on remote . project manager: yeah , it does . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , and different televisions . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . project manager: like we , i do n't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: changes like that . industrial designer: so we 're just going for power , channels , volume , project manager: volume . marketing: the other one was audio settings . mono , stereo , pitch . i mean i sometimes use that . some tvs will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um user interface: yeah . marketing: and that , they say that 's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . like almost once an hour . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , relevance of two . project manager: oh . we have five minutes to finish our meeting . user interface: project manager: crap . okay , um , let 's do this fast . um industrial designer: marketing: well that did n't some up on mine . project manager: should we have audio ? it only comes up on mine usually . user interface: it w it would seem silly if we 'd having anything else , just have an audio button though . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah , user interface: do you know ? project manager: i do n't , i it 's , it 's a problem with the international uh appeal , i think . um , if we have audio because we do n't know how other televisions work . but we know that everyone has this and it 's the same . user interface: but we industrial designer: i 've marketing: yeah i guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , mm it is a good sales ploy to say , are n't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: this one has channel , volume and your channe and your power . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . we can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic . user interface: that could be a sales pitch . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: simple and project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah uh i marketing: okay . project manager: alright . industrial designer: brilliant . user interface: yeah . project manager: good . and , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . we 'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . um , you 'll be working , poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . wait a minute . is that right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . and you 'll be evaluating the product . um , poppy and tara will have to work together , using modelling clay . user interface: project manager: and , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright . so , anyone else have something to say ? industrial designer: um , i just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: are we seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , i thi i think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that 's what the surveys brought out , i think that we should probably go along with that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , so i suppose that 'll come out in our dev design development . but you 're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ? marketing: now do you guys need want an idea of how many uh are you gon na come up with casing ideas ? industrial designer: y yeah . marketing: like f five different user interface: yeah . project manager: five . . user interface: what i what i was thinking what do yous think of this ? um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: like grapes . like that 's kind of fruity or something . marketing: yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it 's true . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 's just industrial designer: we can have a look at those ideas , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess what you i ideally you 'd kind of think of age markets as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . something that your granny would want on her remote control . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , and international tastes as well , so project manager: yeah . industrial designer: tricky . a lot of things to consider . hm . user interface: marketing: not easy . project manager: yeah . lots of user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . alright . industrial designer: okay . project manager: 'kay we 'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then . user interface: project manager: alright . and , um , we 'll reconvene in thirty minutes . marketing: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: bye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: marketing: project manager: i 'll see you later . oh , what did i just do . okay .

industrial designer thought that the vegetable and fruit theme could be applied with a more abstract design , like stripping it down to basic shapes or curves . also , as a result of market research , design development should stick to this theme rather than moving to animals .

what was the decision of the discussion of the chip ? </s> project manager: is everyone ready to start ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . great . well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . i 'll just get the powerpoint presentation up and running . okay . um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we 'll have your three presentations on what you 've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . and , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we 're gon na make it , what uh materials we 're gon na use , and that sort of thing . industrial designer: project manager: the meeting will be forty minutes long . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and um we will once again have poppy as our first presenter . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , and i will switch up powerpoint . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: okay . industrial designer: should be just loading . okay . oh , although i ca n't see it on my screen . that says go here . okay . i 've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what 's available to us f to actually make the remote control . um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source . marketing: industrial designer: which is not necessarily a battery , as we 're about to see . um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we 'll be getting them from , what they 'll be made of . um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . which is where all the main information is uh contained . um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . um , and all their positioning in the circuit . project manager: um are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ? industrial designer: uh , these , they 're all different options , they 're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: we can go into that later . um , all the other things are individual components that we 'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . and the l_e_d_ of course , that 's a light emitting diode . so , we could , so we 've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . we could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . and they 're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . there 's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . a bit out of date . kinetic energy is something that 's been recently developed . project manager: um what is a hand-powered dynamo ? industrial designer: um , where you manually charge up the power . project manager: just every , every once in a while ? industrial designer: like you wind up something . project manager: just every once in a while or constantly ? industrial designer: sorry ? yeah . every once in a while i think project manager: alright . it 'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it i think . industrial designer: . but it 's yeah . it would be like going a step back in time . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology . project manager: no . marketing: industrial designer: whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that 's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . i mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . um , or there 's solar power , which we 've been considering inside a building , which is where it 's gon na be used , might not be quite so useful . project manager: right . industrial designer: but , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . that 's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . like how it 's comfortable and s sits in the hand . we do n't want something that 's huge and you ca n't pick up . or too small . or too slidy . i know i 've had a remote control before which you could n't tell which was the front and the back , user interface: industrial designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that i 'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: because you ca n't really see which way round it is . project manager: right . industrial designer: um , we also can choose what materials um , the we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-r_s_i_ . it 's like the same sort of rubber that 's used in stress balls and things like that , so it 's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: wood . project manager: industrial designer: um , again , stepping back in time again there . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't think that 's quite up to date with what we 're looking for here . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , titanium is not gon na be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . but , would 've been maybe for future projects . um right our choice for buttons as well . we 've developed some we 've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . i think that was brought up for , um , they 're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you do n't have to use individual buttons . you can just slide up and down . i 'm sure we 're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: um one thing with the scroll buttons though . it , it industrial designer: project manager: we would have to have an lcd um industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . project manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult . industrial designer: and that would lead to an advanced yeah . if we have yeah . we 're going on to that later with the advanc with the lcd that means we 'd need a really advanced chip . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it 's unlikely that that 's gon na be in our budget . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um , also we 've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we 're most familiar with . it 's the most straightforward . but you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . . got decisions to make there . and this is what i was just saying before . linked in the different depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . um simple would go with the pushbutton . um , regular you could link with the scroll button . and the advanced we 'd have to go with a lcd s display . project manager: right . industrial designer: my personal preferences ? i think we could go for the kinetic energy source . i do n't , i think that 's quite um an advanced kind of technology . it 's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . and also energy saving 'cause you 're producing the energy , you do n't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . you just give it a shake . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: sounds brilliant to me . project manager: uh . industrial designer: rubber casing i thing would probably the best , if we 're going for the anti-r_s_i_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . like it could be pretty much any colour we want . um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . and probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple , marketing: industrial designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no lcd , 'cause we probably ca n't afford that one . project manager: yeah . um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these chips and diodes and delicate technology as industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: like as the exterior . this is the one thing that 's protecting its innards . industrial designer: i think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . and the rubber would just be the , what 's in contact with the human . project manager: yeah . another thing is it might be more difficult if it 's a rubber exterior talking about putting on interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , is it industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i do n't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . it would work that way . industrial designer: maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case . user interface: w industrial designer: so , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable . user interface: like plastic with rubber , kind of on top industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like i ca n't think of what . user interface: well , there 's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or like an user interface: b like a nokia it is . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you can get sort of outer casing for ipods and something , that 's just it 's protective as well . user interface: it 's yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: like the skin ? industrial designer: it , it stops it , i mean , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it would n't damage itself so easily . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: alright . so maybe the industrial designer: i think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber . industrial designer: and then yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the buttons obviously are rubber . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: that sounds good . i , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ? industrial designer: as far as i know . it should be . project manager: okay , marketing: project manager: we 'll just say yeah . user interface: project manager: yes , just why not . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: alright . i like the kinetic energy source idea . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , i do n't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot . industrial designer: i thought that was project manager: but i think that it 's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um user interface: yeah , tha marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: energy source . it could make an we could have any kind of style . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it would n't be as heavy or bulky , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . just for environmental reasons . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: marketing: i guess it 's a bit scary 'cause it has n't been done before . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it seems we 'd have to do more research on it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or i dunno if you could have a battery pack . industrial designer: like as a backup for something . user interface: backup . yeah . marketing: yeah so there 's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries i believe . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so , if it was running off of one battery as a user interface: that would be good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . some alternative just in case something went wrong . marketing: right . user interface: maybe we could you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power . industrial designer: that 's true . i just thought of that . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: so maybe that could be incorporated as industrial designer: may maybe that could be the backup . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: instead of a battery . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like solar backup . marketing: although it needs some light , does n't it ? industrial designer: yeah . i suppose project manager: yeah , you can watch a tv in the dark then . user interface: do , do those calculators industrial designer: s but some marketing: so , if we 're doing user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . if we 're industrial designer: but thing is , it 's not you do n't need the solar all the time . user interface: i do n't know how it works . industrial designer: it can be stored . it can be like you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like a few hours a day . . project manager: i think that might be a little impractical though . marketing: yeah . i think sometimes it 's just shoved under , under a cushion , project manager: yeah . marketing: and yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . it could easily user interface: yeah . project manager: like people do n't wan na have to worry about that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , i forgot to charge my remote today . user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like if the kinetic thing , i think what 's best about that is that it 's instant energy . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and it works . project manager: or just like pick it up when you 're gon na use it . industrial designer: yeah . instead of you do n't have to like make sure it 's in the right place to charge and . user interface: yeah , i suppose . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . cool . industrial designer: k okay . project manager: 's that the end of your presentation . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: thank you . industrial designer: there we go . user interface: thanks . oh . it 's not on my screen . industrial designer: it was n't on mine either . user interface: why ? industrial designer: i do n't know why . i think , i just , i just used the mouse on there . user interface: you do n't know why ? oh okay . is it that one ? project manager: yeah . that 's um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: um , i 'm just gon na go through the interface concept with yous now . uh , first of all i 'll explain what a user interface is . it 's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or by the human user . and it 's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . um , there are two types of user interfaces . there 's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . so that 's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about . project manager: oh . okay . yeah . user interface: yeah . i 'm not really sure about the pictures that maybe that 's on an lcd screen . industrial designer: mm . user interface: or maybe it 's the the buttons or pictures or something . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: do you think it 's project manager: yeah , 'cause industrial designer: so i suppose sometime project manager: i 'm sorry ? industrial designer: after you . user interface: project manager: um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . you 're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm . user interface: so you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics . industrial designer: i s i suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have like the power would be s some kind of symbol . user interface: like an lcd screen . industrial designer: and if you wanted to go onto teletext or , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i know we 're not having that , but i mean a similar thing , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you , they have there 's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which i suppose it 's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but if we 're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably wo n't have to focus so much on that . project manager: yeah , we 'll be doing industrial designer: it 'll be more the on the numbers and the volume . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . it 'd be more a command interface , and then industrial designer: i suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so it 's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? industrial designer: i marketing: the infrared is like , that 's considered a project manager: hmm ? user interface: no i think it 's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that 's on the buttons of the remote control , and per marketing: okay . so when it says pointing device that does n't include industrial designer: for inp user interface: well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . i think they 're talking about lcd type things . industrial designer: mm . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: but um i think we 're gon na go with the command interface anyway , project manager: yeah . user interface: to make it more simplistic . but the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: as in just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . project manager: what do you mean ? user interface: like i ca n't think of an example , but sort of like little pictures rather than project manager: oh yeah , like how the buttons user interface: like a little sound . instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something . project manager: yeah , as a button though . user interface: yeah , something y marketing: mm . project manager: so , it 's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ? user interface: yeah m perha yeah . yeah . maybe . project manager: okay . yeah . i like that idea . user interface: um , the co uh we 've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . as it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we 'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . you know , make it more trendy and original . we 'll have more money if we keep it simple . project manager: yeah . i 'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . a bit more too , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . seeing as it 's quite a new technology . um we , we also have to keep in mind when we 're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms are n't always helpful . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . that 's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . user interface: yeah . and that all interfaces are different . so , um , that does n't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that 's easy to understand . and maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . user interface: does anyone have any questions ? project manager: do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look . user interface: mm . marketing: i think if we go with the um design plate thing , we 'll have to . just because of colour clashing , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if we wanted to , project manager: yeah . marketing: so and , and we might , i mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons . user interface: but um project manager: but what about the lighting up effect ? marketing: you mean different colours for the lighting or project manager: um , well , um , i thought we had um decided that we would if you touched one of the buttons they 'd all light up . and so if they were black , it would n't be possible for them to light up . marketing: mm-hmm . oh i see what you 're saying . project manager: if they were white they would glow , probably . marketing: well y project manager: if they were made out of rubber . marketing: oh so you 're picturing the light is coming from the back . i kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards . industrial designer: oh . project manager: oh . marketing: but , but i guess , you mean from the back . project manager: where would the light come from ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: i 'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something . project manager: yeah , marketing: right . project manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we have that taken care of . industrial designer: it should be able to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: in the phone that i was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber . industrial designer: li yeah . user interface: so you can change the buttons when you 're changing the faces . do you know what i mean ? marketing: oh . project manager: oh . user interface: 'cause it 's just the wee control , marketing: yeah . they , they insert over . user interface: yeah , thing that 's behind it . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . user interface: so i mean , we do n't have to decide on one colour . each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: well , if they 're raised up buttons . so that you can feel them . user interface: yeah . project manager: we were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible . marketing: t project manager: um , it might be more difficult to do . if they 're , if they 're sticking up . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it 's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it 's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think it would be possible . i do n't think it would make that much difference . i mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'cause if it 's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . you can like take off the hard cover and then there 's the like say the buttons . and then you get to the circuit . i do n't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . i 'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: i 'm sure that 'd be fine . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . if it 's do-able we can do . user interface: project manager: yeah , sounds good to me . industrial designer: user interface: so that 's everything , then ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright , thank you . marketing: okay is that my turn then ? project manager: that means you 're up . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . i have a shorter report for you today . um , it took a while to get this , uh uh . industrial designer: you 're not plugged in yet . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: that 's a very good point . project manager: user interface: marketing: okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . sorry . there we go . um so , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . i also spoke with fashion experts in milan , new york and paris . and i looked at the design reports from previous years , here at real remote . um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . um , so i 'll list the three most important aspects that i 've come across . um , and they , they 're each more important than the one that comes after it . uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . um , this should be our priority , as we 've been saying . the second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . so , i think we 've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the face-plates . um , so it looks like we 'll be able to keep on track with that . and the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . so , pretty basic there . and the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in paris and milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . again , we 've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . um so , my personal preferences here , um of course , as we , we 've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and i 'd like to stick to that . the fruits and vegetable themes , i do n't know if that 's going to work for us . it sounds something that you 'd use on kitchenware . industrial designer: mm . marketing: i do n't know if we wan na do it on remotes . user interface: marketing: it could be one of the options . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we 're gon na stick to that . and then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that i find rather jarring . everything else we can really , we can really industrial designer: it is strange . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . but fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control . marketing: it 's , it 's a little but it , it 's everywhere . industrial designer: well user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: so maybe we i 've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: but i i think , i think if we stick to tv based , you know , maybe tv shows , or project manager: but they still need to um fit into people 's decor though . user interface: yeah . marketing: or colour schemes . industrial designer: we i think we possibly could take a more abstract design . marketing: right . industrial designer: like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . and then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . i mean we do n't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: or a strawberry seed or a leaf . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: the the essence of strawberry . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that 's fits in more with what we 're doing . instead of fruits and vegetables , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: just if you look at it straightforward , it 's a bit yeah . it does n't s quite fit in with the trendy well , obviously it does , if that 's the current theme . project manager: yeah . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but may maybe we could go more directly , i do n't know . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but initially , i dunno . i think if we just sort of tone it down a bit . project manager: tone it down . yeah , industrial designer: yeah and like not , not marketing: i guess , yeah . project manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or banana-shaped . marketing: one thing i was thinking though is project manager: marketing: i dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals . user interface: yeah . marketing: so maybe there could be animal-based , you know . because a lot of people have a house cat . or , or a dog . industrial designer: mm . marketing: um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . but it 's something to keep in mind . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and , did you have any questions ? pretty straightforward ? project manager: yeah um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . so i 'll need to um hook up the powerpoint again . marketing: there you go . have you guys been saving your powerpoint presentations to the industrial designer: i did n't for the first one . but i have now . marketing: okay . project manager: but it 's still around right ? industrial designer: yeah . uh , hopefully project manager: okay . user interface: where do you have to save it to ? industrial designer: . project documents i think . user interface: okay . project manager: okay . i 'm just trying to make this pop up now . alright . here we go . okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . so energy , we industrial designer: okay . project manager: oh . oh no i ca n't write it in when it 's in this setting . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: does anyone know how to take it out of um , user interface: just escape i think . marketing: the powerpoint ? project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . um , so back to decisions . energy , we 've decided on kinetic , right ? industrial designer: kinetic yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so that 's good . industrial designer: are we going to have a backup ? project manager: hmm . industrial designer: or do we just project manager: but would a backup really be necessary ? i mean will people just use the battery if there 's no , if there 's , industrial designer: i think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy , project manager: if there is backup . industrial designer: and be bold and innovative , user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think project manager: there 's like no reason why it would n't work , right ? industrial designer: yeah . i think no . i , i think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential . marketing: so project manager: yeah . it could even be one of our selling points . industrial designer: go for it . it could be user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: fully kinetic energy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: environmentally conscious or something . industrial designer: is everyone happy with that ? marketing: so if it 's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: hope so . marketing: okay . project manager: alright , the next um decision is chip on print . i do n't exactly know what that means . industrial designer: um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . and that linked in with what buttons we would gon na have , so project manager: right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ? industrial designer: yeah , it was user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that was without the lcd . so that means we 're not doing the advanced . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons . project manager: i think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ? industrial designer: uh , so that 's the simple . user interface: yeah . i don project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ? industrial designer: yeah possibly . project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: so , it 's probably gon na be the regular chip that we 're going to need . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's a medium . project manager: that 's called medium , or regular ? industrial designer: so regular chip . regular sorry . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: regular chip . marketing: oh , is regular not simple ? industrial designer: lighting . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah if we user interface: it 's for the lighting , yeah . industrial designer: because of the lighting that we 've decided to put in as well . marketing: right right right . project manager: okay , and cases . um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it 's made of , or what ? industrial designer: so th i think this is just like gon na be the a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . well , i guess plastic and coated in rubber . industrial designer: rubber . user interface: yeah industrial designer: yeah . project manager: plastic with rubber industrial designer: plastic rubber coat . user interface: plastic coat . project manager: coating and interchangeable um industrial designer: interchangeable , yeah . still going for that . project manager: yeah , interchangeable plates . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface concept . this is your time to shine . user interface: we decided on the component . i , i i 'm sorry , i 've lost my um powerpoint thing , so i ca n't remember what it 's ca it 's the component industrial designer: your screen ? marketing: think it was called command interface . industrial designer: was it project manager: oh , yeah . yeah . marketing: command interface , . user interface: the command inter project manager: command interface . industrial designer: ouch . user interface: the command line interface yeah . project manager: did you say command line ? okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: line interface . marketing: project manager: alright , and supplements . what 's that all about ? user interface: um , i think that is marketing: project manager: user interface: well we have n't really made any decisions about what we 're gon na do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the in consistent use . like what what are ideas to combat these problems ? project manager: um user interface: you know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: we have n't really decided what to do about that . project manager: um , what are our choices here ? user interface: well it 's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . what kind of functions wi shall we have ? project manager: you mean like we 'll have the numbers of the channels , and we 'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ? industrial designer: the power . volume . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um user interface: so pretty just just the basic button functions . project manager: yeah . like i do n't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have industrial designer: may yeah . project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: tone , contrast , and things . that 's a bit marketing: that was on , um one of my presentations . about how often it was used . project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah , it was minima marketing: do you remember that ? industrial designer: well , it was n't the l project manager: yeah , it was hardly ever used really . user interface: yeah . marketing: i w should i bring it up ? project manager: yeah . and most televisions will come with a remote . industrial designer: yeah . that would be good . yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television , user interface: yeah , each television . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so project manager: 'kay , well we know we want numbers . marketing: the ch t screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . so tw twice every once every two hours . um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . that 's brightness , colour , tone , all that . industrial designer: mm . i think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself , user interface: you do n't change that often , yeah . industrial designer: does n't it ? i 'm sure it has its own buttons , so you do n't necessarily need to have it on remote . project manager: yeah , it does . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , and different televisions . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . project manager: like we , i do n't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: changes like that . industrial designer: so we 're just going for power , channels , volume , project manager: volume . marketing: the other one was audio settings . mono , stereo , pitch . i mean i sometimes use that . some tvs will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um user interface: yeah . marketing: and that , they say that 's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . like almost once an hour . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , relevance of two . project manager: oh . we have five minutes to finish our meeting . user interface: project manager: crap . okay , um , let 's do this fast . um industrial designer: marketing: well that did n't some up on mine . project manager: should we have audio ? it only comes up on mine usually . user interface: it w it would seem silly if we 'd having anything else , just have an audio button though . marketing: oh . project manager: yeah , user interface: do you know ? project manager: i do n't , i it 's , it 's a problem with the international uh appeal , i think . um , if we have audio because we do n't know how other televisions work . but we know that everyone has this and it 's the same . user interface: but we industrial designer: i 've marketing: yeah i guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , mm it is a good sales ploy to say , are n't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: this one has channel , volume and your channe and your power . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . we can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic . user interface: that could be a sales pitch . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: simple and project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah uh i marketing: okay . project manager: alright . industrial designer: brilliant . user interface: yeah . project manager: good . and , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . we 'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . um , you 'll be working , poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . wait a minute . is that right ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . and you 'll be evaluating the product . um , poppy and tara will have to work together , using modelling clay . user interface: project manager: and , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen . industrial designer: okay . project manager: alright . so , anyone else have something to say ? industrial designer: um , i just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: are we seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , i thi i think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that 's what the surveys brought out , i think that we should probably go along with that . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , so i suppose that 'll come out in our dev design development . but you 're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ? marketing: now do you guys need want an idea of how many uh are you gon na come up with casing ideas ? industrial designer: y yeah . marketing: like f five different user interface: yeah . project manager: five . . user interface: what i what i was thinking what do yous think of this ? um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: like grapes . like that 's kind of fruity or something . marketing: yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it 's true . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 's just industrial designer: we can have a look at those ideas , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess what you i ideally you 'd kind of think of age markets as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it 's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . something that your granny would want on her remote control . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , and international tastes as well , so project manager: yeah . industrial designer: tricky . a lot of things to consider . hm . user interface: marketing: not easy . project manager: yeah . lots of user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . alright . industrial designer: okay . project manager: 'kay we 'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then . user interface: project manager: alright . and , um , we 'll reconvene in thirty minutes . marketing: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: bye . marketing: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: marketing: project manager: i 'll see you later . oh , what did i just do . okay .

the group selected the regular-style chip without the lcd display . it only had simple push buttons except for a more advanced one for the interior lighting system .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask if there are any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill : stage 2 proceedings . i 'm pleased to welcome julie morgan am , deputy minister for health and social services ; karen cornish , deputy director , children and families division at welsh government ; and emma gammon , lawyer for welsh government . thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee . i 'm just going to run through the procedures that we 're going to follow now . as i said , the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . for these proceedings , members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments , the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments . the marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled , marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the bill . the order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is , sections 1 to 3 and the long title . you will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate . however , the order in which they 're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list . members will , therefore , need to follow the two papers , although i will advise members when i call them whether they 're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision . there will be one debate on each group of amendments . members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way . i will call the deputy minister to speak on each group . for the record , in accordance with the convention agreed by the business committee , as chair i will move amendments in the name of the deputy minister . for expediency , i will assume that the deputy minister wishes me to move all of her amendments , and i will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list . deputy minister , if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved , please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings . in line with our usual practice , legal advisers to the committee and the deputy minister are not expected to provide advice on the record . if members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings , please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and , if necessary , we can adjourn . my intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today 's meeting . i will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time , if necessary . okay , thank you . so , we will proceed , then , to group 1 , which is the duty to promote public awareness . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 1 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . my amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the act commences . i tabled these amendments in response to this committee 's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the stage 1 report , so i have responded to that . i 've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from royal assent , should the bill be passed . i 've considered amendments 1a to 1e , which have been tabled by janet finch-saunders , and which relate to the duty to raise awareness . amendment 1a introduces a reference to public understanding . we do n't think , actually , that this adds anything to the government amendment , which already mentions awareness . it makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit , which is not necessary . by commencement , messaging around the change in the law will be embedded . the awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years . therefore , an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required . i understand , of course , that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive , well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change , and understand how to respond to it . but i do n't think it 's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups , such as visitors to wales , on the face of the bill—that 's the approach taken in amendment 1e—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others . in relation to children , the committee will know that i 'm fully committed to children ’ s rights , and that welsh ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions . an additional due regard requirement , such as the one set out in amendment 1d , relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed . this would be part and parcel of the welsh government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making . similarly , i do n't think it 's necessary for the bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign , as is suggested in amendments 1b and 1c . that level of detail , i do n't think , is for the face of the bill . information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group , under the auspices of the bill ’ s strategic implementation group , working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign . and , really , their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the bill . i think we always need to bear in mind that what the bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence ; it does not create a new offence . and in this context , it does n't make sense for this bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished . as i set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point , safeguarding is everyone ’ s business , and , as now , the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child . i 'm asking for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and i ask members to reject amendments 1a to 1e because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . are there other members who wish to speak ? janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i wish to speak to amendments 1a to 1e , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness . while we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law , the deputy minister 's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. an important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that i 've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign , which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the bill , but serves as a duty for future administrations . amendment 1a : primarily , amendment 1a changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . i do n't think it 's enough for the welsh government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the welsh government 's objectives have been achieved . despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour , the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors . instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence , this law will remove a defence for parents , information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives , potentially separate parents , and could affect employment chances . as such , whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign , it is important too that the welsh government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign . the witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: janet , dawn is asking if you 'll take an intervention . janet finch-saunders am: yes . dawn bowden am: i just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there 's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it 's been passed ? janet finch-saunders am: there 's a lot of legislation . the first assembly term when i was here— dawn bowden am: yes , what i 'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: i 'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: what i 'm asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? janet finch-saunders am: the very first term that i was an assembly member , we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation . even today , as i sit here , the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation . this particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in wales . so , therefore , i think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved , and i shall speak now— dawn bowden am: with respect , chair , that 's not the question i asked . janet finch-saunders am: —to my amendments . lynne neagle am: i can call you in the debate , if you 'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this . yes . janet finch-saunders am: the witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications . and that 's what we 're talking about here , members—the implications of removing this defence . strikingly , the office of police and crime commissioner for gwent stated the following : 'the potential for public resistance to the bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation . ' if you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment , it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this bill . additionally , the committee found that while the current welsh government 's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt , future governments may have less of a commitment . this places further weight on the fact that the welsh government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the bill beyond its commencement . furthermore , the children ( equal protection from assault ) ( scotland ) bill quite clearly notes that , under section 2 , the scottish ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister can respond as to the reasons why the welsh government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment . [ interruption . ] should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: are you taking an intervention ? janet finch-saunders am: no . i 'd rather crack on , to be honest . lynne neagle am: okay . i can call you in the debate , hefin . janet finch-saunders am: should our amendment to be agreed , we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. amendment 1b : amendment 1b is in line with the committee 's recommendation 9 , which stated that , as part of a public awareness campaign , there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children . during evidence at stage 1 , the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence . for example , children in wales , action for children and play wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support . welsh government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need . now , while the deputy minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information , a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future welsh governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign . i note the deputy minister accepted the recommendation , through our amendment , but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents . as will be expanded upon later , the deputy minister has relied upon the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising . however , this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups . amendment 1c : amendment 1c supports the committee 's recommendation 15 that explains that the welsh government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted . we urged , at stage 1 , that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment , regardless of the bill , other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded . in particular , some were worried that children , who may not realise the implications of reporting , could make allegations that are actually untrue . while we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations , this could also be reflected among adults , if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault . lynne neagle am: thank you . i 've got several speakers . i 've got suzy davies first , then dawn bowden . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . thank you minister , and thank you , janet , for that . i think it 's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by janet there are based on committee recommendations , and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large , but also you as well . so , that suggests that , at that stage , we were n't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report . now , i recognise that you 've moved some way on some of these amendments , and we 'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups . but the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation , now—that means that this is the instrument of the assembly , not of government , and if this assembly feels that the face of the bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign , then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign . the list that janet has given is a minimum . the reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be , so it will be disappointing to hear that you 're rejecting them all , and the reason they need to go on the face of the bill is that , if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation , at the moment we have no reassurance about how you 're going to do that—about what input the assembly , on behalf of our constituents , could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign . unless you accept some amendments in other groups , that is the position with this bill : the influence of the assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign . in terms of it being non-time limited , i think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting , never-ending campaign of awareness raising . but if you bear in mind that , seven years after the introduction of this bill , there 's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the bill , what is the point of doing that if you do n't then have an obligation , should the reports require it to be necessary , to continue promoting the changes in the law ? i accept that that ca n't go on for centuries , but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive , and which has a reach beyond our boundaries , i think is genuinely a mistake . finally , you mention that safeguarding is everyone 's business . i think that 's true , but i think janet finch-saunders was right to say that members of the public , ordinary individuals , not professionals , will need assurance that they 're doing the right thing . the amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that , although that can be read in that way , but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing . if this is going to be up to the individual , as you 've said , and the committee itself was n't reassured that individuals would know what to do , perhaps i can ask you to consider at stage 3 , if you 're going to reject this amendment , how you can reassure members of the public that , if they are going to intervene on the back of this law , they 're making things better , not worse . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . dawn . dawn bowden am: my comments , really , relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns , which i think all of us would want to see , and would appreciate in any changes in legislation . my point , really , is that we have a plethora of legislation that this assembly has passed in the last 20 years , and i 'm not aware of any legislation where , on the face of the bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis . it seems to me that , for some reason , you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation . from what the deputy minister is saying—and perhaps i will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign . that awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it . it could also , i assume , deputy minister , be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use . but the point i 'm trying to make is that i do n't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns , and particularly in relation to visitors to wales . again , we have other pieces of legislation in wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the uk . i am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do n't . and similarly , when we go to visit countries that have different legislation , we do n't necessarily know what legislation we 're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws . so , my key point , chair , is just the necessity of an ongoing , endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , dawn . hefin . hefin david am: my comments follow logically from dawn bowden 's comments , particularly in relation to amendments 1d and 1e . what you would be doing is that this senedd , if this was on the face of the bill , the duty on ministers , would be putting the duty on ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth senedd , into the next senedd term , and putting that duty on those newly elected ministers after that , which , in principle , would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: hefin , are you taking an intervention from suzy ? hefin david am: yes , happy to . suzy davies am: when you 've finished your point . hefin david am: i 'm happy to take it now , because i was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made , actually . suzy davies am: i 'd love that . you referred to this potentially binding ministers in future assemblies ; at the moment , we 've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this act into the assembly after next . i 'm wondering if you 're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on . hefin david am: well , when we get to that amendment , i 'll make comments if i feel it necessary . but at this point in time , we 're talking about amendments 1d and 1e , and particularly in relation to 1d and 1e it just is n't necessary , given the fact that—i wo n't call it a concession , because i think you made a reasonable point about the minister making a statement at stage 3 , and i think dawn bowden actually supported that as well . that , therefore , makes those amendments unnecessary . given that , in these circumstances , it is unnecessary to bind ministers in future parliaments . and that 's my key point , really , which is why i would n't vote for those two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you . siân . sian gwenllian am: thank you very much . i just want to speak against amendment 1a and also amendment 1b . i do n't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign , as is outlined in 1a . i agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change , and therefore i 'm very glad to see that the government has brought forward amendment 1 , and i do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change . in terms of amendment 1b , i do have sympathy with what is being said here , but i believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the government , through various programmes , and it should not be an addition on the face of this bill , which deals with a small change to the common law . and then , on 1d also , if i may—i do n't agree with this either . again , i believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children , but that should happen through the children 's rights convention , as part of a broader programme to promote children 's rights . lynne neagle am: thank you , siân . i call on the deputy minister to speak , then . julie morgan am: thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today . i just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the bill , and i absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the bill . i 'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee 's interest and the work that you 've done in this area of work . but i do think that these amendments are unnecessary . if we go through them , amendment 1a is really open-ended on promoting public awareness . we 're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from royal assent , and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign . all the points that you 've been making will be being considered by that group . i think the level of detail on the face of the bill is not needed . suzy davies am: okay . would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? a two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: six-year . suzy davies am: i thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force . julie morgan am: we 've got six years from royal assent . suzy davies am: oh , so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: yes . oh yes , it 's going to continue . suzy davies am: that 's very helpful . julie morgan am: definitely , yes . so , i do n't think that 's needed , amendment 1a . amendment 1b , about support available to parents and how to access it—again , this level of detail is not required on the face of the bill . i just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group , who are working on all aspects of this bill , many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee . the bill is a simple one , with a clear purpose . it aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment . i think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting , but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development , and they 're not required on the face of the bill . so , i 'm not putting them down , i 'm just saying that we do n't need them to be there on the face of the bill . and then amendment 1c—the information about how to raise concerns—i do repeat that safeguarding is everybody 's business , and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed . amendment 1d—ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now , children 's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making , and the entire bill is about protecting the rights of children . so , it is unnecessary duplication . so , we hope that the bill will remain focused . again , in terms of visitors , the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the bill . our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive . and then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised , revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of stage 3. so , there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment . the issue that was raised about the scottish bill , that it refers to 'understanding'—now , the scottish bill was not a government bill , it was a private member 's bill , and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding ' ; 'awareness ' is sufficient . so , basically , i think that the points made have been very useful , but i urge committee members to accept my amendments , but to reject those proposed by janet finch-saunders , as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 1 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1a ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection . i therefore take a vote by show of hands . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . all those in favour , please raise your hands . all those against . there voted two in favour , four against . so , amendment 1a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1b ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 1b be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1b . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 1b is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . all those in favour of amendment 1c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1c is not agreed . janet , do you want to move amendment 1d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1d be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , as there 's an objection , i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1d , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1d is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1e ? janet finch-saunders am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . the question is that amendment 1e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1e is not agreed . if amendment 1 is not agreed , amendment 2c and amendment 4 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . i move amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 1 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection , so we 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1. all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 1 is agreed . we 'll move on now then to group 2 , which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 , in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 2 in the deputy minister 's name , and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments , and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . the amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the bill , and i believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee , so you strongly influenced this amendment . it 's clear from members ' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment . i 've already provided assurance that i agree with the importance placed on such a review , both in the explanatory memorandum and during stage 1 scrutiny . i also made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . i have done this with amendment 2. amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after royal assent . as i said in my responses to the stage 1 committee report , and as set out in the explanatory memorandum , the post-implementation review of this bill will not be a single piece of work , but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. firstly , we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys , which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment . the surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign . secondly , through a dedicated task and finish group , we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the bill and to consider the possible impact on services . turning to amendment 2c , this amendment would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced . this amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what i think is a priority for the implementation of this bill : that is , given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders . i also think this amendment is not required because , as i 've already stated , we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising . in june , i shared the findings of a representative survey , which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation . i shared this with the committee . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . i open it up for discussion now , then . janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i speak to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment . again , i must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outline what we would expect to be within this report , and we would wish to see a commitment from the deputy minister to ensure the national assembly for wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report . amendment 2c requests that the welsh government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the assembly before section 1 commences . as i have outlined under my amendments in group 1 , the understanding of the public about the implications of the bill can not be sidelined . although the deputy minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign , we , as the national assembly for wales , must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins . as i noted under amendments 1b to 1e , there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the bill 's effect . i 'm sure that the deputy minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness . it is , therefore , important for the assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people . as will also be elaborated under amendment 2d , it is extremely important that we , as the parliament of wales , are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact . before we implement what will be a criminal offence , it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign 's effects before section 1 commences . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . deputy minister , first of all , can i just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2b ? i 'll come to that a little bit later , if i may . i just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you 'll be rejecting amendment 2c here . i actually do n't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all . it 's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that 's in the draft bill at the moment . so , failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well , rather than anything intrinsic in the bill , so i 'm not sure i can accept your argument on that . and , on 2d—very pleased to hear that you 'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying ' rather than 'publishing ' at stage 3 , but , in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature , perhaps i could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage , because it does n't make any difference . your amendment is going to pass , and this amendment to it would be—i think the gesture there would be very much appreciated . i 'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2a and 2b , but i want to begin , again , by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the bill on the issue of reporting , because i know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity ; you mentioned it earlier . but this is not a newid bychan , i 'm afraid , siân ; the terms and the effect of this bill are quite extensive , and it does need the reassurances , if you like , necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this bill on families where parents ' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute . it does need statutory underpinning . so , i am grateful to you for accepting this duty . i know that you 're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment , and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear . but , if this were me bringing forward this bill , i think i 'd want to show the world that i was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do . amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed . there are acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that . if you 're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change , and i think that is what you 're expecting—you know , showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment , reducing the number of , and indeed the likelihood of , parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—i really would have thought you 'd want people to know sooner , or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that . waiting five years , i think , will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years , and this is why i 'm grateful to you for your offer , because there may be a way where we can overcome that . if the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so , basically , in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that 's great , but there 's a possibility it 's going to reverse . again , i do n't think i 'd want to wait five years to find that out . for myself , i think one year would probably be enough , but i think three years is a reasonable compromise , as opposed to five years , for a reporting period . i think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a bill 's effectiveness . i ca n't see the reason for quite that length of time—i know you 've talked about new zealand—but neither can the constitutional and legislative affairs committee . i think that 's worth pointing out . when they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report , they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny . that 's something i think we perhaps need to bear in mind now , as we enter this period of the consolidation of law . five/seven years is really something of an outlier , and while that might have been appropriate , perhaps , in new zealand , i do n't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in wales , and , of course , there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years , and i note that you have n't drawn on them in order to support your argument . so , can i urge members and the minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? i do n't think it 's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point , hefin—that we not only wo n't hear in this assembly , we wo n't hear in the next assembly , about the formal evaluation of this , unless i follow— hefin david am: i wo n't intervene ; i 'll speak . suzy davies am: is that okay ? hefin david am: yes , i 'll make the point . lynne neagle am: okay , i 've got— suzy davies am: yes , i 'll take the intervention . lynne neagle am: no , he does n't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: i wo n't do an intervention ; i 'll speak . lynne neagle am: —he 'll make a contribution . suzy davies am: oh , apologies— hefin david am: just to say— suzy davies am: i 'll wait . hefin david am: well , let me put the intervention— . i 'll do it as an intervention , then . i just feel that—i take your point , and i was expecting it . the point i was making about 1d and 1e is they close down choices to ministers in future assemblies . an evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future parliaments more options with regard to this bill , so i think it 's entirely consistent . i do n't think the minister , in putting in amendment 2 , was trying to undermine my argument . actually , i think she 's being constructive by doing that , and i think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that 's quite helpful , and its consequence will be to open up choices to future parliaments , whereas my objection to 1d and 1e is they close those down . suzy davies am: okay , well , as i say , i think , actually , the deputy minister 's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this . because i 'm not 100 per cent sure i accept your argument , either , because it closes it down for the interim period if we do n't move on with the deputy minister 's suggestion—which i 'll talk about now , actually . because i am tempted to accept your offer . it absolutely makes sense and it 's clearly made with the best good faith here . but i need some clarity on what you would allow this assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report . because you 've been very clear that you do n't want to accept the things that janet finch-saunders has been talking about in a final report , and yet i can tell you we want to hear about these things . so , if you 're in a position where you can give a commitment at stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report , but that you will consult with , perhaps , this committee—i 'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report , what we would want to see tested , then i 'll be minded not to move amendment 2b . if you ca n't give me that reassurance , then i 'm going to move it anyway and we 'll return to it at stage 3 , if you do n't mind . just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable , and i do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to . again , at stage 3 , i 'm happy if you want to make three months six months , or something like that , but 'as soon as practicable ' is open ended , and what you think is practicable may be very different from what i or my constituents think is practicable . so , i do n't want to stick with what is practicable ; i would like you to put a date on this . if it 's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties , i think that 's fairly reasonable as well , but i 'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes , i welcome adding to the bill through amendment 2 , and what you 've said today also , that you 're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the bill , and to lay a report before the assembly . i am interested in what suzy is saying , and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods , and not say 'when it will be practicable ' . therefore , i would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the minister regarding these issues . suzy davies am: i would like to . thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . any other members ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: well , just to start off on that point , i think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss , i think i 'm very happy to accept that . so , i 'm happy to discuss that with you , and with the committee , before the third stage . so , i hope you will consider removing— . suzy davies am: no , genuinely i am . julie morgan am: right , thank you . well , just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised , on the issue of training now , i think janet raised a number of points about training , and we do have an operations , procedures , processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work , and they are considering guidance and training requirements . there are many professional bodies represented on that group , many of whom i think have given evidence here today , and they 've really got a chance to have their say . the officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at stage 3 , so there will be more information about training there . but we have this group looking at it , and it is very key . generally , i think that all the contributions are very helpful , and i know they 're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation . i ca n't support amendments 2a , 2c , and amendments 2e to 2k , because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the bill already , or they 're covered by the government amendments that i 've moved . but i do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough , multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services . now , tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points , so there 's no question there of having to wait ; we 'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes . suzy davies am: would you take an intervention there , deputy minister ? thank you very much . of course , i appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments , but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? so , even if this is not a statutory commitment , what exactly from our list , our wish list here , would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? julie morgan am: well , i would actually have thought all of them . all the areas you 've raised are very relevant , i think . obviously , this is not a statutory thing i 'm saying , but— suzy davies am: no , no , and this is not a— julie morgan am: yes , but considering those points you 've put forward , i think all of them have got a great deal of relevance . we will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you 've suggested and , in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group , which is about developing methods to collect data , we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you 've made on those issues . so , i do n't see any problem with that at all . suzy davies am: thank you . julie morgan am: so , as i say , i ca n't support the amendments . i 'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—i think one of yours and it was one of janet 's , was n't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage . because i am sympathetic to your views on these matters , and i think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well . so , i 'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at stage 3. in line with the recommendations of the finance committee , further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at stage 3. so , i think at this point i would ask that members reject the non-government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 , which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the bill , with the exception , obviously , of those two amendments , which i 'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 2 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2c is lost . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2a ? suzy davies am: i move amendment 2a , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2a , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: janet , do you wish to move amendment 2e ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2e is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2f ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2f be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2f ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2f is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2g ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2g be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , can i see all those in favour of amendment 2g ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2g is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2h ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2h be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2h ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2h is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2i ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2i be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . can i see all those in favour of amendment 2i ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2i is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2j ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2j be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . can i see all those in favour of 2j ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2j is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2k ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2k be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i 'll therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2k ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2k is not agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2b ? suzy davies am: in view of the deputy minister 's reassurances , i wo n't move this amendment today , but obviously i reserve the right to bring something back if we ca n't reach consensus . thank you . lynne neagle am: does any other member wish to move amendment 2b ? okay , no . thank you . we 'll move on , then . if amendment 2 is not agreed , amendment 5 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 2 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 2— suzy davies am: objection . lynne neagle am: you 're objecting ? suzy davies am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . right , we 'll therefore take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 2 is agreed . that takes us on to group 3 , which relates to the regulation-making powers in the bill . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 3 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . members will note that i 've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the bill , which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment . and that is going to be debated under group 5. so , we 're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here , basically . as a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a welsh minister to make an order for commencement , the power to make transitory , transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the bill coming into force would also be removed . so , i 'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the bill ; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it , and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after royal assent . in fact , removing the power for the welsh ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended . these amendments are technical in nature and while i acknowledge that the constitutional and legislative affairs committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied , their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied . the absence of an assembly procedure does not mean that ministers ' decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the assembly . any concerns about the welsh ministers ' proposals could be put to me in the senedd . this was a point made to clac and , as i say , their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power . for those reasons , i encourage members to reject amendment 3a from suzy . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . well perhaps , deputy minister , i can begin by saying that one person 's technical issue is another person 's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny . but i thank you for noting the assembly 's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this bill—this time by clac , as you say . moving this—and i 'm glad actually that amendment 8 , i think it was , has removed an order provision and we 're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here . i have to say that amendment 3a is something of a probing amendment , and i 'll explain why now . your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 , but it 's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it 's not a separate commencement power . and , actually , i 've been listening to the rest of this debate , and thinking that , if you 're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report , the chances are you 're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas , i think . and i 'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory , transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this bill . i 'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented , bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original , very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft . as i say , in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 i tabled this , in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 , when it comes into effect , onto the floor of the assembly . because while i completely accept that you 've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on , it 's still possible to do that without procedure , and so i have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure . amendment 3a is a holding position , which we will return to you in stage 3 , because i think , again , this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you 're looking for , because i think you probably need something that 's beyond transitional , transitory and saving . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , have you finished ? suzy davies am: yes , thank you very much . lynne neagle am: are there any other members who wish to speak on this group ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: i thank suzy for that input . we do n't actually think it 's necessary to have wider powers , but we will keep this under review and at stage 3 , i think that— . when i was looking at this , i was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage , but i can understand that there may be links to other bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers . so , basically , i do n't think it is necessary to have wider powers , but i can assure you that we 'll keep that in review coming up to stage 3 . suzy davies am: can i just ask a question on the back of that ? lynne neagle am: will you take a brief intervention at the end , minister ? suzy davies am: will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? julie morgan am: i was going to end there , yes . suzy davies am: right , okay , well , just before your full stop , would you just confirm that you 're happy for us to discuss this before stage 3 ? julie morgan am: yes , very happy . yes . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . before disposing of amendment 3 , we will deal with the amendment to that amendment . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 3a ? suzy davies am: i 'll move it , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 3a . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 3a is not agreed . if amendment 3 is not agreed , amendment 6 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 3 is therefore agreed . the committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. can i welcome members back ? we will move on to group 4 , which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of janet finch-saunders . i call on janet finch-saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i speak to both amendments in this group . as i outlined under amendments 2i and 2j , there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment . now , it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic . as i have mentioned previously , these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services . furthermore , the welsh local government association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are , those costs are met , because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . now , during evidence , the deputy minister , when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate . ' but you could n't commit to a broad figure , instead telling us that : 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us . ' and : 'we have to measure it as we go along . ' given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes , we only think it is fair for the welsh government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this bill . now , while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards , i note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by welsh government . anticipating the deputy minister 's response that few under this category , if any at all , would be affected by the bill , we are pursuing a principle here , and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the deputy minister . now , these are just two examples of welsh government legislation to date that have been underfunded . the active travel ( wales ) act 2013 : last year , the economy , infrastructure and skills committee found that the wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of england 's and one sixth of holland 's . furthermore , the committee highlighted that the passing of the act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes , but were constrained by the funding made available to them . the minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million . now , my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel act to become a meaningful piece of legislation , and the same goes with the well-being of future generations ( wales ) act 2015. this month , the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding . outside of the welsh government 's regional grant that can not be spent on projects , councils often contribute through officer time or facilities , but resources and capacity to support those psbs remain a key risk , as partners do n't have the capacity to take on more . the reason that i wanted these amendments placed in here is i genuinely do not believe that you 've even envisioned what , or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations , and certainly our local authorities and health boards , the impact this bill is going to have . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . are there other members who would like to speak in this group , please ? no . okay . i call the deputy minister , then . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i can understand that the member is concerned about the impact of this bill on public services , but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the bill that we 've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this bill before introduction . and as far as we 're aware , no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation , and also comprehensively prepared for implementation . we 've explored the published data , which is available from other countries , on the impact of measures they 've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children . we 've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in ireland , new zealand and malta , who have legal systems similar to our own . and in these countries , there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform . and stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs , and i think we should trust their judgment on this . in fact , as this committee notes in its stage 1 report , those delivering services on the front line have said , without exception , that 'this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in wales because it will make the law clear . ' sally jenkins of the association of directors of social services said to this committee : 'in terms of thresholds for children ’ s services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that ’ s likely to happen . ' that 's from the front line . jane randall , chair of the national independent safeguarding board wales , said : 'there 's no expectation that there 's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services , i think it would be dealt with within their existing resources . ' and dr rowena christmas , royal college of general practitioners , said : ' i ca n't see it 's going to lengthen consultations . i ca n't see that it 's going to increase the number of consultations , and i do n't think it 's going to increase the number of referrals i make to the health visitor or to social services , because if i was worried , i 'd make those referrals now regardless of the bill . ' i just want to say again that the bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault , which has formed part of the common law of england and wales for a very long time . and social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted , including from health and education , so it 's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them . i do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points . as i 've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments , we 're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services , and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation . welsh government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications . i can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued , and i 've asked officials to prepare a revised ria , as recommended at stage 2 , and i expect to share an updated ria with you in advance of stage 3. serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the bill , but i think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given , particularly to this committee , from the professionals at the front line . what the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within government , and it 's not clear why , in the context of the evidence heard at stage i , such provisions are necessary . i 'm sure that members will agree that future governments need to be able to consider , within the context of the budget-setting process , what the priorities are , and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time , for example taking into account any issues that there are—uk government actions , what happens in relation to brexit , or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or welsh society . all those issues would have to be taken into account . furthermore , as is the case now , the national assembly for wales scrutinises the welsh government budget annually , so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies , should it consider that this is required . i do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding , so i urge members to reject these amendments , which i believe are unnecessary . janet finch-saunders am: chair , could i ask a question ? lynne neagle am: you can reply to the debate now , janet , yes . janet finch-saunders am: i 'd like to ask a question of the deputy minister . when we were taking evidence , at an earlier stage , i noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across wales . now , we have 22 local authorities . at that time , the numbers mentioned were quite small—i think only a handful . what discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead , the cabinet members , or , indeed , the head of service ? i can speak from my own experiences , when going around my constituency , but when i 've spoken to some of the family support groups , and , indeed , the departments themselves , they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision . they 're already overstretched , and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden . so , how much have you engaged with them ? julie morgan am: there 's been extensive engagement . we 've had meetings with the association of directors of social services , and they 're represented on all our groups , and we 're working very closely with them , because , of course , they represent all the local authorities . but i have to say , when i 've been going round and meeting lots of different groups , the first thing they say is , ' i 'm so glad that you 're doing this ' , and they have n't mentioned any financial implications . but , obviously , we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up . janet finch-saunders am: okay . so , i 'll still move my amendments . i 'm disappointed , really . i was hoping to see some commitment to—this bill was going to go through , and it 's one that could be implemented fully , because sufficient resources were there . i 'm not convinced about that , and i know that other organisations are not also . so , i move my amendments . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 11 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 11 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 12 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] all those in favour of amendment 12. all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 12 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . i move amendment 4 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 4 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 4 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 4 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 5 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 5 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 5 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 5 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 6 , then , in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 6 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 6 is therefore agreed . this takes us , then , to the fifth and final group , which relates to commencement . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of suzy davies . and i call suzy davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing , but it 's the lead amendment in the group , so i 'll move it to begin the debate . minister , i 'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically . you 've said repeatedly , and i believe you , that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children . you could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement , but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law , where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted , but liability to prosecution , not just liability to civil sanctions . i 'm sure you 'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted , but that decision does not and can not lie with you . you , like us , have no agency in this , because the powers and the duties of the police and the crown prosecution service sit outside our competence . you can not and we can not , by law or otherwise , instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents . you 've acknowledged to this committee and the constitutional and legislative affairs committee that revised cps charging guidance and any other guidance on , for example , out-of-court disposals , are key to delivering your policy objectives . you 'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group , is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like . so , you 're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force , the frequency of the offence , any prior conviction , any prior reporting , not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced , or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals ; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest , let alone charging . and you argue that the rights of the child are what matter , and i agree with you here , but everybody , adult or child , has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure , and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage . now , clac recommended that any revised guidance be made available to ams before stage 3. i anticipate that that 's unlikely , and i hope i 'm wrong , but that 's why janet and i have tabled amendments 10 and 15 , which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that cps guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed . that reflects our recommendation 4 , this committee 's recommendation , as well as clac 's recommendation 1. it gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment , even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded . and you have not addressed these in your own amendments . i have to say , minister , i think these points are so serious that i would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking royal assent for this bill until the assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and cps . i 'd have sought a report stage , if i could , so that we could consider that evidence . but i 'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled , 10 and 15 , so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately can not control once this bill has passed . now , i know you 've got the numbers to pass this bill , whether you accept amendments or not , but i just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a bill that changes a person 's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that , and you 're inviting this assembly to fall into the same trap . i therefore urge the assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . are there other members who wish to speak ? no . janet , do you want to speak ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , i wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. amendment 14 , however , is consequential to amendment 16 passing . amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the welsh government . as was clear during the committee 's evidence sessions , present welsh government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage . for example , the capacity and reach of the healthy child wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising , with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved , with 53.2 per cent of children in wales reported as being contacted . furthermore , existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas , such as flying start , and even the children 's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children . now , the deputy minister mentioned the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents . however , the deputy minister was challenged on this fact , that this is an online campaign only , and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake . consequently , it should be remembered that this bill will affect all parents . therefore , the deputy minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . deputy minister . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i 've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during stage 1. as a result , i have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law . my amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the bill by order of the welsh ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after royal assent . that was done to give certainty on the length of time . up to then , we 'd always said 'up to two years'—well , we 're giving two years . this certainty will allow key partners , including the police , social services and the crown prosecution service , to plan for changes to guidance , training and data-collection systems more effectively . it 'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign . my amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision , which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6 , and we discussed those in the previous group . i 've listened to the arguments put forward by suzy davies and janet finch-saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled . these amendments are all about making the commencement of the bill conditional on something else happening , whether it 's waiting for the revision of crown prosecution service guidance , or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system , or for the provision of parenting support services . and , really , i do n't think that we should be going down that road . as i set out in my letter of response to the stage 1 report from the constitutional and legislative affairs committee , we 've got good working relations with the cps through the strategic implementation group , and we work very closely with them . but the cps are an independent body , as suzy davies has said in her contribution , not answerable to welsh ministers or this legislature , and it 's not appropriate for a minister or the national assembly to seek to influence the cps guidelines . we 're discussing the issues with the cps in the implementation group . and , in fact , i think that these amendments—suzy 's amendments in particular—would n't just seek to influence the cps , but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in wales . so , i do n't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided . i think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship , very close working relationship . and i know they did give evidence to your committee , i believe , the cps . and i think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence , or not , assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty , i think , if we did go down that track , because i think this is very important welsh legislation , which does have broad support across the assembly . and i do n't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation . so , i do n't support those amendments . i think the cps is entirely independent of government , and must be entirely independent of government , and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance . in addition , you suggest we allow the uk government to have a say in when welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the assembly . the test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain . if these amendments passed , it would be very difficult , if not impossible , to judge when section 1 could be commenced . this contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for , and raises huge uncertainty , which potentially jeopardises the bill . and i want to assure you again , not only do we have good working relations with the cps , but also very good working relationships with the police , who are , of course , the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues . the work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the bill 's commencement . in fact , it 's the other way round . my amendment to provide a two-year period between royal assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force . and then , when it comes to parenting support , the committee knows that i 've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support , and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue . i have already said i will expand the age range of the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign , and i think— . i know janet finch-saunders has made the point that it is an online facility . it is very widely used . it is a very successful tool . but , of course , the universal services are also there . for example , the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial , and that is a service that is for every child . and , of course , the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly . and the expert group is considering what it 'll recommend for the future , and it needs the time to be able to do that , to support the bill as well as to support parenting more widely . so , as i said , i think these are important points that you have raised , but i do n't think they are appropriate . so , i therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10 , nor 13 , 14 and 15 . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy to reply to the debate . suzy davies am: thank you very much , and thank you very much , deputy minister , as well . i 'm disappointed that you have n't seen what 's behind janet finch-saunders 's final amendment there , actually . maybe it 's something we 'll raise again with you at stage 3 , or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then . but i want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that i 've raised and your assertion that we 're giving , or attempting to give , power to the cps here . we are not . this amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area . and this is why i go back to where my contribution to this started , and it 's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or , sorry , to try and protect children 's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence . this bill—and , actually , you 've said a couple of times in your response today that it 's important that it 's commenced on a certain date . my argument is : it should n't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence . and , while i claim no mischief on the part of the cps or the police—obviously i don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the cps , should they wish to do it , or indeed the police with their own guidelines , putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence . and , because of that , i ask you to consider , or balance , actually , two important things here : one is the rights of the child , obviously at the forefront of your argument on this , which i would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion ; and , actually , the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you can not allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing . the relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family , but that 's something you ought to protect in what you 're trying to do here , and by leaving it open , as you say , to completely different—sorry , undevolved , two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me . i know this is n't going to stop your bill going forward , but i really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at stage 3 , because leaving , effectively , the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control , despite your great relationship with them , should worry us all as a legislature . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , suzy . do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9 ? suzy davies am: oh , because of the voting order— . yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 9 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 9 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 9 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 13 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 13 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 13 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 13 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 14 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 14 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 14 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 14 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 7 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 7 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 7 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against . amendment 7 is agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 10 ? suzy davies am: yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 10 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 10 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 10 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 15 ? janet finch-saunders am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 15 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 15 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 15 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 16 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 16 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 16 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 16 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 8 , then , in the name of the minister . the question is that amendment 8 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 8 is therefore agreed . well , that has brought us to the end of our amendments , so can i thank the deputy minister and her officials for their attendance ? as usual , you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy . this completes stage 2 proceedings . stage 3 begins tomorrow , and the relevant date of stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course . standing orders make provision for the deputy minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum , taking account of the amendments agreed today . the revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before stage 3 proceedings . thank you very much . julie morgan am: thank you all very much . lynne neagle am: okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the deputy minister for health and social services , following our meeting on 2 october . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services updating the committee on the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' strategy . and paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the deputy minister for health and social services regarding early childhood education and care , following the session that we held on 2 october . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

this was a children , young people and education committee , and the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defense of reasonable punishment ) bill . this meeting followed a certain order to dispose of all amendments . it went through amendments in group 1 that related to the duty to promote public awareness , amendments in group 2 that related to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation , amendments in group 3 that related to the regulation-making powers in the bill , amendments in group 4 that related to the duty to ensure sufficient funding , and finally amendments in group 5 that related to commencement . at the end of each section , they took a vote to decide whether certain amendments should be rejected or accepted .

what did the group discuss about amendments in group 1 that related to the duty to promote public awareness ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask if there are any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill : stage 2 proceedings . i 'm pleased to welcome julie morgan am , deputy minister for health and social services ; karen cornish , deputy director , children and families division at welsh government ; and emma gammon , lawyer for welsh government . thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee . i 'm just going to run through the procedures that we 're going to follow now . as i said , the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . for these proceedings , members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments , the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments . the marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled , marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the bill . the order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is , sections 1 to 3 and the long title . you will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate . however , the order in which they 're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list . members will , therefore , need to follow the two papers , although i will advise members when i call them whether they 're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision . there will be one debate on each group of amendments . members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way . i will call the deputy minister to speak on each group . for the record , in accordance with the convention agreed by the business committee , as chair i will move amendments in the name of the deputy minister . for expediency , i will assume that the deputy minister wishes me to move all of her amendments , and i will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list . deputy minister , if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved , please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings . in line with our usual practice , legal advisers to the committee and the deputy minister are not expected to provide advice on the record . if members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings , please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and , if necessary , we can adjourn . my intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today 's meeting . i will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time , if necessary . okay , thank you . so , we will proceed , then , to group 1 , which is the duty to promote public awareness . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 1 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . my amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the act commences . i tabled these amendments in response to this committee 's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the stage 1 report , so i have responded to that . i 've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from royal assent , should the bill be passed . i 've considered amendments 1a to 1e , which have been tabled by janet finch-saunders , and which relate to the duty to raise awareness . amendment 1a introduces a reference to public understanding . we do n't think , actually , that this adds anything to the government amendment , which already mentions awareness . it makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit , which is not necessary . by commencement , messaging around the change in the law will be embedded . the awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years . therefore , an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required . i understand , of course , that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive , well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change , and understand how to respond to it . but i do n't think it 's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups , such as visitors to wales , on the face of the bill—that 's the approach taken in amendment 1e—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others . in relation to children , the committee will know that i 'm fully committed to children ’ s rights , and that welsh ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions . an additional due regard requirement , such as the one set out in amendment 1d , relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed . this would be part and parcel of the welsh government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making . similarly , i do n't think it 's necessary for the bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign , as is suggested in amendments 1b and 1c . that level of detail , i do n't think , is for the face of the bill . information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group , under the auspices of the bill ’ s strategic implementation group , working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign . and , really , their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the bill . i think we always need to bear in mind that what the bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence ; it does not create a new offence . and in this context , it does n't make sense for this bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished . as i set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point , safeguarding is everyone ’ s business , and , as now , the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child . i 'm asking for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and i ask members to reject amendments 1a to 1e because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . are there other members who wish to speak ? janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i wish to speak to amendments 1a to 1e , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness . while we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law , the deputy minister 's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. an important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that i 've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign , which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the bill , but serves as a duty for future administrations . amendment 1a : primarily , amendment 1a changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . i do n't think it 's enough for the welsh government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the welsh government 's objectives have been achieved . despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour , the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors . instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence , this law will remove a defence for parents , information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives , potentially separate parents , and could affect employment chances . as such , whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign , it is important too that the welsh government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign . the witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: janet , dawn is asking if you 'll take an intervention . janet finch-saunders am: yes . dawn bowden am: i just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there 's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it 's been passed ? janet finch-saunders am: there 's a lot of legislation . the first assembly term when i was here— dawn bowden am: yes , what i 'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: i 'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: what i 'm asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? janet finch-saunders am: the very first term that i was an assembly member , we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation . even today , as i sit here , the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation . this particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in wales . so , therefore , i think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved , and i shall speak now— dawn bowden am: with respect , chair , that 's not the question i asked . janet finch-saunders am: —to my amendments . lynne neagle am: i can call you in the debate , if you 'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this . yes . janet finch-saunders am: the witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications . and that 's what we 're talking about here , members—the implications of removing this defence . strikingly , the office of police and crime commissioner for gwent stated the following : 'the potential for public resistance to the bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation . ' if you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment , it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this bill . additionally , the committee found that while the current welsh government 's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt , future governments may have less of a commitment . this places further weight on the fact that the welsh government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the bill beyond its commencement . furthermore , the children ( equal protection from assault ) ( scotland ) bill quite clearly notes that , under section 2 , the scottish ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister can respond as to the reasons why the welsh government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment . [ interruption . ] should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: are you taking an intervention ? janet finch-saunders am: no . i 'd rather crack on , to be honest . lynne neagle am: okay . i can call you in the debate , hefin . janet finch-saunders am: should our amendment to be agreed , we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. amendment 1b : amendment 1b is in line with the committee 's recommendation 9 , which stated that , as part of a public awareness campaign , there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children . during evidence at stage 1 , the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence . for example , children in wales , action for children and play wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support . welsh government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need . now , while the deputy minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information , a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future welsh governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign . i note the deputy minister accepted the recommendation , through our amendment , but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents . as will be expanded upon later , the deputy minister has relied upon the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising . however , this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups . amendment 1c : amendment 1c supports the committee 's recommendation 15 that explains that the welsh government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted . we urged , at stage 1 , that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment , regardless of the bill , other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded . in particular , some were worried that children , who may not realise the implications of reporting , could make allegations that are actually untrue . while we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations , this could also be reflected among adults , if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault . lynne neagle am: thank you . i 've got several speakers . i 've got suzy davies first , then dawn bowden . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . thank you minister , and thank you , janet , for that . i think it 's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by janet there are based on committee recommendations , and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large , but also you as well . so , that suggests that , at that stage , we were n't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report . now , i recognise that you 've moved some way on some of these amendments , and we 'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups . but the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation , now—that means that this is the instrument of the assembly , not of government , and if this assembly feels that the face of the bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign , then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign . the list that janet has given is a minimum . the reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be , so it will be disappointing to hear that you 're rejecting them all , and the reason they need to go on the face of the bill is that , if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation , at the moment we have no reassurance about how you 're going to do that—about what input the assembly , on behalf of our constituents , could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign . unless you accept some amendments in other groups , that is the position with this bill : the influence of the assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign . in terms of it being non-time limited , i think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting , never-ending campaign of awareness raising . but if you bear in mind that , seven years after the introduction of this bill , there 's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the bill , what is the point of doing that if you do n't then have an obligation , should the reports require it to be necessary , to continue promoting the changes in the law ? i accept that that ca n't go on for centuries , but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive , and which has a reach beyond our boundaries , i think is genuinely a mistake . finally , you mention that safeguarding is everyone 's business . i think that 's true , but i think janet finch-saunders was right to say that members of the public , ordinary individuals , not professionals , will need assurance that they 're doing the right thing . the amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that , although that can be read in that way , but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing . if this is going to be up to the individual , as you 've said , and the committee itself was n't reassured that individuals would know what to do , perhaps i can ask you to consider at stage 3 , if you 're going to reject this amendment , how you can reassure members of the public that , if they are going to intervene on the back of this law , they 're making things better , not worse . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . dawn . dawn bowden am: my comments , really , relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns , which i think all of us would want to see , and would appreciate in any changes in legislation . my point , really , is that we have a plethora of legislation that this assembly has passed in the last 20 years , and i 'm not aware of any legislation where , on the face of the bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis . it seems to me that , for some reason , you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation . from what the deputy minister is saying—and perhaps i will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign . that awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it . it could also , i assume , deputy minister , be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use . but the point i 'm trying to make is that i do n't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns , and particularly in relation to visitors to wales . again , we have other pieces of legislation in wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the uk . i am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do n't . and similarly , when we go to visit countries that have different legislation , we do n't necessarily know what legislation we 're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws . so , my key point , chair , is just the necessity of an ongoing , endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , dawn . hefin . hefin david am: my comments follow logically from dawn bowden 's comments , particularly in relation to amendments 1d and 1e . what you would be doing is that this senedd , if this was on the face of the bill , the duty on ministers , would be putting the duty on ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth senedd , into the next senedd term , and putting that duty on those newly elected ministers after that , which , in principle , would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: hefin , are you taking an intervention from suzy ? hefin david am: yes , happy to . suzy davies am: when you 've finished your point . hefin david am: i 'm happy to take it now , because i was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made , actually . suzy davies am: i 'd love that . you referred to this potentially binding ministers in future assemblies ; at the moment , we 've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this act into the assembly after next . i 'm wondering if you 're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on . hefin david am: well , when we get to that amendment , i 'll make comments if i feel it necessary . but at this point in time , we 're talking about amendments 1d and 1e , and particularly in relation to 1d and 1e it just is n't necessary , given the fact that—i wo n't call it a concession , because i think you made a reasonable point about the minister making a statement at stage 3 , and i think dawn bowden actually supported that as well . that , therefore , makes those amendments unnecessary . given that , in these circumstances , it is unnecessary to bind ministers in future parliaments . and that 's my key point , really , which is why i would n't vote for those two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you . siân . sian gwenllian am: thank you very much . i just want to speak against amendment 1a and also amendment 1b . i do n't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign , as is outlined in 1a . i agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change , and therefore i 'm very glad to see that the government has brought forward amendment 1 , and i do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change . in terms of amendment 1b , i do have sympathy with what is being said here , but i believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the government , through various programmes , and it should not be an addition on the face of this bill , which deals with a small change to the common law . and then , on 1d also , if i may—i do n't agree with this either . again , i believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children , but that should happen through the children 's rights convention , as part of a broader programme to promote children 's rights . lynne neagle am: thank you , siân . i call on the deputy minister to speak , then . julie morgan am: thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today . i just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the bill , and i absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the bill . i 'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee 's interest and the work that you 've done in this area of work . but i do think that these amendments are unnecessary . if we go through them , amendment 1a is really open-ended on promoting public awareness . we 're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from royal assent , and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign . all the points that you 've been making will be being considered by that group . i think the level of detail on the face of the bill is not needed . suzy davies am: okay . would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? a two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: six-year . suzy davies am: i thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force . julie morgan am: we 've got six years from royal assent . suzy davies am: oh , so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: yes . oh yes , it 's going to continue . suzy davies am: that 's very helpful . julie morgan am: definitely , yes . so , i do n't think that 's needed , amendment 1a . amendment 1b , about support available to parents and how to access it—again , this level of detail is not required on the face of the bill . i just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group , who are working on all aspects of this bill , many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee . the bill is a simple one , with a clear purpose . it aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment . i think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting , but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development , and they 're not required on the face of the bill . so , i 'm not putting them down , i 'm just saying that we do n't need them to be there on the face of the bill . and then amendment 1c—the information about how to raise concerns—i do repeat that safeguarding is everybody 's business , and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed . amendment 1d—ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now , children 's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making , and the entire bill is about protecting the rights of children . so , it is unnecessary duplication . so , we hope that the bill will remain focused . again , in terms of visitors , the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the bill . our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive . and then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised , revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of stage 3. so , there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment . the issue that was raised about the scottish bill , that it refers to 'understanding'—now , the scottish bill was not a government bill , it was a private member 's bill , and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding ' ; 'awareness ' is sufficient . so , basically , i think that the points made have been very useful , but i urge committee members to accept my amendments , but to reject those proposed by janet finch-saunders , as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 1 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1a ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection . i therefore take a vote by show of hands . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . all those in favour , please raise your hands . all those against . there voted two in favour , four against . so , amendment 1a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1b ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 1b be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1b . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 1b is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . all those in favour of amendment 1c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1c is not agreed . janet , do you want to move amendment 1d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1d be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , as there 's an objection , i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1d , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1d is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1e ? janet finch-saunders am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . the question is that amendment 1e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1e is not agreed . if amendment 1 is not agreed , amendment 2c and amendment 4 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . i move amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 1 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection , so we 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1. all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 1 is agreed . we 'll move on now then to group 2 , which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 , in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 2 in the deputy minister 's name , and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments , and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . the amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the bill , and i believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee , so you strongly influenced this amendment . it 's clear from members ' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment . i 've already provided assurance that i agree with the importance placed on such a review , both in the explanatory memorandum and during stage 1 scrutiny . i also made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . i have done this with amendment 2. amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after royal assent . as i said in my responses to the stage 1 committee report , and as set out in the explanatory memorandum , the post-implementation review of this bill will not be a single piece of work , but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. firstly , we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys , which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment . the surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign . secondly , through a dedicated task and finish group , we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the bill and to consider the possible impact on services . turning to amendment 2c , this amendment would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced . this amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what i think is a priority for the implementation of this bill : that is , given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders . i also think this amendment is not required because , as i 've already stated , we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising . in june , i shared the findings of a representative survey , which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation . i shared this with the committee . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . i open it up for discussion now , then . janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i speak to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment . again , i must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outline what we would expect to be within this report , and we would wish to see a commitment from the deputy minister to ensure the national assembly for wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report . amendment 2c requests that the welsh government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the assembly before section 1 commences . as i have outlined under my amendments in group 1 , the understanding of the public about the implications of the bill can not be sidelined . although the deputy minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign , we , as the national assembly for wales , must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins . as i noted under amendments 1b to 1e , there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the bill 's effect . i 'm sure that the deputy minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness . it is , therefore , important for the assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people . as will also be elaborated under amendment 2d , it is extremely important that we , as the parliament of wales , are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact . before we implement what will be a criminal offence , it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign 's effects before section 1 commences . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . deputy minister , first of all , can i just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2b ? i 'll come to that a little bit later , if i may . i just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you 'll be rejecting amendment 2c here . i actually do n't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all . it 's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that 's in the draft bill at the moment . so , failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well , rather than anything intrinsic in the bill , so i 'm not sure i can accept your argument on that . and , on 2d—very pleased to hear that you 'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying ' rather than 'publishing ' at stage 3 , but , in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature , perhaps i could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage , because it does n't make any difference . your amendment is going to pass , and this amendment to it would be—i think the gesture there would be very much appreciated . i 'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2a and 2b , but i want to begin , again , by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the bill on the issue of reporting , because i know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity ; you mentioned it earlier . but this is not a newid bychan , i 'm afraid , siân ; the terms and the effect of this bill are quite extensive , and it does need the reassurances , if you like , necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this bill on families where parents ' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute . it does need statutory underpinning . so , i am grateful to you for accepting this duty . i know that you 're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment , and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear . but , if this were me bringing forward this bill , i think i 'd want to show the world that i was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do . amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed . there are acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that . if you 're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change , and i think that is what you 're expecting—you know , showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment , reducing the number of , and indeed the likelihood of , parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—i really would have thought you 'd want people to know sooner , or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that . waiting five years , i think , will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years , and this is why i 'm grateful to you for your offer , because there may be a way where we can overcome that . if the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so , basically , in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that 's great , but there 's a possibility it 's going to reverse . again , i do n't think i 'd want to wait five years to find that out . for myself , i think one year would probably be enough , but i think three years is a reasonable compromise , as opposed to five years , for a reporting period . i think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a bill 's effectiveness . i ca n't see the reason for quite that length of time—i know you 've talked about new zealand—but neither can the constitutional and legislative affairs committee . i think that 's worth pointing out . when they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report , they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny . that 's something i think we perhaps need to bear in mind now , as we enter this period of the consolidation of law . five/seven years is really something of an outlier , and while that might have been appropriate , perhaps , in new zealand , i do n't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in wales , and , of course , there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years , and i note that you have n't drawn on them in order to support your argument . so , can i urge members and the minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? i do n't think it 's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point , hefin—that we not only wo n't hear in this assembly , we wo n't hear in the next assembly , about the formal evaluation of this , unless i follow— hefin david am: i wo n't intervene ; i 'll speak . suzy davies am: is that okay ? hefin david am: yes , i 'll make the point . lynne neagle am: okay , i 've got— suzy davies am: yes , i 'll take the intervention . lynne neagle am: no , he does n't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: i wo n't do an intervention ; i 'll speak . lynne neagle am: —he 'll make a contribution . suzy davies am: oh , apologies— hefin david am: just to say— suzy davies am: i 'll wait . hefin david am: well , let me put the intervention— . i 'll do it as an intervention , then . i just feel that—i take your point , and i was expecting it . the point i was making about 1d and 1e is they close down choices to ministers in future assemblies . an evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future parliaments more options with regard to this bill , so i think it 's entirely consistent . i do n't think the minister , in putting in amendment 2 , was trying to undermine my argument . actually , i think she 's being constructive by doing that , and i think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that 's quite helpful , and its consequence will be to open up choices to future parliaments , whereas my objection to 1d and 1e is they close those down . suzy davies am: okay , well , as i say , i think , actually , the deputy minister 's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this . because i 'm not 100 per cent sure i accept your argument , either , because it closes it down for the interim period if we do n't move on with the deputy minister 's suggestion—which i 'll talk about now , actually . because i am tempted to accept your offer . it absolutely makes sense and it 's clearly made with the best good faith here . but i need some clarity on what you would allow this assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report . because you 've been very clear that you do n't want to accept the things that janet finch-saunders has been talking about in a final report , and yet i can tell you we want to hear about these things . so , if you 're in a position where you can give a commitment at stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report , but that you will consult with , perhaps , this committee—i 'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report , what we would want to see tested , then i 'll be minded not to move amendment 2b . if you ca n't give me that reassurance , then i 'm going to move it anyway and we 'll return to it at stage 3 , if you do n't mind . just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable , and i do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to . again , at stage 3 , i 'm happy if you want to make three months six months , or something like that , but 'as soon as practicable ' is open ended , and what you think is practicable may be very different from what i or my constituents think is practicable . so , i do n't want to stick with what is practicable ; i would like you to put a date on this . if it 's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties , i think that 's fairly reasonable as well , but i 'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes , i welcome adding to the bill through amendment 2 , and what you 've said today also , that you 're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the bill , and to lay a report before the assembly . i am interested in what suzy is saying , and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods , and not say 'when it will be practicable ' . therefore , i would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the minister regarding these issues . suzy davies am: i would like to . thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . any other members ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: well , just to start off on that point , i think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss , i think i 'm very happy to accept that . so , i 'm happy to discuss that with you , and with the committee , before the third stage . so , i hope you will consider removing— . suzy davies am: no , genuinely i am . julie morgan am: right , thank you . well , just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised , on the issue of training now , i think janet raised a number of points about training , and we do have an operations , procedures , processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work , and they are considering guidance and training requirements . there are many professional bodies represented on that group , many of whom i think have given evidence here today , and they 've really got a chance to have their say . the officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at stage 3 , so there will be more information about training there . but we have this group looking at it , and it is very key . generally , i think that all the contributions are very helpful , and i know they 're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation . i ca n't support amendments 2a , 2c , and amendments 2e to 2k , because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the bill already , or they 're covered by the government amendments that i 've moved . but i do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough , multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services . now , tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points , so there 's no question there of having to wait ; we 'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes . suzy davies am: would you take an intervention there , deputy minister ? thank you very much . of course , i appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments , but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? so , even if this is not a statutory commitment , what exactly from our list , our wish list here , would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? julie morgan am: well , i would actually have thought all of them . all the areas you 've raised are very relevant , i think . obviously , this is not a statutory thing i 'm saying , but— suzy davies am: no , no , and this is not a— julie morgan am: yes , but considering those points you 've put forward , i think all of them have got a great deal of relevance . we will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you 've suggested and , in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group , which is about developing methods to collect data , we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you 've made on those issues . so , i do n't see any problem with that at all . suzy davies am: thank you . julie morgan am: so , as i say , i ca n't support the amendments . i 'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—i think one of yours and it was one of janet 's , was n't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage . because i am sympathetic to your views on these matters , and i think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well . so , i 'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at stage 3. in line with the recommendations of the finance committee , further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at stage 3. so , i think at this point i would ask that members reject the non-government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 , which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the bill , with the exception , obviously , of those two amendments , which i 'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 2 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2c is lost . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2a ? suzy davies am: i move amendment 2a , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2a , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: janet , do you wish to move amendment 2e ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2e is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2f ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2f be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2f ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2f is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2g ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2g be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , can i see all those in favour of amendment 2g ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2g is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2h ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2h be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2h ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2h is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2i ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2i be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . can i see all those in favour of amendment 2i ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2i is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2j ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2j be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . can i see all those in favour of 2j ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2j is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2k ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2k be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i 'll therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2k ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2k is not agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2b ? suzy davies am: in view of the deputy minister 's reassurances , i wo n't move this amendment today , but obviously i reserve the right to bring something back if we ca n't reach consensus . thank you . lynne neagle am: does any other member wish to move amendment 2b ? okay , no . thank you . we 'll move on , then . if amendment 2 is not agreed , amendment 5 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 2 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 2— suzy davies am: objection . lynne neagle am: you 're objecting ? suzy davies am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . right , we 'll therefore take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 2 is agreed . that takes us on to group 3 , which relates to the regulation-making powers in the bill . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 3 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . members will note that i 've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the bill , which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment . and that is going to be debated under group 5. so , we 're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here , basically . as a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a welsh minister to make an order for commencement , the power to make transitory , transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the bill coming into force would also be removed . so , i 'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the bill ; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it , and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after royal assent . in fact , removing the power for the welsh ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended . these amendments are technical in nature and while i acknowledge that the constitutional and legislative affairs committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied , their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied . the absence of an assembly procedure does not mean that ministers ' decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the assembly . any concerns about the welsh ministers ' proposals could be put to me in the senedd . this was a point made to clac and , as i say , their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power . for those reasons , i encourage members to reject amendment 3a from suzy . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . well perhaps , deputy minister , i can begin by saying that one person 's technical issue is another person 's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny . but i thank you for noting the assembly 's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this bill—this time by clac , as you say . moving this—and i 'm glad actually that amendment 8 , i think it was , has removed an order provision and we 're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here . i have to say that amendment 3a is something of a probing amendment , and i 'll explain why now . your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 , but it 's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it 's not a separate commencement power . and , actually , i 've been listening to the rest of this debate , and thinking that , if you 're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report , the chances are you 're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas , i think . and i 'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory , transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this bill . i 'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented , bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original , very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft . as i say , in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 i tabled this , in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 , when it comes into effect , onto the floor of the assembly . because while i completely accept that you 've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on , it 's still possible to do that without procedure , and so i have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure . amendment 3a is a holding position , which we will return to you in stage 3 , because i think , again , this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you 're looking for , because i think you probably need something that 's beyond transitional , transitory and saving . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , have you finished ? suzy davies am: yes , thank you very much . lynne neagle am: are there any other members who wish to speak on this group ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: i thank suzy for that input . we do n't actually think it 's necessary to have wider powers , but we will keep this under review and at stage 3 , i think that— . when i was looking at this , i was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage , but i can understand that there may be links to other bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers . so , basically , i do n't think it is necessary to have wider powers , but i can assure you that we 'll keep that in review coming up to stage 3 . suzy davies am: can i just ask a question on the back of that ? lynne neagle am: will you take a brief intervention at the end , minister ? suzy davies am: will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? julie morgan am: i was going to end there , yes . suzy davies am: right , okay , well , just before your full stop , would you just confirm that you 're happy for us to discuss this before stage 3 ? julie morgan am: yes , very happy . yes . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . before disposing of amendment 3 , we will deal with the amendment to that amendment . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 3a ? suzy davies am: i 'll move it , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 3a . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 3a is not agreed . if amendment 3 is not agreed , amendment 6 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 3 is therefore agreed . the committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. can i welcome members back ? we will move on to group 4 , which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of janet finch-saunders . i call on janet finch-saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i speak to both amendments in this group . as i outlined under amendments 2i and 2j , there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment . now , it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic . as i have mentioned previously , these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services . furthermore , the welsh local government association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are , those costs are met , because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . now , during evidence , the deputy minister , when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate . ' but you could n't commit to a broad figure , instead telling us that : 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us . ' and : 'we have to measure it as we go along . ' given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes , we only think it is fair for the welsh government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this bill . now , while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards , i note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by welsh government . anticipating the deputy minister 's response that few under this category , if any at all , would be affected by the bill , we are pursuing a principle here , and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the deputy minister . now , these are just two examples of welsh government legislation to date that have been underfunded . the active travel ( wales ) act 2013 : last year , the economy , infrastructure and skills committee found that the wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of england 's and one sixth of holland 's . furthermore , the committee highlighted that the passing of the act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes , but were constrained by the funding made available to them . the minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million . now , my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel act to become a meaningful piece of legislation , and the same goes with the well-being of future generations ( wales ) act 2015. this month , the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding . outside of the welsh government 's regional grant that can not be spent on projects , councils often contribute through officer time or facilities , but resources and capacity to support those psbs remain a key risk , as partners do n't have the capacity to take on more . the reason that i wanted these amendments placed in here is i genuinely do not believe that you 've even envisioned what , or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations , and certainly our local authorities and health boards , the impact this bill is going to have . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . are there other members who would like to speak in this group , please ? no . okay . i call the deputy minister , then . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i can understand that the member is concerned about the impact of this bill on public services , but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the bill that we 've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this bill before introduction . and as far as we 're aware , no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation , and also comprehensively prepared for implementation . we 've explored the published data , which is available from other countries , on the impact of measures they 've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children . we 've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in ireland , new zealand and malta , who have legal systems similar to our own . and in these countries , there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform . and stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs , and i think we should trust their judgment on this . in fact , as this committee notes in its stage 1 report , those delivering services on the front line have said , without exception , that 'this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in wales because it will make the law clear . ' sally jenkins of the association of directors of social services said to this committee : 'in terms of thresholds for children ’ s services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that ’ s likely to happen . ' that 's from the front line . jane randall , chair of the national independent safeguarding board wales , said : 'there 's no expectation that there 's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services , i think it would be dealt with within their existing resources . ' and dr rowena christmas , royal college of general practitioners , said : ' i ca n't see it 's going to lengthen consultations . i ca n't see that it 's going to increase the number of consultations , and i do n't think it 's going to increase the number of referrals i make to the health visitor or to social services , because if i was worried , i 'd make those referrals now regardless of the bill . ' i just want to say again that the bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault , which has formed part of the common law of england and wales for a very long time . and social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted , including from health and education , so it 's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them . i do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points . as i 've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments , we 're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services , and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation . welsh government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications . i can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued , and i 've asked officials to prepare a revised ria , as recommended at stage 2 , and i expect to share an updated ria with you in advance of stage 3. serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the bill , but i think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given , particularly to this committee , from the professionals at the front line . what the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within government , and it 's not clear why , in the context of the evidence heard at stage i , such provisions are necessary . i 'm sure that members will agree that future governments need to be able to consider , within the context of the budget-setting process , what the priorities are , and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time , for example taking into account any issues that there are—uk government actions , what happens in relation to brexit , or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or welsh society . all those issues would have to be taken into account . furthermore , as is the case now , the national assembly for wales scrutinises the welsh government budget annually , so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies , should it consider that this is required . i do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding , so i urge members to reject these amendments , which i believe are unnecessary . janet finch-saunders am: chair , could i ask a question ? lynne neagle am: you can reply to the debate now , janet , yes . janet finch-saunders am: i 'd like to ask a question of the deputy minister . when we were taking evidence , at an earlier stage , i noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across wales . now , we have 22 local authorities . at that time , the numbers mentioned were quite small—i think only a handful . what discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead , the cabinet members , or , indeed , the head of service ? i can speak from my own experiences , when going around my constituency , but when i 've spoken to some of the family support groups , and , indeed , the departments themselves , they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision . they 're already overstretched , and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden . so , how much have you engaged with them ? julie morgan am: there 's been extensive engagement . we 've had meetings with the association of directors of social services , and they 're represented on all our groups , and we 're working very closely with them , because , of course , they represent all the local authorities . but i have to say , when i 've been going round and meeting lots of different groups , the first thing they say is , ' i 'm so glad that you 're doing this ' , and they have n't mentioned any financial implications . but , obviously , we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up . janet finch-saunders am: okay . so , i 'll still move my amendments . i 'm disappointed , really . i was hoping to see some commitment to—this bill was going to go through , and it 's one that could be implemented fully , because sufficient resources were there . i 'm not convinced about that , and i know that other organisations are not also . so , i move my amendments . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 11 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 11 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 12 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] all those in favour of amendment 12. all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 12 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . i move amendment 4 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 4 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 4 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 4 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 5 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 5 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 5 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 5 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 6 , then , in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 6 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 6 is therefore agreed . this takes us , then , to the fifth and final group , which relates to commencement . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of suzy davies . and i call suzy davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing , but it 's the lead amendment in the group , so i 'll move it to begin the debate . minister , i 'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically . you 've said repeatedly , and i believe you , that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children . you could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement , but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law , where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted , but liability to prosecution , not just liability to civil sanctions . i 'm sure you 'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted , but that decision does not and can not lie with you . you , like us , have no agency in this , because the powers and the duties of the police and the crown prosecution service sit outside our competence . you can not and we can not , by law or otherwise , instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents . you 've acknowledged to this committee and the constitutional and legislative affairs committee that revised cps charging guidance and any other guidance on , for example , out-of-court disposals , are key to delivering your policy objectives . you 'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group , is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like . so , you 're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force , the frequency of the offence , any prior conviction , any prior reporting , not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced , or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals ; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest , let alone charging . and you argue that the rights of the child are what matter , and i agree with you here , but everybody , adult or child , has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure , and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage . now , clac recommended that any revised guidance be made available to ams before stage 3. i anticipate that that 's unlikely , and i hope i 'm wrong , but that 's why janet and i have tabled amendments 10 and 15 , which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that cps guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed . that reflects our recommendation 4 , this committee 's recommendation , as well as clac 's recommendation 1. it gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment , even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded . and you have not addressed these in your own amendments . i have to say , minister , i think these points are so serious that i would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking royal assent for this bill until the assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and cps . i 'd have sought a report stage , if i could , so that we could consider that evidence . but i 'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled , 10 and 15 , so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately can not control once this bill has passed . now , i know you 've got the numbers to pass this bill , whether you accept amendments or not , but i just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a bill that changes a person 's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that , and you 're inviting this assembly to fall into the same trap . i therefore urge the assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . are there other members who wish to speak ? no . janet , do you want to speak ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , i wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. amendment 14 , however , is consequential to amendment 16 passing . amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the welsh government . as was clear during the committee 's evidence sessions , present welsh government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage . for example , the capacity and reach of the healthy child wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising , with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved , with 53.2 per cent of children in wales reported as being contacted . furthermore , existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas , such as flying start , and even the children 's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children . now , the deputy minister mentioned the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents . however , the deputy minister was challenged on this fact , that this is an online campaign only , and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake . consequently , it should be remembered that this bill will affect all parents . therefore , the deputy minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . deputy minister . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i 've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during stage 1. as a result , i have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law . my amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the bill by order of the welsh ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after royal assent . that was done to give certainty on the length of time . up to then , we 'd always said 'up to two years'—well , we 're giving two years . this certainty will allow key partners , including the police , social services and the crown prosecution service , to plan for changes to guidance , training and data-collection systems more effectively . it 'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign . my amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision , which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6 , and we discussed those in the previous group . i 've listened to the arguments put forward by suzy davies and janet finch-saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled . these amendments are all about making the commencement of the bill conditional on something else happening , whether it 's waiting for the revision of crown prosecution service guidance , or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system , or for the provision of parenting support services . and , really , i do n't think that we should be going down that road . as i set out in my letter of response to the stage 1 report from the constitutional and legislative affairs committee , we 've got good working relations with the cps through the strategic implementation group , and we work very closely with them . but the cps are an independent body , as suzy davies has said in her contribution , not answerable to welsh ministers or this legislature , and it 's not appropriate for a minister or the national assembly to seek to influence the cps guidelines . we 're discussing the issues with the cps in the implementation group . and , in fact , i think that these amendments—suzy 's amendments in particular—would n't just seek to influence the cps , but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in wales . so , i do n't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided . i think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship , very close working relationship . and i know they did give evidence to your committee , i believe , the cps . and i think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence , or not , assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty , i think , if we did go down that track , because i think this is very important welsh legislation , which does have broad support across the assembly . and i do n't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation . so , i do n't support those amendments . i think the cps is entirely independent of government , and must be entirely independent of government , and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance . in addition , you suggest we allow the uk government to have a say in when welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the assembly . the test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain . if these amendments passed , it would be very difficult , if not impossible , to judge when section 1 could be commenced . this contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for , and raises huge uncertainty , which potentially jeopardises the bill . and i want to assure you again , not only do we have good working relations with the cps , but also very good working relationships with the police , who are , of course , the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues . the work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the bill 's commencement . in fact , it 's the other way round . my amendment to provide a two-year period between royal assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force . and then , when it comes to parenting support , the committee knows that i 've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support , and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue . i have already said i will expand the age range of the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign , and i think— . i know janet finch-saunders has made the point that it is an online facility . it is very widely used . it is a very successful tool . but , of course , the universal services are also there . for example , the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial , and that is a service that is for every child . and , of course , the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly . and the expert group is considering what it 'll recommend for the future , and it needs the time to be able to do that , to support the bill as well as to support parenting more widely . so , as i said , i think these are important points that you have raised , but i do n't think they are appropriate . so , i therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10 , nor 13 , 14 and 15 . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy to reply to the debate . suzy davies am: thank you very much , and thank you very much , deputy minister , as well . i 'm disappointed that you have n't seen what 's behind janet finch-saunders 's final amendment there , actually . maybe it 's something we 'll raise again with you at stage 3 , or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then . but i want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that i 've raised and your assertion that we 're giving , or attempting to give , power to the cps here . we are not . this amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area . and this is why i go back to where my contribution to this started , and it 's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or , sorry , to try and protect children 's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence . this bill—and , actually , you 've said a couple of times in your response today that it 's important that it 's commenced on a certain date . my argument is : it should n't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence . and , while i claim no mischief on the part of the cps or the police—obviously i don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the cps , should they wish to do it , or indeed the police with their own guidelines , putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence . and , because of that , i ask you to consider , or balance , actually , two important things here : one is the rights of the child , obviously at the forefront of your argument on this , which i would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion ; and , actually , the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you can not allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing . the relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family , but that 's something you ought to protect in what you 're trying to do here , and by leaving it open , as you say , to completely different—sorry , undevolved , two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me . i know this is n't going to stop your bill going forward , but i really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at stage 3 , because leaving , effectively , the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control , despite your great relationship with them , should worry us all as a legislature . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , suzy . do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9 ? suzy davies am: oh , because of the voting order— . yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 9 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 9 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 9 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 13 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 13 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 13 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 13 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 14 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 14 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 14 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 14 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 7 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 7 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 7 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against . amendment 7 is agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 10 ? suzy davies am: yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 10 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 10 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 10 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 15 ? janet finch-saunders am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 15 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 15 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 15 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 16 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 16 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 16 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 16 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 8 , then , in the name of the minister . the question is that amendment 8 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 8 is therefore agreed . well , that has brought us to the end of our amendments , so can i thank the deputy minister and her officials for their attendance ? as usual , you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy . this completes stage 2 proceedings . stage 3 begins tomorrow , and the relevant date of stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course . standing orders make provision for the deputy minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum , taking account of the amendments agreed today . the revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before stage 3 proceedings . thank you very much . julie morgan am: thank you all very much . lynne neagle am: okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the deputy minister for health and social services , following our meeting on 2 october . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services updating the committee on the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' strategy . and paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the deputy minister for health and social services regarding early childhood education and care , following the session that we held on 2 october . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

there was a debate of whether amendment 1 and 4 , and 1a to 1e should be accepted or rejected . the deputy minister firstly expressed her opinions . she was in favor of amendments 1 and 4 , but against 1a to 1e , mainly because she thought that level of details were not necessarily on the face of the bill . however , janet finch-saunders thought the deputy minister 's amendment lacked a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1 and explained one by one from 1a to 1e why those amendments were important . afterwards , there was a short debate about whether to accept those amendments from suzy davies , dawn bowden , hefin david and sian gwenllian . suzy davies supported amendment 1a to 1e , while others all against them . at last , they took a vote and it ended up with rejecting amendment 1a to 1e and agreeing with amendment 1 .

how did the deputy minister speak to her amendments in group 1 that related to the duty to promote public awareness ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask if there are any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill : stage 2 proceedings . i 'm pleased to welcome julie morgan am , deputy minister for health and social services ; karen cornish , deputy director , children and families division at welsh government ; and emma gammon , lawyer for welsh government . thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee . i 'm just going to run through the procedures that we 're going to follow now . as i said , the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . for these proceedings , members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments , the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments . the marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled , marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the bill . the order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is , sections 1 to 3 and the long title . you will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate . however , the order in which they 're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list . members will , therefore , need to follow the two papers , although i will advise members when i call them whether they 're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision . there will be one debate on each group of amendments . members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way . i will call the deputy minister to speak on each group . for the record , in accordance with the convention agreed by the business committee , as chair i will move amendments in the name of the deputy minister . for expediency , i will assume that the deputy minister wishes me to move all of her amendments , and i will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list . deputy minister , if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved , please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings . in line with our usual practice , legal advisers to the committee and the deputy minister are not expected to provide advice on the record . if members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings , please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and , if necessary , we can adjourn . my intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today 's meeting . i will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time , if necessary . okay , thank you . so , we will proceed , then , to group 1 , which is the duty to promote public awareness . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 1 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . my amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the act commences . i tabled these amendments in response to this committee 's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the stage 1 report , so i have responded to that . i 've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from royal assent , should the bill be passed . i 've considered amendments 1a to 1e , which have been tabled by janet finch-saunders , and which relate to the duty to raise awareness . amendment 1a introduces a reference to public understanding . we do n't think , actually , that this adds anything to the government amendment , which already mentions awareness . it makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit , which is not necessary . by commencement , messaging around the change in the law will be embedded . the awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years . therefore , an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required . i understand , of course , that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive , well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change , and understand how to respond to it . but i do n't think it 's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups , such as visitors to wales , on the face of the bill—that 's the approach taken in amendment 1e—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others . in relation to children , the committee will know that i 'm fully committed to children ’ s rights , and that welsh ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions . an additional due regard requirement , such as the one set out in amendment 1d , relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed . this would be part and parcel of the welsh government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making . similarly , i do n't think it 's necessary for the bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign , as is suggested in amendments 1b and 1c . that level of detail , i do n't think , is for the face of the bill . information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group , under the auspices of the bill ’ s strategic implementation group , working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign . and , really , their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the bill . i think we always need to bear in mind that what the bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence ; it does not create a new offence . and in this context , it does n't make sense for this bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished . as i set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point , safeguarding is everyone ’ s business , and , as now , the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child . i 'm asking for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and i ask members to reject amendments 1a to 1e because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . are there other members who wish to speak ? janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i wish to speak to amendments 1a to 1e , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness . while we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law , the deputy minister 's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. an important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that i 've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign , which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the bill , but serves as a duty for future administrations . amendment 1a : primarily , amendment 1a changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . i do n't think it 's enough for the welsh government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the welsh government 's objectives have been achieved . despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour , the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors . instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence , this law will remove a defence for parents , information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives , potentially separate parents , and could affect employment chances . as such , whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign , it is important too that the welsh government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign . the witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: janet , dawn is asking if you 'll take an intervention . janet finch-saunders am: yes . dawn bowden am: i just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there 's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it 's been passed ? janet finch-saunders am: there 's a lot of legislation . the first assembly term when i was here— dawn bowden am: yes , what i 'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: i 'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: what i 'm asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? janet finch-saunders am: the very first term that i was an assembly member , we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation . even today , as i sit here , the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation . this particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in wales . so , therefore , i think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved , and i shall speak now— dawn bowden am: with respect , chair , that 's not the question i asked . janet finch-saunders am: —to my amendments . lynne neagle am: i can call you in the debate , if you 'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this . yes . janet finch-saunders am: the witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications . and that 's what we 're talking about here , members—the implications of removing this defence . strikingly , the office of police and crime commissioner for gwent stated the following : 'the potential for public resistance to the bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation . ' if you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment , it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this bill . additionally , the committee found that while the current welsh government 's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt , future governments may have less of a commitment . this places further weight on the fact that the welsh government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the bill beyond its commencement . furthermore , the children ( equal protection from assault ) ( scotland ) bill quite clearly notes that , under section 2 , the scottish ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister can respond as to the reasons why the welsh government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment . [ interruption . ] should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: are you taking an intervention ? janet finch-saunders am: no . i 'd rather crack on , to be honest . lynne neagle am: okay . i can call you in the debate , hefin . janet finch-saunders am: should our amendment to be agreed , we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. amendment 1b : amendment 1b is in line with the committee 's recommendation 9 , which stated that , as part of a public awareness campaign , there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children . during evidence at stage 1 , the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence . for example , children in wales , action for children and play wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support . welsh government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need . now , while the deputy minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information , a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future welsh governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign . i note the deputy minister accepted the recommendation , through our amendment , but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents . as will be expanded upon later , the deputy minister has relied upon the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising . however , this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups . amendment 1c : amendment 1c supports the committee 's recommendation 15 that explains that the welsh government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted . we urged , at stage 1 , that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment , regardless of the bill , other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded . in particular , some were worried that children , who may not realise the implications of reporting , could make allegations that are actually untrue . while we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations , this could also be reflected among adults , if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault . lynne neagle am: thank you . i 've got several speakers . i 've got suzy davies first , then dawn bowden . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . thank you minister , and thank you , janet , for that . i think it 's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by janet there are based on committee recommendations , and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large , but also you as well . so , that suggests that , at that stage , we were n't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report . now , i recognise that you 've moved some way on some of these amendments , and we 'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups . but the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation , now—that means that this is the instrument of the assembly , not of government , and if this assembly feels that the face of the bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign , then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign . the list that janet has given is a minimum . the reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be , so it will be disappointing to hear that you 're rejecting them all , and the reason they need to go on the face of the bill is that , if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation , at the moment we have no reassurance about how you 're going to do that—about what input the assembly , on behalf of our constituents , could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign . unless you accept some amendments in other groups , that is the position with this bill : the influence of the assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign . in terms of it being non-time limited , i think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting , never-ending campaign of awareness raising . but if you bear in mind that , seven years after the introduction of this bill , there 's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the bill , what is the point of doing that if you do n't then have an obligation , should the reports require it to be necessary , to continue promoting the changes in the law ? i accept that that ca n't go on for centuries , but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive , and which has a reach beyond our boundaries , i think is genuinely a mistake . finally , you mention that safeguarding is everyone 's business . i think that 's true , but i think janet finch-saunders was right to say that members of the public , ordinary individuals , not professionals , will need assurance that they 're doing the right thing . the amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that , although that can be read in that way , but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing . if this is going to be up to the individual , as you 've said , and the committee itself was n't reassured that individuals would know what to do , perhaps i can ask you to consider at stage 3 , if you 're going to reject this amendment , how you can reassure members of the public that , if they are going to intervene on the back of this law , they 're making things better , not worse . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . dawn . dawn bowden am: my comments , really , relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns , which i think all of us would want to see , and would appreciate in any changes in legislation . my point , really , is that we have a plethora of legislation that this assembly has passed in the last 20 years , and i 'm not aware of any legislation where , on the face of the bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis . it seems to me that , for some reason , you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation . from what the deputy minister is saying—and perhaps i will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign . that awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it . it could also , i assume , deputy minister , be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use . but the point i 'm trying to make is that i do n't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns , and particularly in relation to visitors to wales . again , we have other pieces of legislation in wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the uk . i am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do n't . and similarly , when we go to visit countries that have different legislation , we do n't necessarily know what legislation we 're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws . so , my key point , chair , is just the necessity of an ongoing , endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , dawn . hefin . hefin david am: my comments follow logically from dawn bowden 's comments , particularly in relation to amendments 1d and 1e . what you would be doing is that this senedd , if this was on the face of the bill , the duty on ministers , would be putting the duty on ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth senedd , into the next senedd term , and putting that duty on those newly elected ministers after that , which , in principle , would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: hefin , are you taking an intervention from suzy ? hefin david am: yes , happy to . suzy davies am: when you 've finished your point . hefin david am: i 'm happy to take it now , because i was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made , actually . suzy davies am: i 'd love that . you referred to this potentially binding ministers in future assemblies ; at the moment , we 've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this act into the assembly after next . i 'm wondering if you 're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on . hefin david am: well , when we get to that amendment , i 'll make comments if i feel it necessary . but at this point in time , we 're talking about amendments 1d and 1e , and particularly in relation to 1d and 1e it just is n't necessary , given the fact that—i wo n't call it a concession , because i think you made a reasonable point about the minister making a statement at stage 3 , and i think dawn bowden actually supported that as well . that , therefore , makes those amendments unnecessary . given that , in these circumstances , it is unnecessary to bind ministers in future parliaments . and that 's my key point , really , which is why i would n't vote for those two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you . siân . sian gwenllian am: thank you very much . i just want to speak against amendment 1a and also amendment 1b . i do n't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign , as is outlined in 1a . i agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change , and therefore i 'm very glad to see that the government has brought forward amendment 1 , and i do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change . in terms of amendment 1b , i do have sympathy with what is being said here , but i believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the government , through various programmes , and it should not be an addition on the face of this bill , which deals with a small change to the common law . and then , on 1d also , if i may—i do n't agree with this either . again , i believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children , but that should happen through the children 's rights convention , as part of a broader programme to promote children 's rights . lynne neagle am: thank you , siân . i call on the deputy minister to speak , then . julie morgan am: thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today . i just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the bill , and i absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the bill . i 'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee 's interest and the work that you 've done in this area of work . but i do think that these amendments are unnecessary . if we go through them , amendment 1a is really open-ended on promoting public awareness . we 're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from royal assent , and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign . all the points that you 've been making will be being considered by that group . i think the level of detail on the face of the bill is not needed . suzy davies am: okay . would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? a two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: six-year . suzy davies am: i thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force . julie morgan am: we 've got six years from royal assent . suzy davies am: oh , so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: yes . oh yes , it 's going to continue . suzy davies am: that 's very helpful . julie morgan am: definitely , yes . so , i do n't think that 's needed , amendment 1a . amendment 1b , about support available to parents and how to access it—again , this level of detail is not required on the face of the bill . i just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group , who are working on all aspects of this bill , many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee . the bill is a simple one , with a clear purpose . it aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment . i think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting , but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development , and they 're not required on the face of the bill . so , i 'm not putting them down , i 'm just saying that we do n't need them to be there on the face of the bill . and then amendment 1c—the information about how to raise concerns—i do repeat that safeguarding is everybody 's business , and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed . amendment 1d—ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now , children 's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making , and the entire bill is about protecting the rights of children . so , it is unnecessary duplication . so , we hope that the bill will remain focused . again , in terms of visitors , the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the bill . our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive . and then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised , revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of stage 3. so , there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment . the issue that was raised about the scottish bill , that it refers to 'understanding'—now , the scottish bill was not a government bill , it was a private member 's bill , and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding ' ; 'awareness ' is sufficient . so , basically , i think that the points made have been very useful , but i urge committee members to accept my amendments , but to reject those proposed by janet finch-saunders , as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 1 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1a ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection . i therefore take a vote by show of hands . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . all those in favour , please raise your hands . all those against . there voted two in favour , four against . so , amendment 1a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1b ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 1b be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1b . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 1b is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . all those in favour of amendment 1c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1c is not agreed . janet , do you want to move amendment 1d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1d be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , as there 's an objection , i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1d , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1d is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1e ? janet finch-saunders am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . the question is that amendment 1e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1e is not agreed . if amendment 1 is not agreed , amendment 2c and amendment 4 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . i move amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 1 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection , so we 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1. all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 1 is agreed . we 'll move on now then to group 2 , which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 , in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 2 in the deputy minister 's name , and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments , and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . the amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the bill , and i believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee , so you strongly influenced this amendment . it 's clear from members ' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment . i 've already provided assurance that i agree with the importance placed on such a review , both in the explanatory memorandum and during stage 1 scrutiny . i also made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . i have done this with amendment 2. amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after royal assent . as i said in my responses to the stage 1 committee report , and as set out in the explanatory memorandum , the post-implementation review of this bill will not be a single piece of work , but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. firstly , we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys , which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment . the surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign . secondly , through a dedicated task and finish group , we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the bill and to consider the possible impact on services . turning to amendment 2c , this amendment would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced . this amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what i think is a priority for the implementation of this bill : that is , given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders . i also think this amendment is not required because , as i 've already stated , we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising . in june , i shared the findings of a representative survey , which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation . i shared this with the committee . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . i open it up for discussion now , then . janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i speak to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment . again , i must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outline what we would expect to be within this report , and we would wish to see a commitment from the deputy minister to ensure the national assembly for wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report . amendment 2c requests that the welsh government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the assembly before section 1 commences . as i have outlined under my amendments in group 1 , the understanding of the public about the implications of the bill can not be sidelined . although the deputy minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign , we , as the national assembly for wales , must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins . as i noted under amendments 1b to 1e , there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the bill 's effect . i 'm sure that the deputy minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness . it is , therefore , important for the assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people . as will also be elaborated under amendment 2d , it is extremely important that we , as the parliament of wales , are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact . before we implement what will be a criminal offence , it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign 's effects before section 1 commences . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . deputy minister , first of all , can i just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2b ? i 'll come to that a little bit later , if i may . i just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you 'll be rejecting amendment 2c here . i actually do n't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all . it 's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that 's in the draft bill at the moment . so , failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well , rather than anything intrinsic in the bill , so i 'm not sure i can accept your argument on that . and , on 2d—very pleased to hear that you 'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying ' rather than 'publishing ' at stage 3 , but , in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature , perhaps i could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage , because it does n't make any difference . your amendment is going to pass , and this amendment to it would be—i think the gesture there would be very much appreciated . i 'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2a and 2b , but i want to begin , again , by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the bill on the issue of reporting , because i know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity ; you mentioned it earlier . but this is not a newid bychan , i 'm afraid , siân ; the terms and the effect of this bill are quite extensive , and it does need the reassurances , if you like , necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this bill on families where parents ' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute . it does need statutory underpinning . so , i am grateful to you for accepting this duty . i know that you 're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment , and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear . but , if this were me bringing forward this bill , i think i 'd want to show the world that i was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do . amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed . there are acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that . if you 're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change , and i think that is what you 're expecting—you know , showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment , reducing the number of , and indeed the likelihood of , parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—i really would have thought you 'd want people to know sooner , or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that . waiting five years , i think , will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years , and this is why i 'm grateful to you for your offer , because there may be a way where we can overcome that . if the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so , basically , in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that 's great , but there 's a possibility it 's going to reverse . again , i do n't think i 'd want to wait five years to find that out . for myself , i think one year would probably be enough , but i think three years is a reasonable compromise , as opposed to five years , for a reporting period . i think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a bill 's effectiveness . i ca n't see the reason for quite that length of time—i know you 've talked about new zealand—but neither can the constitutional and legislative affairs committee . i think that 's worth pointing out . when they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report , they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny . that 's something i think we perhaps need to bear in mind now , as we enter this period of the consolidation of law . five/seven years is really something of an outlier , and while that might have been appropriate , perhaps , in new zealand , i do n't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in wales , and , of course , there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years , and i note that you have n't drawn on them in order to support your argument . so , can i urge members and the minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? i do n't think it 's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point , hefin—that we not only wo n't hear in this assembly , we wo n't hear in the next assembly , about the formal evaluation of this , unless i follow— hefin david am: i wo n't intervene ; i 'll speak . suzy davies am: is that okay ? hefin david am: yes , i 'll make the point . lynne neagle am: okay , i 've got— suzy davies am: yes , i 'll take the intervention . lynne neagle am: no , he does n't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: i wo n't do an intervention ; i 'll speak . lynne neagle am: —he 'll make a contribution . suzy davies am: oh , apologies— hefin david am: just to say— suzy davies am: i 'll wait . hefin david am: well , let me put the intervention— . i 'll do it as an intervention , then . i just feel that—i take your point , and i was expecting it . the point i was making about 1d and 1e is they close down choices to ministers in future assemblies . an evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future parliaments more options with regard to this bill , so i think it 's entirely consistent . i do n't think the minister , in putting in amendment 2 , was trying to undermine my argument . actually , i think she 's being constructive by doing that , and i think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that 's quite helpful , and its consequence will be to open up choices to future parliaments , whereas my objection to 1d and 1e is they close those down . suzy davies am: okay , well , as i say , i think , actually , the deputy minister 's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this . because i 'm not 100 per cent sure i accept your argument , either , because it closes it down for the interim period if we do n't move on with the deputy minister 's suggestion—which i 'll talk about now , actually . because i am tempted to accept your offer . it absolutely makes sense and it 's clearly made with the best good faith here . but i need some clarity on what you would allow this assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report . because you 've been very clear that you do n't want to accept the things that janet finch-saunders has been talking about in a final report , and yet i can tell you we want to hear about these things . so , if you 're in a position where you can give a commitment at stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report , but that you will consult with , perhaps , this committee—i 'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report , what we would want to see tested , then i 'll be minded not to move amendment 2b . if you ca n't give me that reassurance , then i 'm going to move it anyway and we 'll return to it at stage 3 , if you do n't mind . just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable , and i do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to . again , at stage 3 , i 'm happy if you want to make three months six months , or something like that , but 'as soon as practicable ' is open ended , and what you think is practicable may be very different from what i or my constituents think is practicable . so , i do n't want to stick with what is practicable ; i would like you to put a date on this . if it 's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties , i think that 's fairly reasonable as well , but i 'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes , i welcome adding to the bill through amendment 2 , and what you 've said today also , that you 're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the bill , and to lay a report before the assembly . i am interested in what suzy is saying , and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods , and not say 'when it will be practicable ' . therefore , i would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the minister regarding these issues . suzy davies am: i would like to . thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . any other members ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: well , just to start off on that point , i think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss , i think i 'm very happy to accept that . so , i 'm happy to discuss that with you , and with the committee , before the third stage . so , i hope you will consider removing— . suzy davies am: no , genuinely i am . julie morgan am: right , thank you . well , just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised , on the issue of training now , i think janet raised a number of points about training , and we do have an operations , procedures , processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work , and they are considering guidance and training requirements . there are many professional bodies represented on that group , many of whom i think have given evidence here today , and they 've really got a chance to have their say . the officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at stage 3 , so there will be more information about training there . but we have this group looking at it , and it is very key . generally , i think that all the contributions are very helpful , and i know they 're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation . i ca n't support amendments 2a , 2c , and amendments 2e to 2k , because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the bill already , or they 're covered by the government amendments that i 've moved . but i do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough , multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services . now , tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points , so there 's no question there of having to wait ; we 'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes . suzy davies am: would you take an intervention there , deputy minister ? thank you very much . of course , i appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments , but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? so , even if this is not a statutory commitment , what exactly from our list , our wish list here , would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? julie morgan am: well , i would actually have thought all of them . all the areas you 've raised are very relevant , i think . obviously , this is not a statutory thing i 'm saying , but— suzy davies am: no , no , and this is not a— julie morgan am: yes , but considering those points you 've put forward , i think all of them have got a great deal of relevance . we will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you 've suggested and , in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group , which is about developing methods to collect data , we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you 've made on those issues . so , i do n't see any problem with that at all . suzy davies am: thank you . julie morgan am: so , as i say , i ca n't support the amendments . i 'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—i think one of yours and it was one of janet 's , was n't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage . because i am sympathetic to your views on these matters , and i think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well . so , i 'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at stage 3. in line with the recommendations of the finance committee , further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at stage 3. so , i think at this point i would ask that members reject the non-government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 , which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the bill , with the exception , obviously , of those two amendments , which i 'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 2 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2c is lost . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2a ? suzy davies am: i move amendment 2a , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2a , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: janet , do you wish to move amendment 2e ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2e is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2f ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2f be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2f ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2f is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2g ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2g be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , can i see all those in favour of amendment 2g ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2g is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2h ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2h be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2h ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2h is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2i ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2i be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . can i see all those in favour of amendment 2i ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2i is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2j ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2j be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . can i see all those in favour of 2j ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2j is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2k ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2k be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i 'll therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2k ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2k is not agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2b ? suzy davies am: in view of the deputy minister 's reassurances , i wo n't move this amendment today , but obviously i reserve the right to bring something back if we ca n't reach consensus . thank you . lynne neagle am: does any other member wish to move amendment 2b ? okay , no . thank you . we 'll move on , then . if amendment 2 is not agreed , amendment 5 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 2 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 2— suzy davies am: objection . lynne neagle am: you 're objecting ? suzy davies am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . right , we 'll therefore take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 2 is agreed . that takes us on to group 3 , which relates to the regulation-making powers in the bill . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 3 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . members will note that i 've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the bill , which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment . and that is going to be debated under group 5. so , we 're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here , basically . as a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a welsh minister to make an order for commencement , the power to make transitory , transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the bill coming into force would also be removed . so , i 'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the bill ; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it , and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after royal assent . in fact , removing the power for the welsh ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended . these amendments are technical in nature and while i acknowledge that the constitutional and legislative affairs committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied , their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied . the absence of an assembly procedure does not mean that ministers ' decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the assembly . any concerns about the welsh ministers ' proposals could be put to me in the senedd . this was a point made to clac and , as i say , their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power . for those reasons , i encourage members to reject amendment 3a from suzy . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . well perhaps , deputy minister , i can begin by saying that one person 's technical issue is another person 's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny . but i thank you for noting the assembly 's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this bill—this time by clac , as you say . moving this—and i 'm glad actually that amendment 8 , i think it was , has removed an order provision and we 're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here . i have to say that amendment 3a is something of a probing amendment , and i 'll explain why now . your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 , but it 's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it 's not a separate commencement power . and , actually , i 've been listening to the rest of this debate , and thinking that , if you 're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report , the chances are you 're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas , i think . and i 'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory , transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this bill . i 'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented , bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original , very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft . as i say , in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 i tabled this , in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 , when it comes into effect , onto the floor of the assembly . because while i completely accept that you 've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on , it 's still possible to do that without procedure , and so i have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure . amendment 3a is a holding position , which we will return to you in stage 3 , because i think , again , this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you 're looking for , because i think you probably need something that 's beyond transitional , transitory and saving . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , have you finished ? suzy davies am: yes , thank you very much . lynne neagle am: are there any other members who wish to speak on this group ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: i thank suzy for that input . we do n't actually think it 's necessary to have wider powers , but we will keep this under review and at stage 3 , i think that— . when i was looking at this , i was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage , but i can understand that there may be links to other bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers . so , basically , i do n't think it is necessary to have wider powers , but i can assure you that we 'll keep that in review coming up to stage 3 . suzy davies am: can i just ask a question on the back of that ? lynne neagle am: will you take a brief intervention at the end , minister ? suzy davies am: will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? julie morgan am: i was going to end there , yes . suzy davies am: right , okay , well , just before your full stop , would you just confirm that you 're happy for us to discuss this before stage 3 ? julie morgan am: yes , very happy . yes . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . before disposing of amendment 3 , we will deal with the amendment to that amendment . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 3a ? suzy davies am: i 'll move it , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 3a . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 3a is not agreed . if amendment 3 is not agreed , amendment 6 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 3 is therefore agreed . the committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. can i welcome members back ? we will move on to group 4 , which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of janet finch-saunders . i call on janet finch-saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i speak to both amendments in this group . as i outlined under amendments 2i and 2j , there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment . now , it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic . as i have mentioned previously , these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services . furthermore , the welsh local government association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are , those costs are met , because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . now , during evidence , the deputy minister , when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate . ' but you could n't commit to a broad figure , instead telling us that : 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us . ' and : 'we have to measure it as we go along . ' given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes , we only think it is fair for the welsh government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this bill . now , while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards , i note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by welsh government . anticipating the deputy minister 's response that few under this category , if any at all , would be affected by the bill , we are pursuing a principle here , and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the deputy minister . now , these are just two examples of welsh government legislation to date that have been underfunded . the active travel ( wales ) act 2013 : last year , the economy , infrastructure and skills committee found that the wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of england 's and one sixth of holland 's . furthermore , the committee highlighted that the passing of the act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes , but were constrained by the funding made available to them . the minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million . now , my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel act to become a meaningful piece of legislation , and the same goes with the well-being of future generations ( wales ) act 2015. this month , the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding . outside of the welsh government 's regional grant that can not be spent on projects , councils often contribute through officer time or facilities , but resources and capacity to support those psbs remain a key risk , as partners do n't have the capacity to take on more . the reason that i wanted these amendments placed in here is i genuinely do not believe that you 've even envisioned what , or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations , and certainly our local authorities and health boards , the impact this bill is going to have . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . are there other members who would like to speak in this group , please ? no . okay . i call the deputy minister , then . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i can understand that the member is concerned about the impact of this bill on public services , but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the bill that we 've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this bill before introduction . and as far as we 're aware , no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation , and also comprehensively prepared for implementation . we 've explored the published data , which is available from other countries , on the impact of measures they 've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children . we 've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in ireland , new zealand and malta , who have legal systems similar to our own . and in these countries , there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform . and stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs , and i think we should trust their judgment on this . in fact , as this committee notes in its stage 1 report , those delivering services on the front line have said , without exception , that 'this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in wales because it will make the law clear . ' sally jenkins of the association of directors of social services said to this committee : 'in terms of thresholds for children ’ s services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that ’ s likely to happen . ' that 's from the front line . jane randall , chair of the national independent safeguarding board wales , said : 'there 's no expectation that there 's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services , i think it would be dealt with within their existing resources . ' and dr rowena christmas , royal college of general practitioners , said : ' i ca n't see it 's going to lengthen consultations . i ca n't see that it 's going to increase the number of consultations , and i do n't think it 's going to increase the number of referrals i make to the health visitor or to social services , because if i was worried , i 'd make those referrals now regardless of the bill . ' i just want to say again that the bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault , which has formed part of the common law of england and wales for a very long time . and social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted , including from health and education , so it 's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them . i do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points . as i 've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments , we 're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services , and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation . welsh government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications . i can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued , and i 've asked officials to prepare a revised ria , as recommended at stage 2 , and i expect to share an updated ria with you in advance of stage 3. serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the bill , but i think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given , particularly to this committee , from the professionals at the front line . what the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within government , and it 's not clear why , in the context of the evidence heard at stage i , such provisions are necessary . i 'm sure that members will agree that future governments need to be able to consider , within the context of the budget-setting process , what the priorities are , and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time , for example taking into account any issues that there are—uk government actions , what happens in relation to brexit , or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or welsh society . all those issues would have to be taken into account . furthermore , as is the case now , the national assembly for wales scrutinises the welsh government budget annually , so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies , should it consider that this is required . i do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding , so i urge members to reject these amendments , which i believe are unnecessary . janet finch-saunders am: chair , could i ask a question ? lynne neagle am: you can reply to the debate now , janet , yes . janet finch-saunders am: i 'd like to ask a question of the deputy minister . when we were taking evidence , at an earlier stage , i noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across wales . now , we have 22 local authorities . at that time , the numbers mentioned were quite small—i think only a handful . what discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead , the cabinet members , or , indeed , the head of service ? i can speak from my own experiences , when going around my constituency , but when i 've spoken to some of the family support groups , and , indeed , the departments themselves , they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision . they 're already overstretched , and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden . so , how much have you engaged with them ? julie morgan am: there 's been extensive engagement . we 've had meetings with the association of directors of social services , and they 're represented on all our groups , and we 're working very closely with them , because , of course , they represent all the local authorities . but i have to say , when i 've been going round and meeting lots of different groups , the first thing they say is , ' i 'm so glad that you 're doing this ' , and they have n't mentioned any financial implications . but , obviously , we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up . janet finch-saunders am: okay . so , i 'll still move my amendments . i 'm disappointed , really . i was hoping to see some commitment to—this bill was going to go through , and it 's one that could be implemented fully , because sufficient resources were there . i 'm not convinced about that , and i know that other organisations are not also . so , i move my amendments . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 11 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 11 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 12 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] all those in favour of amendment 12. all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 12 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . i move amendment 4 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 4 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 4 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 4 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 5 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 5 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 5 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 5 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 6 , then , in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 6 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 6 is therefore agreed . this takes us , then , to the fifth and final group , which relates to commencement . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of suzy davies . and i call suzy davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing , but it 's the lead amendment in the group , so i 'll move it to begin the debate . minister , i 'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically . you 've said repeatedly , and i believe you , that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children . you could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement , but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law , where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted , but liability to prosecution , not just liability to civil sanctions . i 'm sure you 'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted , but that decision does not and can not lie with you . you , like us , have no agency in this , because the powers and the duties of the police and the crown prosecution service sit outside our competence . you can not and we can not , by law or otherwise , instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents . you 've acknowledged to this committee and the constitutional and legislative affairs committee that revised cps charging guidance and any other guidance on , for example , out-of-court disposals , are key to delivering your policy objectives . you 'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group , is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like . so , you 're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force , the frequency of the offence , any prior conviction , any prior reporting , not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced , or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals ; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest , let alone charging . and you argue that the rights of the child are what matter , and i agree with you here , but everybody , adult or child , has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure , and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage . now , clac recommended that any revised guidance be made available to ams before stage 3. i anticipate that that 's unlikely , and i hope i 'm wrong , but that 's why janet and i have tabled amendments 10 and 15 , which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that cps guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed . that reflects our recommendation 4 , this committee 's recommendation , as well as clac 's recommendation 1. it gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment , even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded . and you have not addressed these in your own amendments . i have to say , minister , i think these points are so serious that i would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking royal assent for this bill until the assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and cps . i 'd have sought a report stage , if i could , so that we could consider that evidence . but i 'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled , 10 and 15 , so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately can not control once this bill has passed . now , i know you 've got the numbers to pass this bill , whether you accept amendments or not , but i just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a bill that changes a person 's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that , and you 're inviting this assembly to fall into the same trap . i therefore urge the assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . are there other members who wish to speak ? no . janet , do you want to speak ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , i wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. amendment 14 , however , is consequential to amendment 16 passing . amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the welsh government . as was clear during the committee 's evidence sessions , present welsh government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage . for example , the capacity and reach of the healthy child wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising , with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved , with 53.2 per cent of children in wales reported as being contacted . furthermore , existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas , such as flying start , and even the children 's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children . now , the deputy minister mentioned the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents . however , the deputy minister was challenged on this fact , that this is an online campaign only , and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake . consequently , it should be remembered that this bill will affect all parents . therefore , the deputy minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . deputy minister . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i 've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during stage 1. as a result , i have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law . my amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the bill by order of the welsh ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after royal assent . that was done to give certainty on the length of time . up to then , we 'd always said 'up to two years'—well , we 're giving two years . this certainty will allow key partners , including the police , social services and the crown prosecution service , to plan for changes to guidance , training and data-collection systems more effectively . it 'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign . my amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision , which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6 , and we discussed those in the previous group . i 've listened to the arguments put forward by suzy davies and janet finch-saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled . these amendments are all about making the commencement of the bill conditional on something else happening , whether it 's waiting for the revision of crown prosecution service guidance , or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system , or for the provision of parenting support services . and , really , i do n't think that we should be going down that road . as i set out in my letter of response to the stage 1 report from the constitutional and legislative affairs committee , we 've got good working relations with the cps through the strategic implementation group , and we work very closely with them . but the cps are an independent body , as suzy davies has said in her contribution , not answerable to welsh ministers or this legislature , and it 's not appropriate for a minister or the national assembly to seek to influence the cps guidelines . we 're discussing the issues with the cps in the implementation group . and , in fact , i think that these amendments—suzy 's amendments in particular—would n't just seek to influence the cps , but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in wales . so , i do n't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided . i think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship , very close working relationship . and i know they did give evidence to your committee , i believe , the cps . and i think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence , or not , assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty , i think , if we did go down that track , because i think this is very important welsh legislation , which does have broad support across the assembly . and i do n't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation . so , i do n't support those amendments . i think the cps is entirely independent of government , and must be entirely independent of government , and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance . in addition , you suggest we allow the uk government to have a say in when welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the assembly . the test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain . if these amendments passed , it would be very difficult , if not impossible , to judge when section 1 could be commenced . this contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for , and raises huge uncertainty , which potentially jeopardises the bill . and i want to assure you again , not only do we have good working relations with the cps , but also very good working relationships with the police , who are , of course , the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues . the work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the bill 's commencement . in fact , it 's the other way round . my amendment to provide a two-year period between royal assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force . and then , when it comes to parenting support , the committee knows that i 've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support , and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue . i have already said i will expand the age range of the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign , and i think— . i know janet finch-saunders has made the point that it is an online facility . it is very widely used . it is a very successful tool . but , of course , the universal services are also there . for example , the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial , and that is a service that is for every child . and , of course , the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly . and the expert group is considering what it 'll recommend for the future , and it needs the time to be able to do that , to support the bill as well as to support parenting more widely . so , as i said , i think these are important points that you have raised , but i do n't think they are appropriate . so , i therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10 , nor 13 , 14 and 15 . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy to reply to the debate . suzy davies am: thank you very much , and thank you very much , deputy minister , as well . i 'm disappointed that you have n't seen what 's behind janet finch-saunders 's final amendment there , actually . maybe it 's something we 'll raise again with you at stage 3 , or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then . but i want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that i 've raised and your assertion that we 're giving , or attempting to give , power to the cps here . we are not . this amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area . and this is why i go back to where my contribution to this started , and it 's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or , sorry , to try and protect children 's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence . this bill—and , actually , you 've said a couple of times in your response today that it 's important that it 's commenced on a certain date . my argument is : it should n't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence . and , while i claim no mischief on the part of the cps or the police—obviously i don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the cps , should they wish to do it , or indeed the police with their own guidelines , putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence . and , because of that , i ask you to consider , or balance , actually , two important things here : one is the rights of the child , obviously at the forefront of your argument on this , which i would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion ; and , actually , the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you can not allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing . the relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family , but that 's something you ought to protect in what you 're trying to do here , and by leaving it open , as you say , to completely different—sorry , undevolved , two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me . i know this is n't going to stop your bill going forward , but i really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at stage 3 , because leaving , effectively , the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control , despite your great relationship with them , should worry us all as a legislature . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , suzy . do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9 ? suzy davies am: oh , because of the voting order— . yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 9 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 9 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 9 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 13 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 13 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 13 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 13 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 14 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 14 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 14 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 14 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 7 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 7 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 7 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against . amendment 7 is agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 10 ? suzy davies am: yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 10 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 10 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 10 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 15 ? janet finch-saunders am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 15 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 15 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 15 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 16 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 16 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 16 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 16 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 8 , then , in the name of the minister . the question is that amendment 8 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 8 is therefore agreed . well , that has brought us to the end of our amendments , so can i thank the deputy minister and her officials for their attendance ? as usual , you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy . this completes stage 2 proceedings . stage 3 begins tomorrow , and the relevant date of stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course . standing orders make provision for the deputy minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum , taking account of the amendments agreed today . the revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before stage 3 proceedings . thank you very much . julie morgan am: thank you all very much . lynne neagle am: okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the deputy minister for health and social services , following our meeting on 2 october . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services updating the committee on the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' strategy . and paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the deputy minister for health and social services regarding early childhood education and care , following the session that we held on 2 october . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

her amendments 1 and 4 would place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law . she had already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over about six years from royal assent if the bill passed . she thought amendments 1a to 1e which relate to the duty to raise awareness were not necessary . in specific , amendment 1a was open-ended on promoting public awareness . all the raised points would be considered by another group , but she thought the level of the detail on the face of the bill was not needed , and same reasons for amendment 1b and 1d . as for the amendment 1c which was about how to raise concerns , the deputy minister thought the safeguarding was everybody 's business . in conclusion , she asked for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and asked to reject amendments 1a to 1e , as those were unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needed to achieve .

what did janet finch-saunders say for amendments 1a to 1e when discussing the amendments in group 1 that related to the duty to promote public awareness ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask if there are any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill : stage 2 proceedings . i 'm pleased to welcome julie morgan am , deputy minister for health and social services ; karen cornish , deputy director , children and families division at welsh government ; and emma gammon , lawyer for welsh government . thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee . i 'm just going to run through the procedures that we 're going to follow now . as i said , the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . for these proceedings , members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments , the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments . the marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled , marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the bill . the order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is , sections 1 to 3 and the long title . you will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate . however , the order in which they 're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list . members will , therefore , need to follow the two papers , although i will advise members when i call them whether they 're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision . there will be one debate on each group of amendments . members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way . i will call the deputy minister to speak on each group . for the record , in accordance with the convention agreed by the business committee , as chair i will move amendments in the name of the deputy minister . for expediency , i will assume that the deputy minister wishes me to move all of her amendments , and i will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list . deputy minister , if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved , please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings . in line with our usual practice , legal advisers to the committee and the deputy minister are not expected to provide advice on the record . if members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings , please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and , if necessary , we can adjourn . my intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today 's meeting . i will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time , if necessary . okay , thank you . so , we will proceed , then , to group 1 , which is the duty to promote public awareness . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 1 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . my amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the act commences . i tabled these amendments in response to this committee 's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the stage 1 report , so i have responded to that . i 've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from royal assent , should the bill be passed . i 've considered amendments 1a to 1e , which have been tabled by janet finch-saunders , and which relate to the duty to raise awareness . amendment 1a introduces a reference to public understanding . we do n't think , actually , that this adds anything to the government amendment , which already mentions awareness . it makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit , which is not necessary . by commencement , messaging around the change in the law will be embedded . the awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years . therefore , an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required . i understand , of course , that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive , well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change , and understand how to respond to it . but i do n't think it 's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups , such as visitors to wales , on the face of the bill—that 's the approach taken in amendment 1e—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others . in relation to children , the committee will know that i 'm fully committed to children ’ s rights , and that welsh ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions . an additional due regard requirement , such as the one set out in amendment 1d , relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed . this would be part and parcel of the welsh government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making . similarly , i do n't think it 's necessary for the bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign , as is suggested in amendments 1b and 1c . that level of detail , i do n't think , is for the face of the bill . information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group , under the auspices of the bill ’ s strategic implementation group , working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign . and , really , their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the bill . i think we always need to bear in mind that what the bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence ; it does not create a new offence . and in this context , it does n't make sense for this bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished . as i set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point , safeguarding is everyone ’ s business , and , as now , the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child . i 'm asking for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and i ask members to reject amendments 1a to 1e because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . are there other members who wish to speak ? janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i wish to speak to amendments 1a to 1e , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness . while we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law , the deputy minister 's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. an important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that i 've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign , which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the bill , but serves as a duty for future administrations . amendment 1a : primarily , amendment 1a changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . i do n't think it 's enough for the welsh government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the welsh government 's objectives have been achieved . despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour , the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors . instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence , this law will remove a defence for parents , information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives , potentially separate parents , and could affect employment chances . as such , whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign , it is important too that the welsh government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign . the witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: janet , dawn is asking if you 'll take an intervention . janet finch-saunders am: yes . dawn bowden am: i just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there 's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it 's been passed ? janet finch-saunders am: there 's a lot of legislation . the first assembly term when i was here— dawn bowden am: yes , what i 'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: i 'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: what i 'm asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? janet finch-saunders am: the very first term that i was an assembly member , we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation . even today , as i sit here , the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation . this particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in wales . so , therefore , i think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved , and i shall speak now— dawn bowden am: with respect , chair , that 's not the question i asked . janet finch-saunders am: —to my amendments . lynne neagle am: i can call you in the debate , if you 'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this . yes . janet finch-saunders am: the witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications . and that 's what we 're talking about here , members—the implications of removing this defence . strikingly , the office of police and crime commissioner for gwent stated the following : 'the potential for public resistance to the bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation . ' if you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment , it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this bill . additionally , the committee found that while the current welsh government 's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt , future governments may have less of a commitment . this places further weight on the fact that the welsh government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the bill beyond its commencement . furthermore , the children ( equal protection from assault ) ( scotland ) bill quite clearly notes that , under section 2 , the scottish ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister can respond as to the reasons why the welsh government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment . [ interruption . ] should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: are you taking an intervention ? janet finch-saunders am: no . i 'd rather crack on , to be honest . lynne neagle am: okay . i can call you in the debate , hefin . janet finch-saunders am: should our amendment to be agreed , we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. amendment 1b : amendment 1b is in line with the committee 's recommendation 9 , which stated that , as part of a public awareness campaign , there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children . during evidence at stage 1 , the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence . for example , children in wales , action for children and play wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support . welsh government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need . now , while the deputy minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information , a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future welsh governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign . i note the deputy minister accepted the recommendation , through our amendment , but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents . as will be expanded upon later , the deputy minister has relied upon the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising . however , this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups . amendment 1c : amendment 1c supports the committee 's recommendation 15 that explains that the welsh government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted . we urged , at stage 1 , that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment , regardless of the bill , other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded . in particular , some were worried that children , who may not realise the implications of reporting , could make allegations that are actually untrue . while we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations , this could also be reflected among adults , if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault . lynne neagle am: thank you . i 've got several speakers . i 've got suzy davies first , then dawn bowden . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . thank you minister , and thank you , janet , for that . i think it 's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by janet there are based on committee recommendations , and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large , but also you as well . so , that suggests that , at that stage , we were n't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report . now , i recognise that you 've moved some way on some of these amendments , and we 'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups . but the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation , now—that means that this is the instrument of the assembly , not of government , and if this assembly feels that the face of the bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign , then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign . the list that janet has given is a minimum . the reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be , so it will be disappointing to hear that you 're rejecting them all , and the reason they need to go on the face of the bill is that , if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation , at the moment we have no reassurance about how you 're going to do that—about what input the assembly , on behalf of our constituents , could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign . unless you accept some amendments in other groups , that is the position with this bill : the influence of the assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign . in terms of it being non-time limited , i think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting , never-ending campaign of awareness raising . but if you bear in mind that , seven years after the introduction of this bill , there 's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the bill , what is the point of doing that if you do n't then have an obligation , should the reports require it to be necessary , to continue promoting the changes in the law ? i accept that that ca n't go on for centuries , but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive , and which has a reach beyond our boundaries , i think is genuinely a mistake . finally , you mention that safeguarding is everyone 's business . i think that 's true , but i think janet finch-saunders was right to say that members of the public , ordinary individuals , not professionals , will need assurance that they 're doing the right thing . the amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that , although that can be read in that way , but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing . if this is going to be up to the individual , as you 've said , and the committee itself was n't reassured that individuals would know what to do , perhaps i can ask you to consider at stage 3 , if you 're going to reject this amendment , how you can reassure members of the public that , if they are going to intervene on the back of this law , they 're making things better , not worse . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . dawn . dawn bowden am: my comments , really , relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns , which i think all of us would want to see , and would appreciate in any changes in legislation . my point , really , is that we have a plethora of legislation that this assembly has passed in the last 20 years , and i 'm not aware of any legislation where , on the face of the bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis . it seems to me that , for some reason , you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation . from what the deputy minister is saying—and perhaps i will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign . that awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it . it could also , i assume , deputy minister , be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use . but the point i 'm trying to make is that i do n't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns , and particularly in relation to visitors to wales . again , we have other pieces of legislation in wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the uk . i am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do n't . and similarly , when we go to visit countries that have different legislation , we do n't necessarily know what legislation we 're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws . so , my key point , chair , is just the necessity of an ongoing , endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , dawn . hefin . hefin david am: my comments follow logically from dawn bowden 's comments , particularly in relation to amendments 1d and 1e . what you would be doing is that this senedd , if this was on the face of the bill , the duty on ministers , would be putting the duty on ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth senedd , into the next senedd term , and putting that duty on those newly elected ministers after that , which , in principle , would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: hefin , are you taking an intervention from suzy ? hefin david am: yes , happy to . suzy davies am: when you 've finished your point . hefin david am: i 'm happy to take it now , because i was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made , actually . suzy davies am: i 'd love that . you referred to this potentially binding ministers in future assemblies ; at the moment , we 've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this act into the assembly after next . i 'm wondering if you 're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on . hefin david am: well , when we get to that amendment , i 'll make comments if i feel it necessary . but at this point in time , we 're talking about amendments 1d and 1e , and particularly in relation to 1d and 1e it just is n't necessary , given the fact that—i wo n't call it a concession , because i think you made a reasonable point about the minister making a statement at stage 3 , and i think dawn bowden actually supported that as well . that , therefore , makes those amendments unnecessary . given that , in these circumstances , it is unnecessary to bind ministers in future parliaments . and that 's my key point , really , which is why i would n't vote for those two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you . siân . sian gwenllian am: thank you very much . i just want to speak against amendment 1a and also amendment 1b . i do n't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign , as is outlined in 1a . i agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change , and therefore i 'm very glad to see that the government has brought forward amendment 1 , and i do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change . in terms of amendment 1b , i do have sympathy with what is being said here , but i believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the government , through various programmes , and it should not be an addition on the face of this bill , which deals with a small change to the common law . and then , on 1d also , if i may—i do n't agree with this either . again , i believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children , but that should happen through the children 's rights convention , as part of a broader programme to promote children 's rights . lynne neagle am: thank you , siân . i call on the deputy minister to speak , then . julie morgan am: thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today . i just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the bill , and i absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the bill . i 'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee 's interest and the work that you 've done in this area of work . but i do think that these amendments are unnecessary . if we go through them , amendment 1a is really open-ended on promoting public awareness . we 're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from royal assent , and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign . all the points that you 've been making will be being considered by that group . i think the level of detail on the face of the bill is not needed . suzy davies am: okay . would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? a two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: six-year . suzy davies am: i thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force . julie morgan am: we 've got six years from royal assent . suzy davies am: oh , so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: yes . oh yes , it 's going to continue . suzy davies am: that 's very helpful . julie morgan am: definitely , yes . so , i do n't think that 's needed , amendment 1a . amendment 1b , about support available to parents and how to access it—again , this level of detail is not required on the face of the bill . i just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group , who are working on all aspects of this bill , many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee . the bill is a simple one , with a clear purpose . it aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment . i think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting , but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development , and they 're not required on the face of the bill . so , i 'm not putting them down , i 'm just saying that we do n't need them to be there on the face of the bill . and then amendment 1c—the information about how to raise concerns—i do repeat that safeguarding is everybody 's business , and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed . amendment 1d—ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now , children 's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making , and the entire bill is about protecting the rights of children . so , it is unnecessary duplication . so , we hope that the bill will remain focused . again , in terms of visitors , the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the bill . our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive . and then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised , revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of stage 3. so , there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment . the issue that was raised about the scottish bill , that it refers to 'understanding'—now , the scottish bill was not a government bill , it was a private member 's bill , and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding ' ; 'awareness ' is sufficient . so , basically , i think that the points made have been very useful , but i urge committee members to accept my amendments , but to reject those proposed by janet finch-saunders , as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 1 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1a ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection . i therefore take a vote by show of hands . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . all those in favour , please raise your hands . all those against . there voted two in favour , four against . so , amendment 1a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1b ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 1b be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1b . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 1b is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . all those in favour of amendment 1c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1c is not agreed . janet , do you want to move amendment 1d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1d be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , as there 's an objection , i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1d , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1d is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1e ? janet finch-saunders am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . the question is that amendment 1e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1e is not agreed . if amendment 1 is not agreed , amendment 2c and amendment 4 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . i move amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 1 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection , so we 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1. all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 1 is agreed . we 'll move on now then to group 2 , which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 , in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 2 in the deputy minister 's name , and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments , and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . the amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the bill , and i believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee , so you strongly influenced this amendment . it 's clear from members ' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment . i 've already provided assurance that i agree with the importance placed on such a review , both in the explanatory memorandum and during stage 1 scrutiny . i also made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . i have done this with amendment 2. amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after royal assent . as i said in my responses to the stage 1 committee report , and as set out in the explanatory memorandum , the post-implementation review of this bill will not be a single piece of work , but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. firstly , we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys , which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment . the surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign . secondly , through a dedicated task and finish group , we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the bill and to consider the possible impact on services . turning to amendment 2c , this amendment would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced . this amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what i think is a priority for the implementation of this bill : that is , given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders . i also think this amendment is not required because , as i 've already stated , we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising . in june , i shared the findings of a representative survey , which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation . i shared this with the committee . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . i open it up for discussion now , then . janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i speak to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment . again , i must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outline what we would expect to be within this report , and we would wish to see a commitment from the deputy minister to ensure the national assembly for wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report . amendment 2c requests that the welsh government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the assembly before section 1 commences . as i have outlined under my amendments in group 1 , the understanding of the public about the implications of the bill can not be sidelined . although the deputy minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign , we , as the national assembly for wales , must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins . as i noted under amendments 1b to 1e , there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the bill 's effect . i 'm sure that the deputy minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness . it is , therefore , important for the assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people . as will also be elaborated under amendment 2d , it is extremely important that we , as the parliament of wales , are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact . before we implement what will be a criminal offence , it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign 's effects before section 1 commences . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . deputy minister , first of all , can i just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2b ? i 'll come to that a little bit later , if i may . i just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you 'll be rejecting amendment 2c here . i actually do n't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all . it 's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that 's in the draft bill at the moment . so , failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well , rather than anything intrinsic in the bill , so i 'm not sure i can accept your argument on that . and , on 2d—very pleased to hear that you 'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying ' rather than 'publishing ' at stage 3 , but , in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature , perhaps i could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage , because it does n't make any difference . your amendment is going to pass , and this amendment to it would be—i think the gesture there would be very much appreciated . i 'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2a and 2b , but i want to begin , again , by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the bill on the issue of reporting , because i know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity ; you mentioned it earlier . but this is not a newid bychan , i 'm afraid , siân ; the terms and the effect of this bill are quite extensive , and it does need the reassurances , if you like , necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this bill on families where parents ' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute . it does need statutory underpinning . so , i am grateful to you for accepting this duty . i know that you 're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment , and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear . but , if this were me bringing forward this bill , i think i 'd want to show the world that i was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do . amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed . there are acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that . if you 're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change , and i think that is what you 're expecting—you know , showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment , reducing the number of , and indeed the likelihood of , parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—i really would have thought you 'd want people to know sooner , or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that . waiting five years , i think , will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years , and this is why i 'm grateful to you for your offer , because there may be a way where we can overcome that . if the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so , basically , in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that 's great , but there 's a possibility it 's going to reverse . again , i do n't think i 'd want to wait five years to find that out . for myself , i think one year would probably be enough , but i think three years is a reasonable compromise , as opposed to five years , for a reporting period . i think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a bill 's effectiveness . i ca n't see the reason for quite that length of time—i know you 've talked about new zealand—but neither can the constitutional and legislative affairs committee . i think that 's worth pointing out . when they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report , they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny . that 's something i think we perhaps need to bear in mind now , as we enter this period of the consolidation of law . five/seven years is really something of an outlier , and while that might have been appropriate , perhaps , in new zealand , i do n't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in wales , and , of course , there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years , and i note that you have n't drawn on them in order to support your argument . so , can i urge members and the minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? i do n't think it 's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point , hefin—that we not only wo n't hear in this assembly , we wo n't hear in the next assembly , about the formal evaluation of this , unless i follow— hefin david am: i wo n't intervene ; i 'll speak . suzy davies am: is that okay ? hefin david am: yes , i 'll make the point . lynne neagle am: okay , i 've got— suzy davies am: yes , i 'll take the intervention . lynne neagle am: no , he does n't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: i wo n't do an intervention ; i 'll speak . lynne neagle am: —he 'll make a contribution . suzy davies am: oh , apologies— hefin david am: just to say— suzy davies am: i 'll wait . hefin david am: well , let me put the intervention— . i 'll do it as an intervention , then . i just feel that—i take your point , and i was expecting it . the point i was making about 1d and 1e is they close down choices to ministers in future assemblies . an evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future parliaments more options with regard to this bill , so i think it 's entirely consistent . i do n't think the minister , in putting in amendment 2 , was trying to undermine my argument . actually , i think she 's being constructive by doing that , and i think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that 's quite helpful , and its consequence will be to open up choices to future parliaments , whereas my objection to 1d and 1e is they close those down . suzy davies am: okay , well , as i say , i think , actually , the deputy minister 's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this . because i 'm not 100 per cent sure i accept your argument , either , because it closes it down for the interim period if we do n't move on with the deputy minister 's suggestion—which i 'll talk about now , actually . because i am tempted to accept your offer . it absolutely makes sense and it 's clearly made with the best good faith here . but i need some clarity on what you would allow this assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report . because you 've been very clear that you do n't want to accept the things that janet finch-saunders has been talking about in a final report , and yet i can tell you we want to hear about these things . so , if you 're in a position where you can give a commitment at stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report , but that you will consult with , perhaps , this committee—i 'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report , what we would want to see tested , then i 'll be minded not to move amendment 2b . if you ca n't give me that reassurance , then i 'm going to move it anyway and we 'll return to it at stage 3 , if you do n't mind . just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable , and i do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to . again , at stage 3 , i 'm happy if you want to make three months six months , or something like that , but 'as soon as practicable ' is open ended , and what you think is practicable may be very different from what i or my constituents think is practicable . so , i do n't want to stick with what is practicable ; i would like you to put a date on this . if it 's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties , i think that 's fairly reasonable as well , but i 'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes , i welcome adding to the bill through amendment 2 , and what you 've said today also , that you 're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the bill , and to lay a report before the assembly . i am interested in what suzy is saying , and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods , and not say 'when it will be practicable ' . therefore , i would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the minister regarding these issues . suzy davies am: i would like to . thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . any other members ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: well , just to start off on that point , i think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss , i think i 'm very happy to accept that . so , i 'm happy to discuss that with you , and with the committee , before the third stage . so , i hope you will consider removing— . suzy davies am: no , genuinely i am . julie morgan am: right , thank you . well , just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised , on the issue of training now , i think janet raised a number of points about training , and we do have an operations , procedures , processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work , and they are considering guidance and training requirements . there are many professional bodies represented on that group , many of whom i think have given evidence here today , and they 've really got a chance to have their say . the officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at stage 3 , so there will be more information about training there . but we have this group looking at it , and it is very key . generally , i think that all the contributions are very helpful , and i know they 're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation . i ca n't support amendments 2a , 2c , and amendments 2e to 2k , because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the bill already , or they 're covered by the government amendments that i 've moved . but i do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough , multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services . now , tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points , so there 's no question there of having to wait ; we 'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes . suzy davies am: would you take an intervention there , deputy minister ? thank you very much . of course , i appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments , but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? so , even if this is not a statutory commitment , what exactly from our list , our wish list here , would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? julie morgan am: well , i would actually have thought all of them . all the areas you 've raised are very relevant , i think . obviously , this is not a statutory thing i 'm saying , but— suzy davies am: no , no , and this is not a— julie morgan am: yes , but considering those points you 've put forward , i think all of them have got a great deal of relevance . we will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you 've suggested and , in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group , which is about developing methods to collect data , we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you 've made on those issues . so , i do n't see any problem with that at all . suzy davies am: thank you . julie morgan am: so , as i say , i ca n't support the amendments . i 'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—i think one of yours and it was one of janet 's , was n't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage . because i am sympathetic to your views on these matters , and i think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well . so , i 'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at stage 3. in line with the recommendations of the finance committee , further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at stage 3. so , i think at this point i would ask that members reject the non-government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 , which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the bill , with the exception , obviously , of those two amendments , which i 'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 2 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2c is lost . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2a ? suzy davies am: i move amendment 2a , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2a , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: janet , do you wish to move amendment 2e ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2e is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2f ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2f be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2f ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2f is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2g ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2g be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , can i see all those in favour of amendment 2g ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2g is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2h ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2h be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2h ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2h is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2i ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2i be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . can i see all those in favour of amendment 2i ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2i is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2j ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2j be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . can i see all those in favour of 2j ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2j is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2k ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2k be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i 'll therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2k ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2k is not agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2b ? suzy davies am: in view of the deputy minister 's reassurances , i wo n't move this amendment today , but obviously i reserve the right to bring something back if we ca n't reach consensus . thank you . lynne neagle am: does any other member wish to move amendment 2b ? okay , no . thank you . we 'll move on , then . if amendment 2 is not agreed , amendment 5 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 2 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 2— suzy davies am: objection . lynne neagle am: you 're objecting ? suzy davies am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . right , we 'll therefore take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 2 is agreed . that takes us on to group 3 , which relates to the regulation-making powers in the bill . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 3 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . members will note that i 've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the bill , which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment . and that is going to be debated under group 5. so , we 're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here , basically . as a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a welsh minister to make an order for commencement , the power to make transitory , transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the bill coming into force would also be removed . so , i 'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the bill ; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it , and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after royal assent . in fact , removing the power for the welsh ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended . these amendments are technical in nature and while i acknowledge that the constitutional and legislative affairs committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied , their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied . the absence of an assembly procedure does not mean that ministers ' decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the assembly . any concerns about the welsh ministers ' proposals could be put to me in the senedd . this was a point made to clac and , as i say , their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power . for those reasons , i encourage members to reject amendment 3a from suzy . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . well perhaps , deputy minister , i can begin by saying that one person 's technical issue is another person 's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny . but i thank you for noting the assembly 's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this bill—this time by clac , as you say . moving this—and i 'm glad actually that amendment 8 , i think it was , has removed an order provision and we 're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here . i have to say that amendment 3a is something of a probing amendment , and i 'll explain why now . your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 , but it 's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it 's not a separate commencement power . and , actually , i 've been listening to the rest of this debate , and thinking that , if you 're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report , the chances are you 're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas , i think . and i 'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory , transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this bill . i 'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented , bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original , very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft . as i say , in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 i tabled this , in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 , when it comes into effect , onto the floor of the assembly . because while i completely accept that you 've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on , it 's still possible to do that without procedure , and so i have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure . amendment 3a is a holding position , which we will return to you in stage 3 , because i think , again , this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you 're looking for , because i think you probably need something that 's beyond transitional , transitory and saving . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , have you finished ? suzy davies am: yes , thank you very much . lynne neagle am: are there any other members who wish to speak on this group ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: i thank suzy for that input . we do n't actually think it 's necessary to have wider powers , but we will keep this under review and at stage 3 , i think that— . when i was looking at this , i was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage , but i can understand that there may be links to other bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers . so , basically , i do n't think it is necessary to have wider powers , but i can assure you that we 'll keep that in review coming up to stage 3 . suzy davies am: can i just ask a question on the back of that ? lynne neagle am: will you take a brief intervention at the end , minister ? suzy davies am: will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? julie morgan am: i was going to end there , yes . suzy davies am: right , okay , well , just before your full stop , would you just confirm that you 're happy for us to discuss this before stage 3 ? julie morgan am: yes , very happy . yes . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . before disposing of amendment 3 , we will deal with the amendment to that amendment . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 3a ? suzy davies am: i 'll move it , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 3a . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 3a is not agreed . if amendment 3 is not agreed , amendment 6 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 3 is therefore agreed . the committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. can i welcome members back ? we will move on to group 4 , which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of janet finch-saunders . i call on janet finch-saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i speak to both amendments in this group . as i outlined under amendments 2i and 2j , there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment . now , it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic . as i have mentioned previously , these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services . furthermore , the welsh local government association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are , those costs are met , because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . now , during evidence , the deputy minister , when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate . ' but you could n't commit to a broad figure , instead telling us that : 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us . ' and : 'we have to measure it as we go along . ' given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes , we only think it is fair for the welsh government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this bill . now , while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards , i note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by welsh government . anticipating the deputy minister 's response that few under this category , if any at all , would be affected by the bill , we are pursuing a principle here , and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the deputy minister . now , these are just two examples of welsh government legislation to date that have been underfunded . the active travel ( wales ) act 2013 : last year , the economy , infrastructure and skills committee found that the wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of england 's and one sixth of holland 's . furthermore , the committee highlighted that the passing of the act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes , but were constrained by the funding made available to them . the minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million . now , my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel act to become a meaningful piece of legislation , and the same goes with the well-being of future generations ( wales ) act 2015. this month , the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding . outside of the welsh government 's regional grant that can not be spent on projects , councils often contribute through officer time or facilities , but resources and capacity to support those psbs remain a key risk , as partners do n't have the capacity to take on more . the reason that i wanted these amendments placed in here is i genuinely do not believe that you 've even envisioned what , or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations , and certainly our local authorities and health boards , the impact this bill is going to have . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . are there other members who would like to speak in this group , please ? no . okay . i call the deputy minister , then . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i can understand that the member is concerned about the impact of this bill on public services , but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the bill that we 've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this bill before introduction . and as far as we 're aware , no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation , and also comprehensively prepared for implementation . we 've explored the published data , which is available from other countries , on the impact of measures they 've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children . we 've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in ireland , new zealand and malta , who have legal systems similar to our own . and in these countries , there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform . and stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs , and i think we should trust their judgment on this . in fact , as this committee notes in its stage 1 report , those delivering services on the front line have said , without exception , that 'this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in wales because it will make the law clear . ' sally jenkins of the association of directors of social services said to this committee : 'in terms of thresholds for children ’ s services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that ’ s likely to happen . ' that 's from the front line . jane randall , chair of the national independent safeguarding board wales , said : 'there 's no expectation that there 's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services , i think it would be dealt with within their existing resources . ' and dr rowena christmas , royal college of general practitioners , said : ' i ca n't see it 's going to lengthen consultations . i ca n't see that it 's going to increase the number of consultations , and i do n't think it 's going to increase the number of referrals i make to the health visitor or to social services , because if i was worried , i 'd make those referrals now regardless of the bill . ' i just want to say again that the bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault , which has formed part of the common law of england and wales for a very long time . and social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted , including from health and education , so it 's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them . i do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points . as i 've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments , we 're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services , and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation . welsh government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications . i can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued , and i 've asked officials to prepare a revised ria , as recommended at stage 2 , and i expect to share an updated ria with you in advance of stage 3. serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the bill , but i think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given , particularly to this committee , from the professionals at the front line . what the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within government , and it 's not clear why , in the context of the evidence heard at stage i , such provisions are necessary . i 'm sure that members will agree that future governments need to be able to consider , within the context of the budget-setting process , what the priorities are , and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time , for example taking into account any issues that there are—uk government actions , what happens in relation to brexit , or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or welsh society . all those issues would have to be taken into account . furthermore , as is the case now , the national assembly for wales scrutinises the welsh government budget annually , so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies , should it consider that this is required . i do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding , so i urge members to reject these amendments , which i believe are unnecessary . janet finch-saunders am: chair , could i ask a question ? lynne neagle am: you can reply to the debate now , janet , yes . janet finch-saunders am: i 'd like to ask a question of the deputy minister . when we were taking evidence , at an earlier stage , i noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across wales . now , we have 22 local authorities . at that time , the numbers mentioned were quite small—i think only a handful . what discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead , the cabinet members , or , indeed , the head of service ? i can speak from my own experiences , when going around my constituency , but when i 've spoken to some of the family support groups , and , indeed , the departments themselves , they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision . they 're already overstretched , and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden . so , how much have you engaged with them ? julie morgan am: there 's been extensive engagement . we 've had meetings with the association of directors of social services , and they 're represented on all our groups , and we 're working very closely with them , because , of course , they represent all the local authorities . but i have to say , when i 've been going round and meeting lots of different groups , the first thing they say is , ' i 'm so glad that you 're doing this ' , and they have n't mentioned any financial implications . but , obviously , we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up . janet finch-saunders am: okay . so , i 'll still move my amendments . i 'm disappointed , really . i was hoping to see some commitment to—this bill was going to go through , and it 's one that could be implemented fully , because sufficient resources were there . i 'm not convinced about that , and i know that other organisations are not also . so , i move my amendments . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 11 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 11 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 12 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] all those in favour of amendment 12. all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 12 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . i move amendment 4 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 4 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 4 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 4 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 5 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 5 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 5 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 5 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 6 , then , in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 6 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 6 is therefore agreed . this takes us , then , to the fifth and final group , which relates to commencement . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of suzy davies . and i call suzy davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing , but it 's the lead amendment in the group , so i 'll move it to begin the debate . minister , i 'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically . you 've said repeatedly , and i believe you , that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children . you could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement , but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law , where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted , but liability to prosecution , not just liability to civil sanctions . i 'm sure you 'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted , but that decision does not and can not lie with you . you , like us , have no agency in this , because the powers and the duties of the police and the crown prosecution service sit outside our competence . you can not and we can not , by law or otherwise , instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents . you 've acknowledged to this committee and the constitutional and legislative affairs committee that revised cps charging guidance and any other guidance on , for example , out-of-court disposals , are key to delivering your policy objectives . you 'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group , is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like . so , you 're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force , the frequency of the offence , any prior conviction , any prior reporting , not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced , or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals ; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest , let alone charging . and you argue that the rights of the child are what matter , and i agree with you here , but everybody , adult or child , has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure , and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage . now , clac recommended that any revised guidance be made available to ams before stage 3. i anticipate that that 's unlikely , and i hope i 'm wrong , but that 's why janet and i have tabled amendments 10 and 15 , which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that cps guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed . that reflects our recommendation 4 , this committee 's recommendation , as well as clac 's recommendation 1. it gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment , even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded . and you have not addressed these in your own amendments . i have to say , minister , i think these points are so serious that i would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking royal assent for this bill until the assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and cps . i 'd have sought a report stage , if i could , so that we could consider that evidence . but i 'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled , 10 and 15 , so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately can not control once this bill has passed . now , i know you 've got the numbers to pass this bill , whether you accept amendments or not , but i just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a bill that changes a person 's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that , and you 're inviting this assembly to fall into the same trap . i therefore urge the assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . are there other members who wish to speak ? no . janet , do you want to speak ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , i wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. amendment 14 , however , is consequential to amendment 16 passing . amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the welsh government . as was clear during the committee 's evidence sessions , present welsh government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage . for example , the capacity and reach of the healthy child wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising , with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved , with 53.2 per cent of children in wales reported as being contacted . furthermore , existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas , such as flying start , and even the children 's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children . now , the deputy minister mentioned the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents . however , the deputy minister was challenged on this fact , that this is an online campaign only , and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake . consequently , it should be remembered that this bill will affect all parents . therefore , the deputy minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . deputy minister . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i 've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during stage 1. as a result , i have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law . my amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the bill by order of the welsh ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after royal assent . that was done to give certainty on the length of time . up to then , we 'd always said 'up to two years'—well , we 're giving two years . this certainty will allow key partners , including the police , social services and the crown prosecution service , to plan for changes to guidance , training and data-collection systems more effectively . it 'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign . my amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision , which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6 , and we discussed those in the previous group . i 've listened to the arguments put forward by suzy davies and janet finch-saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled . these amendments are all about making the commencement of the bill conditional on something else happening , whether it 's waiting for the revision of crown prosecution service guidance , or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system , or for the provision of parenting support services . and , really , i do n't think that we should be going down that road . as i set out in my letter of response to the stage 1 report from the constitutional and legislative affairs committee , we 've got good working relations with the cps through the strategic implementation group , and we work very closely with them . but the cps are an independent body , as suzy davies has said in her contribution , not answerable to welsh ministers or this legislature , and it 's not appropriate for a minister or the national assembly to seek to influence the cps guidelines . we 're discussing the issues with the cps in the implementation group . and , in fact , i think that these amendments—suzy 's amendments in particular—would n't just seek to influence the cps , but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in wales . so , i do n't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided . i think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship , very close working relationship . and i know they did give evidence to your committee , i believe , the cps . and i think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence , or not , assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty , i think , if we did go down that track , because i think this is very important welsh legislation , which does have broad support across the assembly . and i do n't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation . so , i do n't support those amendments . i think the cps is entirely independent of government , and must be entirely independent of government , and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance . in addition , you suggest we allow the uk government to have a say in when welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the assembly . the test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain . if these amendments passed , it would be very difficult , if not impossible , to judge when section 1 could be commenced . this contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for , and raises huge uncertainty , which potentially jeopardises the bill . and i want to assure you again , not only do we have good working relations with the cps , but also very good working relationships with the police , who are , of course , the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues . the work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the bill 's commencement . in fact , it 's the other way round . my amendment to provide a two-year period between royal assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force . and then , when it comes to parenting support , the committee knows that i 've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support , and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue . i have already said i will expand the age range of the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign , and i think— . i know janet finch-saunders has made the point that it is an online facility . it is very widely used . it is a very successful tool . but , of course , the universal services are also there . for example , the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial , and that is a service that is for every child . and , of course , the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly . and the expert group is considering what it 'll recommend for the future , and it needs the time to be able to do that , to support the bill as well as to support parenting more widely . so , as i said , i think these are important points that you have raised , but i do n't think they are appropriate . so , i therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10 , nor 13 , 14 and 15 . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy to reply to the debate . suzy davies am: thank you very much , and thank you very much , deputy minister , as well . i 'm disappointed that you have n't seen what 's behind janet finch-saunders 's final amendment there , actually . maybe it 's something we 'll raise again with you at stage 3 , or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then . but i want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that i 've raised and your assertion that we 're giving , or attempting to give , power to the cps here . we are not . this amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area . and this is why i go back to where my contribution to this started , and it 's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or , sorry , to try and protect children 's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence . this bill—and , actually , you 've said a couple of times in your response today that it 's important that it 's commenced on a certain date . my argument is : it should n't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence . and , while i claim no mischief on the part of the cps or the police—obviously i don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the cps , should they wish to do it , or indeed the police with their own guidelines , putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence . and , because of that , i ask you to consider , or balance , actually , two important things here : one is the rights of the child , obviously at the forefront of your argument on this , which i would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion ; and , actually , the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you can not allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing . the relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family , but that 's something you ought to protect in what you 're trying to do here , and by leaving it open , as you say , to completely different—sorry , undevolved , two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me . i know this is n't going to stop your bill going forward , but i really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at stage 3 , because leaving , effectively , the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control , despite your great relationship with them , should worry us all as a legislature . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , suzy . do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9 ? suzy davies am: oh , because of the voting order— . yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 9 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 9 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 9 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 13 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 13 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 13 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 13 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 14 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 14 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 14 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 14 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 7 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 7 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 7 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against . amendment 7 is agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 10 ? suzy davies am: yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 10 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 10 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 10 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 15 ? janet finch-saunders am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 15 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 15 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 15 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 16 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 16 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 16 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 16 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 8 , then , in the name of the minister . the question is that amendment 8 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 8 is therefore agreed . well , that has brought us to the end of our amendments , so can i thank the deputy minister and her officials for their attendance ? as usual , you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy . this completes stage 2 proceedings . stage 3 begins tomorrow , and the relevant date of stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course . standing orders make provision for the deputy minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum , taking account of the amendments agreed today . the revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before stage 3 proceedings . thank you very much . julie morgan am: thank you all very much . lynne neagle am: okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the deputy minister for health and social services , following our meeting on 2 october . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services updating the committee on the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' strategy . and paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the deputy minister for health and social services regarding early childhood education and care , following the session that we held on 2 october . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

while it was imperative that the public were made aware of this controversial change in the law , she thought the deputy minister 's amendment lacked a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. for example , amendment 1a changed amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . amendment 1b stated that there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when discipline their children , which she thought was very important to parents . amendment 1c explained that the welsh government should ensure clear advice was provided on what people could do if they had seen a child being physically assaulted , and this could help raise public awareness of how they could report and in what situations they could report .

summarize their discussions on the amendments related to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask if there are any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill : stage 2 proceedings . i 'm pleased to welcome julie morgan am , deputy minister for health and social services ; karen cornish , deputy director , children and families division at welsh government ; and emma gammon , lawyer for welsh government . thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee . i 'm just going to run through the procedures that we 're going to follow now . as i said , the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . for these proceedings , members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments , the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments . the marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled , marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the bill . the order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is , sections 1 to 3 and the long title . you will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate . however , the order in which they 're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list . members will , therefore , need to follow the two papers , although i will advise members when i call them whether they 're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision . there will be one debate on each group of amendments . members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way . i will call the deputy minister to speak on each group . for the record , in accordance with the convention agreed by the business committee , as chair i will move amendments in the name of the deputy minister . for expediency , i will assume that the deputy minister wishes me to move all of her amendments , and i will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list . deputy minister , if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved , please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings . in line with our usual practice , legal advisers to the committee and the deputy minister are not expected to provide advice on the record . if members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings , please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and , if necessary , we can adjourn . my intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today 's meeting . i will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time , if necessary . okay , thank you . so , we will proceed , then , to group 1 , which is the duty to promote public awareness . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 1 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . my amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the act commences . i tabled these amendments in response to this committee 's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the stage 1 report , so i have responded to that . i 've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from royal assent , should the bill be passed . i 've considered amendments 1a to 1e , which have been tabled by janet finch-saunders , and which relate to the duty to raise awareness . amendment 1a introduces a reference to public understanding . we do n't think , actually , that this adds anything to the government amendment , which already mentions awareness . it makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit , which is not necessary . by commencement , messaging around the change in the law will be embedded . the awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years . therefore , an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required . i understand , of course , that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive , well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change , and understand how to respond to it . but i do n't think it 's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups , such as visitors to wales , on the face of the bill—that 's the approach taken in amendment 1e—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others . in relation to children , the committee will know that i 'm fully committed to children ’ s rights , and that welsh ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions . an additional due regard requirement , such as the one set out in amendment 1d , relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed . this would be part and parcel of the welsh government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making . similarly , i do n't think it 's necessary for the bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign , as is suggested in amendments 1b and 1c . that level of detail , i do n't think , is for the face of the bill . information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group , under the auspices of the bill ’ s strategic implementation group , working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign . and , really , their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the bill . i think we always need to bear in mind that what the bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence ; it does not create a new offence . and in this context , it does n't make sense for this bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished . as i set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point , safeguarding is everyone ’ s business , and , as now , the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child . i 'm asking for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and i ask members to reject amendments 1a to 1e because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . are there other members who wish to speak ? janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i wish to speak to amendments 1a to 1e , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness . while we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law , the deputy minister 's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. an important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that i 've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign , which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the bill , but serves as a duty for future administrations . amendment 1a : primarily , amendment 1a changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . i do n't think it 's enough for the welsh government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the welsh government 's objectives have been achieved . despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour , the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors . instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence , this law will remove a defence for parents , information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives , potentially separate parents , and could affect employment chances . as such , whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign , it is important too that the welsh government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign . the witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: janet , dawn is asking if you 'll take an intervention . janet finch-saunders am: yes . dawn bowden am: i just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there 's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it 's been passed ? janet finch-saunders am: there 's a lot of legislation . the first assembly term when i was here— dawn bowden am: yes , what i 'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: i 'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: what i 'm asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? janet finch-saunders am: the very first term that i was an assembly member , we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation . even today , as i sit here , the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation . this particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in wales . so , therefore , i think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved , and i shall speak now— dawn bowden am: with respect , chair , that 's not the question i asked . janet finch-saunders am: —to my amendments . lynne neagle am: i can call you in the debate , if you 'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this . yes . janet finch-saunders am: the witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications . and that 's what we 're talking about here , members—the implications of removing this defence . strikingly , the office of police and crime commissioner for gwent stated the following : 'the potential for public resistance to the bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation . ' if you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment , it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this bill . additionally , the committee found that while the current welsh government 's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt , future governments may have less of a commitment . this places further weight on the fact that the welsh government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the bill beyond its commencement . furthermore , the children ( equal protection from assault ) ( scotland ) bill quite clearly notes that , under section 2 , the scottish ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister can respond as to the reasons why the welsh government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment . [ interruption . ] should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: are you taking an intervention ? janet finch-saunders am: no . i 'd rather crack on , to be honest . lynne neagle am: okay . i can call you in the debate , hefin . janet finch-saunders am: should our amendment to be agreed , we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. amendment 1b : amendment 1b is in line with the committee 's recommendation 9 , which stated that , as part of a public awareness campaign , there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children . during evidence at stage 1 , the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence . for example , children in wales , action for children and play wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support . welsh government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need . now , while the deputy minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information , a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future welsh governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign . i note the deputy minister accepted the recommendation , through our amendment , but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents . as will be expanded upon later , the deputy minister has relied upon the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising . however , this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups . amendment 1c : amendment 1c supports the committee 's recommendation 15 that explains that the welsh government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted . we urged , at stage 1 , that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment , regardless of the bill , other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded . in particular , some were worried that children , who may not realise the implications of reporting , could make allegations that are actually untrue . while we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations , this could also be reflected among adults , if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault . lynne neagle am: thank you . i 've got several speakers . i 've got suzy davies first , then dawn bowden . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . thank you minister , and thank you , janet , for that . i think it 's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by janet there are based on committee recommendations , and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large , but also you as well . so , that suggests that , at that stage , we were n't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report . now , i recognise that you 've moved some way on some of these amendments , and we 'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups . but the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation , now—that means that this is the instrument of the assembly , not of government , and if this assembly feels that the face of the bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign , then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign . the list that janet has given is a minimum . the reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be , so it will be disappointing to hear that you 're rejecting them all , and the reason they need to go on the face of the bill is that , if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation , at the moment we have no reassurance about how you 're going to do that—about what input the assembly , on behalf of our constituents , could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign . unless you accept some amendments in other groups , that is the position with this bill : the influence of the assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign . in terms of it being non-time limited , i think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting , never-ending campaign of awareness raising . but if you bear in mind that , seven years after the introduction of this bill , there 's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the bill , what is the point of doing that if you do n't then have an obligation , should the reports require it to be necessary , to continue promoting the changes in the law ? i accept that that ca n't go on for centuries , but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive , and which has a reach beyond our boundaries , i think is genuinely a mistake . finally , you mention that safeguarding is everyone 's business . i think that 's true , but i think janet finch-saunders was right to say that members of the public , ordinary individuals , not professionals , will need assurance that they 're doing the right thing . the amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that , although that can be read in that way , but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing . if this is going to be up to the individual , as you 've said , and the committee itself was n't reassured that individuals would know what to do , perhaps i can ask you to consider at stage 3 , if you 're going to reject this amendment , how you can reassure members of the public that , if they are going to intervene on the back of this law , they 're making things better , not worse . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . dawn . dawn bowden am: my comments , really , relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns , which i think all of us would want to see , and would appreciate in any changes in legislation . my point , really , is that we have a plethora of legislation that this assembly has passed in the last 20 years , and i 'm not aware of any legislation where , on the face of the bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis . it seems to me that , for some reason , you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation . from what the deputy minister is saying—and perhaps i will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign . that awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it . it could also , i assume , deputy minister , be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use . but the point i 'm trying to make is that i do n't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns , and particularly in relation to visitors to wales . again , we have other pieces of legislation in wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the uk . i am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do n't . and similarly , when we go to visit countries that have different legislation , we do n't necessarily know what legislation we 're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws . so , my key point , chair , is just the necessity of an ongoing , endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , dawn . hefin . hefin david am: my comments follow logically from dawn bowden 's comments , particularly in relation to amendments 1d and 1e . what you would be doing is that this senedd , if this was on the face of the bill , the duty on ministers , would be putting the duty on ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth senedd , into the next senedd term , and putting that duty on those newly elected ministers after that , which , in principle , would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: hefin , are you taking an intervention from suzy ? hefin david am: yes , happy to . suzy davies am: when you 've finished your point . hefin david am: i 'm happy to take it now , because i was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made , actually . suzy davies am: i 'd love that . you referred to this potentially binding ministers in future assemblies ; at the moment , we 've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this act into the assembly after next . i 'm wondering if you 're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on . hefin david am: well , when we get to that amendment , i 'll make comments if i feel it necessary . but at this point in time , we 're talking about amendments 1d and 1e , and particularly in relation to 1d and 1e it just is n't necessary , given the fact that—i wo n't call it a concession , because i think you made a reasonable point about the minister making a statement at stage 3 , and i think dawn bowden actually supported that as well . that , therefore , makes those amendments unnecessary . given that , in these circumstances , it is unnecessary to bind ministers in future parliaments . and that 's my key point , really , which is why i would n't vote for those two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you . siân . sian gwenllian am: thank you very much . i just want to speak against amendment 1a and also amendment 1b . i do n't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign , as is outlined in 1a . i agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change , and therefore i 'm very glad to see that the government has brought forward amendment 1 , and i do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change . in terms of amendment 1b , i do have sympathy with what is being said here , but i believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the government , through various programmes , and it should not be an addition on the face of this bill , which deals with a small change to the common law . and then , on 1d also , if i may—i do n't agree with this either . again , i believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children , but that should happen through the children 's rights convention , as part of a broader programme to promote children 's rights . lynne neagle am: thank you , siân . i call on the deputy minister to speak , then . julie morgan am: thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today . i just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the bill , and i absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the bill . i 'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee 's interest and the work that you 've done in this area of work . but i do think that these amendments are unnecessary . if we go through them , amendment 1a is really open-ended on promoting public awareness . we 're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from royal assent , and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign . all the points that you 've been making will be being considered by that group . i think the level of detail on the face of the bill is not needed . suzy davies am: okay . would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? a two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: six-year . suzy davies am: i thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force . julie morgan am: we 've got six years from royal assent . suzy davies am: oh , so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: yes . oh yes , it 's going to continue . suzy davies am: that 's very helpful . julie morgan am: definitely , yes . so , i do n't think that 's needed , amendment 1a . amendment 1b , about support available to parents and how to access it—again , this level of detail is not required on the face of the bill . i just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group , who are working on all aspects of this bill , many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee . the bill is a simple one , with a clear purpose . it aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment . i think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting , but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development , and they 're not required on the face of the bill . so , i 'm not putting them down , i 'm just saying that we do n't need them to be there on the face of the bill . and then amendment 1c—the information about how to raise concerns—i do repeat that safeguarding is everybody 's business , and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed . amendment 1d—ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now , children 's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making , and the entire bill is about protecting the rights of children . so , it is unnecessary duplication . so , we hope that the bill will remain focused . again , in terms of visitors , the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the bill . our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive . and then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised , revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of stage 3. so , there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment . the issue that was raised about the scottish bill , that it refers to 'understanding'—now , the scottish bill was not a government bill , it was a private member 's bill , and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding ' ; 'awareness ' is sufficient . so , basically , i think that the points made have been very useful , but i urge committee members to accept my amendments , but to reject those proposed by janet finch-saunders , as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 1 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1a ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection . i therefore take a vote by show of hands . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . all those in favour , please raise your hands . all those against . there voted two in favour , four against . so , amendment 1a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1b ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 1b be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1b . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 1b is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . all those in favour of amendment 1c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1c is not agreed . janet , do you want to move amendment 1d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1d be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , as there 's an objection , i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1d , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1d is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1e ? janet finch-saunders am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . the question is that amendment 1e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1e is not agreed . if amendment 1 is not agreed , amendment 2c and amendment 4 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . i move amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 1 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection , so we 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1. all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 1 is agreed . we 'll move on now then to group 2 , which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 , in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 2 in the deputy minister 's name , and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments , and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . the amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the bill , and i believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee , so you strongly influenced this amendment . it 's clear from members ' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment . i 've already provided assurance that i agree with the importance placed on such a review , both in the explanatory memorandum and during stage 1 scrutiny . i also made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . i have done this with amendment 2. amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after royal assent . as i said in my responses to the stage 1 committee report , and as set out in the explanatory memorandum , the post-implementation review of this bill will not be a single piece of work , but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. firstly , we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys , which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment . the surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign . secondly , through a dedicated task and finish group , we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the bill and to consider the possible impact on services . turning to amendment 2c , this amendment would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced . this amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what i think is a priority for the implementation of this bill : that is , given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders . i also think this amendment is not required because , as i 've already stated , we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising . in june , i shared the findings of a representative survey , which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation . i shared this with the committee . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . i open it up for discussion now , then . janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i speak to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment . again , i must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outline what we would expect to be within this report , and we would wish to see a commitment from the deputy minister to ensure the national assembly for wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report . amendment 2c requests that the welsh government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the assembly before section 1 commences . as i have outlined under my amendments in group 1 , the understanding of the public about the implications of the bill can not be sidelined . although the deputy minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign , we , as the national assembly for wales , must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins . as i noted under amendments 1b to 1e , there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the bill 's effect . i 'm sure that the deputy minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness . it is , therefore , important for the assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people . as will also be elaborated under amendment 2d , it is extremely important that we , as the parliament of wales , are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact . before we implement what will be a criminal offence , it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign 's effects before section 1 commences . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . deputy minister , first of all , can i just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2b ? i 'll come to that a little bit later , if i may . i just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you 'll be rejecting amendment 2c here . i actually do n't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all . it 's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that 's in the draft bill at the moment . so , failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well , rather than anything intrinsic in the bill , so i 'm not sure i can accept your argument on that . and , on 2d—very pleased to hear that you 'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying ' rather than 'publishing ' at stage 3 , but , in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature , perhaps i could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage , because it does n't make any difference . your amendment is going to pass , and this amendment to it would be—i think the gesture there would be very much appreciated . i 'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2a and 2b , but i want to begin , again , by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the bill on the issue of reporting , because i know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity ; you mentioned it earlier . but this is not a newid bychan , i 'm afraid , siân ; the terms and the effect of this bill are quite extensive , and it does need the reassurances , if you like , necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this bill on families where parents ' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute . it does need statutory underpinning . so , i am grateful to you for accepting this duty . i know that you 're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment , and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear . but , if this were me bringing forward this bill , i think i 'd want to show the world that i was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do . amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed . there are acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that . if you 're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change , and i think that is what you 're expecting—you know , showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment , reducing the number of , and indeed the likelihood of , parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—i really would have thought you 'd want people to know sooner , or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that . waiting five years , i think , will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years , and this is why i 'm grateful to you for your offer , because there may be a way where we can overcome that . if the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so , basically , in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that 's great , but there 's a possibility it 's going to reverse . again , i do n't think i 'd want to wait five years to find that out . for myself , i think one year would probably be enough , but i think three years is a reasonable compromise , as opposed to five years , for a reporting period . i think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a bill 's effectiveness . i ca n't see the reason for quite that length of time—i know you 've talked about new zealand—but neither can the constitutional and legislative affairs committee . i think that 's worth pointing out . when they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report , they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny . that 's something i think we perhaps need to bear in mind now , as we enter this period of the consolidation of law . five/seven years is really something of an outlier , and while that might have been appropriate , perhaps , in new zealand , i do n't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in wales , and , of course , there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years , and i note that you have n't drawn on them in order to support your argument . so , can i urge members and the minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? i do n't think it 's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point , hefin—that we not only wo n't hear in this assembly , we wo n't hear in the next assembly , about the formal evaluation of this , unless i follow— hefin david am: i wo n't intervene ; i 'll speak . suzy davies am: is that okay ? hefin david am: yes , i 'll make the point . lynne neagle am: okay , i 've got— suzy davies am: yes , i 'll take the intervention . lynne neagle am: no , he does n't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: i wo n't do an intervention ; i 'll speak . lynne neagle am: —he 'll make a contribution . suzy davies am: oh , apologies— hefin david am: just to say— suzy davies am: i 'll wait . hefin david am: well , let me put the intervention— . i 'll do it as an intervention , then . i just feel that—i take your point , and i was expecting it . the point i was making about 1d and 1e is they close down choices to ministers in future assemblies . an evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future parliaments more options with regard to this bill , so i think it 's entirely consistent . i do n't think the minister , in putting in amendment 2 , was trying to undermine my argument . actually , i think she 's being constructive by doing that , and i think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that 's quite helpful , and its consequence will be to open up choices to future parliaments , whereas my objection to 1d and 1e is they close those down . suzy davies am: okay , well , as i say , i think , actually , the deputy minister 's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this . because i 'm not 100 per cent sure i accept your argument , either , because it closes it down for the interim period if we do n't move on with the deputy minister 's suggestion—which i 'll talk about now , actually . because i am tempted to accept your offer . it absolutely makes sense and it 's clearly made with the best good faith here . but i need some clarity on what you would allow this assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report . because you 've been very clear that you do n't want to accept the things that janet finch-saunders has been talking about in a final report , and yet i can tell you we want to hear about these things . so , if you 're in a position where you can give a commitment at stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report , but that you will consult with , perhaps , this committee—i 'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report , what we would want to see tested , then i 'll be minded not to move amendment 2b . if you ca n't give me that reassurance , then i 'm going to move it anyway and we 'll return to it at stage 3 , if you do n't mind . just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable , and i do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to . again , at stage 3 , i 'm happy if you want to make three months six months , or something like that , but 'as soon as practicable ' is open ended , and what you think is practicable may be very different from what i or my constituents think is practicable . so , i do n't want to stick with what is practicable ; i would like you to put a date on this . if it 's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties , i think that 's fairly reasonable as well , but i 'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes , i welcome adding to the bill through amendment 2 , and what you 've said today also , that you 're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the bill , and to lay a report before the assembly . i am interested in what suzy is saying , and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods , and not say 'when it will be practicable ' . therefore , i would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the minister regarding these issues . suzy davies am: i would like to . thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . any other members ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: well , just to start off on that point , i think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss , i think i 'm very happy to accept that . so , i 'm happy to discuss that with you , and with the committee , before the third stage . so , i hope you will consider removing— . suzy davies am: no , genuinely i am . julie morgan am: right , thank you . well , just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised , on the issue of training now , i think janet raised a number of points about training , and we do have an operations , procedures , processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work , and they are considering guidance and training requirements . there are many professional bodies represented on that group , many of whom i think have given evidence here today , and they 've really got a chance to have their say . the officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at stage 3 , so there will be more information about training there . but we have this group looking at it , and it is very key . generally , i think that all the contributions are very helpful , and i know they 're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation . i ca n't support amendments 2a , 2c , and amendments 2e to 2k , because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the bill already , or they 're covered by the government amendments that i 've moved . but i do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough , multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services . now , tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points , so there 's no question there of having to wait ; we 'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes . suzy davies am: would you take an intervention there , deputy minister ? thank you very much . of course , i appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments , but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? so , even if this is not a statutory commitment , what exactly from our list , our wish list here , would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? julie morgan am: well , i would actually have thought all of them . all the areas you 've raised are very relevant , i think . obviously , this is not a statutory thing i 'm saying , but— suzy davies am: no , no , and this is not a— julie morgan am: yes , but considering those points you 've put forward , i think all of them have got a great deal of relevance . we will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you 've suggested and , in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group , which is about developing methods to collect data , we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you 've made on those issues . so , i do n't see any problem with that at all . suzy davies am: thank you . julie morgan am: so , as i say , i ca n't support the amendments . i 'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—i think one of yours and it was one of janet 's , was n't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage . because i am sympathetic to your views on these matters , and i think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well . so , i 'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at stage 3. in line with the recommendations of the finance committee , further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at stage 3. so , i think at this point i would ask that members reject the non-government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 , which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the bill , with the exception , obviously , of those two amendments , which i 'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 2 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2c is lost . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2a ? suzy davies am: i move amendment 2a , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2a , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: janet , do you wish to move amendment 2e ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2e is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2f ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2f be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2f ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2f is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2g ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2g be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , can i see all those in favour of amendment 2g ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2g is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2h ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2h be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2h ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2h is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2i ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2i be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . can i see all those in favour of amendment 2i ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2i is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2j ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2j be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . can i see all those in favour of 2j ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2j is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2k ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2k be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i 'll therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2k ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2k is not agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2b ? suzy davies am: in view of the deputy minister 's reassurances , i wo n't move this amendment today , but obviously i reserve the right to bring something back if we ca n't reach consensus . thank you . lynne neagle am: does any other member wish to move amendment 2b ? okay , no . thank you . we 'll move on , then . if amendment 2 is not agreed , amendment 5 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 2 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 2— suzy davies am: objection . lynne neagle am: you 're objecting ? suzy davies am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . right , we 'll therefore take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 2 is agreed . that takes us on to group 3 , which relates to the regulation-making powers in the bill . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 3 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . members will note that i 've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the bill , which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment . and that is going to be debated under group 5. so , we 're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here , basically . as a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a welsh minister to make an order for commencement , the power to make transitory , transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the bill coming into force would also be removed . so , i 'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the bill ; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it , and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after royal assent . in fact , removing the power for the welsh ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended . these amendments are technical in nature and while i acknowledge that the constitutional and legislative affairs committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied , their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied . the absence of an assembly procedure does not mean that ministers ' decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the assembly . any concerns about the welsh ministers ' proposals could be put to me in the senedd . this was a point made to clac and , as i say , their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power . for those reasons , i encourage members to reject amendment 3a from suzy . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . well perhaps , deputy minister , i can begin by saying that one person 's technical issue is another person 's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny . but i thank you for noting the assembly 's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this bill—this time by clac , as you say . moving this—and i 'm glad actually that amendment 8 , i think it was , has removed an order provision and we 're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here . i have to say that amendment 3a is something of a probing amendment , and i 'll explain why now . your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 , but it 's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it 's not a separate commencement power . and , actually , i 've been listening to the rest of this debate , and thinking that , if you 're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report , the chances are you 're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas , i think . and i 'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory , transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this bill . i 'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented , bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original , very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft . as i say , in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 i tabled this , in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 , when it comes into effect , onto the floor of the assembly . because while i completely accept that you 've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on , it 's still possible to do that without procedure , and so i have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure . amendment 3a is a holding position , which we will return to you in stage 3 , because i think , again , this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you 're looking for , because i think you probably need something that 's beyond transitional , transitory and saving . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , have you finished ? suzy davies am: yes , thank you very much . lynne neagle am: are there any other members who wish to speak on this group ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: i thank suzy for that input . we do n't actually think it 's necessary to have wider powers , but we will keep this under review and at stage 3 , i think that— . when i was looking at this , i was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage , but i can understand that there may be links to other bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers . so , basically , i do n't think it is necessary to have wider powers , but i can assure you that we 'll keep that in review coming up to stage 3 . suzy davies am: can i just ask a question on the back of that ? lynne neagle am: will you take a brief intervention at the end , minister ? suzy davies am: will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? julie morgan am: i was going to end there , yes . suzy davies am: right , okay , well , just before your full stop , would you just confirm that you 're happy for us to discuss this before stage 3 ? julie morgan am: yes , very happy . yes . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . before disposing of amendment 3 , we will deal with the amendment to that amendment . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 3a ? suzy davies am: i 'll move it , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 3a . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 3a is not agreed . if amendment 3 is not agreed , amendment 6 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 3 is therefore agreed . the committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. can i welcome members back ? we will move on to group 4 , which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of janet finch-saunders . i call on janet finch-saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i speak to both amendments in this group . as i outlined under amendments 2i and 2j , there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment . now , it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic . as i have mentioned previously , these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services . furthermore , the welsh local government association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are , those costs are met , because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . now , during evidence , the deputy minister , when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate . ' but you could n't commit to a broad figure , instead telling us that : 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us . ' and : 'we have to measure it as we go along . ' given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes , we only think it is fair for the welsh government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this bill . now , while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards , i note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by welsh government . anticipating the deputy minister 's response that few under this category , if any at all , would be affected by the bill , we are pursuing a principle here , and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the deputy minister . now , these are just two examples of welsh government legislation to date that have been underfunded . the active travel ( wales ) act 2013 : last year , the economy , infrastructure and skills committee found that the wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of england 's and one sixth of holland 's . furthermore , the committee highlighted that the passing of the act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes , but were constrained by the funding made available to them . the minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million . now , my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel act to become a meaningful piece of legislation , and the same goes with the well-being of future generations ( wales ) act 2015. this month , the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding . outside of the welsh government 's regional grant that can not be spent on projects , councils often contribute through officer time or facilities , but resources and capacity to support those psbs remain a key risk , as partners do n't have the capacity to take on more . the reason that i wanted these amendments placed in here is i genuinely do not believe that you 've even envisioned what , or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations , and certainly our local authorities and health boards , the impact this bill is going to have . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . are there other members who would like to speak in this group , please ? no . okay . i call the deputy minister , then . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i can understand that the member is concerned about the impact of this bill on public services , but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the bill that we 've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this bill before introduction . and as far as we 're aware , no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation , and also comprehensively prepared for implementation . we 've explored the published data , which is available from other countries , on the impact of measures they 've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children . we 've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in ireland , new zealand and malta , who have legal systems similar to our own . and in these countries , there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform . and stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs , and i think we should trust their judgment on this . in fact , as this committee notes in its stage 1 report , those delivering services on the front line have said , without exception , that 'this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in wales because it will make the law clear . ' sally jenkins of the association of directors of social services said to this committee : 'in terms of thresholds for children ’ s services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that ’ s likely to happen . ' that 's from the front line . jane randall , chair of the national independent safeguarding board wales , said : 'there 's no expectation that there 's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services , i think it would be dealt with within their existing resources . ' and dr rowena christmas , royal college of general practitioners , said : ' i ca n't see it 's going to lengthen consultations . i ca n't see that it 's going to increase the number of consultations , and i do n't think it 's going to increase the number of referrals i make to the health visitor or to social services , because if i was worried , i 'd make those referrals now regardless of the bill . ' i just want to say again that the bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault , which has formed part of the common law of england and wales for a very long time . and social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted , including from health and education , so it 's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them . i do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points . as i 've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments , we 're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services , and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation . welsh government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications . i can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued , and i 've asked officials to prepare a revised ria , as recommended at stage 2 , and i expect to share an updated ria with you in advance of stage 3. serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the bill , but i think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given , particularly to this committee , from the professionals at the front line . what the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within government , and it 's not clear why , in the context of the evidence heard at stage i , such provisions are necessary . i 'm sure that members will agree that future governments need to be able to consider , within the context of the budget-setting process , what the priorities are , and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time , for example taking into account any issues that there are—uk government actions , what happens in relation to brexit , or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or welsh society . all those issues would have to be taken into account . furthermore , as is the case now , the national assembly for wales scrutinises the welsh government budget annually , so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies , should it consider that this is required . i do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding , so i urge members to reject these amendments , which i believe are unnecessary . janet finch-saunders am: chair , could i ask a question ? lynne neagle am: you can reply to the debate now , janet , yes . janet finch-saunders am: i 'd like to ask a question of the deputy minister . when we were taking evidence , at an earlier stage , i noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across wales . now , we have 22 local authorities . at that time , the numbers mentioned were quite small—i think only a handful . what discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead , the cabinet members , or , indeed , the head of service ? i can speak from my own experiences , when going around my constituency , but when i 've spoken to some of the family support groups , and , indeed , the departments themselves , they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision . they 're already overstretched , and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden . so , how much have you engaged with them ? julie morgan am: there 's been extensive engagement . we 've had meetings with the association of directors of social services , and they 're represented on all our groups , and we 're working very closely with them , because , of course , they represent all the local authorities . but i have to say , when i 've been going round and meeting lots of different groups , the first thing they say is , ' i 'm so glad that you 're doing this ' , and they have n't mentioned any financial implications . but , obviously , we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up . janet finch-saunders am: okay . so , i 'll still move my amendments . i 'm disappointed , really . i was hoping to see some commitment to—this bill was going to go through , and it 's one that could be implemented fully , because sufficient resources were there . i 'm not convinced about that , and i know that other organisations are not also . so , i move my amendments . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 11 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 11 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 12 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] all those in favour of amendment 12. all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 12 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . i move amendment 4 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 4 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 4 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 4 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 5 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 5 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 5 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 5 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 6 , then , in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 6 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 6 is therefore agreed . this takes us , then , to the fifth and final group , which relates to commencement . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of suzy davies . and i call suzy davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing , but it 's the lead amendment in the group , so i 'll move it to begin the debate . minister , i 'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically . you 've said repeatedly , and i believe you , that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children . you could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement , but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law , where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted , but liability to prosecution , not just liability to civil sanctions . i 'm sure you 'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted , but that decision does not and can not lie with you . you , like us , have no agency in this , because the powers and the duties of the police and the crown prosecution service sit outside our competence . you can not and we can not , by law or otherwise , instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents . you 've acknowledged to this committee and the constitutional and legislative affairs committee that revised cps charging guidance and any other guidance on , for example , out-of-court disposals , are key to delivering your policy objectives . you 'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group , is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like . so , you 're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force , the frequency of the offence , any prior conviction , any prior reporting , not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced , or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals ; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest , let alone charging . and you argue that the rights of the child are what matter , and i agree with you here , but everybody , adult or child , has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure , and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage . now , clac recommended that any revised guidance be made available to ams before stage 3. i anticipate that that 's unlikely , and i hope i 'm wrong , but that 's why janet and i have tabled amendments 10 and 15 , which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that cps guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed . that reflects our recommendation 4 , this committee 's recommendation , as well as clac 's recommendation 1. it gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment , even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded . and you have not addressed these in your own amendments . i have to say , minister , i think these points are so serious that i would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking royal assent for this bill until the assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and cps . i 'd have sought a report stage , if i could , so that we could consider that evidence . but i 'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled , 10 and 15 , so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately can not control once this bill has passed . now , i know you 've got the numbers to pass this bill , whether you accept amendments or not , but i just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a bill that changes a person 's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that , and you 're inviting this assembly to fall into the same trap . i therefore urge the assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . are there other members who wish to speak ? no . janet , do you want to speak ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , i wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. amendment 14 , however , is consequential to amendment 16 passing . amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the welsh government . as was clear during the committee 's evidence sessions , present welsh government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage . for example , the capacity and reach of the healthy child wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising , with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved , with 53.2 per cent of children in wales reported as being contacted . furthermore , existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas , such as flying start , and even the children 's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children . now , the deputy minister mentioned the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents . however , the deputy minister was challenged on this fact , that this is an online campaign only , and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake . consequently , it should be remembered that this bill will affect all parents . therefore , the deputy minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . deputy minister . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i 've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during stage 1. as a result , i have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law . my amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the bill by order of the welsh ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after royal assent . that was done to give certainty on the length of time . up to then , we 'd always said 'up to two years'—well , we 're giving two years . this certainty will allow key partners , including the police , social services and the crown prosecution service , to plan for changes to guidance , training and data-collection systems more effectively . it 'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign . my amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision , which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6 , and we discussed those in the previous group . i 've listened to the arguments put forward by suzy davies and janet finch-saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled . these amendments are all about making the commencement of the bill conditional on something else happening , whether it 's waiting for the revision of crown prosecution service guidance , or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system , or for the provision of parenting support services . and , really , i do n't think that we should be going down that road . as i set out in my letter of response to the stage 1 report from the constitutional and legislative affairs committee , we 've got good working relations with the cps through the strategic implementation group , and we work very closely with them . but the cps are an independent body , as suzy davies has said in her contribution , not answerable to welsh ministers or this legislature , and it 's not appropriate for a minister or the national assembly to seek to influence the cps guidelines . we 're discussing the issues with the cps in the implementation group . and , in fact , i think that these amendments—suzy 's amendments in particular—would n't just seek to influence the cps , but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in wales . so , i do n't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided . i think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship , very close working relationship . and i know they did give evidence to your committee , i believe , the cps . and i think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence , or not , assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty , i think , if we did go down that track , because i think this is very important welsh legislation , which does have broad support across the assembly . and i do n't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation . so , i do n't support those amendments . i think the cps is entirely independent of government , and must be entirely independent of government , and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance . in addition , you suggest we allow the uk government to have a say in when welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the assembly . the test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain . if these amendments passed , it would be very difficult , if not impossible , to judge when section 1 could be commenced . this contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for , and raises huge uncertainty , which potentially jeopardises the bill . and i want to assure you again , not only do we have good working relations with the cps , but also very good working relationships with the police , who are , of course , the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues . the work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the bill 's commencement . in fact , it 's the other way round . my amendment to provide a two-year period between royal assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force . and then , when it comes to parenting support , the committee knows that i 've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support , and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue . i have already said i will expand the age range of the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign , and i think— . i know janet finch-saunders has made the point that it is an online facility . it is very widely used . it is a very successful tool . but , of course , the universal services are also there . for example , the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial , and that is a service that is for every child . and , of course , the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly . and the expert group is considering what it 'll recommend for the future , and it needs the time to be able to do that , to support the bill as well as to support parenting more widely . so , as i said , i think these are important points that you have raised , but i do n't think they are appropriate . so , i therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10 , nor 13 , 14 and 15 . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy to reply to the debate . suzy davies am: thank you very much , and thank you very much , deputy minister , as well . i 'm disappointed that you have n't seen what 's behind janet finch-saunders 's final amendment there , actually . maybe it 's something we 'll raise again with you at stage 3 , or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then . but i want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that i 've raised and your assertion that we 're giving , or attempting to give , power to the cps here . we are not . this amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area . and this is why i go back to where my contribution to this started , and it 's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or , sorry , to try and protect children 's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence . this bill—and , actually , you 've said a couple of times in your response today that it 's important that it 's commenced on a certain date . my argument is : it should n't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence . and , while i claim no mischief on the part of the cps or the police—obviously i don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the cps , should they wish to do it , or indeed the police with their own guidelines , putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence . and , because of that , i ask you to consider , or balance , actually , two important things here : one is the rights of the child , obviously at the forefront of your argument on this , which i would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion ; and , actually , the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you can not allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing . the relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family , but that 's something you ought to protect in what you 're trying to do here , and by leaving it open , as you say , to completely different—sorry , undevolved , two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me . i know this is n't going to stop your bill going forward , but i really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at stage 3 , because leaving , effectively , the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control , despite your great relationship with them , should worry us all as a legislature . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , suzy . do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9 ? suzy davies am: oh , because of the voting order— . yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 9 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 9 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 9 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 13 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 13 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 13 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 13 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 14 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 14 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 14 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 14 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 7 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 7 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 7 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against . amendment 7 is agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 10 ? suzy davies am: yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 10 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 10 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 10 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 15 ? janet finch-saunders am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 15 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 15 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 15 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 16 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 16 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 16 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 16 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 8 , then , in the name of the minister . the question is that amendment 8 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 8 is therefore agreed . well , that has brought us to the end of our amendments , so can i thank the deputy minister and her officials for their attendance ? as usual , you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy . this completes stage 2 proceedings . stage 3 begins tomorrow , and the relevant date of stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course . standing orders make provision for the deputy minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum , taking account of the amendments agreed today . the revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before stage 3 proceedings . thank you very much . julie morgan am: thank you all very much . lynne neagle am: okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the deputy minister for health and social services , following our meeting on 2 october . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services updating the committee on the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' strategy . and paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the deputy minister for health and social services regarding early childhood education and care , following the session that we held on 2 october . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

the deputy minister firstly expressed her opinions . she thought amendment 2c would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 was commenced , and she thought this was unnecessary and was in conflict with what she thought was a priority for the implementation of this bill . she also thought this amendment was not required because they were preparing to assess the effectiveness of the awareness raising . then janet finch-saunder expressed her opinion , and spoke to amendments 2c excluding 2d to 2k . after this , suzy davies proposed several opinions against the deputy minister . in specific , suzy davies did not think the amendment should affect the commencement date at all , to respond to the comments the deputy minister made for amendment 2c . at last , they took a vote and ended up with losing 2c - 2k , and accepting amendment 2 .

how did the deputy minister speak to her amendments in group 2 that relate to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask if there are any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill : stage 2 proceedings . i 'm pleased to welcome julie morgan am , deputy minister for health and social services ; karen cornish , deputy director , children and families division at welsh government ; and emma gammon , lawyer for welsh government . thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee . i 'm just going to run through the procedures that we 're going to follow now . as i said , the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . for these proceedings , members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments , the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments . the marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled , marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the bill . the order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is , sections 1 to 3 and the long title . you will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate . however , the order in which they 're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list . members will , therefore , need to follow the two papers , although i will advise members when i call them whether they 're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision . there will be one debate on each group of amendments . members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way . i will call the deputy minister to speak on each group . for the record , in accordance with the convention agreed by the business committee , as chair i will move amendments in the name of the deputy minister . for expediency , i will assume that the deputy minister wishes me to move all of her amendments , and i will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list . deputy minister , if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved , please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings . in line with our usual practice , legal advisers to the committee and the deputy minister are not expected to provide advice on the record . if members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings , please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and , if necessary , we can adjourn . my intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today 's meeting . i will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time , if necessary . okay , thank you . so , we will proceed , then , to group 1 , which is the duty to promote public awareness . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 1 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . my amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the act commences . i tabled these amendments in response to this committee 's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the stage 1 report , so i have responded to that . i 've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from royal assent , should the bill be passed . i 've considered amendments 1a to 1e , which have been tabled by janet finch-saunders , and which relate to the duty to raise awareness . amendment 1a introduces a reference to public understanding . we do n't think , actually , that this adds anything to the government amendment , which already mentions awareness . it makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit , which is not necessary . by commencement , messaging around the change in the law will be embedded . the awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years . therefore , an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required . i understand , of course , that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive , well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change , and understand how to respond to it . but i do n't think it 's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups , such as visitors to wales , on the face of the bill—that 's the approach taken in amendment 1e—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others . in relation to children , the committee will know that i 'm fully committed to children ’ s rights , and that welsh ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions . an additional due regard requirement , such as the one set out in amendment 1d , relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed . this would be part and parcel of the welsh government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making . similarly , i do n't think it 's necessary for the bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign , as is suggested in amendments 1b and 1c . that level of detail , i do n't think , is for the face of the bill . information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group , under the auspices of the bill ’ s strategic implementation group , working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign . and , really , their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the bill . i think we always need to bear in mind that what the bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence ; it does not create a new offence . and in this context , it does n't make sense for this bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished . as i set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point , safeguarding is everyone ’ s business , and , as now , the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child . i 'm asking for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and i ask members to reject amendments 1a to 1e because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . are there other members who wish to speak ? janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i wish to speak to amendments 1a to 1e , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness . while we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law , the deputy minister 's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. an important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that i 've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign , which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the bill , but serves as a duty for future administrations . amendment 1a : primarily , amendment 1a changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . i do n't think it 's enough for the welsh government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the welsh government 's objectives have been achieved . despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour , the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors . instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence , this law will remove a defence for parents , information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives , potentially separate parents , and could affect employment chances . as such , whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign , it is important too that the welsh government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign . the witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: janet , dawn is asking if you 'll take an intervention . janet finch-saunders am: yes . dawn bowden am: i just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there 's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it 's been passed ? janet finch-saunders am: there 's a lot of legislation . the first assembly term when i was here— dawn bowden am: yes , what i 'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: i 'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: what i 'm asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? janet finch-saunders am: the very first term that i was an assembly member , we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation . even today , as i sit here , the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation . this particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in wales . so , therefore , i think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved , and i shall speak now— dawn bowden am: with respect , chair , that 's not the question i asked . janet finch-saunders am: —to my amendments . lynne neagle am: i can call you in the debate , if you 'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this . yes . janet finch-saunders am: the witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications . and that 's what we 're talking about here , members—the implications of removing this defence . strikingly , the office of police and crime commissioner for gwent stated the following : 'the potential for public resistance to the bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation . ' if you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment , it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this bill . additionally , the committee found that while the current welsh government 's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt , future governments may have less of a commitment . this places further weight on the fact that the welsh government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the bill beyond its commencement . furthermore , the children ( equal protection from assault ) ( scotland ) bill quite clearly notes that , under section 2 , the scottish ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister can respond as to the reasons why the welsh government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment . [ interruption . ] should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: are you taking an intervention ? janet finch-saunders am: no . i 'd rather crack on , to be honest . lynne neagle am: okay . i can call you in the debate , hefin . janet finch-saunders am: should our amendment to be agreed , we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. amendment 1b : amendment 1b is in line with the committee 's recommendation 9 , which stated that , as part of a public awareness campaign , there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children . during evidence at stage 1 , the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence . for example , children in wales , action for children and play wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support . welsh government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need . now , while the deputy minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information , a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future welsh governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign . i note the deputy minister accepted the recommendation , through our amendment , but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents . as will be expanded upon later , the deputy minister has relied upon the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising . however , this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups . amendment 1c : amendment 1c supports the committee 's recommendation 15 that explains that the welsh government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted . we urged , at stage 1 , that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment , regardless of the bill , other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded . in particular , some were worried that children , who may not realise the implications of reporting , could make allegations that are actually untrue . while we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations , this could also be reflected among adults , if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault . lynne neagle am: thank you . i 've got several speakers . i 've got suzy davies first , then dawn bowden . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . thank you minister , and thank you , janet , for that . i think it 's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by janet there are based on committee recommendations , and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large , but also you as well . so , that suggests that , at that stage , we were n't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report . now , i recognise that you 've moved some way on some of these amendments , and we 'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups . but the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation , now—that means that this is the instrument of the assembly , not of government , and if this assembly feels that the face of the bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign , then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign . the list that janet has given is a minimum . the reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be , so it will be disappointing to hear that you 're rejecting them all , and the reason they need to go on the face of the bill is that , if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation , at the moment we have no reassurance about how you 're going to do that—about what input the assembly , on behalf of our constituents , could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign . unless you accept some amendments in other groups , that is the position with this bill : the influence of the assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign . in terms of it being non-time limited , i think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting , never-ending campaign of awareness raising . but if you bear in mind that , seven years after the introduction of this bill , there 's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the bill , what is the point of doing that if you do n't then have an obligation , should the reports require it to be necessary , to continue promoting the changes in the law ? i accept that that ca n't go on for centuries , but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive , and which has a reach beyond our boundaries , i think is genuinely a mistake . finally , you mention that safeguarding is everyone 's business . i think that 's true , but i think janet finch-saunders was right to say that members of the public , ordinary individuals , not professionals , will need assurance that they 're doing the right thing . the amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that , although that can be read in that way , but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing . if this is going to be up to the individual , as you 've said , and the committee itself was n't reassured that individuals would know what to do , perhaps i can ask you to consider at stage 3 , if you 're going to reject this amendment , how you can reassure members of the public that , if they are going to intervene on the back of this law , they 're making things better , not worse . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . dawn . dawn bowden am: my comments , really , relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns , which i think all of us would want to see , and would appreciate in any changes in legislation . my point , really , is that we have a plethora of legislation that this assembly has passed in the last 20 years , and i 'm not aware of any legislation where , on the face of the bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis . it seems to me that , for some reason , you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation . from what the deputy minister is saying—and perhaps i will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign . that awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it . it could also , i assume , deputy minister , be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use . but the point i 'm trying to make is that i do n't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns , and particularly in relation to visitors to wales . again , we have other pieces of legislation in wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the uk . i am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do n't . and similarly , when we go to visit countries that have different legislation , we do n't necessarily know what legislation we 're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws . so , my key point , chair , is just the necessity of an ongoing , endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , dawn . hefin . hefin david am: my comments follow logically from dawn bowden 's comments , particularly in relation to amendments 1d and 1e . what you would be doing is that this senedd , if this was on the face of the bill , the duty on ministers , would be putting the duty on ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth senedd , into the next senedd term , and putting that duty on those newly elected ministers after that , which , in principle , would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: hefin , are you taking an intervention from suzy ? hefin david am: yes , happy to . suzy davies am: when you 've finished your point . hefin david am: i 'm happy to take it now , because i was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made , actually . suzy davies am: i 'd love that . you referred to this potentially binding ministers in future assemblies ; at the moment , we 've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this act into the assembly after next . i 'm wondering if you 're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on . hefin david am: well , when we get to that amendment , i 'll make comments if i feel it necessary . but at this point in time , we 're talking about amendments 1d and 1e , and particularly in relation to 1d and 1e it just is n't necessary , given the fact that—i wo n't call it a concession , because i think you made a reasonable point about the minister making a statement at stage 3 , and i think dawn bowden actually supported that as well . that , therefore , makes those amendments unnecessary . given that , in these circumstances , it is unnecessary to bind ministers in future parliaments . and that 's my key point , really , which is why i would n't vote for those two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you . siân . sian gwenllian am: thank you very much . i just want to speak against amendment 1a and also amendment 1b . i do n't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign , as is outlined in 1a . i agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change , and therefore i 'm very glad to see that the government has brought forward amendment 1 , and i do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change . in terms of amendment 1b , i do have sympathy with what is being said here , but i believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the government , through various programmes , and it should not be an addition on the face of this bill , which deals with a small change to the common law . and then , on 1d also , if i may—i do n't agree with this either . again , i believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children , but that should happen through the children 's rights convention , as part of a broader programme to promote children 's rights . lynne neagle am: thank you , siân . i call on the deputy minister to speak , then . julie morgan am: thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today . i just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the bill , and i absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the bill . i 'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee 's interest and the work that you 've done in this area of work . but i do think that these amendments are unnecessary . if we go through them , amendment 1a is really open-ended on promoting public awareness . we 're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from royal assent , and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign . all the points that you 've been making will be being considered by that group . i think the level of detail on the face of the bill is not needed . suzy davies am: okay . would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? a two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: six-year . suzy davies am: i thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force . julie morgan am: we 've got six years from royal assent . suzy davies am: oh , so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: yes . oh yes , it 's going to continue . suzy davies am: that 's very helpful . julie morgan am: definitely , yes . so , i do n't think that 's needed , amendment 1a . amendment 1b , about support available to parents and how to access it—again , this level of detail is not required on the face of the bill . i just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group , who are working on all aspects of this bill , many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee . the bill is a simple one , with a clear purpose . it aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment . i think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting , but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development , and they 're not required on the face of the bill . so , i 'm not putting them down , i 'm just saying that we do n't need them to be there on the face of the bill . and then amendment 1c—the information about how to raise concerns—i do repeat that safeguarding is everybody 's business , and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed . amendment 1d—ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now , children 's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making , and the entire bill is about protecting the rights of children . so , it is unnecessary duplication . so , we hope that the bill will remain focused . again , in terms of visitors , the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the bill . our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive . and then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised , revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of stage 3. so , there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment . the issue that was raised about the scottish bill , that it refers to 'understanding'—now , the scottish bill was not a government bill , it was a private member 's bill , and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding ' ; 'awareness ' is sufficient . so , basically , i think that the points made have been very useful , but i urge committee members to accept my amendments , but to reject those proposed by janet finch-saunders , as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 1 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1a ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection . i therefore take a vote by show of hands . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . all those in favour , please raise your hands . all those against . there voted two in favour , four against . so , amendment 1a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1b ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 1b be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1b . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 1b is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . all those in favour of amendment 1c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1c is not agreed . janet , do you want to move amendment 1d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1d be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , as there 's an objection , i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1d , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1d is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1e ? janet finch-saunders am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . the question is that amendment 1e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1e is not agreed . if amendment 1 is not agreed , amendment 2c and amendment 4 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . i move amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 1 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection , so we 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1. all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 1 is agreed . we 'll move on now then to group 2 , which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 , in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 2 in the deputy minister 's name , and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments , and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . the amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the bill , and i believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee , so you strongly influenced this amendment . it 's clear from members ' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment . i 've already provided assurance that i agree with the importance placed on such a review , both in the explanatory memorandum and during stage 1 scrutiny . i also made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . i have done this with amendment 2. amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after royal assent . as i said in my responses to the stage 1 committee report , and as set out in the explanatory memorandum , the post-implementation review of this bill will not be a single piece of work , but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. firstly , we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys , which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment . the surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign . secondly , through a dedicated task and finish group , we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the bill and to consider the possible impact on services . turning to amendment 2c , this amendment would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced . this amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what i think is a priority for the implementation of this bill : that is , given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders . i also think this amendment is not required because , as i 've already stated , we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising . in june , i shared the findings of a representative survey , which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation . i shared this with the committee . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . i open it up for discussion now , then . janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i speak to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment . again , i must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outline what we would expect to be within this report , and we would wish to see a commitment from the deputy minister to ensure the national assembly for wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report . amendment 2c requests that the welsh government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the assembly before section 1 commences . as i have outlined under my amendments in group 1 , the understanding of the public about the implications of the bill can not be sidelined . although the deputy minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign , we , as the national assembly for wales , must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins . as i noted under amendments 1b to 1e , there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the bill 's effect . i 'm sure that the deputy minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness . it is , therefore , important for the assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people . as will also be elaborated under amendment 2d , it is extremely important that we , as the parliament of wales , are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact . before we implement what will be a criminal offence , it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign 's effects before section 1 commences . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . deputy minister , first of all , can i just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2b ? i 'll come to that a little bit later , if i may . i just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you 'll be rejecting amendment 2c here . i actually do n't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all . it 's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that 's in the draft bill at the moment . so , failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well , rather than anything intrinsic in the bill , so i 'm not sure i can accept your argument on that . and , on 2d—very pleased to hear that you 'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying ' rather than 'publishing ' at stage 3 , but , in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature , perhaps i could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage , because it does n't make any difference . your amendment is going to pass , and this amendment to it would be—i think the gesture there would be very much appreciated . i 'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2a and 2b , but i want to begin , again , by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the bill on the issue of reporting , because i know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity ; you mentioned it earlier . but this is not a newid bychan , i 'm afraid , siân ; the terms and the effect of this bill are quite extensive , and it does need the reassurances , if you like , necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this bill on families where parents ' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute . it does need statutory underpinning . so , i am grateful to you for accepting this duty . i know that you 're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment , and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear . but , if this were me bringing forward this bill , i think i 'd want to show the world that i was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do . amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed . there are acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that . if you 're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change , and i think that is what you 're expecting—you know , showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment , reducing the number of , and indeed the likelihood of , parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—i really would have thought you 'd want people to know sooner , or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that . waiting five years , i think , will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years , and this is why i 'm grateful to you for your offer , because there may be a way where we can overcome that . if the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so , basically , in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that 's great , but there 's a possibility it 's going to reverse . again , i do n't think i 'd want to wait five years to find that out . for myself , i think one year would probably be enough , but i think three years is a reasonable compromise , as opposed to five years , for a reporting period . i think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a bill 's effectiveness . i ca n't see the reason for quite that length of time—i know you 've talked about new zealand—but neither can the constitutional and legislative affairs committee . i think that 's worth pointing out . when they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report , they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny . that 's something i think we perhaps need to bear in mind now , as we enter this period of the consolidation of law . five/seven years is really something of an outlier , and while that might have been appropriate , perhaps , in new zealand , i do n't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in wales , and , of course , there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years , and i note that you have n't drawn on them in order to support your argument . so , can i urge members and the minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? i do n't think it 's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point , hefin—that we not only wo n't hear in this assembly , we wo n't hear in the next assembly , about the formal evaluation of this , unless i follow— hefin david am: i wo n't intervene ; i 'll speak . suzy davies am: is that okay ? hefin david am: yes , i 'll make the point . lynne neagle am: okay , i 've got— suzy davies am: yes , i 'll take the intervention . lynne neagle am: no , he does n't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: i wo n't do an intervention ; i 'll speak . lynne neagle am: —he 'll make a contribution . suzy davies am: oh , apologies— hefin david am: just to say— suzy davies am: i 'll wait . hefin david am: well , let me put the intervention— . i 'll do it as an intervention , then . i just feel that—i take your point , and i was expecting it . the point i was making about 1d and 1e is they close down choices to ministers in future assemblies . an evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future parliaments more options with regard to this bill , so i think it 's entirely consistent . i do n't think the minister , in putting in amendment 2 , was trying to undermine my argument . actually , i think she 's being constructive by doing that , and i think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that 's quite helpful , and its consequence will be to open up choices to future parliaments , whereas my objection to 1d and 1e is they close those down . suzy davies am: okay , well , as i say , i think , actually , the deputy minister 's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this . because i 'm not 100 per cent sure i accept your argument , either , because it closes it down for the interim period if we do n't move on with the deputy minister 's suggestion—which i 'll talk about now , actually . because i am tempted to accept your offer . it absolutely makes sense and it 's clearly made with the best good faith here . but i need some clarity on what you would allow this assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report . because you 've been very clear that you do n't want to accept the things that janet finch-saunders has been talking about in a final report , and yet i can tell you we want to hear about these things . so , if you 're in a position where you can give a commitment at stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report , but that you will consult with , perhaps , this committee—i 'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report , what we would want to see tested , then i 'll be minded not to move amendment 2b . if you ca n't give me that reassurance , then i 'm going to move it anyway and we 'll return to it at stage 3 , if you do n't mind . just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable , and i do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to . again , at stage 3 , i 'm happy if you want to make three months six months , or something like that , but 'as soon as practicable ' is open ended , and what you think is practicable may be very different from what i or my constituents think is practicable . so , i do n't want to stick with what is practicable ; i would like you to put a date on this . if it 's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties , i think that 's fairly reasonable as well , but i 'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes , i welcome adding to the bill through amendment 2 , and what you 've said today also , that you 're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the bill , and to lay a report before the assembly . i am interested in what suzy is saying , and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods , and not say 'when it will be practicable ' . therefore , i would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the minister regarding these issues . suzy davies am: i would like to . thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . any other members ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: well , just to start off on that point , i think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss , i think i 'm very happy to accept that . so , i 'm happy to discuss that with you , and with the committee , before the third stage . so , i hope you will consider removing— . suzy davies am: no , genuinely i am . julie morgan am: right , thank you . well , just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised , on the issue of training now , i think janet raised a number of points about training , and we do have an operations , procedures , processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work , and they are considering guidance and training requirements . there are many professional bodies represented on that group , many of whom i think have given evidence here today , and they 've really got a chance to have their say . the officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at stage 3 , so there will be more information about training there . but we have this group looking at it , and it is very key . generally , i think that all the contributions are very helpful , and i know they 're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation . i ca n't support amendments 2a , 2c , and amendments 2e to 2k , because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the bill already , or they 're covered by the government amendments that i 've moved . but i do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough , multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services . now , tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points , so there 's no question there of having to wait ; we 'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes . suzy davies am: would you take an intervention there , deputy minister ? thank you very much . of course , i appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments , but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? so , even if this is not a statutory commitment , what exactly from our list , our wish list here , would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? julie morgan am: well , i would actually have thought all of them . all the areas you 've raised are very relevant , i think . obviously , this is not a statutory thing i 'm saying , but— suzy davies am: no , no , and this is not a— julie morgan am: yes , but considering those points you 've put forward , i think all of them have got a great deal of relevance . we will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you 've suggested and , in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group , which is about developing methods to collect data , we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you 've made on those issues . so , i do n't see any problem with that at all . suzy davies am: thank you . julie morgan am: so , as i say , i ca n't support the amendments . i 'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—i think one of yours and it was one of janet 's , was n't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage . because i am sympathetic to your views on these matters , and i think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well . so , i 'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at stage 3. in line with the recommendations of the finance committee , further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at stage 3. so , i think at this point i would ask that members reject the non-government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 , which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the bill , with the exception , obviously , of those two amendments , which i 'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 2 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2c is lost . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2a ? suzy davies am: i move amendment 2a , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2a , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: janet , do you wish to move amendment 2e ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2e is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2f ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2f be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2f ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2f is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2g ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2g be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , can i see all those in favour of amendment 2g ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2g is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2h ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2h be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2h ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2h is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2i ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2i be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . can i see all those in favour of amendment 2i ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2i is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2j ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2j be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . can i see all those in favour of 2j ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2j is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2k ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2k be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i 'll therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2k ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2k is not agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2b ? suzy davies am: in view of the deputy minister 's reassurances , i wo n't move this amendment today , but obviously i reserve the right to bring something back if we ca n't reach consensus . thank you . lynne neagle am: does any other member wish to move amendment 2b ? okay , no . thank you . we 'll move on , then . if amendment 2 is not agreed , amendment 5 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 2 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 2— suzy davies am: objection . lynne neagle am: you 're objecting ? suzy davies am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . right , we 'll therefore take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 2 is agreed . that takes us on to group 3 , which relates to the regulation-making powers in the bill . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 3 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . members will note that i 've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the bill , which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment . and that is going to be debated under group 5. so , we 're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here , basically . as a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a welsh minister to make an order for commencement , the power to make transitory , transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the bill coming into force would also be removed . so , i 'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the bill ; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it , and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after royal assent . in fact , removing the power for the welsh ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended . these amendments are technical in nature and while i acknowledge that the constitutional and legislative affairs committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied , their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied . the absence of an assembly procedure does not mean that ministers ' decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the assembly . any concerns about the welsh ministers ' proposals could be put to me in the senedd . this was a point made to clac and , as i say , their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power . for those reasons , i encourage members to reject amendment 3a from suzy . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . well perhaps , deputy minister , i can begin by saying that one person 's technical issue is another person 's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny . but i thank you for noting the assembly 's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this bill—this time by clac , as you say . moving this—and i 'm glad actually that amendment 8 , i think it was , has removed an order provision and we 're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here . i have to say that amendment 3a is something of a probing amendment , and i 'll explain why now . your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 , but it 's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it 's not a separate commencement power . and , actually , i 've been listening to the rest of this debate , and thinking that , if you 're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report , the chances are you 're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas , i think . and i 'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory , transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this bill . i 'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented , bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original , very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft . as i say , in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 i tabled this , in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 , when it comes into effect , onto the floor of the assembly . because while i completely accept that you 've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on , it 's still possible to do that without procedure , and so i have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure . amendment 3a is a holding position , which we will return to you in stage 3 , because i think , again , this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you 're looking for , because i think you probably need something that 's beyond transitional , transitory and saving . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , have you finished ? suzy davies am: yes , thank you very much . lynne neagle am: are there any other members who wish to speak on this group ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: i thank suzy for that input . we do n't actually think it 's necessary to have wider powers , but we will keep this under review and at stage 3 , i think that— . when i was looking at this , i was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage , but i can understand that there may be links to other bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers . so , basically , i do n't think it is necessary to have wider powers , but i can assure you that we 'll keep that in review coming up to stage 3 . suzy davies am: can i just ask a question on the back of that ? lynne neagle am: will you take a brief intervention at the end , minister ? suzy davies am: will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? julie morgan am: i was going to end there , yes . suzy davies am: right , okay , well , just before your full stop , would you just confirm that you 're happy for us to discuss this before stage 3 ? julie morgan am: yes , very happy . yes . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . before disposing of amendment 3 , we will deal with the amendment to that amendment . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 3a ? suzy davies am: i 'll move it , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 3a . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 3a is not agreed . if amendment 3 is not agreed , amendment 6 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 3 is therefore agreed . the committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. can i welcome members back ? we will move on to group 4 , which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of janet finch-saunders . i call on janet finch-saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i speak to both amendments in this group . as i outlined under amendments 2i and 2j , there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment . now , it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic . as i have mentioned previously , these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services . furthermore , the welsh local government association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are , those costs are met , because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . now , during evidence , the deputy minister , when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate . ' but you could n't commit to a broad figure , instead telling us that : 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us . ' and : 'we have to measure it as we go along . ' given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes , we only think it is fair for the welsh government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this bill . now , while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards , i note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by welsh government . anticipating the deputy minister 's response that few under this category , if any at all , would be affected by the bill , we are pursuing a principle here , and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the deputy minister . now , these are just two examples of welsh government legislation to date that have been underfunded . the active travel ( wales ) act 2013 : last year , the economy , infrastructure and skills committee found that the wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of england 's and one sixth of holland 's . furthermore , the committee highlighted that the passing of the act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes , but were constrained by the funding made available to them . the minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million . now , my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel act to become a meaningful piece of legislation , and the same goes with the well-being of future generations ( wales ) act 2015. this month , the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding . outside of the welsh government 's regional grant that can not be spent on projects , councils often contribute through officer time or facilities , but resources and capacity to support those psbs remain a key risk , as partners do n't have the capacity to take on more . the reason that i wanted these amendments placed in here is i genuinely do not believe that you 've even envisioned what , or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations , and certainly our local authorities and health boards , the impact this bill is going to have . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . are there other members who would like to speak in this group , please ? no . okay . i call the deputy minister , then . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i can understand that the member is concerned about the impact of this bill on public services , but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the bill that we 've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this bill before introduction . and as far as we 're aware , no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation , and also comprehensively prepared for implementation . we 've explored the published data , which is available from other countries , on the impact of measures they 've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children . we 've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in ireland , new zealand and malta , who have legal systems similar to our own . and in these countries , there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform . and stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs , and i think we should trust their judgment on this . in fact , as this committee notes in its stage 1 report , those delivering services on the front line have said , without exception , that 'this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in wales because it will make the law clear . ' sally jenkins of the association of directors of social services said to this committee : 'in terms of thresholds for children ’ s services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that ’ s likely to happen . ' that 's from the front line . jane randall , chair of the national independent safeguarding board wales , said : 'there 's no expectation that there 's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services , i think it would be dealt with within their existing resources . ' and dr rowena christmas , royal college of general practitioners , said : ' i ca n't see it 's going to lengthen consultations . i ca n't see that it 's going to increase the number of consultations , and i do n't think it 's going to increase the number of referrals i make to the health visitor or to social services , because if i was worried , i 'd make those referrals now regardless of the bill . ' i just want to say again that the bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault , which has formed part of the common law of england and wales for a very long time . and social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted , including from health and education , so it 's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them . i do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points . as i 've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments , we 're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services , and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation . welsh government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications . i can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued , and i 've asked officials to prepare a revised ria , as recommended at stage 2 , and i expect to share an updated ria with you in advance of stage 3. serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the bill , but i think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given , particularly to this committee , from the professionals at the front line . what the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within government , and it 's not clear why , in the context of the evidence heard at stage i , such provisions are necessary . i 'm sure that members will agree that future governments need to be able to consider , within the context of the budget-setting process , what the priorities are , and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time , for example taking into account any issues that there are—uk government actions , what happens in relation to brexit , or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or welsh society . all those issues would have to be taken into account . furthermore , as is the case now , the national assembly for wales scrutinises the welsh government budget annually , so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies , should it consider that this is required . i do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding , so i urge members to reject these amendments , which i believe are unnecessary . janet finch-saunders am: chair , could i ask a question ? lynne neagle am: you can reply to the debate now , janet , yes . janet finch-saunders am: i 'd like to ask a question of the deputy minister . when we were taking evidence , at an earlier stage , i noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across wales . now , we have 22 local authorities . at that time , the numbers mentioned were quite small—i think only a handful . what discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead , the cabinet members , or , indeed , the head of service ? i can speak from my own experiences , when going around my constituency , but when i 've spoken to some of the family support groups , and , indeed , the departments themselves , they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision . they 're already overstretched , and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden . so , how much have you engaged with them ? julie morgan am: there 's been extensive engagement . we 've had meetings with the association of directors of social services , and they 're represented on all our groups , and we 're working very closely with them , because , of course , they represent all the local authorities . but i have to say , when i 've been going round and meeting lots of different groups , the first thing they say is , ' i 'm so glad that you 're doing this ' , and they have n't mentioned any financial implications . but , obviously , we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up . janet finch-saunders am: okay . so , i 'll still move my amendments . i 'm disappointed , really . i was hoping to see some commitment to—this bill was going to go through , and it 's one that could be implemented fully , because sufficient resources were there . i 'm not convinced about that , and i know that other organisations are not also . so , i move my amendments . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 11 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 11 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 12 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] all those in favour of amendment 12. all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 12 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . i move amendment 4 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 4 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 4 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 4 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 5 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 5 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 5 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 5 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 6 , then , in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 6 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 6 is therefore agreed . this takes us , then , to the fifth and final group , which relates to commencement . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of suzy davies . and i call suzy davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing , but it 's the lead amendment in the group , so i 'll move it to begin the debate . minister , i 'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically . you 've said repeatedly , and i believe you , that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children . you could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement , but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law , where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted , but liability to prosecution , not just liability to civil sanctions . i 'm sure you 'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted , but that decision does not and can not lie with you . you , like us , have no agency in this , because the powers and the duties of the police and the crown prosecution service sit outside our competence . you can not and we can not , by law or otherwise , instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents . you 've acknowledged to this committee and the constitutional and legislative affairs committee that revised cps charging guidance and any other guidance on , for example , out-of-court disposals , are key to delivering your policy objectives . you 'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group , is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like . so , you 're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force , the frequency of the offence , any prior conviction , any prior reporting , not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced , or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals ; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest , let alone charging . and you argue that the rights of the child are what matter , and i agree with you here , but everybody , adult or child , has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure , and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage . now , clac recommended that any revised guidance be made available to ams before stage 3. i anticipate that that 's unlikely , and i hope i 'm wrong , but that 's why janet and i have tabled amendments 10 and 15 , which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that cps guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed . that reflects our recommendation 4 , this committee 's recommendation , as well as clac 's recommendation 1. it gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment , even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded . and you have not addressed these in your own amendments . i have to say , minister , i think these points are so serious that i would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking royal assent for this bill until the assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and cps . i 'd have sought a report stage , if i could , so that we could consider that evidence . but i 'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled , 10 and 15 , so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately can not control once this bill has passed . now , i know you 've got the numbers to pass this bill , whether you accept amendments or not , but i just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a bill that changes a person 's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that , and you 're inviting this assembly to fall into the same trap . i therefore urge the assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . are there other members who wish to speak ? no . janet , do you want to speak ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , i wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. amendment 14 , however , is consequential to amendment 16 passing . amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the welsh government . as was clear during the committee 's evidence sessions , present welsh government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage . for example , the capacity and reach of the healthy child wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising , with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved , with 53.2 per cent of children in wales reported as being contacted . furthermore , existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas , such as flying start , and even the children 's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children . now , the deputy minister mentioned the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents . however , the deputy minister was challenged on this fact , that this is an online campaign only , and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake . consequently , it should be remembered that this bill will affect all parents . therefore , the deputy minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . deputy minister . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i 've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during stage 1. as a result , i have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law . my amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the bill by order of the welsh ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after royal assent . that was done to give certainty on the length of time . up to then , we 'd always said 'up to two years'—well , we 're giving two years . this certainty will allow key partners , including the police , social services and the crown prosecution service , to plan for changes to guidance , training and data-collection systems more effectively . it 'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign . my amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision , which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6 , and we discussed those in the previous group . i 've listened to the arguments put forward by suzy davies and janet finch-saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled . these amendments are all about making the commencement of the bill conditional on something else happening , whether it 's waiting for the revision of crown prosecution service guidance , or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system , or for the provision of parenting support services . and , really , i do n't think that we should be going down that road . as i set out in my letter of response to the stage 1 report from the constitutional and legislative affairs committee , we 've got good working relations with the cps through the strategic implementation group , and we work very closely with them . but the cps are an independent body , as suzy davies has said in her contribution , not answerable to welsh ministers or this legislature , and it 's not appropriate for a minister or the national assembly to seek to influence the cps guidelines . we 're discussing the issues with the cps in the implementation group . and , in fact , i think that these amendments—suzy 's amendments in particular—would n't just seek to influence the cps , but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in wales . so , i do n't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided . i think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship , very close working relationship . and i know they did give evidence to your committee , i believe , the cps . and i think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence , or not , assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty , i think , if we did go down that track , because i think this is very important welsh legislation , which does have broad support across the assembly . and i do n't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation . so , i do n't support those amendments . i think the cps is entirely independent of government , and must be entirely independent of government , and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance . in addition , you suggest we allow the uk government to have a say in when welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the assembly . the test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain . if these amendments passed , it would be very difficult , if not impossible , to judge when section 1 could be commenced . this contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for , and raises huge uncertainty , which potentially jeopardises the bill . and i want to assure you again , not only do we have good working relations with the cps , but also very good working relationships with the police , who are , of course , the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues . the work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the bill 's commencement . in fact , it 's the other way round . my amendment to provide a two-year period between royal assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force . and then , when it comes to parenting support , the committee knows that i 've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support , and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue . i have already said i will expand the age range of the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign , and i think— . i know janet finch-saunders has made the point that it is an online facility . it is very widely used . it is a very successful tool . but , of course , the universal services are also there . for example , the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial , and that is a service that is for every child . and , of course , the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly . and the expert group is considering what it 'll recommend for the future , and it needs the time to be able to do that , to support the bill as well as to support parenting more widely . so , as i said , i think these are important points that you have raised , but i do n't think they are appropriate . so , i therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10 , nor 13 , 14 and 15 . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy to reply to the debate . suzy davies am: thank you very much , and thank you very much , deputy minister , as well . i 'm disappointed that you have n't seen what 's behind janet finch-saunders 's final amendment there , actually . maybe it 's something we 'll raise again with you at stage 3 , or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then . but i want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that i 've raised and your assertion that we 're giving , or attempting to give , power to the cps here . we are not . this amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area . and this is why i go back to where my contribution to this started , and it 's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or , sorry , to try and protect children 's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence . this bill—and , actually , you 've said a couple of times in your response today that it 's important that it 's commenced on a certain date . my argument is : it should n't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence . and , while i claim no mischief on the part of the cps or the police—obviously i don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the cps , should they wish to do it , or indeed the police with their own guidelines , putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence . and , because of that , i ask you to consider , or balance , actually , two important things here : one is the rights of the child , obviously at the forefront of your argument on this , which i would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion ; and , actually , the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you can not allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing . the relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family , but that 's something you ought to protect in what you 're trying to do here , and by leaving it open , as you say , to completely different—sorry , undevolved , two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me . i know this is n't going to stop your bill going forward , but i really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at stage 3 , because leaving , effectively , the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control , despite your great relationship with them , should worry us all as a legislature . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , suzy . do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9 ? suzy davies am: oh , because of the voting order— . yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 9 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 9 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 9 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 13 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 13 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 13 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 13 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 14 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 14 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 14 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 14 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 7 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 7 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 7 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against . amendment 7 is agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 10 ? suzy davies am: yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 10 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 10 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 10 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 15 ? janet finch-saunders am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 15 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 15 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 15 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 16 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 16 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 16 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 16 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 8 , then , in the name of the minister . the question is that amendment 8 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 8 is therefore agreed . well , that has brought us to the end of our amendments , so can i thank the deputy minister and her officials for their attendance ? as usual , you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy . this completes stage 2 proceedings . stage 3 begins tomorrow , and the relevant date of stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course . standing orders make provision for the deputy minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum , taking account of the amendments agreed today . the revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before stage 3 proceedings . thank you very much . julie morgan am: thank you all very much . lynne neagle am: okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the deputy minister for health and social services , following our meeting on 2 october . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services updating the committee on the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' strategy . and paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the deputy minister for health and social services regarding early childhood education and care , following the session that we held on 2 october . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

the deputy minister had provided assurance that she agreed with the importance placed on the post-implementation review , and made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . amendment 2c would require welsh minister to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced , and the deputy minister thought this amendment was unnecessary and was in conflict with what she thought was a priority for the implementation of this bill . the deputy minister did not want to support amendments 2a , 2c and 2e to 2k , because these amendments made little difference in terms of practical effect to what they had in the bill already . in conclusion , she would ask members to reject the non-government amendments and agree to amendments 2 and 5 .

summarize janet-finch-saunders ' opinion on amendments in group 2 that relate to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask if there are any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill : stage 2 proceedings . i 'm pleased to welcome julie morgan am , deputy minister for health and social services ; karen cornish , deputy director , children and families division at welsh government ; and emma gammon , lawyer for welsh government . thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee . i 'm just going to run through the procedures that we 're going to follow now . as i said , the purpose of the meeting is to undertake stage 2 proceedings on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . for these proceedings , members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments , the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments . the marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled , marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the bill . the order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is , sections 1 to 3 and the long title . you will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate . however , the order in which they 're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list . members will , therefore , need to follow the two papers , although i will advise members when i call them whether they 're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision . there will be one debate on each group of amendments . members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way . i will call the deputy minister to speak on each group . for the record , in accordance with the convention agreed by the business committee , as chair i will move amendments in the name of the deputy minister . for expediency , i will assume that the deputy minister wishes me to move all of her amendments , and i will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list . deputy minister , if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved , please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings . in line with our usual practice , legal advisers to the committee and the deputy minister are not expected to provide advice on the record . if members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings , please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and , if necessary , we can adjourn . my intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today 's meeting . i will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time , if necessary . okay , thank you . so , we will proceed , then , to group 1 , which is the duty to promote public awareness . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 1 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . my amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on welsh ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the act commences . i tabled these amendments in response to this committee 's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the stage 1 report , so i have responded to that . i 've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from royal assent , should the bill be passed . i 've considered amendments 1a to 1e , which have been tabled by janet finch-saunders , and which relate to the duty to raise awareness . amendment 1a introduces a reference to public understanding . we do n't think , actually , that this adds anything to the government amendment , which already mentions awareness . it makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit , which is not necessary . by commencement , messaging around the change in the law will be embedded . the awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years . therefore , an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required . i understand , of course , that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive , well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change , and understand how to respond to it . but i do n't think it 's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups , such as visitors to wales , on the face of the bill—that 's the approach taken in amendment 1e—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others . in relation to children , the committee will know that i 'm fully committed to children ’ s rights , and that welsh ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions . an additional due regard requirement , such as the one set out in amendment 1d , relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed . this would be part and parcel of the welsh government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making . similarly , i do n't think it 's necessary for the bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign , as is suggested in amendments 1b and 1c . that level of detail , i do n't think , is for the face of the bill . information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group , under the auspices of the bill ’ s strategic implementation group , working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign . and , really , their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the bill . i think we always need to bear in mind that what the bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence ; it does not create a new offence . and in this context , it does n't make sense for this bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished . as i set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point , safeguarding is everyone ’ s business , and , as now , the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child . i 'm asking for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4 , and i ask members to reject amendments 1a to 1e because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . are there other members who wish to speak ? janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i wish to speak to amendments 1a to 1e , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness . while we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law , the deputy minister 's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. an important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that i 've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign , which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the bill , but serves as a duty for future administrations . amendment 1a : primarily , amendment 1a changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law . i do n't think it 's enough for the welsh government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the welsh government 's objectives have been achieved . despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour , the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors . instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence , this law will remove a defence for parents , information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives , potentially separate parents , and could affect employment chances . as such , whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign , it is important too that the welsh government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign . the witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— lynne neagle am: janet , dawn is asking if you 'll take an intervention . janet finch-saunders am: yes . dawn bowden am: i just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there 's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it 's been passed ? janet finch-saunders am: there 's a lot of legislation . the first assembly term when i was here— dawn bowden am: yes , what i 'm asking— janet finch-saunders am: i 'm trying to respond— dawn bowden am: what i 'm asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? janet finch-saunders am: the very first term that i was an assembly member , we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation . even today , as i sit here , the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation . this particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in wales . so , therefore , i think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved , and i shall speak now— dawn bowden am: with respect , chair , that 's not the question i asked . janet finch-saunders am: —to my amendments . lynne neagle am: i can call you in the debate , if you 'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this . yes . janet finch-saunders am: the witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications . and that 's what we 're talking about here , members—the implications of removing this defence . strikingly , the office of police and crime commissioner for gwent stated the following : 'the potential for public resistance to the bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation . ' if you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment , it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this bill . additionally , the committee found that while the current welsh government 's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt , future governments may have less of a commitment . this places further weight on the fact that the welsh government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the bill beyond its commencement . furthermore , the children ( equal protection from assault ) ( scotland ) bill quite clearly notes that , under section 2 , the scottish ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister can respond as to the reasons why the welsh government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment . [ interruption . ] should our amendment be agreed— lynne neagle am: are you taking an intervention ? janet finch-saunders am: no . i 'd rather crack on , to be honest . lynne neagle am: okay . i can call you in the debate , hefin . janet finch-saunders am: should our amendment to be agreed , we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. amendment 1b : amendment 1b is in line with the committee 's recommendation 9 , which stated that , as part of a public awareness campaign , there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children . during evidence at stage 1 , the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence . for example , children in wales , action for children and play wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support . welsh government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need . now , while the deputy minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information , a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future welsh governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign . i note the deputy minister accepted the recommendation , through our amendment , but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents . as will be expanded upon later , the deputy minister has relied upon the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising . however , this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups . amendment 1c : amendment 1c supports the committee 's recommendation 15 that explains that the welsh government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted . we urged , at stage 1 , that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment , regardless of the bill , other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded . in particular , some were worried that children , who may not realise the implications of reporting , could make allegations that are actually untrue . while we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations , this could also be reflected among adults , if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault . lynne neagle am: thank you . i 've got several speakers . i 've got suzy davies first , then dawn bowden . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . thank you minister , and thank you , janet , for that . i think it 's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by janet there are based on committee recommendations , and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large , but also you as well . so , that suggests that , at that stage , we were n't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report . now , i recognise that you 've moved some way on some of these amendments , and we 'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups . but the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation , now—that means that this is the instrument of the assembly , not of government , and if this assembly feels that the face of the bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign , then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign . the list that janet has given is a minimum . the reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be , so it will be disappointing to hear that you 're rejecting them all , and the reason they need to go on the face of the bill is that , if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation , at the moment we have no reassurance about how you 're going to do that—about what input the assembly , on behalf of our constituents , could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign . unless you accept some amendments in other groups , that is the position with this bill : the influence of the assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign . in terms of it being non-time limited , i think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting , never-ending campaign of awareness raising . but if you bear in mind that , seven years after the introduction of this bill , there 's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the bill , what is the point of doing that if you do n't then have an obligation , should the reports require it to be necessary , to continue promoting the changes in the law ? i accept that that ca n't go on for centuries , but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive , and which has a reach beyond our boundaries , i think is genuinely a mistake . finally , you mention that safeguarding is everyone 's business . i think that 's true , but i think janet finch-saunders was right to say that members of the public , ordinary individuals , not professionals , will need assurance that they 're doing the right thing . the amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that , although that can be read in that way , but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing . if this is going to be up to the individual , as you 've said , and the committee itself was n't reassured that individuals would know what to do , perhaps i can ask you to consider at stage 3 , if you 're going to reject this amendment , how you can reassure members of the public that , if they are going to intervene on the back of this law , they 're making things better , not worse . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . dawn . dawn bowden am: my comments , really , relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns , which i think all of us would want to see , and would appreciate in any changes in legislation . my point , really , is that we have a plethora of legislation that this assembly has passed in the last 20 years , and i 'm not aware of any legislation where , on the face of the bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis . it seems to me that , for some reason , you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation . from what the deputy minister is saying—and perhaps i will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign . that awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it . it could also , i assume , deputy minister , be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use . but the point i 'm trying to make is that i do n't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns , and particularly in relation to visitors to wales . again , we have other pieces of legislation in wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the uk . i am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do n't . and similarly , when we go to visit countries that have different legislation , we do n't necessarily know what legislation we 're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws . so , my key point , chair , is just the necessity of an ongoing , endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the bill . lynne neagle am: thank you , dawn . hefin . hefin david am: my comments follow logically from dawn bowden 's comments , particularly in relation to amendments 1d and 1e . what you would be doing is that this senedd , if this was on the face of the bill , the duty on ministers , would be putting the duty on ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth senedd , into the next senedd term , and putting that duty on those newly elected ministers after that , which , in principle , would be against the principles of binding— lynne neagle am: hefin , are you taking an intervention from suzy ? hefin david am: yes , happy to . suzy davies am: when you 've finished your point . hefin david am: i 'm happy to take it now , because i was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made , actually . suzy davies am: i 'd love that . you referred to this potentially binding ministers in future assemblies ; at the moment , we 've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this act into the assembly after next . i 'm wondering if you 're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on . hefin david am: well , when we get to that amendment , i 'll make comments if i feel it necessary . but at this point in time , we 're talking about amendments 1d and 1e , and particularly in relation to 1d and 1e it just is n't necessary , given the fact that—i wo n't call it a concession , because i think you made a reasonable point about the minister making a statement at stage 3 , and i think dawn bowden actually supported that as well . that , therefore , makes those amendments unnecessary . given that , in these circumstances , it is unnecessary to bind ministers in future parliaments . and that 's my key point , really , which is why i would n't vote for those two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you . siân . sian gwenllian am: thank you very much . i just want to speak against amendment 1a and also amendment 1b . i do n't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign , as is outlined in 1a . i agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change , and therefore i 'm very glad to see that the government has brought forward amendment 1 , and i do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change . in terms of amendment 1b , i do have sympathy with what is being said here , but i believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the government , through various programmes , and it should not be an addition on the face of this bill , which deals with a small change to the common law . and then , on 1d also , if i may—i do n't agree with this either . again , i believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children , but that should happen through the children 's rights convention , as part of a broader programme to promote children 's rights . lynne neagle am: thank you , siân . i call on the deputy minister to speak , then . julie morgan am: thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today . i just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the bill , and i absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the bill . i 'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee 's interest and the work that you 've done in this area of work . but i do think that these amendments are unnecessary . if we go through them , amendment 1a is really open-ended on promoting public awareness . we 're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from royal assent , and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign . all the points that you 've been making will be being considered by that group . i think the level of detail on the face of the bill is not needed . suzy davies am: okay . would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? a two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that— julie morgan am: six-year . suzy davies am: i thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force . julie morgan am: we 've got six years from royal assent . suzy davies am: oh , so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— julie morgan am: yes . oh yes , it 's going to continue . suzy davies am: that 's very helpful . julie morgan am: definitely , yes . so , i do n't think that 's needed , amendment 1a . amendment 1b , about support available to parents and how to access it—again , this level of detail is not required on the face of the bill . i just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group , who are working on all aspects of this bill , many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee . the bill is a simple one , with a clear purpose . it aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment . i think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting , but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development , and they 're not required on the face of the bill . so , i 'm not putting them down , i 'm just saying that we do n't need them to be there on the face of the bill . and then amendment 1c—the information about how to raise concerns—i do repeat that safeguarding is everybody 's business , and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed . amendment 1d—ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now , children 's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making , and the entire bill is about protecting the rights of children . so , it is unnecessary duplication . so , we hope that the bill will remain focused . again , in terms of visitors , the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the bill . our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive . and then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised , revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of stage 3. so , there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment . the issue that was raised about the scottish bill , that it refers to 'understanding'—now , the scottish bill was not a government bill , it was a private member 's bill , and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding ' ; 'awareness ' is sufficient . so , basically , i think that the points made have been very useful , but i urge committee members to accept my amendments , but to reject those proposed by janet finch-saunders , as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 1 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1a ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection . i therefore take a vote by show of hands . the question is that amendment 1a be agreed . all those in favour , please raise your hands . all those against . there voted two in favour , four against . so , amendment 1a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1b ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 1b be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1b . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 1b is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . all those in favour of amendment 1c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1c is not agreed . janet , do you want to move amendment 1d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 1d be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , as there 's an objection , i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1d , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1d is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 1e ? janet finch-saunders am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . the question is that amendment 1e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 1e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 1e is not agreed . if amendment 1 is not agreed , amendment 2c and amendment 4 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . i move amendment 1 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 1 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we have an objection , so we 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 1. all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 1 is agreed . we 'll move on now then to group 2 , which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 , in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 2 in the deputy minister 's name , and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments , and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . the amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the bill , and i believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee , so you strongly influenced this amendment . it 's clear from members ' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment . i 've already provided assurance that i agree with the importance placed on such a review , both in the explanatory memorandum and during stage 1 scrutiny . i also made a commitment to bring forward a government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the bill . i have done this with amendment 2. amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after royal assent . as i said in my responses to the stage 1 committee report , and as set out in the explanatory memorandum , the post-implementation review of this bill will not be a single piece of work , but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. firstly , we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys , which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment . the surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign . secondly , through a dedicated task and finish group , we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the bill and to consider the possible impact on services . turning to amendment 2c , this amendment would require welsh ministers to prepare and lay before the assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced . this amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what i think is a priority for the implementation of this bill : that is , given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders . i also think this amendment is not required because , as i 've already stated , we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising . in june , i shared the findings of a representative survey , which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation . i shared this with the committee . lynne neagle am: thank you , deputy minister . i open it up for discussion now , then . janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . i speak to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which relate to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment . again , i must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outline what we would expect to be within this report , and we would wish to see a commitment from the deputy minister to ensure the national assembly for wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report . amendment 2c requests that the welsh government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the assembly before section 1 commences . as i have outlined under my amendments in group 1 , the understanding of the public about the implications of the bill can not be sidelined . although the deputy minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign , we , as the national assembly for wales , must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins . as i noted under amendments 1b to 1e , there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the bill 's effect . i 'm sure that the deputy minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness . it is , therefore , important for the assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people . as will also be elaborated under amendment 2d , it is extremely important that we , as the parliament of wales , are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact . before we implement what will be a criminal offence , it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign . therefore , i would be grateful if the deputy minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign 's effects before section 1 commences . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . deputy minister , first of all , can i just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2b ? i 'll come to that a little bit later , if i may . i just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you 'll be rejecting amendment 2c here . i actually do n't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all . it 's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that 's in the draft bill at the moment . so , failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well , rather than anything intrinsic in the bill , so i 'm not sure i can accept your argument on that . and , on 2d—very pleased to hear that you 'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying ' rather than 'publishing ' at stage 3 , but , in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature , perhaps i could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage , because it does n't make any difference . your amendment is going to pass , and this amendment to it would be—i think the gesture there would be very much appreciated . i 'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2a and 2b , but i want to begin , again , by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the bill on the issue of reporting , because i know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity ; you mentioned it earlier . but this is not a newid bychan , i 'm afraid , siân ; the terms and the effect of this bill are quite extensive , and it does need the reassurances , if you like , necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this bill on families where parents ' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute . it does need statutory underpinning . so , i am grateful to you for accepting this duty . i know that you 're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment , and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear . but , if this were me bringing forward this bill , i think i 'd want to show the world that i was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do . amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed . there are acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that . if you 're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change , and i think that is what you 're expecting—you know , showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment , reducing the number of , and indeed the likelihood of , parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—i really would have thought you 'd want people to know sooner , or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that . waiting five years , i think , will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years , and this is why i 'm grateful to you for your offer , because there may be a way where we can overcome that . if the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so , basically , in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that 's great , but there 's a possibility it 's going to reverse . again , i do n't think i 'd want to wait five years to find that out . for myself , i think one year would probably be enough , but i think three years is a reasonable compromise , as opposed to five years , for a reporting period . i think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a bill 's effectiveness . i ca n't see the reason for quite that length of time—i know you 've talked about new zealand—but neither can the constitutional and legislative affairs committee . i think that 's worth pointing out . when they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report , they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny . that 's something i think we perhaps need to bear in mind now , as we enter this period of the consolidation of law . five/seven years is really something of an outlier , and while that might have been appropriate , perhaps , in new zealand , i do n't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in wales , and , of course , there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years , and i note that you have n't drawn on them in order to support your argument . so , can i urge members and the minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? i do n't think it 's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point , hefin—that we not only wo n't hear in this assembly , we wo n't hear in the next assembly , about the formal evaluation of this , unless i follow— hefin david am: i wo n't intervene ; i 'll speak . suzy davies am: is that okay ? hefin david am: yes , i 'll make the point . lynne neagle am: okay , i 've got— suzy davies am: yes , i 'll take the intervention . lynne neagle am: no , he does n't want to make an intervention— hefin david am: i wo n't do an intervention ; i 'll speak . lynne neagle am: —he 'll make a contribution . suzy davies am: oh , apologies— hefin david am: just to say— suzy davies am: i 'll wait . hefin david am: well , let me put the intervention— . i 'll do it as an intervention , then . i just feel that—i take your point , and i was expecting it . the point i was making about 1d and 1e is they close down choices to ministers in future assemblies . an evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future parliaments more options with regard to this bill , so i think it 's entirely consistent . i do n't think the minister , in putting in amendment 2 , was trying to undermine my argument . actually , i think she 's being constructive by doing that , and i think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that 's quite helpful , and its consequence will be to open up choices to future parliaments , whereas my objection to 1d and 1e is they close those down . suzy davies am: okay , well , as i say , i think , actually , the deputy minister 's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this . because i 'm not 100 per cent sure i accept your argument , either , because it closes it down for the interim period if we do n't move on with the deputy minister 's suggestion—which i 'll talk about now , actually . because i am tempted to accept your offer . it absolutely makes sense and it 's clearly made with the best good faith here . but i need some clarity on what you would allow this assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report . because you 've been very clear that you do n't want to accept the things that janet finch-saunders has been talking about in a final report , and yet i can tell you we want to hear about these things . so , if you 're in a position where you can give a commitment at stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report , but that you will consult with , perhaps , this committee—i 'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report , what we would want to see tested , then i 'll be minded not to move amendment 2b . if you ca n't give me that reassurance , then i 'm going to move it anyway and we 'll return to it at stage 3 , if you do n't mind . just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable , and i do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to . again , at stage 3 , i 'm happy if you want to make three months six months , or something like that , but 'as soon as practicable ' is open ended , and what you think is practicable may be very different from what i or my constituents think is practicable . so , i do n't want to stick with what is practicable ; i would like you to put a date on this . if it 's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties , i think that 's fairly reasonable as well , but i 'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes , i welcome adding to the bill through amendment 2 , and what you 've said today also , that you 're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the bill , and to lay a report before the assembly . i am interested in what suzy is saying , and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods , and not say 'when it will be practicable ' . therefore , i would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the minister regarding these issues . suzy davies am: i would like to . thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . any other members ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: well , just to start off on that point , i think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss , i think i 'm very happy to accept that . so , i 'm happy to discuss that with you , and with the committee , before the third stage . so , i hope you will consider removing— . suzy davies am: no , genuinely i am . julie morgan am: right , thank you . well , just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised , on the issue of training now , i think janet raised a number of points about training , and we do have an operations , procedures , processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work , and they are considering guidance and training requirements . there are many professional bodies represented on that group , many of whom i think have given evidence here today , and they 've really got a chance to have their say . the officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at stage 3 , so there will be more information about training there . but we have this group looking at it , and it is very key . generally , i think that all the contributions are very helpful , and i know they 're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation . i ca n't support amendments 2a , 2c , and amendments 2e to 2k , because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the bill already , or they 're covered by the government amendments that i 've moved . but i do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough , multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services . now , tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points , so there 's no question there of having to wait ; we 'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes . suzy davies am: would you take an intervention there , deputy minister ? thank you very much . of course , i appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments , but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? so , even if this is not a statutory commitment , what exactly from our list , our wish list here , would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? julie morgan am: well , i would actually have thought all of them . all the areas you 've raised are very relevant , i think . obviously , this is not a statutory thing i 'm saying , but— suzy davies am: no , no , and this is not a— julie morgan am: yes , but considering those points you 've put forward , i think all of them have got a great deal of relevance . we will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you 've suggested and , in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group , which is about developing methods to collect data , we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you 've made on those issues . so , i do n't see any problem with that at all . suzy davies am: thank you . julie morgan am: so , as i say , i ca n't support the amendments . i 'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—i think one of yours and it was one of janet 's , was n't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage . because i am sympathetic to your views on these matters , and i think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well . so , i 'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at stage 3. in line with the recommendations of the finance committee , further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at stage 3. so , i think at this point i would ask that members reject the non-government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 , which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the bill , with the exception , obviously , of those two amendments , which i 'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , deputy minister . before disposing of amendment 2 , we will deal with the amendments to that amendment . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2c ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2c be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2c , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2c is lost . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2a ? suzy davies am: i move amendment 2a , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2a , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2a is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2d ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: janet , do you wish to move amendment 2e ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2e be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2e , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2e is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2f ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2f be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2f ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2f is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2g ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2g be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , can i see all those in favour of amendment 2g ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against , and amendment 2g is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2h ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2h be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so can i see all those in favour of amendment 2h ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2h is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2i ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2i be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay . can i see all those in favour of amendment 2i ? all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2i is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2j ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2j be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . can i see all those in favour of 2j ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2j is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 2k ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 2k be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i 'll therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 2k ? all those against ? so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 2k is not agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 2b ? suzy davies am: in view of the deputy minister 's reassurances , i wo n't move this amendment today , but obviously i reserve the right to bring something back if we ca n't reach consensus . thank you . lynne neagle am: does any other member wish to move amendment 2b ? okay , no . thank you . we 'll move on , then . if amendment 2 is not agreed , amendment 5 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: thank you . the question is that amendment 2 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 2— suzy davies am: objection . lynne neagle am: you 're objecting ? suzy davies am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . right , we 'll therefore take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 2 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 2 is agreed . that takes us on to group 3 , which relates to the regulation-making powers in the bill . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the deputy minister . i move amendment 3 in the deputy minister 's name and call on the deputy minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group . julie morgan am: thank you very much , chair . members will note that i 've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the bill , which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment . and that is going to be debated under group 5. so , we 're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here , basically . as a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a welsh minister to make an order for commencement , the power to make transitory , transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the bill coming into force would also be removed . so , i 'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the bill ; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it , and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after royal assent . in fact , removing the power for the welsh ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended . these amendments are technical in nature and while i acknowledge that the constitutional and legislative affairs committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied , their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied . the absence of an assembly procedure does not mean that ministers ' decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the assembly . any concerns about the welsh ministers ' proposals could be put to me in the senedd . this was a point made to clac and , as i say , their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power . for those reasons , i encourage members to reject amendment 3a from suzy . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . well perhaps , deputy minister , i can begin by saying that one person 's technical issue is another person 's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny . but i thank you for noting the assembly 's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this bill—this time by clac , as you say . moving this—and i 'm glad actually that amendment 8 , i think it was , has removed an order provision and we 're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here . i have to say that amendment 3a is something of a probing amendment , and i 'll explain why now . your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 , but it 's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it 's not a separate commencement power . and , actually , i 've been listening to the rest of this debate , and thinking that , if you 're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report , the chances are you 're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas , i think . and i 'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory , transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this bill . i 'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented , bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original , very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft . as i say , in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 i tabled this , in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 , when it comes into effect , onto the floor of the assembly . because while i completely accept that you 've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on , it 's still possible to do that without procedure , and so i have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure . amendment 3a is a holding position , which we will return to you in stage 3 , because i think , again , this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you 're looking for , because i think you probably need something that 's beyond transitional , transitory and saving . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , have you finished ? suzy davies am: yes , thank you very much . lynne neagle am: are there any other members who wish to speak on this group ? no . deputy minister . julie morgan am: i thank suzy for that input . we do n't actually think it 's necessary to have wider powers , but we will keep this under review and at stage 3 , i think that— . when i was looking at this , i was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage , but i can understand that there may be links to other bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers . so , basically , i do n't think it is necessary to have wider powers , but i can assure you that we 'll keep that in review coming up to stage 3 . suzy davies am: can i just ask a question on the back of that ? lynne neagle am: will you take a brief intervention at the end , minister ? suzy davies am: will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? julie morgan am: i was going to end there , yes . suzy davies am: right , okay , well , just before your full stop , would you just confirm that you 're happy for us to discuss this before stage 3 ? julie morgan am: yes , very happy . yes . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . before disposing of amendment 3 , we will deal with the amendment to that amendment . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 3a ? suzy davies am: i 'll move it , yes . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3a be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , i 'll take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour of amendment 3a . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 3a is not agreed . if amendment 3 is not agreed , amendment 6 will fall . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 3 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 3 is therefore agreed . the committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. can i welcome members back ? we will move on to group 4 , which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of janet finch-saunders . i call on janet finch-saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i speak to both amendments in this group . as i outlined under amendments 2i and 2j , there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment . now , it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic . as i have mentioned previously , these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services . furthermore , the welsh local government association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are , those costs are met , because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . now , during evidence , the deputy minister , when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate . ' but you could n't commit to a broad figure , instead telling us that : 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us . ' and : 'we have to measure it as we go along . ' given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes , we only think it is fair for the welsh government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this bill . now , while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards , i note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by welsh government . anticipating the deputy minister 's response that few under this category , if any at all , would be affected by the bill , we are pursuing a principle here , and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the deputy minister . now , these are just two examples of welsh government legislation to date that have been underfunded . the active travel ( wales ) act 2013 : last year , the economy , infrastructure and skills committee found that the wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of england 's and one sixth of holland 's . furthermore , the committee highlighted that the passing of the act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes , but were constrained by the funding made available to them . the minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million . now , my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel act to become a meaningful piece of legislation , and the same goes with the well-being of future generations ( wales ) act 2015. this month , the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding . outside of the welsh government 's regional grant that can not be spent on projects , councils often contribute through officer time or facilities , but resources and capacity to support those psbs remain a key risk , as partners do n't have the capacity to take on more . the reason that i wanted these amendments placed in here is i genuinely do not believe that you 've even envisioned what , or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations , and certainly our local authorities and health boards , the impact this bill is going to have . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . are there other members who would like to speak in this group , please ? no . okay . i call the deputy minister , then . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i can understand that the member is concerned about the impact of this bill on public services , but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the bill that we 've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this bill before introduction . and as far as we 're aware , no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation , and also comprehensively prepared for implementation . we 've explored the published data , which is available from other countries , on the impact of measures they 've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children . we 've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in ireland , new zealand and malta , who have legal systems similar to our own . and in these countries , there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform . and stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs , and i think we should trust their judgment on this . in fact , as this committee notes in its stage 1 report , those delivering services on the front line have said , without exception , that 'this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in wales because it will make the law clear . ' sally jenkins of the association of directors of social services said to this committee : 'in terms of thresholds for children ’ s services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that ’ s likely to happen . ' that 's from the front line . jane randall , chair of the national independent safeguarding board wales , said : 'there 's no expectation that there 's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services , i think it would be dealt with within their existing resources . ' and dr rowena christmas , royal college of general practitioners , said : ' i ca n't see it 's going to lengthen consultations . i ca n't see that it 's going to increase the number of consultations , and i do n't think it 's going to increase the number of referrals i make to the health visitor or to social services , because if i was worried , i 'd make those referrals now regardless of the bill . ' i just want to say again that the bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault , which has formed part of the common law of england and wales for a very long time . and social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted , including from health and education , so it 's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them . i do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points . as i 've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments , we 're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services , and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation . welsh government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications . i can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued , and i 've asked officials to prepare a revised ria , as recommended at stage 2 , and i expect to share an updated ria with you in advance of stage 3. serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the bill , but i think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given , particularly to this committee , from the professionals at the front line . what the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within government , and it 's not clear why , in the context of the evidence heard at stage i , such provisions are necessary . i 'm sure that members will agree that future governments need to be able to consider , within the context of the budget-setting process , what the priorities are , and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time , for example taking into account any issues that there are—uk government actions , what happens in relation to brexit , or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or welsh society . all those issues would have to be taken into account . furthermore , as is the case now , the national assembly for wales scrutinises the welsh government budget annually , so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies , should it consider that this is required . i do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding , so i urge members to reject these amendments , which i believe are unnecessary . janet finch-saunders am: chair , could i ask a question ? lynne neagle am: you can reply to the debate now , janet , yes . janet finch-saunders am: i 'd like to ask a question of the deputy minister . when we were taking evidence , at an earlier stage , i noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across wales . now , we have 22 local authorities . at that time , the numbers mentioned were quite small—i think only a handful . what discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead , the cabinet members , or , indeed , the head of service ? i can speak from my own experiences , when going around my constituency , but when i 've spoken to some of the family support groups , and , indeed , the departments themselves , they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision . they 're already overstretched , and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden . so , how much have you engaged with them ? julie morgan am: there 's been extensive engagement . we 've had meetings with the association of directors of social services , and they 're represented on all our groups , and we 're working very closely with them , because , of course , they represent all the local authorities . but i have to say , when i 've been going round and meeting lots of different groups , the first thing they say is , ' i 'm so glad that you 're doing this ' , and they have n't mentioned any financial implications . but , obviously , we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up . janet finch-saunders am: okay . so , i 'll still move my amendments . i 'm disappointed , really . i was hoping to see some commitment to—this bill was going to go through , and it 's one that could be implemented fully , because sufficient resources were there . i 'm not convinced about that , and i know that other organisations are not also . so , i move my amendments . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 11 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] i therefore take a vote by show of hands . all those in favour . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 11 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 12 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] all those in favour of amendment 12. all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 12 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: okay . i move amendment 4 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 4 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 4 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 4 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 5 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 5 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 5 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against , and amendment 5 is agreed . deputy minister , do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6 ? julie morgan am: yes . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 6 , then , in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 6 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 6 is therefore agreed . this takes us , then , to the fifth and final group , which relates to commencement . the lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of suzy davies . and i call suzy davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group . suzy davies am: thank you very much , chair . amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing , but it 's the lead amendment in the group , so i 'll move it to begin the debate . minister , i 'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically . you 've said repeatedly , and i believe you , that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children . you could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement , but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law , where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted , but liability to prosecution , not just liability to civil sanctions . i 'm sure you 'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted , but that decision does not and can not lie with you . you , like us , have no agency in this , because the powers and the duties of the police and the crown prosecution service sit outside our competence . you can not and we can not , by law or otherwise , instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents . you 've acknowledged to this committee and the constitutional and legislative affairs committee that revised cps charging guidance and any other guidance on , for example , out-of-court disposals , are key to delivering your policy objectives . you 'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group , is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like . so , you 're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force , the frequency of the offence , any prior conviction , any prior reporting , not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced , or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals ; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest , let alone charging . and you argue that the rights of the child are what matter , and i agree with you here , but everybody , adult or child , has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure , and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage . now , clac recommended that any revised guidance be made available to ams before stage 3. i anticipate that that 's unlikely , and i hope i 'm wrong , but that 's why janet and i have tabled amendments 10 and 15 , which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that cps guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed . that reflects our recommendation 4 , this committee 's recommendation , as well as clac 's recommendation 1. it gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment , even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded . and you have not addressed these in your own amendments . i have to say , minister , i think these points are so serious that i would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking royal assent for this bill until the assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and cps . i 'd have sought a report stage , if i could , so that we could consider that evidence . but i 'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled , 10 and 15 , so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately can not control once this bill has passed . now , i know you 've got the numbers to pass this bill , whether you accept amendments or not , but i just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a bill that changes a person 's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that , and you 're inviting this assembly to fall into the same trap . i therefore urge the assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments . lynne neagle am: thank you , suzy . are there other members who wish to speak ? no . janet , do you want to speak ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , i wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. amendment 14 , however , is consequential to amendment 16 passing . amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the welsh government . as was clear during the committee 's evidence sessions , present welsh government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage . for example , the capacity and reach of the healthy child wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising , with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved , with 53.2 per cent of children in wales reported as being contacted . furthermore , existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas , such as flying start , and even the children 's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children . now , the deputy minister mentioned the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents . however , the deputy minister was challenged on this fact , that this is an online campaign only , and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake . consequently , it should be remembered that this bill will affect all parents . therefore , the deputy minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . deputy minister . julie morgan am: thank you , chair . i 've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during stage 1. as a result , i have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law . my amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the bill by order of the welsh ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after royal assent . that was done to give certainty on the length of time . up to then , we 'd always said 'up to two years'—well , we 're giving two years . this certainty will allow key partners , including the police , social services and the crown prosecution service , to plan for changes to guidance , training and data-collection systems more effectively . it 'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign . my amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision , which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6 , and we discussed those in the previous group . i 've listened to the arguments put forward by suzy davies and janet finch-saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled . these amendments are all about making the commencement of the bill conditional on something else happening , whether it 's waiting for the revision of crown prosecution service guidance , or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system , or for the provision of parenting support services . and , really , i do n't think that we should be going down that road . as i set out in my letter of response to the stage 1 report from the constitutional and legislative affairs committee , we 've got good working relations with the cps through the strategic implementation group , and we work very closely with them . but the cps are an independent body , as suzy davies has said in her contribution , not answerable to welsh ministers or this legislature , and it 's not appropriate for a minister or the national assembly to seek to influence the cps guidelines . we 're discussing the issues with the cps in the implementation group . and , in fact , i think that these amendments—suzy 's amendments in particular—would n't just seek to influence the cps , but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in wales . so , i do n't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided . i think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship , very close working relationship . and i know they did give evidence to your committee , i believe , the cps . and i think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence , or not , assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty , i think , if we did go down that track , because i think this is very important welsh legislation , which does have broad support across the assembly . and i do n't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation . so , i do n't support those amendments . i think the cps is entirely independent of government , and must be entirely independent of government , and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance . in addition , you suggest we allow the uk government to have a say in when welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the assembly . the test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain . if these amendments passed , it would be very difficult , if not impossible , to judge when section 1 could be commenced . this contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for , and raises huge uncertainty , which potentially jeopardises the bill . and i want to assure you again , not only do we have good working relations with the cps , but also very good working relationships with the police , who are , of course , the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues . the work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the bill 's commencement . in fact , it 's the other way round . my amendment to provide a two-year period between royal assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force . and then , when it comes to parenting support , the committee knows that i 've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support , and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue . i have already said i will expand the age range of the 'parenting : give it time ' campaign , and i think— . i know janet finch-saunders has made the point that it is an online facility . it is very widely used . it is a very successful tool . but , of course , the universal services are also there . for example , the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial , and that is a service that is for every child . and , of course , the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly . and the expert group is considering what it 'll recommend for the future , and it needs the time to be able to do that , to support the bill as well as to support parenting more widely . so , as i said , i think these are important points that you have raised , but i do n't think they are appropriate . so , i therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10 , nor 13 , 14 and 15 . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy to reply to the debate . suzy davies am: thank you very much , and thank you very much , deputy minister , as well . i 'm disappointed that you have n't seen what 's behind janet finch-saunders 's final amendment there , actually . maybe it 's something we 'll raise again with you at stage 3 , or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then . but i want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that i 've raised and your assertion that we 're giving , or attempting to give , power to the cps here . we are not . this amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area . and this is why i go back to where my contribution to this started , and it 's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or , sorry , to try and protect children 's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence . this bill—and , actually , you 've said a couple of times in your response today that it 's important that it 's commenced on a certain date . my argument is : it should n't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence . and , while i claim no mischief on the part of the cps or the police—obviously i don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the cps , should they wish to do it , or indeed the police with their own guidelines , putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence . and , because of that , i ask you to consider , or balance , actually , two important things here : one is the rights of the child , obviously at the forefront of your argument on this , which i would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion ; and , actually , the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you can not allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing . the relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family , but that 's something you ought to protect in what you 're trying to do here , and by leaving it open , as you say , to completely different—sorry , undevolved , two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me . i know this is n't going to stop your bill going forward , but i really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at stage 3 , because leaving , effectively , the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control , despite your great relationship with them , should worry us all as a legislature . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , suzy . do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9 ? suzy davies am: oh , because of the voting order— . yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 9 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 9 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 9 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 13 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 13 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 13 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 13 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 14 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 14 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 14 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 14 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 7 in the name of the deputy minister . the question is that amendment 7 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 7 , please show . all those against . so , there voted four in favour , two against . amendment 7 is agreed . suzy , do you wish to move amendment 10 ? suzy davies am: yes , please . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 10 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 10 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 10 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 15 ? janet finch-saunders am: i do . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 15 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] okay , we 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 15 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 15 is not agreed . janet , do you wish to move amendment 16 ? janet finch-saunders am: i move . lynne neagle am: the question is that amendment 16 be agreed . does any member object ? [ objection . ] we have an objection , so i 'll take a vote . all those in favour of amendment 16 , please show . all those against . so , there voted two in favour , four against . amendment 16 is not agreed . deputy minister , do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8 ? julie morgan am: i do . lynne neagle am: i move amendment 8 , then , in the name of the minister . the question is that amendment 8 be agreed . does any member object ? amendment 8 is therefore agreed . well , that has brought us to the end of our amendments , so can i thank the deputy minister and her officials for their attendance ? as usual , you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy . this completes stage 2 proceedings . stage 3 begins tomorrow , and the relevant date of stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course . standing orders make provision for the deputy minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum , taking account of the amendments agreed today . the revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before stage 3 proceedings . thank you very much . julie morgan am: thank you all very much . lynne neagle am: okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the deputy minister for health and social services , following our meeting on 2 october . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services updating the committee on the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' strategy . and paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the deputy minister for health and social services regarding early childhood education and care , following the session that we held on 2 october . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

janet finch-saunders spoke to amendments 2c , excluding 2d , to 2k , which related to the deputy minister 's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defense of reasonable punishment . amendments 2e to 2k outlined what they would expect to be within the report . amendment 2c requested that the welsh government prepared a report on the awareness-raising campaign and laid it before the assembly before section 1 commenced . it was important that they were fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign 's impact , which was elaborated under amendment 2d .