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krishnamurti_discussions

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Is it not possible to set up a commune - where a lot of people get together, pool their money, pool their children and educate them unconditionally? Is that it? Too fragmentary.
You see! You object to that. How can any kind of education not be conditioning?
How can education be not conditioning? Sir, look. Do you know what it means to be conditioned, what are the factors that go into being conditioned?
You don't think any more of yourself if you are free of your conditioning. We are robots. We are robots.
We are so conditioned, we think according to some authority and so on. Please sirs, do listen to this for two minutes before coming to any conclusion. Any intelligent man sees what is happening in the world, and he says to himself, what am I to do, I am a responsible human being, serious, what am I to do?
Am I to join the outward revolutionists, the physical revolutionists - I am not talking about the Communists because they are driven by an idea, by bureaucracy, by a theory and all the rest of it, like the church people, the same thing repeated in a different pattern - what shall I do? Shall I join a revolutionary society, or shall I withdraw from the world, withdraw completely, and bring about a revolution in myself and thereby perhaps affect the outer? Right?
Now what shall I do? There are these two one to join, and the other to withdraw. And perhaps in withdrawing I shall be able to understand more myself and help others to understand themselves and thereby perhaps bring about a physical revolution eventually.
Now what shall I do? Is it so clear cut as that? Begin there, or begin here?
Or is it a total movement with which we are concerned. That and this moving together. You understand?
Both the outer and inner moving together. Right sir. So there is no division as the inner and the outer.
Right? Because we have seen when you emphasize the outer it becomes bureaucratic, it becomes mechanical, it becomes inhuman, it becomes entirely materialistic. If you emphasize the other, which is the inner, then you withdraw completely.
Also we must be very careful because for instance preferring the inward revolution could be also because we are very attached to the past and we like to keep our private property. That's right. The inward revolution may imply that you are sticking on to your property, to your bank account, etc., etc., but talk about inward revolution.
That's a cheap trick. Wait. So let's begin.
Let's start with this. Will you begin there or there. Or you see the effects of both and so you see that life is a unitary process, not a thing to be divided - the commissar and the yogi.
It is a question of bringing the two together. Now can I do this? Can a human being do this?
You and I, can we do this? - not emphasising on that or this but moving, as a river does, taking all life together - all life being the outer and the inner? Now - right?
Is that our problem? Yes. Now, don't say yes.
If that is our problem, that we are trying - not trying - we are actively concerned in bringing about a harmonious action in which the outer and the inner is involved, in which the outer and the inner are completely together, not separate, so I will never talk about the inner and the outer, it is a movement. Right? Now, to do that, to live a harmonious life in which the two are operative together.
Right, sir? Now can I, a human being, conditioned to property, conditioned to patriotism, conditioned to self-centred activity, so what shall I do? You answer me sirs, answer.
Let's talk it over together. What shall I do? I am conditioned, in a culture, in a society which I and my great, great, great, great grandfathers created - what shall I do?
Knowing that I am conditioned by the society, the culture, the religion in which I live, which we all together have created it, therefore society is me and me is society. Right? Right?
Do you dispute that? I am the society - my great grandfather and all the rest of it created this and it has caught me, I am trapped in it, I am trapped in it as it has trapped me. So I am both that and this.
So I can't separate myself from society and say 'I must change society' - I don't know if you see? Sir, say a man who is a communist, he is living in a capitalist society, can he say also, 'I am the society'? He can't.
He can't. In which case it is not true that he is the society. No but sir, how will he change?
Our concern is not that a man who is a communist living in a capitalist society, he cannot identify himself with the capitalist society, but look what has happened. He has identified himself with the communist society - wait sir, right? - and therefore he is acting in fragmentation - no?
I would suggest if it is possible, not using the word 'Communist' because it's putting something in a category liking saying black, or red. Quite right sir. Let's leave all that.
Let's leave the words communism, socialism - put it all out. Here is a simple fact that society is me and me is the society, there is not a division between me and society. After all if you were born in India you would all be thinking in a certain way, you would all be worshipping Krishna or some other bird and here you worship somebody else because you have been conditioned that way, that's all.
So we are the result of the society in which we live, and that society has been brought about by us. Right? No?
Not completely. It was there before we came. You have been through this before.
You have been through - now watch it sir. The society existed before I was born, my great etc., etc., created that society, I was born in it - I don't know why but I was born in it, instead of being born in this culture I was born in that culture - and what happens? I was educated in that culture, I accepted the conditioning of that culture knowingly or not knowingly.
As I grew up I said 'How stupid every culture is, to be shaped by any culture', so you reject the whole thing. Do you? Yes.
No, no. Don't so easily say, yes, madam. It sounds so silly.
Sir to reject your own culture you make your own little culture. No. No.
You see you don't understand me, sir. I see that the human mind is shaped by the environment in which it lives - the Eskimo, the Pacific Islander, the Christian and so on, each one is conditioned by the environment in which he lives, the environment is all the rest of it - Catholic, you know, all that. So a child being born in this culture is conditioned and he says, 'I am not responsible for this, I am conditioned by the culture in which I have lived'.
His responsibility is to free himself from the culture in which he has been brought up. Society has just been created by man, so change man. Obviously.
If I am born in a culture called the Hindu, and I see very definitely as I grow up, educated, or uneducated as it happens with the person who's speaking, sees how he is conditioned by the various cultures and so on. He sees this whole structure of thinking, living, is conditioned and seeing how it is conditioned he puts it aside. So he is free of conditioning.
Right? He has to evolve. No, no.
You see you are bringing something in. He has to evolve. Evolve.
He has to evolve. What does that mean? Take time?
No, no. Then? Free himself from certain beliefs which are not true.
Which means? Oh, be careful what you are saying. Free yourself from certain beliefs which are not true.
We are talking about being free from all beliefs, not which are true and false belief. No. You see you haven't gone into this.
You just make this statement, please listen. Being born, educated for which one is not responsible, but you become responsible the moment you become aware that you are conditioned, and becoming aware that you are conditioned you finish with it. Which means you are never conditioned.
But you are free. But you are free from all conditioning, you are awake. That's quite a different matter.
There is still the past. No sir. Now look.
You are being brought up in a certain culture, and you observe the various other cultures throughout the world, each dividing. Now you become aware of your conditioning - have you? And becoming aware of your conditioning it's your complete responsibility to see that you are free of it, otherwise you can't help society, otherwise you can't bring about a change.
Are you doing that? Are you aware that you are conditioned, by the church, by wealth, by poverty, by the climate, by the food, by the clothes - you follow - you are conditioned. And you are aware and you become utterly responsible, which means that you have got to free yourself from it, otherwise you are not a human being, you are a fragment of this whole structure.
I see my conditioning now, and I make a statement about that, I speak out about it. And then other people... Wait sir.
Look at it sir. First, are you aware, please, watch it, this is really important, related to the question, 'what am I to do given all these facts' - all the facts, not just your fact and my fact, all the facts that are observed - what am I to do? I have been conditioned as a child, I can't help it, by the parent, by the society, by the grandmother - you know, conditioned.
And as I don't know that I am conditioned, I grow up and I realise, watching all this around me, that I am conditioned; and my feeling is that I must change society. I can only change, both outer and the inner only when I become utterly responsible for my conditioning and be free of it. Are you?
Unless you are you cannot possibly help society - full stop. Don't let us talk about helping society. (Inaudible) How can you bring about a revolution?
How can you free them if they don't want to be freed? I am not talking about the people who don't want to be free, who want to change society in a particular way, or change society in a communist way, or socialist or capitalist - I am not talking of such people at all. I am talking of those people who are here in this tent after ten days.
I say to you, look if you really deeply fundamentally are earnest about bringing about a change in society you can only do it if you are aware that you are conditioned and are free of that conditioning, otherwise don't talk about altering society. Right? (Inaudible) No, no, wait.
I explained that sir. It is not your society - we are back. (Inaudible) Do listen sir.
I can't possibly change Mr Who. (Inaudible) No sir, it is not a slow process. Not a process of evolution.
(Inaudible) Look sir, I am not talking quickly, slowly at all. I am talking about something. I see this world as it is, and I am born in that society, and as I grow up I realise I am conditioned, and my responsibility is to completely free the mind from conditioning, then only I can do something about society.
Till that takes place I won't discuss, talk about changing society, it is meaningless. So wait sir. I want to do this - you follow?
I realise I am conditioned and I must change it completely, alter it, free the mind from it, the mind must free itself from it. Now the first question is - please follow it if you will - will it take time? That is slow, evolutionary process.
The idea of time is part of my conditioning. No sir. That's what I am pointing out to you.
Part of your conditioning is, say it will take time. How can we determine that it is going to be taking time or not if we don't know what it is going to be? I am going to show it to you sir.
I ask myself, will it take time, I am conditioned, the mind must be free, the mind says it is conditioned, it must free itself - will it take time? Or, saying that it will take long, it will gradually be done, is part of my conditioning. Right?
So I have to find out the truth of this matter, whether it is a matter of slow, gradual process or instant process. How can we know? I am going to find out, I am going to learn.
I am going to learn, sir, I don't know. Right? Is it possible to know if it is...
I am going to find out. You see you don't even look sir. I want to find out whether this conditioning of the mind, the mind having been conditioned, to free itself from that conditioning, will it take time, I want to learn, I want to find the truth of it.
Right? Now, what does that mean? Am I approaching this problem of freedom with a mind that is conditioned to time?
Are you answering my question? Is your mind conditioned by time, that is, gradually I will do it? If it is conditioned to time, then become aware of it, aware of that conditioning and put it aside for the moment and find out.
That is, listen sir, the mind is conditioned to time, that is, it is conditioned now, eventually, there, it will be unconditioned. The time, the interval between now and then is time. Right?
No? Oh Lord, don't go to sleep, please sir. This is not complicated.
To reach from this seat to go to the other end it takes time. Right? Many steps and so on.
Now I am conditioned, the mind is conditioned, and to be free of that conditioning, will it take time? Time being freedom is over there and conditioned mind is here. Right?
And it must do certain things in order to arrive then. Right? Now what happens?
It is conditioned and it will be unconditioned then. What happens between the interval, between now and then? What takes place?
Further conditioning. Right. Further conditioning, further factors entering in, which distorts it, it'll pull you in that direction and then you have to pull back and go on.
And so on. There is a constant movement, which is pushing you in different directions. This is so obvious.
So that is involved. If you admit time that is involved. Right sirs?
Are you following all this? And if you admit time, which means division between now and then, who has created this division? I must find this out.
Who has created this division? It's what you call the inward and outward. No.
No madam. You're off! The spirit against the matter.
There is not such thing as spirit and matter, both are one. For me there is. Oh well that finishes it.
It is the entity which wants the unconditioned state. Of course sir. Psychosomatic, that is the interrelationship between the mind and the body is so well-known, well-established, it is no good saying matter and spirit - we won't go into that.
So the moment mind admits time, time becomes a danger - no? In that there is laziness, postponement, in that there is a division between here and there, and all that implies an entity which wants to reject this and get that. No?
Right sir? So as long as this division in thought exists time must exist. But aren't we getting away from our original question?
Oh no, no, no. I haven't moved away from it at all. I am saying, I realise I am conditioned and my responsibility first is to uncondition, because if I cannot uncondition, but act according to my conditioning, I make society more horrible than it is - which the politicians all over the world are doing.
So I say my responsibility as a human being is to free the mind from conditioning. Now will it take time? I have not moved away from it.
Will it take time? Or is it possible to change it instantly? Can you demonstrate what you do not understand?
I don't know what you mean. It needs time. Sorry.
Is this the first time you are listening to this madam? Is this the first time you are here? Yes.
I am so sorry. You see we are both of us using different language. so - we have spent ten days or more, or perhaps five years learning about each other, so please if you don't mind, most respectfully and politely, listen first and get into it and you may understand it.
Sir until this morning I thought it must take time but now at the moment I think it can be done instantly and as a result of that I think your relationships change immediately with all those around you instantly, and then the world changes from a nucleus. That's right. We must find out the truth of this matter - you follow?
Whether time is necessary, or time is a danger. Or time is an impediment. We are conditioned by the society which says time is necessary.
Right? Gradually old boy, not quickly! Right?
And I say that may be wrong altogether, it may be my conditioning, therefore I must investigate, learn about it. And I see the moment time is allowed the enormous danger that exists in the interval between now and then, so seeing that I reject time - not reject, it has no meaning. So freedom may be there only I don't know how to look at it.
I am going to find out how to look, I am going to learn. And I can only learn if I am not concerned with time - I don't know if you see this? If I don't say from here to there, which means this must be changed to that and therefore division, therefore time, therefore conflict.
I have been through all that. You see, you know, sir, that's why unless you really understand the interrelationship of all this you will be lost. Social revolutions or any change obviously will take time.
Sir, do you mean to say the generals, the admirals, the politicians all over the world, are going to change by listening to you and me? Certainly not. What we are talking about is, if you are serious, if there is the real deep understanding that society must change, not according to any pattern, break away from the Judaism, the Christianity, calling yourself a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, wiping away all that and therefore we are concerned with the unity of man.
The unity of man is not through organisations - that may help later to organise - but in understanding how this conditioning divides people. There we are. Can you change, you, brought up in a particular culture, change your conditioning?
Unless you change, please don't talk about changing society. It's a blasphemy. They all talk about changing the society according to their pattern and therefore divide, divide, divide, divide.
That is what's happening - according to Marx, according to Jesus, according to somebody else. What we are concerned is to see that man, you and I who have been brought up in a conditioning, to be free of it, is this to be done instantly, or will you take time? For me, for this person speaking on this platform, change implies - look at the subtlety of it - change implies - a change comes about only when there is no motive.
The moment you have a motive you are conditioned. If you can understand that! The moment you have a motive - make somebody happy, change society, bring about enlightenment, or seek enlightenment - the moment you have a motive, that very motive is the conditioning factor.
Is it a motive to be responsible? Is there a motive in responsibility? Are you saying that?