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Look, why are you being educated? I really don't know. Therefore you have to find out what education means, mustn't you?
What is education? Giving you information, knowledge about various subjects and so on, a good academic training? That has to be, hasn't it?
Millions of people are being turned out by the universities and colleges. They give you the tools to live with. But what are the hands that are going to use them?
They are the same hands that have produced this world, the wars and all the rest of it. Which means the tools are there but if there is no inner, psychological revolution you will use those tools in the same old way and keep the rottenness going. That's what my question is about.
If this revolution does not take place here, then why doesn't it? And if it does, is it actually affecting the mind, or is it still an idea and not an actuality, like having to eat three meals a day. That is an actuality, somebody has to cook, that's not an idea.
So I am asking you, is this kind of education we are talking about taking place here? And if it is, let us find out how to vitalise it, give life to it. If it is not, let's find out why.
It doesn't seem to be happening in the whole school. Why not? It may be happening with a few individuals here and there - why isn't it happening with all of us?
I feel it's like a seed which wants to germinate but the top soil is too heavy. Have you seen grass growing through cement? () Well, this is a weak seed, you see.
(Laughter.) () But do we realize that we are mediocre and do we want to get out of it? - that's the point.
I am asking Are you mediocre? I am not using that word in any derogatory sense - I am using the word "mediocre" as it is described in the dictionary. You are bound to be middle class if you merely pursue your own little activities instead of seeing the whole - the whole world and your particular little place in the whole, not the other way round.
People don't see the whole, they are pursuing their little desires, their little pleasures, their little vanities and brutalities, but if they saw the whole and understood their place in it, their relationship to the whole would be totally different. You, living at Brockwood as a student in a small community, in relationship with your teachers and your fellow students, do you see the whole of what is going on in the world? That is the first thing.
To see it objectively, not emotionally, not with prejudice, not with a bias, but just look at it. The various governments will not solve this problem, no politician is interested in this. They want more or less to maintain the status quo, with a little alteration here and there.
They don't want the unity of man, they want the unity of England. But even there the different political parties don't say, "Let's all join together and find out what is best for man." But you are not saying it's not possible?
They are not doing it. Are we? We are observing, we are first looking at the world.
And when you see the whole thing, what is your desire in relation to the whole? If you don't see the whole and merely pursue your particular instinct or tendency or desire, that is the essence of mediocrity, that's what is happening in the world. You see, in the old days the really serious people said, "We will have nothing to do with the world, we will become monks, we will become preachers, we will live without property, with out marriage, without position in society.
We are teachers, we will go round the villages and the country, people will feed us, we will teach them morality, we will teach them how to be good, not to hate each other." That used to happen but we can't do that any more. In India one still can.
You can go from the north to the south and from east to west, begging. Put on a certain robe and they will feed you and clothe you because that is part of the tradition of India. But even that is beginning to fade, for there are so many charlatans.
So we have to earn a livelihood, we have to live in this world a life that is intelligent, sane, not mechanical - that is the point. And education is to help us to be sane, non-mechanical and intelligent. I keep repeating this.
Now how do we, you and I, discuss this thing and find out first what we actually are and see if that can be totally changed? So first look at yourself, don't avoid it, don't say, "How terrible, how ugly." Just observe whether you have got all the tendencies of the insanity which has produced this ugly world.
And if you observe your own particular quirks, find out how to change. Let's talk about it, that is relationship, that is friendship, that is affection, that is love. Talk about it and say, "Look, I am greedy, I feel terribly silly".
Can that be changed radically? That is part of our education. It's when I feel insecure that I become silly.
Of course. But are you sure? Don't theorize about it.
Are you seeking security? - in somebody, in a profession, in some quality, or in an idea? One needs security.
You see how you defend it? First find out if you are seeking security; don't say one needs it. Then we will see whether it is needed or not, but first see if you are seeking security.
Of course you are! Have you understood the meaning and the implications of that word 'depending'? - depending on money, depending on people, on ideas, all coming from outside.
To depend on some belief, or on the image you have about yourself, that you are a great man, that you have this or that, you know all this nonsense that goes on. So you have to understand what the implications of that word are and whether you are caught in those things. If you see you depend on somebody for your security than you begin to question, then you begin to learn.
You begin to learn what is implied in dependency, in attachment, In security, fear and pleasure are involved. When there is no security you feel lost, you feel lonely; and when you feel lonely you escape, through drink, women or whatever you do. You act neurotically because you haven't really solved this problem.
So find out, learn what the meaning, the significance and the implications of that word are in actuality, not in theory. that is part of our education. I depend on certain people.
I depend on them for my security, for my safety, for my money, for my pleasure, etc. Therefore if they do something which upsets me I get frightened, irritated, angry, jealous, frustrated, and then I rush off and put my claws into somebody else. The same problem goes on all the time.
So I say to myself, let me first understand what this means. I must have money, I must have food, clothes and shelter, those are normal things. But when money is involved the whole cycle begins.
So I have to learn and know about the whole thing; not after I have committed myself, then it is too late. I commit myself by getting married to somebody and then I am caught, then I am dependent, then the battle begins, wanting to be free yet being caught by responsibility, by the mortgage. Here is a Tungki says, "I must have security."
I before you say "I must", find out what it means, learn about it. I must have food and clothes and a house. Yes, go on.
To have that I need to earn enough money. So you do whatever you can. Then what happens?
To earn this money I depend on someone... You depend on society, on your patron, on your employer. He chases you around, he is brutal, and you put up with it because you depend on him. That is what is happening right round the world.
Please look at it first, as you look at a map. You I have to earn a livelihood. I know in earning a livelihood I am dependent on society as it exists.
It demands so many hours a day for five or six days a week and if I don't earn a livelihood I have nothing. That's one thing. And I also depend inwardly on my wife or a priest or a counsellor - you understand?
So knowing all that I won't marry. I see the dependency, all the trouble that will come. You are not learning.
Don't say you won't marry, see what the problem is first. I need food, clothes and shelter, those are primary needs and for those I depend on society as it is, whether it is communist or capitalist. I know that and I am going to look in other directions; I need security emotionally, that means dependence on somebody, on my wife, friends, neighbours, it doesn't matter who it is.
And when I depend on somebody, fear always exists. I am learning, I am not saying what to do yet. I depend on you, you are my brother, my wife, my husband, and the moment you go away I am lost, I am frightened - I do neurotic things.
I see dependence on people leads to that. Also I do I depend on ideas? On a belief that there is a God - or not - that we must have universal brotherhood, whatever it is; that is another dependence.
And you come along and say, "What rubbish this is, you are living in a world of illusion." So I get shaken and I say, "What am I to do?" Then instead of learning about it I join some other cult.
Do you see all this? Do you discover that in yourself you are insufficient and therefore you are dependent? Then you seek sufficiency in "I am all right, I have found God, what I believe is true, my experience is the real thing."
So you what is there that is so completely secure that it is never disturbed? I don't see the dependency on the two things you were talking about... We re asking what the implications of wanting security mean. We're looking at the map of security.
It shows that I depend on food, clothes and shelter by working in a society that is corrupt - and I see what depending on people does. I am not saying this should be or that should not be. The map look, this road leads to fear, pleasure, anger, fulfilment, frustration and neurosis.
And it also look at the world of ideas, depending on ideas is the most flimsy form of security, they are only words which have become a reality as an image; you live on an image. And that map be self-sufficient. So I depend on myself, I must have confidence in myself.
What is yourself? You are the result of all this. So the map has shown you all these things and you ask now, "Where is there complete security - including a job and all the rest of it?"
Where will you find it? You find it when you have no fears. You haven't understood what I am saying.
Put a map of this in front of you. Look at it physical security, emotional security, intellectual security, and security in your own thoughts, in your own feelings, in your self-confidence. You say, how flimsy all this is.
Looking at it all and seeing the flimsiness, the invalidity, the lack of reality behind it, where is security then? It is learning about this which brings intelligence. So in intelligence there is security.
Have you understood it? Can one live without security? You haven't learned to look first.
You have learned to look through your particular image; that image has given you the feeling of security. So first learn to look at the map, put aside the image of what you think is security - that you must have it - and just look. What are the implications of wanting security?
When you find there is no security in anything that you have sought, that there is no security in death, no security in living, when you see all that, then the very seeing of the fact that there is no security in the things in which one had sought it, is intelligence. That intelligence gives you complete security. So learning is the beginning of security.
The act of learning is intelligence, and in learning there is tremendous security. Are you learning here? In the family they say one must manage to earn a living, have a certain amount of knowledge.
There is this idea about security, this basic necessity. Yes, Tungki, that's quite right. Your family, the tradition says you must have physical security, you must have a job, you must have knowledge, a technique, you must specialise, you must be this, you must be that, in order to have that security.
It's an idea. I need money, that's not an idea - everything else is an idea. The physical continuity in security is the real thing; everything else has no reality.
And to see that is intelligence. In that intelligence there is the most complete security; I can live anywhere, in the communist world or in a capitalist world. Do you remember we said the other day that meditation is to observe?
That is the beginning of meditation. You cannot observe this map if you have the slightest distortion in your mind, if your mind is distorted by prejudice, by fear. To look at this map is to look without prejudice.
So learn in meditation what it is to be free of prejudice; that is part of meditation, not just sitting cross-legged in some place. It makes you tremendously responsible, not only for yourself and your relationship but for everything else, the garden, the trees, the people around you - everything becomes tremendously important. To be serious is also to have fun.
You can't be serious without having fun. We talked the other day about yoga, didn't we? I showed you some breathing exercises.
You must do it all with fun, enjoy things - you follow? There are certain things like learning. I don't think it's possible to discuss them with a sense of fun.
Oh yes! It is. Look, Tungki, learning is fun.
To see new things is great fun; it gives you tremendous energy if you make a great discovery for yourself - not if someone else discovers it and tells you about it, then it's secondhand. When you are learning it is fun to see something totally new, like discovering a new insect, a new species. To discover how my mind is working, to see all the nuances, the to learn about it is fun.
First Participant (P) [The chief participant in these discussions with Buddhists (P) is Pandit Jagannath Upadhyaya.] So far as I have understood, you say that life has no purpose or aim and therefore there is no path to tread. Therefore each person is faced with every moment by itself.
If the moment is to be understood, then the same moment is the moment of action, knowledge and desire. Is this understanding correct? KRISHNAMURTI (K) If I may point out, we are not discussing what is correct or not correct.
Sir, this is a subject that requires a great deal of inquiry. If you say that this is not a question of correctness or otherwise, you are creating a problem for the people who want to understand. No.
On the contrary, I am saying that Panditji and all of us, including myself, are going to investigate. I don't say, 'That is right, this is wrong', but together we are going to go into it. How can there be a human being who does not decide what is correct or incorrect, what is good or not good?
We will come to that. I don't say there is no goodness. Goodness may be entirely different from your goodness and my goodness.
So let us find out which is really the good - not yours or mine, but that which is good... ...in itself. Yes. You are introducing an uncertainty into one's way of looking at things or one's philosophical outlook.
Yes, but if you start with certainty, you end up with uncertainty. This also sounds very paradoxical - that you start with certainty and end up with uncertainty. Of course.
This is daily life. So, sir, because you raised a question which implies time, thought, action, could we begin by first going into the question of what is time? Not according to the Buddha, or to some scripture, but what is time?
He will interpret it one way, the scientists will say that it is a series of small actions, thoughts and so on. Or you might say, well, time is death, time is living, or thought is time. Right?
So, could we, for the time being, put aside what other people have said, including the Buddha, including what I have said or haven't said - wipe all that out - and say, 'Now, what is time?' Is this the only problem we have in life - time - not only a series of events, but being born, growing, dying, time as the past, future and present? We live in time.
The moment we hope, it is time - I hope to be, I hope to become, I hope to become enlightened; all that implies time. Acquiring knowledge implies time, and the whole of living from birth to death is a problem of time. Right, sir?
Am I making myself clear? So what is it that we call time? You have spoken about this many times, but I want to say that the moment which is knowledge, action, as well as desire, is a moment in which there is no time.
Wait, wait. Can you divide this instant from the rest? In the instant of attention or observation, there is no time.
What do you mean, observation and attention? Sorry to be so analytical. But if we are to understand each other we must be clear about the meaning of these two words - attention and observation.
What takes place actually when you observe? - not theoretically. When you observe that tree, that bird, that woman, that man, what takes place?
In that moment of observation, if it is real observation... Is it? I am asking. When he uses the word observation, what does he mean by that?
I may mean one thing, he may mean another, she may mean yet another thing. But you are asking Panditji what he means by observation. And what he means by attention... Sir, may I ask a question?
Could we start to discuss, to have a dialogue, a conversation on a word, which is really very, very good deliberation? You know the meaning of that word deliberate? The word comes from libra which in Greek means balance, weigh.
You have the same thing in the Zodiac - Libra. And from libra comes the word liberate. And also it comes from the word 'deliberare' which in Italian means 'to sit down, talk over, take counsel with each other, weigh together.
It is not you offering an opinion and I offering another opinion, but both of us taking counsel together, both of us weighing because we want to find the truth of it. Not I will find it and then tell you - that does not exist in that word deliberate. Sir, when the Pope is elected in Rome, in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican, they deliberate - the doors are locked, nobody can get out, they have their own places for toilet, restaurant, food; everything is arranged for a fortnight or for some days.
Within those set days they must settle. That is called deliberation. So could we start, both of us, as though we know nothing?
It is difficult for Panditji. It is not difficult. I know nothing; our knowledge is merely memory.
What's the point of it? I am saying knowledge may be the greatest danger in the world; it may be the greatest hindrance. To further knowledge we are adding, the scientists are adding.
That which is added to is always limited. Of course. If it is complete, you cannot add to it.
Yes. Therefore your knowledge is always limited, and if you discuss from that limitation, you end up in limitation. And the so-called certainty is that limitation.
Yes, limitation. We have heard quite a bit from you and understood certain things; but if the understanding has to be at a deeper level, then someone like you has the responsibility of making that known, since we are at different levels. All right, all right.
But the man says, K says, leave your moorings, let us float together. How can we counsel together when we are at two different levels? I don't admit that.
I don't admit that we are at two levels. We have a complaint against you that... ...that I am a poor surgeon! ...physician, yes.
Because there are all the difficulties and conflicts outside. People like me who have the privilege of coming to you receive some light, but the physician is not able to say how to cope with those things which are outside and solve the difficulties there. So you want to solve first the difficulties out there, and then approach the problems in here.
Is that it? No, I want to solve them both together. I do not admit the division.
Yes, I accept that. The world is me, I am the world. Now, from there how do we solve the problem?
Let us say I don't make a difference between outer and inner things. First make sure of that. Do you actually see that, or is it theoretical?
For me it is theoretical. Sir, first of all, theory to me has no value. Forgive me, sir.
I see what is happening in the world - war, nationalities, killing, all the appalling things that are happening - actually happening. I am not imagining it; I see it happening under my nose. Now, who created it?
Human beings. Do you admit that we all of us have created that? Yes, of course.
All right. So, if all of us have created it, then we can change that. Now, in what manner will you bring about the change?
Sir, I met the other day in New York, a scientist, a doctor who has become a philosopher. He said this is all talk, the real question can the cells in the brain bring about a mutation in themselves - not through drugs, not through various genetic processes, but can the brain cells themselves This is wrong - change! Do you understand, sir?
Can the brain cells themselves, uninfluenced, undrugged, see what they have created and This is wrong - mutate! But you distinguish the brain from the mind. Yes, may be silly, but I have made a difference because the brain is the very centre of our sensations.