eliwill/krishnamurti_discussions · Datasets at Hugging Face

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You want to find out what is the cause of disorder. Right? I don't.
No? I don't. I observe the nature of disorder.
I don't look for the cause, I don't know the cause, I can never know the cause. You observe disorder. Right?
I observe disorder. You observe disorder in oneself. One observes disorder in oneself.
Right? Yes. And I see that it is manifest as thought.
I don't know. I would like to go into that a little bit. I observe in myself disorder.
I'd like to... let's go into this very carefully because it's rather interesting. I observe myself in disorder. Why do I call what I observe as disorder?
Disturbance is disorder. I just want to go step - please I'm not trying to stop you, Sonaliji, I just want to find out. Why do I call it disorder?
Which means I already have an inclination what order is. Of course. So, I am comparing what I have experienced, or known as order and thereby call 'what is' disorder.
I don't do that. No, sir... Please, half a minute, Pupul.
I say no, don't do that, don't compare. Just see what disorder is. Can I know - please, wait - can I know, can the mind know disorder without comparing itself with order?
In my personal opinion... Wait, sir, I haven't finished. Give me two seconds.
Sorry, sorry. So, can my mind not compare? Comparison may be disorder.
Comparison itself may be the cause of disorder. Measurement may be disorder. And as long as I am comparing, there must be disorder.
I am a bureaucrat and I am comparing myself to a higher bureaucrat, therefore that is disorder. I am comparing my disorder at the present moment with a whiff of order which I smelt, and comparing and therefore calling it disorder. So I see - I am just looking at it, be a little patient - so I see comparison is really important, not disorder.
As long as my mind is comparing, measuring, there must be disorder. Right? But sir, without comparing I look at myself and I see there is disorder because every part of me is pulling in a different direction.
I've never felt I'm in disorder. But we're not talking about K. Wait, I know. (Laughter) I've never felt I'm in disorder.
Except rarely, occasionally, when something... Why? - I say to myself, why are all these people talking about disorder? Do they really know disorder?
Or you only know it through comparison? I know that I put it crudely but it is exactly the fact with me. When I don't get what I want, I call it disorder.
Darling, yes, sir. I don't call that disorder. That is - no, please, sir, don't - I mean I want a Rolls Royce, I want to go to the moon, I can't get it but I don't call that disorder.
I call it very, very disorderly. They are both conscious comparison. You bring in words which - forgive me - I find very difficult.
There is no conscious comparison of the mind which says this is disorder and I want order. No, I'm only asking how do you know disorder? Is it only a sense of uneasiness.
I see a sense of confusion. One thought against another thought. That is confusion.
It is confusion. You will say the word 'confusion' again is comparing. No, contradiction.
I don't think about anything else but I know confusion. We only know contradiction which is confusion. Stick to that.
You say, my mind is in a state of confusion - because it is contradicting itself all the time. Yes. All right.
Proceed from there. There is a real difficulty here. You see, when you say - you talked about silence, then harmony, then disorder.
You are moving completely, moving away - this way. We are moving - you know? Otherwise why aren't we with disorder?
We leave a part in order. No, I'm sorry, I'm not leaving a part in either harmony or silence. I say I observe my mind and I see disorder.
Not only the mind but the disorder in the whole mechanism. Yes, I overeat and then there is disorder. I see disorder in harmony - we are not talking of harmony but I see... You see disorder; what will you do?
Then what? From there move. Then I'm bound to ask.
It is the nature of the mind to ask. Ask. I ask.
There must be a way of finding a way out of this. Yes. Then what?
And then I observe myself asking that question. Yes. And then that, for the time being, comes to an end.
That 'me' comes to an end. (Inaudible) The nature of the question needs answering. Look, sir, I am not talking - these steps we can discover, we needn't come to it by these steps.
No, don't do it. But I thought it would be better to go step by step. Now I say there's an ending there.
There may not be an ending. There is an ending there. I say there is an ending.
To someone else there may not be an ending, but there is an ending. I say, what is the nature of this? Is this silence?
Then I come back to my first question. Or is there an undercurrent still operating? You see, the (inaudible) of different qualities and natures and dimensions of silence.
It means just this. The traditional outlook is the gap between two thoughts is silence. That's not silence, silence between two noises is not silence.
That's what I've been coming to... Listen to that noise outside and there's a gap and you call that silence? I say that's nonsense.
That's an absence of noise. Absence of noise is not silence. We are coming now to some understanding of this.
The ending of the perception of oneself in a state of disturbance. Pupul, you are not being clear. Sorry.
The perceiving disturbance may end disturbance. I'm questioning, when you say disorder, what I am questioning is I'm not at all sure that you know what disorder is. You call it tummy ache - wait, I over ate.
Wait, please - that is disorder - right? - I overindulge in emotional nonsense - that is disorder. I catch myself talking very loud.
Disorder. That is disorder. Now, so what?
Disorder - what is disorder? No, no - how do you know it is disorder? Wait, Pupul, just listen.
I overeat, I have a tummy ache - I don't call it disorder. I say, 'By Jove, I over ate, I mustn't eat so much'. Full stop.
As long as there is a dictionary meaning... I know a state of normal health, therefore when we... No, no. I don't go through all these processes.
I overeat, I have pain, and I say to myself, 'By Jove, I must be careful next meal'. We moved, Krishnaji, please, we have moved from silence, to harmony and we found that it was impossible to go into the nature of harmony without going into disorder. That's all.
That's all. Keep to those three points. So we are going... Keep to those three points.
Why do you call it disorder? It's not necessarily a recognition of disorder, because when there is a conflict between the body, the mind... Therefore conflict you associate with disorder.
No. The conflict makes one weary, as you say, and you instinctively feel there's something wrong with it. So, what you're saying is - if I understand rightly, please correct me - conflict indicates disorder.
Right? Yes, conflict indicates disorder. Even the emergence of...
Even when you don't name it there is conflict. Conflict indicates disorder. Whether two thoughts, whether body - conflict.
What have we been saying? What are we saying? Conflict is disorder.
Indicates disorder. Now conflict is disorder - not 'indicates'. You translate it as disorder.
So you asked the question, is there disorder... I don't understand the difference between what you have you translate it as disorder, and it is disorder. And you said is there disorder at all.
No listen, Krishnaji says it is disorder now, and then he says, translates it as disorder. What is the difference? All right.
I'm only saying conflict indicates disorder. So, then what? From there, move.
Move. You keep on going around in circles. Move.
I said, there must be a way of being free of this. Of what? Of conflict.
That's... Disorder. Of disorder...
Yes, which is the same thing. So... One word or the other. No, wait a minute.
Silence, harmony, conflict. That's all. Not disorder.
Conflict. You can take - forgive me for saying so, Krishnaji - you can take the word 'disorder' and go through the same gymnastics with conflict, and come to the same (inaudible) how do I... what do I do about conflict? That's what I...
Wait. That's all we are concerned - please. Silence, harmony, conflict.
Right? Now, how am I to deal with conflict non-artificially? Right?
(Inaudible) You know nothing, you are listening for the first time, therefore you have to go into it with me. Don't say, 'How do I know it for the first time?' - you don't know.
Somebody comes along and says, 'Look, look at this marvellous machinery', - you look. I see this much, that I can't think of silence or harmony when I am in conflict. That much is clear, sir.
So, is mind capable of freeing itself from conflict? That is the only thing you can ask. Right?
Can you ask that? I am asking. Is the mind capable of freeing itself from every kind of conflict?
What is wrong with that question? It is the mind again which is asking. (Inaudible) It is exactly the same, the question can the mind be free of discovering.
I don't see the difference between... But I'm not going... I am only saying - please, Pupulji - we have reduced it to conflict.
Right? Now I say, look, stick to that one thing, don't let's go round and round and round. Stick to that one thing, conflict, and see if the mind can be free of it.
And don't go around saying how - can the mind, knowing what conflict is and what conflict does, end conflict? Surely that's a legitimate question - no? No?
Why are you silent? Because you assume that the mind can do it. I don't... Sir, can we, if we look into this question of conflict...
Conflict is... No, sir, I meant rather, look into the aspect of it which is comparison, because there is no conflict without comparison. Conflict is contradiction, comparison, imitation, conformity, suppression, all that; put all that into that one word and accept the meaning of that word, as we defined it, and say, 'Can the mind be free of conflict?' Go on.
Of course it can be free, sir, it can be free of conflict, but the question which arises is what is the nature of that freedom from conflict? How do you know before you are free? That becomes theoretical.
No, sir, one has known... (inaudible) ...free from conflict for the time-being, by going through the conflict there is an ending of that state of conflict, for a while at least. Is there an ending completely of conflict? That's the question which I ask.
What is the nature of this ending and what do we mean by total... We are going to find out. I said some meetings ago there is no ending of conflict. He says that...
The universe as we live in it... Wait, sir, universe - don't include universe. In the universe there is apparently everything is moving in order.
Who says that? Hoyle. (Laughs) Astronomers.
Expanding universe. I'm talking of the mental universe... Wait.
Therefore don't use the word 'universe'. Let's stick to our minds which seem to be endlessly in conflict. That's right.
That's all. Don't bring in universe. The universe in which I'm in.
Don't justify it, for god's sake. We are trying to get on with the stuff. Now, how is the mind to end conflict, naturally, because every other method, system, is a compulsive method, a directional method, a method of control, and therefore all that's out.
Now, can the mind - yes - free itself from conflict. I say yes. Where are you at the end of it?
I think mind can be completely, utterly be without conflict. Forever. Don't use that word 'forever' because then you are introducing a word of time, and time is a factor of conflict.
I want to ask a very quick question. Can the mind be totally conflict? I am telling you... No, sir, can the mind be totally conflict?
Can the mind be in a state of total conflict? Just be conflict? Obviously.
What are you trying to say? I don't quite understand. You see, I feel myself totally helpless in this situation.
The fact is there is conflict. Yes. And the fact is that any operation of the self on that... We have been through all that, don't bring in.
Seeing the nature of that, can the mind say, if it is conflict it is conflict? I see what you are trying to say. Can the mind be aware of a state in which there is no conflict?
Is that what you are trying to say? No. The other way.
Or... Be totally the fact. Golly, you people are so quick. Or, the mind can only know conflict.
(Inaudible) Right? Right. Right.
Do you know, is your mind totally aware of conflict? Or is just words? You see...
Wait. Stick to one thing. Simple.
Simple. (Inaudible) I'm being simple. Is my mind totally aware that it is in conflict?

You want to find out what is the cause of disorder. Right? I don't.

No? I don't. I observe the nature of disorder.

I don't look for the cause, I don't know the cause, I can never know the cause. You observe disorder. Right?

I observe disorder. You observe disorder in oneself. One observes disorder in oneself.

Right? Yes. And I see that it is manifest as thought.

I don't know. I would like to go into that a little bit. I observe in myself disorder.

I'd like to... let's go into this very carefully because it's rather interesting. I observe myself in disorder. Why do I call what I observe as disorder?

Disturbance is disorder. I just want to go step - please I'm not trying to stop you, Sonaliji, I just want to find out. Why do I call it disorder?

Which means I already have an inclination what order is. Of course. So, I am comparing what I have experienced, or known as order and thereby call 'what is' disorder.

I don't do that. No, sir... Please, half a minute, Pupul.

I say no, don't do that, don't compare. Just see what disorder is. Can I know - please, wait - can I know, can the mind know disorder without comparing itself with order?

In my personal opinion... Wait, sir, I haven't finished. Give me two seconds.

Sorry, sorry. So, can my mind not compare? Comparison may be disorder.

Comparison itself may be the cause of disorder. Measurement may be disorder. And as long as I am comparing, there must be disorder.

I am a bureaucrat and I am comparing myself to a higher bureaucrat, therefore that is disorder. I am comparing my disorder at the present moment with a whiff of order which I smelt, and comparing and therefore calling it disorder. So I see - I am just looking at it, be a little patient - so I see comparison is really important, not disorder.

As long as my mind is comparing, measuring, there must be disorder. Right? But sir, without comparing I look at myself and I see there is disorder because every part of me is pulling in a different direction.

I've never felt I'm in disorder. But we're not talking about K. Wait, I know. (Laughter) I've never felt I'm in disorder.

Except rarely, occasionally, when something... Why? - I say to myself, why are all these people talking about disorder? Do they really know disorder?

Or you only know it through comparison? I know that I put it crudely but it is exactly the fact with me. When I don't get what I want, I call it disorder.

Darling, yes, sir. I don't call that disorder. That is - no, please, sir, don't - I mean I want a Rolls Royce, I want to go to the moon, I can't get it but I don't call that disorder.

I call it very, very disorderly. They are both conscious comparison. You bring in words which - forgive me - I find very difficult.

There is no conscious comparison of the mind which says this is disorder and I want order. No, I'm only asking how do you know disorder? Is it only a sense of uneasiness.

I see a sense of confusion. One thought against another thought. That is confusion.

It is confusion. You will say the word 'confusion' again is comparing. No, contradiction.

I don't think about anything else but I know confusion. We only know contradiction which is confusion. Stick to that.

You say, my mind is in a state of confusion - because it is contradicting itself all the time. Yes. All right.

Proceed from there. There is a real difficulty here. You see, when you say - you talked about silence, then harmony, then disorder.

You are moving completely, moving away - this way. We are moving - you know? Otherwise why aren't we with disorder?

We leave a part in order. No, I'm sorry, I'm not leaving a part in either harmony or silence. I say I observe my mind and I see disorder.

Not only the mind but the disorder in the whole mechanism. Yes, I overeat and then there is disorder. I see disorder in harmony - we are not talking of harmony but I see... You see disorder; what will you do?

Then what? From there move. Then I'm bound to ask.

It is the nature of the mind to ask. Ask. I ask.

There must be a way of finding a way out of this. Yes. Then what?

And then I observe myself asking that question. Yes. And then that, for the time being, comes to an end.

That 'me' comes to an end. (Inaudible) The nature of the question needs answering. Look, sir, I am not talking - these steps we can discover, we needn't come to it by these steps.

No, don't do it. But I thought it would be better to go step by step. Now I say there's an ending there.

There may not be an ending. There is an ending there. I say there is an ending.

To someone else there may not be an ending, but there is an ending. I say, what is the nature of this? Is this silence?

Then I come back to my first question. Or is there an undercurrent still operating? You see, the (inaudible) of different qualities and natures and dimensions of silence.

It means just this. The traditional outlook is the gap between two thoughts is silence. That's not silence, silence between two noises is not silence.

That's what I've been coming to... Listen to that noise outside and there's a gap and you call that silence? I say that's nonsense.

That's an absence of noise. Absence of noise is not silence. We are coming now to some understanding of this.

The ending of the perception of oneself in a state of disturbance. Pupul, you are not being clear. Sorry.

The perceiving disturbance may end disturbance. I'm questioning, when you say disorder, what I am questioning is I'm not at all sure that you know what disorder is. You call it tummy ache - wait, I over ate.

Wait, please - that is disorder - right? - I overindulge in emotional nonsense - that is disorder. I catch myself talking very loud.

Disorder. That is disorder. Now, so what?

Disorder - what is disorder? No, no - how do you know it is disorder? Wait, Pupul, just listen.

I overeat, I have a tummy ache - I don't call it disorder. I say, 'By Jove, I over ate, I mustn't eat so much'. Full stop.

As long as there is a dictionary meaning... I know a state of normal health, therefore when we... No, no. I don't go through all these processes.

I overeat, I have pain, and I say to myself, 'By Jove, I must be careful next meal'. We moved, Krishnaji, please, we have moved from silence, to harmony and we found that it was impossible to go into the nature of harmony without going into disorder. That's all.

That's all. Keep to those three points. So we are going... Keep to those three points.

Why do you call it disorder? It's not necessarily a recognition of disorder, because when there is a conflict between the body, the mind... Therefore conflict you associate with disorder.

No. The conflict makes one weary, as you say, and you instinctively feel there's something wrong with it. So, what you're saying is - if I understand rightly, please correct me - conflict indicates disorder.

Right? Yes, conflict indicates disorder. Even the emergence of...

Even when you don't name it there is conflict. Conflict indicates disorder. Whether two thoughts, whether body - conflict.

What have we been saying? What are we saying? Conflict is disorder.

Indicates disorder. Now conflict is disorder - not 'indicates'. You translate it as disorder.

So you asked the question, is there disorder... I don't understand the difference between what you have you translate it as disorder, and it is disorder. And you said is there disorder at all.

No listen, Krishnaji says it is disorder now, and then he says, translates it as disorder. What is the difference? All right.

I'm only saying conflict indicates disorder. So, then what? From there, move.

Move. You keep on going around in circles. Move.

I said, there must be a way of being free of this. Of what? Of conflict.

That's... Disorder. Of disorder...

Yes, which is the same thing. So... One word or the other. No, wait a minute.

Silence, harmony, conflict. That's all. Not disorder.

Conflict. You can take - forgive me for saying so, Krishnaji - you can take the word 'disorder' and go through the same gymnastics with conflict, and come to the same (inaudible) how do I... what do I do about conflict? That's what I...

Wait. That's all we are concerned - please. Silence, harmony, conflict.

Right? Now, how am I to deal with conflict non-artificially? Right?

(Inaudible) You know nothing, you are listening for the first time, therefore you have to go into it with me. Don't say, 'How do I know it for the first time?' - you don't know.

Somebody comes along and says, 'Look, look at this marvellous machinery', - you look. I see this much, that I can't think of silence or harmony when I am in conflict. That much is clear, sir.

So, is mind capable of freeing itself from conflict? That is the only thing you can ask. Right?

Can you ask that? I am asking. Is the mind capable of freeing itself from every kind of conflict?

What is wrong with that question? It is the mind again which is asking. (Inaudible) It is exactly the same, the question can the mind be free of discovering.

I don't see the difference between... But I'm not going... I am only saying - please, Pupulji - we have reduced it to conflict.

Right? Now I say, look, stick to that one thing, don't let's go round and round and round. Stick to that one thing, conflict, and see if the mind can be free of it.

And don't go around saying how - can the mind, knowing what conflict is and what conflict does, end conflict? Surely that's a legitimate question - no? No?

Why are you silent? Because you assume that the mind can do it. I don't... Sir, can we, if we look into this question of conflict...

Conflict is... No, sir, I meant rather, look into the aspect of it which is comparison, because there is no conflict without comparison. Conflict is contradiction, comparison, imitation, conformity, suppression, all that; put all that into that one word and accept the meaning of that word, as we defined it, and say, 'Can the mind be free of conflict?' Go on.

Of course it can be free, sir, it can be free of conflict, but the question which arises is what is the nature of that freedom from conflict? How do you know before you are free? That becomes theoretical.

No, sir, one has known... (inaudible) ...free from conflict for the time-being, by going through the conflict there is an ending of that state of conflict, for a while at least. Is there an ending completely of conflict? That's the question which I ask.

What is the nature of this ending and what do we mean by total... We are going to find out. I said some meetings ago there is no ending of conflict. He says that...

The universe as we live in it... Wait, sir, universe - don't include universe. In the universe there is apparently everything is moving in order.

Who says that? Hoyle. (Laughs) Astronomers.

Expanding universe. I'm talking of the mental universe... Wait.

Therefore don't use the word 'universe'. Let's stick to our minds which seem to be endlessly in conflict. That's right.

That's all. Don't bring in universe. The universe in which I'm in.

Don't justify it, for god's sake. We are trying to get on with the stuff. Now, how is the mind to end conflict, naturally, because every other method, system, is a compulsive method, a directional method, a method of control, and therefore all that's out.

Now, can the mind - yes - free itself from conflict. I say yes. Where are you at the end of it?

I think mind can be completely, utterly be without conflict. Forever. Don't use that word 'forever' because then you are introducing a word of time, and time is a factor of conflict.

I want to ask a very quick question. Can the mind be totally conflict? I am telling you... No, sir, can the mind be totally conflict?

Can the mind be in a state of total conflict? Just be conflict? Obviously.

What are you trying to say? I don't quite understand. You see, I feel myself totally helpless in this situation.

The fact is there is conflict. Yes. And the fact is that any operation of the self on that... We have been through all that, don't bring in.

Seeing the nature of that, can the mind say, if it is conflict it is conflict? I see what you are trying to say. Can the mind be aware of a state in which there is no conflict?

Is that what you are trying to say? No. The other way.

Or... Be totally the fact. Golly, you people are so quick. Or, the mind can only know conflict.

(Inaudible) Right? Right. Right.

Do you know, is your mind totally aware of conflict? Or is just words? You see...

Wait. Stick to one thing. Simple.

Simple. (Inaudible) I'm being simple. Is my mind totally aware that it is in conflict?