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Observe without the observer. That demands great attention. That attention brings its own order which is discipline.
There is no question of imposing an order. That very experiment, that very testing of observation without the observer brings its own order, its own sense of complete attention. And the mind observes without the observer, and remains totally unmoving, immobile with regard to 'what is'.
Right? Then what takes place? See what the mind has it has not been able to resolve 'what is', so it has wasted its energy in trying to escape from it, suppress it, analyse it, explain and so on, wasted its energy.
When it has not wasted its energy, to remain completely with 'what is' the mind has all its energy. You understand? Not a spark of energy wasted - there is no escaping, there is no naming, there is no trying to overcome it, suppress it, make it conform to a pattern and so on - all those are a wastage of energy.
Now when that energy is not wasted the mind is full of this energy and is observing actually 'what is'. Then is there 'what is'? Then is there confusion?
And to see all that is not only the truth but the wisdom of it. And out of that wisdom comes intelligence which will operate in daily life, which will not create confusion. You understand?
At the moments of negligence it may do something, it will correct it immediately. You follow? So that intelligence is all the time in operation - which is not my intelligence or your intelligence.
Have we taken the journey together - a little bit at least? (In Italian) In such kind of action there is no actor. Now, what is the relationship of that intelligence... what is the action of that intelligence in relationship?
You understand? I am moving away from it. Life is relationship - between man and woman, between nature and man, or woman, between human beings.
And so I am asking, what is the action of that intelligence which is born out of wisdom, which comes out of the perception of truth, what is the action of that intelligence in human relationship - because I have to live in this world? Right? I have a wife, children, family, the boss, the factory, shop and so on and so on and so on, so what is the action of that intelligence in my relationship with another?
Come on sirs, ask. How can you say beforehand? I can't hear, sir - the train.
One moment, sir - the train has the voice. How can you say beforehand what will happen? I never said that.
How can you say what the action of intelligence will be beforehand. I don't know what the action of intelligence is beforehand but we are enquiring now, what is the action of that intelligence in relationship? I am related to you, I am actually related to you because you are sitting there and I am sitting here, you are listening to me, we are sharing this together, we are observing this thing together, 'cooking' it together, therefore we are related - not in the sense of being intimate but as human beings we are related because it is common problem, it is our human problem.
So we are we are related, how does this intelligence act in this relationship? It must be love. Out of that intelligence comes love.
Coming out of that intelligence, love is the action. I don't know. That's an idea.
You see, sir, my mind will not accept a theory, an idea, a conclusion, speculation. It will only - my mind, not your mind, I am saying this mind - will only move from fact to fact, from 'what is' to 'what is', and nothing more. (In Italian) We must use words in this dialogue, and the moment we use words we are concerned with ideas, but the kind of dialogue you are insisting upon is almost impossible for most of us.
Sir, there is communication through words and communication through non-words, non-verbal as well as verbal communication. If I know how to listen to you, to the words that you are using, to the meaning of the words that you are using, which is common to both of us, if I really know how to listen to you verbally, then I also know how to listen to you non-verbally, because I can pick it up. I am asking a very simple question which will lead to a great deal of investigation, which what is the action of that insight which has brought about this quality of intelligence in my relationship with another human being?
Until I solve this my relationship must create misery, not only for you but for me also. So I must apply my whole being to find out, it isn't a casual, superficial investigation, because my life depends on it. I don't want to live in suffering, in confusion, in this appalling mess that civilisation, culture, has put me in.
Therefore my intelligence says, find out. Because you cannot live alone, there is no such thing as living alone. There is only isolation, which this culture has encouraged - in the business world, in the religious world, in the economic world, in the artistic world, in every world, in every sphere, it has encouraged me to be isolated.
I am an artist, I am a writer, far superior to everybody else, I am a scientist, or I am the nearest to god. So I know very well what isolation is, and in that isolation... to live in that isolation and have relationship with another means absolutely nothing. So my intelligence says, that's absurd, you can't live that way.
Therefore I am going to find out how to live in relationship and what the activity of that intelligence is in that relationship. What time is it? A quarter to twelve.
Shall we go on with this tomorrow? No, now. You want to go with it now?
You see I am doing all the work and you are merely listening. Sir, I want to know, please, test it out for yourself and ask yourself this you see what this intelligence is, which is the outcome of having an insight into the reality of 'what is', and the observation of that is wisdom and the perception of it is truth. Truth and the daughter is the wisdom, and the intelligence is the daughter of wisdom.
I have seen that. Now I am asking myself what is the action of that intelligence in relationship? In relationship has it any image, is my mind building an image about you who live in the same house as I do?
You may nag me, you may bully me, you may threaten me, dominate me, you may give me sexual pleasure and so on - does the mind build images? No. Wait!
Don't ever say, 'No', sir, find out! That requires great attention, doesn't it, you can't just say, 'Yes', or 'No'. It requires complete attention to find out if you have an image, and why the image comes into being.
(Inaudible) No, no, sir. I have no image, sir. Just listen, sir.
I am stopping you from saying, 'Yes', or 'No'. That's all. Let's investigate.
Let's share this problem together. When you say, 'no', or 'yes', you have stopped it. But if you say, look, let's find out, let's enquire, what is involved in this.
In that I haven't created an image about you at all, I have said, 'Please stop, look what we are doing'. Am I - is the mind, my mind, this mind, creating an image? If it is then it is not the activity of intelligence because it sees how images divide people, as nationalities have divided people, religions have divided people, gurus have divided people, the books, the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, this book, the Koran, and that book, have divided people.
So image, symbols, conclusions divide people. Where there is division there must be conflict. And therefore an action born out of conflict is a non-intelligent action.
So intelligent action is an action which is without friction, without conflict. And when I am related to you and I have an image, it is a stupid action, unintelligent action. So I see that.
Am I creating an image about you when you call me a fool, when I depend on you for my physical pleasure, or depend on you for my money, for your support, for your companionship, for your encouragement? So dependence is an action of a mind that is not intelligent. So I am beginning to discover, learn, what relationship is when intelligence comes into being.
You are following all this? It is really so astonishingly simple. Really simple.
It is simple but not easy. What is simple is the easiest thing, most practical. Not all your complicated things, they have lead to impracticality, to all this mess which is the result of utter futility.
What is simple, to see the truth that images divide people. That is simple, isn't it? And seeing the simplicity of it is the act of intelligence, and that intelligence will act in my relationship with you.
So I am watching how that intelligence is going to operate. You understand? I am related - you are my wife, my mother, my sister, my girl, whatever it is, I am watching.
I am watching to see how that intelligence operates. You understand, sir? And it sees the moment you create an image you are back into the old world, you are back into the rotten civilisation.
So the mind is watching, learning, and therefore intelligence opens the door to a life that is completely simple. Tomorrow. I am sorry for this foul weather - there it is!
Shall we go on with what we were talking about yesterday? I don't think we finished it. We were talking about human relationship.
It was a dialogue between us about human relationship. A dialogue is not a one-sided affair but both of us are taking part in the discussion, in the exploration, in the understanding together. And again, if I may point out, what we are talking about demands a serious mind, a mind that is really committed to the finding of a life, a way of living that is totally different, that has real meaning for living, and so on.
So we were yesterday morning talking about human relationship, and what is involved in it, and what place has intelligence in relationship? That is what we were trying to explore together yesterday. Most of us - I am not talking, I am just laying the cards on the table first - most of us in our relationship depend a great deal on another, depend for our physical pleasures, sexual as well as physical comfort, and also psychologically, inwardly, depend on another.
What is the relationship of a human being who is not at all dependent? We are going to investigate it together, this question, because if we depend on each other psychologically, then there is the sense of possession and domination and acceptance of status quo - not wanting to change anything, a relationship in which there will be no disturbance whatsoever, each accepting the involvement, the dependency, the inward satisfaction of ownership - I own you, you own me. And is it possible for a human being not to depend at all and therefore be completely psychologically self-sufficient?
And if that takes place what then is the relationship? So that is what we are discussing, talking over together this morning. First of all let us not, if I may suggest, talk about it abstractly, as an idea, but take it actually as it is.
We do depend, don't we? One depends on another psychologically - why? Please, I don't want to give a speech about it, please.
Why do you, or another, depend psychologically on another? We know we depend, we have to depend on another outwardly - when the milkman brings the milk, you know the outward dependence is absolutely necessary. We are talking of inward dependence.
Is one aware of this dependence? And what is involved in this dependence, and why does one depend on another inwardly? (pause) Go on, sirs.
Is one aware that one is dependent psychologically? Yes? No?
Let's be a little bit frank about this. (Inaudible) No, we are not saying what happens if you don't depend. Are we aware, do we know, are we conscious, or cognisant, that we are dependent on somebody inwardly?
(Inaudible) Sir, don't you know?, this is a very simple fact. Do I psychologically depend on you - for comfort, for encouragement, for sex and all the rest of it, you know, feeling that I need you, and you encourage me in my need because you also need me. Surely we are aware of this simple fact, aren't we?
All right, now let's go to the next step. Why do we have to depend, what is the drive that makes us depend on another? We are not saying it is right or wrong, we are just examining, observing.
Why does one have to depend on another, what is the motive, what is the drive, what is the action that forces you to depend on somebody? I do not feel fulfilled, therefore I depend. Ah, I do not feel fulfilled therefore I depend.
What do you mean by that word 'fulfil'? I do not feel whole. You do not feel whole.
You feel isolated, broken up and therefore you feel when you have a relationship of dependency that helps you to fulfil. Is that it? (Inaudible) I don't know sir, we are examining.
We want to know what do we mean by that word 'fulfil' - fulfil what? Pleasure. Pleasure?
I am whole, depending on you? You together make each other feel whole, sane, healthy? Is that it?
It seems that way. It seems that way. It is that way.
Comment madame? It is that way. That is, by myself I am isolated, by myself I am a fragment, a small part.
And to make myself whole, sane, complete, you are necessary. That is the relationship which we have accepted, in which we live, that is 'what is'. Right?
It is necessary for the expansion of consciousness. 'It is necessary for the expansion of consciousness'. That is, I depend on you to make me feel whole, and that helps to expand my consciousness.
Right? Does it? What do you mean 'expand your consciousness'?
Sir, we are using a lot of words, you know, throwing them out, to see if some of it is right, somewhere. Don't let us reduce this to 'Watergate'! (laughter) We feel separate from our innermost self.
Let's be simple about this. I'll go into it, step by step. I depend on you for various reasons.
And I am aware that I depend. Now I am asking myself why is it that I accept this dependence. I don't say it is right or wrong, it's beautiful, ugly, or this or that.
I say, what is it that makes me depend, what is the motive? Fear. Is it fear, is it expansion of consciousness - whatever that may mean - is it a sense of insufficiency therefore I need you to make me feel sufficient?
I am just asking, madam, step by step. Then what is it? Desire.
Desire? Madam, then what is it? (Inaudible) Sir, do you know you depend on somebody - on your wife, husband, girl, boy, whatever it is, do you know, are you aware that you are dependent?
Yes. Yes. Why?
Ask yourself, don't explain, find out why are you dependent. If you know you depend, you know why. The difficulty is to verbalise what you feel.
He says the difficulty is to verbalise what you feel. Sir, what is the difficulty in I depend on you because I am lonely, I am insufficient, I am frightened, I need a companion, I need to hold somebody's hand; I need you to love me because I don't know what love is; I am asking out of my emptiness that I be loved, and so on and on. Right?
Now, all that makes me depend on you. Then what happens in the process of this dependency? I know why I depend on you.
I have found all the motives. Now what is the result of this, or results, of this dependency? How can you know that you have found all the motives, sir?
Oh, no I don't have to go into all the motives, my lord! I am taking some of them, sir, that's good enough. My good god!
I take some of them, at least one is enough for me because if I understand one motive completely the rest I have understood. I don't have to collect all the motives and then discuss what they are, and this is not enough, that is enough - one motive is enough. I am lonely - I'll take that.
And out of that loneliness in which is involved, 'I must be loved, I need to be loved and I am afraid, I have a sense of emptiness, I have no meaning in life. By your companionship, by my dependence on you I feel I am becoming whole.' That's enough.
Now, what is the sequence of this dependency? You understand, sir? Psychologically I am frightened and to assuage that fear, to allay that fear I must have a belief in something, and that gives me great comfort.
Similarly I depend on you, what are the consequences of that dependency? Come on, sirs! Conformity.
Conformity. Haven't you noticed that you are dependent? And don't you notice what the next thing is?
I must possess you, you must be mine - legally, morally, physically, I must have you round me. I can't afford to lose you because in myself I am lonely, desperate, therefore I must possess you - no? Oh, for the love of...
So it is legalised in heaven and I marry you. And in that possessiveness what goes on? Oh, please!
Fear grows. Fear grows. Obviously.
I must possess you because I am lonely and I am afraid to lose you, therefore I safeguard my possession. You are following all this? For god's sake, it is so simple!
I possess you, therefore I must safeguard you, you are you are my wife, my girl, don't... and therefore in that possession, in that possessiveness I am afraid to lose you, I am anxious, I become angry. No? Violent.
And I ensure that I don't lose you, by legal marriage, vows, by all kinds of stratagems to hold you - flatter you, play with you, I yield to you. My god, don't you know all this? I don't find it like that.
You may be the exception, madam, I am talking of the average person, all of us. So what takes place in this relationship in which I depend on you, I possess you, what takes place actually? Conflict.
Obviously, conflict. Conflict, division - I go off to the office, there I am ambitious, greedy, envious, want to be big, you know, all that, I am isolating myself. I don't know if you're following?
And also I am isolated with my wife. So I have now an image which I have created about her and she has created about me, and our relationship is between these two images. Right.
For god's sake, let's move. Let's proceed. Then, what happens in our life?
Dependency, possession, jealousy, anxiety, fear, violence, the demand of more and more pleasure, sex and so on and so on, so on. And that's what we call relationship. Right?
And that is what we call love. Now why does the mind, feeling so completely lonely, why can't it resolve that loneliness and not proceed to be attached to something? You follow?
(Inaudible) I am lonely. You know what that means, don't you? I am lonely.
What would happen if I resolved that loneliness? Would I depend on you psychologically, and all the sequence of all that dependency? So my question is it possible for the mind to understand this loneliness, not verbally but actually deal with this loneliness, go beyond it and find out then what is relationship?
You understand? Now is it possible for the human mind, which feels so empty and therefore depends, so lonely, and therefore asks to be loved, can that loneliness ever be filled? We do it.
We actually do it. With the image of you I try to fill it, with the image of the religious figures, with politics, with every kind of activity to try to cover it up, or run away from it. Right?
Now, I won't run away from it because it is stupid. Now I have got this loneliness, I can't move away from it, so what am I to do? Please, discuss with me.
What am I to do, what is the mind to do with this loneliness which it feels? One should not escape from it. You shouldn't escape.
Why not, sir? When you say, 'I should not', which means you are. No?
Try and resolve this loneliness. 'Try and resolve this loneliness'. Right?
Who is to resolve it? Do your best. 'Do my best'.
Who is 'me' to do my best? Sir, please, do give a little attention to this. One feels terribly lonely.