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clojurians | clojure | <@Daniell> sounds good. but did you have a specific agenda in chasing the bleeding edge like that? I mean 1.8 was good and stable. care to clarify the motivations for this chase? I just can't help but wonder as most people won't go that far (or fast :) I guess.. | 2017-12-04T14:45:52.000342 | Kalyn |
clojurians | clojure | <@Kalyn> there's really not a reason not to. Clojure alpha/beta versions very rarely break existing features. Most of the time I upgrade, run the test suite, and if those tests pass we're good. | 2017-12-04T14:55:38.000325 | Sandy |
clojurians | clojure | to use either float? or double? here you’d need to do some conversion first. clojure.edn/read-string? will never return floats, only doubles | 2017-12-04T14:56:09.000238 | Margaret |
clojurians | clojure | Last time I remember Clojure "breaking" something critical was when they changed the hashing algorithm back in 1.6. But even that wasn't Clojure's fault since order of items in sets is undefined (hence why they are unordered sets). So that was a bit painful to fix, but it was considered a code cleanup since the problem was in the code that used Clojure. | 2017-12-04T14:56:41.000209 | Sandy |
clojurians | clojure | if what you want is to know if a string is a valid floating point number, I think the best option is `(try (Double/parseDouble %) (catch Exception _))` - it’s ugly but it works - either a number or nil comes out | 2017-12-04T14:56:52.000005 | Margaret |
clojurians | clojure | But I can't even think of a time I've had my *correct* code break from a Clojure upgrade. | 2017-12-04T14:57:07.000698 | Sandy |
clojurians | clojure | weren't there some issues with 1.2 -> 1.3 | 2017-12-04T14:57:18.000439 | Willow |
clojurians | clojure | i wasn't around back then so i don't know but i thought i remember hearing about that | 2017-12-04T14:57:29.000716 | Willow |
clojurians | clojure | well yeah, I'm not going that far back. and I joined Clojure right when 1.3 was released :wink: | 2017-12-04T14:57:37.000754 | Sandy |
clojurians | clojure | That was back in 2011, lol | 2017-12-04T14:58:28.000438 | Sandy |
clojurians | clojure | well there's a good answer then. there haven't been breaking changes in an upgrade for 6 years or so | 2017-12-04T14:59:19.000208 | Willow |
clojurians | clojure | There are times where there were perhaps legitimate questions whether a change in a release was breaking or not, such as the hash change in 1.6 also leading to hash inconsistency between Java sets and Clojure sets that were clojure.core/= before and after, but no longer had the same hash any more. | 2017-12-04T15:24:07.000170 | Micha |
clojurians | clojure | Which then causes sets or maps containing those things not to be clojure.core/= any more. | 2017-12-04T15:25:42.000392 | Micha |
clojurians | clojure | Such questions usually lead to refinements in the definition of what was promised, and what wasn't. | 2017-12-04T15:26:12.000252 | Micha |
clojurians | clojure | adding validation to the ns macro which subsequently stopped (ns foo (use bar)) being acceptable is another one of those things | 2017-12-04T15:29:02.000019 | Aldo |
clojurians | clojure | no one said it would work, but it did, and now it doesn't. given the low number of people affected and how easy it was to fix I'm glad they went with locking it down though | 2017-12-04T15:29:34.000060 | Aldo |
clojurians | clojure | Hmmm,
```
> (println '(and "foo"))
(and foo)
```
I would expect that to print `(and "foo")`. Does anyone know why it doesn't? Is there a way to include the quotes? | 2017-12-04T15:35:28.000162 | Henry |
clojurians | clojure | prn | 2017-12-04T15:35:42.000487 | Rebeca |
clojurians | clojure | Indeed, thanks! | 2017-12-04T15:37:11.000658 | Henry |
clojurians | clojure | ya, println tries to be human friendly. prn is for serializing data | 2017-12-04T15:38:19.000130 | Aldo |
clojurians | clojure | We've pretty much always used Alphas in production as they become available for over six years: because we want access to the latest features. We're using `clojure.spec` heavily in production, for example. | 2017-12-04T15:38:56.000212 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | ISTR 1.4 "broke" some stuff around numeric overflow / representation? (didn't affect us) and 1.5.0 had a memory leak (fixed in 1.5.1 -- we were spared that as we were on a pre-release of 1.5 in production at the time, before the leak was introduced, and we went straight to 1.5.1 because of our release schedules at the time). And the hash code change in 1.6 didn't bite us either (I'm still not clear on how widespread that breakage was?). | 2017-12-04T15:42:39.000348 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | We started with Clojure 1.3 (Alpha 7 or 8 in production) because we wanted to skip ahead of the big 1.2 -> 1.3 Contrib split and the AOT compatibility issues around that. It's also how I ended up maintaining `clojure.java.jdbc` -- because `clojure.contrib.sql` needed a maintainer to bring it across the 1.2/1.3 divide :slightly_smiling_face: | 2017-12-04T15:44:18.000228 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | We test our apps against Clojure's master SNAPSHOT as well as whatever version we're going to production with so we get a heads up of any breakage. | 2017-12-04T15:45:28.000281 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | <@Sandy> <@Daniell> thanks for the perspectives and explanation ― I sure learned something new | 2017-12-04T16:50:20.000019 | Kalyn |
clojurians | clojure | As someone who does not maintain a clojure core library, I might be a bit more conservative myself :slightly_smiling_face: but testing against Clojure's master snapshot sure sounds nice (especially if it doesn't break the test suite very often) | 2017-12-04T16:51:49.000616 | Kalyn |
clojurians | clojure | One of Clojure's strengths, in my opinion, is how stable it has been across versions. The Clojure/core team are very serious about accretion rather than breakage :slightly_smiling_face: | 2017-12-04T16:57:00.000666 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | Something else ― roughly one week ago I asked about writing code for stream-processing of data, which gave rise to a short discussion suggesting that although collections are sufficiently lazy (only up to 32 items may be realized under the covers at any point in time), transducers should be strictly preferred for a streaming application.
In streaming I mean, mainly, processing an input file using only a constant memory footprint, rather than consuming the entire (potentially humongous) file into memory and such. Then also processing the stream forward through whatever few processing steps, in a similar way, for the same reason.
Do folks here agree to that suggestion, about preferring transducers over plain lazy collections? | 2017-12-04T17:17:55.000317 | Kalyn |
clojurians | clojure | lazy collections and transducers aren’t mutually exclusive | 2017-12-04T17:23:12.000587 | Jonas |
clojurians | clojure | right | 2017-12-04T17:23:27.000025 | Rebeca |
clojurians | clojure | transducers are a good option for describing and composing the individual steps | 2017-12-04T17:23:39.000269 | Jonas |
clojurians | clojure | they also are useful for streaming because they don’t care about the source or the sink | 2017-12-04T17:24:02.000324 | Jonas |
clojurians | clojure | in general, for streaming processing, you are going to be working with folds (a tree shaped process, the degenerate shape of which is a linear reduce) | 2017-12-04T17:24:50.000668 | Rebeca |
clojurians | clojure | as far as processing data with constant memory requirements, you can use lazy sequences, but there are other good options as well | 2017-12-04T17:25:17.000212 | Jonas |
clojurians | clojure | once you are working folds, using transducers and transduce is pretty much a no brainer | 2017-12-04T17:26:06.000394 | Rebeca |
clojurians | clojure | there are also a lot of stream processing libraries to choose from that help provide a good story for how to put everything together | 2017-12-04T17:26:15.000093 | Jonas |
clojurians | clojure | when you are using a fold like reduce (or transduce) you also get a pretty clear scope for managing resources (like closing db connections, or files, or whatever) which lazy-seqs don't really give you | 2017-12-04T17:28:08.000105 | Rebeca |
clojurians | clojure | (interleave <@Jonas> <@Rebeca>) :slightly_smiling_face: | 2017-12-04T17:37:05.000149 | Bibi |
clojurians | clojure | XD | 2017-12-04T17:38:13.000322 | Ferdinand |
clojurians | clojure | <@Kalyn> I prefer transducers in this case simply beacause it's *really* hard *not* to hold onto the head of a seq with lazy seqs. And with transducers its pretty much impossible to shoot yourself in the foot this way. | 2017-12-04T17:52:56.000144 | Sandy |
clojurians | clojure | I've built too many systems that work fine until you get about 2GB of data through them then they fall over due to some sort of lazy-seq related memory "leak" | 2017-12-04T17:54:02.000186 | Sandy |
clojurians | clojure | Hello Everyone. Are there any good resources to learn Clojure quickly and efficiently? | 2017-12-04T18:06:45.000115 | Vicky |
clojurians | clojure | If you don't mind paying some $, Clojure Programming is a good book: <http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920013754.do> There are other fine books to learn from, also. | 2017-12-04T18:16:58.000416 | Micha |
clojurians | clojure | <@Vicky> I will also add Clojure for the Brave and true <https://www.braveclojure.com/> If you are looking for raw time to workflow, then brave clojure has the advantage there IMHO. If you want a more in depth resource, then the O'Reilly book is always a really safe bet. It just depends on where your priorities are. | 2017-12-04T18:23:02.000058 | Giovanni |
clojurians | clojure | Or Living Clojure by Carin Meier, or Programming Clojure 3rd Edition... :slightly_smiling_face: | 2017-12-04T18:30:25.000299 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | Clojure Programming is good for the basics but a little outdated now (it targets Clojure 1.5 I think?). | 2017-12-04T18:31:06.000110 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | Nope, 1.4 (examples work on 1.3 and 1.4). So I'd be cautious to recommend Clojure Programming at this point (although I love it as an all-round introduction to the language and some common libraries -- it's `clojure.java.jdbc` section is outdated, due to lots of improvements in that library... I'm not sure it's example even work with recent `clojure.java.jdbc` versions). | 2017-12-04T18:34:10.000315 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | <@Vicky> If you're new to Clojure, you'll find the folks in the <#C053AK3F9|beginners> channel are super helpful. | 2017-12-04T18:35:21.000306 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | I'm interviewing at a company that uses Clojure and React. I'm comfortable with React, just need to increase skills with Clojure. | 2017-12-04T18:36:14.000439 | Vicky |
clojurians | clojure | Thanks everyone for your help. | 2017-12-04T18:37:41.000020 | Vicky |
clojurians | clojure | Cool. Good luck with the interview! Are they using Clojure on the server or ClojureScript with React on the client? | 2017-12-04T18:39:08.000104 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | I think Clojure on the server? They never mentioned ClojureScript. | 2017-12-04T18:40:03.000311 | Vicky |
clojurians | clojure | 'k ... we're React on the front, Clojure on the back too ... it's a good combination. | 2017-12-04T18:42:48.000257 | Daniell |
clojurians | clojure | Where do you work....? Haha | 2017-12-04T18:44:51.000271 | Vicky |
clojurians | clojure | <@Daniell> Is that React without clojurescript? If so, what were the motivators for that decision? | 2017-12-04T18:45:39.000111 | Giovanni |
clojurians | clojure | Thanks <@Sandy> <@Jonas> <@Rebeca> for the excellent feedback.
I'm just not sure I get it regarding the comments about folds or fold-like reducing. Am I missing something really deep here? | 2017-12-05T02:11:43.000026 | Kalyn |
clojurians | clojure | <https://clojure.org/guides/destructuring#_namespaced_keywords> Why does `:keys` use a keyword (`:person/name`) for destructuring namespaced keywords rather than a symbol (`person/name`)? Both work, but given this guide it seems the former is what you're expected to use. | 2017-12-05T04:18:40.000392 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | <@Jodie> From the same page: "The `:keys` key is for associative values with keyword keys, but there are also `:strs` and `:syms` for string and symbol keys respectively." | 2017-12-05T04:29:09.000276 | Rogelio |
clojurians | clojure | <@Rogelio> My question is about syntax, not about how to pull out symbols. | 2017-12-05T04:30:17.000611 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | <@Jodie> using a keyword allows you to use ```(:person/name person)``` to get the name | 2017-12-05T05:40:24.000096 | Daine |
clojurians | clojure | I believe he's talking about the distinction when using `:keys` destructuring.
```
(let [{:keys [:person/name b]} {:person/name "Name" :b 2}]
[name b])
=> ["Name" 2]```
vs
```
(let [{:keys [person/name b]} {:person/name "Name" :b 2}]
[name b])
=> ["Name" 2]``` | 2017-12-05T06:02:34.000240 | James |
clojurians | clojure | The distinction between using `:person/name` as a keyword or `person/name` (as a symbol)
Why the first seems encouraged if both work and the second seems more in line with how we destructure unqualified keywords. | 2017-12-05T06:04:42.000078 | James |
clojurians | clojure | <@Jodie> I think it might be related to auto resolving keywords, possibly? Using `::some-ns/id` would work only if `some-ns` was available in that scope, but using symbols `some-ns/id` would be happily accepted either way. | 2017-12-05T06:08:35.000277 | James |
clojurians | clojure | alias resolving keywords is probably a good reason. I wonder if symbols are supposed to work? e.g. the same way that `(ns (require …))` worked until spec came in and caught everyone out. | 2017-12-05T06:10:22.000420 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | That's a good question. I went with the flow of always using keywords according to what's in the available documentation, but I agree that it introduces a somewhat odd distinction. | 2017-12-05T06:13:59.000406 | James |
clojurians | clojure | symbols in `:keys` are supposed to work | 2017-12-05T06:26:46.000369 | Kareen |
clojurians | clojure | destructuring syntax is already specced btw | 2017-12-05T06:27:43.000217 | Kareen |
clojurians | clojure | <@Kareen> Should the guide be updated to mention that `ns/name` is supposed to work? | 2017-12-05T06:58:59.000303 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | :keys destructuring intentionally takes keywords to support the use of autoresolved keywords (either :: or : with an alias) | 2017-12-05T08:58:47.000515 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | Symbols are preferred though if you’re not leveraging those features | 2017-12-05T09:00:07.000057 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | Symbols can be either namespaced or not - the name part of the symbol is always what the bound local name will be | 2017-12-05T09:00:59.000181 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | on the topic of autoresolved keywords, is there a jira ticket for being able for namespace aliases for non-existing namespaces? | 2017-12-05T09:01:23.000203 | Noella |
clojurians | clojure | just curious :slightly_smiling_face: | 2017-12-05T09:01:31.000684 | Noella |
clojurians | clojure | You mean as an enhancement? | 2017-12-05T09:02:01.000163 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | <@Sonny> I'm not familiar with `:` being used for autoresolved keywords, what do you mean by that? | 2017-12-05T09:02:06.000253 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | as an enhancement proposal, yes :slightly_smiling_face: | 2017-12-05T09:02:21.000668 | Noella |
clojurians | clojure | Re the enhancement, we have considered it (I actually implemented it) but Rich doesn’t want to change current state, however he has some ideas for an alternative for managing keyword aliases specifically | 2017-12-05T09:03:36.000056 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | Sorry I meant :: with an alias. InsufficientCoffeeException | 2017-12-05T09:04:33.000004 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | cool, I’ll keep an eye out, thanks! | 2017-12-05T09:04:34.000142 | Noella |
clojurians | clojure | That's okay! That brings me onto my next question then, does that mean the guide is wrong in suggesting the use of `:person/name` and instead `person/name` should be preferred? | 2017-12-05T09:05:07.000194 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | Feel free to file an issue or a pr! <https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site> | 2017-12-05T09:05:35.000084 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | Symbols are preferred in my opinion. Either should work. | 2017-12-05T09:06:50.000262 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | Either is valid, I’d say symbol is preferred | 2017-12-05T09:07:48.000272 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | Usually we use symbols in :keys (as they then match the created locals) | 2017-12-05T09:08:24.000363 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | With qualified, it’s a little muddier | 2017-12-05T09:08:38.000586 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | Yeah, until I knew about autoresolved keywords, the answer was very obvious. Now it feels like there's a special exception in `:keys`. | 2017-12-05T09:15:07.000245 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | Done <https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues/230> ! | 2017-12-05T09:19:23.000391 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | <@Sonny> I'm curious, could you give a hint as to what Rich would like this to look like? | 2017-12-05T09:21:27.000097 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | Nope, I don’t know | 2017-12-05T09:22:01.000206 | Sonny |
clojurians | clojure | what would you guys call this function?
```
(defn update-conj-vec
"Takes map and adds v to the collection at k. If value at k is currently nil v
is wrapped in a vector and set as k's value."
[m k v] (update m k #(if (nil? %) [v] (conj % v))))
``` | 2017-12-05T09:24:16.000505 | Timmy |
clojurians | clojure | I’m not happy with it’s name… | 2017-12-05T09:24:50.000096 | Timmy |
clojurians | clojure | `conj-at`? | 2017-12-05T09:26:29.000487 | Rogelio |
clojurians | clojure | <@Timmy> I've found that when I need that kind of function, I'm usually doing something wrong. | 2017-12-05T09:27:59.000408 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | hmmm `conj-at` is kind of nice…. | 2017-12-05T09:29:09.000126 | Timmy |
clojurians | clojure | <@Jodie> care to elaborate? I’ve got some maps with lots of lists in that need adding too…. what gives you that feeling? | 2017-12-05T09:30:21.000456 | Timmy |
clojurians | clojure | oh, I misread the docstring. Apologies. | 2017-12-05T09:30:57.000386 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | <@Timmy> `(conj nil 1)` does work btw. Is it important that it's a vector? | 2017-12-05T09:31:38.000007 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | <@Timmy> Not that you asked, but I'd write that like so:
```
[m k v]
(update m k (fnil conj []) v)
``` | 2017-12-05T09:33:39.000666 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | "Takes a map and conj's v to the collection at k. If the value at k is currently nil, a vector will be used as the collection type" is how I would word the docstring, the "how" of wrapping the v is too precise. | 2017-12-05T09:34:48.000270 | Jodie |
clojurians | clojure | oh `fnil` looks kind of handy. Thanks! | 2017-12-05T09:36:22.000672 | Timmy |
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