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y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is1kkln | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,594,514 | 0 | 2 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | I think it would pull your reader out of the story and end up being super frustrating. Of course, I can't know this for sure without reading your story, but if you want to switch character POV, I would just stick with 3rd person all the way through. | 0 | 21,837 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is09xyk | is1kkln | 1,665,573,359 | 1,665,594,514 | 0 | 2 | Yep. | I think it would pull your reader out of the story and end up being super frustrating. Of course, I can't know this for sure without reading your story, but if you want to switch character POV, I would just stick with 3rd person all the way through. | 0 | 21,155 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1kkln | is0arid | 1,665,594,514 | 1,665,573,892 | 2 | 0 | I think it would pull your reader out of the story and end up being super frustrating. Of course, I can't know this for sure without reading your story, but if you want to switch character POV, I would just stick with 3rd person all the way through. | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | 1 | 20,622 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1erjv | is1kkln | 1,665,592,247 | 1,665,594,514 | 1 | 2 | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | I think it would pull your reader out of the story and end up being super frustrating. Of course, I can't know this for sure without reading your story, but if you want to switch character POV, I would just stick with 3rd person all the way through. | 0 | 2,267 | 2 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is1r2c2 | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,597,048 | 0 | 2 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | Stop looking for feedback before you write it and see if it works yourself The only way you’ll know | 0 | 24,371 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is09xyk | is1r2c2 | 1,665,573,359 | 1,665,597,048 | 0 | 2 | Yep. | Stop looking for feedback before you write it and see if it works yourself The only way you’ll know | 0 | 23,689 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1r2c2 | is0arid | 1,665,597,048 | 1,665,573,892 | 2 | 0 | Stop looking for feedback before you write it and see if it works yourself The only way you’ll know | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | 1 | 23,156 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1r2c2 | is1erjv | 1,665,597,048 | 1,665,592,247 | 2 | 1 | Stop looking for feedback before you write it and see if it works yourself The only way you’ll know | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | 1 | 4,801 | 2 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is2am1q | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,604,612 | 0 | 2 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | I wouldn’t really mind the POV change, but the protagonist change is not preferable. | 0 | 31,935 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is09xyk | is2am1q | 1,665,573,359 | 1,665,604,612 | 0 | 2 | Yep. | I wouldn’t really mind the POV change, but the protagonist change is not preferable. | 0 | 31,253 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is0arid | is2am1q | 1,665,573,892 | 1,665,604,612 | 0 | 2 | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | I wouldn’t really mind the POV change, but the protagonist change is not preferable. | 0 | 30,720 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1erjv | is2am1q | 1,665,592,247 | 1,665,604,612 | 1 | 2 | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | I wouldn’t really mind the POV change, but the protagonist change is not preferable. | 0 | 12,365 | 2 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is2d9x6 | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,605,626 | 0 | 2 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | You have to make it VERY clear and a lot of intention. | 0 | 32,949 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is2d9x6 | is09xyk | 1,665,605,626 | 1,665,573,359 | 2 | 0 | You have to make it VERY clear and a lot of intention. | Yep. | 1 | 32,267 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is2d9x6 | is0arid | 1,665,605,626 | 1,665,573,892 | 2 | 0 | You have to make it VERY clear and a lot of intention. | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | 1 | 31,734 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1erjv | is2d9x6 | 1,665,592,247 | 1,665,605,626 | 1 | 2 | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | You have to make it VERY clear and a lot of intention. | 0 | 13,379 | 2 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is30zdo | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,615,136 | 0 | 2 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | I look at them, then see how I feel. If I feel called to, I give them a dollar or two that I keep in my car side door, and if it doesn’t feel right I smile and nod. Last week I gave a man a dollar and he told me I how much I was loved, but wanted to warn me war was coming so to make sure I get cash out of the bank to have handy. It was a profound experience that touched me and I frequently have ‘Spiritual’ exchanges like these as I remain open to them. Not everyone should be auto-ignored. | 0 | 42,459 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is30zdo | is09xyk | 1,665,615,136 | 1,665,573,359 | 2 | 0 | I look at them, then see how I feel. If I feel called to, I give them a dollar or two that I keep in my car side door, and if it doesn’t feel right I smile and nod. Last week I gave a man a dollar and he told me I how much I was loved, but wanted to warn me war was coming so to make sure I get cash out of the bank to have handy. It was a profound experience that touched me and I frequently have ‘Spiritual’ exchanges like these as I remain open to them. Not everyone should be auto-ignored. | Yep. | 1 | 41,777 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is30zdo | is0arid | 1,665,615,136 | 1,665,573,892 | 2 | 0 | I look at them, then see how I feel. If I feel called to, I give them a dollar or two that I keep in my car side door, and if it doesn’t feel right I smile and nod. Last week I gave a man a dollar and he told me I how much I was loved, but wanted to warn me war was coming so to make sure I get cash out of the bank to have handy. It was a profound experience that touched me and I frequently have ‘Spiritual’ exchanges like these as I remain open to them. Not everyone should be auto-ignored. | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | 1 | 41,244 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is30zdo | is1erjv | 1,665,615,136 | 1,665,592,247 | 2 | 1 | I look at them, then see how I feel. If I feel called to, I give them a dollar or two that I keep in my car side door, and if it doesn’t feel right I smile and nod. Last week I gave a man a dollar and he told me I how much I was loved, but wanted to warn me war was coming so to make sure I get cash out of the bank to have handy. It was a profound experience that touched me and I frequently have ‘Spiritual’ exchanges like these as I remain open to them. Not everyone should be auto-ignored. | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | 1 | 22,889 | 2 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is35sts | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,617,292 | 0 | 2 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | I’ve seen it done plenty of times as a means to differentiate between the chapters narrated by the main character and those following another, I’ve never seen it done halfway through | 0 | 44,615 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is35sts | is09xyk | 1,665,617,292 | 1,665,573,359 | 2 | 0 | I’ve seen it done plenty of times as a means to differentiate between the chapters narrated by the main character and those following another, I’ve never seen it done halfway through | Yep. | 1 | 43,933 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is0arid | is35sts | 1,665,573,892 | 1,665,617,292 | 0 | 2 | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | I’ve seen it done plenty of times as a means to differentiate between the chapters narrated by the main character and those following another, I’ve never seen it done halfway through | 0 | 43,400 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is35sts | is1erjv | 1,665,617,292 | 1,665,592,247 | 2 | 1 | I’ve seen it done plenty of times as a means to differentiate between the chapters narrated by the main character and those following another, I’ve never seen it done halfway through | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | 1 | 25,045 | 2 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is38bnu | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,618,426 | 0 | 2 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | It’s so distracting I hate switching between 1s & 3rd so much I can’t focus on the story | 0 | 45,749 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is09xyk | is38bnu | 1,665,573,359 | 1,665,618,426 | 0 | 2 | Yep. | It’s so distracting I hate switching between 1s & 3rd so much I can’t focus on the story | 0 | 45,067 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is0arid | is38bnu | 1,665,573,892 | 1,665,618,426 | 0 | 2 | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | It’s so distracting I hate switching between 1s & 3rd so much I can’t focus on the story | 0 | 44,534 | 2,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1erjv | is38bnu | 1,665,592,247 | 1,665,618,426 | 1 | 2 | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | It’s so distracting I hate switching between 1s & 3rd so much I can’t focus on the story | 0 | 26,179 | 2 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is08xqk | is1erjv | 1,665,572,677 | 1,665,592,247 | 0 | 1 | Normally I would say it’s perfectly fine to POV switch when it suits the story (I can see what you’re trying to do here, and why) but your particular situation causes a different problem. Most readers DESPISE when the author suddenly decides to switch protagonists mid-story. It’s like you’ve pulled the rug out from under the reader, and not in a good way. They spent all that time and emotional energy getting invested in that one character, and now you’re switching to another one? For what? What was the point of the first one, then? Does the real story actually start here? Why should we care about this new character? Why should we trust the author not to do this again? Why should we get invested all over again? And then your reader puts the book down because you’ve broken their trust and angered them. You would have to do this very well for someone to not be angry about this move, like making sure the reader has built a relationship with this new protagonist within the story of the first protagonist, and making sure the POV is absolutely justified and serves the story for the better, and not as some sort of gimmick. | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | 0 | 19,570 | 1,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is09xyk | is1erjv | 1,665,573,359 | 1,665,592,247 | 0 | 1 | Yep. | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | 0 | 18,888 | 1,000 | ||
y1yjjg | writing_train | 0.9 | is it dumb to switch from 1st person to 3rd i was thinking of starting in first person, and following a 'false' protagonist (in a sense) through the first half of the book. then, i was wondering if it would be a good idea to reveal that it turns out the protagonist as we have come to know him as has been recounting and speaking to another character, and when this dialogue ends, i would switch to the third person. then, the story would follow the character the original protagonist was speaking to. i was also thinking of changing from the past tense to the present tense to make this even more clear. i was wondering if this idea would be effective, or would it just be confusing? | is1erjv | is0arid | 1,665,592,247 | 1,665,573,892 | 1 | 0 | I'm wrapping up editing a novel that's about 1/4th First person because it's journal entries from the protagonist's grandfather. It works in the right context. | I just finished Paul Tremblay’s Cabin at the End of the World where he uses this device (both switching between 1st and 3rd person and tense), often mid page or paragraph. I’d say it works here because his writes from multiple POVs. I actually didn’t really notice it changing until it was pointed out. | 1 | 18,355 | 1,000 | ||
i5im9j | writing_train | 0.75 | Is it okay to switch between "said NAME" and "NAME said" depending on the context of the sentence? For me there's certain situations where the former is better than the latter, though it seems from my research online that people consider "NAME said" the better way to go overall. I'm just curious as to whether its frowned upon to switch between the two. | g0pe655 | g0pdrju | 1,596,823,534 | 1,596,823,341 | 6 | 2 | Yes, either way is fine. BUT Keep in mind that you should be using dialogue tags only when you have to. Most dialog will not have a dialogue tag unless: * There would otherwise be confusion about who is speaking. (This will be most of the times you use it) or * You need to fit an action into the scene and there isn't a better way to do it. (This will be more rare). If it doesn't fit one of those, then you can just leave the quotes with no tag at all. | I think "NAME said" is definitely more common, but I don't see any problem in switching between the two. I've seen it done before. | 1 | 193 | 3 | ||
i5im9j | writing_train | 0.75 | Is it okay to switch between "said NAME" and "NAME said" depending on the context of the sentence? For me there's certain situations where the former is better than the latter, though it seems from my research online that people consider "NAME said" the better way to go overall. I'm just curious as to whether its frowned upon to switch between the two. | g0pdrju | g0pn535 | 1,596,823,341 | 1,596,827,795 | 2 | 3 | I think "NAME said" is definitely more common, but I don't see any problem in switching between the two. I've seen it done before. | It's perfectly acceptable and is one of the ways you can reduce the repetitiveness of dialogue exchanges without silliness like saying someone EJACULATED their text or whatever. | 0 | 4,454 | 1.5 | ||
i5im9j | writing_train | 0.75 | Is it okay to switch between "said NAME" and "NAME said" depending on the context of the sentence? For me there's certain situations where the former is better than the latter, though it seems from my research online that people consider "NAME said" the better way to go overall. I'm just curious as to whether its frowned upon to switch between the two. | g0pvfiz | g0qjrjs | 1,596,831,756 | 1,596,844,129 | 1 | 2 | I wrote a sci-fi in which whenever an inanimate object said something, it was *...said the thing.* Then people speaking was ...*so & so said.* But yeah, it's really up to you as the author. I don't think that one is objectively better than the other. | Alternative: NAME1 : ”xxx” NAME2: “yyy” Some suspense writers use this, in particular John Sandford. Run along with quotes indented with few ‘NAME said’ or ‘said NAME’. Then use in succession: NAME 1: “Bla bla bla.” NAME 2: “Other Bla bla.” Then continue with indented quotes in succession. It’s at once contrived and economical. It changes things up, stands out like a sore thumb but it... works. So often I’ve been confused as to whom is speaking with long dialogue sections, so why not use an uncommon technique to get readers back on track? Real interested in comments on this option. | 0 | 12,373 | 2 | ||
i5im9j | writing_train | 0.75 | Is it okay to switch between "said NAME" and "NAME said" depending on the context of the sentence? For me there's certain situations where the former is better than the latter, though it seems from my research online that people consider "NAME said" the better way to go overall. I'm just curious as to whether its frowned upon to switch between the two. | g0pvfiz | g0qk1gm | 1,596,831,756 | 1,596,844,281 | 1 | 2 | I wrote a sci-fi in which whenever an inanimate object said something, it was *...said the thing.* Then people speaking was ...*so & so said.* But yeah, it's really up to you as the author. I don't think that one is objectively better than the other. | Yes, it’s okay. | 0 | 12,525 | 2 | ||
ulbxta | writing_train | 0.75 | How much is too much for a first time writer looking for developmental editing? I’m a first time author with plans to make a fantasy series. My first book which I’m working on now is so far complete at 159,000 words, but I have plans to split the work into two. I’ve contacted an editor who said for the size of my work it would cost $1550. Is spending that kind of money on editing when I’m a first-timer worth it? | i7uoa7f | i7uiv8d | 1,652,049,520 | 1,652,047,013 | 7 | 5 | My suggestion would be for you to edit it yourself. You may think I’m mean but since you’re a first time author, there’s a good chance that your story is bloated. Try to cut down as much as possible. Then have a few betareaders and ask them if they see other places to cut. Try to get it down to 100k words or so and then get an editor. That way you only pay $1000. Is it worth it? This is a question you should ask your betareaders. If they love your story and think plenty of other people would love it, then maybe it’s worth it. Just to be clear, the chance you make this money back is small. Consider it as investment in your learning rather hoping to make the money back later. Again, this may sound mean, but very few people make money with their first novels. | A good editor can teach you a lot | 1 | 2,507 | 1.4 | ||
ulbxta | writing_train | 0.75 | How much is too much for a first time writer looking for developmental editing? I’m a first time author with plans to make a fantasy series. My first book which I’m working on now is so far complete at 159,000 words, but I have plans to split the work into two. I’ve contacted an editor who said for the size of my work it would cost $1550. Is spending that kind of money on editing when I’m a first-timer worth it? | i7um9sr | i7uoa7f | 1,652,048,562 | 1,652,049,520 | 2 | 7 | Has anyone beta read it for you yet? I couldn’t afford an editor, but I had a few beta readers that gave me invaluable feedback. Not saying that’s a replacement for a professional editor, but a good beta reader can often point you towards the most problematic areas. If you do want to hire an editor, that price seems reasonable (though on the low side) | My suggestion would be for you to edit it yourself. You may think I’m mean but since you’re a first time author, there’s a good chance that your story is bloated. Try to cut down as much as possible. Then have a few betareaders and ask them if they see other places to cut. Try to get it down to 100k words or so and then get an editor. That way you only pay $1000. Is it worth it? This is a question you should ask your betareaders. If they love your story and think plenty of other people would love it, then maybe it’s worth it. Just to be clear, the chance you make this money back is small. Consider it as investment in your learning rather hoping to make the money back later. Again, this may sound mean, but very few people make money with their first novels. | 0 | 958 | 3.5 | ||
ulbxta | writing_train | 0.75 | How much is too much for a first time writer looking for developmental editing? I’m a first time author with plans to make a fantasy series. My first book which I’m working on now is so far complete at 159,000 words, but I have plans to split the work into two. I’ve contacted an editor who said for the size of my work it would cost $1550. Is spending that kind of money on editing when I’m a first-timer worth it? | i7um9sr | i7uvt2x | 1,652,048,562 | 1,652,053,193 | 2 | 5 | Has anyone beta read it for you yet? I couldn’t afford an editor, but I had a few beta readers that gave me invaluable feedback. Not saying that’s a replacement for a professional editor, but a good beta reader can often point you towards the most problematic areas. If you do want to hire an editor, that price seems reasonable (though on the low side) | As a developmental editor who specializes in sci-fi and fantasy, I think that price is very low. I’d charge double that for a piece of similar size and my own prices are on the low side. I think it’s a bit worrisome that an editor would offer such a low price, but not necessarily a red flag. Personally, I would’ve recommended an editorial (or manuscript) assessment before a full developmental edit in this case. It’s a cheaper service that would have given you some more overall solutions and some direction for your edits. If you can’t get an editorial assessment, I’d recommend that you cut it down before getting a developmental edit. Get some alpha/beta readers, read blogs, buy books etc. Actually, if you’d like, I can send you some recommendations or discuss the various types of developmental work in more detail. Comment or PM me. | 0 | 4,631 | 2.5 | ||
wyhfic | writing_train | 0.71 | Is ~4,000 words too long for a prologue if it includes an action scene? The prologue I’ve written is meant to characterize the main antagonist of my book series as well as show off some basics of the power system by seeing high level people fight. Hoping that also works as a hook. But is 4,000 words too long? It seems too long but I also don’t want the fight to be over too quickly as it’s meant to show off and get you intrigued in the power system. | ilxddg0 | ilz9vcc | 1,661,551,234 | 1,661,589,300 | 2 | 4 | That sounds like chapter one, not a prologue | Honestly, I don't care for longer prologues. I'm rather suspicious of anything that attempts to entice me with a specifically vague idea rather than the characters or plot. I have started so many books that could have been so good based on concept or power system, but have had to stop later on. I will now generally skim the prologue and read the first few chapters to figure if I want to read the book or not. | 0 | 38,066 | 2 | ||
wyhfic | writing_train | 0.71 | Is ~4,000 words too long for a prologue if it includes an action scene? The prologue I’ve written is meant to characterize the main antagonist of my book series as well as show off some basics of the power system by seeing high level people fight. Hoping that also works as a hook. But is 4,000 words too long? It seems too long but I also don’t want the fight to be over too quickly as it’s meant to show off and get you intrigued in the power system. | ilz73dm | ilz9vcc | 1,661,587,140 | 1,661,589,300 | 1 | 4 | It's impossible to know if something's too long until you've read it during editing. | Honestly, I don't care for longer prologues. I'm rather suspicious of anything that attempts to entice me with a specifically vague idea rather than the characters or plot. I have started so many books that could have been so good based on concept or power system, but have had to stop later on. I will now generally skim the prologue and read the first few chapters to figure if I want to read the book or not. | 0 | 2,160 | 4 | ||
wyhfic | writing_train | 0.71 | Is ~4,000 words too long for a prologue if it includes an action scene? The prologue I’ve written is meant to characterize the main antagonist of my book series as well as show off some basics of the power system by seeing high level people fight. Hoping that also works as a hook. But is 4,000 words too long? It seems too long but I also don’t want the fight to be over too quickly as it’s meant to show off and get you intrigued in the power system. | ilzgtsj | ilz73dm | 1,661,594,636 | 1,661,587,140 | 2 | 1 | A prologue can be used to quickly break into action to get the reader interested before the slowed act 1. It can also show the perspective of a non main viewpoint character. To me, what you've described in your prologue is what I think a prologue is ment to do and if it takes 4000 words that's fine. If it isn't from a main viewpoint or is somewhat removed from the main location/time period of the main plot (but is still important) it's a prologue not chapter 1. The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson does just this for its prologue. Has some world building but jumps right into magical action. It's also set 6 years before the main plot but shows a major event that sets up the entire series. And it's over 6,000 words. | It's impossible to know if something's too long until you've read it during editing. | 1 | 7,496 | 2 | ||
wyhfic | writing_train | 0.71 | Is ~4,000 words too long for a prologue if it includes an action scene? The prologue I’ve written is meant to characterize the main antagonist of my book series as well as show off some basics of the power system by seeing high level people fight. Hoping that also works as a hook. But is 4,000 words too long? It seems too long but I also don’t want the fight to be over too quickly as it’s meant to show off and get you intrigued in the power system. | ilzc36k | ilzgtsj | 1,661,591,078 | 1,661,594,636 | 1 | 2 | Is the book going to be carried by the power system? is it the only thing that makes the book worth reading? if it is then I see no problem with 4k first chapter (whatever you call it) | A prologue can be used to quickly break into action to get the reader interested before the slowed act 1. It can also show the perspective of a non main viewpoint character. To me, what you've described in your prologue is what I think a prologue is ment to do and if it takes 4000 words that's fine. If it isn't from a main viewpoint or is somewhat removed from the main location/time period of the main plot (but is still important) it's a prologue not chapter 1. The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson does just this for its prologue. Has some world building but jumps right into magical action. It's also set 6 years before the main plot but shows a major event that sets up the entire series. And it's over 6,000 words. | 0 | 3,558 | 2 | ||
wyhfic | writing_train | 0.71 | Is ~4,000 words too long for a prologue if it includes an action scene? The prologue I’ve written is meant to characterize the main antagonist of my book series as well as show off some basics of the power system by seeing high level people fight. Hoping that also works as a hook. But is 4,000 words too long? It seems too long but I also don’t want the fight to be over too quickly as it’s meant to show off and get you intrigued in the power system. | im16mcu | ilz73dm | 1,661,624,774 | 1,661,587,140 | 2 | 1 | I love a prologue and epilogue. If you don’t want to use those specific words, just head that section “A Millennium Ago…” or something similarly cool-sounding. | It's impossible to know if something's too long until you've read it during editing. | 1 | 37,634 | 2 | ||
wyhfic | writing_train | 0.71 | Is ~4,000 words too long for a prologue if it includes an action scene? The prologue I’ve written is meant to characterize the main antagonist of my book series as well as show off some basics of the power system by seeing high level people fight. Hoping that also works as a hook. But is 4,000 words too long? It seems too long but I also don’t want the fight to be over too quickly as it’s meant to show off and get you intrigued in the power system. | ilzc36k | im16mcu | 1,661,591,078 | 1,661,624,774 | 1 | 2 | Is the book going to be carried by the power system? is it the only thing that makes the book worth reading? if it is then I see no problem with 4k first chapter (whatever you call it) | I love a prologue and epilogue. If you don’t want to use those specific words, just head that section “A Millennium Ago…” or something similarly cool-sounding. | 0 | 33,696 | 2 | ||
wyhfic | writing_train | 0.71 | Is ~4,000 words too long for a prologue if it includes an action scene? The prologue I’ve written is meant to characterize the main antagonist of my book series as well as show off some basics of the power system by seeing high level people fight. Hoping that also works as a hook. But is 4,000 words too long? It seems too long but I also don’t want the fight to be over too quickly as it’s meant to show off and get you intrigued in the power system. | im16mcu | ilzr2x5 | 1,661,624,774 | 1,661,601,865 | 2 | 1 | I love a prologue and epilogue. If you don’t want to use those specific words, just head that section “A Millennium Ago…” or something similarly cool-sounding. | What are you writing? Depending on the genre you'll need the wc... And then some. | 1 | 22,909 | 2 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5bsix | ik57yqn | 1,660,409,726 | 1,660,408,159 | 27 | 5 | If you reach the words "The End", your first act is probably too long. There are no hard and fast rules for writing. As long as the pacing of your following acts don't feel rushed and work with the length and pacing of your first act, no length is too long or too short. | Based on my chapter planning, my story's Act 1 actually goes out to about 35%. And, imo, that's borderline problematic. That'll probably get edited down in later drafts. That being said, the inciting incident occurs at the end of Chapter 1. It hooks early, and the rest of Act 1 is the fallout and aftermath from the inciting incident. The transition between Act 1 and Act 2 is a major, heavy-consequences decision that the main character is forced to make, which launches the narrative along its Act 2 path. The inciting incident is not the transition between Act 1 and Act 2. If you're dropping 30k words before anything meaningful happens, then you have a problem. So, though an Act 1 can be too long, properly structuring your Act 1 is a more important consideration than its length. | 1 | 1,567 | 5.4 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik4wgm6 | ik5bsix | 1,660,403,285 | 1,660,409,726 | 2 | 27 | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | If you reach the words "The End", your first act is probably too long. There are no hard and fast rules for writing. As long as the pacing of your following acts don't feel rushed and work with the length and pacing of your first act, no length is too long or too short. | 0 | 6,441 | 13.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik6k9mg | ik61esf | 1,660,429,033 | 1,660,420,570 | 7 | 5 | Acts, percentages, inciting incidents, no one actually thinks about these stupid mechanical structures that are designed to sell to naive writers when they are reading a book. They think about “is this character I’m following interesting and are they doing interesting things” Stop being a slave to math. Stories are not math. | You don’t need to follow the three act structure exactly, even if you’re using it as a guideline. That said, the first act ends with “the point of no return/first act climax,” not “the inciting incident.” If your first act is 30k, that means the book will be about 120k in total. That’s fine for a fantasy book, but you’ll probably have to cut it down a bit when you’re done. Besides, the three act structure is pretty loose imo, especially in act 2. As long as you have some increase of stakes at the beginning of act 2, a twist in the middle, three climaxes of increasing tension, and something to wrap it up at the end—congrats, 3 act structure achieved. | 1 | 8,463 | 1.4 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik6k9mg | ik57yqn | 1,660,429,033 | 1,660,408,159 | 7 | 5 | Acts, percentages, inciting incidents, no one actually thinks about these stupid mechanical structures that are designed to sell to naive writers when they are reading a book. They think about “is this character I’m following interesting and are they doing interesting things” Stop being a slave to math. Stories are not math. | Based on my chapter planning, my story's Act 1 actually goes out to about 35%. And, imo, that's borderline problematic. That'll probably get edited down in later drafts. That being said, the inciting incident occurs at the end of Chapter 1. It hooks early, and the rest of Act 1 is the fallout and aftermath from the inciting incident. The transition between Act 1 and Act 2 is a major, heavy-consequences decision that the main character is forced to make, which launches the narrative along its Act 2 path. The inciting incident is not the transition between Act 1 and Act 2. If you're dropping 30k words before anything meaningful happens, then you have a problem. So, though an Act 1 can be too long, properly structuring your Act 1 is a more important consideration than its length. | 1 | 20,874 | 1.4 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik6k9mg | ik5sdoi | 1,660,429,033 | 1,660,416,628 | 7 | 3 | Acts, percentages, inciting incidents, no one actually thinks about these stupid mechanical structures that are designed to sell to naive writers when they are reading a book. They think about “is this character I’m following interesting and are they doing interesting things” Stop being a slave to math. Stories are not math. | It was my understanding that the inciting incident is within the first 10 and the first twist ends act 1 at around 25% | 1 | 12,405 | 2.333333 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik4wgm6 | ik6k9mg | 1,660,403,285 | 1,660,429,033 | 2 | 7 | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | Acts, percentages, inciting incidents, no one actually thinks about these stupid mechanical structures that are designed to sell to naive writers when they are reading a book. They think about “is this character I’m following interesting and are they doing interesting things” Stop being a slave to math. Stories are not math. | 0 | 25,748 | 3.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik6k9mg | ik5d089 | 1,660,429,033 | 1,660,410,205 | 7 | 2 | Acts, percentages, inciting incidents, no one actually thinks about these stupid mechanical structures that are designed to sell to naive writers when they are reading a book. They think about “is this character I’m following interesting and are they doing interesting things” Stop being a slave to math. Stories are not math. | What you regard as the inciting incident might not be the same as what the audience perceives as the close of the first act. It sounds like you’re thinking along the same lines as the discussion of minimalist vs maximalist prose, and probably joining that discussion would net you some clearer insight on your own approach I don’t think in acts or inciting incidents. The way I would perceive a first act is “the part of the story before the audience knows ‘okay this is what this story is gonna do.’” A maximalist approach to this would mean the audience wouldn’t care so much about the story as much as the language, and therefore you could take a really long time. It’s not about the story, it’s about the reading. The minimalist approach would be shorter obviously, but neither maximalist nor minimalist is inherently bad. Because this discussion gets to be too ambiguous when it comes to terminology, I usually say if the audience doesn’t know what your story is about it’s always bad. The audience will give you some latitude but if they don’t know why the things are happening the way they’re happening it’s never good An inciting incident doesn’t define ”what this story is about” — which is, again, the key thing to keep in mind as a writer — so for me it doesn’t matter if the inciting incident comes “late.” As long as the audience can grasp the text on an emotional level, the “first act,” however one defines it, could theoretically be the entire story except for the very end (which is common in the short story format, although some might say short stories START in the third act; see? terminology is ambiguous). Just make sure the readers are entertained, that’s the only thing matters | 1 | 18,828 | 3.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5g8ct | ik6k9mg | 1,660,411,472 | 1,660,429,033 | 2 | 7 | Without strictly adhering to the hero’s journey, I think if there’s some kind of hook or mini-mystery or character conflict introduced before that major event, it’s effectively going to serve as your “inciting incident” and that’s good enough. If you’re in chapter 2 and haven’t yet introduced anything to make me invested in what will happen next, that’s what I’d be concerned about, more than whether it strictly adheres to the “rules” of what defines an inciting incident. It doesn’t have to be a giant space battle. It could be that Captain Todd lost his lucky coffee mug and is searching the ship for it. But you should probably introduce some kind “quest” for at least one of your characters in the first chapter to provide momentum until the big event happens. To be honest I do this down to individual scenes; if a scene doesn’t involve at least one character with some kind of a clear goal to achieve which drives the scene, I either rewrite it or cut it. | Acts, percentages, inciting incidents, no one actually thinks about these stupid mechanical structures that are designed to sell to naive writers when they are reading a book. They think about “is this character I’m following interesting and are they doing interesting things” Stop being a slave to math. Stories are not math. | 0 | 17,561 | 3.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik6k9mg | ik5v8bs | 1,660,429,033 | 1,660,417,855 | 7 | 2 | Acts, percentages, inciting incidents, no one actually thinks about these stupid mechanical structures that are designed to sell to naive writers when they are reading a book. They think about “is this character I’m following interesting and are they doing interesting things” Stop being a slave to math. Stories are not math. | Doesnt matter, if it's good, people will like it. | 1 | 11,178 | 3.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik57yqn | ik5llny | 1,660,408,159 | 1,660,413,732 | 5 | 7 | Based on my chapter planning, my story's Act 1 actually goes out to about 35%. And, imo, that's borderline problematic. That'll probably get edited down in later drafts. That being said, the inciting incident occurs at the end of Chapter 1. It hooks early, and the rest of Act 1 is the fallout and aftermath from the inciting incident. The transition between Act 1 and Act 2 is a major, heavy-consequences decision that the main character is forced to make, which launches the narrative along its Act 2 path. The inciting incident is not the transition between Act 1 and Act 2. If you're dropping 30k words before anything meaningful happens, then you have a problem. So, though an Act 1 can be too long, properly structuring your Act 1 is a more important consideration than its length. | If you're keeping my attention instead of wasting it, it doesn't matter how long it is. | 0 | 5,573 | 1.4 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik4wgm6 | ik5llny | 1,660,403,285 | 1,660,413,732 | 2 | 7 | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | If you're keeping my attention instead of wasting it, it doesn't matter how long it is. | 0 | 10,447 | 3.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5d089 | ik5llny | 1,660,410,205 | 1,660,413,732 | 2 | 7 | What you regard as the inciting incident might not be the same as what the audience perceives as the close of the first act. It sounds like you’re thinking along the same lines as the discussion of minimalist vs maximalist prose, and probably joining that discussion would net you some clearer insight on your own approach I don’t think in acts or inciting incidents. The way I would perceive a first act is “the part of the story before the audience knows ‘okay this is what this story is gonna do.’” A maximalist approach to this would mean the audience wouldn’t care so much about the story as much as the language, and therefore you could take a really long time. It’s not about the story, it’s about the reading. The minimalist approach would be shorter obviously, but neither maximalist nor minimalist is inherently bad. Because this discussion gets to be too ambiguous when it comes to terminology, I usually say if the audience doesn’t know what your story is about it’s always bad. The audience will give you some latitude but if they don’t know why the things are happening the way they’re happening it’s never good An inciting incident doesn’t define ”what this story is about” — which is, again, the key thing to keep in mind as a writer — so for me it doesn’t matter if the inciting incident comes “late.” As long as the audience can grasp the text on an emotional level, the “first act,” however one defines it, could theoretically be the entire story except for the very end (which is common in the short story format, although some might say short stories START in the third act; see? terminology is ambiguous). Just make sure the readers are entertained, that’s the only thing matters | If you're keeping my attention instead of wasting it, it doesn't matter how long it is. | 0 | 3,527 | 3.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5g8ct | ik5llny | 1,660,411,472 | 1,660,413,732 | 2 | 7 | Without strictly adhering to the hero’s journey, I think if there’s some kind of hook or mini-mystery or character conflict introduced before that major event, it’s effectively going to serve as your “inciting incident” and that’s good enough. If you’re in chapter 2 and haven’t yet introduced anything to make me invested in what will happen next, that’s what I’d be concerned about, more than whether it strictly adheres to the “rules” of what defines an inciting incident. It doesn’t have to be a giant space battle. It could be that Captain Todd lost his lucky coffee mug and is searching the ship for it. But you should probably introduce some kind “quest” for at least one of your characters in the first chapter to provide momentum until the big event happens. To be honest I do this down to individual scenes; if a scene doesn’t involve at least one character with some kind of a clear goal to achieve which drives the scene, I either rewrite it or cut it. | If you're keeping my attention instead of wasting it, it doesn't matter how long it is. | 0 | 2,260 | 3.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik61esf | ik5sdoi | 1,660,420,570 | 1,660,416,628 | 5 | 3 | You don’t need to follow the three act structure exactly, even if you’re using it as a guideline. That said, the first act ends with “the point of no return/first act climax,” not “the inciting incident.” If your first act is 30k, that means the book will be about 120k in total. That’s fine for a fantasy book, but you’ll probably have to cut it down a bit when you’re done. Besides, the three act structure is pretty loose imo, especially in act 2. As long as you have some increase of stakes at the beginning of act 2, a twist in the middle, three climaxes of increasing tension, and something to wrap it up at the end—congrats, 3 act structure achieved. | It was my understanding that the inciting incident is within the first 10 and the first twist ends act 1 at around 25% | 1 | 3,942 | 1.666667 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik61esf | ik4wgm6 | 1,660,420,570 | 1,660,403,285 | 5 | 2 | You don’t need to follow the three act structure exactly, even if you’re using it as a guideline. That said, the first act ends with “the point of no return/first act climax,” not “the inciting incident.” If your first act is 30k, that means the book will be about 120k in total. That’s fine for a fantasy book, but you’ll probably have to cut it down a bit when you’re done. Besides, the three act structure is pretty loose imo, especially in act 2. As long as you have some increase of stakes at the beginning of act 2, a twist in the middle, three climaxes of increasing tension, and something to wrap it up at the end—congrats, 3 act structure achieved. | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | 1 | 17,285 | 2.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik61esf | ik5d089 | 1,660,420,570 | 1,660,410,205 | 5 | 2 | You don’t need to follow the three act structure exactly, even if you’re using it as a guideline. That said, the first act ends with “the point of no return/first act climax,” not “the inciting incident.” If your first act is 30k, that means the book will be about 120k in total. That’s fine for a fantasy book, but you’ll probably have to cut it down a bit when you’re done. Besides, the three act structure is pretty loose imo, especially in act 2. As long as you have some increase of stakes at the beginning of act 2, a twist in the middle, three climaxes of increasing tension, and something to wrap it up at the end—congrats, 3 act structure achieved. | What you regard as the inciting incident might not be the same as what the audience perceives as the close of the first act. It sounds like you’re thinking along the same lines as the discussion of minimalist vs maximalist prose, and probably joining that discussion would net you some clearer insight on your own approach I don’t think in acts or inciting incidents. The way I would perceive a first act is “the part of the story before the audience knows ‘okay this is what this story is gonna do.’” A maximalist approach to this would mean the audience wouldn’t care so much about the story as much as the language, and therefore you could take a really long time. It’s not about the story, it’s about the reading. The minimalist approach would be shorter obviously, but neither maximalist nor minimalist is inherently bad. Because this discussion gets to be too ambiguous when it comes to terminology, I usually say if the audience doesn’t know what your story is about it’s always bad. The audience will give you some latitude but if they don’t know why the things are happening the way they’re happening it’s never good An inciting incident doesn’t define ”what this story is about” — which is, again, the key thing to keep in mind as a writer — so for me it doesn’t matter if the inciting incident comes “late.” As long as the audience can grasp the text on an emotional level, the “first act,” however one defines it, could theoretically be the entire story except for the very end (which is common in the short story format, although some might say short stories START in the third act; see? terminology is ambiguous). Just make sure the readers are entertained, that’s the only thing matters | 1 | 10,365 | 2.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5g8ct | ik61esf | 1,660,411,472 | 1,660,420,570 | 2 | 5 | Without strictly adhering to the hero’s journey, I think if there’s some kind of hook or mini-mystery or character conflict introduced before that major event, it’s effectively going to serve as your “inciting incident” and that’s good enough. If you’re in chapter 2 and haven’t yet introduced anything to make me invested in what will happen next, that’s what I’d be concerned about, more than whether it strictly adheres to the “rules” of what defines an inciting incident. It doesn’t have to be a giant space battle. It could be that Captain Todd lost his lucky coffee mug and is searching the ship for it. But you should probably introduce some kind “quest” for at least one of your characters in the first chapter to provide momentum until the big event happens. To be honest I do this down to individual scenes; if a scene doesn’t involve at least one character with some kind of a clear goal to achieve which drives the scene, I either rewrite it or cut it. | You don’t need to follow the three act structure exactly, even if you’re using it as a guideline. That said, the first act ends with “the point of no return/first act climax,” not “the inciting incident.” If your first act is 30k, that means the book will be about 120k in total. That’s fine for a fantasy book, but you’ll probably have to cut it down a bit when you’re done. Besides, the three act structure is pretty loose imo, especially in act 2. As long as you have some increase of stakes at the beginning of act 2, a twist in the middle, three climaxes of increasing tension, and something to wrap it up at the end—congrats, 3 act structure achieved. | 0 | 9,098 | 2.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik61esf | ik5v8bs | 1,660,420,570 | 1,660,417,855 | 5 | 2 | You don’t need to follow the three act structure exactly, even if you’re using it as a guideline. That said, the first act ends with “the point of no return/first act climax,” not “the inciting incident.” If your first act is 30k, that means the book will be about 120k in total. That’s fine for a fantasy book, but you’ll probably have to cut it down a bit when you’re done. Besides, the three act structure is pretty loose imo, especially in act 2. As long as you have some increase of stakes at the beginning of act 2, a twist in the middle, three climaxes of increasing tension, and something to wrap it up at the end—congrats, 3 act structure achieved. | Doesnt matter, if it's good, people will like it. | 1 | 2,715 | 2.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik4wgm6 | ik57yqn | 1,660,403,285 | 1,660,408,159 | 2 | 5 | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | Based on my chapter planning, my story's Act 1 actually goes out to about 35%. And, imo, that's borderline problematic. That'll probably get edited down in later drafts. That being said, the inciting incident occurs at the end of Chapter 1. It hooks early, and the rest of Act 1 is the fallout and aftermath from the inciting incident. The transition between Act 1 and Act 2 is a major, heavy-consequences decision that the main character is forced to make, which launches the narrative along its Act 2 path. The inciting incident is not the transition between Act 1 and Act 2. If you're dropping 30k words before anything meaningful happens, then you have a problem. So, though an Act 1 can be too long, properly structuring your Act 1 is a more important consideration than its length. | 0 | 4,874 | 2.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5sdoi | ik4wgm6 | 1,660,416,628 | 1,660,403,285 | 3 | 2 | It was my understanding that the inciting incident is within the first 10 and the first twist ends act 1 at around 25% | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | 1 | 13,343 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5sdoi | ik5d089 | 1,660,416,628 | 1,660,410,205 | 3 | 2 | It was my understanding that the inciting incident is within the first 10 and the first twist ends act 1 at around 25% | What you regard as the inciting incident might not be the same as what the audience perceives as the close of the first act. It sounds like you’re thinking along the same lines as the discussion of minimalist vs maximalist prose, and probably joining that discussion would net you some clearer insight on your own approach I don’t think in acts or inciting incidents. The way I would perceive a first act is “the part of the story before the audience knows ‘okay this is what this story is gonna do.’” A maximalist approach to this would mean the audience wouldn’t care so much about the story as much as the language, and therefore you could take a really long time. It’s not about the story, it’s about the reading. The minimalist approach would be shorter obviously, but neither maximalist nor minimalist is inherently bad. Because this discussion gets to be too ambiguous when it comes to terminology, I usually say if the audience doesn’t know what your story is about it’s always bad. The audience will give you some latitude but if they don’t know why the things are happening the way they’re happening it’s never good An inciting incident doesn’t define ”what this story is about” — which is, again, the key thing to keep in mind as a writer — so for me it doesn’t matter if the inciting incident comes “late.” As long as the audience can grasp the text on an emotional level, the “first act,” however one defines it, could theoretically be the entire story except for the very end (which is common in the short story format, although some might say short stories START in the third act; see? terminology is ambiguous). Just make sure the readers are entertained, that’s the only thing matters | 1 | 6,423 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5g8ct | ik5sdoi | 1,660,411,472 | 1,660,416,628 | 2 | 3 | Without strictly adhering to the hero’s journey, I think if there’s some kind of hook or mini-mystery or character conflict introduced before that major event, it’s effectively going to serve as your “inciting incident” and that’s good enough. If you’re in chapter 2 and haven’t yet introduced anything to make me invested in what will happen next, that’s what I’d be concerned about, more than whether it strictly adheres to the “rules” of what defines an inciting incident. It doesn’t have to be a giant space battle. It could be that Captain Todd lost his lucky coffee mug and is searching the ship for it. But you should probably introduce some kind “quest” for at least one of your characters in the first chapter to provide momentum until the big event happens. To be honest I do this down to individual scenes; if a scene doesn’t involve at least one character with some kind of a clear goal to achieve which drives the scene, I either rewrite it or cut it. | It was my understanding that the inciting incident is within the first 10 and the first twist ends act 1 at around 25% | 0 | 5,156 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7qom5 | ik4wgm6 | 1,660,450,145 | 1,660,403,285 | 3 | 2 | If it is interesting bilbo can stay in the shire and weed his garden for an entire book or more. The key point is... is what you're writing still interesting, are things changing, is there character development going on. Not everything needs to be a life or death struggle. 50 shades of grey is basicly "the office" but smutty, look how well that turned out. | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | 1 | 46,860 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik5d089 | ik7qom5 | 1,660,410,205 | 1,660,450,145 | 2 | 3 | What you regard as the inciting incident might not be the same as what the audience perceives as the close of the first act. It sounds like you’re thinking along the same lines as the discussion of minimalist vs maximalist prose, and probably joining that discussion would net you some clearer insight on your own approach I don’t think in acts or inciting incidents. The way I would perceive a first act is “the part of the story before the audience knows ‘okay this is what this story is gonna do.’” A maximalist approach to this would mean the audience wouldn’t care so much about the story as much as the language, and therefore you could take a really long time. It’s not about the story, it’s about the reading. The minimalist approach would be shorter obviously, but neither maximalist nor minimalist is inherently bad. Because this discussion gets to be too ambiguous when it comes to terminology, I usually say if the audience doesn’t know what your story is about it’s always bad. The audience will give you some latitude but if they don’t know why the things are happening the way they’re happening it’s never good An inciting incident doesn’t define ”what this story is about” — which is, again, the key thing to keep in mind as a writer — so for me it doesn’t matter if the inciting incident comes “late.” As long as the audience can grasp the text on an emotional level, the “first act,” however one defines it, could theoretically be the entire story except for the very end (which is common in the short story format, although some might say short stories START in the third act; see? terminology is ambiguous). Just make sure the readers are entertained, that’s the only thing matters | If it is interesting bilbo can stay in the shire and weed his garden for an entire book or more. The key point is... is what you're writing still interesting, are things changing, is there character development going on. Not everything needs to be a life or death struggle. 50 shades of grey is basicly "the office" but smutty, look how well that turned out. | 0 | 39,940 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7qom5 | ik5g8ct | 1,660,450,145 | 1,660,411,472 | 3 | 2 | If it is interesting bilbo can stay in the shire and weed his garden for an entire book or more. The key point is... is what you're writing still interesting, are things changing, is there character development going on. Not everything needs to be a life or death struggle. 50 shades of grey is basicly "the office" but smutty, look how well that turned out. | Without strictly adhering to the hero’s journey, I think if there’s some kind of hook or mini-mystery or character conflict introduced before that major event, it’s effectively going to serve as your “inciting incident” and that’s good enough. If you’re in chapter 2 and haven’t yet introduced anything to make me invested in what will happen next, that’s what I’d be concerned about, more than whether it strictly adheres to the “rules” of what defines an inciting incident. It doesn’t have to be a giant space battle. It could be that Captain Todd lost his lucky coffee mug and is searching the ship for it. But you should probably introduce some kind “quest” for at least one of your characters in the first chapter to provide momentum until the big event happens. To be honest I do this down to individual scenes; if a scene doesn’t involve at least one character with some kind of a clear goal to achieve which drives the scene, I either rewrite it or cut it. | 1 | 38,673 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7qom5 | ik5v8bs | 1,660,450,145 | 1,660,417,855 | 3 | 2 | If it is interesting bilbo can stay in the shire and weed his garden for an entire book or more. The key point is... is what you're writing still interesting, are things changing, is there character development going on. Not everything needs to be a life or death struggle. 50 shades of grey is basicly "the office" but smutty, look how well that turned out. | Doesnt matter, if it's good, people will like it. | 1 | 32,290 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik6qrnu | ik7qom5 | 1,660,432,098 | 1,660,450,145 | 2 | 3 | Sounds like a decision to be based on beta reader feedback. I don’t like conforming to a format, because there are always exceptions to things that work and don’t work. I’m not saying throw all advice out the window, but you will know where things *need* to be in the story. Make it the best you can on your own and then get some outside opinions. | If it is interesting bilbo can stay in the shire and weed his garden for an entire book or more. The key point is... is what you're writing still interesting, are things changing, is there character development going on. Not everything needs to be a life or death struggle. 50 shades of grey is basicly "the office" but smutty, look how well that turned out. | 0 | 18,047 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7r4tg | ik4wgm6 | 1,660,450,417 | 1,660,403,285 | 3 | 2 | It is not a rule, but a roadmap. It is a way to start; not a cheat. | Don't sweat it. You can fix any issues during revision. If you fail it's awesome, because you'll learn from it and will have a better sense of pacing in your next story! | 1 | 47,132 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7r4tg | ik5d089 | 1,660,450,417 | 1,660,410,205 | 3 | 2 | It is not a rule, but a roadmap. It is a way to start; not a cheat. | What you regard as the inciting incident might not be the same as what the audience perceives as the close of the first act. It sounds like you’re thinking along the same lines as the discussion of minimalist vs maximalist prose, and probably joining that discussion would net you some clearer insight on your own approach I don’t think in acts or inciting incidents. The way I would perceive a first act is “the part of the story before the audience knows ‘okay this is what this story is gonna do.’” A maximalist approach to this would mean the audience wouldn’t care so much about the story as much as the language, and therefore you could take a really long time. It’s not about the story, it’s about the reading. The minimalist approach would be shorter obviously, but neither maximalist nor minimalist is inherently bad. Because this discussion gets to be too ambiguous when it comes to terminology, I usually say if the audience doesn’t know what your story is about it’s always bad. The audience will give you some latitude but if they don’t know why the things are happening the way they’re happening it’s never good An inciting incident doesn’t define ”what this story is about” — which is, again, the key thing to keep in mind as a writer — so for me it doesn’t matter if the inciting incident comes “late.” As long as the audience can grasp the text on an emotional level, the “first act,” however one defines it, could theoretically be the entire story except for the very end (which is common in the short story format, although some might say short stories START in the third act; see? terminology is ambiguous). Just make sure the readers are entertained, that’s the only thing matters | 1 | 40,212 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7r4tg | ik5g8ct | 1,660,450,417 | 1,660,411,472 | 3 | 2 | It is not a rule, but a roadmap. It is a way to start; not a cheat. | Without strictly adhering to the hero’s journey, I think if there’s some kind of hook or mini-mystery or character conflict introduced before that major event, it’s effectively going to serve as your “inciting incident” and that’s good enough. If you’re in chapter 2 and haven’t yet introduced anything to make me invested in what will happen next, that’s what I’d be concerned about, more than whether it strictly adheres to the “rules” of what defines an inciting incident. It doesn’t have to be a giant space battle. It could be that Captain Todd lost his lucky coffee mug and is searching the ship for it. But you should probably introduce some kind “quest” for at least one of your characters in the first chapter to provide momentum until the big event happens. To be honest I do this down to individual scenes; if a scene doesn’t involve at least one character with some kind of a clear goal to achieve which drives the scene, I either rewrite it or cut it. | 1 | 38,945 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7r4tg | ik5v8bs | 1,660,450,417 | 1,660,417,855 | 3 | 2 | It is not a rule, but a roadmap. It is a way to start; not a cheat. | Doesnt matter, if it's good, people will like it. | 1 | 32,562 | 1.5 | ||
wnewqg | writing_train | 0.93 | How long is too long for a First Act? I tried to stick with the 25% rule and ended up with 20% instead (which was better than I hoped). The only problem is that, even though I stuck to the structuring, my first act is around 30k words. Half of it takes place during a battle, while the other half takes place in normal character-driven scenes that are introducing the characters and plot elements yada-yada. This just seems like a lot of reading before my reader reaches the inciting incident (which is directly tied to the battle). I have already decided to try and improve and streamline the battle, but I don’t know if this will still make the First Act too long? Thanks in advance to your replies! I will try to reply to all of them (as I always do)! | ik7r4tg | ik6qrnu | 1,660,450,417 | 1,660,432,098 | 3 | 2 | It is not a rule, but a roadmap. It is a way to start; not a cheat. | Sounds like a decision to be based on beta reader feedback. I don’t like conforming to a format, because there are always exceptions to things that work and don’t work. I’m not saying throw all advice out the window, but you will know where things *need* to be in the story. Make it the best you can on your own and then get some outside opinions. | 1 | 18,319 | 1.5 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu35s30 | iu34dxj | 1,666,934,376 | 1,666,933,439 | 50 | 22 | Passive voice automatically anonymizes the discussion by shifting the focus away from the actors and toward the action. This is handy when you’re not personalizing or dramatizing the action. Of course, in fiction, making things personal and dramatic is kinda the point. | It's just a matter of practice, really. As you're writing, ask yourself "what is doing the acting in this sentence?" Once you know that, you make sure that the actor is the subject of the sentence. Active voice: > The kid threw the ball. The kid is the one doing the action, and the kid is the subject of the sentence. Passive voice: > The ball was thrown by the kid. The kid is still doing the action, but the ball is the subject of the sentence. | 1 | 937 | 2.272727 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu353tg | iu35s30 | 1,666,933,912 | 1,666,934,376 | 10 | 50 | There are times when the passive voice is appropriate. If the actor is not known or it just sounds better, use it. I write a lot of business docs and use the passive voice when the actor doesn't want to take responsibility for an action. It gets to be an annoying habit. | Passive voice automatically anonymizes the discussion by shifting the focus away from the actors and toward the action. This is handy when you’re not personalizing or dramatizing the action. Of course, in fiction, making things personal and dramatic is kinda the point. | 0 | 464 | 5 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu3jmn2 | iu3mnzf | 1,666,945,505 | 1,666,948,191 | 3 | 10 | First write the thing however it comes out, then take a grammar book/website/whatever that shows you the markers of passive voice. Highlight them in your text, then rewrite the whole thing, correcting yourself as you go. After you've done this process for a few times, there's a good chance you start automatically fixing yourself even during the first draft. | I just want to clarify if you're using the official meaning of 'passive voice' - ie. sentences where the object is before the subject ('The mat was sat on by the cat' rather than 'The cat sat on the mat'), or perhaps mean something else? I ask because most of your post is already in active voice. | 0 | 2,686 | 3.333333 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu3qhil | iu3t6jj | 1,666,951,391 | 1,666,953,494 | 1 | 3 | Passive voice sentences typically run longer than active voice sentences. Tom threw the ball. The ball was thrown by Tom. You are aiming for writing that is simpler and more concise anyway so do an editing pass with the goal of shortening your sentences. | Are you asking more about copywriting than fiction writing? I kind of got that sense in your post. If so it would help to see an example of the type of writing you're doing. The health field can be tricky because sometimes there *are* no clear subjects in your sentences, or you're trying to talk about patient groups without seeming too clinical or dehumanizing people. So, passive voice sneaks in as a solution. Anyway, examples would help! | 0 | 2,103 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4bk8e | iu3qhil | 1,666,963,925 | 1,666,951,391 | 3 | 1 | Here's my quick rule of thumb for a lot of passive voice fixes: change the progressive tense to the present tense or past tense. Especially the use of verbs that for states of being. For example: "The boy was running" becomes "The Boy Ran"; "She was watching the movie" becomes "She watched the movie"; "I am hitting the ground" becomes "I hit the ground." Often, the progressive tense has excess verbiage because the use of "was, being, et al." is implied by the action. You exist, so obviously you "were". I've found that a lot of passive voice critiques center around this issue. Look for the use of states of being verbs and progressive tense, and it will dramatically reduce your use of passive voice. And remember, sometimes passive voice is useful when you want to indicate that something is being done to something else. Just make sure it's in moderation and used as appropriately as possible. | Passive voice sentences typically run longer than active voice sentences. Tom threw the ball. The ball was thrown by Tom. You are aiming for writing that is simpler and more concise anyway so do an editing pass with the goal of shortening your sentences. | 1 | 12,534 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu3vu0u | iu4bk8e | 1,666,955,359 | 1,666,963,925 | 1 | 3 | Are you sure the issue is passive voice and not a matter of them wanting you to write in a more formal/academic tone? Here are two pages I found that might help with writing essays. | Here's my quick rule of thumb for a lot of passive voice fixes: change the progressive tense to the present tense or past tense. Especially the use of verbs that for states of being. For example: "The boy was running" becomes "The Boy Ran"; "She was watching the movie" becomes "She watched the movie"; "I am hitting the ground" becomes "I hit the ground." Often, the progressive tense has excess verbiage because the use of "was, being, et al." is implied by the action. You exist, so obviously you "were". I've found that a lot of passive voice critiques center around this issue. Look for the use of states of being verbs and progressive tense, and it will dramatically reduce your use of passive voice. And remember, sometimes passive voice is useful when you want to indicate that something is being done to something else. Just make sure it's in moderation and used as appropriately as possible. | 0 | 8,566 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu3wo2a | iu4bk8e | 1,666,955,908 | 1,666,963,925 | 0 | 3 | Weasel Words Writing and speaking are ways to inform and educate, and developing the talent to deliver a persuasive idea is a powerful skill. Sadly, like weapons of mass destruction, weasel words can debase language for deception or personal gain. Although it may take practice to remove all weasel words from your vocabulary, it’s worth the effort to produce writing with integrity. The fewer weasel words you use, the stronger your writing will be. Using search remove most instances using * Had * That * A bit * Almost * Basically * Can or Could * Fairly * In a sense * Just * May / Might * Moderately * Often * Quite * Rather * Relatively * Seem(s) * Some or many * Somehow * Somewhat * Usually * most * many * various * some * a lot * several * few * often * probably * huge * tiny * very * fairly * extremely * exceedingly * quite * remarkably * surprisingly * mostly * largely * is a number * are a number * excellent * interestingly * significantly * substantially * clearly * vast * relatively * completely * literally * not rocket science * outside the box * expert * experts * helps * reportedly * arguably * linked to * supports * useful * better * improved * gains * acts * works * effective * efficient * seems * appears * looks * is like * virtually * lots * almost * could * combats * felt * heard * saw * knew * realized * realised * wanted * thought * noticed * seemed * decided * looked * understood * considered * believed * appeared * watched * smelled * touched * wondered * recognized * recognised * wished * supposed * about * just * really * started * began * all * again * that * so * then * rather * only * like * close * even * somehow * sort * pretty * well * back * up * down * anyway * real * already * own * over * ever * be able to * still * bit * far * also * enough * might | Here's my quick rule of thumb for a lot of passive voice fixes: change the progressive tense to the present tense or past tense. Especially the use of verbs that for states of being. For example: "The boy was running" becomes "The Boy Ran"; "She was watching the movie" becomes "She watched the movie"; "I am hitting the ground" becomes "I hit the ground." Often, the progressive tense has excess verbiage because the use of "was, being, et al." is implied by the action. You exist, so obviously you "were". I've found that a lot of passive voice critiques center around this issue. Look for the use of states of being verbs and progressive tense, and it will dramatically reduce your use of passive voice. And remember, sometimes passive voice is useful when you want to indicate that something is being done to something else. Just make sure it's in moderation and used as appropriately as possible. | 0 | 8,017 | 3,000 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu40nho | iu4bk8e | 1,666,958,349 | 1,666,963,925 | 1 | 3 | Brevity | Here's my quick rule of thumb for a lot of passive voice fixes: change the progressive tense to the present tense or past tense. Especially the use of verbs that for states of being. For example: "The boy was running" becomes "The Boy Ran"; "She was watching the movie" becomes "She watched the movie"; "I am hitting the ground" becomes "I hit the ground." Often, the progressive tense has excess verbiage because the use of "was, being, et al." is implied by the action. You exist, so obviously you "were". I've found that a lot of passive voice critiques center around this issue. Look for the use of states of being verbs and progressive tense, and it will dramatically reduce your use of passive voice. And remember, sometimes passive voice is useful when you want to indicate that something is being done to something else. Just make sure it's in moderation and used as appropriately as possible. | 0 | 5,576 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu43vz7 | iu4bk8e | 1,666,960,172 | 1,666,963,925 | 1 | 3 | Honestly, if you're having problems with this just do an editing pass specifically to change passive to active voice. Keep it in mind while writing but if it is really a problem at least be aware that you'll fix it later (which also helps you be aware of it in the moment you're writing since you know you'll have to do more work after the draft is done) | Here's my quick rule of thumb for a lot of passive voice fixes: change the progressive tense to the present tense or past tense. Especially the use of verbs that for states of being. For example: "The boy was running" becomes "The Boy Ran"; "She was watching the movie" becomes "She watched the movie"; "I am hitting the ground" becomes "I hit the ground." Often, the progressive tense has excess verbiage because the use of "was, being, et al." is implied by the action. You exist, so obviously you "were". I've found that a lot of passive voice critiques center around this issue. Look for the use of states of being verbs and progressive tense, and it will dramatically reduce your use of passive voice. And remember, sometimes passive voice is useful when you want to indicate that something is being done to something else. Just make sure it's in moderation and used as appropriately as possible. | 0 | 3,753 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4bk8e | iu48u7q | 1,666,963,925 | 1,666,962,660 | 3 | 1 | Here's my quick rule of thumb for a lot of passive voice fixes: change the progressive tense to the present tense or past tense. Especially the use of verbs that for states of being. For example: "The boy was running" becomes "The Boy Ran"; "She was watching the movie" becomes "She watched the movie"; "I am hitting the ground" becomes "I hit the ground." Often, the progressive tense has excess verbiage because the use of "was, being, et al." is implied by the action. You exist, so obviously you "were". I've found that a lot of passive voice critiques center around this issue. Look for the use of states of being verbs and progressive tense, and it will dramatically reduce your use of passive voice. And remember, sometimes passive voice is useful when you want to indicate that something is being done to something else. Just make sure it's in moderation and used as appropriately as possible. | I'm not an essay writer, but I thought that the field preferred passive voice for essays. Still, getting rid of passive voice doesn't suddenly make things more simple or straightforward. You might want to ask someone in the field and try to clarify if getting rid of passive voice is actually what they want. | 1 | 1,265 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4hfwo | iu3qhil | 1,666,966,521 | 1,666,951,391 | 3 | 1 | Sounds like you are asking for professional writing specifically, not writing a novel. I'll answer on that assumption anyways. When you write a sentence, imagine how your coworker that always wants to look impressive for management would explain their accomplishments. >"I met with XYZ customer, and after I showed them how much their portfolio could have grown with our management, they agreed to move half their accounts to us." Now imagine how you or a coworker would say it if the meeting had gone badly and you lost the account. >"At the meeting with XYZ, they mentioned some factors that were disapppointing. As such, the account will be transferring out." This works for novels too, but I'd give different advice that might help you develop the narration style at the same time. | Passive voice sentences typically run longer than active voice sentences. Tom threw the ball. The ball was thrown by Tom. You are aiming for writing that is simpler and more concise anyway so do an editing pass with the goal of shortening your sentences. | 1 | 15,130 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4hfwo | iu3vu0u | 1,666,966,521 | 1,666,955,359 | 3 | 1 | Sounds like you are asking for professional writing specifically, not writing a novel. I'll answer on that assumption anyways. When you write a sentence, imagine how your coworker that always wants to look impressive for management would explain their accomplishments. >"I met with XYZ customer, and after I showed them how much their portfolio could have grown with our management, they agreed to move half their accounts to us." Now imagine how you or a coworker would say it if the meeting had gone badly and you lost the account. >"At the meeting with XYZ, they mentioned some factors that were disapppointing. As such, the account will be transferring out." This works for novels too, but I'd give different advice that might help you develop the narration style at the same time. | Are you sure the issue is passive voice and not a matter of them wanting you to write in a more formal/academic tone? Here are two pages I found that might help with writing essays. | 1 | 11,162 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4hfwo | iu3wo2a | 1,666,966,521 | 1,666,955,908 | 3 | 0 | Sounds like you are asking for professional writing specifically, not writing a novel. I'll answer on that assumption anyways. When you write a sentence, imagine how your coworker that always wants to look impressive for management would explain their accomplishments. >"I met with XYZ customer, and after I showed them how much their portfolio could have grown with our management, they agreed to move half their accounts to us." Now imagine how you or a coworker would say it if the meeting had gone badly and you lost the account. >"At the meeting with XYZ, they mentioned some factors that were disapppointing. As such, the account will be transferring out." This works for novels too, but I'd give different advice that might help you develop the narration style at the same time. | Weasel Words Writing and speaking are ways to inform and educate, and developing the talent to deliver a persuasive idea is a powerful skill. Sadly, like weapons of mass destruction, weasel words can debase language for deception or personal gain. Although it may take practice to remove all weasel words from your vocabulary, it’s worth the effort to produce writing with integrity. The fewer weasel words you use, the stronger your writing will be. Using search remove most instances using * Had * That * A bit * Almost * Basically * Can or Could * Fairly * In a sense * Just * May / Might * Moderately * Often * Quite * Rather * Relatively * Seem(s) * Some or many * Somehow * Somewhat * Usually * most * many * various * some * a lot * several * few * often * probably * huge * tiny * very * fairly * extremely * exceedingly * quite * remarkably * surprisingly * mostly * largely * is a number * are a number * excellent * interestingly * significantly * substantially * clearly * vast * relatively * completely * literally * not rocket science * outside the box * expert * experts * helps * reportedly * arguably * linked to * supports * useful * better * improved * gains * acts * works * effective * efficient * seems * appears * looks * is like * virtually * lots * almost * could * combats * felt * heard * saw * knew * realized * realised * wanted * thought * noticed * seemed * decided * looked * understood * considered * believed * appeared * watched * smelled * touched * wondered * recognized * recognised * wished * supposed * about * just * really * started * began * all * again * that * so * then * rather * only * like * close * even * somehow * sort * pretty * well * back * up * down * anyway * real * already * own * over * ever * be able to * still * bit * far * also * enough * might | 1 | 10,613 | 3,000 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu40nho | iu4hfwo | 1,666,958,349 | 1,666,966,521 | 1 | 3 | Brevity | Sounds like you are asking for professional writing specifically, not writing a novel. I'll answer on that assumption anyways. When you write a sentence, imagine how your coworker that always wants to look impressive for management would explain their accomplishments. >"I met with XYZ customer, and after I showed them how much their portfolio could have grown with our management, they agreed to move half their accounts to us." Now imagine how you or a coworker would say it if the meeting had gone badly and you lost the account. >"At the meeting with XYZ, they mentioned some factors that were disapppointing. As such, the account will be transferring out." This works for novels too, but I'd give different advice that might help you develop the narration style at the same time. | 0 | 8,172 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4hfwo | iu43vz7 | 1,666,966,521 | 1,666,960,172 | 3 | 1 | Sounds like you are asking for professional writing specifically, not writing a novel. I'll answer on that assumption anyways. When you write a sentence, imagine how your coworker that always wants to look impressive for management would explain their accomplishments. >"I met with XYZ customer, and after I showed them how much their portfolio could have grown with our management, they agreed to move half their accounts to us." Now imagine how you or a coworker would say it if the meeting had gone badly and you lost the account. >"At the meeting with XYZ, they mentioned some factors that were disapppointing. As such, the account will be transferring out." This works for novels too, but I'd give different advice that might help you develop the narration style at the same time. | Honestly, if you're having problems with this just do an editing pass specifically to change passive to active voice. Keep it in mind while writing but if it is really a problem at least be aware that you'll fix it later (which also helps you be aware of it in the moment you're writing since you know you'll have to do more work after the draft is done) | 1 | 6,349 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4hfwo | iu48u7q | 1,666,966,521 | 1,666,962,660 | 3 | 1 | Sounds like you are asking for professional writing specifically, not writing a novel. I'll answer on that assumption anyways. When you write a sentence, imagine how your coworker that always wants to look impressive for management would explain their accomplishments. >"I met with XYZ customer, and after I showed them how much their portfolio could have grown with our management, they agreed to move half their accounts to us." Now imagine how you or a coworker would say it if the meeting had gone badly and you lost the account. >"At the meeting with XYZ, they mentioned some factors that were disapppointing. As such, the account will be transferring out." This works for novels too, but I'd give different advice that might help you develop the narration style at the same time. | I'm not an essay writer, but I thought that the field preferred passive voice for essays. Still, getting rid of passive voice doesn't suddenly make things more simple or straightforward. You might want to ask someone in the field and try to clarify if getting rid of passive voice is actually what they want. | 1 | 3,861 | 3 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4hg6g | iu3qhil | 1,666,966,524 | 1,666,951,391 | 2 | 1 | There's a book called Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace that's pretty good on this topic. They boil it down to readers generally preferring when the "main characters" of whatever they're reading are frequently used as subjects, and those characters' "main actions" are used as verbs. Essentially, starting clauses with important (and as often as possible, human) characters gives an easy foothold for your reader's imagination. A lot of more abstract/academic writing is less readable because it hides essential information deeper in the sentence. Compare a really simplified example: A: "The reason for the executive meeting was to discuss the new projects being undertaken by Ben and Susan." (academic style, less readable) B: "The executives met to discuss Ben and Susan's new projects." Sentence B gives readers "the executives" right away to serve as a foundation... very easy to imagine... then they are doing something concrete (meeting and discussing)... and then Ben and Susan show up, also relatable and human. Sentence A, on the other hand, forces readers to carry uncontextualized abstract information ("the reason") forward from the beginning of the sentence, until it gets contextualized and begins to make sense. It's forcing baggage on your readers, basically. And while this particular sentence isn't really hard to understand, this does wear on readers over time, especially when the ideas are more complex. So it's not that *active* is better than *passive* (though this advice does shake out that way a lot). It's more that you want to help your readers out by giving them real, relatable subjects to wrap their minds around, with strong relatable actions as verbs. Then they'll be better prepared to receive more information. In fiction this is especially important as you're usually not trying to create distance; normally you want MORE emotion, tension, drama, etc. As for learning it, IMO noticing it is the most important step. | Passive voice sentences typically run longer than active voice sentences. Tom threw the ball. The ball was thrown by Tom. You are aiming for writing that is simpler and more concise anyway so do an editing pass with the goal of shortening your sentences. | 1 | 15,133 | 2 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu3vu0u | iu4hg6g | 1,666,955,359 | 1,666,966,524 | 1 | 2 | Are you sure the issue is passive voice and not a matter of them wanting you to write in a more formal/academic tone? Here are two pages I found that might help with writing essays. | There's a book called Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace that's pretty good on this topic. They boil it down to readers generally preferring when the "main characters" of whatever they're reading are frequently used as subjects, and those characters' "main actions" are used as verbs. Essentially, starting clauses with important (and as often as possible, human) characters gives an easy foothold for your reader's imagination. A lot of more abstract/academic writing is less readable because it hides essential information deeper in the sentence. Compare a really simplified example: A: "The reason for the executive meeting was to discuss the new projects being undertaken by Ben and Susan." (academic style, less readable) B: "The executives met to discuss Ben and Susan's new projects." Sentence B gives readers "the executives" right away to serve as a foundation... very easy to imagine... then they are doing something concrete (meeting and discussing)... and then Ben and Susan show up, also relatable and human. Sentence A, on the other hand, forces readers to carry uncontextualized abstract information ("the reason") forward from the beginning of the sentence, until it gets contextualized and begins to make sense. It's forcing baggage on your readers, basically. And while this particular sentence isn't really hard to understand, this does wear on readers over time, especially when the ideas are more complex. So it's not that *active* is better than *passive* (though this advice does shake out that way a lot). It's more that you want to help your readers out by giving them real, relatable subjects to wrap their minds around, with strong relatable actions as verbs. Then they'll be better prepared to receive more information. In fiction this is especially important as you're usually not trying to create distance; normally you want MORE emotion, tension, drama, etc. As for learning it, IMO noticing it is the most important step. | 0 | 11,165 | 2 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu3wo2a | iu4hg6g | 1,666,955,908 | 1,666,966,524 | 0 | 2 | Weasel Words Writing and speaking are ways to inform and educate, and developing the talent to deliver a persuasive idea is a powerful skill. Sadly, like weapons of mass destruction, weasel words can debase language for deception or personal gain. Although it may take practice to remove all weasel words from your vocabulary, it’s worth the effort to produce writing with integrity. The fewer weasel words you use, the stronger your writing will be. Using search remove most instances using * Had * That * A bit * Almost * Basically * Can or Could * Fairly * In a sense * Just * May / Might * Moderately * Often * Quite * Rather * Relatively * Seem(s) * Some or many * Somehow * Somewhat * Usually * most * many * various * some * a lot * several * few * often * probably * huge * tiny * very * fairly * extremely * exceedingly * quite * remarkably * surprisingly * mostly * largely * is a number * are a number * excellent * interestingly * significantly * substantially * clearly * vast * relatively * completely * literally * not rocket science * outside the box * expert * experts * helps * reportedly * arguably * linked to * supports * useful * better * improved * gains * acts * works * effective * efficient * seems * appears * looks * is like * virtually * lots * almost * could * combats * felt * heard * saw * knew * realized * realised * wanted * thought * noticed * seemed * decided * looked * understood * considered * believed * appeared * watched * smelled * touched * wondered * recognized * recognised * wished * supposed * about * just * really * started * began * all * again * that * so * then * rather * only * like * close * even * somehow * sort * pretty * well * back * up * down * anyway * real * already * own * over * ever * be able to * still * bit * far * also * enough * might | There's a book called Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace that's pretty good on this topic. They boil it down to readers generally preferring when the "main characters" of whatever they're reading are frequently used as subjects, and those characters' "main actions" are used as verbs. Essentially, starting clauses with important (and as often as possible, human) characters gives an easy foothold for your reader's imagination. A lot of more abstract/academic writing is less readable because it hides essential information deeper in the sentence. Compare a really simplified example: A: "The reason for the executive meeting was to discuss the new projects being undertaken by Ben and Susan." (academic style, less readable) B: "The executives met to discuss Ben and Susan's new projects." Sentence B gives readers "the executives" right away to serve as a foundation... very easy to imagine... then they are doing something concrete (meeting and discussing)... and then Ben and Susan show up, also relatable and human. Sentence A, on the other hand, forces readers to carry uncontextualized abstract information ("the reason") forward from the beginning of the sentence, until it gets contextualized and begins to make sense. It's forcing baggage on your readers, basically. And while this particular sentence isn't really hard to understand, this does wear on readers over time, especially when the ideas are more complex. So it's not that *active* is better than *passive* (though this advice does shake out that way a lot). It's more that you want to help your readers out by giving them real, relatable subjects to wrap their minds around, with strong relatable actions as verbs. Then they'll be better prepared to receive more information. In fiction this is especially important as you're usually not trying to create distance; normally you want MORE emotion, tension, drama, etc. As for learning it, IMO noticing it is the most important step. | 0 | 10,616 | 2,000 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu40nho | iu4hg6g | 1,666,958,349 | 1,666,966,524 | 1 | 2 | Brevity | There's a book called Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace that's pretty good on this topic. They boil it down to readers generally preferring when the "main characters" of whatever they're reading are frequently used as subjects, and those characters' "main actions" are used as verbs. Essentially, starting clauses with important (and as often as possible, human) characters gives an easy foothold for your reader's imagination. A lot of more abstract/academic writing is less readable because it hides essential information deeper in the sentence. Compare a really simplified example: A: "The reason for the executive meeting was to discuss the new projects being undertaken by Ben and Susan." (academic style, less readable) B: "The executives met to discuss Ben and Susan's new projects." Sentence B gives readers "the executives" right away to serve as a foundation... very easy to imagine... then they are doing something concrete (meeting and discussing)... and then Ben and Susan show up, also relatable and human. Sentence A, on the other hand, forces readers to carry uncontextualized abstract information ("the reason") forward from the beginning of the sentence, until it gets contextualized and begins to make sense. It's forcing baggage on your readers, basically. And while this particular sentence isn't really hard to understand, this does wear on readers over time, especially when the ideas are more complex. So it's not that *active* is better than *passive* (though this advice does shake out that way a lot). It's more that you want to help your readers out by giving them real, relatable subjects to wrap their minds around, with strong relatable actions as verbs. Then they'll be better prepared to receive more information. In fiction this is especially important as you're usually not trying to create distance; normally you want MORE emotion, tension, drama, etc. As for learning it, IMO noticing it is the most important step. | 0 | 8,175 | 2 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu4hg6g | iu43vz7 | 1,666,966,524 | 1,666,960,172 | 2 | 1 | There's a book called Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace that's pretty good on this topic. They boil it down to readers generally preferring when the "main characters" of whatever they're reading are frequently used as subjects, and those characters' "main actions" are used as verbs. Essentially, starting clauses with important (and as often as possible, human) characters gives an easy foothold for your reader's imagination. A lot of more abstract/academic writing is less readable because it hides essential information deeper in the sentence. Compare a really simplified example: A: "The reason for the executive meeting was to discuss the new projects being undertaken by Ben and Susan." (academic style, less readable) B: "The executives met to discuss Ben and Susan's new projects." Sentence B gives readers "the executives" right away to serve as a foundation... very easy to imagine... then they are doing something concrete (meeting and discussing)... and then Ben and Susan show up, also relatable and human. Sentence A, on the other hand, forces readers to carry uncontextualized abstract information ("the reason") forward from the beginning of the sentence, until it gets contextualized and begins to make sense. It's forcing baggage on your readers, basically. And while this particular sentence isn't really hard to understand, this does wear on readers over time, especially when the ideas are more complex. So it's not that *active* is better than *passive* (though this advice does shake out that way a lot). It's more that you want to help your readers out by giving them real, relatable subjects to wrap their minds around, with strong relatable actions as verbs. Then they'll be better prepared to receive more information. In fiction this is especially important as you're usually not trying to create distance; normally you want MORE emotion, tension, drama, etc. As for learning it, IMO noticing it is the most important step. | Honestly, if you're having problems with this just do an editing pass specifically to change passive to active voice. Keep it in mind while writing but if it is really a problem at least be aware that you'll fix it later (which also helps you be aware of it in the moment you're writing since you know you'll have to do more work after the draft is done) | 1 | 6,352 | 2 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu48u7q | iu4hg6g | 1,666,962,660 | 1,666,966,524 | 1 | 2 | I'm not an essay writer, but I thought that the field preferred passive voice for essays. Still, getting rid of passive voice doesn't suddenly make things more simple or straightforward. You might want to ask someone in the field and try to clarify if getting rid of passive voice is actually what they want. | There's a book called Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace that's pretty good on this topic. They boil it down to readers generally preferring when the "main characters" of whatever they're reading are frequently used as subjects, and those characters' "main actions" are used as verbs. Essentially, starting clauses with important (and as often as possible, human) characters gives an easy foothold for your reader's imagination. A lot of more abstract/academic writing is less readable because it hides essential information deeper in the sentence. Compare a really simplified example: A: "The reason for the executive meeting was to discuss the new projects being undertaken by Ben and Susan." (academic style, less readable) B: "The executives met to discuss Ben and Susan's new projects." Sentence B gives readers "the executives" right away to serve as a foundation... very easy to imagine... then they are doing something concrete (meeting and discussing)... and then Ben and Susan show up, also relatable and human. Sentence A, on the other hand, forces readers to carry uncontextualized abstract information ("the reason") forward from the beginning of the sentence, until it gets contextualized and begins to make sense. It's forcing baggage on your readers, basically. And while this particular sentence isn't really hard to understand, this does wear on readers over time, especially when the ideas are more complex. So it's not that *active* is better than *passive* (though this advice does shake out that way a lot). It's more that you want to help your readers out by giving them real, relatable subjects to wrap their minds around, with strong relatable actions as verbs. Then they'll be better prepared to receive more information. In fiction this is especially important as you're usually not trying to create distance; normally you want MORE emotion, tension, drama, etc. As for learning it, IMO noticing it is the most important step. | 0 | 3,864 | 2 | ||
yfeen0 | writing_train | 0.89 | How to stop using the passive voice? Hi everyone. I've been ruminating and I realised that one of the biggest weaknesses of my essays was the grammar. Specifically the overuse of the passive voice. I'm in the health field, and the style they want is more simple, direct, concise and straightforward. I'm the opposite. I was wondering what I could do to break this habit and actually write more in active voice. I have Grammarly and whilst that's great for making my sentences easier to understand and less wordy, it doesn't do much with my passive voice. Any advice is much appreciated, thanks :) | iu3qhil | iu56bdg | 1,666,951,391 | 1,666,976,567 | 1 | 2 | Passive voice sentences typically run longer than active voice sentences. Tom threw the ball. The ball was thrown by Tom. You are aiming for writing that is simpler and more concise anyway so do an editing pass with the goal of shortening your sentences. | I struggled with it for a while, too. The best explanation that made it click for me was the advice to think about it like analyzing a foreign language. The key to excising passive voice is identifying “to be” verbs that are being used passively to replace what could otherwise be active verbs. So when looking, I scan for to be verbs (was, is, be, being, etc.) and then see what’s happening in the sentence. So if I see a sentence that reads “the tattered banner was flapping eerily,” I know I can make it active by eliminating the “was.” “The tattered banner flapped eerily.” Basically, “to be” verbs signal the potential use of passive voice. If you see one in a sentence, ask yourself if you can replace it with a non to be verb, which might be quite apparent from the sentence structure. | 0 | 25,176 | 2 |
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